Military Review

Su-57 and dancing with the wallet

117
Actually, the colorful Indian movie with dancing seems to have come to its natural finale. India left the joint project with Russia of the FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) project and in the dance moved a little further away, to France. For the "Rafal".




No problem, though not for the F-35.

What do all these dances say?

For some, the thought would be pleasant that the beautiful Indian engineers and pilots found so many flaws in the Su-57 that India decided to abandon this coffin.

I do not want to throw anything in the direction of Indian specialists, but: as stated in one of the statements, "The Indian side believes that the avionics, radar and sensors of the Russian design do not meet the standards of the fifth generation aircraft."

I wonder what was the basis of this conclusion? No, seriously, compared to what? As far as I know, India did not have similar joint projects with those who can really sift off an 5 generation fighter. There are only three such countries: the USA, Russia, China.

Perhaps, of course, the Indians, as world leaders in the development and production of radar, avionics and other assortments, sounded themselves. It would be understandable if radars, for example, for Boeing, were produced in Bombay. And so - amazing.

But the most surprising thing here is that the PAK FA somehow managed to somehow become the Su-57, but the miracle that was called FGFA from the PAK FA was not fashioned.

And why not?

And because back in the distant 2011 year, the Indians decided that the PAK FA is not the 5 generation at all. Maximum - 4 +. So, the Russian side was asked to change some parameters so that FGFA could become an 5 generation aircraft.

Quantitatively - 43. Many will now understand why Su-57 flies, but FGFA does not.

Honestly, all these claims did not look very convincing. How to understand correctly: “weak capabilities of armament”, “inconsistent stealth characteristics” and “lack of modernization component on engine use”?

The Chinese had to put the engines, they have the modernization potential - you will begin to rock! "Weak weapons capabilities" ... As I understand it, this aircraft alone had to accelerate with kicks all over the wing of a Chinese aircraft carrier?

In fact, everything is simple and transparent. The money ran out.

This is normal in fact. Crisis and all that.

And instead of a thousand Armat, we decided to arm one division. Then. In perspective. And with Su-57 the same. 50 instead of 250. No, what's up? A crisis. The price of oil is falling. Yacht officials need real estate.

Considering that in India there are more people living in 10, then having the opportunity to steal there more times in 10. Everything is logical.

Why only to cling to an airplane? The plane has nothing to do with it. But you have to save your face ...

No, something was on the topic. For example, claims on the first engine, or, as it is now dubbed, "The engine of the first stage." And the situation with missiles, too, at one time was very vague and uncertain.

And there is a Hindus, in principle, a reason for distrust. But this concerned again bringing to mind the requirements of a submarine and a cruiser.

But to finalize is one thing, but to develop is another.

"We" seem to be how to produce together. There is a Hindus. They allegedly produce “all together” the equipment. So this is said proudly everywhere.

Yeah ... believe it?

But there is no need. It is easy to verify, but India trivially assembles all its supposedly “jointly produced” equipment from ready-made sets. This applies to both aircraft and tanks, and other equipment.

On the one hand - simply, on the other - the people in business and it seems to be mastering the technology. And everyone is happy with everything.

To assemble a tank from a vehicle kit is, of course, both simpler and cheaper than a plane. The plane itself is more expensive at times, and its assembly will cost more. Plus frames that decide everything. Or spoil everything.

And, of course, the eternal Indian desire to save on everything.

Not surprisingly, since 2012, funding for the unfortunate FGFA has actually been stopped. Claims plus dissatisfaction of the Indian side with the delayed transfer of technology to the Russian side.

Our quite understandable. Why rush to transfer the most interesting, if there is no money?

In 2016, it seems to have agreed. It seems to have decided that funding will be conducted in equal shares, then we agreed to take on most of the R & D expenses. Well, adjusted the amount to 3,7-4 billion dollars from each side.

However, no documents were signed. Again, solely on the initiative of the Indian side.

From numerous comments it can be understood that the financial (first) and technical (second) problems finally quenched the ardor of the Indians. And, instead of truly joint development and production of the fifth generation combat vehicle, the Indians slowly came to the conclusion that it was easier to buy.

So the fifth-generation Indian-made aircraft was transformed into an export version of the T-50.

Created entirely for Russian money and equipped with all our equipment.

This is called "flew."

We look at the claims to avionics and sensors at the beginning of the article.

Summary: There will be no fifth generation fighter from the Indian Air Force. If the Indians "did not pull" at the price of Su-57, then you can not dream of F-35. It is more expensive. Plus, Americans who are doing well in the Indian arms market are unlikely to go to collect 35 in India.

Pragmatic guys from Israel, their drones, too, "together" is not released, by the way. Money for a barrel - and own.

Because dreams ended with the return to the purchase of hundreds more "Rafale". The plane, of course, is not bad, but not the fifth generation.

But if there is no money and no desire to wait, this is quite an option.

Of course, the most pleasant thing for the Indians would be to completely leave all the costs of developing the fifth generation fighter to the Russian side, and in fact to come to all that is ready and just buy.

But - a vicious circle - this again requires money, which is not. Such a plane would cost considerably more. And planes are needed tomorrow, as it turned out. Therefore, the idea of ​​FGFA under the disgruntled whipping of the parties is absolutely not solemnly buried, the fifth generation is forgotten and satisfied with the fourth generation.

True, this is nothing said. Knowing the nature of our Indian partners and the desire (and ability) to dance on a given topic, I will not be very surprised if, having once again bargained hoarse with the French, they will return to the idea of ​​FGFA.

Or (as an option) will start dancing around Su-35. Which is already ready and no need to wait.

Here we are satisfied with any option. Just because Su-57 is already flying and this fifth generation is being worked out on it.

Lost profits? Uff ... In general, it is difficult to talk about profit, having in mind the Hindus. And in general, if we talk about the release of Rosoboronexport, let him take his C-300 and C-400.

Then there will be no problems with Rafali ...
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117 comments
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  1. Wild_grey_wolf
    Wild_grey_wolf April 26 2018 17: 32
    +21
    What is this splash of chaotic thoughts. WHAT FOR ?
    1. venik
      venik April 26 2018 19: 23
      +9
      Quote: Wild_Grey_Wolf
      What is this splash of chaotic thoughts. WHAT FOR ?

      ===============
      "Confusion" - as it did not notice! "For what" is also understandable (at least - for those who know how to think!) ....
      And then, "what do you like, my dear?"
      1. Wild_grey_wolf
        Wild_grey_wolf April 26 2018 19: 31
        +10
        Get the badge for deflection, wise and thinking.
        It is a pity with your eyes a little badly, since you do not notice the important.
        1. AP3
          AP3 7 May 2018 17: 39
          +9
          I don’t want to throw anything at the side of Indian specialists, but: as one of the statements said, “The Indian side believes that avionics, radars and sensors of Russian design do not meet the standards of the fifth generation aircraft”

          Interestingly, and on what was such a conclusion based?

          Here is what the Indians themselves write:
          http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2018/04/india-put
          s-fgfa-project-on-back-burner.html



          This notorious photo has become the subject of heated debate regarding the T-50's radar signature, especially where it is most important - in frontal projection. The greatest contribution to the frontal EPR of a fighter is made by the reflection of radio waves from the blades of the first stage of the engine compressor.
          Modern stealth aircraft use S-shaped air ducts to hide compressor blades from the gaze of an enemy radar. EPR reduction occurs due to the multiple re-reflection of the radar signal from the curved inner surface of the channel and its subsequent attenuation, in which the radio-absorbing material with which the channel is coated plays a significant role. In order for the radar signal to reach the blades, it should reflect many times from the RPM walls of the channel, since the blades are completely closed from the front view, after which the signal needs to go back, reflected many more times from the walls of the air intake channel.
          Some aircraft, such as Super Hornet, use radar blockers that direct radio waves into the engine, where after multiple reflections partial attenuation of radio waves - since it is impossible to apply a radar absorbing coating to the engine compressor blades due to vibrations and centrifugal loads. This measure reduces the frontal EPR of the aircraft, but it less effectivethan the S-shaped channel, and can also lead to a decrease in aircraft speed. Many other characteristics of the T-50 also cast doubt on the low visibility of the aircraft.

          AIR INTAKE DETERMINES ECR OF AIRCRAFT IN THE FRONT HEMISPHERE

          Valery VOZHDAEV, leading researcher at TsAGI named after prof. NOT. Zhukovsky, Candidate of Technical Sciences

          For a traditional aircraft in the front and rear hemispheres dominant diffusers are the air intake and nozzle, respectively.

          https://www.aviapanorama.ru/wp-content/uploads/20
          16/08 / 019.pdf

          1. AP3
            AP3 7 May 2018 17: 41
            +7
            http://www1.fips.ru/fips_servl/fips_servlet?DB=RU
            PAT & DocNumber = 2623031 & TypeFile = html




            1. Wild_grey_wolf
              Wild_grey_wolf 7 May 2018 23: 00
              +2
              Quote: Wild_Grey_Wolf
              Here is the price of the analyst and the article.
              F-35 not interested! The MoD of India stated that they are fundamentally ready to buy Su-57
          2. Bad_gr
            Bad_gr 8 May 2018 00: 12
            +3
            Quote: AP3
            Modern stealth aircraft use S-shaped air ducts to hide compressor blades from the gaze of an enemy radar.

            This is one of the options. The Americans thanks to this S-duct (that of B-1, that of F-22) do not have a wedge for adjusting the air flow when flying at supersonic. As a result, the maximum speed of the F-22 is unlikely to exceed the speed of 1900 km / h.
            But with Tu-160, we went the other way: the shape of the front blades + covering them with a special composition. The blades reflect the radiation of the locator onto the walls of the duct, which absorb them. At least, I came across such information.
            1. Aviator_
              Aviator_ 9 May 2018 16: 29
              +1
              The tunnel air intake (S-shaped), of course, greatly reduces the EPR of the aircraft, but its flight data is also reduced significantly. A balance is needed here, and if there is one, it will be clear only in a combat clash.
          3. Conserp
            Conserp 12 May 2018 22: 55
            -1
            Quote: AP3
            Here is what the Indians themselves write:

            Ordering, designed for illiterate fools and stupid ignoramuses.
      2. Wild_grey_wolf
        Wild_grey_wolf April 27 2018 20: 13
        +5
        Quote: venik
        Quote: Wild_Grey_Wolf
        What is this splash of chaotic thoughts. WHAT FOR ?

        ===============
        "Confusion" - as it did not notice! "For what" is also understandable (at least - for those who know how to think!) ....
        And then, "what do you like, my dear?"


        Here is the price of the analyst and the article, as well as YOUR ability to analyze.

        F-35 not interested! The MoD of India stated that they are fundamentally ready to buy Su-57
    2. Vova Kabaev
      Vova Kabaev 7 May 2018 16: 56
      +2
      For a beer! And in the sense of why, it is written together: for what.
  2. NEXUS
    NEXUS April 26 2018 17: 33
    +9
    Hindus know that their arms market is one of the tidbits for all weapons-producing states. Therefore, these dances with a tambourine will continue, as we are talking about not small money and prospects. But the Indians have less time, maybe Pakistan and China do not intend to wait for them.
    1. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 8 May 2018 18: 38
      +4
      There is such an intangible factor as time. Even having a lot of money, when the Indians come across the 5th generation Chinese, they may simply not be in time, while having a lot - a lot of money. The 5th generation airplane is being done more than one day.
  3. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 7 May 2018 15: 15
    +2
    C-400 and Rafale? "Evening ringing ... how many thoughts he makes ........"
  4. antiexpert
    antiexpert 7 May 2018 15: 26
    +2
    The author did not notice that the theme of the 5th generation is a fake created for mega-dough dough by the Tang military-industrial complex, and the rest of the countries just foolishly got involved in it, until the S-400 appeared on the market, which reset this fifth)))
    1. seos
      seos 7 May 2018 17: 23
      +6
      Cannot be reset ... missiles and planning bombs have a range greater than the range of the S-400 or its analogues (at the moment, the shield loses to the sword and the gap widens)
      Moreover, it is easy to bypass areas covered by long-range air defense ...
      1. dumkopff
        dumkopff 7 May 2018 18: 59
        +7
        Not ... Well, I understand the missiles, but I can hardly imagine a planning bomb capable of flying 400 km.
        1. G A_2
          G A_2 7 May 2018 20: 23
          +6
          Quote: dumkopff
          Not ... Well, I understand the missiles, but I can hardly imagine a planning bomb capable of flying 400 km.

          Why 400 kilometers? F35 must deliver these gliding bombs to the required distance without being noticed. Americans are sure of this.
          1. lance
            lance 7 May 2018 21: 43
            0
            Amers reaction to the sale of fu35 Turkey. who said that s400will not flood the penguin? If the rhetoric of Israel does not convince you, then who are you on the pages in?
            1. G A_2
              G A_2 8 May 2018 01: 14
              +6
              Quote: Lance
              Amers reaction to the sale of fu35 Turkey. who said that s400will not flood the penguin? If the rhetoric of Israel does not convince you, then who are you on the pages in?

              Amer reaction is the most natural. They do not like the purchase of weapons by a NATO member from a country of a likely enemy, there is nothing surprising in this. What about Israel? Well, a little sweat more than usual, but will turn the Syrian c300 into scrap metal in this they have a lot of experience.
              PS Calling a serious weapon with the word "fu" you are likened to those who call equally serious aircraft with the word "ssu", "sru", etc.
              1. lance
                lance 8 May 2018 03: 14
                0
                therefore I call fu that this is a “carpet-plane” in the understanding of the pilot, and that the United States is going to do a hybrid of two fu speaks of their correct opinion.
                1. G A_2
                  G A_2 8 May 2018 04: 41
                  +2
                  Quote: Lance
                  therefore I call fu that this is a “carpet-plane” in the understanding of the pilot, and that the United States is going to do a hybrid of two fu speaks of their correct opinion.

                  Well, yes, he doesn’t do the cobra. Like Jackie Chan in the parades does not spin then fu. I do not argue. As for the hybrid, it’s a pitchfork
                  1. TermNachTer
                    TermNachTer 10 May 2018 09: 57
                    0
                    At the expense of the cobra Pugachev, you are in vain ironic. If it weren’t necessary, then no one would have dealt with issues of super-maneuverability - a controlled thrust vector, PGO.
                    1. Conserp
                      Conserp 12 May 2018 23: 05
                      0
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      At the expense of the cobra Pugachev, you are in vain ironic.

                      Some organically could not understand that a cobra for a fighter is like breaking a board with a palm for a karate.

                      "In a real fight, a karate will never need to break boards!" Like that.
                      1. Vlad.by
                        Vlad.by 22 May 2018 01: 05
                        +1
                        You do not understand the main thing - if the karateka’s palm breaks the boards - with the same success it will break the neck vertebrae. This is the essence of this training, but not spectacular tricks.
                        By the way, like a cobra, a chakra, a bell and other figures based on the properties of super maneuverability - to accelerate the capture of a target in a sector where the target is not visible, confuse the missile aimed at you, drive the signal reflected from your plane into the enemy Doppler radar rejection filters, if it tells you something. But how many applications of super-maneuverability in long-range combat, and even in close combat ...
                        So you can train karate by chopping air with your palm. Good luck in the fight
          2. Soho
            Soho 8 May 2018 08: 56
            +2
            Why 400 kilometers? F35 must deliver these gliding bombs to the required distance without being noticed.

            the same chewing, only the authors are different. Before you write this, at least get acquainted with the order of use of these ammunition.
            1. G A_2
              G A_2 8 May 2018 20: 02
              0
              Quote: Soho
              Why 400 kilometers? F35 must deliver these gliding bombs to the required distance without being noticed.

              the same chewing, only the authors are different. Before you write this, at least get acquainted with the order of use of these ammunition.

              And what is so abstruse in the order of the use of these ammunition. The plane drops a bomb from a certain height and leaves. The bomb flies planning toward the target overcoming a certain distance. Isn't it?
              1. TermNachTer
                TermNachTer 9 May 2018 20: 51
                +1
                Such a thing as range. But if a small engine is placed on the bomb and it has normal aerodynamics, then 400 km., It still will not fly. Therefore, it is called the planning bomb. And an air-to-earth rocket with a range of 400 km. - This is a long-range missile. Only a few countries in the world do.
                1. seos
                  seos 12 May 2018 09: 44
                  0
                  And where did you get 400 km from? these are piece missiles and they do not go for export ... in Syria they are not in China, there are none in India and Turkey, and so on ... in Russia and then they are almost gone ...
                  Planning bombs fly up to 250 km (NATO models), which is quite enough, at their low price there is the possibility of using a massive strike ...
              2. Soho
                Soho 10 May 2018 07: 09
                0
                Not this way?

                Well, now go on to the details. As always, the most important details
              3. Vlad.by
                Vlad.by 22 May 2018 01: 14
                0
                At an altitude of 10 km and a distance of 400 km from the S-100, the F35 is very similar to the color "invisibility" of my daughter ...
                Even suppose that at the 0th angle, his EPR is zero integers and x ... tenths. Even if one of the air defense radars, which is strictly at the same zero angle with respect to the penguin, does not see it. But the rest is that, otropin flooded in the eyes? And by the way, already from a perspective of 15 degrees, the penguin’s EPR climbs into meters!
                Dad, give me the red "invisibility" from the nightstand, please ...
          3. chingachguc
            chingachguc 11 May 2018 16: 46
            0
            if an airplane with its radar is not easy to detect the "invisibility", then for ground-based over-the-horizon radars it is not so difficult. Their power is much greater.
          4. Conserp
            Conserp 12 May 2018 23: 15
            -1
            Quote: G A_2
            F35 must deliver these gliding bombs to the required distance without being noticed.


            Planning bombs - two pieces (no longer fit inside)
            F-35 - one piece, at high altitude (otherwise the PB cannot be reset)

            F-35 at high altitude is perfectly detectable at the extreme range by all low-frequency complexes (say, Sky-M), after which it is wonderful taken for escort by high-frequency ones (the additional search for the "stealth" after the initial detection is trivial) and goes off with the first missile as it flies up closer.

            Bombs, if he has time to drop them at all, are knocked down by the "Shell" or "Thor" without any tension at all.

            What's next?
        2. Arakius
          Arakius 8 May 2018 01: 56
          +4
          Quote: dumkopff
          Not ... Well, I understand the missiles, but I can hardly imagine a planning bomb capable of flying 400 km.

          What is the EPR of the target that the S-400 is capable of detecting and capturing at a range of 400 km?
          1. lance
            lance 8 May 2018 06: 53
            +5
            defining and capturing these are two different things. here the role of the radar and the ghs and the eb. Today there is no confirmation that any aircraft has an EPR below 0,4. amerikazki about EPR 0,01-0,02 were scattered in Syria with all sorts of loops and other crap. The S-400E complex confidently extinguishes everything from 0,4 to 240 km without outside help (but this is an export option). another thing is su57 and mig31 epr 1,0 they are subject to 200 km, but there is a50u and then everything changes dramatically. with regards to f35 and f-22, without avax they are blind kittens, i.e. after filling Avax kittens with EPR 0,4, all of our fighters have felled for 180km. The United States does not confirm this, but does not refute it either. then what else is the argument? everything else is only in war, which both sides avoid, and with care.
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. lance
                lance 9 May 2018 19: 50
                0
                In connection with the refusal to resume production of the Fu-22, I can say for sure yes !!!!!
                1. Arakius
                  Arakius 9 May 2018 23: 56
                  0
                  No. Production of the f-22 was not resumed just because the existing fleet (under 2 hundred aircraft) did not have a worthy opponent, so riveting the third hundred f-22 is unnecessary
                  1. lance
                    lance 10 May 2018 05: 21
                    0
                    is it unnecessary to clip an airplane that claimed to be the main fighter against the su-57 with proven technology and block modernization over the years? yes 60 million $ resumption of production for amers? in comparison with the new development, on which the pentagon insists in billionths and after 5 years minimum. Americans do not understand if anyone has worked with them. amers have nothing against the incoming su-57 and even su35s.
                    1. NordOst16
                      NordOst16 10 May 2018 15: 18
                      0
                      At the time of the production of F22, there were no competitors and the threat of the Russian Air Force, in their opinion, did not justify the production of aircraft under 200 lyam and, most likely, with a hook.
                      And since ten years have passed since the development and money was available, why not create new cars with new technologies that allow you to increase performance and lower the price. The project may have failed in some ways, but this does not mean that the plane turned out bad. In addition, the F22 and F35 are mass-produced / produced, but our T50 has not yet entered the series and it is not known when it will go and whether it will go at all. In our country, too, the frigate is being built over how many years, and they cannot establish adequate air defense there, or apl Borey with ash, how many were built. But I do not think that, in any case, the last two turned out to be bad and they can not oppose anything from other countries.
                      And besides, the USA has an extremely huge and well-funded military-industrial complex (God forbid our Defense Ministry half of the volume of American infusions), so it’s better to prepare for threats and certainly do not underestimate the enemy.
                    2. Arakius
                      Arakius 10 May 2018 22: 35
                      0
                      F-22s started riveting a decade before the start of the PAK-FA program. And there are big doubts that the su-57 generally reaches f-22. Yes, and how many of those su-57? At least ten pieces released?
                  2. TermNachTer
                    TermNachTer 10 May 2018 08: 55
                    0
                    Is 12 V - 2 the same?
                  3. Vlad.by
                    Vlad.by 22 May 2018 01: 21
                    0
                    Is it Turchinov or Poroshenko personally said?
                    Or, suddenly, are you and Trump on a short leg?
                    Maybe then you will say how many of them, f-22, are so perfect that 200 can fill up all those unworthy - in a condition suitable for takeoff? And why?
          2. Vlad.by
            Vlad.by 1 June 2018 15: 43
            0
            What will be the EPR of the “target” for 400 km from the air defense system?
            First of all, it depends on the angle of the target. If it goes even with a small parameter to the SAM - there are METERS2, but not at all 0, hell of a tenth.
    2. NordOst16
      NordOst16 7 May 2018 21: 50
      +9
      Ahaha, the curvature of the Earth C400 does not correct, and besides, aviation is much more mobile. Air defense will never beat aviation.
      1. G A_2
        G A_2 8 May 2018 01: 19
        0
        Quote: NordOst16
        and besides, aviation is much more mobile. Air defense will never beat aviation.

        History confirms. Also swarms of cheap drones will appear
        1. NordOst16
          NordOst16 8 May 2018 08: 19
          +6
          Air defense is only a way to raise the price of an attack and help your fighter aircraft in the process of repelling a threat, as well as reveal the fact of the attack, but no more. As an assistant - yes, anti-aircraft defense can significantly complicate the life of enemy aircraft, but all air defense functions are limited to this
      2. Arakius
        Arakius 8 May 2018 01: 57
        +4
        Curvature does not bother him. S-400 radars are so powerful and perfect that they penetrate the earth's crust in a straight line (in any case, it’s easy to convince patriots)
        1. NordOst16
          NordOst16 8 May 2018 08: 15
          +2
          Why are you, under the influence of radar radiation, the earth’s firmament unbends and becomes flat
          1. lance
            lance 8 May 2018 11: 42
            0
            then tell me how to achieve 5m of spread when flying a dagger or caliber for 2000km, is the earth round? or do you think for air purposes it becomes even rounder at 400km?
            1. NordOst16
              NordOst16 8 May 2018 11: 58
              0
              I won’t say anything about the dagger, but about the caliber you can - grater + glonass. But how is it connected with anti-aircraft missiles?
              1. lance
                lance 9 May 2018 19: 54
                0
                I will answer with your algorithm the radar guidance zone, targeting the target
                1. Arakius
                  Arakius 10 May 2018 22: 40
                  0
                  Do s-400 missiles have an active seeker?
          2. vadim dok
            vadim dok 8 May 2018 13: 42
            0
            Earth is flat (C) NTV recently announced!
          3. vomag
            vomag 8 May 2018 13: 57
            0
            and becomes flat
            It makes no sense for her to unbend, and so is flat and does not spin
        2. TermNachTer
          TermNachTer 10 May 2018 14: 16
          0
          And tell me, what radar can detect a target flying at an altitude of 60 meters, at a distance of 100 km. ? State? Geyropeisky? Japanese or Chinese? Why is this scuffling? Any specialist knows the dependence of the detection range on the flight altitude and nobody will cancel the curvature of the globe.
          1. NordOst16
            NordOst16 10 May 2018 15: 05
            +3
            It’s just that some people are sure that the "non-analogue" air defense systems are capable of knocking everything down everywhere. And without adequate air defense systems, only expensive toys are not able to oppose anything to aviation and
            1. Vlad.by
              Vlad.by 22 May 2018 01: 31
              0
              Why juggle? It was discussed above about the ability of air defense to remove the carrier of planning bombs to the turn of the task.
              This is real? Quite!
              And shooting down a low-altitude target for 600 km is a joke about the elusive Joe. Let it first fly at low altitude to at least a distance of 100 km from the air defense system. If there is enough fuel and the pilot’s diaper does not overflow. And there they will meet him.
              1. NordOst16
                NordOst16 22 May 2018 08: 56
                0
                But besides the planning bombs, there are anti-radar bombs whose launch line is much further and, in extreme cases, you can always get data from space reconnaissance, radar services or even ground groups about radars and destroy them cr.

                And to fly for 100 km at a low altitude - the Argentines did so, the Israeli air force too. So without air support, the air defense is defenseless.
    3. Conserp
      Conserp 12 May 2018 23: 01
      -1
      Quote: antiexpert
      5th generation is fake

      Generational American advertising classification is a fake.

      And the generations themselves are not fake, jet fighters are pretty well divided into generations according to a number of criteria.

      For example - in aerodynamics.

      1. subsonic
      2. supersonic
      3. multi-mode
      4. swirling
      5. advanced swirl
  5. Tomato
    Tomato 7 May 2018 15: 28
    +12
    Rafal is not the fifth generation. But it really exists, unlike the Su - 57. And who knows how long the Su 57 will eliminate the "childhood diseases" after being adopted, which the F 35 had plenty of. This is a lag for a whole generation.
    In addition, with the growth of orders for the F 35, its price will fall, and what will the SU 57 series be like? If no one else buys it, it will be diamond.
    1. The Siberian barber
      The Siberian barber 7 May 2018 23: 46
      0
      And what do you suggest??? "Hack" the project?)))
      Over time, they will buy, and there will be enough willing people. This is provided that he confirms the stated)
      1. Tomato
        Tomato 8 May 2018 08: 27
        +1
        No one will buy. Too expensive pleasure, not many countries can afford. And who can afford not to throw money on a plane that is a generation behind.
        1. lance
          lance 9 May 2018 20: 04
          +1
          Tomatoes with the technologies incorporated in the Su-57V in the next 10-15 years, no one was going to sell it anywhere outside the Russian Federation.
          1. Arakius
            Arakius 10 May 2018 22: 41
            0
            Even the Indians? laughing
    2. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 8 May 2018 00: 17
      0
      Quote: Tomatoes
      Rafal is not the fifth generation. But it really exists,

      So if you need a non-fifth generation aircraft, then why Rafal? The most attractive in terms of efficiency-price ratio?
    3. lance
      lance 8 May 2018 03: 20
      0
      all these tales of expensive toys have already passed in a blink35, poplars, samrats, ash-trees, ash-trees still to list? and there is not a single year that 100% of the budget of the Russian Federation is mastered.
    4. NN52
      NN52 9 May 2018 15: 10
      +4
      Tomato

      In some way you write obscurely ....
      About F 35, you write about childhood diseases in the past, although this is not true, nothing has been eliminated there until ...
      And Rafal is a little old, only the paddlers give him away as a new one, and you are glad, a refugee from Russia, living in the Baltic ...
      With our Su 57, everything is already fine, and children's sores are also in the past ...
      And stop writing already about the "practically" free with an increase in the series for F 35 ...
      And about the lag for an entire generation .... That you said a lot .... Special in sprats ...
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. NN52
          NN52 9 May 2018 15: 28
          +2
          Tomato

          Oh, how ... We switched to personal insults, about the mind ... well oh well .. the refugee is excusable ...
          I know, unlike you, about 57.
          1. Pete mitchell
            Pete mitchell 10 May 2018 01: 58
            +2
            Quote: Tomatoes
            Trying to be ...

            Quote: NN52
            We switched to personal insults about the mind ... oh well .. forgive the refugee ...

            Half a Twowhich refugee: wounded animal, but wounded animals should not be left ..
        2. aiden
          aiden 9 May 2018 20: 46
          +1
          from the Baltic then it is more visible than anything laughing
          1. Tomato
            Tomato 9 May 2018 21: 59
            0
            Nevertheless, it is necessary to pass a minimum test for the presence of (at least some) IQ during registration.
            Today on the "reporter" article - "The AL-41F1 engine for the Su-57 fighter is ready to go into series."
            Only ready rather than already is issued.
            But (!!!) it turns out that he already has " children's sores are also in the past ... "
            Tell me, at the level of the drawings have not yet learned to bring to mind ??
            1. Golovan Jack
              Golovan Jack 9 May 2018 22: 01
              +1
              Quote: Tomatoes
              Tell me, at the level of the drawings have not yet learned to bring to mind ??

              From the article you mentioned:
              Successfully completed bench tests new turbojet dual-circuit engine with afterburner and thrust vector control AL-41F1. This was reported by the Ufa Motor Production Association, engaged in the development of

              Can you answer yourself, or help? wink
              1. Tomato
                Tomato 9 May 2018 22: 06
                0
                Jack, I see you're a cool guy, please don’t tire. Read something better, listen to lectures on the pipe ....
    5. Vlad.by
      Vlad.by 22 May 2018 01: 32
      +1
      Strange, like orders for a penguin already supposedly for 1300 pcs. And the price is only growing.
  6. Snakebyte
    Snakebyte 7 May 2018 15: 41
    +7
    I wonder what was the basis of this conclusion? No, seriously, compared to what? As far as I know, India did not have similar joint projects with those who can really sift off an 5 generation fighter. There are only three such countries: the USA, Russia, China.

    Perhaps, of course, the Indians, as world leaders in the development and production of radar, avionics and other assortments, sounded themselves. It would be understandable if radars, for example, for Boeing, were produced in Bombay. And so - amazing.

    This is surprising only for victims of PR from the MO. The rest of the world does not need to be compared with anything. Because the development is preceded by the technical specifications, to which the systems must comply. And if they do not meet the specified parameters, then at least call the seventh generation, the result will not change.
    In the fourth generation, it was not possible to solve a number of problems that had occurred earlier. So, the accuracy of combat missions remains virtually the same as that of third-generation systems. Reliability indicators remained almost unchanged..

    Kanashchenkov A.I. Formation of the appearance of aviation weapons control systems. - M .: "Radio Engineering", 2006. - 336s. ISBN 5-88070-095-X, Page 16.
    The specified author is not some kind of forum expert; he knows what he is writing about.
    Since 1991 - President of the Fazotron concern. From 1993 to 2006, he was General Director and General Designer of JSC NII Radiostroeniya, OJSC Fazotron-NIIR, and then OJSC Fazotron-NIIR Corporation. From 2006 to 2008, he was First Deputy General Director and General Designer of OJSC Fazotron-NIIR Corporation. From 2010 to the present, Anatoly Kanaschenkov has been an adviser to the general director and chief designer of the Fazotron-NIIR Corporation. The corporation is a manufacturer of radar and radar weapon control systems for aircraft and helicopters, as well as for missile-cannon ground and ship air defense systems.

    So why in the fighter "5 generation" avionics, sensors and radars can not remain at the level of the 4th generation? Just because you want it?
  7. DimerVladimer
    DimerVladimer 7 May 2018 15: 46
    +4
    Blah blah little article

    Perhaps, of course, the Indians, as world leaders in the development and production of radar, avionics and other assortments, sounded themselves. It would be understandable if radars, for example, for Boeing, were produced in Bombay. And so - amazing.


    India is the 4th world economy. And not the last country in the programming and development of combat control systems. And who knows what is going on in the scientific research institutions of the Indian military-industrial complex.

    although there are many complaints about purely Indian-made Tejas aircraft, the Indians are ready to export up to 1000 Tejas fighters, as Prime Minister Narendra Modi publicly announced in the summer of 2014.
    So there are some avionics and radars ...
    1. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 8 May 2018 00: 27
      +2
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      So there are some avionics and radars ...

      If my memory serves me, they bought A-50 planes from us, and Israel put them the stuffing. For some reason, not Indian.
      And if you recall that they ordered an additional batch of T-90 tanks from our factories, and not assembly at their enterprises, it suggests that they cannot even assemble assembled from finished parts, I am silent about creating something of my own entirely Indian.
    2. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 9 May 2018 22: 54
      0
      I want to inquire - and who will buy it if it doesn’t even need the Indians themselves? And another question - how much did they “sculpt” this “tejas” and how much dough did they drive there?
  8. mejik
    mejik 7 May 2018 15: 47
    +4
    A crisis. Oil price is falling. Yacht officials also need real estate.

    In a month, oil fell from 70 to 75 dollars. Yeah.
    The author is aware of the wishes of officials, but in the topic on which one water writes.
  9. Imobile
    Imobile 7 May 2018 16: 01
    +7
    And now, without whining, we analyze the problem.
    Avionics, radars and sensors of Russian design do not meet the standards of the fifth generation aircraft
    It’s true, here we work and work. Now the second, I worked a little in the defense industry. So ZP was often detained there, I found out why. A very interesting fact, all the agreements were written in such a way, if we did not fulfill the obligations, then a fine was immediately imposed on us, and if to us, then NOTHING Absolutely. Moreover, we might not have been paid (which we did) for products already delivered or an object built.
  10. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 7 May 2018 16: 07
    0
    1. Su-57 is really not ready yet and does not have significant advantages over the Su-30/35 (taking into account their modernization)
    2. The Hindus, like with the Su-30MKI and T-90, wanted to get technology on the ball.

    Conclusion: you need to offer a modernized (2-seater) Su-35 and bring it to the end of the Su-57 .. India still needs a heavy fighter and only Americans with F-15 and F-22 can replace Drying here. And they do not even talk about export (not to mention technology).
  11. TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 7 May 2018 16: 19
    +1
    And where do the Indians go? 5th generation aircraft are produced by only three countries. The Chinese will not sell - this is understandable. Yes, their 5th generation is still just an advertisement. They won’t transfer technologies, they didn’t even transfer critical technologies to their NATO sixes, so any small things. Only Russia remains. Yes, "Rafal" flies, but this is a 4+ car and no prospects
  12. sib.ataman
    sib.ataman 7 May 2018 16: 48
    +2
    Quote: Wild_Grey_Wolf
    What is this splash of chaotic thoughts. WHAT FOR ?


    ABOUT! Troll crept unnoticed! (as he thinks). Laid poop and admires.
  13. Sidor Amenpodestovich
    Sidor Amenpodestovich 7 May 2018 18: 25
    0
    "Like ... like ... really" To complete the picture, only three times "adequately" and "the same" are missing.
  14. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 7 May 2018 19: 41
    +4
    Article is a dummy. Su-57 is really far from ready and the Indians have questions for the money spent. As well as with us.
    1. lance
      lance 7 May 2018 21: 50
      +1
      Su 57v 2018 will be tested in the Russian Federation in the number of 12 pieces of engine of 1 stage. India will not receive the Su-57 even with the 1st stage engine until 2020 unless it repays the costs of the Russian Federation for research and development. or should the price of the aircraft fall 10 times? Su-35 went to Pakistan, wait for the results.
    2. lance
      lance 8 May 2018 03: 28
      0
      can you call the costs of the Indians? not negotiated, but paid.
      1. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse 9 May 2018 18: 56
        0
        What gave us for the costs of the Indians? The Su-57 was supposed to go into service in 2016 but there is still no engine, no radar, no weapons .. A prototype of some kind of Xxx is flying .. version but still not nearly ready for battle.
        1. lance
          lance 9 May 2018 20: 01
          0
          then what fought in Syria, went into the Israeli air defense zone and flies in a parade?
          1. aiden
            aiden 9 May 2018 20: 49
            0
            what flew in Syria is a fact
            Combat application-fake
            1. lance
              lance 10 May 2018 05: 30
              0
              how is it known? reported the puck? Or do you believe Israeli intelligence attributing the location of the Su-57 to the airfield for 2 weeks, when it was there for 3 days? he just repeated the route mig-25 and went back. all electronics worked properly
  15. Gene Concrete
    Gene Concrete 8 May 2018 00: 17
    +5
    Trying to make a good face with a bad game.
    Place 100500 None of Analogs In the world of 5th generation fighters that were supposed to at least somehow increase the potential of outdated aviation, the aerospace forces eventually receive one squadron of raw vehicles, which their main sponsor refused.
    I wonder what was the basis of this conclusion? No, seriously, compared to what? As far as I know, India did not have similar joint projects with those who can really sift off an 5 generation fighter. There are only three such countries: the USA, Russia, China.
    Perhaps, of course, the Indians, as world leaders in the development and production of radars, avionics and other assortments, thought for themselves.

    To shoot well from a machine gun it is not necessary to produce it in your garage.
    Hindus are one of the few buyers on this planet who conclude billions of dollars in contracts and, AND WITH THIS PAY WITH LIVING MONEY, always turn to them from the arms sellers.
    The author apparently believes that to sell non-analogous aircraft in the world to Angola under their own loans, although not so long ago the same loans were forgiven to her, and the Indonesians for palm oil. If so, I congratulate the patriots on yet another victory.
    1. lance
      lance 8 May 2018 03: 26
      +2
      India in this project can be called a sponsor with great interference, all of the funds transferred in the early 2000s went to other programs and weapons, neither India nor China provided the delivery of advanced developments. so do not fly in the clouds, the product is purely rf therefore and for a long time, but unlike amers true.
    2. aiden
      aiden 9 May 2018 20: 51
      0
      congratulations to you too. With a new homeland.
  16. arkadiyssk
    arkadiyssk 8 May 2018 08: 14
    0
    Quote: Siberian barber
    And what do you suggest??? "Hack" the project?)))
    ...

    Well, maybe such a sad option - it happened with the SU-47 Golden Eagle
    1. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 9 May 2018 16: 46
      0
      Su-47 did KB on its own, without attracting TsAGI, they saved money. And it turned out flying g.
  17. TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 8 May 2018 10: 45
    0
    I repeat. If the Indians want the 5th generation, along with technology, then this is only Russia. And the further, the situation will be aggravated. When the narrow-film ones bring their technology demonstrators to military use, it would not be too late for the Indians
  18. gaudin
    gaudin 8 May 2018 10: 58
    +1
    Quote: Bad_gr
    this suggests that they really cannot even assemble from the finished parts, I am silent about creating something of my own, completely Indian.

    Watch from 16 minutes. From 18 minutes: Indian radars are on submarines of the Russian Federation
    1. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 8 May 2018 11: 55
      0
      Quote: gaudin
      Watch from 16 minutes. From 18 minutes .........

      Thanks for the information.
    2. yehat
      yehat 8 May 2018 14: 22
      0
      all these are old technologies associated with compact low-power active underwater radio emitters
      as for the prototype of underwater communications, I think the American and the latest Russian submarines using acoustic equipment are able to exchange SMS not from 15 km, but from at least 30-50.
  19. nikoliski
    nikoliski 8 May 2018 11: 36
    +2
    The whole article is entirely from the author’s personal (biased) opinion of “if”, “why,” “it seems to me” - give specifics, figures, TTX comparisons, and not dances with tambourines and tears of an offended patriot “how is it, our pride, the dream about which a year ago they said that she was 10 times better than a raptor, they recognized it as worthless "
  20. viktor001
    viktor001 8 May 2018 13: 45
    +1
    strange article, strange comments,
    it’s not clear why everyone forgot about siliment of needles, the last modification of f15, there are approximately the same solutions to reduce visibility as the 57th, 57ka is far from f22 and not uf23, in the current configuration it is trying to hold out on the cheap version of f22 for the poor, while not very good

    the fact that the Indians refused - their right, if someone suddenly forgot, the Indians do not take anything for the benefit, all purchases of weapons were uncontested - it just propped up, it was necessary to change the trash for at least something modern,

    their refusal to have any analogues in the world is a very alarming call, in the sense that the aircraft’s potential is not so much superior to the competition that it would be so messy with him and pay a lot of dough, the price / quality ratio in the proposed product does not suit.
    Well, I think so, but in reality, anything can be there, the French lobby, the transfer of technical documentation to the same rafals, etc.
    1. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 9 May 2018 08: 52
      +1
      The plane of the 70s, can not be redone in the 5th generation. As if the Americans did not advertise their "needle". They are trying to Indians and f-16 and f -18 "vparit". It’s necessary to put this stuff somewhere. There, f - 16 are ready to sell together with the factory. But the Indians need a 5th generation car, because narrow-film ones already have flying specimens. The main thing here is that it would not be too late. And by the way, the Indians have very strong corruption component in tenders
      1. Aviator_
        Aviator_ 9 May 2018 16: 50
        0
        [/ quote] Indians at tenders have a very strong corruption component [quote]

        What is true is true. For several years now, one thing has been going on, according to which Indians are more and more reminiscent of bazaar merchants. As a result, any desire to communicate with them was lost.
        1. TermNachTer
          TermNachTer 9 May 2018 22: 21
          +1
          I mean that some comrades claim that the 57th bad airplane and therefore the Indians do not take it. And that Russia is the birthplace of corruption. So for others, corruption is much more abrupt
          will be Russian. I know what I'm talking about. So the Indians are well known in this regard. One thing is not good for them - their best friends from China, their 5th generation airplanes, though slowly, are bringing to mind. How would not be late?
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 9 May 2018 22: 44
            0
            Fuck them, with these brahmanas. The 57 machine is gradually being brought to mind, only these ksatriyas really want everything of the highest quality and together with technology. Wanting is not harmful to these bazaar merchants.
            1. TermNachTer
              TermNachTer 9 May 2018 22: 59
              0
              I mean, if the Indians do not want to buy, then everything is gone. That's when their roasted cock pecks, no matter how late it was. And the fact that the 57th "will bring to mind", I have no doubt.
  21. yehat
    yehat 8 May 2018 14: 10
    +2
    a small stone towards the author of the article
    who really can burn a 5th generation fighter. There are only three such countries: the USA, Russia, China.

    there are not three such countries. The Japanese have their own poster prototype ready. No one doubts that Germany + France + England is also able to file their prototype. Perhaps the Swedes too.
    1. viktor001
      viktor001 8 May 2018 15: 07
      0
      the question is who needs it,
      USA - need military dominance - f35 is already in the troops - the task is completed
      Russia - needs a peer of "success" for internal use - su57 "created" - the task is completed
      China - need peer to advertise its military products - already two types of prototypes are flying - the task is completed
      Europe - a new fighter, from a military point of view, why? is the host of the USA
      Japan - a new fighter, from a military point of view, why? there is a host of the USA
      1. Conserp
        Conserp 12 May 2018 23: 37
        -1
        Quote: viktor001
        USA - need military dominance - f35 is already in the troops - the task is completed

        F-35 is not in the troops. He is not even allowed to state tests.
    2. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 9 May 2018 08: 53
      0
      And how long will it take before this poster prototype flies? And there the Americans rendered considerable help.
      1. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 9 May 2018 08: 56
        0
        As for Europe. Remember how they "sculpted" the eurofighter. First, Frnatsia “set sail” and made a “rafal”, then all together “blinded” the “Eurofighter”, but this is by no means a masterpiece, although they “sculpted” him for about 15 years. I generally keep quiet about Swedes - Amer’s engines, British radar
  22. Dead hand
    Dead hand 9 May 2018 09: 12
    +2
    It’s like in childhood ... the boy brought a new car, but there are no others)) And the car is cool, it’s driving itself, it blinks its headlights ... and there will always be one, or even a couple of guys who .... T is garbage a car .. .Eka is unseen)) ... that’s bullshit))) ... because they don’t have
  23. trahterist
    trahterist 10 May 2018 11: 51
    0
    The opinion of the Indians regarding fighters 5.generation is as authoritative as the opinion of a Neanderthal man advising me which one to buy a PC or a car.
  24. chingachguc
    chingachguc 11 May 2018 16: 53
    0
    American enthusiasm for stealth technology will not bring them to good ... everything should have the limits of reason. The United States has sacrificed so much for stealth. Now their F-35 can not get out of the battle at will. And it can’t force a fight. The speed is too low. All hope for a first sudden blow. And how it really will turn out - who knows ... Super-maneuverability is also needed for missile defense. The most “smart” rocket will not be able to calculate the trajectory of the Su-35, somehow ... and what will happen to their “invisibility” afterwards?
    1. Conserp
      Conserp 12 May 2018 23: 45
      -1
      Quote: chingachguc
      F-35 can not leave the battle at will. And it can’t force a fight.

      Exactly.


      Quote: chingachguc
      All hope for a first sudden blow.

      And here's the catch - a sudden first strike can be done only on a very outdated or faulty aircraft.

      Modern radars see the F-35 from distances many times greater than the launch range of the AIM-120 (just as they see the AIM-120 itself).

      Modern OLS also see him well. STRs see its radiation. LPI only works against third-party RTR, but it does not work well against the target STR.

      Long-range missile combat is highly maneuverable; in long-range combat the requirements for maneuverability are no lower than in the "dog dump".

      The fact that the F-35 is not a tenant in any realistic and balanced scenario of a group battle against the Su-30/35 with a crushing score - more Australian simulations have shown.
  25. The comment was deleted.
  26. Salomet
    Salomet 14 May 2018 13: 08
    +1
    I’ll insert my 5 cents. Everyone ran away to bark about whether he would hit a S-300/400 F-35 or not.
    It's just that the author somehow looks one-sidedly at the Su-57. The actual reincarnation of the Su-35 with new stray.
    The 5th generation airplane, by default, should have the following qualities:
    1. Small ESR (f-35, F-22, Su-57 they possess in any way.
    2.Flying in supersonic without afterburner. (Su-57 in the future, F-35 xs, did not meet the information.)
    3. The principle of maximum pilot awareness with minimum stealth should be implemented.
    Here in the third Su-57 there is no information at all, from the word at all. Therefore, I can say that it’s too early to argue who will beat whom. Sorry, but Israel has already shot down the MiG-21 as a result of the fact that the pilots did not own all the information. And I think the sea of ​​such cases. Americans bet on receiving real-time information. A target discovered by one of the fighters appears in the entire group. Even On Flu !!!
    I will not say that the Su-57 will not have such quality. But!!! If he gets to the "dumping ground" and he has to twist cobras and barrels, then by default he screwed up as a representative of the 5th generation. For he should have received no answer to complete the task and leave. hi