Military Review

New Polish GROT

88
At the end of last year, completely unnoticed news that the Polish army adopted a new GROT machine gun. This news is interesting for several reasons. First, this weapon fully complies with the smallest and not always reasonable NATO standards. Secondly, this development is completely the fruit of the works of Polish designers, which already causes interest. Thirdly, this machine, in the full sense of the word, is modular, and it even works.


New Polish GROT


The GROT machine gun, despite the fact that everyone writes about it as a completely new weapon, is with some qualification. The fact is that this weapon was previously planned to be called Radon, in continuation of the tradition of giving the Polish arms the designation of the names of chemical elements and minerals. Explain this renaming only marketing - a short designation, euphonious, only those letters that are in the Latin alphabet are used. This weapon has identified itself in 2014 year, when it was presented as a prototype, not ready for mass production with the name MSBS-5,56. Work on this project was started back in 2007, the goal, as you can guess, was to create an automatic machine meeting NATO standards and avoiding weapons based on a Kalashnikov machine gun.

You can easily build a chain that shows how long it took the Polish designers to create a machine of their own design. From 2007 to 2014, the designers worked on the creation of a new weapon, while the first, still completely “raw” version of the machine gun was assembled in 2010. The time from 2014 to the end 2017 was spent to bring the weapon to acceptable levels and to prepare for the production, for mass production of these weapons.



To be objective, it is not so much more than ten years spent on the creation of a new machine, given that weapons are already in full swing and, after satisfying domestic needs, will be exported. Of course, such works require either a good base in the form of their own specialists, or invited from abroad. The Poles have managed on their own, at least so they say, and there is no reason not to believe them. To say that the new weapon is really completely Polish, allows the work of designers, which was done earlier. And although the work was mainly carried out as part of the modernization of the Kalashnikov assault rifle, it is difficult to deny the fact that certain experience was gained and it was quite successfully used in the design of the GROT machine. It is logical to try to briefly get acquainted with the whole chain of works of Polish designers, before they get acquainted with a new weapon.

Polish machines based on AK

As mentioned above, the previous designs of Polish automata were based on the Kalashnikov machine gun, and if the first AK and AKM were made virtually without significant changes in the design, then with the transition to a low-pulse cartridge, the situation changed somewhat and the Polish gunsmiths began to introduce their designs into the design of the Soviet weapon.

Automatic wz.88 Tantal and wz.89 Onyks

Work on their own weapons under the low-pulse cartridge 5,45х39 in Poland began in 1980, and the AK-74 machine gun became the basis for the new weapon. In Polish sources it is indicated that this development is completely Polish, for the authorship of the designer Bogdan Szpierski and other Polish gunsmiths. It is usually noted that gunsmiths tried to make the weapon as close in design as possible with interchangeable nodes with a Kalashnikov assault rifle.



If the work was really carried out "from scratch", then it is absolutely unclear for what purpose, if the result of the work was to be the same Kalashnikov assault rifle. But it is impossible not to notice that the changes are present and they are not only in a few millimeters of the differences between the individual details.

The main changes that were made by Polish gunsmiths in the design of AK, relate to the trigger mechanism. The weapon taught to shoot with a cut-off of three rounds. The possibility of firing with a cut-off is often criticized, since after the first firing any person knows how to fire on the cartridge's 2-3 and such a skill is akin to the ability to ride a bicycle - is not forgotten. A really useful realization of this possibility is carried out in systems like Nikonov's automata, which is also a controversial advantage in combination with the complexity of the entire structure. Nevertheless, the Polish designers added a new firing mode and, as a result, got several problems at once.



The main problem was to bring the weapon to acceptable levels of resource and reliability. So, the weapon was already ready in 1988, however, they were able to accept it only in 1991. The reason for this delay, in addition to financial, was not the highest reliability of the firing mechanism. Of course, all problems were eventually eliminated, but time was spent on this.

In addition to bringing the USM design to acceptable performance, the designers were faced with another problem, namely the implementation of the control modes of operation of weapons. It would be strange to overload the standard switch of the Kalashnikov assault rifle, so the Polish gunsmiths added another switch, which many often confuse with the switch duplicated from the left side of the AK switch. As a result, the switch on the right side of the weapon began to control only the fuse and had two positions, and the small switch above the pistol grip on the left side switched fire modes and, accordingly, had three positions.



The weight of the new weapon was 3,37 kilogram without cartridges. The length was equal to 943 millimeters with a butt out and 748 millimeters with a folded. The rate of fire was increased to 700 shots per minute.



On the basis of the wz.88 machine gun, a machine with a shorter stem, an analogue of our Ksyusha, was developed. This weapon was intended to arm the crews of armored vehicles, drivers, and so on. The designation of this machine received wz.89. The weapon turned out the mass of kilogram 2,9 without cartridges. The 720 and 519 are millimeters long with the butt folded and folded, while the barrel length was 207 millimeters.

There is one interesting fact about this weapon. At the end of 1989, work began on the adaptation of these machines for the cartridge 5,56х45 and these works were even completed. As a result, wz.90 Tantal and wz.91 Onyks automatic rifles were obtained, but no weapons were made for their own use. Apparently, the transition to a new ammunition considered unaffordable luxury at that time.

Automatic wz.96 Beryl

Obviously, the transition of the Polish army to a new ammunition 5,56х45 was inevitable and soon it really took place. In 1994, work began on improving the design of the Tantal and Onyks machines. Taking into account the fact that both machines had already been recalculated to the chuck of the NATO standard, no complicated work was done, the designers changed the butt of the weapon, and also added a mounting bar to the cover of the receiver. Subsequently, the rifle continued to acquire additional fastening straps, the butt changed, but this did not stop being, in fact, a Kalashnikov rifle with the possibility of firing with a cut-off of three rounds.



Already in 1996, the new weapon was adopted and began to force out automatic weapons chambered for 5,45х39. Until last year, this machine was the main one for the army of Poland, although the country purchased foreign samples, such as the G36 and HK416.



In total there is a 4 version of the wz.96 machine. The first with the designation Beryl c barrel length 457 millimeters. Beryl Commando with a barrel length of 357 millimeters. And a mini-beryl with a barrel length of 235 millimeters. In addition, there is also the Beryl IPSC sports carbine, which differs from Beryl only in the absence of automatic firing and in small details, in the form of fastening aiming devices and other things.

Automatic wz.2005 Jantar

In 2002, on his own initiative, Polish designer Mikhail Binek demonstrated the result of his work, namely, an automaton in the bullpup layout. As it is not difficult to guess, the weapon was based on the Beryl machine gun, which, probably, gave movement to the project, which grew into a full-fledged finished sample with the designation wz.2005.

Since the Beryl machine gun was based on the Tantal machine gun, which, in turn, was built on the AK-74 base, the Jantar is nothing but a Kalashnikov gun in the bullpup layout, which has a fire mode with a cut-off of three rounds.



Like most weapons models created in an attempt to change the AK layout, the wz.2005 has a number of drawbacks that are difficult to accept. In addition to the proximity of the window for ejection of spent cartridges to the face of the shooter and the cocking handle, which you have all the chances to catch with your front teeth when shooting from the left shoulder, the location of the fuse switch is clearly inconvenient. In addition, on the other side of the weapon is also a small switch of fire modes, while with both elements it is necessary to interact with different hands.

The combination of all these shortcomings was the reason that the weapon was not adopted. However, the advantages of the bullpup layout were appreciated, and subsequently the experience of creating such weapons was applied in the MSBS-5,56 project, which grew into a GROT machine gun.

The general concept of the GROT

It is no secret that Poland is trying with all its might to disown all Soviet, because the rejection of weapons, even if it was processed by itself, but on the basis of the Soviet Kalashnikov, was only a matter of time. In this regard, the question was raised about exactly how the new Polish machine gun will be. It goes without saying that the new weapon had to meet all NATO standards and at the same time have a basis for further cost-effective modernization, but the details that would be decisive in the further development of Polish weapons in the army were important.

Taking into account the operating experience of foreign automata, as well as their own developments, the choice was made in favor of the modular system, and modularity was not limited only to the ability to quickly change the barrel of the weapon; modularity had to be truly complete.



First of all, the design should provide for the possibility of not only assembling a machine gun with the desired barrel length, but creating a complex, on the basis of which one could assemble both a machine gun, a self-loading rifle, and a light machine gun with the maximum possible use of common components and parts. Such a solution would significantly reduce the cost of rearmament, and also would solve the problem of weapon repair and personnel training.

In addition, previously, the Jantar machine gun showed its clear advantage over the versions of the machines with a shortened barrel, since the full length of the barrel is preserved when the bullpup is assembled. This caused another requirement for a new automaton, which was to be developed in two different layouts, back with the maximum possible amount of common parts.



In other words, the gunsmiths were faced with the task of creating a constructor from which it was already possible to "sculpt" anything, and it should be noted that the Polish gunsmiths managed, though not without controversial moments.

The appearance and ergonomics of the machine GROT

If we compare this machine in its appearance with other modern developments, we can confidently say that the weapon is made at a decent level. Although beauty is a subjective concept, we have seen really strange constructions, against which GROT looks handsome in general.

Obviously, considerable attention was paid to ergonomics and ease of handling weapons. Designers abandoned the possibility of firing with a cut-off of three rounds, which made it possible to combine both the fuse switch and the translator of fire modes in one piece, which was placed above the pistol grip under the thumb of the holding hand and duplicated on the other side. The magazine eject button is located in front of the safety bracket, large enough and convenient for pressing with the index finger of the hand holding the weapon.



The shutter lag is turned off in an interesting way, which is also present in the GROT machine. Since at any layout the store needs to be changed manually, respectively, the hand will be next to the store receiver, the designers decided to move the shutter lag off button immediately behind the store shaft, which seems like a reasonable decision.

On both sides of the weapon, there are handles for cocking the shutter, which remain motionless when fired, did not ignore the possibility of choosing the side for ejection of spent cartridges, however, the decision is not the most beautiful, but the cheapest. The choice of the side is carried out by turning the shutter larvae, for which, of course, the weapon must be disassembled. An unused window for ejection of spent cartridges is closed with a lid.

The design and characteristics of the GROT

The basis for the new machine has become the automation with a short stroke of the piston and the locking of the barrel when the valve is turned on the 7 stops. Taki Polish designers managed to move away from the AK, but not far.

The upper part of the receiver of the machine is made of aluminum alloy, it is located in the barrel and bolt group. The receiver for both the classic layout and the bullpup layout is the same, the latter differs only in the additional mounting bar above the barrel. But the lower parts of the receiver for different layouts differ. They are located trigger. The lower part of the receiver, forend and stock are made of plastic.



Despite the fact that there are quite a lot of details in the GROT machine that should make it light, it is not a champion in low weight. In the classic layout of weapons weighs kilogram 3,65 without ammunition. In the bullpup layout, the weight of the automaton is equal to 3,55 kilograms. The length of the machine in the classic layout with the butt spread out is 900 millimeters, with a folded butt — 670 millimeters. The same 670 millimeters are the length of the weapon in the bullpup layout. In both cases, the barrel length is equal to 406 millimeters.

Сonclusion

Say what you like, but the Polish designers really managed to create a modern and quite comfortable weapon. Personally, I really liked the decision to abandon the version of the machine with a shortened barrel in favor of the bullpup layout. A well-thought-out arrangement of controls is also not the most frequent phenomenon, although it would seem that this is the place to start when creating a new weapon.



Since the machine has just entered service, reliability issues remain open, especially in operating conditions other than the Polish climate. Since the weapon “brought” 4 of the year before adopting it, it is likely that the shortcomings that could have been encountered in local conditions were eliminated. How the automaton will show itself at high operating temperatures, under prolonged exposure to direct sunlight, or at the lowest possible temperatures is unknown. Given the fact that Poland often participates in various operations within NATO, we can expect feedback in the near future, including a comparison of weapons with other foreign models.
Author:
Photos used:
weaponsland.ru
88 comments
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  1. Operator
    Operator April 25 2018 16: 25
    +14
    The Poles managed to do what turned out to be too tough for the Kalashnikov concern - a receiver without a lid am
    1. Dormidont
      Dormidont April 25 2018 16: 44
      +2
      In a stolen set of drawings, this page was torn out
    2. tracer
      tracer April 25 2018 20: 42
      +10
      That's for sure. It’s rare to “praise” anyone, but the Poles made an excellent trunk. Considering that they made trunks of the polygon section (massively) and put AK on their versions ... Well, this is very worthy. Highly. Here it’s necessary to make such trunks and deliver to the Russian army.
      1. AlexMark
        April 25 2018 21: 20
        +3
        And it is possible in more detail about the polygonal trunks on Polish machines, such a moment somehow bypassed me. I know about the Yugoslav Zastava M21, but I have not heard about the Polish recourse
      2. Amateur
        Amateur April 26 2018 04: 42
        0
        Better to you in Canada
      3. Timeout
        Timeout April 27 2018 03: 45
        +6
        Quote: tracer
        but the Poles made an excellent trunk.

        And how did you come to that conclusion? Probably had to shoot, brought to a neighboring storehouse ...
        Quote: tracer
        trunks of polygonal section

        Damn, I know that there is a polygon shape, but I already came up with a "tracer" section. "Dear", polygonal rifling, but not a polygonal section. And this pearl allegedly produced a shooter with more than 30 years of experience. How it all starts ...
        1. tracer
          tracer April 27 2018 20: 18
          +3
          Do not cling to words. The meaning of this does not change. This is the first. Secondly, I had to deal with Polish-made weapons. Including PM, which were much more accurately made than the Soviet originals. Thirdly, if you do not let you cling to words, you will dry out of boredom. I always express my opinion.
          1. Timeout
            Timeout April 28 2018 02: 05
            +3
            Quote: tracer
            Do not cling to words.

            Dear, if you are positioning yourself a pro, be it. For knowledge and experience are clogged at the subconscious level. And a knowledgeable person will never allow this. This is the first.
            Quote: tracer
            Secondly, I had to deal with Polish-made weapons. Including PM, which were much more accurately made than the Soviet originals.
            Secondly ... A knowledgeable person has never seen PM made in Poland! The Poles produced P64 and now produce P83 (Wanad), the only thing that unites them with the PM is the cartridge and minimal similarity. The Poles do not and did not have a license for the PM. So my friend, again a puncture!
            1. tracer
              tracer April 28 2018 02: 58
              0
              Yes, calm down you already. Well, if you are a Polish “Makarov,” we don’t recommend Makarov. “The flag is in your hands.”
              I do not try to belittle anyone and on this "exalt." You know something, maybe. But that does not make your opinion the ultimate truth. For many people, even direct facts are not proof. An example ... among acquaintances alone, the daddy on the "glass case" blurted out that the 15-year-old daughter was not his .. So on the "blue eye". In order to shame her husband, his wife (incidentally, the former Aerosvit stewardess) made a genetic examination. Which yes confirmed "Not him" ... and even two more did not convince the brave woman that her daughter was not him .... But they gave birth to another one. Happiness to them. So do not be that stewardess ... But by the way, as you want .. By the way, I advise you to recount all my spelling errors. As "something blurt out in response."
              1. Timeout
                Timeout April 28 2018 03: 50
                +3
                Quote: tracer
                Well, if you are a Polish “Makarov”, it’s not Makarov.

                What do you spin like a louse under your fingernail? Where did you see PM? The attempt to get out in any case failed ...


                - Is that your boy? - Who will say that this is a girl, let the first throw a stone at me! Ilya Ilf, Evgeny Petrov, "Twelve Chairs"
                1. tracer
                  tracer April 29 2018 03: 57
                  0
                  Confused? Again? A photo posted so as not to forget? In a dispute that didn’t exist, you blew it to the fullest. It was the “Polish Makarov” that was the “Makarov” about which I mentioned .. There are also a great many variants of “Kalash”, the essence of this does not change. At least bite yourself with anger. I asked you not to be "that stewardess", but I see you, I even like it ...
                  1. Timeout
                    Timeout April 29 2018 04: 23
                    +1
                    Quote: tracer
                    Confused? Again? A photo posted so as not to forget? In a dispute that wasn’t, you blew through

                    Not really? You are my friend along the way, not just a couch fighter, but also the most ordinary cave. For PM is PM, but not P-64 copy of PM. I understand you are the husband of that stewardess? The second is at least from you, cave?
              2. Mihail28
                Mihail28 April 28 2018 17: 09
                +3
                This is actually a replica with Walther PPK.
                Of the fundamental differences - reduced store capacity.
                The inscription on the photo is from a series of inscriptions on the fence.
                1. tracer
                  tracer April 29 2018 03: 48
                  0
                  For you, dorlzhny signs are not signs, but what heresy is written there generally. I’m not going to prove anything to you personally. consider yourself an expert. "Who is your doctor?"
                  1. Timeout
                    Timeout April 29 2018 05: 09
                    +1
                    Quote: tracer
                    I’m not going to prove to you personally

                    Yes and no! Already proved for example by this:
                    From Indonesia to Canada in 23 minutes. Upon approval:
                    Quote: tracer
                    I never go through the proxy.

                    Well, other examples of stars can be found nemereno.
  2. Dormidont
    Dormidont April 25 2018 16: 43
    0
    All new Polish weapons - well forgotten old German
    1. bouncyhunter
      bouncyhunter April 25 2018 17: 19
      +7
      Let's not rush to conclusions. For all my bias towards Poland and its weapons school - we better wait for feedback on the operation and use (even at the shooting range) of this GROTT.
      1. AlexMark
        April 25 2018 20: 07
        +5
        Good evening. Well for 10 years you can do something worthy smile Especially not the pioneers in this regard. I really liked the location of the controls of weapons, in my hands at least hold it, so to speak, to feel it live — whether reality corresponds to visual sensations.
        1. bouncyhunter
          bouncyhunter April 25 2018 20: 12
          +5
          Welcome hi I agree, as the king-emperor said in a cartoon: "I’m going to feel it, otherwise there is an optical illusion." . Externally - a worthy example. We should work with him at the shooting range, but better at the training ground. But - dreams, dreams ...
    2. tracer
      tracer April 28 2018 03: 00
      0
      You're right. You see what a chimera happened if you cross PM with Walter’s “motives” ..
  3. RaptorF22
    RaptorF22 April 25 2018 16: 49
    0
    It’s interesting to see what kind of self-loading rifle it turned out winkedModularity is a very good bonus and weight pleases winked I hope we will create something similar
    1. tracer
      tracer April 28 2018 03: 05
      +1
      Have you served in the army? Modularity, a thing very controversial in a real war. My experience shows that everything that is not “clipped” to a weapon is completely lost by personnel. Sometimes it was necessary to throw out "superfluous" because each gram of weight on the account.
      1. Timeout
        Timeout April 28 2018 04: 08
        +2
        Quote: tracer
        My experience shows.

        What kind of experience? Wars on the couch? It’s like PSO-1 you have repeatedly thrown from SVD to the SSBN and vice versa. Yakutsk how is it?
  4. VictorZhivilov
    VictorZhivilov April 25 2018 17: 06
    +2
    Thank you to the author for informing me. Honestly missed this news. I hope it turns out to be a worthy example of small arms. smile
    1. alex-cn
      alex-cn April 25 2018 17: 47
      +1
      Why is there no ball? winked
    2. Nosgoth
      Nosgoth April 26 2018 18: 57
      0
      do you advocate kurv?
  5. bunta
    bunta April 25 2018 18: 56
    +3
    Shutter Group a la FN SCAR.
    1. AlexMark
      April 25 2018 20: 02
      +3
      Also, at first I thought about SCAR, but, despite common similar decisions, there are differences.
    2. John22
      John22 April 27 2018 20: 54
      +1
      Not only.
  6. Glory1974
    Glory1974 April 25 2018 20: 14
    +7
    interesting sample. I don’t know how the Poles planned its development, but if you look back, it turns out quite logical. At first, Kalash was completely redesigned, most likely adapting it to its production capabilities and the technologies used. At the next stage, on the existing base, we fully developed our own model with the borrowing of existing technical solutions. Now the last step remains, intensive exploitation, the identification of diseases and their elimination. It may well turn out not bad.
  7. Operator
    Operator April 25 2018 21: 09
    +2
    Quote: tracer
    polygonal

    Polygonal.
    1. tracer
      tracer April 27 2018 20: 25
      0
      Thanks for the amendment. I repent "beguiled". I always write on the go, on the run. I apologize if anyone is very jarred.
  8. Operator
    Operator April 25 2018 21: 24
    +2
    Meanwhile, the Bundeswehr opted for the Haenel Mk 556 rifle, manufactured in Germany by GG Haenel GmbH, which is a 100% subsidiary of Tawazun from the United Arab Emirates (Heckler & Koch HK433 on dancers)


    Poles and Arabs rule, Kalashnikov smokes bamboo laughing
    1. tracer
      tracer April 27 2018 20: 35
      0
      Well, like RPK 16 muddied anything. Only the lid of it is lifted up for maintenance, and the sight mounted on the picatinics will stick in front of the receiver. You can’t put a long sight, that is, a powerful one. Shoot something every time? And then one horseradish loosens the connecting lids with ptkatini and receiver. Yes, and look at the video flame arrester - crosswise sawn steel cylinder.
      1. Timeout
        Timeout April 28 2018 03: 27
        +2
        Quote: tracer
        Only the lid he lifts up for maintenance

        Dear, where are the firewood from? Spit in your hands again? Or again sacred knowledge? But "Kalashnikov" claims another:
        Here is the link to the proof: https://kalashnikov.media/blog/4522028
  9. acetophenon
    acetophenon April 25 2018 21: 41
    +4
    Quote: Operator
    Meanwhile, the Bundeswehr opted for the Haenel Mk 556 rifle, manufactured in Germany by GG Haenel GmbH, which is a 100% subsidiary of Tawazun from the United Arab Emirates (Heckler & Koch HK433 on dancers)


    Poles and Arabs rule, Kalashnikov smokes bamboo laughing

    Well, the Poles were able to make the forend, which can be taken by hand without a Kevlar glove! Why are the Germans stupidly copying the American 4-sided saw? Yesterday I tried to take on such a "trunk" with my left hand ... PC!
  10. APASUS
    APASUS April 25 2018 22: 09
    +4
    It will be necessary to see in Afghanistan, for example, in the conditions of winter and temperature differences. Check for failure. Try to operate a couple of three years.
    In the meantime, shooting at the camera in the dash
  11. Fatoss
    Fatoss April 25 2018 23: 56
    +1
    Some Kalash drochory need to go forward Kalash last century
    1. AlexMark
      April 26 2018 00: 11
      +10
      Suggest a design that works smoothly in both -50 and + 50, which is easy to learn, even for those who find it harder to use shovels. Taking into account that Russia covers the most varied climatic zones, and the army is still being completed with recruits from yesterday's schoolchildren, the decision to still use AKs is quite rational and justified.
    2. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 April 26 2018 00: 25
      +10
      Quote: Fatoss
      Some Kalash drochory need to go forward Kalash last century

      I’m embarrassed to ask, did you invent a new ammunition? Or came up with a new automation scheme? On what principles of automation do you need a weapon? Or do you stupidly need a Picatinny rail with a tactical flashlight? Where are you going there forward? All automation schemes have been tried and studied for a long time.
      1. AlexMark
        April 26 2018 00: 49
        +7
        Universal mounting brackets are good when they are reasonable laughing The love of picatinny fastening quickly passes when they are hung from the 4 on the shank, and the handle, which you take on the shank, is bare, without gloves. Everything is good in moderation.
        In general, the need for attachment strips on military weapons should be decided not by the designer, but specifically by the question “Do I need it?” Addressed to who will use these weapons. At least I think so request
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 April 26 2018 01: 25
          +8
          Quote: AlexMark
          At least I think so

          I agree. And the type that scribbled above, let Kalash first learn to disassemble in 4 seconds. This Polish machine gun is beautiful, only how it behaves, no one really knows. And Kalash is time-tested. And you start thinking about the Bulpap scheme when the cartridges fly into your face. What is visible in the video. Although the machine is certainly interesting.
          1. AlexMark
            April 26 2018 01: 48
            +5
            With sleeves this is yes, you need to wisely separately in such a layout with a release either down or forward. Even if you first reassemble the weapon for shooting from the left shoulder, under the left-handed person, there is no guarantee that because of the location of the shelter behind which you will be, you will not have to shoot from the right shoulder. But if I had to choose between a stem that had been twice as short in length and a bullpup, I would have preferred all of them to bullpap.
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 April 26 2018 02: 06
              +3
              Quote: AlexMark
              you need to separately think in such a layout with a surge either down or forward.

              Which is a complication of the extraction mechanism, and as a result - a drop in reliability.
              Quote: AlexMark
              there is no guarantee that due to the location of the shelter you will be behind, you will not have to shoot from the right shoulder.

              Not only. You may just be hurt in the shoulder, you won’t be able, in which case to take my assault rifle, and I’m yours, because personally my leading eye is the left, so I shoot from the left shoulder. Alex, I don’t bother you much? I'm sick, that's boring. hi
              Quote: AlexMark
              But if you choose between a half-reduced barrel length and a bullpup, I would still prefer bullpup.

              That is yes, an argument.
              1. AlexMark
                April 26 2018 02: 27
                +3
                Absolutely not annoying))) And by the way, your machine will suit me smile The situation is similar with the leading left eye, although I hold the spoon with my right hand, to shoot that from a short-barreled weapon, that from a long-barreled one, from the left hand is much more convenient, or rather not so much more convenient, how much more efficient it turns out.
    3. Ivan Petrov-Vodkin
      Ivan Petrov-Vodkin April 26 2018 18: 43
      +2
      Where did this come from ?! Go do the lessons or play KSKU.
  12. Catfish
    Catfish April 26 2018 01: 34
    +5
    Quote: Fatoss
    Some Kalash drochory need to go forward Kalash last century


    Excuse me generously, but do you find it easy to translate into Russian? Thanks in advance. hi
  13. Catfish
    Catfish April 26 2018 01: 41
    +4
    Quote: RaptorF22n
    It’s interesting to see what kind of self-loading rifle it turned out winkedModularity is a very good bonus and weight pleases winked I hope we will create something similar

    Oh, my friend, I agree with you in everything about the production and ownership of the short barrel in our God-saving homeland, but do not hope that we will create something similar. The Kalashnikov concern will crush any initiative. They have been clamoring for one and the same idea for almost a hundred years, and they are not going to get off this stool. And Kalash at one time I really liked, only I served fifty years ago. hi
    1. RaptorF22
      RaptorF22 April 26 2018 03: 05
      +1
      Let's hope for the best hi In general, it would be interesting to find out who determines the direction and development of promising types of weapons in Kalashnikov Concern. Kalash is good, but you cannot stand still and rely on him, you only need to look at the future and not only think about military orders but also remember the civilian arms market wink
      1. AlexMark
        April 26 2018 03: 41
        +4
        As I understand it, now there is no what it was before - specific requirements from the army and already a competition for these requirements. Now it seems like all this works in the key "you do, do, and we will look at the result and may be interested."
        Well, about short-barrels, you need to start with changes in legislation, to improve the standard of living of the whole population, so that the need to use a pistol for self-defense was minimal, and if there was, then it was legitimate. Of course, you can just allow, but just let them warn you in advance, I will spend the first year or two in the cellar after permission laughing
        1. RaptorF22
          RaptorF22 April 26 2018 05: 36
          +1
          I think it’s possible to resolve wink no horrors as science fiction writers about shootings like to frighten and see how in America there will be winked After all, without ammunition, a weapon does not shoot winked You can sell a cop and sell cartridges for it at horse prices laughing And there’s no need to sit in the cellar lol
        2. RaptorF22
          RaptorF22 April 26 2018 05: 42
          +1
          Another option to allow but prescribe by law to wear only in shooting ranges at a shooting range or in nature wink So everything is possible, and fears and fears are rather far-fetched here wink
          1. AlexMark
            April 26 2018 05: 58
            +4
            If a weapon for recreational and sport shooting is necessary, then what is the problem of becoming an athlete in the same practical shooting? Not quite aware of the latest events, but not so long ago it was possible to become the owner of quite a gun or a revolver under such conditions.
            With the current legislation, you can simply turn on the calculator and calculate what is cheaper: give the phone a wallet without self-defense, active voluntarily, or spend a lot of nerves and money on lawyers and stuff with an unknown result. There is no possibility now for self-defense, even with bare hands. But in general, as one friend told me, there is nothing to go where they offer to buy brick laughing
            One more thing. Modern pistols have quite roomy shops. In the case of a pistol theft, the attacker will receive not only weapons but also cartridges. Let's say the gun was with 14 cartridges, well if he shoots them all somewhere in the bottle. Well, this way, the ability to get even one extra hole in the body somehow does not please me personally. I repeat once again that you need to start with improving the welfare of the entire population and not a separate group, so that a person has the opportunity to get decent pay, even doing the most simple and low-paying work. To give the opportunity to improve on the same job with a corresponding increase in payment. Usually, when a person has a well-adjusted life and doesn’t have a headache about what will happen tomorrow, he will not be drawn under the porch.
            1. RaptorF22
              RaptorF22 April 26 2018 06: 25
              +2
              Funny there is no opportunity for self defense lol It sounds like no self defense but you hold on lol If you become an athlete in practical shooting, it’s not possible to wear, say, outdoors in a forest on a picnic or hiking, but if the nearest shooting range or shooting range is 600 km away, this is not very inspiring to buy a cop fellow Even if you purchase for your money, it will not be stored at your place anyway, that is, it turns out not the owner of your weapon in fact, but only renting it, which categorically does not suit most potential buyers of cops No. In general, it is absurd to spend money time buying a cop and in the end it’s as if there is and how would it not be No. I talked with many and people want to buy a cop for self-defense in nature, they like it to be comfortable and comfortable for someone to shoot at the banks, not everyone likes to shoot from a crusher or carbine someone just to have wink People are ready to buy and spend a lot of money on it, which, in fact, they themselves earned normally and decide where to spend it, is another matter that they don’t have such a possibility due to our legislation and well-thought-out fears and phobias, I am absolutely convinced that as soon as the Constitutional Court resolves a rifled license, then there will be no problems out of the way 136 people take and there’s nothing even though before that how many screams and screams were this terrible machine fenced mass psychosis passed and everything is in order winked
              1. AlexMark
                April 26 2018 06: 50
                +3
                Well, the result was not a machine, but such a self-charging smile So I also want to put in my yard KPV, I earned myself, let me spend on such a thing laughing And also install a jet engine to dry the laundry. Why do not allow, do not even know smile
                Well, seriously, until there are normal changes in the legislation, while young people, even in the smallest town, have no prospects but to sit for an indefinite period, what kind of short-haul can we talk about? Suppose they were allowed to take out only in a “covered” form with the store separately. Do you think self-defense survivors from the sect "what if tomorrow the Kapets" will not carry this mess with themselves? I will even say more, there will be a new discipline in the clergy "who will quickly lead the gun into combat readiness." It is clear that there will be no global changes and mass firefights, but it is enough for me one opportunity out of a million to catch a bullet while sipping tea in my kitchen, just because a squirrel came to someone and it was a brilliant idea to go out and just to shoot. Or run into a company of armed young people under the substances. With the resolution of a short-barrel, the chances of such situations only increase.
                What about athletes. It seems that after the expiration of some period of time, is it allowed to wield a weapon on its territory or did it change this moment?
                1. RaptorF22
                  RaptorF22 April 26 2018 07: 15
                  0
                  You see, he himself admitted that there will be no mass shocks and shootings hi All these tales about how scary to live are all from the evil one. wink The cop is a rifled weapon, which means that it can be acquired only after 5 years of owning a smoothbore, all the owners of rifled carbines whom I know are quite adequate people. And the ability to catch a bullet is incredibly insignificant more risks to be hit by a car, and immediately fatal in an accident due to bad roads and yes, a drunk truck driver is many times more dangerous than a pistol or revolver which is in an apartment in a safe wink Well, young people under the substances that God forbid they attack you, they don’t necessarily need a cop or a firearm, baseball bats, knives or armature rods are much more dangerous precisely because they have nowhere to shoot back and leave no cartridges, so they are dangerous precisely because of its accessibility, as one friend of mine said, locks are for law-abiding citizens winked
            2. RaptorF22
              RaptorF22 April 26 2018 06: 52
              +1
              So that he doesn’t have 14 charging stores, it’s enough to limit it legally and the whole problem is solved, and getting into the target without even basic shooting training is quite problematic winked If a person buys a bolt, say Orsis, he does not immediately become a sniper wink Shooting from a rifled gun is not the same as shooting from a shotgun with a shotgun or buckshot compensate for the poor preparation of the shooter and you still need to hit the bullet accurately, especially since it is easy to determine the owner of the rifled gun so everything is in order wink
              1. AlexMark
                April 26 2018 06: 59
                +5
                As practice shows, attacks with short-barreled weapons are usually carried out at very short distances, but to miss it from one meter to be at least a domestic footballer smile
                1. RaptorF22
                  RaptorF22 April 26 2018 07: 18
                  +2
                  Korotkostvol rattles the knife, everything is quiet and license cartridges are unnecessary for him wink The question is why the criminal needs a cop if this is so much hemorrhoids and you can make a knife yourself or buy it for 100 rubles wink But no one forbids him
                  1. AlexMark
                    April 26 2018 07: 30
                    +3
                    Well, at least then, that the type of gun on the average person operates more efficiently. You still need to be able to use the knife, and it’s virtually impossible to get from the pistol to the point of rest even for the one who holds it for the first time. The attacker does not need a license, he only needs someone who has a pistol and a brick, which he will lower behind the owner of the weapon on his head and take the pistol along with the cartridges. Yes, the gun is not a quiet gun, only for some reason people don’t have a desire to immediately run and see who decided to shoot it there, because until someone pulls up to the scene of action there will be no one apart from the victim.
                    1. AlexMark
                      April 26 2018 07: 43
                      +3
                      Let's specifically why you need a shortbore. If for sports and for entertaining shooting, for this in the first case there are sports clubs, in the second case there are shooting galleries with the same clubs. If you need a weapon for self-defense, then there is no legislative basis for this, and even if you allow a short-barreled right now, then after using it you automatically become a criminal.
                      What conclusion can be made from this? Before resolving, lawmakers need to work, and this is a difficult task, they are not used to it. laughing
                      I used to be for permission, I will even say more, for permission of everything and everyone, including hard drugs. The basis of such an opinion then for me was natural selection, saying that all unnecessary personalities would be drunk themselves, if given the opportunity. But, as you can see, the opinion and worldview is changing)
                      1. RaptorF22
                        RaptorF22 April 26 2018 08: 11
                        0
                        You forget more hunters wink Americans can wear and use pistols and revolvers when hunting, and all is well. The power of a rifle or a shotgun is sometimes too excessive, and the weight for walking hunting or going on a picnic or camping also plays its last role; people want to buy what suits them best and this is normal self-defense it happens not only from people but also from wild animals, for example, I saw a video where an American praised TT and said that he always carried it with him on the hunt and he was happy with everything, why we also can’t get what suits us and what we are willing to spend money on? There are no serious problems here except for the unnecessary phobias and desires of clubs to warm their hands due to imperfect legislation
                    2. RaptorF22
                      RaptorF22 April 26 2018 07: 45
                      +1
                      To scare the average person, you don’t need a real cop. A large number of pneumatics or UPC models of real or converted weapons are currently for sale. wink Moreover, there is an article on the illegal possession of weapons so attacking in order to seize registered and especially shot weapons is utter stupidity and forgive insanity if even in theory it takes possession it is guaranteed to unwind half life in prison wink Look how many owners of weapons are in the military style and there’s nothing that they don’t stun with bricks. lol
                      1. AlexMark
                        April 26 2018 07: 48
                        +2
                        Well, they do not wear saiga on a daily basis? smile Why attack them? If a gun is aimed at you now, then you are more likely to define it as an MMG or you will recognize pneumatics in it, with the spread of a short-barreled doubt that the conclusions will be correct.
                        Solve a personal question. Do you have children? smile
                    3. Dmitry 80
                      Dmitry 80 April 26 2018 21: 49
                      +1
                      In short, decisions are made instantly. That is, a shot will immediately follow. Where it gets, it’s different, and it may turn out that you can’t make a second shot.
  14. nikoliski
    nikoliski April 26 2018 03: 39
    +3
    I think it was enough to start production of Kalashi under 5.56mm and with NATO mounts, and then it’s a waste of money, it is not yet known how a completely new machine will show itself, it can wedge or overheat, in short minus them.
    1. AlexMark
      April 26 2018 03: 54
      +3
      They did this until the end of 2017 of the year, from an economic point of view it is of course logical, and there’s nothing to argue about. Nevertheless, if a light machine gun, a self-loading rifle is created on the same base, it is doubtful, but a single machine gun can also, then such a transition will pay back. It is impossible not to take into account that this is Poland, and the AK because the Soviet smile
      This product looked in full "uniform" so here it is interesting:
  15. kos2cool4u
    kos2cool4u April 26 2018 07: 11
    +2
    To steal the idea and design from Magpul (USA) and call it yours - as it is in Polish)))))) .... LOL !!))
    1. AlexMark
      April 26 2018 07: 22
      +3
      If I were a Pole, I would be offended at you))) The concept of modularity has already been living for decades. The division of the receiver into the upper and lower parts is also a so-called patented solution, a common automation system with Masada, so, I'm sorry, I’m from the memory of more than a dozen automata with the same automation I will call, the implementation is even different. Unarguably "pushed" on the Polish designers, now as they run, also 39 will be remembered in September smile
      1. VictorZhivilov
        VictorZhivilov April 26 2018 21: 06
        0
        Brawo! Dziękujemy. hi
  16. Cananecat
    Cananecat April 26 2018 08: 45
    +3
    It will be possible to invent something new when a new way of giving movement to the body is invented. And up to this point, you can compete as much as you like in the practicality and reliability of small arms.
  17. gorenina91
    gorenina91 April 26 2018 08: 50
    +1
    -I'm not an expert, but this machine gun looks cool ... -But still, the Poles will not be allowed to arm their army ... -there, after all, everything is according to the NATO model ... -Here, they will hand over to the Poles NATO rifles and machine guns ... - It’s not in vain that Trump now demands from everyone money “for membership” in NATO ... -that they will pay for NATO rifles ... including ...
    1. AlexMark
      April 26 2018 13: 48
      +5
      The Poles are already arming this machine, the production of which has already been established. There is a possibility that when they themselves are stung, they will make a civilized version of the weapon as it was with Tantal, then it will be possible to touch this device for everyone, even if in a stripped-down version without automatic fire.
      1. RaptorF22
        RaptorF22 April 26 2018 13: 58
        +2
        And when will civilized Aek or Abakan appear in our country? I think we definitely found buyers wink
        1. AlexMark
          April 26 2018 14: 06
          +3
          Give the first one first to come to the army normally. smile And yes, the buyers for the Nikonov machine would be found, for the whole of Russia, a 500 person, since the price tag due to small-scale production would be such that they would start looking towards foreign weapons. Economy she is a ruthless female dog laughing
          1. RaptorF22
            RaptorF22 April 27 2018 01: 08
            0
            Not arches for 110 or even 200 winkedand after them it’s the turn to line up for years ahead, our aeks and Abakans also took but fellow but not in a hurry to compete wink
  18. the47th
    the47th April 26 2018 10: 26
    +2
    Personally, I really liked the decision to refuse the version of the machine with a shortened barrel in favor of the bullpup layout.

    This is a huge mistake. From a bullpup, it is extremely inconvenient to fire from inside the car, from around the corner, etc. In general, from almost all positions except the standard one, with the back plate resting on the shoulder.
    And I still do not understand: why is the army machine modular?
    1. AlexMark
      April 26 2018 13: 45
      +3
      Modularity is needed primarily in order to save. Take, say, the same lower part of the receiver with the trigger of the Polish GROT in the classical layout. It can be applied in a self-loading sniper rifle, a light machine gun. That is, instead of 3 different nodes, one is made with minimal changes. When repairing weapons, we get the same advantage, plus simplified training of personnel. Well, the fact that they usually put "in plus" a change in the length of the barrel during hostilities or a change in the used ammunition is, of course, nonsense.
      1. the47th
        the47th April 26 2018 14: 22
        +3
        This is called not modularity - but unification. Unification is a good thing. Weapons have been unified for a long time. And modularity is exactly
        Quote: AlexMark
        changing barrel length during hostilities or changing ammunition used
        .
        1. AlexMark
          April 26 2018 15: 11
          +3
          I can not agree. Unification is when, for example, the same USM is used in different classes of weapons, in the case of modularity, the already assembled “module” is taken, that is, specifically the lower part of the receiver in our case, with the magazine receiver, the assembled trigger mechanism, weapon controls and so on further, and back is used in different classes of weapons. That is, modularity can be considered a further development of unification.
          The ability to quickly change the used ammunition for military weapons is really not needed, but in civilian weapons from such a possibility is a clear benefit, any hunter will confirm this. True, the emphasis should be placed not on the ability to change the calibers directly at the hunting place, but on the speed and ease of preparing weapons even at home, to hunt for a particular beast.
          1. RaptorF22
            RaptorF22 April 27 2018 01: 10
            0
            Agree wink we will wait when our something is bungled
  19. Chever
    Chever April 26 2018 15: 38
    +1
    This gun was clearly made with a small looking at the ACR (at least I suppose, but I do not say so)
  20. Catfish
    Catfish April 27 2018 00: 39
    +2
    Quote: Chever
    This gun was clearly made with a small looking at the ACR (at least I suppose, but I do not say so)


    So they practically did everything, with rare exceptions, with an “eye out” for foreign samples. Before the war - VIS (Colt 1911), PP "Mors" (MP-18), M29 (Mauser 98). After the war - PP M1943 / 52 (PPS-43), and then came the Kalashnikov clones, which were already mentioned. The only development of its own is PP-63 or Glauberit, and I’m not completely sure. So, what can I say about the identity of the Polish arms school. Although it may have turned out they made a decent assault rifle. But it’s too early to talk about, time will tell. hi
  21. da Vinci
    da Vinci April 27 2018 13: 41
    +2
    Perhaps this machine is not perfect, but there is a development of shooting equipment. I don’t even want to talk about the epic with AK-12. - it’s just a shame: in a big power with talented people, just a dozen officials were promoted and drank a lot of money. result: tuning for $ 100 and two dozen commercials! No.
    1. RaptorF22
      RaptorF22 April 27 2018 18: 38
      0
      This happens when there is no competition. wink The more competitors, the better the rivalry between them is; as a result, the sample that shows the highest characteristics wins winked But with our prohibitions, the number of competitors will not be openly scanty; as a result, we see subsequently sad
      1. da Vinci
        da Vinci April 27 2018 20: 55
        0
        These are the realities. A perfect example is the ORSIS rifles, to which ROGozin did not reach. In the group of "Kalashnikov" managers are not led by engineers, but by the menaGers and lead the concern in .....! belay
  22. John22
    John22 April 27 2018 21: 07
    +2
    Yes, the Poles succeeded. There is an end result. With automatic shooting it is steady in a roller. A reliable operation time will tell.
  23. pytar
    pytar April 29 2018 18: 48
    0
    Watching the video it seems that the weapon is very well balanced! Does not "play" with automatic shooting!