Military Review

On what? NASA concerned about anti-Russian sanctions on RD-181 engines

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The United States, due to anti-Russian sanctions, may experience difficulties in the commercial delivery of cargo to the ISS, the NASA Inspector General’s report says.


On what? NASA concerned about anti-Russian sanctions on RD-181 engines


At this time, Orbital ATK, which uses Antares 230 launch vehicles, is responsible for delivering American cargo into space. As part of the first stage of these missiles used Russian engines RD-181, reports RT.

The document states that earlier the US Congress introduced restrictive measures on joint commercial activities with a number of Russian companies, including the supplier of RD-181 - the company "Energomash".

The adopted amendment to the law does not extend sanctions to transactions that Orbital ATK concludes in order to deliver cargoes to the ISS, but it is valid only until 2020. And if it is not renewed, the question of the delivery of US cargo into space will be under threat.

The report also says that Sierra Nevada and SpaceX are working on solving the problem, but Sierra Nevada is experiencing technical difficulties in developing the Dream Chaser ships, and the spaceX version of the SpaceX spacecraft Dragon 2 has not been tested.

It is also reported that Orbital ATK is exploring the possibility of using Vulcan launch vehicles or Next Generation Launch, but they are currently under development, but these missiles may appear only after a couple of years.
Photos used:
http://gazetadaily.ru/
82 comments
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  1. Grandfather Makar
    Grandfather Makar 7 May 2018 13: 14
    +4
    C'mon, don’t be afraid, we’ll take yours from the ISS! ))))
    1. Andrey Yuryevich
      Andrey Yuryevich 7 May 2018 13: 16
      +13
      as in a bad vaudeville ... sanctions are here, sanctions are not here, partners are here, enemies are here ... tired. World SHAPITO.
    2. Vard
      Vard 7 May 2018 13: 19
      +3
      And why ... let them live ... and we will need to carry everything we need to carry for them ... nor anything personal ... just business ...
      1. HMR333
        HMR333 7 May 2018 13: 31
        +2
        you need to transport them all inadequate there!
        1. Reptiloid
          Reptiloid 7 May 2018 13: 42
          +1
          Of course it is necessary to transport. But they will not have their own opportunity. Only through us can. And our benefits may not only material.
        2. Vanek
          Vanek 7 May 2018 14: 48
          +1
          The trouble is Vladimir.

          Not enough space for everyone.

          Vladimir hi
  2. Alexander 3
    Alexander 3 7 May 2018 13: 27
    0
    It’s an interesting thing, the Phillington bigwigs always forget whatsoever, they don’t look so steep under their feet, well, at least they considered cosmonauts in space.
  3. BVS
    BVS 7 May 2018 13: 29
    +6
    Moscow. April 3rd INTERFAX.RU - On Monday, SpaceX launched a Falcon-9 launch vehicle from the Cosmodrome at Cape Canaveral, which is to deliver a Dragon ship with 2,6 tons of cargo to the ISS to the ISS.

    And somehow they get away from Russian engines.
    1. Mwg
      Mwg 7 May 2018 13: 33
      0
      Hooray! If they said so, then this is true.
      1. ventel
        ventel 7 May 2018 13: 43
        +3
        They also write a lot on the fence, but this does not mean that what is written behind the fence. This report will simply speed up the work between the companies for the contract.
    2. Andrey Yuryevich
      Andrey Yuryevich 7 May 2018 13: 34
      0
      Quote: bvs
      Moscow. April 3rd INTERFAX.RU - On Monday, SpaceX launched a Falcon-9 launch vehicle from the Cosmodrome at Cape Canaveral, which is to deliver a Dragon ship with 2,6 tons of cargo to the ISS to the ISS.

      And somehow they get away from Russian engines.

      but nothing that the orbital and mask are different companies?
      1. Ivan Tarava
        Ivan Tarava 7 May 2018 13: 38
        +4
        Is anyone arguing?
      2. BVS
        BVS 7 May 2018 13: 39
        +1
        But nothing -
        "The report also says that Sierra Nevada and SpaceX are working to solve the problem, but Sierra Nevada is experiencing technical difficulties in developing Dream Chaser ships, and the cargo version of SpaceX's Dragon 2 ship has not passed the test."?
        1. milling machine
          milling machine 7 May 2018 14: 53
          +2
          Quote: bvs
          But nothing -
          "The report also says that Sierra Nevada and SpaceX are working to solve the problem, but Sierra Nevada is experiencing technical difficulties in developing Dream Chaser ships, and the cargo version of SpaceX's Dragon 2 ship has not passed the test."?

          I don’t know what nonsense in the article, but SpaceX has been delivering cargo to the ISS for about 5 years.
          Perhaps this article means that there are no manned aircraft yet. There should already be test launches this year.
        2. Vanek
          Vanek 7 May 2018 14: 57
          +1
          Quote: bvs
          launched on monday


          Quote: bvs
          work on solving the problem


          Somehow suspicious.

          Cho launched? wassat Cho flew by? wassat

          We are with a neighbor in the entrance .., Friday evening. Also. We launch rockets laughing laughing laughing

          Victor hi
        3. Wendigo
          Wendigo 7 May 2018 14: 59
          +2
          Quote: bvs
          and the cargo version of SpaceX's Dragon 2 ship did not pass the test. "?

          The cargo version has been working fine for a long time, Dragon 2 is already for live cargo hi
    3. sabakina
      sabakina 7 May 2018 14: 08
      0
      Quote: bvs
      Moscow. April 3rd INTERFAX.RU - On Monday, SpaceX launched a Falcon-9 launch vehicle from the Cosmodrome at Cape Canaveral, which is to deliver a Dragon ship with 2,6 tons of cargo to the ISS to the ISS. And somehow they get away from Russian engines.
      Yeah, and the LV flew to the moon without tests! What for? They are exceptional ...
    4. Wendigo
      Wendigo 7 May 2018 14: 55
      +3
      Quote: bvs
      And somehow they get away from Russian engines.

      So there is no news at all.
      RT clung to the phrase said a long time ago by a bureaucrat from nasa and concocted a typical type.
      If you want, you don’t want, and the spiritual scraper "Americans cannot do without our engines" is left for a short time hi
    5. Tusv
      Tusv 7 May 2018 15: 05
      0
      Quote: bvs
      Moscow. April 3rd INTERFAX.RU - SpaceX launched a Falcon-9 launch vehicle from a launch site at Cape Canaveral on Monday

      Quote: bvs
      And somehow they get away from Russian engines.

      Just the other day they told how much SpaceX is fighting with NASA for launching Dragon on the ISS - 152 megabytes !!! Antares on RD-181 will cost at least twice as cheap
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 7 May 2018 15: 29
        0
        "Antares on RD-181 will cost at least twice as cheap" And what kind of spaceship - a truck flies on Antares?
    6. RelictEmpire
      RelictEmpire 7 May 2018 15: 45
      0
      And what, astronauts can already be transported on a falcon ??? Already allowed?
      1. Mih1974
        Mih1974 8 May 2018 07: 16
        0
        No, and it’s impossible - it’s more terrible there than on the shuttles, it’s too dumb the engine, it can explode when charging, and you can charge it ONLY before the start and with people on board. negative
  4. HMR333
    HMR333 7 May 2018 13: 29
    0
    about which he said that they didn’t do balabol and didn’t do anything sensible quickly! they do not know how! they are used to tying other people's designs and minds! where are those that shouted on the forum that they created their own right now they refuse?
  5. Mwg
    Mwg 7 May 2018 13: 30
    0
    Pancake. And wouldn’t we send Chinese trampolines as a commercial offer to NASA?
  6. BVS
    BVS 7 May 2018 13: 31
    +2
    Quote - "The report also states that Sierra Nevada and SpaceX are working on a solution to the problem, but Sierra Nevada is experiencing technical difficulties in developing Dream Chaser ships, and the cargo version of SpaceX's Dragon 2 ship has not passed the test."

    And what does the SpaceX Dragon truck do not like the author of the article?
    1. milling machine
      milling machine 7 May 2018 14: 55
      +5
      Quote: bvs
      Quote - "The report also states that Sierra Nevada and SpaceX are working on a solution to the problem, but Sierra Nevada is experiencing technical difficulties in developing Dream Chaser ships, and the cargo version of SpaceX's Dragon 2 ship has not passed the test."

      And what does the SpaceX Dragon truck do not like the author of the article?

      Relax - "this is a lecture for collective farmers," that is, an article for Uryakalok.
  7. Corsair0304
    Corsair0304 7 May 2018 13: 34
    +3
    Come on?! Seriously, bothered? But what about the Russian astronaut from Armageddon, with a cap with earflaps and a star? Nevertheless, they recognized that without our engines no one would fly anywhere. Oh, these merikos with their principle "Nothing personal, only business" .. Mother will sell her mother and not frown ..


    1. Vanek
      Vanek 7 May 2018 14: 59
      +1
      Quote: Corsair0304
      in a cap with earflaps and with a star?


      In my opinion, he was still drunk ... No?
  8. Yrec
    Yrec 7 May 2018 13: 35
    +2
    Engines "under development" in a couple of years will not appear. In the space sector, such work lasts TENS years. The same goes for all sorts of Sierra Nevada and SpaceX. Our RD-180/181 is from the time of Tsar Gorokh, and no alternative has been created for them with mattresses.
    1. BVS
      BVS 7 May 2018 13: 40
      0
      Moscow. April 3rd INTERFAX.RU - On Monday, SpaceX launched a Falcon-9 launch vehicle from the Cosmodrome at Cape Canaveral, which is to deliver a Dragon ship with 2,6 tons of cargo to the ISS to the ISS.
      And somehow they get away from Russian engines.
      1. Yrec
        Yrec 7 May 2018 18: 06
        0
        They would manage - they would not use RD-181, they have been trying to refuse it for a long time.
    2. Ivan Tarava
      Ivan Tarava 7 May 2018 13: 41
      +1
      Murakans bought all the rights to the RD-180 engine. In fact, this is their engine.
      1. faridg7
        faridg7 7 May 2018 14: 06
        +2
        The engine can have them, and our production base. They can wipe their rights to this engine, without our production facilities, except in Energomash they will not assemble this engine anywhere, and if they do, it will not be very soon.
      2. Wendigo
        Wendigo 7 May 2018 15: 02
        0
        Quote: Ivan Tarava
        Murakans bought all the rights to the RD-180 engine. In fact, this is their engine.

        Rather, a particular private company bought, no need to generalize, space in the United States is an open business for all who can.
      3. Mih1974
        Mih1974 8 May 2018 07: 20
        0
        Zvizdesh and provocation, Merikasy bought - The right to make a copy of this engine !!, but in no way do these rights restrict "Energy" from making and selling this engine right and left.
        1. Golovan Jack
          Golovan Jack 8 May 2018 07: 44
          0
          Quote: Mih1974
          bought merikas - The right to make a copy of this engine !!, but in no way do these rights limit "Energy" to make and sell this engine right and left

          Your ignorance (and cheating) sometimes touches.
          The engine is not needed neither "right" nor "left". It is imprisoned under the American Atoas, and there is nothing more to put it on.
          The rights to use this engine belong to the Americans. That is, no one will buy it in a healthy mind and solid memory, even if someone suddenly needs it. But he ... will not be needed.
          That something like this.
          By the way - what about the Central Bank, treasury, the Ministry of Finance and Eurobonds at 6%? I, like, chewed everything for you, but judging by your statements yesterday, it didn’t reach you ... symptomatically, however wink
        2. Ivan Tarava
          Ivan Tarava 8 May 2018 10: 03
          +1
          Well, where do you come from? Well, I understand that you are not an expert, but at least read the available materials. Well, just to fart.
    3. Vadim237
      Vadim237 7 May 2018 14: 29
      0
      "The work lasts TENS years." - In the USA everything happens faster with this.
    4. Wendigo
      Wendigo 7 May 2018 15: 21
      0
      Quote: Yrec
      The same goes for all sorts of Sierra Nevada and SpaceX.

      Where are you from ... dense then? And this is in the age of the Internet ... repeat
      Where does SpaceX have Russian engines in? And at Brexton (recently for the 6th time in a row he successfully tested his rocket with a ready-made ship, and even the steps he set as Musk), where is RD 180 screwed on? Continue to continue?
      RD 180 was bought by an American private company at an international tender in 1996.
      Not because America does not have one and cannot do it, but because she PRIVATE bought something cheaper hi
      1. Yrec
        Yrec 7 May 2018 18: 04
        +1
        Read the comments more carefully, I did not say that SpaceX has Russian engines, I talked about the development-test-development-development cycle and the timing for all this.
  9. intuzazist
    intuzazist 7 May 2018 13: 42
    0
    Quote: bvs
    And somehow bypassed by Russian engines

    And the launch price tag was doubled, compared to the Russian ones! Up to 156 lyam ................
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 7 May 2018 14: 30
      0
      Who and when raised?
  10. AnpeL
    AnpeL 7 May 2018 13: 50
    +1
    the time will come and America will develop its own steps, which will be much better than RD. what will we boast about next, what can we offer more.
    1. faridg7
      faridg7 7 May 2018 14: 10
      +1
      Quote: AnpeL
      the time will come and America will develop its own steps, which will be much better than RD. what will we boast about next, what can we offer more.

      We are approaching a detonation engine, but I really want to hope that they will not be offered it, it’s time to use our own developments.
      1. Klaus
        Klaus 7 May 2018 14: 40
        +4
        Which approach? On the same as a megawatt class YERD?
        1. faridg7
          faridg7 7 May 2018 14: 49
          +1
          Well, of course, a draft of two tons seems insignificant to you, but this is still an experiment (successful I must say), work is going on. The engine is not a five-minute business, this business cannot be solved just by throwing a bunch of dough - it certainly is necessary, but work is needed and it goes
        2. faridg7
          faridg7 7 May 2018 14: 52
          +1
          And the engine created it touched for many decades. Remember the B2 diesel - it was also installed on the T34, and its modifications are still being put on armored vehicles and it has been working successfully and will work for a long time.
          1. AnpeL
            AnpeL 7 May 2018 15: 23
            +2
            Russia will never have either a detonation or a nuclear power engine. but cartoons with them will show us
            1. faridg7
              faridg7 7 May 2018 16: 16
              +2
              Oh, some of you pissimism squirts straight.
              The detonation engine was not seen in cartoons but on video, and the nuclear dviglo in the USSR was installed on the AN-22,
    2. Vlad.by
      Vlad.by 7 May 2018 14: 45
      0
      That's when the time comes, then they will be offered a steeper engine.
      In the meantime, let the cement for the "steps" interfere.
      They pick it for a long time in a bucket.
  11. steelmaker
    steelmaker 7 May 2018 13: 51
    +2
    In the field of space, all cooperation must be stopped with the United States. I agree, it will be bad for us, but the United States will be even worse! Our government will be forced to support our companies, and Nabiulina may invest less money in the USA! Instead, closer cooperation with China is needed, they have no less money than the United States. Stop supplying the United States with our space technology!
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 7 May 2018 14: 41
      +5
      Than? Orbital will get bogged down. ULA (Atlas) - it will survive calmly they have accumulated a reserve of engines, plus they are now doing a new Vulcan rocket with Bezos. Already using all his own, including the new BE-4 engines, which Rogozin will most likely have to queue for, because there are no analogues.

      Again, what is there?
      Musk - will send a nominal gilded Tesla Rogozin and Putin, if that happens. After all, the Mask is sprinkled with the most delicious federal orders, where there is a different level of dough and profit.

      ULA - they basically have enough stock to the Volcano.

      Bezos is already at the finish line for his rocket, again the BE-4 engines, again together with ULA, do (end-to-end cooperation and partnership).

      Their missiles, which are too expensive in the current conditions and have been cut. But if the cheap option disappears, then money for expensive missiles will be found:
      Minotaur and Delta Heavy.

      Therefore, it will definitely not be worse in the USA. Yes, they will spend a little extra money. But I’m at 100% sure that the federal order (satellites) will be fulfilled completely, even if all relations are broken right now.
      1. asiat_61
        asiat_61 7 May 2018 14: 55
        0
        for there are no analogues ..... Without analogs they flew to the Moon, brought a petrified piece of wood from there, and gave it to the Amsterdam Museum. And yes, there is no alternative !!!!
    2. Klaus
      Klaus 7 May 2018 15: 06
      0
      1. Probably in Roscosmos they’re not completely stupid, because, despite all the sanctions, they are trying to get into the project of the Lunar Orbital Station.
      2. I suppose that NASA also has smart people who understand that sanctions are the business of politicians, and in space exploration, cooperation with Russia is historical, long-standing, and productive.
      3. Cooperation between Russia and the United States in space grew out of the space race of the second half of the 20th century. Within its framework, design schools were built, competition and original ideas were born. And after the collapse of the USSR, the Americans did not want to interrupt this process. That's why Boeing paid for the assembly of our module Zarya, for the ISS.
      4. What “capriciousness” turns into can be cited as a case in point: at the beginning of the 00s, Elon Musk turned to our space officials with a proposal of his ideas, was ridiculed and left with nothing. Now, after 15 years, all-space trampoline Rogozin openly declares that we need to learn from the Mask.
      5. Finally, cooperation with China ... How do you see this? They copied the bulk of our launch vehicles and the Union, the operating time on the modules of the orbital stations, and launched the man into space. From us they need only one thing: scientific design thought and some developments on Energy, and all that relates to hydrogen levels. Everything else they have, and is developing by leaps and bounds. It will not be cooperation, but a one-goal game.
      1. Vlad.by
        Vlad.by 8 May 2018 09: 46
        0
        How do you imagine the process of copying rockets in China? It was not without legal transfer of drawings and information. Well, illegal from the territory of 404. But this is the Chinese ceiling. It’s not possible to jump for a long time, because there are no fundamental principles and will not appear in the near future.
  12. onix757
    onix757 7 May 2018 13: 52
    +4
    Yes, they are not worried about anything. The rights to the engine belong to the Americans, and Energomash will be bent without nasa orders.
    1. Vlad.by
      Vlad.by 8 May 2018 09: 50
      0
      Are they right to fly into space?
      Moreover, they have no rights. In addition to the right to produce on its territory. There are drawings, but no technology. That didn’t work out, sir.
      As a result, only net imports from Russia.
  13. krops777
    krops777 7 May 2018 14: 11
    0
    It is also reported that Orbital ATK is exploring the possibility of using Vulcan launch vehicles or Next Generation Launch, but they are currently under development, but these missiles may appear only after a couple of years.


    In the meantime, let the trampoline be used to deliver goods. laughing
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 7 May 2018 14: 33
      +4
      Cargo on the ISS delivers:
      Roscosmos - Progress - 2-3 ships per year.
      Musk - Dragon - 3-4 ship per year. And this is the only reusable truck. For example, the mission CRS-14 - the ship flew in the mission CRS-8 (in 16 year), and the rocket in CRS-12 in 17 year. And if the rocket was utilized by landing (they go to BlockNUMX - the old ones are broken / drowned / made targets for the US Air Force), then the ship got on and will fly again -https: //www.nasaspaceflight.com/5/2018/dragons-
      crs-14-conclude-splashdown-pacific-ocean /


      Kounotori is the thickest and most greasy truck flying today. Made in Japan. Drags like two Progresses. But it was contracted for 1 per year - this year the Kounotori-7 flies in August, according to the plan, it will carry as many 6280kg of cargo (the previous Kounotori-6 has brought 5920kg).

      Actually Zingus from Orbital - 2 ship flies per year. Carrier Atlas and Antares230.


      Of this, only Tsingus is threatened. At the same time, the Japanese can make 2 ships per year - if there is a contract with the lag in 2 of the year. Musk can also increase flights - if there is a contract.
  14. morpogr
    morpogr 7 May 2018 14: 14
    +1
    The more sanctions, the higher the price tag for engines and delivery to the ISS.
  15. morpogr
    morpogr 7 May 2018 14: 18
    0
    The more sanctions, the higher the price tag for engines and delivery to the ISS. Business is so business. winked
  16. A. Privalov
    A. Privalov 7 May 2018 14: 25
    +5
    As I recall, General Dynamic held a new tender, which was won by two US companies. United Launch Services, which, starting from 2019, will begin to supply the Vulcan BE-4 engine, which will replace the RD-180. And Aerojet Rocketdyne, which will develop the next generation of fundamentally new engines, which in turn will replace the Vulcan BE-4.

    And the US Congress, in order to insure itself because of the sanctions and create a reserve for the transitional period, allowed Energomash to release 18 RD more. The latest RD in history.

    That is, in fact, what lies behind the headline "NASA is concerned about anti-Russian sanctions against the engines."
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 7 May 2018 14: 34
      +1
      "The last taxiways in history" - And then probably everyone will take off on antigravics.
      1. A. Privalov
        A. Privalov 7 May 2018 14: 44
        +1
        Quote: Vadim237
        "The last taxiways in history" - And then probably everyone will take off on antigravics.

        Either the companies that won the tender will fulfill their obligations, or they will adapt some devices from Mask and will fly on what they have. They will not stop their program, that's for sure. hi
    2. Vlad.by
      Vlad.by 8 May 2018 09: 53
      +1
      Let's wait for 19 of the year and only then talk about concerns.
      BE4 has never taken off.
      1. A. Privalov
        A. Privalov 8 May 2018 09: 56
        0
        Quote: Vlad.by
        Let's wait for 19 of the year and only then talk about concerns.
        BE4 has never taken off.

        "We are waiting ..." (c) hi
        1. Vlad.by
          Vlad.by 8 May 2018 14: 48
          0
          By the way, BE4 is never an analog of RD180. So even if it flies in the 19th, which I VERY doubt, it will not work to replace the taxiway anyway. And it weighs more, and traction is significantly less ...
          In general, it is not clear with what fright BE4 suddenly began to be called a replacement for taxiways.
          Apparently there is simply nothing to offer, but on the lack of fish, as they say ... :-)
          So really, wait, sir
  17. Swetliy
    Swetliy 7 May 2018 14: 45
    +1
    Let them fly on balloons. Like Winnie the Pooh !!!
  18. Altona
    Altona 7 May 2018 14: 51
    0
    Without the "technologically backward" Russia, all this cunning venture start-up business on Chinese batteries and decommissioned nifig electric motors does not work.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 7 May 2018 15: 33
      0
      What are you talking about?
  19. Altona
    Altona 7 May 2018 14: 51
    0
    Quote: Swetliy
    Let them fly on balloons. Like Winnie the Pooh !!!

    ----------------------------
    Let Werner Von Braun be cloned as an option ...
  20. raw174
    raw174 7 May 2018 14: 57
    +3
    Yes, they will not be left without space. Tighten and make your engine. It was just cheaper to buy from us ...
    1. farcop
      farcop 7 May 2018 15: 55
      +1
      Quote: raw174
      It was just cheaper to buy from us ...
      E no, after the trampoline a new contract time will not be concluded.
  21. Sands Careers General
    Sands Careers General 7 May 2018 21: 12
    +1
    So where is your Elon Musk, who is already tuned to Mars in the coming years?

    To hang out, it’s easier than farting in the mattress, and on the show off of the USA ahead of the rest laughing
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 7 May 2018 22: 24
      0
      The first flight of a manned ship, scheduled for the end of this year.
      1. Sands Careers General
        Sands Careers General 7 May 2018 23: 07
        +1
        Well, let's see))
    2. Evgeny Goncharov
      Evgeny Goncharov 8 May 2018 08: 12
      0
      usa on show off, general, as always, the leader on farting

      recall that Musk in 2014 through the court demanded the rejection of the ULA rd-180?
      1. Vlad.by
        Vlad.by 8 May 2018 10: 00
        +1
        Musk promised a lot.
        He even built a plant of "eternal" batteries.
        And?
        Actually, Tesla is no different in principle from the electric cars of the banal BMW or Toyota.
        And in space, in addition to heavy landing paws, due to the displayed cargo and the banal electronic AU system, there is nothing at all when landing! As a result, the near bankruptcy of the searchlight.
        Is there anything to object to?
        1. Evgeny Goncharov
          Evgeny Goncharov 8 May 2018 18: 03
          0
          discuss your sweet fantasies with anyone other than me, have you agreed?
  22. gaura
    gaura 8 May 2018 10: 12
    +1
    Something did not understand, but what about Ilon our dear Max? He built his pepelats and launched it somewhere there, and as if even then landed. Someone is clearly lying or he has a horse price tag. And if he has such a price tag, then ours generally work at a loss, so there are crazy debts
    1. Evgeny Goncharov
      Evgeny Goncharov 10 May 2018 12: 09
      0
      Ilon, our dear Musk, filed a lawsuit against ULA back in 2014 to ban the use of the RD-180. There are few orders from NASA.
      1. gaura
        gaura 10 May 2018 12: 29
        0
        So still our work at a loss