Military Review

"Anachronism", which is so lacking!

112
Non-holiday notes on the margins of a great holiday.


"Anachronism", which is so lacking!


Another Victory Day and ... another stream of the unconscious from our homegrown ignoramuses. For example, such a “patriotic” poster, supposedly evoking the brightest civil feelings.



But this is fake! For the simple reason that its authors simply do not own the theme that they are trying to beat, so to speak. The poster is about 1945, the victorious year, and the lieutenant of the Red Army depicted on it wears a military uniform of the 1940-1943 type, in which he could not finish the war in 1945. By that time, Soviet fighters and commanders had been wearing a new uniform with epaulets for almost three years.

At first glance, it seems to be a trifle. But in fact, such negligence in detail speaks of ignorance of the topic and the absence of the authors' right to draw any conclusions. The price of such agitation is zero. If not worse. Because distrust of the poor propaganda material gives the viewer a distrust of the topic itself. And the feeling that they are trying to deceive him.

I do not even rule out that such bases are specially organized on the very eve of a large national holiday so as to devalue its significance. Like, all this is a lie and a lie. You see, even on posters any nonsense is painted.

And it would be naive to think that such a planting of unbelief does not produce results.

Moreover, the matter is not limited only to illiterate pictures. Even more blasphemous technology of so-called fake veterans is being launched more often into the pre-holiday turnover. Within the framework of which, people of suitable (old) age are dressed in military uniform and hung with the most inconceivable "iconostasis" of orders and medals. Up to three stars of the Hero of the Soviet Union and a dozen orders of Lenin on one chest, which in itself literally screams that it is a hoax.

As a result, colorful rollers are walking on the Internet, where these false veterans with a crunch are brought to clean water. And the idea is being implicitly carried out that all the other still-living participants in the war are most likely the same deceivers, because the real front-line soldiers have long since died. Even older people with a seemingly correct world view are increasingly falling for this bait. Here is a good friend who wrote me about this:

“I have not believed in veterans for a long time. Who fought already gone. "


I had to put aside all the cases and refute this undue propaganda inspired by unwarranted pessimism.

“My wife's father is Leonty Kondratievich Ilyashevsky. He is now 93 of the year. He was drafted to the Red Army in the 1943 year on reaching the age of 18. He fought as part of the Red Army in 1944-45 in the calculation of the self-propelled anti-aircraft gun. Wounded during the Balaton operation in Hungary in March 1945. Now preparing for the holiday 9 May. ”



In the center is a soldier-front soldier Ilyashevsky Leonty Kondratievich (photo 2013 of the year)

In this case, everything ended quite well. My interlocutor, having received such convincing evidence, did not insist that all veterans "left":

“Congratulations to the WARRIOR! I thank them very much for our life, for our peace, for the fact that we were able to understand life, thanks to them, and to the children to convey a lot. My dad was a WARRIOR. The whole family is proud! I remember from my childhood how wooden dentures creaked, how they all treasured life and peace. ”


But this история with the operational debunking of false stereotypes of perception of reality inspired from the outside is almost unique. In most cases, people who are deprived of undeniable evidence to the contrary are easily led to such things. And fakes quite successfully doing their job, giving rise to mass disbelief.

Why it happens? There are several answers. First of all, the colossal level of the fall of the general education of the population. And especially in terms of saving his cultural and historical code. That is, that which in former times was given extremely serious, if not paramount importance. By the way, in the same America so far. And let no one be deceived by the fact that the local “ideological department of the Central Committee of the CPSU” is called Hollywood. The purpose is essentially the same.

But with state ideology and its support at the level of specialized government agencies, things are, to put it mildly, unimportant. And if you call a spade a spade, then this topic is almost neglected. And, accordingly, it is lowered on the lowest, as a matter of fact, domestic level. Where everyone is free to sculpt what will come to his head. For example, such:



I note in passing that I did this photo not somewhere in a crazy Ukraine, but only a couple of years ago in one of the Moscow region cities.

Why couldn’t there have been such a thing before? Because any ideological product was considered as the most important strategic tool for influencing the public consciousness. In such a serious matter there could be no question of some kind of spontaneity, amateur work and dilettantism. Any work of this kind was monitored and coordinated at the highest levels. No exceptions allowed.

And again - an example from a personal biography. At the end of the 80s, I served in the Soviet Southern Group of Forces in Hungary. The local “European Democrats” actively opposed the so-called “Soviet occupation” and sealed the whole country with the malicious spiteful anti-Soviet posters “Comrades. The end! ”I felt very sad that the“ artistic image ”of these comrades was the swollen back of the head of a supposedly Soviet military man. And I had the idea to make a return poster, refuting this enemy slander. We were looking for a suitable type not for long. A soldier of the guard company headquarters Nikolai Antipov, somewhat similar to the actor Kostolevsky, approached immediately. And the poster with his kind smile and farewell address “All the best, Hungarians!” Was soon seen by the whole country.


On the right is a poster of the Hungarian Democratic Forum “Comrades. The end! ”On the left - our answer to it

But what is important! Before this “propaganda material” went into circulation and was distributed throughout Hungary, it was sent from Budapest to Moscow, where it was carefully discussed and coordinated in a number of instances. And until each of them gave her “good”, there was nothing to think about the success of this venture. And even the print run of the poster was printed in Moscow and delivered to the YUGV by airplanes.

One may be ironic about the Soviet passion for reinsurance. I will say even more. To myself, a young officer who had already tasted the fruits of perestroika at that time, such super-vigilance of the center at that time also seemed excessive and archaic.

But at the sight of what the current ideological permissiveness, value omnivorousness and illiterate promiscuity led to, it often seems to me that it was then that everything in this area was done correctly. Because the mass consciousness is the very substance that underlies everything. And ideology is a very delicate instrument that requires jewelry tuning. And it is very bad when a vulgar hammer is used instead, with which stupidly hammer nails into our head. Especially if this hammer holds the hand of the enemy.
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  1. Vard
    Vard 7 May 2018 05: 50
    +30
    The truth is that now the celebration of the anniversary of the great victory has turned into a show ...
    1. siberalt
      siberalt 7 May 2018 07: 56
      +17
      The president will swear on the Yeltsin Constitution for guaranteeing the inadmissibility of state ideology. What kind of ideology is mentioned in the article in general? belay
      1. E_V_N
        E_V_N 7 May 2018 14: 18
        +12
        Quote: siberalt
        The president will swear on the Yeltsin Constitution for guaranteeing the inadmissibility of state ideology. What kind of ideology is mentioned in the article in general?

        What are you talking about, what kind of ideology, the leadership of 30 years has been standing on a “common path” on the one hand looking for “scraps” and “reasons” for pride, but it turns out to be proud except for the achievements of the USSR more and nothing more, on the other hand you need to somehow justify the collapse of this USSR itself, to prove that everything was bad in the USSR, but now everything is fine and "democracy" and 300 varieties of sausage models on the shelves "with the taste and smell" of Soviet sausage.
        This is where the prohibitions of ideology come from, a curtained mausoleum, St. George ribbons instead of the banner of victory, oh, and it's hard to turn inside out, to prove that white is actually black, and our grandfathers did not take Berlin under that banner.
      2. gladcu2
        gladcu2 9 May 2018 19: 25
        0
        The problem of the Russian Federation, and indeed of the whole world, is the economic system. There is no ideology in the system. The system is running the system. Her work is monitored and corrected, if necessary. Including at the moral and ideological level.

        But a country built on ideology only, stability can lose. Therefore, building a country on a system where there is no ideology is rather a plus than a minus.
        1. Vasilenko Vladimir
          Vasilenko Vladimir 9 May 2018 21: 48
          +3
          Quote: gladcu2
          Therefore, building a country on a system where there is no ideology is rather a plus than a minus.

          yes, only plus this one for traders
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. svp67
      svp67 7 May 2018 09: 22
      +7
      Quote: Vard
      The truth is that now the celebration of the anniversary of the great victory has turned into a show ...

      But the world does not stand still, it lives, it develops. And in a good sense of the show, that's great. Since the veterans are almost gone, but the youth need to somehow convey information. What’s worse is that the “co-workers” take up the job, along with the Lyapkins and Tyapkins ... and as a result we get pure horror.


      1. beeper
        beeper 7 May 2018 12: 33
        +7
        Svp67 colleague, the photo on the billboard is very similar (in terms of glazing, size and location of the pilot) to the cockpit of Hitler's (!) Heinkel-111 bomber (although, due to distortion of the lens, it may be the "Junkers" or "Dornievsky cockpit - the concept of "the whole crew in one cabin" was applied to them all) or is it the English ???
        I’ve been off topic for a long time, but I clearly see that it’s somehow not at all like the cockpit of any Soviet bomber, seaplane or transport aircraft of the Second World War. IMHO
        1. your1970
          your1970 7 May 2018 12: 55
          +9
          You are right, a hundred times already discussed - Heinkel-111, on the Internet there is a complete photo with the signature and dating of the picture
          1. beeper
            beeper 7 May 2018 14: 52
            +5
            Thank you for your reply, Comrade Svoy1970!
            Perhaps that’s the fact that German tourists are happy when they look at their Nazi vulture grandfathers, who are festively decorating the streets of Russian cities, which they burned and bombed ?!
            Hitler’s shortcomings in their memoirs even peeed that occupying foreign countries and ruthlessly destroying the local population, they allegedly “fought for their Vaterland (as the now-Phashington vultures bombard and wreak deadly chaos" for American democracy ")"!
            Well, and these billboards, apparently, by “kolsurengoy” broods, “sabbats”, either out of thought, or already “svidomo”, with intent ?!
          2. Antares
            Antares 7 May 2018 21: 49
            +5
            Quote: your1970
            Heinkel-111, on the Internet there is a complete photo with the signature and dating of the picture

            The crew of the 71st Luftwaffe Bomber Squadron (KG71) in the cockpit of the Ju-88 bomber
            the author of "Banner" almost did not lie. He did not indicate his homeland simply.
            Piled on a certain "young man" confused photos.
            1. beeper
              beeper 7 May 2018 22: 46
              +3
              Thank you, dear Antares! So this corner at the top of the glazed me was confused, it’s kind of Junkers’s one, but, in general, the point is not exactly which Hitler bomber ... in today's Berlin, the Germans probably wouldn’t hang a festive billboard with Soviet pilots in a Soviet bomber and with such an inscription or a commemorative plaque to Joseph Stalin, and in Russia Hitler’s vultures flaunt, and they honor the enemy Manerheim ???
              1. your1970
                your1970 8 May 2018 08: 39
                +1
                plead guilty, forgot
      2. Lycan
        Lycan 11 May 2018 10: 30
        0
        But there is no arguing with persons acting on the billboard - they really fought in our homeland. But on his side and against our ancestors. Just think, "the subtleties of understanding are not finished."
      3. Givi_49
        Givi_49 11 May 2018 22: 46
        +1
        On the poster "May 9 Victory Day!" Depicts the American Torpedo Squadron Grumman TBF / TBM Avenger. A disgrace.
    4. Deck
      Deck 9 May 2018 07: 44
      +6
      Patriotism for money is like selling female love. Very similar to the truth, but the feeling is vile. Falsehood and contempt for the propagandized. Isn't it Mr. Selivanov?

    5. Dimmedroll
      Dimmedroll 9 May 2018 19: 01
      +2
      To each his own. until I see the show. Everything is almost like in childhood.
  2. 210ox
    210ox 7 May 2018 06: 08
    +10
    Yes, and a lieutenant’s bag of shops from the German MP .... Yes, and the MP itself is in the hands ... But this is not so important. Maybe it's time to introduce an article for distorting the truth?
    1. Vladivostok1969
      Vladivostok1969 7 May 2018 06: 19
      +4
      This is a consequence of the fact that Wikipedia answers all questions, and all pictures are taken thoughtlessly from the Internet.
    2. Mik13
      Mik13 7 May 2018 07: 37
      +3
      Quote: 210ox
      Yes, and a lieutenant’s bag of shops from the German MP .... Yes, and the MP itself is in the hands ... But this is not so important. Maybe it's time to introduce an article for distorting the truth?

      Yes, this is just normal for 1945 year ...
      MP-40 - not the worst machine gun pistol, and was used quite often by officers. Since the state they generally put TT or Nagan ...


      1. would
        would 7 May 2018 08: 48
        +4
        I will also add to the fact that in Soviet films about the war more than once or more than two Soviet soldiers and officers fight precisely with MP. That is, this image was enshrined in the minds of people through beautiful films.
        1. your1970
          your1970 7 May 2018 10: 35
          +10
          in my opinion - the poster author had in mind "1945" not like date a poster - but as a symbol of Victory. The one depicted in 1941-42 did everything possible to bring victory closer in 1945
      2. Old warrior
        Old warrior 9 May 2018 08: 46
        0
        Come on, ordinary front-line show-offs ... smile
    3. EwgenyZ
      EwgenyZ 7 May 2018 08: 57
      +11
      Quote: 210ox
      Maybe it's time to introduce an article for distorting the truth?

      Who will evaluate where the truth is, and where is the fiction? All the same who are now taking the parades from the stands? Or will a separate "Ministry of Truth" be created? Who will lead him? Any clever man from the Kremlin pool?
      To start, you need to start with your family. Whose children / grandchildren know their ancestors, well, at least great-grandfathers? When the descendants will know the history of their family, then they will be interested in the history of their Country, (I’m sure that many have descendants in the family who served Russia as an affair), then there will be an interest in history ... In the meantime, we will see posters with the SS men , with white-star “Sherman” (and what, a star), with, albeit trophy, “Panthers” and other congratulations on Victory Day.
      1. Opera
        Opera 7 May 2018 10: 17
        +3
        Quote: EwgenyZ
        To start, you need to start with your family. Whose children / grandchildren know their ancestors, well, at least great-grandfathers? When the descendants will know the history of their family, then they will be interested in the history of their Country (I’m sure that many have descendants in the family who served Russia as a cause), and then interest in history will appear ...

        I totally agree with you! In the article, a friend of the author says - I do not believe in veterans ... Is that a question? I believe - I do not believe! You don't need to believe in veterans! This is fundamentally wrong. You need to know about their deeds and exploits! We always nod at the authorities, then at school, kindergarten will soon be blamed! But what about you and me? After all, we bring up and are responsible for our children! The history of our Great Country should begin with a book that a father or mother reads to a child! From photos of great-grandfathers and great-grandmothers in old albums and our stories about the Great Patriotic War!
      2. aybolyt678
        aybolyt678 7 May 2018 11: 46
        +3
        Quote: EwgenyZ
        In the meantime, we will see posters with the SS men, with the white-star “Sherman” (and what, the star is), with, albeit trophy, “Panthers” and other congratulations on Victory Day.

        in the war there were also HF with crosses ... a trophy machine instead of a three-ruler is a very good option. another thing is how to convey the spirit of the times? community of people, purpose, hatred of the enemy? How to make us hate imported stores? to win the economic war.
        1. EwgenyZ
          EwgenyZ 7 May 2018 23: 23
          +4
          Quote: aybolyt678
          in the war there were also HF with crosses ... a trophy machine instead of a three-ruler is a very good option. another thing is how to convey the spirit of the times?

          Everything was, and the LA-5FN with the crosses flew, and the Me-109 with the stars were. But the symbol of Victory should not be the captured Panther, but, best of all, the T-34, or some other tank of ours. Should not captured, or allied technology be a symbol of our Victory.
    4. WUA 518
      WUA 518 7 May 2018 14: 44
      +2
      Quote: 210ox
      Yes, and a lieutenant’s bag of shops from the German MP .... Yes, and the MP itself is in the hands ... But this is not so important. Maybe it's time to introduce an article for distorting the truth?


    5. Merold
      Merold 7 May 2018 14: 49
      +2
      Quote: 210ox
      .Can it be time to introduce an article for distorting the truth?

      Well, then start with the General Staff of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, so that he does not broadcast fakes.

      Back in 2012, US presidential candidate Mitt Romney said:
      “Our goal is Russia. This wild country ... is not only a threat to the United States. Russia is a threat to all of humanity.
      ... Our task is to make Russia devour itself from within, introducing confusion and discord into the society of this country. ... We will make the Russians take up arms. We will set up Chechens, Tatars, Bashkirs, Dagestanis against Russians. We must make them fight each other. We must multiply actions aimed at discrediting the Orthodox Church in Russia.
      And, if none of the above works, we will have no choice but to declare a quick and victorious war on this country.
      We destroyed the USSR, we will destroy Russia as well ”

      Fake, by the way, is cheap (like a video from Apache), checked in 5 minutes.
  3. kashcheevo egg
    kashcheevo egg 7 May 2018 06: 09
    +3
    See what posters in the city of Kurgan hung in the central square. This is beyond. For Victory Day, type in the search engine barrow Victory Day posters ... the cognitive shock is simple
    1. Antares
      Antares 7 May 2018 21: 54
      +1
      Quote: kashcheyevo egg
      Victory Day mound posters

      there ... spelling mistakes .. but with the Germans the posters are much more serious.
  4. apro
    apro 7 May 2018 06: 10
    +8
    Victory is a great business project.
    If only those who had made the Victory of the Soviet people would have seen this darkness now. That descendants turned this bright event ...
    1. aybolyt678
      aybolyt678 7 May 2018 11: 47
      +2
      Quote: aybolyt678
      . that the descendants turned this bright event ...

      from May 9, a poster hangs at an imported underwear store, or at a bend to a supermarket such as Auchan. angry
  5. Moore
    Moore 7 May 2018 06: 30
    +6
    As a result, colorful videos walk on the Internet, where these false veterans are crunched out into the open. And the idea is being held implicitly that all the other still alive participants in the war are most likely the same deceivers, because real war veterans have long died.

    A controversial thought. That lately these same "lies ..." divorced even a dime a dozen - alas, an indisputable fact. But that they all act according to a single plan to discredit the real veterans is highly doubtful. These "children of Lieutenant Schmidt" pursue their interests when material, when simply marasmatic, and their "whistleblowers", do not always carry out the idea indicated by the author - the same twower from LJ.
    1. cedar
      cedar 7 May 2018 06: 55
      +3
      In vain doubt. They act according to a single plan of the USA (NATO) - this is a fact ...
      "Since 2015, Russian socio-political NGOs have already received 80 billion rubles from the United States alone.
      See the root. Who pays and orders another "collapse", but not the USSR, but Russia, which begins, as you know, with brains ...

      RIA Novosti https://ria.ru/election2018_news/20180305/1515752
      287.html
      1. Moore
        Moore 7 May 2018 07: 14
        +26
        Do not exaggerate and multiply entities.
        Is this granny occasionally raising herself in military ranks, a NATO secret agent?

        And the collapse of the brain, as you say, where I could, has already passed. 300 varieties of sausages, chewing gum, jeans - everything is there, everything has been achieved.
        In order to eradicate the genetic memory of the Great Patriotic War in the hearts of the people, it’s not necessary to dress up the granny - it’s ridiculous and ridiculous. There are other methods.
        Moreover, our leaders sometimes render all possible assistance - they either cover the mausoleum, hang the Mannerheim’s board, or with pink ears they bashfully and quietly order not to hang portraits of the Supreme High Command and not to let them into the column of the Immortal Regiment. With Nikola it is possible, with Stalin - no.
        1. Old warrior
          Old warrior 9 May 2018 08: 49
          0
          Yes. And you do not know? A drop and a stone wears away.
  6. Alone
    Alone 7 May 2018 06: 43
    +14
    If the state does not officially have an ideology, then why be surprised ..
    1. To be or not to be
      To be or not to be 7 May 2018 13: 44
      +1
      Quote: Alone
      If the state does not officially have an ideology, then why be surprised ..

      "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "All-Russian political party" United Russia "- the Russian liberal-conservative political party, the largest political party of the Russian Federation, the" party of power ". ... The United Russia party supports the general political course of the President of the Russian Federation. "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" ""
      "
  7. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 7 May 2018 06: 57
    +10
    The fact that nosy traders use Victory Day for their own selfish purposes and often with such an excess that you wonder is surprising. But the question arises as to why administrative measures are not being taken to distort the facts of the Second World War (and this is not even buttonholes with kubars in 1945, but German tanks, which are presented as victorious tanks, and much more). And not only traders, but also officials of administrations sin this.
    1. Mik13
      Mik13 7 May 2018 07: 43
      +7
      Quote: rotmistr60
      But the question arises, why administrative measures are not taken to distort the facts of the Second World War (and these are not even buttonholes with kubars in 1945, but German tanks, which are presented as winning tanks, and much more).

      Yeah ... Shoot all nafig ... And burn archive photos. To avoid...




      1. Dart
        Dart 7 May 2018 21: 54
        +5
        So what? These are isolated cases throughout the war regarding all quantities of equipment and weapons. Do you propose to stick it out on every poster? The purpose of the poster is ideological, and the content should be consistent with the image.
    2. yawa63
      yawa63 7 May 2018 08: 24
      +5
      This is simply explained - fathers (mothers) - officials attach their children to warm places in the administration of all kinds, dumb offspring, harder ... who did not hold anything in their hands and who did not read a single book, act as consultants, and here he is, the result - there are lots of examples!
      1. Old warrior
        Old warrior 9 May 2018 08: 52
        +1
        This is not something safe with its stupidity - it is normal such ideological and sabotage work. The enemy does not sleep. Not to understand this is criminal.
  8. Double major
    Double major 7 May 2018 07: 17
    +3
    The information front is not to go on the attack ... That's right.
    1. To be or not to be
      To be or not to be 7 May 2018 13: 46
      0
      "" "THE MINISTRY EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE HAS FORBIDDEN TO CARRY OUT THE IMMORTAL REGIMENT ACTION IN MINSK" "
      http://www.imperiyanews.ru/details/9006433f-e051-
      e811-80ed-020c5d00406e
  9. Vasilenko Vladimir
    Vasilenko Vladimir 7 May 2018 08: 00
    +5
    But this is fake! For the simple reason that its authors simply do not own the topic that they are trying, so to speak, to beat. The poster refers to 1945, the victorious year, and the lieutenant of the Red Army depicted on it is dressed in a military uniform of the 1940-1943 model, in which he could not end the war in 1945. By that time, Soviet fighters and commanders for almost three years wore a new uniform with epaulets
    this is the norm, any modern film about that period is a solid blunder, from awards to clothes, "I serve the working people" at 41 already
    1. BAI
      BAI 7 May 2018 13: 16
      +2
      It was before:
      "Liberation" - T34-85 on the Kursk.
      “Battle for Moscow” - T34-85 in 1941.
      "Blockade" - IS3 - in 1941.
      "Stalingrad" (Ozerova) - T34-85 in 1942.
      1. Vasilenko Vladimir
        Vasilenko Vladimir 7 May 2018 14: 00
        +9
        There wasn’t anything like this before, and your examples weren’t quite correct, they couldn’t find the tank you needed, they inserted a similar one, but when a girl hangs a medal of 41 years of the Red Army at 20, or when they serve the working people at 41, this indicates the unprofessionalism of those who set the scene
      2. Old warrior
        Old warrior 9 May 2018 08: 54
        +1
        IS-3, T-34-85, these days ..., are fighting in the Donbass ...
  10. parusnik
    parusnik 7 May 2018 08: 03
    +2
    depicted on it is a lieutenant of the Red Army
    - Shot from the film "Hot Snow" ... Already a plus, maybe the authors watched this film ...
  11. parusnik
    parusnik 7 May 2018 08: 08
    +10
    What scares me is different ... May 9 ... will soon become a brand ... a commercial brand ... And what do you want in the country of market relations and victorious capitalism ... Do you not see the contradiction, the bourgeois recall (this is me about the system, not about ordinary citizens) of Soviet soldiers with "warmth and love" ....
    1. would
      would 7 May 2018 08: 54
      +9
      What does it mean to become? It has become and has long been.
    2. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 7 May 2018 14: 11
      +3
      Quote: parusnik
      ..Do you not see the contradiction, the bourgeois recall (this is me about the system, not about ordinary citizens) Soviet soldiers with "warmth and love" ....
      Probably, such words ---- to create a "" positive image "." As part of a commercial project.
  12. polikarpich
    polikarpich 7 May 2018 08: 24
    +1
    If the habit of maintaining good nature and love has been developed, then a series of health problems strengthens the spirit, endless strikes on fate (spirit) strengthen the soul, a series of humiliation of the soul, about which the author wrote this article, strengthens human love, and if your loved ones spit on your soul as Georgia and Ukraine do, then human love is transformed into Divine love. It `s that. what we have for today. And tomorrow, a soul filled with Divine love will remember and understand what was preached two thousand years ago and a new morality and a new civilization will be created. Until a new morality is formed, the constitution will prohibit state ideology.
    Seventy years of the pagan state disfigured our souls. You write about posters, and why two million abortions leave you indifferent. But two million is every year and several decades in a row. Is it possible to allow people killing two million children to live happily ever after?
    1. raw174
      raw174 7 May 2018 10: 37
      +10
      That's right! And if you believe in Jehovah, then life will become honey in general! You sectarians are such eccentrics)))
      1. polikarpich
        polikarpich 7 May 2018 13: 47
        0
        Two thousand years ago, Christ preached. Gramatei.
        1. raw174
          raw174 7 May 2018 13: 59
          +3
          Quote: polycarpych
          Two thousand years ago, Christ preached.

          I am aware of what the "holy books" say ... It was sarcasm wink
          Jews created two brilliant things:
          1. They wrote the Bible;
          2. They came up with drip irrigation.
          PS You write so confidently, as if you yourself remember who preached 2 thousand years ago ...
  13. erased
    erased 7 May 2018 08: 41
    +13
    True written. Especially touches the new chip with the "St. George ribbon". Although such in nature has not existed for more than a century. There were Soviet awards with such a ribbon, but this is another matter. And now she is actively replaced by the red color of victory. As well as the story of the Mausoleum. So far they are afraid to demolish, but they hide hysterically.
    And in general, the holiday of May 9 ceased to be as such. The backgammon that won the war was almost gone. And their descendants prosrali country and rejoice in this. What are we celebrating? The memory of a great country and great people? Or someone else's victory?
    The Russian Federation pleases more and more every day. But this is the joy of going to the slaughterhouse.
    1. Mestny
      Mestny 7 May 2018 09: 37
      +5
      Calm down.
      The country has not gone anywhere. She's just different.
      No need for pathos about someone else's victory. She is still ours - as the descendants of great people. They just fought for the sake of there would be no more such a war. And she’s been gone for almost 80 years.
      Well, and that the memory is transformed - this is natural, alas. It has always been and will be.
      When the last witnesses leave in the most reliable version, everything will remain only in the archives and writings of historians. The rest will move on. Yes, they will remember and will honor. But it is foolish to demand historical authenticity in the smallest details. Thank you for remembering.
  14. victor50
    victor50 7 May 2018 09: 11
    +8
    Quote: polycarpych
    Seventy years of the pagan state disfigured our souls. You write about posters, and why two million abortions leave you indifferent. But two million is every year and several decades in a row. Is it possible to allow people killing two million children to live happily ever after?

    And not ennobled by Christianity in 1918 unleashed a bloody civil war? But is it almost in a clerical state, where leaders in the front ranks of worshipers, and almost all believers, all these outrages occur? Your words have nothing to do with life, moreover, in spite of all their peacefulness and focus, you cannot be called a liar, because you push and even invent facts for your theory, which in principle does nothing to improve life.
    1. polikarpich
      polikarpich 7 May 2018 13: 57
      0
      "ennobled by Christianity in 1918 unleashed a bloody civil war." What year did you graduate from high school ???
      "You drive and even invent facts." Before writing this, it would be nice to read the Bible and try to understand what is written there. Still, the most published book of all time.
      1. victor50
        victor50 7 May 2018 16: 08
        +3
        Quote: polycarpych
        "ennobled by Christianity in 1918 unleashed a bloody civil war." What year did you graduate from high school ???
        "You drive and even invent facts." Before writing this, it would be nice to read the Bible and try to understand what is written there. Still, the most published book of all time.

        Obviously at the right time. Unlike many people who boast and make a thoughtful appearance, they read and not only her. Have you graduated from the parish, class 2? Or do you just essentially have nothing to say, so we make the same person about whom in the beginning ...?
  15. raw174
    raw174 7 May 2018 10: 26
    +6
    According to ideology, we have its absence in the constitution, the question is closed.
    The rest of the author support. Indeed, those who fought long ago in the land, with a VERY rare exception. Four were in my family (closest relatives), one died during the defense of Moscow, one went missing at the same time, one went missing already in the 43rd, one went to Berlin, stayed there to work on the restoration of enterprises, in the 50- x is back. These people are not alive, they did not have dozens of medals and orders ... We have one "veteran", he just does what he is trying to get some kind of help from the state, he just writes to all authorities ... He was called in 1945 Well, while I was getting to my unit, the war was over, but he was already in the army, served and returned, now there is the status of a WWII veteran and 3 kilogram medals ...
    There is a good singer now - Igor Rasteryaev, he has the song "St. George Ribbon", its meaning is very true, just in the subject of the article ...
    1. mkop
      mkop 7 May 2018 11: 30
      +3
      Let's all align under one comb. If one puts a medal, which he received for nothing - this does not mean that all of them. If one in his underwear is photographed on graves, the other fries kebabs on an eternal flame - this does not mean that all of them are. Stop aligning several individuals with deviations in behavior throughout society. In addition to those hundreds with moronism (or whatever their diagnosis), there are millions more who are healthy. Guided by your logic, even about you, you can think of anything, is there a psychiatric hospital in your city? Most likely there is, and most likely there are psychos. But this does not mean that the entire population of your city is crazy. People with disabilities are isolated from society, and do not draw conclusions that the whole society is. It does not happen, in principle, that everyone is healthy with their head, it DOESN’t, never, and under no circumstances.
      1. raw174
        raw174 7 May 2018 12: 31
        +4
        Quote: mkop
        Let's all align under one comb.

        I do not equal everyone ... I just say that most of those who fought in the Great Patriotic War and survived have long been resting in the ground, and a significant part of those who are honored today are mummers.
        Quote: mkop
        Is there a psychiatric hospital in your city?

        No, I live in the village. Our loonies are taken to Magnitogorsk for treatment, sometimes successfully)))
        Quote: mkop
        It does not happen, in principle, that everyone is healthy with their heads

        This is clear, the conversation is about something else, that today is a great holiday - the Victory Day of the people of the Soviet Union over fascist Germany, turned into a PR campaign. This, in principle, is not evil, the more hype, the more attention to the event itself ... The bad thing is that the celebration often grows in black PR (including mummers), it becomes just an occasion to plump under a barbecue ... That's what sad ...
    2. BAI
      BAI 7 May 2018 13: 19
      +2
      Indeed, those who fought long ago in the land, with a VERY rare exception

      According to the latest published official data, the total number of World War II veterans living in Russia does not exceed 1,8 million people, which is three hundred thousand people less than in 2016.

      Also, 1,28 million home front workers, 113 residents of besieged Leningrad, 500 former minor prisoners of fascism live in Russia.
      1. raw174
        raw174 7 May 2018 13: 43
        +3
        There is another veteran in one village in our area. When he came from the war, he got a job at a state farm and worked, but the old people of that time (according to the stories of their children, whom he knew personally) said that not the one who left was coming from the war. those. according to the documents he, but not his face. True or not, I don’t know for sure, but could it have happened? So in the statistics you cited, there is probably some part of the false veterans and other muddy personalities ...
        A grandmother, a blockade, lives near my parents. She is honored every year, but she is embarrassed by this, she says that she was taken out of Leningrad at the beginning of the blockade and was about 4 years old, she says that she is not comfortable having the status of a blockade ...
        1. your1970
          your1970 8 May 2018 11: 27
          +3
          I came across - that there was a fake Hero of the Soviet Union (completely forged all the documents in general and received like a real one, shot)
          The commander of a linden military unit (the famous military construction scam) was awarded the Order during the war
      2. Sasha_Sar
        Sasha_Sar 7 May 2018 15: 26
        +2
        The rear workers can still agree, 12 years old boys were standing at the machine, but the Great Patriotic War veterans, this is "piece" (I apologize to them for such a comparison). I personally knew one "veteran", God grant him health. In November 1944 he was drafted into the SA. In February 1945, after training, he got to the army’s communications center (how much is this in km from the front line?). There I met Victory Day. Formally, a veteran, but on the same level with those who were in the trench and with the "coil" under the sniper bullets he poked around, as it did not fit.
        1. saigon
          saigon 7 May 2018 17: 19
          +1
          Read about the staff of the rifle division in about 1943 and compare the number of rifle companies and the number of divisions.
          That would shoot one need a lot of providing.
          Yes, and the example with the communication center is not successful, the person fought, actually participated in the war.
          1. Sasha_Sar
            Sasha_Sar 8 May 2018 11: 07
            +1
            In my pure understanding, I fought, it means fired, or brought ammunition to the front line, where a person is ready to lose his dearest life every second. In this case, "Taburetkin", who received a medal for the "08.08.08", the same fought?
            1. Vasilenko Vladimir
              Vasilenko Vladimir 8 May 2018 11: 59
              +1
              Quote: Sasha_Sar
              In my pure understanding, I fought, it means fired, or brought ammunition to the front line

              and if he built a crossing, pulled the connection, carried the soldiers out of the battlefield, operated in a field medical battalion, planned military operations, etc.?!
              1. Sasha_Sar
                Sasha_Sar 8 May 2018 16: 08
                0
                They answered their own question. All those whom you listed walked under the "fire", and even the marshals planning operations crawled on their belly at the forefront. No need to "cling" to words.
                1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                  Vasilenko Vladimir 8 May 2018 16: 50
                  0
                  Quote: Sasha_Sar
                  No need to "cling" to words.

                  no need to speak rash words, there were officers of the General Staff, the NKVD, etc.
            2. saigon
              saigon 8 May 2018 15: 56
              +2
              That is, according to your equipment and gunsmiths in the assault and bomber regiments and in the fighter regiments did not fight?
              Artillery RGK did not fight? This is so for example.
              1. Sasha_Sar
                Sasha_Sar 8 May 2018 16: 21
                +2
                For example, we have such a holiday in the calendar as "Defender of the Fatherland Day", so I do not celebrate it, but celebrate "Day of the Soviet Army and Navy." By the fact that this "defender of the fatherland" became the "day of Gellette." Me with 16 "calendars" put on a par with the draft dodgers. This is an example.
                1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                  Vasilenko Vladimir 8 May 2018 16: 51
                  +1
                  and why this "crying yaroslavny" ?!
                2. saigon
                  saigon 8 May 2018 17: 10
                  +2
                  Interestingly, 16 calendar comes out. Is it that the defender of the 1st class or what?
                  And two years and participation in combat is that 2 class defender?
                  And if the soldier didn’t take part in the fighting, then what is he like a class 3 defender or what?
                  These are also questions for example.
  16. sib.ataman
    sib.ataman 7 May 2018 10: 53
    +3
    Many times already wrote komenty about the urgent need for an ideological platform! This is the basis of power! And her authorities both did not declare, and do not declare! Maybe for crooks she is useless? But for the country and the people, I would say, more important than bread!
    1. raw174
      raw174 7 May 2018 12: 34
      +2
      Quote: sib.ataman
      Many times already wrote komenty about the urgent need for an ideological platform!

      You can write as much as you like about the need, but are there any suggestions? What ideology do you see in Russia? maybe Chu-chhe?
  17. Gardamir
    Gardamir 7 May 2018 10: 57
    +8
    I read, thought and put a minus. Not to the author, but to the idea of ​​the article.
    The mausoleum, from which they went to defend Moscow, and to which the Nazi banners were thrown, again on Victory Day, is hung with rags painted in the colors of the European Union.
    No need to tell that the St. George ribbon is similar to the ribbon of the Order of Glory. There were no St. George ribbons in 1945. The question is settled!
    On Victory Day, we rejoice and honor the memory of the dead. Why a regiment was created in which St. George ribbons, the flags of the Russland division prevail, again. You can wear a portrait of Kolya number two, but you can not wear a portrait of Stalin.
    And in the end, all government officials consider the Soviet government to be evil, but so far they are reconciling with Victory Day. And a little later, victory will take place. Victory Day, will be celebrated not under the banner of victory, and there will be no Day, a penitent regiment will pass in the evening, repents for the cruel treatment of the Nazis.
    1. Golovan Jack
      Golovan Jack 7 May 2018 11: 06
      +2
      Quote: Gardamir
      I read, thought and put a minus. Not to the author, but to the idea of ​​the article

      Teach me too. I also want to put. Not to the author, but to you.
      PS: I also read and thought yes
    2. Gardamir
      Gardamir 7 May 2018 11: 12
      +6
      And in the sequel.
      1. raw174
        raw174 7 May 2018 13: 52
        +5
        Quote: Gardamir
        And in the sequel.

        This is the stuffing from you. The Federal Law clearly states about the Victory banner:
        The banner of the Victory is the assault flag of the 150th Order of Kutuzov, 1nd Class, by the Idritsky Rifle Division, hoisted on May 1945, XNUMX on the Reichstag building in the city of Berlin.

        those. there are no corrections in its glare. It is the same! and:
        The appearance of the copies of the Victory Banner must correspond to the appearance of the Victory Banner.

        You give out for the truth someone’s speculation ... Even in your photo you can see that the hammer and sickle are retouched in Photoshop!
    3. freddyk
      freddyk 7 May 2018 13: 13
      +4
      Quote: Gardamir
      And a little later there will be a victory substitution


      Already happening. Recently, I heard news about one deputy “making a reservation" - the Russian Federation won the Second World War.

      And in the sequel.


      Well, if the law of victory can be changed in our country, then in time it will be a tricolor, there is no doubt.
      1. raw174
        raw174 7 May 2018 13: 53
        +1
        Quote: freddyk
        Well, if we can change the banner of victory by law

        No. Read the law, not listen to bullshit ...
        1. Gardamir
          Gardamir 7 May 2018 14: 41
          +1
          nonsense.
          as well?
          https://www.volgograd.kp.ru/daily/26790.7/3824622
          /
          1. raw174
            raw174 7 May 2018 15: 09
            +1
            Quote: Gardamir
            as well?

            You have previously spoken about the LAW, and the article cited refers to gross and unacceptable negligence. The law has a clear interpretation of the type of banner. On May 9, in my village, a copy of the Victory Banner will be carried at the head of the procession, it will definitely have all the symbolism on it, it will exactly correspond to the original and this is LAW!
            All these squabbles, when preparing the law, have a place to be, and indeed, it seems like there were proposals to change the appearance of the banner, but in the end it was left as it was. Remember how they offered to erase the genitals of a sculpture from 100 rubles? Like Milonov ... But common sense is present ...
            1. Gardamir
              Gardamir 7 May 2018 15: 14
              +3
              talked about the LAW
              Not certainly in that way. It's about people who wanted to change the Banner of Victory, but they failed. So here we have nothing to argue about. But there are many facts when, under the guise of an alleged error, there is a substitution of characters
              1. raw174
                raw174 8 May 2018 06: 29
                +1
                Quote: Gardamir
                It's about people who wanted to change the Banner of Victory, but they failed.

                So there is still common sense in the upper echelons, there are those who block this insanity ... good hi
            2. freddyk
              freddyk 7 May 2018 16: 56
              +2
              Quote: raw174
              and indeed, it seemed like there were proposals to change the appearance of the banner, but in the end it was left the way it was

              That is, nevertheless theoretically it is possible. This time it did not work, Putin did not. But Putin is not forever. And we see the vector of development of the country, and it is towards decommunization.
              1. raw174
                raw174 8 May 2018 06: 39
                +1
                Quote: freddyk
                That is, nevertheless theoretically it is possible.

                Symbols are determined by laws, heraldry, the Victory Banner and so on - all this is determined and the form is determined by law. Therefore, yes, you can change, but it will not be called the Victory Banner, but otherwise (Flag of the winners, etc.).
                Quote: freddyk
                This time it did not work, Putin did not. But Putin is not forever.

                After Putin, you need to choose someone no worse, even better.
                Quote: freddyk
                And we see the vector of development of the country, and it is towards decommunization.

                And preservation of memory is a nationwide affair, first of all, our affair. If people make an effort to raise their children patriotically, governments will not have the opportunity to replace our memory. I think so...
  18. Larum
    Larum 7 May 2018 12: 28
    +9
    A daunting task of the government and the president! There is a victory, but we must somehow exclude from it the USSR, the sickle and hammer, the red banner, the Communists .... And quickly.
    Here are the monuments of Kalashnikov assault rifle with 90s pitching and a drawing of a German rifle.
    1. lukewarm
      lukewarm 7 May 2018 15: 54
      +6
      Not yet hang boards Manneheim and Kolchak. Making fun of Ukrainians with their Bandera ....
  19. seacap
    seacap 7 May 2018 13: 04
    +5
    The truth is that from foolishness or not to be trusted, or from unprofessionalism, then you need to drive a filthy broom from this area, but rather intentionally, because the authorities are still the same people (whether they are people) who killed the power and its people, but we lost the ideological war for the minds of people, most importantly for the minds of children, surrendered without a fight, without resistance, loyal and slandered by their own corrupt, mired in philistinism greedy and swaggering so-called an elite despising their homeland and its people. For this purpose, the system of education and upbringing, collectivism and social institutions were first destroyed, individualistic and alien values ​​were aggressively imposed on us, the cult of money and norms of an alien culture, destroying family, primordially traditional values ​​and norms of life.
    1. polikarpich
      polikarpich 7 May 2018 14: 52
      +3
      First, we completely lost morality, and then "lost the ideological war." I join the rest.
  20. mkop
    mkop 7 May 2018 13: 28
    +1
    Quote: raw174
    I do not equal everyone ... I just say that most of those who fought in the Great Patriotic War and survived have long been resting in the ground, and a significant part of those who are honored today are mummers.
    And on the basis of what did you draw such a conclusion?
  21. Normal ok
    Normal ok 7 May 2018 13: 49
    +5
    By that time, Soviet fighters and commanders had been wearing a new uniform with shoulder straps for almost three years.

    About 10 years ago, I listened to the news on one of the local channels. The announcer-sha listing the types of troops participating in local exercises, called the cavalry wassat and, as if nothing had happened, went on to quote from the autosupplier (and the editors missed it!). And, this is not an isolated case. There are thousands of such punctures. Personally, my opinion (I can be wrong) that the educational peak of the world we know (in general) coincided with the peak of the Cold War. Then all the participants specifically strained to achieve goals. And since then everyone has relaxed and degradation is everywhere observed. To this we can add that the governments of many countries are satisfied with this - they hope that the “herd” is easier to manage.
  22. lukewarm
    lukewarm 7 May 2018 14: 51
    +5
    Alas. We value only what is suffered. Victory brought to us by grandfathers on a silver platter. True, our generation (I was born in 1971) still remembers well the old grandfathers and unloaded veterans. We know the Great Patriotic War from them, from Soviet textbooks and films such as "Liberation" "They Fought for their Homeland", "Only Old Men Go to Battle". Now the time has come for the Kol-Urengoy. It’s profitable - I’ll go with the photo to the “Immortal Regiment”, they promise that it will be more interesting - I can wrap the tearful speech in the Bundestag. Alas. Those who are “lucky” go to the Bundestag, and those who are less fortunate — rivet posters in designer sharamas for the Great Day between main orders such as leaflets of hypermarkets. And to put this designer with the device that he piled there on this poster. Kinolyapov on the topic of war was also enough on the Soviet screen, which are cardboard Tigers in the battle for Moscow. There was not one thing - total indifference to everything except money. And now it comes through.
    A new war is knocking on the door. It will remind us of real values ​​and make us remember that Victory. And be proud of your victory. Those who survive. If she will. I doubt it.
  23. Sasha_Sar
    Sasha_Sar 7 May 2018 15: 06
    +3
    Because any ideological production was considered as the most important strategic tool for influencing public consciousness.
    We have replaced the ideology with the word "trend", now it is fashionable to be in this "trend". On the eve of Victory Day, volunteers put on St. George ribbons to passers-by. And I asked myself the question, how much sincerely and with understanding do people wear these ribbons? I have no doubt that Kolya from Urengoy also wears this ribbon on the eve of Victory, the official who did not want to provide a war veteran with an apartment and makes “laudatory” speeches, wears the same ribbon. Woe to officials from education who brought to naught the Second World War in history textbooks, fulfilling an order from the “top”, the same with a St. George ribbon on his chest. Our valiant prime minister, who said: “There is no money but you are holding on” and advised teachers to go into business, the same with the ribbon will be on Red Square with a draped mausoleum. Let's stop a hundred people with a St. George ribbon on the street and ask what it means? If at least one tells her story and why she became a symbol of Victory, it will be a success. It was correctly said above that we reduced the Victory Day to the show, and as a rule, a show is regarded as not a serious event.
  24. VeteranVSSSR
    VeteranVSSSR 7 May 2018 15: 50
    +3
    Quote: mkop
    Quote: raw174
    I do not equal everyone ... I just say that most of those who fought in the Great Patriotic War and survived have long been resting in the ground, and a significant part of those who are honored today are mummers.
    And on the basis of what did you draw such a conclusion?

    Sad conclusions are drawn from the realities of life ... alas.
    MAY 9 is a holy date. About 30 years ago I started the tradition of inviting neighbors from the street who fought / partisan. I live in the private sector, there was enough space for everyone under the blossoming apple trees. Families came with grandchildren, sang songs, grilled kebabs, someone cried, maybe layering, or maybe not ...
    But the last 10 years, after the death of my mother (28 year of birth, was stolen in Germany in 44), no one comes to me, no one is left alive.
    Father died 12/04/1964 (24 g / birth) - from Minsk to Berlin came on foot. Cavalier of the Order of Glory and other awards.
    Stepfather died 12 years ago (30 g / birth). In the year 43, the village of Dobrynevo, like Khatyn, was burned together with the inhabitants, fled and took with him two girls, 4 and 7 years old.
    Personally, I also think that just living witnesses of that terrible war are no longer alive, but direct participation ...
  25. sarissa
    sarissa 7 May 2018 17: 40
    +1
    “The world is ruled by ideologies.” Under this name, the article was here on the site. Good article. Chewed. What else is needed. Many algorithms were born not yesterday. They are known. Yes, here’s the rule, it’s right, it’s right, and the shirt is pathetic , "Gentlemen, comrades, men." Ah, yes. There was such a passage in the General Staff at the box office in the 90s. (Then I read it in the newspaper.) Umi-i-ilya to this day.
  26. sarissa
    sarissa 7 May 2018 17: 44
    0
    Quote: raw174
    Quote: sib.ataman
    Many times already wrote komenty about the urgent need for an ideological platform!

    You can write as much as you like about the need, but are there any suggestions? What ideology do you see in Russia? maybe Chu-chhe?
    1. sarissa
      sarissa 7 May 2018 18: 11
      0
      I would like to draw the attention of the forum members to world history. Strong states were created by free communes in the past. I emphasize, free communes. Egypt was created by Tutmos and Ramses, Macedonia Alexander, England, and Osman Turkey. They also gave the agrarian impulse of the Russian Empire. "... Russia is special to become ..."
      1. Vasilenko Vladimir
        Vasilenko Vladimir 7 May 2018 21: 38
        0
        Quote: sarissa
        I emphasize, free community members. Egypt created Thutmose and Ramses, Macedonia Alexander, England Edward, Turkey Osman they created

        created it all the SLAVES
  27. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 7 May 2018 20: 15
    +1
    Quote: 210ox
    Yes, and a lieutenant’s bag of shops from the German MP .... Yes, and the MP itself is in the hands ... But this is not so important. Maybe it's time to introduce an article for distorting the truth?

    This is a trophy weapon. In 1941, it was very common among ours. They then abandoned their borders ..
  28. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 7 May 2018 20: 16
    +2
    Quote: sarissa
    I would like to draw the attention of the forum members to world history. Strong states were created by free communes in the past. I emphasize, free communes. Egypt was created by Tutmos and Ramses, Macedonia Alexander, England, and Osman Turkey. They also gave the agrarian impulse of the Russian Empire. "... Russia is special to become ..."

    That's just the Russian Empire was then small, and everything else was Tartaria ... laughing tongue wassat
  29. Old26
    Old26 7 May 2018 22: 36
    +3
    Quote: VeteranVSSSR
    Personally, I also think that just living witnesses of that terrible war are no longer alive, but direct participation ...

    Well, your conclusion, Gennady, is also not true. You draw a conclusion on your specific example. There are still veterans, but there are few of them left, but they are.
  30. kvs207
    kvs207 9 May 2018 07: 38
    +1
    Quote: parusnik
    depicted on it is a lieutenant of the Red Army
    - Shot from the film "Hot Snow" ... Already a plus, maybe the authors watched this film ...

    You are mistaken. This is a frame from some modern crafts.
  31. Rostislav
    Rostislav 9 May 2018 19: 31
    0
    Until the Constitution, which enshrines the lack of ideology, changes, nothing will change. And there a lot of things written under the dictation of penguins need to be changed
  32. Victorio
    Victorio 10 May 2018 00: 10
    0
    Quote: Vard
    The truth is that now the celebration of the anniversary of the great victory has turned into a show ...

    ----
    time such that around the celebration of Victory Day, someone makes a show / turns it into a show, but their / such not most. let's hope that this will continue!
  33. AleBors
    AleBors 11 May 2018 10: 29
    0
    We have a serious omission in terms of propaganda ... Yes, and the cultural level too .. not too much. The second follows from the first. Freedom is ... Freedom of irresponsibility ...