Military Review

And Morion, and the Cabinet

94
As you know, the shape of the helmet to protect the head was created even not for centuries - for thousands of years. And during this time, people have come up with many different types of "cover for the head." However, no matter how hard they try, at the heart of the helmet there always has been and will remain a kind of container, which closes its part. It is clear that a helmet can cover both the neck, and the back of the head, and the face. But ... he can not close his eyes, this is, firstly, and secondly, in the helmet must be holes for breathing. Over time, the basic forms of helmets were developed: hemispherical (with and without fields), spheroconic (with or without a visor, with or without a face mask) and cylindrical, again with or without a mask. The last helmet is a well-known tophelm, derived from the helmet-pill and was a popular helmet for knights. Well, hemispherical helmets became the basis for the servilera's cap-on helmet, on the basis of which the Bundhugel, bascinet or “dog's helmet” appeared. Moreover, his popularity was very high. For example, in one 1389 document of the year it was written: "Dog muzzles had knights and soldiers, citizens and armed people."


And Morion, and the Cabinet

1. Morion is the most famous helmet of the Renaissance and the New Age. No film about that time is complete without soldiers with such helmets on their heads. Frame from the film “Iron Mask” (1962 g.)


2. Morion late XVI century. depicting battle scenes of spearmen, arquebusiers and horsemen. Flanders. Copper, leather. Weight 1326 (Metropolitan Museum, New York)

The top of the development of knightly armor, as is known, was the “white armor”, which had an armor helmet, arranged so that its metal parts smoothly flowed around the head, which, however, never touched its metal anywhere. Here are just the development of firearms weapons He demanded to remove the visor from the helmet, since it was impossible to charge it in the helmet with the visor (as well as to shoot it!).


3. Morion, ca. 1600, Germany. Weight 1224, decorated with engraving. (Metropolitan Museum, New York)

This is how a bourgeonot or a burgonet, a helmet, in everything similar to arm, appeared, but with a visor in the form of a grille, or even just three rods. Such helmets, called “sweat” (“pot”) or “pot with lobster tail”, were actively used during the civil war in England and the Thirty Years War on the continent. Experts mark their oriental, that is, Oriental origin. From 1590, all oriental helmets of this type appeared under the name "shishak", and in Europe they remained until the XVII century.


4. Fully enclosed Savoyard burginot helmet approx. 1600 – 1620 Italy. Steel, leather. Weight 4562 kg. (Metropolitan Museum, New York)

But if it was a good helmet for the rider, then the infantry needed something simpler. And, of course, cheaper in cost, but just as effective.


5. In the East, for a long time, preferred helmets from the plates. For example, a Mongolian or Tibetan lamellar helmet of the XV-XVII centuries. Iron, leather. Weight 949.7 (Metropolitan Museum, New York)

This helmet has become a morion. Whether this name originated from the Spanish word Morro (meaning “cranial dome”, or “round object”) or basically had the word More (“moor”), is still unclear. It was also called the Moorish helmet, but be that as it may, it was Morion who supplanted all other types of helmets that infantrymen used in the 16th century. He appeared in France around the year 1510, was mentioned by royal ordinances of both Henry II and Charles IX, that is, between the years 1547 and 1574.


6. Morion 1575 of the year. Italy. Steel, copper, leather. Weight 1601

The first Morions were distinguished by a low dome, which had a hemispherical shape and had not a very high ridge on it. It should be noted that the ridges — initially absent from the arm — gradually began to appear. Of course, their presence made the helmet stronger and increased its protective properties. But it is not possible to typologize Morion according to the shape of its dome, as well as to gradually increase its volume. The only thing that was able to reveal that at the crest of the morion can be traced a clear tendency to its increase. True, at the end of the XVI century. A lot of Morions were made, having both a low dome and a small crest. But the general trend is still the same - the comb on the morion over time became more and more!


7. Engraved Morion well, just with a very large comb. Northern Italy, presumably Brescia. OK. 1580 - 1590 Steel, bronze, leather. Weight 1600 (Chicago Institute of Art)

In European museums, Morion has a lot of them, and their quality manufacturing suggests that they were very popular among European foot soldiers. The process of spreading the morion was very fast and ubiquitous. Its main advantage was in the open face. At the same time, two visors, in front and behind, did not give the opportunity to deliver a slashing blow from above to the holder of this helmet. In addition, the comb gave him such strength that it could not be cut with a transverse blow.

Even the most senior officers, including colonels, and even the generals themselves, used Morion. At the same time they put it on in the battle against the infantry. These helmets were often gilded, decorated with carvings and with a lush feather sultan. Morion could usually protect from an arquebus bullet, and his average weight could be about two kilograms.


8. Morion of the Duke of Saxon Christian I's guardsmen, ca. 1580. The work of the master Hans Mikel (Germany, 1539 -1599), Nuremberg. (Chicago Institute of the Arts)

Morion wore not only soldiers. They were worn, for example, by the papal guard, as well as officers - lieutenants and captains who commanded pikemen. And we have reached a truly luxurious specimens, which can not but arouse admiration for the subtlety of decoration and the variety of techniques with which they were decorated. And here we can see one amusing phenomenon, namely, the convergence of the appearance of officers and soldiers, by which a great moral and psychological unity was achieved. After all, before this, the armor of a knight and an ordinary infantryman differed as heaven and earth. But the combat technique has changed. Now both the nobleman and the peasant soldier used the same weapon and wore the same armor. It is clear that the nobles immediately tried to decorate their armor with chasing, engraving, etching, and chemical peeling. But ... the form of the same Morion did not change! And by the way, this process was not only in Europe. In Japan, helmets of the nobles of the kawari-kabuto would not have come to ordinary ashigaru to wear. But the Dzingas muskets and helmets came into service to the ashigar. So what? Not only did the samurai themselves initially not disdain to shoot from them, but then they, up to and including the shogun, also began to wear helmets of ordinary infantrymen, although in the palace of the shogun, of course, it was customary to wear old parade helmets.


9. The same helmet, side view. But already from the Cleveland Museum of Art.

But the greatest miracle of that time should be considered the unsurpassed skill of blacksmith gunsmiths who knew how to forge these “headdresses” from one piece of metal, including even a comb. Such morions are known, and they are most strikingly distinguished from coarse products made from several metal parts, connected by rivets and in addition also coated with black paint. For lovers of "conspiracy theories" such Morion is a godsend. “How was it done at that time? Even now it is impossible to repeat! ”Documents of those years for their production, naturally, are fake, but they were all made at the latest in the middle of the last century and placed in museums to increase their attendance ... And the arm, and the cabinets ... everything, everything is a fake of the past. Around solid deception and the conspiracy of historians! Speaking of cabinets ...


10. Morion cabinets 1580 Northern Italy. (Cleveland Museum of Art)

Although Morion was in all respects a helmet comfortable, and his comb gave the head good protection, technologically it was not the easiest product. And metal-consuming to the same ...


11. Morion-cabasse XVI. Italy, Steel, bronze, leather. Weight 1410 (Metropolitan Museum, New York)

Therefore, at the same time as the classic-looking morion, a hybrid appeared - the morion-cabaret, which was often also called the Spanish morion, from which it was distinguished by the fact that this helmet had no comb. The protective function of this element was compensated for by the high height of the dome and the presence of lancet outlines against which the cold weapon was powerless.


12. Equestrian 1570 - 1580 Milan. Steel, gilding, bronze, leather. Shield - rondash, diameter 55,9 cm; horse shaffron, cabinets (weight 2400 g.). (Chicago Institute of the Arts)

It should be considered that the Morion cabasset was more often used by riders than by infantrymen, because they fought with knives with which a backhand could strike a high crest and even knock it to the side. And then in cavalry they always preferred to use more compact helmets, such as, for example, burginottes.


13. Parade armor: shield and helmet morion. (Dresden Armory)


14. Parade armor: shield and helmet of a kabassset. (Dresden Armory)

Finally, in addition to this hybrid, the cabaret helmet is also known, resembling a bottle calabash gourd, from which it most likely got its name. Cabasset, or "Birnhelm", that is, in German "helmet-pear", along with Morion, became widespread in Germany.

The cabset was usually the helmet of an infantryman, both spearmen, pikemen, and archerbusier riflemen. For the latter, he was the only defense, because, because of his rather heavy equipment and weapons, they could not even afford armor. As for the musketeers, who, instead of a more or less light arquebus, a heavy musket appeared on the armament, a forket-stand was a support when firing, and a sling with cartridges, they quickly refused even cabinets, and wore wide-brimmed hats. The fact is that neither musketeers nor arquebusiers were afraid of cavalry attacks, as in the case of a cavalry attack they could always escape from her under the cover of pikiners.


15. Cheap soldier Morion. Note that the left one is made of two full-stamped halves fastened along the ridge. (Museum Meissen)


16. Very rough, but originally arranged Morion with opening headphones. (Dresden Armory)

Cabasset at the end of the XVI century. they began to produce in large numbers by the factory method, and he soon lost his best protective qualities. Having lost his ribs, and then his elongated dome shape, he turned into the very “household utensils” that he was most like, like a pot, that is, “sweat”.
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  1. Cat
    Cat 11 May 2018 06: 11
    +5
    Thank! Thanks a lot !!!
  2. igordok
    igordok 11 May 2018 06: 12
    +2
    Whether this name came from the Spanish word morro (which meant “skull dome” or “round object”) or basically had the word More (“Moor”) is still unclear.

    I, the first association of this name, had the word "death" - the notorious "Memento mori".
  3. ICT
    ICT 11 May 2018 08: 21
    +6
    I have the first association of this

    1. kalibr
      11 May 2018 11: 38
      +3
      Wow! Well, I wanted to find shots from this film, with Senor Torres - "captain DeVasco." But the first shots from the Iron Mask. And here ... such ... physiognomy! Plus to you!
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 11 May 2018 16: 36
        +4

        But these guys forgot about it ...
  4. Serge72
    Serge72 11 May 2018 08: 31
    +20
    Morion handsome helmet, association with the Spanish Conquista in America
    The history of knightly armament V. Shpakovsky did not leave indifferent, read the other day
    1. kalibr
      11 May 2018 12: 03
      +3
      Unfortunately, you got the book of the Lomonosov publishing house, and this is just “extracts from the 332-page monograph published in Germany, and this is only the text with a list of references, and also 11 pages of links in small print. But since this book is published" there, "she’s standing there" and recommending it to our citizens to recommend it would be a great shame on my part. I had to make a book in Lomonosov, and it’s only 202 pages

      You would like this one more ... It contains everything that the English wrote about armor from 1958 to 2008 for the British, Arabs, Swedes, French, Poles, Russians ...
  5. NEXUS
    NEXUS 11 May 2018 09: 11
    +4
    The article is interesting ... only I have one question on equipment ...

    How was the armor done in the 12-17 centuries in such a way that samples that had been made yesterday survived to this day?

    Someone will say that there are reproductions in museums ... well ... and then what?

    Black Maximillian Armor ...
    At the same time, they do not write under absolutely brilliant armor and helmets that this is a reproduction or a copy.
    And one more question, the details of the joints, the delicate work of drawing steel, etc., given that there were a lot of different armors, that is, we are talking about in-line production ... since you achieved such speed in the production of armors of such quality? At the same time, practically on no armor there are traces of blows, dents, etc.
    1. kalibr
      11 May 2018 11: 46
      +4
      It’s full of armor and with traces and dents and blows, so I don’t know where it came from, that they are not. Then ... When you beat a car, do you repair it? So the sovereign seniors repaired their armor, refreshed it when they went out of fashion. So it is not surprising that many look like new. But there are many remodelers, no one argues. There were remodelers of the 18 century, and the 19 and 20. In museums, armor is also cleaned and coated with special grease against corrosion. By the way, the question about the timing of manufacturing I was already asked here. Wrote a request to the Dresden Armory. But there was no answer.
      1. NEXUS
        NEXUS 11 May 2018 11: 50
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        When you beat a car, do you repair it?

        You did not answer a number of my questions ... first, given the quality of the armor and the lightness and thoughtfulness of all the joints, explain how these armors were made on such an industrial scale in the 12-17 centuries.
        Second, did they know what stainless steel is in the 12th century?
        And third, show me where on this armor there are signs of hammering.
        1. kalibr
          11 May 2018 16: 27
          +2
          And in the 12 century there were no plate armor, the helmets of the time that they find are solid rust! Here were articles about expensive helmets ... And how do I show you the signs of hammering? How do you imagine that? More engraving - back and forth. There are descriptions of the signs of damage ... Do I need them in English to give them to you or translated?
          1. NEXUS
            NEXUS 11 May 2018 16: 29
            0
            Quote: kalibr
            I like them in English to give them to you or translated?

            Uh, no ... I’m like in a joke, don’t blame me, you show me a finger.
            1. kalibr
              11 May 2018 16: 55
              +2
              Then go to Graz, there is such a city, or to Malta. There are arsenals open to the public. Explain to them what and why, and look for traces of the hammer and everything else. There are a lot of armor that went to battle too. It is possible in the Hermitage ... but knowing our mores and customs ... I do not advise.
              1. NEXUS
                NEXUS 11 May 2018 17: 09
                0
                Quote: kalibr
                It is possible in the Hermitage ...

                I was ... I didn’t see. I suspect that this is a remake. But again, it was one thing in the 18th century, or in the 19th. I think there is a difference. Besides, after all, many blacksmith technologies, modern blacksmiths are not able to repeat . I once talked with a blacksmith and asked him about it. He replied that literally-modern blacksmiths in comparison with blacksmiths of antiquity (12-17th century) are unskilled apprentices.
                And also I asked him about the volumes of what was forged. He clearly replied that it was almost industrial production. And from his answers I had even more questions, some of which I ask. hi
                1. kalibr
                  11 May 2018 21: 20
                  +1
                  Yes, it was almost industrial production. What surprises you? And do not suspect anything. For each armor there is a passport, who, when ... the results of the examinations. An expert may suspect. You cannot suspect anything, since you confuse A. Nevsky's “helmet” with Misha Romanov’s shishak. And the last - "I did not see ...". Do you know where to look, what details to pay attention to, traces of what to look for? So leave this to specialists.
                  1. NEXUS
                    NEXUS 11 May 2018 21: 33
                    0
                    Quote: kalibr
                    Yes, it was almost industrial production. What surprises you?

                    I've been talking about this for 17 posts here. If you carefully read my posts, then see for yourself. Moreover, the quality is much higher than modern smiths.
                    Quote: kalibr
                    You cannot suspect anything, since you confuse A. Nevsky's “helmet” with Misha Romanov’s shishak.

                    Again you do not understand me. The essence of my questions comes down to this ..
                    Firstly, was it all so primitive in ancient times that the blacksmiths did not know what alloys were, they made armor piece-wise and slowly.
                    You said it was an industrial scale. So?
                    The second one. Even if remodelers are in museums, when were they produced? It's one thing in the 17th century (say armor of the 15th century) or in the 20th century. The technological level is different.
                    Third ... the armor was heavy. 10 minutes to vilify this one, and if they were worn for a long time, and even fought in it. The question, from a physical point of view, could this be? I understand that this is a naive question, but it seems to me that even a 15th century warrior was hard, and maybe beyond his strength.
                    Hence the last question, could this armor be just like decoration for say castles and not carry any military function? That is, were the knights fighting in something else, easier and more practical in reality?
        2. Weyland
          Weyland 12 May 2018 19: 01
          +4
          Quote: NEXUS
          Second, did they know what stainless steel is in the 12th century?

          Stainless - no. But the so-called weatherproof - able to 4000 years ago. The same dagger of Tutankhamun and the Delhi column. Pure iron almost does not rust, corrosion is caused by an admixture of sulfur - and it, with a content above 0,01%, causes the so-called. red brittleness. Nowadays, red breaking is prevented by the addition of manganese - therefore, they allow 0,02-0,03% sulfur, but steel with manganese rusts even faster (I can explain why - if you are a professional chemist, write in a personal email). But in ancient times they simply got rid of sulfur: they buried a piece of iron for several years in a swamp ... Of course, there was also know-how: if the sour piece of iron is annealed, red-hot and grated with a hammer, it crumbles into iron "sand", which has all the sulfur - on the surface, and it can be removed by corrosion quickly and with small (only 10%) metal losses. Particularly effective (except for jokes) good Wolund smith's way, but this is for the very disdainful! laughing
      2. NEXUS
        NEXUS 11 May 2018 12: 30
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        When you beat a car, do you repair it? So the sovereign seniors repaired their armor

        A very good example. When you hit an armor or a car, a dent is formed ... how is this dent removed (repaired) today? If possible, they are straightened to the ideal, and then putty is applied and ground. Show me the traces of putty on the armor, maybe the armor is perfect.
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 11 May 2018 12: 10
      +10
      Quote: NEXUS
      How was the armor done in the 12-17 centuries in such a way that samples that had been made yesterday survived to this day?

      A dozen years ago or more, I don’t remember, they decided to restore an angel in St. Petersburg - a weather vane on top of the Peter and Paul spire. They announced a competition for the creation of a mounting method - so that it rotated from the wind, did not skew, so that it was simple and technologically. At the same time, somewhere in the archives, they found the drawings of the original fixture, more than a hundred years old. Modern engineers with the help of all available technical means, computers and materials have created several fastening projects, but as a result, the archive project won the competition as the simplest and most reliable.
      As a result, we have the following: modern engineers could not surpass the engineers of the mid-XIX century. Is it possible to conclude from this, for example, that in fact there was no angel on the steeple and it was secretly made in one of Stalin's sharashkas, for example, in the “Crosses” in 1938, hoisted on the spire in 1946, after war and forged all documents, including drawings, prints, photos, to confuse the head of historians?
    3. Curious
      Curious 11 May 2018 12: 49
      +9
      Well, you posted a photo of the remake, and ask a question about old armor.
      Samples of knightly armor until the sixteenth century remained a few units. Experts from the Department of Culture of Great Britain have only three complete sets of lats at the turn of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, although this is conditional, since one of these sets - the armor belonging to the famous Franconian knight Kunz Schott von Hellingen, causes controversy both in terms of belonging and content. There are dents on it. and damage. And museums never hide that the kit, for example, is prefabricated or contains a “remake”. This is impossible in principle, since all this is a subject of increased attention and at the auctions items of medieval equipment are worth astronomical amounts.
      There is also enough information on production technology and guilds of gunsmiths. In addition, there are many reconstructors - blacksmiths who make armor in accordance with the technology of the Middle Ages, including in Russia. Visit the "St. George's Tournament" - you will learn a lot of interesting things.
      Just focus on specialized literature and not on the opuses of folklorists and newchronologists.
      In general, one must approach the search for answers to such questions from the position of a desire to find an answer, and not from the position of an unbeliever Thomas, whose main argument - I do not understand. How can I do that. Go to the blacksmith and try. Believe me, after a year of work under the guidance of an experienced blacksmith, through sweat and calluses you have many current nonsense will fly out of your head.
      1. Mikado
        Mikado 11 May 2018 12: 57
        +6
        well, by the way, the eastern helmets in the Hermitage, the richest of them - all of the 19th century. Specially made as a gift. hi
      2. NEXUS
        NEXUS 11 May 2018 13: 00
        0
        Quote: Curious
        Well, you posted a photo of the remake, and ask a question about old armor.

        Dear, I just provided a photo from the museum, where it is written in black and white-armor-13 century. Not a copy, but the original armor of that era.
        Quote: Curious
        There is also enough information on production technology and guilds of gunsmiths. In addition, there are many reconstructors - blacksmiths who make armor in accordance with the technology of the Middle Ages, including in Russia. Visit the "St. George's Tournament" - you will learn a lot of interesting things.

        I read literature and studied this subject in the internet ...
        I repeat, tell my dear, and with what kind of pastry, the blacksmiths and gunsmiths of ancient times provided in such quantities armor, weapons, arrowheads (which should be enough), and still having time to repair damaged equipment ... while still managing to forge horseshoes, fencing, and other? The question is simple and has nothing to do with new chronology.
        In addition, I asked a question below ... remodelers often make aluminum. Now put on steel armor, say two millimeters thick, (this is about 60-70 kg), and just walk in them for about a week. At the same time, hold a sword and a shield in your hands, and at least wave it, I'm not talking about fights. I wonder how much you have.
        1. Curious
          Curious 11 May 2018 13: 34
          +10
          "Dear, I just provided a photo from the museum, where the 13th century armor is written in black and white"
          Please indicate the name of the museum, which under the Milanese armor wrote the XIII century, as well as the date of its visit.
          It would also be desirable to know your basic education and the successes achieved on its basis.
          1. Mikado
            Mikado 11 May 2018 13: 38
            +5
            By the way, yes. This is the age of 15-16 should probably be what I didn’t pay attention to the date! hi
            1. Curious
              Curious 11 May 2018 13: 47
              +9
              The end of XIV is in theory. Almost the earliest in museum displays - 1410 - 1415 in the guildhouse of the castle of Hurburg, in Austria, i.e. beginning of the XNUMXth century. Therefore, when a person under Milanese armor writes that he was designated in the museum in the XNUMXth century, and then writes that he studied literature on this issue, an apparent discrepancy is obtained. Either the literature is wrong, or he studied poorly.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 11 May 2018 14: 07
                +4
                Viktor Nikolaevich, remember, six months ago, we discussed the cost of ordinary ordinary armor (I still went with the content of shillings in the pound)? You quoted an excerpt from a document from the beginning of the 16th century (?). The contract under which the London guild of gunsmiths was taken to offend the city guard. The quantity of products was indicated there. It seems that they did not forget about the deadlines either. I mean, this is a good example of the speed of continuous production in the Middle Ages.
                1. Curious
                  Curious 11 May 2018 14: 26
                  +4
                  This question has already been clarified many times. There are simply two categories of non-believers. Some unrestrainedly believe in the great accomplishments of distant ancestors, while others do not uncontrollably believe in them.
                  So the Nexus, instead of finding the nearest re-enactor and watching how the forged helmets are made on a slipper, beats in hysteria that he does not understand this - how? For a very long time they persistently strike the supporting instrument with a percussion instrument. That’s the whole secret.
                  1. NEXUS
                    NEXUS 11 May 2018 16: 34
                    0
                    Quote: Curious
                    So the Nexus, instead of finding the nearest re-enactor and watching how the forged helmets are made on a slipper, beats in hysteria that he does not understand this - how? For a very long time they persistently strike the supporting instrument with a percussion instrument. That’s the whole secret.

                    Yeah ... only when they knock for a long time and hard, the Nexus really can not understand how it was possible to produce so many armor, armor, weapons, besides, shoe horses, forge fences, gates, spare parts for carts and so on ... apparently half the world were blacksmiths. At the same time, repair armor in wars, again forge what you need and this is not a carcass. Well yes, well done.
                    1. Curious
                      Curious 11 May 2018 17: 22
                      +4
                      You still ask a question about the museum, where did you get the photo, say something?
          2. mvbmvbmvb
            mvbmvbmvb 28 March 2019 18: 07
            0
            And how much hurry up!
      3. NEXUS
        NEXUS 11 May 2018 17: 45
        0
        Quote: Curious
        Samples of knightly armor until the sixteenth century remained a few units. The full headsets of late fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, experts of the Department of Culture of Great Britain have only three sets,

        And then what can you say?

        Armor of the German Duke Johann Wilhelm, XNUMXth century

        Armor of Emperor Ferdinand I, XVI century

        Armor of King Henry VIII, XVI century

        Armor of King Henry VIII
        Also a remake?
        1. Mikado
          Mikado 11 May 2018 18: 14
          +4
          remarkably preserved ceremonial armor, which was worn five times, but kept the same apple.
        2. kalibr
          11 May 2018 21: 13
          +3
          They wrote to you before the 16 century! BEFORE! And in this armor no one ever fought! They weren’t for that ... Nobody carries to the cottage seedlings on the beaten road to Ferrari either.
          1. Curious
            Curious 11 May 2018 22: 55
            +3
            I’m thinking, maybe a person has dyscalculia? There is such a thing when a person is unable to master arithmetic.
      4. Weyland
        Weyland 12 May 2018 19: 03
        +1
        Quote: Curious
        Go to the blacksmith and try. Believe me, after a year of work under the guidance of an experienced blacksmith, through sweat and calluses you have many current nonsense will fly out of your head.

        No, blacksmithing is good for 5 years old, you need to learn ...
  6. Termit1309
    Termit1309 11 May 2018 12: 09
    +2
    But the greatest miracle of that time should be considered the unsurpassed skill of blacksmiths-gunsmiths who knew how to forge these "hats" from one piece of metal, including even a comb. Such morions are known, and they are most strikingly different from rough products from several metal parts connected by rivets and, in addition, coated with black paint. For fans of the "conspiracy theory" such morions are just a godsend. “How was this done at that time? It’s impossible to repeat even now! ”

    Human nature involuntarily prompts the falsifier to do "more correctly" than the old masters, and this superiority just betrays it. Considering plate armor, one must remember: the ancient armor was made of forged sheet; this sheet was obtained by crushing a piece of critical iron by a blacksmith’s hammer, and then it was given the desired shape, processed with flat hammers, and in some places it was hot, and in some places just hot. Therefore, there should be traces of hammers on the unpolished back side. It is easy to distinguish a modern rolling sheet by its longitudinal risks: just look through a magnifying glass and it will immediately become apparent if the rolled sheet, so that it looks like a forged sheet, has been hammered retroactively.
    Ett still Behheim once wrote about the gross production of fakes. But then a new generation of historians said: old Beheim, to put it mildly, does not understand armor.
    Can conspiracy theories grow from magnificent 19th century armor and helmets?
    1. NEXUS
      NEXUS 11 May 2018 12: 16
      +1
      Quote: Termit1309
      But the greatest miracle of that time should be considered the unsurpassed skill of blacksmiths-gunsmiths who knew how to forge these "hats" from one piece of metal, including even a comb.

      For example, have you seen Russian helmets from the time of Nevsky? Tell me, how at that time they pulled steel into a drop, so much so that not only our army provided these helmets? 100 thousand blacksmiths sat and forged day and night? But besides helmets there are armor, weapons, shields, protection for horses .. .
    2. NEXUS
      NEXUS 11 May 2018 12: 40
      0
      Quote: Termit1309
      But the greatest miracle of that time should be considered the unsurpassed skill of the blacksmiths-gunsmiths,

      Let's just count ... the weight of the knight's armor in museums is designated as 30 kg. The area of ​​armor, given that they almost completely cover the body, is about 2 m2. So that a steel sheet of 2 m2 weighs 30 kg, it should be about a millimeter thick. That is, such armor is not just a sword, you can open it with a can opener. And gunsmiths from the past made armor in such a way as to protect a person from heavy blows of swords, maces, etc. ... and therefore, the thickness of the steel should be greater, respectively, and the mass of armor will increase by several times. Now put on such armor and run about it for a week , and even wave the nifig with a light sword. Historically, it is said that knights had been out of armor for months.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 11 May 2018 13: 08
        +5
        Do not mislead people with approximate calculations. The mass of the iron sheet is 2 mm thick and 2 square meters. m. is 31, 2 kg. This is more than enough to cover the entire human body, for with a mass of 70 kg. its area is 1, 817 square meters. m. (See the Dubois formula). Pure physics and nothing more. Or are physicists also "all lying"?
        1. NEXUS
          NEXUS 11 May 2018 13: 14
          0
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          Do not mislead people with approximate calculations. The mass of the iron sheet is 2 mm thick and 2 square meters. m. is 30,2 kg. This is more than enough to cover the entire human body, for with a mass of 70 kg. its area is 1, 817 square meters. m. (See the Dubois formula). Pure physics and nothing more. Or are physicists also "all lying"?

          I won’t even argue ... let's say 30 kg. I repeat, put on steel armor weighing 30 kg, pick up a sword and shield, and just walk around with this all for a week, without taking off. Historically, they say that the knights did not take off their armor for weeks, months.
          And then tell us your feelings.
          1. Mikado
            Mikado 11 May 2018 13: 24
            +3
            Historically, they say that the knights did not take off their armor for weeks, months.

            for some reason it seems to me that they dressed in full armor just before the battle. Moreover, the knight was never alone, he was accompanied by a crowd of squires and servants. The armor laid out by you, Andrey, seems to be tournament?
            1. NEXUS
              NEXUS 11 May 2018 13: 30
              0
              Quote: Mikado
              for some reason it seems to me that they dressed in full armor just before the battle.

              No, not like that. In the campaigns, the knights did not take off their armor for a simple reason, so that they could already be in them during a sudden attack. Wear such armor when you have dubious pleasure and time consuming. Therefore, the knights did not remove them for weeks, or even for months.
              Quote: Mikado
              The armor laid out by you, Andrey, seems to be tournament?

              I can’t say this ... the equipment of a knight, with a sword, shield, etc. weighs decently. Here, with a full calculation of 25 km with a full load, commandos run and not everyone gets to the finish line. And there they dragged it for weeks, and even fought for it.
              1. Mikado
                Mikado 11 May 2018 13: 36
                +4
                I can’t say this ... the equipment of a knight, with a sword, shield, etc. weighs decently.

                I think tournament after all. what Hook for a spear, additional shields and, excuse me, a kind of “nonsense” (you will be poked in the ass with a tournament spear!)laughing such a work of art was really stored as a relic, and we may not even notice the traces of the repair - we are not a half meter away from it! request Yes, and put on such armor once a year for a couple of hours! hi
              2. Weyland
                Weyland 12 May 2018 19: 11
                +2
                Quote: NEXUS
                in order to be already in them during a sudden attack

                In fact, even a flock of chimpanzees has the concept of "military guard." His task is precisely to detain a sudden attacking enemy in order to enable the main army to prepare for battle. They couldn’t remove the chain mail for months, but full-plate is unreal!
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 11 May 2018 13: 43
            +5
            And it is not necessary to equate the mental development of a medieval man with “historians” who claim this. No, of course, there were similar cases, especially at the peak of the fashionable trend of "giving vows", but they are an exception. The ancestors appreciated the comfort and convenience no less than ours. And further. You, the builder, decided to scare 30kg? A couple of tons of “loose” on the fifth floor - and now, at 45, in the meantime, I will not sweat. And 15 years ago, in general, running.
            1. Curious
              Curious 11 May 2018 13: 58
              +5
              "A couple of tons of" granularity "on the fifth floor - and now at 45, in the meantime, I will not sweat."
              Earlier, I suppose, they carried over a couple of times, but now you have to walk four times?
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 11 May 2018 14: 41
                +5
                No, the number of walkers has not changed (I'm still not a loader from Petrovich, I have a different qualification), the time has slightly increased.
            2. NEXUS
              NEXUS 11 May 2018 14: 04
              0
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              And it is not necessary to equate the mental development of a medieval man with “historians” who claim this.

              I am talking about traditional history. How it is presented is a special question. And there are many questions for her.
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              You, the builder, decided to scare 30kg?

              Well, scare not to scare ... and with a 30 kg bag a couple of weeks without putting it on the ground to walk like? And even protect some dulcein from hooligans, again without putting the bag on the ground?
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 11 May 2018 14: 36
                +3
                You know, I haven’t had a car for a very long time, and before that, equipment from one object to another has its own hump. There was a case about ten years ago. I’m going to the subway with installation of engineering plumbing, steamed to the state of “carcass”. On the shoulder is a bag “the occupier’s dream”, in it are the required 30 kg of “iron”. "Peak hour". Opposite is a man, my age, with a girl. Apparently, he decided to show his "correctness" to his companion, starting to excite what kind of demon I wouldn’t put on my floor. Well, I led with a shoulder, the bag on his sneakers and fell. The tone of excitations passed into the category of sobbing.
                As for the protection of Dulcinea, the spring for bending the "metal plate" once helped out a lot ...
              2. Hantengri
                Hantengri 11 May 2018 23: 59
                +4
                Quote: NEXUS
                Well, scare not scare ... and with a 30 kg bag a couple of weeks without putting it on the ground like?

                Have you tried climbing? Not? 5-7 thousand nm the same 30-40 kg per hump + oxygen starvation + very rough terrain and from dawn to dusk ... You try! Very nice little thing! laughing Well, or, at least, mountaineering ... In addition, the armor is much more anthropomorphic than a backpack. And, yes, I almost forgot: THE KNIGHT WAS NOT MOVED BY Pawn! laughing
          3. Weyland
            Weyland 12 May 2018 19: 08
            +3
            Quote: NEXUS
            I repeat, put on steel armor weighing 30 kg, pick up a sword and shield, and just walk around with this all for a week, without taking off.

            Talk to advanced recons - the first day and an hour do not hold out, and after a month of daily training - I will not say “week” (and where did you get it?), And full daylight!
      2. Weyland
        Weyland 12 May 2018 19: 06
        +3
        Quote: NEXUS
        So that a steel sheet of 2 m2 weighs 30 kg, it should be about a millimeter thick

        Sucks with math! stop Not 1, but almost 2 millimeters (15 kg / m2 with a steel density of 7,8 g / cm3)
  7. Termit1309
    Termit1309 11 May 2018 13: 30
    +2
    Quote: NEXUS
    For example, have you seen Russian helmets from the time of Nevsky? Tell me, how at that time they pulled steel into a drop, so much so that not only our army provided these helmets?

    Nobody ever provided the entire army. Princes and several warriors. The rest managed the defense easier.
  8. Curious
    Curious 11 May 2018 13: 55
    +3
    "... and chemical collapse."
    This meant, obviously, chemical staining, or bluing - burnishing.
  9. Termit1309
    Termit1309 11 May 2018 14: 03
    +4
    Quote: NEXUS
    And then tell us your feelings.

    Full armor never wore. In 90, as a young man, he went to reenactors. Sparing in chain mail with a sweatshop (sewn from a regular padded jacket) and a helmet made an unforgettable impression. A bucket of sweat for 10 minutes. Once in the summer, he scored on the rules and put chain mail on a regular flannel shirt. Caught in a simple hoax, he raised the shield too high and got it in the kidney. It was very painful. Since then he endured both a padded jacket and heat and sweat.
    Then, after many years, I heard from a very authoritative English historian that they say that in the old days people were stronger and the Roman legionnaires put light toga under chain mail. Shredded people sad
    1. Mikado
      Mikado 11 May 2018 14: 12
      +6
      and got a kidney. It was very painful

      I'm sorry scraper, first read "in the ass" drinks for heroism - respect. I hope all without consequences. In Russia, the sub-shell, like, was called a kuyak. what
      Roman legionnaires dressed in light toga dressed in toga

      I think then the tactics were different, and the Romans fought in formation, they weren’t wearing armor, but the shield and formation were more important! drinks somehow, on some historical channel, a movie about the Romans was watched - they say, they got additional metal bands crosswise on their helmets after the war with the Dacians. The Dacians were often armed with falses, and could beat the Romans on the heads over shields. request
      phew .. guys .. for once you can normally discuss the article, without slogans and abuse! Expensive! good drinks
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 11 May 2018 14: 56
        +5
        "And do not go, nasty, to our kindergarten!" (replica from another section of the site) laughing
        1. Mikado
          Mikado 11 May 2018 18: 17
          +3
          "And do not go, nasty, to our kindergarten!" (replica from another section of the site) laughing

          gradually turning into flooded crowing. laughing drinks what a blessing it is that when such armor ceased to be made, some thinkers have not yet been born! good
      2. hohol95
        hohol95 11 May 2018 16: 24
        +6

        Nobody would wish to "rake" such a thing ...
        1. Mikado
          Mikado 11 May 2018 16: 31
          +3
          exactly, Alexey! good drinks
        2. Weyland
          Weyland 12 May 2018 19: 16
          +1
          Quote: hohol95
          Nobody would wish to "rake" such a thing ...

          Thracian Romphea, which the Romans called "falx")? Cool stuff!
          1. hohol95
            hohol95 12 May 2018 23: 06
            +1
            Thracian tribes (about 200 ethnonyms [9]) were very numerous and lived on the territory of the modern Balkan Peninsula and parts of Asia Minor.
            Thrace (Bulgaria and European Turkey)
            Dacia (Romania)
            Bithynia (northwestern Anatolia)
            Mysia (northwestern Anatolia)
            Dacians (lat. Daci) - a group of Thracian tribes. The central area of ​​Dacian settlement was located north of the lower Danube (in the territory of modern Romania and Moldova). Dacians are known to the ancient Greeks from the 715th century BC. e [source not specified XNUMX days], and well described due to their wars with the Romans.

          2. hohol95
            hohol95 12 May 2018 23: 18
            +1
            But there was also Sika - a short sword or dagger, which was used by the ancient Thracians and Dacians, as well as gladiators in Ancient Rome. Initially, it looked like a curved sword with a blade about 40-45 cm long. Many specimens were found in what is now Romania, Bosnia, Bulgaria, and Serbia.
            The characteristic curved shape of the blade was designed to bypass the opponent’s shield and hit him in the back or side.
            These blades were armed with Thracian gladiators and, in particular, the famous SPARTAK -
            Following these nine pairs, thirty pairs of gladiators marched: thirty fighters had to fight on each side, as if repeating a real battle in small sizes. Thirty of them were Thracians, the other thirty were Samnites; all are beautiful and young, tall, strong and courageous people.
            The proud Thracians were armed with short, crooked swords; in their hands they had small square shields with a convex surface, on their heads - helmets without visor; it was their national armament. They were all in short bright red tunics, two black feathers fluttering on their helmets. Thirty Samnites had the armaments of the warriors of the people of Samnia: a short straight sword, a small closed helmet with wings, a small square shield and an iron handcuff covering his right arm, not protected by a shield, and, finally, a knee pad that protected his left leg. The Samnites were in blue tunics, with white feathers fluttering on their helmets.

            Title: Spartak
            Posted by: Giovagnoli Rafaelo
      3. Weyland
        Weyland 12 May 2018 19: 15
        +1
        Quote: Mikado
        In Russia, the sub-shell, like a kuyak, was called

        Actually, the 1st letter is a little different laughing , and this word is purely Mongolian.
        1. Mikado
          Mikado 12 May 2018 19: 43
          +1
          Actually, the first letter there is a little different laughing, and this word is purely Mongolian.

          but we will not pronounce it! drinks yes, mongolian hi
    2. NEXUS
      NEXUS 11 May 2018 14: 47
      0
      Quote: Termit1309
      Shredded people

      It’s possible that it’s so ... you say, in 10 minutes a bucket of sweat .... and if you don’t take it off for a week, I’m not going to explain everything simply by grinding people. hi
  10. Termit1309
    Termit1309 11 May 2018 14: 36
    +4
    Quote: Mikado
    I think then the tactics were different, and the Romans fought in formation, they weren’t wearing armor, but the shield and formation were more important!

    I think that the Celtic sword was not much lighter than the birch training drina, which Igor stroked my friend with.
    1. Mikado
      Mikado 11 May 2018 14: 56
      +3
      so the fact of the matter is that he stroked your armor and not your shield wink I think (I can be wrong!), the Romans had all the tactics on a closed system of shields based, the armor played a role, as a "means of last hope." what And from Igor - cognac! drinks
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 11 May 2018 15: 00
      +1
      I flew into the bridge of the nose with the edge of the shield, broke again. On this my reconstruction was over.
  11. Termit1309
    Termit1309 11 May 2018 14: 57
    +2
    Quote: NEXUS
    I mean, that simply by chopping up the people you can’t explain everything here.

    That was sarcasm. I think that the Romans were no more stupid than us.
    And the answer to your question in my opinion lies on the surface. If the threat of writing with blood pampered by the civilization of your contemporary made you put on an extra load, then life was at stake for any resident of the Middle Ages. Or painful death, or worse - mutilation. A 15-20kg armor and modern professionals carry + ammunition.
  12. Curious
    Curious 11 May 2018 15: 23
    +4
    Question to the Nexus. Andrey, what, in your opinion, unites the Statue of Liberty described in the article by Morion? and the sculpture group "Worker and Collective Farm Girl"?
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 11 May 2018 15: 37
      +4
      Surely Mukhina did everything ?! Nekrasov was right, there are WOMEN (!!!) in Russian villages! laughing
      1. Curious
        Curious 11 May 2018 17: 35
        +7
        No, combining their differentiation (drift). Just with the help of differentiation helmets, shields, armor, boilers and many other things were made. Phidias and Polyect turned to her when they decorated their sculptures with golden robes. In pre-revolutionary Russia and in Western Europe in the XVIII and XIX centuries. the drift was used quite widely and had special names: the technique of “beaten copper” and “forged copper”. It was also called a “knockout" or technique of "repussing." The sculpture was molded from red copper and mounted on welded steel frames - like a statue of Liberty.
        The two-figure composition “Worker and Collective Farm Girl” according to the model of the sculptor V. I. Mukhina is also made using this technology, but from stainless steel.
        One could write an article, so the Nexus will not believe it.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 11 May 2018 17: 43
          +2
          I basically assumed the answer. Are the frames welded in both cases? After all, bolted joints hold deformation loads better than welded ones ...
          1. Curious
            Curious 11 May 2018 18: 07
            +4
            Statue of Liberty - 1877. It's too early for the svrka. Designed the Eiffel frame.
            According to "Worker and Collective Farm Girl" it is necessary to clarify where are some connections. After all, it is collapsible, because it was taken to Paris and collected there in 11 days. And the sheets were cooked, for sure. Unique welding machine P.N. Lvov was created by the chief engineer of the TsNIITMASH experimental plant.
            Interesting thing. Also great material for the article.
        2. NEXUS
          NEXUS 11 May 2018 18: 23
          0
          Quote: Curious
          One could write an article, so the Nexus will not believe it.

          You understood me very wrongly. The matter is not in disbelief, dear Victor, but in some questions, to which I have not even received a clear answer from you.
          1. Curious
            Curious 11 May 2018 19: 38
            +8
            Andrey, don’t be offended, but you raise questions that are almost impossible to answer in the commentary frames, especially since you still haven’t answered the question about your basic education, which also matters. If you are not familiar with the technology of bifurcation, obviously you are far from metalworking issues. Agricola's description of only medieval mining and metallurgy required twelve books.
            When asked what books you studied, they also did not give an answer. But your questions affect not only the history of pure metallurgy, but also the history of technology in general and the history of economics. On your questions, it seems that you represent medieval metallurgy as the craft of village blacksmiths, which cannot be true, especially during the times described in today's article.
            Therefore, the answer to all these questions in the form of comments you will not receive from anyone, I can assure you. Here it is necessary to tune constructively and work with the primary sources.
  13. kalibr
    11 May 2018 16: 32
    +4
    Quote: NEXUS
    Dear, I just provided a photo from the museum, where it is written in black and white-armor-13 century. Not a copy, but the original armor of that era.

    In the 13 century there were no Maximilian armor! Here are the years of the life of Emperor Maximilian I: 22 March 1459 - 12 January 1519.
  14. kalibr
    11 May 2018 16: 34
    +3
    Quote: NEXUS
    say two millimeters, (this is about 60-70 kg)

    This has never happened! Here was my article ABOUT ALL KNIGHTLY SUCCESSES - look ...
    1. NEXUS
      NEXUS 11 May 2018 17: 14
      0
      Quote: kalibr
      Here was my article ABOUT ALL KNIGHTLY SUCCESSES - look ...

      Already ... even with your numbers, it does not fit ... I say, put on yourself 30 kg of steel, take a sword, shield and walk without taking a week off ... I repeat, without taking off ... and then you can talk about weight and about the veracity of history.
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 11 May 2018 17: 15
      +5
      Mmdaa, all this discussion once again reminds me of a joke:
      Mid 90s. Antique store. The seller is a dry old man with a beard "a la Kalinin." "Brothers" tumble into the store
      -Hey, old, we are your roof. The “daddy” will soon have a “birthday”, well, we rubbed it with a brother and decided to give him something for his hobby to give. And his hobbies are rare musical instruments. Do you have a pricing?
      - Of course, young people, here, the Steinway piano, the end of the last century ...
      -No, he already has a couple
      -That's Duke Eltington's saxophone ...
      -Not last year, Clinton sent him the same
      The old man is at a loss and fear from possible troubles. Suddenly it dawns on him and he hides in the back room. After some time, he takes out a drum of a completely “pioneer” kind
      -Young people, in the 18th century, in Italy, the great master Stradivarius lived. This is the drum of his work.
      - What are you, old, are you driving the “empty” here?!?!? Everyone knows that Stradivarius did violins!
      The old man suddenly transforms:
      -Not, lads! He made violins for suckers, and for real boys - drums !!!
      1. Curious
        Curious 11 May 2018 17: 36
        +5
        And when the real boys doubted something, he knocked on this drum.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 11 May 2018 17: 40
          +3
          Something comes to real boys when they knock "on a tambourine."
          1. Curious
            Curious 11 May 2018 18: 09
            +6
            Yes, no, just when the regulars of the sections "News" and "Opinions" fly into the "History", they go nuts. How many new and unfamiliar that you can’t believe. Everything is simple there - "gygy - gaga" and "gaga - gygy". And here is a lot of incomprehensible.
      2. Weyland
        Weyland 12 May 2018 19: 21
        +1
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        He made violins for suckers, and for real boys - drums !!!

        Sorted out a joke invented by professional musicians - and lost all the salt! stop It was not about Stradivarius, but about Amati - because now there really is an Amati company that produces concert drums! laughing
  15. kalibr
    11 May 2018 16: 38
    +2
    Quote: NEXUS
    For example, have you seen Russian helmets from the time of Nevsky?

    Do they have these helmets? Show me at least one so that I know how they look! AT LEAST ONE !!!
    1. NEXUS
      NEXUS 11 May 2018 18: 18
      0
      Quote: kalibr
      Show me at least one so that I know how they look! AT LEAST ONE !!!


      helmet of Yaroslav Vsevolodovich · helmet from the village of Nikolskoye ..

      Shishak Tsar Mikhail Romanov. The Armory of the Moscow Kremlin. Master. N. Davydov. 1613-1639. Iron, leather. Forging, gold notch, riveting.


      The Russian mirror of the XNUMXth century is exhibited here, the lower part of which is entirely covered with Arabic inscriptions ..
  16. kalibr
    11 May 2018 16: 40
    +3
    Quote: NEXUS
    No, not like that. In the campaigns, the knights did not take off their armor for a simple reason, so that they could already be in them during a sudden attack. Wear such armor when you have dubious pleasure and time consuming. Therefore, the knights did not remove them for weeks, or even for months.

    Where does this nonsense come from? The source of this nonsense? Link to the source? And then I recently delved into the "War of the Roses". What just did not have to shovel ... but this marvel did not stumble ...
  17. kalibr
    11 May 2018 16: 45
    +3
    Quote: NEXUS
    .and if a week without taking off to drag? I mean that simply by grinding people here you can’t explain everything.

    Where did you get about the weeks?
  18. kalibr
    11 May 2018 16: 50
    +3
    Quote: NEXUS
    I’m just a photo from the museum

    What museum?
  19. kalibr
    11 May 2018 19: 32
    +3
    Quote: NEXUS
    Shishak Tsar Mikhail Romanov. The Armory of the Moscow Kremlin. Master. N. Davydov. 1613-1639. Iron, leather. Forging, gold notch, riveting.

    What does IT have to do with A. Nevsky? He lived: 1221 - 1263.
    As for the helmet of Yaroslav, we must carefully read the article: its rust ate so much that the remaining three fragments can not be determined by the manufacturing technology. So what are you talking about?
  20. kalibr
    11 May 2018 21: 13
    +2
    Also a remake? [/ Quote]
    They wrote to you before the 16th century
  21. NF68
    NF68 13 May 2018 15: 20
    0
    Interesting article.
  22. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 14 May 2018 17: 58
    0
    Both the article and the comments are very informative. good