Military Review

Five of the worst. National Interest named the most "unsuccessful" pistols of Russia

231
The National Interest named the top 5 worst editions of pistols ever created in Russia - from the time of the Russian Empire to the present day, while noting that many different types of this were created in the country weapons.


Five of the worst. National Interest named the most "unsuccessful" pistols of Russia


According to the author of the material, one of the worst Russian pistols is the OC-23 "Dart". Journalists believe that this gun is very heavy and "meaningless" because the 5,4518 mm cartridge is very weak. The newspaper writes that, in spite of the automatic principle of action and the striking rate of fire (up to 1 800 shots per minute), the OC-23 showed weak results, and it was not accepted for service.

On the second line is the Nagan revolver of the 1895 model of the year. This weapon remained the main one in the Russian and Soviet Army until the 1930s, when it was replaced with a Tokarev pistol. According to the authors of the article, “the worst in this revolver is an unusually tight descent.”

The third place according to the edition was occupied by the P-96C pistol, which did not have an external fuse. In terms of tactical and technical parameters, the P-96C was inferior to the Makarov pistol, and therefore proved to be commercially unsuccessful, and at the end of the 1990-s its production was stopped.

The list also includes the Strizh pistol of the Arsenal company, one of the newest Russian pistols. The author notes that the plastic frame of the pistol and its technical characteristics allow the shooter to quickly fire on the target. The gun, according to him, has several obvious flaws: insecurity, a weak blow to the primer, the difficult extraction of the sleeve, "very tight" and "fuzzy" descent.

The latest pistol in the list of the worst was the pistol of Yarygin PYA / MP-443 “Grach”. Since this weapon in 2003 was adopted by the army and the Ministry of Internal Affairs, it has revealed a huge number of problems, the author writes. The biggest problem of the PJ is that when it is fired from it, violations of the supply of cartridges and liner cases often occur. The guaranteed number of shots is in total thousands of 4, which is much less than any NATO service pistol. An uncomfortable design of the pistol is also noted - a non-ergonomic grip and a very wide front sight, which adversely affects the accuracy of shooting.
Photos used:
http://www.arms-expo.ru/
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  1. bouncyhunter
    bouncyhunter April 30 2018 14: 36
    +30
    Again this yellow NI with its iksperdy ... recourse
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. bouncyhunter
        bouncyhunter April 30 2018 14: 41
        +41
        Quote: Looking Petrovich
        This NI is a copy of the VO forum.

        If you do not like VO so much, then the logical question arises: what are you doing here?
        1. bogart047
          bogart047 April 30 2018 16: 08
          +11
          I think the essence of the answer is that the forum experts spoil the forum. And they are everywhere. As there, so here.
          1. bouncyhunter
            bouncyhunter April 30 2018 16: 14
            +13
            Try to formulate your opinion in such a way that its presentation does not cause a double interpretation. Regarding those who spoil VO demagogic tricks instead of verified data and accurate information - I agree.
        2. Letun
          Letun April 30 2018 16: 12
          +31
          Quote: bouncyhunter
          If you do not like VO so much, then the logical question arises: what are you doing here?

          May I answer? A colleague wrote about VO. He wrote about the forum. So I understand the discussion in the comments meant. I’ve been at VO since the 12 year, so then there were fewer empty, scandalous, technically incompetent comments, I don’t know where the crowds of lemmings came to this site from then on. Although the material during this time has also become less quality. But something to read is interesting.
          1. bouncyhunter
            bouncyhunter April 30 2018 16: 19
            +12
            In this context, I agree: sometimes amateur comments are brought to a boil. But, as I said below:
            Quote: bouncyhunter
            all under one comb why align?
          2. Captain45
            Captain45 April 30 2018 18: 46
            +6
            Quote: Letun
            May I answer? A colleague wrote about VO. He wrote about the forum. So I understand the discussion in the comments meant. I’ve been at VO since the 12 year, so then there were fewer empty, scandalous, technically incompetent comments, I don’t know where the crowds of lemmings came to this site from then on. Although the material during this time has also become less quality. But something to read is interesting.

            good hi
        3. Piramidon
          Piramidon April 30 2018 16: 26
          +4
          Quote: bouncyhunter
          If you do not like VO so much, then the logical question arises: what are you doing here?

          In fact, the VO and the VO forum with the couch experts-commentators present are “two big differences,” as they say in Odessa. Namely FORUM meant "Looking Petrovich".
          1. 73bor
            73bor 2 May 2018 06: 20
            +3
            You have the article above, although at least you would blink something on the article, a bunch of comments and not a single one in the case, but in the case I’ll say with Glock, with Beretta there are problems worse than ours, not without reason the US Army for 15 years can’t adopt a gun!
            1. Piramidon
              Piramidon 10 May 2018 12: 23
              0
              Quote: 73bor
              you though-under the article something vyakat

              But being rude is not good. If you "blather" here, then this does not mean that everyone is like that.
      2. Letun
        Letun April 30 2018 16: 04
        +4
        Quote: Looking Petrovich
        Quote: bouncyhunter
        Again this yellow NI with its iksperdy ... recourse

        This NI is a copy of the VO forum.

        Ahah! 5 points!! laughing
    2. pvv113
      pvv113 April 30 2018 14: 43
      +18
      Pasha, you know that it’s often taken to judge a thing by those who don’t have a clue about it
      1. bouncyhunter
        bouncyhunter April 30 2018 14: 47
        +9
        I know of course . This is especially true for NI. yes
        1. vovanpain
          vovanpain April 30 2018 15: 33
          +10
          Quote: bouncyhunter
          I know of course . This is especially true for NI. yes

          pasha laughing drinks and Petrovich is right
          Quote: Looking Petrovich
          This NI is a copy of the VO forum.

          There are a lot of experts on the forum for every taste and the state can be controlled by economists directly from God and anyone will win the war. laughing drinks
          1. bouncyhunter
            bouncyhunter April 30 2018 16: 00
            +4
            Brother hi drinks But why all the same size? Not all the same reapers, blacksmiths, dudes here are gamers? Moreover, those who are really versed in one sphere or another who are not the first day at the HE already know.
      2. Pivot
        Pivot April 30 2018 16: 01
        +2
        Well, if you judge so, then the best short-bore all the same in the United States. Just due to the fact that this is a mass product and we have it, small batch.
        1. RaptorF22
          RaptorF22 April 30 2018 16: 54
          +3
          So we have prohibitors winked why do we need competition and mass goods laughing Why do we need a civilian arms market, because we have the best weapons for all occasions, our prohibitions lol Thanks to them, we don’t need to develop and improve our weapons with such friends and enemies lol
          1. Star
            Star 2 May 2018 08: 53
            +1
            Where continuous prohibitions a feeling of slavery appears.
            Oh, how I envy the Americans in terms of weapons.
            And with regards to the P-96S, Delitans really wrote like that.
            The letter C means that it is official (for private security companies) legally the power of the cartridge is reduced by 30% from the combat, hence all its problems. And so you can shoot.
            1. the villain
              the villain 2 May 2018 17: 25
              +1
              Quote: Asterisk
              Where continuous prohibitions a feeling of slavery appears.

              And this, alas, has a place to be, but not always and not everywhere. In Russia, bans only spur inquisitive minds to search for loopholes. IMHO. hi
              1. Star
                Star 2 May 2018 21: 54
                0
                I heard recently banned "howlers" to set the alarm.
                One thief died of fear.
                Soon they will require a first-aid kit and leave a bottle with a snack ....
                1. the villain
                  the villain 2 May 2018 22: 29
                  0
                  Quote: Asterisk
                  and leave a bottle of appetizer ....

                  Only if with methyl alcohol ... hi
                  But it is imperative to write on the bottle that consuming the contents is hazardous to health wassat
        2. Alf
          Alf April 30 2018 20: 05
          +1
          Quote: Pivot
          the best short-barrels are still in the USA. Just because it’s a mass product

          Bulk goods are not always the best.
      3. Orionvit
        Orionvit April 30 2018 17: 35
        +4
        Quote: pvv113
        taken by those who have no clue about this subject

        Some have no idea, but they have especially firm convictions about their rightness. As in military technology, but mainly in politics. Communicating with such is useless, because in the end they always slide into rudeness. If a person is "on his own wave", then this is incurable.
        1. The comment was deleted.
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        2. pvv113
          pvv113 April 30 2018 19: 22
          +4
          I agree, an attempt to replace the understanding of the subject with rudeness does not paint anyone. Unfortunately, such instances abound not only on sites, but also in our daily lives
    3. self-propelled
      self-propelled April 30 2018 14: 43
      +12
      Interestingly, did anyone from the NI “correspondent corps” even hold weapons in their hands, especially the above-mentioned samples? another fi?
      1. pvv113
        pvv113 April 30 2018 15: 12
        +2
        Subtlely spotted! Really interesting
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. pvv113
            pvv113 April 30 2018 15: 20
            +3
            Without these, no muck in the world can do
      2. hdgs
        hdgs 2 May 2018 00: 03
        0
        Quote: self-propelled
        Interestingly, did anyone from the NI “correspondent corps” even hold weapons in their hands, especially the above-mentioned samples?

        It is strange why "hold a gun in your hands" is considered a synonym for "understand weapons"?
        1. self-propelled
          self-propelled 3 May 2018 11: 21
          0
          This is not a synonym. it's simple hold a weapon in your hands. the author of this article (experts who gave estimates) had the opportunity to at least LIFE the above-mentioned SAMPLES of pistols (I’m not even talking about shooting at least a couple of stores)? !!!
          1. hdgs
            hdgs 3 May 2018 17: 53
            0
            Quote: self-propelled
            the author of this article (the experts who gave the assessments) had the opportunity to at least LIFE the above SAMPLES of pistols

            Why see them? What can be learned from this process?
            1. By analyzing the performance characteristics of this weapon, we can conclude about its effectiveness and suitability for anything. There will be a million conclusions. And they are all important.
            2. Shooting from this weapon, we can draw conclusions about its ergonomics and the operation of automation. And what conclusions can be drawn when considering weapons? Unless to evaluate it from an aesthetic point of view. But this can be done from the picture.
            1. self-propelled
              self-propelled 3 May 2018 18: 56
              +1
              Quote: hdgs
              Shooting from this weapon, we can draw conclusions about its ergonomics and the operation of automation

              So we returned to the original question -
              did anybody from the NI “correspondent corps” even hold weapons in their hands, especially the above-mentioned samples?

              "shooting from this weapon we can conclude about its ergonomics ...", but not about the operation of automation. maybe I'm wrong and you can determine the principle of its automation by shooting from a pistol belay (of which I personally doubt very much personally);
              the effectiveness and suitability for something can be determined in combat conditions (or close to them), and not on the basis of the performance characteristics of this weapon;
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. self-propelled
                  self-propelled 3 May 2018 19: 26
                  +1
                  Quote: hdgs
                  Quote: self-propelled
                  You can determine the principle of its automation by firing a pistol
                  Why do I need him? I need her to work flawlessly

                  but what about your words: "... 2. Shooting from this weapon, we can draw conclusions about its ergonomics and automation... "???
                  Quote: hdgs
                  The effectiveness and suitability of small arms for anything is determined EXCLUSIVELY by calculation

                  No comments wassat
                  1. hdgs
                    hdgs 3 May 2018 21: 05
                    0
                    Quote: self-propelled
                    and automation ... "???

                    And the uptime of automation. What is surprising?
                    Quote: self-propelled
                    No comments

                    Those. how do you design weapons you don’t know at all?
                    It is sad.
    4. Kent0001
      Kent0001 April 30 2018 17: 18
      +4
      Yes, they’re almost right, it’s just that with guns we have a really big deal. There is nothing at the level of the top Glocks, Ceset, Beretta and Amerov’s brands. No way we have a balanced design does not work .... or all talented to the West left?
      1. Hire
        Hire April 30 2018 18: 00
        +6
        Tell me, is there anyone here who regularly reads The National Interest? I'm just curious: here they rolled out the TOP-5 of our worst pistols (why would it be?), And did they have the TOP-5 best? If not, then it looks like a dumb ordering on one-sided coverage of the situation.
    5. papas-57
      papas-57 April 30 2018 18: 12
      +3
      "5,4518 mm." Dumb experts, write correctly 5,45x18. Experts got it !!!!!
    6. adma
      adma April 30 2018 19: 52
      +3
      Regarding Dart, Nagan and Rook, I agree with the rating. So-so weapons. Of the others listed, I didn’t shoot pistols.
      1. sogdy
        sogdy April 30 2018 20: 46
        +5
        Sorry, "so-so" in the dash or had to apply? Nagan - exclusively field, Stechkin exclusively for bunkers - still not PM or Glock.
        It would not be clear for what purposes to consider 5 specialized pistols in the ranking of general purpose pistols. Or is it clear ...
        1. adma
          adma April 30 2018 20: 53
          +1
          Quote: sogdy
          Sorry, "so-so" in the dash or had to apply?

          No, the boys in the class told.
          Quote: sogdy
          for what purposes consider 5 specialized pistols in the ranking of general purpose pistols.

          And where did you read that this rating general purpose pistols? In my opinion, the author is considering the rating most unsuccessful pistols. And again the question is - unsuccessful in quotation marks does it mean successful? Then, in general, all this hollywood is in space.
      2. Dedall
        Dedall 1 May 2018 22: 23
        +1
        And I was lucky to shoot from everything except the Swift. I did not like only the Rook. At "Nagan" descent improves after cleaning and replacing the drum carrier. But because of the accuracy of his battle in the Republic of Ingushetia and in the spacecraft, they entered the UKS 1 distance of 25 meters. And the “Dart” cartridge is not so weak: 70 centimeters on a ballistic gel and 16 centimeters of wood through. A dreary only incomplete disassembly-assembly. “Rook” was inconvenient in holding and incomprehensible work of the descent - it worked differently all the time.
  2. Mar.Tirah
    Mar.Tirah April 30 2018 14: 37
    +21
    But how did Nagan get there? It’s not even a bad and trouble-free machine? Since when, according to the author of the American, how tight did the descent become the worst weapon option? Any weapon can be blamed in this manner
    1. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya April 30 2018 14: 53
      +11
      I don't like Nagan for his overly baggy reloading. Since the Nagan's drum does not recline, it is necessary to knock out the spent cartridges one at a time from the drum, and then charge the cartridges one at a time. In revolvers with a folding drum, all spent cartridges are ejected by the extractor in one motion, and when loading, you can use loading accelerators or clips.
      1. papas-57
        papas-57 April 30 2018 18: 19
        +12
        "In revolvers with a folding drum, all spent cartridges are ejected by the extractor in one motion, and when loading, you can use loading accelerators or clips." At least one brand of revolver, which so recharged the drum at the end of the IXX century. And after that, keep silent about Nagan.
        1. Golovan Jack
          Golovan Jack April 30 2018 18: 30
          +7
          Quote: papas-57
          at the end of the IXX century

          XIX. Other matters do not cause.
        2. adma
          adma April 30 2018 20: 30
          +7
          Quote: papas-57
          At least one brand of revolver, which so recharged the drum at the end of the IXX century.

          I understand the end of the 19th (XNUMXth) century?
          Then in 1877 "Vebley" with a tipping frame and the simultaneous ejection of spent cartridges.
          "Left" in 1873 with a folding drum.
          And the famous "4,2-line Smith-Wesson revolver" that has been in service with the Russian army since 1871?
          Keep quiet about Nagan?
    2. svp67
      svp67 April 30 2018 16: 31
      +8
      Quote: Mar. Tira
      But Nagan, how did you get there?
      Moreover, this is not a GUN, but a REVOLVER. But for "Nashchel" it is not so important
      Quote: Mar. Tira
      Not a very bad and trouble-free machine
      Yes, you cannot refuse this Nagant revolver. But I see in him only one drawback, it is not an infantry weapon. Due to long recharge time. And so the weapon is quite good, powerful and accurate
      1. adma
        adma April 30 2018 19: 58
        +2
        Quote: svp67
        not a GUN, but a REVOLVER.

        A revolver is not a gun? Thanks - laughed laughing
        1. svp67
          svp67 April 30 2018 19: 59
          +2
          Quote: adma
          A revolver is not a gun?

          No,
          Revolver (from the English revolve - to rotate) is a multi-shot small melee weapon with a rotating drum that serves as a store.
          1. adma
            adma April 30 2018 20: 04
            +3
            Quote: svp67
            Revolver (from the English revolve - to rotate) - a multi-charged small melee weapon with a rotating drum,

            Wow! Wikipedia!
            Then from there -
            Design pistols with a rotating block of charging chambers (drum) has existed since the end of the XVI century.
            1. svp67
              svp67 April 30 2018 20: 07
              +4
              Quote: adma
              The design of pistols with a rotating block of charging chambers (drum) has existed since the end of the XVI century.

              Everything is changing. Yes, when such a weapon was called pistols, but then there was a separation. The same story with machine guns, and with many weapons.
              1. adma
                adma April 30 2018 20: 58
                +3
                Ah, yes, yes, yes ... There was AK - it became AK-47.
                Revolver. A pistol with one barrel and several charges, for the most part with 6, firing one after the other, if desired.
                Dictionary of foreign words included in the Russian language
                1. svp67
                  svp67 April 30 2018 22: 35
                  +4
                  Quote: adma
                  . Was AK - became AK-47.

                  Thank you, I laughed a lot ... There hasn’t been anyone joking
                  Experienced: AK-46, AK-47.
                  Serial: AK, AKM, AK-74 ....
                  1. adma
                    adma 1 May 2018 08: 21
                    0
                    Well at least now it came to where to laugh. . Although it was necessary earlier. Where the "revolver is not a gun" laughing hi
                    1. svp67
                      svp67 1 May 2018 09: 14
                      +5
                      Quote: adma
                      Where the "revolver is not a gun"

                      You know, but here it’s not a joke ... In the Russian army, as before, the Soviet pistol is not equal to a revolver, these are two different types of weapons ...

        2. poquello
          poquello April 30 2018 21: 38
          +4
          Quote: adma
          Quote: svp67
          not a GUN, but a REVOLVER.

          A revolver is not a gun? Thanks - laughed laughing

          indeed, stupid journalists muzzle-loading pistols then forgot, and they are definitely worse than gun
          1. Aqela
            Aqela 1 May 2018 10: 31
            +1
            As part of this discussion good I would like to clarify with special specialists: is a shotgun with a sawn off butt and a barrel “cut off at the very least” short of, well, like, like with Mad Max, is it a gun or a sawn-off shotgun? Purely in terms of combat qualities, and many technical features, there are not many differences from the pistol of the century of 16th century ... recourse And what about “pepper shakers” with a block of spinning trunks? Pistol? Revolver? request
      2. poquello
        poquello April 30 2018 21: 34
        +3
        Quote: svp67
        Quote: Mar. Tira
        But Nagan, how did you get there?
        Moreover, this is not a GUN, but a REVOLVER. But for "Nashchel" it is not so important
        Quote: Mar. Tira
        Not a very bad and trouble-free machine
        Yes, you cannot refuse this Nagant revolver. But I see in him only one drawback, it is not an infantry weapon. Due to long recharge time. And so the weapon is quite good, powerful and accurate

        people, you went somewhere xs, well, what are we reasoning about? collector, gun and bucket cartridges = already a bit, the time when the gun was adopted by the Republic of Ingushetia was completely different, the concept was seen different than now
        1. Aqela
          Aqela 1 May 2018 10: 36
          +1
          In my opinion, well, I want to power experts to compete in terms of terminology without taking into account technologies and tactical features. There's also the topic of a crossbow with a pistol grip, shooting not with arrows, but with lead bullets, you can attract ... good drinks We stock up on chips and a beer. Butting expert monsters! drinks belay
          By the way, the above cover of the "Guide", in my opinion, removes the question, because surely specialists in the bowels of the Moscow Region have already discussed everything for a long time and issued a result request
          1. poquello
            poquello 1 May 2018 11: 33
            +1
            Quote: Aqela
            the above cover of the Guide, in my opinion, removes the question,

            not really, a “revolver” is so called by the principle of supplying cartridges — an established name, although there is a revolving feed of the barrel in some designs of machine guns, etc., a gun is an established name from “squealing”, a short gun for one hand, but since the main ones by type remained pistols of revolving and cage type of feeding - the revolvers and pistols remained in the name, submachine guns in the name have a “pistol” for using a short pistol-type cartridge
    3. RaptorF22
      RaptorF22 April 30 2018 16: 56
      +2
      Why Nagan? The best weapon is a muzzle loading gun lol
      1. jjj
        jjj April 30 2018 19: 38
        0
        Yes, and getting injured from Nagan is not a very pleasant procedure.
        1. Golovan Jack
          Golovan Jack April 30 2018 19: 39
          +2
          Quote: jjj
          getting wounded from a nagan is not a very pleasant procedure

          That is, in your opinion, Nagan - "great-a-aaaat-i-iivny"? belay
          Name at least one gun from which nice to get hurtI beg wassat
          1. svp67
            svp67 April 30 2018 20: 01
            +4
            Quote: Golovan Jack
            Name at least one gun from which it’s nice to get injured, I beg

            I can show that it’s true that it’s not always pleasant to get “injured” from it ..
    4. adma
      adma April 30 2018 21: 04
      +4
      Quote: Mar. Tira
      Since when, in the opinion of the author of the American, how tight has the descent become the worst weapon option?

      In what - in what, but in the revolvers the Americans can be trusted.
      1. poquello
        poquello April 30 2018 21: 42
        +2
        Quote: adma
        Quote: Mar. Tira
        Since when, in the opinion of the author of the American, how tight has the descent become the worst weapon option?

        In what - in what, but in the revolvers the Americans can be trusted.

        oh and in RI the weapons engineers were stupid, they weren’t familiar with the kolts
        1. Netzah Netzah_2
          Netzah Netzah_2 April 30 2018 21: 53
          +5
          In the Russian Empire, there were stupid generals who SPECIALLY removed the self-platoon in the soldier's version of Nagan. And the adoption of such a revolver, when there are a bunch of much more advanced models even in Europe, does not speak of a special mind.
          1. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya April 30 2018 22: 58
            +5
            The generals were nobles, blah-a-ah-borne. And for them, soldiers and non-workers were cattle, cannon fodder, which is cheaper than ammunition.
          2. Dart
            Dart April 30 2018 23: 18
            +2
            All your tirade speaks of your "special" mind .... wassat
            1. Aqela
              Aqela 1 May 2018 10: 44
              0
              And what does it have to do with it? Let me remind you that corporal punishment of soldiers in Russia was actually abolished in 1917 by a decision of the soldier’s committees. Suvorov considered a soldier a good cattle, some Kuropatkin a stupid and harmful cattle ... Among the officers who came from the rank and file before the First World War there were generally negligible (Aleksashka Menshikov, for example, and he fought not only on the floor!). And in the course of the "Imperialist" such movement became a necessary measure, because officers from the nobility were killed ... But the nobility, EMNIP, was less than 5% in Russia ...
          3. poquello
            poquello 1 May 2018 00: 06
            +1
            Quote: Netzah Netzah_2
            In the Russian Empire, there were stupid generals who SPECIALLY removed the self-platoon in the soldier's version of Nagan. And the adoption of such a revolver, when there are a bunch of much more advanced models even in Europe, does not speak of a special mind.

            soooo, we urgently smoke the advantages and disadvantages of the trigger mechanism of revolvers, when self-cocking the trigger force is still imposed by the cocking force, which affects aimed shooting, at the time when machine guns were still being taken, they didn’t show their significance, not even what other automation, including rifles in fashion with long barrels and so that it’s further and more accurate, and the revolver, by the way, was advanced in comparison with other Europe - special ergonomics for firing accuracy, special drum clamp, special trigger mechanism
            1. Netzah Netzah_2
              Netzah Netzah_2 1 May 2018 09: 31
              +1
              Well, let's smoke a materiel. In the officer version of Nagan, you can shoot and self-cocking and cocking one by one. In the soldier’s only cocking the trigger, which required additional details in the mechanism. In those same years, Europe used revolvers with a crank of the drum when the trigger was pulled, which greatly accelerated the reloading process. In addition, there were already revolvers with simultaneous extraction of cartridges. And in the Russian army and navy were. But for some reason, a revolver with an outdated design was put into service, and even with a specially degraded mechanism ...
              1. poquello
                poquello 1 May 2018 12: 02
                +3
                Quote: Netzah Netzah_2
                Well, let's smoke a materiel. In the officer version of Nagan, you can shoot and self-cocking and cocking one by one. In the soldier’s only cocking the trigger, which required additional details in the mechanism. In those same years, Europe used revolvers with a crank of the drum when the trigger was pulled, which greatly accelerated the reloading process. In addition, there were already revolvers with simultaneous extraction of cartridges. And in the Russian army and navy were. But for some reason, a revolver with an outdated design was put into service, and even with a specially degraded mechanism ...

                but it’s necessary to read the answer more attentively, in the Republic of Ingushetia colts were made, etc., and the constructions of all were studied, and the advantages described by you were not considered important advantages, accuracy is yes, and all this other crap lagged behind, so it’s at least a mistake to declare an outdated design , as silly as possible, for how long was this revolver in the service of years? Regarding the blocking of self-plunder, the logic is simple, the higher the estate, the greater the trust, for less shot from somewhere behind the shelter, and again, it’s more difficult to shoot from the platoon. On extraction, let's look at “revolutionary fighters” - it would seem where “advanced with extraction” is needed, of course the prevalence of the Nagan played its role, but, it was necessary to shoot more - they took two Nagans.
                1. Netzah Netzah_2
                  Netzah Netzah_2 1 May 2018 13: 11
                  +1
                  This revolver at the time of adoption in Russia was in service for 9 years. And it was a less advanced design compared to the revolvers that were released a few years before it. And in Russia and the USSR, he remained in service and in production for exactly the same reason as the 1891 model rifle and the Maxim machine gun of the 1910 model. Established production ... And do not care for combat and operational qualities, do not care for outdated ammunition, delaying the development of riflemen.
                  1. poquello
                    poquello 1 May 2018 13: 37
                    +3
                    Quote: Netzah Netzah_2
                    Established production ..

                    Kalash still enjoy
                    1. Netzah Netzah_2
                      Netzah Netzah_2 1 May 2018 13: 46
                      +1
                      Despite all the flaws. Only because of the established production process and reliability. Accuracy, ergonomics, modularity, maintainability - do not care. But "along the rail pierces."
                      1. poquello
                        poquello 1 May 2018 21: 01
                        +4
                        Quote: Netzah Netzah_2
                        Despite all the flaws.

                        yeah, and forgot nafig a bunch of all with virtues
                      2. Mordvin 3
                        Mordvin 3 2 May 2018 00: 37
                        +2
                        Quote: Netzah Netzah_2
                        Despite all the flaws. Only because of the established production process and reliability. Accuracy, ergonomics, modularity, maintainability - do not care.

                        Expand the subject please, antiresno otshchen.
  3. mark1
    mark1 April 30 2018 14: 38
    +7
    But I like Dart and it’s not very heavy.
    Here is the “Pernach” - really heavy.
  4. Storming the Washington
    Storming the Washington April 30 2018 14: 39
    +7
    tryndezh not believe sad Makarych’s strength! in NATO, the blasters will already be armed and we will mow them from Makarov like grass
    1. Cat
      Cat April 30 2018 15: 40
      +11
      Makarov pistol is fully consistent with the needs of the police. Simple, reliable, reliable. The bullet has good stopping power. The whole tuning is that it is desirable to change the handle to a more ergonomic one and with a store demand button under the thumb of the right hand. And that’s all!
      The army has other tasks and they need different weapons.
      1. Storming the Washington
        Storming the Washington April 30 2018 15: 55
        +1
        adversaries and the police have long had modern scratches! whiskas them in whiskey
      2. Whitesnow
        Whitesnow 1 May 2018 05: 33
        +4
        Why does a policeman need a quick store extraction? Except how at least one police officer shot more than one store in a row in a movie? And who needs a gun in the army? Officer to wear the outfit? PM in this case is quite sufficient. In an extreme case, the attendant makes two or three shots, to give an audible signal and after three minutes, the DP politely wonders who will not let them sleep. In battle? This is one of the commanders up to the company goes to battle not with AK? Do special forces need a good powerful ergonomic pistol? What ... except for the movie? To carry an extra kilogram of iron? Instead of a couple of stores to AK or 9x39?
        So all attempts to replace PM are just a design idea that did not subside. Once Desert Eagle seemed the crown of creation. But PM, in my opinion, is AK in the world of pistols.
        1. Sma11
          Sma11 1 May 2018 10: 19
          0
          Quote: Whitesnow
          And who needs a gun in the army? Officer to wear the outfit? PM in this case is quite sufficient. In an extreme case, the attendant makes two or three shots, to give an audible signal and after three minutes, the DP politely wonders who will not let them sleep. In battle? This is one of the commanders up to the company goes to battle not with AK? Do special forces need a good powerful ergonomic pistol? What ... except for the movie? To carry an extra kilogram of iron? Instead of a couple of stores to AK or 9x39?

          good good good
          If you think in your categories, then why do we need a gunner at all? WMD and go collect the "carcasses" of the enemy. Cheap and cheerful.
          1. Whitesnow
            Whitesnow 2 May 2018 20: 08
            +1
            You are mistaken here. The goal of WMD is more global. And small arms are needed for less mass killings.
        2. beeper
          beeper 1 May 2018 23: 53
          +2
          "But PM, in my opinion, is AK in the world of pistols." good -Better and you will not say!
          I fully support all your commentary, Comrade Whitesnow! hi
        3. hdgs
          hdgs 2 May 2018 00: 00
          +1
          Quote: Whitesnow
          And who needs a gun in the army? Officer to wear the outfit?

          Those. Does your officer not even plan to fight? Maybe then in his neck?
          Quote: Whitesnow
          In battle? This is one of the commanders up to the company goes to battle not with AK?

          This is in the Red Army and the SA. Those. in armies that didn’t have an army pistol in service.
          And in normal armies, officers go on the attack with standard weapons, army pistols.
          Quote: Whitesnow
          So all attempts to replace PM are just a design idea that did not subside.

          You need to learn. Then you will understand, perhaps, that PM is the official weapon of the subclass "police pistol". And he just has nothing to do in the army.
          Quote: Whitesnow
          But PM, in my opinion, is AK in the world of pistols.

          Exactly. That one, that the second in the army has nothing to do. This is not an army weapon.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 2 May 2018 00: 40
            0
            Quote: hdgs
            army pistols.

            Ooooh ... again Carbine here. I have disappeared. laughing
          2. Tank hard
            Tank hard 2 May 2018 21: 38
            0
            Quote: hdgs
            This is in the Red Army and the SA. Those. in armies that didn’t have an army pistol in service.
            And in normal armies, officers go on the attack with full-time weapons, army pistols

            A masterpiece! laughing
            Quote: hdgs
            You need to learn. Then you will understand, perhaps, that PM is the official weapon of the subclass "police pistol". And he just has nothing to do in the army

            Another "masterpiece"! PM - was adopted in 1951, i.e. immediately after the war, taking into account the vast accumulated experience in the use of small arms (including short-barreled ones), people who went through this war, and therefore had experience, instead of the TT pistol. and recognized the ADVANTAGE of PM before TT. But you certainly know better!))
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 2 May 2018 21: 41
              +1
              Quote: Tank Hard
              A masterpiece!

              You have the honor to argue with the gentleman, who is here trying to put the entire gunnery on English tracks. crying
              1. Tank hard
                Tank hard 2 May 2018 22: 10
                0
                Argue?! God forbid! Just reveling in perls. In fairness, I'm not sure about England, but Germany, Belgium, Austria, the Czech Republic, and the United States, gave the world a significant number of excellent small arms. good
              2. hdgs
                hdgs 2 May 2018 22: 29
                0
                Quote: Mordvin 3
                otory here is trying to put all the rifle on the English rails.

                Dear, not English, but international. On the very ones that the whole world lives on. "Everything is stolen before us." Those. everything was invented and laid out on shelves for a long time and not by us. Therefore, there is no need to reinvent the wheel.
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 2 May 2018 22: 55
                  0
                  Quote: hdgs
                  Those. everything was invented and laid out on shelves for a long time and not by us. Therefore, there is no need to reinvent the wheel.

                  That's it. Only you deny the Soviet and German riflemen. And dance from the American, as the ultimate truth. And here is the question. Can M16 be dismantled in four seconds?
                  1. hdgs
                    hdgs 2 May 2018 23: 01
                    0
                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    Only you deny the Soviet and German riflemen.

                    Is it like that?
                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    And dance from the American, as the ultimate truth.

                    Yes, you need to get used to this somehow gradually.
                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    And here is the question. Can I make out the M16 in four seconds?

                    What for?
                2. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 2 May 2018 23: 46
                  0
                  Quote: hdgs
                  and international

                  Here it is, Petrovich ... But I didn’t know ....
            2. hdgs
              hdgs 2 May 2018 22: 10
              0
              Quote: Tank Hard
              A masterpiece!

              Thanks for the compliment.
              Quote: Tank Hard
              Another "masterpiece"!

              Read on, there are many of them.
              Quote: Tank Hard
              taking into account the vast accumulated experience in the use of small arms (including short-barreled ones), people who went through this war, and therefore had experience

              As history has shown, 2 MV of Soviet strategists taught nothing. And I could not teach. Because she could teach only educated people. And this is not about them.
              From this and the ridiculous assault AK-47 as the main infantry weapon.
              And a policeman PM, as an army pistol.
              And much more.
              Quote: Tank Hard
              instead of a TT pistol. and recognized the ADVANTAGE of PM before TT

              Well then. The police pistol has an advantage over the sports one. Who would have thought.
              But what about the army pistol?
              But no way. For the entire time the USSR existed, they could not do it.
              And only the Russian Federation has already adopted the Army pistol cartridge Para and adopted a weapon on it (ПЯ). For the first time since the autocracy yet.
              Quote: Tank Hard
              But you certainly know better!))

              Certainly.
              1. Tank hard
                Tank hard 2 May 2018 22: 17
                +1
                Quote: hdgs
                As history has shown, 2 MV of Soviet strategists taught nothing. And I could not teach. Because she could teach only educated people. And this is not about them.
                From this and the ridiculous assault AK-47 as the main infantry weapon.
                And a policeman PM, as an army pistol.
                And much more.

                The reincarnation of Churchill, Browning and Pilsudsky all rolled into one ?! Chur me! Chur! stop
                1. hdgs
                  hdgs 2 May 2018 22: 27
                  0
                  Quote: Tank Hard
                  The reincarnation of Churchill, Browning and Pilsudsky all rolled into one ?! Chur me! Chur!

                  Yes, I already realized that you better merge.
                  1. Tank hard
                    Tank hard 2 May 2018 22: 38
                    +1
                    Wow ... I’m not doing spiritualism, sin.
    2. RaptorF22
      RaptorF22 April 30 2018 16: 58
      +2
      Correctly and better, as in the Mikholkov film with shovels and sticks under machine guns and drone strikes, we will defeat everyone soldier
      1. Cat
        Cat April 30 2018 18: 48
        +8
        Quote: RaptorF22n
        Correctly and better, as in the Mikholkov film with shovels and sticks under machine guns and drone strikes, we will defeat everyone soldier

        Change the training manual!
        Why the police officer with PM to run after the drone? Or does he have a chance to jump into the quadcopter of a site neighbor !?
        The police have a problem not with personal staff short-barreled weapons, but with the long-barrels of traffic police officers. The AKS-74U napimer has an excessively powerful munition prone to ricochet. The machine itself is inconvenient for everyday wear. There are other problems, but I don’t see the point to change for the PM police today. Ultimately expensive.
    3. Stas Snezhin
      Stas Snezhin April 30 2018 17: 00
      +6
      Quote: Storming the Washington
      tryndzh do not believe :( Makarych power! in NATO already blasters will be in service and we are from Makarov we will mow like grass

      Please do not call "PM", "Makarych".
      "Makarych" is just a low-power traumatic semblance of PMa ..
      1. Storming the Washington
        Storming the Washington April 30 2018 17: 03
        +2
        good yes I’ll meet my grandfather the next time, I’ll apologize to him
  5. beeper
    beeper April 30 2018 14: 48
    +7
    There is no need to publish a rating of the BEST ?!
    Some kind of moronic, "chernushny" rating was started, with the same flawed experts, in this "nationally interesting" publication ?! yes
    This constant desire for negativity does not indicate bad psychedelic "trends" in the editorial staff winked ?
  6. Non liberoid Russian
    Non liberoid Russian April 30 2018 14: 49
    +12
    on the other hand, for all its “shortcomings” in the 30-40s, they fed many enemies of the people with lead pills ... it’s a pity that the last ones are now sitting in the Duma and government
    1. polpot
      polpot April 30 2018 15: 36
      +2
      Your truth for such procedures, a shortened gun was great and if with a muffler
    2. Prisoner
      Prisoner April 30 2018 15: 56
      +3
      So the pestle was so-so, since it’s not enough. The best gun is PPSh. laughing
      1. Aqela
        Aqela 1 May 2018 10: 51
        0
        Quote: Captive
        So the pestle was so-so, since it’s not enough. The best gun is PPSh. laughing

        No. Heavy with. PPS - “better”! wassat And of the options, "paronoff more!" - “Cypress” from Afanasyev was not bad even in rather shaggy years ... Yes, and “Scorpio” taxied ...
    3. Netzah Netzah_2
      Netzah Netzah_2 April 30 2018 21: 54
      0
      Well, to stand on the knees of a man in the back of the head to make fun, a special skill is not necessary.
      1. Non liberoid Russian
        Non liberoid Russian April 30 2018 22: 27
        +5
        so that in the Arabs from the air, missiles, too, do not have to launch a lot of mind
        1. Netzah Netzah_2
          Netzah Netzah_2 1 May 2018 09: 32
          0
          Are you talking about Syria with its air defense?
          1. Aqela
            Aqela 1 May 2018 10: 54
            +1
            Well, that's not really yours! The Syrians are still not Arabs. Arabs have permanent residence - the Arabian Peninsula ... Well ... now in Egypt "incomprehensible" people live ...
            1. Netzah Netzah_2
              Netzah Netzah_2 1 May 2018 11: 56
              0
              Syrians are exactly the same Arabs as Jordanians, Saudis, Egyptians, Lebanese and others. If you want to talk about the descendants of the pre-Arab population of these countries, then if they survived, then only in the form of Christian communities. Copts in Egypt and Assyrians in the same Syria.
  7. polpot
    polpot April 30 2018 14: 50
    +6
    Gentlemen, foreign experts did not see that they loaded a nogan on one cartridge and did not see the soldier's version, which should take the last place
  8. Nikolay Fedorov
    Nikolay Fedorov April 30 2018 14: 52
    +6
    Quote: from article
    OTs-23 showed weak results, and was not accepted into service.

    In fact, he was accepted into service, but was not allowed into a large series. Small parties of this pistol went to the Ministry of Internal Affairs in special forces. The main question for this weapon: why do we need such a gun with a magazine for 24 rounds at a rate of fire of 1700 rounds per minute? Second - and the store is empty, and then what? Something Stechkin did not work ...
    1. mark1
      mark1 April 30 2018 15: 13
      +3
      Quote: Nikolai Fedorov
      Second - and the store is empty, and then what?

      Duck cutoff is - 3 shots, all for a pretty penny.
      1. Nikolay Fedorov
        Nikolay Fedorov 1 May 2018 11: 23
        +1
        Quote: mark1
        Quote: Nikolai Fedorov
        Second - and the store is empty, and then what?

        Duck cutoff is - 3 shots, all for a pretty penny.

        I see there is experience with him. Share your impressions.
        1. mark1
          mark1 1 May 2018 14: 33
          +1
          Quote: Nikolai Fedorov
          I see there is experience with him

          Litter - it didn’t turn out beautifully, as if I were ... an unsuccessful special. I have a friend who really shoots from everything that is in the Russian Federation, but the link to him is certainly not correct. Once again, litter.
  9. K-50
    K-50 April 30 2018 14: 52
    +6
    I didn’t shoot pistols, so I can’t comment on it at all. sad request
    1. RaptorF22
      RaptorF22 April 30 2018 17: 03
      +2
      And rightly thanks to our hoplophobes, we will soon not only have pistols, but also machines will not be needed laughing Will issue bayonet blades and forward to the attack fellow They are sure that weapons skills are not needed in principle am
    2. Aqela
      Aqela 1 May 2018 11: 03
      0
      Quote: K-50
      I didn’t shoot pistols, so I can’t comment on it at all. sad request

      They had to shoot from the PM in "partisan youth." So - I do not consider myself an expert, but there is some experience. The main impression is that the handle is not painfully comfortable. For a small palm it’s a bit thick, for a large one it’s a bit short. And the "pestle" itself at a distance of 5-20 meters is not bad. Jack the handle, play it over the sights ... Well, in melee "not enough five - not enough 25" ... wink "Patronoff pabshe", in my opinion, should be attributed to the training process rather request
  10. Guru
    Guru April 30 2018 14: 52
    +4
    Only he who does nothing is not mistaken.
    1. Aqela
      Aqela 1 May 2018 11: 04
      0
      Aha wink And the critics are mainly “sofa experts” laughing
  11. Masya masya
    Masya masya April 30 2018 14: 54
    +2
    I have a different question .. but what do they think we have? count yourself ...
  12. Altona
    Altona April 30 2018 15: 05
    +4
    Quote: K-50
    I didn’t shoot pistols, so I can’t comment on it at all.

    ----------------------------------------
    Also did not shoot, except for pneumatic. True, the institute had to disassemble and assemble the Makarov pistol. Makarov fits well in the hand. Western "expertise" they are often bought, it's like in films about Bond. A thirty-year-old super-spy ran with Beretta and then bang, changed his shoes for Walter PPK, out of nowhere. Sponsors have changed. I went to Aston Martin, then to Jaguar, then to BMW, by the way, BMW all these "brands" English BMW and bought five cents on market day.
    1. Okolotochny
      Okolotochny April 30 2018 15: 54
      +4
      With Beretta, Bond 6 never ran. There was Walter PPK, in the last films Walter P99 flashed.
      1. Captain45
        Captain45 April 30 2018 18: 51
        +5
        Quote: Okolotochny
        With Beretta, Bond 6 never ran.

        In the original source, namely in Fleming’s novels, Bond had “Beretta” 6,35 mm. That would not be visible under a tuxedo.
        1. Okolotochny
          Okolotochny 1 May 2018 14: 06
          +1
          Perhaps I will not argue. I watched all the films, unfortunately I did not read books.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 2 May 2018 00: 44
            +1
            Quote: Okolotochny
            Unfortunately, I have not read books.

            Bond, after Beretta's refusal, was offered a choice of TT and Walter. wink
    2. _Sergei_
      _Sergei_ April 30 2018 16: 23
      +1
      TT just falls into the hand. Like a native. But Makarov did not like. I think the only minus is the TT safety platoon. It is safer with a fuse.
      1. Sergey ippon
        Sergey ippon April 30 2018 21: 47
        +4
        PM is an excellent device, especially who is friends with it.
      2. Aqela
        Aqela 1 May 2018 11: 11
        +2
        Quote: _Sergey_
        TT just falls into the hand. Like a native. But Makarov did not like. I think the only minus is the TT safety platoon. It is safer with a fuse.

        Well ... Both Samuel Colt and Fedor Tokarev knew the topic good It’s another matter that the TT was made for the possibility of producing in any locksmith ... So there were a lot of controversial issues, including in terms of applicability, but in 1929, when they did it, in fact, there were no other solutions. .. sad yes
      3. hdgs
        hdgs 2 May 2018 00: 13
        +1
        Quote: _Sergey_
        I think the only minus is the TT safety platoon.

        Those. the fact that the army for a long time used an absolutely unsuitable pistol for you does not bother you? Are you interested in little things?
        1. _Sergei_
          _Sergei_ 2 May 2018 04: 51
          0
          I do not write that he is bad, I like him more than PM. And I consider him the best gun at that time. This is just my opinion.
          1. hdgs
            hdgs 2 May 2018 07: 46
            +1
            Quote: _Sergey_
            I like him more than PM. And I consider him the best gun at that time

            The best among what? Among weapons unsuitable for the army?
            Fully in the world there were high-quality army pistols back in 1MB. And during WW2 they were also missing.
            But in the USSR he was never deigned to do. At first, the TT sports pistol was in service. And then, the PM police gun. As a result, this issue began to be resolved only in the Russian Federation.
    3. RaptorF22
      RaptorF22 April 30 2018 17: 07
      0
      The same is true with air guns we will be invincible wink
    4. ventel
      ventel April 30 2018 19: 03
      +2
      Of course, I didn’t shoot with a pistol, but we had PMs and one TT in our weapons, and so the TT is easier to hold and holds in hand.
      1. sogdy
        sogdy April 30 2018 21: 16
        +2
        Quote: ventel
        so TT is also easier to hold and holds in hand.

        And Mnyu had TT43 ... with features ... also that hammer.
      2. Aqela
        Aqela 1 May 2018 11: 15
        +1
        Quote: ventel
        Of course, I didn’t shoot with a pistol, but we had PMs and one TT in our weapons, and so the TT is easier to hold and holds in hand.

        With what fright did the TT become “lighter” if it was heavier by almost 200 grams?
        1. _Sergei_
          _Sergei_ 1 May 2018 15: 55
          +1
          TT pistol - 0,854 kg without cartridges and 0,94 equipped. Makarov -0,73 empty and 0,81 equipped. But for me personally, when you hold the TT, it seems that it is easier. Probably it’s more convenient for me, or on the arm.
  13. Altona
    Altona April 30 2018 15: 07
    +3
    Quote: Masya Masya
    I have a different question .. but what do they think we have?

    -------------------------------
    And what do they count? Their machine guns are called shit machine gun. laughing laughing
  14. filalex79
    filalex79 April 30 2018 15: 10
    +4
    I agree to the account of PJ.
    1. Sma11
      Sma11 April 30 2018 15: 58
      +2
      Quote: filalex79
      I agree to the account of PJ.

      +. Perhaps one of the most unsuccessful replacements.
      1. hdgs
        hdgs 2 May 2018 00: 15
        +1
        Quote: Sma11
        Perhaps one of the most unsuccessful replacements.

        For the army, a bad army pistol is better than a good cop.
        1. Sma11
          Sma11 3 May 2018 17: 54
          0
          Quote: hdgs
          For the army, a bad army pistol is better than a good cop.

          For the army, a simple gun is better than a fancy one. The most optimal would be OTs-Xnumx.
          1. hdgs
            hdgs 3 May 2018 17: 59
            0
            Quote: Sma11
            The most optimal would be OTs-27

            May be. But only the one under the cartridge 9 × 19 mm. Other options (PM cartridge) are not suitable for the army.
  15. Vitaly Anisimov
    Vitaly Anisimov April 30 2018 15: 11
    +6
    I am not an expert, but this trunk has put the whole world on the ears ...!

    Even the bandits respect him ..!
    1. krops777
      krops777 April 30 2018 15: 30
      +7
      I am not an expert, but this trunk has put the whole world on the ears ...!


      TT ergonomics loses a lot and is also safe, but in World War II it was really about ergonomics and the lack of a full fuse.
      1. dzuar saubarag
        dzuar saubarag April 30 2018 17: 43
        +2
        Regarding the ergonomics of the TT ... Despite the rough appearance in the hand, it was surprisingly good: okay and oversized ... Although for a long time I was embarrassed by the long stroke of the trigger ...
    2. Prisoner
      Prisoner April 30 2018 15: 58
      +1
      Not so much the world as Russia in the 90s. what
    3. Sergey ippon
      Sergey ippon April 30 2018 21: 49
      +1
      due to the cartridge the whole focus.
      Yes, and the distorted model.
    4. hdgs
      hdgs 2 May 2018 00: 17
      0
      Quote: MIKHAN
      but this trunk the whole world put on his ears ...!

      This is when he had time? And how could?
      Quote: MIKHAN
      Even the bandits respect him ..!

      Due to the lack of a sleeve on them, and not at all because of good performance characteristics.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 2 May 2018 00: 24
        +1
        Quote: hdgs
        Due to the lack of a sleeve on them,

        What?
  16. APASUS
    APASUS April 30 2018 15: 17
    +5
    1 This is such a stripped-down material from the site Russian Spring
    http://rusvesna.su/news/1525077958
    2 Weapons expert describes what he does not understand at all.
    Nagan has a tight descent and, for this reason, he was ranked among the worst.
  17. Tank hard
    Tank hard April 30 2018 15: 27
    +4
    Of these, only "Nagan" seemed to be in service, if it was not in service, then why were they mentioned in the article? “Nagan”, for its time, was considered one of the best, and even then, pleased with its accuracy and reliability. They said that you would drop it into the water, get it, and continue the battle. However, I am not an expert. Personally, I like Makar, for my purposes I would not need more.
    1. sir_obs
      sir_obs April 30 2018 15: 47
      +8
      Nagan - an excellent revolver, many times fired from him.
      For the first time, Smith Smith was picked up, I was very surprised that he didn’t lock the barrel and that when fired, the gases would fly and if they didn’t remove his finger, they would yog and injure him badly. And in Nagan, the drum rolls onto the barrel and locks it up.
      1. Tank hard
        Tank hard April 30 2018 16: 14
        +1
        I envy you with white envy, I didn’t happen to shoot from either the Nagan or the Smith-Wessen.
        1. RaptorF22
          RaptorF22 April 30 2018 17: 11
          +1
          It’s impossible for us to believe that if the pistols were allowed, then it would certainly be a shot out for 136 they were very afraid that the machine was fenced, they said that there would be a war lol
          1. Golovan Jack
            Golovan Jack April 30 2018 17: 37
            +3
            Quote: RaptorF22n
            It’s impossible for us to believe that if they allowed pistols...

            What, familiar word come across? laughing
      2. Sergey ippon
        Sergey ippon April 30 2018 21: 51
        +1
        reliable and trouble-free, but it’s still more convenient for them to chop nuts.
        I personally didn’t really like the gun at dash.
        1. Tank hard
          Tank hard 1 May 2018 14: 42
          +1
          There is such a phrase - “for YOUR TIME.”) And chopping nuts is everyone’s personal preference.))
  18. sir_obs
    sir_obs April 30 2018 15: 31
    +6
    About Nagan they are in vain. Great revolver, almost indestructible
    .
    By the way, in the United States he was happy to copy, but under a smaller cartridge.

    Razarayatsvatsya based. Rebovov:
    The revolver must stop the horse from 35 meters, or from the same distance punch half a dozen inch boards. The initial velocity of the bullet should be more than 300 meters per second. The mass of the revolver should not exceed a kilogram. The caliber should be three lines - 7,62 mm according to new standards. The drum capacity should hold more than six standard cartridges at that time. Smokeless powder was used, and brass should be used as the liner material.


    There is an injury based on the Nagan, but the caliber of the bullet has been reduced to 5mm, because a standard bullet can still stop the horse.




    But what else can be done from Nagan
    1. Ased
      Ased April 30 2018 19: 43
      +1
      I also heard about the horse. Galloping definitely will not stop ...

      Quote: sir_obs
      Rebovov:
      The revolver must stop the horse from 35 meters,
    2. Korax71
      Korax71 April 30 2018 21: 54
      0
      Knowing Wiki Articles Honors You hi but one thing but !!!! 7,62x38 has no stopping action. 292 j at an initial speed of slightly less than 300 thousand pounds and a bullet weight of 6 grams. With such indicators, it’s not a fact that a person will stop from the first shot, 60 percent that it will take 2 shot. about a horse with its weight of 300 kg will be like an elephant grains.
    3. arlekin
      arlekin 1 May 2018 03: 54
      +1
      Quote: sir_obs
      The revolver must stop the horse from 35 meters, or from the same distance punch half a dozen inch boards.

      Thanks, laughed laughing These are fairy tales for children of primary preschool age, along with AK breaking through the rail.
      He closely communicated with Nagan for 2 of the year. With 35 meters he is not only a horse, he will not stop a person in a sheepskin coat. And in a pine barked log with 10 meters, a blunt Naganov bullet will leave only a small dent.
      1. svp67
        svp67 1 May 2018 04: 16
        +1
        Quote: arlekin
        These are fairy tales for children of primary preschool age, along with AK breaking through the rail.

        Well, actually it was one of the requirements:
        to the new army revolver were as follows:
        1. Great stopping action of a bullet. Since cavalry was one of the main types of troops, the “slaughter” of weapons at that time was determined by the fact that the horse should have stopped the shot at an effective range (up to 50 steps). I wonder how it was checked? Really, really shot a horse? In addition, the "battle force" should provide penetration of four to five inch pine boards.
        2. A small mass of weapons (0,82-0,92 kg).
        3. The caliber, number, direction and profile of the rifling of the barrel should coincide with those of the Mosin three-line rifle, then defective rifle trunks can be used in the manufacture of revolvers.
        4. The revolver should not be equipped with a self-cocking firing device, because it "adversely affects accuracy".
        5. The initial velocity of the bullet should be at least 300 m / s.
        6. The revolver must have good accuracy of fire.
        7. The design should be simple and technological.
        8. The revolver must be reliable, insensitive to contamination and poor operating conditions, easy to maintain.
        9. The extraction of sleeves should not be simultaneous, but in turn.
        10. Sights must be designed so that the path of the bullet crosses the line of sight at a distance of 35 steps.
        11. The drum capacity is at least 7 rounds.
        12. Cartridge with a flanged brass sleeve, shell bullet and smokeless powder.
  19. senima56
    senima56 April 30 2018 15: 33
    +2
    About our pistols we ourselves know everything .... Let the gentlemen from NI their, Americanosovskie, (and NATO) pistols discuss. "Swift", by the way, is very successfully sold in Europe. And the "problems" of the PY have almost been resolved!
  20. Ased
    Ased April 30 2018 15: 45
    +1
    revolver system Nagan model 1895

    I am not an expert, but many pistols were better then?
    1. Tank hard
      Tank hard April 30 2018 16: 08
      +5
      There were practically no “pistols” of that year. In 1893, Hugo Borchard designed a pistol, on the basis of which in 1900 Georg Luger designed his Parabellum. And in 1893, Federle, director of the Mauser company, invented the famous Mauser, which we widely know from films about the revolution. Nothing more special among the pistols, for that period, like - there wasn’t ...
      1. Ased
        Ased April 30 2018 19: 28
        +2
        Quote: Tank Hard
        There were practically no “pistols” of that year. In 1893, Hugo Borchard designed a pistol, on the basis of which in 1900 Georg Luger designed his Parabellum. And in 1893, Federle, director of the Mauser company, invented the famous Mauser, which we widely know from films about the revolution. Nothing more special among the pistols, for that period, like - there wasn’t ...


        Thanks for the help.
        We know that NI often writes nonsense, but with a Nagan they fucked up for sure.
        Compare these three trunks (to supply the army) - it is so clear why and what.
        Immediately - the German before the war - out.
        And when did the Mausers appear? That too ..
      2. Gato
        Gato April 30 2018 22: 02
        +1
        You can still recall the 1900 FN Browning and its clone Colt model 1900. They are somehow more compact in their compactness to Nagan than the same Mauser and Parabellum. By the way, the last two, it seems, even belonged to the class of carbine pistols.
        1. Tank hard
          Tank hard 1 May 2018 17: 52
          +2
          John Moses Browning, the ingenious (IMHO) author of a number of samples of small arms, an American by birth. His 1990 Browning, was designed a little earlier, but this does not change the essence. Nagan was in 1895, there were practically no pistols for that period, browning appeared nevertheless a little later. Interestingly, the 1903 Browning model, the so-called The "military model", chambered for 9 Browning Ds (line), was adopted by the gendarmerie corps in Russia. By the way, it looks very much like the future TT.)
          1. Tank hard
            Tank hard 1 May 2018 21: 57
            0
            Sorry, browning of 1900)))
            1. Gato
              Gato 2 May 2018 21: 02
              0
              By the way, gendarmes (and especially detectives) preferred to use revolvers. The cartridges at that time did not differ in wonderful quality, the skew of the cartridge case was a common occurrence. The revolver is more reliable.
              1. Tank hard
                Tank hard 2 May 2018 21: 13
                +1
                I can’t say anything practical, I didn’t live in those days, I didn’t belong to detectives. For what I bought, for that I sell it.))
                1. Gato
                  Gato 2 May 2018 23: 56
                  +1
                  Similarly, a colleague. But I recommend at your leisure, if not laziness and not squeamish, read the "Notes of the Gendarme" by A. I. Spiridovich
                  1. Tank hard
                    Tank hard 3 May 2018 06: 54
                    +1
                    Thank you, I look in the open, I always try to learn something new. hi
                    1. Gato
                      Gato 4 May 2018 20: 37
                      0
                      It's always nice to chat with a good person. hi
  21. Incomprehensible
    Incomprehensible April 30 2018 16: 23
    +3
    Quote: Letun
    I’ve been at VO since the 12th year, so then there were fewer empty, cumbersome, technically incompetent comments

    C'mon, frankly, you don’t need to pour it in!
    There have always been populists with couch experts and smart users who know the topic.
    And srach used to be tough and cruel
    1. Gato
      Gato 4 May 2018 20: 39
      0
      srach used to be hard and cruel

      Yes, it was interesting. Until the engine was changed and the ratings devalued.
      1. Gato
        Gato 4 May 2018 20: 41
        0
        One not the worst author, a big fan of aircraft carriers, delivered especially winked
  22. Thunderbolt
    Thunderbolt April 30 2018 16: 24
    +11
    The worst gun is the one in which the cartridges ran out.
    1. Gato
      Gato April 30 2018 21: 54
      +2
      ... or one that was not at the right time
  23. Altona
    Altona April 30 2018 16: 28
    +3
    Quote: Okolotochny
    With Beretta, Bond 6 never ran. There was Walter PPK, in the last films Walter P99 flashed.

    -----------------------------
    Well hello nafig. You at least read the source, the books of Jan Fleming. If you don’t know what weapon it was, then do not meddle. Initially, he was given Beretta. hi
    PS Ian Fleming himself admitted that he does not understand weapons. During the war he received a service pocket FM. In the hands of his hero, he put a no more powerful 6,35 mm Beretta 418, while weapons specialist Geoffrey Boothroyd wrote him a letter with a comment and advice. As a result, Bond changed weapons to the 7,65-mm Walther PPK of the 1931 model. In gratitude, Fleming called the weapons expert “Q” “Major Boothroyd.”
    In the 1980s, the Walther factory wanted to maximize advertising profit from the Bond for new weapon models. From 1997 to 2006, Bond had Walther P99. In the 2008 Quantum of Solace, Walther PPK returned.
  24. gukoyan
    gukoyan April 30 2018 16: 55
    +1
    But what about TT?
    Also not a very good instance.
    1. Dormidont
      Dormidont April 30 2018 20: 07
      +1
      But cheap, reliable and practical. And practical for wartime production
    2. sogdy
      sogdy April 30 2018 22: 12
      +2
      Which TT do you mean? 33, 37, 43, 53, there were others. All are used.
      33 with a star
      37 more "square", modified outlier.
      43 is similar to Parabellum-3 with shoulder rest (sniper case in French films)
      53 Chinese - the same, 90s. Domestic - close to PM.
      These are only those that were in my children's books.
      There is with an elongated and shortened barrel, with different shops, under a different canopy and a different cartridge. KB they are such KB, not a day without work.
      Quote: gukoyan
      Also not a very good instance

      For what job? What to do with the NATO spittoon in the steppes and mountains? In the undergrowth? A gun, as it were, not just to shoot himself. A smaller spread, a greater range of defeat suggest the occurrence of some inconvenience. Yes, and as if from their pistols it is supposed to shoot gloves, which is often forgotten.
  25. Vard
    Vard April 30 2018 17: 10
    +4
    Well, okay ... the fact that they can be bad ... but with great pleasure I would get anyone for personal use ... I would modify the file a little and once a week I would whip, disassembling and licking ...
    1. beeper
      beeper April 30 2018 18: 58
      +4
      Comrade Vard, IMHO, it's better to lick a stainless steel pistol smile (sorry, I could not resist this, "once a week", "oil painting" at the kitchen table ...)))?
      By the way, Fedor Vasilyevich Tokarev made his TT prototype almost by hand (with cross-chisels and files, using a hand drill and a primitive turner with a foot drive), in a home workshop, away from prying eyes ...
      The Master was an old hardener, he liked to MUCH to work with a file, with his own hands implementing what was conceived in the metal ... In the course of such work, new ideas for design and technology came to him ...
      Although the TTs finally “licked” everything in droves, during military trials and mass production, but it remained suitable for manufacture in artisan workshops (of the same Pakistan, for example) ...
      hi
      1. Vard
        Vard April 30 2018 19: 22
        +1
        I didn’t know about TT ... thanks ... but about licking ... it's figurative ... I have three sixth working discharges and I can handle the file ...
        1. beeper
          beeper April 30 2018 21: 57
          +2
          I believe, comrade Vard! Of course I understood yes that you are figuratively, simply, and to me, figuratively literally, such a funny picture was drawn ...
          Not only Tokarev, but also many of our well-known Pre-war Weapon Designers, liked to draft their ideas “without prejudice to production,” in the home workshop with their own hands — Degtyarev, Simonov, Shpagin ... Mikhail Margolin first fashioned everything from plasticine, and then, blindly, he dictated the dimensions to the assistant workers, who embodied the details of his construction in metal ...
          hi
          1. Whitesnow
            Whitesnow 1 May 2018 05: 43
            +1
            I wonder why they art. 223 not imputed?
            1. Vard
              Vard 1 May 2018 12: 03
              +2
              And then it was ... under Stalin, it seems like the flat-barrel barrel was freely sold ... and probably rifled not like it was now ...
            2. beeper
              beeper 2 May 2018 00: 54
              +2
              And this, comrade Whitesnow, is like in an old Soviet film: "... whoever planted him, he's a monument!" smile
              These designers worked for the defense of the country and therefore were especially registered!
              They could have been arrested without "Article 223" smile , at any time, for example, because of a manufacturing defect and the disruption of the finished product plan “through the fault of technical specialists”, “for wrecking” or “embezzlement (as, through malicious libel, they arrested Yakov Taubin, the creator of the first automatic machine-gun grenade launcher and a promising air cannon, which formed the basis of the famous Nudelman NS .. and HP ..) ", to attach to the" anti-people’s conspiracy "what kind of thread" military experts "," Trotskyists "or" left deviators ", or in the" case of the Industrial Party ", and much more for what-needed “article” would always be found, especially since many of them still served in the tsarist army, V.G. Fedorov was a tsarist general, and F.V. Tokarev was an esaul and commanded a Cossack hundred at the front ...
              Already the first officer rank gave personal nobility, with all the ensuing consequences ... right after the revolution, during the redistribution and "crystallization" of power in the Republic of Ingushetia, the bloody revelry of red, white, green, gray-brown-raspberry gangs and migrating teams of Latvian and Chinese thug mercenaries could even be shot for royal military awards found during a search-robbery .. request
              By the way, in 1918 F.V. Tokarev, who was working at that time as a foreman for TOZ, was arrested by the Bolsheviks and sentenced to death when the factory workers rebelled and most went to white, only a total shortage of specialist gunsmiths saved him from impudent death ...
              hi
              1. hdgs
                hdgs 2 May 2018 21: 35
                0
                Quote: pishchak
                and F.V. Tokarev was Yesaul and commanded the Cossack hundred at the front ..

                Yesaul, this is major. Hundreds (companies) were commanded by a maximum of PODESAUL (captains). Therefore, something here at Tokarev is not glued. Either he received Esaul later, or commanded something larger than a hundred.
                Quote: pishchak
                By the way, in 1918 F.V. Tokarev, who had been working as a foreman at that time, the Bolsheviks arrested and sentenced to death

                Quote: pishchak
                from a blatant death he was saved only by a total shortage of weapons specialists ...

                Who should be to continue serving the Bolsheviks after this?
        2. sogdy
          sogdy April 30 2018 22: 21
          +1
          Quote: Vard
          I have three sixth working categories

          Apparently, this is a city, and not so small winked Come to the police, a gunsmith must be needed. All the same belay
      2. hdgs
        hdgs 2 May 2018 21: 24
        0
        Quote: pishchak
        The Master was an old hardener, he liked to MUCH to work with a file, with his own hands implementing what was conceived in the metal ... In the course of such work, new ideas for design and technology came to him ...

        But is it possible in more detail about the work of the "Masters of the old school"? Knight file and hand drill.
        I would like to hear something good about his "products." And then, after all, in my humble opinion, they never looked at the level of semi-handicraft crafts.
        Maybe I missed some of his "products"? Don't know about them?
  26. The Siberian barber
    The Siberian barber April 30 2018 17: 16
    +1
    Interesting ... This 'expert' took these pistols in his hands ?? Shot of them? I doubt something ..
  27. urman
    urman April 30 2018 18: 02
    +1
    Who can explain.
    I had to hold in my hands, Nagan, and owls pr-va and before the revolutionary,
    I didn’t shoot the truth.
    Why does he, after pressing the trigger, pulls the trigger back.
    1. beeper
      beeper April 30 2018 19: 51
      +2
      Comrade Urman, the shoulder of the Nagan trigger is CONSTANTLY supported by a two-feather mainspring, which is why he doesn’t have an uncontrolled “failure” after the trigger is pulled from the combat platoon.
      You will more clearly understand the work of the Naganovsky USM in the video on YouTube, type in a search engine, read the type "device" Nagana "" ...
      hi
      1. urman
        urman April 30 2018 20: 55
        +1
        Thanks looked, understood.
        By the time Nagan fell into my hands.
        I already shot a lot from PM.
        And this garbage trigger seemed to me not comfortable and the platoon itself is tight and long.
        Sorry did not have to shoot from him.
        1. beeper
          beeper April 30 2018 22: 59
          +3
          Do not regret it! For Nagan, your hand and fingers need to be trained seriously, not like for a pistol ... only then can you really feel the shooting from it.
          If there is an opportunity, and there is such a desire to shoot from a “revolver” of a revolver, pay attention to the 7,62mm non-self-cocking (and there is no “rejection” of an adjustable trigger) the TOZ-36 sports revolver, designed by Efim Leontyevich Khaidurov, the development of the “Naganovskaya” circuits, B-1 sporting cartridges are the same in size as military ones, but instead of a lively shell bullet, they are equipped with all-lead “keg-bangers”, a six-shot drum and six rifling in the barrel, the barrel bore is deployed “with pressure”, the open sight is adjustable in height and direction.
          At 25 meters, offhand, almost a bullet hits the bullet, only slightly expanding the first hole-song, not a revolver! good You won't forget such a pleasant shooting in all respects on your deathbed yes , recommend!
          His clone TOZ-42, as usual, was "improved" by factory designers (including those that threw out "extra parts" of the drum), and converted to a short cartridge of "international standard", it lost a little in the reliability of the mechanism of "rolling and rolling" the drum (about I don’t know changes in the accuracy of the battle, I didn’t shoot it myself, I won’t lie), the USM design remained the same and this revolver replaced the TOZ-36, so you can still meet one and the other ...
          hi
          1. urman
            urman 1 May 2018 06: 35
            +3
            Unfortunately, there is no way to shoot from military weapons.
            Since 89, he did not hold military weapons in his hands.
            Although at one time, he was very fond of and almost spent the night in a dash.
  28. The comment was deleted.
  29. The comment was deleted.
    1. adma
      adma April 30 2018 19: 49
      +3
      The extraction of the sleeve did not interfere? The store did not try to put from another PY?
      My opinion is that this is not a combat pistol ... yet. Perhaps - the police, the National Guard, other FSIN and chop.
      But, basically, the rating is correct.
  30. Dormidont
    Dormidont April 30 2018 20: 04
    0
    "Z" - envy
  31. ser-pov
    ser-pov April 30 2018 20: 08
    +3
    Quote: bouncyhunter
    Again this yellow NI with its USA ... recourse

    All that’s bad is Russian, all that’s hefty, this is AM.erskoye .... But the whole world is fighting with our weapons.
    1. Sergey ippon
      Sergey ippon April 30 2018 22: 05
      +1
      not true ,
      PM, Stechkin is in the article that they are not bad?
      no.
  32. The comment was deleted.
  33. Old26
    Old26 April 30 2018 21: 40
    +3
    Quote: Hire
    here they rolled out the TOP-5 of our worst pistols (why would this be?), and did they have the TOP-5 best?

    Elementary Watson. They operate on a ceiling-to-finger pattern. That is, such reviews appear when the author looks at the ceiling and sucks it all out of his finger. Do not look for logic in this. She is not there a priori
    Here are the same TOP-5. In the first place is the “Dart” with its “weak” cartridge. Most likely, the authors from NI do not even know that this pistol was created to replace the PM and Ksenia in the Ministry of Internal Affairs system. And one of the conditions, as far as I heard was just such a "low-power" cartridge.
    The second is NAGAN. Of course, I’m not very good at shooting, although I myself was engaged in a “pistol” for several years in my youth. But is the EMNIP for all revolvers an unregulated descent? Or I'm wrong?
    I can’t say anything for the last three, but I always recall the words of Makarov, which were quoted in Bolotov’s EMNIP, "Small Arms" about "good" and "bad" weapons .. The meaning of these statements is as follows (from Makarov)
    "I am well aware that my pistol is not the best of all presented for the competition. But he won the competition thanks to the testers who shot several times more rounds from it than the competitors, which helped to identify everything in the early stages bottlenecks and flaws and eliminate them. "

    Comrades. Such reviews should be treated very calmly, as something inevitable? Well, you don’t react to rain or wind outside the window, especially when you don’t have to go anywhere. CalmЕit is not necessary, as Zhvanetsky said. Never mind. Such reviews are most often custom
  34. misti1973
    misti1973 April 30 2018 21: 49
    +1
    Nagan has a tight descent due to the design, which eliminates the failure of the descent during firing.
  35. Gato
    Gato April 30 2018 21: 49
    +1
    the worst thing about this revolver is the unusually tight descent

    Nonsense. Normal Nagan descent. And with a cocked cock - that's all. At the age of 12, my uncle allowed me to shoot. He worked in some railway VOHR, he had a 1915 Nagan.
  36. Disorder
    Disorder 1 May 2018 00: 00
    0
    laughing NI does not even pull on sofa experts. This is necessary. Revolver of the Belgian gunsmiths of the Nagan brothers to ascribe to Russia.
  37. Dmitry 80
    Dmitry 80 1 May 2018 00: 11
    +2
    We all know very well that the reserves of still Soviet PM and the remnants of APS will be enough for the next half century. Let the enemy not twitch ... with their "prospective" estimates. And the revolver of the Nagan system is a foreign weapon that has become Russian under the circumstances.
  38. Brigadier
    Brigadier 1 May 2018 00: 26
    0
    From this article, I see only one conclusion of the author - Russia must abandon all of its latest pistols and revolvers and urgently begin in the United States the purchase of a super-pistol "M1911A1" from the Second World War, 45 caliber.
    There are a lot of them in the US warehouse and America could sell it to Russia in unlimited quantities at a good price, because it simply dreams of equipping the Russian Armed Forces with reliable and powerful melee weapons ...
    1. Netzah Netzah_2
      Netzah Netzah_2 1 May 2018 09: 40
      +2
      From this article it follows that no one bothers to buy a license for the same ChZ-75 and is not steamed.
      1. Chukcha
        Chukcha 1 May 2018 10: 10
        +1
        By the way, yes, a good gun.
      2. beeper
        beeper 2 May 2018 01: 18
        +3
        No, a colleague of Netzah Netzah_2, paraphrasing the Red Army Sukhov: “It’s better to take a steam bath!” smile and create your own, domestic, weapon than buy someone else's! yes
        Only you need to approach the task of creating weapons wisely, with proper prioritization, based on the conditions for the actual use of personal weapons ... IMHO
        hi
        1. hdgs
          hdgs 2 May 2018 07: 49
          0
          Quote: pishchak
          "It’s better to take a steam bath!" smile and create your own, domestic, weapon than buy someone else's!

          And if the gut is thin?
          If you can’t create?
          Quote: pishchak
          Only you need to approach the task of creating weapons wisely, with proper prioritization, based on the conditions for the actual use of personal weapons ... IMHO

          Better yet, consider the real capabilities of the designers. Especially soberly looking back at the fact that in the field of riflemen was "created" during the USSR.
          1. Golovan Jack
            Golovan Jack 2 May 2018 07: 52
            +3
            Quote: hdgs
            And if the gut is thin?

            That's interesting, purely informative - how long will this reincarnation live?
            I bet a hundred rubles a week, who is more? laughing
          2. beeper
            beeper 2 May 2018 10: 15
            +3
            In retrospect, in the Union, with the vigilant and comprehensive care of the country's leadership, a very strong weapons school was created, and in the "shooter" too yes The school, which has had a (still noticeable) positive influence on the development of military small arms in everything "civilized and uncivilized" smile the world!
            Sporadic attempts (after the collapse of the USSR) to create new small arms were completely offset by the desire of post-Soviet gunsmiths to somehow preserve themselves, a priori satisfying any possible whims of potential "customers" request .
            This situation was aggravated by the "outflow" of weapons experts in the ruin of the 90s of the beginning of the "zero", the irrepressible interference of "effective" non-professional marketers in the creative process of creating and producing weapons and the absence of a "transfer of school" from the older generation of designers and technologists ... that is , neophyte designers had to stuff their own "baby cones" almost "from scratch", and even with meager funding, often working only on their own enthusiasm ... IMHO
            But, in any case, it would be unreasonable to talk about domestic gunsmiths that they supposedly have a “thin gut” to create and bring to mind (and mass production) really practical and reliable models of small arms that fully meet the requirements of modern combat, both combined arms and and paramilitary ...
            It’s just that the corresponding task was not set correctly and specifically (with a reasonable and comprehensively justified determination of the required performance characteristics, "tight" control of the deadlines and "credible" criteria for the final result wink ) in front of the gunsmiths, and the implementation of such a task was not really organized or ensured (including the selection, training and motivation of the personnel of designers) ... IMHO
            The amorphous criteria “at the entrance” provided an equally “dubious” (still remember these many-year “pitching” with quasi-selection (pushing by the principle of whose “lobby” is steeper? winked ))) "shot" for the "Warrior"? winked ) "result" on output "... IMHO
            hi
            1. hdgs
              hdgs 2 May 2018 11: 27
              0
              Quote: pishchak
              in the Union, with the vigilant and comprehensive care of the country's leadership, a very strong weapons school was created, and in the "rifleman" too

              Okay, we won’t be big. The narrow question is, what high-quality small arms army was made in the USSR by the representatives of this "school" (by the way, what are the names of the lights on the name?)? At the same time, I ask you to keep in mind that during the USSR, there was NOT a single niche army cartridge adopted by it. But how to create an army weapon without having normal rounds for it?
              Quote: pishchak
              A school that has had a (still noticeable) positive impact on the development of military small arms in the entire "civilized and uncivilized" smile world!

              Gee-gee-gee. Now, just rzhuenemagu?
              Who did you influence? To Colt? On the Germans?
              No, you’re just a joker.
              Quote: pishchak
              But, in any case, it would be unreasonable to talk about domestic gunsmiths that they supposedly have a “thin gut” to create and bring to mind (and mass production) really practical and reliable models of small arms that fully meet the requirements of modern combat as a combined arms

              So what did not bring? Back in the USSR, because then they were giving them tons of money.
              We look at the categories:
              1. Army pistol - PM, which is actually a police pistol. TT, sports. Where's the army?
              2. A service army pistol is missing.
              3. The main army’s individual automatic weapon is the AK-74 assault (not army) rifle. Before her, AK-47 (not fully automatic, but duplex).
              4. Army service individual automatic weapons - AK-74 assault rifle. Everything is fine here, but the niche of such weapons in the army is small. Yes, and the AK-74, this is not an independent design. This is an alteration of the AK-47, whose authorship is known whose.
              5. LMG - well, what kind of LMG can be on a 5,45x39 mm cartridge?
              6. Sniper - SVD only with a huge stretch can be called a normal sniper. Rather, it is a sniper that can be tolerated at least somehow. At the same time, the army self-loading has not been created for the entire time of the existence of the USSR. Failed.
              7. The rotnik is one, but in fact a machine gun of the GPMG category. Alteration, like AK-74, the "legendary mechanism", but this time with RP-46 elements. Alloy, so to speak, RP-46 with AK-47. The authorship of which is known whose. To consider it, like the AK-74, a domestic design, is the same as to consider the three-line "Mosin rifle." However, many people think so.
              Continue to continue?
              1. beeper
                beeper 2 May 2018 14: 25
                +2
                “Continue to continue?” - looks so “mega-optimistic” lol !
                So I understand that on your part a petty (okay, "not large-scale"!))) Holivar began - "soap, bast, our song is good, start over" ?! smile Carbine, my friend, what happened to you ?! wink
                "Whose authorship is known"? smile WHOSE AND WHO IS KNOWN? ... ridiculous You are a "theoryosaur" and a "Schmeisserophile," however ?! I remember these of your scholastic "Marxman-Shmarksman ..." from previous "reincarnations" yes and here’s "znach for pennies", again this your worthless boredom of "mouse swarming" that does not carry ANY ONE rational grain, you yourself were not so obsessed with going in cycles like this ?!
                Honestly, in your commentary, I see your “limits”, intentions and level of knowledge, and, alas, I’m not at all interested in discussing with you, no offense request !
                I doubt that you, such a complex gee-gee rzhak and know-it-all, need my "simple jokes not weak", if you are already stopudovy "special on all issues" ?! wink
                Do not “go ahead,” please, I'm sorry to waste my time on you!
                1. hdgs
                  hdgs 2 May 2018 15: 24
                  0
                  Quote: pishchak
                  Honestly, in your commentary, I see your “limits”, intentions and level of knowledge, and, alas, I'm not at all interested in discussing with you

                  Quote: pishchak
                  Do not “go ahead,” please, I'm sorry to waste my time on you!

                  Those. essentially nothing to tell you. Which is to be expected.
                  I'm honestly sorry. I thought maybe someone could tell me something new on this subject.
                  It's not meant to be. At least for now.
                  1. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 2 May 2018 15: 26
                    +2
                    Quote: hdgs
                    I thought maybe someone could tell me something new on this subject.

                    Duc already told you. "Come, Satan!" laughing
                  2. beeper
                    beeper 2 May 2018 17: 36
                    +2
                    "That is, essentially nothing to tell you. As you would expect." laughing ?
                    Test trolling, buddy! good
  39. Marconi41
    Marconi41 1 May 2018 09: 10
    +2
    It is not strange, but I completely agree with this analytics. Everything is just like that.
  40. Chukcha
    Chukcha 1 May 2018 10: 07
    +1
    Nagan is a Belgian product. Purchased back in Tsarist Russia, and received several modifications later.
  41. Sibiriya
    Sibiriya 1 May 2018 10: 29
    +1
    Quote: Kent0001
    Yes, they’re almost right, it’s just that with guns we have a really big deal. There is nothing at the level of the top Glocks, Ceset, Beretta and Amerov’s brands. No way we have a balanced design does not work .... or all talented to the West left?

    As for Yarygin, there was only one problem - the ugly quality of cartridges. TT had one censure - the loss of the store. With regards to Western models, I recommend watching the practice shooting championships, how stores are losing there. And our special forces do not use them, why do you think?
    1. hdgs
      hdgs 2 May 2018 00: 25
      +1
      Quote: Siberia
      I recommend to watch practical shooting championships

      The weapons used in these competitions are not fought.
      For sports, one weapon. For the army, another. For the police, the third.
    2. beeper
      beeper 2 May 2018 01: 23
      +2
      The loss of the store by accidentally pressing the lock button was ONE OF “complaints” to the TT request , "the devil in the details", alas! hi
  42. Aandrewsir
    Aandrewsir 1 May 2018 13: 45
    +1
    And he doesn’t want to name this “interest” a hundred of the worst American tanks?
  43. gippernano
    gippernano 2 May 2018 05: 27
    +1
    Well, at least with NATO pistols, not everything is so bad. Although they are, they probably lie, as always.
  44. Engineer
    Engineer 7 May 2018 12: 36
    0
    Dart is Stechkin’s last brainchild. This is perhaps the best army pistol of Russian design. Small-caliber bullet with a bottle-shaped sleeve specially designed for breaking through Kevlar body armor. I would look at the author of The National Interest article if he was offered to try out this "very weak" cartridge in a bulletproof vest.