Made in Ukraine - the project of a rocket multifunctional complex of the modular type "Sapsan"

71
In 2011, the military department of Ukraine stated that the military budget allows it to purchase 10 units of domestic tanks Oplot, modernize 24 tanks to the Bulat level, modernize and repair 21 aircraft, five helicopters, 40 engines for aircraft, more than 600 units of ground equipment. In addition, money in the amount of 430 million hryvnias was allocated for the creation of the Haiduk type corvette, 345 million hryvnias for the construction of the An-70 transporter, 205 million hryvnias for the creation of a single automated control system of the Armed Forces and 105 million hryvnias for the multifunctional Sapsan RK of a modular type. This is practically the first time in many years when Ukraine has invested significant money in the creation and purchase of weapons.

Creating a multifunctional OTRK "Sapsan" begins in the 2006 year, when the NSDC decides on the start of construction of a wide-range domestic missile system. However, there was virtually no funding for the project, and only in 2009, the developers received almost 7 million dollars for the draft design. Most of these funds were transferred to Yuzhnoye Design Office, a smaller part of the NSAU as the project coordinator. Tests of the newest Ukrainian complex “Sapsan” were scheduled for 2013 year, but due to the underfunding in the last three years, the test dates are gradually postponed. According to the NSAU General Director, if today there is enough money to complete the development of Sapsan, we are talking about the amount of 450 million dollars, the Ukrainian armed forces will be able to receive multifunctional missile systems in three years. The design bureau Yuzhnoye has not created such a class of complexes and missiles for them for a long time, but the power and personnel remained with which the task can be solved before the 2015-2016 of the year.

MF OTRK "Sapsan" was created on the ground from its predecessors, the projects "Thunder" and "Borysfen." Borysfen was developed by the Yuzhnoye design bureau since 1994, as a short-range and medium-range OTRK, the Thunder is practically an export-enhanced version of OTRK, operating on 80-290 kilometers. But due to the lack of funding, the lack of foreign customers, organizational and staff problems, work on these projects was stopped. Today, the designers have tried to “Sapsan” has absorbed all the best from them, and applied a number of unique technologies in the project.

Made in Ukraine - the project of a rocket multifunctional complex of the modular type "Sapsan"


Expert Opinions
V. Badrak, Director of CIAKR, a Ukrainian non-governmental research organization, stated that the creation and commissioning of the Sapsan OTRK MF will ensure an increase in the military-patriotic spirit, an increase in the moral and psychological state of the Ukrainian military personnel, since Ukraine practically did not buy domestic systems during its independence weapons.

The director of military programs, N. Sungurovsky of the Razumkov Analytical Center, has a different opinion on the creation of Sapsan, “if we don’t have foreign customers, the project will be at least unprofitable. There is no urgent need for Ukraine in such a complex ”.

A number of experts also have doubts about the need of the Ministry of Finance of the Sapsan OTRK. On the territory of Ukraine, now there is no equipped testing ground for testing, and this is, as a result, additional costs for its creation.

Editor-in-chief of the English-language Russian magazine about weapons Moscow Defense Brief suggested that Ukraine has little chance of bringing the project to production. The question is not about the designers of Yuzhnoye Design Bureau, who, under favorable conditions, can bring the project to its logical conclusion, the question is more political, because the Sapsan MF OTRK will not be convenient for Russia or NATO when it is created. And he has practically no chance to compete with the Russian OTRK Iskander, because he has already been created, is being produced, is available in the army and is constantly being improved.

Russia
In 2010, there was an alternative to the creation of the Sapsan OTRK MF - some Ukrainian officials favored the purchase of Russian Iskander-E OTRKs. This alternative is beneficial for Russia both economically and in terms of competition - after such an acquisition, there can no longer be any talk of creating such a complex with missiles. Today, Russia has a technological advantage in many areas and Ukraine can neither economically nor technologically produce and upgrade a wide range of military equipment and weapons.



NATO
NATO’s military initiatives are also not beneficial for the North Atlantic Alliance. If we take NATO, Bulgaria, Hungary and Slovakia not so long ago, then one of the conditions for their entry was the dissolution of their missile units. And the insistence of the United States on Ukraine to eliminate Scrat OTRK, according to the agreements on INF and the accession to the international MTCR, led to the fact that Ukraine scrapped Scud missile systems, which were not in principle under the signed documents. But the issue price was only 2.4 billion dollars, the amount of the contract that Ukraine paid to Iraq for the supply of Ukrainian tanks. Getting the biggest contract ever history Ukraine's supply of weapons has not been without the help of the United States. The rearmament of the Iraqi army comes from the funds allocated by the government of America under the rearmament program of the Iraqi army.

Ukraine
But despite the pressure, the opinions of well-known experts, alternative ideas for acquiring foreign OTRK, Ukraine found the strength to decide on the creation and acquisition of the MF OPSK "Sapsan". After all, who and what would not say, and the existing ones on the armament of the Supreme Soviet of Ukraine OTRK and the MLRS almost completely exhausted the resource. Requires or modernization of weapons or its replacement. Modernization will not work - components and rockets do not produce in Ukraine, and besides, the diversity of military equipment already cannot afford the military budget of the Ukrainian Armed Forces. The existing Tochka-U complexes by 2016 will completely exhaust the resource.

Prospects
The development, creation, and commissioning of the Armed Forces of Ukraine of a single, but multifunctional RK of the Sapsan type for Ukraine is now an economically correct and optimal solution. The complex will be able to replace a number of anti-aircraft, anti-ship and anti-missile systems. In solving the problems of the production of the Sapsan complex, well-coordinated work of almost 200 companies and enterprises will be required, which will make it possible to create additional jobs.

MF OTRK "Sapsan" today for Ukraine - a test for survival, the failure of the project will become a real threat to become forever dependent on technologically developed countries, will lead to a strong weakening of the external and internal image of Ukraine, which can not protect their citizens from possible military aggression. Ukraine, like Russia, has invaluable experience in creating missiles and military equipment, today it is truly the first step in creating Ukrainian missiles. And I want to believe that the future complex will make healthy competition to Russian samples, thereby pushing for the further development and modernization of rocket complexes.

MF OTRK "Sapsan"
In its performance characteristics, the multifunctional Sapsan confidently surpasses the Tochka-U OTRK. According to reports, the probability of hitting targets will be at least 87 percent, CEP no more than 20 meters with a range of up to 280 kilometers. Efficiency will ensure low vulnerability and high mobility of the complex. Sapsan will be based on the KrAZ chassis, and the missiles in containers will not require expensive maintenance in operation. If we compare it with the Russian counterpart Iskander-E, the complex will be more compact (21 ton against 42 tons), mobile and slightly more accurate (QUO up to 20 meters against 30 meters). The cost of the complex, according to the developers, will be significantly lower compared to the Russian Iskander complex, the estimated cost of which is 300 million dollars. The developers also noted that the development of the MF OPSK Sapsan will cost much less than the development of Iskander OTRK - 450 million dollars against one billion dollars. Expected time of admission to the APU - 2017 year. Preliminary 200 units are expected to be ordered by the Sapsan MF unit. In January, 2012, the military department of Ukraine reported that the Sapsan is still planning to provide a container with a BR. The prospect of a complex with PKR at this hour is unknown.



Preliminary specifications:
- The composition of the complex 2-3 SPU;
- weight of SPU 21 ton;
- chassis - KrAZ;
- time to start the 2-20 minutes;
- rocket armament: non-nuclear, long-range anti-aircraft, medium-range anti-ship missiles;
- range of action: BR 30-280 km, XUR 10-150 km, CRP 5-90 km;
- start TPK mortar.

Information sources:
http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-597.html
http://www.ng.ru/world/2009-09-14/8_venesuela.html
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/
http://republic.com.ua/article/24437-Ukrainskiy-Sapsan-budet-kruche-rossiyskogo-Iskandera.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPyIMhDy_bs
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  1. +7
    4 May 2012 09: 29
    "The development of the MF OTRK" Sapsan "will cost much less than the development of the OTRK" Iskander "- 450 million dollars against one billion dollars"

    Miser pays twice...
    1. +5
      4 May 2012 09: 34
      Why these developments come from Borisfen, that is, a lot has been tested back in the USSR.
      OKB South is a very strong design bureau.
      + The Iskander still saws rockets that go beyond the scope of contracts.
      1. Aleksey67
        +4
        4 May 2012 09: 41
        Somehow I can’t believe in the financial capabilities of Ukraine, and they have elections in the fall, and this is a very costly business. Russia began to "transit" less gas through Ukraine, so wherever you throw a wedge around. I would like to hope for the best, but I recall the tanks that the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense did not buy (there were no funds), but they participated in the Parade (S. Korea was reminded with dummy missiles), but in general it is not enough to develop, you also need to test it, and this is a lot of money. and here the IMF loans are hanging and Europe is unlikely to go to the meeting, Zhulka gave herself bruises and Ukraine is now in a deep political crisis with the EU. winked
        1. vozn_ser
          +9
          4 May 2012 13: 12
          Listen guys
          What will tell you grandfather.
          Our land is rich
          There is only no order in it !!!.
          recourse recourse recourse
      2. +1
        5 May 2012 02: 59
        KBYu (OKB it ceased to be called somewhere in the late 60s) is no longer a strong KB. If 10 percent of the capacity of the Yuzhnoye design bureau remains, which was under the USSR, then it will be very optimistic. There will be no "Sapsan" in the next 5 years. And there it will not be needed. And most likely - it will not be at all. All the money goes only to feed those left over from the collapsed design bureau of the times of the USSR. The level of specialists is extremely low, there are no new developments of our own. Unfortunately, there is no "school" as such. In the former test buildings of Yuzhmash today, warehouses for junk carriers.
    2. +1
      4 May 2012 09: 41
      Quote: timhelmet
      Miser pays twice...


      You would not chase pop for cheapness.

      I wholeheartedly for the cooperation of Ukraine and Russia, everything was fine-tuned, the conditions were discussed and on, otherwise you remember Kharkov T-84s of purely Ukrainian production, their armor cracked when a simple blank hit, and the guns burst on the 20th shot - I had to save “Pakistani contract” through cooperation with Izhevsk manufacturers.
      1. ZHORA
        +1
        4 May 2012 10: 22
        What the hell ?! Or the laurels of the "savior of the world", "Moscow-the third world" do not allow you to sleep peacefully?

        RUSSIA REFUSED TO SUPPLY WEAPONS FOR THE PAKISTAN CONTRACT INTENTING TO DISPOSE IT!

        Ukraine, in cooperation with the Swiss at the Sumy heavy drill pipe factory, has launched an independent production of KBAZ guns, which surpasses 2A46M-1 in terms of resource.
        1. Insurgent
          +2
          4 May 2012 12: 11
          It’s like the joke was that they’ll put birch chocks in the tower. Ukraine previously did not develop tank guns, it’s all the same that Ukraine will build a 5-generation airplane and he’ll say better than a raptor
        2. anton107798
          +2
          4 May 2012 19: 51
          I confirm the words of ZHORA, I have a lot of friends working for Malyshev, and so, they were very surprised that Russia abruptly stopped supplying guns, akurat at the beginning of the Pakistani order!
          1. +4
            4 May 2012 22: 45
            Quote: anton107798
            so, they were very surprised that Russia abruptly stopped supplying guns, akurat at the beginning of the Pakistani order!

            Specifically, under the Pakistani contract, yes, our contract refused to supply guns under this contract. What would it look like: to deliver tanks to India, and to Pakistan guns for their destruction?
        3. lotus04
          0
          5 May 2012 18: 12
          All! Hana! I went to give up!
      2. mga04
        +9
        4 May 2012 10: 46
        Links please to the studio. According to my information, it is thanks to and in spite of the blocking of the supply of components from Russia that a closed tank production cycle has been created in Ukraine.
        As for the Sapsan, it is simply necessary to create it, even without any export options, to keep the rocket and space industry in good shape.
        1. 755962
          +5
          4 May 2012 12: 33
          In total, it was planned to spend about UAH 700-800 million for the development of the Ukrainian missile IFRC "Sapsan". About UAH 1,5 billion more. - for the supply of this type of weapons to the troops after 2012. At the same time, the former general director of NSAU Yuriy Alekseev argued that the creation of the IFRK without the help of foreign partners needed about 4 billion UAH. and three years. But it is already clear today that the real lack of funding and technical risks will not allow even close these deadlines. And if you look at the abruptly changed geopolitical situation, Ukraine needs such a missile not by 2015, but by 2012, but lack of money is not the only risk. You can find money, but not be able to rationally dispose of it. The point is that the implementation of the program will require from the main players in the project - the Yuzhnoye State Design Bureau (the average age of specialists in military rocketry is about 70 years) and the Yuzhmash Production Association - not only to build up new technological potential, but also to take into account non-Soviet realities. Without creating a military rocket-building cluster in the country, Ukraine will get bogged down in a "project", in which then the extreme cannot be found ... It is especially worth noting the external opposition to this project. Neither the United States nor the Russian Federation is interested in a strong missile Ukraine, which independently produces OTRK. At one time, the United States demanded that in exchange for joining the MTCR, Ukraine should destroy its Scud missiles. Recall that the saved "Scuds" were decided to be included in the 1st missile division (18 launchers in each of the three missile brigades) - the basis of the Non-nuclear deterrent forces. This division began to form under A. Kuzmuk and was disbanded under E. Marchuk. And until 2005, all OTRK and missiles for them had exhausted the established service life. So there is simply no real deterrent component in the Ukrainian army today.Interfax-Ukraine
          1. mga04
            +2
            4 May 2012 14: 01
            That's why we need to create a complex, we need blood from the nose! And for the creation of a missile cluster, and for non-nuclear deterrent forces. Availability of money is a matter of the political will of the country's leadership and I really hope that this very leadership will be able to bring the topic of "Peregrine Falcon" to its logical conclusion.
      3. +2
        5 May 2012 11: 09
        Russians did not participate in the Pakistani contract - they refused.
    3. +2
      4 May 2012 13: 44
      Quote: timhelmet
      Miser pays twice...


      Ukraine, according to an already established tradition, will pay three times .... all the voiced figures are another Manilovism .. as always the money allocated for development / modernization will be successfully distributed, then they will still buy ready-made from Russia ...
      1. Neighbor
        -2
        4 May 2012 16: 35
        Quote: timhelmet
        "The development of the MF OTRK" Sapsan "will cost much less than the development of the OTRK" Iskander "- 450 million dollars versus one billion dollars" The miser pays twice ...

        They could have done 1000 and a million times cheaper! Why go far and bother!
        We would have zafigachi catapult - and enjoy life! What is not cheap and "effective and modern" weapons! But cheaper - than in Russia! belay laughing laughing laughing
        1. Neighbor
          -7
          4 May 2012 16: 42
          The new Ukrainian miracle - complex - Samsan. laughing
          It has no analogues in the world - and CHEAPER - of Russian bespantovyh samples! laughing laughing
          See - China, do not try to sell it - otherwise it will be impossible to fight with them. Previously, they would throw their hats, and with this newest Super-duper complex, they will throw cobblestones! belay
          laughing laughing
          1. Neighbor
            +9
            4 May 2012 21: 28
            To joke and pin up - next door fellow must not laughing - immediately cons and cons. What are all serious straight-you have there in Ukraine! No.
            I'm not from evil. So - my humor is so - specific. wassat
            wink
  2. +15
    4 May 2012 09: 52
    Buying someone else’s when you can do your own is not just stupid, it’s a crime. Let it be more expensive, or worse, the development of the research industry, its specialists, jobs, and independence from import supplies.

    And so, in principle, the best option is to audit and modernize the Points-U, for the next 10-15 years they are relevant for the Ukrainian army.
    Quote: Vadivak
    and the cannons were bursting on the 20 shot - they had to save the “Pakistani contract” through cooperation with Izhevsk manufacturers.

    But the first time I heard about it, I heard just that the Russian side insisted that Ukraine itself produce tank guns. Yes, and Pakistan did not go any new armored corps. It would also be interesting to learn more about testing the T-84 armored shells, and also remind you that all modern BPS are blanks.
    1. +5
      4 May 2012 10: 03
      Quote: Kars
      But the first time I hear about it,


      This was under Yeltsin. In 1996, in March 1997, a representative
      Rosvooruzhenie said that Russia would not take part in
      Ukrainian-Pakistani project.
      Kiev decided to create its own closed cycle in this situation
      Production T-80UD. The biggest problem was the tank gun. Her
      traditionally produced by Russia.

      This issue was resolved by the design bureau, which was engaged in the development of electrodynamic weapons during the Union as part of the anti-space weapon program “AntiSOI”. In March 1998, the Ukrainian tank gun was ready. After that, Kiev said that its development is much better than the Russian counterpart. However, at the same time, the trunks of Ukrainian tank guns went for a long time out of order after the 25th shot (for example, the barrel of the gun of the French tank Leclerc)
      withstands 400 shots) and therefore Kuchma personally persuaded Yeltsin,
      behind the scenes to sell Ukraine tank guns of Russian production. Such
      the option is not excluded, since creating a high-quality product in a year
      this level of technical complexity is almost impossible. On this
      it takes at least five years.

      In general, Andrei, do not judge strictly, but I remember the scandal, and a friend from Rosvooruzhenie directly excitedly spoke about this.
      1. +9
        4 May 2012 10: 13
        Yes, I don’t judge, and I don’t give any estimates. It's just not true.
        We didn’t even need to buy them because they were already standing on the T-80 that went to Pakistan, and a large number of spare 125 mm shafts (after all, there were 4300 tanks left in Ukraine, and parts were brought to us from Germany) lay in warehouses in parts and tank repair plants.
        And the Leclerc generally announces about the 1700 Westrells on the barrel, he didn’t personally check, and who could do it vryatli.

        And the scandal was when the Russian Federation was not about quality, but about patent law brought a claim.
      2. ZHORA
        +8
        4 May 2012 10: 32
        In accordance with the decree on the creation of the T-84 tank, work was also launched to create the Ukrainian version of the tank gun. In Soviet times, almost all the production of tank guns was concentrated in Perm on the association "Motovilikhinsky factories", from where they came to Kharkov. In 1993, the State Scientific and Technical Center for Artillery and Small Arms (General Designer L.I. Bondarenko) at the Kiev Bolshevik Plant (the only such organization in Ukraine) began design development of the KBAZ gun, which is a close equivalent to the Soviet 2A46M-1 gun. By 1996, a prototype was manufactured here and its preliminary tests were carried out. However, launching a tank gun in serial production in Kiev was not possible. The Bolshevik plant had neither special equipment nor its procurement. As a result, the following serial production scheme was adopted - the guns are assembled at the plant named after Malysheva, trunks come from JSC "SMNPO" them. MV Frunze (Sumy), gun steels are supplied by the Dneprospetsstal Zaporizhzhya enterprise, and design support is provided by KHKBM. Due to the fact that the plant them. Frunze already produced weighted pipes for oil and gas production and was almost completely equipped with the necessary equipment for the production of barrels (it remained only to install some additional equipment for specific operations), the production of 125-mm tank guns was already set up by March 1998. In addition, gun versions were developed to equip the modernized T-55 (KBA3K) and T-72 (KBM1M) tanks, as well as KBM2, a variant of the gun that can be operated with all types of NATO ammunition of 120 mm caliber.
      3. Splin
        +3
        4 May 2012 15: 07
        So that there are no disputes about the "lameness" of the Ukrainian tank, read the third party that came across it in reality. http://defenceforumindia.com.
        Much has been written there both about the "vaunted" T-90 and about envy of Pakistani tankers. Moreover, they write real people who met them "live", and not we amateur theorists.
        There are generally a lot of interesting different materials. At the same time, you will learn how Indians relate to us. "Russian". I was hurt...
        1. beard999
          +2
          4 May 2012 17: 26
          Quote: Splin
          Much has been written there both about the "vaunted" T-90 and about envy of Pakistani tankers. Moreover, they write real people who met them "live", and not we amateur theorists.

          Well, who prevents the Indians from buying Ukrainian T-84s, Oploty? Nevertheless, for more than 10 years they have been purchasing T-90S from Russia:
          In 1999, a preliminary contract was signed for the supply of 3 T-90S for testing.
          In 2001, a contract was signed and the shipment of a batch of 310 T-90S began (the amount of the contract is $ 1 billion).
          In 2006, a contract was signed for licensed production of 1000 T-90SA Bhishma (the contract amount is $ 2,5 billion).
          In 2007, a contract was signed for the supply of 347 T-90CA in the form of deliveries of 124 tanks and 223 car kits for licensed production (the contract value is $ 1,237 billion).
          The question is, if everything is so bad, why bought over 1650 T-90?
          1. +5
            4 May 2012 17: 30
            Quote: beard999
            Well, who prevents the Indians from buying Ukrainian T-84

            Firstly, the principles --- both of them and of Ukraine, we would not have understood if we had sold the same equipment to both Pakistan and India.
            And India had no choice as such - they have been operating the T-72 for many years,
            and taking an abrams or challenger is expensive, and they would not have gone to joint production.
            1. Antipov
              0
              4 May 2012 17: 40
              As far as it is known, the amers are now literally giving out their abrams, for nothing. They even steamed them into Iraq. But it's all off top ... About tanks somewhere else)))
              1. +2
                4 May 2012 17: 44
                Right now, and forced allies like Iraq or NATO like Greece. But free cheese is only in a mousetrap --- what kind of spare parts will be on the plate and that’s worth it.
                And so in 199 --- the seventh year, Ukraine, Germany even offered to give the submarine a gift.
            2. anton107798
              +3
              4 May 2012 20: 03
              A friend told me how they were assembled in the assembly shop of the Malyshev plant and read a letter from the commander of the Pakistani Tank Army. Letter of gratitude! It turns out on the exercises, one of the T-80UD or as they call them "AL-KHALID" turned over. and rolled head over heels down the hill! landed on the tower. So, they turned him over on the tracks, started it, and he drove on and shot at the range! Which ABRAMS can do that?
              1. Splin
                +3
                4 May 2012 20: 19
                AL-KHALID is a Pakistani tank. It was created on the basis of the Chinese Type-96 with the Ukrainian engine and the French OMS. Hindus consider it at the level of the latest T-72B modernization. In addition to the engine there, they say there is nothing to envy.
          2. Splin
            +1
            4 May 2012 17: 43
            As I understand it, with English problems, they ask me once. Nobody knew who Ukraine was as an exporter of new weapons in the 90s, and Russia was the legal successor of the USSR. According to the declared characteristics, the T-90 was better than the Pakistani T-80UD .. Problems were identified already during operation, from instruments to the engine can not withstand the Indian heat and highlands. And they buy because there was no alternative. They need a lot of China tanks from one side of the Pakistan from the other. Their Arjun is better than the T-90S and T-80UD, but they are few and more expensive. And not for highlands this tank. And the statistics there are full, as well as face photographs are only retouched.
            1. ZHORA
              0
              6 May 2012 17: 23
              Quote: Splin
              Their Arjun is better than the T-90S and T-80UD, but they are few and more expensive. And not for highlands this tank.


              Arjun is generally a parody of a tank, they tried to copy the Leopard’s tower with all its shortcomings, but they made it even worse. Well, it’d be compared with the Korean K2. A forum is informative.
  3. Savitar
    -10
    4 May 2012 09: 55
    KAZAKHSTAN KUPUЄ BTR-4 IN 150 MLN.DOL.http: //mil.in.ua/novyny/kazachstan-kupuye-btr-4-na-150-ml-dol but here are the Russians)))
    1. +3
      4 May 2012 10: 14
      Quote: Savitar
      KAZAKHSTAN KUPUЄ BTR-4


      What kind of gloating is this? BTR-4 is a modernized Soviet BTR-80, developed in the early 80s of the last century
      KB GAS. Please name something not Soviet-made together rejoice
      1. mga04
        +10
        4 May 2012 10: 54
        Quote: Vadivak
        BTR-4 is a modernized Soviet BTR-80

        If it was said about the BTR-3, I would not say anything, it’s really hard to find many differences there. But with BTR-4 it’s a bit you got lost, with BTR-80 it has only one thing in common that it’s armored personnel carriers.
        1. +1
          4 May 2012 11: 28
          Quote: mga04
          with BTR-80 it has only one thing in common that it’s armored personnel carriers.


          I do not argue. There are a lot of differences, the most important thing, in my opinion, is the return of fighters back, maybe I incorrectly put it but the base with the BTR -80 is one
          1. Splin
            +3
            4 May 2012 15: 23
            The bases are different, the school is one Soviet. Even the BTR-3 is a separate vehicle. Yes, it is based on the concept of the "ancestor" of the BTR-60, but from the Arzam machines there only this was. Absolutely everything is different, starting from the undercarriage. They need to re-equip the Marine brigade
            And to look for similarities, the BTR-4 is similar to the German Fuchs. All "western" forums say. But only outwardly. Indeed, there is nothing "revolutionary" in it.
            I agree with the opinion why the Kazakhs have two armored personnel carriers .. Probably, politics just intervened, because the BTR-82A is not a competitor to the Ukrainian counterpart. The BTR-90 could be his rival.
      2. +2
        4 May 2012 23: 01
        BTR-4 is a Ukrainian development. The engine is in the center, a three-cylinder (a relative of what is on the T-64), weighing more than 20 tons.
        1. 0
          5 May 2012 11: 15
          engines there seem non-muzhchursky (for export)
    2. Eraser
      +4
      4 May 2012 10: 26
      And Russia will buy 90 BTR-82, why do they need two different types? True, BTR-4 seems to be doing jointly with us.
    3. beard999
      0
      4 May 2012 17: 27
      Quote: Savitar
      here you have the Russians

      And what about the Russians?
      In 2004-2007 Russia sold Kazakhstan VW for $ 141 million, in 2008-2011. $ 382 million, plans for the period 2012-2015. - $ 258 million http://www.armstrade.org/includes/periodics/mainnews/2012/0503/095212745/detail.
      shtml.
      Russia is already implementing a contract for the supply of 100 BTR-82 to Kazakhstan. What does the BTR-82 Russian assembly and configuration, the Ukrainian BTR-4 supposed to produce at the Kazakh-Ukrainian joint venture.
  4. ZHORA
    +2
    4 May 2012 10: 05
    "But despite the pressure, the opinions of well-known experts, alternative ideas for the acquisition of foreign OTRK, Ukraine found the strength to make a decision on the creation and acquisition of the MF OTRK Sapsan"

    And what kind of well-known experts are these? They carried such nonsense, it is beneficial for Ukraine to build and develop its missile systems, all the more so as it can do it very well. And debugging the production of such complexes, the use of production chains will have a multiplicative effect and will advance in other related areas.
    1. Insurgent
      -4
      4 May 2012 12: 13
      By the way, there are trunks here trunks an article about otr even more protatype there is no argument?
      1. mga04
        +2
        4 May 2012 14: 07
        Excuse me, but do you have a desire to go to school? And it’s a shame from your texts for the Russian language, Pushkin and Lermontov do not even turn over in their graves, they rotate with propellers.
        1. +5
          4 May 2012 14: 29
          Quote: mga04
          but do you have a desire to go to school?

          Why such difficulties?
          It is enough to enable the text corrector in the browser.
          fellow
        2. Insurgent
          -4
          4 May 2012 22: 22
          After the letter "U" put a dot of gramata
          1. mga04
            +4
            4 May 2012 22: 49
            With respectful address to the interlocutor, the pronouns you, you, you are capitalized and a full stop is not put in front of them. The word "point" is written without a soft sign.
    2. +5
      4 May 2012 12: 54
      Zhora, why are you so worried, minus. Do not minus and will not be minus. Well, no one is against Ukrainian technology, there is a discussion and only
      1. 755962
        +3
        4 May 2012 13: 14
        By the way, I noticed. When a conversation or discussion on a topic related to Ukraine comes in, many generally refrain from giving ratings so as not to provoke a reaction. Many are interested in the position as such. You are right, Vadim!
        Quote: Vadivak
        there is a discussion and only
        1. +4
          4 May 2012 14: 36
          Eugene, I support you. Pay attention to the comments of Andrew
          Kars sensible, essentially without hysteria
          1. 755962
            +1
            4 May 2012 15: 09
            Quote: Vadivak
            Andrey's comments
            Kars sensible, essentially without hysteria

            Exactly! Everyone has their own views on what is happening. The discussion should be reasoned and, if possible, without emotion. I even corresponded with Andrey (Kars) in a "personal". A very smart, enthusiastic and polite person.
    3. +3
      4 May 2012 16: 07
      Quote: JORA
      And what kind of well-known experts are these? They carried such nonsense, it is beneficial for Ukraine to build and develop its missile systems, all the more so as it can do it very well. And debugging the production of such complexes, the use of production chains will have a multiplicative effect and will advance in other related areas.


      Not Ukraine can, but the allied Yuzhmash was able, almost all heavy ICBMs of the USSR were produced and developed there at Yuzhnoye (for example, Satan) And now only Sapsan is better than nothing.
      The history of the Yuzhny Machine-Building Plant, also known as Yuzhmash, began in 1944, when a plant for the production of trucks was built in Dnepropetrovsk, liberated from the Nazis. Then the enterprise was converted to combat ballistic missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads. Rockets were fired from 1951 to 1990, and the city was closed to foreigners.
      The apotheosis of the Soviet-Ukrainian rocketry was the famous SS-18 "Satan" ballistic missile - the most terrible weapon in the world

      In total, the enterprise, which includes the Yuzhnoye design bureau, has developed and embodied in metal 13 types of military and 7 types of civilian space rockets. Wheeled tractors and consumer goods were produced "for cover" here: mixers, juicers, food processors. Nowadays there has been no state financing of defense orders for a long time, the Yuzhmashevites have to look for clients themselves. It is not surprising that out of 50 thousand people who worked in the 90s, about a quarter remained. Salaries are also not so hot: to earn UAH 2000, you have to stay overtime and go out on Saturdays.

      As you know, "Yuzhmash" from 1986 to 1992, before being elected chairman of the Council of Ministers of Ukraine (now the prime minister) was headed by ex-president Leonid Kuchma. The period of his leadership is somehow not particularly marked at the enterprise, even in the factory museum there is no separate stand dedicated to Kuchma, however, the factory workers remember those years with nostalgia, and their former general director - with a kind word.

      “Kui and I are of the same age, we studied at the same faculty,” says Viktor Triy, the former head of the workshop, now the director of the plant museum. “Leonid Danilovich then worked in the design bureau as the lead designer of the 8K69 rocket (released in 1968), then as deputy general designer. I was amazed by his decisiveness, rigidity in decision-making. I could have removed the incompetent head of the shop without hesitation. Somehow, while still the deputy general designer of the design bureau, he disobeyed his boss Vladimir Utkin - to cancel the tests of the Cyclone-2 rocket and made the decision to launch it under his own responsibility. In spite of minor malfunctions. Here either pan, or disappeared. As a result - pan. He understood: every hour is expensive, the country needs reliable anti-missile defense, "Cyclone-2" is able to provide it. As for the workers, not everyone loved him from - for harshness, but the majority liked him, they say, the correct director. When during the years of perestroika (1985-1990) it was fashionable to elect leaders, Kuchma was first appointed "from above" and then re-elected by the overwhelming majority by the vote ".


      "Under him, the factory workers lived" like Christ's in the bosom, "recalls Vsevolod Kopeiko, editor of the factory large-circulation" Start ". - The factory had 50 canteens, 50 canteens, brought fresh meat, eggs, vegetables, and other deficits straight to the workplace. it was grown in their greenhouses, poultry houses. Kuchma was also seriously engaged in the construction of housing for the factory workers at the expense of the enterprise, they rented 1000 apartments a year. In a year and a half, the young specialist received a 1-room apartment, family - a 2-room. And they were distributed publicly, lists were printed in a large circulation. As for the salary, it was not delayed even for a day, despite the fact that people in the country did not receive their earnings for half a year. Once "Yuzhmash" sold several rocket engines to China, so from there on On the instructions of the General, they brought for the employees a lot of consumer goods, and of high quality, from state factories: TVs, video recorders, Chinese down jackets. ”Many of us either jokingly or seriously say: Danilych needs to go again and for the presidency. "

      My webpage
      1. Splin
        +4
        4 May 2012 16: 19
        Yuzhmash is now inundated with orders. There today trolleybuses are not the main products. Peregrine Falcon is a trifle. There is work, no one to work. Salaries are good, but youth does not keep up with the schedule. A new generation has spilled.
      2. +2
        4 May 2012 16: 50
        Quote: Ascetic
        "Kui and I are of the same age


        Somehow it’s not good with moderation, they deleted the phrase hmm, but it turned out even worse. And if the surname Kuchma sounded for example like Huchma?
      3. 0
        5 May 2012 11: 19
        Quote: Ascetic
        Once "Yuzhmash" sold several rocket engines to China, so from there, on the instructions of the General, they brought a lot of consumer goods for the employees, moreover, of high quality, from state factories: televisions, video recorders, Chinese down jackets.
        My parents worked at the Kiev defense plant. They also "drove" something to the Asians in the early 90s. The whole quarter wore the same (different in color) down jackets wink
        1. Kievan
          +1
          5 May 2012 15: 03
          It was by chance not the Bolshevik business?
          1. 0
            5 May 2012 20: 16
            on Artyom, Tatarka district - there almost everyone was somehow tied to Artyom.
  5. Tirpitz
    +5
    4 May 2012 10: 05
    The article is good. If everything depended on Yuzhny Design Bureau, Sapsan would have flown for a long time, but there is more politics here, if they started to create, then it is necessary to complete it in any case, despite the costs - this is the image of the state. We are not the Russian Federation or the USA, where 5-10 projects are developed, then 1-2 are selected and in series. If we don’t also build a corvette, then a sack.
    1. 755962
      +1
      4 May 2012 12: 38
      But in fact, objectively existing high technical risks are not the hottest point of the project. CIAAC in the arguments presented earlier criticized not so much technological as ideological anemia of the creators of OTR. This includes approaches to the organization of production, and the pace of the project, and its economic support, and the lack of a single defense industry coordinator in the country. To whom, let us say, the planned cooperation of a purely Soviet scale will seem indisputable: at the first stage it is planned to involve up to 60 enterprises in the project, and in the future - up to 240? The state should take on the content of 12 thousand new jobs. With such a scale, Ukraine needs to close all other defense projects.
  6. +3
    4 May 2012 11: 07
    I'm glad for the gunsmiths from the Yuzhnoye design bureau. Design Bureau "Yuzhnoye" with its scientific and technical potential confirms the high level of development of weapons production in the USSR.
    At the same time, I would very much like for the Russian people not to look at each other through the crosshairs of the sight.
  7. Ridder
    +1
    4 May 2012 11: 51
    For the Urainsk Armed Forces, in my opinion, there is no point in purchasing the "peregrine falcon" complex, it would be better if this money would go to the purchase or modernization of the existing equipment. Although the owner is a master ...
  8. +2
    4 May 2012 11: 59
    I don’t understand what kind of Iskander it is compared to (there is with an increased range, up to 500 km) and the price: relative to one missile or an entire vehicle with missiles (ours just comes with 2 missiles).
    1. Splin
      +2
      4 May 2012 16: 08
      Two rockets are the "home" option. For export, including to Ukraine, they offer a single-rocket for 280 km.
  9. Antipov
    -1
    4 May 2012 12: 37
    how our Ukrainian friends perked up))))) They will build a "peregrine falcon" - good, but who believes in that ?! In 2017, if at least one complex is in the Ukrainian army, and not in layouts or on posters at exhibitions, I personally will be ready to apologize! So far, this is only a PROJECT and not a project .. As for the "Yuzhny", yes, it really was excellent and powerful, but when ?! In the USSR, 30 years ago! What new was done there and humanely during the period of independence (except for the Soviet cosmetic marathon) and where to get the staff? Let's take a sober look at things ..
    1. Savitar
      -3
      4 May 2012 13: 25
      I can say the same thing about Artmat - current is only a project on posters
      1. Aleksey67
        +6
        4 May 2012 13: 28
        Quote: Savitar
        I can say the same thing about Artmat - current is only a project on posters


        Only Russia, unlike Ukraine, has money and a political leadership to bring Armata to the assembly line wink
        1. Savitar
          +2
          4 May 2012 14: 04
          wait and see Armata in 2015 Peregrine Falcon in 2017
          1. Aleksey67
            +4
            4 May 2012 14: 05
            Quote: Savitar
            wait and see Armata in 2015 Peregrine Falcon in 2017


            Yes, let it happen drinks
      2. Imperialist
        0
        4 May 2012 16: 18
        So the Russians have already made a new tank object 195 and it exists not only on paper but in iron.

        This tank was developed in the 90s, when the military industry lay and the military budget was $ 1 billion.

        The fact that the requirements have changed and a universal platform is required does not mean that there is no new tank.

        If in such tough times it turned out to create a fundamentally new tank, then now when UVZ production is growing and capacities are increasing and modernizing, when there are large government orders, money is allocated from the budget to modernize production,

        why shouldn't Armata appear?
    2. +1
      5 May 2012 20: 24
      Quote: Antipov
      Let's look at things soberly ..
      Soberly assessing, Ukraine ranks 4-5 in launching rocket launchers (Zenith, Dnieper), cooperates with Americans and Europeans (Taurus, Vega) ... A project with Brazilians (Cyclone, Alcantara) is successfully advancing.
  10. Savitar
    0
    4 May 2012 14: 16
    I fully agree drinks
  11. Horde
    +1
    4 May 2012 14: 45
    operatively tactical complexes are very serious weapons. If Russia finds them use (in Georgia, against missile defense in Poland and the Czech Republic), then what are these weapons for Ukraine? 300 km range, in the west there are "friends" of NATA, in the north Belarusians, in the east Russia. for a long-term fight with the pits, but this is complete nonsense!. There is one thing left for export, of course China will buy, of course, copy, replicate and of course this will greatly strengthen the ideas of the Yuzhnoye Design Bureau, again, such an alignment does not promise Russia, nothing horosho.Mozhet then Russia will buy? So I see Yanukovych to Putin- "Listen to you for gas, then take Peregrine Falcons, otherwise you will have to send them to China because we have no money, you need it?" Ukrainian Peregrine Falcons - throw a wedge everywhere.
    1. mga04
      +3
      4 May 2012 16: 54
      Quote: Horde
      in the west "friends" NATAVtsy

      In the West, relatively without problematic relations only with Poland - Euro 2012 seriously brought together. At the same time, there are problems with Romania, from which territorial claims in the next 10-15 years are very likely. If Romania unites with Moldova, the claims will become threatening. Hungary, too, while quietly, is grinding its teeth to part of Transcarpathia. So, OTRK will not be superfluous at all, the strong one respects only power, and this has been proved more than once in international politics. Moreover, both Russia and the United States are trying to pretend that Ukraine has not received any security guarantees in exchange for a nuclear-free status.
      1. Horde
        -1
        4 May 2012 17: 11
        Moreover, both Russia and the United States are trying to pretend that Ukraine has not received any security guarantees in exchange for a nuclear-free status.


        Do you think if Ukraine fights with Romania, will Amers or Muscovites & Romanians be bombed? This is a hypothetical option with zero probability.
        1. mga04
          +2
          4 May 2012 18: 47
          So here I am the same, no one is going to fit in despite all the guarantees and promises. And a hundred OTRK, capable of covering all key energy facilities in minutes, is a very serious deterrent.
      2. Splin
        +2
        4 May 2012 17: 15
        As long as we have Tornadoes and Hurricanes, none of the European adversaries will turn up. But the old MLRS are dying. Peregrine Falcon certainly will not replace them. To replace them, container multiple-barrel launchers of MLRS are also being developed. They decided to abandon the 300 caliber due to excess power for Europe. Limited to 220 mm for 24-28 trunks for us and 240 mm and 18 trunks for export.
        1. Horde
          0
          4 May 2012 17: 20
          As long as we have Tornadoes and Hurricanes, none of the European adversaries will turn up

          tornadoes, hurricanes of course power. Have you been teaching for volley systems for a long time?
          1. Aleksey67
            +2
            4 May 2012 17: 22
            Quote: Horde
            tornadoes, hurricanes of course power. Have you been teaching for volley systems for a long time?


            Enough and air defense exercises, when the plane was shot down, and then "cover" God forbid some kind of dacha village
            1. Horde
              +1
              4 May 2012 17: 33
              Enough and air defense exercises, when the plane was shot down, and then "cover" God forbid some kind of dacha village


              it’s possible, even so, from the coast and into the Black Sea. smile
              1. Aleksey67
                +2
                4 May 2012 17: 39
                Quote: Horde
                it’s possible, even so, from the coast and into the Black Sea.


                Well then, some cruise ship will sink laughing
                1. Horde
                  +2
                  4 May 2012 18: 09
                  Well then, some cruise ship will sink


                  So the exercises went well, the damaging factor of the SZO remains very high.
                2. +1
                  5 May 2012 20: 32
                  Russians were about 10 years old on the ship Vereshchagin. They fired from Opuk, thank God there were no dead. There were pictures in the internet.
              2. 0
                5 May 2012 20: 30
                Yes, yes, they shoot at sea, nowhere else. Schaub was not like "Brovary".
            2. Antipov
              0
              4 May 2012 17: 45
              The Ukrainian Armed Forces have a sad experience not only with the S-200, this is when our plane was shot down, but also the OTRK. If you remember about 6-7 years ago, the Tochka OTRK was shooting in Ukraine and hit a residential building, fortunately the warhead was practical (without explosives) and we managed to avoid big casualties ...
              1. -2
                4 May 2012 23: 18
                Quote: Antipov
                If you remember about 6-7 years ago, the Tochka OTRK was shooting in Ukraine and hit a residential building, fortunately the warhead was practical (without explosives) and we managed to avoid big casualties ...

                There seemed to be no victims, although the blank went to the basement. The military initially stated that it wasn’t them, but when they found rocket stabilizers on the top floor, they recognized their rocket.
                1. Splin
                  0
                  4 May 2012 23: 26
                  It was in the 2000th in Brovary. There was a deceased. The militaries immediately recognized and repented by repairing the house and paying compensation. No one went to trial because, according to the official version, the stabilizer was destroyed due to metal fatigue and microcracks.
          2. Splin
            +2
            4 May 2012 17: 48
            Hurricanes fired in one gulp half a year ago. Tornadoes for only one shell from a car. There are many reasons.
            1. Antipov
              -1
              4 May 2012 17: 49
              Yes, one reason! ONE! EXPENSIVE!
              1. Aleksey67
                +1
                4 May 2012 17: 50
                Quote: Antipov
                Yes, one reason! ONE! EXPENSIVE!


                Maybe with the polygons too strained
                1. Antipov
                  0
                  4 May 2012 17: 52
                  These are all consequences))) The reason is one-expensive. It’s expensive to open new ranges, it’s expensive to train specialists, it’s expensive to buy new ammunition, it’s expensive to develop new weapons and so on ...
                  1. Splin
                    +3
                    4 May 2012 18: 04
                    Volleys are fired during exercises if the routine storage period of shells ends, then they shoot "offhand".
          3. 0
            5 May 2012 20: 28
            Quote: Horde
            tornadoes, hurricanes of course power. Have you been teaching for volley systems for a long time?
            At the parade, I asked the officer "on the Smerch," so to speak. They shoot at Chaud towards the sea.
        2. +1
          4 May 2012 17: 32
          And what about our Tornadoes? Why do they die? Of which they almost never shoot. A maximum of one Zaporozhets crushed when they drove them to the oath laughing
          1. Horde
            +2
            4 May 2012 17: 43
            And what about our Tornadoes? Why do they die? Of which they almost never shoot


            probably because the shelf life of ammunition is coming out, and this is again done in Russia.
            1. Splin
              0
              4 May 2012 17: 54
              This is one of the reasons, there are many of them. PCs can be developed of their own, as they did for Grad. But is there a rational grain in this? Or it will be like with the submarine "Zaporozhye"
              1. Horde
                0
                4 May 2012 18: 04
                Or it will be like with the submarine "Zaporozhye


                , and what happened to the submarine "Zaporozhye"?
                1. Splin
                  0
                  4 May 2012 18: 10
                  She was put on the move, and for hell do we need an old ocean submarine? As a combat unit, it is nothing of itself. It is useful only for training anti-submariners. In vain thrown money. The army already has a meager budget.
                  1. Horde
                    +1
                    4 May 2012 18: 20
                    It is only useful for training anti-submariners


                    don’t worry, it’s like, it will show itself and Yanukovych will sell this dish to Iran

                    The boat for the first time in almost 20 years went to sea on the surface using its own power plant. The submarine will not submerge. When surfaced, it will run along the coast and stand on the roadstead opposite the village of Kacha. It is expected that on April 27 "Zaporozhye" will return to the Sevastopol Bay.
                    Recall that the diesel-electric submarine Zaporozhye (Project 641) was built in 1970 in Leningrad and entered into the Northern Fleet of the USSR Navy, then transferred to the Black Sea Fleet of the USSR Navy. In 1997, the submarine was included in the Ukrainian Naval Forces. However, due to unsatisfactory technical readiness over the past 20 years, I have never independently set out to sea or made underwater dives.


                  2. +1
                    5 May 2012 23: 42
                    firstly, it is already good that it is possible to train an ASW, an "oceanic" PL is good, great autonomy. Money was no longer in vain.
                2. Antipov
                  -3
                  4 May 2012 18: 14
                  that's what happened to her
                  http://gunm.ru/news/podvodnyj_choven_zaporyzhzhja/2012-03-19-925
                  1. Donetskiy
                    -2
                    5 May 2012 01: 14
                    not relevant
                    http://www.vmsu.info/ships/zaporozhye/zaporozhye_113_st.htm
      3. Antipov
        -1
        4 May 2012 17: 17
        Yes, your nuclear-free status was given to you! You still regret that you have lost nuclear weapons. Do you really think that nuclear weapons could, under any circumstances, remain in Ukraine ?! Ukraine received "independence" in exchange for nuclear weapons! Under no circumstances and under any conditions there would be no nuclear weapons left in Ukraine and would be enough to puff up on nuclear weapons like a mouse on a croup, Ukraine does not have it and never will. Just accept it and humble yourself. But I don’t believe in the account of OTP "Sapsan" and for some reason. Yuzhnoye is really powerful and really has experience in making excellent rockets. But the fact is that OTR and ICBM are completely different systems. First of all, "Yuzhnoye" made ICBMs and other liquid-propellant missiles, which is acceptable for LBR, although now the tendency is to be adopted even for solid-fuel ICBMs. For OTP, this is no longer relevant. Russia has recently solved the problem of creating a modern high-energy solid fuel for missiles (not without the help of intelligence wink ). Ukraine has yet to do this (the existing Soviet recipes are outdated and have never been effective). And without modern fuel, at best, a modernized version of Tochka will be obtained. I repeat, but I will be sincerely glad if, nevertheless, a modern OTRK appears in Ukraine and it enters the arsenal of its army, and not countries very remote from the Ridnaya Batkivshchyna. Good luck
        1. -1
          4 May 2012 23: 35
          Quote: Antipov
          First of all, "Yuzhnoye" made ICBMs and other liquid-propellant missiles, which is acceptable for LBR, although now the tendency is to be adopted even for solid-fuel ICBMs. For OTP, this is no longer relevant. Russia has recently solved the problem of creating a modern high-energy solid fuel for missiles (not without the help of intelligence)

          If you read the history of the creation of the Bark rocket (for Typhoons), you will find that after the collapse of the USSR, the production of high-energy fuel remained in Ukraine. And the rocket with the fuel that was being done in Russia at that time either lost in range, or it was required to slightly reduce the throw weight.
          Now, it seems that in Russia in this area there is no lag (even compared to American missiles).
          But, back to solid fuel.
          In Ukraine, its production was established. Whether there was a design bureau for engines for this fuel, I am not aware.

          If I am mistaken, correct.
          1. Antipov
            0
            5 May 2012 00: 41
            If we compare the geometric dimensions of the D-19 and Trident missiles, we can see that it is three times more precisely because the Soviet fuel was much worse than the American one (let's be honest, not only for this, but this is one of the main reasons) and that is why the USSR was forced build giant boats "Akula" (in NATO "Typhoon") to accommodate Now the main designer of rockets on solid fuel in Russia is MIT (Moscow Institute of Thermal Engineering). Although there is a silver lining, the throwable weight of our missiles was somewhat higher (10 warheads versus 8 American). As far as it is known, now Russia has no problems with this, it was thanks to good fuel that it was possible to provide the Bulava with quick acceleration and an inclined start, which reduces the vulnerable area of ​​active acceleration to overcome the missile defense
            1. 0
              5 May 2012 23: 37
              as far as I remember, the third stage on the Mace (booster block) is liquid fuel.
          2. +1
            5 May 2012 20: 38
            Motor Sich to this day collect engines for Russian tactical cruise missiles. This is something else, but still ...
  12. Splin
    0
    4 May 2012 15: 32
    I will correct the author a little. The Thunder was a cruise missile complex. Yes, indeed it was promoted for export, but the Arabs were not interested in the drawings, they needed a "running layout. But it was the Thunder that formed the basis of the anti-ship missile system for the Sapsan." The fleet is expensive to keep and build and it is not effective in the Black Sea puddle. -can tightly cover the coast.
  13. 0
    4 May 2012 18: 16
    the attempt to create a multifunctional complex is alarming .., in the 30s, attempts to create a multifunctional tool were not very successful.
    1. Splin
      0
      4 May 2012 18: 25
      Why? Grabinskaya gun could become an anti-aircraft gun with proper use.
      The Germans also used their anti-aircraft 88-millimeters from the 40th year against Matild.
      Our anti-aircraft guns were used as anti-tank guns and their cut-off versions were put both in tanks and self-propelled guns.
      1. +1
        4 May 2012 18: 30
        Universalism nearly ruined the artillery of the Soviet army and Tukhachevsky, it’s enough to just shoot for it. And the fact that the Germans and the Soviet Socialist Republic shot at tanks with zinit guns showed the lack of anti-tank guns of normal quality, I think that our Germans were very pleased with the 85 / 88 guns direct fire from such bulky and noticeable units.
        1. Splin
          +1
          4 May 2012 18: 40
          Universal moderate is good in itself. But not at the maximum. The Germans began to shoot tanks from Africa. And the armor plate went factory all war. And there were two more sights. And in our F-22 there were 2 sockets for sights. MG-34 (42) universal machine gun and a standard for all single machine guns
          1. +1
            4 May 2012 18: 45
            Quote: Splin
            The Germans began to shoot tanks from Africa

            In general, even in the French company. And that armor plate to one place.
            And they started to shoot because apart from 37 mm, they had nothing in bulk.
            Quote: Splin
            And in our F-22 there were 2 sockets for sights

            And to make a normal anti-tank gun with the F-22, the Germans had to squander the chamber and limit the elevation angle (Grabin, by the way, suggested this) and use it .. universalism .. for some reason they didn’t.
            1. Splin
              +2
              4 May 2012 18: 58
              They also had a 50-mm anti-tank, that's not the point. There were no tank confrontations in the French campaign. Only one thing ended with the Stuck approach. And the F-22 in the troops was as divisional rather than anti-tank Kaliba 45-57 mm was enough to deal with shells. It was never an anti-aircraft gun or anti-tank (with us), but the idea itself was laid in it.
              1. +1
                4 May 2012 19: 05
                Quote: Splin
                50-mm anti-tank case

                When and how much
                Quote: Splin
                There were no tank confrontations in the French campaign

                Yes, and where does the confrontation in France were their silver carp and Matilda
                Quote: Splin
                divisional

                In
                Quote: Splin
                but it contained the very idea
                bad idea,
                as in ZIS 3 --- they saved many lives of the Germans, because they did not have a hinged path, but an excess of perseverance.
                Quote: Splin
                Caliba 45-57

                45 was already not enough, given the quality of the ammunition, and 57 was too small, so the PTO was built on ZIS 3

                In general, if you are interested, read about Mukhin on this subject, at least in ..Parabelum .. I disagree with him in many ways, but he described the state of the Soviet artillery in detail.
                1. Splin
                  +2
                  4 May 2012 19: 15
                  We are not arguing about whether Universalism should take place. Let these be other examples.
    2. mga04
      +2
      4 May 2012 18: 53
      And if the universal part of the complex is just a launcher, and missiles are put on it as needed? Why is this bad?
      1. +2
        4 May 2012 19: 23
        It’s rather not UNIVERSALIZATION, but unification, and that’s good. And the artillery of the Red Army is just a sore point for me.
  14. ZUI
    ZUI
    -3
    4 May 2012 18: 22
    Xoxly, give a good fool to give back - to the USSR. Unified and powerful - and missiles do not have to rivet on their knees and will be respected in the world. wink
    1. Horde
      +1
      4 May 2012 18: 59
      give a good fool to give back - in the USSR


      it is not so easy to do, during the Union and especially the time "after the Union" they were born, developed and now enjoy the power of the elite of the new states. The interests of the people are deeply indifferent to them, as in Russia or are in last place, as, say, in Kyrgyzstan or Ukraine. These "rulers" do not want to see the needs of the peoples (the rise in prices for everything, the absence of orders and laws), but want to completely take away wealth and resources through their own wallets with the prospect of exporting wealth abroad. So, about any voluntary parting with power and speech Fragmentation is possible further, unification - for this now there is neither political will nor objective reasons.
      1. 0
        4 May 2012 19: 15
        ehhh so it is so ... but I want to dream))) ....
  15. serezha.fedotoff2013
    +2
    4 May 2012 18: 58
    Something, Iskander ,, KVO unsatisfactory (30 m.), It would be at least 10, and I considered it a high-precision weapon
    1. -1
      4 May 2012 23: 53
      serezha.fedotoff2013,
      Quote: serezha.fedotoff2013
      Something, Iskander ,, KVO unsatisfactory (30 m.), It would be at least 10, and I considered it a high-precision weapon

      Combat performance
      Circular probable deviation: 1 - 30 m [10] (depending on the guidance system used).
      TTX -------------------------------- Iskander ----------- Iskander-M-- --------- Iskan

      der K
      The number of missiles on the launcher ------ 2 --------------------- 2 ----------------- ---------- 2
      Payload mass --- 480 ------------------ 480 ------------------------ 480
      Missile Type-----------Ballistic, Guided Ballistic, Guided Cruise
      firing range ---------- 280 ------------------- 280 ----------------- ------- 500
      Firing accuracy with autonomous/optical ignorance (KVO), m
      -----------------------------------5-7 / 30-70----------5-7 / 30-70-----------------

      http://www.kap-yar.ru/index.php?pg=218
  16. serezha.fedotoff2013
    0
    4 May 2012 19: 57
    But interestingly, the new ,, Tonado-G ,, with high-precision shells will be the same ,, accurate ,,?
  17. Splin
    +1
    4 May 2012 20: 13
    Tonado-G is a 122 mm caliber. In order for the projectile to be high-precision, it must be controlled either by beam or by satellite. Propulsion engines must have controlled nozzles. Plus electronics. Dear pleasure. In the open press, they say that old PCs also come to the tornado. So they are not in containers as we say anti-tank missiles. And this is wrong. The projectile should not undergo routine maintenance for at least 5 years. A larger caliber WTO -220 or 300 is economically viable.
  18. 0
    4 May 2012 21: 58
    Here the spears break. It is clearly written that the USA, NATO and Russia are not interested in the new manufacturer of such missiles. The USA has managed to force Ukraine to liquidate the Scud, and I think there will be no problems letting Sapsan enter the market!
    1. +1
      5 May 2012 11: 35
      Quote: APASUS
      Here the spears break. It is clearly written that the USA, NATO and Russia are not interested in the new manufacturer of such missiles. The USA has managed to force Ukraine to liquidate the Scud, and I think there will be no problems letting Sapsan enter the market!
      In general, very few people buy such complexes, who need to "push themselves" themselves (India, Pakistan, Iran, North Korea). Iskander was not sold to anyone either, although Syria wanted to. Peregrine Falcon cannot count on export a priori. The so-called "strategic non-nuclear deterrent" for Ukraine. Ukrainian SCADs were cut, and God bless them. They were incapable of combat and, at best, very inaccurate. And so, amers also paid for the disposal of this chumadan without handles.
      1. 0
        5 May 2012 20: 39
        Quote: Aeneas
        Ukrainian SKADs were cut, and God bless them. They were not combat-ready and, at best, very accurate. And so, the amers also paid for the disposal of this hand-made cigadan.

        Yes, it’s not a matter of fighting efficiency or not, and who pays !!!! Now the United States can offer Yanukovych to cut all the aircraft into metal and not pay badly, but when everyone cuts .................. you will not only snake Snake, but also give (for example) Turkey Crimea, according to the decision of the provincial private court of Amsterdam. Because how do you have nothing to answer ............... gentlemen cut everything !!
        1. +1
          5 May 2012 23: 34
          That all that the amers were interested in had already been cut, Scuds were the last. Serpentine nobody "pissed away" - this is propaganda husk.
          1. 0
            6 May 2012 09: 49
            Quote: Aeneas
            That all that the amers were interested in had already been cut, Scuds were the last. Serpentine nobody "pissed away" - this is propaganda husk.

            You see how everything turns out .......... everything that the Americans were interested in was cut, but the precedent is important with Zmein .... they do not make claims to strong countries. Romania could not even imagine, not that for something to claim in the days of the USSR! And as far as I know, Romanians have claims to Ukraine on two more islands on the Danube.
            So much for the answer ............... why cut the rockets?
            1. 0
              6 May 2012 10: 17
              Quote: APASUS
              .Romania could not even imagine, not to claim anything in the days of the USSR! And as far as I know, Romanians have claims to Ukraine on two more islands on the Danube.
              So much for the answer ............... why cut the rockets?
              You will probably be surprised, but in the most socialist times the Romanians did not recognize the border with the Union (the maritime border in the area of ​​Snake). In general, Romanians are strange people, the Romans all the same! they condemned our entry into Afghanistan, went to the Olympics in Los Angeles, generally flirted very much (in the person of Ceausescu) with the West .. naive Ceausescu, however, ended badly (deservedly). There was a demarcation line in the area of ​​Snake, proposed by the Union, and Wishlist Romanians (their version of the border). In general, The Hague decided not to bother and awarded the border approximately in the middle. There are cards in the internet, you can google. The military power of the Romanians is exaggerated (it is none), as well as a small population and economic power compared with Ukraine. If the Romanians scoff something from Ukraine, it’s only in conjunction with NATO, which is more than unlikely. What kind of missiles are a pity is the medium range, cut by agreement of the Union and the States. But they are not needed without nuclear warheads. Nuuu could still leave Ukraine a dozen Tu-22M with X-22 missiles. Schaub could be hired on boats in the Black Sea.
  19. serezha.fedotoff2013
    0
    4 May 2012 22: 44
    Quote: Splin

    Splin

    Excalibur, Kitolov, Krasnopol generally have neither marching engines, nor controlled nozzles, nevertheless they are WTO
    1. Splin
      +1
      4 May 2012 23: 06
      About Krasnopol-right. He doesn’t need him. Shooting from the cannon. But there is an accelerating engine, and the projectile is adjusted by stabilizers. Suppose that 120 mm RSa does not have turbojet movement, but then we need to create new large stabilizers. And what is cheaper and better is not clear.
  20. +3
    5 May 2012 11: 28
    A peregrine falcon is needed, and Ukraine has everything to produce it: the Yuzhnoye rocket design bureau, solid-fuel production in Pavlograd, target designation and orientation systems in Kharkov ... But the reality is not so simple, although Alekseev said that the money went and the project "stirred" complex is an ambitious task. It would be nice to involve partners to share costs and risks. For example, the Brazilians, especially since we are building Alcantara and Cyclone with them. Nuu or Kazakhs, they are now with money and are very ambitious, they are creating a joint venture with Ukraine for aviation and armored vehicles.
  21. Dimoll
    +1
    5 May 2012 20: 23
    Eh guys guys. They divided one nation, which once existed as one, and now everyone is trying to show himself - who is cooler, as a word, as small children, that (by the way, I’m Khokhol, but I consider myself Russian and live in Russia), that Russia. One by one zadolbut and saw us. And together there is a chance.
    1. ZHORA
      -1
      5 May 2012 21: 30
      Do you know how "Khokhol" differs from the Ukrainian? A Ukrainian is the one who lives in Ukraine respects its culture, language, traditions, and "Khokhol" lives where it is better for him ...
      1. Dimoll
        +1
        8 May 2012 20: 02
        What are you doing now ??
        That my family from Ukraine is so. But I do not distinguish between Russian and Ukrainians. And you look like a great and independent Ukrainian. You read the story about the development and movement on the map of the Slavs, about Kievan Rus and about how in general Russia developed. Then tell me what Ukraine is and how it can be independent.
        But I live where I was born - in the USSR (Russian Empire) and it’s not my fault that several power-hungry morons ignored the general Soviet referendum and divided our country in violation of all norms and laws.
      2. M. Peter
        0
        28 May 2012 11: 52
        I also have my kind from the Ukrainian land. I am Russian person.
        We were all divided. Dimoll A huge plus for you in support.
  22. 0
    7 May 2012 17: 28
    Again srach ... people are POSITIVE news ... against the background of what is happening in the army now, any development and any business is good ... we need these complexes and you need ...
    1. Dimoll
      +1
      8 May 2012 20: 12
      Weapons are always needed to protect the state !!! only I am against what is happening now in our states in relation to each other. Fuck this Peregrine Falcon when there is a ready realized idea "Eskander", you probably have a lot of money. And I can say the same about our helicopter, rocket engines, cruise missile engines and the production capacity of shipyards, and also about the Nitka test site. Isn't it easier to unite and use what has long been ready and established for each other? No, we are now going to reinvent the wheel 10 times, spend a lot of bobble on it, each will have analogues. And then, as a result, we will all the same unite and lose half of it because it is not rational to have 10 samples of one and the same.
  23. 0
    17 May 2012 23: 53
    An article about the Sapsan missile system and how did the comments end? Kindergarten ...

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