Military Review

The mystery of the German losses in World War II. Part I. About Muller-Hillebrand

243
The magnitude of the German losses in WWII (and their ratio to the losses of the USSR) is a rather complicated topic. Otherwise, it would have long been dismantled and closed, but the number of publications on it is only growing. Of particular interest to the topic arose after a series of screams on it in the media, that is, emotional statements (they piled them up with corpses, they put their own 10 on one German), who have dubious, if not outright false grounds.




A fundamental source on the topic is “Land Army of Germany 1933-1945”, author Muller-Gillebrand (MG). The section on the losses of the German armed forces goes there with 700 pages. M-H first indicates that the population of Germany (with Austria and the Sudetes) before the war was 80,6 million. Including 24,6 million men aged from 16 to 65 years. For the period 01.06.1939 - 30.04.1945, 17,9 million were called up to the German armed forces (WASH).

A number of historians consider: since MH indicates the time from 1 in July to 1939, then 17,9 million is mobilized precisely after 01.06.39. Therefore, it is necessary to add to this figure mobilized to 01.06.1939 - 3,2 million. Total is 21,1 million - so many people were mobilized in the WASH during the Second World War. This figure, in particular, is indicated by Krivosheev (more precisely, the group of authors under the leadership of Krivosheev) in the well-known work “Loss of the Armed Forces of the USSR in Wars ...”

The M-D itself of such an addition (17,9 million + 3,2 million) does not, although it feeds the material in such a way that the addition operation begs for it. Many researchers criticize the addition, indicating that the specified MH of 17,9 million is the total number mobilized, it also contains those who have already been mobilized for July 1939. In foreign sources, the addition is unknown, everywhere indicated 18 million conscripted in WASH.

Most likely, the addition is really wrong, and 21 million mobilized - the figure is too high. By 1942, in Germany there was 17,2 million 17-45 men of years (conscription contingent). Of these, 8,7 million has been mobilized, 5,1 million has been exempted from mobilization, 2,8 million has been declared unfit for combat service (figures from Germany in the Second World War (1939 — 1945), by Blair V. and others). That is, there were very few people left in Germany for the army. The Germans had to revise the grounds for declaring them unfit for health; in particular, the notorious battalions for soldiers with aural and gastric diseases appeared. Scratched exempted from mobilization - whether the military economy will not do without them. Spread the age to be mobilized. Mobilized a considerable number of women. Mobilized as a lot of foreigners.
The mystery of the German losses in World War II. Part I. About Muller-Hillebrand


In general, the Germans could find 21 million for the army. But people were needed not only in the actual armed forces.




Table of M-H. It can be seen that a huge number of people were in the civilian composition of the WASH and paramilitary organizations; already in 1941, they had 900 000 people - this is before the appearance of foreigners. In 1944, this category already included 2,3 million people (together with the military itself, it turns out 12,07 million). In addition, 1944 appeared folkshturm 1,5 million. Plus, the organization Todt (German construction battalion) - 1,5 million people in June 1944 (Germans are 200 000). Plus the police: 1944 - 573 000 people, of which 323 000 in Germany. Plus, the functionaries of the Nazi party - 343 000 in 1944. Plus hundreds of thousands of people in the administration of the occupied territories, security service units (SD), secret police (Gestapo), the general forces of the SS. And, of course, a significant number of men of military age should have remained in the economy, it was not possible to replace everyone with foreigners and women. People on all of this and 21 million in the WASH would clearly not be enough, despite all the tricks.

So, the figure M-D - about 18 million mobilized in WASH - this is exactly the total number. Another thing - how true is this figure? Speaking about the German losses, MG indicated that not all of them could be taken into account, and in the last months of the war, accounting for losses was fundamentally incomplete, since the general collapse had begun, affecting the accounting system. But the same applies to the accounting of mobilized - the centralized collection of information about them in recent months has been very difficult. How fully accounted mobilization 1945 th? Then the personnel of the Folkshturm, Hitler Youth and other militarized organizations often infused into the Wehrmacht formations right at the front; in the front-line cities, workers were mobilized, previously not subject to conscription (the plants still stopped).




M-H himself, directly below the table of mobilized people, writes: “Numerical data can be considered as reliable for the entire period, with the exception of the last five months of the war.” It is necessary to amend the M-D figure for the underestimation of those mobilized. At least, not about 18 million, but more than 18 million

Some publicists believe that 18 million people indicated by MG are mobilized from Germany. Foreigners are not included in this number. The M-G filing form contributes to this assumption: first, it gives the population of Germany by the beginning of the war (80,6 million), and then the number of mobilized - 17,9 million. In what limits of Germany does he not specify the mobilized. Consequently, foreigners must be added to 18 million.

It is known that WASH were replenished not only by the natives of Germany (within the boundaries of 1939 d). After the outbreak of war, the territory and population of Germany increased. Alsace with Lorraine, Luxembourg, western Poland, and Slovenia were annexed. At the disposal of the Nazis were additional conscription forces. Also, mobilization was carried out among Germans-Folskdeutsche * of Yugoslavia, Hungary, Romania and partially the USSR (the number of Folskdeutsche on 1938 according to German estimates: in Poland - 1,2 million, Romania - 0,4 million, Hungary - 0,6 million, Yugoslavia - 0,55 million, USSR - 1,15 million (in the occupied area were approximately 300 000)). The SS troops received a mass of scum from almost all of Europe. In the WASH entered hundreds of thousands of citizens of the USSR.

In some publications, the scale of the non-German set is somewhat exaggerated. An excerpt for example: “Next are the Alsatians, whose total number in these years was determined in 1,6 million, and in which the Germans could mobilize men of the order of 300-400, thousand people, with total mobilization of men. About another 100 thousand in the same way could give Luxembourg, included in the Reich. " Immediately there is no, 100 000 - that's about half of the total population of Luxembourg, if you look at the sources, the Germans mobilized 10-12 000 people there. 130 000 was mobilized in Alsace, there are sources for this too. In total, the number of 1939s mobilized outside the borders of Germany is estimated at about 2 million. Total, the total is obtained 20 million

However, this thesis: MH considered only 1939 mobilized within the borders of Germany, and they should be added to those mobilized outside these boundaries - this is only an assumption. And, most likely, wrong. The famous German historian R. Overmans seems to bring some clarity to the question. His data on the mobilized with the distribution at the place of mobilization:

1) Germany, post-war borders: 11.813.000 mobilized - 3.546.000 killed from them.
2) Former East German territories: 2.525.000 mobilized - 910000 killed.
3) Foreigners of German origin from the annexed territories (Polish regions, the Sudetes, Memel): 588000 mobilized - 206000 killed.
4) Austria: 1.306.000 mobilized - 261000 killed.
5) Total big Germany: 16.232.000 mobilized - 4.932.000 killed.
6) Foreigners of German origin from Eastern Europe (Poland, Hungary, Romania, Yugoslavia): 846000 mobilized - 332000 killed.
7) Alsace-Lorraine: mobilized 136000 - killed 30000.
8) Others (from Western Europe): 86000 mobilized - 33000 killed.
Total: 17.300.000 mobilized - 5.318.000 killed. Mobilized are considered only in the Wehrmacht, killed - and in the Wehrmacht and the SS troops.

Overmans does not take into account SS mobilized into the troops (900 000 people), since it is not known for certain how many of them are Germans and how many are foreigners. That is, it seems like Overmans considers only soldiers of German origin. It is unclear here with the Poles and Slovenes living in the territories included in Germany, as well as Czechs from the protectorate. Polish historians write that 375 000 Poles were mobilized in WASH (about them you can google "Polacy w Wehrmachtu"). Perhaps the Poles are in the 846 000 people from the graph (6), the German population of the areas indicated in the graph was not so large as to give so many soldiers. Moreover, part of the Germans of Hungary and Romania were mobilized in the army of these countries, and not in the army of Germany.

It is also unclear with the number of troops mobilized in the SS. Overmans gives the number to 900 000 people. By adding it to the figure mobilized in the Wehrmacht, we get 18,2 million - so much, according to Overmans, everything was mobilized in WASH. But, there are other numbers; for March 1945 there were 800 000 people in the SS troops, therefore during the war more were mobilized in them - up to 1,2-1,4 million.

Overmans also does not include in the total number of mobilized (and, respectively, German losses) natives of the USSR - from Vlasovites to Balts. According to MG: “the total number of“ Eastern troops ”(without“ Xivi ”) at the end of 1943 reached 370 000 people”. Further, their number has increased.



The Spaniards who passed through the Wehrmacht around 50 000 people were also not taken into account.

So, to the figure of Overmans (18,2 million) it is necessary to add all those unaccounted for - as a result of underreporting mobilized both in the Wehrmacht and the SS troops, plus the natives of the USSR, etc. In total, it can be taken: during the war 19 million people were mobilized in the All-Ukraine Supreme Council. Less definitely not much more unlikely.

19 million is mobilized in WASH. Civilian (including hivi), militarized organizations, different types of police, etc. are counted separately. But with the deterioration of the situation on the fronts, they too were drawn into hostilities. Known about the many battalions Folkshturm and police abandoned in battle. Another example: the labor service (detachments of teenagers who are serving their time in Germany) - 400 anti-aircraft batteries were transferred to it. From the film “Bunker” I remember the fanaticism of the teenage calculation of anti-aircraft guns in the battles for Berlin. Whole women and girls were included in the German air defense services.



Krivosheev complains that people from civilian volunteers (including Khivi) and paramilitary organizations often fought like real soldiers, but their losses are counted as civilian casualties. Well, that's just fine; from our side, the losses of the partisans, the paramilitary improvisations of 1941, such as fighter squads and the militia, are not counted as military ones. Even allocated to Krivosheev 0,5 million designed, but not enrolled in the army, it is necessary, in my opinion, attributed to the loss of the civilian population of the USSR.

The incoming portion of the balance of the German armed forces is approximately fixed. Now the expenditure part. MG gives such a WASH loss from 1 September 1939 to 30 April 1945:



MH delivers these figures as reliable and official. More precisely, this is the official report of the department of accounting for losses at OKW. Accounting for losses in Germany was conducted through two channels: 1) troops sent reports of losses; 2) each called-up was entered by the mobilization authorities of Germany into the file of roll-call accounting, then it was noted in these files - what happened to the called-up. The general report is based on these two accounting systems: reports from the troops are summed up with a refinement of the roll-over records for the card indexes.

But below the MG writes about accounting deficiencies. The reports from the troops about the losses contained "a number of erroneous information"; “By the time of sending the report ... it was not always possible to collect complete and reliable information about the number of those killed”; “In the conditions of a fast-moving, maneuvering war ... especially during periods of troop retreat, there was, of course, some delay in the submission of reports or the partial absence of such reports for many days as a result of the current combat situation or damage and the failure of communications.”

That is, the reports from the troops were incomplete. Card files were also not a reliable accounting tool - a lot of them burned in the fire of bombardments, much of the card files from the eastern regions of Germany were lost during the expulsion of the German population from there. Call data on the eastern regions are not preserved - and in fact mobilized of them suffered the greatest losses. As MG writes: “The losses in the war of the population of the eastern German provinces — East Prussia, Pomerania, Brandenburg, Silesia — were higher in percentage terms ... because here in the East, the active troops were replenished with people from the eastern regions of Germany.”

That is, the figures of losses M-G are reliable, official, but not complete. M-H himself directly writes about it. Quote: “Among those killed in the category of missing people, equal to one-two or even more than millions of people, one would add an estimated number of killed equal to 2330 thousand people, and then the total number of killed soldiers would be a figure between 3,3 and 4,5 million people. " That is, it is not known in fact - how many were missing, how many of them died; in general, the death toll may be more than indicated in the report - up to 4,5 million (here the estimate of German losses for M-D coincides with their estimate for Krivosheev).

We are reducing the balance: 19 million was mobilized in the WASH, 7 million were dropped out of them (2,2 million were killed, 2,8 million were missing, 2,3 million were crippled, as reported by М-Г). The question is: where did the rest go? There was 19 million fighters, the loss of 7 million - remains 12 million

There are publicists that give the figures of M-D as the real losses of Germany, not paying attention to the incredible discrepancy between the arrival and the loss and not paying attention even to the reservations of M-D himself. This is a lying trash. But if you type in the search for "Germany's losses in WWII" - then this garbage is highlighted in the first lines. In general, someone crammed a lot of similar garbage into wikireadings.

In Germany itself questioned these figures. Although not immediately, but years after 50 years after their appearance. Prior to that, there was a request for another, broken commanders wrote memoirs: how they successfully attacked with the ratio of 1 to 4 in favor of the Soviet troops, successfully defended with the ratio of 1 to 7, and had to retreat with the ratio of 1 to 15. The great losses of the German troops here did not fit in any way.

There is an opinion about German pedantry, by virtue of which they must accurately calculate their losses. No, not calculated. The reasons here are quite objective: reports from the troops about the losses simply could not be complete, and in recent months, even more so. Not a significant part of the card files of the names was kept.

The Germans were also unable to count the number of dead from the bombings. Estimates differ not by percentages, but by times. It is also not established - how many Germans died during the expulsion of the German population from the Czech Republic, Poland, Yugoslavia and the former eastern provinces of Germany. The range of estimates - from 0,5 million to 2,5 million. It is not even known how many women in the WASH mobilized, “the number has not been established” - quoted from the German collection “Results of the Second World War. Conclusions of the vanquished. " So the opinion that the Germans, by their pedantic nature, accurately calculated everything, is swept aside.

In general, a direct statistical calculation of the losses of the German army is impossible. There are simply no reliable sources for this.
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  1. YELLOWSTONE
    YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 05: 58
    +6
    The USSR counted its losses to a man, and pedantic Germans could not?
    losses in the chaos of recent weeks and days can be calculated retroactively
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 April 22 2018 07: 58
      +5
      Total: 17.300.000 mobilized - 5.318.000 killed. Mobilized are considered only in the Wehrmacht, killed - and in the Wehrmacht and the SS troops.


      Nnda killed just 5 million? And according to data in Soviet times, they thought so
      Germans killed 13 million
      -our-20 million

      And according to already Wikipedia
      -losses of the USSR -27 million
      -Losses of Germany 7 million

      https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Потери_во_Второй_ми
      flat_war

      those. the number of our dead is always increasing, and the number of dead Germans is decreasing. Such is the tendency of world history. Is this true?
      1. YELLOWSTONE
        YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 09: 03
        +2
        Soviet times were different and civil then included in the number of losses, then no
        in general, the Germans are growing, the Soviets are declining, some have already agreed to the point that the Germans have lost more, especially with the Allies
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 April 22 2018 09: 05
          +1
          Quote: YELLOWSTONE
          Soviet times were different and civil then included in the number of losses, then no
          in general, the Germans are growing, the Soviets are declining, some have already agreed to the point that the Germans have lost more, especially with the Allies

          from which it is clear that the death toll of the Germans is growing?
          1. YELLOWSTONE
            YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 09: 14
            +2
            in publications, especially in English and German, until recently there were 3,5 million losses on all fronts
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 April 22 2018 09: 18
              +1
              Quote: YELLOWSTONE
              in publications, especially in English and German, until recently there were 3,5 million losses on all fronts

              in which publications?
              1. YELLOWSTONE
                YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 09: 34
                +1
                in almost all, on the same Wikipedia, changed recently to foreign languages ​​under Russian recently
                1. Bar1
                  Bar1 April 22 2018 11: 27
                  +1
                  Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                  in almost all, on the same Wikipedia, changed recently to foreign languages ​​under Russian recently

                  Damn, I'm asking for a link ...
                  1. YELLOWSTONE
                    YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 11: 39
                    +1
                    you type in google "german losses in ww2", then the same in German and after spending half a day you study a lot of links for different years about this theme
                    you can still see the history of page edits on Wikipedia by your link, maybe there’s left
                    in the paper press you can still see
          2. YELLOWSTONE
            YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 12: 03
            +1
            Quote: Bar1
            from which it is clear that the death toll of the Germans is growing?

            but the glory of 1974 is argued right on this page
            then others rewrite others after him for the author of the article, and such an outfit is entered back into Wikipedia from which others then take it again.
          3. zenion
            zenion April 22 2018 13: 03
            +19
            If this goes further, in 20 years the number of Germans killed will be reduced to such an amount that it turns out that the USSR and the USA fought among themselves, and the Germans did not even come to war, got lost in the forests and swamps and still roam there.
            1. YELLOWSTONE
              YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 13: 30
              +2
              Slava1974 will turn out that the USSR generally defeated everyone, and almost without loss, how did the Arabs wave yes
        2. EvilLion
          EvilLion April 22 2018 20: 12
          +3
          Considering the results of the war in the form of the complete defeat of Germany, which is very rare in the history of wars, wars end, as a rule, with a compromise world, military losses more than the USSR’s are quite possible. The common ones on all fronts can reach 10 million. There is no longer any way where to take so many soldiers.
          1. YELLOWSTONE
            YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 22: 56
            0
            another adherent of the smaller losses of the USSR
            she ended in such a world, only with the West
            most of Germany did not fall under the USSR
        3. Conserp
          Conserp 1 May 2018 00: 04
          +1
          Quote: YELLOWSTONE
          some have already agreed to the fact that the Germans lost more, especially with the Allies

          This is a fact, if you do not include non-combatants and do not juggle with numbers.

          Our losses are 7 million killed and 4 million prisoners (of which approximately half were exterminated in concentration camps).

          German losses - at least 10 million killed, more than 8 million prisoners and a couple more millions fled.
          1. YELLOWSTONE
            YELLOWSTONE 1 May 2018 00: 29
            -1
            Quote: Conserp
            This is a fact, if you do not include non-combatants and do not juggle with numbers.

            at the beginning of the Berlin operation, less than 2,4 German (without allies) losses killed and missing (including logged) according to OKV
            during it they lost less than 240 thousand, the rest fled west
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_casualties_i
            n_World_War_II
            1. Conserp
              Conserp 1 May 2018 00: 35
              +3
              Quote: YELLOWSTONE
              according to OKV which did not juggle with digits

              OKV did not juggle with numbers! How can you think of it! The Nazis never lie, they always need to take a word!

              Only correctly executed corpses with tokens buried can be considered killed! And if someone was torn to pieces or retreated, lost - well, OKV wouldn’t conceive without a correctly executed corpse? OKV can't lie!

              Just think, all agonizing wounded were ordered to be demobilized - well, so the order is an order, control and accounting, ordnung, these are civilian losses, OKV does not lie!

              I wonder if you’re not recovering at your swastikas there yet?
              1. YELLOWSTONE
                YELLOWSTONE 1 May 2018 00: 46
                0
                it isn’t, but you’ve already reached this point - it was written with missing persons, some of which were captured, this was for the Eastern Front, even 2,2 to Berlin, and 3,5 commissaries of the wounded and sick
                1. YELLOWSTONE
                  YELLOWSTONE 1 May 2018 01: 04
                  0
                  why would German losses have to be more?
                  1. Conserp
                    Conserp 1 May 2018 09: 20
                    +5
                    Fans of the Nazis are not embarrassed that the rest of the 20 million mobilized Germans have gone somewhere.

                    Fans of the Nazis are not embarrassed that the Germans began to drive millions of old people and children to the front - apparently from an excess of living and healthy soldiers - and then they completely lost the war.

                    Fans of the Nazis are so pleased to repeat the mantra about "corpses filled up."
                    1. YELLOWSTONE
                      YELLOWSTONE 1 May 2018 12: 36
                      0
                      the Germans went west all who could
                      nobody drove to the front, the front itself came where these children and the elderly lived

                      answer, why would German losses have to be more? for what reasons or circumstances?
                      1. Conserp
                        Conserp 1 May 2018 12: 55
                        +2
                        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                        the Germans went west all who could

                        Could miserable remnants at the end of the war and this number is known.

                        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                        why would German losses have to be more?
                        They came to the USSR and were defeated. The defeated always has big losses. Do you need any other reasons?

                        Do you Nazi apologists with logic and arithmetic tight?
                    2. YELLOWSTONE
                      YELLOWSTONE 1 May 2018 14: 36
                      0
                      Well, bring him, if you know.
                      they left the whole armies to the Americans, the pity remnants remained captive to the USSR in Berlin, in a small cauldron nearby (it was about him), and in Courland from where it was far to the west to escape.
                      when they arrived the USSR was defeated to Moscow, Leningrad, the Volga, and Transcaucasia. then they were squeezed back for a long time, with a local defeat only in Stalingrad.
                      Nazi apologists are trying to turn everything upside down so that next time Russians wash themselves with the same blood

                      once again - why would German losses have to be greater? for what reasons or circumstances? strategic is no longer on the Soviet side, as with the issue of tactics and weapons?
                      1. Conserp
                        Conserp 1 May 2018 15: 42
                        +2
                        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                        Well, bring him, if you know.

                        The total number of all German prisoners and capitulated German troops is 8 million. No one hides these figures.

                        The rest of the 20+ million flew to Antarctica, yeah.

                        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                        why would German losses have to be more?

                        But how is it even possible to lose the war without large losses? Completely exhaust the mobilization resource without large losses?

                        Interesting among you, Reich fans, are brain twists.
                    3. YELLOWSTONE
                      YELLOWSTONE 1 May 2018 16: 45
                      0
                      how many of them surrendered to the Soviet Union?
                      the rest of the civilians were dressed and dispersed to their homes or who sheltered

                      once again
                      Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                      once again - why would German losses have to be greater? for what reasons or circumstances? strategic is no longer on the Soviet side, toak with a question of tactics and weapons?
                    4. YELLOWSTONE
                      YELLOWSTONE 1 May 2018 18: 04
                      -1
                      Quote: Conserp
                      But how is it even possible to lose the war without large losses? Completely exhaust the mobilization resource without large losses?

                      where did you get it again that the mob resource was exhausted? the elderly were called to Volkssturm because the front came to their homes, the youths volunteered, did you hear about the Pyrrhic victory?
                      all who remained alive together with the army then went west or fled home, where their Americans and the British did not disarm even at first for the war with the USSR
                      are you still going to school the answer about tactics and weapons will be when?
                      1. Conserp
                        Conserp 1 May 2018 18: 39
                        +4
                        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                        where did you get it again that the mob resource was exhausted? the elderly were called to the Volkssturm because the front came to their homes, the youths volunteered,

                        Why are you lying?

                        All orders on the Reich to review the draft ages and so on are perfectly preserved and well known.

                        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                        all who remained alive together with the army then went west or fled home

                        ~ 10 million fled?

                        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                        are you still going to school

                        From shkoloty and I hear. You do not even know how to formulate questions.

                        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                        the answer about tactics and weapons will be when?
                        Bah, did you ask a question? Where?

                        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                        why would German losses have to be more? for what reasons or circumstances? strategic is no longer on the Soviet side, as with the issue of tactics and weapons?

                        That was the question, yes?

                        The overwhelming superiority in strategy, tactics, weapons and the number of the Soviet army since 1943 was not, or what?

                        But nothing that the same USSR completely defeated Japan in 2 weeks, having lost only one division of soldiers?

                        Yes, it is clear that you are not being taught history in the OUN district revered sect.
                    5. YELLOWSTONE
                      YELLOWSTONE 1 May 2018 19: 34
                      -1
                      How can you call without orders so that the mobresource for the enemy does not go away?
                      at home nearby.
                      you questions about tactics and weapons were formulated in this thread four times in a row
                      Japan is not Germany, panzerfausts, khanomags and a jagdpanther did not have
                      in less time in April-May many times more died in Germany

                      all the same how old are you? I suspect that there is very little, because in the USSR she never dared to claim that the Germans lost more.
                      1. Conserp
                        Conserp 1 May 2018 22: 16
                        0
                        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                        you questions about tactics and weapons were formulated in this thread four times in a row

                        Why are you lying so poorly?
                    6. YELLOWSTONE
                      YELLOWSTONE 1 May 2018 22: 42
                      0
                      I know why you do it, or because of what
      2. EvilLion
        EvilLion April 22 2018 20: 09
        +1
        27 Millions of the USSR could not lose with all the losses of the civilian population. This is nonsense and masochism.

        And learn to distinguish between combat losses and civilian casualties.
        1. victor50
          victor50 April 25 2018 12: 00
          0
          Quote: EvilLion
          27 Millions of the USSR could not lose with all the losses of the civilian population. This is nonsense and masochism.
          And learn to distinguish combat losses from civilian casualties

          Sorry, what are your arguments? I am not ironic, I ask. For myself for many years I can not come to certain conclusions, I listen to any arguments. But I immediately object: taking into account the civilian population, it certainly can. I will not give arguments, it will not work too long, simply and shortly.
        2. Conserp
          Conserp 1 May 2018 11: 50
          +2
          Quote: EvilLion
          27 Millions of the USSR could not lose with all the losses of the civilian population.

          In total, in the USSR during the war years died 37 million including natural mortality.
          Mortality - 25 million.
          There are still ~ 2-3 million demographic losses due to unborn children.

          Military losses - 7 million killed and 4 million prisoners (of which one and a half million were killed). Here everything is calculated quite accurately, after digitizing all the archives no "one million there - one million here."

          But it is impossible to accurately assess the loss of civilian population - the Germans did not keep records of civilians killed.

          A simple example - the Germans conditionally killed a 90-year-old grandmother. Due to her old age, she would not have survived until 1945. In reality, the Germans killed her, and formally she fits into "natural mortality." How can this be taken into account? No way.
          1. YELLOWSTONE
            YELLOWSTONE 1 May 2018 12: 39
            0
            Ministry of Defense accurate to a person gives out 8,6 killed ultimately not 7
            1. Conserp
              Conserp 1 May 2018 12: 58
              +3
              The figure of 8,6 million deaths includes prisoners killed in concentration camps. What I specifically wrote about.

              Swastikas interfere with reading?
              1. YELLOWSTONE
                YELLOWSTONE 1 May 2018 14: 28
                0
                are missing persons included in this number?
                1. Conserp
                  Conserp 1 May 2018 15: 44
                  0
                  Of course. This number includes the missing, who died from sores, who were shot for crimes, and even the Vlasovites who died for Reich.
                  1. Conserp
                    Conserp 2 May 2018 00: 35
                    +3
                    5227 thousand were killed and died from wounds on the battlefield.
                    Died from wounds in hospitals - 1103 thousand.
                    Non-combat losses - 555 thousand
                    Missing, did not return from captivity - 1785 thousand.

                    Total loss of payroll - 8670 thousand, of which combat - about 6500 thousand.
      3. 135lm
        135lm April 28 2018 20: 33
        0
        And besides the Germans, no one fought with us anymore? Why are Germans always remembered? And in general, who considered the German losses in Berlin and König? Piled all in a heap and buried
        1. Conserp
          Conserp 1 May 2018 13: 39
          +3
          The Germans generally considered only properly formed corpses with whole tokens as dead.

          Something was lost - not dead. The battlefield remained behind the enemy - no one was killed at all.

          The seriously wounded Germans immediately demobilized, and they died as civilians.

          "Accounting and order with German pedantry" (TM)

          And then all this can be “honestly” written on Wikipedia and “oh-oh, they filled up the corpses”.

          At the same time, the Germans alone were shaved off 20 million, and only into the troops ... Where they disappeared should remain a mystery, a highlight. But they did not die, no. They hid under the ice of Antarctica.
        2. YELLOWSTONE
          YELLOWSTONE 1 May 2018 14: 34
          0
          nonsense at both
          missing a separate article, all the rest are scattered over others including even just wounded
          we found out who died and disappeared after the war, many Germans in the USSR did not settle even among the prisoners
          1. jhltyjyjctw
            jhltyjyjctw 19 November 2018 12: 58
            0
            Quote: YELLOWSTONE
            nonsense at both
            missing a separate article, all the rest are scattered over others including even just wounded
            we found out who died and disappeared after the war, many Germans in the USSR did not settle even among the prisoners

            Missing persons are irretrievable losses, just like prisoners, killed, who died from wounds and at the stage of sanitary evacuation. So this is one article ...
    2. avt
      avt April 22 2018 08: 57
      +17
      Quote: YELLOWSTONE
      losses in the chaos of recent weeks and days can be calculated retroactively

      Through hindsight ... and count. In general, the sinful man got acquainted with the Muller-Hildebrand directory in the SOVIET edition, having bought it in the Military Book, it seems, there was such a store on the Garden Ring. So it’s interesting - besides the fact that the names of the SS divisions from Natsik volunteers were not bashfully mentioned there The Soviet suburbs didn’t argue with the particularly small print with him. Regarding the article and the calculation of losses, well, yes, they have some kind of cunning there: Firstly, the MG type considers only their own type of native Reichites, quietly putting them out of the brackets accompanying euroopeics and ,, candidates "in them; Secondly - neatly hides irretrievable sanitary losses under" returned to industry and economy from the Wehrmacht ", and there, if you look closely, it doesn’t run sour. Well, whoever is alive and who is dead is no longer a matter for the general to consider - it is no longer personnel. Civil spacers bully So if you carefully study this guidebook, well, taking into account the human factor (which general is glad to admit defeat, naturally Volkogonov’s team doesn’t count), the work is informative and quite useful for familiarization. Well, the article is a plus, quite an addition to the case.
      1. YELLOWSTONE
        YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 09: 46
        0
        it all can be mutual ... request
        in the case, this is what veterans say, for example, or those who were under occupation
        the author in the article shuffles someone else's deck of cards with speculation
        1. avt
          avt April 22 2018 09: 59
          +7
          Quote: YELLOWSTONE
          in the case, this is what veterans say, for example, or those who were under occupation

          bully Veterans, for example, often talked about the fact that the Germans are all completely with machine guns - they can’t raise their heads, but they are with only three rulers. So what ? View the layout of weapons in the infantry of the Wehrmacht reluctance?
          Quote: YELLOWSTONE
          the author in the article shuffles someone else's deck of cards with speculation

          The author works with sources quite accessible to you, well, if you refute the hunt. But he does not throw slogans in the comments for in general and about anything in particular.
          1. YELLOWSTONE
            YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 11: 41
            +1
            that is, veterans are lying and you have read yourself sources and not thinking about the different nuances of their smarter?
            this is not a slogan, this is a question.
            1. Cannonball
              Cannonball April 22 2018 12: 52
              +10
              Veterans do not know much. Only what they themselves saw. The rest is speculation, myths, tales ...
              I speak because I myself am a veteran.
              1. YELLOWSTONE
                YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 13: 23
                0
                Is that what they saw and heard no more than others?
                1. Cannonball
                  Cannonball April 22 2018 22: 13
                  +8
                  And there is. The perception of an eyewitness is always subjective. For the generals, the truth of the war is one, for the summer with captains - another, for ordinary with sergeants - the third. Each veteran individually saw, read, knows, not so much, if we take a comprehensive aspect. Most of the information available to veterans, for one reason or another, is precisely information "from other people's words."
                  Even official documents like a military journal often contain information of dubious reliability (I had the opportunity to see how and how such magazines and other documents are filled).
                  1. YELLOWSTONE
                    YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 22: 26
                    0
                    You were a veteran, excuse me, where?
                    1. Cannonball
                      Cannonball April 22 2018 22: 56
                      +7
                      Yes, for over 30 years, as a veteran. He was where NATO is now pretending to fight terrorism.

                      1. YELLOWSTONE
                        YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 23: 56
                        0
                        and you are not responsible for your words that you saw and heard there when you participated in the database? or maybe it just didn't happen?
            2. avt
              avt April 22 2018 13: 33
              +5
              Quote: YELLOWSTONE
              i.e

              To teach fools only to spoil and it’s not
              slogan,
              and popular wisdom in the form of a saying, time-tested and confirmed by the present. Especially if you don’t even want to work as a search engine in search of full-time weapons of Wehrmacht infantry units.
              1. YELLOWSTONE
                YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 13: 37
                0
                that is, it is clear that it is better to leave it as it is. yes
                1. avt
                  avt April 22 2018 14: 53
                  +5
                  Quote: YELLOWSTONE
                  that is, it is clear that it is better to leave it as it is.

                  Mitrofanushek according to Fonvizin? Yes . For it is said
                  Do not give sanctuary to dogs and do not throw your pearls before pigs (Matt. 7: 6).
                  1. YELLOWSTONE
                    YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 15: 40
                    +1
                    decided to warn just in case?
                    In general, the standard weapons of assault units and conventional ones in terms of automatic weapons differed among the Germans back in WWI, but what if? wassat
            3. EvilLion
              EvilLion April 22 2018 20: 15
              +4
              The veteran was lying with his wet pants under the fire of the 1 MG-34, and thought everyone had automatic weapons there. German veterans will tell the same thing, especially when they really encountered an abundance of SVT, then "the Russians are fully armed with light machine guns."
              1. YELLOWSTONE
                YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 21: 52
                +1
                "one more",
                about SVT was the opposite
                1. EvilLion
                  EvilLion April 22 2018 22: 16
                  +4
                  What is the opposite? The massive use of SVT took place during the fighting in the Tula region, simply because the vintars were coming directly from a nearby factory. In fear, the eyes are so large that the enemy’s fire exposure is inflated many times, with the non-obvious effect of his fire on the enemy.

                  Or are we going to consider the German fairy tales about how Russian machine gunners continued to fire from buildings completely covered by fire? Well, the descriptions of the attacks of the Red Army look like some kind of epic battle, in fact it turns out that half a dozen tanks were knocked out.
                  1. YELLOWSTONE
                    YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 22: 28
                    0
                    9/10 hit the Germans.
    3. Cannonball
      Cannonball April 22 2018 10: 20
      +7
      No, people in the USSR were also not considered a person, there is even confusion in millions of casualties. Even now, figures are cited from 14 to 50 million total losses, most of which are civilians.
      I think that traitors, collaborators, Vlasovites were also among them, although they fought on the other side. After all, before the war they lived in the USSR.
      1. YELLOWSTONE
        YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 11: 43
        0
        Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation gave military losses to a man, according to what data did they consider them, according to their own or Soviet?
        1. Bask
          Bask April 22 2018 12: 15
          +2
          Here: https://warspot.ru/11695-stalinskie-sokoly-kotory
          e-nikuda-ne-uletali, a person is considering which mess was on June 22, 1941, taking into account the loss of aircraft, and this is only on the first day of the war. I think the same thing was taking into account the loss of personnel.
          1. YELLOWSTONE
            YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 12: 36
            0
            personnel are counted at roll call, there can be no such mess with him
            1. Cannonball
              Cannonball April 22 2018 12: 54
              +3
              Well, he answered. There was a man, he was registered, and then he died - they killed, wounded, fell ill, fell under the tribunal, went missing, was captured - all one loss.
              1. YELLOWSTONE
                YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 13: 25
                +1
                at the roll call did not announce - yes
                and in the fields generally they usually collect medallions
                1. Bask
                  Bask April 22 2018 16: 18
                  +3
                  But not everyone wore these same medallions. All historians claim that in the initial period of the war, the Soviet documents about the losses (and not only the personnel) are a complete mess.
                  1. YELLOWSTONE
                    YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 22: 19
                    0
                    avt, with EvilLion?
                2. Cannonball
                  Cannonball April 22 2018 23: 04
                  +2
                  For example, we did not have medallions.
                  As for the collection of information, each platoon, each company, each battery, etc. daily submits to the headquarters of the jualion (division) a summary of the presence and condition of the personnel, the number of absent (departed) and the reason for absence. Together with her, a summary and ammunition consumption is compiled. At headquarters, this information is summarized and transmitted to a higher headquarters.
            2. Bask
              Bask April 22 2018 16: 15
              +1
              Well, and where is the roll call? Take the trouble to read the article by reference and then comment. The point is how the documents were filled out, in what form they were presented to the higher authorities. The article just says that thanks to the records of the commissar of the regiment, you can understand how what losses the regiment suffered. According to reports to the division headquarters and above, on the contrary, it is not clear where the nth number of aircraft went.
              1. YELLOWSTONE
                YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 22: 20
                0
                despite the fact that he then appears or does not appear with his documents to another
            3. EvilLion
              EvilLion April 22 2018 22: 24
              +7
              Yeah, for example, 900k people in the 41th at Krivosheyev belong to connections with which in the 41th there was no connection at all. Units sometimes disappeared by divisions, and then people could emerge in various places and even calmly fall into the dead a couple of times, although they still rattle with medals.

              After the battle, a person can stupidly find himself in the location of a neighboring regiment, and he will be credited there, because it is not always possible to send him back. And then in a week he will die And he will be listed as missing according to some sources, according to others killed. And you can find out only through cross-comparisons of the mass of documents, which are not the fact that they were preserved.

              The main task during the war is to create as much mess as possible for the enemy.
              1. YELLOWSTONE
                YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 22: 31
                0
                that is, could anyone come and be called a Red Army? and no deserters were looking for? this did not always happen even on June 22nd.
                1. Cannonball
                  Cannonball April 22 2018 23: 10
                  +1
                  The one who came and was called the Red Army, as a rule, was checked by the Specialists. However, this was not always possible to do. Someone died before the end of the inquiry.
                  1. YELLOWSTONE
                    YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 23: 59
                    0
                    someone even for the case, the paper clips in the documents did not rust and or the nails in the boots were of the wrong system lol
                    1. Cannonball
                      Cannonball April 23 2018 22: 32
                      +1
                      By no means, everything happens in war - shelling, bombing, surprise attack, when everyone is "under arms" ...
                      1. YELLOWSTONE
                        YELLOWSTONE April 24 2018 00: 32
                        0
                        How could this affect these items?
                2. Okolotochny
                  Okolotochny April 28 2018 11: 17
                  +1
                  What kind of stiffness is this? My grandfather was held captive for 3 years, officially went missing, in the winter of the 45th escape, 3rd shock, fighting for Berlin. So, in the Book of Memory of the Krasnodar Territory, he is still listed as missing without news. Roll call ... After your "Roll call" only Lavrov’s words as an answer.
                  1. YELLOWSTONE
                    YELLOWSTONE April 28 2018 12: 32
                    0
                    where did this book get the data from?
                    1. Okolotochny
                      Okolotochny April 28 2018 12: 34
                      +1
                      Imagine from official sources. What is they explaining to you here - in a peaceful life there is enough mess, but in war?
                      1. YELLOWSTONE
                        YELLOWSTONE April 28 2018 12: 36
                        0
                        from which official?
                        then he was listed as missing?
              2. Conserp
                Conserp 1 May 2018 22: 31
                0
                Quote: EvilLion
                this can only be ascertained through cross-comparisons of the mass of documents

                This is exactly what they did, having fully digitized all the archives.

                Krivosheev’s figures are confirmed with a slight correction, the error is negligible.
        2. Cannonball
          Cannonball April 22 2018 12: 50
          +1
          Well, consider it yourself, a man was called up at the Soviet military registration and enlistment office. Then he served in the Red Army. Then he was captured, surrounded or ran away. How to count it? Naturally on appeal.
          1. YELLOWSTONE
            YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 13: 27
            0
            not only on appeal, on the dead, missing
            1. Cannonball
              Cannonball April 22 2018 22: 16
              +1
              Before being killed or missing, they were listed as soldiers of the Red Army, NKVD, etc. That is, it was the Red Army, the NKVD, etc. that suffered losses. Hence the account of their losses.
              1. YELLOWSTONE
                YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 22: 32
                0
                still citizens of the USSR, they were listed in passport offices, or what was then
                1. Cannonball
                  Cannonball April 22 2018 23: 18
                  +2
                  My grandfather died in the 42nd near Rzhev.
                  So, in the report on the losses of the division where he fought, the name, surname, patronymic, date of birth, rank, unit, reason for retirement (killed), approximate time and place of death, approximate place of primary burial and military enlistment office, from where he was called up, are indicated.
    4. stalkerwalker
      stalkerwalker April 22 2018 18: 19
      +3
      A fundamental source on the topic is “German Army 1933-1945,” by Müller-Gillebrand.

      There is no "extreme" ....
      Muller-Hillebrand's work is "recognized" almost canonical. Although there have been, there are and will be attempts to recount the losses of Germany. And an example of this is this article.
      You can break your spears for a long time, but considering the question of Germany’s losses in World War II, it should be understood that in the final it all comes down to the question of trust in the source. And so - in a vicious circle, as in a joke about Abramovich and money in a nightstand. Or remember Tatishchev with his links to manuscripts that no one after him saw. And the reason is simple - war, fire, archives burned down.
      If we attach to the study already published books of memoirs of WWII participants, then here we get to the list of the very most aces of the Panzervaffen, who shot according to their conviction, more than a hundred Soviet self-propelled guns and tanks each for the 1,5-2 years of the war, of which they, according to their own According to him, they were at the forefront and took part in the battles of 5-8 months.
      And there are our "veterans", according to the recollections of one of them, near Leningrad, according to their arithmetic calculations, more than 1 million soldiers and officers of the Red Army were killed.
  2. Olgovich
    Olgovich April 22 2018 06: 16
    +4
    Interestingly, the percentage of Germans killed from the former eastern lands of Germany is much higher than the percentage of deaths from the main territory of Germany.

    Amazing figure fought from Austria: every FIFTH Austrian (from infant to old man) passed through the front! Such an innocent occupied Austria. Such a percentage was only among the Russian people.

    Well, the delusional figure of the dead Germans of 2 million in the MG is refuted by the same German Overmans, giving it twice as much ...
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 06: 58
      0
      how exactly does he refute it? and for what purpose?
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich April 23 2018 06: 37
        0
        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
        how exactly does he refute it?

        The image of his research.
        Quote: YELLOWSTONE
        and for what purpose?

        belay
        1. YELLOWSTONE
          YELLOWSTONE April 23 2018 08: 18
          0
          yes here glory1974 has studied even better
          Of course he did this for free?
    2. EvilLion
      EvilLion April 22 2018 20: 17
      +2
      He gives 2.7kk of those killed before 1.1.1945 that there is nothing, because the war had already been completely blown up by that time and the boys were being driven to the front, there were no big losses in the 45, because there wasn’t much to wet was giving up.
      1. YELLOWSTONE
        YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 22: 22
        0
        the front itself came to the boys
  3. Monarchist
    Monarchist April 22 2018 07: 53
    +1
    Quote: YELLOWSTONE
    The USSR counted its losses to a man, and pedantic Germans could not?
    losses in the chaos of recent weeks and days can be calculated retroactively

    Do you want to say that Russian is more pedant than the Germans?
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 08: 56
      0
      in my opinion the author somehow hints at it
      1. Yaroslav 2
        April 22 2018 13: 21
        +4
        As an author I’ll answer: I don’t hint at anything like that. I didn’t talk about the losses of the USSR at all, especially I didn’t say that they were precisely calculated. This is also a difficult topic.
        1. YELLOWSTONE
          YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 13: 32
          0
          now hinting that they are counted inaccurately or uncounted at all?
  4. Cartalon
    Cartalon April 22 2018 08: 01
    0
    If there is a figure mobilized back and forth, but there is, we subtract from it those who surrendered in surrender, here are the losses, not demographic, but from the point of view of warfare.
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 08: 59
      0
      there is still a census before the war and there is a census after the war
      and forget that Germany was divided and the majority put on civilian or fled to the west
      1. Cartalon
        Cartalon April 22 2018 09: 01
        0
        The census is a demographic loss, and we are about the loss of the sun
        1. YELLOWSTONE
          YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 09: 15
          +1
          in the census, all categories of citizens by name and district, not only the total number
          1. Cartalon
            Cartalon April 22 2018 10: 31
            +1
            Do you want to trace the fate of every German in WWII according to the census?
            1. YELLOWSTONE
              YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 11: 44
              0
              not fate but its approximate outcome
              1. Barabashka 68
                Barabashka 68 April 22 2018 15: 50
                +1
                There is material where demography is studied. But this is not about that. We did not destroy the prisoners deliberately, as the Germans did, but they are taken into account in our losses. Hence the difference in losses of about one and a half million. This is together with the allies of the Germans.
                1. YELLOWSTONE
                  YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 15: 58
                  0
                  not from here and not so
                  for example, the 1941 disaster did not look like a defense, and then the Germans were gradually squeezed out for several years, and the defenders suffered smaller losses
                  1. Barabashka 68
                    Barabashka 68 April 22 2018 17: 38
                    +2
                    It may not look like a defense to you, but France Hitler bent over for 40 days. And I think that if he didn’t stop Guderian, there would be a meat grinder in Dunkirk.
                    You forget the defeat near Moscow at 41.
                    I forgot to add: the loss of one to three does not always work, especially with a total defeat.
                    1. YELLOWSTONE
                      YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 22: 24
                      0
                      all the more from the border to Moscow for 5 months of rout with the encirclement, and not a single one near Moscow.
                  2. Svidetel 45
                    Svidetel 45 April 27 2018 23: 58
                    +1
                    Nonsense is complete, ours also defended themselves in 41-42 years, and the losses were much greater.
                    1. YELLOWSTONE
                      YELLOWSTONE April 28 2018 07: 20
                      0
                      Is this to the fact that in 1943 on the Dnieper the Germans should have more losses, or when crossing the Oder?
  5. Glory1974
    Glory1974 April 22 2018 09: 49
    +5
    Almost the entire male population was driven out of the Germans. Therefore, they were forced to call all ages, announced total mobilization, called on women, allies, and generally everyone they could. The USSR did not have a numerical superiority in personnel, there was no superior in the quality and quantity of equipment. Why, in such circumstances, Germany lost ? The answer is obvious, because the USSR inflicted more losses on the enemy.
    It cannot be that the Germans lost fewer people and equipment and still lose.
    1. Curious
      Curious April 22 2018 10: 57
      +2
      "Almost the entire male population was knocked out of the Germans. "
      Germany restored the pre-war population in 1950, and the USSR in 1955.
      In 1959, in the USSR, on 1000 women, there were 641 men, in Germany - 869.
      If you follow your "highly professional" logic, men were brought to Germany from other countries.
      1. Glory1974
        Glory1974 April 22 2018 12: 14
        +10
        Germany restored the pre-war population in 1950, and the USSR in 1955.

        So be it. But this has an indirect relation to combat losses. Maybe in Germany the birth rate was higher. Moreover, the Red Army did not pursue a policy of genocide of the German population, did not surround and burn villages with local residents, did not destroy prisoners in droves, etc. Yes, the total loss of life is greater, in terms of military losses, parity.
        If you follow your "highly professional" logic, men were brought to Germany from other countries.

        By my logic and combat experience, it is not possible to lose people and equipment in 10 times less and at the same time lose. In world history there was a situation when the commander won, but at the same time lost as much as the defeated. The name of this Pyrrhic victory became a household name.
        I’m not a loss specialist, but when they tell me that the Germans were well trained, using excellent equipment, they killed 10 Soviet soldiers and lost 1, burnt tanks and planes in bursts, and at the same time valiantly reached Berlin, drafted old men and women into the army and children, I say this, that it happened because we killed them so much that it seemed a little.
        1. EvilLion
          EvilLion April 22 2018 20: 19
          0
          At a comparable technical level, in Vietnam, the United States lost much less than the Vietnamese, but they lost the war.
          1. Svidetel 45
            Svidetel 45 April 28 2018 00: 01
            0
            They just forgot to calculate the losses and add to the losses of the Americans the losses of the South Vietnamese troops.
      2. alstr
        alstr April 22 2018 12: 33
        +3
        Correctly. But the reasons for this longer recovery are that so many children have died.
        It is enough to recall how many awarded children under 16 we had (and many of them posthumously).
      3. chenia
        chenia April 22 2018 14: 57
        +8
        Quote: Curious
        Germany restored the pre-war population in 1950, and the USSR in 1955.


        Germany restored its pre-war strength by 1970 / (and now it has only surpassed it by 12 million) / And this despite the fact that after the war all Germans fled to Germany from Europe or were expelled /

        Austria still has not reached its pre-war strength /

        Well, what shall we say?
        1. kan123
          kan123 April 22 2018 16: 12
          +1
          Let's say that Mr. Sovramshi. What else can I say? He sticks some cooler than moonshine, to clean German shoes, to kiss them - they do not understand that, Russians are the greatest nation on the planet. That Germany is an ordinary country, - they swam, we know, - that there is no paradise anywhere - the same thing everywhere, - beat like a fish on ice until you die. Only uv. Ukrainians do not understand this, that the time of worship has passed, (the 90s) the time has come for repentance, and not the Germans, but the Americans will repent there. A strange zigzag of logic - it would seem - what do Ukrainians and Americans have to do with it - let them worship each other.
          1. chenia
            chenia April 22 2018 16: 29
            0
            Quote: kan123
            A strange zigzag of logic - it would seem - with what the Ukrainians and Americans have to do - let them worship each other.


            Shock verbal diarrhea / Wikipedia has read / Turn on the brains / 64 million / in 1946 (minus 16 million / and this despite the fact that all Germans from Europe fled to Germany) /

            Further, the population grew only (almost) in Germany and the GDR in place / and until 1970 why? Well, a single German citizenship (double count)
      4. Yaroslav 2
        April 22 2018 16: 44
        +3
        Quote: Curious
        Germany restored the pre-war population in 1950,


        - How is the migration of millions of Germans to Germany from abroad taken into account here? That is, a quick recovery is not due to the fact that it has lost less, but due to (largely) migrants.
        Quote: Curious
        In 1959, in the USSR, on 1000 women, there were 641 men, in Germany - 869.


        In Germany, the figure needs to be clarified. Less is she.
    2. Bask
      Bask April 22 2018 12: 25
      0
      Well then, following your logic, the USSR lost in the 41st. The Germans didn’t have female IAPs and BAPs, there were no women snipers either. Children from the Soviet side also took part in the war. So what? Following your reasoning, the Red Army suffered such losses, that the army took everyone in a row?
      1. Glory1974
        Glory1974 April 22 2018 12: 29
        +6
        Following your reasoning, the Red Army suffered such losses that they took everyone into the army?

        This is following your statements.
        I argue that the Germans announced a total mobilization and rowed into the army of everyone in a row from hopelessness, because everyone else was killed. They created battalions from sick Germans, concentrating in parts of the "ventricles" and other cripples.
        In the USSR there was no total mobilization.
        1. Curious
          Curious April 22 2018 14: 17
          +2
          "According to my logic and combat experience ..."
          The whole problem is that your logic and statements in this matter have absolutely no value due to the fact that you are an amateur in this matter and do not own absolutely no information. except that one. what's online.
          Regarding combat experience. How many military campaigns of the scale of the war between states have you personally led? Is the spirit of Stalin or Frederick II communicating with us?
          In addition, you demonstrate sheer ignorance in terms of concepts such as "They created battalions from sick Germans, concentrating in parts of the" ventricles "and other cripples." Look at the composition of the people's militia, which was created in the USSR at critical moments in 1941 - 1942.
          1. Barabashka 68
            Barabashka 68 April 22 2018 15: 58
            +2
            And what, in the USSR there were CHILDREN'S anti-tank teams or volksturm where everyone who came to hand forcibly drove?
            1. Bask
              Bask April 22 2018 16: 31
              0
              Do you think that the Germans didn’t have their children brainwashed by propaganda and who didn’t want to fight for the Reich? Or they drove everyone to the Volkssturm with kicks? Imagine they also had their patriots ready to bite to the end.
          2. Glory1974
            Glory1974 April 22 2018 19: 12
            +3
            The whole problem is that your logic and statements in this matter have absolutely no value due to the fact that you are an amateur

            Let me be an amateur. But everything is in order with logic. They are trying to explain to me that I went out and two gopniks attacked me. they beat me, knocked out my teeth, broke my ribs, broke my leg and arm, and then surrendered to me. If I tell you such a story, you will say, "It doesn’t happen like that." I agree with you, and finally we will come to a consensus.
            How many military campaigns of the scale of the war between states have you personally led? Is the spirit of Stalin or Frederick II communicating with us?

            Smiled wink but then I thought, and suddenly the relocation of souls - right? Is always
            felt a great potential in himself.
            demonstrate clear ignorance in terms of such concepts as "They created battalions from sick Germans, concentrating in parts of the" ventricles "and other cripples." View the composition of the militia created in the USSR

            It's not about the militia, and not about the Volkssturm and the Hitler Youth. Namely, about the personnel units of the Wehrmacht, into which, after the announcement of the total mobilization, they began to recruit patients who had not previously been subject to draft. And in order to make it easier to maintain their combat readiness, the units were formed by patients with one diagnosis.
            1. Curious
              Curious April 22 2018 20: 14
              0
              "But the logic is fine."
              You seem to flatter yourself. The population of Germany in 1941 was 70 million, the USSR - 195 million.
              Can you divide one into another, or help?
              1. Glory1974
                Glory1974 April 22 2018 20: 18
                +3
                The population of Germany in 1941, 70 million, the USSR - 195 million

                And the fact that about 41 million people fell under the occupation in 70, and you can add up half of Europe to Germany?
                1. Curious
                  Curious April 22 2018 21: 53
                  0
                  That directly June 22 immediately came under the occupation of a third of the population of the USSR? And remained in the occupation until May 9, 1945? You understand, because the establishment of actual losses does not serve to discredit the feat of the Soviet people during the Great Patriotic War. This is to remind people that war is a terrible event. Be that as it may, but historical memory is dulled. War begins to be perceived as something abstract. A huge stratum of couch warriors has already formed, who paint on the net how they will take prisoners and sprats without getting up from the couch. That's what you need to think about. But if your logic leads you in the other direction - this is your choice. Good luck on the road.
              2. Yaroslav 2
                April 22 2018 21: 20
                +2
                Quote: Curious
                The population of Germany in 1941, 70 million

                - The population of Germany in 1941 is more than 100 million (with annexed territories, which also mobilized into the German army)
        2. Bask
          Bask April 22 2018 16: 26
          0
          You were modestly silent about the women's regiments. Since the 41st year, you have mobilized everyone and anyone who is not in the army for the plant. Or is it not a total mobilization? The Germans did not work with the Germans in the factories, and they began to take women to factories from 43- year. The Germans drove Kalicha, but the women did not fight in their trenches. I didn’t say anything, but just asked you a question.
          1. Barabashka 68
            Barabashka 68 April 22 2018 17: 31
            +2
            They already wrote to you that there was no total mobilization in the Union; moreover, getting to the front was not so simple. The women's regiments were equipped with volunteers, but they tried to prevent children from killing themselves, unlike the Fuhrer. About women, it’s even more interesting, I don’t remember anymore, but you ask when in Europe women got equal rights with men.)
            And here about the sad: the kids not only worked for Germany, but were also used as donors, or as soap.
            1. Bask
              Bask April 22 2018 17: 58
              0
              But why women, even volunteers at the front, if there are enough men? Yes, well, children weren’t allowed? Take an interest in how many children died at the front. What does gender equality have to do with it? In my opinion, everything is clear, men are fighting, women are sitting at home. Yeah , only Natsik children didn’t let their own soap. And again about the female units. The sense from them was much less than from the male ones. And I write to you again that the USSR mobilized all its forces for the war. Unlike the German, all Soviet plants We switched to a different work schedule (a 16-hour working day, no holidays, no days off). The slogan “Everything for the front, everything for victory” is not a figment of fantasies, but reality. Or do you think mobilization is just an army? And infrastructure ? The USSR only won this war, because it was precisely it that mobilized all the forces, involved all and children as well.
              1. Barabashka 68
                Barabashka 68 April 22 2018 18: 35
                +1
                Andrei, we are talking about total mobilization, but it was not there. The fact that the children went to the factories, so the fathers left to fight, and families need to be fed, so they went. Women went to the front because they felt their responsibility for the country, they were brought up like that. If you could understand it, your flag would still be red, like mine.
                And the children were both Germanic and other "civilized" countries, such as Holland.
                I'm generally curious: how does it occur to you to compare the mobilization of the Union with Germany. How many concentration camps smoked near industrial centers, how many people were taken by the Germans to work in Germany?
                1. Bask
                  Bask April 22 2018 20: 32
                  0
                  That's exactly what the fathers left to fight, and the guys stood on the drawers at the machine tools. This is the mobilization of all forces and means. About the women's shelves, I understand everything perfectly and in no way am I joking about it. It's just that for me a woman is MOM, not soldier. How many girls were killed, but these are all unborn children.
                  I do not compare anything. The fact is, the Union threw all its strength into victory, and Germany, before the age of 43, allowed itself to turn a blind eye to obvious things. You do not need to make me who I am not, I just wrote about what is stupid saying, “The Germans rowed everyone in the 45th row” and at the same time shy to keep quiet about the women and children at war. My opinion is that women fought in the Red Army does not mean that all the men are over. Like the Germans, if the Volkssturm, that means there was no one to fight.
                  1. EvilLion
                    EvilLion April 22 2018 21: 57
                    +4
                    Man, it didn’t occur to you that in the USSR there were too few urban population and a healthy adult guy from a collective farm was unsuitable for working at a factory, so he went to the front, there were also many specialists from factories, since war is not so much shooting as engineering, someone should repair tanks, so their sons went to the places of city workers.

                    And Germany could allow herself a lot of things, for example, forcing the same French prisoners, healthy guys to work, only the USSR came to the call of the 17-year-olds in the summer of the 1944 and only to the rear, and the German boys drove under the tanks. It was allowed that the men were over.
                    1. Bask
                      Bask April 23 2018 07: 12
                      +1
                      The German boys drove to the front in March of the 45th. And I think if the USSR were in such a situation as Germany in the 45th, it would be the same. And I don’t understand what the Volkssturm and Hitler Youth are pushing for? No one really knows how much was put under a gun, and even more so how many died, and how many stupidly fled to their homes. The appeal of all is not an indicator of big losses. I recall that the landver (the same Volkssturm) appeared during the Napoleonic Wars and not because of the huge losses of Prussia .
                  2. plebs
                    plebs April 23 2018 02: 25
                    +1
                    How many girls were killed, but these are all unborn children.
                    Ukrainian-Baltic scumbags in different Khatyn. And what did the Wehrmacht, when retreating, need to be reminded?
                    1. Bask
                      Bask April 23 2018 07: 03
                      +1
                      And why this question? Have I written somewhere that the Wehrmacht in the occupied territory was distributing gingerbread cookies?
                      1. plebs
                        plebs April 23 2018 23: 50
                        +1
                        And why this question? Have I written somewhere that the Wehrmacht in the occupied territory was distributing gingerbread cookies?
                        And this is about losses. Tell me, at least one German village burned by the Red Army, along with the inhabitants. During the retreat, the Nazis tried to steal from the abandoned territories everything that was moving and destroy what could not move. No bombing of England can be compared with what the Nazis left in the occupied territories of the USSR. Could many recruits be recruited there? The Germans and their henchmen of our children were shot, hung and burned alive, and for this they received medals. And the Red Army, German children, fed porridge from their boilers. That is why, we have more than 20 million dead, against the German 9-10 million.
          2. Glory1974
            Glory1974 April 22 2018 19: 26
            +2
            You modestly kept silent about women's shelves

            Not. I am proud of our female pilots. They, owning the profession of a pilot, did not go to the collective farm to dig potatoes, or sew footcloths, but went to a place where they could be more useful
            Since the 41 year, the USSR has mobilized everyone and anyone who is not in the army at the factory. Or is this not a total mobilization?

            Yes, this is mobilization. Planned Called by age, by category. Those who were not subject to mobilization received a “reservation” or a white ticket if their health was poor. Some of the students were forbidden to call and forcibly sent from the front to study, for example, students of nuclear physicists. 43 of the year. Martial law was declared, labor service was introduced.
            And this is not the total mobilization of the 43 of the year in Germany, and not the supertotal 44 of the year.
            The Germans did not work with the Germans in factories, and they began to take women to factories from the 43 year.

            They began to take to the factory, because all the men were forced to send to the front. Children at the Fritz in the Hitler Youth fought and Volkssturm, were in the labor army, maybe they worked in factories. Women in the trenches at the Fritz fought, but not at the front. about a million women were drafted into the army for various posts in the air defense, communications, etc.
            1. Bask
              Bask April 22 2018 20: 58
              +1
              Oh, but for you, total mobilization is when they are only taken into the army? And I thought that total mobilization is when all the forces are left to achieve one goal — to win. All men were not taken, for example, in the aviation industry, specialists were not taken into the army. They worked in areas that do not require high qualifications, as in America. Children in factories in Germany did not work. Here is the link: https: //warspot.ru/3556-volchata-fyurera,п
              take an interest in how the German children fought, one defense of the Berlin Piehelsdorf bridge is worth what, but this does not mean that the Germans drove all the children to slaughter and the fact that the Germans began to arm the elderly and adolescents is not an indicator of large losses of the Wehrmacht, but only a consequence of that the Red Army was advancing from the east, and the Allies from the west. Germany was initially inferior in the number of men of draft age not only to the USSR, but also to America.
              1. EvilLion
                EvilLion April 22 2018 21: 58
                0
                Apparently, fighting for children is better than working ...
                1. Bask
                  Bask April 23 2018 07: 13
                  0
                  Apparently brain propaganda washes well.
                  1. Barabashka 68
                    Barabashka 68 April 23 2018 12: 04
                    0
                    Andrei, you can’t compare the son of a regiment with a combat unit of children. In Germany there was a CHILD labor service.
                    As for the exhaustion of reserves, it is worth seeing who defended Berlin. If they had enough troops, then why were they absent from the main line?
                    1. Bask
                      Bask April 25 2018 08: 06
                      0
                      Please indicate the link where the child labor service is described in an evidence-based and reasonable manner. Above, I provided a link to an article where it says that the little ones were taken out of town where they helped farmers, and the teenagers dug trenches, but nowhere is there any indication of the work of children in factories.
                      Take an interest in Isaev’s book “Berlin-45.” In it, he explains the reasons that there were so few trained troops in Berlin. One of the reasons is the offensive of the 1st Belorussian Front through the Zeelovsky Heights, where personnel units were concentrated with military experience. Some historians accuse Zhukov of allegedly erroneous actions, saying that he would go the other way around the heights and would not have to gnaw through the German defenses on the Zeelovsky heights. But if this assault were not, the 9th Germans army would have moved to Berlin . And look who defended Berlin. Well, with the allies, too, had to fight.
                      1. Barabashka 68
                        Barabashka 68 April 25 2018 16: 55
                        0
                        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Имперская_служба_тр
                        oud
                        The right thing, you yourself do not want this.
      2. kan123
        kan123 April 22 2018 16: 20
        0
        Russia, from the time of the 30s, it was still the post of the RI country — all “brought up” by his tsar, His Excellency Nikolai Sanych, the initiator of two stupid wars, he had two world wars, one in Asia and the second in the west. Therefore, following our logic, we still have the same - a gray sky above our heads, Soviet apartments. Children dvoeshniki (not all) - sad sowing. pezazh. And what you have is what matters. I look at the Ukrainian circus, and I think who will stop it. Russia will definitely not do this. And with Latvians too, and with Georgians. And with Asia. In general, wait until it reaches us - we are stupid.
        It's just that no one forgives scammers - that's the problem. Who will believe you if you throw? It’s cheaper to let you in the circle of the imperialists, and to regret, from my suburbs, before the American tanks go along it.
    3. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh April 22 2018 17: 54
      +2
      "Almost the entire male population was knocked out of the Germans" ///

      I would be glad if so, but alas ...
      Most German soldiers after all the criminal
      Nazi raids on all countries safely returned home.
      For example, in Germany they gathered until the 80s
      veterans of the "heavy tank battalions" (in which the Tigers).
      Without going into details, are these Tigers good or not -
      not in this case. And in the fact that participating in ALL heavy battles before
      the last days of the war, most of the tankers survived and lived
      to old age. This is an indicator.
      There are pictures of 46-47 years of surrendering Berlin. Under Soviet military control.
      Near the opened pubs on the streets - full of healthy young men, Germans 20-30. Like ex-soldiers.
      1. EvilLion
        EvilLion April 22 2018 22: 02
        +4
        Well, in the USSR, it survived the war of 50 percent from direct participants, but rather closer to 60. Or do you think war is a sentence? In fact, the chance to survive there, even in a total war, is not lower than 50%.

        And yes, the crews of the heavy tank battalions died as if less often than infantrymen in the trench.

        Near the opened pubs on the streets - full of healthy young men, Germans 20-30. Like ex-soldiers.


        We opened one pub in the quarter, cheers, everyone is running to drink. Both workers and those who escaped bullets. What's next? You still say that in the USSR in the postwar years, men disappeared from the streets.
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh April 22 2018 22: 34
          +1
          I answered the phrase: "almost the entire male population was knocked out of the Germans." No more.
        2. YELLOWSTONE
          YELLOWSTONE April 24 2018 00: 34
          0
          probably that's why there were several women per man
      2. plebs
        plebs April 24 2018 00: 07
        +1
        Near the opened pubs on the streets - full of healthy young men, Germans 20-30. Like ex-soldiers.
        Interestingly, many of them were submarine sailors.
        For example, in Germany they gathered until the 80s
        veterans of the "heavy tank battalions" (in which the Tigers). This is an indicator.
        Not an indicator. Probably no more people passed through the "heavy tank battalions" than through the German submarine fleet, and the losses were incomparable.
      3. rkkasa xnumx
        rkkasa xnumx April 24 2018 20: 08
        0
        Quote: voyaka uh
        Most German soldiers after all the criminal
        Nazi raids on all countries safely returned home.
        For example, in Germany they gathered until the 80s
        veterans of the "heavy tank battalions" (in which the Tigers).
        Without going into details, are these Tigers good or not -
        not in this case. And in the fact that participating in ALL heavy battles before
        the last days of the war, most of the tankers survived

        But most of them survived, do you have data? And for tankers of other types of tanks, for gunners, pilots, infantry?
        Mb also according to our data do you have, for comparison?
        Quote: voyaka uh
        There are pictures of 46-47 years of surrendering Berlin. Under Soviet military control.
        Near the opened pubs on the streets - full of healthy young men, Germans 20-30. Like ex-soldiers.

        Judging by the photo of 47 years of German losses? Really?
        1. YELLOWSTONE
          YELLOWSTONE April 24 2018 23: 45
          0
          in two years, they all matured immediately and without military service?
  6. Curious
    Curious April 22 2018 10: 22
    +2
    There are such topics that it is better not to touch upon if you cannot introduce new facts into them, moreover, documented facts.
    The theme of the losses of the USSR and Germany in the Great Patriotic War is precisely the one in which the dilettante, whose documentary base is the Internet, is better off.
    In all recent serious works on this topic, it is stated that the question of human losses during the war years has not been studied enough and continues to be sharply debated.
    The history of the issue is well described in the article Evolution of Official Russian Historiography
    about the losses of the USSR and Germany in the Great Patriotic War.
    1. Curious
      Curious April 22 2018 10: 36
      0
      "The evolution of official Russian historiography
      about the losses of the USSR and Germany in the Great Patriotic War. "
      http://kubanmemo.ru/library/Kropachev01/evolution
      . Php
      1. YELLOWSTONE
        YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 11: 46
        0
        in addition to what is available, there is one on both sides, its and its change over time is also worth considering.
    2. Glory1974
      Glory1974 April 22 2018 12: 16
      0
      the question of human losses during the war years has not been studied enough and continues to remain highly debated.

      I agree partially.
      http://liewar.ru/o-nashikh-poteryakh/177-nemetski
      e-poteri-vo-vtoroj-mirovoj-vojne.html
      Please read
    3. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh April 22 2018 16: 29
      +4
      The research task of recent years is completely transparent:
      reduce combat losses on the Soviet-German front to 1: 1
      for all the time of the war. When they come as a result of all manipulations to
      this conceived result - calm down.
      1. EvilLion
        EvilLion April 22 2018 22: 08
        +1
        And also show that the Germans did not touch the Jews.
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh April 22 2018 22: 35
          +2
          Such trends also exist, but not in Russia.
  7. nivander
    nivander April 22 2018 12: 35
    +6
    Muller-Gillebrand at least 50 pages with foam at the company broadcast about 2800000 dead soldier soldiers in the period 1939-45, and then with one paragraph "... 4000000 gold soldiers were buried in the USSR alone" ---- full paragraph !!!!
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 12: 45
      0
      so while writing "information policy" has changed
    2. EvilLion
      EvilLion April 22 2018 22: 10
      0
      Well, 4 million buried HZ from where, it seems it is precisely known about 2.3 million in the territory of the USSR. It is clear that some of the burials are unknown, especially since the burial grounds on both sides liked to be leveled with tanks, or simply not found bones rot somewhere.
  8. nnz226
    nnz226 April 22 2018 14: 57
    +5
    One Halba boiler, organized by the forces of Zhukov and Konev, mined out at least 250 000 "Holdaten." The army was cut off from Berlin, surrounded in the forests, and they decided to break through to the west, to the class close to the Nazis, the American and British troops. But it was the 1945 year, and almost all Germans were laid when trying to break through, there are eyewitness accounts where it is said that in some fields the corpses of the Germans lay in 6 - 8 layers .... Or maybe they buried more than 250 000 ...
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 16: 02
      0
      there, less than 250000 fell into coverage, 30-60 thousand were killed with the loss of 20 thousand of their
    2. EvilLion
      EvilLion April 22 2018 22: 11
      0
      Duc of all this mass, the bulk simply surrendered. The crushing operations are just accompanied by minimal blood. The French in the 1940th lost 95% l / s prisoners, ours in the 41th 60%.
  9. kan123
    kan123 April 22 2018 15: 31
    +3
    There is Gelder, the head of the General Staff, - his figures can also be questioned - he was released from Kichy, not for the fact that he would praise the Red Army, - he writes in his diaries, for the first year of the war, 2 million who left the Wehrmacht - he even this German pedantic stupidity - he writes there that 500 thousand were killed, in a year, from June 22 to the end of the summer of 1942, a little less than a year - and for 500 thousand killed, according to statistics, one and a half million wounded and missing. Most likely there was a larger number of Wehrmacht casualties, from the border to Stalingrad (Stalingrad had just begun when Gelder was fired - for Hitler’s commander’s non-fulfillment of dreams).
    The losses for the Wehrmacht were terrifying, even by the numbers of Gelder.
    Secondly, indirectly, during the year of the war, the Wehrmacht lost its entire main army, as did the Red Army. Because the memories of the second "fired", brilliant fascist Guderian - who was the spearhead of all attacks - he lost the entire "guard" and the mate part, by October 1941 - given the scale, they received a millionaire only direct corpses, from late June to October . That is, Helder’s numbers can be multiplied by two, by three, quite confidently - because no one will find the documents.
    Secondly - the theme of the terrifying losses of the Red Army from the great warriors - the Germans, began immediately after the death of Stalin, for some reason. Their historians wrote that the Red Army lost 30 million soldiers and officers (!) And the Germans lost 3 million during the entire war. Until now, this figure has remained unchanged, in relation to - they write that the Wehrmacht lost 7 million - and they multiply immediately by ten - 70 million were lost by the Red Army - they don’t worry, to put it mildly. In general, the Red Army - suckers - fascists - forever.
    Thirdly, Hitlerite Germany was defeated already in the first half of the year - when the Red Army allegedly cruelly laid down "under the fence to die." In fact, all the main forces of the Wehrmacht were knocked out from June to October 1941, especially they went to Kiev near the city of heroes. After that, the Wehrmacht ceased to exist as a force. Then the agony began, right after Moscow - the Red Army only had to form an army, headquarters, mate unit, which was successfully completed.
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 16: 07
      0
      for the Wehrmacht - yes, terrifying, before that they simply got used to pushing the Poles in a little Poland with tanks, and then they dressed in black for the first time after losing 300 thousand and they lost their pre-war base near Kursk, which was a turning point
    2. EvilLion
      EvilLion April 22 2018 20: 43
      +1
      For the 1941th Germans, apparently, up to 2 million total losses, well, somewhere 500 corpses, there was no way to make up for it, the army of the 1 million reserve, and itching only started in the fall. 2 Million in percentage terms may not look creepy, they got 5.5 million there after pulling up parts of the 2 echelon, but the combatants are killed in the first place, especially since they gouge the org. structures with all their cooks, horse breeders, carriers of ammunition and other husks, the Red Army in the 41, as a rule, did not work.

      As a result, the Germans have divisions for the 1941 deck, and there are fighters with 98 Mausers, machine guns and nifig guns, and 20-25 companies. The Red Army received a numerical superiority and launched a counterattack near Moscow, which lasted until the moment when the contingent called up in the fall of the 41 contingent underwent at least some preparation (3 months minimum) and was delivered to the front, the forces leveled off, and then were the retreat of 42, because with the Germans, with equal strength, then there was simply no way to fight.

      Something like this I imagine this period of the war at the macro level. German tales about 164 thousand killed during this period and 800 to general losses do not channel here, it simply would not lead to a shortage of salvage, which Halder writes about, and which could not be simply due to the fact that not too then the numerous and frankly hastily restored Red Army of the whole 4 month came, noticeably dropping the Germans.
      1. YELLOWSTONE
        YELLOWSTONE April 22 2018 22: 46
        0
        the war began to drag out, began to itch at the expense of replenishment, the troops at the front should be rotated and taken to rest
        there were no militias in 1941
        hastily hastily transferred in large quantities from Siberia and the Far East
  10. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh April 22 2018 16: 17
    +1
    "The question is: where did the rest go? There were 19 million fighters,
    7 million fell - 12 million remains. "///

    How to where? The war ended in Germany. Heard of surrender
    threw rifles, took off their uniforms and went home.
    1. Yaroslav 2
      April 22 2018 16: 49
      +3
      It would be in the German army 12 million by May 1945 - then the war would not only not end, it would not even come to German territory.
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh April 22 2018 17: 31
        0
        By May 45th, the Germans under arms still had more
        5 million soldiers (and not 12, of course, you're right).
        About 4,5 million wounded during the war did not return to duty, were
        written off. And prisoners of war, of course. So roughly
        and in total these "missing" 12 million
  11. arsen69
    arsen69 April 22 2018 16: 47
    +3
    About 5 or even 7 million people. Wehrmacht losses - of course, complete nonsense. It is enough to look at the statistics of calls during the Second World War in Germany and the Union Territories - calls were made every six months, and more often at the end of the war, and everyone was called up, even to the crippled.
    In addition, the author does not mention another reason why the loss of the Wehrmacht for a long time was difficult to establish - ideological. Nazism proclaimed the Germans a "race of masters", on the basis of this logic, "supermen" simply could not, by definition, die in packs. Therefore, the data on losses was intentionally distorted or hidden, which created additional difficulties for future researchers on this issue. In general, today there is a general idea of ​​the size of the military losses of the parties in the Second World War - they are approximately equal and amount to slightly less than 9 million people. on each side, i.e. from the Red Army, including allied formations, and from the Wehrmacht, which also included, as you know, not only Germans.
    Here is an intelligible and relatively recent article by a professional historian that summarizes the results of a scientific search over several decades. True, it is devoted mainly to the losses of the USSR, but it gives a general and objective idea on the topic of losses of the parties in the Second World War:
    http://www.nm1925.ru/Archive/Journal6_2017_2/Cont
    ent / Publication6_6556 / Default.aspx
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion April 22 2018 20: 21
      0
      You do not understand with what intensity people are destroyed in the conditions of a total war to be called up once every six months. In such conditions, they are rowing all non-stop.
    2. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE April 27 2018 04: 09
      0
      OKV data in which Overmans and others did not work
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_casualties_i
      n_World_War_II
  12. slaventi
    slaventi April 22 2018 17: 08
    +3
    Disputes can go on forever. After the collapse of the USSR, the Russian Federation fell under the external control of the United States. In the 90 years, the stage of degeneration of our exploits and victories began. We were told that if we surrendered, we would drink Bavarian beer. From the country of the winner, they made the country defeated. And in this aspect of pro-American propaganda, including along with pseudo-historians, our losses were inflated many times and the German underestimated. So it will be to infinity, until we there will be a national ideology and a national elite. And so we will learn about our losses from such "historians" like the defector Rezun-Suvorov to the Pivovars who burned the INION library - the fourth in the country in terms of funds, from Svanidze and by scum and traitors..Americans still claim that in Korea they lost 70 downed planes and spit on everyone the main thing is that they turned their people into swallowing any fairy tale .. I think that the time will soon come when we will not see burry mug Svanidze, and Brewers will flee to their masters across the ocean ... And there will be no attempts to rewrite history inside the country, and for trying to hang Mannerheim’s board they will hide it for many years. Then the time will come when you can find out the truth and losses from all sides.
  13. avia12005
    avia12005 April 22 2018 17: 50
    +3
    Watson, this is elementary: if the Russians defeated the Germans, then the Germans died more ...
    Holmes, but where is your evidence ???
    Watson, the Russians defeated the Germans ...
  14. polkovnik manuch
    polkovnik manuch April 22 2018 17: 54
    +1
    I met figures from one of the Germans that the irretrievable losses of Germany amounted to about 13 million soldiers and officers. As for the losses of the USSR, we can say that they were huge, but much less than the figures of 27 million people (total: army and civilian population!) here also those who deliberately went over to the enemy’s side (Westerners-Bandera, residents of the newly joined Baltic republics, Caucasian and Central Asian nationalists, about 100 thousand “Cossacks”, etc. Losses of the Soviet (Red) Army are still not counted who considered our poor grandfathers, especially 41-42 years.
  15. nivander
    nivander April 22 2018 18: 03
    +2
    explorer and pioneer of the Death Valley (Myasnaya Bor \ 2UD A) N.Orlov describes dozens of German cemeteries in the area. In the 60s, reclamation and drainage of swamps began - the Soviet soldiers found were buried with honors, the German cemeteries were demolished by bulldozers and it turned out that under one cross (with the same name) bouvalo buried up to 17 soldiers
  16. kan123
    kan123 April 22 2018 18: 21
    0
    Hitler still had a middle name - Louise. His dad, a big entertainer, got this name - LOUISE. For what young Hitler was portrayed - I, as an amateur psychologist, explain this whole stupidity of the attack on our Moscow Region with this ancestor. Louise - his nickname in the boarding school - from where he went immediately to the war. Hitler was a cruel sergeant, for which he was given the post of "policeman" for the opposition. The irony is that Hitler tracked down the forefathers, as the FSB tracks them - but before in Germany there was no office - secret services (very powerful at that time), were banned - they put on a throne types like Poroshenko - an ass - piglets. They hired Hitler to monitor unions. He followed, and realized that he would easily lead them. The Germans did not understand anything from the Treaty of Versailles - where they were invited to demolish William, and no one would punish them. They are William, in September 1918 they demolished - and died in the streets, because the contract was violated - they destroyed the nation. That gave rise to fascism. Well, they destroy you, as a nation - like the Papuans - you have an agreement with England that you are after the revolution, all debts are written off to you. And here you are like papus, as if you had captured a vase. Merkel also read this around the corner - when you make a German a papus, do not wait for good. They are not papus. They are beautiful people, smart, hardworking - labor in Germany is more important than gold. And they were lowered, as they did not let in Kolyma. They - were indignant and came running Luizych. Our showdown with the Germans, in the sense that we were taken hostage by the situation. we are the victims. The Germans couldn’t do this, but we aren’t doing it at all — we are building our own communism — we turned out to be Luizich’s only “Convener” with the West - his comparison with the USA and England - alas, didn’t grow together - thanks to my grandfather, for the victory - or rather, 12 of my grandfathers, who shot there, and seven who stayed there on the roads of war. The fact is that - we really need that experience today - after all, everything is repeated in the same Syria - and a solution has already been found - this policy of the 30s, the times of the USSR. And why come up with anew - besides, you will come.
  17. zimzinov
    zimzinov April 22 2018 18: 38
    0
    There are estimates of scientists from the GDR. There the Germans lost somewhere around 15.7 million. This is the end of the 1950s. It seems to me closer to the truth. It is known that in the spring of 1945 the Germans in the army had a huge amount of Volkssturm and Hitler Youth. There was no one to fight. We knocked out their military age by 1945. And in 1945 they still filled a bunch of this German shit. And the rest were captured. On the restoration of the national economy of the USSR.
  18. EvilLion
    EvilLion April 22 2018 20: 28
    +1
    The USSR lost about half of the actual f / s involved (23-25 million real militants from 34 million mobilized altogether, which includes even women and 60-year-old professors who could be mobilized for a while and sent to dig trenches for a couple of months, and then demobilize, well, the soldiers in Iran or in the Far East sat in considerable quantities, perhaps up to 2 million of these). This is with the prisoners, DMB injured, only killed and died in captivity percent can up to 40.

    The Germans could not lose less in percentage terms, otherwise they would not have lost the war, and even with such a crash, of course, there were battles in Africa, from the middle of the 1944 year in the west. Europe, but the Germans still had a lot of allies, their losses in 800 to the killed EMNIP are estimated.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh April 22 2018 22: 47
      +3
      Examples in which winners lost many times more than losers are full in history.
      Vietnam war. Winners - North Vietnam lost from 1,2 million to 1,5 million according to various sources. Losers - The USA lost 58,000 thousand soldiers, plus the South Vietnamese army lost 250,000 soldiers.
      Winter war with the Finns. Winner - The Soviet Union lost 126,000 soldiers. Losers - Finland has lost 21,000 soldiers.
      There is even a special term in history: “Pyrrhic victory” - victory with huge losses.
      1. Glory1974
        Glory1974 April 23 2018 18: 30
        +1
        Vietnam war. Winners - North Vietnam lost from 1,2 million to 1,5 million according to various sources. Losers - The USA lost 58,000 thousand soldiers, plus the South Vietnamese army lost 250,000 soldiers.

        again, how many civilians were killed, bombed and poisoned? And in general, not quite a correct comparison of the war to destroy the country and regional war.
      2. Cer59
        Cer59 April 26 2018 17: 02
        0
        son, with modern weapons, a breakthrough of the mannerheim line is possible only with the use of nuclear weapons. and grandfathers took without him.
        1. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker April 26 2018 17: 09
          0
          Quote: Cer59
          with modern weapons, a breakthrough of the mannerheim line is possible only with the use of nuclear weapons.

          Rezun read?
          1. Cer59
            Cer59 April 27 2018 14: 59
            0
            not only, by the way of Rezun, not a single bastard was so truthful and could not refute. the trouble is that access to aid agreements between the USSR and cattle England is still not open. and in August 1941 the first aid convoy left England is not it strange so quickly? maybe the Red Army really had to come to the rescue?
            1. stalkerwalker
              stalkerwalker April 27 2018 15: 27
              +1
              Quote: Cer59
              to the article of Rezun, not one bastard is a truth-teller so refuted and could not

              I won’t even give the names of links and books, where this "historiGa" roll out to zero ....
              "Seek and find ..."
              1. Cer59
                Cer59 April 27 2018 20: 03
                0
                nice to read the right-sighted. write me where his mistake is on "day M" I accept technical technicals. so far, different things are written about the T-34 armor protection. but how much and what specifically. the main thing is to understand why the hell plant climb into the fray? what for? and? territory yes it is full of resources one laugh? it means someone had to pull out of shit.
                1. stalkerwalker
                  stalkerwalker April 27 2018 20: 48
                  +1
                  Quote: Cer59
                  nice to read right-handed

                  Well, if you know how to read and poke your fingers on the gadget, go to the discussion "Legendary T-34. From the war in Korea to the collapse of Yugoslavia."
                  You will be smarter when you overcome ...
                  laughing
              2. Cer59
                Cer59 3 May 2018 22: 15
                0
                that’s precisely “shitty books” which, when carefully read, confirm his data. but the conclusions must be done wisely. if you are. if I read, I took a pencil and climbed to climb the links and oooo. it all fits together.
                There is one book published by different publishers and they change page numbers. Yes, I had to search not by the page number, but by chapter and the most interesting content is sometimes changed. Colorado beetle beetles "memories and reflections" from the 1st to the 12th edition seems or take the 14th edition and compare everything new and new is added. awesome story turns out the cockroach beetle in 1967 made links to 1975 to go nuts of foresight.
      3. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker April 26 2018 17: 06
        +1
        Quote: voyaka uh
        Losers - Finland lost 21,000 soldiers.

        Sister, reference to the source, please ....
        And do not try to refer to the rezun-pharmacist-necrich and other rabble from history.
  19. steelmaker
    steelmaker April 22 2018 21: 27
    +1
    In the USSR, through the military registration and enlistment offices, 35 million people were called up. The funeral received 8,6-8,8 million people. The natural population decline before the war in the USSR was 4,5 million people. 27-18 = 11 million + wounded + prisoners + partisans ++. Statisticians converge in the figure of 15 million people, our losses along with the civilian population. Losses of Germany with the same calculations from 8 to 13 million.
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE April 23 2018 00: 09
      0
      some big scatter even within this framework
    2. victor50
      victor50 April 25 2018 12: 07
      0
      Quote: steel maker
      In the USSR, through the military registration and enlistment offices, 35 million people were called up. The funeral received 8,6-8,8 million people. The natural population decline before the war in the USSR was 4,5 million people. 27-18 = 11 million + wounded + prisoners + partisans ++. Statisticians converge in the figure of 15 million people, our losses along with the civilian population. Losses of Germany with the same calculations from 8 to 13 million.

      Statisticians still do not agree on anything. The spread of ten or more million people. Although they could have calculated the approximate figure with an error already in the thousands, well, in the tens of thousands of people based on the data of the court tour of 1946 and memory books compiled in the 80s. For some reason this is not done.
      1. Cer59
        Cer59 April 26 2018 17: 01
        0
        much bigger loss to Germany
        Potery.ru
        http://www.poteryww2.narod.ru/index.html

        Home
        German casualties in the second world war.
      2. Cer59
        Cer59 April 26 2018 17: 04
        0
        do not forget Germany called 32-34 million people. Yes, plus the co-creators in the region of 8 million people.
        Well, about the loss of Germany gave a link.
        Potery.ru
        http://www.poteryww2.narod.ru/index.html

        Home
        German casualties in the second world war.
  20. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet April 23 2018 17: 39
    0
    Both ours and the Germans lost about 1941 million people killed and died from wounds in 45-9 ...
  21. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet April 23 2018 17: 47
    0
    Quote: voyaka uh
    The research task of recent years is completely transparent:
    reduce combat losses on the Soviet-German front to 1: 1
    for all the time of the war. When they come as a result of all manipulations to
    this conceived result - calm down.

    According to the canons, upon the occurrence of the loss of the advancing side 3 to 1 ... POINT ..
    1. Glory1974
      Glory1974 April 23 2018 18: 31
      +1
      According to the canons, upon the occurrence of the loss of the advancing side 3 to 1

      This is not a loss, but a necessary advantage for the offensive.
      1. YELLOWSTONE
        YELLOWSTONE April 24 2018 00: 44
        0
        from the fact that it is usually necessary what follows?
        1. Glory1974
          Glory1974 April 24 2018 19: 36
          0
          from the fact that it is usually necessary what follows?

          If you follow your logic, then probably the 1 fighter will die from the defenders, but for the advancing 3?
          Yes, there it was. If you think so, it turns out that the Red Army smashed the Wehrmacht to pieces in the summer of 41. But this is not so.
          Or maybe the defending Wehrmacht in 45. defeated the Red Army in the loss of 1 to 3. No, also not true. Tell a clue or guess yourself?
          1. YELLOWSTONE
            YELLOWSTONE April 24 2018 23: 48
            0
            about 2, then someone will need to hold the defense winked

            what the Red Army was in 1941 can hardly be called defense
            the highest losses at the Red Army were in 1941 and 1945
  22. Cannonball
    Cannonball April 23 2018 22: 30
    +1
    YELLOWSTONE, I can only answer for what I myself was an eyewitness. However, in addition to this, I am familiar with the shaft of information “from the wrong lips” whose reliability I can neither confirm nor deny. At the same time, some events that took place before my eyes were officially presented in a very different light. (God is their judge).
    One such example.
    When cleaning / disassembling the AK-74 due to a gross violation of the dismantling sequence, (instead of disconnecting the magazine, jerking the shutter, controlling the trigger), the soldier sitting next to me first pulled the shutter, then disconnected the magazine and pulled the trigger. There was a shot. At this time, the machine gun was lying on its knees and aimed at the neighboring fighter with the barrel. A bullet pierced a neighbor’s lung, he was urgently sent to the hospital by a pinwheel. Two weeks later he died. In Afghanistan, he served only a month.

    Almost thirty-five years have passed since then. The Internet has lists of the dead in Afghanistan. Suddenly I find in him my dead comrade and what I see:

    "In Rep. Afghanistan since June 1983 (we were in another training course and also went to Afghanistan together, in the same platoon). When a motorized rifle company was pulled into the designated borough, the main armored personnel carrier was blown up on an anti-tank mine. B., which was on it, he was seriously wounded and died on 25.7.1983/6/XNUMX. (The guy in Afghanistan was less than a month old, they didn’t take such operations at all - only after XNUMX months of service directly in the combat regiment. He’s not a motorized infantry officer, but a topographic surveyor. So why should he was to be done in the motorized rifle company, especially in the head armored personnel carrier? After all, we practically did not intersect with the motorized rifles - they have their own soldier’s shoulder strap, and we have our own.)
    For courage and bravery Ord. Red Star (posthumously). "

    Of course, the MO did not dare to tell the truth to the relatives that their son was killed by our, domestic dolboklyuy-inferior for the reason of indoctrination and natural stupidity. So the guy became, so to speak, the hero-bearers. You can’t bring it back anymore, and it will be a little easier for relatives to feel from the thought that they raised a dzhigit, and not a ram ...
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE April 24 2018 00: 40
      0
      Quote: Cannonball
      I can only answer for what I myself was an eyewitness

      well, so these veterans were telling at that moment what they were witnessing
      1. Cannonball
        Cannonball April 24 2018 20: 09
        0
        Veterans, especially those aged, often do not talk about what they saw, but about what they heard from others or read somewhere else. Such is the psychology of man, when the sense of reality is lost and it is difficult to separate the real from the imaginary. Judging by myself.
        1. YELLOWSTONE
          YELLOWSTONE April 24 2018 23: 49
          0
          I don’t remember those, how much I myself seriously got into trouble?
          1. Cannonball
            Cannonball April 25 2018 20: 08
            0
            And I met all the time. And the farther the event, the fewer your own memories and more words of others.
            1. YELLOWSTONE
              YELLOWSTONE April 25 2018 20: 35
              0
              but how to check?
              1. Cannonball
                Cannonball April 25 2018 20: 50
                0
                Why check?
                It’s clear that the right-handed artillery calculation of the regiment three-inch can never know what was happening at the headquarters of the 3rd Ukrainian Front during the battle of the Dnieper.
                For example, as a war veteran, the first five minutes of the film "9th Company" were enough for me to understand that the film is a complete mess, which to watch further is time to lose. This "movie" had nothing to do with real events.
                I can say the same thing about fairy tales about the events of August 91st.
                However, they are presented as historical information, although in reality they are pure disinformation. But who will understand the intricacies of truth and fiction? People and so on.
                1. YELLOWSTONE
                  YELLOWSTONE April 25 2018 21: 05
                  0
                  and what does the film "9th vomiting"? Did WWII veterans take it off?
                  1. Cannonball
                    Cannonball April 25 2018 22: 16
                    0
                    Why stupid? What difference does what war veteran have? Human psychology does not change over time. And the supply of material also does not change. The picture is changing, the plot is changing, the characters are changing ... but the essence remains the same - embellish your own, belittle the stranger. Well, to deceive for solidity or a red word. Anyway, no one will ever know the complete truth.
                    1. YELLOWSTONE
                      YELLOWSTONE April 26 2018 03: 22
                      0
                      from different wars (and places in it) a different psychology is obtained, war is not a hunt, it is somewhat vice versa
                      1. Cannonball
                        Cannonball April 26 2018 20: 56
                        0
                        Psychology does not depend on the place and type of war. Kill in all wars.
                    2. YELLOWSTONE
                      YELLOWSTONE April 27 2018 01: 47
                      0
                      the clerk at the headquarters has one, the soldier at the front line has another
                      a Vietnamese in the jungle has one, an American shoots a helicopter at peasants in rice fields another
                      1. Cannonball
                        Cannonball April 27 2018 19: 16
                        0
                        You did not understand me.
                        I'm talking about something else - about the property of human memory and psychology over time to replace the real with the virtual. Whatever the veteran, no matter what the war, after years and decades he remembers the war a little different than it actually was. And the more time passes, the more false memory becomes.
                        There is such a thing as “misinformation effect” when the reproduction of episodic memories becomes less accurate due to post factum information. It is a classic example of retroactive interference that occurs when information obtained later interferes with the ability to store previously encoded information.
                        This can also include retrospective distortion - filtering the memory of past events through current knowledge. Moreover, the events look more predictable than they were in reality.
                    3. YELLOWSTONE
                      YELLOWSTONE April 27 2018 19: 40
                      0
                      and now in Russian please
                      and how all this can lead, for example, to the fact that soldiers will then or later confuse automatic weapons used on them or bolted
                      1. Bask
                        Bask April 27 2018 22: 10
                        0
                        Damn what kind of person are you. A person is trying to convey to you that everyone has his own vision of the same events. The general has his own (within which unit he is the chief-army, division, etc.), and the private one has his own. Here's an example the use of the automatic weapons you mentioned, the Red Army soldiers were sure that all German infantry was armed with machine guns. In fact, the German infantryman was armed with a Mauser 98k carbine, only officers and non-commissioned officers armed with a submachine gun. The high density of fire was due to the fact that in each Department of the company in the state was the calculation of the MG34 machine gun. Here you have a vision of the veterans.
                      2. YELLOWSTONE
                        YELLOWSTONE 1 May 2018 01: 28
                        0
                        see answer below
  23. Cannonball
    Cannonball April 24 2018 20: 05
    0
    YELLOWSTONE, we are talking about people, not objects.
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE April 24 2018 23: 53
      0
      both were taken into account and checked, the Brandenburgs were not in vain forbidden to speak German between themselves on Soviet territory, anyway they would throw up their hands or get naughty from their pop music repeat
  24. Bask
    Bask April 25 2018 07: 43
    0
    plebs,
    Maybe you do not understand, but here they are discussing the calculation of combat losses.
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE April 27 2018 02: 02
      0
      this then must be done on the basis of questions of armament and tactics, as well as medicine (the only thing the USSR excelled in, not counting the first thing)
  25. victor50
    victor50 April 25 2018 12: 03
    0
    Quote: YELLOWSTONE
    it all can be mutual ... request
    in the case, this is what veterans say, for example, or those who were under occupation
    the author in the article shuffles someone else's deck of cards with speculation

    And what are your arguments? After all, it doesn’t matter to you that in reality, the main thing the USSR should lose BOOOOL, and it’s necessarily lying.
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE April 25 2018 20: 36
      0
      and why should less, even if this is not true?
  26. victor50
    victor50 April 26 2018 08: 02
    0
    Quote: Cannonball
    For example, we did not have medallions.
    As for the collection of information, each platoon, each company, each battery, etc. daily submits to the headquarters of the jualion (division) a summary of the presence and condition of the personnel, the number of absent (departed) and the reason for absence. Together with her, a summary and ammunition consumption is compiled. At headquarters, this information is summarized and transmitted to a higher headquarters.

    So it should be. But, unfortunately, it was not. I got acquainted with the combat reports of one division (5th Guards SD, ex. 107 SD). It seemed that until December 1941 (documents from September and later were interested), they somehow tried to maintain order in accounting for losses. But from January 1942 onwards (looked through June), the picture deteriorates sharply, many times less documents. In my opinion, it could not be otherwise. The commanders dropped out, replacing them could somehow (or not somehow) organize the conduct of hostilities, but accounting, and possibly other components of everyday life ... Was this before? It is obvious that many documents were lost (especially in the surroundings of 41-42).
    Off topic, but ... In connection with his searches, acquaintance with the documents of that period, the stories of the children and grandchildren of the surviving soldiers, he realized for himself: what we are talking about the exploits of our soldiers, about heroism and stamina - it’s as if to say without special patience - a significant understatement of what they did in reality. I tried to imagine myself in those conditions and circumstances ... It is hard to believe that it was possible to survive, fight and ... win!
    1. Cannonball
      Cannonball April 26 2018 21: 04
      0
      I wrote somewhere here that war is work. Hard, scary, dangerous, heroic work. In war only full nerds feel like heroes. The main feeling in the war is that you are a draft horse carrying a heavy load. And when you bring it, you are surprised to yourself: "I could!" A feeling of heroism appears after, when in a calm atmosphere comes awareness of the past and the accomplished. So it’s quite possible to survive, fight and win. The main thing is not to lose your head.
  27. Cer59
    Cer59 April 26 2018 16: 57
    0
    well put on.
    read and count
    http://www.poteryww2.narod.ru/index.html
    Potery.ru
    German casualties in the second world war.
  28. Bask
    Bask April 27 2018 07: 03
    0
    Barabashka 68,
    And where does the article you cite say about child labor in Germany? Look carefully at the age of 19-25. Where does it say about child labor?
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE April 28 2018 07: 27
      0
      Quote: Bask
      Damn what kind of person are you. A person is trying to convey to you that everyone has his own vision of the same events. The general has his own (within which unit he is the chief-army, division, etc.), and the private one has his own. Here's an example the use of the automatic weapons you mentioned, the Red Army soldiers were sure that all German infantry was armed with machine guns. In fact, the German infantryman was armed with a Mauser 98k carbine, only officers and non-commissioned officers armed with a submachine gun. The high density of fire was due to the fact that in each Department of the company in the state was the calculation of the MG34 machine gun. Here you have a vision of the veterans.

      here's another example of how <censored removed> can put oneself above the veterans of the Great Patriotic War
      Avt obviously didn’t read the answer, about SVT too - the Germans had in every apparel, even if it was not an assault (MSV or in a hurry in the city).
      1. Bask
        Bask April 28 2018 07: 51
        0
        I honestly did not understand your thought that you expressed. Yes, the SVT in the Red Army were, but not on a massive scale and again, the reviews of the front-line soldiers (or all) about her were not the most flattering. And not because this very SVT was bad, most of the foot soldiers low level of technical knowledge, and this rifle required careful maintenance, which most ordinary soldiers in the rifle units could not provide. And as for the Germans, again, well, they had a certain number of SVT, but they did not solve anything. Once again, massive fire from small arms were provided by saturating the infantry squads with machine guns. Even with the advent of the StG44 Germans, the number of machine guns in the units increased.
        1. YELLOWSTONE
          YELLOWSTONE April 28 2018 08: 18
          0
          here in the Red Army they were not, they all went to the Wehrmacht in warehouses, the above was only about each German branch.
          after exhaustion of the resource and cartridges began to be replaced by STG-44
          in the assault on semi-tracked armored personnel carriers there were submachine gunners with MP-40, and each had a machine gun
          1. Bask
            Bask April 28 2018 11: 22
            0
            The sailors armed themselves with SVT and they liked it very much. The fact that the Germans used trophy samples did not mean that it was so massive. They really liked the Soviet PCA and they completely used it. The Red Army had a battalion on “panthers”, but that’s a drop in sea ​​compared to using the T-34.
            1. YELLOWSTONE
              YELLOWSTONE April 28 2018 12: 34
              0
              Marines. and for some reason despite the sand. for them warehouses were not located in the URs
              in large numbers, the Germans had SVT in each department
              1. Bask
                Bask April 28 2018 17: 56
                0
                And where is the sand? Does the marine corps fight only where is the sand? Just the technical training of the sailor is higher than that of the infantryman, so there was no problem for the sailor to disassemble and clean the SVT. Do you want to say that the Germans were directly arming their soldiers with the SVT? It’s somehow not right Don't you think? I already wrote about the PPSh, which were even used by the SS troops. So the Germans assigned soldiers of the armed PPSh to each compartment? Well, following your logic.
                1. YELLOWSTONE
                  YELLOWSTONE April 28 2018 18: 31
                  0
                  mainly where there is sand. this was not for the army officer, just the warehouses for the marines were at the naval bases which are in the depths of the territory, and
                  army depots were in disarmed URs near the border, where those mobilized for their weapons did not have time to arrive
                  did you read "in every department" did the Germans have an SVT? moreover, she was appointed there and passed as a "light machine gun."
              2. kan123
                kan123 16 June 2018 10: 24
                0
                I apologize, gentlemen, what are you arguing about? The SVT, the tokarev rifle — which was not the sniper’s favorite weapon — drove the three-ruler, with which without any optics, the same Zaitsev laid the Germans a thousand meters away. Until now, automation is not welcome in sniper themes. It was an experiment that was not understood by the troops.
  29. Okolotochny
    Okolotochny April 28 2018 12: 40
    +1
    YELLOWSTONE,
    Take an interest in the "Book of Memory", compiled from the official. That's it, then, THEN, in other papers and archives, in other accounts, etc. And they are not made up of cars, but people who are mistaken. The larger the array of information, the more errors.
    1. YELLOWSTONE
      YELLOWSTONE April 28 2018 18: 33
      0
      So in the military registration and enlistment office of the military department of the USSR (which carried out the roll call in the Second World War), and not of the current silk-workers, then he consisted, as it should be in the reserve or in the missing?
  30. kan123
    kan123 16 June 2018 10: 11
    0
    Mathematically - armies underestimate losses by three times, any. Exceed enemy losses. One general wrote, after the war — I said he left the boiler — and in the newspapers they wrote that they died there, I don’t remember - 100 thousand, for example. , taken prisoner, killed, - it’s mine, the divisions were half-staffed - 100 thousand turned into 50 thousand - during the week of fighting 30 thousand - 10 thousand were knocked out - but numbers still go around - where you need to remove zero. And the USSR, oddly enough, did not try to refute this lie - apparently a political gain - the more it died, the more profitable it was for the Western "partners". The USSR had attacks where they simply suffered terrible losses, stupidly. The Wehrmacht also had such stupid commanders. This is a war - the generals rode there - they laid down thousands until the General Staff reached them. Hitler never gave 300 thousand to the 6th army of Paulus - it was possible to withdraw it. And how much of this army was left? 100 thousand were knocked out, in battles, they took as many more prisoners - of whom too few survived - the barracks in the steppe, there is nothing to build from - even our Germans drove in, built up our town, died like flies - there was an ancient German cemetery - they dumped them into the pit - and that was, the barracks and the sausage fed them - they just came weakened - they died dozens - or did they die from stress? In general, no confidence in the loss figures - no self-respecting historian will deal with this nonsense. The statistics on the war always lie - it’s just interesting that the USSR continued to lie, and did not try to find out the truth and refute all sorts of “Rezunov-Solzhenitsyn”. And now they write this to the kids in textbooks. Wonderland.
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