Military Review

Rifle battle cruisers. "Derflinger" against "Tager". H. 2

45
So, after a small lyrical digression on the subject of the Japanese battle cruisers, we return to the English shipbuilding, namely, to the circumstances of the creation of the Tiger, which became, so to speak, the “swan song” of the 343-mm British battle cruisers and the most perfect representative of them . And he was, according to the British, an extremely beautiful ship. As Moore wrote in the Years of Resistance:


“Speed ​​and beauty were tied together. The highest ideals of a harmonious and powerful ship owned artistic nature of its designer. Wherever the ship appeared, wherever it went, it pleased the sailor’s eye, and I know those who traveled miles just to admire the beauty of its lines. It was the last warship to meet the ideas of sailors about how a ship should look, and it brilliantly embodied this ideal. Beside him, other battleships looked like floating plants. Each of those who served on it, will remember the "Tiger" with pride and admiration for its beauty "




I must say that by the time the Tiger was being designed, the British gradually lost interest in the battlecruisers. Whatever John Arbetnot Fisher said about this, the weakness of the protection of these ships and the danger of opposing them to any ships with heavy guns became more and more obvious. Therefore, the shipbuilding program 1911 g provided for the construction of only one ship of this type, which was supposed to be created as an improved version of Queen Mary. However, the design of the Japanese "Congo" attracted the great interest of the British, if only because it was the first non-English warship armed with guns of a caliber over 305-mm.

Artillery

The same 343-mm / 45 tools that were installed on Queen Mary were used as the main caliber. When shooting heavy 635 kg shells were used, the initial velocity of which, apparently, reached 760 m / s. However, under the influence of the Congo, the British finally positioned the towers in a linearly elevated pattern. In this case, considered two options for the location of the main artillery caliber.



In one embodiment, by analogy with the "Congo", it was supposed to place a third tower between the boiler rooms and engine rooms. The second option involved the placement of aft towers nearby, by analogy with the bow. The first option was chosen, but you can only guess about the reasons. Most likely, the separation of the towers of the main caliber by a distance, which excludes their disruption by one projectile (as it happened with “Seidlits”), also played a role, and also, with such an arrangement of artillery, when firing directly into the stern, the impact of muzzle gases of the third towers on the fourth, obviously, minimized and generally negligible. Whatever it was, but the towers "Tiger" were placed on a "Congo" scheme.

Mine bombardment was also improved: the Tiger became the first British battle cruiser to receive the 152-mm gun. A series of battleships like the Iron Duke (also the first), which was being built simultaneously with the Tiger, was armed with the guns of the same caliber. I must say that on the mine side weapons heavy ships in England reigned confusion and reeling. D. Fisher believed that the smallest caliber would be enough for ships, relying on rate of fire. Officers, on the other hand, fleet legitimate doubts were already creeping in that one rate of fire would be enough. So, Admiral Mark Kerr proposed to use main caliber guns with shrapnel shells to repel the destroyers attacks, but subsequently changed his mind in favor of the 152 mm caliber based on the following considerations:

1. Despite the advantages of main-caliber guns when shooting at destroyers (this is also about centralized fire control), distracting them from the main goal in combat is unacceptable;

2. Water poles from falling 152-mm projectiles make it difficult for enemy artillery gunners to hurt and, possibly, destroy telescopic reticle;

3. The Japanese spoke extremely well of the "anti-mine" qualities of six-inch artillery;

4. All other countries creating dreadnoughts prefer a larger caliber than 102-mm.

As can be understood from the sources, the final decision was taken on 12 on April 1912 g, during a lengthy committee meeting of representatives from the artillery weapons department of the navy. In essence, it radically changed the concept of the anti-mine artillery of the British fleet.

Previously it was assumed that the ships should be installed as much as possible relatively small-caliber guns, and it would be quite normal to put them openly and not to protect them with armor. The main thing is not to keep the calculations constantly on these guns, they were supposed to be under the protection of armor and go out to the guns only when the threat of a torpedo attack arises. A large number of rapid-fire guns required numerous calculations, but here the British came to a “brilliant” conclusion - since during the artillery battle part of the open-standing mine artillery guns would be destroyed, then half of the staff of the crew would be enough to provide the remaining number of servants. In other words, the British battlecruisers, having 16 openly standing 102-mm, also had eight calculations for them.

However, now the situation has changed. First, the observation of the maneuvers of the Kaiser fleet convinced the British that the torpedo attack was now an indispensable element of the battle of the battleships. The point here, of course, is not so much the fact that the Kaiserlmarine was replenished with numerous high-speed destroyers (at speeds up to 32 knots), but that the Germans were constantly working out the tactics of using them in a battle of linear forces. This, coupled with the unimportant visibility conditions in the North Sea, led to the fact that the calculations could no longer be kept away from the guns, since a torpedo attack could be expected at any moment. The high speed of the new destroyers, coupled with the improved characteristics of the torpedoes, led to the fact that the calculations could simply not be in time for the guns. At the same time, the experience of the hostilities of the Russian-Japanese war irrefutably testified to the enormous losses of the settlements serving the guns that were not protected by armor.

As a result, it was decided to place fewer guns on ships (12 instead of 16), but at the same time place them in a protected dungeon and “equip” each gun with their own calculation (and not half the staff). It was assumed that this would not reduce the number of trunks in repelling a torpedo attack, since, obviously, the chances of surviving this attack on a protected gun are significantly higher than those who are standing openly. In addition, the reduction in the number of guns at least slightly offset the added weight from the installation of larger-caliber guns.

In addition to all the above reasons, it was taken into account that the 152-mm gun is the smallest artillery system in caliber, capable of hitting the attacker or stripping the torpedo attack with one liditnaya filling, if not sinking. . Strictly speaking, a six-inch projectile could actually cause such damage, although it did not guarantee this, but the shells of a smaller caliber had few chances to stop the destroyer “with one strike” at all.

Due to the above considerations, the Tiger received a dozen 152-mm / 45 Mk.VII guns that had separate loading and firing 45,4 kg shells with an initial speed of 773 m / s. The firing range was 79 cable. The ammunition included 200 projectiles per barrel, including 50 semi-armor and 150 high-explosive. Subsequently, however, it was reduced to 120 shells per gun, including 30 semi-armored, 72 high-explosive and 18 high-explosive tracer.

At the same time, as we said earlier, before the "Tiger" on the British battlecruisers, the mine artillery was located in the bow and stern superstructures, while the guns placed in the bow superstructure only on the "Queen Mary" received splinter protection (during construction), and the guns in the aft superstructure on all the cruisers stood open. On the Tiger, the 152-mm battery was housed in a protected casemate, the floor of which was the upper deck, and the ceiling was the forecastle deck.

On the one hand, one could say that the Tiger medium artillery was close in its capabilities to the 150-mm guns of German heavy ships, but this was not the case. The fact is that by installing six-inch guns and protecting them with armor “in the image and likeness” of the Germans, the British retained a very unsuccessful system of placing artillery grabs and supplying ammunition to them. The fact is that the Germans distributed artillery cellars of 150-mm cannons on their ships in such a way that the feed mechanism from one cellar provided with projectiles and charges one, maximum two 150-mm guns. At the same time, the British concentrated 152-mm artillery grabs in the bow and stern of the ship, from where they were fed into special corridors for the supply of ammunition, and already there, overloaded to special elevators and suspended arbors, were fed to the guns. The danger of such a design is “excellent” demonstrated by the German armored cruiser “Blucher”, which lost nearly half of its combat capability after a single large-caliber British projectile hit the corridor (although the Germans moved 210-mm projectiles of the main caliber and charges to it).

"Tiger" received two 76,2-mm anti-aircraft guns during construction, in addition, there were four more 47-mm cannons on the battle cruiser, but the torpedo armament was doubled - instead of two 533-mm torpedo tubes on the previous Tiger line cruisers four such devices with ammunition in 20 torpedoes.

Reservation



As we said earlier, the booking of two battlecruisers of the “Lion” type and the third - “Queen Mary” had no fundamental differences and, in general, repeated each other. However, the Japanese when creating the "Congo" went to the introduction of three fundamental innovations, which were not on the British battle cruisers:

1. Armored casemate for anti-mine guns;

2. A strip of 76-mm armor under the main armor belt, protecting the ship from hitting “diving” projectiles (that is, those that fell into the water at the ship’s side and, passing under water, hit it in the side below the armor belt);

3. The increased area of ​​the main armored belt, thanks to which he defended not only the engine and boiler rooms, but also the feeding pipes and the cellar of the ammunition of the towers of the main caliber. The price for this was a reduction in the thickness of the armored belt from 229 to 203 mm.

The British themselves believed that the Congo’s body armor was superior to that of the Lion, but at the same time only two Japanese out of three were introduced to the Tiger. We have already spoken about the appearance of the last 343-mm British casebreaker for 152-mm guns above, and besides, 76 mm underwater protection was introduced on it, and it looked like that. At Lion, with a normal displacement of 229 mm, the armor belt was immersed in water on 0,91 m. At Tiger, only on 0,69 m, but then it was located below 76 mm of armor belt (or should it be written here - depth?) 1,15 m, and he covered not only the engine and boiler rooms, but also the areas of the towers of the main caliber. In general, such a belt looked like a very reasonable solution, increasing the security of the ship.

But alas, the main innovation of Japanese shipbuilders, namely the extension of the length of the citadel to the towers of the main caliber, even if this led to a certain decrease in its thickness, was ignored by the British. On the one hand, they could be understood, because even 229 mm, in general, gave more or less good protection only against 280-mm shells and, to a limited extent, against 305-mm, but on the other hand, the rejection of the Japanese scheme led to the fact that only the 127 mm armored plates protected the board in the areas of the supply pipes and the cellars of the ammunition. Considering the fact that the barbers of the Tiger’s main-caliber towers had a 203-229 mm thickness only above the armor-protected side, the supply pipes were protected by 127 mm armor and 76 mm barbet from enemy projectiles.

On the one hand, it seems that, in aggregate, such protection had the same 203 mm of armor, but in fact it was not so, because the spaced armor loses monolithic by its “arm tightness” (until a certain thickness is reached, approximately 305 mm. German 280- mm shell, hitting the area of ​​the board, playfully punched 127-mm armor plate and even if it would have exploded after being hit in barbet, it would still be the total energy of the explosion and impact that broke it, filling the flow tube with hot gases, flame, shell fragments and breached by him In other words, at the main combat distances (70-75 kBT), the barbets of the Tiger main caliber towers, it can be said, did not have protection from any German heavy projectiles. In this respect, the Tiger’s defense was compared with the booking of Lion and Queen Mary. The only difference between them was that the front turrets of these cruisers had slightly better protection (127-152 mm) and aft ones slightly worse (102 mm), but everywhere there was only 76 mm barbet and the Tiger’s ammunition cellars were no less are vulnerable than his predecessors 343-mm.

Other vertical armor "Tiger", in general, is very little different from that of the "Queen Mary". We only note that the total length of the armor belt on the waterline (including the 127 mm and 102 mm sections) is higher for Tiger - only the very “tips” of the bow and the stern (9,2 m and 7,9 m, respectively) are left unprotected. The casemate had 152 mm protection, the 102-mm was traversed in the stern, and the 127-mm armor belt of the same height went to the barbet of the first tower. From here, the 127-mm armor plates were located at an angle, converging on the nose edge of the barbet of the first tower, facing in the nose. The towers appeared to have the same protection as Queen Mary, that is, 229 mm front and side plates, 203 mm rear plate and roof 82-108 mm thick, on the back bevels - 64 mm. Some sources indicate the thickness of the roof 64-82 mm, but this is doubtful, because it is completely unclear why the British would weaken the protection of the main weapon of the ship. The conning tower had the same 254 mm body armor, but the rear control room of the torpedo firing located in the aft received a reinforcement - 152-mm armor instead of 76 mm. Artillery cellars along the sides were covered with screens up to 64 mm thick.

Unfortunately, the author of this article does not have a somewhat detailed description of the Tiger's horizontal reservation, but based on the available data it looks like this - there was an armored deck within the armored side, which had the same thickness on the bevel and on the bevel 25,4 mm. Only outside of the armored side of the nose, the thickness of the armor was increased to 76 mm.

3 decks were located above the armored decks, including the forecastle deck. The latter had a thickness of 25.4 mm, and only above the casemates had a thickening of 38 mm (while only the casemate's roof had such thickness, but in the direction from it to the ship’s diametral plane the thickness of the deck decreased to 25,4 mm). The main deck also had a 25,4 mm thickness along its entire length and a thickening up to 38 mm in the area of ​​the casemates, on the same principle as the forecastle. The thickness of the third deck is unknown and, most likely, insignificant.

Power plant

Machines and boilers "Tiger" differed from those of the "Lion" and "Queen Mary." On previous British steam ships, 42 boilers were provided, grouped into seven boiler compartments, then on Tiger there were 36 boilers in five compartments, so that the length of Tiger’s engine rooms was even slightly lower than Lyon - 53,5 m against 57,8 m respectively.

The power rating of the power plant continued to grow - from 70 000 hp Lion and 75 000 HP “Queen Mary” now has up to 85 000 HP It was assumed that, with such power, the Tiger would develop 28 nodes with guarantee, and when forcing boilers to 108 000, the HP - 30 nodes. Alas, these hopes were only partially fulfilled - on tests, the battle cruiser “overclocked” the boilers to the 91 103 hp without an afterburner. and developed the 28,34 node, but when forcing it reached a slightly lower power 104 635 hp, while its speed was only 29,07 nodes. Obviously, if even the Tiger machines in the afterburner would reach 108 thou. Hp, then in this case the ship could not develop 30 units.

The stock of fuel in the normal displacement was 100 tons less than that of Queen Mary and was 900 tons, including 450 tons of coal and 450 tons of oil. The maximum fuel supply was 3320 tons of coal and 3480 tons of oil, which significantly exceeded those of Lyon (3 500 tons of coal and 1 135 tons of oil). Despite such significant reserves, the range on 12 nodes (even calculated!) Did not exceed 5 200 miles on 12 nodes, which was associated with increased fuel consumption on the "Tiger".

What can you say about the Tiger battle cruiser project? In fact, the British turned out to be even more fast (who would doubt?), An equally heavily armed and very beautiful battlecruiser.



It is usually stated that the "Tiger" had more solid armor protection than previous projects of British ships of the same class, but we see that in fact it differed very little from them and did not guarantee acceptable protection even against 280-mm German projectiles. Let's take a look at the Tiger weight report (the corresponding Queen Queen figures are shown in parentheses):

Hull and ship systems - 9 770 (9 760) t;

Reservations - 7 390 (6 995) t;

Power installation - 5 900 (5 460) t;

Armament with towers - 3 600 (3 380) t;

Fuel - 900 (1 000) t;

Team and provisions - 840 (805) t;

Displacement stock - 100 (100) t;

Total displacement - 28 500 (27 100) t.

In effect, the increase in armor mass (on the 395 t) was spent mainly on the additional “underwater” 76 mm belt and casemate.

What can be said about the latest British 343-mm battle cruiser? It can be stated that the nickname “a wonderful mistake”, which in future will be awarded to Italian sailors, the heavy cruiser Bolzano, suits the Tiger no less.

At the time of the design of the Tiger, the British already had the opportunity to familiarize themselves with the drawings of the German Seydlitz battle cruiser and understood that the German ships opposing them carried a much stronger defense than was previously thought. The British also understood the inadequacy of booking their own battle cruisers. When designing the Tiger, the British had the opportunity to build an even larger ship than before, that is, they had a displacement reserve that could be spent on something useful. But instead of at least significantly enhancing the vertical or horizontal booking of the ship, the British took the path of improving, albeit, important, but still minor, elements. They added half of the speed knot, increased the caliber of mine artillery and defended it with armor, added torpedo tubes ... In general, we can say with good reason that when creating the Tiger, the British design and military thought gave a clear failure and finally turned off from a reasonable ways to develop a class of battle cruisers.

Продолжение следует ...
Author:
Articles from this series:
Battle Cruiser: Fon der Tann vs Indefatigeble
Battle Cruiser: Fon der Tann vs Indefatigeble. H.2
Line Cruiser Rivalry: Moltke vs. Lion
Line Cruiser Rivalry: Moltke vs. Lion. H. 2
Line Cruiser Rivalry: Moltke vs. Lion. H. 3
Rifle battle cruisers. "Seidlits" vs "Queen Mary"
Line Cruiser Rivalry: Derflinger vs. Tiger
Congo-class battlecruisers
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  1. TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 16 May 2018 15: 30
    +7
    It is unfortunate that the British wrote it off in 1934. It would be great for them in World War II. Moreover, it could be capitalized on the model of Rinaun.
    1. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 16 May 2018 15: 44
      +7
      Quote: TermNachTER
      It is unfortunate that the British wrote it off in 1934. It would be great for them in World War II. Moreover, it could be capitalized on the model of Rinauna


      He could share the fate of Hood when meeting with Bismarck. For outdated battlecruisers, a meeting with 380 mm "beater" - threatened with a fatal outcome, due to extremely insufficient horizontal booking.
      1. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 16 May 2018 16: 32
        +2
        Rinawn successfully conquered the whole war and decommissioned in 1948 year. It is believed that the death of Hood is just an accident. So you can argue
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          16 May 2018 17: 12
          +8
          Quote: TermNachTER
          Rinawn successfully conquered the whole war and was decommissioned in 1948.

          But he didn’t meet with Bismarck :)))) But if Tiger met with at least one of the ShiG, all the advantages would be for ShiG.
          Quote: TermNachTER
          It is believed that the death of Hood is just an accident.

          Most likely it is. Well, the death of "Tiger" would not be random :))))))
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 16 May 2018 17: 16
            +5
            Well, so with "Bismarck" not all met, did not have time. Very quickly sank. “Scharnhorst” is the same as somehow not very lucky. He met with Duke of York. “Rinaun” by the way met with the “twins” and they scrambled from him, with terrible force. Admiral Whitworth was very upset
            1. seti
              seti 16 May 2018 21: 28
              +2
              Quote: TermNachTER
              Well, so with "Bismarck" not all met, did not have time. Very quickly sank. “Scharnhorst” is the same as somehow not very lucky. He met with Duke of York. “Rinaun” by the way met with the “twins” and they scrambled from him, with terrible force. Admiral Whitworth was very upset

              Well, I would argue with that. They didn’t scamper because they were so scared of him, but because there was a categorical order of the Führer to not engage in battle with the British heavy ships. Yes, and this was not the task - they went to sea after another. They planned to rearm on 6-380 mm guns each instead of 9-280 mm. Then I would have looked who would have been a khan and who would have dangled from whom and the old man Rinaun would have had chances.
              1. TermNachTer
                TermNachTer 16 May 2018 22: 18
                +5
                We are not talking about what could be. And about what happened. Very often, German admirals explained their unwillingness to fight by categorical orders of the Fuhrer. In general, the generals, too.
                1. Snakebyte
                  Snakebyte 17 May 2018 08: 22
                  +1
                  Wow, the typical content of the memoirs of a German commander is expressed by the phrase "How Hitler prevented me from winning the war."
            2. DimerVladimer
              DimerVladimer 17 May 2018 08: 30
              +1
              Quote: TermNachTER
              He met with Duke of York. “Rinaun” by the way met with the “twins” and they scrambled from him, with terrible force. Admiral Whitworth was very upset


              The Duke of York is a serious ship, its vertical reservation surpasses that of its contemporaries.
              Reservation of King George V type battleships was a further development of the All-or-Nothing booking scheme, which was first used in the Royal Navy by Nelson-class battleships [35]. However, in comparison with the Nelsons, the reservation had very significant differences. A study in the 1930s of the Nelson reservation scheme showed that under certain conditions a projectile could go inside a ship without meeting an inclined armor belt and explode in a cellar or engine room.

              On the type “King George V”, the armor belt was located outside the casing. Its length was 126,5 meters or 56% of the length of the waterline. He completely covered the artillery cellars and the engine room, especially taking into account the fact that behind the citadel there were sections of the belt of a slightly smaller thickness, which covered the artillery cellar from hitting on sharp course angles. The height of the belt was 7,16 meters, and with a standard displacement, the belt went under water by 2,6 meters.
              At the same time, "King George V" had the highest armor belt of all contemporaries.
              In the 30s of the XX century, the British managed to significantly improve the quality of their armor, which since the end of the First World War was considered the best in the world. A decrease in carbon content increased the viscosity of the material with a slight decrease in hardness. A thick hard hardened layer increased the chance to crack a shell (preventing an explosion inside the ship was considered a more important factor than ensuring the penetration of belt armor). British armor was of very high quality and surpassed the modern American equivalent (armor "class A") and German in resistance by 15-20%. The belt was designed to withstand 381 mm caliber shells at distances of 12 for cellars and 300 meters for a power plant. Its thickness ranged from 14 mm in the cellar area to 300 mm in the engine room area. Plates of the lower row wedge-shaped thinned to 381 and 356 mm, respectively. The belt was closed by traverses, the thickness of which varied from 140 to 114 mm above the armored deck, up to 254 mm below it. Thick armor covered 305% of the length of the ship, which exceeded the performance of all contemporaries except the German ones.

              The main armored deck was superimposed on the upper edge of the armor belt and covered the entire space of the citadel, with a thickness of 127 mm above the engine room to 152 mm above the artillery cellars. The deck was supposed to withstand 381 mm shells at distances of 27–000 meters, respectively, and 31 kg of armor-piercing bombs dropped from 000–454 meters. Outside the citadel there was a lower armored deck, at the level of the junction of the middle and lower row of armored slabs of the belt. Its thickness ranged from 3200 to 4500 mm in the bow; in the stern, the thickness was 64 mm.
              1. TermNachTer
                TermNachTer 17 May 2018 19: 14
                0
                Well, Bismarck met with the Prince of Wales, and then a couple of days later with King George. But he was shot already in almost proving grounds, because everyone decided the “swordfish” with “Arc Royal”
          2. arturpraetor
            arturpraetor 16 May 2018 17: 50
            +3
            Strictly speaking, the Tiger would still have one very useful function, with proper modernization and maintenance, to catch any pickpockets and Hippers in raids. For example, if the same La Plata had “Tiger” instead of “Exeter” ... Come on, just “Tiger” versus “Spee” - the alignment would be completely against the Germans. Although, of course, this is a very narrow niche.
            1. yehat
              yehat 16 May 2018 23: 08
              +3
              The existence of Tiger and a number of other similar ships made the cruising war completely meaningless for Germany - all the Germans could do was use camouflaged ships far on the periphery.
              Also, “cats” seriously limited the maneuverability of the German fleet due to the fact that many ships could catch up.
              In general, strategically, their presence was in line with the doctrine of Britain.
              But the use in linear combat, tactics were clearly chosen by the British mistakenly.
        2. NF68
          NF68 16 May 2018 17: 41
          +3
          Quote: TermNachTER
          Rinawn successfully conquered the whole war and decommissioned in 1948 year. It is believed that the death of Hood is just an accident. So you can argue


          At this height, 305 mm. Huda Belts:



          for 380 mm. German armor-piercing projectile hit not in 305 mm. part of the belt, and not much higher where the thickness of the belt is only 177 mm. + 50 mm. or even higher where the belt thickness is 127 mm. + 50 mm. and then getting to the deck or to the barbet, was very high. Yes, and get under the lower edge of the belt, too. Bismarck and PU also had a drawback in the form of the absence of a thinned lower belt under the waterline. And the “Bismarck” and “PU” in the short-lived battle of 24 on May 1941 of the year exactly flew one GK shell, but fortunately for the crews of these battleships the German 380 mm. and English 381 mm. shells diving under the belt did not explode.
  2. DimerVladimer
    DimerVladimer 16 May 2018 15: 41
    +4
    A brilliant analysis of Tiger reservations - remains consistent with the conclusion of the author - Tiger is a step in place.

    Like most battlecruisers before him, the Tiger is significantly vulnerable to long-range combat for large-caliber shells, which will later on play its role in the death of Hood.


    I correctly noticed that within the "citadel" horizontal booking was 25 mm armored decks + 25 mm casemates? That is, a projectile with a large angle of incidence, had to pierce only 25,4 + 25,4 or 25,4 + 38 (above the casemate) or 76 mm in the bow, and in total only 25,4 remained in the stern?
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      16 May 2018 16: 00
      +4
      Most likely it was like that - 25,4 mm of the forecastle deck + 25,4 mm armored and between them - a few more millimeters of the upper deck. If the projectile fell along the ship close to the side, then 38 mm of the casemate roof + 38 mm of the casemate deck + 25,4 mm of the bevel of the armored deck, but this is a very, very narrow strip along the side of the ship to get the shell into it, you have to try very hard.
      And the rest - I think you're right.
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      Brilliant Tiger reservation analysis

      Thank you, glad I liked it! (I write an article, by the way :))))
      1. DimerVladimer
        DimerVladimer 16 May 2018 16: 15
        +3
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Thank you, glad I liked it! (I write an article, by the way :))))


        I look forward to it - it is always interesting to know the reasoned point of view :)
      2. DimerVladimer
        DimerVladimer 16 May 2018 16: 28
        +5
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Most likely it was like that - 25,4 mm of the forecastle deck + 25,4 mm armored and between them - a few more millimeters of the upper deck. If the projectile fell along the ship close to the side, then 38 mm of the casemate roof + 38 mm of the casemate deck + 25,4 mm of the bevel of the armored deck, but this is a very, very narrow strip along the side of the ship to get the shell into it, you have to try very hard.


        I remember the battleship Jean Bar, who received a 16 "pill from Massachusetts in Casablanca, which broke through
        main deck - 170 mm; lower deck - 41 mm



        The greatest impact could have been hit by a projectile that pierced the deck in the stern of the battleship and exploded in the cellar of medium-caliber towers (fortunately empty).

        But this battleship had one of the best horizontal bookings of that time ...
        1. NF68
          NF68 16 May 2018 17: 29
          +2
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          But this battleship had one of the best horizontal bookings of that time ...


          The quality of the French armor was noticeably inferior to the English and German.
          1. DimerVladimer
            DimerVladimer 17 May 2018 07: 57
            +2
            Quote: NF68
            that time...
            The quality of the French armor was noticeably inferior to the English and German.


            Well, by no means double - and 10-15% do not play a big role.
            Moreover, it’s more difficult to penetrate 170 mm of the main armored deck than several armored ceilings of 25 mm or 50 successively.
            The energy of shells 15-16 "armor-piercing shells allows them to overcome decks 25-50 mm thick without destroying the body of the shell.
            1. NF68
              NF68 17 May 2018 16: 12
              0
              Quote: DimerVladimer
              Quote: NF68
              that time...
              The quality of the French armor was noticeably inferior to the English and German.


              Well, by no means double - and 10-15% do not play a big role.
              Moreover, it’s more difficult to penetrate 170 mm of the main armored deck than several armored ceilings of 25 mm or 50 successively.


              Even these 10-15% mean a lot. In addition, in the case of the French battleships, the Americans chose the distance they needed. At medium distances, the heavy, at a low initial speed, American 16 "projectile is not as dangerous as at large when it is able to penetrate well-defended decks of enemy battleships.

              The energy of 15-16 shells of armor-piercing shells allows them to overcome decks 25-50 mm thick without destroying the body of the shell


              The American 16 "projectile first hit the 170 mm. Upper deck, but apparently even after that the projectile did not collapse.
        2. Lozovik
          Lozovik 17 May 2018 09: 54
          +2
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          I remember the battleship Jean Bar, who received a 16 "pill from Massachusetts in Casablanca, which broke through
          main deck - 170 mm


          In the area of ​​SK cellars, 150 mm. In any case, the power of the American 16-inch is impressive.



          imgur.com/xRhs4A9.jpg
          1. DimerVladimer
            DimerVladimer 17 May 2018 12: 37
            0
            Quote: Lozovik
            Quote: DimerVladimer
            I remember the battleship Jean Bar, who received a 16 "pill from Massachusetts in Casablanca, which broke through
            main deck - 170 mm


            In the area of ​​SK cellars, 150 mm. In any case, the power of the American 16-inch is impressive.



            imgur.com/xRhs4A9.jpg


            An excellent scheme - apparently since Jean Bar was being completed at American shipyards, they amazingly accurately determined its damage. Thank you - I did not come across this scheme before!
            An angle of incidence of 40 degrees is the data for mathematical modeling :)
            1. Lozovik
              Lozovik 17 May 2018 14: 58
              +1
              This circuit is installed aboard Massachusetts.

              In principle, you can calculate the distance with which the projectile was fired. According to Suliga, Jean Bar was struck at 08:25. According to the scheme, approximately 26000 meters are obtained. From navweaps.com the closest value is 27432 meters, the angle of incidence is 34,1 degrees, the table armor penetration is 194 mm.



              ibiblio.org/hyperwar/NHC/OpExpFastBBs/OpExpFastBB
              s_files / OpExpFastBBs-7.jpg

              Quote: DimerVladimer
              An angle of incidence of 40 degrees is the data for mathematical modeling :)


              This is only a projection. If you add it to the heading angle (about 29 degrees), it will turn out, if I'm not mistaken, about 33-34 degrees, which is pretty good in agreement with the above data.
    2. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 16 May 2018 19: 54
      +4
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      Like most battlecruisers before him, the Tiger is significantly vulnerable to long-range combat for large-caliber shells, which will later on play its role in the death of Hood.

      "Hood" was built taking into account the experience of the Battle of Jutland. The total thickness of the armored decks above the cellars was at least 125 mm. Moreover, he read one opinion that the British, after computer modulations of the Hood’s death, concluded that the “Hood” destroyed defective shells. They believe that a normal armor-piercing projectile had to explode to the cellars, because he had to overcome:
      the deck of the tank above the bow cellars 38mm, the upper deck above the aft cellars 50,8mm;
      main deck above cellars 76,2 mm;
      intermediate deck above the cellars 50,8mm;
      hi
      1. DimerVladimer
        DimerVladimer 17 May 2018 07: 52
        +1
        Quote: Rurikovich
        Moreover, I read one opinion that the British, after computer modulations of the Hood’s death, concluded that the “Hood” destroyed defective shells. They believe that a normal armor-piercing projectile had to explode to the cellars, because he had to overcome:
        the deck of the tank above the bow cellars 38mm, the upper deck above the aft cellars 50,8mm;
        main deck above cellars 76,2 mm;
        intermediate deck above the cellars 50,8mm;


        I’m not sure that the designers of that time correctly represented the mechanism of penetration of armored decks - for even Jean Bar’s decks - undoubtedly more seriously booked, were pierced by American 16 "shells - well, it cannot be that both Germans and Americans had defective armor-piercing shells in service - I suppose not. Very accurately calculated fuse retarders.
        1. Rurikovich
          Rurikovich 17 May 2018 19: 16
          0
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          Very accurately calculated fuse retarders.

          In order to accurately calculate the moderator, you need to conduct a bunch of tests, plus not the fact that exactly the right factors will develop in the battle, so that the shell explodes in the right place at the right time. request
          1. DimerVladimer
            DimerVladimer 18 May 2018 11: 40
            0
            Quote: Rurikovich
            In order to accurately calculate the moderator, you need to conduct a bunch of tests, plus not the fact that exactly the right factors will develop in the battle, so that the shell explodes in the right place at the right time.


            No, not necessarily. The calculation here is just not complicated.
            The question is that if the first obstacle splits the projectile, then damage from it is minimized. The battlecruisers had a spaced reservation in the hope that detonation would occur after breaking the first 25,4 mm obstacle. But this assumption is true for 280 mm, does not apply to heavy armor-piercing shells 15-16 ".
            Tiger Rinaun Hood - were doomed to break horizontal reservation 15 "shells from a long distance.
      2. DimerVladimer
        DimerVladimer 17 May 2018 08: 09
        +1
        Quote: Rurikovich
        "Hood" was built taking into account the experience of the Battle of Jutland. The total thickness of the armored decks above the cellars was at least 125 mm.


        I can only repeat: the sequential arrangement of decks having a reservation of 25-50 mm does not lead to the destruction of armor-piercing shells 15-16 ", and therefore the kinetic energy drops slightly - that is, large-caliber shells were extremely dangerous for all battle cruisers, which showed an instant tragic the death of Hood.
        With his extremely weak horizontal reservation, he was contraindicated in engaging in battle at long distances.
        Ships of more modern projects of the 30s, already had different principles of horizontal booking, well-booked decks (according to the designers), capable of destroying the integrity of large-caliber shells falling at large angles - however, this was not justified for shells 15-16 ".
      3. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 17 May 2018 19: 04
        +1
        Yes, I also read it, in my opinion it’s with Nathan Okun. There are two thoughts, either a defective projectile, then by the way on the “Prince of Wales” they also found an unexploded 380 mm., Or fatal bad luck - a German shell won one chance out of a thousand.
  3. anzar
    anzar 16 May 2018 17: 13
    +3
    Author Respect.
    Tiger is a step in place.

    Not certainly in that way. When life goes forward, a step in place is akin to a step back :))
    If at first lin. cruisers were designed to fight with armored predecessors, then, as such, and the enemy appears at all, it is not clear what the British were guided with the reservation. After all, the monopoly of speed is lost and it is no longer "best defense". Even if we assume that the armor of the German LKR is the same cardboard (to their GK), the battle with them clearly seemed like battles of armored decks of the late 19th century. With that the most important the difference is that the armored decks could not hit each other in the cellars ...
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 16 May 2018 19: 47
      +3
      Quote: anzar
      Not certainly in that way. When life goes forward, a step in place is akin to a step back :))

      ... here, you know, you have to run as fast just to stay in the same place, but to get to another place you need to run twice as fast.
      © Charles Lutwich Dodgson
      smile
      Quote: anzar
      If at first lin. cruisers were designed to fight with armored predecessors, then, as such, and the enemy appears at all, it is not clear what the British were guided with the reservation.

      Actually, it was already incomprehensible from the very beginning - what guided the British with booking.
      Because the fight against BrKR was only a subtask in the framework of the 5 main tasks of the LCR:
      1) conducting intelligence;
      2) support for smaller reconnaissance cruisers;
      3) an independent service for the protection of trade and the destruction of enemy raiders-cruisers;
      4) urgent arrival and cover of any actions of the fleet;
      5) the pursuit of the retreating linear fleet of the enemy ... putting him, if possible, in a hopeless position, focusing fire on the lagging ships.

      And when fulfilling points 1, 2, 4 and 5, the LCR had every chance to meet the enemy’s LC. But the reservation, in order to survive at least short-term fire contact with the LK during the separation from the enemy line, the LKR did not have.
      I’m not talking about what no one thought - and what will happen if the enemy also builds a "large armored cruiser with guns of a battleship caliber"? smile
  4. NF68
    NF68 16 May 2018 17: 28
    +3
    Interesting stuff.
  5. DimanC
    DimanC 16 May 2018 18: 36
    +1
    It seems that the "Queens" were designed by other designers :-)
    1. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 16 May 2018 18: 48
      +1
      Are you talking about which of them? Queenov. did you know much in the navy.
      1. DimanC
        DimanC 17 May 2018 16: 11
        0
        Yes, the very ones that appeared literally after this very "Tiger"
  6. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 16 May 2018 19: 23
    +3
    The article, as always, is a plus! yes hi
    The Tiger is an aesthetically beautiful ship. A kind of swan song of the development of British LCR to PMV. On the one hand, he was lucky that the opponent under Jutland was for the most part Moltke with his 11 "artillery, because being the fourth in the ranks there was no reason to count on how the targets were distributed. Therefore, a dozen basically 11" shells of this cat in principle, with dignity withstood without explosions of towers and loss of speed. It is not yet known how the most advanced of the four cruisers with 13,5 "artillery would lead in opposition to those who were created to fight it (German LCR with 305mm artillery) Judging by how the sisterships kept the strike, I think it would have been hard. Although the comparisons can be positive (“Princess Royal” did a good job, and “Lion” reached the base), they can be negative (“Queen Mary”). So in any battle it’s important to see where the shell hit, and not how much (in relatively short in time battle)
    But the author will tell us this. Hypothetically. I will not get ahead of myself ...
    Thanks again for the good stuff.
  7. sds127
    sds127 16 May 2018 20: 54
    +2
    interesting, informative, readable) thanks.
  8. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 16 May 2018 21: 43
    +1
    Derflinger is prettier. Atmosphere. One tripod is worth it :)

    A good article, thanks!
  9. Potter
    Potter 16 May 2018 21: 46
    +2
    Thank! Unfortunately, now there is only time to quickly read and thank / plus.
    Regarding the speculation of what would have happened if Jo lived in WWII and met with someone from the ShiG - the ShiG were by no means the height of perfection. With the limited parameters of the ship, the Germans created palliative ships. And if Tiger remained in the ranks, the British would lose one oz of their new battleships. However, not too strong in artillery fire, but much more modernly armored.
    1. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 16 May 2018 22: 22
      +2
      The last "kings" that went into operation in 1943 were no longer needed. All were replaced by an aircraft carrier. And all of them safely went to the cutting after serving no more than ten years.
      1. Potter
        Potter 17 May 2018 19: 06
        0
        However, they all worked intensively until the end of WWII. By Peter C. Smith, “Sunset of the Lord of the Seas” describes in detail the combat work of the British battleships in WWII. Often, they simply did not have a replacement and an alternative. And in general, a battleship or aircraft carrier is a very controversial topic in the history of WWII. Type as a "tank or anti-tank gun." And the place was both that and that, and in the United States Navy until the end of the war, all the main classes of ships were part of the associations - even the Americans could not afford to leave airborne airliners without the protection of arkolotushkami.
        1. TermNachTer
          TermNachTer 17 May 2018 19: 18
          0
          Well, where to put them? Do not send immediately for conservation. So they used it a little, although there was no particular need. To guard the “Scharnhorst” two “king” was enough for the eyes. so the Britons could have these 15 million ft. Art., spend with greater benefit.
    2. unknown
      unknown 18 May 2018 23: 49
      0
      Why not strong? Against the “Bismarck” is the most. The Germans have eight guns and a light projectile, only 800 kg. The British have ten guns and a heavy projectile, 720 kg.
  10. Comrade
    Comrade 17 May 2018 02: 56
    +4
    Dear Andrey, good, solid analysis, thanks +!
    How much sympathy I had in my youth in the products of the English shipbuilding of the dreadnought era, so now they cause antipathy :-) Very Englishmen are self-confident and arrogant, apparently this prevented them from critically evaluating their projects.
    1. unknown
      unknown 18 May 2018 23: 53
      0
      Not only shipbuilding. And small arms, and armored vehicles, and aviation. And this is in a country in which, according to traditional history, the industrial revolution occurred earlier than in ALL other countries.