Military Review

"Not your fault." Cruisers losers "Variag" and "Aurora"

389
В stories Russian fleet not many ships that know almost everything. Ships, the mere mention of which evokes pride in the heart of Russian sailors. “Upstairs, you comrades, everything is in place ...” and “Dozing off the quiet northern city ...” Yes, the songs. Especially the first one.


Probably, if today you ask any citizen of the USSR, Russia or the former Soviet republics which ships of the Russian fleet are the most famous, the most popular, then there will be two cruisers on the list: the Varyag and the Aurora.

Today we want to look from the heights of the past years not so much on the ships themselves as on the karma. If the ships have it (and there is an opinion that there is).

And, most importantly, the understanding of the feat as such. Naturally, on the basis of everything, a few words will go to advertising.

Begin.

So, the two armored cruisers, the Varyag and the Aurora, both belonged to the first-class cruisers, actually the same age as the construction time. The first is in 1901, the second is in 1903. “Varyag” is a pure-blooded American, “Aurora” is Russian.





Even according to their characteristics, they were approximately equal. Yes, the Varyag had (theoretically) greater speed and cruising range (approximately thousands of miles on the 2), but it was built to order for the Pacific Squadron. The Aurora, for the quiet execution of tasks in the Baltic “puddle”, had a mad range and was not required.

Armament difference was, "Varyag" had a bigger and more impressive in terms of guns and torpedo tubes.

But everyone can see the characteristics himself, there are no secrets here. More important than the other. And we are not talking about what the crews of the ships did in the first place, but how it is perceived today.

If the "Varyag" is perceived unequivocally as a ship-hero, then about the "Aurora" there are many often opposing opinions. Part of society is in favor of preserving the ship-museum for educating young people on heroic examples of seafarers' exploits. The other part is in favor of cutting the ship "into needles" as a part, quite a large part, of the revolution. The October Revolution, which stirred up not only Russian, but also world history, changed the structure of the world in general.



At the very beginning of perestroika, aboard the Aurora, I heard a conversation between two veterans of the fleet on Navy Day. Judging by the form, simple sailors from the past. Then I was struck by one phrase.

"This is how one shot crossed the battle path of a deserved ship" ...

How so? I knew from childhood that the Aurora was the cruiser of the revolution. I knew that the sailors from the Aurora actively participated in the revolutionary movement. Just as he knew about the hero cruiser "Varyag".

It is sad to realize this, but today most of the young people know the history of these cruisers from the “national history of Wikipedia”. At best, that is, God forbid EGE, one of the 100 thousands. Historical sources? Come on, why, when there are comments "experts" from the Internet?

And then, the whole past is generally “political”, which means uninteresting.

And just the real history of cruisers is not just interesting, but even indicative. And he says that not only the Bolsheviks were masters to lie — to embellish — to embellish and frankly to stir up from scratch.

We emphasize very boldly, this is not about the sailors of the crews and their combat work. It's about completely different things.

"Heroic death of" Varyag "..."

"Not your fault." Cruisers losers "Variag" and "Aurora"

The cruiser "Varyag" and the battleship "Poltava" on the port of Port Arthur


Almost everything is known about the feat of "Varyag". Especially for those who do not believe the comments "historians." For the rest, the story is already beautifully changed. And not in 1954, but much earlier.

27 January 1904, a Japanese squadron consisting of 1 armored, 5 light cruisers and 8 destroyers, blocked the Russian cruiser Varyag and Korean gunboat Korem in the Korean port of Chemulpo (now Incheon). Japanese admiral Uriu made a demand for Russian sailors to leave the port. Otherwise, the ships will be attacked right in the raid.



On the roads of this neutral port were “not in the works” French, American, Italian ships. In the upcoming turmoil would get to everyone, without exception, Tsushima was not there, the ability of the Japanese to shoot exactly everyone doubted.

Not that panic, but Rudnev made it clear that the Russian-Japanese showdown to all to the waterline.

To sail to the Varyag and the Koreans, it was necessary to go through a narrow 20-mile fairway under the fire of Japanese ships. This was understood, and the captain of "Varyag" Rudnev, and the Japanese admiral Uriu. This understood all the sailors and officers. Admiral Uriu issued an ultimatum about the surrender of ships. But the Russians decided to fight.

We will not describe the course of the battle every minute. This is really a fight! Only an hour of fierce shelling in both directions. Or a whole hour? Just a few quotes from the report of Rudnev. The report as a document is very controversial, it is clear that Rudnev was then largely caught in the wrong, but still:

"In 11 hours 45 minutes from the cruiser" Asama "was made the first shot from the 8-inch gun, followed by the entire squadron opened fire."

"... having done the shooting, they opened fire on the Asama from the 45 cable distance. One of the first Japanese shells, hitting the cruiser, destroyed the upper bridge, made a fire in the navigator's cabin, and killed the focus guys, and the rangefinder officer michman was killed Count Nirod and all the range finders of the station №1 (at the end of the battle one hand of Count Nyrod was found holding a range finder) "...

"... Having convinced after the cruiser was inspected that it was impossible to join the battle and not wanting to give the enemy a chance to defeat the half-destroyed cruiser, the general meeting of officers decided to sink the cruiser, bringing the wounded and the rest of the crew to foreign ships, to which the latter expressed their full consent as a result of my request." ...


Today it is not fashionable to quote Russian emperors. We will break this tradition. Moreover, we quote not a throne speech, but a toast. It was the toast that Nicholas II delivered at the gala dinner at the Winter Palace in April 1904:

"I am happy, brothers, to see you all healthy and safely returned. Many of you brought with your blood in the annals of our fleet a deed worthy of the exploits of your ancestors, grandfathers and fathers who carried them out on the Azov and Mercury; now you added a new page in the history of our fleet, added the names of Varyag and Koreans to them. They will also become immortal. I am confident that each of you will remain worthy of the award that I have given you to the end of your service. All of Russia and I read about those with love and trepidation odvigah that you have revealed a Chemulpo. I sincerely thank you, that was supported by the honor and dignity of the St. Andrew's flag Great Holy Russia. I drink to the future of our glorious victory of the fleet. To your health, my friends! "

This is the beautiful story of the feat of "Varyag". But the reaction of the officers of the imperial fleet of Russia, and of the army in general, is embarrassing. Reading their memoirs, you understand that the feat of "Varyag", from the point of view of naval officers, is rather a crime. And the actions of the cruiser commander, to put it mildly, are not professional. And frankly speaking - are criminal. And Rudnev's place is not in the gallery of honor, but in the dock.

The fact is that, according to the Maritime Regulations of the Russian Empire, the surrender of a ship or its sinking without a fight is an official crime. Recall, "Varyag" was flooded in shallow water after damage assessment. After battle. Flooded, but not blown. That allowed the Japanese to raise the ship and enter it into their own fleet as early as next year.

There are other questions for Rudnev. Why did the cruiser "Varyag" go into battle with the low-speed gun "Koreyets"? The commander of "Varyag" decided to strengthen his own artillery with cannons from the "Koreyets"? Or did it under the brand of protection of the Korean crew, which is brilliantly executed, no losses, decided not to take advantage of the cruiser in speed?

There is no answer to even more simple question. And what prevented the "Varyag" to go out to sea at night? The speed of the ship allowed it to go into the open sea and already there to give if not a serious battle to the enemy, then a full turn?

Chance, by the way, was. No matter how they criticized the American boilers, for a short time Varyag could give out not its usual 16 nodes, but the declared 24. Or the 12 node shown on the 1900 hourly tests in the 23,2 year.

Of the entire Japanese gang, only the “English” “Chiyoda” and “Asama” could oppose something in terms of speed. 20-21 node.


The cruiser "Chiyoda"



The cruiser "Asama"


Yes, there were destroyers. We look at the list of weapons "Varyag" and we understand that the destroyers did not shine, if you get under fire. But this is the third question.


Commander "Varyag" V.F. Rudnev


Rudnev is clearly not Ushakov. Not for nothing in the memoirs of the navigator "Varyag" Barenz mentioned the expectation of a close military tribunal for the officers of the ship to return to their homeland.

But then questions arise to Emperor Nicholas. How to toast? So what is the unprecedented award for officers and lower ranks for the Russian Empire? Never in Russia for the feat, whatever he was, not awarded twice or even three times. This is without taking into account all kinds of gifts and other honors.

Need to be reminded of the awards. All officers and civilians were awarded the Orders of St. George 4 degree. The lower ranks are awarded the insignia of the Military Order 4 degree (two 3 degrees).

Further, all participants of the battle were awarded a special medal "For the battle" Varyag "and" Koreytsa ". In addition, the officers received regular orders with swords. All the lower ranks of the emperor were given a personalized clock! And a specially released set of dishes from the royal dinner all invited pick up as a memento.

But that's not all! In the 1954 year, already in the USSR, the surviving 15 sailors from Varyag and Korey were awarded the Soviet Medal For Courage in honor of the 50 anniversary of the battle! Later, 139 veterans from the Varyag and the Korey were awarded orders and medals.

What conclusion can be drawn from the information found?

Alas, those veterans were right. The feat can be "done" far from the battlefield. It is enough to use the press, state encouragement, state resources in general. And Nicholas II did just that in 1904.

Nikolai did not succeed in the Russian-Japanese war, to put it mildly. Needed feats. And the feat of "Varyag", the feat of the lower ranks with the complete lack of professionalism of the command was specifically "promoted" in the media of that time. Moreover, he was "promoted" at the state level.

Familiar? Full

Here is how not to recall the claims against Stalin and Soviet leaders. About the "made-up" feats and so on. Who did you study? That's it ...

But even with all the power of propaganda of that time, the feat of “Varyag” and “Koreyets” negatively affected the morale of the army. It is possible, perhaps with some stretch, to talk about the first discredit of Russian orders and medals.

True, time, the best doctor, has nevertheless done its work. Today, the history of “Varyag” has been studied for the majority by the songs “Cold waves are splashing” and “Our proud Varyag does not surrender to the Enemy.” And we still perceive the feat as a sailor’s feat. The feat of the simple Russian men. ) and went into battle for superior enemy forces.

And Rudnev ... As a commander - a very ambiguous character, to be honest. Through 100 and more, his “feat” in general looks doubtful. On the verge of betrayal, to be honest.

Yes, I went to sea, I think I took the fight. Well shot at the enemy, at least. Framed the cruiser under the shells, spoiled slightly.


"Varyag" and "Koreyets" go into battle. Shot from the cruiser "Talbot"


And returning, flooded. He did not blow up the cellars, so that the enemy wouldn’t get it exactly, as in the case of the Korean, but quietly flooded in shallow water.

Probably, it was easier to raise later. We do not specify to whom, although they were Japanese.



By the way, you can also talk about the Order of the Rising Sun. For what? An hour of courage? Or for "cruising" the cruiser?

Here it is worth remembering that in the ever-memorable 1905 year, “Varyag” was not only that the Japanese were raised, exactly one and a half years later, the 8 of August was also put into operation. In 1907 year.



And until the sale back to Russia under the name "Soy" from 1907 to April 1916, he successfully and decently trained Japanese seamen in marine business.

The Japanese mister Rudnev accepted the order ... He did not wear it, but he accepted it ...

Of course, it could be worse. For the ship, I mean. As "Poltava" and "Admiral Ushakov" it was possible to shoot the Chinese main caliber. But carried, as it is.

If in general - the hour of battle and eternal glory. "And the waves of the sea will glorify the heroic death of the" Varyag "for centuries ...".

Well, not very (which, not at all) heroic, and even more so, the further service of the ship and even more. Sailors and others (except Rudnev)? Yes of course. In an hour of battle, then glory is more than enough.

Plus, then, at the beginning of the First World War, full-fledged gold was paid for the “heroically dead” ships, so necessary for Russia for a new war.


Arrival in Vladivostok redeemed ships. "Varyag", "Poltava", "Peresvet"


The worse were the sailors and commanders from the "Admiral Ushakov", "Pearls", "Oleg" - the question.

But the fact is that we are dealing with ordinary PR. We needed heroes, anyway. The war was actually lost. You can argue, but alas, difficult. That, in fact, rushed. You can say a lot about the fact that the Bolsheviks in 1941 invented heroes, in 1904 the monarchists were no better.

“What do you dream about, cruiser Aurora?”



And what about the cruiser of the revolution? After all, "Aurora" also participated in the Russian-Japanese war. Moreover, it was for this that the heroic transition to the Far East from St. Petersburg could be accomplished for this, but ... This cruiser was clearly intended for another and not just "cruising" in the Indian and Pacific Oceans.

So, the commander of the cruiser, Captain First Rank Yevgeny Romanovich Egorev. Commanded to the "Aurora" four ships. All ships were great. Specialist precisely in the eastern seas and the Pacific Ocean.



The ship was enlisted in the squadron of Rear Admiral Z. Rozhenstvensky. In September, 1904 was sent to rescue Russian troops in Port Arthur. What the Aurora crew did during the transition is still admirable. The ship in the field of coal loading invariably took on board a double rate. 1300 tons! And into the ocean ...

Do not climb into the memoirs, but believe me, there are only memories of crew coherence and good fighting spirit. It is clear that they could then rewrite it, but ... On the conscience of those who wrote.


Crew rest in tropical latitudes



Equator crossing


At Tsushima squadron met with the Japanese. The squadron was defeated. Everyone knows that. And what about "Aurora"? And Aurora was 6-hour battle. Protection of transports. 6 hours of fights with the enemy. And not just the enemy, there really was enough above the roof. Detachments of cruisers Virgo, Uriu (who had already tasted the victory over the "Varyag") and Togo Jr. 6 hours of continuous shelling.

The captain of the first rank Yegoryev was killed. Killed 14 sailors. Wounded 83 person. But the ship lived and fought.

For comparison, the losses on the Varyag were more substantial: 1 officer and 30 sailors were killed, 6 officers and 85 sailors were wounded and shell-shocked, and about 100 people were slightly injured.


The famous photo, which was presented with respect to the relatives of Yegoryev, the crew of the cruiser. The frame of the charred boards of the deck, the mat of the sheathing, torn by a projectile.

If this is not a manifestation of the team’s highest respect for their commander, then we don’t even know what to count as respect.

It is possible that Rear-Admiral Enquist, the commander of the Russian cruisers detachment, was “guilty” of the lesser losses of the Russian seamen, who “had to perform difficult maneuvering in order to change the distance to the enemy as often as possible and not let him shoot him.

And then there were the Philippines, where the "on the teeth" team dragged their pretty battered ship.









On the Philippine Islands, the Aurora, along with other ships (the Oleg and Zhemchug) was interned at the request of the US government and with the personal permission of Nicholas II. There the ship met the end of the war and the signing of the Portsmouth Treaty. During the internment, the crew healed the wounds, both their own and the ship. October 10 1905, the Aurora headed for Russia.



Yes, the ship is already outdated by the First World War. Yes, he did not possess firepower. He did not have the speed. But, paradox, he fought. As part of the Baltic Fleet's cruiser brigade 2, the Aurora carried out patrol service, laid mines, covered patrols, destroyed enemy airplanes, covered minesweepers. The ship was in combat service.

By the fall of 1916, the ship was thoroughly “worn out” and stopped for repairs. That is why the crew of the cruiser and took an active part in the February revolution. Actually, it is not necessary to say that a crew that is not busy with business is not the best in itself.



At this time, something happened that is little talked about in modern history. The cruiser commander, captain of the first rank Nikolsky and the senior officer of the cruiser Ogranovich, restoring order on the deck, opened fire from the revolvers at the sailors. Two people were injured easily, one mortally.

Nikolsky and Ogranovich paid dearly for it. They were killed by sailors for refusing to carry a red flag. Nikolsky - a shot to the head, Ogranovich - a blow of the bayonet in the throat.

So, actually, the crew of the cruiser also became “red”, subsequently taking part in rallies and other events of the Bolsheviks.

Well, actually, the “same” single shot of 25 October 1917 of the year ... As a result.

It is difficult to say how the fate of the Aurora would have been. The cruiser, which was already obsolete in World War I, by the end of the 30-s, having made several long trips as a training ship, became simply unsuitable for operation. It was decided to write off the ship and assign its name to the new cruiser. But ... war prevented.

"Aurora" became the floating base of the submarines of the Baltic Fleet. The guns from the cruiser removed. It was these 130-mm guns that became the famous batteries, which stood between the village of Mozhaisk (Dudergof) and Kiev highway. Battery "A" - "Aurora". 12 kilometers of fascist death. And sailor, too. Almost none of this battery survived.





By the way, some of the readers remember about the rarity of the defense of Leningrad, the armored train Baltiets. The main weapon of the armored train, the 130-mm gun, was also from the Aurora! And the ships of the Peipsi military flotilla were mostly armed with small-caliber Auror guns.







But the cruiser, even without basic weapons, fought. In the city of Lomonosov (Oranienbaum), eyewitness accounts of the actions of the Aurora sailors against the German aviation. And about the downed planes. It was in Oranienbaum that the cruiser received "mortal" wounds. The hull of the ship was pierced in many places with bombs and shells. There was a danger of turning over to the starboard side (the roll reached 23 degrees).



The crew of the ship turned the ship into a fortress, opening the Kingston on the port side and landing the cruiser on the ground on an even keel. And in this position the ship continued to fight until September 1944, and only then was transferred for repairs to Leningrad.

True, again, not lucky captain. Seeing the senselessness of the crew’s continued stay aboard the ship, the captain of the 3 rank Sakov, with his power, placed the sailors in a safe place on the shore, leaving a permanent watch on the Aurora against anti-aircraft guns. For this, the cruiser commander was arrested and soon shot on charges of "panicking" and "fleeing from the ship."

It is clear that such stories happened and will happen a lot during the war. But a simple question arises. Why does no one tell young people about the history of the Aurora after the “historical shot”?

The cruiser hero "Varyag", which is forbidden to touch someone and sometime. And the “cruiser of the revolution” “Aurora”, to whom a place in the dustbin of history, as some ...

The cruiser, which in its combat life really fought for about an hour, and the cruiser, who fought three (!) Wars. Did not participate in the war, namely, he fought!

And here the question arises: who are the heroes? Who should we exalt and set as an example?

No, it is clear that "the waves of the sea will glorify the heroic death of the" Varyag "for centuries ...". Or maybe all the same people? Moreover, the heroic death of a very Krivoruk executed cruiser flooding can only be called a very stubborn propagandist.

People. There are no complaints about the sailors of "Varyag". But since we are talking about people, what can you say about the sailors "Aurora"? Those that fought at Tsushima. Those who fought in the First World War on the Baltic. Those who were in the Great Patriotic War, having fired the last shell, took a rifle in their hands, because the Germans had already broken into the position of the battery.

But those sailors, veterans might well be right. Sometime there must come a time when you have to prove the opposite. And not on written scripts, but on human affairs. Maybe? Full

Today, the value of that idle shot no longer seems to be something epochal. If it’s really serious, yes, the shot was more likely a political thing for which you can be praised, but ...

But there were hundreds of other shots. Under Tsushima, in the Moonsund Archipelago, near Leningrad and in the Leningrad sky, stained with black crosses of airplanes. And the lives of sailors, burnt in the fire of three wars.

What is more valuable? What you need to remember? And what will we remember?
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  1. Do not care
    Do not care 13 May 2018 06: 28
    +18
    The squadron commander during the Tsushima battle, Admiral Rozhestvensky, gave all his ships nicknames. He called Aurora - “Prostitute sub-fence”

    And one more interesting detail: among the equipment for the ship’s infirmary on the cruiser there was an X-ray unit (!!! 1904!). It was used to diagnose sick and wounded crew members during the campaign of the squadron to the Far East and after the Tsushima battle. This was the first in the world practice application of fluoroscopy in ship conditions.
    1. Amurets
      Amurets 13 May 2018 08: 48
      +7
      Quote: Do not care
      It was used to diagnose sick and wounded crew members during the campaign of the squadron to the Far East and after the Tsushima battle. This was the first in the world practice application of fluoroscopy in ship conditions.
      Yes, in his memoirs, the doctor of Aurora Kravchenko mentions this.
      The book of VS Kravchenko's memoirs "Across the Three Oceans" about the first war of Aurora is interesting: "But there was nothing to do; the order had to be carried out." So, Vladimir Semenovich continued, - the lot was cast. The fate of "Aurora" is my fate ... The first impression of "Aurora" is the most favorable. The team is cheerful, vigorous, looks straight into the eyes, and not from under the forehead; he does not walk on the deck, but flies straight ahead, following orders. All this is gratifying to see ... But the examination of the medical unit led to complete despondency ... There is no infirmary. What was the infirmary, the operating room, was filled up to the ceiling with sacks of breadcrumbs!
      Nevertheless, V. S. Kravchenko fairly evaluated the initiative of his predecessor to transfer the infirmary from the stuffy rooms of the living deck to the battery room, which allowed to double its area and make a number of changes to its equipment.
      On board the Aurora, Vladimir Semenovich traveled with the squadron all the way that ended in the Tsushima accident. "
      And do not forget the other contribution of Aurora to the development of the fleet, as a training ship on which both the cadets of the Naval Cadet Corps and the cadets of the Naval School named after Frunze underwent practical training. See Polenov: "Cruiser Aurora"
      1. BAI
        BAI 13 May 2018 09: 44
        +15
        Admiral Rozhdestvensky was a rather unusual person. Among the lots of "whims" of the admiral was the following - he had the habit of giving nicknames entrusted to him by warships, very far from examples of elegant literature. So, the cruiser “Admiral Nakhimov” was called “Idiot”, the battleship “Sisoy the Great” - “Wheelchair refuge”, and so on. The squadron included two ships with female names - the former yacht Svetlana and Aurora. The commander called the first cruiser the "Maid", and the Aurora was awarded the title "Prostitute sub-fence".
        1. Safevi
          Safevi 13 May 2018 10: 05
          +5
          Thanks to the author. Great article!
          1. Proxima
            Proxima 13 May 2018 14: 41
            +32
            Quote: sefevi
            Thanks to the author. Great article!

            When we still stop shy from side to side, chasing the "sensational" fried facts. and paranoid perverting the well-known.
            So let's turn to them all the same!
            On the Chemulpo raid there were Italian, American, Korean and English ships, as well as the Japanese cruiser Chioda. On the night of February 7, this cruiser, without lighting the identification lights, withdrew from the raid and went into the open sea. The next day, the gunboat "Koreets" at about 16.00 p.m. left the bay, where it met a Japanese squadron consisting of 7 cruisers and 8 destroyers. The Asama cruiser blocked the Korean’s path to the open sea, and the torpedo boats launched three torpedoes along the gunboat (two passed by, and the third sank a few meters from the side of the Korean). Belyaev decided to enter the neutral harbor and disappeared into Chemulpo.
            On February 9, at 7.30 a.m., the commander of the Japanese squadron, Admiral Urio Sotokichi sent a telegram to the captains of the ships in Chemulpo about the state of the war between Russia and Japan, informing him that he forced to attack neutral bay at 16.00 if Russian ships will not give up or they will not go to the open sea by noon.
            At 9.30, this telegram became known to Captain 1st Rank Rudnev aboard the English ship Talbot. After a brief meeting with the officers was a decision was made to leave the bay and give battle to the Japanese squadron.
            At 11.20 minutes, “Korean” and “Varangian” left the bay. Say that it stunned foreign sailors - means to say nothing! On foreign ships of neutral powers all teams were built and escorted Russian heroes with a loud “Hurray!” to certain death. On the "Varangian" the orchestra performed the national anthems of those countries whose sailors saluted the bravery of Russian weapons. (they probably saluted to cowards and sailors who do not comply with the Maritime Charter).
            But to go to sea to commit suicide is still half the battle, it was still necessary to fight with dignity, that the “Varyag” demonstrated with brilliance! There were no less Japanese dead than on the "Varangian", in spite of the total advantage of the Japanese and that they focused almost all of their firepower on one ship.
            However, one Japanese destroyer sank during the battle. The Asama cruiser, which had gone to the dock for major repairs, was badly damaged. But the cruiser "Takachiho" in general did not reach the repair dock in Sosebo - he drowned during the trip.
            And finally, the last “serious” presentation, why they didn’t blow up the Varangian, but didn’t flood. The captain of the English cruiser Talbot Bailey categorically opposed the explosion, motivating his opinion crowded ships in the raid. Do not forget that Bailey, together with the Italians and the French, kindly agreed to accept on our ships all our healthy and wounded sailors.
            Nevertheless, officers destroyed valuable equipment, smashed surviving instruments, manometers, dismantled the locks of guns, throwing parts overboard. Finally, the Kingstones were opened, and at six o’clock in the evening the Varyag lay down on the bottom on the port side.
            Verily, they say that there is no worse lie than half-truthon which one can speculate and pervert reality in such a way that it is incomprehensible to the mind!
            1. Rurikovich
              Rurikovich 13 May 2018 15: 36
              +12
              Quote: Proxima
              But the cruiser "Takachiho" in general did not reach the repair dock in Sosebo - he drowned during the trip.

              Strange ... what And who, then, was torpedoed by S-90 on 17.10.1914/XNUMX/XNUMX during the siege of Qingdao ??? wink
              1. Proxima
                Proxima 13 May 2018 16: 12
                +7
                Quote: Rurikovich
                Quote: Proxima
                But the cruiser "Takachiho" in general did not reach the repair dock in Sosebo - he drowned during the trip.

                Strange ... what And who, then, was torpedoed by S-90 on 17.10.1914/XNUMX/XNUMX during the siege of Qingdao ??? wink

                Perhaps you are right. I was based on the Rudnev report of February 6, 1904: "... By information received in Shanghai, the Japanese suffered heavy losses in people and had accidents on ships, especially the cruiser Asama, who went to the dock, was especially injured. The Takachiho cruiser, which received a hole, also suffered; the cruiser took 200 wounded and went to Sasebo, but the patch burst expensive and could not stand the bulkhead, so the Takachiho cruiser sank into the sea ... "
                Looks like "information from Shanghai" was not entirely correct. hi
                1. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 13 May 2018 18: 50
                  +6
                  Here, Vsevolod Fedorovich, as it were softer, gave unverified information.
                2. hohol95
                  hohol95 13 May 2018 22: 03
                  +4
                  The information from Shanghai was FALSE!
                  Then the "Varangian" and "Korean" went to the harbor and dropped anchors there. Admiral Uriu asked the captain of the "Varyag" to leave the port on Tuesday at twelve in the afternoon, if this is not done he will be forced to attack the Russians in the harbor. Admiral Uriu then sent a circular to all the ships in the harbor, asking them to raise the anchors and leave no later than 16 pm Tuesday. Similar messages were sent to all consuls ashore through the Japanese consul. At noon, the Russians left the harbor and were attacked. After thirty-four minutes of the battle, the attacked ships retreated, the “Korean” exploded, and the “Varyag” and “Sungari” sank. None of the officers or sailors of the squadron was injured, and no damage was inflicted on the Japanese ships.
            2. BAI
              BAI 13 May 2018 16: 42
              +4
              There were no less Japanese dead than on the "Varangian",

              There were no dead Japanese, according to other sources. “Varangian” and “Korean” never hit.
              1. Proxima
                Proxima 13 May 2018 16: 52
                0
                Quote: BAI
                There were no less Japanese dead than on the "Varangian",

                There were no dead Japanese, according to other sources. “Varangian” and “Korean” never hit .

                And the Japanese destroyer probably didn’t drown ... belay
                1. TermNachTer
                  TermNachTer 13 May 2018 19: 15
                  +6
                  Take the reference book "Japanese destroyers and destroyers" - it shows the time and place of death. Alas, Chemulpo is not there.
                  1. Vladimir1155
                    Vladimir1155 14 May 2018 10: 05
                    +2
                    why do you believe the Japanese and do not believe Rudnev? you do not admit that the directory may be untrue, despite the fact that it is published according to Japanese information?
                    1. TermNachTer
                      TermNachTer 14 May 2018 10: 18
                      +4
                      Suligi's handbook was published much later and checked well. so the fate of each destroyer is painted, although not very detailed, but the dates of entry into operation and death or write-offs are necessarily indicated. Because I believe Suliga, and not Rudnev? Again, do not forget the ideological aspect. Patriotism and all that.
                      1. Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 14 May 2018 19: 50
                        +2
                        your blind faith in the Japanese ... you can go no further.
                2. BAI
                  BAI 13 May 2018 20: 06
                  +6
                  And the Japanese destroyer probably didn’t drown


                  Obviously, he didn’t drown if his commander reported no losses.

                  Russian sources indicate very large losses of the enemy: a sunken destroyer, 30 killed and 200 wounded. They are mainly based on the opinions of representatives of foreign powers who have observed the battle. Over time, two torpedo boats and the Takachiho cruiser turned out to be “sunk” (by the way, these data fell into the thin film “Cruiser Varyag”). And if the fate of some Japanese destroyers raises questions, the cruiser Takachiho safely survived the Russo-Japanese War and died 10 years later with the entire crew during the siege of Qingdao.

                  The reports of all the commanders of the Japanese cruisers indicate the absence of losses and damage on their ships.

                  By the way, how, being on a ship at a distance of dozens of cable ones, to determine the number of dead and wounded in an enemy ship?
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 May 2018 20: 43
                    +6
                    Quote: BAI
                    By the way, how, being on a ship at a distance of dozens of cable ones, to determine the number of dead and wounded in an enemy ship?

                    According to second-hand information, the Japanese buried 30 people after the battle, that's all.
            3. Severok
              Severok 13 May 2018 20: 50
              +2
              This is stated in Stepanov’s novel Port Arthur.
              1. TermNachTer
                TermNachTer 15 May 2018 13: 37
                +1
                Comrades, I want to remind you that "Port Arthur" is a purely artistic work and it is not reasonable to use it as a source. Moreover, the author himself was 5 or 6 years old during the siege.
                1. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 15 May 2018 14: 17
                  +1
                  In addition, there is reason to believe that he was not there at all :))
      2. Monarchist
        Monarchist 13 May 2018 14: 08
        +6
        I just downloaded Kravchenko “Across the Three Oceans” today, but when will I start reading? This is how it is said: “a mystery covered in darkness”: I’ve already “hogged” a lot, but I can’t read it: work, a garden, a website and other things use a mustache
        1. Proxima
          Proxima 13 May 2018 15: 18
          +24
          By the way, you can also talk about the Order of the Rising Sun. For what? In an hour of courage? Or for the "fitting" of the cruiser? (from text)
          Such lines do not honor the authors of the article!
          And suggest that the Japanese pay tribute to the courage of a real warrior? - no? no way? Probably does not fit into the "modern values" of the 21st century!
          By the way, Rudnev accepted this order only after the urgent request of Nicholas II.
          In general, the Japanese were able to appreciate the feat of a real WARRIOR, even if he was their opponent.
          For example, the Japanese poet Ishikawa Takuboku responded to the news of the death of Admiral Makarov in the following lines:
          Friends and foes, throw away the swords,
          Do not strike violently,
          Stand with bowed head

          At the sound of his name: Makarov.
          I praise him in the hour of enmity blind
          Through the menacing roar of the flood and fires.
          In the deep sea, where the shaft boils,
          Port Arthur Defender Sleeps Now
          hi hi hi
          But the authors of the article do not understand this. They have other “values” and priorities.
          1. Russian jacket
            Russian jacket 13 May 2018 16: 25
            +7
            wonderful poems .... I also note that after the death of Admiral Makarov on the battleship "Petropavlovsk" the Japanese honored his memory with a mourning flashlight demonstration ....
            1. Proxima
              Proxima 13 May 2018 16: 48
              +9
              Quote: Russian quilted jacket
              wonderful poems .... I also note that after the death of Admiral Makarov on the battleship "Petropavlovsk" the Japanese honored his memory with a mourning flashlight demonstration ....

              A terrible irony of fate, lifeboats pulled out of the water of Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovich (cousin of Emperor Nicholas II) belay Then evil joked: "Gold drowned, but r ... but surfaced."
    2. Roman Skomorokhov
      13 May 2018 08: 52
      +2
      Quote: Do not care
      Admiral Rozhestvensky, gave all his ships nicknames. Aurora, he called - "prozatrana"


      Hmm ... And, nevertheless, noted the crew thanks? No, he, of course, was still the fruit but not as much ...
  2. Comrade
    Comrade 13 May 2018 06: 38
    +18
    Controversial article each people have their own myths, carefully guarded.
    1. domokl
      domokl 13 May 2018 09: 01
      +5
      Half truth is worse than a lie. It is precisely because truth will always come out. And then we get about what we have in Ukraine today. Lies will overpower the truth ... And nothing can be done about it. at least in the short term ...
      1. g1v2
        g1v2 13 May 2018 11: 24
        +32
        The truth is needed by historians. For the people, history is role models. This is what children and cadets learn. Therefore, your "exposure of myths" is no different from the flow of feces that spilled over into perestroika. It is frankly harmful. am
        Well, in fact. The cruiser Varyag with the gunboat fought against 14 enemy ships? Fought. They didn’t surrender the ship, as many surrendered later under Tsushima? No. Flooded? Flooded. So what is the myth then? What served him beautifully? Well, almost all the historical exploits of all peoples upon closer examination will turn out to be the same. They didn’t understand the situation, the horse bore here, there was nothing at all, and so on. If you want to expose a story - expose someone else's, but do not touch ours. Ivan Susanin. Panfilovites, Varangian, Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya and others should remain an example to follow and do not fuck them. Enough already in the perestroika mocked at them. am
        1. Aleks2048
          Aleks2048 14 May 2018 23: 08
          +6
          This is the beauty of such generally quite specific sites like this one. Here, as a rule, an audience is going to already have a fairly stable moral position and here people will not simply spoil the boredom of the history of their homeland ... And even if during the discussion it turns out certain hospitable facts and circumstances, no one in their right mind will just to PR and even more so talk about the history of Russia, pouring everything through the prism of the revealed ...
          But in general I agree with you that for general use, of course, any feat should be submitted in a truncated version. In fact, any feat of this is nothing more than a manifestation of the courage of personal selflessness in correcting someone else’s sloppiness at best, negligence or direct betrayal in the worst case.
  3. brom
    brom 13 May 2018 07: 34
    +12
    True, the captain was unlucky again. Seeing the futility of the crew staying aboard the ship ...


    The captain is on the barge, and the ship is under the berth in the hospital.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Proxima
      Proxima 13 May 2018 12: 38
      +14
      Quote: brom
      True, the captain was unlucky again. Seeing the futility of the crew staying aboard the ship ...


      The captain is on the barge, and the ship is under the berth in the hospital.

      I see you are a maritime specialist! A barge cannot have a captain. The head of the non-self-propelled vessel, which is the barge, is SKIPPER. And the sharpness about the ship under the bed is generally out of place here. hi
      1. sabakina
        sabakina 13 May 2018 15: 50
        +4
        Quote: Proxima
        The head of the non-self-propelled vessel, which is the barge, is SKIPPER.

        Regarding the skipper, you reminded me ....
      2. Angler
        Angler 13 May 2018 16: 29
        +16
        Under the bed, in fact, a duck. A ship is any man-made object that can stay afloat and perform certain tasks. A ship is called a ship on which a naval flag is hoisted or that carries straight sails. Something like this is formulated. I confirm about the skipper.
        1. Proxima
          Proxima 13 May 2018 17: 01
          +9
          Quote: Sea Devil
          Under the bed, in fact, a duck. A ship is any man-made object that can stay afloat and perform certain tasks. A ship is called a ship on which a naval flag is hoisted or that carries straight sails. Something like this is formulated. I confirm about the skipper.

          Why did he not like the word "ship"? I remembered seeing something. How many derivatives of this root: ship repair, shipowner, shipbuilding ... request
          1. Per se.
            Per se. 14 May 2018 06: 33
            +8
            Quote: Proxima
            What the word "ship" that he did not like?
            This is from the series "walk and swim," and "ship and ship." Some very cool "seamen", it is useless to argue that any ship is a ship, but not every ship is a ship (for example, small boats and, directly, a medical product). Ship's log, shipbuilding, metacentric height of the ship and so on, they, obviously, only belong to the civilian fleet as "ducks". Similar obstinacy and about "walking", almost, "like dry", everything that swims, for them shit in the hole, and around the world swimming, crew, combat swimmers, buoyancy and similar "fecal" definitions ... What ... before the topic of the article, so, gave a reason for conversation, a small provocation of the authors. “Varyag”, his battle with the Japanese, was and will be a symbol of the valor of Russian sailors, and it is hardly correct to put this under any doubt. The only thing I would like to add is, in my opinion, a historical injustice, a half-forgotten and little-known feat of the sailors of the armored cruiser Rurik. Here, about this fight, dear Roman, I would like to read your article in order to remember and remember the heroes. It is a pity that in our modern fleet they did not bother to call with this name a new warship.
            In 10 hour. 42 min. 14 August 1904 The armored cruiser of the Russian fleet "Rurik" with the raised flag of St. Andrew and the cocked signal "I am dying, but do not give up!" Disappeared under water ... On the "Rurik" 204 man and 305 sailors were wounded (on the "Varyag" 22 seaman killed in battle, 12 died from wounds). The fallen Rurik residents remained forever where they accepted their last battle, at the bottom of the Korean Strait. “Russia” and “Gromoboy” in that fight lost 129 lower ranks and officers. Historians then wrote: "You need to be iron beings to withstand such a hell of a fight."
          2. Vladimir 5
            Vladimir 5 14 May 2018 12: 29
            0
            to experts: A duck for urine, a vessel for feces and everything under a feeble bed ... Captain - they call the position on the ship or vessel in general, therefore the captain commands the small seiner and cruiser, but the ranks are different ...
          3. Mixa 2106
            Mixa 2106 12 September 2018 19: 23
            0
            Legal proceedings laughing
          4. Mixa 2106
            Mixa 2106 12 September 2018 19: 25
            0
            legal proceedings laughing
        2. Severok
          Severok 13 May 2018 20: 52
          +4
          In medicine, a vessel and a duck are different dishes. In the first Wed-ut, in the second ss-at
      3. brom
        brom 16 May 2018 10: 07
        0
        Barge barge discord, son.
    3. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 13 May 2018 18: 54
      +12
      Actually, the "ship" at that time is quite an official term.
      CIRCULAR OF THE MAIN MARINE STAFF.

      (February 12 of 1904 of the year, No. 29).


      The Main Naval Headquarters declares, for information on the maritime industry, that for other persons wishing to depart for military vessels a six-week training camp and for the last exam for the rank of warrant officer of the fleet, the following ports were selected in the present 1904: Vladivost, Kronshtopol the nearest of which should be sent, to the account of the treasury, from the management of military commanders, consisting of 82 st. of the charter on military service in the stock of the fleet of lower ranks wishing to hold the above exam.

      P.S. for the future, the verb swim is also quite acceptable and is used no less than walking. if that read Konetsky.
      1. Angler
        Angler 13 May 2018 20: 42
        +11
        Walking, not swimming, is nothing more than sea force. As an end, not a rope, etc. Someone who can cut it down is better: why, then, the captain of a long voyage, and not a long voyage.
      2. beeper
        beeper 13 May 2018 23: 43
        +5
        I absolutely do not want to enter into these unconstructive terminological "disputes", as well as into the discussion of the battle route of the "Varyag" and "Aurora", since I know a lot about these cruisers and their classmates in the Japanese fleet (at one time I had been ill with Port Arthur and Tsushima, and therefore, already in the subject, I didn’t miss any mention from any printed and oral sources, and I hope I knew the scheme of the battle of the Varyag and the Korean, as well as the political background, well enough, so this article has long been composed it won’t change in any way), about the Russian imperial fleet and about many things connected with it ... as well as about the educational campaign of Aurora and Komsomolets (I glued Aurora from a plastic kit in childhood, then, without me, my brother launched it in the bath- drowned smile and now it pushed me to “heal the nerves” with petty needlework and took up the model of Komsomolets according to the drawings of MK and once again read related to it and Aurora yes ) ....
        Comrade Senior Sailor, my respect and plus to you is not even for the undoubtedly curious "circular", but for the recommendations to read Viktor Konetsky, my most beloved Author! good I join these your recommendations! yes
        hi
  4. baudolino
    baudolino 13 May 2018 07: 39
    +28
    It is written spectacularly, but frank muck is written. If you didn’t go out alone for five, if you don’t have the slightest idea what a sea battle is, if you didn’t smell gunpowder on your sofa, how can you write such nasty things about those who did it? Yes, and with a distortion of real facts.
    1. Roman Skomorokhov
      13 May 2018 08: 46
      +7
      What battle did you take part in?
      1. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 13 May 2018 12: 20
        +24
        Quote: Banshee
        What battle did you take part in?

        1. Such a question “in boxing” is a blow below the belt.
        2. Yesterday, I was also asked by one Troll, so whoever you run into may be an internationalist warrior and a participant in the Chechen Republic, etc.
        3. It is natural to ask you: where did you smell the gunpowder?
        Remember how Ilf and Petrov have: “Which regiment did you serve in?” (with). bully
    2. Moore
      Moore 13 May 2018 08: 50
      +26
      I absolutely agree.
      Which we are all smart, possessing after-knowledge. Ah, the "Varyag" was flooded, oh, they didn’t blow up, the Schaub didn’t get the schob ... But to think about whether Rudnev could have imagined that Russia would lose the Japanese war - it doesn’t fit in the heads of the authors? What the Japanese will not raise him, Rudnev could be sure of this?
      And the bike about the "shot that crossed out the fate" of the cruiser Aurora - it is generally beyond decency.
      1. domokl
        domokl 13 May 2018 08: 53
        +6
        Quote: Moore
        But to think about whether Rudnev could have thought that Russia would lose the war in Japan - doesn’t fit in the minds of the authors?

        For some reason, the commander of the "Koreyets" executed the naval regulations. blew the ship. So he was dumber?
        1. Moore
          Moore 13 May 2018 08: 57
          +17
          No, not dumber. Raising a gunboat is much easier than a cruiser of the first rank, respectively, and put into operation during the war.
          Moreover, the commander of the "Korean" Belyaev acted according to the instructions of the same Rudnev.
          1. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 14 May 2018 10: 11
            +3
            gunboat can be taken to shallow detail, away from other ships
        2. Roman Skomorokhov
          13 May 2018 08: 58
          +5
          Quote: Moore
          But to think about whether Rudnev could have thought that Russia would lose the war in Japan - doesn’t fit in the minds of the authors? What would the Japanese not raise it, Rudnev could be sure of that?


          "... and the trough began to sob, alas, I was broken, broken ..." (K. I. Chukovsky)

          It is forgiven to a person who does not have what the Charter is in his heart. And even after 100 years it’s hard to understand that Rudnev wasn’t obliged to THINK. More precisely, it is obliged, but not to SEE into the future, but over how to carry out the letter of the Charter.

          This, I note, the captain of the warship was, and not the king-father. But you obviously do not overpower.
          1. mark1
            mark1 13 May 2018 09: 44
            +5
            Quote: Banshee
            This, I note, the captain of the warship was, not the king-father

            That's right. And the captain also had instructions where there were two such points (not verbatim);
            - in no case to prevent the landing of Japanese troops
            - under no circumstances leave Chemulpo raid
          2. Nehist
            Nehist 13 May 2018 10: 07
            +10
            It is worth noting that not only the commander of a warship but also a hospital officer who is empowered to make decisions independently in accordance with the situation up to the use of weapons without requesting superior officers
            1. Andy
              Andy 13 May 2018 11: 59
              +6
              Stupidity. Rudnev was subordinate to the envoy Pavlov and was not free in decisions.
              1. Antares
                Antares 13 May 2018 21: 54
                +2
                Quote: Andy
                Rudnev was subordinate to the envoy Pavlov and was not free in decisions.

                communication with the Russian envoy to Korea was interrupted. Rudnev was not informed about Pavlov’s reaction to all the events and therefore made all the decisions himself.
          3. Moore
            Moore 13 May 2018 10: 12
            +17
            Quote: Banshee
            This, I note, the captain of the warship was, and not the king-father. But you obviously do not overpower.

            I don’t need to tell me what to master, what not. Focus on your stream of consciousness. And yes, it’s ridiculous to talk about the lack of the concept of charters to the person who passed these charters at the academy to the person who wrote them.
            So, read the Peter's Maritime Charter at your leisure, talent should be enough to find the corresponding article, then the Maritime Charter of 1885, then - I will not give a link to the articles on purpose, work on your own. There you will even find the provisions which rights the king-priest gives the commander, and the conditions under which the delivery of the ship is possible. And not a word about the way to destroy this very ship.
            I’ll say one thing: you haven’t read either one or the other, and therefore you set off on cheap raids.
          4. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 May 2018 11: 08
            +16
            Quote: Banshee
            It is forgiven to a person who does not have what the Charter is in his heart. And even after 100 years it’s hard to understand that Rudnev wasn’t obliged to THINK. More precisely, it is obliged, but not to SEE into the future, but over how to carry out the letter of the Charter.

            Surprisingly, he flooded the Varangian and performed it.
        3. alstr
          alstr 13 May 2018 11: 29
          +19
          The Korean commander executed the order of Rudnev. But the Varangians weren’t blown up due to the fact that there were foreign hospitals against, because the cruiser’s explosion could have hurt their ships.

          Rudnev was not only a commander, but also a diplomat. To spoil relations with foreigners was not in the team’s interests. At the same time, the teams were placed in foreign hospitals and the heaviest were placed on the most friendly ships.

          All this allowed to save the crews from captivity.


          The same applies to the breakthrough, it only seems that it is easy to go 20 miles of narrow fairway at high speed at night. This is actually not the case. In addition, there is still a bunch of unknown factors that we simply don’t know, but they were significant. Moreover, all of our reasoning is the fruit of aftertaste and fortune telling. So it’s impossible to condemn the actions of Rudnev.

          As for Aurora, in Soviet times, his service was covered in sufficient detail. And now - it's honestly terrible. Recently I took my daughter's class (3rd grade) on a sightseeing tour. 5 minutes showed an incomprehensible video series without text. 10 minutes showed how the sailors eat and how they give them a wine portion.
          About the revolution in general terms, a little about Tsushima. About WWII nothing at all.
          In Soviet times, the lost 15 minutes on the video told in detail about Tsushima, About the assault on the Winter Palace (the diorama worked). There was a story about hiking in the 20s and 30s (the author of the article also did not mention this). About WWII - a story about Crow Mountain. And there was also a story about after military service.
          So I can say that for all its ideological orientation, the Soviet excursion was more complete in terms of information about the ship.
          1. Moore
            Moore 13 May 2018 14: 55
            +11
            Quote: alstr
            As for the breakthrough, it only seems that walking 20 miles of narrow fairway at high speed at night is easy. This is actually not the case. In addition, there is still a bunch of unknown factors that we simply don’t know, but they were significant. Moreover, all of our reasoning is the fruit of aftertaste and fortune telling. So it’s impossible to condemn the actions of Rudnev.

            Once upon a time there was a heated debate at Tsushima - could a breakthrough take place. They put forward the most fantastic ideas. In the end, they came to the conclusion that a breakthrough was possible only with the effect of afterthought and with the commander mentality of our present or the recent past.
            What is reflected in the cycle of books by G. Doinikov "Varangian-winner" ..
            1. Romper Stomper
              Romper Stomper 13 May 2018 22: 32
              +3
              Quote: Moore
              In the end, they came to the conclusion that a breakthrough was possible only with the effect of afterthought and with the commander mentality of our present or the recent past.

              It is very strange, to say the least, that they agreed on this idea, do not you think so?
              On January 24, Rudnev became aware of the severance of diplomatic relations with Japan. And this is a war! But Rudnev was scratching himself in one place for another 2 days and did nothing, and only on Jan 26 sent to Seoul to the envoy for advice. Although everything is already clear. Having returned, he only sends a “Korean” to Port Arthur on Jan. 15 at Jan. 40. But the cannon boat from Chemulpo was not let out by the Japanese. I have no words. This is already a war! Rudnev has one more night left, but it has not been used either. Subsequently, the refusal of an independent breakthrough from Chemulpo Rudnev explained the difficulties of a navigational nature. The fairway in Chemulpo is very narrow, winding and riddled with dangers. Indeed, entering Chemulpo in low tide, i.e. at low tide, very complex. But Rudnev does not seem to know that the height of the tides in Chemulpo reaches 6-7 m.During the Varyag’s draft 6.5m, in full evening water there was still the opportunity to break through the Japanese blockade.
              So the “Varyag” commander had 2-3 nights to break through the blockade and break even with the “Korean”, but Rudnev criminally did not take this opportunity!
              1. alstr
                alstr 14 May 2018 10: 19
                +2
                Actually, in those days it was still customary to declare war first. This was not done by the Japanese. And it was precisely this then that did not allow us to completely pour mud, because the world recognized that the attack was treacherous.

                Plus, if everything was clear, then the Port Arthur squadron would not be affected. And there, forgive me, there were persons of higher rank and rank. They, too, did not bother with any preparations - so they too deliberately delayed?
                1. Romper Stomper
                  Romper Stomper 15 May 2018 23: 28
                  0
                  Quote: alstr
                  Plus, if everything was clear, then the Port Arthur squadron would not be affected. And there, forgive me, there were persons of higher rank and rank. They, too, did not bother with any preparations - so they too deliberately delayed?

                  It was absolutely clear that all the signs indicated that a war with Japan was about to begin. Even at the end of December 1903, the General Staff in a memorandum to Nicholas II summarized all the intelligence information received: it followed that Japan had completely completed preparations for the war and waiting for an opportunity to attack.
                  Those responsible for the incapacitation, during the "sudden" attack of the Japanese on Jan. 27, of several ships of the Port Arthur squadron and the organizers of the feat of the "Varyag" and "Korean" are the same people. This is the deputy governor of the Far East General Adjutant adm.Alekseev and senior flagship of the Pacific Squadron, Vice Admiral Stark. They absolutely did not own the decor. Instead of preparing to repel a sudden attack by the enemy, they showed complete carelessness, or rather criminal negligence.
                  Fleet availability was low. And the cruiser "Varangian" they drove into a trap. With the obtanovka and the tasks that were assigned to the ships-inpatients, it was enough in Chemulpo to have the old canal boat “Koreets”, which did not represent any special military value.
                  Unfortunately, Rudnev did not have the courage to independently decide on leaving Chemulpo. He was simply afraid to take the initiative!
                  1. Senior seaman
                    Senior seaman 16 May 2018 10: 36
                    +3
                    In fairness, Oscar Viktorovich, should be excluded from the list of perpetrators. He filed a report several times in the name of the governor with a proposal to prepare the squadron for battle, but received an answer - inopportune. For the last time, literally on the eve of the attack. Stark did not argue then, but he carried away the report with the resolution of the governor with him. And when they tried (like you) to hang all the dogs, he presented this document.
                    This whole story is described in detail in Semenov's "Reckoning".
                    Although ... we must understand that Alekseev was not a fool either. The sailor from him is so-so, but he was an efficient administrator (compared to others, essno). There were some and he has reasons ...
                  2. alstr
                    alstr 16 May 2018 20: 27
                    0
                    About clarity and severance of diplomatic relations. Quote from the wiki:
                    "The Varyaga commander and the Russian envoy to Korea did not have official information on the severance of diplomatic relations, since on February 6, 1904, the Japanese communications minister issued an order according to which Japanese-controlled Korean telegraph stations detained telegrams containing important information; according to Russian sources The delays in telegrams began even earlier, and from the end of January 1904 the “Varyaga” commander and the Russian diplomatic mission in Korea were practically isolated [6] [7]. Having learned from the commanders of foreign ships about the severance of diplomatic relations, Rudnev sent a telegram on February 6 the next day, instead of receiving an answer to Port Arthur, he went by train to Seoul to negotiate with the envoy, suggesting that he evacuate the mission to the “Varangian” and “Korean.” Without permission from the leadership, the envoy refused, offering to send with reports to Port Arthur “Korean.” Returning to Chemulpo, Rudnev ordered the commander of the gunboat Ki prepare to leave for Port Arthur on February 8th. "

                    Therefore, Rudnev did not have any clarity. Suspicions - yes, they were. Clarity - no. Plus the order of the messenger, to whom he was OFFICIALLY subordinate.
                    Plus, again, we do not forget that the Varangian and the Koreans carried out a diplomatic mission, which in itself imposes some restrictions on the freedom of action of ship captains (i.e., they cannot be guided ONLY by military expediency).


                    So it was not so simple. And plus there were many factors that we do not know about and they are not reflected in the documents (since it was taken for granted at that time).
      2. BAI
        BAI 13 May 2018 09: 26
        +18
        Drowning a ship by opening kingstones is a normal practice of the time.

        The Monument to the Guardian is a monument to the heroic death in the battle of the Russo-Japanese war of the destroyer The Guardian.
        The monument depicts a part of the ship’s hull and two sailors revealing kingstones, which reflects a common legend according to which two sailors flooded the ship so that it would not go to the enemy (in fact, there were no Kingstones on the “Guardian”).

        The monument was unveiled on April 26, 1911 in the presence of Emperor Nicholas II, in the Alexander Park on Kamennoostrovsky Prospekt. Iskra magazine in May 1911 published photographs from the opening ceremony of the monument. The signature under one of them reads: “A monument to the heroes of the destroyer“ Stereguschiy ”opened in St. Petersburg on May 10 with a stream of water pouring from an open porthole.”

        And again, a story similar to "Varangian"
        They created an authoritative commission that studied all the circumstances of the case, received the necessary documents from Japan and came to the conclusion that the destroyer sank from the received holes, and all reports of the exploit of two sailors are nothing more than a beautiful legend. Having received such a report, Nicholas II wrote on it the following resolution: “To consider that the monument was erected in memory of the heroic death in the battle of the destroyer“ The Guardian ”. In this regard, the monument was called the Monument to the Guardian, referring not to some two mythical sailors, but to quite real officers and sailors who really fought the enemy to the last extreme and died for the glory of the Russian flag.

        The tsar did everything right - it is necessary to raise the morale of the army, and not spit on it.
        1. alstr
          alstr 13 May 2018 22: 45
          +4
          Here it is only necessary to consider that only 4 people remained from the crew and they were shot to the last. And all were injured.
          And here it doesn’t matter how it sank - the crew was at the last opportunity (at the time of capture by the Japanese, no guns could no longer fire) and the crew itself was already gone.
          Therefore, the legend simply embellished reality. Of course, it would be more accurate to depict them as a calculation of the last weapon.
      3. SevaNikolaev
        SevaNikolaev 13 May 2018 10: 06
        +5
        Keep
  5. Monster_Fat
    Monster_Fat 13 May 2018 08: 00
    +16
    Konstantin Simonov once said: “What is the“ truth about the war? ”After all, everyone had their own war ....., everyone, from his own trench, saw his own piece of the war .... and therefore, everyone has their own truth about her...."
    1. Russian jacket
      Russian jacket 13 May 2018 16: 28
      +4
      and there is. you're right. hi
  6. lazy
    lazy 13 May 2018 08: 29
    +15
    another article of the hybrid war, denigrate and belittle what is holy for the people. (This is about the Varangian). I won’t be surprised if the authors consider Victory Day to be “victory”. all the same, we need on the site not only the pros but also the minuses
    1. Roman Skomorokhov
      13 May 2018 08: 48
      0
      Well, what a shrine, such, I'm sorry, people. With such a government headed. Much becomes clear.
      1. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 13 May 2018 12: 47
        +14
        Quote: Banshee
        Well, here are some shrines, such, excuse me, people.

        And what did you, sir, our Russian people did not please !? belay
        Or are you, as has recently been the custom, of a Jewish tribe? lol
        Then everything is clear: the people are clearly not the same for you ... laughing
        1. BAI
          BAI 13 May 2018 16: 48
          +3
          And let me curiosity, what do the Jews have to do with the Russo-Japanese War?
    2. BAI
      BAI 13 May 2018 09: 34
      +8
      Why are you surprised? After all, a series of articles "Poisoned Feather" thrives on the site.
  7. Yak28
    Yak28 13 May 2018 08: 34
    +18
    For some reason, no country in the world except Russia has the habit of tearing its history with the aim of pouring mud over and sweeping the past, and passing it off as truth. I won’t be surprised if, in 50-100 years, historians will find evidence that Yeltsin restored the country's defense, did not give cut ships and planes wink
    1. Roman Skomorokhov
      13 May 2018 08: 50
      +6
      Where is slop? About the "heroic death of" Varyag "or something? You, gentlemen, master the second button slowly. And head at the same time. And for one-button and single-cell I explain on behalf of the authors: the article is not against" Varyag ", but for Aurora.
      But for this purpose it was necessary to read it at least line by line.
      1. BAI
        BAI 13 May 2018 09: 39
        +17
        To humiliate one to raise the other?
      2. prapor55
        prapor55 13 May 2018 10: 13
        0
        Roman, as a long-time reader of the site, I do not remember that you are so actively involved in the discussion of your article and you need to continue to competently compete. Maybe people will start reading what is written, not on the diagonal!
      3. g1v2
        g1v2 13 May 2018 11: 30
        +19
        Well, they would write about Aurora. And what demon did the Varyag need to wash? Wasn’t this enough for perestroika? What did this lead to? In general, if you want to engage in revelation, expose someone else's story, but do not touch ours. am
        1. Angler
          Angler 13 May 2018 16: 46
          +8
          And in what "Varangian" washed away? The author wrote several times that this does not apply to the crew of the cruiser. People acted heroically. But in those conditions, they had no chance. There is a question for propaganda. The war went on according to an unforeseen scenario, and a positive was needed. The king found him, turning defeat on the real front into a victory on the propaganda front, thereby raising morale. By the way, Rudnev himself did not consider himself a hero. Well, about the "Aurora" the author did not say anything new. I just retold the children's book of the 80s, it was all there, just in a simplified way with pictures for children. Why he decided that it was hiding by someone, I have no idea.
    2. BAI
      BAI 13 May 2018 09: 37
      +14
      Yes, Americans from any trifle make a heroic large-scale event glorifying the USA, and we have a self-spitting mania.
  8. mmaxx
    mmaxx 13 May 2018 08: 45
    +17
    Sneaky little article. The yellow press had to publish.
    1. Roman Skomorokhov
      13 May 2018 08: 59
      +4
      Not, just right. To study the percentage of stubborn neznake / discrepancies on the site.
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 13 May 2018 09: 26
        +4
        Quote: Banshee
        To study the percentage of stubborn dunno / mischief on the site.

        good
    2. domokl
      domokl 13 May 2018 09: 06
      +1
      But the truth is not always pleasant. In any press. An honest story about what was in no way detracts from the feat. But blind faith in myths creates the impression of a completely invented story. Look at our former from the Baltic States and Ukraine.
      Of course, recovery is also possible, as is currently happening in Georgia. But this process is lengthy and often unsuccessful ...
      1. Andy
        Andy 13 May 2018 09: 51
        +16
        thank god you authors know the story ... and about problems with Varyag machines and about maneuvering at full speed on the fairway. How do you differ from a rezun?
  9. ANCIENT
    ANCIENT 13 May 2018 08: 59
    +10
    Alexander, Roman, hi or maybe just leave everything in our history as it is, its this poor history of Russia, the USSR, now again who and as soon as Russia did not rewrite Russia, but from this reality, and not writing on paper, became different!
    1. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 13 May 2018 11: 52
      +14
      Quote: ANCIENT
      Now again (history) of Russia, who and as soon as did not rewrite, but from this the reality, and not the recording on paper, became different!

      Question: Could defeat the USSR fascist Germany and K * if the CPSU (b) and Stalin did not make a single monolith from the country? - I doubt it. During the war years, they also remembered the feat of the "Varyag", and no one doubted whether the heroes of 1905 did the right thing ...
      Putin spoke of roots, bonds ... ancestors, heroes of the Second World War, whom we should be worthy.
      And the current pro-Western liberoids-junkies need us to renounce our history and the "heroes of the past" ...
      Therefore, under the guise of truth-seeking, the roots are trimmed, seeds of doubt are thrown into the soil of seditious grain ...
      Unfortunately, few understand this. The majority, crushed by poverty and everyday life, are led to the “cries of Vodlyasov” and run to rallies of Navalny and others like him, to the great pleasure of the provocateurs.
      Ага.
  10. Andy
    Andy 13 May 2018 09: 03
    +12
    The author, unexpected this. If it weren’t for Aurora’s shot to leave Kuserensky from Russia? I’m sorry for those “veterans” who wrote off Aurora to the trash of history ... About Varangian too-go at night along a difficult fairway blocked by a squadron ... A good target for the attack of destroyers, do not dodge, do not see in the dark ... and the cruisers also didn’t stand indifferent
    1. domokl
      domokl 13 May 2018 09: 14
      +3
      Tell me, honestly, did you know about Aurora's combat path? After the revolutionary events of course ... I asked many. Vaguely, vaguely ...
      And about the shot ... And if it hadn't been, then there would have been no revolution? A symbol whose value is difficult to estimate. Yes, it was. Yes signal. Is it bad or good for today? This is just part of the story that was.
      1. Andy
        Andy 13 May 2018 09: 40
        +7
        I knew. about the shot, everyone knew he was ... but the program "seeker" (like) did not find references to it either in the journal of Aurora or other vessels on the Neva ... who should I believe? the question is not whether there would be a revolution without a shot or not (a shot is a symbol of revolution and nothing more), but that one should not spoil one’s history, the memory of ancestors. how did the shot cross the ship’s merits? unsuccessful article
        1. Snakebyte
          Snakebyte 14 May 2018 10: 23
          +1
          Quote: Andy
          the question is not what would be a revolution without a shot or not (a shot is a symbol of revolution and nothing more)

          In fact, the revolution was not provided by the Aurora, but by the modest mine transport Amur, which delivered 120 armed sailors to Petrograd. And he was ready to support the assault with fire of his 120-mm guns.
      2. tasha
        tasha 13 May 2018 10: 16
        +9
        Tell me, honestly, did you know about Aurora's combat path? After the revolutionary events of course ... I asked many. Vaguely, vaguely ...

        That's how much I remember myself, I always knew about the history of the cruiser. Even such a cartoon was Aurora ...
        1. Andy
          Andy 13 May 2018 10: 31
          +5
          you know the wrong story ... run the risk of getting into the number of stubborn dunno-unicellular if you do not recognize the talent and truth of the "authors". not the site has become - garbage. moreover, with a fascist and nationalist bias.
      3. Captain45
        Captain45 13 May 2018 16: 53
        +16
        Quote: domokl
        Tell me, honestly, did you know about Aurora's combat path? After the revolutionary events of course ... I asked many. Vaguely, vaguely ...

        I’ve been from childhood, and I’ve already exceeded ten on the 6, I remember a cartoon in which the famous song “What do you dream about the cruiser Aurora” sounded. So in this cartoon the entire battle path of the cruiser from Tsushima was shown, before being parked in the eternal parking lot To Neva, as far as I remember, a story was kept there on behalf of an old sailor to a boy, they showed a photograph of Yegoriev in a frame of armor, showed a gun on an armored train and a battery on a mountain during the war years. So whoever wanted to know who knew what the ship was fighting . May not be exactly what caliber guns or how many knots he gave with machines, but the main milestones of the path in that cartoon are shown. It’s bad that there were no normal cartoons, any shit on the past is certainly easier, and perhaps more profitable. hi And then they whine that there is no ideology, there is no one to fight. G @ obviously it’s not necessary to pour it on your own head and there will be someone to love the Motherland and fight for it.
  11. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 13 May 2018 09: 25
    +13
    Article plus.
    Purely from the outside, so the Chemulpo fight really looks like a PR action (if you look without ideology) - they took the “Korean” so that there would be no attacks in low-speed (it’s impossible to go on a break with 9 knots), turned back after the first victim (out of 11 hits, 8 got already on the way back), they returned with greater speed already spitting on the “Korean”, invented sunken ships of the Japanese ... There are too many questions for this battle ... Personally, I respect the heroism of the sailors - they knew what they were going on. But Rudnev’s actions are no longer pulling on a feat!
    If you dig a little deeper, the actions of N.O.Fon Essen are really worthy to be called a feat - he did not flood his Sevastopol EDB in the inner harbor of Port Arthur, and for several days he fought against the Japanese destroyers, sinking 2 and hurt 5. At the same time, before the surrender P-A Essen took his ship to the depths and sank there, eliminating the possibility of raising it subsequently to the Japanese. So much for the commanders - heaven and earth. But Essen’s actions are not considered a feat and aren’t cultivated anywhere except monographs, but the actions of the “Varyag” commander have been praised for centuries ... Paradox ... But such is life that, for the sake of certain decisions, the truth can be interpreted as one pleases. That's just the truth and remains, although it can be called either pathos - a feat, or not to be remembered and ignored - "Sevastopol"
    Personally, my opinion hi
    1. prapor55
      prapor55 13 May 2018 10: 19
      +2
      Here it is competently, read and spoke in the POINT! The opinion of Chelyabinsk and Kaptsov is interesting.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 May 2018 11: 13
        +23
        Quote: prapor55
        Interesting opinion of Chelyabinsk and Kaptsov

        The question with the Varangian is really not simple, but neither Rudnev nor the Varangian deserved such a “stream of consciousness”. I was thinking about a series of articles on the Varangian (there’s no way to fit into one, in principle), but I imagine what an epic ... ehhkm ... the holivar will be in the comments ...
        In general, the article is completely illiterate. From the very beginning I amused the “Aurora armchair for the Baltic Sea” (which, in fact, was built as an ocean cruiser), and then ..
        Personally, my opinion - if you want to expose a myth - well done, become a professional in a matter that you undertook to subvert. And when people spit on the Varangian, having the most distant idea of ​​the fleet ...
        1. Rurikovich
          Rurikovich 13 May 2018 11: 30
          +4
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          I was thinking about a series of articles on the Varangian (there’s no way to fit into one, in principle), but I imagine what an epic ... ehhkm ... the holivar will be in the comments ...

          Let’s - a fresh opinion on this event will not hurt. And do not worry about the “holivar” - your arguments will turn out to be valid and justified, and many opinions may change. after all, the essence of the debate lies in the fact that to come to a common denominator on the basis of real facts (and not fiction) hi
          1. arturpraetor
            arturpraetor 13 May 2018 13: 50
            +6
            We’ll even say this - almost any article by Andrei’s colleague on the RIF and Russia, due to the lack of adherence to an established opinion, is doomed to holivar in the comments, so ... laughing
          2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 May 2018 15: 56
            +11
            Quote: Rurikovich
            Let’s - a fresh opinion on this event will not hurt.

            Well, why not? Next week I’ll write the ending (conclusions) on the Gotland battle, and, in principle, you can take on the “Varyag” ... if the mood is :))) But in general, judging by such articles, it's time, however :)))
            1. Rurikovich
              Rurikovich 13 May 2018 16: 17
              +4
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              it's time, however :)))

              Then we’ll separate the grains from the chaff repeat
        2. Monarchist
          Monarchist 13 May 2018 15: 05
          +8
          Kamrad prapor, you correctly say: “the opinion of Chelyabinsk and Kaptsov is interesting,” Kaptsov is of course a peculiar author, but he knows more about ships than Roman, and Andrei is in love with the history of the fleet. I would not refuse to hear Kourios’s comment: if he owns the information, he won’t “cheat”
        3. prapor55
          prapor55 18 May 2018 12: 16
          0
          As always to the point! Bravo!!!!
    2. Antares
      Antares 13 May 2018 22: 00
      +3
      Quote: Rurikovich
      But Essen's actions

      by the way, it was the final of the 1TE, the rest were already flooded with fire from heights. Essen (by the way, he was Novik’s commander and was appointed to Sevastopol by the order of Makarov, instead of Chernyshov after a collision with Boisman’s Relight, if his memory serves)
      The final battle of ships 1TE. The result is the failure of the EBR and the gunboat. (More precisely, the impossibility of repair in the PA).
      Since this is only a piece of the main feat (Siege of PA), it is unfamiliar to everyone.
  12. another RUSICH
    another RUSICH 13 May 2018 09: 31
    +22
    The article is, sorry, gives shit.
    Did the author decide to follow in the footsteps of Suvorov with his Icebreaker? Oh well..
    Yes, just a proverb: Don’t be greasy with shit, you’ll smear yourself, do not forget.
    The author probably did not know that the channel for the Varyag was narrow and rather complicated. What are 25 nodes? what is the exit from the port at night? rave, not respected?
    It is strange that sir, you have to open your eyes to obvious things: the feat of the Varangian is not the number of minutes spent in battle, but in the confrontation with an incommensurably strong opponent.
    The Varangian went out to fight, and not to drape, as you suggested. And the team of the Varyag understood what the honor of the flag is.
    And the title of your article can only conditionally be called correct regarding the losses of the Varyag’s crew. Because the American shipbuilders, for some reason, did not bother to equip the Varyag guns with armor shields. And the fact that Varyag already at the time of descent from the slipways was outdated in terms of characteristics is also not the fault of the crew, who did not ache, but fought as best they could and how they could.
    And about the explosion of the Varangian, this option was also considered, but the explosion could damage the foreign ships that were on the roadstead.
    So take your dirty hands away from Rudnev’s honest name
    1. Nehist
      Nehist 13 May 2018 10: 01
      +4
      The Varangian could be taken to the depths as had been done to the Korean, and if one hadn’t already detonated so to flood, than would complicate the rise of the Japanese. Well, the fact that the Rudnev naval officer corps despised this well-known fact. On the shields, this is for MTK RIF and not for the Americans
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 May 2018 11: 14
        +4
        Quote: Nehist
        Well, the fact that the Rudnev naval officer corps despised this well-known fact.

        Clarify the source of this famous fact.
        1. Nehist
          Nehist 13 May 2018 12: 06
          +2
          Former navigator Varyag later
          Chief of the Naval General Staff of the Navy of the RSFSR E.A. Berens
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 May 2018 12: 21
            +3
            Quote: Nehist
            Former navigator Varyag later
            Chief of the Naval General Staff of the Navy of the RSFSR E.A. Berens

            It’s strange. It seems to be reading, but I can’t remember. Would you quote?
          2. Cannonball
            Cannonball 13 May 2018 14: 37
            +3
            E.A. Berens, who became ... the 1st Soviet head of the MGSH <15.11.1917/2001/1>, later recalled how he expected on his native shore the arrest and the sea court "[V.D.Dotsenko" Myths and legends of Russian maritime history " XNUMX, chapter XNUMX.] The most interesting thing is that nowhere can we find the original source (according to the oral message of the administrator of the site "Tim's System", it was a private letter to VE Egoriev, which has not yet been published).
            Most likely this is precisely the point - that Behrens, inwardly resisting the Varyag’s self-flooding (how, in this case, the honor of a Russian naval officer might be tarnished), but giving consent to the flooding, was not only afraid of the tribunal later, but could also blame Rudnev, one might say, forced Behrens to make such a difficult decision. When it comes to honor among officers, Behrens, faced with such a choice, could well despise Rudnev internally. But in this case, he should despise himself no less.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 May 2018 14: 54
              +6
              Quote: Cannonball
              E.A. Berens, who became ... the 1st Soviet head of the MGSh <15.11.1917/XNUMX/XNUMX>, later recalled how he expected arrest and the sea court on his native shore "

              That's right. But you must admit that in addition to the reasons you mentioned (with which I am completely in agreement) there is a very big difference between the expectation of the arrest by Berens, which we are talking about and the postulate about the contempt of naval officers for Rudnev.
              1. Cannonball
                Cannonball 13 May 2018 15: 13
                +3
                This is quite possibly a specific naval officer. I do not know anything about the negative opinion of Behrens, or other naval officers about Rudnev because of his decision to flood the Varyag. However, on the Internet you can find information that for Behrens personally it was a very difficult choice, a difficult deal with his own conscience, since he was internally against flooding. From a psychological point of view, such a "coercion" may well become the reason for the subsequent "contempt."
                Here, the reason for Rudnev’s resignation due to his “revolutionary activity” in 1905 can also play a role. It is likely that naval officers, for the most part, did not support Rudnev's democratic relations with the lower ranks, which undermined, in their opinion, the monarchist foundations. Hence the contempt, supposedly "from riches and in the mud." Plus, the elementary envy of the unexpected popular popularity of Rudnev, to some extent comparable with the later popularity of Chkalov, Zhukov, Gagarin, and, now, Putin.
      2. Cannonball
        Cannonball 13 May 2018 11: 39
        +9
        Yeah, "despised" - who became a knight of the Order of St. 4th degree George, the adjutant’s wing of Nicholas II, the commander of the squadron battleship “Andrew the First-Called” and the rear admiral for dismissal.
        In November 1905, Rudnev refused to take disciplinary measures against the revolutionary-minded sailors of his crew, and therefore was considered unreliable.
        1. Nehist
          Nehist 13 May 2018 12: 03
          +3
          Notice the nominal ship under construction. Vobschem no matter how or where no longer showed himself
          1. Cannonball
            Cannonball 13 May 2018 12: 15
            +6
            An assignment to a ship under construction is more a reward than an honorary reference. In addition, the battleship is the basis and elite of the fleet of that period. Both of these facts speak for themselves. And in the modest military merit of “Andrew the First-Called”, Rudnev is not guilty, however, as well as merit.
      3. Angler
        Angler 13 May 2018 17: 34
        +7
        In fact, Chemulpo is a port, not an open ocean. Great depths there are only on the fairway, and even then it is very arbitrary. At the fairway, the then "partners" did not allow the ship to sink. And the Japanese squadron blocked the road to the real depths.
      4. Walking
        Walking 13 May 2018 19: 27
        +5
        Quote: Nehist
        Well, the fact that the Rudnev naval officer corps despised this well-known fact.


        Which naval officers despised Rudnev? Those who surrendered on the ships of Nebogatov or those who did not get to the war at all?
  13. another RUSICH
    another RUSICH 13 May 2018 09: 48
    +11
    Quote: Banshee
    Where is slop? About the "heroic death of" Varyag "or something? You, gentlemen, master the second button slowly. And head at the same time. And for one-button and single-cell I explain on behalf of the authors: the article is not against" Varyag ", but for Aurora.
    But for this purpose it was necessary to read it at least line by line.

    Yes, yes ... Somewhere it was already ... Ah, yes: we are not against Russia, we are against the Communists ..
  14. Cannonball
    Cannonball 13 May 2018 09: 53
    +6
    “Varangian” is an American of pure blood, “Aurora” is Russian.
    In fact, the prototype for both cruisers was the English cruiser HMS Talbot (built in 1895) and the French armored cruiser D'Entrecasteaux (built in 1896). More precisely, these prototypes were chosen for cruisers of the Diana type, and for the Varangian, the prototype became cruisers of the Diana type with numerous changes to the project.
    Yes, the "Varangian" was built in Philadelphia. But it was built according to the Russian order, according to the Russian project. Equipment for the construction and equipment of the ship for the most part came from firms located in the United States. At the same time, the main caliber guns were delivered from Obukhovsky, and torpedo tubes from the St. Petersburg Metal Works. In England, anchors, anchor chains and anti-torpedo nets were ordered.
    Aurora also had a lot of foreign-made equipment, so there is no need to talk about the "purity" of American or Russian blood.
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 13 May 2018 10: 20
      +2
      The requirements for the 1st class scout were formulated on the basis of counteraction to the Japanese ships of the Kasagi type (4500t., 22,5uz. 2-203mm, 10-120mm), therefore they had to have 6000t. displacement, 23 knots of speed and have 12 -152mm guns. Because and “Varyag” and the further development of this type of “Askold” with “Bogatyr” were supposed for the Far East, it was the chosen caliber that was due to fire performance to surpass the Japanese non-armored cruisers with 8 "artillery. So Russian cruisers of this type were created for a specific opponent
      1. Cannonball
        Cannonball 13 May 2018 10: 38
        +2
        As a prototype for the construction of the Varyag, the shipyard management proposed to take the Kasagi type Japanese armored cruiser (Japanese 笠 置), but the Marine Technical Committee insisted on the Diana type cruiser.
        During the construction, significant changes were made to the project, dictated by the initially signed contract with vague wording on the parameters of the ship.
  15. BAI
    BAI 13 May 2018 09: 58
    +6
    There is no answer to even more simple question. And what prevented the "Varyag" to go out to sea at night? The speed of the ship allowed it to go into the open sea and already there to give if not a serious battle to the enemy, then a full turn?

    Does the author understand what he is writing? Leave yourself, leaving a weaker comrade?
    The speed of the “Korean” is 13,5 knots.

    It would be interesting to see the reaction to the article of the crew of the current "Varyag".
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 13 May 2018 10: 38
      +2
      Quote: BAI
      Does the author understand what he is writing? Leave yourself, leaving a weaker comrade?

      There is a tactic, and it involves knowing how to win the battle. How to use these forces to achieve the task. Questions arise about the tactical link of the high-speed cruiser (theoretically) with a boat that was built to fulfill its specific tasks. So brainwash, which was preferable at that time wink . break through with a known slow-moving partner, or without him. The advantage was the use of two obsolete 203mm 35 caliber guns firing smoke powder or not.
      Therefore, the commander of the detachment, which includes such ships, must decide what is more important. And what kind of breakthrough can we talk about if you use the entrusted ships exactly as Rudnev used ?! Yes, not about what. Designated a breakthrough type (to clear conscience) and went back. That's the whole tactic. So no one wanted to break through. This is a bitter truth ...
      1. Cannonball
        Cannonball 13 May 2018 11: 52
        +9
        For the abandonment of the “Korean” Rudnev would be tried in disgrace. For the delivery of ships - the same thing. He had a very difficult situation - the bay was blocked by the Japanese fleet with a clear (more than 10 times the superiority of forces on the Japanese side). For some reason, the fact about the presence in Chemulpo of hospital ships from Europe and the USA, which by no means want to help solve this problem, is being hushed up, but on the contrary, in the case of accepting a battle in a raid, the probability of accidentally entering these ships became more than high. And this is Casus belli for the "Varangian" and for Russia as a whole .. And because of this, to jeopardize the likelihood of war with the British, French, Italians and Americans - do you really want a lot of captain from rank 1?
      2. BAI
        BAI 13 May 2018 14: 06
        +2
        . And what kind of breakthrough can we talk about if you use the entrusted ships exactly as Rudnev used ?! Yes, not about what.

        Here's a breakthrough:
        At 10 hours 45 minutes [after building the crew, Rudnev addressed the team:
        “Brothers, I received a proposal from the Japanese admiral to leave the raid before 12 o’clock, otherwise he will attack us with the entire squadron in the raid. The number of ships of the squadron is unknown, but we don’t need to know, we will still go into battle and support the honor of the Russian flag. Remember, brethren, that we will fight to the last opportunity and will not give up, and therefore do all your duties precisely, put out without publicity in case of fire, and calmly close holes. I especially hope for the commandors: aim without haste so that each shell hits the enemy. God help us! We will conquer ourselves with the banner of the cross and go boldly into the battle for faith, the king and the fatherland. Hooray!

        Rudnev did not know with whom to deal. Neither the speed nor the armament of the enemy were unknown to him. Only one thing was known - the enemy is stronger. And he took the fight.

        The Italian sailors of the cruiser Elba welcome the cruiser Varyag and the gunboat Koreets leaving Chemulpo neutral raid to fight the Japanese squadron.

        Russian armored cruiser Varyag on the neutral Chemulpo raid after the battle with the Japanese squadron. The photo clearly shows a significant trim on the port side and stern due to damage caused by multiple hits of Japanese shells.
        If you blame the "Varangian" and "Korean", then only that
        During the battle, Chemulpo “Varyag” and “Korean” did not achieve a single hit in the Japanese ships, while losing 33 people killed and died from wounds, as well as about 200 people wounded. The Japanese had no casualties during the battle.

        By the way, along with warships, the Sungari transport was also flooded.
        1. Rurikovich
          Rurikovich 13 May 2018 16: 25
          +2
          Quote: BAI
          Rudnev did not know with whom to deal.

          Rudnev knew very well whom he was dealing with, because the day before that the “Korean” sent to Arthur had met with all the participants in the future battle and Belyaev could not tell Rudnev what he saw with his own eyes. Therefore, to say this seems strange
          1. BAI
            BAI 13 May 2018 16: 53
            +1
            “Korean” collided only with destroyers, with cruisers did not enter into a collision.
            1. Rurikovich
              Rurikovich 13 May 2018 21: 18
              +2
              Quote: BAI
              The "Korean" encountered only destroyers,

              The “Korean” ran into the entire Uriu squadron, the destroyers were sent only to interfere with the actions of the gunboat. The Japanese believed that they would be enough to deal with the Russian ship.
        2. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 13 May 2018 18: 55
          +1
          Quote: BAI
          cruiser "Varangian" on the Chemulpo neutral raid after the battle with the Japanese squadron. The photo clearly shows a significant trim on the port side and stern due to damage caused by multiple hits of Japanese shells.

          There is good reason to believe that the roll was the result of extensive damage to the bottom after flying to the stones as a result of a sloppy turn back in the fairway.
    2. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 13 May 2018 10: 42
      +7
      “Varyag” could not leave anywhere. The normal speed is 16 knots, for a short time 20, but the tubes in the boilers began to burst. The stokers were scalded, there were several fatal cases on both the Varyag and Retvisan. The stokers were simply afraid to approach the fireboxes.
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 13 May 2018 11: 10
        +2
        Quote: TermNachTER
        “Varyag” could not leave anywhere.

        Now, when everyone agrees with the reality frightening for the admirers of feats, then it will become clear that there could be no talk of any breakthrough. That's just they forget it with us - hands off from the "feat" of the "Varyag" ... BUT
        Commander commander discord. If V.I. Baer kept the ship in good condition and during the tests of 1903 the “Varangian” yielded 20,5 knots without tension, and the yapps after lifting and repair on the same boilers gave 22 knots.
        The question is how it turned out that over the year of Rudnev’s command, the team slipped to the point that it could not maintain a decent move. Maybe it's not in the boilers, but in relation to ?? Retvisan had no problems with boilers, but they are also Nikloss ...
        1. TermNachTer
          TermNachTer 13 May 2018 11: 13
          +6
          Dzhapy on "Varyag" put their boilers. It seems "miyabara" were called. At Retvisan, too, there were ruptures of pipes, possibly without serious consequences. In all the fleets of the world, Nikloss boilers were quickly abandoned due to their insecurity and danger to stokers.
        2. Cannonball
          Cannonball 13 May 2018 11: 54
          +5
          Niklossovsky boilers were still considered experimental, which means they are not yet reliable enough. "Retvmzan" quite possibly got the best quality boilers.
        3. Amurets
          Amurets 14 May 2018 03: 01
          +1
          Quote: Rurikovich
          The question is how it turned out that over the year of Rudnev’s command, the team slipped to the point that it could not maintain a decent move. Maybe it's not in the boilers, but in relation to ?? Retvisan had no problems with boilers, but they are also Nikloss ...

          And so. "In December 1902, according to the tradition established in the Russian Imperial Navy, the crew and the commander of the ship were replaced. The captain of the first rank Baer handed over the Varyag to the senior assistant to the port commander in Port Arthur, participant in three round-the-world voyages, captain of the first rank Vsevolod Fedorovich Rudnev. " http://istorex.ru/page/shishkov_ve_boy_varyaga_pr
          avda_ili_vimisel
          And what kind of team it was, I have how trained, nobody knows. Only the training campaign "Ocean" somehow eased the problem with personnel at TOE-1: "Therefore, as a savior, we were met in Port Arthur
          12-ton military transport "Ocean". Ship built-
          for training and practice of students of the Kronstadt machine-
          school, made his first of regularly planned
          flights on the Baltic - Far East route.
          The Maritime Ministry finally saw what incalculable losses it turns for the fleet
          training of train drivers and stokers in the antediluvian
          engine ships "- representatives of the beginning of the armored
          that “Do not touch me” and “Admiral Chichagov”. New significantly
          the sophisticated fleet technique required a new training base,
          what the "Ocean" has become. Two latest four-cylinder pa-
          level machines with a capacity of 5500 liters. s, seventeen water pipe
          boilers of the four most common systems:
          wily, Nikloss, Yarrow and Schultz allowed for a long
          training of really knowledgeable specialists
          own confidently manage the mechanisms of the latest ships.
          The direct commercial interests of Morskoye were not forgotten.
          ministries - the ship, except for training classes, had a capacity of
          solid holds for cargo and displacement were not inferior
          armadillos. Commander of the ship a wonderful officer
          Captain 1st Rank E. R. Egoriev, fast and successful re-
          the course (12 miles in 650 days) that hit the authorities and in
          Petersburg, and in Port Arthur 1. During unloading intended for Port Arthur
          20-day load of cargo, “Ocean” with all it could
          Gal standing at the forefront of the squadron. Many mechanics
          the first rank rabble was helped by priceless absentees
          dah port trivia like Klinger's water-measuring glasses, bannics
          and brushes of different sizes for water tube boilers
          dock, rings for Belleville boilers, etc. "R.M. Melnikov." Cruiser Varyag. "
        4. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 14 May 2018 09: 24
          +1
          Retvisan had no problems with boilers, but they are also Nikloss ...

          What does it mean there were no problems? In the very first passage from Philadelphia to Kronstadt, a fatal emergency
          On 1 on June 11.15, an emergency occurred that overshadowed the upcoming meeting with the motherland. When trying to develop full speed, a pipe burst in one of the boilers, and six stokers were burned with hot steam. Three of them — I. Kochergin, T. Ramenko and I. Korsakov — subsequently died. The MTK Commission, which investigated the causes of the accident, came to the conclusion that the unsuccessful design of the pipes in Nikloss boilers does not exclude the possibility of a similar occurrence in the future.

          In later times, for a similar "trouble-free operation" flew out of the fleet and it is good if not on the bunk. bully
          You just need to understand that armadillos and high-speed cruisers have quite different modes of operation of the CMU. And the need to give more than 13 nodes, "Retvizan" during the database was not
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 14 May 2018 09: 49
            +1
            That's it, he wrote that “Retvizane” had problems with boilers, like “Varyag”. Just did not remember exactly when. In general, Nikloss boilers were extremely unsuccessful. There were problems in all the fleets that used them. Therefore, they were quickly abandoned. Practice has shown that one of the best were “Yarrow”, which by the way stood on the “Athlete”
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 15 May 2018 15: 17
              +1
              Well, like Franks, Niklos even put on dreadnoughts: “Courbet”, “Brittany” ... they were complex and demanding on the qualification of stokers ... sabno, like all water pipes
              And on the “Hero” were the Normans.
              Yarou, at that time put on destroyers. Well, the Nevsky Plant put them on the pebbles, did not start switching to Tornicroft \ Shultsy. And then they (yarou) began to put on our dreadnoughts.
  16. TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 13 May 2018 10: 08
    +1
    A small clarification for the author - "Varyag" displacement of 6 tons, "Aurora" - 200 tons, the difference is one and a half thousand, for a lot of classmates. With such a displacement on the "Varyag" 7 - 700 - mm. on the Aurora - 12 GK. With a displacement of 152% more, we have GK 8% less. And yet, the “Varangian” gave out 20 knots at least by the measured mile, and the Aurora could not even reach 30 during the tests. Its participation in the Tsushima battle is also a very dubious enterprise - they ran right down to Manila. Why didn’t you try to Vladivostok?
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 13 May 2018 10: 29
      +3
      Quote: TermNachTER
      "Varyag" displacement of 6 tons, "Aurora" - 200 tons

      You specify, please, what is this displacement. There is a standard, normal and complete. So, for Aurora, in reference books the standard is indicated in 6700t., "Varyag" - 6500t. (S. Suliga. Ships of the Russian-Japanese war.) hi
      1. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 13 May 2018 10: 30
        +1
        Adapted from Melnikov’s books “Cruiser Varyag” and “Cruiser Aurora”.
        1. Rurikovich
          Rurikovich 13 May 2018 10: 44
          +1
          Quote: TermNachTER
          Adapted from Melnikov’s books “Cruiser Varyag” and “Cruiser Aurora”.

          At Polenov on page 93 (Cruiser Aurora) it is written that at the time of commissioning after the last test on September 18, 1903, the Aurora had a displacement of 6731 tons. hi
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 13 May 2018 10: 48
            +1
            Sorry, I'll take a book and see. Maybe wrong
            1. TermNachTer
              TermNachTer 13 May 2018 12: 08
              +2
              I agree. These numbers are available. But I think they are not final. After tests on the ship, not all state-owned cargo could be located. As you know, the manufacturer could impose a fine on the company’s displacement, and not very frail. So I think that the slave displacement of the Aurora was still more.
        2. Amurets
          Amurets 14 May 2018 01: 26
          +1
          Quote: TermNachTER
          Adapted from Melnikov’s books “Cruiser Varyag” and “Cruiser Aurora”.

          Melnikov does not have a book about Cruiser Aurora, this book was written by Polenov. And the Japanese did not change the boilers on the Varangian.
          On the second day of the campaign, on the morning of July 8, 1916, the Varyag broke
          there are two pipes in boiler No. 3. Trying to close the valves, which
          would take the boiler out of action, got older steam burns
          non-commissioned non-commissioned officer Konstantin Yakovlev and the first stoker
          articles by Ivan Kuzapeev. Burns were fatal for
          the young sailor Ivan Korolev, who in six hours
          died in the infirmary 2. Nikloss boilers have found a new
          sacrifice. In the evening, according to the old custom, they performed the rite
          burial at sea: a short stop in the middle of the ocean, lowered
          flags on ships, command line and requiem at the body died-
          that, a lone shot of mourning salute from the "Varyag" ...... In the ongoing military exercises and joint maneuvers
          sometimes lasting several hours, traveled to
          Singapore. Here the commission appointed by the admiral, set-
          la that it will be necessary to replace up to 600 water pipes
          with "lights", about 30 junction boxes and order no-
          evaporators (Nikloss boilers fed only desalinated
          water) with a capacity of 40 t / day, as available
          already at a 12-knot move they could not cope with the completion of the loss
          water in boilers 2. R.M. Melnikov "Cruiser Varyag."
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 14 May 2018 09: 53
            +1
            I agree, the book about Aurora was written by Polenov. And the fact that on the "Varyag" stood the Japanese boilers "Miyabara" in many sources is written. Melnikov could have a mistake. So it is said that due to their unreliability, the replacement was made very soon. If sclerosis doesn’t fail me in 1908.
      2. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 13 May 2018 10: 36
        +2
        Again, the “Varangian” went into battle with a normal load, and the “Aurora” had coal “in overload” even on deck. Because such a concept is somewhat relative. I had in mind the general backwardness of both developers and builders. May comrades on this and other branches forgive me. But for the same money, it was possible to order "heroes" in Germany.
        1. Rurikovich
          Rurikovich 13 May 2018 10: 47
          +4
          Quote: TermNachTER
          Forgive me comrades on this and other branches. But for the same money, it was possible to order "heroes" in Germany

          The “hero” for cloning has already been chosen as a field of comparison with other projects of this technical task (“Varyag” and “Askold”), therefore it is very difficult to decide which is more preferable, especially when ships are being built in different countries. request
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 13 May 2018 11: 15
            +1
            But they built it quickly. Why it was impossible to order yet, and not wait until “Oleg” is “pounded” in Leningrad?
            1. Rurikovich
              Rurikovich 13 May 2018 11: 26
              +1
              Quote: TermNachTER
              But they built it quickly. Why it was impossible to order yet, and not wait until “Oleg” is “pounded” in Leningrad?

              Do not forget that foreign shipyards have their own orders. Order two ships at once for Vulcan, then they can build two for the war. Moreover, the shipyard’s capabilities must be taken into account ...
            2. Cannonball
              Cannonball 13 May 2018 11: 56
              +2
              Did the Japanese agree to wait?
              1. TermNachTer
                TermNachTer 13 May 2018 12: 11
                +2
                I agree. Could catch, could not catch. But why, instead of not very successful "goddesses", not order the same three "heroes", in the same time frame?
                1. Cannonball
                  Cannonball 13 May 2018 12: 32
                  +4
                  Bookmark "hero" occurred two years after the bookmark "goddesses". Therefore, building “instead” did not work out in any way, only in addition. After all, money for their construction has already been allocated and to a large extent mastered. To abandon their completion means to lose both time and money. Besides where to build "substitute" "Athletes"? Volcano would not have mastered this additional order.
                  1. TermNachTer
                    TermNachTer 13 May 2018 19: 22
                    +1
                    In addition to the Volcano, there were enough shipyards in Germany. So without much accuracy - I think about a dozen who "pulled" such a construction. Yes, and the "Volcano" is not one slipway and an extension wall of sufficient length to complete several ships at once. I agree that the "Pallas" and "Diana" were laid earlier. But the Aurora could already be built according to the German project
                    1. Cannonball
                      Cannonball 13 May 2018 21: 09
                      +3
                      It is highly doubtful that Vulcan would agree to pass on its design documentation to competitors. As you know, all the other “Bogatyrs” were already being built in Russia, at the freed shipyards. In addition, until 1907-1909, before the construction of new shipyards in Hamburg, the company's shipbuilding capabilities were quite limited.
                      In total, the “Volcano” built entirely: 8 passenger liners, 11 battleships and battleships, 10 cruisers, 6 destroyers, 6 type VII submarines, 35 destroyers.

                      According to the "goddesses":

                      The set of hulls of the first two cruisers on the Galerny Islet began in July 1896, and the third in the New Admiralty in October of that year.
                      On May 23, 1897, the official laying of all three armored cruisers of the Diana type took place in the presence of Admiral Aleksei Aleksandrovich. At 10-30 the first cruiser Aurora was laid down in the New Admiralty, and later the ceremony was repeated for the other two ships on the Galerny Islet.
                      1. TermNachTer
                        TermNachTer 14 May 2018 09: 54
                        0
                        Well, not a "Hero". Askold is better than goddesses. Why not order Askold?
                    2. Rurikovich
                      Rurikovich 13 May 2018 21: 20
                      +1
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      In addition to the Volcano, there were enough shipyards in Germany.

                      So do not forget that the Germans also built their ships in their shipyards wink
                    3. Senior seaman
                      Senior seaman 14 May 2018 09: 33
                      +2
                      I agree that the "Pallas" and "Diana" were laid earlier. But the Aurora could already be built according to the German project

                      The construction of all three ships began almost at the same time. The official laying of 23 on May 1897 of the year, and directly work on the wooden slipway of the New Admiralty - 7 of September 1896.
                      And German projects appeared as a result of the adoption of the program "For the needs of the Far East" 1898 of the year. Let's say the contract for Bogatyr was signed on August 5, and the bookmark (most likely official) on December 21 is 1899.
                      1. TermNachTer
                        TermNachTer 14 May 2018 09: 56
                        +1
                        Usually the official bookmark occurs a little later than the real one. When parts of the bottom set are already installed on the slipway.
                2. Rurikovich
                  Rurikovich 13 May 2018 13: 14
                  +2
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  But why, instead of not very successful "goddesses", not order the same three "heroes", in the same time frame?

                  According to the Program, the “Bogatyr” project was chosen - it’s another matter that the Japanese managed to build their ships earlier and realizing that the delay in death similarly started the war earlier than the Russians managed to build their ships for the needs of the Far East, which was supposed to be completed in 1905. All Borodino was built for the Far East. So by the end of 1905 Russia could have 10 modern armadillos (5 types of "Borodino", "Tsesarevich", "Retvizan" and the three "Peresvet", 4 armored cruisers, 7 cruisers of the 1st rank (three types of "Diana", "Bogatyr" with Oleg, Askold and Varyag), 4 - 2 ranks (Boyarin, Novik, Pearls and Emerald). Not what was planned, but enough to resist 6 armadillos and 6 armored cruisers of the Japanese. Japan was one year ahead and quite robust actions were enough to destroy Russian claims in two visits
                  1. TermNachTer
                    TermNachTer 13 May 2018 19: 28
                    +3
                    Russia made several mistakes. For example, it was possible to buy Italian cruisers, who later became the Nissin and Kasuga. After all, Italians first proposed them to Russia
        2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 May 2018 14: 46
          +2
          Quote: TermNachTER
          Again, the "Varangian" went into battle with a normal load, and the "Aurora" had coal "in overload" even on deck

          Sorry, but who told you this nonsense? The normal supply of coal for cruisers of the Aurora type is 800 tons, the total - 972 tons. The day before the battle, the coal reserve at Aurora was 902 tons
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 13 May 2018 19: 26
            +2
            I recalled a photograph of how coal was laid on a deck between guns.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 May 2018 19: 42
              +2
              Quote: TermNachTER
              I recalled a photograph of how coal was laid on a deck between guns.

              It was, but not before the battle :)))
              1. TermNachTer
                TermNachTer 13 May 2018 19: 46
                +4
                Then I apologize. I did not know the exact figures for coal on the Aurora before the Tsushima battle, because I assumed that before the battle they were loaded to the maximum.
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 May 2018 20: 10
                  +5
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  Then I apologize.

                  Absolutely not at all :)))) And what I quoted above is a book from the cruiser Almaz, where the remains of coal were brought in according to the reports of the ships of the squadron, that is, a very, very reliable source.
                  the fact is that Rozhdestvensky was not at all as stupid as it is customary to portray - yes, he overloaded the ships with coal at the crossing in order to bunker less often and, in general, have a reserve in case of something. But he brought the squadron to Tsushima not overloaded, but with enough coal reserves for the battle and the subsequent passage to Vladivostok (taking into account the inevitable damage and increased coal consumption after those) - and nothing more.
                  1. Nehist
                    Nehist 13 May 2018 23: 00
                    +2
                    Here !!! The myth that coal was overloaded is very stable. Although all the ships of the world at that time suffered from construction overload.
                    1. TermNachTer
                      TermNachTer 14 May 2018 00: 44
                      +1
                      Construction overload and coal are slightly different things. Especially if coal was taken to the deck. Stability in the open ocean is not an unimportant thing
                      1. Nehist
                        Nehist 14 May 2018 02: 20
                        +2
                        There are photos of 2 TOE ships a day before the battle and coal is not visible anywhere on the deck
      3. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 13 May 2018 10: 39
        +1
        Adapted from Melnikov’s books - “Cruiser Varyag” and “Cruiser Aurora”. Both ships are considered from the moment of design and delivery of those. order.
      4. arturpraetor
        arturpraetor 13 May 2018 13: 58
        +2
        Stop-stop ... Um, colleague, I run the risk of seeming to be a bore, but did Suliga take off the standard displacement in the manual on the REV? There, in principle, this is not indicated anywhere, only normal and complete, design or actual. For one simple reason - during the RNE, the concepts of standard displacement in principle did not yet exist. At the end of the directory it is indicated what displacement and what kind of macaroni gives Suliga, and the following is obtained:
        - "Varangian" - 6500 tons of project normal, 7022 tons of actual normal;
        - "Aurora" - 6731 tons of project normal, 6897 tons of actual normal.
        1. Rurikovich
          Rurikovich 13 May 2018 15: 44
          +1
          Quote: arturpraetor
          For one simple reason - during the RNE, the concepts of standard displacement in principle did not yet exist.

          I do not argue yes
          But not the 7700 above
          1. arturpraetor
            arturpraetor 13 May 2018 16: 34
            +1
            That is yes. By the way, pay attention that the construction overload of Aurora turned out to be less than that of Varyag - like this, an unexpected laughing
          2. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 13 May 2018 19: 25
            +3
            Colleagues, for 7 tons, I apologized - dumb. Please do not refer anymore.
            1. Rurikovich
              Rurikovich 13 May 2018 21: 21
              +1
              Don't worry
              Quote: TermNachTER
              Please do not refer anymore.

              we are about hi
    2. unknown
      unknown 19 May 2018 00: 16
      0
      On the "Varangian" -6 guns in the airborne salvo, on the "Aurora" -5 guns in the airborne salvo.
      By speed: for a very long time and persistently everyone wrote that the contours of the “goddesses” were unsuccessful, because of this, allegedly, also a shortage of speed. The Japanese, apparently, did not hear anything about it. But, when they restored the “Pallada”, they changed the placement of variable cargoes, and ... lo and behold. The ship stopped burying its nose, and began to walk at a speed of 21 knots. Without much stress. And there was a modernization potential in armaments. "Aurora" at the end of the WWII received 14 6 "guns.
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 19 May 2018 10: 50
        0
        It was like this at Tsushima with reference to Incheon. I really didn’t look, and I didn’t find any evidence. True, you can’t say that I tried too hard :)))
        As far as I understand, the Japanese, having been weird with the loads, fixed the trim and replaced the screws. There was no slender theory of screws at that time, and they were made every time to the best of his understanding. And the "goddesses" simply lingered in the building, and even became obsolete on the slipway and nobody began to bother with them. But the fact that the CMU showed at 700-800 more than the project’s strength on tests is a fact.
  17. Cannonball
    Cannonball 13 May 2018 10: 18
    +5
    "Varangian" possessed (theoretically) greater speed

    Why "theoretically"? During sea trials, the Aurora issued 19,28 knots, and the Varangian - 24,59 knots. More than 5 knots is a very big difference.
    Armament difference was, "Varyag" had a bigger and more impressive in terms of guns and torpedo tubes.
    It’s funny to read such an “argument”. In fact, more guns were on the Aurora, if you count by the number of trunks:

    Aurora (44 barrels, 3 TA)
    8 x 152 mm / 45 Kane guns;
    24 x 75 mm / 50 Kane guns;
    8 x 37 mm / 22,8 guns Hotchkiss;
    2 x 63,5 mm / 19 Baranovsky guns;
    2 x 7,62 mm machine guns.
    3 x 381 mm TA.

    "Varangian" (38 trunks, 8 TA, mines)
    12 x 152 mm / 45 Kane guns;
    12 x 75 mm / 50 Kane guns;
    8 x 47 mm / 40 guns Hotchkiss;
    2 x 37 mm / 22,8 guns Hotchkiss;
    2 x 63,5 mm / 19 Baranovsky guns
    2 x 7,62 mm machine gun;
    6 x 381 mm SLT;
    2 x 254 mm TA (for boats);
    35 minutes.

    Another thing is that 12 six-inch versus 8 is a very substantial advantage.
    1. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 13 May 2018 10: 31
      +4
      If by quantity, then yes. But if in terms of firing range and the destructive effect of shells?
      1. Cannonball
        Cannonball 13 May 2018 10: 46
        +3
        On both cruisers there were guns of the same caliber and systems (with the exception of the 47-mm guns of Hotchkiss, which were available on the Varyag and absent on the Aurora). So the firing range and the destructive effect of the shells were also equal. Here, the "weight of the main volley" of the main caliber is more important. The “Varangian” it was carried out by six six-inch, the “Aurora” - 6th.
        1. TermNachTer
          TermNachTer 13 May 2018 12: 14
          +2
          At the "Aurora" bow and stern guns stood in the diametrical plane. And at the "Varyag" they stood in pairs. It was assumed that it was more important for the cruiser to have the maximum possible fire power in the bow and stern. In general, the issue of rearranging the bow and stern guns of the Varyag was also discussed during its construction. And there were permutation options. So the “Varangian” could well have in the airborne volley 8 GK.
          1. Cannonball
            Cannonball 13 May 2018 12: 41
            +3
            If we look at the artillery of these cruisers from this side, we get the following picture: the Aurora had three 152 mm guns in the bow direction, five in the stern direction. The "Varangian" and there, and there - four guns. The disadvantage of "Varyag" can be considered the absence of protective shields on the main guns.
            1. TermNachTer
              TermNachTer 13 May 2018 19: 48
              +1
              On the "Aurora" shields put later. Initially, the GC was also “naked”.
              1. Cannonball
                Cannonball 13 May 2018 20: 44
                +2

                View of the "Aurora" after Tsushima in the port of Manila.

                As you can see, the shields were available.
                1. TermNachTer
                  TermNachTer 13 May 2018 21: 36
                  +2
                  I meant, before Tsushima. They left the factory without shields.
                  1. Cannonball
                    Cannonball 13 May 2018 22: 14
                    +2
                    In the photographs from the tests, there really are no shields, but there is a mortgage plate of the cruiser Aurora

                    Something similar to artillery shields on the tank and yutovye guns is clearly present. Perhaps the shields were put in the period of understaffing or before sending the Aurora to the Far East.
                    1. TermNachTer
                      TermNachTer 13 May 2018 22: 35
                      +1
                      I don’t know when exactly the shields were installed. But Polenov writes that there was a discussion about the shields, but the ship left the factory without shields. They were installed later, according to the experience of fighting in the Far East.
                      1. Cannonball
                        Cannonball 13 May 2018 22: 45
                        +1
                        Quite possible. A similar practice of modernizing equipment and weapons based on the results of their combat use exists to this day. An example is the operation in Syria, "providing food for the mind" to weapons designers.
                    2. Senior seaman
                      Senior seaman 14 May 2018 09: 40
                      +1
                      The shields were abandoned in the process of completion, when it turned out that there was a construction overload. Then the amount of HA was reduced.
                      Actually, it’s quite easy to distinguish “Aurora” in the photo from the shields from “Dasha” and “Broadsword”.
                2. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 14 May 2018 09: 37
                  +1
                  By the way, in this photo in high resolution it is clearly visible that the second pair of six-inch shields does not. there, a fit was required because of the boat rosters and therefore did not bother in a hurry.
          2. Cannonball
            Cannonball 13 May 2018 12: 48
            +2
            Quote: TermNachTER
            So the “Varangian” could well have in the airborne volley 8 GK.
            With the arrangement of guns that took place, only 7, and then purely theoretically, with a narrow range of angles of fire.
          3. Rurikovich
            Rurikovich 13 May 2018 13: 23
            +2
            Quote: TermNachTER
            In general, the issue of rearranging the bow and stern guns of the Varyag was discussed during its construction.


            The Japanese did it
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 13 May 2018 19: 00
              +1
              No, EMNIP in the book of Melnikov it was written that the permutation was made when the cruiser returned under the Andreev flag.
              1. Rurikovich
                Rurikovich 13 May 2018 21: 28
                +1
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                EMNIP in the book of Melnikov it was written that the permutation was made when the cruiser returned under the Andreev flag.

                Agree hi In Japanese photos, the guns are in pairs ... recourse

                Most likely the reshuffle was in Vladik in 1916 after the regaining of the cruiser
    2. Monarchist
      Monarchist 13 May 2018 14: 42
      +1
      As I recall: all these Hotchkisses and Baranovsky were "dead weight" on the ship and after Tsushima they began to get rid of them
      1. Cannonball
        Cannonball 13 May 2018 14: 55
        +1
        "Hotchkisses" are anti-mine guns, they are suitable, at best they are suitable against destroyers and close combat.
        Baranovsky’s cannons - for amphibious assault, in case part of the team participates in land battles.
  18. BAI
    BAI 13 May 2018 10: 19
    +4
    By the way, I found another interesting fact in the development of the story with Varyag.
    In 1906, another gunboat of the same name, belonging to the Gilyak type, was laid at the Putilov factory (all 4 ships of the series bore the names of gunboats who died in the Russo-Japanese War). "Korean II" was blown up in August 1915 to avoid capture by the enemy during the Battle of the Gulf of Riga.

    The new ship, one in one repeated the fate of its predecessor.
    By the way, the fact that a new ship was named after him also says something.
  19. sevtrash
    sevtrash 13 May 2018 10: 23
    +5
    Politics above all, history can and should be sacrificed to it. The legend of 28 Panfilov’s is also a myth. At the same time, Panfilov himself and his 316th division made a significant contribution to the defense of Moscow, but remained as if in the shadow of a myth.
    The battle of Thermopylae was essentially a loss to the Greeks because of betrayal, the withdrawal of part of the troops because of fear of encirclement, but, probably, this also remained in the shadow of 300 Spartans.
    1. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 13 May 2018 10: 33
      +2
      I wonder who counted these Spartans on the head? Maybe there were much fewer or more?
      1. sevtrash
        sevtrash 13 May 2018 11: 18
        +3
        Quote: TermNachTER
        I wonder who counted these Spartans on the head? Maybe there were much fewer or more?

        There should have been 300 of them, these guardsmen - hoplites - horsemen. Elite squad, no less no more. In the 2nd Messenian war, 300 were also killed.
        1. TermNachTer
          TermNachTer 13 May 2018 21: 40
          0
          I’m not so hot any expert on the history of Ancient Greece, as far as I remember, the Boeotian sacred detachment was. But about the Spartans, I have not heard this. Their military service was the sacred duty of each and every citizen of military age.
          1. sevtrash
            sevtrash 13 May 2018 22: 26
            0
            Quote: TermNachTER
            I’m not so hot any expert on the history of Ancient Greece, as far as I remember, the Boeotian sacred detachment was. But about the Spartans, I have not heard this. Their military service was the sacred duty of each and every citizen of military age.

            It’s kind of like an elite detachment, 300 people, which existed in peacetime.
      2. albert
        albert 13 May 2018 21: 41
        0
        There was still a thousandth detachment of soldiers from the city of Thespia, except for the Spartans.
        1. sevtrash
          sevtrash 13 May 2018 22: 28
          +2
          In addition to the Spartans, there were 5-6 thousand different Greeks.
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 13 May 2018 22: 37
            0
            But everyone else then “screwed up”, only the Spartans remained to cover the withdrawal. The question is why exactly 300, not 500 or 1000? Just a pretty figure?
            1. sevtrash
              sevtrash 14 May 2018 07: 54
              +1
              Quote: TermNachTER
              The question is why exactly 300, not 500 or 1000? Just a pretty figure?

              The figure from the Spartans, sort of. Hippagrets - these were the names in Sparta of three young people who were elected by the efors from among citizens who had just reached 30 years of age. They were instructed to select each of the hundred most valiant young men from among those who had not yet reached the age of 30, and, in order to avoid being accused of hypocrisy, they had to explain the reason for their election of precisely those, and not other persons. The 300 youths thus chosen bore the honorable name of "horsemen" - hippies. Although they were on foot. They were guards, beside the king. The Thebans also had an elite squad of 300, sort of like warriors. Perhaps, also because in Athens 100 delegations were delegated from each clan association - phyla, then 50 people to the City Council. In Sparta there were 3 phyla of the Dorians. Of these, Riddick is probably from.
  20. Cannonball
    Cannonball 13 May 2018 10: 30
    +9
    If the "Varyag" is perceived unequivocally as a ship-hero, then about the "Aurora" there are many often opposing opinions. Part of society is in favor of preserving the ship-museum for educating young people on heroic examples of seafarers' exploits. The other part is in favor of cutting the ship "into needles" as a part, quite a large part, of the revolution. The October Revolution, which stirred up not only Russian, but also world history, changed the structure of the world in general.

    Nonsense is complete. The opinion of a small handful of liberalists who "do not remember kinship" can be attributed to statistical error. The Aurora is undoubtedly a part of our history, a symbol of the era, therefore it definitely deserves to be preserved as a monument ship. And if anyone does not like the “revolutionary” past of this cruiser, then let them treat this ship as a monument to the Russo-Japanese War of 1904/1905, as a monument to sailors who died and survived the Tsushima battle.
  21. Cannonball
    Cannonball 13 May 2018 10: 36
    +15
    In general, the vile article is a set of real facts mixed with speculation, dubious memories, obvious fraud, and the conclusion imposed by the aftor. Was he himself a participant in those events in order to draw similar conclusions? Was not. So the author -> author -> author - "pop Gapon", with a corresponding attitude to himself and to his, so to speak, opus.
  22. Captain Pushkin
    Captain Pushkin 13 May 2018 10: 45
    +9
    What is the point of contrasting the “Varangian” with the “Aurora”? They are part of our story. History of the country and the fleet. Cruiser stories. As she is.
    1. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 13 May 2018 12: 01
      +6
      By the way, there are only two surviving Tsushima participants. There are only two armored cruisers. And the Americans, it seems, will lose Olympia.
      Why don't we keep that little that remains.
      1. Antares
        Antares 13 May 2018 22: 33
        +4
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        By the way, there are only two surviving Tsushima participants. There are only two armored cruisers

        Aurora / Mikasa?
        I am sure that they will somehow save Olympia. There is an amount of 20 million.
        And Mikasu was also not left alone in WW2. The Americans bombed her. Should this be considered participation in the war?
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 14 May 2018 09: 44
          +3
          Should this be considered participation in the war?

          If there were still anti-aircraft guns on it, then, I believe, yes.
          The participation of "Aurora" also came down to fire on airplanes, well, and the art was sent ashore. They even put a tank on an armored train, although it was certainly not the same gun that "announced" :)
  23. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 13 May 2018 11: 59
    +15
    Hmm ... a strange impression of the article.
    If I may, I’ll note a couple of points.
    The fairway in Incheon (or Chemulpo if you like) is not at all narrow. There is something about a kilometer in the narrowest part. But, on this fairway a lot of shallows. And that is characteristic, echo sounders at that far time have not yet been invented. Therefore, you can go along the fairway only when framing with coastal landmarks. And this is by no means a quick matter.
    Therefore, all of these: “why was going at such a low speed”, “why didn’t leave the“ Korean ”,“ why didn’t go at night ”, no more than talking in favor of the poor.

    As for the cruiser Aurora and its correspondence with the Varangian. Comparing a little is not correct. They were built according to different programs and between the start of design work for about three years. At that time it was a lot, progress was leaps and bounds, and, as it is not sad, our shipbuilding industry did not have time. Although the main reason for long-term construction is not so much backwardness (which was the place to be), but rather extremely insufficient funding. When the money was allocated on time, our shipyards did not lag behind the western ones. At least not too much.
    And finally. Well, where is the Aurora ship loser? Yes, he is lucky! (He, because the cruiser !!!) I didn’t have time to Port Arthur, I left Tsuisma, stood in the mess on the PML, and after the devastation of the Civil War was almost the only ship that had undergone major repairs.
    Remembering who was the first victim on it (in the Gul incident), maybe this is a good omen? repeat
    1. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 13 May 2018 12: 17
      +3
      Alas, they lagged behind quite a lot. See the construction dates for large ships in the USA, England, Germany. And compare with Russia. This refers to the beginning of the 20th century.
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 13 May 2018 12: 52
        +7
        Yes, no question :) "Victory" tab 18 in May 1898 commissioning - October 1902. (ie 4,5 of the year) "Charles Martel" tab April 1891 commissioning June 1897 (ie 6 years). "Oregon" laid down in 1891 entered service in 1896. (a little less than five years).
        I repeat, this is all a matter of financing. “Aurora” in the New Admiralty (champion of long-term construction!) Was built for seven years (!), And they managed with a much more complex “Oleg” in two. (Well, here, of course, I was hurt by the burned-down Vityaz, but the building was built from scratch anyway)
        1. TermNachTer
          TermNachTer 13 May 2018 19: 52
          +1
          In France, unfinished construction was the norm, as was Russia. I offered to compare with England or Germany. In the USA, the same thing sometimes happened unfinished, due to some purely "state" troubles.
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 14 May 2018 09: 53
            +2
            I repeat, this is a purely organizational matter. Most Borodins built in four years. (Suvorov altogether a little less than three 08.09.1901-27.08.1904) Four were built on the Mikasu at Vickers.
            The Germans also had a wild mess before Tirpitz sold the Law on the Fleet, since the funding had stabilized, the Germans baked ships like hot cakes
            1. TermNachTer
              TermNachTer 15 May 2018 13: 45
              +1
              Actually, England was a role model. The Germans sometimes had the same delays, but mainly due to the fault of the customer. Look at the construction time of Askold, Novik, or the Japanese Izumi or Izuma, I always confuse them, the difference is one letter.
              1. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 15 May 2018 14: 24
                +3
                Colleague, you will not believe it, but we also had delays mainly due to the fault of the customer :)))
                Either he’s a scoundrel has no money, then he will redo the project, then he’ll put some kind of boatman on shipbuilders :))))
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 22 May 2018 12: 01
          0
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          Yes, no question :) "Victory" tab 18 in May 1898 commissioning - October 1902. (ie 4,5 of the year) "Charles Martel" tab April 1891 commissioning June 1897 (ie 6 years). "Oregon" laid down in 1891 entered service in 1896. (a little less than five years).
          I repeat, this is all a matter of financing.

          It is not only about financing, but also about the organization of work. The Pobeda (and Peresvet) were built by the Baltzavod, which was initially private and transferred to the treasury with the preservation of the existing orders at the plant. But the head "retraiser" - "Oslyabya" - was built by the state Admiralty.
          Result: while the Admiralty tortured Oslyabyu, the Baltzavod managed to build 2 identical EBRs in a row, and at such a time that they managed to become part of 1 TOE before the start of the nuclear warfare. And the head "Oslyabya" before the war did not have time in the Far East - it reached only Djibouti.
          The main scourge of our shipbuilding was a passion for improvement after the start of construction. Moreover, everyone was engaged in improvement — MTK, fleet commanders, future ship commanders, even E.I. As a result, it was necessary to constantly change and reconcile projects according to a rather cumbersome scheme, which delayed the construction.
    2. Monarchist
      Monarchist 13 May 2018 14: 25
      +9
      “There are a lot of shallows on this fairway. And what is characteristic of echo sounders, at that far time has not yet been invented,” but for the authors, purely civilians, this does not say anything. They decided and decided: Rudnev is a coward (at best), and the rest are below the waterline
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 13 May 2018 19: 04
        +4
        Alas, colleague, I myself spent a lot of time and nerve cells in the Internet network trying to resolve the question: could Varyag develop the 20 nodal move.
        And only recently (relatively :)) having talked with a merchant marine sailor who visited Incheon, I realized that these disputes are about nothing :(
        1. TermNachTer
          TermNachTer 14 May 2018 10: 04
          +2
          Kamrad is a significant issue. If the “Varangian” could really support 20 knots for a long time, then breaking out of Chemulpo without any particular damage, he had a chance to reach Port Arthur. But at 16 knots, does it matter where they drown him?
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 15 May 2018 14: 40
            +3
            At the fairway, he could not develop 20 nodes under any circumstances.
            Pass without damage to six enemy cruisers? Unscientific fiction.
            Regarding the condition of the machines, I wrote. Five test cycles before the war. More or less successful are the penultimate ones. The fact that he developed the 22 node in japs ​​... when did he develop it? How long has it been developing? At what load did you develop? Unclear. Judging by the state of the cruiser after it was bought back, they did not do anything major there, and he did not give more 17 nodes. Actually, the training ship is no longer needed, and it was training for the japs.
            And again, I’m never a mechanic or a shipbuilder, but as far as I understand from what I read, the main problem was the warming shaft bearings. On a new ship, this is a symptom of a construction mistake. The geometry is broken. This can be treated. Actually, with each overhaul of a ship that has served for a sufficiently long time, they do this, because the shafts tend to sag over time. Foundations are sagging ...
            So reasoning about the unreliable boilers of Niklos is also in favor of the poor. The main problem was not in them, but in their quantity :)) I will explain, usually when designing warships, a certain power reserve is laid. In this case, steam production. Say, on the “goddesses” mentioned here, he was about a third. This was done in case of unforeseen circumstances in the battle. The thrust will fall from the broken pipes, or part of the boilers will fail ... the ship must keep running. There were even plans after the war to remove the average car and the corresponding boiler group from Aurora for relief, but it did not grow together ...
            1. DimerVladimer
              DimerVladimer 16 May 2018 14: 00
              +4
              Quote: Senior Sailor
              At the fairway, he could not develop 20 nodes under any circumstances.
              Pass without damage to six enemy cruisers? Unscientific fiction.


              A fairway 1 km wide is a narrow fairway - with a ship almost 130 m long, its circulation at a speed of 20 knots will be 5-6 hull lengths - something in the region of 600-700 meters (if you do not earn extra money by cars).
              That is narrow. This can be seen in the lots of that time.

              Even the local pilot would not risk driving the ship at a speed of more than 10 knots with such a narrow fairway and even more so at night - he was late / hurried with a turn in the alignment for 30 seconds - flew off in shallow water. A sensible commander will not allow such a risk.
              1. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 16 May 2018 16: 40
                +1
                Sobsno about what I talked about.
                he was late / hurried with a turn in the alignment for 30 seconds - he flew away in shallow water.

                So the "Varangian" and flew away when he returned.
                1. Saxahorse
                  Saxahorse 16 May 2018 21: 53
                  +1
                  As far as I remember the description of the battle, he flew away after the first hit. And he stood there for about 20 minutes, seething in reverse.
                  1. Senior seaman
                    Senior seaman 17 May 2018 10: 53
                    0
                    It is very interesting, what did you read about the fight at Chemulpo?
                    Seems to me Abacus ...
                    1. Saxahorse
                      Saxahorse 17 May 2018 22: 34
                      0
                      I don’t remember already, but below is the battle plan for Chemulpo from Kataev. It shows that to the right the Varangian rolled either after the first or after the third hit. Well, on the damage diagram in the same book you can see that all subsequent hits were on the port side. A long hole at the bottom is also noted there. For this islet is not sandy at all, but a tall pile of stones.

                      The only question was whether the rudder was damaged at all or if the control was lost after the first hit in the wing of the bridge.
              2. Saxahorse
                Saxahorse 16 May 2018 21: 51
                0
                Quote: DimerVladimer
                A 1 km wide fairway is a narrow fairway

                Is it 1 km wide at low tide or low tide? As far as I remember, tides of impressive height in Icheon are almost 10 meters. With a Varyag draft of 6 meters, at full tide, it’s not only along the fairway, it will pass over most of the islands without scratching it.
                1. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 17 May 2018 11: 18
                  +1
                  If exactly 9,7 m. But this is the maximum value recorded for the entire time of observation. As I understand it, tides reach such values ​​in the fall. I can’t say anything, for 1904 but in 1950 the maximum tides were on 15 of September, 11 of October, 3 of November. Again, the maximum value does not hold all the time of the tide, but at the peak. The ebb and flow there, of the order of 5,5 nodes, which in turn leads to the formation of long sandbanks not indicated on any maps. Obviously, one of them, "Varya", and flew.
                  And still, in the presence of echo sounders, jeepies and other things, navigation in this area is considered difficult (for navigators and pilots essno, there’s no talk about you).
                  1. Saxahorse
                    Saxahorse 17 May 2018 22: 26
                    0
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    Tuesday January 27, 1904 Anchored at Chemulpo Raid Pennant at Midnight
                    1h10m Japanese destroyer weighed anchor and went to sea
                    Michman A. Schilling
                    5h Japanese destroyer appeared from the sea
                    5h50m Two Japanese vehicles dropped anchor and went to sea.
                    6h37m Japanese cruiser and 2 destroyers anchored.
                    7h. All Japanese ships were anchored and headed to sea.

                    Pay attention, in the middle of the night, in the dark, without radar, Japanese ships roam quietly that there that back. This suggests that at no time was the fairway so dangerous for passing as we are assured.
                    1. Saxahorse
                      Saxahorse 17 May 2018 22: 30
                      0
                      Strange quotation author system pointed out .. Above is inserted the quote "Cannonball" of course.
                    2. Senior seaman
                      Senior seaman 18 May 2018 08: 54
                      +1
                      Please note that it is not indicated anywhere that they did this on the 20 nodal move :)))
                      It is possible that the Japanese established signal points on the islands, according to which their ships could navigate.
                      In addition, it is written that it was precisely at night precisely the destroyers (1-10 and 5h) came out. And what have we got with the destroyers? Minarias of the same type from the 14 detachment "Hayabusa", "Tidori", "Manazuru" 150 tons of water. 1.45 meters of draft. We had such a license plate.
                      1. Saxahorse
                        Saxahorse 19 May 2018 01: 10
                        0
                        And two Japanese transport, the cruiser and the destroyers are not considered? All that before 7 o’clock is gone? :)

                        Look at what time the sunrise in Seoul on January 27, 1904. Everything is simpler, no spies, no one blew up the lighthouses. And the evening tide is quite high. Getting out at night is not a big deal.
    3. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 13 May 2018 19: 03
      0
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      The fairway in Incheon (or Chemulpo if you like) is not at all narrow. There is something about a kilometer in the narrowest part. But, on this fairway a lot of shallows.

      The fairway is wide but it has a bunch of shallows - it sounds pretty strange :)
      1. Cannonball
        Cannonball 13 May 2018 22: 55
        +1
        There are fairways surveyed by surveying and under-surveyed fairways that do not have maps and shallow depth guidance, but are tested by ships.

        Forcheon Incheon (Chemulpo)
        1. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 13 May 2018 22: 58
          0
          Thank you, I saw it.
      2. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 14 May 2018 09: 57
        +4
        Well, this is more a hello to Doinikov, blocking the fairway with the Sungari flooding (well, to me many-sinful).
        It’s just that you can go along such a channel, or you can, but you can only understand what you’re going through deep water, rather than rushing aground, only by determining your position. But the jeepies were not delivered ... By the way, on the way back, the "Varyag" still sat on the bank.
      3. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 16 May 2018 13: 12
        +2
        It will be correct to say - the strait leading to the port. There may be shallows on the fairway, because it is laid just in order to circumvent these shallows. Well, or deepens, if it is impossible to get around.
    4. Antares
      Antares 13 May 2018 22: 38
      +3
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      And finally. Well, where is the Aurora ship loser? Yes, he is lucky! (He, because the cruiser !!!) I didn’t have time to Port Arthur, I left Tsuisma, stood in the mess on the PML, and after the devastation of the Civil War was almost the only ship that had undergone major repairs.

      He was lucky only for one event. The same Cesarevich / Citizen should also save his life (fate was much more interesting). But dismantled for metal. Our heritage preservation culture did not imply the preservation of a single battleship / battleship!
      Maximum cruiser ....
  24. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 13 May 2018 12: 09
    +1
    [/ quote] As part of the 2th Baltic Fleet Cruiser Brigade, the Aurora carried out patrol service, laid mines, covered patrols, destroyed enemy airplanescovered minesweepers.

    But I would like to know more about this.
    the captain of 3 rank Sakov, with his power, placed the sailors in a safe place on the shore, leaving a permanent watch on anti-aircraft guns on the Aurora. For this, the cruiser commander was arrested and soon shot on charges of "panic" and "flight from the ship." [Quote]

    And more about that too, pzhlst
  25. Huumi
    Huumi 13 May 2018 12: 28
    +1
    Impressed ... Thanks ..
  26. Miner
    Miner 13 May 2018 12: 49
    +2
    As "Poltava" and "Admiral Ushakov" it was possible to shoot the Chinese with the main caliber.


    The question is about "Admiral Ushakov" - he, according to the Authors, was also captured by Japan?
    Well what a nonsense!


    And if this is a typo, then it should certainly be corrected.
  27. Cannonball
    Cannonball 13 May 2018 12: 53
    +10
    And it’s strange to somehow call “losers” ships that even people far from wars and navy remember after more than 110 years after their “failures”. All ships would have such a memory.
  28. Monarchist
    Monarchist 13 May 2018 14: 13
    +1
    Quote: BAI
    Admiral Rozhdestvensky was a rather unusual person. Among the lots of "whims" of the admiral was the following - he had the habit of giving nicknames entrusted to him by warships, very far from examples of elegant literature. So, the cruiser “Admiral Nakhimov” was called “Idiot”, the battleship “Sisoy the Great” - “Wheelchair refuge”, and so on. The squadron included two ships with female names - the former yacht Svetlana and Aurora. The commander called the first cruiser the "Maid", and the Aurora was awarded the title "Prostitute sub-fence".

    Interestingly, that served as the basis for such nicknames. After all, it was not from a hangover that he coined such nicknames, but by the way, what did he call “Eagle” - “Tails”?
    1. BAI
      BAI 13 May 2018 16: 58
      +3
      Well, what guided him - this is a question for him. For me - instead of inventing nicknames, it is better to engage in combat training of ships.
    2. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 13 May 2018 19: 06
      +1
      Quote: Monarchist
      Indeed, it was not from a hangover that he invented such nicknames


      "Someone is drinking and someone is pricking!" :)

      Just at the beginning of the 20th century, doctors very actively recommended opium as a relaxing and sedative. Well, they sold themselves, of course.
  29. Monarchist
    Monarchist 13 May 2018 14: 34
    +3
    Quote: sevtrash
    Politics above all, history can and should be sacrificed to it. The legend of 28 Panfilov’s is also a myth. At the same time, Panfilov himself and his 316th division made a significant contribution to the defense of Moscow, but remained as if in the shadow of a myth.
    The battle of Thermopylae was essentially a loss to the Greeks because of betrayal, the withdrawal of part of the troops because of fear of encirclement, but, probably, this also remained in the shadow of 300 Spartans.

    I agree with you: history and myths are closely intertwined. Regarding Thermopylae, somewhere I read that the "allies" of the Spartans received a good coin and left. Figs it was so anyway. But if we say Thermopylae we remember the Spartans
  30. Usher
    Usher 13 May 2018 14: 39
    0
    I didn’t understand anything, one thing, then another. Either PR, not PR.
  31. Monarchist
    Monarchist 13 May 2018 14: 51
    +2
    Quote: Cannonball
    “Varangian” is an American of pure blood, “Aurora” is Russian.
    In fact, the prototype for both cruisers was the English cruiser HMS Talbot (built in 1895) and the French armored cruiser D'Entrecasteaux (built in 1896). More precisely, these prototypes were chosen for cruisers of the Diana type, and for the Varangian, the prototype became cruisers of the Diana type with numerous changes to the project.
    Yes, the "Varangian" was built in Philadelphia. But it was built according to the Russian order, according to the Russian project. Equipment for the construction and equipment of the ship for the most part came from firms located in the United States. At the same time, the main caliber guns were delivered from Obukhovsky, and torpedo tubes from the St. Petersburg Metal Works. In England, anchors, anchor chains and anti-torpedo nets were ordered.
    Aurora also had a lot of foreign-made equipment, so there is no need to talk about the "purity" of American or Russian blood.

    Thanks for clarification, I didn’t know about such details
    1. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 14 May 2018 10: 12
      +3
      So on all ships, wherever they were built, at least in Denmark, at least in France, the armament was supplied by the Naval Ministry.
  32. sib.ataman
    sib.ataman 13 May 2018 15: 18
    +18
    In vain, the authors ran into the "Varyag"! His feat, alone with a gunboat against the Japanese squadron in response to a demand for surrender, was first appreciated by foreign sailors and the media, who told the world about his feat! We can say that at first they learned about his heroism in Russia from the foreign press, and then from his command, this is the first!
    In general, it would be very strange if the world media called the crew and its actions heroic, and Roossia in response, no, they somehow strangely drowned the ship! They are not heroes! How humanly it would be!
    The crew’s act was in the spirit of A. Matrosov, V. Talalikhin, 28 Panfilov’s and other our heroes! We will not talk about various inconsistencies and other moments that someone might not like, but these heroes fulfilled their duty to the end! And the feats were accomplished on the battlefield, and not in the cabinet silence, fidgeting on the soft sofa! This is the second!
    The fact that the crew did not die in battle all, and the ship did not die, does not mean someone’s cowardice or inability to fight, but, on the contrary, about the skill, heroism and composure of the crew, and about the humanity of the commander who was not going to become famous, filling up the field battle corpses of subordinates! This is the third!
    And fourthly! First you had to read about the bay in Chemulpo, its depths and width, before you suspect the crew of treason. In the bay, along its entire length, it is so deep that it is problematic to drown a simple scow! And then the cruiser of the 1st rank! Nevertheless, they chose the deepest place! The bottom of the bay was heavily silted up (which was taken into account by the cruiser’s command), therefore the cruiser was pretty firmly stuck into the bottom during flooding. And in the usual way, the Japanese failed to lift the cruiser the first time! For several months, the Japanese washed it with special water cannons from the sludge, one must pay tribute to their persistence! For a while, the "Varangian" was a training ship with the Japanese, on which Japanese sailors and a cadet were taught courage, heroism and fidelity to duty to the Emperor! What did they later successfully demonstrate in II M. Even the enemy appreciated the feat of the cruiser and crew! And if it was not a feat, then what would the Japanese teach it to their sailors? How to change the homeland?
    And the last, the “Varangian” returned to Chemulpo, because he could not escape from the blocked international port, which was (I’m paying attention!), Under the protection of the leading states, where the Japanese could not meddle, and the crew, or rather the commander, had little choice: surrender, or intern! The commander chose the third! Flood the cruiser! To explode so that it would be torn to pieces at shallow depths, and not be damaged by the nearby foreign ships, was also impossible! That's why they did what they did!
    Dear authors! Before you cast a shadow on the fence, you need to carefully study all the circumstances! A. Matrosov, too, completed his feat of seconds! A hero will remain for centuries! Such is the price of the feat of self-sacrifice!
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 13 May 2018 15: 47
      +1
      Quote: sib.ataman
      To explode so that it would be torn to pieces at shallow depths, and not be damaged by the nearby foreign ships, was also impossible!

      But the "Korean" was blown up ... And no one died of fear
      1. BAI
        BAI 13 May 2018 17: 04
        +4
        sib.ataman Today, 15:18
        And fourthly! First you had to read about the bay in Chemulpo, its depths and width, before you suspect the crew of treason. In the bay, along its entire length, it is so deep that it is problematic to drown a simple scow! And then the cruiser of the 1st rank!

        Absolutely, it’s not in the fairway to drown it.

        But the "Korean" was blown up ... And no one died of fear

        Did he have kingstones? The "Guardian" was not.
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 13 May 2018 19: 09
          +3
          It seems that after the undermining of the “Korean”, the commanders of the hospitals protested. Since the salvation of the crew from captivity depended not least on them, Rudnev did not aggravate.
          Did he have kingstones? The "Guardian" was not.

          Not understood...
          1. BAI
            BAI 13 May 2018 20: 19
            +1
            Not understood...

            Not all ships of the Russo-Japanese War had kingstones. For example, the destroyer Steregushchiy did not have them.
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 14 May 2018 10: 07
              +1
              Hmm ... not ready to argue, but somehow doubtful.
            2. Kibb
              Kibb 14 May 2018 10: 35
              +3
              The cruisers were, the destroyers weren’t. There were simply no kingstones on the destroyers of the time of the REV; there were flooding valves
              1. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 15 May 2018 14: 43
                +2
                Yes, colleague, I searched. At least on the "falcons" Arthur’s building was definitely not there. But this is still strange.
                1. TermNachTer
                  TermNachTer 15 May 2018 22: 52
                  +2
                  Gentlemen, kingston - this is the valve, it just has a slightly different design than the usual one.
                  1. Senior seaman
                    Senior seaman 16 May 2018 11: 49
                    0
                    They have already quoted here, but ...
                    However, long before the unveiling of the monument in the historical part of the Moscow State School of Art, they came to the conclusion that the story of the flooding of the ship by two unknown sailors is a fiction. The stories of the Sentinels sailors returning from captivity were contradictory; moreover, according to the words of the driver of the 2 article V.Novikov, it turned out that he himself had opened the kingstones in the engine room (in fact, Kingston flooding in the engine room "falcons" was not!)

                    http://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/MK/2004_02/0
                    5.htm
                  2. Kibb
                    Kibb 16 May 2018 13: 24
                    +1
                    Kingston doesn’t have a valve - you don’t have to directly accept the translation. There’s just 250 tons and a full-fledged cruising Kingston, it’s just not fit, and there isn’t much difference - the Japanese were put in a state of disrepair much earlier than he sank
      2. Cannonball
        Cannonball 13 May 2018 23: 36
        +2
        However, the pieces from the blown up “Korean” fell in the immediate vicinity of the hospitals, which inspired them with a certain alarm in case of the explosion of the “Varyag”. Blast Rudnev “Varyag”, damage the hospitals with the explosion and fragments - there would be no talk of any help to the crews of the blown up ships. And instead of returning to their homeland, the surviving sailors from the "Varangian" and "Korean" would expect a Japanese captivity.
  33. Monarchist
    Monarchist 13 May 2018 15: 58
    +4
    Quote: Banshee
    Where is slop? About the "heroic death of" Varyag "or something? You, gentlemen, master the second button slowly. And head at the same time. And for one-button and single-cell I explain on behalf of the authors: the article is not against" Varyag ", but for Aurora.
    But for this purpose it was necessary to read it at least line by line.

    Roman, I carefully read the article and PARTLY agree: 1) you need to KNOW the story, which means reading and not only "Vika". 2). NOW we have a different opinion on the “epoch-making shot”, although even before the perestroika, there was a joke: “what is the most powerful ship in the world?”, But I strongly disagree about “send to the needles”: “Aurora” with its “biography” deserved to be preserved, and as far as I know: the current authorities decided that this ship should be a monument of historical eras. 3) about the "Varyag": the Japanese picked up all the Russian ships that they could, but knocked down the old names from all the ships, and “Varyag” retained the former name on the stern, but what prevented them from removing it? I can’t memorize it as a memory, but the Japanese cadets always cited the bravery of “Varyag” as an example.
    Another small detail: after the flooding of the Varyag, Koreans somewhere found the so-called “boat flag” from the cruiser and cherished it for more than 100 years and recently returned it to Russia. (This was on TV) Perhaps Nikolay2 told them to keep this flag, maybe the japs ​​paid? As I recall, Shirokorad has an article about Varyag, and the only thing he didn’t do was not to say: how much the Japanese paid for Vaiyag to Rudnev
    1. BAI
      BAI 13 May 2018 17: 08
      +6
      2010 year:
      In the Russian embassy in Seoul, in the presence of Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, a ceremony was held to hand over the legendary cruiser Varyag to the Russian side of the South Korean city of Inchon Gyuys (naval flag).


  34. sib.ataman
    sib.ataman 13 May 2018 16: 07
    +11
    Quote: Rurikovich
    Quote: sib.ataman
    To explode so that it would be torn to pieces at shallow depths, and not be damaged by the nearby foreign ships, was also impossible!

    But the "Korean" was blown up ... And no one died of fear


    So the Korean is not a Varangian! Both in size and in booking! The power of the explosion on the Varangian, for its successful destruction, had to be several times greater than the power of the explosion on the Korean! The Varangian command perfectly understood this, unlike you!
    You Belarusian guerrillas do not care what to blow up! Experienced craftsmen! But actually, it’s necessary to read the literature!
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 13 May 2018 16: 34
      +2
      Quote: sib.ataman
      You Belarusian guerrillas do not care what to blow

      "Thanks for the compliment request
      Quote: sib.ataman
      So the Korean is not a Varangian!

      It is not necessary to explode so that the chips fly. Just a couple of places below the waterline for a more solid destruction of the hull. This would already create enormous problems in a hypothetical recovery. And so they actually lifted it up on a silver platter largely thanks to the efforts of the Talbot commander
      Quote: sib.ataman
      But actually, it’s necessary to read the literature!

      Literature, literature, strife, wise guy. Brains sometimes need to be included to understand the results of acts. wink
      1. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse 13 May 2018 19: 10
        +3
        Quote: Rurikovich
        It is not necessary to explode so that the chips fly.

        Right Enough to blow up the car. By drafts into cylinders, like the British in Sevastopol in 1921 with Russian armadillos ..
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 22 May 2018 12: 09
        0
        Quote: Rurikovich
        It is not necessary to explode so that the chips fly. Just a couple of places below the waterline for a more solid destruction of the hull.

        EMNIP, the Japanese, after examining the ships blown up in Port Arthur, noted that the best option for the Russians and the worst for the Japanese would be to have the keel of the ship interrupted by explosions in several places. For the skin can still be patched up to raise the ship. But with a broken keel, the ships would have to be cut and raised in parts.
  35. another RUSICH
    another RUSICH 13 May 2018 16: 24
    +2
    Quote: Rurikovich
    from and brainwash, which was preferable at that time. break through with a known slow-moving partner, or without him. The advantage was the use of two obsolete 203mm 35 caliber guns firing smoke powder or not.

    Are you raving, sir?

    The Varangian could not leave the Korean, and could not stay in the Port, because he was politely made aware of his unwanted presence there.
    The Korean’s exit along with the Varangian to the battle was purely symbolic, because there was no sense from the Korean because of the insufficient range of his guns, and the inability to inflict any damage on Japanese ships
    Therefore, the Korean actually, although he was present, did not physically participate in the battle, although he received damage
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 13 May 2018 17: 00
      +1
      Quote: another RUSICH
      The Korean’s exit along with the Varangian to the battle was purely symbolic, because there was no sense from the Korean because of the insufficient range of his guns, and the inability to inflict any damage on Japanese ships

      So I know it without you. But the thought did not attend that the “Korean” was an anchor on the feet of the “Varyag”? Going into battle according to a deliberately losing option is not a sign of shortsightedness. Strange breakthrough speed - 9-10 knots. Wasn’t it better to leave the “Korean” to defend the “Sungari”, or to prevent the landing (the war go, not a walk)
      as well
      Quote: another RUSICH
      The Korean actually, although he was present, did not physically participate in the battle, although he received damage

      the maximum that they squeezed out of the situation - a priori forced the “Varangian” to fight at the speed of the “Korean”. Have “Varyag” at least the speed that everyone is talking about (real, like) at 16-18 knots, the time of fire contact is already getting shorter, it’s more difficult for the enemy to aim.
      And just like on a holiday - they came out slowly, the enemy pulnul, 10 minutes later they turned back and ran, receiving a dozen more shells in the stern.
      I repeat, I do not reject the fact of going out against a superior opponent and consider it heroic, but ... there are too many questions about the possibilities of using ships request
      1. DimerVladimer
        DimerVladimer 16 May 2018 14: 06
        +3
        Quote: Rurikovich
        So I know it without you. But the thought did not attend that the “Korean” was an anchor on the feet of the “Varyag”? Going into battle according to a deliberately losing option is not a sign of shortsightedness. Strange breakthrough speed - 9-10 knots. Wasn’t it better to leave the “Korean” to defend the “Sungari”, or to prevent the landing (the war go, not a walk)


        Here it must be understood that the “entrusted” ship is an order to provide protection.
        Therefore, throwing a “Korean” is a crime, a violation of the order.
        A dishonorable act that the officer could not go to.
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 16 May 2018 16: 43
          +2
          Well, if there was a chance to save the newest cruiser of the first rank, having sacrificed an obsolete gunboat, then obviously he should have gone. The trouble is that there was no chance.
    2. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 13 May 2018 19: 14
      +5
      The Korean’s exit along with the Varangian to the battle was purely symbolic, because there was no sense from the Korean because of the insufficient range of his guns, and the inability to inflict any damage on Japanese ships

      Come on! But on the “Rurik” (where there were the same eight-inches) they did not know this, and drove it into the Iwate casemate under Ulsan, so it seemed to little.
      In general, the Korean guns were the only ones who, at least theoretically, could inflict damage on the Asama
      Therefore, the Korean actually, although he was present, did not physically participate in the battle, although it got damaged

      According to Belyaev's report, there were no hits in the “Korean”.
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 13 May 2018 21: 37
        +3
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        But on the “Rurik” (where there were the same eight-inches) they did not know this, and drove it into the Iwate casemate under Ulsan, so it seemed to little.

        I agree. On the “Rurik” were the same 203 mm guns as on the “Korean” yes Another thing is that the very course of the battle and the placement of the “Korean” behind the “Varangian” did not allow the proper use of their guns. “Rurik” had such an opportunity completely. All the same, the combat stability of the gunboat in a battle with a cruiser is much less than that of a cruiser with a cruiser. hi
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 14 May 2018 10: 11
          +2
          Sorry, but I didn’t quite understand your point. What is wrong with the location of the guns designed to develop maximum nasal fire?
          I do not know what Rudnev was planning, but for example. “Varangian” distracts fire on himself (and it happened) and gives time to “Korean” to come up ...
          By the way, the Japanese, in addition to Asama, shot no better than the Russians, and not a single shell hit the Korean.
          1. Rurikovich
            Rurikovich 16 May 2018 20: 28
            0
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            Sorry, but I didn’t quite understand your point. What is wrong with the location of the guns designed to develop maximum nasal fire?

            You said that the “Korean” guns are identical to the “Rurik” guns, so you got the enemy’s combat station (40-45 cabin). I agreed with that
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            I do not know what Rudnev was planning, but for example. “Varangian” distracts fire on himself (and it happened) and gives time to “Korean” to come up ...

            I also don’t know what Rudnev was counting on, but if you take a slow-moving gunboat with you in the hope of its tools, you need to make sure that she can use them. Rudnev did not.
            Two. Okay, the Korean didn’t hit the Japanese. But the Japanese didn’t hit the Korean either. A sought? So, “Korean” was in such a position that the Japanese simply didn't give a damn about him.
            Well, suppose that "The Korean went to the Japanese in the hope of causing damage to his artillery and the Japanese, however briefly, concentrated their fire on the ship. The question is how many shells are needed to take out a 66-meter 1300-ton unarmored ship ??? after all, he said that in terms of assistance in that battle, the gunboat was practically zero, especially in the battle with cruisers. First you need to understand what a gunboat is and what it is for, to draw conclusions about the hypothetical capabilities of ships of this class in a memorable battle , only without any heroes.
            Well, the "Varangian" distracted the enemy, and the "Korean" took advantage of this ????
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 17 May 2018 11: 46
              +1
              Two. Okay, the Korean didn’t hit the Japanese. But the Japanese didn’t hit the Korean either. A sought? So, “Korean” was in such a position that the Japanese simply didn't give a damn about him.

              Incorrect line of reasoning. “Varangian” didn’t make it to “Asama” either, but that doesn’t mean that this wasn’t in the plans of his commandants?
              So why didn’t the “Varangian” hit? Everything is simple. The head of the rangefinder station, the mimchan Count Nirod, died at the first hit of an enemy shell and did not have time to adjust the fire, and the commandants did not have enough experience. The first fight, plus many newcomers.
              Now the Japanese. The newest rangefinders Barra and Stroda were only on the Asam. And on the rest of the ships Uriu used goniometers. To determine the distance with their help, you need to know, say, the height of the mast. Knowing it, the angle is measured and the simplest problem is solved - to determine the length of the side of a right triangle. In principle, information on the length of the masts is not secret. She is in any reference to Jane. BUT ... Before the battle Belyaev ordered to cut down the staves, and an error crept into the calculations of the Japanese artillerymen. And since all five cruisers (except “Asama”) fired at the “Korean” and only interfered with each other's shooting, they couldn’t get there. Same: excitement, first fight. "Niitaka", for example, was generally in his first campaign.
              The question is how many shells are needed to remove the 66-meter 1300-ton unarmored ship from battle ???

              First, you need to get into this very unarmored small ship :))
              What the Japanese obviously failed.
              Now for the number of shells needed to drown the gunboats. Four years before the events described, our gunboats "Koreets", "Gilyak" and "Beaver" participated in a night battle with Taku coastal batteries. They then, together with English, French and German ships of a similar class carried these batteries nafig. 3 large-caliber projectile hit the Gilyak. Not dead. The German Iltis (a little less than 1000 tons of displacement) got 17 (seventeen !!!). Not dead.
              Did I answer your question?
              Of course, you can object that the Japs had more powerful German shells, but ... who knew about this before the war?
              1. Rurikovich
                Rurikovich 17 May 2018 18: 21
                0
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                Incorrect line of reasoning. “Varangian” didn’t make it to “Asama” either, but that doesn’t mean that this wasn’t in the plans of his commandants?

                So this is not far-sighted smile
                But only half of the patriots shout that the "Varangian" sent "Asam" to the docks for repairs, and you claim that you didn’t get wink will we continue to fight against myths?
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                So why didn’t the “Varangian” hit? Everything is simple. The head of the rangefinder station, the mimchan Count Nirod, died at the first hit of an enemy shell and did not have time to adjust the fire, and the commandants did not have enough experience. The first fight, plus many newcomers.

                Or maybe Rudnev ordered to turn after the death of Nirod, because he realized that not only casualties are possible during the breakthrough, but also (DO NOT BECOME THE LORD !!!) death.
                And even more so if the breakthrough is at a speed of 10-12 knots.
                Moral Do you know what ???? The results of the battle are known, because everything else is no longer important. I participate in polemics only in order to find out why a completely lost battle, actually due to the fault of one person (because of, in my opinion, wrong actions and assumptions) suddenly became a rock of heroism. I do not deny the heroism of the Russians. I’m just wondering why I got such a worthless result.
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                In German "Iltis" (a little less than 1000 tons of displacement) got 17 (seventeen !!!). Not dead.

                Now tell me, what caliber of shells were, what type, where did you hit?
                According to the Agamemnon EMNIP, in general, the stone core flew from the Turks during the Dardanelles operation in WWI.
                In general, the gunboats performed their immediate duty - actions against the shore to support their ground forces. And imagine yourself, for the "Korean" nose to shore, that would fire from the KG to the maximum and at the same time present the smallest target is much more comfortable than in the open sea against a faster, stronger and more numerous enemy.
                Therefore, I personally think that tactically the “breakthrough” version of Rudnev was initially a losing one. Because he had to go out beautifully, get a couple of shells and come in beautifully. ALL! The rest is all - a jolt of water in a mortar. hi
                1. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 18 May 2018 09: 21
                  0
                  So this is not far-sighted

                  Ghm ... and who wrote this?
                  but the Japanese didn’t hit the “Korean” either. A sought?

                  -------------------------------------------
                  Or maybe Rudnev ordered to turn after the death of Nirod, because he realized that not only casualties are possible during the breakthrough, but also (DO NOT BECOME THE LORD !!!) death.

                  As if ... (EMNIP of course) Niroda killed the first hit, and the shooting began in 11-45. A Turned "Varangian" in 12-20. That is, in your interpretation, Rudnev was frightened so that for half an hour he thought what to do :)))
                  Do you know the moral?

                  I know, "on the couch we are all brave and strategists" :))
                  why a completely lost battle, actually due to one person’s fault (due to, in my opinion, wrong actions and assumptions) suddenly became a rock of heroism.

                  1) key phrase: "your way"
                  2) Whom did Rurik defeat under Ulsan?
                  3) Who did we defeat in the Brest Fortress?
                  Now tell me what caliber the shells were, what type, where they hit. Now tell me what caliber the shells were, what type where they hit?

                  I can’t say for sure in Iltis, but there is a scheme

                  And in “Gilyak” received at least one six-inch and one eight-inch hit.
                  In general, the gunboats performed their immediate duty - actions against the shore to support their ground forces.

                  In other words, if the guns are on the shore, then the question
                  The question is how many shells are needed to remove the 66-meter 1300-ton unarmored ship from battle ???

                  Don't you have it? But if the same guns on the ship, then all ... amba!
                  And imagine yourself, for the "Korean" nose to the shore, that would fire from the KG to the maximum and at the same time present the smallest target is much more comfortable than in the open sea against a faster, stronger and more numerous enemy.

                  Sorry, I did not understand. Do you seriously believe that the “Korean” was going to break through sideways?
                  I want to disappoint you, it was with his nose that he made a breakthrough and imagined, as you put it, "the smallest goal."
                  Therefore, I personally think that tactically the “breakthrough” version of Rudnev was initially a losing one.

                  Yes, no question, suggest yours. Only without afterthought and ernism.
                  Because he had to go out beautifully, get a couple of shells and come in beautifully. EVERYTHING!

                  Indeed, what garbage. We do this every day, right? Shell less, shell more ...
              2. Rurikovich
                Rurikovich 17 May 2018 21: 18
                0
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                Did I answer your question?

                I propose an alternative option - we’ll wait for Andrei’s cycle from Chelyabinsk about “Varyag” (if he is not too lazy smile and time will allow), and there on the basis of a possibly fresh look we will determine where the flies are, and where the cutlets hi
                1. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 18 May 2018 09: 25
                  0
                  Oh naturlih ,, will yield! drinks

                  But there is still DonKis.
              3. Saxahorse
                Saxahorse 19 May 2018 01: 23
                0
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                Of course, you can object that the Japs had more powerful German shells, but ... who knew about this before the war?

                You are probably talking about the war with China? There are rumors that the Chinese at that time often shot cores. Hit 17 cores in the hull of a ship of 1000 tons somehow survive. :)
                1. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 11 June 2018 19: 25
                  0

                  Can you tell me which guns fired the "cores"?
                  If that I have schemes of all forts.
                  1. Saxahorse
                    Saxahorse 13 June 2018 23: 37
                    0
                    Maybe even that. :)

                    There is also information that, for example, on the Dingyuan in the ammunition there were no more than a dozen high-explosive shells, the remaining almost 200 pieces of armor-piercing blanks. They are cheaper than.
                    1. Senior seaman
                      Senior seaman 14 June 2018 11: 07
                      0
                      In general, it will become from the Germans :))) They and for their armadillos armored battles were completely without explosives, and land mines ... with 2kg wassat But this is for the Civil Code, for the UK they are more or less decent.
                      In addition, there were quite a few Armstrong guns in Taku.
      2. Cannonball
        Cannonball 14 May 2018 20: 27
        +2
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        According to Belyaev's report, there were no hits in the “Korean”.

        A little bit of shrapnel. Quote from the logbook "Korean"
        The battle was at a distance of 45 cable and our shells did not reach the enemy, his shells, except for 3-4 few shortfalls, were flights. Some of them exploded near the boat and broke a ram section slightly above the waterline with a fragment.

        The Japanese squadron followed us, leaving Yo-dol-mi to Nu and on the parallel of this last island stopped and continued to shower us with heavy and continuous fire until 12h 45m when we approached the first vessels on the roadstead.

        1h “Varangian” anchored at the English cruiser “Talbot” and continued to extinguish the fire. We anchored in 4 cables from So-Wolmi, remaining fully operational.
        Michman Boysman

        During the battle, it was noticed that one of the shells had a bridge down and a fire on the Asama.
        Michman Birilev
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 15 May 2018 14: 46
          +2
          It seems that the Japanese in the reports also “distinguished themselves” and told of the numerous hits in the “Korean” (hits, not covers, these are two different things). But in this case, Belyaev’s report has more faith
      3. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 16 May 2018 13: 21
        +2
        Unless theoretically. Firing range, however. The Japanese simply would not have come up to such a distance. The difference in speed allowed them to choose the best distance for them.
    3. Cannonball
      Cannonball 13 May 2018 20: 18
      +1
      there wasn’t any Korean due to the insufficient range of his guns
      Not quite the right information. 8 “Koreans” guns had a maximum firing range of just over 49 cables, and the battle started when there were 47 cables to the Japanese and the distance only decreased within half an hour. As for the possible damage if the “Korean” 8 hit a shell, it could become very significant even for armored cruisers.
      In principle, our ships had a chance for a breakthrough. If it weren’t for the steering wheel damage at the Varyag.
      1. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 13 May 2018 21: 44
        +4
        I want to upset you comrade. There was no chance. In the open sea - “Varyag” - 16 knots, well, for a short time 20, “Korean” generally about 13 knots. 13,5 is a measured mile. And in the process of operation - fouling of the hull, shattered thrust bearings, etc. Then, as the Japanese have all the ships at least 17 knots, the Asama and Takasagi are more than 20. There was no chance. And the officers of the "Varyag" understood this perfectly.
        1. Cannonball
          Cannonball 13 May 2018 23: 25
          +1
          Another fact is that the Korean has a draft of 3,5 m, the Varyag has a draft of 5,94 m.
          The Japanese: Asama - 7,42 meters, Naniva - 6,4 m, Takachiho - 6,4 m, Niitaka - 4,92 m, Akashi - 4,8 m, Chiyoda "- 4,27 m, destroyers -1,45 m.

          If you read the history of the battle, the Japanese practically did not fire at the "Korean", leaving it "for a snack." “Korean” could well take advantage of this circumstance and get a chance to try to get away in shallow water.

          Now about speed. In the open sea, only Asama and Chioda could partially compete with the Varangian in speed. At the same time, in terms of armaments, the “Varangian” seriously lost the “Asame”, but was head and shoulders stronger than the “Chioda”. So there were chances.
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 14 May 2018 00: 49
            +2
            Comrade, read Melnikov's "Cruiser Varyag". The condition of the boilers is disgusting. For a very short time, 20 knots, the normal speed is 16. The Korean would have gone far with its 13 knots. ? To Port Arthur?
        2. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 14 May 2018 10: 14
          +4
          What else is Takasagi? if you're talking about Tacosago, then he wasn’t there. "Niitaka" with "Asama" in principle 20 gave. On the penultimate trials before the war (and there were five in all), the “Varangian” also held 20, but how long could he do this?
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 15 May 2018 13: 50
            +3
            I don’t remember exactly, but there was a Japanese cruiser, which theoretically could give 22,5 knots, in case the Varyag could break into the sea, but this is purely theoretical. I don’t know what kind of tests you are talking about, but Melnikov writes that there are 16 bonds. it was a real operational speed.
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 15 May 2018 14: 58
              +2
              Well, Asama had just been overhauled and Chioda. The last one was completely leveled by the cars and it seems that they brought the course to 21,5 (which I personally doubt)
              I don’t know what kind of tests you are talking about, but Melnikov writes that 16 is bound. it was a real operational speed.

              Read here: http: //cruiserx.net/melnikov/m158_167.htm
              Happy 9 OctoberHaving finished assembling the right car, they tested both cars at moorings and spent the next day at sea in trials. As soon as they returned to the raid, we asked about the test results for the report to the governor from the observation post of Golden Mountain on a semaphore. They answered that the machines worked properly and well, they tested at speeds up to 110 rpm corresponding to 16 nodes. In fact, it was not so smooth. As it appears from the logbook, by the evening it was necessary to reduce the speed due to heating of the stern head bearing of the CVP of the left machine. Apparently therefore, following the instructions of the governor to continue the progressive tests without haste, a new exit was delayed for a week.
              16 October, reporting to the Golden Mountain that the gunboat Sivuch remains the oldest in the raid, the cruiser again anchored. As before, on board were the chief mechanical engineer of the port V.N. Shilov, port engineer, 16 locksmiths and 6 Chinese workers. For nearly 12 hours, the cruiser coastal waters of Port Arthur plowed in all directions, either slowing down, then adding speed and counting 157 miles in the lag. At noon, the rotational speed was brought to 130 rpm, but the vapor pressure dropped from 15,8 atm to 12 atm. Having put into operation the remaining eight boilers, they increased the pressure to 14 — 15 atm and gradually increased the rotation speed to 140 rpm, then after an hour they reduced it to 125 rpm, and by the end of the test they were again brought to 140 rpm
              16 October, reporting to the Golden Mountain that the gunboat Sivuch remains the oldest in the raid, the cruiser again anchored. As before, on board were the chief mechanical engineer of the port V.N. Shilov, port engineer, 16 locksmiths and 6 Chinese workers. For nearly 12 hours, the cruiser coastal waters of Port Arthur plowed in all directions, either slowing down, then adding speed and counting 157 miles in the lag. At noon, the rotational speed was brought to 130 rpm, but the vapor pressure dropped from 15,8 atm to 12 atm. Having put into operation the remaining eight boilers, they increased the pressure to 14 — 15 atm and gradually increased the rotation speed to 140 rpm, then after an hour they reduced it to 125 rpm, and by the end of the test they were again brought to 140 rpm
              The following tests were carried out 19 October at a speed of 13 — 17 knots and during the next run, only as spectators watched the squadron’s exercises,
              The tests continued. Having received from the port workshops the head bearing of the right machine, having received coal and water from the barges, 12 November "Varangian" again went to sea to run in bearings at low speed. On trial 15 November there were members of a special commission established to test the mechanisms and the inspection of boilers on the squadron ships: the flagship mechanical engineer A. A. Lukyanov (chairman), port mechanical engineer V. N. Shilov and a group of mechanics from the squadron ships. The tests lasted three hours. The rotational speed from 80 rpm was brought to 130, but then reduced to 50 - the bearings warmed up again. Under the steam there were 29 boilers at pressures from 14 to 15,8 atm.

              1. TermNachTer
                TermNachTer 15 May 2018 15: 08
                +2
                It says 13 to 17 knots. And the question is how much he could withstand these 17 knots. From Chemulpo to Port Arthur is not a "couple of hours go." And would stokers endure? The question is not idle
                1. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 15 May 2018 21: 45
                  +2
                  Read carefully about the October 16 test.
                  The tests went on for 12 hours, accelerated to 140 rpm \ min. Estimated, due to congestion, the speed was around 20,5 nodes. (In the acceptance tests at 149 rpm, the speed was more than 23 knots.)
                  But we must understand that these are the only tests when the machines worked more or less normally. On November 12 the bearings were warming again.
              2. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 15 May 2018 15: 25
                +1
                Damn, one day I copied two times. litter!
                1. TermNachTer
                  TermNachTer 15 May 2018 22: 54
                  +2
                  But again, we conclude that even if they had “squeezed” 20 knots, it would not be for long.
      2. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 16 May 2018 13: 22
        +1
        And what is the range of shells at the maximum distance?
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 18 May 2018 09: 28
          +1
          Dear colleague, I don’t remember exactly. But sclerosis strongly suggests that the scattering ellipse at the six-inch Kane gun, on the 45 cable, is something of the order of 200-250 meters. For comparison, the length of the "Varyag" is approx. 130 m.
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 18 May 2018 22: 32
            0
            A barrel wear. How many year-olds were “Korean” at that moment? And the fire control system, or rather its absence. As far as I remember, the "Korean" even had a rangefinder. The distance to the enemy was measured with a Lyuzhol - Myakishev micrometer.
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 19 May 2018 11: 30
              +1
              A barrel wear. How many year-olds were “Korean” at that moment?

              There is no mention that the Korean guns had problems with this. Let's say about Beaver there is such information.
              As far as I remember, the "Korean" even had a rangefinder. The distance to the enemy was measured with a Lyuzhol - Myakishev micrometer.

              That's right. Just like on the Varyag and most cruisers of the Uriu squadron. In general, the ships of the Port Arthur squadron had only ten or eleven rangefinders. Then you better ask Valentin Maltsev. He can even name their brands :)))
              But there is such a moment. What I wrote about the dispersion ellipse is true (essno, if I didn’t mess up anything, because from memory) for the 6 "Kane. There weren’t any like that on the Korean. There were 2x8" 35 caliber guns and 1 x 6 "35 Brink’s guns.
              Theoretically, 8 has a higher accuracy, but I can’t compare Brink with Kane, weapons of different generations. However, before the war no one was going to fight at 45 kbt. Our training was maximum at 25-30 and that was a lot. For example, the Angles trained at 7 kbt. accuracy of this distance was quite acceptable.
              1. TermNachTer
                TermNachTer 19 May 2018 16: 54
                +2
                At that time, there was only one type of rangefinder "Barr and Strood" - four-foot, that of the Russians, that of the Japanese. The British firm offered the six-foot Ministry of the Sea, but they refused it because of the high cost.
  36. sib.ataman
    sib.ataman 13 May 2018 16: 34
    +5
    Quote: Monarchist
    Quote: Banshee
    Where is slop? About the "heroic death of" Varyag "or something? You, gentlemen, master the second button slowly. And head at the same time. And for one-button and single-cell I explain on behalf of the authors: the article is not against" Varyag ", but for Aurora.
    But for this purpose it was necessary to read it at least line by line.

    Roman, I carefully read the article and PARTLY agree: 1) you need to KNOW the story, which means reading and not only "Vika". 2). NOW we have a different opinion on the “epoch-making shot”, although even before the perestroika, there was a joke: “what is the most powerful ship in the world?”, But I strongly disagree about “send to the needles”: “Aurora” with its “biography” deserved to be preserved, and as far as I know: the current authorities decided that this ship should be a monument of historical eras. 3) about the "Varyag": the Japanese picked up all the Russian ships that they could, but knocked down the old names from all the ships, and “Varyag” retained the former name on the stern, but what prevented them from removing it? I can’t memorize it as a memory, but the Japanese cadets always cited the bravery of “Varyag” as an example.
    Another small detail: after the flooding of the Varyag, Koreans somewhere found the so-called “boat flag” from the cruiser and cherished it for more than 100 years and recently returned it to Russia. (This was on TV) Perhaps Nikolay2 told them to keep this flag, maybe the japs ​​paid? As I recall, Shirokorad has an article about Varyag, and the only thing he didn’t do was not to say: how much the Japanese paid for Vaiyag to Rudnev


    Regarding Shirokorad, I respect him as a military historian, who sat in the military archives for quite a bit (from his own words), but nothing human is alien to a military historian either! Moreover, I personally know some of them (not Shirokorad), and I perfectly understand their souls, high impulses, sometimes going beyond the limits of the rational! Well, what can I do? Well, any person wants to be brilliant at least in some way! To be remembered for centuries! We are all human, we are all human! In principle, this is normal! Without a certain amount of vanity, anyone is just a gray person!
    And as regards the actions of the commander, such as he is right-wrong there, before giving any assessment, it is advisable to command yourself at least a platoon, at least a couple of years to understand the difference between responsibility and permissiveness.
  37. sib.ataman
    sib.ataman 13 May 2018 16: 52
    +1
    Quote: Rurikovich
    Quote: sib.ataman
    You Belarusian guerrillas do not care what to blow

    "Thanks for the compliment request
    Quote: sib.ataman
    So the Korean is not a Varangian!

    It is not necessary to explode so that the chips fly. Just a couple of places below the waterline for a more solid destruction of the hull. This would already create enormous problems in a hypothetical recovery. And so they actually lifted it up on a silver platter largely thanks to the efforts of the Talbot commander
    Quote: sib.ataman
    But actually, it’s necessary to read the literature!

    Literature, literature, strife, wise guy. Brains sometimes need to be included to understand the results of acts. wink


    Clever people are not born, clever become! And the book in this business is the first little worshiper! This is commonplace! A source book of knowledge, the classic of world literature used to say, who once passed his universities himself, someone A. M. Gorky! And in order to turn on the brains, you do not have to drag the head off on your shoulders, but accumulate at the beginning, at least, a minimal amount of knowledge, preferably from various sources, from which you can later push yourself! In general, this is called comparative analysis, the main search tool in any field!
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 13 May 2018 17: 06
      +2
      Quote: sib.ataman
      And in order to turn on the brains, you do not have to drag the head off on your shoulders, but accumulate at the beginning, at least, a minimal amount of knowledge, preferably from various sources, from which you can later push yourself! In general, this is called comparative analysis, the main search tool in any field!

      "Sum" should be written like this - "sum" hi But just reading the literature on any problem, it should be borne in mind that different people may have different conclusions from what they read, which may randomly differ from the deep-rooted opinion.
      And so with you
      Quote: sib.ataman
      Clever people are not born, clever become! And the book in this matter is the first worshiper

      agree yes
      1. sib.ataman
        sib.ataman 13 May 2018 17: 54
        +3
        I summarize on my knee on a smartphone! A comparative analysis is carried out for this purpose so that the views do not stagnate, but keep up to date!
  38. Looking for
    Looking for 13 May 2018 17: 03
    +3
    But what if a ship set on the ground turns into a fortress? I hear this nonsense for the first time. They put it on board for the simple reason that it was a more accurate artillery system when put on the ground. And it was not necessary to keep the survivability division.
    1. sib.ataman
      sib.ataman 13 May 2018 19: 28
      +1
      Sir! Sheathe the saber! The authors used a metaphor. Only! Russian language, do you understand ...
  39. another RUSICH
    another RUSICH 13 May 2018 17: 06
    +5
    Quote: Nehist
    The Varangian could be taken to the depths as had been done to the Korean, and if one hadn’t already detonated so to flood, than would complicate the rise of the Japanese. Well, the fact that the Rudnev naval officer corps despised this well-known fact. On the shields, this is for MTK RIF and not for the Americans

    One more...
    The Varangian certainly needed to break through to the Mariana Trench and jump into the blue hole, but the depths of Chemulpo did not foresee this, alas and ah.
  40. another RUSICH
    another RUSICH 13 May 2018 17: 18
    +5
    Quote: Rurikovich
    But the thought did not attend that the “Korean” was an anchor on the feet of the “Varyag”? Going into battle according to a deliberately losing option is not a sign of shortsightedness.

    Do you really think that Rudnev and the Korean officers were so stupid as to not understand the futility of the battle? Do you also think that Sailors was a complete downfall on the bunker bunker, so as not to understand the consequences of this step ?!
    The Varangians and the Koreans went to their deaths, and all the foreign ship and ship ships remaining in the bay who saluted the heroes understood this!
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 13 May 2018 17: 36
      +1
      Quote: another RUSICH
      Do you really think that Rudnev and the Korean officers were so stupid as to not understand the futility of the battle?

      I think that they understood. The question is not that
      Quote: another RUSICH
      The Varangians and the Koreans went to their deaths, and all the foreign ship and ship ships remaining in the bay who saluted the heroes understood this!

      this alone is worthy of respect.
      And in HOW they used the opportunities, WHY they preferred the option with the slow-moving “Korean”, WHY refused the explosion. Questions arise not for ordinary sailors - they clearly understood that they were going to die, but for officers who, due to their shortsightedness or criminal negligence, did not get the maximum out of the situation (nonsense about damaged, drowned Japanese destroyers already tired of listening)
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 13 May 2018 19: 17
        +5
        Maybe because they had the same speed along a complex fairway?
  41. another RUSICH
    another RUSICH 13 May 2018 18: 02
    +4
    е
    Quote: Rurikovich
    WHY have preferred the option with the slow-moving “Korean”, WHY have refused the explosion. Questions arise not for simple sailors

    About 10 people here are quite accessible and reasonably explained both about speed and about the explosion, but you yourself got into complete nonsense with a sweep of originality of opinion.
    Not original. Moreover, showing yourself ... From a foolish side
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 13 May 2018 18: 17
      +1
      Quote: another RUSICH
      About 10 people here are quite accessible and reasonably explained about speed

      About a complex fairway and shallow depths? Not convincing. In battle, the Japanese cruisers operated at speeds up to 16-17 knots - and nothing bothered them.
      Quote: another RUSICH
      about the explosion

      well, guys, the captains of overseas ships didn’t stop blowing up the “Korean”, but they suddenly argued that the Varyag could be a threat to their ships. Not convincingly - no one bothered to take the cruiser further and blow it up.
      But stupid stubbornness in the heroization of the feat and unthinkable obstacles in the implementation of logical things are straining.
      Quote: another RUSICH
      Not original. Moreover, showing yourself ... From a foolish side

      I have the right to my opinion regarding this fight, just as you to mine. But I didn’t call you a fool in your desire to prove only the official version request
      1. sib.ataman
        sib.ataman 13 May 2018 18: 47
        +2
        A stubborn opinion worthy of a better application! I recognize the Bialaru school!
        1. Rurikovich
          Rurikovich 13 May 2018 21: 40
          +3
          Quote: sib.ataman
          Persistent opinion worthy of better application

          request No worse than the desire of "cheers-patriots" to prove their
          Quote: sib.ataman
          I recognize the Bialaru school!

          But this is disrespect to the neighbors. It does not paint, oh how it does not paint negative
  42. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 13 May 2018 18: 25
    +9
    The collision of the authors on Rudnev is in vain. He is quite
    behaved with dignity in a difficult situation.
    According to all the canons of naval battles of that time, take an unequal battle
    and then to flood the ship (really, where and how-will), was considered a bold act.
    If on the site of the Varangian Aurora everything would be repeated.
    1. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 13 May 2018 19: 12
      +1
      Quote: voyaka uh
      If it were Varyag Aurora, everything would be repeated

      No doubt. RIF commanders almost all were one to one .. With rare exceptions.
    2. Antares
      Antares 13 May 2018 22: 41
      +1
      Quote: voyaka uh
      behaved with dignity in a difficult situation.

      I would have shot the landing in his place (although I’m joking, the diplomat Rudnev wouldn’t aggravate with partners)
  43. Curious
    Curious 13 May 2018 18: 53
    +7
    Somehow the authors do not add up to literature. Or is the reader so slow-witted, talent not appreciated? Just like Edgar Allan Poe and Oscar Wilde, whose works were never appreciated during his lifetime.
    And now, they raised a question that has been discussed for exactly 112 years, but the people did not respond. But in 1906 a book was published by the General Staff of Major General E.I. Martynova FROM THE SORRY EXPERIENCE OF THE RUSSIAN - JAPANESE WAR.
    Those interested can find this book online. There, the tsarist general is completely unpleasant about the episode with Varyag and describes how he was evaluated in the army and navy.
    Probably, such difficult historical moments nevertheless require increased sensitivity and presence, nevertheless, of talent when touched.
    That's how the English are. They are Lord Cardigan for the heroic but catastrophic consequences of the attack of the British cavalry under the command of the lord in the position of the Russian army during the Battle of Balaclava on October 25, 1854 during the Crimean War did not try to kick. Although the House of Commons gathered for special meetings on this issue. Can it be with the British worth taking an example in approaching such moments?
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 May 2018 19: 18
      +1
      Quote: Curious
      There, the tsarist general is completely unpleasant about the episode with Varyag and describes how he was evaluated in the army and navy.

      I’m sorry, but how carefully did you read this book? :)))) I understand that you’re talking about the episode in the “Rewards” chapter, aren't you?
      1. Curious
        Curious 13 May 2018 19: 32
        +2
        Absolutely right.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 May 2018 19: 41
          +6
          Quote: Curious
          Absolutely right.

          Then you see that the general describes the inconsiderate not the episode with Varyag at all, but the fact that in his opinion his crew was awarded by George not according to the statute
          Such a massive reward in connection with the unheard-of honors rendered to the crews of these ships in Russia made a very unfavorable impression on the army. It was clear to everyone that if the commander of the ship needed some determination to meet the superior enemy, then from the rest of the ranks the mere presence on the ship (maybe involuntary) did not in itself constitute a merit worthy of being awarded the highest military order .

          The fact is that, as you know, the St. George Cross is VERY serious. And the question is not that the Varangian team committed something reprehensible, but that what it did did not justify rewarding it with St. George. That is, we are not talking about the fact that the officers despised Rudnev and his team for what they did wrong in battle, but simply that the tsar should not have been awarded them for this by George
          1. Curious
            Curious 13 May 2018 20: 05
            +4
            Do you have a modern edition, or an original? Now I can’t insert a page from the tablet, but in the original, in the paragraph before what you brought it says: "At the very beginning of the war, under the impression of the" feat "of the" Varyag "and" Korean "... and further on the award. Word" feat "by the author is quoted. You understand what this stylistic device means.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 May 2018 20: 14
              +5
              Quote: Curious
              The word "feat" is quoted by the author. You understand what this stylistic device means.

              I’m generally systematic, that is, I read on the internet :)))) (the weakest option possible) But the fact is that, in his opinion, a feat would be if the Varangian would sink Takachikho and the destroyer, and if he hadn’t, and there was no feat.
              1. Curious
                Curious 13 May 2018 20: 51
                +1
                I have the original of 1906. By the way, I don’t remember something, that he was trying to think about it somewhere or not. In any case, this is not exactly the case in the chapter on awards and in the chapter on the role of the fleet.
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 May 2018 23: 33
                  +2
                  Quote: Curious
                  so that he would try to think somewhere or not.

                  As it were, yes, but the bottom line is that by writing "it later turned out that there was no feat" he gave a hint, because the only thing that changed over time was the information about the losses of the Japanese
                  1. DimerVladimer
                    DimerVladimer 14 May 2018 15: 17
                    +3
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    As it were, yes, but the bottom line is that by writing "it later turned out that there was no feat" he gave a hint, because the only thing that changed over time was the information about the losses of the Japanese


                    The feat is not what losses were caused when trying to break through, not how many shots were fired and how many times they were hit, but because in a hopeless situation (a narrow and long fairway does not allow you to break past the blocking squadron, the artillery battle is hopeless) the crew performs his military duty, although this is against all reasonable arguments. The commander takes the ship into battle and shows the enemy that even in a hopeless situation the enemy does not expect an easy victory.
                    - Heroism is that in a hopeless situation, continue to fulfill their military duty!
          2. BAI
            BAI 13 May 2018 20: 44
            +4
            I think the key phrase from the specified section of this book is:
            Discontent among the officers became even stronger when it later became clear that in general in the battle indicated by the crew of the "Varyag" no feat was committed, and on the “Korean” there was almost no loss.

            But this is the personal opinion of the general (land), and no one has proved that it is objective and true.
            1. Curious
              Curious 13 May 2018 21: 10
              +5
              If you carefully read my first comment, then I cited the book not as an example of the ultimate truth, but as an example of the presence in society of a discussion on this issue for more than a hundred years. And I advise you to read the book.
              1. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 14 May 2018 10: 25
                +2
                In general, the decision on the universal rewarding of St. George's Crosses was unlawful. This issue should be decided by the thought of the St. George Knights.
          3. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 14 May 2018 10: 08
            +4
            And when, a couple of months later, they threw Boyarin after a mine explosion and he drifted a couple of days until he sank. Nobody despised the commander of Boyar Sarychev and his crew?
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 15 May 2018 15: 07
              +1
              And when, a couple of months later, they threw Boyar

              Colleague, so that you are healthy, but this happened on February 11, that is, through a couple of days
              Sarychev was put on trial, and transferred to the shore, where he trumpeted until the end of his service. And then he served not by the fleet, but by the admiralty. This is a pretty big step down for a combat officer. But do not forget that Sarychev was without a bulldozer - the St. George Knight. According to the gunboat in which he served, he flew during a shootout with Taku - Mama Do not Cry!
              1. TermNachTer
                TermNachTer 15 May 2018 22: 57
                +2
                I didn’t know about Taku, but this doesn’t justify him. Throw a cruiser, which was then afloat for another two days. It is good that the Japanese were not there.
                1. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 16 May 2018 10: 52
                  +2
                  Colleague, this is my assumption - no more. But that was the case. Sarychev acted according to the instructions. Was there a blast? - was! Is water coming? - Arriving! Can't stop the receipt? - Failed!
                  What to do? - Save the crew! The evacuation took place in perfect order, people organized, with personal weapons, got into boats and left the ship in distress.
                  And then the question arises, how did a ship in distress, without a crew, then hang out in the bay for another two days?
                  Obviously, the incoming water filled a certain volume of the cruiser’s interior, but this was not enough to prevent it from losing buoyancy ... And, sadly, it must be admitted that Sarychev did not have the appropriate knowledge of the "state property" entrusted to him. (This clericalism approximately corresponds to today's - "materiel"). At that time, naval officers were not taught such things as unsinkability. But there were still mechanics there! (Onishchenko and Orlov), they looked where they were, they were supposed to know such things in the service.
                  In general, one cannot but agree with the words of the senior officer of the battleship "Poltava" Lutonin.
                  "Not the Japanese defeated us, but our orders."
                  1. TermNachTer
                    TermNachTer 16 May 2018 11: 14
                    +1
                    And why not try to get at least to the nearest shore? As far as I remember, the case was not far from Dalniy. That is, 20 miles to the coast, well maybe 30.
                    1. Senior seaman
                      Senior seaman 19 May 2018 11: 05
                      +2
                      Damn, as it were softer. Colleague, I understand that you have very close concepts about hydrography and war at sea, but not as much!
                      So, "Yenisei" put mines on the subject of not admitting the enemy to the shore. The Boyar on these mines was blown up, so what? Around, suddenly, a minefield. At least between him and the nearest shore - for sure.
                      And why not try to get at least to the nearest shore?

                      You won’t believe it, but you did. Boarded the boats and rowed oars :)))
                      1. TermNachTer
                        TermNachTer 19 May 2018 11: 29
                        +1
                        Actually, I'm not talking about boats, I'm talking about Boyarin myself. If a ship is afloat for two days, then not everything is so bad. So at least one or two boilers could be put into operation and at least reach the nearest shore. Regarding hydrography and war. Hydrography was taught to us in a sailor quite superficially. True, the sailor was civilian, or rather fishing. Therefore, naval art we went through in the volume - "naval training of the crews of civilian vessels."
          4. DimerVladimer
            DimerVladimer 14 May 2018 15: 25
            +5
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            That is, we are not talking about the fact that the officers despised Rudnev and his team for what they did wrong in battle, but simply that the tsar should not have been awarded them for this by George


            A fleet is not a ground army at all. Generals do not go on the offensive in the general chain.
            Unlike ground officers and generals, the admiral leads his squadron into battle and fully shares his fate with the crew.
            The ship's commander decides to go into a hopeless battle - and this is the common fate of the crew - either all to the bottom or torn apart by shells.
            It is this decision made and the subsequent hopeless battle that is a universally recognized feat, the attitude of which was shared even by former opponents, after opening the museum of the heroic crew of the cruiser Varyag after the war.
            The surviving ranks from the Varangian were lucky, the ship could not continue the battle and returned to the port.
            Not only the commander and officers are awarded for this feat - fate was shared - that is, everyone is awarded.
    2. sib.ataman
      sib.ataman 13 May 2018 19: 20
      +5
      It's not even the British! We are not contemporaries of those events! But the amount of information we know about those events (which may exceed the amount of information available to the participants in those events, moreover, significantly) does not put us on a par with them! We are very different from them! And, I completely agree, we cannot be categorical in our judgments about their actions! No wonder the Bible was written, do not judge!
    3. Antares
      Antares 15 May 2018 21: 33
      +2
      Quote: Curious
      That's how the English are.

      Yes, these proud British and Raglan criticized in the Times (at that time) and prophesied his resignation.
      And nothing is honored.
  44. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 13 May 2018 19: 17
    +6
    On the roads of this neutral port were “not in the works” French, American, Italian ships. In the upcoming turmoil would get to everyone, without exception, Tsushima was not there, the ability of the Japanese to shoot exactly everyone doubted.
    Not that panic, but Rudnev made it clear that the Russian-Japanese showdown to all to the waterline.

    You haven’t prescribed this moment in vain. Foreign cruisers in Incheon did not just stand there, but in confirmation of the neutrality guarantees of this Korean port. Generally speaking, they all had to go to sea with Rudnev. But who would doubt that the guarantees were suddenly and not quite guarantees, if you need to close your eyes, they’re peacekeepers even today ...
  45. Bersaglieri
    Bersaglieri 13 May 2018 20: 41
    0
    Great stuff!
  46. Cannonball
    Cannonball 13 May 2018 20: 50
    +1
    Chemulpo battle patterns


    1. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 13 May 2018 23: 19
      0
      In this diagram, Varyag's blow with his face on the island is remarkably visible, after a rather long circulation. And as a result, a strong roll to this very left port.

      However, it seems to me that the details of this battle are not quite what the author wanted to say in his article.
  47. Svetlana
    Svetlana 13 May 2018 20: 51
    0
    Quote: Proxima
    the Japanese were able to appreciate the feat of a real WARRIOR, even if he was their opponent.


    on 3.04 a commemorative plaque - engraving on the stone of the grave at the Russian cemetery in Nagasaki:
    Russian soldiers and sailors
    dead and dead
    in Japan during the war of 1904-1905
    (built in 1909.)
    1. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 13 May 2018 21: 47
      +2
      Alas, in World War II their attitude towards prisoners changed dramatically.
      1. Antares
        Antares 13 May 2018 22: 51
        +3
        Quote: TermNachTER
        Alas, in World War II their attitude towards prisoners changed dramatically.

        before the REV there was a QW. And for example, the Chinese Port Arthur (Lushun)
        Japanese troops staged a merciless 4-day massacre in Lushong on the pretext that the remains of captured Japanese soldiers were found in the city, captured by Xu Bandao’s troops during a sortie. According to Chinese estimates, about 20 thousand civilians died, regardless of gender and age. Of the entire population of the city, according to Frederic Villiers, only 36 people were left who were supposed to bury the corpses of the dead. On their caps, by order of the Japanese command, it was written: "Do not kill these." The collection of bodies lasted for a month, after which, by order of the Japanese, a huge mountain of bodies was doused with oil and set on fire, maintaining fire for 10 days. Ashes and charred bones were buried at the foot of Baiyushan Mountain in 4 large coffins on the eastern side of the mountain. This place is currently known as the “Tomb of 10000 Loyal”

        The Japanese still had some feelings for the white man. All the same, the British and Americans brought to the senses Asians (who did not spare the Chinese) but on their own head.
  48. Proxima
    Proxima 13 May 2018 21: 24
    0
    Quote: Sea Devil
    Someone who can cut it down is better: why, then, the captain of a long voyage, and not a long voyage.

    Witty! lol
  49. exo
    exo 13 May 2018 21: 29
    +2
    Rare, extremely sober, for our time, article.
  50. Zakonnik
    Zakonnik 13 May 2018 22: 49
    +1
    About Varyag - I agree. He became famous thanks to royal PR and song. And as for Aurora, an adjustment is needed here. It is necessary to glorify the heroes, but do not forget about the shot. He opened the way to the socialist revolution. And it was a great achievement. But here, in principle, it is necessary to rule the whole ideology, starting from the Yeltsin Center.