Military Review

A country that was not. Features of Ukrainian political geography

108
History knows two periods of "Ukrainian independence." The first - after the collapse of the Russian Empire, during the Civil War and total political chaos, and the second - after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Both periods are associated with wars and tragedies, with "external control" and the total economic crisis. But the modern Kiev regime needs political myths that would support the “Ukraine” project, contribute to the design of Ukrainian political identity as the antipode of Russian identity.


One of the cornerstones of Ukraine’s ideology is the myth of the antiquity of Ukrainian civilization. Yes, this is exactly the way Ukrainians are distinguished not just as a separate nation, but as a whole civilization, which by its antiquity can easily compete with the builders of the Egyptian pyramids or Babylonian ziggurats. Attributing extra millennia to our peoples is a very common phenomenon in the post-Soviet space. It is typical of small or playing a minor role in world politics and the culture of nations who want to amuse themselves so nationally. When the future is not clear and there is nothing to boast in the present, it remains to recall the great past. Or invent it if it was not there.

A country that was not. Features of Ukrainian political geography


The project "Ukraine" appeared a little more than a century ago at the initiative of the military-political circles of Austria-Hungary. In Vienna, they were very afraid of the strengthening of the Russian Empire, and most importantly, of the spread of St. Petersburg’s influence on the Slavic world of Eastern and Southern Europe. The Habsburg Empire largely consisted of Slavic - Polish, Czech, Slovak, Croatian, Slovenian, Serbian, and Ruthenian lands. Naturally, the Austro-Hungarian leadership was concerned about the growing self-consciousness of the Slavs, the pan-Slavic sentiments that echoed sympathy for the Russian Empire. Therefore, one of the main tasks of Austria-Hungary for many years was the ideological confrontation of Russia in the struggle for the minds of the Slavs of Eastern Europe. The construction of Ukrainian identity has played a significant role in this ideological struggle. The Austro-Hungarian leadership hoped that by creating a Ukrainian nation, it would be able to split the Russian population of Little Russia and thereby sow discord on the western borders of the Russian Empire.

As you know, Professor Mikhail Hrushevsky played a key role in the development of the Ukraine project. He was a unique person who managed to get an education and work in the Russian Empire, faithfully serving the interests of Austria-Hungary, then visiting the chairman of the Ukrainian Central Council and academician of the USSR Academy of Sciences. Already this cursory overview of the life of Grushevsky shows that he was not only and not so much a scientist as an ideological and political adventurer, able very quickly and imperceptibly to others to turn to where the wind of change blows. Grushevsky, by the way, was not even shot during the years of the Stalinist repressions - he managed to die a natural death in the 1934 year, in the status of a Soviet academician. Shortly before Hrushevsky’s death, however, he was arrested, but soon released, but all his colleagues and students were repressed at the same time. Isn't that a strange coincidence?

At the end of the 19th century in Austria-Hungary, it was decided to create from the local Russian population, living in Galicia and Transcarpathia, a new people - Ruthenians or Ruthenians. It was not so simple, because the Russian population was burdened by Russia, professed Orthodoxy and did not trust the Austrian government very much. Therefore, the Austro-Hungarians began by simply bribing a part of the Russian intelligentsia. It turned out among the bribed and Grushevsky.

In 1890, Mikhail Grushevsky graduated from the Faculty of History and Philology of Kiev University, receiving a gold medal for his work “An Essay on the History of Kiev Land from the Death of Yaroslav to the End of the XIVth Century.” In 1894, he defended his master's thesis “Barsky eldership. Historical essays, and in the same year, 28-years old, was invited to the University of Lviv - the Austro-Hungarian government kindly provided Mikhail Hrushevsky with a university department and a solid salary. The Department of General History with a special overview of the history of Eastern Europe, which was headed by Grushevsky, was opened specifically for him and was created with one sole purpose - to pseudoscientific substantiation of the otherness of the Slavic population of the south-western outskirts of the Russian Empire, emphasizing their separate history from Russia and the need for special political path. The young historian, who received awards yesterday at the Russian Kiev University, safely “pereobulsya” and enthusiastically engaged in the construction of a new people - Ukrainians. By the way, it was Hrushevsky who became the author of the very word “Ukraine”, which now should have meant the south-western part of the Russian Empire.

Russian counterintelligence reported that the Austro-Hungarian intelligence services provided Mikhail Hrushevsky with a generous financial reward, which he spends on both his personal needs and on the creation and activities of Ukrainian national democratic organizations. It is noteworthy that at the beginning of the twentieth century, a professor at the University of Lviv Hrushevsky, being an Austrian citizen, begins to constantly go and see the Russian empire - to the cities of Little Russia. Obviously, the creation of anti-Russian nationalist organizations in Little Russian cities becomes its main task. It did not affect the visits of Grushevsky and the beginning of the First World War, in which Austria-Hungary acted in alliance with Germany against Russia.

During a regular visit to Kiev in 1914, Mikhail Hrushevsky was arrested. He was exiled to Simbirsk, then to Kazan, but Grushevsky managed to win over the liberal-minded part of the Russian elite, who asked for him and, eventually, Grushevsky was allowed to live in Moscow. While the Russian soldiers fought against the Austro-Hungarian troops, the Austrian subject Mikhail Hrushevsky lived in the “white-stone” and felt great, who also managed to write several propaganda works. When the February revolution took place in Russia, Hrushevsky left for Kiev, where else 4 (17) in March 1917, the creation of the Central Rada of Ukraine was announced, and 7 (20) in March, Mikhail Grushevsky was elected in absentia. 14 (27) March, Mikhail Hrushevsky, returning from Moscow, immediately joined the work of the Central Council.

Here we turn to one of the most interesting aspects of the history of the Ukraine project - the cartographic one. The Ukraine project began to be developed in Austria-Hungary several decades before the February Revolution, but no one could define the clear boundaries of Ukraine. Since Galicia and Transcarpathia were part of Austria-Hungary, of course, there was no question of any Ukrainian state in these territories. Therefore, by Ukraine they understood exclusively the lands of Little Russia. Grushevsky and the Central Council demanded that the territories of the former Kiev, Chernihiv, Podolsk, Volyn and Poltava provinces of the Russian Empire, that is, Little Russia proper, be transferred under autonomous control. This territory was surrounded on three sides by the lands of the Russian Empire, therefore, as it seemed, it did not pose a serious threat to Russia. However, then the appetites of the Central Council began to grow rapidly. So, voices were heard in support of the Ukrainianization of the Black Sea fleet and even parts of the ships of the Baltic Fleet, the idea of ​​creating a Ukrainian national army gained popularity. Then the Central Council began to demand the extension of autonomy to Slobozhanshchina, Novorossia and the Kuban.



28 June (11 July) A delegation of the Russian Provisional Government headed by Alexander Kerensky and Irakli Tsereteli arrived in Kiev on July 9. An agreement was drawn up, made on the basis of mutual concessions. Rada refused claims to Novorossia, Sloboda and Kuban, and the Provisional Government recognized the Supreme authority in Ukraine and agreed with the autonomy of Ukraine. It was a rather rash step by the Provisional Government, unleashing the hands of the Ukrainian nationalists in the future. When October 1917 (November 25) 7 was the October Revolution in Petrograd, the Central Rada responded to this event very quickly. Already 1917 of October (29 of November) 11 of the year The General Secretariat of the Central Council extended its authority not only to the territory of the Ukrainian (Little Russian) autonomy, but also to the Kholm province, the province of Novorossia (Kharkov, Kherson and Yekaterinoslav provinces), part of the Tauride province, Kursk and Voronezh provinces.

So openly were the claims of ideologists and practitioners of the “Ukrainians” not only on the Little Russian lands, but also on all the neighboring lands of South-Western Russia. It would seem, what does Little Russia have to do with New Russia? The lands of New Russia were mastered by the Russian Empire and became part of it as a result of victories over the Crimean Khanate and Ottoman Turkey. In addition to the Ukrainians, Great Russians, Greeks, Serbs, Vlachs, Arnauts, Bulgarians, Germans and representatives of many other nations were compactly settled in Novorossia. Without Russia, the lands of Novorossia would have remained a part of the Crimean Khanate. The same applies to the Tauride province. As for the Kholm Province, it became part of the Russian Empire as a result of the division of the Commonwealth. That is, again, the entry of the province into the Russian state had nothing to do with the hypothetical “proto-Ukraine”.

In fact, the Central Council in 1917-1918. fulfilled completely traitorous role in relation to Russia, taking advantage of the political crisis and war. It was for this role that the Ukrainian nationalists were trained by their Austro-Hungarian and German masters. No wonder the chief of staff of the commander of the Eastern Front, Major General Max Hoffman, in 1919, said that he had created Ukraine in order to be able to make peace with at least part of Russia. And it really was. The project "Ukraine", which originated in Austria-Hungary and then hotly supported by Germany, was created precisely for the collapse of the Russian state and the cutting off of the beneficial and strategically important south-western lands.

In Vienna and Berlin, they dreamed of the fertile lands of Little Russia, the Black Sea coast, the resources and wealth that would become available if either they occupied the south-western part of Russia or submitted it to their interests through the creation of a puppet government. Even before the First World War in Lviv - this stronghold of the project "Ukraine" - Stepan Rudnytsky's "Short Geography of Ukraine" was published. It contained an extensive list of “Ukrainian” lands, which even modern theorists of “Ukrainians” can envy. Rudnitsky attributed Ukraine to Little Russia, Novorossia, Crimea, Slobozhanschyna, Kuban, Azov and even the western coast of the Caspian Sea. In the German general staff, the Ukrainian territory was extended to the Volga region and even included Orenburg with its environs and the Caucasus.



However, in reality, the German command did not need an independent Ukraine. Under the control of the German occupation forces, the Ukrainian power Pavel Skoropadsky was created, which even created its own “army” —the division of the Sich riflemen. At the same time, German and Austro-Hungarian troops occupied most of the territory of modern Ukraine. The "independent" government with the occupation and the robbery of their own lands agreed without any resistance. However, November 4 1918 was a revolution in Germany. Kaiser Wilhelm fled, and December 14 1918, hetman Pavel Skoropadsky himself fled from the territory of Ukraine. However, the vacant place of the ruler of Ukraine was not long. Soon, the UNR was led by Simon Petlyura, who led the first series of the Ukraine project to its logical conclusion - the complete cessation of existence. About the project "Ukraine" was remembered only two decades later - during the Great Patriotic War, when the Nazi command again raised to the shield the idea of ​​creating Ukraine as part of the Ukrainian, Don and Kuban lands proper.

Today, Lenin's national policy raises many complaints. Perhaps, in the conditions of the Civil War, the promise of preserving national autonomies made certain sense, especially where real national differences really did feel (Caucasus, Central Asia), but the preservation of Ukraine in the form of a union republic, moreover, constantly fueled by new territories (under Lenin - Donbass , under Stalin - Transcarpathia, Bucovina and part of Bessarabia, under Khrushchev - Crimea), was a big political mistake.
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  1. bald
    bald April 26 2018 05: 38
    +9
    Unfortunately the story repeats itself, almost one in one. Unfortunately, the bulk of the people, both Russia and Ukraine, this is what was written above, have never been heard. In the study of history in schools, this was not and is not (so sliced, without essence). To begin with, nationalism in Ukraine must be finished and tough.
    1. Andrey Yuryevich
      Andrey Yuryevich April 26 2018 06: 58
      +29
      A country that was not. Features of Ukrainian political geography
      1. bald
        bald April 26 2018 07: 19
        +3
        Nice poster on the background of the coat of arms. Such things must be included in the general educational process. But in the "independent", few know this.
        1. Nicholas C.
          Nicholas C. April 26 2018 11: 06
          +7
          Quote: Author: Ilya Polonsky
          The Austro-Hungarian leadership hoped that by creating the Ukrainian nation, it would be able to split the Russian population Little Russia and thereby sow discord on the western borders of the Russian Empire ...
          At the end of the XNUMXth century, Austria-Hungary decided to create from the local Russian population living in Galicia and Transcarpathia
          ye new people - rutins or ruthenians. It wasn’t so simple, because the Russian population gravitated towards Russia, professed Orthodoxy and did not trust the Austrian government very much. Therefore, the Austro-Hungarians began by simply bribing part of the Russian intelligentsia. Appeared among the bribes and Grushevsky.
          In 1890, Mikhail Grushevsky graduated from the Faculty of History and Philology of the University of Kiev, receiving a gold medal for his work “An Essay on the History of Kiev Land from the Death of Yaroslav to the End of the XIV Century.” In 1894, he defended his master's thesis “Barskoe Starostvo. Historical essays ”, and in the same year, 28 years old, received an invitation to Lviv University - the Austro-Hungarian government kindly provided Mikhail Grushevsky with a university department and a substantial salary.

          It is necessary to cover the topic and as much as possible so that the whole story is well known. The author incorrectly accentuates, apparently, he himself did not have enough insight into that period. I will write only about the beginning of the article.
          The Russian people (another self-name - Ruthenians, not to be confused with the Austrian name - rutens, also an ancient ethnonym) in Austria-Hungary belonged to the Uniate church, into which, even during the Commonwealth, was forcibly driven into these territories. In the second half of the 19th century, Ruthenians in Austria began to return to Orthodoxy en masse (villages, parishes). That is what the Austrians perceived as a threat, a problem within their state.
          No need to repeat the ceremonial biography of Grushevsky, written by the Jesuits. Like any figure that underlies Ukrainian mythology (Mazepa, Petliura, Bandera, Shukhevych, etc.) - this is a pathological traitor who betrayed his father, mother. He graduated from Kiev University, but he could not find work in his specialty at any department in Russia - he had such a professional level. Therefore, I went to Lviv. In relation to Kiev, it was a hole, then, now. He headed the Masonic Lodge "Young Ukraine" there. Now there are color revolutions around the world, and then there were lodges with the name "young", for example, "Young Bosnia" with Gavrilo Principle, Nedelko Gabrinovich (provocation of the world war, the assassination of Ferdinand) This bed began to invent an ideology for the creation of a different people - Ukrainians (Active Rusyns, including Ivan Franko, were declared by the Austrian authorities and Masons to be Moskvophiles, they were persecuted, including by prisons, and later reached the genocide, including in Thalerhof, Terezin, etc.). But at first Ukrainians primarily recorded ... Poles. Then, after an unsuccessful uprising in the Russian Empire, there were especially many of them. As people with Jesuit education and thinking, they decided that creating a fictional Ukrainian nation was good for them.
          Then, as the west moved east, this tool became universal.
          The Bolsheviks made a huge contribution to the forcible Ukrainization of the Russian people.
          1. rkkasa xnumx
            rkkasa xnumx April 26 2018 13: 59
            +2
            Quote: Nikolai S.
            The Bolsheviks made a huge contribution to the forcible Ukrainization of the Russian people

            Yeah, they laid the atomic bonbu.
          2. avia12005
            avia12005 April 27 2018 20: 22
            0
            You even can not imagine, but it is useless to explain.
      2. rkkasa xnumx
        rkkasa xnumx April 26 2018 13: 57
        +3
        What does it mean for free? Ukraine was part of the USSR; Ukrainians, like the rest, worked and fought on our side. And if the leadership of the Soviet Union decided to transfer some territories to the Ukrainian SSR, then there were reasons for this. And in any case, some Crimea, even as part of the RSFSR, even as part of the Ukrainian SSR, was still ours.
        And what with the collapse of the USSR we lost these territories, so having lost their heads, they do not cry through their hair.
        Threat. And Odessa, Kharkov, Lugansk, and Donetsk-Yuzovka - they certainly were not part of Ukraine by 1922?
        And this ... of course, the territories of other Soviet republics were transferred to the Ukrainian SSR, but they were also taken away from the Ukrainian SSR.
        1. co-creator
          co-creator April 27 2018 01: 22
          +4
          Quote: rkkasa 81
          And what with the collapse of the USSR we lost these territories, so having lost their heads, they do not cry through their hair.

          Well, there would be no Ukrainian SSR and the territory would not have lost, is it logical?
          Quote: rkkasa 81
          S. And Odessa, Kharkov, Lugansk, and Donetsk-Yuzovka - they certainly were not part of Ukraine by 1922?

          EXACTLY
          Quote: rkkasa 81
          And this ... of course, the territories of other Soviet republics were transferred to the Ukrainian SSR, but they were also taken away from the Ukrainian SSR.

          That is, at first the non-Ukrainian territories were transferred to Ukraine, and then a small part was returned and you call it "taken from the Ukrainian SSR"
          1. rkkasa xnumx
            rkkasa xnumx April 28 2018 06: 43
            0
            Quotation: blooded man
            S. And Odessa, Kharkov, Lugansk, and Donetsk-Yuzovka - they certainly were not part of Ukraine by 1922?
            EXACTLY

            Proof?
            And then everywhere they write that they entered.
            Quotation: blooded man
            That is, at first they transferred non-Ukrainian territories to Ukraine

            Again by. For instance :
            Chernihiv province - the province of the Russian Empire, located on the left bank of the Dnieper.
            In 1919, four northern counties with a predominantly non-Ukrainian population moved to the Gomel province of the RSFSR, and in 1926 they were transferred to the Bryansk province, now they are part of the Bryansk region of Russia.

            And once again - even in the composition of the Ukrainian SSR, even in the composition of any other union republic, the transferred territories were still ours.
            1. Gopnik
              Gopnik April 28 2018 14: 45
              +1
              And why, in principle, should the Chernihiv province be included in the Ukrainian SSR?
              Why even create the Ukrainian SSR, and even not as part of the RSFSR, but as an equivalent state education?

              Quote: rkkasa 81
              And once again - even in the composition of the Ukrainian SSR, even in the composition of any other union republic, the transferred territories were still ours.


              Whose are yours?
            2. co-creator
              co-creator April 30 2018 21: 57
              0
              Quote: rkkasa 81
              Proof?
              And then everywhere they write that they entered.

              Specifically, about the conversation in 1922, or in fact?
              Quote: rkkasa 81
              In 1919, four northern counties with a predominantly non-Ukrainian population moved to the Gomel province of the RSFSR, and in 1926 they were transferred to the Bryansk province, now they are part of the Bryansk region of Russia.

              Mmm ... Do you want to say that these 4 counties are equal in area to New Russia and Sloboda Ukraine?
              Quote: rkkasa 81
              And once again - even in the composition of the Ukrainian SSR, even in the composition of any other union republic, the transferred territories were still ours.

              If they were ours, then why could the union republics leave the USSR without the permission of the other republics and the RSFSR in particular?
        2. Sergej1972
          Sergej1972 11 May 2018 00: 13
          +1
          Apart from the half of the Moldavian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, which entered the Moldavian USSR (present-day Transnistria), nothing was transmitted. The territories that were part of the Ukrainian SSR for several years and returned to the RSFSR (Taganrog and Mines) and Poland (Przemysl), I do not take into account.
      3. Alex koch
        Alex koch April 27 2018 10: 27
        +3
        Maybe enough already post this pseudo-memo? Remind me, what city was the capital of the Ukrainian SSR in 1922?)))
      4. Sergej1972
        Sergej1972 11 May 2018 00: 04
        +2
        Negative attitude to Ukrainian nationalism. And Soviet policy towards Ukraine was not perfect. But actually the information on this poster is incorrect. At the time of entering the USSR, Kherson, Yuzovka, Lugansk, Odessa were part of the Ukrainian SSR, and Kharkov was its capital.
  2. Olgovich
    Olgovich April 26 2018 06: 28
    +5
    It was not in vain that the chief of staff of the commander of the Eastern Front, Major General Max Hoffman, declared in 1919 that it was he who had created Ukraine in order to be able to conclude peace with at least part of Russia.

    belay The Bolsheviks RECOGNIZED Ukraine back in 1917, long before Hoffmann, so they dragged Ukraine to Hoffmann in Brest, while she herself did NOT want to go, focusing on the Entente. Such things could be known.
    but the preservation of Ukraine in the form of a union republic, and still constantly fueled by new territories (under Lenin - Donbass, under Stalin - Transcarpathia, Bukovina and part of Bessarabia, under Khrushchev - Crimea), was a big political mistake.

    Not a mistake, but a crime against Russia and the Russian people.
    1. BAI
      BAI April 26 2018 16: 26
      +5
      The Bolsheviks RECOGNIZED Ukraine back in 1917, long before Hoffmann, so they dragged Ukraine to Hoffmann in Brest, while she herself did NOT want to go, focusing on the Entente. Such things could be known.

      The Bolsheviks recognized not Ukraine as represented by the Rada, but Soviet Ukraine as represented by the All-Ukrainian Congress of Soviets.
      December 17 1917 at the initiative of the Bolsheviks, the All-Ukrainian Congress of Soviets was convened in Kiev. However, the attempt of the Bolsheviks to gain power in Ukraine in a legitimate way completely failed. Of the 2 thousand delegates to the congress, only 124 supported them. Under these conditions, the leader of the Ukrainian Bolsheviks V. Zatonsky declared the congress invalid and left for Kharkov with his supporters. Here, December 24 - 25, the Bolsheviks gathered a new "Congress of Soviets" in the amount of 200 delegates, which proclaimed the creation of the Ukrainian Republic of Soviets of workers, soldiers and peasants' deputies. Soviet Ukraine was declared the federal part of Soviet Russia, and all Lenin’s decrees and orders also extended to Ukraine. The chairman of the Soviet "Ukrainian government" was N. Skrypnik, however actual power belonged to Moscow. In addition to Kharkov, Soviet power in Ukraine was established only in the Donbass and the Krivoy Rog basin.

      The position of the Central Council extremely worried the Bolsheviks of Russia. Lenin raised the question of the need to conquer Ukraine at all costs, because "without Ukraine there is no Russia".

      December 17 1917 (the same day after the defeat at the congress! - BAI) SNK of Russia published the "Manifesto to the Ukrainian People", which was actually an open ultimatum to Ukraine. The document noted that The Central Council "ignores Soviet power in Ukraine" and therefore cannot be recognized by RNA. The parliament was invited to recognize Soviet power in Ukraine, that is, to dissolve itself. In case of failure to comply with the ultimatum requirements within two days, the RNA of Russia declared war on the Central Council. This document was signed by Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin.

      In this case,
      Lenin and Trotsky, Stalin and Kaganovich did not have illusions about what the Ukrainian idea was, who was its sponsor, who was its author, who its carriers and what was their level.

      because already
      Georgian Social Democrats also refused the friendship and cooperation of the Galicians, explaining that they could not accept "proposal of such an organization, which operates with the financial support and patronage of the Hohenzollerns and the Habsburgs and their brothers».


      In this case,
      after the establishment of Soviet power in Ukraine, the Bolsheviks were forced to act in the prevailing circumstances. Finish, so to speak, a chess game that they did not start. The liberal-bourgeois Provisional Government of Kerensky turned out to be so ridiculous and slurred that it only managed to ruin the remnants of statehood. And just The interim government brought the situation in Little Russia to the point that Ukraine arose there. In October 1917, the Bolsheviks gained power in Russia without difficulty, practically raised from the floor. But they needed all of Russia, complete, if without Poland and Finland, then at least with native Russian lands. And the Bolsheviks were not going to give away “Ukraine,” that is, the nine provinces of Southern Russia, to some political crooks.

      Well, what ended the war:
      On January 25, 1918, the Central Council proclaimed its 4th Universal, which stated that "from now on, the Ukrainian People’s Republic becomes an independent, independent, free, sovereign state of the Ukrainian people." This meant the declaration of complete independence of the UPR. Hoping now only for outside help, the Central Council instructed the Ukrainian government to urgently complete negotiations with Germany and Austria-Hungary and conclude a peace treaty with them.

      As we see, only Germans and Co. and no Entente.

      PS. Pay attention to the fact of citing material, so as not to return to this topic.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich April 27 2018 10: 11
        +2
        Quote: BAI
        The Bolsheviks recognized not Ukraine as represented by the Rada, but Soviet Ukraine as represented by the All-Ukrainian Congress of Soviets

        When will you perform “THREE U” Iliche? request
        Manifesto to the Ukrainian people with the ultimate requirements for the Central Council
        December 4 (17), 1917
        178 {}

        Proceeding from the interests of the unity and fraternal union of workers and workers, the exploited masses in the struggle for socialism, proceeding from the recognition of these principles by the numerous decisions of the organs of revolutionary democracy, the Soviets, and especially the All-Russian Congress of Soviets, the socialist government of Russia, the Council of People's Commissars, reaffirms the right to self-determination for all nations that were oppressed by tsarism and the Great Russian bourgeoisie, right up to the right of these nations to secede from Russia

        therefore we, the Council of People’s Commissars, recognize the People’s Ukrainian Republic, her right to completely separate from Russia or enter into an agreement with the Russian Republic on federal or similar relations between them ..

        Remember?
        Quote: BAI
        The parliament was invited to recognize Soviet power in Ukraine, that is, to dissolve itself.

        Lies stupid-read the manifesto
        Quote: BAI
        illusions about what the Ukrainian idea is, who is its sponsor, who is the author, who its carriers and what is their level, Lenin and Trotsky, Stalin and Kaganovich did not have

        Chatter
        Quote: BAI
        after the establishment of Soviet power in Ukraine, the Bolsheviks were forced to act in the prevailing circumstances. Finish, so to speak, a chess game that they did not start. The liberal-bourgeois Provisional Government of Kerensky turned out to be so ridiculous and slurred that it only managed to ruin the remnants of statehood. And just then, the Provisional Government brought the situation in Little Russia to the point that Ukraine arose there. In October 1917, the Bolsheviks gained power in Russia without difficulty, practically raised from the floor. But they needed all of Russia, complete, if without Poland and Finland, then at least with native Russian lands

        Lies and bullshit
        Quote: BAI
        And the Bolsheviks were not going to give away “Ukraine,” that is, nine provinces of Southern Russia, to some political crooks.

        Lies and Nonsense: From the Manifesto
        : Everything about national independence of the Ukrainian people, [/ b [b]] is recognized by us, the Council of People's Commissars, immediately, without restrictions and unconditionally.

        Against the Finnish bourgeois republic, which remains bourgeois so far, we have not taken a single step in the sense of restricting national rights and national independence of the Finnish people and we will not take any steps restricting the national independence of any nation from among those entering and wishing to be part of the Russian Republic.
        That's true from documentsand not your empty fiction
        Quote: BAI
        On January 25, 1918, the Central Council proclaimed its 4th Universal, which said

        About how do we write a story ON convenient parts? And BEFORE this- what was it? And before that, the Bolsheviks DRAW Ukraine to negotiations in Brest, where none of the Germans knew or recognized Ukraine at all! November 24 (December 7) Commissar Trotsky ordered Krylenko invite a representative UNR for negotiations. But the Government of the Central Council was in no hurry to respond to the proposal to send representatives to Brest.
        LishNovember 28 (December 11) after an additional reminder from the Headquarters, the government of the Central Council has appointed armistice talks no delegates, and observers . : Ukrainian observers arrived in Dvinsk, to the crossing point across the front line, only December 1 (14) on the eve of the completion of negotiations [3].

        The first contacts between Ukrainian observers and representatives of the Austro-German bloc nevertheless took place, although the governments of the Central Powers until that time did not take the UNR into account as a subject of negotiations. The General Secretariat was also not yet ready for an immediate peace with the Fourth Alliance. On the contrary, the Ukrainian social democrats and federalist socialists who dominated the government, still hoped to take a place among the states of the Entente.
        Trotsky, on December 8 (21), before the start of the peace negotiations, answered A. A. Ioffe’s request regarding his attitude to Ukraine:
        “As for the representatives of the Rada, it is necessary, if possible, to deal with them at their representation. If they refuse to enter the general delegation, in view of possible statements on their part, keep in mind that we formally recognized in our statements the existence of the Ukrainian Republic, »
        1. Alex koch
          Alex koch April 27 2018 13: 46
          +1
          But why didn’t you bring the manifest to the end?

          "We accuse the Rada of hiding behind national phrases, it pursues an ambiguous bourgeois policy, which has long been expressed in the non-recognition by the Rada of Soviets and Soviet power in Ukraine (by the way, the Rada refuses to convene, at the request of the Soviets of Ukraine, a regional congress of Ukrainian Soviets immediately This ambiguous policy, depriving us of the opportunity to recognize the Rada as the plenipotentiary representative of the working and exploited masses of the Ukrainian Republic, has brought the Rada very recently to steps that mean the destruction sjakoj possibility of an agreement. "
          .
          "If you do not receive a satisfactory answer to these questions within forty-eight hours, the Council of People's Commissars will consider the Parliament in a state of open war against Soviet power in Russia and Ukraine."
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich April 27 2018 14: 07
            +2
            Quote: Alex Koch
            But why didn’t you bring the manifest to the end?

            What for?! belay We talked about the recognition of Ukraine. AND
            And the UPR as a state recognized SNK.

            And glad / not happy and how glad is another question.

            Trotsky December 8 (21) before the start of peace negotiations at the request of A. A. Ioffe:
            “As for the representatives of the Rada, it is necessary, if possible, to deal with them at their representation. If they refuse to enter the general delegation, in view of possible statements on their part, keep in mind that in our statements we formally recognized the existence of the Ukrainian Republic, »

            Then VTsiK:
            Brothers Ukrainians! You are assured that we are opposed to the self-determination of Ukraine. It's a lie. Not even for a minute are we thinking of encroaching on the rights of Ukraine. Revolutionary the proletariat is only interested that all nations have the right to self-determination, all the way to the office.

            And the Bolsheviks were ready to give everything, if only they would support:
            Where is the class that would be able to ensure freedom for all peoples, including Ukrainians? During the 8 months of the revolution, you saw the policies of the Cadet bourgeoisie and the policies of the coalition ministries in which the Mensheviks and Socialist Revolutionaries met. This policy led to the defeat of the national freedoms of Ukraine. A few days before the fall of the "coalition" government, Kerensky called the members of the Rada to Petrograd to bring them to justice. The Cadet Central Committee, which is the soul of the Kaledin conspiracy, and now openly speaks out for strangulation of Ukraine.
            Let in the Soviets Ukrainians prevail.
  3. Korsar4
    Korsar4 April 26 2018 07: 30
    +2
    Curious man, unsinkable. And the selection of persons on banknotes of Ukraine with the participation of Mazepa and Grushevsky is also indicative. Maybe it's good that we stopped at the cities.
    1. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya April 26 2018 07: 45
      +2
      I would not be surprised if snouts of Yeltsin, Tsar-rags, Alexander the Second, and someone from the "intelligentsia" and "conscience of Russia" such as Sochinitsin and Sakharov would appear on the banknotes.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 April 26 2018 07: 50
        0
        I thought a little. And the portrait of Lomonosov seems indisputable. And even that is a lot of legends. You should not create idols.
        1. Kot_Kuzya
          Kot_Kuzya April 26 2018 07: 58
          +1
          Lomonosov is undoubtedly the greatest scientist of his time. No scientist probably did as much as Lomonosov did. One discovery of the atmosphere of Venus is worth it!
          1. APIS
            APIS April 27 2018 09: 06
            0
            Quote: Kot_Kuzya
            Lomonosov is undoubtedly the greatest scientist of his time. No scientist probably did as much as Lomonosov did. One discovery of the atmosphere of Venus is worth it!

            All heat engineering and artificial cold grew out of his work "On the nature of heat and cold."
            Four or five years ago, British scientists patented the laboratory stand of Lomonosov as a "refrigerator for underdeveloped countries." fellow
  4. baudolino
    baudolino April 26 2018 07: 39
    +4
    The very creation of the "Ukrainian people", which before the Bolsheviks simply did not exist, was not only a big mistake, but also a crime.
  5. Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya April 26 2018 07: 51
    +8
    but the preservation of Ukraine in the form of a union republic, and still constantly fueled by new territories (under Lenin - Donbass, under Stalin - Transcarpathia, Bukovina and part of Bessarabia, under Khrushchev - Crimea), was a big political mistake
    In the days of the USSR, Ukrainians were constantly indulged, called them "breadbasket" and "breadwinner", there were a lot of Ukrainians in power, even 2/3 of the general secretaries were Ukrainians: Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Andropov and Gorbachev. As a result, Ukrainians imagined themselves to be such first-class people, who fed the entire Union, and considered the Russians parasites and drunkards, who have blood on them. Well, time has shown who fed whom and who is "first grade". Already the Russians will not be able to ride, putting pots on themselves,
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. onega67
      onega67 April 26 2018 13: 07
      +2
      more idio .... which nation did not meet
    3. Bask
      Bask April 27 2018 07: 23
      0
      Well, yes, it’s just ordinary Ukrainians who stole everything. Ganba nam. And about what they fed, after the collapse of the Union, Russians went to Ukraine to buy food from the border territories. They also drove to Moscow, smiled when our farmers were surprised that the Russians poked on the little blue and asked what kind of fruit is this. Immediately after the collapse of the year, two lived well, but as the powers that be began to become impudent and steal more and more, they got to the pots.
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya April 27 2018 15: 26
        0
        Immediately after the collapse of the year, two lived well

        So they lived well, because by inertia Russia continued to feed you. By the way, in 1992-1993, Russian gas was absolutely free for you.
        1. Bask
          Bask April 27 2018 17: 51
          +1
          Well, yes, and we brought your products to you. We lived normally for two years, because we lived on the "subcutaneous fat" accumulated during the Union, and then the privatization and sale of national interests began. All Akhmetovs and powders began to pull everything and everyone. remember how Russia began to shake in 93-94, so you would feed yourself, where can Ukraine be fed. I live in Zaporozhye where there are a bunch of ZALK plants (Zaporizhzhya aluminum plant), ZTMK (Zaporizhzhya titanium-magnesium plant, by the way on that moment is the best in Europe), Zaporizhstal, Dneprospetsstal (produced legi ated steel grade), 77th plant works on oboronku.Pri proper handling only those plants would be brought to the state budget a lot of money, but it turned out to steal vygodney.Tak calm down, no you did not feed, and we do quite well.
          1. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya April 28 2018 01: 24
            +2
            And remember how Russia began to shake in 93-94

            It can be seen that you are completely unaware and are trying to teach. In fact, the wildest rampant inflation and hunger was in 1992, when on January 1, 1992, Gaidar and Co. released prices. For 1992 alone, prices rose a hundred times, salaries depreciated before our eyes, and even those did not pay half a year. How I survived, I don’t understand, probably only because then the people didn’t have loans and mortgages, otherwise everyone would have come full credit.
            Well, the fact that you lived better than the Russians in the 90s was because Russia, as the successor of the USSR, took over all the debts of the Soviet Union, and you, parasites, started everything from scratch. But Russia paid all external debts, and you, jumping, picked up new loans. Well, aren't you a horse? Although, even the Papuans are smarter than the skakuas.
            1. Bask
              Bask April 28 2018 07: 28
              0
              Such as you teach only to shake the air. Unlike you, I was seventeen in the 92nd and I remember very well that everyone jumped and the Russians and Ukrainians and the rest too. And they all poked each other and said that now they would all heal well, and thank God they won’t feed anyone. So you’re the same way as we are. And this is about paying debts to you personally (The total debt reached its maximum by the summer of 2014, exceeding $ 700 billion USD. In the summer of 2014, within sanctions in connection with events in Ukraine, Western financial institutions were prohibited from providing debt to the residents of the Russian Federation. The size of the debt began to decline rapidly. Peak payments on external debt occurred in the winter of 2014-2015, when over a few months it was paid more than $ 100 billion, which was one of the reasons for the major currency crisis in Russia and a sharp collapse of the ruble . In the year after the announcement of the moratorium on lending, Russia's debt decreased by almost $ 200 billion. Russia's gold and currency reserves also fell significantly). Oh yes, the gold and currency fund also left Russia. See less Solovyov’s and think. And then how are you different from ours, as you deigned to express the horses, then they also scream with foam that we fed the lazy and ever-drinking Russians.
              1. Kot_Kuzya
                Kot_Kuzya April 28 2018 08: 34
                +1

                Only the RSFSR and the BSSR have a surplus budget. All the rest of the republics, and the Ukrainian SSR, too, sat on subsidies paid by the Russians. In the USSR, Russians lived the worst, while Ukrainians skated like cheese in oil. At the end of the 80s, I traveled a lot around the Union, I visited Ukraine, in particular I visited Kharkov, so in 1989 the stalls were bursting with goods and products, even in Moscow there wasn’t such an assortment, I remember how Belgorod residents specially came to Kharkov to be packed. I remember the same way that the skakuas directly said that they were feeding the whole Union, that they were about to separate, so they would heal better than the Germans and the French. Wasn’t it like that?
                1. Bask
                  Bask April 28 2018 11: 54
                  0
                  Once again, with the collapse of the USSR, everyone jumped and screamed, so there is no need for horses. In my city, I already wrote what enterprises we had and what structure they worked for. I can add the Energadar NPP, Motor Sich (helicopter and aviation engines), in Dnepropetrovsk (100 km. from Zaporozhye) -Yuzhmash (production of everything from space rockets to trolleybuses). And who did all these plants work for? Are you the breadwinners for you? Or did each republic have its own budget ? Collective farms we kind of had, but damn, in our city there were apple, cherry orchards, melon. In summer, I watched the harvesters in the village myself, the combine harvesters didn’t appear for weeks at home. And you invested in the general budget at the expense of your resources (oil, gas). And if you haven’t fed anyone for more than twenty years, you’ve lived so badly. the whole Union, it would be logical to get rich right away, but why are you still poor to say the least.
                  And you talked about debt there, but you didn’t mention that in the beginning Russia took over part of the debt (61,34%, on December 4, 1991, an agreement was signed between the republics on the assignment of foreign economic debt and assets of the USSR). However, on April 2, 1993, the Government of Russia announced that it took upon itself all the obligations of the former Soviet republics to pay off the external debt of the USSR, in exchange for their refusal to share in foreign assets of the USSR (the so-called zero option). So Russia got all the external debt in the amount of $ 96,6 billion. Well, then Russia entered the Paris Club in 1997 and wrote off debts: developing countries, primarily Ethiopia, Mozambique, Yemen, Vietnam, Algeria, as well as other African countries and Asia. And who is your doctor that you caved in before the West, and he did not appreciate it.
                  1. Kot_Kuzya
                    Kot_Kuzya April 28 2018 12: 49
                    +1
                    I can add the Energadar NPP, Motor Sich (helicopter and aircraft engines), in Dnepropetrovsk (100 km from Zaporozhye) -Yuzhmash (production of everything from space rockets to trolleybuses). And who did all these plants work for? breadwinners?

                    But who needs your cracker gamno, also obsolete 30-40 years ago? It is better to buy high-quality modern equipment from the Germans, Japanese or Koreans. By the way, the Georgians also broke off, who during the time of the Union skated like cheese in oil because they had the only subtropics in the Union where tangerines, tea and tobacco grow, and the whole huge 280 million USSR bought all this from the Georgians. Even though Georgian tangerines, tea and tobacco were worse in quality and more expensive than foreign ones, in the Union they preferred not to spend currency and buy inside themselves than to export money abroad. Fools-Georgians galloped for separation and thought that the Russians would continue to buy from them derm ... mandarins, tea and tobacco at an exorbitant price. But it turned out that the Russians prefer to buy Moroccan, Spanish and Turkish tangerines, which are both cheaper and tastier, American tobacco, which is also cheaper and more fragrant, and Indian and Chinese tea, which are also more fragrant and cheaper than Georgian guan. That's exactly the same situation happened to you. We Russians don’t give up your products, which you really cannot do.
                    And if you have not been feeding anyone for more than twenty years, why you live so poorly. If you fed the whole Union, it would be logical to get rich right away, and you are still poor to say the least.

                    Well, compared to the 80s and 90s, we live much better, no comparison. All my friends change new foreign cars every 3-5 years, every year they go abroad to rest, every year they change iPhones for 70-80 thousand, nobody goes hungry, they don’t even have an idea about the deficit, there are everything you want on the tables, clothes and shoes are granted. The apartments have everything: each room has a huge TV set, each family member has his own laptop or tablet, which is also regularly changed. And certainly none of my friends have pensions of 50 euros and salaries of 100 euros as you have.
                    1. Bask
                      Bask April 28 2018 18: 06
                      +1
                      Yes, Solovyov TV in action. I told him about the plants and about the fact that the products of these plants went to the defense industry, and he told about oranges. And by the way, you still buy our guavanny metal. You only need to spoil them.
                      1. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya April 28 2018 21: 29
                        +1
                        And you watch Espresso TV, and download wassat ! Like you, you need to knock the pumpkin out, along with a saucepan.
                        What is your salary? 100 euro?
                      2. fitter71
                        fitter71 18 September 2018 19: 14
                        0
                        I do not want to dispute your arguments in any way (quite reasonable - IMHO), but when I visited the pre-Maidan Ukraine in 2010 ... no offense - as if I returned 15 years ago. at the same time, everything is not an oligarch, not a businessman - a simple car mechanic, on a fresh our car. and first of all, it was striking - the wildest ORDER (without any "not") on the roads on which cars from my 90s drive and in about the same quantities ... alas - every year by that time I got longer and longer stood in his provincial traffic jams, which you did not observe even in the beginnings. and yes - of this order - organizational - I have met here only occasionally. and sensible organization, first of all, in the absence of cops and sensible markings and signs on rather narrow and broken (especially in Krasnodar) roads.
                        But industry ... where is it yours today? Yes, in the same place as ours - in p ... e. only now they are trying to do something with us, and your rulers are ruining the last. Including to spite us - your same Motorsich, Yuzhmash and Antonov. so do not poke us with our problems, repeating and repeatedly exacerbating our experience on our land.
                    2. Prosha
                      Prosha April 30 2018 11: 28
                      +2
                      All my friends change new foreign cars every 3-5 years, every year they go abroad to rest, every year they change iPhones for 70-80 thousand, nobody goes hungry, they don’t even have an idea about the deficit, there are everything you want on the tables, clothes and shoes are granted. The apartments have everything: each room has a huge TV set, each family member has his own laptop or tablet, which is also regularly changed. And certainly none of my friends have pensions of 50 euros and salaries of 100 euros as you have.

                      You live well, and my friends, some work in two shifts and work, live from paycheck to paycheck, notice in Russia, they will not only stretch a foreign car on credit for eight years in joy. And you give fabulous examples here, so I'm more Basku I believe in this topic.
                  2. Uncle Vanya Susanin
                    Uncle Vanya Susanin April 29 2018 12: 09
                    +1
                    Bask go to the World Bank website and look at the data - 1990 GDP at the PPP of the Ukrainian SSR $ 350 billion, 2013 (anticipated) $ 391 billion, i.e. growth for 23 g was only ~ 12%, of all the CIS countries this is the worst result, for comparison, the PPPs of Russia and Belarus for this period increased by more than 3 times, well, who fed whom ???
              2. Prosha
                Prosha April 30 2018 11: 24
                +1
                The question of who fed whom was treated equally from all sides. When I left Ukraine in the early 90s I was escorted by this question, and a week later, when I got a job at an UAZ, I was met with the same question. So this topic was pedaled on both sides with the same zeal. This is what I say, the one who really worked never lived in abundance, he just didn’t have time to use this abundance, he had to work, however, as now, it seems to me all over the world.
            2. Sergej1972
              Sergej1972 11 May 2018 00: 23
              0
              Most of the 90s. Ukrainians lived worse than Russians.
  6. RUSS
    RUSS April 26 2018 09: 01
    +4
    A huge mistake in Ukraine is the annexation of Western Ukraine, Stalin deliberately brought enemies and traitors into the Union, this is an alien people, Westerners are for the most part Uniates, for most of their history they lived under the Poles, there are linguistic differences not talking about mentality, as a result, the whole infection, what is now common in Ukraine was spreading precisely from Galicia.
    1. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya April 26 2018 09: 11
      +4
      It was necessary to create a separate Galician SSR, and drive them into the head that they are not Ukrainians, but Galicians.
      1. co-creator
        co-creator April 27 2018 01: 28
        +3
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        It was necessary to create a separate Galician SSR, and drive them into the head that they are not Ukrainians, but Galicians.

        It was necessary to return their Poles and everything, and instead take completely East Prussia.
    2. Sergej1972
      Sergej1972 11 May 2018 00: 26
      0
      Western Ukraine is not united on the mental plane. Volhynia and Transcarpathia with Bukovina are different from Galicia.
  7. Curious
    Curious April 26 2018 09: 22
    +5
    "One of the cornerstones of the ideology prevailing in Ukraine is the myth of the antiquity of Ukrainian civilization."
    Declaring an attempt to restore historical justice, the author begins the article with an open lie. To do this, just look into the Ukrainian Wikipedia. With the same success, on the basis of articles on this site of the notorious Samsonov about the ancient "superethnos", one can draw the appropriate conclusions about the cornerstones of Russian ideology.
    If we consider the current myth-making, then it is characteristic not only for Ukraine. Any state rigidly creates its past, present and future, raising some events and people to the level of symbols, while others try to erase from memory. This selectivity of history allows it to serve as the foundation for various options for the present. Today, we are witnessing these processes in all its glory and at all costs, both in Ukraine and in Russia and throughout the post-Soviet space. This is called propaganda. And today's article is clearly a propaganda product, just very inept.
    1. vovanpain
      vovanpain April 26 2018 12: 03
      +9
      Quote: Curious
      To do this, just look into the Ukrainian Wikipedia.

      You can’t read further, unfortunately the Russian vetch is not much different from the Ukrainian version, but the article is certainly for YOU Victor is a lie and provocation, well, who loves such facts, well, how many such statues you have, you don’t know whether to cry, either laugh, or twist a finger at the temple. So no offense Victor. hi
      1. Curious
        Curious April 26 2018 12: 21
        +3
        Why should I be offended? What Polonsky does not share my views on history? You know, the stories of Pisanin Polonsky are completely indifferent and they will be forgotten immediately after reading them. Indeed, the knowledge of letters and the ability to put them into words is not a value in itself.
        And this article is not a lie and provocation for ME, but for any normal person who is at least a little familiar with history. Or do you think that in Ukraine more people believe in the tales of various marginals about the ancient Sumerians and the digging of the Black Sea than in Russia in the tales of the superethnos of the "megaprotrusoscifs" who built the pyramids from Mexico to Egypt or to Hyperborea? Actually, I wrote a comment for such people, without implying discussions with hamsters. This is both tiring and counterproductive.
        1. Victorio
          Victorio April 26 2018 18: 40
          +3
          Quote: Curious
          Or do you think that in Ukraine in the tales of various marginalized more people believe about ancient Sumerians and digging the Black Sea than in Russia in the tales of the superethnos of the "megaprotrusoscifs" who built the pyramids from Mexico to Egypt or to Hyperborea?

          ====
          the comparison is incorrect, because the level and concentration of stupidity are different. this is the case in many post-Soviet republics, but all of them are far, far from Ukraine
          1. Curious
            Curious April 26 2018 19: 03
            +1
            Have you done a comparative study? And how did you compare the stupidity level of the “proto-Sumerian theory” with the “theory of Hyperborean superethnos” and the concentration of this stupidity?
            1. Victorio
              Victorio April 26 2018 19: 41
              +2
              Quote: Curious
              Have you done a comparative study? And how did you compare the stupidity level of the “proto-Sumerian theory” with the “theory of Hyperborean superethnos” and the concentration of this stupidity?

              ===
              I lived in Kazakhstan, I live in the Baltic states. I read on this subject. I can’t provide any research, if you want to delve into the topic, it’s enough to make an effort. I think there will be no problems with examples.
              1. Curious
                Curious April 26 2018 20: 10
                0
                And what do you "read" on this subject? Drop the link to the writings of the apologists.
                1. Victorio
                  Victorio April 26 2018 20: 32
                  +1
                  now rush to search, and apologists too
                2. Victorio
                  Victorio April 26 2018 20: 40
                  +2
                  this is from bookmarks
                  http://baltnews.lv/authors/20150926/1014535186.ht
                  ml
                  http://old.unesco.kz/heritagenet/kz/content/histo
                  ry / history_ru.htm
                  come across yet, I will supply
                  1. Curious
                    Curious April 26 2018 22: 48
                    0
                    You shy away from the answer on the merits of the question.
                    1. Victorio
                      Victorio April 27 2018 10: 21
                      0
                      Quote: Curious
                      You shy away from the answer on the merits of the question.

                      ===
                      And what do you "read" on this subject? Drop the link to the works of apologists
                      I dropped the recent one, which I read whether the apologists or not are up to you to decide, take the trouble and you are looking for answers to your own questions, if you need answers.
                      1. Curious
                        Curious April 27 2018 11: 21
                        0
                        Yes, I received an answer to my question. You answered it.
                    2. Victorio
                      Victorio April 27 2018 17: 07
                      0
                      Curious
                      you are even too lazy to read my links, take at least the one about Latvia, compare the level of Nazism here and here in Latvia. there are a bunch of old legionnaires and once a year on March 16, you have thousandth marches with torches and nationalist slogans. here in Latvia the concentration camp in labor was renamed, your people are burned alive, as it was on May 2.
                      1. Bask
                        Bask April 27 2018 18: 06
                        0
                        In Germany, there are Nazis in the United States too (by the way, they also go with torches), and in Russia, skinheads staged mass beatings of the Nazis. And what? Does this mean that the Nazis rule in these countries? Our government doesn’t just flirt, but in the open supports the NATIONALISTS. Do you see the difference? And then only 1-2% of these sorrows of patriots, real nationalists, the rest are simply clinging. It’s fashionable now to do nothing among young people (why work? I went to the grandmother to drive the monument, I got the money and a patriot ). I’ll say more, the nationalists themselves are shocked by what these patriots are doing. For example, blogger Sharia has a video with a nationalist in which he talks about the attitude of their party towards such patriots. So study not only the links that resulted.
                      2. Curious
                        Curious April 27 2018 21: 33
                        0
                        Victorio! I kind of answered in Russian that the question is clear to me. You can neither add nor decrease anymore. All the best.
      2. co-creator
        co-creator April 27 2018 01: 31
        +2
        Quote: vovanpain
        You can’t read further, unfortunately the Russian vetch is not much different from the Ukrainian version,

        You either never read the Ukrainian wiki or you just don’t understand what you are writing about. Russian Wikipedia with all its problems is all based on links to historical documents, and Ukrainian is fantasy and insanity.
  8. Dobriy_chelvek
    Dobriy_chelvek April 26 2018 09: 24
    +5
    I do not understand the message of this article and others like them, because the electorate of this site is understandable to everyone, as well as its political views. At VO they like to discuss Ukraine, well, here's the question for you - you are all so smart, summoners to punish everyone to return everything. Well, suppose you included the territory of Ukraine in the Russian Federation, and so what? The people will hate you, as Crimea, the Crimean himself is whining now, and I myself am getting hardened by the fact that everything has not changed very much and everything has changed since the age of 14, and the people have become poorer at times. Or maybe the summoners themselves with arms will go to return the lands of Ukraine and drive the Ukrainians to factories that are no longer in place and which no one will build. Separately, there is the question of the language that was generally killed in the Crimea - for what? For the fact that this language is more similar to Belarusian and not Russian? What is striking is the chauvinism of the Russians, who, having heard the Ukrainian speech, squint, while the most reserved ones ask. - What is this Russian dialect? I have never heard such a thing before, and this is sad. Crimea still speaks in Crimea and on the mainland, Crimeans and Russians. So maybe not everything is good with us, maybe we will look at us and not at Ukraine, everyone, profiled Ukraine, as they once gave up the Russians in Uzbekistan. Think and be more tolerant of your neighbor.
    1. onega67
      onega67 April 26 2018 13: 10
      +4
      I was in Dnepropetrovsk in 1982, a very beautiful girl met on the way, we decided to get to know something, they asked her something, and she answered us: “Shaw?”, we were simply dumbfounded, and quickly retreated. All her beauty after "Shaw?" disappeared somewhere.
      1. Curious
        Curious April 26 2018 14: 35
        +5
        But if she answered “And what?”, Her beauty would immediately have increased several times.
      2. rkkasa xnumx
        rkkasa xnumx April 26 2018 19: 36
        +2
        Quote: onega67
        I was in Dnepropetrovsk in 1982, a very beautiful girl met on the way, we decided to get to know something, they asked her something, and she answered us: “Shaw?”, we were simply dumbfounded, and quickly retreated. All her beauty after "Shaw?" disappeared somewhere.

        In southern Russia, too, to a fig, shocking, and hacking.
        PS Maybe the thing is that you do not like girls?
      3. beeper
        beeper April 26 2018 22: 20
        +4
        Well, you didn’t do so well, you can say, they’ve made a fuss, colleague Onega67! request And now, after so many years, “boast,” subconsciously taking out that old boy’s mistake of that?
        I do not know how it is now, but in 1982 in Dnepropetrovsk the girls were very beautiful, southern, with a good character yes ! The city was very international ... although some now rely more on the largest synagogue of "TseEvropy" and another, popular, nickname "Dnieper" ... but many have already moved away ... who is somewhere in the Promised Land, in the USA or Europe, to Russia and Belarus ...
        But “sho?” Is a local dialect such Dnepropetrovsk-if you (the whole shy school team “on the road”, did you get acquainted with a beautiful Dnepropetrovsk? smile ) it was so easy to "be dumbfounded and retiring," then what did you expect from an accidental (for courage boy company, suddenly divorced from parental care?) meeting a young girl winked ?
        PS I was smiled by frank "questions" Curious and rkkasa 81 ... right off my lips yes , chesslovo, if they were not there, then, probably, he could not resist, he rhetorically asked himself ... negative
    2. Varyag77
      Varyag77 April 26 2018 14: 37
      +3
      Quote: Dobriy_Chelovek
      I do not understand the message of this article and others like them, because the electorate of this site is understandable to everyone, as well as its political views. At VO they like to discuss Ukraine, well, here's the question for you - you are all so smart, summoners to punish everyone to return everything. Well, suppose you included the territory of Ukraine in the Russian Federation, and so what? The people will hate you, as Crimea, the Crimean himself is whining now, and I myself am getting hardened by the fact that everything has not changed very much and everything has changed since the age of 14, and the people have become poorer at times. Or maybe the summoners themselves with arms will go to return the lands of Ukraine and drive the Ukrainians to factories that are no longer in place and which no one will build. Separately, there is the question of the language that was generally killed in the Crimea - for what? For the fact that this language is more similar to Belarusian and not Russian? What is striking is the chauvinism of the Russians, who, having heard the Ukrainian speech, squint, while the most reserved ones ask. - What is this Russian dialect? I have never heard such a thing before, and this is sad. Crimea still speaks in Crimea and on the mainland, Crimeans and Russians. So maybe not everything is good with us, maybe we will look at us and not at Ukraine, everyone, profiled Ukraine, as they once gave up the Russians in Uzbekistan. Think and be more tolerant of your neighbor.

      The daughter of an officer? Is it not so simple with you?
      What nonsense is that? What is the language here? in our country, half of the southern regions are almost indulging in mov. And no one is squinting. Where did you get poorer there? Where was it poorer? They were beggars.
      have you really regretted that you are part of Russia? A daughter of an officer. Forgot about what awaited you there?
      Well, in general, we have a lesson for the future. These "officer daughters" are already unhappy with the quiet. In 10 years, the whole Crimea will be unhappy.
      as they say do not do good, you will not get evil.
      1. co-creator
        co-creator April 27 2018 01: 38
        +2
        Quote: Varyag77
        Well, in general, we have a lesson for the future. These "officer daughters" are already unhappy with the quiet. In 10 years, the whole Crimea will be unhappy.

        you are probably mind brothers with him.
        1. Varyag77
          Varyag77 April 27 2018 11: 18
          +1
          Quotation: blooded man
          Quote: Varyag77
          Well, in general, we have a lesson for the future. These "officer daughters" are already unhappy with the quiet. In 10 years, the whole Crimea will be unhappy.

          you are probably mind brothers with him.

          And you, dear man, aren’t accidentally Bladen11 Or how is it there? He disappeared somewhere. But here you have the same alternative brain. Straight one to one.
      2. Dobriy_chelvek
        Dobriy_chelvek April 27 2018 11: 08
        +1
        Well, if I became the daughter of an officer, then you are most likely a “Bezhenka from the Donbass of the local spill,” firstly, secondly, with such thoughts sit in your backwater, drink a beer product, sit without hot water, watch Russia 24 and rejoice at life, I’m walking exactly along it, working and helping people solve their problems, and from the fact that I live in Russia it’s not cold or hot for me. To sit in state bodies at a salary of 14 rubles, when a taxi driver earns 000 or more. This is true? From that I say that it is necessary to deal with one’s country and not Ukraine.
        1. Varyag77
          Varyag77 April 27 2018 15: 27
          0
          Quote: Dobriy_Chelovek
          Well, if I became the daughter of an officer, then you are most likely a “Bezhenka from the Donbass of the local spill,” firstly, secondly, with such thoughts sit in your backwater, drink a beer product, sit without hot water, watch Russia 24 and rejoice at life, I’m walking exactly along it, working and helping people solve their problems, and from the fact that I live in Russia it’s not cold or hot for me. To sit in state bodies at a salary of 14 rubles, when a taxi driver earns 000 or more. This is true? From that I say that it is necessary to deal with one’s country and not Ukraine.

          Oh oh. how much verbal diarrhea. Go straight, and go. what problems then? And you have your own country, what is it? You are not cold and not hot just because in the year 14 polite people went to “guests”. And it’s quite possible that you wouldn’t go right through life, but hang on the lantern crookedly. Well, or would be in the ranks of those who hang.
          Not cold, not hot for him. X_hol you are a natural and fittest. In a week, the USA will enter Crimea, and you will say about it that it’s neither cold nor hot for you. Just not touched.
          1. Dobriy_chelvek
            Dobriy_chelvek April 27 2018 19: 21
            +1
            I look here not verbal diarrhea, but direct burning of the fart began. Come on, brave, come, we are waiting for mercy in Crimea, if you don’t give you money at the station with your ambition, then we'll see what kind of hero you are. You say an opportunist, well, ok, and those whom Russia 24 shows, saying: they served in the Navy or the Armed Forces and now they serve in the Russian Federation and they feel so good, they’re not opportunists, so don’t fuck, but I’ll answer for my actions I hold, held and will keep, but not in front of such a World Cup @ m as you, but in front of people who are worthy of it. About verbal diarrhea, well, in relation to my verbal diarrhea, so you have a direct diarrhea fountain, well, not otherwise. And so, take care of yourself, all the best to you, hold on there.
        2. Kot_Kuzya
          Kot_Kuzya April 28 2018 01: 29
          +1
          when a taxi driver earns 40 or more

          This is where a taxi driver earns 40 thousand or more? I tried to tax on the weekend, but quit this activity, since there is no exhaust. After deducting the commission for the service, gasoline, plus taking into account the amortization of the increased wear and tear of the car and the increase in the cost of repairs, there remain pennies. Only those who have nowhere to go and need to eat something are going to taxi drivers.
      3. fitter71
        fitter71 18 September 2018 20: 01
        0
        Quote: Varyag77
        have you really regretted that you are part of Russia? A daughter of an officer. Forgot about what awaited you there?

        don’t worry - this is the officer’s daughter, I speak as a resident of the Kuban, who is in the Crimea and lives next to those who still speak Surzhik, a Kuban relative of the Mova. no one looks back at anyone, otherwise I would have unscrewed my neck as a child :))
    3. [comment-show]
      Victorio
      Victorio April 26 2018 18: 50
      +1
      [/B]
      Quote: Dobriy_Chelovek
      and I myself am getting sick from the fact that it’s not hiss and everything has changed since the age of 14, and [b] the people have become poorer at times
      .

      ====
      if this is the only problem, it was necessary to hold a referendum on joining Turkey.
      otherwise you cannot disagree, there is a place to be, but, after all, there are reasons for this.
      ps about grammar. Russian is killed every day, fakes, trends, outsourcing, default, diversification, distributor, crowdfunding and other, other
      [/ comment-show] [comment-deleted]
      The comment was deleted.
      [/ comment-deleted]
  • co-creator
    co-creator April 27 2018 01: 34
    +3
    Quote: Dobriy_Chelovek
    The people will hate you, as Crimea, the Crimean himself is whining now, and I myself am getting hardened by the fact that everything has not changed very much and everything has changed since the age of 14, and the people have become poorer at times.

    The next daughter of the officer already reached VO. This site guy writes very little about Ukraine; go better to CASSADA
    1. Antares
      Antares April 28 2018 10: 46
      0
      Quotation: blooded man
      This site guy writes very little about Ukraine; go better to CASSADA

      Kassad is a blog. Moreover, there is news depending on the agenda. VO can also, just more diverse. In "Days of Ukraine" there are a lot of Ukraine. In the "days of Syria" - a lot of Syria. Kassad has two main topics since 14 years old.
      Until the age of 14, the most popular topics were tanks and Kaptsov. laughing and then the "Ukrainian era" and the Syrian
  • fitter71
    fitter71 18 September 2018 19: 54
    0
    Something I read you and some kind of dissonance ... ma'am - the officer's daughter? Why am I interested - I'm from the Kuban, I'm in the Crimea. no, the life of the Crimean people still differs from the "mainland" (following your terminology), but looking at the speaking people with suspicion is too much :)) how was the "Crimean" grammar "killed"? what - Putin issued a universal ban? Can you tell me the number of the decree of the Ukrainian deity? :))) for the uninitiated: in the Kuban, in the villages they still speak surzhik, that is, the "dialect of Russian" (a term vis-a-vis), little different from the Ukrainian language. and although I am no longer a native speaker of this dialect - in childhood even some peers spoke to me with it, I would curl up my head - look at everyone :))) while there are no problems with communication either in Ukraine (pre-maid), much less in Crimea - I have never had it - so your post fig knows what, but definitely not about reality :))
  • vnord
    vnord April 26 2018 10: 23
    +2
    Quote: RUSS
    A huge mistake in Ukraine is the accession of Western Ukraine


    For a long time I did not understand why during the Maidan, a lot of Maidan people left Sumy and Kharkov regions, which are generally Russian-speaking. Later I learned that after the Second World War, the families of many Bandera were deported to live in these areas ..
    1. beeper
      beeper April 26 2018 22: 51
      +2
      They pretty much spread and settled all over Ukraine ... except for the prohibitions, they were afraid to return to their native lands, because it was easy to get an “answer” for their “exploits” - many local relatives of the brutally murdered villagers were eager to get even with these “heroes” "so recklessly, magnanimously pardoned by the Soviet regime ...
      And until now unknown to the investigating authorities, their murderer "tricks" could also be opened - still in those places they find old wells and pits with bones of rolled villagers ...
  • Altona
    Altona April 26 2018 14: 49
    +5
    Today, Lenin's national policy raises many complaints. Perhaps, in the conditions of the Civil War, the promise of preserving national autonomies made certain sense, especially where real national differences really did feel (Caucasus, Central Asia), but the preservation of Ukraine in the form of a union republic, moreover, constantly fueled by new territories (under Lenin - Donbass , under Stalin - Transcarpathia, Bucovina and part of Bessarabia, under Khrushchev - Crimea), was a big political mistake.
    -----------------------------------
    As always, a listing of known facts and a cherry on the cake kick the dead lion. I explain the logic of events. All these "national" republics were created specifically for stopping separatism and did not imply leaving Great Russia. If you recall, the Civil War was also a war against separatism. Anarchist Nestor Makhno fought instead of the Red Army in Ukraine, driving out quite an outright shusher from there. The young Country of the Soviets did not have forces at all. Even in the statutory documents it is written that the Ukrainian SSR is a supranational entity, and not a purely Ukrainian republic. They made a concession to the national minorities, as in other republics, and also did so in order to emphasize the identity of each nation, and not to bluntly Russify everyone. And in Central Asia, in general, the former beys were put on the Soviets, saying that along the way we will transfer them to the proletarian consciousness. It didn’t work, nobody could be reforged. Putin makes the same “mistake” as Lenin. Then we will kick Putin the same way, gave Kadyrov Chechnya. So it is necessary to look under what conditions what was done, and not to repeat other people's cliches.
    1. co-creator
      co-creator April 27 2018 01: 49
      +2
      Quote: Altona
      They made a concession to the national minorities, as in other republics, and also did so in order to emphasize the identity of each nation, and not to bluntly Russify everyone.

      How can Russify Russians? Most of the Little Russians never considered themselves Ukrainians and they did not need a separate republic. This can be easily traced by those Little Russians who lived on the Kuban, in the Voronezh, Don and Kursk regions. They quietly easily switched to Russian and never showed a desire to become Ukrainians.
      Well, there was no strength, they wanted to show their originality. But why then began to conduct forced Ukrainization, it was also like there were no forces?
      Quote: Altona
      Putin makes the same “mistake” as Lenin. Then we will kick Putin the same way, gave Kadyrov Chechnya. So it is necessary to look under what conditions what was done, and not to repeat other people's stamps

      Putin certainly makes the same mistake. Only he realizes this and takes it from the nat. republics their privileges on culture. For example, now Russian does not have to learn local languages ​​as it was until the mid-2000s, Tatarstan fell last. Chechnya and Dagestan are regions where there are no more Russians and never will be, the most important thing now in the rest of the Russian Federation is to deprive these peoples of privileges.
  • Altona
    Altona April 26 2018 14: 54
    +2
    Quote: baudolino
    The very creation of the "Ukrainian people", which before the Bolsheviks simply did not exist, was not only a big mistake, but also a crime.

    ------------------------------
    So it can be said about any people. Because the number of states on Earth is growing (about 1914 it was 73, now more than 200), including through an unnatural way, the same Yugoslavia, for example. And in your opinion, it turns out that the Bolsheviks are criminals, and the Americans are apparently not criminals. History is a complex process and does not tolerate such judgments. Of course, "criminals", so much money swelled into the outskirts. They created industry, infrastructure, and energy there. Wouldn’t feed Non-Black Earth or the Middle Strip.
    1. Weyland
      Weyland April 26 2018 16: 55
      +2
      Quote: Altona
      And in your opinion, it turns out that the Bolsheviks are criminals, and the Americans are apparently not criminals.

      The Americans am a foreign country was torn to shreds, and the Bolsheviks am - mine!
    2. Bask
      Bask April 27 2018 07: 34
      +2
      You say so, as if the Russians were plowing tirelessly, but the Ukrainians were standing nearby and I apologize for pearing with a finger. At that time it was a single country and the money was shared by general, and not specifically Russian.
  • BAI
    BAI April 26 2018 15: 57
    +3
    1.
    myth of the antiquity of Ukrainian civilization. Yes, that's right, Ukrainians are distinguished not just as a separate people, but as a whole civilization, which by its antiquity can easily compete with the builders of Egyptian pyramids or Babylonian ziggurats. The attribution of extra millennia to their peoples is a very common phenomenon in the post-Soviet space. It is typical for small or playing a secondary role in world politics and culture of peoples who want to amuse such national identity.

    And on "VO" what are some authors on the topic of Pan-Slavism doing?
    2.
    Professor Mikhail Grushevsky

    Here it should be noted:
    2.1. The record for being the head of state is 2 or 3 hours.
    2.2. His Freemasonry and the complete denial of the existence of Russia as a state entity. At his insistence, the created Masonic lodge was not called the "Great East of Russia", similar to lodges in other countries, but the "Great East of the peoples of Russia." By the way, this name still holds.
    3.
    the preservation of Ukraine in the form of a union republic, which was constantly fueled by new territories (under Lenin - Donbass, under Stalin - Transcarpathia, Bukovina and part of Bessarabia, under Khrushchev - Crimea), was a big political mistake.

    Who could have foreseen the current situation?
  • Weyland
    Weyland April 26 2018 16: 54
    +2
    the preservation of Ukraine in the form of a union republic, which was constantly fueled by new territories (under Lenin - Donbass, under Stalin - Transcarpathia, Bukovina and part of Bessarabia, under Khrushchev - Crimea), was a big political mistake.
    Not a mistake. and purposefully pledged by Lenin am landmines!
  • Altona
    Altona April 26 2018 16: 58
    +7
    Quote: Weyland
    a foreign country was torn to shreds, and the Bolsheviks am - their own!

    -----------------------------
    Building enterprises and infrastructure, eradicating illiteracy? And you are probably writing from the fence now? Stalin did exactly the same thing as Roosevelt did. Roosevelt also had famine, and the Labor Army, and his own Gulag. The United States even confiscated gold from citizens.
    1. Gopnik
      Gopnik April 26 2018 17: 52
      +3
      Russophobic politics, the Ukrainization of the Russian population and the creation of any "national republics", again, at the expense of the Russian population
    2. Weyland
      Weyland April 26 2018 21: 02
      +3
      Quote: Altona
      Building enterprises and infrastructure

      in national entities, which they all now got for free and to the detriment of the Russian people!
  • Kosya Queen
    Kosya Queen April 26 2018 20: 51
    +5
    For everything that is happening now in the post-Soviet space, including urkain, the Bolsheviks are responsible with their irresponsible policy of redrawing the borders of the republics. They created Frankenstein-urkaina, an artificial formation, with sewn alien territories that differ in ethnic composition and mentality from ukroshumery. WHAT FOR???? This is a bomb with a clockwork, and it was clear to many rational people in those days the "cutting and sewing" of territories. Moreover, they nurtured all this rot, which now steers this under-state, and sane punishments. Was captured or surrounded - the enemy of the people, and amnesty to Bandera, you look through time and a respected person in a leadership position. Half of the Nazi rot in the Sumerian government are former high party officials of the Communist Party, and their ancestors distinguished themselves by fighting in the ranks of the UPA and other Nazi gangs. Is it not obvious that in such situations the ceiling in the quarry for this offspring, the position of a cesspool worker or something similar. But no, they are moved and moved up. Is it like that at all? Oh, not those who should have been punished by the merciless sword of the Soviet judicial system.
  • Alex koch
    Alex koch April 27 2018 14: 29
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    What for?!

    Why so rude to juggle? It is written, Russian on white "This ambiguous policy, depriving us of the opportunity to recognize the Rada as the plenipotentiary representative of the working and exploited masses Ukrainian Republic", mind you, not the UNR, but the Ukrainian Republic. Yes, and in official appeals I have never met the UNR
  • Victorio
    Victorio April 27 2018 17: 04
    0
    Curious,
    you are too lazy to read my links, take at least the one about Latvia, compare the level of Nazism here and here in Latvia. there are a bunch of old legionnaires and once a year on March 16, you have thousandth marches with torches and nationalist slogans. here in Latvia the concentration camp in labor was renamed, your people are alive and burned, as it was on May 2. and here you still make yourself upset!
  • KVU-NSVD
    KVU-NSVD April 28 2018 11: 09
    +1
    I read the comments here .. Sulfur universal rose. The ideas of autonomy in that territory have hovered since the time of Tsar Gorokh, the Austrians and Germans raised this idea to an ideological and systematic height, and the Provisional Government made a strategic mistake - recognized the Rada, and did not disperse this gangway in the bud. The Bolsheviks, while pausing a warring country, preferred to keep the newly formed Ukraine in the form of a pseudo-but autonomous territory within the USSR, and then what everyone knows in principle. It remains to add that the sprouted and systematized shoots of false nationalism and self-sufficiency inevitably turn into an indestructible weed and it appears that the “roots” of this “weed” are always as old as the “field” ....
  • Antares
    Antares April 28 2018 11: 13
    -1
    It is strange that in Russia they like to say / write Ukraine so and there weren’t / Ukrainians in the same way. Samsonov, in general, is Mother Russia for Russia all over the planet (which means that there are no Ukrainians either, and never were)
    Then I didn’t understand one thing - for example, Korolev, Glushko, Sikorsky, etc., people born on Ukrainian soil are Russian, and Mazepa, for example, is Ukrainian, although by logic he is the same Russian as Kurbsky. No. Iron logic is our best, your worst. Although Mazepa is an unsuccessful example - he has much more merit than other "Ukrainian heroes" in the affairs of culture, education, Orthodoxy and the military (to the glory of Russia, by the way)
    But still.
    Here it is necessary sequentially. If there is no Ukraine and there are no Ukrainians, then there should be no talk that some Ukrainians have committed any sins! There was no "Ukrainian" Mazepa - there was a Russian hetman, became famous in one but unsuccessfully put on the Swede. The cat was Russian, Bandera is Russian. The UNR was made by Russians who wanted autonomy / independence. The nationalists who walk with Slavic runes are Russian nationalists. In ORDILO, Russians shoot Russians (both with passports of the Russian Federation and Ukraine), Russian oligarchs on both sides of the border share the resources of the Russians of Ukraine and the Russian Federation, inspiring them with the idea of ​​the difference and the need for the border with such tales. In the Kremlin they compose a tale that the Russian RSFSR themselves Could have done without the Russian SSR and BSSR. winked
    And then somehow it is not clear. To claim that the Ukrainians have nothing and did not have and do not have them, and that’s all Russian, deprive them of everything, but at the same time leave them all “demons” and all sins ... Of course, we risk creating an image that is demonic and hostile.
    Which is the purpose of these publications!
    1. Bask
      Bask April 28 2018 11: 59
      0
      Bravo! You can’t say better.
    2. Gopnik
      Gopnik April 28 2018 14: 39
      0
      Did Mazepa call himself a Ukrainian? And so, of course, Mazepa is not Ukrainian, and therefore a traitor.
    3. Uncle Vanya Susanin
      Uncle Vanya Susanin April 29 2018 13: 01
      0
      - "Ukraine" is an ailment that even the most powerful national organism can undermine, and there is no condemnation that would be enough for this voluntary self-destruction! "Galitsky publicist, public figure and historian Osip Monchalovsky (1904)," Ukrainians "still there was an unknown word, and now it has not yet reached all walks of life ”- V.K. Vinnichenko - the first chairman of the UNR Directory,“ None of the people who are called the Ukrainian nationalist are not backed up: you can be a nationalist of the people who nor ѣ to the nature of Godѣ? "© Ev Meniy Sabov, a Ruthenian writer, Greek Catholic priest, from the work Ruske Zhyti, Mukachevo, 1929. Yes, yes, both Mazepa and Bandera are Russians, but the heroes of Ukraine are traitors to Russia!
      1. Antares
        Antares April 30 2018 20: 04
        0
        Quote: Uncle Vanya Susanin
        And so yes, both Mazepa and Bandera are Russians, but at the same time the heroes of Ukraine, for Russia they are traitors!

        it all depends on the point of view of the state. cars at that time.
        Mazepa did a lot for Russia and Russia, but one act for Peter erased everything. Although besides him, all that he did was for the benefit of Russia and Ukraine. It should be understood not only the choice between Peter and Charles, but all his activities.
        Bandera from the point of view of the Soviet regime, collaborators and war criminals. Vlasovites too. However, both are erected monuments in both the Russian Federation and Ukraine. That under the Union was not permissible. So the point of view of the Union has ceased to be the main one.
        1. co-creator
          co-creator April 30 2018 21: 07
          +1
          Quote: Antares
          Mazepa did a lot for Russia and Russia, but one act for Peter erased everything.

          So she’s such a life, one act can cross out everything. If Hitler had not committed the Holocaust, had not gone to war in France and the USSR would have been the greatest politicians of the 20th century.
          Quote: Antares
          It should be understood not only the choice between Peter and Charles, but all his activities.

          This is not to be understood. Mazepa was a citizen of RI and was in the service of this empire. During the war, he decided to sell his country and his people, I recall the vast majority of the population and Cossacks supported Peter. (Cossacks did not obey Mazepa) What activity can outweigh this act?
          Quote: Antares
          Bandera from the point of view of the Soviet regime, collaborators and war criminals.

          Are they heroes for you? I honestly always did not understand how people are killing people in the nat. featured can be heroes or even just people.
          Quote: Antares
          Vlasovites too. However, both are erected monuments in both the Russian Federation and Ukraine.

          Where in the Russian Federation erect monuments to Vlasov? Ukrsmi seen enough)
          Quote: Antares
          So the point of view of the Union has ceased to be the main one.

          Strange logic. For any mentally healthy person Bandera, Vlasov is scum and traitors. Mazepa is just a traitor or, more precisely, a political one about..st..tut..ka.
        2. fitter71
          fitter71 18 September 2018 20: 39
          0
          Quote: Antares
          Bandera from the point of view of the Soviet regime, collaborators and war criminals. Vlasovites too. However, both are erected monuments in both the Russian Federation and Ukraine.

          I wonder - where is the monument to Vlasov? the exact address in the studio - otherwise my sledgehammer got dusty with someone ... :)))
    4. pacific
      pacific 15 May 2018 21: 32
      0
      I agree with you, Antares, in many ways. But there is one "catch" that you did not take into account or deliberately circumvented.
      In the Russian Federation, all of the odious personalities you mentioned are purely negative characters and have an unambiguous reputation. In Ukraine, these same people are elevated to the rank of national heroes. And mainly for their anti-Russian actions and statements.
      Neither Glushko, nor Amosov, Sikorsky, Paton, Bezborodko, both Razumovsky’s brothers, or even all of them together won such a glorification of the official Ukrainian authorities as Mazepa, Bandera go Shukhevych.
      PS If I am not mistaken, then S. Bandera was not a single day a citizen of the USSR (USSR), as well as Shukhevych.
    5. fitter71
      fitter71 18 September 2018 20: 36
      0
      Quote: Antares
      It is strange that in Russia they like to say / write Ukraine so and there weren’t / Ukrainians in the same way. Samsonov, in general, is Mother Russia for Russia all over the planet (which means that there are no Ukrainians either, and never were)
      Then I didn’t understand one thing - for example, Korolev, Glushko, Sikorsky, etc., people born on Ukrainian soil are Russian, and Mazepa, for example, is Ukrainian, although by logic he is the same Russian as Kurbsky. No. Iron logic is our best, your worst. Although Mazepa is an unsuccessful example - he has much more merit than other "Ukrainian heroes" in the affairs of culture, education, Orthodoxy and the military (to the glory of Russia, by the way)
      But still.
      Here it is necessary sequentially. If there is no Ukraine and there are no Ukrainians, then there should be no talk that some Ukrainians have committed any sins! There was no "Ukrainian" Mazepa - there was a Russian hetman, became famous in one but unsuccessfully put on the Swede. The cat was Russian, Bandera is Russian. The UNR was made by Russians who wanted autonomy / independence. The nationalists who walk with Slavic runes are Russian nationalists. In ORDILO, Russians shoot Russians (both with passports of the Russian Federation and Ukraine), Russian oligarchs on both sides of the border share the resources of the Russians of Ukraine and the Russian Federation, inspiring them with the idea of ​​the difference and the need for the border with such tales. In the Kremlin they compose a tale that the Russian RSFSR themselves Could have done without the Russian SSR and BSSR.
      And then somehow it is not clear. To claim that the Ukrainians have nothing and did not have and do not have them, and that’s all Russian, deprive them of everything, but at the same time leave them all “demons” and all sins ... Of course, we risk creating an image that is demonic and hostile.
      Which is the purpose of these publications!

      cool :)))
      remind - when did Ukraine appear as a state, and not a locality (read - outskirts)? so before it appeared as a state - could it exist as a state? Well, if she could, tady - oh :)) Well, with regards to the seriousness in terminology - well, there was no UKRAINE under the Mazepa, there was MALORUSSIA (I remind you - the king was called the ruler of big, small and white Russia, well, etc.). now about demons - periodically going to the sites of jumpers - that's what I read: everything good is Ukrainian, and Odessa was liberated from the Germans by the Ukrainians, and the Bandera fought with them - they killed as many as 30 Germans (according to the calculations of the Germans themselves) throughout the war, and the division SS "Galicia" - not fought for the Germans, but for freedom ... apparently the Germans. and the hero of the dill, Shukhevych, did not serve the Germans but the cause of Ukrainian freedom ... with the rank of the highest SS officer. You can enumerate for a long time the "incidents" of the country of jumpers, but anticipating one of the favorite "arguments" of the Maydauns, I note: Vlasov in our history was, is and will be not a hero - a traitor, unlike your "heroes". and there is no need to tryndet about the "non-heroicity" of Bandera - you call the streets after him, but we don't after Vlasov. and the sentence to him is not canceled. and you download, download, your heroes to help you ...
  • Monarchist
    Monarchist April 28 2018 16: 30
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    Quote: Alex Koch
    But why didn’t you bring the manifest to the end?

    What for?! belay We talked about the recognition of Ukraine. AND
    And the UPR as a state recognized SNK.

    And glad / not happy and how glad is another question.

    Trotsky December 8 (21) before the start of peace negotiations at the request of A. A. Ioffe:
    “As for the representatives of the Rada, it is necessary, if possible, to deal with them at their representation. If they refuse to enter the general delegation, in view of possible statements on their part, keep in mind that in our statements we formally recognized the existence of the Ukrainian Republic, »

    Then VTsiK:
    Brothers Ukrainians! You are assured that we are opposed to the self-determination of Ukraine. It's a lie. Not even for a minute are we thinking of encroaching on the rights of Ukraine. Revolutionary the proletariat is only interested that all nations have the right to self-determination, all the way to the office.

    And the Bolsheviks were ready to give everything, if only they would support:
    Where is the class that would be able to ensure freedom for all peoples, including Ukrainians? During the 8 months of the revolution, you saw the policies of the Cadet bourgeoisie and the policies of the coalition ministries in which the Mensheviks and Socialist Revolutionaries met. This policy led to the defeat of the national freedoms of Ukraine. A few days before the fall of the "coalition" government, Kerensky called the members of the Rada to Petrograd to bring them to justice. The Cadet Central Committee, which is the soul of the Kaledin conspiracy, and now openly speaks out for strangulation of Ukraine.
    Let in the Soviets Ukrainians prevail.

    Close to the truth
  • Monarchist
    Monarchist April 28 2018 16: 35
    0
    Quote: onega67
    I was in Dnepropetrovsk in 1982, a very beautiful girl met on the way, we decided to get to know something, they asked her something, and she answered us: “Shaw?”, we were simply dumbfounded, and quickly retreated. All her beauty after "Shaw?" disappeared somewhere.

    But is it reprehensible that the girl answered in Ukrainian
    1. Uncle Vanya Susanin
      Uncle Vanya Susanin April 29 2018 13: 03
      0
      But shaw immediately "in Ukrainian", maybe she answered in the Little Russian dialect of the Russian language
  • Bask
    Bask April 30 2018 08: 40
    0
    Kot_Kuzya,
    Is there enough health? Look, otherwise the bouncer will break.