Military Review

A different look at the loss of the USSR in the Great Patriotic War

160
Russian economist, journalist and politician, host of a number of television and radio programs, Doctor of Economics Mikhail Delyagin in his website published an article in which “one of the most respected bloggers of Runet burkina-new (it is worth remembering that“ Burkina Faso ”is translated as“ the country of honest people ”)” calculates the true, in his opinion, number of Soviet citizens who died during the years of the Great Patriotic of war.

The blogger writes: “The last figure in the 41 million 979, sounded in the State Duma, is terrified to an untrained person, and to the anti-Soviets a great joy, because they receive another confirmation of the incompetence of the“ cannibalistic Stalinist regime ”. But if you turn on the brain and rely on the basic numbers of the numbers of the prewar and post-war population of the USSR, you can easily understand that these numbers are a giant lie. Now I will illustrate it.

And so I took the official figures of the population of the USSR and built this schedule:



I made the following adjustments to it: the population of the USSR at the end of 1945 of the year in 170,5 million people I took from Krivosheev. The past was equal to 172 million. This increased the overall decline in the population of the USSR to 34,5-36,5 million.

Based on this figure, it is now possible to calculate the irretrievable losses of military and civilians during the war years. To do this, it suffices to deduct from the total loss those who migrated (did not return from captivity and forced labor in Germany). According to Krivosheev, those were 180 thousand and 450 thousand people. Total 0,63 million

It remains to find out the natural increase in the population, which did not take place during the war due to low birth rates and increased mortality. To do this, I used the reference book of the Central Statistical Bureau of the USSR "The number, composition and movement of the population of the USSR" for 1965 a year. There, on page 215, we learn that before the war, the annual increase in the population of the USSR was from 3 to 3,3 million. For 5 years in the minimum and maximum scenario, this will give us the number in 15 and 16,5 million people. The smaller figure is used for the maximum loss scenario, and the larger one for the minimum.

As a result, we obtain the result that I depicted in the diagram:



The maximum number - 20,9 million dead and killed during the war. This figure is very close to the official loss figure of the Brezhnev era, and the minimum figure in 17,4 million is close to the figure of Viktor Zemskov in 16 million people.

I dare to suggest that with my reasoning I proved the complete delusionalness of the new figure in 42 million people. By the way, as well as the delusional restructuring of the loss figure in 26,7 million, invented by order of Alexander Yakovlev by the team of Andreev, Darsky and Kharkova, known for sucking 7 million from the finger of ostensibly motivated by Stalin in 1932-33. ”

Mikhail Delyagin himself noted:
It is gratifying to understand that Russian society is gradually recovering from the monstrous perestroika self-spitting syndrome. And it is gratifying to see that the Soviet government was honest and tried to tell the truth, even in the most painful and terrible issues, which is confirmed by modern, unbiased scientific research.
Photos used:
https://zen.yandex.ru/media/burckina-new.livejournal.com
160 comments
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  1. Vard
    Vard 10 May 2018 15: 52
    +30
    The 12-volume history of the Second World War ... the figure is about the same ... but it is necessary to distinguish between military losses and civilian casualties ... What is interesting is that we have less military losses than Germans ...
    1. Greg Miller
      Greg Miller 10 May 2018 16: 15
      +5
      16-17 million people who died and disappeared ... Here is a scientifically substantiated figure of the losses of the USSR during the Second World War ...
      1. Separ DNR
        Separ DNR 10 May 2018 16: 25
        +16
        Quote: Vard
        What is interesting is that we have less military losses than the Germans ...

        In the USSR, they treated better and more efficiently, and a larger% cent was returned to duty (this applies to military personnel) ...
        1. zugunder12
          zugunder12 10 May 2018 17: 34
          +3
          Quote: Separ DNR
          Quote: Vard
          What is interesting is that we have less military losses than the Germans ...

          In the USSR, they treated better and more efficiently, and a larger% cent was returned to duty (this applies to military personnel) ...

          How do you know that they treated better in the USSR? I had a living witness - my grandfather, he was wounded three times. So, I don’t know how the Germans treated him, but my grandfather said that after he flew into the trench a German grenade and he didn’t have time to grab it and throw it back to the Germans, as he usually did, he was wounded in both legs and was operated on without anesthesia, he wasn’t injected at all, he was just given vodka to drink, tied to an operating table, stuffed into his mouth piece of a thick stick and let's cut it. Some of the fragments remained at my feet. After the war, my grandfather involuntarily became a meteorologist smile - if your legs get sick, it’s the rain.
          1. Separ DNR
            Separ DNR 10 May 2018 17: 43
            +29
            Quote: Zugunder12
            he was wounded in both legs and was operated on without anesthesia, they didn’t inject anything at all, they just gave him vodka, tied it to an operating table, shoved a piece of a thick stick into his mouth and let’s cut it. Some of the fragments remained in his legs.

            In operation, your grandfather began to continue to fight? And a German, with such a wound, would not ...
            And you think that everywhere and always, the Germans could provide proper medical care in sanbats?

            Everything was bad with us ... As soon as we won recourse ??? God alone knows ...
            1. Huumi
              Huumi 10 May 2018 18: 01
              +5
              How do you know that I would not?
            2. zugunder12
              zugunder12 10 May 2018 18: 14
              +5
              Quote: Separ DNR
              Quote: Zugunder12
              he was wounded in both legs and was operated on without anesthesia, they didn’t inject anything at all, they just gave him vodka, tied it to an operating table, shoved a piece of a thick stick into his mouth and let’s cut it. Some of the fragments remained in his legs.

              In operation, your grandfather began to continue to fight? And a German, with such a wound, would not ...
              And you think that everywhere and always, the Germans could provide proper medical care in sanbats?

              Everything was bad with us ... As soon as we won recourse ??? God alone knows ...

              My grandfather stood up - but he told me very interesting details that did not fit in with official Soviet propaganda - and so, my grandfather told me that he personally picked his wounds so that they would not heal longer and would not be sent to the front early. praised their doctors (they were Russian women) - they saw very well what my grandfather was doing and didn’t give him to the NKVD or whatever, maybe SMERSH. My grandfather was not a coward, he received many awards, he was just an infantryman. I was struck by the memory of his stories - in 1942, in a battle with the Germans, one of his colleagues called him to help: “Harutyunyan, help! I’m wounded!” Grandfather left his solitary trench, crawled to the wounded man and saw that his comrade’s affairs were bad , returned to his trench to take his duffel bag when he was carrying his friend to the medical unit. So, my grandfather went away for a few minutes and when he returned to his place, he could not find his trench and duffel bag in it - a German bomb fell right on her and razed her to the ground.
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. rbz05
                rbz05 10 May 2018 23: 25
                +3
                Your grandfather looks like he was at war.
          2. himRa
            himRa 10 May 2018 17: 59
            +5
            The Germans were not accustomed to our frosts, and the equipment in the Wehrmacht was bad .... therefore, with no critical injuries associated with blood loss, they froze to death for an hour ... this was especially expressed in the battle of Stalingrad! unlike ours in kufayki, short fur coats and boots ... some boots the Germans were worth! leather and metal caps and caps in 25-30 degree frost ...
            1. DMB_95
              DMB_95 10 May 2018 19: 00
              +10
              Quote: himRa
              The Germans were not accustomed to our frosts, and the equipment in the Wehrmacht was bad .... therefore, with no critical injuries associated with blood loss, they froze to death for an hour ... unlike ours in kufayks, short fur coats and felt boots ... some boots what the Germans were worth! leather and metal caps and caps in 25-30 degree frost ...

              According to the Barbarossa plan, the Germans were going to defeat the USSR before the winter of 41, and they had to die in the cold. Pity them, what now ??
              1. himRa
                himRa 10 May 2018 19: 05
                +6
                Quote: DMB_95
                Pity them, what now ??

                Actually, I commented on our medical care ...
                And I don’t think it’s worth pitying them –– they themselves got pissed off and nobody called them, my grandfathers would definitely not regret it !!!
                The front-line soldier whom I knew for many years during the perestroika spit and could not forgive to the end what I saw with my own eyes ...
                1. Svarog51
                  Svarog51 10 May 2018 19: 31
                  +3
                  Raheem, my respect hi
                  And I don’t think it’s worth pitying them –– they themselves got pissed off and nobody called them, my grandfathers would definitely not regret it !!!

                  Mine did not spare them either. good "Whoever comes to us with a sword will die by the sword!"
              2. Pollux
                Pollux 10 May 2018 21: 56
                +2
                Quote: DMB_95
                According to the Barbarossa plan, the Germans were going to defeat the USSR before the winter of 41, and they had to die in the cold.

                Even theoretically, according to the Barbaross plan, after the “victory”, the Germans had to leave the occupying forces in Russia, and in any case take care of warm clothing.
                1. Mih1974
                  Mih1974 11 May 2018 00: 30
                  +4
                  You confuse warm and soft !! Occupational forces and "trenches" are two more differences! What do you know about dead Nazis in occupied cities and settlements? The report is very simple - nothing, just for the reason that in the settlements and basing centers there is no sense in subjecting the personnel to the stresses of low temperatures leading to their illness and especially death. Also in the unoccupied territories, the Germans were not "shy" to steal and rob Russians, including taking away warm clothes.
                  Therefore, with the "implementation of the Barbarossa plan" - they (the soldiers) would be in warm rooms and the problem of warm clothes would not be as acute as the result. good "dogs dog death."
                  1. Pollux
                    Pollux 12 May 2018 00: 39
                    0
                    Quote: Mih1974
                    Therefore, with the "implementation of the Barbarossa plan" - they (the soldiers) would be in warm rooms and the problem of warm clothes would not be as acute as the result.

                    Yeah, they would have been right on the premises. All half a year while winter is coming. And why do not Russians use such a “brilliant” tactic? They would sit at home for half a year and clothes would not be needed!
                2. Makso melan
                  Makso melan 12 May 2018 06: 58
                  0
                  But what about the account so that on the spot it is already available from local warehouses and not dragged along.
          3. Nikolay Fedorov
            Nikolay Fedorov 10 May 2018 19: 32
            +16
            Quote: Zugunder12

            How do you know that they treated better in the USSR? I had a living witness - my grandfather, he was wounded three times. So, I don’t know how the Germans treated him, but my grandfather said that after he flew into the trench a German grenade and he didn’t have time to grab it and throw it back to the Germans, as he usually did, he was wounded in both legs and was operated on without anesthesia, he wasn’t injected at all, he was just given vodka to drink, tied to an operating table, stuffed into his mouth piece of a thick stick and let's cut it. Some of the fragments remained at my feet. After the war, my grandfather involuntarily became a meteorologist smile - if your legs get sick, it’s the rain.

            The use of anesthesia or the non-use of anesthesia is not an indicator of the quality of medicine. The indicator can be considered only the percentage returned to the drill.
            And the use or non-use of anesthesia is a completely different matter. It just turned out to be much more wounded than originally expected.
            Cutting without anesthesia is, of course, painful, but quite tolerable. I know that they cut my back while injuring a lung. It became very sick only after years, he also became a meteorologist. And there is nothing fun in this, so in vain you put a smiley face. If your grandfather made fun of this, it was only because he was well done and used to swagger rather than sour.
            1. Baloo
              Baloo 10 May 2018 21: 03
              +7
              Quote: Nikolai Fedorov
              Cutting without anesthesia is, of course, painful, but quite tolerable. I know that they cut my back while injuring a lung. It became very sick only after years, he also became a meteorologist. And there is nothing fun in this, so in vain you put a smiley face. If your grandfather made fun of it, it’s only because he’s done well and he’s used to swagger rather than sour

              Once, on the anniversary of the end of the Second World War, they showed a short documentary clip - an operation for hip amputation, apparently in a partisan detachment. Summer, tall pines, in the sun somewhere around 11.00, home-made wooden table. The soldier was given a drink, tied to a table, the doctor, without any dressing gown and mask, after processing the field, cuts the tissues on his hip in one motion. Then another movement. Surgeons understand what I mean. Like this. We will always remember our grandfathers. And about those who Berlin reeled, and about those who did not reach, and about those who died from wounds. I have a grandfather from a family of enemies of the people (dispossessed for a cooperative that gave work and food to the village) the whole war went through, a photo from hospitals, never wore awards, although I remember a thick folder with his award documents and certificates in childhood.
          4. ufpb
            ufpb 10 May 2018 20: 49
            +2
            K. Simonov, read the first volume, Living and Dead, and understand that the main thing is not how and by what, but the surviving and recovered fighter. My grandfather was terribly lucky from 07.1942/09.1945 to XNUMX/XNUMX not a single wound with hospitalization. But in old age he suffered very much from "Parkinson's disease."
          5. Mih1974
            Mih1974 11 May 2018 00: 26
            +1
            Unlike the Germans of the USSR, there was Penicillin (an antibiotic) which saved a lot of wounded, while blood poisoning was one of the worst sentences for wounded countries that did not have antibiotics, it was like this in the first world, so it was in the second, the Germans didn’t have antibiotics .
            1. nov_tech.vrn
              nov_tech.vrn 11 May 2018 05: 01
              +5
              there was no penicillin at the beginning of the war, the first penicillin was obtained in 1942, but there was a school of the outstanding surgeon Nikolai Ivanovich Pirogov, the founder of military field surgery
          6. Nikolaevich I
            Nikolaevich I 11 May 2018 02: 21
            +5
            Quote: Zugunder12
            How do you know that in the USSR they treated better?

            Quote: Zugunder12
            , he was wounded in both legs and was operated on without anesthesia

            Yo mine! And by this reasoning, do you conclude that the treatment was worse and not better? belay Yes. There are a lot of such descriptions in military stories ... But what does it mean? It means that anesthesia has ended! There were many wounded! What? Was it difficult to include the “think-tank” in order to understand this? fool
            1. sogdy
              sogdy 11 May 2018 07: 52
              0
              I would like to note that the existing anesthesia did more harm than a minor operation (extracting fragments from soft tissues - according to the description of the bone, they were not affected, which is somewhat inconsistent with the description of the cause of the injury).
          7. Serg koma
            Serg koma 11 May 2018 04: 26
            0
            Thanks to YOUR grandfather, and Thanks to the military doctors who returned (at least twice with your grandfather as an example) a soldier in service.
          8. Makso melan
            Makso melan 12 May 2018 06: 53
            +1
            German doctors would just cut off your grandfather's legs. It was accepted that they had it. After the capture near Stalingrad, German officers were surprised that our doctors did very little amputation, they complained that they treated prisoners poorly. Then they figured it out and ours turned out to be better assisted.
        2. Baloo
          Baloo 10 May 2018 20: 30
          +12
          Quote: Separ DNR
          Quote: Vard
          What is interesting is that we have less military losses than the Germans ...

          In the USSR, they treated better and more efficiently, and a larger% cent was returned to duty (this applies to military personnel) ...

          Motivation is also important when returning to service after being injured. For some reason, no one remembers how the doctors fought back to save the wounded. Each competent commander of the medical battalion carried, in addition to the standard weapons, also unreportedly unaccounted for trophy weapons, for example, German machine guns and grenades. They hid, but had a supply. And how many doctors died without leaving the wounded?
          Tired of films about frostbitten prosecutors, cops and bandits.
      2. Proxima
        Proxima 10 May 2018 17: 08
        +13
        Quote: Greg Miller
        16-17 million people who died and disappeared ... Here is a scientifically substantiated figure of the losses of the USSR during the Second World War ...

        And the hedgehog was clear that Gorbi’s special order to add 20 million more to 6 million linden of the purest water. Okay .... .... tutki-politicians, they have their own interests (it was necessary to "blood" Stalinist Russia even more). But you, scientists, historians, extras, do you have professional integrity? Just think, 6, "just something" 000 (!!!) divisions that fell down from nowhere and directly (all to one !!!) into a mass grave!
        1. zugunder12
          zugunder12 10 May 2018 17: 55
          +5
          Quote: Proxima
          Quote: Greg Miller
          16-17 million people who died and disappeared ... Here is a scientifically substantiated figure of the losses of the USSR during the Second World War ...

          And the hedgehog was clear that Gorbi’s special order to add 20 million more to 6 million linden of the purest water. Okay .... .... tutki-politicians, they have their own interests (it was necessary to "blood" Stalinist Russia even more). But you, scientists, historians, extras, do you have professional integrity? Just think, 6, "just something" 000 (!!!) divisions that fell down from nowhere and directly (all to one !!!) into a mass grave!

          Suppose Delyagin is right and about 20 million people died. So these are terrible figures. My grandfather was wounded three times in that war, was awarded the Order of the Red Star, he had a medal, I remember, “For Courage” and some other medal with Stalin’s profile, minted on it. My grandfather returned from that war almost disabled. It saved him that he was always an athlete and led a healthy lifestyle. At the same time, scoundrels are found on the site who loudly claim that the contribution of Armenians to the common victory was small. So that my words would not look empty, I will give a specific example - just today, a forum member under the interesting nickname Seal claimed everything that I listed. I’m no longer surprised by this, this is already a trend in modern Russia. In 2010, your President at a press conference seriously claimed that Russia would have defeated Germany without the Ukrainians. Having heard this, I was taken aback. I can’t upload photos and pictures, but he would have posted an excerpt from this press conference of your president. Putin argued that the Russian Federation itself could have coped with the Germans without the participation of Ukrainians. I could see how you deal in Ukraine and Syria without WWII. I would have been sent to a ban for such behavior on the site a long time ago, but forum users like a fan of American special forces are always given a green light.
          1. Proxima
            Proxima 10 May 2018 18: 16
            +18
            If someone offended you on the site, then I, as a representative of one nation with them, apologize for them, believe me, there are a lot of defective ones on the brain and on conscience. 106 Heroes of the Soviet Union for such a tiny country - is not enough? And how many generals are among them! For persimmon, they probably got it all! Truly human stupidity there is no limit! hi
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. Proxima
                Proxima 10 May 2018 21: 48
                0
                Quote: Zugunder12
                .As soon as an article about Armenia appears on the forum, the forum member under the nickname Seal is right there and let's pour mud on all Armenians. The one eating under the Russian tricolor is not necessarily Russian by nationality.

                There is no particular need to think about it, either he is a provocateur, either he (there is a worthless excuse for him) or he is a Turk. To all these Turks, there is only one question - please return the sacred mountain Ararat to the Armenians!
            2. I am Russian
              I am Russian 11 May 2018 01: 10
              +1
              Quote: Proxima
              Believe me, there are plenty of defectives on the brain and on conscience among Russians.

              That's what I look ...
              Ask for forgiveness for the famine, for Katyn, too, which is trifling.
              1. Proxima
                Proxima 11 May 2018 09: 15
                0
                Quote: I am Russian
                Quote: Proxima
                Believe me, there are plenty of defectives on the brain and on conscience among Russians.

                That's what I look ...
                Ask for forgiveness for the famine, for Katyn, too, which is trifling.
                And here is the Holodomor and Katyn, to which we have nothing to do? Are you an adequate person?
                1. Tula gingerbread
                  Tula gingerbread 11 May 2018 14: 39
                  +1
                  And ask for Syria and Ukraine, for which Karen rebuked us and put us at fault?
                  Let Karen beguiled, to say the least.
                  He took the phrase out of context, Putin was asked, what would happen if Ukraine participated in the war, that’s what Putin replied to, they would have won anyway.
                  So Karen should not be offended, but also behave appropriately.
                  About the contribution of the Armenians, as much as there were forces and opportunities, they invested so much and there can be no reproaches here.
                2. I am Russian
                  I am Russian 11 May 2018 20: 39
                  0
                  And here is the Holodomor and Katyn, to which we have nothing to do? Are you an adequate person?

                  Moreover, since you are pouring mud on Russians, and asking for forgiveness, it’s unknown for anyone (supposedly Russian), on behalf of all Russian people, then do not limit yourself. Ask and repent for everything that we are hung.
          2. DMB_95
            DMB_95 10 May 2018 19: 13
            +10
            Quote: Zugunder12

            Suppose Delyagin is right and about 20 million people died. So these are the same scary figures ..

            Scary. Especially when you consider that the combat losses are about 8 million, and the rest are the civilian population, which the Germans deliberately destroyed.
          3. Ruzhik420
            Ruzhik420 10 May 2018 19: 26
            +15
            Well, you are also cunning here. Putin was asked a question on a straight line. He answered briefly: If there were separate states, Russia would have won anyway, because it has contributed the largest industrial and human resource, but this does not touch the contribution of all the peoples of the former USSR in victory over fascism. "
            1. ufpb
              ufpb 10 May 2018 21: 00
              +4
              And my grandfather in modern Ukraine is an occupier. Everything is very controversial in the statements of politicians. The main thing for us, living, is not to forget who our grandfathers were and to honor their memory.
          4. Nikolay Fedorov
            Nikolay Fedorov 10 May 2018 19: 55
            +13
            Quote: Zugunder12

            ... And at the same time, there are scoundrels on the site who loudly claim that the contribution of the Armenians to the overall victory was small. So that my words would not look empty, I will give a specific example - just today the forum member under the interesting nickname Seal claimed everything, what i have listed. I am not surprised at this anymore; this is already a trend in modern Russia.

            Karen, it feels like you are sitting at the computer of some Armenian kindergarten and splashing out your childhood grievances with all-all-all for some unknown person Seal. This Seal probably lives somewhere in Canada, maybe in Armenia, maybe in Russia ... And here is the insult to ALL Russia ?!
            Quote: Zugunder12
            At a press conference in 2010, your President seriously claimed that Russia would have won Germany without the Ukrainians. Hearing this, I was taken aback. I can’t upload photos and pictures, otherwise I would have put out an excerpt from this press conference of your president. Putin argued that the Russian Federation itself would deal with the Germans without the participation of Ukrainians.

            Karen, you just introduced yourself as a fake distributor. I personally saw .... I personally heard ... And then it remains only to add in the same style: "with a high degree of probability ...". You can not upload pictures, do not upload. They don’t have faith anyway. Of course, you don’t have video and audio files either, and you don’t know how to upload them. You only know how to retell fakes?
            Quote: Zugunder12

            And what such a seditious forum member claims under the nickname Seal - he only claims that Russia was not particularly and needed the participation of Armenians in the WWII.

            Here again you are talking about some unknown Seal. Forget about him. You better look through books about the history of our common Motherland - the USSR, but look at how the state evaluated the mind and courage of its citizens during the Second World War. What does the hero’s nationality have to do with - is he Armenian, Russian, Yakut or Azerbaijani ?! We were all together at that time, and nationality was not particularly important, especially at the front. This nationality has now become important, including thanks to people like you, touchy and not willing to think natures.
            1. Dart
              Dart 10 May 2018 21: 53
              +2
              I subscribe to every word.
          5. Mic1969
            Mic1969 10 May 2018 21: 40
            +4
            You either lie cynically, or you didn’t watch Putin’s speech.
            Quote: Zugunder12
            At a press conference in 2010, your President seriously argued that Russia would have defeated Germany without the Ukrainians.

            I don’t remember what year it was, but in my opinion much later. And Putin said this in response to the stupid assaults of the crest of the Second World War that generally won the Ukrainians.
          6. Mih1974
            Mih1974 11 May 2018 00: 49
            +4
            Let’s frankly - the fate of the "small nations", we will call it so only in terms of number and by no means not in significance, it really had little significance for the overall victory. It’s as if my words sounded vile - naked mathematics. For 41 years, the number of the USSR is 171 million people, the number of Armenians mmm, well, let’s accept (conditionally) 1 million people, almost any ethnic group of the USSR had an equal number of men of draft age with all the “assumptions” that were (from 17 attributed the age to elderly reduced). So, in the red army there were no more than 1% of Armenians (conditionally). And now, soberly, without considering every feat of every soldier, look at these figures, do you still consider the contribution of the Armenian people to be significant? Why do you have such self-conceit, how is it that the Armenians so stood out in the war that they excelled others?
            And now the most unpleasant thing - in the population of the USSR by 41, the main nationality was - Russians (identifying them as Ukrainians and Belarusians would be a lie) and it was they who accomplished the main thing for the victory over the Nazis. This I say solely from the FIGURES there is no chauvinism, this is a ruthless truth.
            Putin’s words are also true, but more complex “without those geeks who now call themselves Ukrainians”, distinguishing themselves from the Russian people of the USSR, it completely coped with itself. Yes, it would be more difficult, perhaps longer or more victims, but they did it.
            But mind you, I in no way dare say "only the Russians won" negative for EVERY nation has contributed, it’s like the House is made of small bricks, but “each” of them is Important repeat
            Excuse me, but it’s not the Russians who drive other nations out of Russia, it’s mm “the authorities of the states” that are breaking away from the “Russian world”. Won the bogeys "dream" of idiots in the EU and NAT came true but all is not happy, their countries are dying out, literally. Ancient Sumerians - they think that these IDIOTS have come true. The Georgians were also "happy" that they were no longer with the Russians. You recall how they killed and expelled Russian (Dada on nats. Grounds) from the village of Asia?
            And why do not you like our victories (good deeds) in Syria and Ukraine, well, in more detail with the facts, call the "defeats" of our troops for example.?
        2. Conserp
          Conserp 10 May 2018 18: 59
          0
          Quote: Proxima
          Just think, 6, "just something" 000 (!!!) divisions

          Since when have civilians been considered "divisions"?
      3. Conserp
        Conserp 10 May 2018 17: 31
        +2
        Quote: Greg Miller
        16-17 million people who died and disappeared ... Here is a scientifically substantiated figure of the losses of the USSR during the Second World War ...

        Why are you lying?

        Military losses: 7 million dead, 4 million prisoners, and one and a half million killed in captivity.
        1. Greg Miller
          Greg Miller 10 May 2018 18: 10
          +2
          Quote: Conserp
          Quote: Greg Miller
          16-17 million people who died and disappeared ... Here is a scientifically substantiated figure of the losses of the USSR during the Second World War ...

          Why are you lying?

          Military losses: 7 million dead, 4 million prisoners, and one and a half million killed in captivity.

          I refer to the research of Viktor Zemskov, and you, storyteller, what are you referring to ???
          1. Conserp
            Conserp 10 May 2018 19: 04
            +2
            Quote: Greg Miller
            I refer to the research of Viktor Zemskov

            That is, on long-refuted unscientific assessments based not on facts, but on rumors and opinions, with gross errors

            Quote: Greg Miller
            and you, storyteller

            From the storyteller and the provocateur and I hear

            Quote: Greg Miller
            what are you referring to ???

            Krivosheev's data, confirmed and specified after full digitization of archives
            1. Greg Miller
              Greg Miller 10 May 2018 19: 33
              +1
              Do you take into account civil losses? And Krivosheev is still earlier and less accurate research ...
              1. Conserp
                Conserp 10 May 2018 22: 38
                0
                Quote: Greg Miller
                Do you take into account civil losses?

                Since when did civilians "die and go missing"?

                Quote: Greg Miller
                And Krivosheev is still earlier and less accurate research ...
                2010, full digitization of all archives, 50 million records, og
      4. Huumi
        Huumi 10 May 2018 17: 59
        +1
        Not-new is 1 soldier. Everything. Goebbels is resting
      5. Sergey Medvedev
        Sergey Medvedev 10 May 2018 20: 15
        +5
        Quote: Greg Miller
        16-17 million people who died and disappeared ... Here is a scientifically substantiated figure of the losses of the USSR during the Second World War ...

        Do not write nonsense here from the liberals. 6,3 million dead, about whom everything is known, up to the place of burial + 3.8 million missing.
        Take a look at the pre-war census (yourself) and you will find out that the population of the USSR amounted to 200 million people before the war, including 51 million men of draft age, including those who were 1941 years old in 14 and started to be called up in 1945.
        out of 51 million men:
        27 million called up in the Red Army
        3.5 million in the NKVD
        4.5 million to the Labor Army
        at least 5 million unfit for military service due to health reasons
        3 to 5 million men were killed by Germans in the occupied territories of the USSR
        about 2 million were in camps
        at least a million representatives of repressed peoples, who also stopped calling.
        There remain 3-5 million people employed in hard and highly skilled jobs that cannot be replaced by women and children.
        The USSR has no reserves of people! According to Soviet data! Therefore, any increase in losses of new "researchers" is an obvious absurdity when you know the big picture.
        According to the Red Army.
        27 million is called upon. (3 million were +24 million called for during the war years)
        at the end of the war, 11 million + 1 million wounded were treated
        4 million laid off for health reasons (disabled)
        fatalities 6.3 million
        3.8 million missing
        laid off in connection with a conviction for more than 8 years, up to the execution of 0.5 million people
        0.5 million people transferred to other ministries and departments
        If some "researcher" claims that the dead and missing are not 10 million people, but 17 million, then he needs to squeeze these additional 7 million not only into the number of the Red Army, but also into the number of the USSR. And DO NOT OWN! NO!
    2. Merold
      Merold 10 May 2018 16: 46
      +4
      Quote: Vard
      . What is interesting is that we have less military losses than the Germans ...

      Link please?
      1. gray
        gray 10 May 2018 17: 58
        +11
        Hello. Here is an interesting article: https: //topwar.ru/11444-poteri-sssr-i-germ
        anii-v-vov.html. Here is the second link https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_to_Second_mi
        rovoy_voyne.and the third link https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_in_Great_From
        natural war. A little plagiarism from the first article: “I would like to end the article with the phrase of an unknown British officer. When he saw a column of Soviet prisoners of war who were driven past the“ international ”camp, he said:“ I forgive the Russians in advance for all that they will do with Germany ” . "
        1. Merold
          Merold 10 May 2018 18: 30
          +5
          Quote: gray
          Hello. Here is an interesting article:

          Hello. I read it. It does not say that we had less losses than the Germans.

          Quote: gray
          "I would like to end the article with a phrase from an unknown British officer. When he saw a column of Soviet prisoners of war being driven past the" international "camp, he said:" I forgive the Russians in advance for all that they will do with Germany. "

          This was written by Anthony Beaver in the book The Fall of Berlin 1945.
          “The Soviet offensive forced the Germans to urgently evacuate not only concentration camps, but also prisoner of war camps. Columns of prisoners stretched along the snowy roads. Their protection was hardly aware of the final point of this march. One evening, a group of British prisoners of war caught up with a convoy of former Red Army soldiers.

          Soviet prisoners were not dressed at all in winter and did not even have shoes. Their legs were wrapped in some rags. “The emaciated pale faces,” Robert Key wrote later, “were in sharp contrast with the black beards of the tormented people. Only their eyes betrayed the presence of something human, something very weak, undercurrent, but still human. It was these eyes that sent the last desperate call for help. ”

          The British began to rummage in their pockets and throw various objects to the Soviet prisoners: someone soap, someone cigarettes. One of the packs fell too far. The Russian prisoner stepped aside a little to pick her up, but immediately the Volkssturm guard came running and crushed the pack. Then he began to beat the prisoner with the butt of a rifle. There was a roar of indignation among the British. The guard did not expect such a turn of events. He stopped beating the Russian and stared at the British column in bewilderment. The cruelty in the treatment of prisoners of the camps became so familiar to him that any murmur of indignation seemed to him simply unthinkable. Then he began to threaten the British with his rifle, but the grumble among them still did not stop. In the end, the order was established by the protection of the British convoy itself, and the Volkssturm soldier went to the Russians. "My God! - said one of Ki's comrades. “I forgive the Russians in advance for everything that they will do with this country when they come here.” Everything".
          1. gray
            gray 11 May 2018 14: 08
            0
            Hello. You add up losses and satellite not only German. All, "almost" all sources give from 8 to 9 million that we have what they have. All this without taking into account the irretrievable losses of the German paramilitary organizations. I want to give an interesting fact "Air battles in the Kuban ":" according to reports from both sides, more planes were shot down than the enemy had available, that is, there is no way to talk about the reliability of the victory messages. The exact data on the losses of the parties are unknown. "German historians deny the significance of the losses suffered by German aviation, considering them normal for military operations and many times less than the losses of Soviet aviation. The fact is that after these events Soviet aviation already had the full initiative. I do not say that the Luftwaffe was helpless, but did not have the initiative and was a dangerous enemy to the very end.
            1. Merold
              Merold 11 May 2018 14: 13
              0
              Quote: gray
              Hello. You add up losses and satellite not only German

              Hello. And for what? We do not add up the losses of the USSR and allies. (from which the Germans also suffered losses).
              1. gray
                gray 11 May 2018 14: 21
                0
                It's simple, the satellite suffered losses on the eastern front, and not on the western one, and we also suffered not small losses from them. I hope I explained. If you say that you read the links there, taking into account the losses and from your allies, it’s calculated or you didn’t read.
                1. Merold
                  Merold 11 May 2018 14: 49
                  0
                  Quote: gray
                  Everything is simple, the satellite suffered losses on the eastern front, and not on the western one, and we also suffered small losses from them. I hope I explained.

                  Not until the end. And with whom then, for example, Italy fought and on which front?

                  Quote: gray
                  .If you say that you read the links so there, after all, taking into account losses and from the allies, it is calculated or you did not read.

                  Why do we need this? In my opinion, only the losses of Germany and the USSR on the Soviet-German front in the period from 1941 to 1945 should be considered. No?
                  1. gray
                    gray 11 May 2018 14: 56
                    0
                    Hi. Maybe you. You didn’t understand me again. All the satellites fought on the eastern front and the Italians too. EVERYTHING. They didn’t hand out flowers, they shot and killed. If they were there and they killed and we killed them not to count. By the way against civilians also committed crimes. In one of the links, the losses of the satellites on the eastern front are indicated.
                    1. Merold
                      Merold 11 May 2018 15: 16
                      0
                      Quote: gray
                      Hi. Maybe you. You didn’t understand me again. All the satellites fought on the eastern front and the Italians too. EVERYTHING. They didn’t hand out flowers, they shot and killed. If they were there and they killed and we killed them not to count. By the way against civilians also committed crimes. In one of the links, the losses of the satellites on the eastern front are indicated.

                      Well, I understand your position and agree with her. In any case, even Krivosheev (not to mention everyone else) does not say that the loss ratio was about the same, no?
                      1. gray
                        gray 11 May 2018 15: 24
                        0
                        I understand, but there was no hatred. This discussion was necessary only for this. It couldn’t be different. The Germans had all the best weapons tactics and the most important experience. It was hard to win science. What is the Koenigsberg operation worth.
                  2. Vasilenko Vladimir
                    Vasilenko Vladimir 11 May 2018 14: 58
                    0
                    Quote: Merold
                    In my opinion, only the losses of Germany and the USSR on the Soviet-German front in the period from 1941 to 1945 should be considered. No?

                    no
                    there were Romanians, and Finns, and Italians, in your opinion, they were throwing flowers at our soldiers ?!
                    loss ratio can be considered only taking into account all howling parties, but on the eastern front
        2. DMB_95
          DMB_95 10 May 2018 19: 26
          +7
          Quote: gray
          “I forgive the Russians in advance for all that they will do with Germany.”

          And the Russians did not begin to burn German villages with the people, as the Germans did here. Then no one would say that our losses are more than German. The Russians allowed them to live.
          1. Mih1974
            Mih1974 11 May 2018 00: 58
            +1
            Maybe they didn’t burn it for nothing request . We would more than have the moral right to do this instead of one Kallinigrd region and another “Berlin” the size of the GDR. And the troops would not have to withdraw and no association, etc. Sophisticated is the topic.
            1. Yuyuka
              Yuyuka 11 May 2018 11: 04
              0
              Quote: Mih1974
              Maybe they didn’t burn it for nothing request . We would more than have the moral right to do this instead of one Kallinigrd region and another “Berlin” the size of the GDR. And the troops would not have to withdraw and no association, etc. Sophisticated is the topic.


              it’s just that not all of our people would have raised that ... unlike the “civilized” Europe ...
      2. Conserp
        Conserp 10 May 2018 19: 10
        +4
        The USSR lost 6.5 million military, 0.5 million non-military and 4 million prisoners - 11 million military losses.

        Muller-Gillebrand writes that 1939 million were mobilized alone in the army and the SS in 1945-18. At the same time, he deliberately holds back a number of aspects.

        That is, Germany lost at least these 18 million.

        In 1945, 10 million of the entire German army remained - in total prisoners and surrendered.
        1. Merold
          Merold 10 May 2018 19: 22
          0
          Quote: Conserp
          The USSR lost 6.5 million military, 0.5 million non-military and 4 million prisoners - 11 million military losses.

          Muller-Gillebrand writes that 1939 million were mobilized alone in the army and the SS in 1945-18. At the same time, he deliberately holds back a number of aspects.

          That is, Germany lost at least these 18 million.

          In 1945, 10 million of the entire German army remained - in total prisoners and surrendered.

          I requested links, not fancy.
          1. Conserp
            Conserp 10 May 2018 22: 39
            +1
            Everything is clear with you
            1. Merold
              Merold 11 May 2018 09: 51
              0
              Quote: Conserp
              Everything is clear with you

              The man said, and could not confirm his fantasies by reference. Well, OK.
    3. Huumi
      Huumi 10 May 2018 17: 58
      +1
      Of course, less ... Soon I’ll start to cry, how can I discuss the topic? No matter how much I dig and search, historians call them 32 to ..... for years, but as they say, nobody will ever be in this he won’t tell the world ... 6 million were captured, 4 died poor in a foreign land. 4.5 million are fallen on all fronts as military, missing and sanitary losses. This is the same way to announce the figures without even trying to count primitively walking along the milestones of the war and major battles ...
    4. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 10 May 2018 18: 33
      +10
      Quote: Vard
      The 12-volume history of the Second World War ... the figure is about the same ... but it is necessary to distinguish between military losses and civilian casualties ... What is interesting is that we have less military losses than Germans ...

      As in my opinion the figures of Delyagin are quite correct and close to the truth. It’s still not possible to calculate exactly.
      But Delyagi lit up one side inf. war against us in this matter. There is another, no less significant side, the ratio of combat losses. The enemies point out - the Wehrmacht lost much less than the Red Army. Yes, probably less. But ... If we calculate the losses of countries that fought against us both with their armies (Finland, Romania, Hungary, Italy) and with individual military units not listed in the Wehrmacht casualties lists - SS divisions: Estonian, Lithuanian, Latvian, Croatian, Norwegian, Danish, Ukrainian, Belgian and other parts. They made up an impressive force - 14 divisions and 5 brigades, not counting the various legions and smaller parts. with about 500 people.
      And our grandfathers and fathers had to grind this force, which they did with success.
      So, if we summarize the losses of the Wehrmacht, their allies and individual nat. SS divisions yes plus losses of the Japanese (after all, the losses of the Red Army in the Far East and China are taken into account in the total losses of the Red Army during the war), then I am sure that this will be in our favor.
      Needless to say, our people knew how to fight. Eternal glory to them and forever and ever!
      1. Mih1974
        Mih1974 11 May 2018 01: 05
        0
        And it is also necessary to take into account an extremely unimportant factor - the Wehrmacht did NOT include: doctors, repair and restoration structures, military police, SS, transport. Well, that is, there were field doctors and drivers, BUT the hospital was not a Wehrmacht, there were a lot of vehicles and drivers not a Wehrmacht. Well, you understand, that is, for the correct comparison, you need to compare the comparable. And of course, there was a favorite American approach to losses - if a fighter was dying from wounds in the rear (they brought him still alive), then he was considered "dead NOT in battle" belay here is such an "entertaining math" negative
    5. Vasilenko Vladimir
      Vasilenko Vladimir 10 May 2018 19: 23
      0
      Quote: Vard
      What is interesting is that we have less military losses than the Germans ...

      actually not if we are talking about the eastern front with us they are somewhat larger
      1. Conserp
        Conserp 10 May 2018 22: 46
        0
        What more than what?

        Our military losses - 7 million killed and 4 million prisoners

        The Germans alone surrendered - 10 million

        Given that the Germans did not mobilize at least 20 million, the rest flew to Antarctica, or what?
        1. Vasilenko Vladimir
          Vasilenko Vladimir 11 May 2018 09: 38
          0
          Quote: Conserp
          Our military losses - 7 million killed and 4 million prisoners

          The irretrievable losses of the armies of the USSR and Germany (including prisoners of war) - 11,5 million and 8,6 million people. (not counting 1,6 million prisoners of war after May 9, 1945), respectively. The ratio of irretrievable losses of the armies of the USSR and Germany with satellites is 1,3: 1
          1. Conserp
            Conserp 11 May 2018 10: 02
            0
            Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
            The irretrievable losses of the armies of the USSR and Germany (including prisoners of war) - 11,5 million and 8,6 million people.

            The rest of the Germans flew to Antarctica !!!

            The idiotic gosdepovo-Nazi-propaganda nonsense.
            1. Vasilenko Vladimir
              Vasilenko Vladimir 11 May 2018 10: 37
              0
              and weakly give a link to non-idiotic data ?!
    6. Kent0001
      Kent0001 10 May 2018 22: 22
      +3
      so the Germans atrocities in the occupied territories .... the plan "Ost" has not been canceled. In Belarus, where resistance was resistance during the occupation, a quarter of the entire population was destroyed !!!!! A quarter of the whole nation !!! So, if it were not for our Grandfathers and Great-Grandfathers, then we would not have been ... and our corrupt liberals too ..... since soap would have been brewed from our ancestors .... this must be understood.
    7. Vladimir K.
      Vladimir K. 11 May 2018 07: 47
      +1
      Not less, but more: the Fritz military killed about 5 million, plus a million with something from their allies (we are talking about losses precisely on the fronts of the confrontation with the USSR), and, in my opinion, a little less than 8 million, tons .e. loss ratio of approximately 1 to 1,3, which clearly indicates the delusionality of the myth of "overwhelmed with corpses." These statistics, by the way, also take into account mortality in the camps, where Germans died by orders of magnitude less than the Red Army men - our people were purposefully destroyed, at least until 1943, which means that combat losses on the fronts of the confrontation between the Nazis and the USSR are approximately equal .
      1. Conserp
        Conserp 11 May 2018 10: 04
        0
        Quote: Vladimir K.
        Fritz military killed about 5 million

        These are fake numbers concocted by former Nazis for the Pentagon's misinformation and propaganda department.
        1. Vladimir K.
          Vladimir K. 12 May 2018 14: 47
          0
          Goblin has a movie on this topic with Yegor Yakovlev at Tupichka. To me, Yegor seems to be a credible historian.
          1. Conserp
            Conserp 12 May 2018 18: 05
            0
            Which one? There are more than a hundred of them.

            Egor is excellent, but he is not an expert on this issue and does not have access to the German archives (they went to the United States).
            He can only broadcast Western "historians" such as Glanz and Muller-Hillebrand, who are not historians at all, but professional propagandists, falsifiers.

            This wretched fake about 5 million Germans dismantled the same Yulin.
            1. Conserp
              Conserp 12 May 2018 18: 23
              0
              Worst of all, of course, Halder - the main nonsense and the source of the "official" Western figures of German losses.
              For their falsification in the framework of the information war against the USSR, the Pentagon even gave him the order.
  2. Coconut
    Coconut 10 May 2018 15: 56
    +1
    Scouring ... no words recourse
  3. NEXUS
    NEXUS 10 May 2018 15: 58
    +14
    And again, they are attracting Putin’s guilt in these calculations. I don’t defend GDP, I just want to understand what it’s done for. And I get an answer - for EXTENDING MOOD INSIDE RUSSIA and warming up the population’s discontent with the ruling regime. And who benefits, I think not hard to guess.
    1. Logall
      Logall 10 May 2018 16: 03
      +15
      Quote: NEXUS
      And I have an answer - for EXTENDING MOOD INSIDE RUSSIA and heating up the dissatisfaction of the population with the ruling regime. And who benefits from this, I think it's not difficult to guess.

      Here I agree with you! Already laid out, but
      1. Vladimir Ter-Odiyants
        Vladimir Ter-Odiyants 10 May 2018 16: 44
        +1
        Quote: Logall
        Quote: NEXUS
        And I have an answer - for EXTENDING MOOD INSIDE RUSSIA and heating up the dissatisfaction of the population with the ruling regime. And who benefits from this, I think it's not difficult to guess.

        Here I agree with you! Already laid out, but

        Boys, I’m not in the subject if something.
    2. spektr9
      spektr9 10 May 2018 16: 06
      +4
      The government also needs to ponder its steps and statements, and even if they wanted the whole pro-Western opposition to be put in places not so remote
    3. rocket757
      rocket757 10 May 2018 16: 09
      +9
      Ha, and he called our popularly elected regime!
      A trifle, of course, is stronger than it is, it is popularly elected, no one can shake the situation in the country! This is very bad, because stability, sales of such a government, which I and many dislike, there is a chance that we will not crash into tartarara!
      Since we have chosen the majority of those who came to the polls, we must calmly, without cataclysms live to the deadline .... six years at the same time, it’s not forever, we will survive !!!
    4. Evgeny Strygin
      Evgeny Strygin 10 May 2018 17: 09
      +1
      pulling one last name is always a manipulation.
      1. NEXUS
        NEXUS 10 May 2018 17: 22
        +3
        Quote: Yevgeny Strygin
        pulling one last name is always a manipulation.

        But there is a difference when Vasya Pupkin is attracted as an office mid-level employee, and Putin’s president is another matter. And here the manipulation of a completely different caliber and vector.
        1. Evgeny Strygin
          Evgeny Strygin 10 May 2018 21: 24
          0
          the caliber of the essence does not change. Neither the pulling of all sins on our guarantor nor any magical successes is connected with reality in any way.
    5. Huumi
      Huumi 10 May 2018 18: 07
      +1
      That's right, no matter how many numbers are called now, they would be left alone. It would be better to make shoigu-darling units based on the Ministry of Defense and there is money and people and equipment .. no ...
    6. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 10 May 2018 18: 23
      +6
      Quote: NEXUS
      FOR EXTENDING MOOD INSIDE RUSSIA

      As a matter of fact, I agree with you, but on loosening the mood within the country, the GDP and its gang are making more pendos. request
      1. Golovan Jack
        Golovan Jack 10 May 2018 18: 27
        +3
        Quote: Ingvar 72
        As a matter of fact, I agree with you, but on loosening the mood within the country, the GDP and its gang makes more pendos

        Are you all messing around, Osia? And GDP is also to blame for this, of course yes
        1. Ingvar 72
          Ingvar 72 10 May 2018 18: 28
          +4
          No kitty, he's a saint! laughing Only for some reason there are only demons around him! wink
          1. Golovan Jack
            Golovan Jack 10 May 2018 20: 11
            0
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            No kitty

            Well, glory ... Labor. Although it does not bother you.
            And then what bothers you then? wink
            Although - yes ... work, she, of course, is not a wolf laughing
            1. Ingvar 72
              Ingvar 72 10 May 2018 20: 14
              0
              Quote: Golovan Jack
              And then something bothers you then?

              You really think hard. I wrote demons! wassat
              P.S. Reread Fedor Mikhalych. wink
              1. Golovan Jack
                Golovan Jack 10 May 2018 20: 15
                0
                Quote: Ingvar 72
                Quote: Golovan Jack
                And then something bothers you then?

                You really think hard. I wrote demons! wassat

                Mdya ... a bad case request
                About "a little tight" - I'm only from work, I can yes
                1. Ingvar 72
                  Ingvar 72 10 May 2018 20: 18
                  0
                  Quote: Golovan Jack
                  Mdya ... a bad case

                  Is that Putin. Demons do not give him normal rule. laughing
                  1. Golovan Jack
                    Golovan Jack 10 May 2018 20: 19
                    0
                    Quote: Ingvar 72
                    Is that Putin

                    Yes, no ... the campaign is the same with you. What to do, you will stretch your tongue here ... bad, ugly request
                    1. Ingvar 72
                      Ingvar 72 10 May 2018 20: 23
                      +1
                      Quote: Golovan Jack
                      Yes, no ... the campaign is the same with you.

                      Again you are in the wrong steppe. Communicating with you, another work of Dostoevsky comes to mind - The Idiot. laughing
                      Quote: Golovan Jack
                      What to do, you will stretch your tongue here ... bad, ugly

                      After work, good and beautiful. And who does not like it - pass by. wink
                      1. Golovan Jack
                        Golovan Jack 10 May 2018 20: 26
                        0
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        Good and beautiful after work

                        Ankdot recalled:
                        When I leave for work, I baffle my wife in the ass. And when I come to work, the ass is still shaking.
                        And not because she has such a big ass, but because we have the shortest working day in the world

                        You were not on the site, judging by the tape, from 9 to 16. An employee wink
                        I also want such a working day wassat
                    2. Ingvar 72
                      Ingvar 72 10 May 2018 20: 33
                      +1
                      Quote: Golovan Jack
                      I also want such a working day

                      Oh kitty do not envy. Well, where we are not, or in the wrong hands the horseradish is thicker. My day is not standardized, sometimes it’s 3 hours, sometimes it’s 12. And it includes a very close “love” with Makita 5001. And after such “betrayals” even my wife lacks strength. request
                      1. Golovan Jack
                        Golovan Jack 10 May 2018 20: 38
                        0
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        Oh kitty don't envy

                        Yes, I do not envy you, Osia. I’m trying to understand how a young, healthy man can get to the point that he is whining day and night on the Internet, that Putin (and demons) interfere with his life.
                        And about work - they did not surprise me, in general ... I also saw such people (s) yes
                    3. Ingvar 72
                      Ingvar 72 10 May 2018 21: 06
                      +2
                      Quote: Golovan Jack
                      that Putin (and demons) interfere with his life.

                      Yes, I do not whine, I am indignant, for it is a shame for the power. In the mailbox, daytime tryndyat that we have everything for people. and achievements are off limits. But this is a box, but in life other realities, and not with the state, not with the housing and communal services, is not realistic. request And there is really no work, you have to get out unofficially semi-legally.
                      And then the newly elected president introduced the new old team. Ugh! How is it from the new composition? wink
                      P.S. The night cuckoo calls to sleep, and arguing with her is more expensive. laughing
        2. KVIRTU
          KVIRTU 10 May 2018 19: 34
          0
          "Russia is not difficult to manage, but completely useless." Alexander 2nd.
          Maybe it's not the kings of the ruling? laughing
      2. Mih1974
        Mih1974 11 May 2018 01: 07
        0
        I support - appoint Mutko to civil engineering belay and the ghoul Siluanov in general over the entire economy block. Forgive me for not calling this an excuse for a revolution. negative
    7. zoolu350
      zoolu350 10 May 2018 18: 34
      +3
      To feel dissatisfaction with the ruling oligarchy of the Russian Federation, you just need to live in the Russian Federation. And no one has done more than the oligarchy of the Russian Federation to warm up dissatisfaction with the oligarchy of the Russian Federation. And the hired manager of the Russian oligarchy, of course, has nothing to do with it. The king is good, the boyars are bad.
  4. sleeve
    sleeve 10 May 2018 15: 59
    0
    We need a formal study with a reasoned figure. This is just IMPORTANT.
  5. sleeve
    sleeve 10 May 2018 16: 06
    +4
    As for military casualties. Their comparability. The combination of extreme war operations is impressive. Offensive, where losses should have been calculated 1: 3. Especially in the storming of cities where 1: 7–9 is quite comparable in terms of foreign concepts. Masterpieces of military art. Fire concentration, sacrifice of "tank hammers" for the sake of manpower ... Yes, even the charter of the 43rd "Staligrad" read, the soul sings. And the ratio of prisoners? In the absence of global type Vyazemsky, Kiev, Bialystok boilers! "German military genius" !! I will refrain from sharp cheers-patriotic cries out of respect for the MILLIONS of dead soldiers. Eternal memory to them and glory to the Russian soldier.
    1. Rumata-estorskii
      Rumata-estorskii 10 May 2018 16: 24
      +12
      The meaning of 1 to 3 during the offensive is a little different .. During the offensive, a three-fold excess of the number of personnel before the defenders is required to achieve success, but there is no way that the advancing party suffers three times more losses. You can write a lot here, but if briefly and roughly, then in most cases, I repeat - in most cases, the defenders suffer more losses, because they are forced to endure artillery preparation first, then the air attack, and then someone who was still alive deflects the attack with the remaining forces that are superior and already not three, but 4-5 times by enemy forces. Why do you think the defense is layered (2-4 lines of trenches, sometimes lagging from each other from 1 to 5 km)? The answer is simple - the 1st line of defense ceases to exist very quickly, the 2nd line lasts a little longer (and in 41 there was no talk of any separation at all). Plus, the attacker chooses the time and place of the battle. Add a huge number of prisoners when the offensive is successfully completed. Thus, the defenders cease to exist.
      If we compare the losses of ours and the German in the war, it is clearly seen: the Germans come in 41-43 - the Soviet Union has more losses, ours occur in 44-45 - the Germans have more losses.
      Remember also the percentage of surviving our prisoners in German captivity and vice versa.
      1. sleeve
        sleeve 10 May 2018 16: 37
        0
        Well ... I'll think about the above regarding layered defense. I will rethink the layers of military science, so to speak. especially with the deployment of defending forces. Well ... In WWI in the first year, as it were, everything is true. Further separation is explained somewhat differently. About the captivity, I agree one hundred percent, but only in terms of progcent of the survivors. Sadism is not a statistical thing, of course. You, as I understand it, are a "military specialist" in full growth and most likely an academy, well, or is there a school behind you anyway? At 41m did without separation? Hmm ... Well, then yes. Most likely we are confusing active tactical and strategic defense here. Examples? Moscow (Mozhayskaya and further into the depths of the defense line, Stalingrad contours) ... Well, okay. These are trifles. 1: 3 ... Well, for the knowledge of the meaning of the numbers something like https://p-chuchundrin.livejournal.com/100366.html
        . Unfortunately, mathematics, damn it, although it is about human lives.
        1. Rumata-estorskii
          Rumata-estorskii 10 May 2018 17: 00
          +3
          Thank you for the military specialist, of course. I don’t even know whether to be happy or offended? But about the defense in the first echelon, I had in mind that the spacecraft simply did not have time to prepare positions when they retreated in the summer and autumn of 1. The usual practice, unfortunately, is to leave a screen to let the rest go.
          And I know very well about the Mozhaisk defense line, I myself lived there for a while and saw concrete pillboxes riding a highway. And my grandfather, as part of Siberian divisions, stood in the winter of 41-42 near Mozhaisk and did not participate in hostilities, he entered the 1st battle only in Stalingrad.
          In general, you can’t write a lot in this format, all in general terms, the clever one will finish the picture in his head, so you don’t have to find fault with the “specialty”, especially since I left comments not only for you.
          Adios.
          1. sleeve
            sleeve 10 May 2018 19: 47
            0
            I understood the main idea. I agree with the interpretation. Thanks for the discus.
    2. Denis Obukhov
      Denis Obukhov 10 May 2018 16: 46
      0
      The commander should appoint you, you showed how to steer and there would be no boilers lol
    3. Vladimir Ter-Odiyants
      Vladimir Ter-Odiyants 10 May 2018 16: 46
      +11
      Quote: sleeve
      Eternal memory to them and glory to the Russian soldier.

      Eternal Memory and Glory to the Soviet Soldier! All the peoples of the USSR fought !!!
      1. Doliva63
        Doliva63 10 May 2018 18: 18
        +6
        Quote: Vladimir Ter-Odiyants
        Quote: sleeve
        Eternal memory to them and glory to the Russian soldier.

        Eternal Memory and Glory to the Soviet Soldier! All the peoples of the USSR fought !!!

        This is right! good
      2. sleeve
        sleeve 10 May 2018 19: 48
        +1
        I apologize. I agree with the amendment.
  6. true
    true 10 May 2018 16: 12
    0
    However, the question to the author regarding the assessment methodology ... and that during the war, children were not born at all?
    1. nov_tech.vrn
      nov_tech.vrn 10 May 2018 16: 21
      +1
      the figure fits into the scatter between the minimum and maximum, in the occupied territory and in the areas of military operations by orders of magnitude, and there where the war did not reach at times
      1. true
        true 10 May 2018 16: 37
        0
        Probably, in general, the birth rate during the war fell significantly (but still not by orders of magnitude), but in this article it is not taken into account at all
    2. vsoltan
      vsoltan 10 May 2018 16: 38
      +7
      Virtually not born. Just because the vast majority of women stopped having menstruation in those years ... stress, work, malnutrition. I am a doctor, I work with people, mainly with the elderly ... in fact, there are no people born in 42-44 gg. Not.
    3. victor50
      victor50 10 May 2018 17: 15
      0
      All studies calculating losses look convincing ... until equally convincing criticism appears. But I have not met a single work critically analyzing different points of view. And with such opposite approaches, any kind of evidence can be cited, which will be refuted in critical independent work, and criticism, in turn, in the following.
      At first glance, the author’s position looks quite reasonable. But ... as I said above ....
    4. Sergej1972
      Sergej1972 10 May 2018 18: 29
      0
      In rural schools, classes were crowded in the late 40s and 50s.
    5. Mih1974
      Mih1974 11 May 2018 01: 12
      0
      And you recall the creepy "Russian cross" of 90 years when mortality exceeded the birth rate and they "crossed"? And then notice that there were no bombings, concentration camps and SS negative it was the authorities’s bastards that they made "peaceful" means.
  7. 1536
    1536 10 May 2018 16: 24
    +2
    40, no, 20, no 20 and nine-tenths ... This is not a mathematics lesson in elementary school, this is a dialogue between our "political scientists" regarding those who died at the hands of German fascists during the Great Patriotic War. Here some ask, why did anyone need this? First, it is true that within the country a discussion arose again, distrust of the authorities, etc. regarding coverage of the irretrievable losses of the Red Army (by the way, consisting of conscripts from all 15 republics of the USSR), losses among the civilian population, who died in concentration camps and in captivity, etc. Secondly, the descendants of the same fascists who came to power in Germany today really do not want to answer for either 20 or 40 million Soviet people who died at the hands of their fathers and grandfathers. And how many people were not born then in Russia? The echo of war still dominates our country. Here the Poles, for example, have already brought suits against the occupation to the German government. Should we forgive everything? In Nuremberg, a handful of Nazis held the answer. Yes, they got what they deserved. Two Germany were formed on the territory of the former Reich. And the GDR was friendly to us, no matter what. It made sense to turn a blind eye and say that the German people were "not to blame." And now? Germany is ready to be the first to start a war against Russia, with the help of the German government, a coup d'etat was carried out in Ukraine, Germany supports all the delusions starting in the USA. “Nord Stream,” someone will say. Bluff. If it were to the Germans at 300%, there would be no Nord Stream. This is similar to how the USSR sold coal to fascist Germany. The last train with coal under an agreement with Germany went there on 12.00 22 on June 1941 of the year ... In general, one must have a conscience.
  8. Denis Obukhov
    Denis Obukhov 10 May 2018 16: 42
    +6
    All this is complete nonsense and lies. Those who are not too lazy will easily notice that there cannot be, in principle, 42 million. Read the census in the USSR, the larger gap between 1941 and 1946 is 23 million. So, there could be no 42 million there. Or women during the war, had to give birth even more than in peacetime. But this is already on the verge of fiction. But the ignorant will believe in any numbers, since they themselves are not capable of understanding and you can powder your head. Already someone blurted out nonsense that there could be more numbers. Soon they will reach 100 million and everyone will believe, then there are no brains, education is bought.
  9. Old military officer
    Old military officer 10 May 2018 16: 51
    +4
    It’s time to get rid of lies, especially in school textbooks and consider this an advanced position. In addition, an ideology is needed as air, explaining in the name of what we live. We are Russians and all of Russia. And therefore, it is time to take up the Constitution of Russia.
  10. Imobile
    Imobile 10 May 2018 16: 56
    +2
    they receive yet another confirmation of the mediocrity of the "cannibalistic Stalinist regime." But if you turn on the brain and
    The author, if you include the brain, the loss of even one million people is a confirmation of the mediocrity of the "cannibalistic Stalinist regime"
    1. bk316
      bk316 10 May 2018 17: 19
      +14
      Here it is the pinnacle of liberalistic thought:
      The author, if you include the brain, then the loss of even one (one million - cross out) person (s) is a confirmation of the mediocrity of the "cannibalistic Stalinist regime

      And it sounds like beautiful .... And the main thing you won’t refute, because this logic has nothing to do with the real world. And after all, such things were conducted in the 90s (let us disband the army and then no one will attack us) ...
      I now sometimes think that the destroyed USSR, destroyed factories and millions of people who died prematurely are not such a big price for a VACCINE against LIBERAL Nonsense.
      Especially for Igor: there was no "cannibalistic Stalinist regime", and accordingly there can be no "confirmation of mediocrity."
      1. Imobile
        Imobile 10 May 2018 17: 36
        +1
        Let's start off with:
        I don't have brain liberalism
        I don’t have communism- Stalinism of the brain
        I think in ordinary human patterns
        1. NordUral
          NordUral 10 May 2018 18: 02
          +8
          They don’t think in patterns, they utter or follow them in patterns.
        2. Ingvar 72
          Ingvar 72 10 May 2018 18: 27
          +4
          Quote: Imobile
          I think in ordinary human patterns

          Universal human patterns are created by someone, and always for specific tasks. hi
          1. nov_tech.vrn
            nov_tech.vrn 11 May 2018 05: 20
            +1
            there is a more informative concept - stamps
        3. Mih1974
          Mih1974 11 May 2018 01: 15
          0
          Of course you don’t have all this - if there is NO brain then there can be no brain diseases. negative
    2. Conserp
      Conserp 10 May 2018 17: 46
      +1
      Of course. If the brain is wrong.
  11. dr.star75
    dr.star75 10 May 2018 17: 18
    +8
    Irreversible losses of the Red Army about 9 million people. The Wehrmacht is about the same. Moreover, we have different counting systems. If we have a wounded soldier who died of the flu in the hospital, it was considered as killed. If a German died of wounds in a hospital, this was not considered a battle loss. The rest of our losses in the war of 10-12 million are tortured. burnt, shot civilians. That's what you need to talk about!
    1. himRa
      himRa 10 May 2018 18: 07
      +8
      Quote: dr.star75
      The Wehrmacht is about the same.

      There is one caveat: the Germans considered (kept statistics) ONLY the Germans! And with us All Europe fought!
      So the staff of our grandfathers crushed the enemies notably! They knew how to fight, thanks to them for that!
  12. Masya masya
    Masya masya 10 May 2018 17: 19
    +8
    Russian society is gradually recovering from the monstrous perestroika syndrome of self-spitting.

    some patients not only did not recover, they also shy away from treatment ... they sprinkle ash on their heads and strive to apologize for everything ...
    1. NordUral
      NordUral 10 May 2018 18: 01
      +2
      Most likely not patients, but dohtora and felshers liberalistic.
    2. Mih1974
      Mih1974 11 May 2018 01: 16
      +1
      "polonium ice ax" will rectify any "brain disease" good repeat
  13. Fedorovich
    Fedorovich 10 May 2018 17: 23
    +1
    All this was in Urlandis in History of War Losses. He had in general all the losses of all the participants, something about 60 million.
  14. NordUral
    NordUral 10 May 2018 17: 59
    +2
    It's time to shake out the vile lies of the 80s and subsequent years. Vaccinations and medicines from liberalists we received, much more, it is necessary to recover. And not that this jackal pack will bury us alive, along with Russia.
  15. Yak28
    Yak28 10 May 2018 18: 01
    +4
    If we listen to our newly made “historians”, half of the population were killed or captured, the other half was in Stalin’s camps or shot, who fought against almost all of Europe led by Germany?
  16. Conserp
    Conserp 10 May 2018 18: 04
    +1
    There is a serious problem with calculating civilian casualties - it is impossible to clearly draw the line between Nazi war crimes and natural mortality.

    A simple example: the Germans killed a 90-year-old grandmother. All the same, she would not have survived until 1945 - which means that it fits into the expected "natural mortality" and its killing by the Germans is completely invisible for demographic statistics.

    And such Germans killed millions. The Germans themselves did not keep records of the population being destroyed.

    That is why the estimate of "27 million" makes sense and the right to exist.

    It is also known quite accurately (a complete digitization of the archives confirmed the figures of Krivosheev) that the total losses of the Red Army - 8.7 million dead - is 6.3 million combat, 0.5 million non-combat, but then comes the total figure: 1.7 million "killed and missing "

    And this figure - 1.7 million - again can not be reliably divided. It is impossible to determine with certainty which part of these soldiers died in battle, and which part was captured and starved in a concentration camp.
  17. Bakht
    Bakht 10 May 2018 18: 41
    +1
    Calculating civilian casualties is generally problematic. But military losses are calculated quite accurately. The simplest arithmetic has been proposed for a long time already.
    About 30 million people were called up in the USSR. The number of the Red Army in 1945 - 12 million people. Losses make up 18 million people. This is not all dead. This is the wounded too.
    In Germany, about 20 million people were called up. Recent months (Volkssturm and other things cannot be counted). The number of the Wehrmacht at the time of surrender was about 7 million people. According to Gillebrandt, 7,5 million people. Losses make up 12,5 million people.
    We discover Keitel’s memoirs, which he wrote before his execution. The loss of the Wehrmacht per month on average, he estimated at 150 thousand people (not counting the major battles). Over the 6 years of the war, this makes about 10 million people. For him, it did not matter if a person was killed, wounded or captured. This is all LOSS for the commander.
    So, I consider the military losses to be approximately equal (12 million people each). Civilian casualties have nothing to do with military art. The policy of genocide carried out by the Nazis and the carpet bombing of the Allies is impossible to take into account.
  18. Old26
    Old26 10 May 2018 18: 47
    +2
    Quote: Zugunder12
    and some other medal with Stalin’s profile

    "For the victory over Germany"

    Quote: Zugunder12
    At a press conference in 2010, your President seriously argued that Russia would have won Germany without the Ukrainians. Having heard this, I was taken aback.

    Would win. And without the Second Front they would have won, only losses would be disproportionately greater.
  19. BAI
    BAI 10 May 2018 19: 56
    +1
    It is gratifying to understand that Russian society is gradually recovering from the monstrous perestroika syndrome of self-spitting.

    Unfortunately, he is not recovering. This is an isolated case and the rubric of the site "History" confirms this.
  20. bolt
    bolt 10 May 2018 20: 19
    +5
    The issue of irretrievable losses of the army is solved quite simply. The number of armed forces at the time of the outbreak of hostilities is taken, the number of those drafted during the war years is added to them. And then the number of demobilized and the residual strength of the army is deducted. The difference is an irreparable loss. All. The dead, dead from wounds, in captivity, missing, not returning for one reason or another to their homeland.

    It is strange that a purely technical issue has been the subject of speculation for so many years. Including the first persons of our state.

    And it is especially surprising that at least once this was done. It turned out about seven and a half million people. These are the real losses of the Red Army in the Great Patriotic War. Based on the archives of the Moscow Region.

    In 1988, the head of the interdepartmental commission, lieutenant general, doctor of historical sciences, made this data in one of the TV programs (in my opinion, VZGLYAD). I do not remember, unfortunately, his last name. People worked with archives of the Moscow region for four years. Here is their result I remember. Against the backdrop of endless perestroika nonsense about the "mountains of corpses."

    It is strange that I no longer came across any references to this program and about this data.
    1. Conserp
      Conserp 10 May 2018 23: 11
      0
      Quote: crashing
      The issue of irretrievable losses of the army is solved quite simply ...

      Krivosheev.

      http://lib.ru/MEMUARY/1939-1945/KRIWOSHEEW/poteri
      . Txt

      Balance Figures - Table 132

      Losses - Table 120

      This edition is not the newest, 2001, but quite accurately everything is there.
      1. bolt
        bolt 11 May 2018 01: 06
        +2
        Quote: Conserp
        Quote: crashing
        The issue of irretrievable losses of the army is solved quite simply ...

        Krivosheev.

        http://lib.ru/MEMUARY/1939-1945/KRIWOSHEEW/poteri
        . Txt

        Balance Figures - Table 132

        Losses - Table 120

        This edition is not the newest, 2001, but quite accurately everything is there.


        Thank you I looked at the book.
        But in the program, which I remembered, another person appeared, in my opinion. And his group was not initiative, but created by a government decree. And it was, after all, in the mid-80s.
        However, thanks again.
  21. bolt
    bolt 11 May 2018 08: 03
    +3
    An interesting schedule in the article. There is a “failure” associated with the Great Patriotic War, but where is the same - in 36-38 years? Where are the "tens of millions of repressed" that our "civil society" loves to howl about?
    1. Conserp
      Conserp 11 May 2018 10: 23
      0
      Stalin had cloning installations, with the help of which he tipped 100 million, of which he shot half, and the other half heaped the Germans with corpses.

      Stalin also had a time machine - with his help he shot the Poles in Katyn in the spring of 1940 with German cartridges, which the Germans themselves began to develop only in the summer!
  22. Tektor
    Tektor 11 May 2018 11: 59
    0
    You can also divide the loss of military and civilian, what is shown in red. The most accurate calculation of military losses gives the figure of losses in hostilities of 10,9 million, taking into account those who "died" twice, thrice, etc.
    1. Conserp
      Conserp 11 May 2018 13: 25
      0
      Quote: Tektor
      gives a loss figure

      Again - what kind of losses are we talking about.

      Killed + prisoners in the amount of 10.5 million, another 940 thousand were lost in the operational sense (they sat in the forests in the occupied territory)
  23. cradle
    cradle 11 May 2018 14: 17
    +1
    Quote: Zugunder12
    Quote: Separ DNR
    Quote: Vard
    What is interesting is that we have less military losses than the Germans ...

    In the USSR, they treated better and more efficiently, and a larger% cent was returned to duty (this applies to military personnel) ...

    How do you know that they treated better in the USSR? I had a living witness - my grandfather, he was wounded three times. So, I don’t know how the Germans treated him, but my grandfather said that after he flew into the trench a German grenade and he didn’t have time to grab it and throw it back to the Germans, as he usually did, he was wounded in both legs and was operated on without anesthesia, he wasn’t injected at all, he was just given vodka to drink, tied to an operating table, stuffed into his mouth piece of a thick stick and let's cut it. Some of the fragments remained at my feet. After the war, my grandfather involuntarily became a meteorologist smile - if your legs get sick, it’s the rain.

    So, as the grandson of perhaps the very surgeon who operated your grandfather, I will be responsible for all the medical doctors (my grandmother has 7000 operations from Stalingrad to Potsdam — for the sake of interest, count how many a day — you go nuts). Your grandfather may have been saved this way (yes, maybe it's tough), but if he hadn’t urgently operated on, he would have died of gangrene or ZK. Perhaps there were no stupid painkillers not far from the front or surrounded (you did not write the details). But they treated as well as possible in that situation and in each individual case. And the surgeon would be asked if my grandfather died on the table from pain shock. So the surgeon KNEW what he was doing. And ... put a candle for him - these were real surgeons!
  24. Merold
    Merold 11 May 2018 15: 33
    0
    gray,
    Quote: gray
    It could not be otherwise.

    But the conversation began precisely because it was alleged that it could.
    Good luck!
    1. gray
      gray 11 May 2018 15: 52
      0
      Well, actually, I started discussing with you and didn’t even say where it could or could not be. I have already given the meaning of my words. I understood. At least in your words I did not find this. All good.
      1. Merold
        Merold 11 May 2018 16: 34
        0
        Quote: gray
        Well, actually, I started discussing with you and didn’t even say where it could or could not be. I have already given the meaning of my words. I understood. At least in your words I did not find this. All good.

        I hope my answer didn’t look politely? Personally, I started a conversation with a friend after this phrase.
        1. gray
          gray 11 May 2018 16: 47
          0
          No, on the contrary, it’s interesting to discuss. This is precisely “you can link”, but it will not exist. Without alternative. We don’t need an alternative story.
  25. Alex Justice
    Alex Justice 11 May 2018 16: 23
    0
    Quote: himRa
    The Germans were not used to our frosts,

    No need to tell tales. This is a bluff. All people freeze the same.
    When I'm comfortable in fur boots, Australians go barefoot and in shorts. Here in Australia, all Russians complain of cold weather in winter, which sometimes drops to 13 degrees during the day and 3 nights, and admire seasoned Australians.
  26. pafegosoff
    pafegosoff 11 May 2018 17: 06
    0
    Taki trillion about eight ....