Military Review

Organization of the Spanish Army in 1808

43
The Pyrenean war is little known in the CIS, and even among people interested in the Napoleonic wars, “some small post-Spaniards with the French” (almost a quote from an acquaintance) are known only in general terms. Russian-language literature does not contribute to the broadening of horizons: the information about the Pyrenean War, also called the War of Independence in Spain, is incomplete at best, and most often fragmentary or erroneous, and this also applies to some translations from foreign languages. Even less information about the Spanish army of that time: despite the fact that it was quite numerous and played a significant role in the decisive defeat of Napoleon, there are only occasional references to it on various websites or in uniform manuals of that time. The current article is an attempt to fill this lack of information. It will focus primarily on organizational issues, and a brief background of various types of troops to the beginning of the conflict, i.e. as of 1808 year. Since the article itself appeared as a by-product of my other project, there may be some inaccuracies, assumptions or unsaid points.


Spanish infantry


Battle of San Marcial, painting by Augusto Ferrer Dalmau


The Spanish infantry is legendary. Anyone interested history, knows about the Spanish tertsi, their power and sunset after the battle of Rocroi. However, after this, and until the end of the XIX century, the majority of such people gaped into failure, right up to some comments released by some people like, “Did the Spaniards have regular infantry?”. Meanwhile, Spain at all times contained a sufficiently numerous and trained army, and although it already lacked stars from the sky, it was not the worst in Europe. The army, like many others, was recruited by recruiting or recruiting volunteers. The priority was given to the Spaniards proper, the number of foreigners in the army was insignificant, and then - mostly they were withdrawn into separate national formations. At the same time, there was also a system of militia recruitment of additional regiments on the territory of Spain proper, but this will be described below.

As the infantry became the basis of the Spanish army, so the line infantry (infanteria de linea) became the basis of the Spanish “queen of the fields”. The 1808 year in the Spanish army included the 35 regiments of infantry delinea (one of them with an incomprehensible status, sometimes simply not taken into account in the calculations), each of which consisted of 3 battalions. According to the established traditions of the Spanish army, the infantry regiments had two states. In peacetime, for the sake of cost savings, the number of infantry was reduced, and before the war an additional set of recruits was carried out to bring the units into full combat readiness. Thus, in the peacetime state, the line infantry regiment had to consist of 1008 soldiers and officers, and in the military staff - 2256 people. Undoubtedly, such a system made it possible to save a lot of money in peacetime, but at the same time there was also a minus - all this made the Spanish army sluggish in the initial period of any conflict, since the new recruits needed not only to recruit, but also to train that took a lot of time.

As in many other armies of the world, there were grenadiers in Spain. But if in Russia the grenadiers were reduced to separate regiments, then in Spain, like other Western Europe, the grenadiers gathered in fairly small units of high-quality reinforcement of infantry. For the first time, grenadiers at the official level appeared in Spain in 1702, when it was established that out of 13 there were [1] battalion one must be grenadier. In 1704, the composition of the battalions was changed - now instead of 13 there are 12 companies, one of them is grenadier. Soon followed by new changes in the organization - in the 1715, the regiments of permanent staff were formed, each of the two battalions of the 6 company. At the same time, the grenadier companies relied on each battalion, i.e. the proportion of these units within the Spanish army has doubled. From 1735, the grenadiers relied on the provincial militia, but not as separate companies, but as an immediate addition to the ranks with ordinary soldiers, in the number of 15 people in each company. In the future, the share of the grenadier among the police only increased - by the 1780 year, the battalions of the provincial police should have been in a regular company of grenadiers each. Larger formations with the participation of the grenadiers in Spain practically did not exist, although attempts to establish such a thing were met. Thus, according to the 1802 staff, each infantry brigade was required to form a separate battalion of grenadiers, bringing together companies from all the regular infantry regiments. The 8 separate battalions of the grenadier were also created by decree of the 1810 of the year, but they did not reach the regular strength, as did the grenadier companies before that. The reason for this can be called a fairly rigid selection of candidates for grenadiers in Spain - in addition to outstanding physical characteristics, the grenadiers were also required to have high moral qualities, which, coupled with the shortcomings of the recruitment system, led to a constant shortage of people in the grenadier companies.

There was in Spain and a fairly large light infantry. On the 1808 year, it listed 12 battalions with 6 mouths. Each battalion in the state consisted of 780 people in peacetime and 1200 in the military. There were three terms for light infantry in Spain: cazadores (cadadors), hostigadores (ostigadores) and tiradores (tiradors) [2], moreover, all three could be used simultaneously, and therefore it is worth “chewing” them separately. The term "Ostigadors" was applied to all light infantry, regardless of its function and time of appearance - so, in Spanish, the Origadators will be Russian huntsmen of the Crimean War, and Greek Peltasts, and English longbowmen. Actually, this term could not be remembered at all, if not for some strange love for him in some sources. Maybe I don’t know something, and this term was still widely used in the time of Napoleonica in Spanish, but I hardly ever met him in Spanish sources. Where the term “Casadors” can be found more often, the Spanish light infantry formations are called in Spanish, the analogue of which was the rangers' regiment. The first Casadorian units (as well as separate units of light infantry in Spain in general) were two regiments of volunteers recruited in Aragon and Catalonia in 1762, in the image and likeness of other European units of light infantry. Already in 1776, separate companies of the Cadadors appeared in the battalions of the regular army and provincial militia, and in 1793, the first special Cacadorian regiment, Barbastro, recruited instead of volunteers, was formed to serve in the Pyrenean Mountains. The term “tiradors” also occurs at a specified time, but its use raises some questions. Thus, it has been possible to read texts in which light infantry companies or individual teams assigned to battalions of line infantry are called Tiradors, in order to distinguish them from independent squad formations, but during the Pyrenean wars and the formation of light infantry formations based on the militia, separate Tyradoran forces also appeared shelf, which causes doubt the above information. However, there is reason to believe that the creation of individual Tirador regiments was more a deviation from the norm than the rule.

There were also among the Spanish infantry of the beginning of the 19th century, units that were distinct from other principles of recruitment and organization. They were named infanteria de linea extranjera, or foreign line infantry. As it was possible to guess, they were recruited from among the foreigners, and there was a division based on nationality. According to the permanent staff, each regiment of foreign infantry had a little more than a thousand people as part of two battalions. Total number of such regiments was 10. Six of them were Swiss, three were Irish, and one regiment was recruited from among the Italians.

Speaking of the infantry of Spain, it is also worth recalling the regimentos provincials de milicias, or the regiments of the provincial militia. All these regiments in Spain were 42, and in fact they were semi-regular formations. These were fairly convenient for use territorial units that had a slightly lower combat capability than the regular army. Organizationally, each such regiment consisted of only one battalion numbering from 600 to 1200 men. 13 regimentos milicias de urbanas can also be added to this list. the city militia, which, perhaps, in its fighting qualities was even worse than provincial. The largest regiment of the city militia was Cadiz, consisting of as many 20 companies, while the smallest was the regiment of Alcatelus, which had only one company in its composition. In total, there were about 30-35 thousand people in the city and provincial police.

All in all, the Spanish army had 1808 infantry regiments in 57, the number of which, in the event of war, was supposed to reach 103.400 people without taking into account the police; in fact, the number of infantry at the beginning of hostilities reached approximately 75-90 thousand people. However, the war that broke out soon turned out to be completely different from what was expected - instead of the usual maneuvers and sieges of the fortresses, a fierce guerrilla war broke out, which, in turn, hardened the active armies and led Spain and France to confrontation, during which Napoleon’s army suffered losses, more than there were only French losses in 1812 in Russia [3]. For Spain, this war became truly popular, which also led to the formation of many new regiments of militias and volunteers. Excluding the regular army, Spain in the 1808-1812 years deployed 100 light regiments and 199 infantry regiments on the battlefield, in total about 417 battalions. There are other figures - by the end of 1808, at the very beginning of the war, the Spanish army put thousands of soldiers and officers on the battlefield of 205, and in 1814, i.e. after five years of war and brutal losses, the number of the Spanish army reached 300 thousands of people without taking into account the independent unorganized partisan forces. For that time and the population of the Spanish metropolis (about 10,8 million) it was a huge army, and these figures vividly characterize the scale of the war, which we would have called the Great Patriotic War without hesitation.

Spain Joseph Bonaparte also exhibited an army recruited from among the Spaniards, but its strength was insignificant, and the reliability of such units left much to be desired. The overwhelming majority of units of the Spanish regular army went over to the side of the uprising and came out against the French immediately after Joseph Bonaparte was proclaimed king. In this case, it would be appropriate to recall the division of La Romana. She was recruited from Spain in the 1807 year from among the Spaniards and became the first compound that was to assist the French in their wars in Europe. Marquis Pedro Caro-i-Suredou de la Romana was appointed to command her. Its original purpose was Northern Germany. The Spaniards showed themselves well, distinguished themselves during the storming of Stralsund, under the command of Marshal Bernadotte, who even made a personal escort of Spanish soldiers. Later, the division was stationed on the Jutland Peninsula, where it was supposed to protect the coast from possible landings of Sweden and the United Kingdom. but news from the Motherland they reached the Spaniards, one more disturbing than the other - the Bourbons were overthrown, Joseph Bonaparte was seated on the throne, a massacre of civilians occurred in Madrid, an uprising began against the French government ... Marquis de La Romana, being a true Spaniard, after such a turn of events firmly decided that the French had betrayed his country, and entered into secret negotiations with the British, who promised to evacuate the division of La Romana to Spain by sea. A revolt broke out, the Spaniards managed to seize the port of Fionia for evacuation, with several regiments from the division were surrounded by other allies of France and were forced to lay down weapon. From Denmark, 9 managed to evacuate thousands of people from 15 - the rest were either captured or remained loyal to the French. In the future, the division of La Romana took an active part in the war with the French, where they showed high morale and courage, while suffering significant losses. Those who remained loyal to Napoleon (about 4 thousand people) were in for the grave fate of the Russian campaign 1812 of the year, the battle of Borodino, death or captivity, and repatriation to Spain. In hostilities, they, contrary to past achievements in the composition of the division of La Romana, did not show themselves.

Spanish cavalry

Organization of the Spanish Army in 1808

Hussar Regiment "Maria Luisa", 1808 Year


Spain was famous for its light cavalry since the times of the Reconquista, and its sufficiently high fighting qualities remained until the beginning of the XIX century. At the same time, heavy cavalry was not seriously developed. For several reasons, the number of cavalry in Spain has steadily declined, and by the year 1808 was already estimated as very moderate. Cavalry regiments of all types in Spain had a permanent staff - 5 squadrons numbered 670 soldiers and officers, of which 540 were mounted.

The bulk of the cavalry were the shelves of the linear cavalry (caballeria de linea). From the other cavalry, they differed more sturdy horses and a little more content. Traditionally, these regiments acted as “donors” - many regiments of other types of cavalry were initially formed as regiments of linear cavalry, after which they were transformed into hussars, casadors or dragoons. In fact, the heavy Spanish cavalry was limited to this - there were no longer any heavy dragoons or cuirassiers we were used to in the army for the 1808 year. Total regiments of linear cavalry to the specified time there were 12 units.

Dragones in the Spanish army were considered light cavalry, and appeared in 1803 [4]. They differed from the linear cavalry in the worst selection of horses and in the standard ability of the dragoons to act both on horseback and on foot. Strictly speaking, the cavalry regiments possessed a similar ability, but their maintenance was more expensive, and it was sharpened more under shock functions, as a result of which the Spanish generals were often “greedy” to use it as a simple riding infantry. Total for the 1808 year in Spain were listed 8 dragoon regiments. They did not last long - already in 1815, they were reformed.

Horse tzadador appeared in Spain after the reorganization in the 1803 year, part of the regiments of the linear cavalry. There were two such regiments, and both of them were formed long before the appearance of horse-drawn horse promenades in the Spanish army as such. In terms of tactics of use, this was the classic light cavalry, but already in the course of the war with France, the Cacadors began to receive their peaks, having approached their abilities to the lancers. Moreover - many regiments of the linear cavalry and dragoons were transformed during the war into parts of horse-drawn horsemen.

Hussars in Spain were quite unpopular type of light cavalry. For the first time they appeared at the end of the XVIII century, and by the year 1808 they were represented by only two regiments. Differences from the other light cavalry - dragoons and casadors - consisted mainly of expensive, but spectacular uniforms. During the war, the popularity of this type of cavalry began to grow dramatically, with the result that even in conditions of total war, a sufficiently large number of hussar regiments were formed.

We should also talk about the Carabinieri and equestrian grenadiers. With the exception of the guard units, they did not constitute any independent formations, and were included in the squadrons of dragoons and linear cavalry. Carabinieri acted as skirmishers armed with rifled carbines, and after the shelling of the enemy were to retreat from the ranks of his squadron to reload weapons. By the time of the start of the Iberian War, experiments with the creation of independent connections of carabineers, as far as I know, were completed, and the carabineers of the dragoon regiments and the linear cavalry were fighting in general formation. Horse grenadiers were essentially the same foot grenadiers, only mounted on horses. Similarly, there were high physical and moral requirements for them, just as they wore a distinctive uniform, and in the same way were relatively few and constantly under-rescued in relation to the standard amount.

During the war, the composition of the Spanish cavalry has changed dramatically. As in the case of the infantry, the conditions of a “popular” war and a large influx of people into the armed forces affected it. In all, during the war 1808-1812 of the year, the Spanish army had 11 new regiments of linear cavalry, 2 regiment of spearmen, 10 regiments of hussars, 10 regiments of mounted horsemen and 6 regiments of dragoons. Many of them were formed on their own initiative by the local population, and therefore the formal membership of some type of cavalry could be very conditional. Borders and between regular cavalry were eroded — uniform was changing, the quality of equestrian personnel was falling, new armament appeared. Thus, formally, during the war, the Spanish cavalry did not have lancers, but the cavalry peaks already in the course of hostilities turned out to be so popular weapons that during the war two lanceros regiments were formed, spearmen, and peaks began to appear as permanent personal weapons in all shelves - as light cavalry, and linear. In this case, de facto, none of these riders were ulanom, as belonging to the lancers was determined not only by cavalry lance with a weather vane, but also by individual items of clothing that were distinguished by their stylishness and high cost. Passion for spikes in the Spanish army continued after the expulsion of the French, as a result of which, for a short time, all the regiments of the Spanish cavalry were called Uhlan, though without acquiring an expensive “status” uniform.

It is curious that in some sources (mostly Russian-speaking) it is indicated that there were uhlans in the Spanish army (namely, lancers, and not just spearmen), and cuirassiers - despite the fact that not a single ulansky or kirassyrsky regiment existed. Most likely, we are talking about some formations recruited in Spain by supporters of Joseph Bonaparte, or even the French cavalry units who fought in Spain. Alas, I could not find out the details, except that in the Spanish army the cuirassiers disappeared as such after the Bourbons came to power, and after that they did not appear again.

Marines

Spain’s Marines are the oldest in the world. The date of its creation is February 27, 1537, when King Carlos I (aka Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire Charles V) signed a decree on the consolidation of the Neapolitan sea companies to the Mediterranean galley the fleet. Directly, the Marine Corps itself as a separate formation appeared in 1717, and by the end of the century it already had its own artillery and engineering units (since 1770). In terms of status, the Spanish marines occupied a position between the guards and ordinary infantry, and it was closer to the guard. Despite the gradual decline of Spain, the corps remained highly combat-ready, with well-trained and armed personnel.

The main part of the corps was Infanteria de Marina - the infantry itself. According to the 1808 staff, the corps consisted of 12 infantry battalions, which were combined into 6 regiments with a total of 12.528 soldiers and officers. The corps also included its own military engineers and, probably, field artillery. As a result, Cuerpo de Infanteria de Marina was a completely self-sufficient combat unit, and, if necessary, could act as an expeditionary corps without the involvement of additional compounds. The regiments of the marines were quartered in Ferrol, Cartagena and Cadiz.

Artillery


Spanish gunners firing from a light gun. Modern reconstruction


Real Cuerpo de Artilleria, or the Spanish Royal Artillery Corps, was founded in 1710, under King Philip V Bourbon. By the year 1808, there were 4 artillery regiments in the corps, each of which consisted of 2 battalions, and those in turn from 5 batteries (mouth) with 6 guns, of which 4 were on foot, and 1 were mounted. Thus, the Spanish field artillery consisted of 40 artillery batteries with 240 guns. However, there is also other information - 4 field pedestrian artillery regiment and 6 separate batteries of horse artillery, in the amount of 276 guns. In addition, the corps included 15 garrison artillery companies, 62 Veteran artillery companies (their purpose is not entirely clear), and Academia de Artilleria de Segovia, which at that time studied 150 cadets. The material part of the Spanish artillery was not obsolete, although it could not be called the most modern either. The main problem of Cuerpo de Artilleria was a relatively small number - if in 1812, the French and Russian army had one gun per 445 and 375 soldiers, respectively, then the Spanish regular army had one gun per 480-854 man [5]. The Spanish artillery and sufficiently developed industry, sharpened for the production of artillery, did not save the famous factories of La Cavada, Trubia, Orbasieta and others with the beginning of the war, or switched to the production of more relevant firearms, or simply ceased production due to the capture of the French or the departure of workers to partisans . As a result, the Spaniards had to deal with the artillery that they already had or that they managed to capture from the French or get from the Allied British, which greatly limited its capabilities. Spanish patriots had to rely more on saber, bayonet and rifle than on the support of their own artillery, while the French had quite numerous and modern artillery parks and could count on the help of the “god of war” in the battles.

Notes

1) In Spanish compañia, literally - the company. Often used in relation to artillery batteries, squadrons and other small units.

2) Cazadores - hunters; hostigadores - skirmishers; tiradores - arrows.

3) In 1812, Napoleon lost about 200 thousands of dead, 150-190 thousands of prisoners, 130 thousands of deserters, plus about 60 thousands of peasants. In Spain, the losses of France and its allies (mainly Polish national units) reached 190-240 thousands killed and 237 thousands wounded, with a relatively small number of prisoners - the hatred with which the Spaniards treated the French invaders, resulted in an extremely low percentage of prisoners. left alive. All in all, as a result of battles, repression, guerrilla war, from severe wounds and diseases during the Iberian War more than a million people died on both sides, including civilians.

4) Before that, dragoons also existed in 1635-1704 years.

5) Depends on the estimate of the strength of the Spanish army; the minimum is taken by the regular army staff at the beginning of 1808 of the year, the maximum is estimated by the total number of Spaniards who opposed Joseph Bonaparte by the end of 1808 of the year.

Used sources:
Uniformes Españoles de la Guerra de la Indepencia, Jose Maria Bueno Carrera.
Uniformes Militares Españoles: el Ejercito y la Armada 1808; Jose Maria Bueno Carrera.
Materials that are freely available on the Internet.
Author:
43 comments
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  1. Cat
    Cat April 25 2018 06: 17
    +11
    Many thanks to the author for the qualitative analysis of the "Spanish Army"!
    I dare not modestly "hint" for ourselves and the members of the forum - we would not refuse to continue!
    Sincerely, Kitty!
    1. arturpraetor
      April 25 2018 10: 14
      +7
      Quote: Kotischa
      Many thanks to the author for the qualitative analysis of the "Spanish Army"!

      And thank you for reading!
      Quote: Kotischa
      I dare not modestly "hint" for ourselves and the members of the forum - we would not refuse to continue!

      To be continued - by the Spanish Guard. I thought of going briefly and posting it in this article, but it didn’t work out - the volume is too big. But after that I don’t know what topics I will have articles on topvar - as indicated at the beginning, I get such articles as a by-product of other projects.
      1. igordok
        igordok April 25 2018 13: 14
        +2
        Quote: arturpraetor
        ... are obtained as a by-product of other projects.

        I want thirst for new by-products. good
        1. arturpraetor
          April 25 2018 13: 18
          +5
          Yes, the next one is just uploading to the site, within the next 7-10 days should come out hi
  2. Olgovich
    Olgovich April 25 2018 06: 30
    +4
    The Iberian War is little known in the CIS, and even among people interested in the Napoleonic Wars, "some small shootings Spaniards with the French
    On the contrary, the Iberian Wars are widely known as an example first most fierce resistance to the French invaders.
    Such resistance of the people Napoleon met only in Russia.
    Therefore, the Pyrenees wars and war of 1812 are often remembered together.
    In 1812, Napoleon lost about 200 thousand killed, 150-190 thousand prisoners, 130 thousand deserters, plus another 60 thousand hid peasants.

    Shelter is how? Captured, go?
    In 1812, Napoleon lost about 200 thousand dead, 150-190 thousand prisoners, 130 thousand deserters, plus another 60 thousand peasants shelter.

    There are other figures, 78 thousand killed, dead from the disease, 259 thousand

    The article is interesting, as is the theme of the Iberian Wars.
    1. arturpraetor
      April 25 2018 10: 33
      +5
      Quote: Olgovich
      On the contrary, the Iberian Wars are widely known as an example of the first fiercest resistance to the French invaders.

      Oh, I don’t know. It’s as if I’m not going around in circles where Napoleonics are widely known and discussed, mostly my friends with whom I’m talking on this topic are amateurs. And from fans often heard just pejorative assessments about Spain of that time, and their contribution to the defeat of Napoleon. Which is somehow even ugly, as for me.
      Quote: Olgovich
      Shelter is how? Captured, go?

      And, without a clue, here I just reprinted the first thing I found on the Internet. Most likely, we are talking about the varieties of deserters who did not immediately go home, but took refuge with the peasants, and were later "captured", when captured, but this is only an assumption.
      Quote: Olgovich
      There are other figures, 78 thousand killed, dead from the disease, 259 thousand

      It may well be so. The exact statistics for that time, most likely, can no longer be found.
      Quote: Olgovich
      The article is interesting, as is the theme of the Iberian Wars.

      Thank! Although, in fact, the article is quite superficial, and decided to publish it here simply because I did not find anything on this topic in Russian, and information can be useful to someone. And so, already after she got in line for publication, I found extra. information
      - about the Spanish cuirassiers (yes, they were there, until I found only one regiment, listed in the linear cavalry, maybe there were more);
      - about Spanish sappers and gastadors (something like the position of an engineer acting directly in the ranks of the company and in battle responsible for clearing the path of the company’s advance);
      - more accurate information about the organization of Spanish artillery (although this is just one more option out of many that I saw);
      - some information about the Spanish collaborators in the troops of Joseph Bonaparte (although I found it quite a bit);
      Etc. But I did not have time to write in this article, and not so much on the new material ...
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich April 25 2018 11: 14
        +3
        Quote: arturpraetor
        It’s as if I’m not going around in circles where Napoleonics are widely known and discussed, mostly my friends with whom I am talking on this topic are amateurs. And from fans often heard just pejorative assessments about Spain of that time, and their contribution to the defeat of Napoleon.

        Surprisingly, the people’s war in Spain was before OV. I don’t remember where, 30 years ago, I read the description of the assault on the Spanish fortress by the French: blood flowed through the streets, there was a fire storm and it sintered into a sticky crust that stuck to my legs ...
        Quote: arturpraetor
        Thank! Although in fact, the article is quite superficial,

        It’s impossible to cover everything, the article is interesting, thanks
        Quote: arturpraetor
        And so, after heand stood in line for publication, found extra. information

        so the article can be edited right up to the time of publication and during the queue ....
        1. arturpraetor
          April 25 2018 11: 22
          +3
          Quote: Olgovich
          Surprisingly, the people’s war in Spain was before OV. I don’t remember where, 30 years ago, I read the description of the assault on the Spanish fortress by the French: blood flowed through the streets, there was a fire storm and it sintered into a sticky crust that stuck to my legs ...

          That's amazing to me. And the assault was most likely from the epic siege of Zaragoza, during which the French sipped Spain to the fullest: while there was an opportunity, all Spaniards fought against them, including the civilian population of the city - women, children, old people ...
          Quote: Olgovich
          It’s impossible to cover everything, the article is interesting, thanks

          Well, thanks for the good rating. hi
          Quote: Olgovich
          so the article can be edited right up to the time of publication and during the queue ....

          As if yes, there is a button, and I even pressed it. But either a glitch, or so it should be - but I only had the cap available for editing, up to the heading "Spanish Infantry". Everything else was simply absent in the editing window request I tried it twice - the result is the same.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich April 25 2018 11: 28
            +2
            Quote: arturpraetor
            And the assault - most likely from the epic siege of Zaragoza, during which the French took a sip

            Exactly!
            Quote: arturpraetor
            As if yes, there is a button, and I even pressed it. But either a glitch, or so it should be - but I only had the cap available for editing, up to the heading "Spanish Infantry".

            The cap is edited separately, the text separately.
            Alternatively, send the updated article completely again hi
            1. arturpraetor
              April 25 2018 11: 38
              +4
              Quote: Olgovich
              The cap is edited separately, the text separately.

              I only had a hat from the text. Below was a window immediately indicating the author. Most likely, some kind of browser glitch, or even the topwar itself - later in the evening, instead of my profile, I threw it at someone else’s profile with articles on the REV laughing
              Quote: Olgovich
              Alternatively, send the updated article completely again

              "Late to drink Borjomi" recourse The article has already been published, and changing the material, IMHO, will be a little dishonest in relation to those who have already read it. Then, perhaps, I’ll write an addition if there is enough material. Although purely theoretically - after the article on the Guard, I have a cycle on the Spanish-American War in my thoughts, but it doesn’t work out with it yet: the first article is lazy, I’ve been writing in haste for a month now laughing
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich April 25 2018 12: 31
                +1
                Quote: arturpraetor
                Then, perhaps, I’ll write an addition if there is enough material. Although purely theoretically - after an article on the Guard, I have in my thoughts a cycle on the Spanish-American War,

                Good luck!
          2. Weyland
            Weyland April 25 2018 17: 17
            +3
            Quote: arturpraetor
            And the assault was most likely from the epic siege of Zaragoza, during which the French sipped Spain to the fullest: while there was an opportunity, all Spaniards fought against them, including the civilian population of the city - women, children, old people ...

            Moreover, the fortress of Zaragoza could be called a stretch: the height of the walls was only 3 meters! For those interested in details I recommend: Benito Perez Galdos, "Zaragoza" (the translation was published no matter how half a century ago, you can also download it on the Web)
    2. Weyland
      Weyland April 25 2018 17: 14
      0
      Quote: Olgovich
      Shelter is how? Captured, go?

      Probably. And many of these "sheltered" cunning landowners then turned into their serfs
  3. Knizhnik
    Knizhnik April 25 2018 09: 15
    +5
    Cazadores (casadores, Spanish. "Hunters") - accurate shooters, something like an analogue of Marxman, the huntsman, and they were armed with more accurate weapons. Tiradores (tiraradors, isp. "Arrows") - they are arrows. The term hostigadores, which is interpreted as “hunters, shooters,” as well as “pursuers,” is almost completely analogous to the Greek peltasts.
    1. arturpraetor
      April 25 2018 10: 57
      +3
      Quote: Knizhnik
      Cazadores (casadores, Spanish. "Hunters") - accurate shooters, something like an analogue of Marxman, the huntsman, and they were armed with more accurate weapons. Tiradores (tiraradors, isp. "Arrows") - they are arrows.

      The problem is that the use of cazadores and tiradores in Spanish sources from the time of Napoleonics (or modern ones about Napoleonics) is mixed; I suspect at that time these words were generally considered synonyms. In addition, the casadors are an analogue of the huntsman, but not the Marxman - for in the later times, the analogs of the Marxmanns are just the tiraradors (to be precise, the tirador designado is the designated shooter, he is also an infantry sniper with us). Separate units of tirades in the Spanish army, as far as I know, were more likely an exception to the rule than a regularity, and the peak of their popularity came just at the time of the Iberian War.
      Quote: Knizhnik
      The term hostigadores, which is interpreted as “hunters, shooters,” as well as “pursuers,” is almost completely analogous to the Greek peltasts.

      Most likely, the analogue of our word "skirmishers", uniting all varieties of shooters. By the way, Google translator loves this word very much, and sometimes translated it even as “harassers” and “perverts” wassat
      1. Knizhnik
        Knizhnik April 25 2018 11: 49
        +2
        In addition, casadors are an analogue of the huntsman, but not Marxman.

        Marxman as a profession appeared later, having grown from a sharpshooter; of course, these are “two big differences”, I just wanted to indicate the comparative position of the casador of that time in distance and accuracy, therefore I wrote “something like an analogue”.
        in later times, tiraradors are an analogue of Marxman (to be precise, tirador designado is a designated shooter, he is also an infantry sniper with us).

        A tirador designate is unambiguously a Marxman (more precisely, designated marksman), tracing paper from English, without taking into account historicity, in contrast to the simple "tirador" - a shooter.
        1. arturpraetor
          April 25 2018 12: 01
          +3
          Quote: Knizhnik
          Marxman as a profession appeared later, having grown from a sharpshooter; of course, these are “two big differences”, I just wanted to indicate the comparative position of the casador of that time in distance and accuracy, therefore I wrote “something like an analogue”.

          So yes, I do not argue - the casadores at that time were the light infantry of Spain. And the light infantry, as I think you know, is just about distance and accuracy.
          By the way, do you want to get a little confused? Officially, the Casador regiments on foot were listed as infanteria ligera - light infantry, but many regiments carried the word "casador" in their name. At the same time, officially cavalry regiments in Spain were light cavalry, but they did not carry the word "casador" in their names - not a single regiment, including regular ones, formed during the war wassat So, perhaps, it would be even more appropriate to consider the light cavalry as the cadadors, and the light infantry as the tiradors (actually the 22 regiment of the 100 formed during the war called themselves tirads). Although it’s better still not to separate these terms regarding Napoleonics.
          1. Knizhnik
            Knizhnik April 25 2018 12: 16
            +2
            Apparently, they themselves did not particularly bother with this topic, investing something else in this term. Based on the original concept of "hunter", then everything falls into place. There are different requirements for a foot and horse hunter.
            1. arturpraetor
              April 25 2018 12: 32
              +2
              Quote: Knizhnik
              Apparently, they themselves did not particularly bother on this topic.

              Probably. Moreover, this is not the only such case among the Spaniards - they and cuirassiers were listed along with other linear cavalry, which was without cuirasses, and they called anyone with ulans, despite the fact that they had no official ulans ...
              Quote: Knizhnik
              There are different requirements for a foot and horse hunter.

              Well, on the whole, horseback casadors and light infantry (casadores and tiraradors) had similar functions - shooting support for linear infantry in battle, pursuit of the enemy, reconnaissance. Perhaps this is precisely why the word stuck to both infantry and cavalry - that there, that there the main function is to shoot the enemy from afar, with well-aimed shots. Like hunting big game. In the end, in other armies there were similar counterparts - foot and horse rangers. The Spaniards simply did not clearly define the boundaries, and so ...
          2. Knizhnik
            Knizhnik April 25 2018 14: 03
            +1
            http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?460
            616-Spanish-regimental-names-1805-14
            On one resource I found a list of Spanish parts

            I found the phrase on the reconstruction site http://www.littlewars.se/ that until 1833 it had not yet become official, the infantry used the terms "tirarador" for shooters, "carabinero" for grenadiers and "cazador" for light infantry. In 1833, apparently, there was some kind of reform, you are not in the know?
            1. arturpraetor
              April 25 2018 14: 19
              +1
              Quote: Knizhnik
              On one resource I found a list of Spanish parts

              I have books in the scan (indicated in the sources) - in one list of parts for the 1808 year, in the other - formed during the war.
              Quote: Knizhnik
              I found the phrase on the reconstruction site http://www.littlewars.se/ that until the 1833 year it had not become official yet, the infantry used the terms "tirarador" for shooters, "carabinero" for grenadiers and "cazador" for light infantry.

              At the expense of the Carabinieri - unexpectedly. I have not seen anything like this in Spanish sources; in general, the word "carabinieri" itself did not apply to infantry. Unless it was about equestrian grenadiers. By the way, the cassador is correct: the Spanish language has different pronunciation rules than in English, and z is always read as with.
              Quote: Knizhnik
              In the 1833 year, apparently, there was some kind of reform, you are not in the know?

              Just the Beginning of the 1 Carlist War laughing In general, the reforms of the Spanish army after the 1815 year went on constantly, where the devil will break his leg, what, how and when. And the standard lack of specificity in Spanish terminology must be added. Battalions are called regiments, regiments are brigades, batteries are called companies (despite the fact that the company is an organization level higher) ... The list is long, add incomprehension to it with the terminology of the types of troops (casadora-tiradors, ulans that are not ulan, etc. .). Perhaps, somewhere in the 1833 year, Christinos just decided to streamline this matter under the guise of a civil war.
              1. Weyland
                Weyland April 25 2018 17: 21
                +2
                Quote: arturpraetor
                By the way, the cassador is correct: the Spanish language has different pronunciation rules than in English, and z is always read as p.

                And a hundred years ago it was transliterated with us as "c" lol
                Actually, it’s closest in pronunciation to English th (which we transliterate both as "z" and as "d", with Beth = Betsy, and Beth = Bess)
                1. arturpraetor
                  April 25 2018 17: 30
                  0
                  Quote: Weyland
                  In fact, it is closest in pronunciation to the English th (which we transliterate as “z” and “d”, with Beth = Betsy and Beth = Bess)

                  As it were, yes, but not quite - the English th has a sonorous (actually “z”) and a dull (“tooth s”) sound, while the Spanish z has only an analogue of the English deaf. So it’s worth pronouncing it all the same as with, i.e. casadors.
                  1. Weyland
                    Weyland April 25 2018 19: 59
                    +1
                    Quote: arturpraetor
                    So it’s worth pronouncing it all the same as with, i.e. casadors.

                    In my opinion, it would be closer to “c,” as they wrote in the old days (which provided the basis for the pun: “Donja Peretz and Donja Sol”) lol
                    1. arturpraetor
                      April 25 2018 20: 11
                      +1
                      No, q in Spanish - this is tz. In the old days, they didn’t really bother with the accuracy of pronunciation of words, I met a lot of examples. They took one language for the sample (most likely German), and distributed it to the rest, which they did not bother with and did not particularly encounter. Spanish is one of those. If you do not believe it, enter the word cazador in the Google translator and make the translator pronounce it in Spanish, you can clearly hear the "cassador" and not the "cazador", or even less the "cazador". Well, google the rules of the phonetics of the Spanish language - z is read ONLY as a tooth s, no s and c.
              2. Knizhnik
                Knizhnik April 26 2018 08: 30
                +1
                And the standard lack of specificity in Spanish terminology must be added.

                Yes, I also noticed laughing Thank you for the answers good
      2. Knizhnik
        Knizhnik April 25 2018 12: 06
        +3
        By the way, Google translator loves this word very much, and sometimes translated it even as “harassers” and “perverts”

        That's for sure, a whole bunch of links gave "about it" to search for hostigadores laughing
        1. arturpraetor
          April 25 2018 12: 16
          +4
          This is still a trifle - in order not to strain, I sometimes simply translated Google Chrome’s articles from Spanish (then, however, I checked with what was written in the original and manually translated - otherwise it’s a mess). And so, I’m reading a clumsy translation about light infantry, and there we get the end of a sentence like "but only perverts used this tactic". I almost had a tantrum laughing Shooting is for perverts, melee is for real men! good
          1. Knizhnik
            Knizhnik April 25 2018 12: 25
            +2
            Can you tell me something about hostigadores, how were they used?
            1. arturpraetor
              April 25 2018 12: 42
              +2
              Yes, it is rather the usual, unofficial designation of light infantry at all times. After all, that in ancient times, that in Napoleonik, the light infantry had similar functions - to fire at the enemy, not getting involved in close combat, supporting the actions of heavy (linear) infantry. In Antiquity, these were slingers, archers, and dart throwers; in Napoleon, they were various huntsmen, chasers, casadores, tirades, and others. Officially, hostigadores in Spain were not listed (the word was not found in the classification and names of regiments), but they often met this word in relation to light infantry, so I decided that it was worth mentioning.
  4. CentDo
    CentDo April 25 2018 10: 27
    +3
    But if in Russia the grenadiers were kept in separate regiments

    Can the author share the source of this information?
    As far as I remember, according to the state of 1802, the grenadier regiments consisted of one grenadier and two fusilier battalions, the musketeer regiments of one grenadier and two musketeers, the rangers of three jaegers. Since 1810, each battalion of an infantry regiment (of any) consisted of one grenadier company and three fusilier, musketeer, or huntsman (depending on the type of regiment).
    In the Russian army at the beginning of the 19th century there was one single regiment, completely consisting of grenadiers - Leib-Grenadier.
    1. arturpraetor
      April 25 2018 11: 03
      +3
      Quote: CentDo
      Can the author share the source of this information?

      At the time of Napoleonics - yes, the grenadier regiments were already approaching the infantry regiments as part of the general unification of the organization of regiments, but initially (in the 1763 year), as far as I know, there were only grenadier companies in the grenadier regiments. Then I just made a reservation and did not paint this moment in detail.
      1. CentDo
        CentDo April 25 2018 11: 22
        +2
        Let's take the 33th Yelets Regiment. Formed in 1763 as part of two battalions. Each battalion has one grenadier and 5 musketeer companies. The 34, 70, 71 infantry regiments are similar. These are the shelves that were formed in 1763.
        This is not only about the Grenadier regiments, but also about infantry. The fact that they also included grenadier companies. Therefore write
        But if in Russia the grenadiers were brought into separate regiments, then in Spain, like other Western Europe, the grenadiers gathered in fairly small units of qualitative reinforcement of infantry
        in my opinion is incorrect. Just because in the Russian army the grenadiers were also used to qualitatively strengthen the infantry regiments.
        1. arturpraetor
          April 25 2018 11: 29
          +3
          Quote: CentDo
          Let's take the 33th Yelets Regiment. Formed in 1763 as part of two battalions. Each battalion has one grenadier and 5 musketeer companies. The 34, 70, 71 infantry regiments are similar. These are the shelves that were formed in 1763.

          On the other hand, there is such information with reference to the "History of Russian infantry" by Ulyanov and Leonov: "Army regiments throughout the state of 1763 received a two-battalion 12 company organization. In each battalion, one company was grenadier, the other five were musketeers; in the grenadier regiments all companies were grenadier."
          Quote: CentDo
          Therefore, writing in my opinion is incorrect.

          Yes, I said - slip of the tongue, my mistake. It would be more correct to point out that yes, the grenadiers, as elsewhere, were used to qualitatively strengthen the infantry, but if in Russia, for example, the grenadier regiments were the maximum independent formation, then in Spain ... And hereinafter.
          1. CentDo
            CentDo April 25 2018 11: 40
            +4
            Yes, I said - slip of the tongue

            Ok, the question is closed.
            And thank you for the article. I will look forward to continuing on guard.
            1. arturpraetor
              April 25 2018 11: 46
              +3
              Thank you for reading hi
  5. Weyland
    Weyland April 25 2018 17: 13
    +2
    For those interested in this page of Spanish history, I recommend a fine writer named Benito Perez Galdos, the series "National Episodes" (it is not fully translated into Russian, I advise you to read the books "Trafalgar, March 19 and May 2, Bailen, Zaragoza, Girona (old translation is correct, of course. Girona), Cadiz.

    Those remaining loyal to Napoleon (about 4 thousand people) were waiting for the difficult fate of the Russian campaign of 1812, the battle of Borodino, death or captivity, and repatriation to Spain. In the fighting, they, contrary to past achievements in the division of La Romana, did not show themselves.
    But on this account Arturo Perez-Reverte ("In the Shadow of an Eagle") wrote best of all.
    1. arturpraetor
      April 25 2018 17: 19
      +2
      Quote: Weyland
      Girona (the old translation is correct, of course. Girona)

      Yes, actually right and so and so. Just Girona is the Spanish name, and Girona is Catalan. Both are in use at the same time. It happens even cooler - Basque Country in Spanish Pais Vasco, and in Basque - Euskadi. And also in use simultaneously are both terms.

      To the indicated list of literature I would also add the novel (albeit relatively short) by Arturo Perez-Reverte "Hussar". All the juice of the Iberian War from the French. It terrifies me with moments, and causes a smile (when the French claim that they lost under Bailen only because of the hot weather, but if it weren’t for the heat, they would give these Spaniards, how could it be otherwise!).
  6. The comment was deleted.
    1. arturpraetor
      April 25 2018 17: 32
      +2
      I already answered above - here my incorrect statement takes place. It was understood that in Russia the independent units of the grenadiers (up to the size of a regiment) were larger than in Spain (maximum battalion, and even that was rare).
  7. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk April 25 2018 17: 49
    +3
    It is unlikely that there is a region in military history that is more distant from me than the Spanish infantry :))) Nevertheless, I read the article with great pleasure and interest.
    Thank you! hi
    1. arturpraetor
      April 25 2018 18: 00
      +2
      Thank you, dear colleague hi
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      It is unlikely that there is a region in military history that is more distant from me than the Spanish infantry

      I think you still know a little less about the Zulu army of Chucky laughing
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk April 25 2018 18: 57
        +3
        Quote: arturpraetor
        I think you still know a little less about the Zulu army of Chucky

        yes about the same :))) But in general - no need for Zulus, this is my pain of the year with 1997 or something :)))) There was such a game, the civilization of 2. And then he sat down to play once with a friend, took to develop the UK. On the island, everything is as it should be. Developed, crushed the neighbors, built a pair of battleships (then the neighbors almost went on triremes), I felt cool, I went to explore the map. Suddenly - Zulus! No, well, seriously! Well, I ... of that, undertook to colonize with my two LCs. The squadron turned out to be stronger than I thought, but two LCs have two LCs - I crushed the defense of the Zulu shores, as befits a white man. Right now I think I’ll land and ...
        and the next move 14 (!!!) of very evil Zulu battleships comes to me ... In short, the linear Zulu fleet simply carried the mistress of the seas upside down, I didn’t have time to say “apchi” when the proud Zulu flag flew over London ... . laughing
        Since then I have been the Zulus ... like that ... of that .... in general, I respect laughing
        1. arturpraetor
          April 25 2018 19: 07
          +1
          laughing I played, it’s familiar. When it seems to have abruptly developed and outstripped a neighbor in development, you climb onto it, and from that air hordes of units appear from the air ... At such moments you begin to become a radical pacifist wassat