Military Review

"Black Baron" Wrangell

162
"Black Baron" Wrangell
90 years ago, 25 April 1928, the “black baron” Peter Nikolayevich Wrangel died. He became famous as a talented officer and cavalryman during the First World War and one of the greatest leaders of the White Army and the Russian white emigration.


Origin and Education

Petr Nikolaevich Wrangel was born on 15 (27) in August 1878 in a family that belonged to the old Baltic noble family, who led their history from the XIII century by Henrikus de Wrangel, knight of the Teutonic Order. The motto of the Wrangel family was: "Frangas, non flectes" (from the Latin. - "Break, but you will not bend"). Wrangel himself was a direct descendant of the Swedish field marshal Hermann the Elder (17th century), his great-grandson George Gustav was a colonel with Charles XII, and his son Georg Hans became a major in the Russian army. Being in the Russian service, Wrangel were members of almost all the wars that Russia waged in the XVIII-XIX centuries., Held high positions in the civil service, and some became well-known public figures. Thus, the famous explorer and polar explorer was Ferdinand Wrangel - his name is Wrangel Island in the Arctic Ocean, as well as other geographical features in the Arctic and Pacific Oceans. In addition, the Wrangel genus managed to intermarry with many noble families, so AP Hannibal (A. Pushkin's great-grandfather) was among Peter Nikolaevich's ancestors.

Thus, Peter Nikolaevich inherited the baronial title and inclination to military affairs. However, his father, Nikolai Egorovich, preferred entrepreneurship. He worked in the Russian Society of Shipping and Trade (the largest shipping company in the country), and also served on the board of several coal-mining joint-stock companies in Rostov. In addition, family income provided the estate in the Minsk province. Peter spent his childhood in this estate. From an early age, he was distinguished from his peers by his tall height, strength, dexterity, and extraordinary mobility. His father loved the hunt for which he took his sons. He noted that “to their great pride and my confusion, they soon put me in my belt, especially Peter.”

In 1896, Peter Nikolayevich graduated from the Rostov real school. After the tragic death of the youngest son of Vladimir, the Wrangel family moved to Petersburg. The father managed to find his place in the financial circles due to his connections with the Minister of Finance S. Yu. Vitte and the director of the St. Petersburg International Commercial Bank A. Yu. Rotshtein. Petr Nikolaevich entered the Mining Institute, the leading educational institution of the empire for the preparation of engineering personnel. Having shown brilliant results in school, in 1901, he graduated from college with a gold medal.

Service

Peter Nikolayevich as a “volunteer” was called in the Life Guards Horse Regiment, where Wrangel traditionally served. It was one of the elite regiments of the Guards cavalry, which was part of the 1-th Guards Cavalry Division. The honorary commander of horse guards was the king himself. One year later, having passed the 1 examination in the Nikolaevsky Cavalry School, Peter received the first cornet officer rank. However, the young and violent temper of the hereditary nobleman played a bad joke with him: because of the drunken antics witnessed by the regimental commander Trubetskoy, the candidacy of Pyotr Nikolayevich was harassed during the officer's vote, which determined the possibility of further service in the regiment.

Leaving military service, Wrangel went to the disposal of the Irkutsk Governor-General as an official on special assignments. When the Russian-Japanese war began, Peter Nikolaevich voluntarily joined the Manchurian army, where he served in two Cossack regiments. He was part of the detachment of General Rennenkampf, one of the best cavalry commanders of the time. Wrangel became the participant of numerous transitions and skirmishes with the opponent. As PN, who served with him, wrote Shatilov: “In the Manchu war, Wrangel instinctively felt that the struggle was his element, and his work was his vocation.” In December 1904 of the year he was promoted to centurion "for distinguishing himself in cases against the Japanese" and was awarded the Order of St. Anna 4 of the 13th degree with the inscription "For Bravery" and St. Stanislav of 3 of the 13th degree with swords and a bow. The period of the war with Japan gave the young man useful contacts that helped him in his future career.

After the end of the war, he was assigned to the 55 th Dragoon Finnish Regiment and promoted to the rank of captain. From there, he was soon seconded to the Northern squad of Major-General Orlov, who was engaged in the suppression of revolutionary demonstrations in the Baltic States. During the revolution, loyalty to the throne was rewarded generously. As early as May 1906, Tsar Nicholas II personally deigned to welcome Peter Nikolaevich the Order of St. Anne 3 st. And in March, 1907, again received an appointment in the Life Guards Horse Regiment with the rank of lieutenant. At one of the parades he was noted by the sovereign. In the future, Peter Nikolaevich will meet with the sovereign more than once. He was a staunch monarchist, Wrangel spoke positively about the last sovereign, but was extremely dissatisfied with the king's entourage.

Coming from a noble and wealthy family, a Guards officer, Wrangell quickly became his highest class. He married the daughter of a chamberlain of the Highest Court and a large landowner Olga Mikhailovna Ivanenko, the maid of honor of Empress Alexandra Feodorovna. They had four children: Elena, Peter, Natalya and Alexey (they lived a long life, they passed away in our modern era). Judging by Wrangel’s “Notes” and his letters to his wife, they had a very warm relationship. Olga Mikhailovna actually saved her husband during the revolutionary terror, nursed typhus during the epidemic, and helped settle abroad.

As General P.N. recalled about Peter Nikolaevich. Shatilov: “It was a secular man who loved society, a beautiful dancer and conductor at balls and an indispensable participant in officer-friendly meetings. Already in his early years, he had an amazing ability to express his judgment unusually vividly, figuratively, and briefly on all sorts of questions. It made him an extremely interesting conversationalist. ” However, he also had disadvantages characteristic of the aristocracy of that time. Thus, his contemporaries noted his aristocratic arrogance, quick temper (nervous character). Not left in the past and addiction to drinking. For his love of Piper Heidsick champagne, he received the nickname "Piper."

Wrangel entered the elite Nicholas Academy of the General Staff, where he showed good academic results. In 1910, Mr. Petr Nikolayevich graduated from the Academy one of the best, but he did not want to leave for the headquarters position. As Wrangel himself noted: “I am not a good officer for the General Staff officers. Their task is to advise the superiors and put up with the fact that the council will not accept. I love too much to carry out my own opinion. ” Then he was sent to the Officer Cavalry School, after which in 1912 he returned to his regiment. Here Wrangel was given command of a squadron, in 1913, the rank of captain.

World War I

From the very beginning of the First World War, Peter Wrangel was at the front. His regiment was part of the equestrian corps of Khan Nakhichevan, who acted on the right flank of the 1 of the Russian army, General von Rennenkampf. Already 16 August 1914, the cavalry crossed the border of East Prussia. Before the Russian troops stood 8-I German army. After crossing the border, Russian troops of Rennenkampf moved forward with the battles. The commander decided to send the cavalry corps around the enemy’s left flank in the direction of Insterburg.

In the area of ​​the village of Kaushen, the Russian cavalry unexpectedly collided with the German 2 Land Brigade. Despite the maneuverability advantage, the cavalry dismounted and were drawn into a protracted battle. Several attempts to go on the attack were repulsed. However, the advantage was on the side of our troops: training (compared with the German storekeepers), as well as numerical and fire superiority. The Germans began to retreat, leaving as a cover two guns, whose front were lined with our artillery fire. It was at this time that the famous feat of Wrangel took place, which, together with his squadron, was in reserve. As commander of the Life Guards of the Horse Regiment noted, General B. E. Hartman: “Wrangel did not find a place for himself with impatience. News of the losses, of the murdered comrades reached him and only intensified his protest against the fact that he had to remain in the rear when his comrades were fighting. Finally, he could not stand it. By this time, General Kaznakov, the commander of the 1 Guards Cavalry Division, was approached from His Majesty's battery 1 observation post by Lieutenant Gershelman and reported that the enemy’s weapons were in a difficult situation and that if they were to help dispersed units with fresh forces, they could be seized. Hearing this, Wrangel literally begged to allow him to attack ... ". After receiving permission, he led a decisive attack in the equestrian ranks. The Germans gave a few volleys, our troops suffered significant losses (a horse was killed near Wrangel). As a result, the Russian guards reached the guns and captured them. In the future, they were exhibited as trophies in Petrograd.

It was this Causeni battle that was repeatedly described in various articles and memoirs of white emigres. After all, it was the first and in fact, the only one of its kind, cavalry attack of world war, the first serious combat episode of the Russian Guards cavalry. And the actual victory, as the German troops retreated. Russian cavalry showed courage, among the dead and distinguished were representatives of many noble families. Thus, this fight (in fact, one of the many skirmishes and battles in this war) became known in high society and at court. The dissemination of information was also facilitated by Nakhichevan, apparently intriguing against Rennenkampf. This caused a flood of rewards. Wrangel received the Order of St. George 4 degree, becoming, thus, perhaps the first officer - George Knight of the First World War. However, in general, it was a mistake of the Russian command. Nakhichevan did not use the mobility of cavalry, did not pursue the enemy and, justifying the high losses and expenditure of ammunition, he took the troops to the rear and did not complete the task. As a result, due to the lack of cavalry on the right wing during the Gumbinnen battle, the 1 army was almost completely defeated. Therefore, Rennenkampf negatively evaluated the actions of the Nakhichevan cavalry in this battle.

Later, together with his regiment, Wrangel participated in advancing deep into East Prussia. At the beginning of September, the 1 Brigade of the 1 Guards Cavalry Division was withdrawn from the front and entered at the disposal of the commandant of the fortress of Kovno. When, after the defeat of the 2 of the Russian army, the hasty retreat of the 1 of the army began to the border, and then beyond the r. Neman, unrest began in the rear. Two squadrons of the Life Guards Horse Regiment (including Wrangel's squadron) were sent to the area of ​​Mariampol, where they restored order in the rear of the 20 corps.

In mid-September, the Combined Cavalry Division was formed on the basis of the Guards Cavalry Brigade, General P.P. Skoropadsky (the future puppet hetman of Ukraine) became its commander, and Wrangel became the head of the headquarters. At first, the division was intended for the defense of Warsaw, but then it was transferred to the 10 Army and participated in the battles for the August forests. In October, the Combined Division was reformed into Guards Cuirassier, which was taken to rest and rebuild in the Baranavichy district, where the Supreme Commander’s Headquarters was located. Here horse guards took part in guarding the headquarters. Wrangell was appointed deputy commander of the Life Guards of the Horse Regiment for the combat unit. In October, the King visited the headquarters. By his order, Wrangel was awarded the Order of St. Vladimir IV degree with swords and bow. In December, Wrangel was appointed to the retinue of the emperor (aide-de-camp), which indicated a special proximity to the sovereign. He also received the rank of colonel.

Wrangel returned to the front in January 1915 g. His division was located on the river. Pilica, and a month later was transferred to the 10 th army. In late February, an offensive was launched by the armies of the North-Western Front, which went down in history as the Prasnysh operation. On March 2, in the area of ​​Mariampol, the 3 corps went on the offensive, and the 1 cavalry brigade of the 1 guards cavalry division was sent to the guard of its right flank. 5 in March Wrangel with two squadrons went against the enemy departing from the village of Dauksha. Horse guardsmen managed to overturn two enemy companies, they captured 12 prisoners, four charging boxes and a wagon train. For this case, Wrangel was awarded the St. George weapons.

Later horse guards remained in the area, mainly engaged in reconnaissance. In May 1915, the Germans broke through the Russian front near Gorlitsy, our armies began to retreat. In early June, Wrangel, as part of his division, fought on the Kozlov-Rudsk positions, on the approaches to the strategic fortress of Kovno. He personally supervised the actions of various squadrons, which had to be especially hard because of the low morale of some infantry units. By mid-June, the Kozlovo-Rudsky positions were finally abandoned, and horse guards retreated to the Neman. 1-I Guards Cavalry Division became part of the cavalry corps of General Kaznakov (5-I army). In July, the 5 Army conducted defensive battles, and gradually receded under the onslaught of the enemy. Cavalry was covering her left flank. Only by the end of the month did the Russian troops break away from the enemy, entrenched, and the cavalry withdrew to the r. Sventa. In the future, Wrangel along with his regiment participated in the battles on the river. Svente, and in September - in the elimination of the Sventsian breakthrough, when the German cavalry plunged into our rear.

In October, Wrangel 1915 was transferred to the South-Western Front and appointed commander of the 1 Nerchinsk regiment of the Ussurian horse brigade (later deployed to the division), commanded by General A. Krymov. When translating, Wrangel gave the following description to his former commander: “Outstanding courage. Understands the situation beautifully and quickly, very resourceful in difficult conditions. " The Ussuriisk division took part in the Lutsk breakthrough. In mid-August, the Nerchintsy sustained a heavy battle with the 43 German Regiment, and in mid-September, 118 prisoners and a large number of weapons and ammunition were captured during the fighting in the Carpathians. For this, the Nerchinsky regiment received thanks from the sovereign, and the crown prince Alexey was appointed his chief.

At the end of the 1916, the Ussurian division was deployed on the Romanian front. New steps in the military career of Peter Nikolaevich became the rank of Major General, “for military distinction,” in January 1917 and his appointment as commander of the 2 brigade of the Ussurian horse division, then in July 1917 - commander of the 7 th cavalry division, and after - Commander of the Consolidated Cavalry Corps. For a successful operation on the Zbruch River in the summer of 1917, General Wrangel was awarded a fourth-degree St. George soldier’s cross.

Attitude to the Revolution

Wrangel’s attitude to February and October was negative. Of course, he saw the difficulties that Russia faced during the war. Wrangel noticed and gradually growing discontent and decomposition of the troops. In his "Notes" a lot is said about the collapse of the army and the front, about unacceptable interference in the affairs of the army of soldiers' committees, about harmful flirting with the people. On the one hand, the general clearly believed that the soldier and Cossack element is not reliable enough - it is easily amenable to propaganda, it requires a strong hand. On the other hand, he attached great importance to the feeling of unity of the soldiers and the commander. Several times in The Notes, Wrangel describes a situation where he was able to "take possession of the troops," that is, to achieve sincere love and obedience to the soldiers. When the manifesto of Grand Duke Mikhail Alexandrovich about the unwillingness to take the throne was read, Pyotr Nikolayevich said: "This is the end, this is anarchy." As the general quite rightly noted: “With the fall of the tsar, the very idea of ​​power fell, in the concept of the Russian people all binding obligations disappeared, and the power and these obligations could not be replaced by the corresponding ones”. The general condemned his fellow servicemen who “walked in the wake of” liberals and democrats. Wrangel was ready to support the Kornilov coup, and towards the end of the Provisional Government, he insisted on his resignation.

After October Wrangel went to Crimea with his family. Here in February 1918, he was arrested by revolutionary sailors, but escaped execution thanks to the intercession of local residents and his wife.

To be continued ...
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  1. Olgovich
    Olgovich April 25 2018 06: 08
    +14
    “Outstanding courage.” He understands the situation perfectly and quickly, is very resourceful in difficult conditions. ”

    Volunteer, a veteran of two wars for the Fatherland, a competent and brave officer, fighting for Russia to the end.
    Worthy of respect and memory.
    Monument to Peter Nikolaevich in the Crimea.
    1. Cat
      Cat April 25 2018 06: 28
      +15
      Olegovich, no offense!
      Wrangel is a rather controversial figure on the “chessboard” during the years of the Civil War.
      We will not find the truth, even after a century! So the truth is somewhere in the middle ....
      Only one Wrangel is true - the hero, martyr and faithful son of the Fatherland in one person deserves respect. There is only one problem, we still see our Motherland either only white or red! I hope that our children will cross this red and white line.
      Yours faithfully,
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 April 25 2018 06: 37
        +6
        Well, if the children will be interested. The next generation has more than enough cause for concern.
      2. rkkasa xnumx
        rkkasa xnumx April 25 2018 08: 31
        +7
        Quote: Kotischa
        Wrangel is a rather controversial figure

        You put it too tactfully about a pretzel like Wrangel.
        Quote: Kotischa
        We will not find the truth

        If you really want to know the truth, then you should at least try to look for it. For example, I recommend that you familiarize yourself with this:
        https://arctus.livejournal.com/178119.html
        https://remi-meisner.livejournal.com/161058.html
      3. Monarchist
        Monarchist April 25 2018 09: 55
        +8
        Kotishche, I’m stroking you by the hair: “There is only one trouble, we are still our kind of only white or red” this is our main misfortune.
        The idiological cliches are very tenacious: with great difficulty, the society accepted that the RPE or PMW were not what they provoke, but the Feat always remains the Feats, and Courage is always worthy of respect. The time will come when we will learn to perceive our story in all Color shades
      4. Olgovich
        Olgovich April 25 2018 10: 16
        +6
        Quote: Kotischa
        There is only one problem, we still see our Motherland either only white or red!

        For a long time there have been neither those whites, nor those reds. ...
        And the Homeland cannot be, respectively, today neither white nor red. She is another ....
        Glory, glory, you are my Russia,
        Glory to you, our Russian land.
        May it be strong forever and ever
        Our beloved home country.
        .

        Glory, glory, from generation to generation,
        Glory to our great Russian people.
        Enemies encroaching on the edge of the native,
        Razi merciless powerful hand
        .

        So be it...

        2. There are two worst, in my opinion, disasters of the 20th century: the collapse of the 91st year and the Russian Cross.
        And the one who is responsible single-handedly The rules are obvious.
        A line has been drawn under this and - we live on without repeating the mistakes of the past
        Quote: Kotischa
        I hope that our children will cross this red and white line

        Yes, these traits do not exist among them; both are quite indifferent to them. They have other interests and concerns. But the whites who advocate for Russia are nevertheless more understandable to them than others who advocate an incomprehensible tyrnational.
        Best regardshi
        1. rkkasa xnumx
          rkkasa xnumx April 25 2018 13: 01
          +9
          Quote: Olgovich
          Homeland can not be, respectively, today neither white nor red

          Words are so splendid ... Homeland ... touching rhymes ... but the essence of your kament, as always lying.
          Today's Russia, it’s just blya.
          Oligarchs and raising money to treat children; yachts and limousines for some, and how to pay housing and communal services - for others; different justice for Mary, and for the simple Vasya Pupkin; patriotic rhetoric, and billions in the countries of the likely adversary; degradation of industry, health, science, education - all this is blya Russia.
          It was for such Russia that Wrangels-Kolchaks-Denikins fought. And it’s precisely from them that heroes are being molded in full.
          Quote: Olgovich
          whites who advocate for Russia are nevertheless more understandable to them than others who advocate an incomprehensible tyrnational

          Xs, xs ... I think that when children grow up, having seen enough of the current white Russia, they will be able to make the right choice.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich April 25 2018 15: 13
            +7
            Quote: rkkasa 81
            ... touching poems

            "touching poems" - and this is you about the famous work of M. Glinka to the glory of the Russian people ?! Who are you, where do such haters of Russia come from?belay : fool
            Quote: rkkasa 81
            kamenta your

            Kament is that? lol
            Quote: rkkasa 81
            Oligarchs and raising money to treat children; yachts and limousines for some, and how to pay housing and communal services - for others; different justice for Mary, and for the simple Vasya Pupkin; patriotic rhetoric, and billions in the countries of the likely adversary; degradation of industry, health, science, education - all this is blya Russia.

            White Russia is a doubling of the population in 22 years (by the 17th), it is the largest country in the world, this is a jury trial, freedom elections, words, meetings, parties, you destroyed it all in the bud, it’s very difficult to restore it ...
            And precisely for thisdestroyed by you , Russia
            Quote: rkkasa 81
            Wrangels-Kolchaks-Denikins fought.

            Quote: rkkasa 81
            Xs, xs ... I think that when children grow up, having seen enough of the current white Russia, they will be able to make the right choice

            Even with your comprehensive propaganda, pressure, a ban on a different opinion, you don’t ...lol could, but now ... lol
            1. rkkasa xnumx
              rkkasa xnumx April 25 2018 19: 29
              +2
              Quote: Olgovich
              the famous work of M. Glinka

              From this rhyme did not cease to be touching.
              Quote: Olgovich
              White Russia is a doubling of the population in 22 years

              And? In some African or Asian Papuan, the population is also growing steadily. Only here is the growth of the population, this is not equal to the growth of wealth.
              Quote: Olgovich
              Even with your comprehensive propaganda, pressure, a ban on a different opinion, you couldn’t ... they could, but now ...

              At the beginning of the XNUMXth century, despite the pressure, they could. I think that sooner or later, once again we can.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich April 26 2018 06: 53
                +3
                Quote: rkkasa 81
                From this rhyme did not cease to be touching.

                How you hate everything Russian, just amazing!
                Quote: rkkasa 81
                In some African or Asian Papuan, the population is also growing steadily

                Is there advanced world science and a better world culture in Papuan? fool
                Quote: rkkasa 81
                Only here is the growth of the population, this is not equal to the growth of wealth.

                Well, well-being is when the number of births in five years falls by almost TWO times (1933) and 7 million people die of hunger in the same year? By the way, someone selflessly lied that the population under socialism increased per year to Finland and did not consider this to be Papuan ...
                Quote: rkkasa 81
                At the beginning of the XNUMXth century, despite the pressure, they could. I think that sooner or later, again we can.

                So you are not ... hi
            2. Olgovich
              Olgovich April 26 2018 11: 04
              +2
              Quote: Olgovich
              is a doubling of the population for 22 years (to the 17th)

              For 50 years. And for 22 years by 1917, 50%.
            3. your1970
              your1970 14 May 2018 13: 34
              +1
              Quote: Olgovich
              White Russia is a doubling of the population in 22 years (by the 17th), it is the largest country in the world, this is a jury trial, freedom of election, speech, assembly, parties - you destroyed it all in the bud, it is very difficult to restore it ...
              -only WHY SOMETHING all(!!!) the country was united from this, as well as from the king ...
              "The troublemakers embarrassed the good people ??!"

              Quote: Olgovich
              And precisely for such Russia destroyed by you
              Quote: rkkasa 81
              Wrangels-Kolchaks-Denikins fought.
              - here it’s generally fun - because to some GENERAL (not even a program !!!) IDEA - the white movement never came .. Actually ...
              And this, by the way, is one of the reasons for the defeat of the White Movement ..
              A dozen white governments / generals were unable to agree among themselves not only about the future of Russia, but at least about a banal one (for warring generals !!!) SIMULTANEOUSLY blow to the RSFSR ...
              Well, or they are complete mediocrity in military affairs ...
          2. Weyland
            Weyland April 25 2018 17: 50
            +2
            Quote: rkkasa 81
            Today's Russia, it’s just blya.

            why? Among the White Guards, representatives of the propertied classes were, EMNIP, only a few percent! And modern Russia is ideologically the heir not of RI, but of February Russia, when the "capitalist ministers" just came to power!
      5. EwgenyZ
        EwgenyZ April 25 2018 12: 04
        +7
        Quote: Kotischa
        Wrangel is a rather controversial figure on the “chessboard” during the years of the Civil War.

        And then who was "white and fluffy"? There was a civil war, all the "distinguished" and the red, and white, and green. You just need to remember all the outstanding personalities of that era, regardless of their place in the trenches .... This is our story, whatever it may be ....
    2. rkkasa xnumx
      rkkasa xnumx April 25 2018 08: 09
      +12
      Quote: Olgovich
      Volunteer, a veteran of two wars for the Fatherland, a competent and brave officer, fighting for Russia to the end

      The hilarious hirelings of the British and French, who fought with their people.
      1. RUSS
        RUSS April 25 2018 08: 54
        +7
        Quote: rkkasa 81
        Quote: Olgovich
        Volunteer, a veteran of two wars for the Fatherland, a competent and brave officer, fighting for Russia to the end

        The hilarious hirelings of the British and French, who fought with their people.

        Alex, to the joy of modern Russia do not think so!

        April 4, 2017 in Russia established the literary and artistic Prize. Lieutenant General, Baron P.N. Wrangel (Wrangel Prize).
        1. rkkasa xnumx
          rkkasa xnumx April 25 2018 09: 21
          +10
          Quote: RUSS
          in modern Russia they don’t think so ... in Russia a literary and art award named after Lieutenant General Baron P.N. Wrangel (Wrangel Prize)

          In modern Russia, they think and do a lot of nasty things. They can erect a monument to fascist litter, they can hang Mannerheim’s board, they can repent to the Poles and Germans; but this does not mean that everyone agrees with such thinking and doing.
          Most, all the same, are at least doubtful of such initiatives.
          1. RUSS
            RUSS April 25 2018 10: 24
            +3
            Quote: rkkasa 81
            Most, all the same, are at least doubtful of such initiatives.

            Do you have a survey?
            1. rkkasa xnumx
              rkkasa xnumx April 25 2018 10: 30
              +1
              Quote: RUSS
              in modern Russia they don’t think so

              Quote: RUSS
              Do you have a survey?
            2. Olgovich
              Olgovich April 25 2018 11: 38
              +6
              Quote: RUSS
              Quote: rkkasa 81
              Most, all the same, at least with doubt refers to such initiatives.

              You conduct a survey?

              Nope, this is such a mania for some: "Мы, most ... " lol
              1. rkkasa xnumx
                rkkasa xnumx April 25 2018 12: 20
                +2
                Quote: Olgovich
                Nope, this is such a mania for some

                write on behalf of Russia:
                Quote: RUSS
                in modern Russia they don’t think so
          2. RUSS
            RUSS April 25 2018 15: 12
            +2
            Quote: rkkasa 81
            Can a monument to fascist litter put

            Who is this?
            Quote: rkkasa 81
            Can a monument to fascist litter put

            Mannerheim is the hero of World War I, for which a memorial plaque was erected, if anything, remember that Mannerheim is not an accomplice and not a criminal according to the results of World War II.
            Quote: rkkasa 81
            can repent to the Poles and Germans

            There is something to repent of, therefore we repent - there were black pages of history and we remember them and do not distort or replace them, this is me about Katyn.
            1. APIS
              APIS April 25 2018 16: 12
              +5
              Who is this?

              Krasnov, for example.
              Mannerheim is the hero of World War I, for which a memorial plaque was erected, if anything, remember that Mannerheim is not an accomplice and not a criminal according to the results of World War II.

              Just because I gave up on time. Forget the blockade of Leningrad and the concentration camp?
              There is something to repent of, therefore we repent - there were black pages of history and we remember them and do not distort or replace them, this is me about Katyn.

              For Katyn, let those who did this and those who took the blame repent (EP faction from the State Duma). IN NO ONE COURT WINE OF THE USSR IS NOT PROVEN.
              1. your1970
                your1970 14 May 2018 14: 04
                +1
                Quote: APIS
                Just because I gave up on time. Forget the blockade of Leningrad and the concentration camp?

                1) Stalin deleted the name of Mannegraim from the lists. He could solve this issue - you are not, are not authorized
                Quote: APIS
                For Katyn, let those who did this and those who took the blame repent (fraction United State Duma) IN NO ONE COURT WINE OF THE USSR IS NOT PROVEN.
                - in April 1990 neither EP nor the State Duma yet DID NOT HAVE.A was the representative and leader of 16 million members of the CPSU - M.S. Gorbachev. Remember that?
                In TASS, they simply didn’t publish such things from the bulldozer - the issue was naturally discussed in advance and resolved at the appropriate level
                "On April 13, 1990, a TASS message was published, which spoke of "direct responsibility for the atrocities in the Katyn forest of Beria, Merkulov and their henchmen" and expressed "deep regret". On the same day, President of the USSR Mikhail Gorbachev gave the Polish President Wojciech Jaruzelski, who was on a visit to Moscow, the lists of Polish officers who were in the NKVD camps in 1939-1940. However, the most important Katyn documents contained in the so-called package No. 1 remained classified. "
        2. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak April 25 2018 18: 20
          +5
          RUSS
          "The hilarious hirelings of the British and French, who fought with their people. [/ Quote]
          Alex, to the joy of modern Russia do not think so!
          April 4, 2017 in Russia established the literary and artistic Prize. "Lieutenant General Baron P.N. Wrangel (Wrangel Prize)."
          Thank God there is someone to take an example from ...)))) From the memoirs of USSR Marshal B.M. Shaposhnikov .. In the same exam, another incident occurred, also with a guardsman. The lieutenant of the horse guard regiment Baron Wrangel studied with me on the course, later one of the leaders of the Russian counter-revolution in southern Russia during the civil war of 1918-1920, the so-called “black baron”. After graduating from the Mining Institute, Wrangel went to serve in the archiaristocratic cavalry regiment, participated in the Russian-Japanese war. Returning to St. Petersburg already with the rank of lieutenant of the guard, he entered the academy. The well-known cavalry guard Ignatiev in his memoirs, “Fifty Years in Service,” says that officers of the Guards Cavalry Division avoided meeting with officers of the 2nd Guards Division. In the same way, Wrangel at the academy made acquaintance only with the guards and with some of the army. I did not belong: to the number of the latter and never greeted Wrangel. Tall, thin, black, he made a repulsive impression. It was the turn of the geodesy exam for Wrangel. He went out, took a ticket, wrote on the board: “Baron Wrangel” and “8”, indicating the number of the ticket that he pulled out. Following him came the centurion of the Cossack [139] Don Regiment Gerasimov, a very modest, intelligent and tactful officer. He took out a ticket, I don’t remember what number, let’s say, number 12, and wrote: “Gerasimov No. 12”. Both began to prepare for an answer. Gerasimov pulled out a very easy ticket - a description of the menzula, but Wrangel had a difficult one, with some kind of mathematical calculations. We look, Wrangel looks into the program, then takes a sponge, rinses off his number 8 and writes number 12. Thus, the two listeners turned out to be the same number 12. We are waiting for what will happen next. It is the turn to answer Wrangel. Scharngorst looked at his notes, then at the blackboard with ticket numbers and asked Gerasimov: “How did you get ticket number 12 too?” He replies that he took it and his number should be recorded with Scharngorst. Wrangel is silent. And now, to our surprise, the strict, incorruptible old man, General Scharngorst, said: "You, Baron Wrangel, answer No. 12, and you, centurion Gerasimov, No. 8". But Gerasimov and for number 8 received 12 points. Of course, Wrangel got 12 points, but Schargorst's prestige at the academy fell.
          When the exam ended, a course gathered on the sidelines and a discussion began of Wrangel's action. Unfortunately, there was no court of the society of officers at our academy. At the address of the guards they spoke a lot of unflattering. Officer ethics didn’t let go to the authorities with a complaint, and what did the authorities do when Scharngorst himself covered Wrangel’s scam. They quarreled, quarreled, and the number of boycotting Wrangels, that is, those who did not greet him, increased. ")))))))
      2. Lieutenant Teterin
        Lieutenant Teterin April 25 2018 09: 05
        +6
        You, as often happens to you, are wrong. Baron Wrangel was flesh from the flesh of his people — it was not without reason that, after taking command, they were renamed the Russian Army. And, unlike the "comrades," he never received a dime of money from foreigners. And he did not sell his homeland, unlike the Bolsheviks, who recognized the independence of everyone and everything.
        1. rkkasa xnumx
          rkkasa xnumx April 25 2018 09: 43
          +6
          Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
          Baron Wrangel was flesh from the flesh of his people — it was not without reason that, after taking command, they were renamed the Russian Army.

          ... and for Vlasov, for example, his army was nicknamed the Russian Liberation Army. Maybe it's worth judging by deeds, not by name?
          And if Wrangel really was - "flesh from the flesh of his people", then he would not fight with his people.
          Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
          And, unlike the "comrades", he never received a penny of money from foreigners

          "the Wrangel government recognizes the state debts of Russia and the debts of the Denikin government, and also according to cover financial assistance and military supplies of grain and other raw materials exported to France both from Tavria and from the territory proposed for occupation"
          And what kind of pennies did the “comrades" have?
          Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
          And he did not sell his homeland, unlike the Bolsheviks, who recognized the independence of everyone and everything

          All in a row ... announce the entire list please.
          1. Lieutenant Teterin
            Lieutenant Teterin April 25 2018 10: 21
            +7
            Quote: rkkasa 81
            and for Vlasov, for example, his army was nicknamed the Russian Liberation Army.

            Vlasotsev would rather be nicknamed Soviet liberation army, since it was recruited from the Soviet citizens who had changed their oath. The army of Wrangel consisted of Russian people - in its composition was represented all of Russia - from peasants to princes.
            Quote: rkkasa 81
            then he would not fight with his people.

            But he did not fight with his people. He fought with international bandits and mankurts who betrayed their people for the sake of the "world revolution".
            Quote: rkkasa 81
            "the Wrangel government recognizes the state debts of Russia and the debts of the Denikin government, and also according to cover financial assistance and military supplies of grain and other raw materials exported to France both from Tavria and from the territory proposed for occupation"

            I answered you below, I repeat here. This is a fake paid by the Bolshevik agent Kamenev.
            Quote: rkkasa 81
            And what kind of pennies did the “comrades" have?

            German And not a penny, but tens of millions of brands. http://www.ruslo.cz/index.php/anonsy/item/765-nem
            etskie-dengi-bolshevikov-ili-skolko-stoit-revolyu
            tsiya
            Quote: rkkasa 81
            All in a row ... announce the entire list please.

            Willingly:
            1. December 31, 1917 - the signing of the Act of Independence of Finland.
            2. December 24, 1917 - recognition of the independence of the Baltic countries.
            3. August 29, 1918 - SNK decree on the right of Poland to self-determination.
            4. May 7, 1920 - a peace treaty with Georgia, recognizing its independence.
            And this is not a complete list, this is just what we managed to find with a quick search.
            1. rkkasa xnumx
              rkkasa xnumx April 25 2018 11: 30
              +5
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              Vlasotsev ...

              That is, you agree that it’s just stupid to judge fleshiness by name.
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              But he did not fight with his people. He fought with international bandits and mankurts who betrayed their people for the sake of the "world revolution"

              No, I certainly agree that the Russian and other peoples of our country are not perfect, but to consider that the vast majority of them are traitors, mankurts ... well, you know, this is just an outright lie and rudeness.
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              This is fake

              Do you disagree with the fact that foreign states supplied gunmen-ammunition-uniforms?
              Or do you agree that there were supplies, but you think that the Allies made them just like that, not demanding anything in return?
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              German And not a penny, but tens of millions of brands

              The almighty Bolsheviks cleaned all the German archives in such a way that they did not leave any traces of cooperation between the Bolsheviks and the Germans ...
              And if the Bolsheviks were bought, then why did they fight with the Germans, why did they annul the Brest Peace at the first opportunity?
              Byeloders, by the way, were not seen in the war with the German occupiers ... strange behavior for patriots ...
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              1. December 31, 1917 - the signing of the Act of Independence of Finland.
              2. December 24, 1917 - recognition of the independence of the Baltic countries.
              3. August 29, 1918 - SNK decree on the right of Poland to self-determination
              4. May 7, 1920 - a peace treaty with Georgia, recognizing its independence.

              And it's all ? Not much.
              Finland and Poland - in fact, they left at the time of the VP. Baltic States - then there was no way to keep it. And what, Georgia, too, lost?
              1. Lieutenant Teterin
                Lieutenant Teterin April 25 2018 13: 59
                +5
                Quote: rkkasa 81
                That is, you agree that it’s just stupid to judge fleshiness by name

                Maybe. But if you look at the composition of the Wrangel’s army - it was Russian not only in name, but in essence - I wrote about this to you above.
                Quote: rkkasa 81
                No, I certainly agree that the Russian and other peoples of our country are not perfect, but to consider that the vast majority of them are traitors, mankurts ... well, you know, this is just an outright lie and rudeness.

                This "overwhelming majority" is only in your fantasies. Data on the exact population of the Republic of Ingushetia for 1917 vary. The minimum figure is 170 million people. At the height of the GW - by the end of 1919 the spacecraft was about 3 million people. By the end of 1920 - about 5 million. Of these, according to the Soviet (!) Historian Krivosheev, about 2 million 846 thousand people deserted during the war years. https://cyberleninka.ru/article/v/prichiny-dezert
                irstva-v-krasnoy-armii-1918-1921-gg
                A good "majority" is if mass desertion of about half of the personnel is coming from the army of this "majority".
                Quote: rkkasa 81
                The almighty Bolsheviks cleaned all the German archives in such a way that they did not leave any traces of cooperation between the Bolsheviks and the Germans ...
                And if the Bolsheviks were bought, then why did they fight with the Germans, why did they annul the Brest Peace at the first opportunity?
                Byeloders, by the way, were not seen in the war with the German occupiers ... strange behavior for patriots ...

                Have you checked the German archives?
                Why did the Bolsheviks fight the Germans? Because they were not in a hurry to carry out their part of the transaction, the Kaiser ordered them to succumb ... under the soft parts of the body. They succumbed well - the Reds dragged all the way to Petrograd, after which they gave the Germans vast territories containing about half of the country's industrial potential.
                Why didn’t the whites fight the Germans? Firstly, the core of the White movement was far from the areas of German occupation. Secondly, before smashing the Germans, the whites needed to gain control over their own territory occupied by the accomplices of the Germans - the Bolsheviks. And thirdly, when the white movement began to constitute an organized force capable of fighting the Germans on equal terms, Germany had already capitulated.
                Quote: rkkasa 81
                And it's all ? Not much.
                Finland and Poland - in fact, they left at the time of the VP. Baltic States - then there was no way to keep it. And what, Georgia, too, lost?

                Half of the national suburbs are "sparse" for you? Amazing And yes, the EaP did not recognize the independence of Poland, but considered the Privislinsky Territory occupied by the Germans. And the Finns, when they tried to hint about independence in July 1917, received forced dissolution of the Finnish Senate from the EaP, and Finland was governed by the Russian governor-general.
                1. Stirbjorn
                  Stirbjorn April 25 2018 15: 09
                  +3
                  Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
                  Why didn’t the whites fight the Germans? Firstly, the core of the White movement was far from the areas of German occupation. Secondly, before smashing the Germans, the whites needed to gain control over their own territory occupied by the accomplices of the Germans - the Bolsheviks.
                  Aides ?! Really - but Krasnov said something completely different, or was he also a cocainist?
                  Yes, yes, gentlemen! The Volunteer Army is pure and infallible. But after all, it’s me, Don Ataman, who take German shells and cartridges with their dirty hands, wash them in the waves of the Quiet Don and cleanly hand them over to the Volunteer Army! - The whole shame of this business lies with me!
                  1. Lieutenant Teterin
                    Lieutenant Teterin April 25 2018 20: 23
                    +3
                    Krasnov is a Cossack separatist. And in the Volunteer Army he was not very much favored for his pro-German position and the absurd "independence".
                2. rkkasa xnumx
                  rkkasa xnumx April 25 2018 19: 19
                  +3
                  Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
                  Maybe. But if you look at the composition of the Wrangel’s army - it was Russian not only in name, but in essence - I wrote about this to you above.

                  A wonderful example of demagoguery. To the question - "Do you think that the Allies made deliveries just like that, without conditions?" - start telling gossips about the fact that the Wrangel army was Russian.
                  Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
                  This "overwhelming majority" is only in your fantasies. Data on the exact population of the Republic of Ingushetia for 1917 vary. The minimum figure is 170 million people. At the height of the GW - by the end of 1919 the spacecraft was about 3 million people. By the end of 1920 - about 5 million. Of these, according to the Soviet (!) Historian Krivosheev, about 2 million 846 thousand people deserted during the war years.

                  Even funnier. Ok, there were only 3-5 million of the 170 million people in the SC, and they fled from it. But then the question is - how much then was in the BA, and how many of it fled, since it even lost such a spacecraft? Moreover, the invaders also helped the bailers.
                  It turns out that on the side of the BA even less fought, and fled from it much faster than from the spacecraft.
                  Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
                  You checked the German archives

                  Why this stupid question? I’m sure you didn’t dig into them either.
                  And as to give in, they did not give in - the fact is that the allegedly bought reds fought with the Germans. And the whites did not fight. And the fact that the database was far from the Germans was frank nonsense.
                  Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
                  Half of the national suburbs are "sparse" for you?

                  Half the outskirts? Firstly not half. Secondly, once again - in fact, Poland and Finland left even at the time of the VP. Yeah, I had to fight there to return the Poles to the Finns, who categorically did not want to live as part of Russia. There were no other worries.
                  1. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 April 25 2018 19: 34
                    0
                    Quote: rkkasa 81
                    Yeah, it was necessary to fight there to return the Poles to the Finns, who categorically did not want to live as part of Russia

                    And you do not know that then the Bolsheviks just tried to fight?
                    1. rkkasa xnumx
                      rkkasa xnumx April 25 2018 19: 45
                      +1
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      And you do not know that then the Bolsheviks just tried to fight?

                      Tried - with whom, when, why?
                      1. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 April 25 2018 20: 23
                        +1
                        Quote: rkkasa 81
                        with whom, when, why

                        With the Poles at the end of the war, not very successful. With the Finns on the eve of WWII.
                  2. Lieutenant Teterin
                    Lieutenant Teterin April 25 2018 20: 40
                    +2
                    Quote: rkkasa 81
                    A wonderful example of demagoguery. To the question - "Do you think that the Allies made deliveries just like that, without conditions?" - start telling gossips about the fact that the Wrangel army was Russian.

                    Here you are an example of demagogy, due to the fact that I did not answer your question, and the words about the Wrangel army were an answer to your other argument.
                    But to the question:
                    Quote: rkkasa 81
                    Do you think that the allies made deliveries just like that, without conditions?
                    The answer is as follows: White was going to pay for deliveries in the same way as during the WWII. So, as all the participants of that war paid their allies.

                    Quote: rkkasa 81
                    Even funnier. Ok, there were only 3-5 million of the 170 million people in the SC, and they fled from it. But then the question is - how much then was in the BA, and how many of it fled, since it even lost such a spacecraft? Moreover, the invaders also helped the bailers.

                    The whites lost because they, unlike the reds, did not fight with their people and did not resort to unlimited violence in order to mobilize and maintain order. And yet - there were no politicians among whites, while the propaganda apparatus of the Reds worked to the fullest. And do not forget that all the military factories of Central Russia worked for the Reds, while the Whites fought - as necessary. The very “help of the allies” is a red myth, as is the “intervention of the 14 powers.” This was already written on "VO" https://topwar.ru/974-kak-soyuzniki-belym-pomogal
                    i.html
                    Quote: rkkasa 81
                    And as to give in, they did not give in - the fact is that the allegedly bought reds fought with the Germans.

                    The fact is that the “bought reds”, as you have expressed themselves, simply simply, according to the custom of all the bandits, “threw” their employers. In response, the employers decided to put them in place by force of arms. Happened. Yes, it’s so effective that the mortally frightened Bolsheviks fulfilled all the requirements of the Germans.
                    Quote: rkkasa 81
                    And the fact that the database was far from the Germans was frank nonsense.

                    Please look at the map. Estimate the distance that divided the occupied territories from the place of formation of the Volunteer Army. And remember that in July 1918 there were about 9 thousand whites. Going with such forces without equipment on the Germans is suicide. Especially in conditions when the homeland must be recaptured from German accomplices.
                    Quote: rkkasa 81
                    Half the outskirts? Firstly not half. Secondly, once again - in fact, Poland and Finland left even at the time of the VP.

                    In terms of population - about half. Poland - was occupied by the Germans and the EP considered it as part of Russia. And as for Finland - do you know how to read? In the summer of 1917, the Russian Senate dispersed the Senate there, and in September a Russian governor-general sat in Helsingfors. What do you think is called "gone" ?!
                    1. rkkasa xnumx
                      rkkasa xnumx April 26 2018 06: 52
                      +1
                      Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
                      The same "help of allies" - a red mythas well as the "intervention of the 14 powers." This was already written on "VO" https://topwar.ru/974-kak-soyuzniki-belym-pomogal
                      i.html

                      By this link, you have carved yourself.
                      To the question of whether the Allies would deliver just like that, without conditions:
                      The French government ultimatumously stated, says General Denikin, that "it is compelled to stop the dispatch of military supplies," if we "do not accept the obligation - put the appropriate amount of wheat»

                      This is about the attitude towards the German occupiers of the "corrupt" red, and the terribly "patriotic" white:
                      Colonel Drozdovsky, one of the most prominent heroes of the White Movement, in the beginning of 1918, at the very height of the Bolshevik peace talks with Germany, formed a detachment and went to General Kornilov to the Don. It was necessary to go along with the German troops, and sometimes right along the territory occupied by them: “We have strange relations with the Germans: precisely recognized allies, assistance, strict correctness, in clashes with Ukrainians - always on our side, unconditional respect ...” - writes in his diary Drozdovsky. “We pay strict correctness.”
                      It is reliably established that in the battles near the city of Nataysk, the Red Army men were jointly beaten by German troops, Don Cossacks and a battalion of the Volunteer Army.

                      But thanks to whom, the whites could fight:
                      Weapons and ammunition were also purchased from the Germans. The offer was not limited to small arms - Krasnov concluded a contract for the supply of airplanes, guns, and shells. In the first month and a half, the Germans handed over to Don, Kuban and the Volunteer Army 11 three-line rifles, 651 guns, 46 machine guns, 88 artillery shells and 109 rifle cartridges. Even heavy guns were sent to the Don army, the sending of which the Germans had previously refused. In addition, Krasnov’s arsenals were replenished with 104 machine guns, 11 airplanes, 594 thousand rifle cartridges and 721 thousand shells.


                      Wrangel testifies: “The widespread assistance promised by foreigners has already begun to take effect. Steamboats loaded with artillery and engineering property, uniforms and medicines continuously arrived in Novorossiysk. A large number of airplanes and tanks were expected to arrive in the near future. ”
                      “Since the beginning of 1919, we received 558 guns, 12 tanks, 1 shells and 685 million rifle cartridges from the British,” writes Denikin.
            2. BAI
              BAI April 25 2018 12: 46
              +4
              German And not a penny, but tens of millions of brands. http://www.ruslo.cz/index.php/anonsy/item/765-nem
              etskie-dengi-bolshevikov-ili-skolko-stoit-revolyu
              tsiya

              Oh, this should be especially noted:
              “Those people who were patriots of their country, they just tried not to harm her. But some of them, in order to fight the Bolsheviks, were ready to serve even Hitler, at least anyone. And there were many of them,” he said Igor Pykhalov.

              Naturally, according to him, they will deny this, but at one time the ancestors, including those who are conducting such memorial services, tarnished themselves by collaborating with Hitler. In addition, the historian draws attention to the fact that cooperation between whites and Germany began precisely in the Civil War: “Representatives of whites love to claim that Lenin was a German spy, that he received German money and all that. But if we look at the events of 1917-18, we can find that the Bolsheviks, who are now almost declared German spies, fought against the Germans, in Ukraine, Belarus, and not a single case that white detachments clashed with the Germans or with the Austrians we do not know. Whereas, on the contrary, very many whites received weapons and money from the Germans. The same chieftain Krasnov, who was hanged by the Soviet court after the Great Patriotic War for serving Hitler, the same general Drozdovsky, who came to Rostov-on-Don with the Germans and there, in fact, his troops were the forerunner of the policemen and Vlasovites, the same Russian North-West Army, so it was not the first time for whites to serve the German masters, as, in general, any foreign force that agreed to return their privileges. A part of the emigrants in the Russian Corps served as punishers in Yugoslavia, repaying the black ingratitude to the country that sheltered them. "
        2. BAI
          BAI April 25 2018 10: 05
          +6
          Baron Wrangel was flesh from the flesh of his people — it was not without reason that, after taking command, they were renamed the Russian Army. And, unlike the "comrades," he never received a dime of money from foreigners. And he didn’t trade his homeland, unlike the Bolsheviks, who recognized the independence of everyone and everything.

          Just do not need a scoundrel and a villain to equate with the Russian people.
          1.
          Marshal of the Soviet Union B.M. wrote about this in his memoirs. Shaposhnikov, who studied at this prestigious educational institution in Russia with Baron Wrangel. As for the marriage of the baron, it is easy to guess: the maid of honor and the daughter of a chamberlain for the guard officer are not only a successful union, but also a successful career.

          About how Baron Wrangel studied at the Academy, years later, the same Boris Mikhailovich Shaposhnikov will write, the honesty of which there is no doubt:

          “The lieutenant of the Life Guards of the cavalry regiment, Baron Wrangel, later became one of the leaders of the Russian counter-revolution in southern Russia during the civil war of 1918-1920, the so-called“ black baron ”studied with me. After graduating from the Mining Institute, Wrangel went to serve in the archiaristocratic cavalry regiment, participated in the Russo-Japanese War. Returning to Petersburg already with the rank of lieutenant of the guard, he entered the General Staff Academy. The well-known cavalry guard Ignatiev in his memoirs “Fifty Years in Service” says that officers of the 1st Guards Cavalry Division avoided meeting with officers of the 2nd Guards Cavalry Division. In the same way, Wrangel at the academy made acquaintance only with the guardsmen and some of the army men. I was not one of the latter and never greeted Wrangel. Tall, thin, black, he made a repulsive impression. It was with him that an unpleasant incident occurred on the geodesy exam. Wrangel went to the table, took a ticket, wrote on the board: “Baron Wrangel, No. 8”, indicating the number of the ticket that he pulled out. Following him came the centurion of the Cossack Don Regiment Gerasimov, a very intelligent, modest and tactful officer. He took out a ticket, I don’t remember what number, well, let’s say, number 12, and wrote: “Gerasimov, number 12”. Both began to prepare for an answer. Gerasimov pulled out a very easy ticket - a description of the menzula, and Wrangel was difficult, with some kind of mathematical calculations. We look, Wrangel looks at the program all the time, then takes a sponge, erases his number 8 and writes number 12. Thus, the two listeners had the same ticket. We are waiting for what will happen next. It is the turn to answer Wrangel. Scharngorst looked at his notes, then at the blackboard with ticket numbers and asked Gerasimov: “How did you get ticket number 12 too?” He replies that he took it and this number should be recorded from Scharngorst. Wrangel is silent. And now, to our surprise, the stern, incorruptible old man, General Scharinghorst, says: "You, Baron Wrangel, answer number 12, and you, centurion Gerasimov, number 8." Gerasimov and for number 8 received 12 points. Of course, Wrangel got 12 points, but the prestige of Scharngorst and the academy fell.

          When the exam ended, the whole course gathered on the sidelines and a discussion began on Wrangel's act. Unfortunately, there was no court of the society of officers at our academy. At the address of the guardsmen much unflattering was expressed. Officer ethics did not allow a complaint to go to the authorities, and what did the authorities do when Scharngorst himself covered Wrangel scam. They had a fight, had a fight, and parted. But the number of boycotting Wrangels, that is, not greeting him, has increased. ”

          2. In the Crimea, which Slashchev “presented” to him, Wrangel, when elected to the post of Commander-in-Chief
          confers on Slashchev the rank of lieutenant general with his own sentence for a narrow circle: "Popular, cattle, among the soldiers!"

          3. And because of what Slashchev and Wrangel finally parted:
          In 1921, the text of the secret agreement of Baron Wrangel with the Entente states accidentally comes to the disgraced general. It turns out that the commander in chief of the armed forces of the South of Russia he promised so much to Paris and London that from “a great and indivisible Russia”, in the event of the victory of the whites, only memories would remain.

          The Bolsheviks at least returned everything, and Wrangel would have sold everything irretrievably.
          Moreover, the vast majority of historians recognize the complete dependence of Wrangel on the Entente.
          Slashchev:
          "My friction with Wrangel continued, it came to a reproach on my part, that it seems that we are starting to dance to the tune of the French, and we raised a rebellion against the Soviet power, as against the power posed by the Germans. Why are the Germans worse than the French? True, earlier ranks the army said that the struggle was continuing, I had to say it, but still there were negotiations with the British, and Wrangel was going to lead them himself with the Bolsheviks. the unprincipled struggle continues under the command of people who do not deserve any trust, and, most importantly, under the dictation of foreigners, i.e. the French, who now instead of the Germans want to take possession of the "fatherland". Who are we then? I didn’t want to answer this question even to myself. "

          Well, when everyone choked on evacuating from the Crimea Wrangel -
          "The evacuation took place in a nightmarish atmosphere of confusion and panic. Wrangel first set an example for this, moved from his house to the Kista hotel near Grafskaya Marina to be able to quickly board the ship, which he did soon, starting to cruise to ports under the guise of evacuation verification. "Of course, he couldn’t do any verification from the ship, but he was completely safe, and this was what he was striving for."

          (hereinafter quotes from the book of Y. A. Slashchev "Crimea, 1920"
          1. Lieutenant Teterin
            Lieutenant Teterin April 25 2018 10: 38
            +6
            Quote: BAI
            Just do not need a scoundrel and a villain to equate with the Russian people

            Do you even understand that these words now offended the memory of the Russian Hero - a man who risked his life and shed blood, protecting Russia from German aggression?
            Quote: BAI
            We look, Wrangel constantly looks into the program, then takes a sponge, erases his number 8 and writes number 12. Thus, two listeners had the same ticket. We are waiting for what will happen next. It is the turn to answer Wrangel.

            Firstly, these are the memories of Shaposhnikov, a man who changed his oath and entered the service of the Bolsheviks. This alone makes us suspicious of his words - a person could write anything, fulfilling the order of the red gentlemen.
            Secondly, you’re an adult, turn on the logic - how could a teacher not notice a Cadet STANDING UP (!) And a Cadet approaching the board (!)? Was he deafblind? Why was Scharngorst risking his honor by covering an ordinary cadet?
            Obviously, we are faced with an unconditionally fictional scene, the task of which is to show "what kind of Wrangel this was not good."
            Quote: BAI
            In 1921, the text of the secret agreement of Baron Wrangel with the Entente states accidentally comes to the disgraced general. It turns out that the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the South of Russia promised so much to Paris and London that from the "great and indivisible Russia", in the event of the victory of the whites, only memories would remain.

            Once again I write - this is a "secret agreement", a fake sponsored by the Bolsheviks in a newspaper loyal to them.
            Well, the links to Slashchev are absolutely amazing. Yakov Alexandrovich, of course, a valiant and skillful officer, but, alas, was a cocainist, and as a result, betrayed his associates, having crossed over to the Bolsheviks. For which, in the end, he paid with his life. And his words about the panic in Crimea are not confirmed by anyone, on the contrary, all the evacuation participants write about the good organization of the retreat. https://mikhael-mark.livejournal.com/381825.html
            1. BAI
              BAI April 25 2018 11: 01
              +8
              insulted the memory of the Russian Hero-

              Where do you see the hero here? I personally do not consider him a hero. For me - Slashchev is orders of magnitude better.
              Once again I write - this is a "secret agreement", a fake sponsored by the Bolsheviks in a newspaper loyal to them.

              In addition to the hypothesis from a live journal, is there more evidence?

              all evacuation participants write about the good organization of the retreat.

              Is that all?

              Refugees who found shelter on an armadillo stood on the deck and looked at the receding Sevastopol. Everyone had concentrated, serious faces, and many had moisture in their eyes ...

              Two or three boats with late fugitives flashed across the bay.

              Approaching either the departing steamboat or the other, they helplessly begged to take them with them. But the evacuation was over, and crowded steamboats indifferently passed by. Our battleship picked up several of these unfortunate people, who after all there was no return ...

              A gloomy crowd looked at us from the shore. Some envied us, others gloated.


              First edition: V. Obolensky. Crimea at Wrangel // On the alien side. Berlin - Prague, 1925. Book. 9.
              - note - an expat edition.
              1. Lieutenant Teterin
                Lieutenant Teterin April 25 2018 14: 11
                +4
                Quote: BAI
                Where do you see the hero here? I personally do not consider him a hero. For me - Slashchev is orders of magnitude better

                A man devoted his whole life to a military career. Served honestly, fought. He was loyal to his homeland and people and stood up for their defense when the power in the country was seized by fanatic terrorists. And until the end of his life he was faithful to his convictions and did not run over to the side of the enemy. Unlike. Although ... each person has his own heroes, someone probably also Judas is a hero.
                Quote: BAI
                In addition to the hypothesis from a live journal, is there more evidence?

                There is. The complete absence of the original article. There is still a link to Churchill's English-language biography:
                In August 1920 Lev Kamenev, a Bolshevik diplomat visiting London on official business, sent a telegram addressed to Lenin in Moscow which was intercepted and deciphered by British intelligence. The telegram stated that Kamenev had paid £ 40,000.00 to the Daily Herald, and a further payment of £ 10,000.00 would be made shortly.
                My translation (in case you or other readers do not know the language): "In August 1920, Lev Kamenev, a Bolshevik diplomat while visiting London on official affairs, sent a telegram addressed to Lenin in Moscow, which was intercepted and decrypted by British intelligence. The telegram stated that Kamenev paid 40000 pounds of the Daily Herald and the next payment of 10000 pounds will be made soon. "
                That is, this is not just a theory in LJ. Fact is a fact - Kamenev pays a British newspaper, and then an article is published in it that casts a shadow on Wrangel. There are no such coincidences.
                Quote: BAI
                First edition: V. Obolensky. Crimea at Wrangel // On the alien side. Berlin - Prague, 1925. Book. 9.

                I read the quote. It refers to people who are late. But there is not a word about the chaos and disorder during loading.
                1. BAI
                  BAI April 25 2018 15: 10
                  +4
                  n August 1920 Lev Kamenev, a Bolshevik diplomat visiting London on official business, sent a telegram addressed to Lenin in Moscow which was intercepted and deciphered by British intelligence. The telegram stated that Kamenev had paid £ 40,000.00 to the Daily Herald, and a further payment of £ 10,000.00 would be made shortly.

                  This text is given in the "source" - LJ. And how is it more conclusive than the text of the Wrangel treaty with France?
                  And "Russian-French Society for the use of Russia and the Crimea" where did it come from and under what agreements? Probably not from scratch it arose.
                  They still didn’t leave Crimea, but they planned to use all of Russia.

                  And until the end of his life he was faithful to his convictions and did not run over to the side of the enemy. Unlike. Although ... each person has his own heroes, someone probably also Judas is a hero.

                  Those. developing your thought - Karbyshev and Shaposhnikov - Judah? Or go into denial with the words of Shpakovsky "I did not say that"?
                  1. Gopnik
                    Gopnik April 25 2018 15: 43
                    +2
                    Quote: BAI
                    And how is it more conclusive than the text of the Wrangel treaty with France?


                    There is no evidence of the existence of this “treaty”. Absolutely. Over the past 100 years, nothing has appeared. There is not a copy of this agreement in the archives, nor is there any mention of it from those who "signed" it. There is only a newspaper publication in the leftist newspaper, and an “Appeal to Wrangel Army Officers” of the type signed by Brusilov (which he did not sign) in which this publication is referenced. Those. it's a dumb fake
                    1. BAI
                      BAI April 25 2018 16: 44
                      +3
                      There is also recognition of Wrangel’s associate journalist G. Rakovsky:

                      Already after the Crimean catastrophe, reports appeared in the foreign press pointing to the enormous role played by the so-called “Russian-French Society for the Use of Russia and Crimea” in Wrangel’s recognition.

                      After the recognition of Wrangel, newspapers also published a draft financial agreement between France and the South Russian government. Under this project, the entire south of Russia, with all its industrial enterprises, railways, customs, etc., entered the direct direct bondage of France for many years. Under this project, all of South Russia literally turned into a French colony, overrun by French engineers, officials, and even skilled workers.

                      And not a word that this is a fake, the document does not cause any doubts.
                      1. Gopnik
                        Gopnik April 25 2018 16: 53
                        +1
                        Recognition of what ???
                        That's exactly what "published in newspapers"
                  2. Lieutenant Teterin
                    Lieutenant Teterin April 25 2018 20: 47
                    +2
                    Quote: BAI
                    This text is given in the "source" - LJ. And how is it more conclusive than the text of the Wrangel treaty with France?

                    You're wrong. LJ is a copy. The source is an English-language article about a newspaper. This article has a link to Churchill's biography, where this fact is mentioned.
                    Quote: BAI
                    Russian-French Society for the use of Russia and the Crimea "where did it come from and under what agreements?

                    The most interesting thing is that this "Society" walks only through the pages of pro-Bolshevik articles, and there is no information about it anywhere else. That's serious. Neither in his memoirs nor in his scientific research is there a word about him.
                    Quote: BAI
                    Those. developing your thought - Karbyshev and Shaposhnikov - Judah? Or go into denial with the words of Shpakovsky "I did not say that"?

                    And you are a funny person - put your thoughts into the mouth of an opponent. In the commentary, I had in mind the real, evangelical Judas, and not the allegorical image. But since you say that the people you named can be called such a household name, then I can’t prevent you from doing this.
                2. BAI
                  BAI April 25 2018 17: 23
                  +3
                  But there is not a word about the chaos and disorder during loading.

                  Well, how to read. The prince is not happy - then the journalist G. Rakovsky:
                  The officers at the front were demoralized both because of their own hardships and because of the distress of their relatives in the rear: the prices of basic necessities were fabulously high, and these people lived in complete poverty. The soldiers are tired of the war; in addition, among them were many forcibly mobilized peasants and captured Red Army soldiers, who were also included in the White Army. The agony of Crimea began: its scale even exceeded what happened in the tragic days of the defeat of Denikin. An evacuation order was hastily issued, and long lines of civilians trying to escape again lined up on the piers. But even if they managed to get on a ship, in many cases civilians were again driven ashore to make way for military units that had just arrived from the front and demanded that they be evacuated earlier than non-combatants.

                  The evacuation was no better prepared than previous similar operations in the South Russia - the same general despair, the same suicides, murders, attempts to break into ships, unrest and repression. The behavior of the Allies was as strange as in previous cases: French ships took on board wealthy speculators, not officers and their families; the British and Italians did even worse — their ships, leaving Constantinople to take part in the evacuation, were recalled by London and Rome before they even reached Crimea. The only country that showed any worthiness at this terrible moment was America, which until then did not want to interfere in Russian affairs, regardless of whether the white won or suffered defeat. American ships took out as many refugees from Crimea as they could accommodate.
            2. BAI
              BAI April 25 2018 11: 07
              +7
              , these are the memories of Shaposhnikov - a man who changed his oath and entered the service of the Bolsheviks. This alone makes us suspicious of his words -

              You really insulted the hero.
              The above has already been written, but I repeat again
              write the same Boris Mikhailovich Shaposhnikov, whose honesty there is no doubt
              !!!
              1. Lieutenant Teterin
                Lieutenant Teterin April 25 2018 14: 16
                +4
                Quote: BAI
                So you really insulted the hero

                Recognizing the fact of a person’s work on the enemies of Russia is an insult. Boris Mikhailovich Shaposhnikov was a brilliant staffer. And his role in the Second World War is great. But the fact that he instead of helping his Fatherland and people preferred to serve the Bolsheviks does not disappear from this. Alas, this spot on his biography is.
                Quote: BAI
                all the same Boris Mikhailovich Shaposhnikov writes, which honesty there is no doubt

                This phrase is from a book about Yakov Slashchev and reflects the position of the author. And then, keep in mind that in the USSR even the most honest person was eventually forced to say what the party and "Comrade Secretary General" ordered. Remember: today Yezhov is a hero and a fighter against enemies, and tomorrow he is already an enemy of the people and an English spy. Trotsky was a hero of the Civil War and a faithful Leninist yesterday, and today is an insidious fascist.
                And I'm not talking about how books and memoirs were corrected. I would not even be surprised if the fantastic story with the temporarily “blind and deaf” teacher actually belongs to the party censor.
                1. BAI
                  BAI April 25 2018 15: 17
                  +3
                  But the fact that he instead of helping his Fatherland and people preferred to serve the Bolsheviks does not disappear from this. Alas, this spot on his biography is.

                  None of the white emigre generals fought against Hitler. And for them to give them orders to sing and hosanna?
                  Instead of helping his Fatherland and people, he chose to serve the Bolsheviks and does not disappear from this. This spot

                  Why is this spot? The Bolsheviks defended the Fatherland and the people, not the White Guards. It was the White Guards who dishonored the honor of the Russian uniform by turning their weapons against the people of Russia. In the Civil War, those for whom the majority of the population win. And the Bolsheviks won. And do not humiliate the peoples of Russia "that the Bolsheviks deceived them vilely." People are not fools. They knew what was happening, and on whose side the truth was. Therefore, the Bolsheviks won.
                  1. Lieutenant Teterin
                    Lieutenant Teterin April 25 2018 21: 16
                    +2
                    Quote: BAI
                    None of the white emigre generals fought against Hitler. And for them to give them orders to sing and hosanna?

                    I wonder how the elderly by then generals should have fought against Hitler? With a rifle on the French fields and groves partisan?
                    Quote: BAI
                    Why is this spot? The Bolsheviks defended the Fatherland and the people, not the White Guards.

                    Did the Bolsheviks defend the people? Are you sure you haven’t sealed up? It means rampant crime (when criminals were declared to be a “socially close element”), total lawlessness, when the law was violated to please party leaders and wild terror, when people, according to the Chekist Latsis, were killed for their “wrong” origin or occupation:
                    We exterminate unnecessary classes of people. Do not look at the investigation for materials and evidence that the accused acted in word or deed against the Soviets. The first question is what class it belongs to, what kind of origin, upbringing, education or profession it is. These questions should determine the fate of the accused. This is the meaning and essence of red terror "
                    --this all "defended the people"? Good "defenders", you will not say anything.
                    And yes, the White movement arose only after gangster seizure of power and dispersal of the Constituent Assembly. The latter, incidentally, shows well the attitude of the Bolsheviks towards the people - popular opinion meant nothing to them.
                    Quote: BAI
                    In the Civil War, those for whom the majority of the population win.

                    You made a mistake again. The most brutal and unprincipled, ready for any crime for his power, wins in the Civil War. The Bolsheviks were such people. Not “the people followed them,” but they drove people away by hunger and fear of death. The proof of this is the numerous uprisings against the "people's power": the Tambov, Shenkur, uprisings of May-August 1919, the Chapan war and many others. What is significant, during these uprisings, the people (the real people, not the fictional "popular masses") dealt with amazing brutality with representatives of the "people's power". And the slogans of the rebels were - emphasized anti-Bolshevik.
            3. Olgovich
              Olgovich April 25 2018 12: 26
              +4
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              Firstly, these are the memories of Shaposhnikov, a man who changed his oath and entered the service of the Bolsheviks. This alone makes us suspicious of his words - a person could write whatever he practiced order of the red gentlemen.

              Yes, it’s not the “damned” tsarist regime, you won’t forget about it: what you will order and write! Bet-life, stew.
              And still, few people saved it — almost everyone “finished”.
              However, rightly so!
              Once again I write - this is a "secret agreement", a fake sponsored by the Bolsheviks in a newspaper loyal to them.

              They are still looking for it in the archival repositories of France, but besides a newspaper (even for a bad toilet), they can’t find it anywhere! lol laughing
            4. BAI
              BAI April 25 2018 13: 32
              +3
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              Secondly, you’re an adult, turn on the logic - how could a teacher not notice a Cadet STANDING UP (!) And a Cadet approaching the board (!)? Was he deafblind? Why was Scharngorst risking his honor by covering an ordinary cadet?

              Sorry, I missed this moment. Of course deaf-blind. Because
              As for the marriage of the baron, it is easy to guess: the maid of honor and the daughter of a chamberlain for the guard officer are not only a successful union, but also a successful career.
              1. Lieutenant Teterin
                Lieutenant Teterin April 25 2018 14: 18
                +4
                Quote: BAI
                Sorry, I missed this moment. Of course deaf-blind. Because
                As for the marriage of the baron, it is easy to guess: the maid of honor and the daughter of a chamberlain for the guard officer are not only a successful union, but also a successful career.

                Your will, but only such officers, married to relatives of chamberlains or maids of honor in the Guard, were many. And because of one thing, the teacher would not risk his honor - here you need to understand the psychology of people of that era, for them honor was sometimes more expensive than life. The teacher would rather spoil the relationship with the chamberlain's daughter than disgrace herself like that.
          2. Korsar4
            Korsar4 April 25 2018 13: 59
            0
            Thank. Interesting quotes. And the first thing that comes to mind when characterizing the baron is Wrangel and Slashchev.
        3. Alexander Greene
          Alexander Greene April 25 2018 18: 04
          +4
          Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
          And, unlike the "comrades," he never received a dime of money from foreigners.

          And where did the tanks and planes come from?
      3. Olgovich
        Olgovich April 25 2018 09: 46
        +4
        Quote: rkkasa 81
        The hilarious hirelings of the British and French, who fought with their people.

        The patriot of Russia, who fought with usurpers of the people's power of the US, who sold the occupants THREE countries to return power to the Russian people
        1. APIS
          APIS April 25 2018 11: 14
          +6
          Quote: Olgovich
          https://remi-meisner.livejournal.com/161058.html

          The Bolsheviks simply dispersed the CSS as unnecessary (lack of a quorum), they no longer needed confirmation of SNK powers from them - this was done by the 2nd and 3rd Congress of Soviets.
          Komuch collected in remnants of CSS on Czechoslovak bayonets in Samara, after the onslaught of Reds, they sailed to Omsk and declared themselves Directory, Kolchak simply splashed the remnants of CSS and declared himself “ruler”, relying on the help of the Entente and the Japanese.
          Question: What power is logical to consider legitimate?
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich April 25 2018 12: 19
            +4
            Quote: APIS
            US Bolsheviks simply dispersed as unnecessary (lack of quorum)

            belay
            Who gave them the right to a bunch of herds to consider what is needed and what is not? They did not represent the people; the people did NOT choose them.
            1. About the so-called “quorum”: strange, the bald foreign tourist in the decree on dispersal of the Constitutional Court did not name this reason! He wrote, twisting. all nonsense, but about the "Corum" (iron argument, as it were) - NOT a word! Worse than you, was? request No, I just remembered my own decree about DISCOVERIES work of CSS in the presence of 400 deputies. It was 410. The meeting was open, work began. Then 199 MPs could leave, the quorum for decision-making was. Like in the Duma today and everywhere.
            2. Who is a foreign tourist to indicate what quorum should generally be? fool This was not in the documents on elections in the Constitutional Council and the beginning of its work.
            3. The criminals banned the cadet party and attacked people's deputies, some were killed. Did this affect the quorum?
            Quote: APIS
            they no longer needed confirmation of SNK powers from them - this was done by the 2nd and 3rd Congress of Soviets.

            What is a snk beast? belay The US elected the executive branch.
            the so-called 2 Congress of Soviets recognized as legal All-Russian Central Executive Committee illegal and called simply " assembly of the Bolsheviks", because the Bolsheviks called there only ... their supporters (such cunningly made). In Kiev, three months later, with the same" focus "at the congress of councils of Ukraine, they gave them a neck scam and were left in the vast majority .
            Quote: APIS
            Komuch collected in remnants of CSS on Czechoslovak bayonets in Samara, after the onslaught of Reds, they sailed to Omsk and declared themselves Directory, Kolchak simply splashed the remnants of CSS and declared himself “ruler”, relying on the help of the Entente and the Japanese.

            They slapped someone with a bag, Kolchak didn’t spank anyone
            . Kolchak elected Ruler The Council of Ministers of Russia.
            1. APIS
              APIS April 25 2018 13: 12
              +5
              bald foreign tourist

              Rudeness confirms only the absence of arguments.
              1. About the so-called “quorum”: strange, the bald foreign tourist in the decree on dispersal of the Constitutional Court did not name this reason! He wrote, twisting. all nonsense, but about the "Corum" (iron argument, as it were) - NOT a word! Worse than you, was?

              No, definitely smarter. He did not make excuses and did not get out, neighing and forgot ...
              CSS in the presence of 400 deputies. It was 410. The meeting was open, work began. Then 199 MPs could leave, the quorum for decision-making was. Like in the Duma today and everywhere.

              Voting cards, as in the Duma, no one left, they were invented later. The remaining number and composition of the deputies turned any vote into a farce. So, gatherings with sandwiches by candlelight. Sandwiches ran out - everyone dispersed.
              Who is a foreign tourist to indicate what quorum should generally be? fool This was not in the documents on elections in the Constitutional Council and the beginning of its work

              This Resolution of the Council of People's Commissars - the only executive body of power at that time, elected democratically. (Local Councils - Congress of delegates from local Councils - All-Russian Central Executive Committee - SNK).
              The criminals banned the party of cadets and attacked people's deputies, some were killed. Did this affect the quorum?

              Criminals are determined by the court, a commentator with a female patronymic does not count.
              The cadets received 17 seats, i.e. with 712 mandates they didn’t do the weather. The former airspace ministers were arrested, the sailors of two of them were shot after the dispersal of the presidency - on January 7th.
              What is a snk beast? belay CSS elected executive power. The 2nd Congress of Soviets was recognized as illegal by the All-Russian Central Executive Committee and was simply called the "Bolshevik assembly", because the Bolsheviks called there only ... their supporters (such cunning ones). In Kiev, three months later, with the same "focus" at the congress of councils of Ukraine, they gave them a neck scam and they remained in the overwhelming minority.

              Everything is natural - in the local Soviets the majority were Bolsheviks and Social Revolutionaries.
              By the way, in the elections to the UE, the 50% turnout barrier was not overcome, so with a clear conscience we can consider it not legitimate (the current Duma should not be cited as an example tongue )
              They slapped someone on the head with a bag, Kolchak the same woman. Kolchak was elected Ruler by the Council of Ministers of Russia.

              Here the case is hopeless - you want Google to help you, you want to ask a textbook from your grandchildren.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich April 25 2018 15: 41
                +3
                Quote: APIS
                Rudeness confirms only the absence of arguments.

                And who is lousy with us? lol
                Quote: APIS
                No, definitely smarter. He did not make excuses and did not get out, neighing and forgot ..

                Even as he justified himself, but not a word about the “quorum”! For the first time they started talking about him .... after the disappearance of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, you and you like the funny forever yesterdayyes
                Quote: APIS
                The remaining number and composition of deputies turned into headlightswith any vote.

                Well, to whom is your chatter interesting? We are talking about FACTS.
                Quote: APIS
                Criminals are determined by the court, a commentator with a female patronymic does not count.

                The court was destroyed by criminals in order to avoid punishment .. Olgovich is not a woman's middle name, i.e. ignoramus.
                Quote: APIS
                The cadets received 17 seats, i.e. with 712 mandates they didn’t do the weather.

                It's not your business to talk about the weather: these were deputieselected by the whole people
                Quote: APIS
                The former airspace ministers were arrested, the sailors of two of them were shot after the dispersal of the presidency - on January 7th.

                The cadets and Socialist-Revolutionary deputies who possessed immunity were arrested. The fate of some remained unknown.
                Quote: APIS
                By the way, in the elections to the UE, the 50% turnout barrier was not overcome, so with a clear conscience considerbe her not legit

                Because you think so? Who are you, "reader?
                Quote: APIS
                Here the case is hopeless - you want Google to help you, you want to ask a textbook from your grandchildren.

                The textbook will not help you, as well as Google. Knowledge to you, apparently, pain deliver ... Unbearable ...request
                1. APIS
                  APIS April 25 2018 17: 18
                  +3
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Quote: APIS
                  Rudeness confirms only the absence of arguments.

                  And who is lousy with us? lol
                  Quote: APIS
                  No, definitely smarter. He did not make excuses and did not get out, neighing and forgot ..

                  Even as he justified himself, but not a word about the “quorum”! For the first time they started talking about him .... after the disappearance of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, you and you like the funny forever yesterdayyes
                  Quote: APIS
                  The remaining number and composition of deputies turned into headlightswith any vote.

                  Well, to whom is your chatter interesting? We are talking about FACTS.
                  Quote: APIS
                  Criminals are determined by the court, a commentator with a female patronymic does not count.

                  The court was destroyed by criminals in order to avoid punishment .. Olgovich is not a woman's middle name, i.e. ignoramus.
                  Quote: APIS
                  The cadets received 17 seats, i.e. with 712 mandates they didn’t do the weather.

                  It's not your business to talk about the weather: these were deputieselected by the whole people
                  Quote: APIS
                  The former airspace ministers were arrested, the sailors of two of them were shot after the dispersal of the presidency - on January 7th.

                  The cadets and Socialist-Revolutionary deputies who possessed immunity were arrested. The fate of some remained unknown.
                  Quote: APIS
                  By the way, in the elections to the UE, the 50% turnout barrier was not overcome, so with a clear conscience considerbe her not legit

                  Because you think so? Who are you, "reader?
                  Quote: APIS
                  Here the case is hopeless - you want Google to help you, you want to ask a textbook from your grandchildren.

                  The textbook will not help you, as well as Google. Knowledge to you, apparently, pain deliver ... Unbearable ...request

                  What facts are you broadcasting about? Where exactly did Lenin make excuses for breaking up the CSS? Apart from your lamentations and idle talk, nothing is visible negative
                  For some reason, every forum chatterbox tries on the role of a judge, or even a prophet. And all the time, "we are the people," "we are the majority."
                  And who are you to deny my personal opinion? By the way, I exaggerated the number of cadets, it was even more insignificant - 15 people.
                  The fate of those arrested is well known - they were issued on receipt (except for two sailors who fell under the hot hand) and right away they got off to organize a civil war from St. Petersburg, some were slapped in Omsk (this is a fact!), And they didn’t give a damn about the missing, they broke the word.
                  There are dozens of sources of election results in the Constitutional Council, pretending to be three monkeys “I don’t see, I don’t hear, I won’t tell anyone” is just ridiculous.

                  Hit, I see, the troll.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich April 26 2018 08: 06
                    +2
                    Quote: APIS
                    What facts are you broadcasting about? Where exactly is Lenin made excuses for overclocking CSS? Apart from your lamentations and idle talk, nothing is visible

                    Decree on the dissolution of the US-unknown? Chatter is empty-: Your "think" farce "-Who are interesting?
                    Quote: APIS
                    For some reason, a forum chatterbox tries on the role of a judge, or even a prophet. And all the time "we are the people", "we are the majority

                    I agree: the Green, the box office, (you) and the other Bolsheviks, only on behalf of the people speak. I speak in my name and only facts
                    Quote: APIS
                    And who are you to refuse me in my personal opinion? By the way, I exaggerated the number of cadets, it was even more insignificant - 15 people

                    I do not refuse at all, where do I have it? I prove his inferiority. On the facts.
                    Quote: APIS
                    The fate of those arrested is known - issued on receipt (except for two sailors who fell under the hot hand) and.

                    Unknown until now.
                    Quote: APIS
                    right away they drew from St. Petersburg to organize a civil war,

                    Civil began in October-November 1917, teach the so-called "decrees" of the so-called owls of power.
                    Quote: APIS
                    There are dozens of sources of election results in the pretend to be three monkeys "I do not see - I do not hear - I will not tell anyone" - just ridiculous

                    It’s funny, yes, and even more so it’s not clear why you are pretending to be pretending and what you are actually talking about? Clearly articulate when you can?
                    Quote: APIS
                    Opal, I see, on the troll.

                    Instead of discussion, there’s empty talk on your part, trolling in one word is boring and dull, nothing new.
                    PS Who is cheated? request lol
              2. Alexander Greene
                Alexander Greene April 25 2018 17: 48
                +5
                Quote: APIS
                bald foreign tourist
                Rudeness confirms only the absence of arguments.

                Dear comrade, this is not rudeness in Olgovich, it’s such a mental illness. Read his comments in previous discussions, he has visions: either "dead with braids", then "green men", now now "bald foreign tourists" constantly seem to him.
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich April 26 2018 08: 19
                  +3
                  Quote: Alexander Green
                  it’s such a mental illness.

                  I recall, Comrade Green, a well-known fact: the real insane sincerely consider insane healthy people and all the time declare this, time after time.
                  Based on this, pay close attention to QUANTITY (in almost every article) Your statements about the pain of others.
                  I say it with sincere anxiety for you belay lol
                  1. Alexander Greene
                    Alexander Greene April 26 2018 16: 34
                    +1
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    I say this with sincere anxiety for you

                    I don’t believe you, I seriously sympathize with you, and you are building faces for me.
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich April 27 2018 09: 04
                      +2
                      Quote: Alexander Green
                      I don’t believe you, I seriously sympathize with you, and you are building faces for me.

                      So it’s better for you! yes
                      You counted already- How many times Did you report other people's soreness?
                      And this is almost every SECOND your comment.
                      Is this not a reason to think? No, not to you, but to your relatives .. hi
                      1. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene April 27 2018 09: 56
                        +1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        So it’s better for you!

                        I have a neighbor girl - 5 years old. she makes faces to her cat, convinced that he understands her.
          2. Lieutenant Teterin
            Lieutenant Teterin April 25 2018 14: 20
            +4
            Quote: APIS
            US Bolsheviks simply dispersed as unnecessary (lack of quorum),

            Ingenious! Spit on the will of ALL the people and disperse their representatives because of the quorum! Do you even understand that this act was a crime against Russia and its people. The people (for which the Bolsheviks so advocated) simply shut their mouths and indicated "in place", as in the slave tyranny of antiquity.
            1. APIS
              APIS April 25 2018 15: 43
              +3
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              Quote: APIS
              US Bolsheviks simply dispersed as unnecessary (lack of quorum),

              Ingenious! Spit on the will of ALL the people and disperse their representatives because of the quorum! Do you even understand that this act was a crime against Russia and its people. The people (for which the Bolsheviks so advocated) simply shut their mouths and indicated "in place", as in the slave tyranny of antiquity.


              WHO TOLD ALL? Less than 50% of voters participated in the elections. The right and left SRs were not allowed to separate the lists, which led to a distortion of the results, because the peasants voted for the left, and the votes cast for the right.
              But the Congresses of Soviets gathered delegates from elected bodies (1000 people - one delegate) of self-government and represented all walks of life: workers (2 and 3 congresses), soldiers (2 and 3 congresses), peasants (at 3 congresses) and Cossacks (at 3 Congress).
              EP with such a system and now would not shine negative
            2. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene April 25 2018 17: 51
              +4
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              great! Do not give a damn about the will of ALL the people and disperse their representatives because of the quorum!

              Why drive this blizzard? You know very well why they were dispersed because they rejected decrees on the world and on the earth.
        2. Alexander Greene
          Alexander Greene April 25 2018 18: 10
          +5
          Quote: Olgovich
          The patriot of Russia, who fought with usurpers of the people's power of the US, who sold the occupants THREE countries to return power to the Russian people

          What kind of people? The bourgeoisie and the landowners ?. Wrangel fought for his baronial and general privileges, for his freedom to parasitize the working people.
          His Teutonic ancestors raided on Lake Peipsi from Alexander Nevsky, to the Battle of Grunwald from the combined Slavic army, near Poltava from Peter the Great, and in Crimea he received Wrangel himself from Frunze.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich April 26 2018 11: 18
            +2
            Quote: Alexander Green
            What kind of people?

            Russian.
            Quote: Alexander Green
            Wrangel fought for his baronial and general privileges, for his freedom parasitize on working people.

            Give his statements on this subject. Your chatter, of course, is not accepted
            Quote: Alexander Green
            His Teutonic ancestors raided on Lake Peipsi from Alexander Nevsky, to the Battle of Grunwald from the combined Slavic army, near Poltava from Peter the Great, and in Crimea he received Wrangel himself from Frunze.

            His ancestors, including relatives of A.S. Pushkin, faithfully served Russia, increasing it in size, which you, in turn, reduced to 17th-century Russia.
            Wrangel himself, a volunteer, a veteran of two wars for the independence of Russia, was wounded, the holder of the highest awards of Russia is a worthy person.
            1. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene April 26 2018 16: 17
              +1
              Quote: Olgovich
              Quote: Alexander Green
              What kind of people?
              Russian.

              Stop lying already! Well, if Wrangel Denikin because of his origin did not count as a person, then I can imagine, then you can imagine how he felt about ordinary people. The revolution deprived him of his class status and all the privileges connected with it, and he fought for their return, and not for the Russian people. The Russian people just fought for the destruction of all classes, so that there was no division into masters and slaves.
    3. RUSS
      RUSS April 25 2018 09: 00
      +3
      Quote: Olgovich
      Monument to Peter Nikolaevich in the Crimea.

      Monuments in Serbia and Lithuania were opened to Pyotr Nikolayevich Wrangel, a memorial plaque was opened in the city of Ulyanovo, Kaliningrad Region.
      1. APIS
        APIS April 25 2018 11: 19
        +6
        Monuments in Serbia and Lithuania were opened to Pyotr Nikolayevich Wrangel, a memorial plaque was opened in the city of Ulyanovo, Kaliningrad Region.

        In the village of Elanskaya, Rostov Region, there is a monument to the fascist henchman Krasnov, hanged by the verdict of the tribunal.
        Does this automatically justify all the crimes thereof?
        1. RUSS
          RUSS April 25 2018 15: 16
          +1
          Quote: APIS
          In the village of Elanskaya, Rostov Region, there is a monument to the fascist henchman Krasnov, hanged by the verdict of the tribunal.
          Does this automatically justify all the crimes thereof?

          You probably do not know that this monument stands on private land, in other words, in the garden. Therefore, as they say, this is a personal matter, what and how to do at home and to whom to erect monuments.
          1. APIS
            APIS April 25 2018 17: 44
            +2
            Quote: RUSS
            Quote: APIS
            In the village of Elanskaya, Rostov Region, there is a monument to the fascist henchman Krasnov, hanged by the verdict of the tribunal.
            Does this automatically justify all the crimes thereof?

            You probably do not know that this monument stands on private land, in other words, in the garden. Therefore, as they say, this is a personal matter, what and how to do at home and to whom to erect monuments.

            Any monument is a political affair.
            In Moscow, near the Sokol metro station, a memorial plaque to this character (Krasnov), skin, tooth-gear, etc. stood in the churchyard for long. No one waited for the decision of the authorities.

            For thought. The remnants of the baron’s army withdrawn to Serbia in WWII chose the side of the fascists (Russian security corps), officers of the headquarters of Baron Dragomirov, Abramov (I will not remember everyone) served in the Vlasov’s ROA, and it is not a fact that the baron would have remained on the sidelines.

            By the way, not everyone knows that Kornilov personally awarded the soldier the first to kill his commander (which served as the beginning of the February revolt) with the George Cross with a red bow (!!!) "for civil courage" and made him an officer!

            These are the "heroes"
  2. Korsar4
    Korsar4 April 25 2018 06: 19
    +4
    An interesting figure.
    Although the army of von Rennenkampf fought, in general, unsuccessfully.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 April 25 2018 06: 36
      +5
      Quote: Korsar4
      the army of von Rennenkampf fought, in general, unsuccessfully.

      Mr. Rennenkapp lived in the Crimea under the name Smokovnikov. And when he was arrested, he asked: "For what?" They answered him: "For the betrayal of Samsonov’s army."
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 April 25 2018 06: 54
        +2
        Pikul talks about this. Although different versions exist.
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 April 25 2018 07: 00
          +2
          Quote: Korsar4
          Pikul talks about this.

          Well yes. Pikul, by the way, spent half his life in the archives, so I believe him somehow.
          1. Golovan Jack
            Golovan Jack April 25 2018 07: 16
            +2
            Quote: Mordvin 3
            Pikul, by the way, spent half his life in the archives ...

            ... and the second - lay belay
            Nothing personal, just like the phrase. I rather have a positive attitude towards Pikul, although this still slows down request
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 April 25 2018 07: 25
              +2
              Quote: Golovan Jack
              although it is still slimmer

              What? Who is "slimming"? Why dont know? laughing Ah, I got it. Fiction, huh? That's right. Decrypt hesitated. Well, just like Zamkompomord. wassat
              1. Golovan Jack
                Golovan Jack April 25 2018 07: 26
                +2
                Quote: Mordvin 3
                just like Zamkompomord

                Yeah. It is on these very matters laughing
            2. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene April 25 2018 17: 53
              0
              Quote: Golovan Jack
              Quote: Mordvin 3
              Pikul, by the way, spent half his life in the archives ...

              ... and the second - lay belay
              Nothing personal, just like the phrase. I rather have a positive attitude towards Pikul, although this still slows down request

              Pikul is also the storyteller.
      2. Nehist
        Nehist April 25 2018 07: 20
        +3
        Hmm, interesting, and how did he betray Samsonov’s army? Documents say otherwise
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 April 25 2018 07: 31
          +2
          Quote: Nehist
          Hmm, interesting, and how did he betray Samsonov’s army? Documents say otherwise

          Simply by its inaction. While Samsonov was at war, Rennenkapp with Masha Seckel floundered. This reptile was then hanged like a spy. Well, so Pikul confirms. "I have the honor."
          1. Nehist
            Nehist April 25 2018 08: 07
            +4
            Yeah, read more fiction! First, Samsonov himself lost control of his troops, which characterizes him, to put it mildly, as a poor organizer. Secondly, he received an order to help Samsonov only on the 28th when it was already late and for some reason everyone forgets about another order of the 30th to stay in place. In general, the myth of the inaction of Rennenkamf went from the front to Zhilinsky who tried to absolve himself of the blame for the defeat
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 April 25 2018 08: 10
              +2
              Quote: Nehist
              In general, the myth of the inaction of Rennenkamf went from the front to Zhilinsky who tried to absolve himself of the blame for the defeat

              So did Grand Duke Konstantin fill the face of Zhilinsky, or not? And if so, for what?
              1. Nehist
                Nehist April 25 2018 08: 12
                +2
                What are you talking about? About the myth of Samsonov’s slap? I beg you to never repeat this Pikul nonsense
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 April 25 2018 08: 17
                  +2
                  Quote: Nehist
                  About the myth of Samsonov’s slap?

                  Not. I'm talking about the fact that when Konstantin came to the headquarters to Zhilinsky, he hit him in the face. In WWI. And not in full when allegedly Samsonov in the Russian-Japanese Rennenkappu filled his face, because he did not support him in the attack.
                  1. Nehist
                    Nehist April 25 2018 08: 27
                    +2
                    This is what Konstantin came to headquarters at Zhilinsky?
                    1. Mordvin 3
                      Mordvin 3 April 25 2018 10: 16
                      +1
                      Quote: Nehist
                      This is what Konstantin came to headquarters at Zhilinsky?

                      I confess, beguiled. Commander-in-chief came, Nikolai Nikolaevich.
          2. baudolino
            baudolino April 25 2018 08: 10
            +4
            To print, Pikul had to correct some moments in history. And accordingly, when you find out that in reality everything was a little different, you don’t feel like reading it anymore. It's like Goebbels, with his share of lies in the stream of truth.
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 April 25 2018 08: 14
              +4
              Pikul has some good marine things. But, in general, it’s good for teenagers. Further - you begin to think. But I think that the benefits are still greater.
  3. Yak28
    Yak28 April 25 2018 06: 47
    +7
    Not all white officers fled abroad when they roasted, many remained to serve the new Russia, not because they loved the Soviet power, but because they thought they needed their country and would bring more service to Russia by serving it. And many felt it was better to flee abroad with a darling and live there quietly. What is interesting is that the Whites intended to settle accounts with England and France for military, political assistance, including monetary assistance? I’m sure that if the white movement won, Russia would give Crimea and not only Anglo-French friends wink
    1. rkkasa xnumx
      rkkasa xnumx April 25 2018 08: 01
      +7
      Quote: Yak28
      What is interesting is that the Whites intended to settle accounts with England and France for military, political assistance, including monetary assistance? I’m sure that if the white movement won, Russia would give Crimea and not only Anglo-French friends

      "Recognize all the obligations of Russia and its cities in relation to France with priority and interest on interest.
      Payment of interest and annual repayment is guaranteed:
      a) the transfer to France of the right to operate all the railways of European Russia for a known period; b) the transfer of France the right to levy customs and port duties in all ports of the Black and Azov Seas; c) by providing France with surplus bread in Ukraine and the Kuban region for a certain number of years, with pre-war export being taken as the starting point; d) by providing France with three-quarters of oil and gasoline production for a known period, with pre-war production being put in the foundation; e) transfer of a quarter of the coal mined in the Donetsk Region over a known number of years. The indicated period will be established by a special agreement that has not yet been worked out.
      Paragraphs b, c and e take effect immediately upon the occupation by the troops of the gene. Wrangel relevant territories. The proceeds from the export of raw materials are used to pay interest on old debts.
      Under the Russian ministries of finance, trade and industry, official French financial and commercial offices will be established in the future, the rights of which must be established by a special agreement. "
      1. Lieutenant Teterin
        Lieutenant Teterin April 25 2018 10: 01
        +6
        Sorry, but you, obviously out of ignorance, post a fake. This “agreement” existed only on the pages of the Daily Herald — a British trade union newspaper loyal to the Bolsheviks. But even more interestingly, an article with this “agreement” appeared in the newspaper after ... Lev Kamenev’s visit to Britain! Which, according to British intelligence, contributed 40 thousand pounds to the editor of this newspaper. https://leon-spb67.livejournal.com/958160.html
        So we are talking about a banal fake paid by the Bolsheviks, which in principle is not surprising, a lie is their corporate identity.
        1. BAI
          BAI April 25 2018 10: 29
          +4
          a lie is their corporate identity.

          Is this also a lie of the Bolsheviks?
          On December 8, 1918, in his diary, the British Ambassador to France, Lord Francis Bertie:

          “There is no more Russia! It broke up, and the idol in the person of the emperor and religion, which connected different nations of the Orthodox faith, disappeared. If only we succeed in achieving the independence of the buffer states bordering Germany in the east, i.e. Finland, Poland, Estonia, Ukraine, etc., and no matter how much they could be fabricated, then, for me, the rest can be removed to hell and boiled in its own juice. The Russian Republic would not be able to rule [18] the Mohammedan khanates in Central Asia and the Caucasian principalities ”{22}.

          And of course about the link provided: https: //leon-spb67.livejournal.com/958160.
          html - it would be better if they didn’t.
          Several times there was a mention that Wrangel entered into a secret treaty with the French government, which, in fact, gave the country to plunder. Links lead to a collection of articles "Entente and Wrangel" 1923 release. The author of the article refers to the London newspaper Daily Herald of August 30, 1920.

          Here is a scan of the article (it was not possible to upload a picture in LiveJournal - it’s broken):

          Home
          Extension

          In the footnote to the article, it is said that White issued a refutation.
          There are no issues on the British newspaper archive website for 1920 and the article cannot be found:

          http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/r
          esults? newspaperTitle = Daily% 20Herald

          The English Wiki writes that this is a working union newspaper. He also writes that exactly in August 1920 Lev Kamenev came to London and British intelligence intercepted his telegram to Lenin, in which he reported that he had transferred 40 thousand pounds to this newspaper and promised another 10 thousand in the near future:
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Herald_(UK_ne
          wspape)

          In August 1920 Lev Kamenev, a Bolshevik diplomat visiting London on official business, sent a telegram addressed to Lenin in Moscow which was intercepted and deciphered by British intelligence. The telegram stated that Kamenev had paid £ 40,000.00 to the Daily Herald, and a further payment of £ 10,000.00 would be made shortly. [1]

          A question for those studying the history of the Civil War: was it a contract, or is it a fake and an episode of the information war?

          Not only that - a living journal = "the most reliable source of information", because there the author himself says that his words are a hypothesis. Moreover, no one doubts this article in the Daily Herald (I have not seen other opinions). All (those articles that I saw) recognize its authenticity, including (for example): Pykhalov I. The Great Obligan War. - M .: Yauza, Eksmo, 2005 .-- 480 p.
          1. Lieutenant Teterin
            Lieutenant Teterin April 25 2018 10: 56
            +5
            Quote: BAI
            On December 8, 1918, in his diary, the British Ambassador to France, Lord Francis Bertie:
            “There is no more Russia! It broke up, and the idol in the person of the emperor and religion, which connected different nations of the Orthodox faith, disappeared. If only we succeed in achieving the independence of the buffer states bordering Germany in the east, i.e. Finland, Poland, Estonia, Ukraine, etc.,

            Well, Russophobia of the British is a long-known fact. As well as the fact that the Bolsheviks, having barely gained power, with manic consistency began to realize the dreams of this lord.
            Quote: BAI
            Not only that - a live journal = "the most reliable source of information",

            Your irony is not appropriate. LJ is a normal resource and sane researchers are often published there.
            Quote: BAI
            All (those articles that I saw) recognize its authenticity, including (for example): Pykhalov I. The Great Obligan War. - M .: Yauza, Eksmo, 2005 .-- 480 p.

            Forgive me for my harshness, but they might not have referred to Liar Pykhalov. If this grief “historian” begins to write about Old Russia, then he’s got nonsense ... worse than that of home-grown “liberals”.
            for example, what he writes about engineering education in Russia:
            about the presence of qualified personnel, which, according to the famous statement of Stalin, decide everything, we also clearly lost in comparison with the Germans. If in Germany compulsory secondary education was introduced back in 1871, in Russia on the eve of the revolution more than 70% of the adult population remained illiterate. In 1913, 10 thousand people graduated from higher education institutions of the Russian Empire, including only 1800 engineers.

            While in reality the situation was somewhat different:
            The data in the works of our domestic experts on higher education in imperial Russia, Ivanov, Saprykin and the Swedish historian Goran Alkhstrom, differ very little. Yes Yes. And Ivanov as well. The number of graduations for one 1913 of 1800 civil engineers is underestimated - these are only civil engineers. (military engineers and graduates of the physics and mathematics departments of universities, who often worked as engineers in all fields, should be added to it - this will be about 2000 more people, that is, a little less than 4000 certified "techies" in total). Moreover, in Germany in those same years, approximately 1300 engineering diplomas were issued per year. In France - a little less than 1000, and for example in Sweden - about 150.
            https://corporatelie.livejournal.com/11136.html
            Warning your indignation regarding LJ, I’ll tell you that the author of this page in LJ is a Petersburg graduate student, a person who studies the history of pre-revolutionary Russia and the penetration system based on archival data. And he refers in confirmation of his figures to the monograph of Dmitry Leonidovich Saprykin, a researcher at the Institute of the History of Natural Science and Technology. S. I. Vavilova of the Russian Academy of Sciences “Educational potential of the Russian Empire.” This work is really voluminous and relies on a wide range of sources.
            In other words, Mr. Pykhalov, in his attempt to denigrate Russia, does not stop at silence and overt lies, therefore, there is no confidence in his words that he allegedly saw the text of the Wrangel agreement.
            1. BAI
              BAI April 25 2018 12: 58
              +2
              but they might not have referred to Liar Pykhalov.

              Well, of course, after such words:

              “Those who ended up in exile were simply thrown out of the country and, accordingly, had no influence on her life. Therefore, it’s interesting that many of today's white advocates are mostly descendants of the Reds, who suddenly imagined themselves gentlemen. Their grandfathers and great-grandfathers at one time established Soviet power, and they forgot about this and are engaged in the propaganda of anti-Soviet. As for all these Gallipolis - they lost, were thrown out of the country, and should not have any influence, no authority for us, "the historian noted.
              “He is certainly a liar.” By the way - a live journal, where as you know
              LJ is a normal resource and sane researchers are often published there.

              https://pyhalov.livejournal.com/530133.html
              1. Lieutenant Teterin
                Lieutenant Teterin April 25 2018 14: 22
                +4
                Quote: BAI
                Well, of course, after such words:

                Forgive me, but ... Did you click on the link? Which I left in the comments. There, by the way, there is a detailed analysis of his opuses, indicating direct forgeries and errors, so my assessment of Mr. Pykhalov is not dictated by ideological differences, but by objective reality.
          2. Dart2027
            Dart2027 April 25 2018 19: 42
            +1
            Quote: BAI
            If only we succeed in achieving the independence of the buffer states bordering Germany in the east, i.e. Finland, Poland, Estonia, Ukraine, etc., and no matter how much they could be fabricated, then, for me, the rest can be removed to hell and boiled in its own juice.

            Well, who granted independence to these states, and created some of them? Wrangel has nothing to do with it.
            1. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene April 25 2018 22: 11
              +3
              Quote: Dart2027
              Well, who granted independence to these states, and created some of them? Wrangel has nothing to do with it.

              When will you already learn to think dialectically and stop asking stupid questions? You do not understand that the February bourgeois revolution of 1917 led to national self-awareness of all the peoples living in the territory of the former tsarist Russia. It was already impossible to drive them back into a single and indivisible force. Therefore, the Bolsheviks, relying on the principle of self-determination of nations in 1922 created the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which withstood the test of the Great Patriotic War.
              Destroyed the USSR again the national question. Only here there was no longer national awareness, but bourgeois nationalism, which wanted to protect its market from the center.
              1. Dart2027
                Dart2027 April 25 2018 22: 41
                +1
                Quote: Alexander Green
                When will you already learn to think dialectically and stop asking stupid questions?

                Well, if without beautiful words, then who exactly?
                Quote: Alexander Green
                It was already impossible to drive them back into a single and indivisible force.

                Truth? In this case, what was the spacecraft doing during the GW?
                1. Alexander Greene
                  Alexander Greene April 26 2018 16: 20
                  +1
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  Quote: Alexander Green
                  It was already impossible to drive them back into a single and indivisible force.
                  Truth? In this case, what was the spacecraft doing during the GW?

                  Dear, learn the story.
                  1. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 April 26 2018 19: 41
                    0
                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    Dear, learn the story.

                    So what did she do?
                    1. Alexander Greene
                      Alexander Greene April 27 2018 00: 03
                      0
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      So what did she do?

                      Expelled the interventionists and White Guards from their land.
                      1. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 April 27 2018 05: 39
                        0
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        Expelled the interventionists and White Guards from their land

                        But what about the territories of peoples with awakened "national self-awareness"? You are so diligently avoiding the question
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Well, who granted independence to these states, and created some of them?
                      2. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene April 27 2018 10: 00
                        0
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        But what about the territories of peoples with awakened "national self-awareness"? You are so diligently avoiding the question

                        I told you: learn history. Didn’t you hear that during the civil war in many suburbs there was its own Red Army, they even led their orders.
        2. kan123
          kan123 April 25 2018 10: 46
          +3
          Do not say, “England refused to support the hopeless White Cause,” sobsno after Novorossiysk everything was clear to everyone. But the French were firmly entrenched, and did not want to give up the South Russian provinces - they bought millions of tithes from Ukrainians there, the whole export of grain - and so on. - all bought up cheaply, put on Wrangel, save good. It was just the fact that tomorrow the day would come, just as obvious. The French did not understand what they hoped for, made this bet, and the whole Wrangel (and he threw violent activity around the Crimea) was paid by the French. Through them went the political line, newspapers, and so on. The whole Wrangel Crimea is France. All their money and agents, like Wrangel.
          1. BAI
            BAI April 25 2018 13: 16
            +3
            Quote: kan123
            Do not say, “England refused to support the hopeless White Cause,” sobsno after Novorossiysk everything was clear to everyone.

            Not really. To some extent, England "harnessed" to Wrangel:
            On April 19, the English Admiral Seymour handed the following telegram to the English Admiralty to Wrangel:

            "The British Admiralty notifies that Lord Curzon sent Mr. Chicherin on Saturday April 19 (NST) a telegram informing him that despite the defeat of the Armed Forces of the South of Russia, they could not be allowed to die completely. Therefore, if Mr. Chicherin does not agree to the mediation of Lord Curzon and to the cessation of the further offensive which could have followed on the part of the Soviets, His Majesty’s government will be obliged to send its fleet to protect the Crimean army from unhindered capture by the Soviets of the last refuge of the Russian army".

            day to day, at both addresses.
            1. kan123
              kan123 April 26 2018 10: 46
              0
              When England “morally supports”, it costs nothing, not a penny. And when England pounds pounds - it makes a big difference - England, oddly enough, immediately began to cooperate with the Sov. the authorities - that was their answer to all the questions. Their inspectors came to give a description of the white movement, - at some point, realized that it wasn’t a canal - they again recalled the "ambassador" of the "commissar" replaced the white man with a white-man who already fed fairy tales. It was just a mockery - white came parades full of equipment for fencing - like greetings from the working class of England - they sent swords to the nobles - and fight them. Such things could not have happened without the government of London - which for some reason began to scoff at the white movement in RI,
        3. Alexander Greene
          Alexander Greene April 25 2018 17: 57
          +4
          Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
          This “agreement” existed only on the pages of the Daily Herald — a British trade union newspaper loyal to the Bolsheviks.

          Intersno, but how did Wrangel pay the Entente for tanks and planes delivered to him?
      2. BAI
        BAI April 25 2018 10: 13
        +4
        Wrangel's obligations to France, mentioned above, are obviously taken from the contract:
        * * *
        Contract
        Wrangel undertakes:


        Since now amateurs will come running screaming that this is a fake and I’ll add a lie:
        This document was published in the English newspaper “Daily Herald” dated 30 / VIII 1920.
    2. kan123
      kan123 April 25 2018 10: 52
      +5
      If White would have won, then in parallel they bought up exchanges throughout the Republic of Ingushetia. The British prepared 200 million pounds for the purchase of all assets of all exchanges, for which they had an intermediary, a large industrialist. Completely all assets were transferred to the British, legally - according to all laws. The plan was signed at the very top of London, and it was already working - a couple of millions were transferred, and then the whites began to get stuck, this buying up of Russia, they froze, and then refused at all - the Bolsheviks would simply laugh from these pieces of paper.
  4. Monarchist
    Monarchist April 25 2018 09: 58
    +4
    Quote: rkkasa 81
    Quote: Olgovich
    Volunteer, a veteran of two wars for the Fatherland, a competent and brave officer, fighting for Russia to the end

    The hilarious hirelings of the British and French, who fought with their people.

    Before the civil war, there were RYAV and PMV, where Wrangel distinguished himself
    1. rkkasa xnumx
      rkkasa xnumx April 25 2018 12: 28
      +7
      Quote: Monarchist
      Volunteer, a veteran of two wars for the Fatherland, a competent and brave officer, fighting for Russia to the end
      The hilarious hirelings of the British and French, who fought with their people.
      Before the civil war, there were RYAV and PMV, where Wrangel distinguished himself

      Vlasov, too, did not immediately become bad. Let us open a monument to him.
  5. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master April 25 2018 10: 35
    +7
    In the Volosovsky district of the Leningrad region there is a village Torosovo. Before the revolution, it contained the estate of the barons Wrangel. The remains of the baronial manor are preserved in the village, even in such a deplorable state as they are now - impressive. Several times passed through the village, but unfortunately, it was not possible to stop, wander around the ruins. Next to the estate there is an old park.
    In January, the cousin of Peter Wrangel - Georgy Mikhailovich (according to some sources - with his brother Mikhail) was killed in the estate of 1918, someone told by local peasants, someone from the nearest station sailors.
    In general, according to the character of the article, he did not do anything substantially useful for Russia, and he shedded bloodsheds of the Russian, both white and red, for which he was punished with life-long emigration. There is no need to erect monuments to him, but there is nothing to defame either. There were many such people, they were better, they were worse, someone was lucky, someone was not. So, a pie with nothing, by chance in troubled times, who managed to be on the crest of a wave for a short time.
  6. The comment was deleted.
    1. Lieutenant Teterin
      Lieutenant Teterin April 25 2018 10: 58
      +5
      The level of knowledge in your comment is “off scale”. http://rueuro.ru/item/36-petr-vrangel-nesostoyavs
      hijsya-reformator-rossii
      Read at least a brief overview of what Wrangel actually did in Crimea.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. RUSS
          RUSS April 25 2018 15: 18
          +3
          Quote: kan123
          Wrangel in the Crimea drank a bitter, his usual norm. He got drunk in the trash, his headquarters was like a nativity scene. Parrots in cages, peacocks, whores. Signatures set while bast could knit. His principle of management was "do what you want, do not bother me to rest."

          This was not even in frenzied Soviet propaganda. laughing
          1. kan123
            kan123 April 25 2018 20: 09
            +1
            and what else was left for him? To send useless landings to "raise the Don region"? Give "land to the peasants" with payments until 1973? Provide evacuation? Sobsno is all the action in three parts, Baron Wrangel. 1 for the landing on Don, they came to him and said - they gathered a bunch of enthusiasts - he signed. 2 giving the land to the peasants - this is the French drove up to democracy - he signed. Evacuation? The evacuation does not depend on the commander-in-chief, it depends on the French, who counted the people, and adjusted accordingly. ships, whatever would be like in Novorossiysk, does not depend on the commander in chief. By the way, I’m very grateful to the French that they carried out this entire evacuation by 100% - almost all who wanted to move out of Crimea were transferred.
  7. Monarchist
    Monarchist April 25 2018 12: 48
    +1
    Quote: Korsar4
    An interesting figure.
    Although the army of von Rennenkampf fought, in general, unsuccessfully.

    Denikin has a different opinion on this
  8. Alex_59
    Alex_59 April 25 2018 13: 10
    +3
    As always, instead of just reading and taking note, you need to arrange a break about whether Wrangel was good or bad. A sort of historical masturbation. Gather under each article about red or white and perform the same frictions over the bodies of long-dead people, periodically receiving orgasms from pathos and ChSV.
    Does it seem to me alone a profound form of mental disorder?
    Sorry for our story ...
    1. Pissarro
      Pissarro April 25 2018 13: 38
      +2
      Any such article is an excuse to uncover checkers and continue: "white cut red, red cut white." The civil war in our minds has not ended and will not end soon. Emotions are boiling
      1. Alex_59
        Alex_59 April 25 2018 14: 20
        +1
        Quote: Pissarro
        The civil war in our minds has not ended and will not end soon. Emotions are boiling

        For me it's over. And in these disputes, I am not upset by the reconciliation of rhetoric, not the desire to compromise and recognize the obvious things. Cosplayers gathered, some imagined themselves gentlemen officers, others apparently communists. To an adult, this should seem ridiculous. 21 century in the yard!
        And there is still no respect for the personalities of the past. What kind of respect for our country from the outside can be discussed when we are ready to water our ancestors with slop only because their activities do not coincide with our political views? Or vice versa, you read a comment about other figures, so it’s not otherwise that they are just a rainbow and pooped, and farted by butterflies - so beautiful. On the face of bias.
      2. Yak28
        Yak28 April 25 2018 17: 43
        +2
        That's right, our society is again divided into white and red (rich and poor)
      3. Alexander Greene
        Alexander Greene April 25 2018 18: 00
        +2
        Quote: Pissarro
        The civil war in our minds has not ended and will not end soon. Emotions are boiling

        As long as classes and class struggle exist, a civil war is inevitable.
        1. Pissarro
          Pissarro April 25 2018 18: 52
          +1
          Classes will always exist, that is, will there be a confrontation until the end of time?
          1. Alexander Greene
            Alexander Greene April 25 2018 22: 17
            +3
            Quote: Pissarro
            Classes will always exist, that is, will there be a confrontation until the end of time?

            No not always. Classes will be destroyed during the construction of communism, when everyone will become collective workers as a result of the destruction of the opposites between mental and physical labor, and between the city and the village. Before that there will be a class struggle from physical to ideological. This is an objective reality and there is no getting around it.
            1. Pissarro
              Pissarro April 26 2018 00: 30
              +2
              It sounds stupid even at the theory level. People of mental and physical labor will never be equal. The village will never be equal to the city. This is an objective reality, and I am sure that the Communist theorists themselves understand this very well, but carry this heresy to the masses. As a person familiar with peasant labor, I know that the peasant simply does not have time for abstruse urban philosophies, just as there is no time and opportunity for the development of children at the city level.
              1. Alexander Greene
                Alexander Greene April 26 2018 16: 28
                0
                Quote: Pissarro
                It sounds stupid even at the theory level.

                If this were stupid, then the ideas of communism would not take over the masses.
  9. Monarchist
    Monarchist April 25 2018 13: 40
    +2
    Quote: Korsar4
    Pikul has some good marine things. But, in general, it’s good for teenagers. Further - you begin to think. But I think that the benefits are still greater.

    It’s almost the same to refer to Pikul that, according to Lermontov’s poem “Borodino”, to learn the history of the war of 1812.
    In general, Pikul can be used as a Christology on history for grades 5-6. True, they read little now, and Pikul even more so. I often visit my library and somehow wondered what students from grades 4 to 6 read? Krylov, Anderson, Zhelyazny, Ursula Leguin. By the way, from our classic literature are in demand: Pushkin, Tyutchev, Lermontov, Dostoevsky, and Ostrovsky only comedies. Belinsky and Chernyshevsky are not asked. Someone who claims that Soviet literature is not in demand at all. Judging by our library, this is not entirely true: "Quiet Don" by Sholokhov (book 1, but they don’t read the end), Solzhinitsin, V. Bykov, Gaidar stories, and Timur and his team, School, Gorky’s Mother NO ONE READS. The "Young Guard" is often read.
    The library periodically writes unclaimed literature on me.
    1. Alex_59
      Alex_59 April 25 2018 14: 06
      +1
      Quote: Monarchist
      In general, Pikul can be used as a Christology on history for 5-6 classes.

      Not for advanced users. On his cruiser Askold, the bow tower was turning somewhere there. I read as a child, and already neighing.
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 April 25 2018 22: 08
      +1
      You can learn a lot from history. I usually recommend starting with A. K. Tolstoy: "The history of the Russian state from Gostamysl to Timashev."
  10. Monarchist
    Monarchist April 25 2018 13: 45
    +2
    Quote: mordvin xnumx
    Quote: Nehist
    In general, the myth of the inaction of Rennenkamf went from the front to Zhilinsky who tried to absolve himself of the blame for the defeat

    So did Grand Duke Konstantin fill the face of Zhilinsky, or not? And if so, for what?

    Perhaps Nikolai Nikolayevich, and Konstantin Romanov, it could not in any way- SUBBORDINATION
  11. Monarchist
    Monarchist April 25 2018 14: 11
    +2
    Quote: EwgenyZ
    Quote: Kotischa
    Wrangel is a rather controversial figure on the “chessboard” during the years of the Civil War.

    And then who was "white and fluffy"? There was a civil war, all the "distinguished" and the red, and white, and green. You just need to remember all the outstanding personalities of that era, regardless of their place in the trenches .... This is our story, whatever it may be ....

    I agree with you: in the Civil War, there are no "white and fluffy" ones, but THIS IS OUR HISTORY .. WE NEED TO KNOW ALL OF THE WORKERS.
  12. Gopnik
    Gopnik April 25 2018 14: 27
    +1
    Hero of Russia!
  13. Monarchist
    Monarchist April 25 2018 14: 30
    +2
    Quote: APIS
    Monuments in Serbia and Lithuania were opened to Pyotr Nikolayevich Wrangel, a memorial plaque was opened in the city of Ulyanovo, Kaliningrad Region.

    In the village of Elanskaya, Rostov Region, there is a monument to the fascist henchman Krasnov, hanged by the verdict of the tribunal.
    Does this automatically justify all the crimes thereof?

    The Krasnov Monument stands in the PRIVATE YARD; this is personally5 a matter of man. Some cling to the wall photographs of their ancestors, while others photographs of cats. About the same thing as the Plug asked Tarapunk: "what is the letter C on the table?" It turned out a boot: "My thing where I want to go there and put"
  14. losevo36
    losevo36 April 25 2018 15: 55
    +2
    Yes, rest in peace! Trinity Church in Belgrade, here lies Wrangel. Flowers from the Russians .. 2016
  15. BAI
    BAI April 25 2018 17: 13
    +3
    And finally, who fought for whom in the Civil War, whom the people supported. Diary of the minister in the government of Wrangel, journalist G. Rakovsky. Since no one believes the quotes anymore - a photocopy.
    1. Gopnik
      Gopnik April 25 2018 17: 44
      +2
      And what does “who fought for whom in the Civil War, whom the people supported” show in this quote?
      The fact that the majority of the population did not support anyone and did not burn with the desire to fight for anyone, but wanted to sit on the priest exactly and to keep up with them, as well as the fact that they were not behind them, but carried out requisition, surplus-appropriation and mobilization - for no one not a secret.
      1. BAI
        BAI April 25 2018 20: 17
        +2
        Grabiarmia - who is it about? About the defenders of the people? "Complaints of robbery and atrocities" against whom?
      2. The comment was deleted.
  16. Dart2027
    Dart2027 April 27 2018 20: 31
    +1
    Quote: Alexander Green
    I told you: learn history. Didn’t you hear that during the civil war in many suburbs there was its own Red Army, they even led their orders.

    And how many of these Red Armies were and to whom did they obey?
    Quote: Dart2027
    Well, who granted independence to these states, and created some of them?
    1. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene April 27 2018 23: 49
      +1
      Quote: Dart2027
      And how many of these Red Armies were and to whom did they obey?

      Take the encyclopedia "Civil War and Military Intervention in the USSR", 1983 edition and read on S.297-298.
      1. Dart2027
        Dart2027 April 28 2018 19: 00
        0
        Quote: Alexander Green
        Take the Encyclopedia

        Is there a link?
        Quote: Dart2027
        Well, who granted independence to these states, and created some of them?
        1. Alexander Greene
          Alexander Greene April 29 2018 02: 12
          +1
          Quote: Dart2027
          Is there a link?

          Maybe there is, I have a book edition. Buy at a used bookstore.
          1. Alexander Greene
            Alexander Greene April 29 2018 02: 37
            +1
            Quote: Alexander Green
            Quote: Dart2027
            Is there a link?

            Maybe there is, I have a book edition. Buy at a used bookstore.

            In case you don’t find it. There were: the Red Army of Azerbaijan, Armenia, Bukhara, Georgia, the North Caucasus, Khorezm, the Red Fleet of Soviet Azerbaijan, the Crimean Army, the Red Army of the Far Eastern Republic, the Ukrainian Soviet Army, the Estland Army.
            1. Dart2027
              Dart2027 April 29 2018 07: 29
              0
              Quote: Alexander Green
              In case you don’t find

              There was a spacecraft that was created by Lenin, Trotsky and their associates, and which obeyed them as circumstances allowed. Everything else was in the spirit of Makhno's walk-field.
              Quote: Dart2027
              Well, who granted independence to these states, and created some of them?
              1. Alexander Greene
                Alexander Greene April 29 2018 11: 48
                +1
                Quote: Dart2027
                There was a spacecraft that was created by Lenin, Trotsky and their associates, and which obeyed them as circumstances allowed. Everything else was in the spirit of Makhno's walk-field.

                Well, why say so? You first figure it out, and then draw your own conclusion. Read the encyclopedia, but I didn’t name either Makhno’s army, or Zeleny and the like, didn’t even name international and national military units. And there were, for example, the Crooked Guard of Finland, etc.
                But I named only those that were created and subordinate to the Councils of People's Commissars of these republics or states. After unification in 1922 into the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the army became one.
                1. Dart2027
                  Dart2027 April 29 2018 13: 08
                  0
                  Quote: Alexander Green
                  But I named only those that were created and subordinate to the Councils of People's Commissars

                  And where did these tips come from? Is it not from the Bolshevik party?
                  Quote: Alexander Green
                  data of republics or states

                  And what at that moment, before the struggle against Great Russian chauvinism began, were there any republics or states?
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  Well, who granted independence to these states, and created some of them?

                  So who?
                  1. Alexander Greene
                    Alexander Greene April 29 2018 17: 22
                    +1
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    And where did these tips come from? Is it not from the Bolshevik party?

                    Respect, teach history, that you are not aware of the fact that in each republic there were formed its own Communist Parties, its Councils of People's Commissars, its armies, and stop trolling, you don’t even remember how you started the dialogue with me. What else do you want me to tell you? You will not succeed in catching me on anything; behind me is the truth of history and the best Soviet education. Do not waste your time.
                    1. Dart2027
                      Dart2027 April 29 2018 17: 55
                      0
                      Quote: Alexander Green
                      I have the truth of history and the best Soviet education
                      according to which there was one communist party and its local representatives.
                      Quote: Alexander Green
                      you don’t even remember how you started the dialogue with me

                      I'm with you? My question is April 25, 18.42 addressed to "BAI"
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      Well, who granted independence to these states, and created some of them? Wrangel has nothing to do with it.

                      It was you who started a dialogue with me, which, apparently, you yourself managed to forget, and by the way, I repeat this question in every post. Well, so how do you finally answer?
                      1. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene April 29 2018 23: 27
                        +1
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        according to which there was one communist party and its local representatives.

                        As I understand it, it’s useless to explain to you, you still persevere in your own way, but maybe readers do not all know that the communist parties in the republics were independent, everyone had their constituent congresses, their charters and programs were adopted.
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Well, who granted independence to these states, and created some of them? Wrangel has nothing to do with it.
                        It was you who started a dialogue with me, which, apparently, you yourself managed to forget, and by the way, I repeat this question in every post. Well, so how do you finally answer?

                        You really forgot your initial question to me: “... what was the SC doing during the GW?”, To which you so wanted to hear the answer that the Red Army of the RSFSR forced the national suburbs into the UNION by force. So this is not so.
                        Do you repeat about the right of nations to self-determination? You don’t recognize him anyway. So what are we to talk about? Communicate with Olgovich, you have complete consensus with him on this issue
  17. Dart2027
    Dart2027 April 30 2018 06: 46
    0
    Quote: Alexander Green
    As I understand it, it’s useless to explain to you, you still persevere in your own way, but maybe readers do not all know that the communist parties in the republics were independent, everyone had their constituent congresses, their charters and programs were adopted.

    In the Soviet school, namely the Soviet one, they always told me that there was one party and its branches on the ground.
    Quote: Alexander Green
    You really forgot your initial question to me: "... what was the spacecraft doing during the GW?"
    Oh really? This question was asked in a message April 25, 2018 22:41, in response to your post April 25, 2018 22:11, which was the answer to my post April 25, 2018 19:42.
    Quote: Alexander Green
    , to which you so wanted to hear the answer that the Red Army of the RSFSR forcibly drove the national suburbs into the UNION. So this is not so.
    Well, what did she do when she tried to enter the Baltic states, Poland, etc.?
    Quote: Dart2027
    Well, who granted independence to these states, and created some of them? Wrangel has nothing to do with it.
    1. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene April 30 2018 17: 13
      +1
      Quote: Dart2027
      In the Soviet school, namely the Soviet one, they always told me that there was one party and its branches on the ground.

      You can see taught such as Shpakovsky, who educated anti-Soviet, such as you. So ask your questions to him, my answers will still not satisfy you, we have a different vision and understanding of history.
      1. Dart2027
        Dart2027 April 30 2018 19: 33
        +1
        Quote: Alexander Green
        You probably taught such as Shpakovsky

        Ordinary textbooks.
        Quote: Alexander Green
        my answers will not satisfy you anyway

        Did you answer?
        Quote: Dart2027
        Well, who granted independence to these states, and created some of them?

        Once again I ask.
  18. The comment was deleted.
  19. Gepard
    Gepard 11 May 2018 10: 20
    0
    Everything is numbed by some again to become gentlemen, to start slaves. And crunch French bun.
  20. Bouncer
    Bouncer 15 May 2018 15: 08
    +15
    After all, it was the first and in fact, one of a kind, cavalry attack of the World War, the first serious combat episode of the Russian Guards cavalry.

    On the conscience of the author, this phrase.
    More than 400 horseback attacks (both Rubets and Kersnovsky write about them) are mostly successful. And the guns were taken away not by 2 little things (as under Causen on August 6, the date is by the way not indicated), but by whole batteries and divisions.
    For example (these are just a few examples) - on May 26, 1916, a detachment of the 17th Hussar Chernigov regiment near the village. Rafalovka captured 6 guns. On June 2, the Zaamur cavalry division captured 8 guns during a battle in the Berestechko area. On June 8, the 11th Cavalry and Orenburg Cossack divisions captured 11 light and 1 heavy guns during a horse attack at Blinov.
    Brilliant business awaited the Russian cavalry under the seats. Volchetsk. On June 23, 1916, the German batteries, having managed to make only a few shots, were attacked by Russian cavalry. An eyewitness recalled: “We had to see the field of attack of the Novomirgorodsky Lancers (17th Lancers Regiment) on the village ... several hours after the attack. The corpses of the lancer and the horses lay mainly along two ditches, not wide, but with steep steep banks, dug along the houses. Obviously, the horses paused here ... these riders and their horses, which had stopped in their pursuit, were killed from the windows of the houses by German infantrymen. Where the field was clear, the attack swept through almost without loss. ”
    The 16th and 17th ulan, 17th and 18th hussar regiments took the following trophies: the 16th ulan Novoarkhangelsky regiment - 4 howitzers, the 17th ulan Novomirgorod regiment - 7 light guns and the 17th hussar Chernigov regiment - 3 heavy guns.
    The document reported: “During the horse attack, the Ulan brigade (16th Cavalry Division) took not 5 guns from Volchetsk, as indicated earlier, but a 6-gun Krupp battery; in addition, the four-gun battery and 3 heavy guns were taken during the pursuit.
    Etc.
    1. Bouncer
      Bouncer 17 May 2018 08: 50
      +15
      And this is the 16th year
      About the maneuverable 14th and 15th I am silent.
      In October 1915, Wrangel was transferred to the South-Western Front and was appointed commander of the 1st Nerchinsky Regiment of the Ussuri Horse Brigade (later deployed to the division)


      then in July 1917 - the commander of the 7th cavalry division, and after - the commander of the Consolidated cavalry corps.

      Alexander Samsonov is wrong. By August 1917 P.N. Wrangel combined posts the chief 7th Cavalry Division and Commander Consolidated equestrian corps (Karpeev. Cavalry. divisions, brigades, corps. Units of the Russian army. P. 169.)
      And as commander Horse Wrangel Corps