Military Review

What is India left with after giving up the FGFA? On specific Indian claims for Su-57

149
In India and abroad, they continue to discuss the decision of the Indian military-industrial leadership to withdraw from the joint FGFA program with Russia. A few days after the decision of New Delhi, statements appeared that claims were claims, but what was the result that India was going to replace the project, on which years and considerable funds had already been spent?


So, in the online magazine The Drive It is said that India is still forced to look at how geopolitical rival - China - is completing the program of its version of the fifth-generation fighter J-20. It is noted that while India was dragging on time, not deciding whether to support the FGFA project or not to support, China continued to invest in its program and achieved some success.

The report of the military analysts of India for the country's defense department, which criticized the stealth characteristics of the Russian Su-57, is also being discussed. Namely, Su-57 actually had to become the basis for a joint Russian-Indian development. The report says that the flows created by the engines of the so-called first stage allow fighters to be detected by radars. It was noted that in American fighters this problem was largely solved with the help of the design features of “special partitions covering the engine surface”, as well as with the form of the airframe itself, partially covering the work of the power plants.

In addition, the Indian report noted other reasons for the “low stealth characteristics” of the Su-57 fighter, which are not officially reported.

What is India left with after giving up the FGFA? On specific Indian claims for Su-57


At the same time, experts in India themselves are wondering if the “stealth problems” of the Russian fighter are so critical that they cannot be modified within a tight period of time with active bilateral participation? Thus, it is expressed doubt that the “low level of stealth characteristics” cannot even be compensated by other features of the same Su-57 even at the present stage. Or is India not yet ready to admit that it’s all about the weak preparation of its own pilots to control such a machine?

Western resources, including The Drive itself, write that in this situation, India has only one option left - to become a partner in the F-35 program. But just a few weeks ago, material came out in India itself, saying that for the F-35, India has no infrastructure and service segment, including refueling aircraft. That is, you also have to purchase a service link aviation, not to mention the fact that the United States will definitely not transfer the technology of the 5th generation aircraft to India. And the Indian government, as you know, is trying to implement the large-scale “Made in India” program. With FGFA, the implementation of this program would be achieved (as, for example, with BraMos missiles), but with the F-35 and the United States, such a number would not work - the maximum technology from the United States is the F-16 assembly plant in Indian territory.
149 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. bogart047
    bogart047 April 24 2018 16: 31
    +40
    there is no perfect stealth at all. But everyone needs a good plane.
    1. svp67
      svp67 April 24 2018 16: 37
      +22
      Quote: bogart047
      But everyone needs a good plane.

      Well, judging by the next decision of the leadership of India, so no, not everyone ...
      But just a few weeks ago, material came out in India itself that stated that for the F-35, India had no infrastructure and service segment, including refueling aircraft.

      The Americans, I think, can provide for FREE or with a HUGE discount, anyway then they will find how to return this money, even those masters.
      not to mention the fact that the United States will definitely not transfer 5th generation aircraft technology to India.
      Well, why, they can transfer, in stages, in 30 years ...
      1. Astoria
        Astoria April 24 2018 16: 40
        +3
        can provide for FREE or with a HUGE discount
        - Americans + discount laughing
        1. Logall
          Logall April 24 2018 16: 54
          +5
          Quote: Astoria
          - Americans + discount

          But the Poles have been made to "peetriot"! And why Indians can’t do it, but make money on maintenance ...
          1. Astoria
            Astoria April 24 2018 17: 21
            +13
            But the Poles have been made to "peetriot"!
            this is called marketing - ask for two rubles and give away for a ruble, then that costs 50 cents, look at the store on the couch laughing
          2. Evgeniy667b
            Evgeniy667b April 25 2018 02: 25
            +2
            Maybe it’s enough to count money, from which it’s neither hot nor cold to any of the regular participants of the HE? The Indians have secret technologies recorded in the Vaimanika Shastri, which no one can use besides them. And they have more fuel. than enough-piss elephants! And Russia is trying to them, advanced, to engage in "yesterday with a lot of imperfections" in the form of a joint project. Our consciences simply do not have !!! Businessmen are bad. You have to solve your problems!
            1. Not in the system
              Not in the system April 25 2018 10: 00
              0
              Vimanika sastra is available not only to Indians. But to understand what it is difficult for the Indians themselves. These "secret technologies" from the book are so secret that it is easier to decrypt the "Voynich manuscript".
      2. Lavrenti Pavlovich
        Lavrenti Pavlovich April 24 2018 17: 02
        +19
        As soon as China sells to Pakistan several of its J-20s, the Hindus will resort to buy the SU-57, the main thing is not to cheapen ours.
        1. Alex777
          Alex777 April 24 2018 22: 21
          +2
          It seems to me that the Indians have too much to do:
          and air defense - it is necessary, and frigates - it is necessary, hundreds of aircraft - it is necessary (otherwise MIG-21 is still a quarter of the fleet), tanks - it is necessary. Trite money is not enough. Therefore, almost nothing was invested in FGFA. And they will buy ready-made and tested aircraft. We are a woman with a cart, the mare is easier. hi
          1. Zhelezyakin
            Zhelezyakin April 25 2018 10: 13
            +4
            Quote: Alex777
            We are a woman with a cart, the mare is easier.

            On the one hand, I agree, the Indians are a very complex partner. With another...
            This contract is to finance the development of technologies that Russia does not yet have in its asset (although it would have to be shared with the Indians). There would be no excess ...
            1. Alex777
              Alex777 April 25 2018 15: 56
              +3
              For the money that they proposed to invest, you won’t develop anything. They did not even start what they themselves had to develop (supposedly advanced avionics). Therefore, well, them - the brake is not needed. Can you imagine how many forces it was necessary to divert to their stupid Wishlist? For free in fact. Therefore, we concentrate on our tasks. And they will help when they can. hi
        2. Zhelezyakin
          Zhelezyakin April 25 2018 10: 10
          +3
          Our Su-57s are not going to be sold to anyone yet and are unlikely to be assembled.
    2. Berber
      Berber April 24 2018 16: 41
      +5
      They have nowhere to go, they will buy from us. The question is, do we really need stealth? I have a feeling that this is still a marketing move by the Americans so that manufacturers of "miracle weapons" earn more.
      1. NEXUS
        NEXUS April 24 2018 16: 58
        +9
        Quote: BerBer
        They have nowhere to go, they will buy from us

        There is where to start dancing with the French along the Rafals and it is possible to purchase a batch of F-35, without transferring production to them.
        There is also another option - to start purchasing our SU-35 in a truncated version, and beg for the transfer of production of the 35s to India.
        1. NIKNN
          NIKNN April 24 2018 17: 03
          +17
          Andrei, there it is a question of weak stealth (Fu damn barely spoken) Su-57 ... The point is in the Rafaly and Su-35, if even Su-57 does not suit them? Well, I won’t tell you about the F-35 ... One has only to consider that the corruption of Indian officials even makes us smoke aside ...
          1. NEXUS
            NEXUS April 24 2018 17: 19
            +9
            Quote: NIKNN
            Sense in Rafaly and Su-35

            I think the point is not in stealth, but in the fact that the Indians were denied the transfer of key technologies for SU-57 to their territory. Therefore, I said, dancing will begin with the French, and possibly with us on the SU-35 on the basis of the transfer of production to India. It is also possible to purchase a certain batch of F-35.
            1. Shahno
              Shahno April 24 2018 17: 22
              +3
              And then there is a topic. Raise f xnumx? You don’t think about it, the Japanese, so to speak, a trial ball ...
              1. NEXUS
                NEXUS April 24 2018 17: 26
                +8
                Quote: Shahno
                And then there is a topic. Raise f 22?

                No one will "raise" the lizard. The conversation is about a hybrid that mattresses are waving on. Do you think it's easy to cross the F-35 with the F-22? Blessed is he who believes. This is not a modernization of the pangolin, but the creation of a new fighter. And I’m sure that if the US goes for it, then we will see a prototype, or rather a hybrid of these fighters, in 10 years at best. (If at all)
                1. Shahno
                  Shahno April 24 2018 17: 36
                  +2
                  Do not be afraid that they will give 22 to us, with partners, for revision with the Indians, with the Japanese ... The point is grandmas. Will, we are modernizing the Raptor, his hands itch at Raphael.
                  1. NEXUS
                    NEXUS April 24 2018 17: 39
                    +25
                    Quote: Shahno
                    Don’t be afraid that they will give us f22, with partners, to the dorobatka with the Indians, with the Japanese ... The thing is in the grandmother. Will, we are modernizing the Raptor, his hands itch at Raphael.

                    Why be afraid? Flag in hand and a fair wind in a stooped back. We are from these dances of yours with a tambourine in F-35, and even in the lizard it’s not hot or cold. We would bring the 57th to an intelligible series, and then we'll see who is hu.
                  2. MMX
                    MMX April 24 2018 19: 55
                    +4
                    Quote: Shahno
                    Do not be afraid that they will give 22 to us, with partners, for revision with the Indians, with the Japanese ... The point is grandmas. Will, we are modernizing the Raptor, his hands itch at Raphael.


                    And why did you decide that you can improve the F-22?!? Even provided that you receive it.
                  3. Abel
                    Abel April 24 2018 22: 15
                    +5
                    They will give it to you. I remember Israel made a good plane, Kfir was called. The Americans quickly fussed, and not more in Israel their planes, the Americans buy
                  4. Zveruga
                    Zveruga April 26 2018 18: 36
                    0
                    The raptor has a weapon problem. How are you going to refine it?
                2. Zaurbek
                  Zaurbek April 25 2018 08: 20
                  0
                  What is the difficulty? F22 - heavy fighter. Do you think it’s hard to put F-35 systems on it? Another thing is that it itself is expensive and the resumption of production will become a penny and the final product will cost Lyamov 300 dollars.
            2. stalkerwalker
              stalkerwalker April 24 2018 17: 22
              +3
              Quote: NEXUS
              That's why I said, dancing with the French will begin

              ... And I said that this is a lottery - you do not know how much you will make, but you will definitely lose ...
            3. helmi8
              helmi8 April 24 2018 18: 58
              +9
              Quote: NEXUS
              I think the point is not in stealth, but in the fact that the Indians were denied the transfer of key technologies for SU-57 to their territory.

              I agree 100%. There is absolutely no “invisible” aircraft, these are all excuses. The problem of the Indians is that they are not given the technology for their production, so they are “offended”. Still those are hit, even Turks stand aside.
            4. Vita vko
              Vita vko April 24 2018 19: 12
              +4
              Quote: NEXUS
              that the Indians were denied the transfer of key technologies for SU-57 to their territory

              The FGFA and Su-57 projects are not the same thing. They were invited within the FGFA to develop their own technologies for the 5th generation fighter-bomber. And besides the obvious understanding that it is expensive, they were also explained to them that it takes time to create such machines.
              It is the time factor that does not suit the Indians; they have repeatedly spoken about this. For example, look at the development time of the Bramos rocket - more than 10 years! Therefore, they decided that it would be faster and cheaper to buy the technology. Moreover, if we take into account the possibility of applying a Stealth coating similar to F-35 to serial Su-30 aircraft and AFAR installations, their characteristics will not be inferior to the 5th generation, but most importantly they will be several times cheaper.
              1. Alexey Sommer
                Alexey Sommer April 24 2018 19: 27
                +2
                Quote: Vita VKO
                Moreover, if we take into account the possibility of applying a Stealth coating similar to F-35 to serial Su-30 aircraft and AFAR installations, their characteristics will not be inferior to the 5th generation, but most importantly they will be several times cheaper.

                Factor of?!
                Justify.
                1. Vita vko
                  Vita vko April 24 2018 19: 37
                  +2
                  Quote: Alexey Sommer
                  Justify.

                  no need to carry out OCD in 2 billion. $
              2. NEXUS
                NEXUS April 24 2018 19: 54
                +4
                Quote: Vita VKO
                Project FGFA and Su-57 is not the same thing

                If we assume that the FGFA is a spark of the same SU-57, then it is essentially fighters from one derivative. Just like the MIG-35D and MIG-35. Yes, the spark is heavier and because of the co-pilot some of the qualities of a single-seat car will have to be sacrificed.
                Hindus do not need much time, but technologies transferred to their territory.
                They can delay time by purchasing finished products. The key to all these dances with a tambourine is precisely our side’s refusal to transfer secret technologies to their territory.
                1. Vita vko
                  Vita vko April 24 2018 20: 14
                  +4
                  Quote: NEXUS
                  secret technologies to their territory

                  Secret technologies are therefore secret because in principle no one was going to sell them. That is why the FGFA project was developed in the framework of which analogues of secret technologies were to be developed, formally it would be a Russian-Indian export option.
                2. aiden
                  aiden April 25 2018 02: 20
                  +1
                  it’s just not clear why to make a spark from the Su-57 if there the on-board computer replaces the second pilot. and the Yankees f-35 will not be sold to Indians, a state friendly to the Russian Federation. afraid of technology leaks. They will either take from us or from the Chinese.
              3. Zaurbek
                Zaurbek April 25 2018 08: 22
                0
                I do not understand the other. Hindus have access to both British and Israeli and French avionics technologies, Radars and other systems. Could calmly take from us what we have and configure our car ourselves.
                1. Vita vko
                  Vita vko April 25 2018 09: 26
                  +4
                  Quote: Zaurbek
                  Hindus have access to British and Israeli and French avionics technologies

                  Israel has been trying for a long time to drag its avionics into the Indians, primarily radar with AFAR. Obviously, in the first place, there is no talk of any transfer of technologies and algorithms. American technology is based there, and secondly, it will be necessary to switch to the Western arsenal of armaments, which are strictly tied to this avionics, and this is also technology.
                  Quote: aiden
                  it is not clear why from su-57 to make a spark

                  Based on operating experience, it is vital for Indian pilots to have one lead and one supervisory pilot. Their pilot training is too low, and the human factor is often affected.
                  But in my opinion, the main thing here is the task of situational awareness in a serious air battle with a large number of targets. India has not purchased and does not plan to acquire Russian automated control systems located on ground and air-borne aircraft. And there, the analysis of the general air situation and the development of the optimal combat algorithm is being applied. When it comes to dozens of air targets, both friends and strangers in a small area of ​​space, not a single person can figure out this mess and even just get into a rapidly changing situation, even with the support of on-board computer decision-making systems.
              4. Zhelezyakin
                Zhelezyakin April 25 2018 10: 29
                +4
                Quote: Vita VKO
                Moreover, if we take into account the possibility of applying a Stealth coating similar to F-35 to serial Su-30 aircraft and AFAR installations, their characteristics will not be inferior to the 5th generation, but most importantly they will be several times cheaper.

                One coating is not enough. The geometry of the surface on which you apply it is important.
                1. Vita vko
                  Vita vko April 25 2018 11: 22
                  +2
                  Quote: Zhelezyakin
                  The geometry of the surface is important,

                  EPR seriously changes depending on the perspective to the radar, hence the streamlined shape and side bevels. On average, it reduces the detection range by a maximum of 10%, up to 20% in the case of an ideal flying wing, in fact a saucer. The main thing is that there would be no suspended weapons. Then the cover is useless.
                  1. Zhelezyakin
                    Zhelezyakin April 25 2018 11: 31
                    +4
                    Quote: Vita VKO
                    EPR changes dramatically depending on the perspective on the radar,

                    I agree.
                    However, if the angle is unchanged (frontal for example), then the EPR is the derivative of the surface area reflecting the radiation towards the receiving radar antennas. Not so proto iron, called F-117, is all so angular and consists mainly of primitive planes, directed, wherever possible, but not in the direction of probable detection halfway to the target. I hope it is correctly formulated ...
                    1. Vita vko
                      Vita vko April 25 2018 11: 57
                      0
                      Quote: Zhelezyakin
                      directed anywhere just not towards the probable detection of a half-fly to the target

                      F-117 and all subsequent Stealths have special programs that automatically plot a route to the target, taking into account the existing radars in the area and the optimal angle to them to reduce the risk of detection.
                      1. Zhelezyakin
                        Zhelezyakin April 25 2018 12: 00
                        +3
                        Let's say! However, my remark was not about programs, but about geometry ... Or do you think that their appearance is like that, a tribute to fashion and nothing more than a coincidence?
            5. Vlad.by
              Vlad.by April 25 2018 10: 50
              0
              They would have the European Typhoon, a little Grippenov and the Japanese F-1 to the heap.
              Why is there MIG, Su, Rafahl and Lockhom limited to?
              Again, what experience will gain!
          2. PalBor
            PalBor April 24 2018 19: 51
            +4
            These fussy short-lived men with their F-22, F-35, Su-57, Rafale are so funny. Because the descendants of Shiva and Krishna have powerful vimanas!
            But seriously, the rajas may be left with a trough. Although ... the Indians on the F-35 ... maybe ... it's funny ... and even Amers don't have that much money.
            1. Lock36
              Lock36 April 24 2018 20: 18
              +8
              Yes, uzhzh ... A great country that broke off on the creation of its own automatic rifle and after 30 years of suffering decided to purchase the AK-103!
              With a 5th generation fighter, they will definitely take off! laughing
        2. Zhelezyakin
          Zhelezyakin April 25 2018 10: 23
          +3
          The FGFA program involved collaborative technology development. Americans will not sell them. And the prices for the 35th are not lower than the FGFA will be ...
      2. Hire
        Hire April 24 2018 17: 54
        +11
        Quote: BerBer
        I have a feeling that this is still a marketing move by the Americans,

        Marketing it is marketing, but a small EPR really makes it difficult to detect. Especially aircraft radars. Another thing is that low visibility is not the only and not the main sign of a 5th generation aircraft.
      3. Kerensky
        Kerensky April 24 2018 19: 02
        0
        The question is, do we really need stealth?

        So I thought so too. This is a fighter, not a strategist. The tasks are different ...
      4. Zhelezyakin
        Zhelezyakin April 25 2018 10: 21
        +5
        The entire architecture of the stealth aircraft is aimed at reducing visibility from the frontal direction. That the F-22 that the T-50, that the F-35. When the airframe is irradiated from other directions, the EPR significantly increases. And the stealth technology itself, as far as I know, imposes certain restrictions on maneuverability, for example. It seems to me that the Sukhovites, when designing a fifty kopeck piece, were guided by a decrease in visibility but not to the detriment of other important characteristics. Therefore, the whole talk of Indians about
        "Low level of stealth characteristics"
        , you should not take into account.
    3. Wolverine
      Wolverine April 24 2018 17: 12
      +11
      I support, stealth is needed for those who dream of attacking countries with weak air defense, and who have a network-centric network of radars, then any aircraft will be detected and destroyed. Over Israel from Lebanon, rockets are launched and kicked back, that is, you just need a good, inexpensive aircraft. drinks
    4. alexmach
      alexmach April 24 2018 18: 44
      +3
      Still, the Su-57 with openly located engines and with super-maneuverability due to the rotation of the nozzles should indeed be more visible in the infrared range than the F-22.

      But on the topic of the article with what they will remain - with the production of F-16 and may be with the right to purchase F-35. Apparently, the Americans are trying to cheapen a series too.
      1. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek April 25 2018 08: 23
        +1
        If you need more shock aircraft, you can hide the nozzles (F-117), if maneuverability is important, don’t hide the nozzles.
  2. skomfit
    skomfit April 24 2018 16: 33
    +9
    Beggars and moody, just recently, as Winnie the Pooh flew on balls.
    1. Sergey985
      Sergey985 April 24 2018 16: 35
      +7
      A broken trough will eventually remain.
      1. freejack
        freejack April 24 2018 17: 02
        +3
        A broken trough will eventually remain.

        Nuuu ... not really ... They are collecting some F-16s .... Only the Chinese from their J-20s
        Indians will shoot like a dash ... if, of course, the J-20 is brought to the 5th generation level.
    2. Berber
      Berber April 24 2018 16: 37
      +9
      As for the poor, it’s a finger to the sky. India is certainly a country of contrasts, but the state has money.
      1. aiden
        aiden April 25 2018 02: 22
        +1
        it was always interesting where they came from, because they didn’t have any natural resources
        1. Berber
          Berber April 25 2018 10: 30
          0
          The population is also a resource.
    3. BZTM
      BZTM April 24 2018 16: 37
      +14
      What kind of beggars are they? One of the most sought-after arms buyers around the world, along with Saudi Arabia, everyone wants them ... Fuck ... Sorry-to sell at least something from their stocks. All would be the same "insolvent" .. . wink
  3. K-50
    K-50 April 24 2018 16: 39
    +7
    Yes, buy a Su-35 in an amount of 2 to one of the fifth generation and you will be happy. The most powerful radar, the most modern missiles, the supersonic mode without afterburner, is also possible and all at a much affordable price.
    Only technologies will not be transferred anyway, at least in the near future. Well, after twenty years, everything is possible.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh April 24 2018 17: 14
      +9
      They already have a Su-30. There is not much difference with the Su-35.
      They are going to upgrade their Su-30s. Italy, it seems, will be,
      to general contractors, and Israel will supply radar-AFAR and
      another avionics. But the 5th generation of the Su-30 from this will not.
      1. Lock36
        Lock36 April 24 2018 20: 26
        +6
        Quote: voyaka uh
        They already have a Su-30. There is not much difference with the Su-35.

        In general, yes. Well, maybe with the exception of engines (power, resource, variable thrust vector), avionics, radar (Irbis E), 1 pilot, and not 2 ...
        In general, the same thing, yeah.
      2. Ironclad
        Ironclad April 25 2018 02: 07
        +1
        Who said that 22 and 35 are the fifth generation? Did they participate in real battles with 27, 30 or MiGs? NO! And how Amerekosy can advertise their chewing gum !!! Until it comes to real battles there is nothing to rant! Maneuvering characteristics 27 no one has made it! And he sees does not see ??? Maybe their PATRIOTIC and does not see!
  4. Vitaly Anisimov
    Vitaly Anisimov April 24 2018 16: 42
    0
    And the Indian government, as you know, is trying to implement the large-scale “Made in India” program.
    Made in China will be filling in Israel! And Russia will have to fight again alone .. hehe Indusov save when they start to wet them from all sides ..
    1. Strips
      Strips April 24 2018 16: 53
      +13
      Quote: MIKHAN
      To save the Hindus when they begin to wet them from all sides


      Russia has nothing more to do ..
    2. igorka357
      igorka357 April 25 2018 07: 21
      0
      Who will begin to water them, India is a nuclear power .. the truth power somehow does not sound like that, in relation to India .. laughing
  5. Ingvar0401
    Ingvar0401 April 24 2018 16: 43
    +4
    India is not yet ready to admit that the whole thing is the poor preparation of its own pilots to operate such a machine
    In fact, such a question is not correct - if they have not flown on it yet, or have flown very little, then where will the preparation come from? So raids on Indian pilots are normal ...
    1. Gene Concrete
      Gene Concrete April 24 2018 17: 22
      +9
      The average flight time for Indian pilots is the largest in the world, about 300 hours, which is even more than for pilots of the US Air Force (Americans regularly noted the highest skill of the Indians in joint exercises) and 2 times higher than for pilots of the Russian Air Force.
      .....
      Where, according to the author, could the Indians get a strong preparation for controlling a fundamentally new, experimental machine ??
  6. sevtrash
    sevtrash April 24 2018 16: 51
    +2
    As I understood earlier, they wanted to pay less, and get more technology, produce more aircraft (or even the whole) locally. This is probably the main point of disagreement. And the fact that some components, including the engine, are not equal to the level f22 / f35 - this is for sure there is. On the other hand, they are not being measured with f22, but with the Chinese.
    1. Conserp
      Conserp April 24 2018 17: 44
      +4
      Quote: sevtrash
      And the fact that some components, including the engine, are not equal to the level f22 / f35 - this is for sure there is.

      For reference, the F-22 has an outdated engine and is inferior even to the latest engines for the Su-27 in terms of performance.
      1. vic02
        vic02 April 24 2018 18: 28
        +6
        There is evidence or so, just to say. The main indicators are the ratio of traction and mass and MTBF.
        1. Conserp
          Conserp April 24 2018 18: 53
          +2
          The specific gravity is the same as ours. The resource is unknown.
          Specific fuel consumption is much worse.
          With the worst value, it’s a gluttonous miracle, in which instead of high technology, all the problems were covered with rhenium-ruthenium alloys, making it worth as much as 300 kg of gold.
          1. vic02
            vic02 April 24 2018 19: 39
            +7
            AL-41F1S thrust max / mass 8800/1608 = 5,47; F119 10500/1770 = 5,93, so 1-0 is not in our favor
          2. Hole puncher
            Hole puncher April 24 2018 19: 58
            +5
            Quote: Conserp
            The specific gravity is the same as ours. The resource is unknown.
            Specific fuel consumption is much worse.
            With the worst value, it’s a gluttonous miracle, in which instead of high technology, all the problems were covered with rhenium-ruthenium alloys, making it worth as much as 300 kg of gold.

            Typical meconium in response to a specific question. Do not own the information why then ignore your ignorance?
            1. ZVO
              ZVO April 24 2018 20: 18
              +7
              Quote: Puncher

              Typical meconium in response to a specific question. Do not own the information why then ignore your ignorance?


              ETOGES is a very famous local character.
              All the time there is real nonsense, never having anything to do with numbers. not with logic ...
              But he blames others all the time.
              The conclusion is a creature lurking in life. at the bottom. trying to somehow raise her self-esteem, expressing herself at someone else's expense ...
              1. igorka357
                igorka357 April 25 2018 07: 31
                +2
                Why insult a person like this? I advise you to familiarize yourself with the rules of the site, and be respected by the moderators carefully !!! Besides, Alex, you got into someone else’s conversation, not a single comment before that .. but there’s a point here .. Give figures and evidence, and poke his nose in them, or maybe you just love to insult people, so go out on the street .. scour a couple of three gopniks, and run home, or crawl .. from their urine and your own city. to wash off!
                1. ZVO
                  ZVO April 25 2018 12: 25
                  +2
                  Quote: igorka357
                  Why insult a person like this? I advise you to familiarize yourself with the rules of the site, and be respected by the moderators carefully !!! Besides, Alex, you got into someone else’s conversation, not a single comment before that .. but there’s a point here .. Give figures and evidence, and poke his nose in them, or maybe you just love to insult people, so go out on the street .. scour a couple of three gopniks, and run home, or crawl .. from their urine and your own city. to wash off!


                  You know, I know this character very well ....
                  Before you complain about and insult me ​​- did you read his messages?
                  Well, at least a couple of dozen?
                  In each of his messages - an insult to other participants, any thought that he does not like - is always called delirium.
                  He does not understand anything in principle - this is evident by his arrogant type of communication.
                  You know, I've been online for almost 30 years. starting with FIDO, I saw as many of these characters as you didn’t eat potatoes ...
                  So it is not necessary to dump from a sick head to a healthy one.
  7. Abalon
    Abalon April 24 2018 16: 51
    +2
    Link to the car magazine. Is it funny or not?
  8. Gray brother
    Gray brother April 24 2018 16: 51
    +3
    Even the gypsies once fled from the Indians.
  9. Stas157
    Stas157 April 24 2018 16: 51
    +2
    . streams created by the engines of the so-called first stage allow fighter radars to be detected. It is noted that on American fighter jets this problem has been largely solved with the help of the design features of "special partitions covering the surface of the engine"

    Well, make for the Indians flat nozzles and screens on them. But it seems to me that is not the reason. Most likely, the statements of the Indians are just an excuse.
  10. Sands Careers General
    Sands Careers General April 24 2018 16: 53
    +5
    They refused because the plane did not sing and did not dance, and the Russians did not bargain.
    This Indians hurt laughing

    And so their claims do not stand up to criticism. I do not like it - let them create it themselves, only India’s defense industry is rotten in terms of developing its own unique weapon, not bought or stolen.
    Let the war elephants fly laughing
    1. Strips
      Strips April 24 2018 17: 04
      +4
      Russians are not traded.


      Is it? wink
      1. Sands Careers General
        Sands Careers General April 24 2018 17: 13
        +2
        Not in this case, bargaining when it comes to the most advanced Russian aircraft.
    2. arhPavel
      arhPavel April 24 2018 17: 07
      +4
      Well .. in vain you are so about VPK tank, they invented their own. (True, he does not drive, but these are trifles)

      For me, India and China are like LG and Samsung 10-15 years ago, only now China is pushing forward not in terms of money.
      1. Sands Careers General
        Sands Careers General April 24 2018 17: 12
        +1
        And which tank did the Indians invent?
        1. Astoria
          Astoria April 24 2018 17: 24
          +4
          the one that weighs 70 tons and can’t fight further than the parade ground.
          1. Sands Careers General
            Sands Careers General April 24 2018 17: 34
            +4
            Is Arjun the size of a barn? laughing
            1. Abel
              Abel April 24 2018 22: 26
              +3
              They beg for technology, either T-72, or T-80. They began to do, they were terribly proud, but did not ride, a dog. They presented a complaint, the commission left and made a recommendation: tanks should be made with hands, and nothing else
              1. Sands Careers General
                Sands Careers General April 24 2018 23: 21
                +1
                As they say, kroilovo leads to the popalov. They imagined themselves to be airships, nothing came of it, and then they began to beg the T-90 from Russia for serious money. They washed down Bhisma, and even then managed to break down on the tank biathlon laughing
  11. arhPavel
    arhPavel April 24 2018 17: 05
    0
    It’s just bargaining, and they are putting pressure on the Indians, the same Americans don’t go to the grandmother. The scenario is simple, it’s easier to buy a pair of dozens of responsible persons with sparkles than to produce competitors.
    You can explain anything and any way, and the Indians themselves most likely do not understand why they need these machines. Partly from this, confusion and reeling.
  12. bald
    bald April 24 2018 17: 09
    0
    And if the radar grabs the engine, then what kind of stealth (invisibility) is it and where did they see it? Or do our truth cut the uterus?
  13. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh April 24 2018 17: 09
    +6
    But the Indians twitched, as the FGFA was left only
    "on paper", in sketches. No work, no prototype.
    And the Chinese-Pakistanis are already flying.
    They watched the pace of the creation of the Su-57 (12 prototypes, no new engine yet,
    no serial AFAR) .... when will the FGFA? In 20 years?
    1. stalkerwalker
      stalkerwalker April 24 2018 17: 16
      +1
      Quote: voyaka uh
      looked at the pace of the creation of Su-57 (12 prototypes, no new engine yet,
      no serial AFAR) .... when will the FGFA? In 20 years?

      What engine
      Quote: voyaka uh
      the Pakistani Chinese are already flying

      ? belay ?
      With a slingshot run?
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh April 24 2018 17: 23
        +4
        20-25 pieces Chengdu J-20 already in the Chinese
        squadrons. The Chinese quickly organize production lines - mass
        this is their horse. And sell to the Pakistanis to check in battle -
        easily
        1. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker April 24 2018 17: 25
          +4
          About the engines on Chengdu J-20 enlighten ....
          Or do the Chinese know how to copy everything?
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh April 24 2018 17: 30
            +4
            Absolutely everything is copied. If they have turbine blades of less
            a stronger alloy than the Russians, this does not mean that the engines
            do not work or have less traction. This means that their
            the engine will work less hours before overhaul and withstand
            less afterburner.
            But this drawback is offset by the number of parts and aircraft themselves.
            1. stalkerwalker
              stalkerwalker April 24 2018 17: 32
              +4
              That’s why I “love” you, Lyoshenka, because of this ability to skip off a direct question ....
              Mastak! laughing
              1. voyaka uh
                voyaka uh April 24 2018 17: 38
                +4
                I didn’t shy away from anything. What engines are on the J-20 -
                it is not clear. The first prototypes were Russian, and the serial ones
                most likely already Chinese.
                1. stalkerwalker
                  stalkerwalker April 24 2018 17: 43
                  +1
                  Sorry..... love
                  In vain I cling to you .... wassat
                  1. voyaka uh
                    voyaka uh April 24 2018 17: 50
                    +14
                    What grievances can be between the two
                    combat couch fighter pilots! drinks
              2. Sands Careers General
                Sands Careers General April 24 2018 17: 39
                +2
                So this is a national trait of the Jews, knows that it carries a blizzard, and that’s pouring water.
            2. Roma 1977
              Roma 1977 April 25 2018 08: 24
              +3
              Chinese copies of Russian engines work not just slightly less than Russian originals, but several times less. And this is a huge problem for the Chinese.
              1. voyaka uh
                voyaka uh April 25 2018 09: 39
                +2
                I will disappoint you that Russian engines also work 2-3 times
                less than american. And this is a problem for buyers (and for VKS).
                Why did the Indians start shouting: "we need a single-engine fighter!"
                The auditors considered that when the F-16 needed to send the engine to the cap. repair, the engines of the Su-30 were sent for overhaul already 2 times (two engines each). That is, 4 overhauls against one of the F-16.
                1. NN52
                  NN52 April 25 2018 09: 55
                  0
                  voyaka uh

                  And what is the resource of the engines for amers and ours? Enlighten pzhl .. (only not on the example of MiG 31 pzhl ..)
                  1. okko077
                    okko077 April 25 2018 12: 24
                    +2
                    How does he know? They read the Internet, where the same teapots put information ... They also teach others how to do it ... The head works well, but the base is blurry ...
                    Disappoint you... But he does not know that the Indians themselves repair our engines, and the resource does not compare correctly, without taking into account operational features ... He is a book theorist, such even in Israel they are not allowed to take a gun to an airplane ....
                    1. NN52
                      NN52 April 25 2018 22: 05
                      +1
                      Valery

                      Well, do not be so categorical ...
                      Give the warrior a second chance ...)))) laughing
                      Suddenly he will be taken into pilots ...)))

                      But their pilots have a very tough selection, and only their ... not newcomers ...
    2. Gene Concrete
      Gene Concrete April 24 2018 17: 27
      +1
      And even in the case of fine-tuning, the price of the su-57 / FGFA promises to be beyond good and evil, based on everything, Indians will probably buy f-35s.
      1. Abel
        Abel April 24 2018 22: 27
        0
        And will they bring it themselves?
    3. Sergey985
      Sergey985 April 24 2018 17: 27
      0
      AFAR is completing the tests, everything is fine there, the engines are in flight tests. Not so bad.
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh April 24 2018 17: 43
        +5
        Let's look at the most optimistic scenario:
        Su-57 is completely successful - engines, radar, stealth coverage -
        and went into production.
        How much can the plant do per month? 1-2 jokes. 15-20 per year.
        When will the Indians begin to receive it, if they want to buy it? .... recourse
    4. NN52
      NN52 April 24 2018 19: 58
      +1
      Alexey

      Well, why say that, to put it mildly from me ...
      Do you know what they wanted?
      What is the blizzard to drive? And not only to you, but to everyone else ///
      Look carefully at the photo ... Just a comp design for the money ... That's what they wanted, in the end, get ///
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh April 25 2018 09: 42
        +1
        And what can they do with this computer design?
        They need gliders with engines in iron. But with avionics they started
        to cope on their own.
    5. aiden
      aiden April 25 2018 02: 26
      0
      Vobze I think that this is an experimental sample. in a series he will never go
  14. Pacifist
    Pacifist April 24 2018 17: 09
    +9
    All the arguments voiced by the Indian side say that they could not agree on a complete transfer of technology, the rest is just white noise. About SU-57, the topic of the butt was already raised in an interview, somewhere at the very beginning. The conversation was about S-shaped channels and why we do not have them. Then it was said that design and technical solutions are applied that allow to reduce to zero the effect of re-reflection of the turbine impellers. What did they do there ... xs ... but I believe in our engineers' engineers, and the Hindus seem to have made a decision based on their understanding of the question "get the F-22 for the price of AN-2 and the whole technology with a kiss in a soft place."
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh April 24 2018 18: 01
      +1
      The Su-57 used the same scheme as the Americans
      on the Super Hornet, which they are trying to do semi-stealth.
      (Fortunately, his keels were initially at an angle smile )
      A type of partition was mounted in the inlet channel (air intake), which covers the turbine blades in front.
      In front, the aircraft becomes less visible to fighter radar
      the adversary.
  15. Lerych
    Lerych April 24 2018 17: 11
    0
    It is beautiful with their god when there are six hands. Has anyone tried to control life with six hands? I can imagine what a haemorrhage ... And so they control the defense. A lot of hands, and each does not know what to grab.
    1. reservist
      reservist April 24 2018 17: 43
      0
      Quote: Lerych
      It is their god there is beautiful when six hands.

      different gods they meet ... six hands - not the limit ...
    2. shahor
      shahor April 24 2018 17: 53
      +4
      Put yourself in the shoes of the Indians. The project has been going on for 11 years. Technical specifications and development plans were agreed upon by stages. Today, there is no engine, fact. Because of this, the requirements of those are not achieved. tasks. No avionics, sensors are the claims of the Indians. And most importantly, they did not receive answers to their questions. Generally. Those. money paid regularly, for what? Or did our developers think that Indians are not going anywhere? And they are gone. And they will buy in the market from others. And we lost billions. But so proud!
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker April 24 2018 18: 00
        0
        Quote: shahor
        The project goes on for 11 years. Technical specifications and development plans were agreed upon by stages.

        What is the Hindu school of aircraft manufacturing? Screwdriver assembly?
        The meaning of the project was "Sama-sama ..."
        And no one was going to give the finished glider and engine.
  16. Runoway
    Runoway April 24 2018 17: 52
    0
    Great news! Repin's painting "REACHED". A wonderful situation is developing for our market:
    -they obviously will not subscribe to the F-35, with their inherent deceit
    -It is far from the fact that the Yankees will want to sell (because of the apprehension of getting information in the Russian Federation)
    -What would not be the low stealth performance of the SU-57 (albeit conditionally true) THEY ARE EXPRESSLY BETTER THAN the J-20 (the aircraft of the likely enemy) and in everything is better in terms of performance characteristics and its basic FGFA laughing
    They have no other way, and this situation is only in the hands of our military-industrial complex ........ in anticipation of a better contract with India, unless of course it is going to protect its interests for 4+ this century
  17. Conserp
    Conserp April 24 2018 17: 55
    +2
    Firstly, all the news - Fake, another American stuffing, designed for intellectually Svidomo. There were no official statements and no.

    Secondly, the Indians really have "problems" with the FGFA project - after all, this is a separate project from the Su-57, which they themselves must partially develop. Well, with that, everything is clear, FGFA is a stillborn illusion. From the very beginning, it was clear that there would be no “special” FGFA, India would simply buy an unassembled export version of the Su-57 and, with standard dances to simulate “local production,” make screwdriver assembly as they produce the Su-30MKI.

    For Russia, this news - if confirmed - does not mean anything.
    1. Shahno
      Shahno April 24 2018 18: 03
      +1
      You can voice the fin. losses?
      1. NN52
        NN52 April 24 2018 20: 42
        0
        Shahno

        Look above ... I voiced ..
  18. APASUS
    APASUS April 24 2018 18: 01
    +2
    Hindus abandoned the FGFA project for the reason that pilots of an Indian 5th generation aircraft cannot dance in the cockpit, well, something like this ................. laughing laughing lol
  19. Runoway
    Runoway April 24 2018 18: 05
    0
    Quote: voyaka uh
    20-25 pieces Chengdu J-20 already in the Chinese

    And there will be a maximum of 50! J-20 is a card bluff in which it is unreasonable to invest, except in plywood copies for satellites. It will never be used in international exercises, let alone in a conflict, since at the first exposure everyone will not even remember about it
  20. Rostislav
    Rostislav April 24 2018 18: 10
    0
    No way the Indians do not play enough to trade, to gain the maximum and cheap.
    Forgot, to see that the avaricious pays twice, gullible three times, and stupid all the time.
  21. Berkut24
    Berkut24 April 24 2018 19: 23
    0
    And the Indian government, as you know, is trying to implement the large-scale “Made in India” program.

    ... so the Chinese have nothing to fear. They know that both the military and the government of India never leave this nirvana and will always be 2 generations behind. For nobody will ever give critical technologies to anyone.
  22. Leon68
    Leon68 April 24 2018 19: 33
    +1
    Quote: Vita VKO
    Quote: NEXUS
    that the Indians were denied the transfer of key technologies for SU-57 to their territory

    The FGFA and Su-57 projects are not the same thing. They were invited within the FGFA to develop their own technologies for the 5th generation fighter-bomber. And besides the obvious understanding that it is expensive, they were also explained to them that it takes time to create such machines.
    It is the time factor that does not suit the Indians; they have repeatedly spoken about this. For example, look at the development time of the Bramos rocket - more than 10 years! Therefore, they decided that it would be faster and cheaper to buy the technology. Moreover, if we take into account the possibility of applying the Stealth coating similar to F-35 to serial Su-30 aircraft and AFAR installations, their characteristics of the aircraft will not be inferior to the 5th generation, but most importantly they will be several times cheaper.

    I would not say so categorically that it is several times cheaper. Look at the price of export Su-35 and FGFA.
  23. The comment was deleted.
  24. Leon68
    Leon68 April 24 2018 19: 38
    0
    Quote: voyaka uh
    They already have Su-30. There is not much difference with the Su-35.
    They are going to upgrade their Su-30s. Italy, it seems, will be,
    to general contractors, and Israel will supply radar-AFAR and
    another avionics. But the 5th generation of the Su-30 from this will not.

    The difference is leveled between them only after an upgrade.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh April 24 2018 21: 51
      0
      I agree, after the upgrade.
  25. duchy
    duchy April 24 2018 19: 39
    0
    They probably wanted it: And eat the fish and sit on the “chair”. In the end: neither one nor the other. bully
  26. Hole puncher
    Hole puncher April 24 2018 19: 59
    0
    Quote: Locos
    Link to the car magazine. Is it funny or not?

    Here, and a link to Cosmopolitan ride, if only in a stream.
  27. nekromonger
    nekromonger April 24 2018 20: 12
    +1
    The Chinese have added a lot in avionics, but on the engines everything is bad there
  28. Hole puncher
    Hole puncher April 24 2018 20: 18
    +3
    The author is an outspoken layman trying to fart something on a topic in which he knows nothing
    The report says that the flows created by the engines of the so-called first stage, allow fighter radars to detect. It is noted that on American fighter jets this problem is largely solved with the help of the design features of "special partitions covering the surface of the engine", as well as with the shape of the airframe itself, partially covering the operation of the power plants.

    What the hell flows? This is his wife's flows once a month. We are talking about the air intake channels, which on the T50 are straight and the turbine blades glow like a disco ball under radar radiation, while on the Raptor and Lightning they are S shaped with a radio-absorbing coating.
    So, it is doubtful that the “low level of stealth characteristics” cannot even be compensated by other capabilities of the Su-57 at this stage. Or is India still not ready to admit that the whole thing is the poor preparation of its own pilots to operate such a machine?

    Here's a jerk, how does pilot training affect the physical parameters of an airplane glider?
    Western resources, including the same The Drive, write

    How!? How can I refer to the magazine for motorists examining the issue related to aviation? On "Hustler" would still refer or Tele7.
    But just a few weeks ago, material came out in India itself, which stated that India had no infrastructure and service segment for the F-35

    Does it have a type on FGFA?
    not to mention the fact that the United States will definitely not transfer 5th generation aircraft technology to India

    So they leave the FGFA due to the refusal to transfer technology of the 5th generation, and the fact that they are palm off on them are not.
    1. Conserp
      Conserp April 24 2018 23: 37
      +2
      Quote: Puncher
      The author is an outspoken layman trying to fart something on a topic in which he knows nothing

      He wrote an even bigger layman trying to fart something on a topic in which he does not know anything, but it is very itchy to fart on the hated "rashka".

      Quote: Puncher
      We are talking about the channels of the air intakes, which at T50 are straight and the turbine blades glow like a disco ball under radar radiation

      Actually, there are exactly the same S-shaped blockers with RPMs. But you already know something from the Svidomo cellar.

      Quote: Puncher
      Does it have a type on FGFA?

      The same as for the Su-30. Surprise.

      Quote: Puncher
      5th generation technologies, and the fact that they are being slipped by them are not.

      Wow. Su-57 is the only fighter in the world that fully meets the criteria of the fifth generation.
      But Svidomo ignoramuses suffering from flatulence, afraid to think about it.
  29. pepel
    pepel April 24 2018 20: 38
    0
    Hindus want to get two in one - an airplane and an invisibility hat. laughing
  30. estidea
    estidea April 24 2018 21: 42
    0
    and the Chinese are not considered because China is not a partner for India?
  31. Evgenii Xolod
    Evgenii Xolod April 24 2018 21: 44
    +1
    Well, so they demanded full documentation, after which they were sent on foot to the country of Kama Sutra because Secret however. And then they gave the boat a ride, they began to roll amers))))))))
  32. estidea
    estidea April 24 2018 21: 47
    0
    it seems like the Indians will just buy planes ... maybe it’s more correct for them. the creation of aircraft is several industries plus scientific support, a design school ... it is doubtful that at the present stage the Indians will pull, especially when there is China in the market of cheap and simpler aircraft.
  33. Abel
    Abel April 24 2018 22: 09
    0
    Question to India: do you need a combat aircraft or an invisible aircraft?
  34. Victor Osipov
    Victor Osipov April 24 2018 22: 14
    +1
    I have nothing to do with aviation, but as an engineer I can say that the fighter emits infrared radiation not from the engine, but from exhaust gases! The advantage of our locator over Amer’s, more than two times - like 350-400 km, and Amer will see only 150 km, if I remember correctly, if I made a mistake, then not by much! I am surprised by the military of India and its strategic "hints", the population has nowhere to go? Invisible aircraft do not exist, but crooks-traders, in bulk!
  35. Compasure
    Compasure April 24 2018 23: 44
    0
    Quote: bogart047
    there is no perfect stealth at all. But everyone needs a good plane.

    I would add the situation with the F-117 shot down 125th complex in Serbia.
    "Sorry, we did not know that he is invisible" (c)
  36. Compasure
    Compasure April 24 2018 23: 58
    0
    Quote: Victor Osipov
    I have nothing to do with aviation, but as an engineer I can say that the fighter emits infrared radiation not from the engine, but from exhaust gases! The advantage of our locator over Amer’s, more than two times - like 350-400 km, and Amer will see only 150 km, if I remember correctly, if I made a mistake, then not by much! I am surprised by the military of India and its strategic "hints", the population has nowhere to go? Invisible aircraft do not exist, but crooks-traders, in bulk!

    This is when compared with the radar on the F-22 (about 200 km), but on the F-35 there is a new, more advanced AFAR
  37. iggrimnir
    iggrimnir April 25 2018 00: 31
    0
    Yes, there is no "stealth", partially reduce the visibility, yes, but again - in what perspective, an awkward maneuver and you are at a glance. Well, ours generally see them as a lamp in a dark room, only with guidance there are minor difficulties, well, everyone knows everything here. Just shitty Indians, in general, joyful shitty, they want everything for free, etc.
    And to criticize our planes - something I did not see breakthrough technologies from Indian scientists ...
  38. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I April 25 2018 00: 41
    +2
    India: "We need stealth so that he, like a butterfly with wings byak-byak ...

    Then get the F-35 from us ... at a discount! He just "byak-byak" and does!
  39. tTshka
    tTshka April 25 2018 03: 32
    0
    They apparently watched the old Disney cartoon, and believed that elephants can fly ... and they will fly on elephants)))
  40. Wolka
    Wolka April 25 2018 05: 19
    0
    avaricious pays twice, well, let them stay with their noses ...
  41. pafegosoff
    pafegosoff April 25 2018 06: 27
    +2
    And India would not go dear Gandhi: barefoot and in a sheet ...
  42. Altona
    Altona April 25 2018 07: 14
    +1
    So they still fight or stealth?
  43. Ru_Na
    Ru_Na April 25 2018 08: 47
    +1
    To criticize the Hindu masters, now let them try to create a 5th generation aircraft with characteristics that suit them, and we will see what they can do.
  44. Afrikinych
    Afrikinych April 26 2018 18: 00
    0
    Well, they don’t like Russian planes, they don’t like American conditions, make your own carpet rugs (judging by fairy tales, they had everything that Indians needed)!
  45. Cellulitis
    Cellulitis April 27 2018 18: 12
    0
    To be friends with India - do not respect yourself, Sorry, BUT, the name is personal experience in communicating and dealing with representatives of this nation, I can say that the more cunning and at the same time "obviously cunning" ones - that is lying so that everyone sees it, I have not met people! My opinion is that you can’t be friends with them, they must be used like the Papuans, if you give them technology, they won’t even understand what they have in their hands, but they will stupidly sell them for a penny to the West - I’m 100% sure!