Military Review

So because of what the shopping center "Winter Cherry" caught fire. Media reports on the outcome of the investigation

104
The newspaper "Kommersant" comes out with a material in which it is stated about the established cause of the fire in the Kemerovo shopping and entertainment center "Winter Cherry". At the same time, the publication refers to sources at the fire examination research center of the St. Petersburg University of the State Fire Service EMERCOM of Russia. Specialists of this particular center were engaged in the examination in the shopping center "Winter Cherry".


Kommersant citing a source reports that a short circuit caused by a leaking roof led to a fire. Melt water was inside the building, while the circuit breakers installed precisely for protection against short circuit and overload in the network did not work. For whatever reason, the operation did not occur, not reported.

So because of what the shopping center "Winter Cherry" caught fire. Media reports on the outcome of the investigation


After the short circuit occurred, a plastic chandelier caught fire on a children's “dry pool” with foam cubes. The spread of fire could have been avoided if the staff immediately turned off the ventilation, as instructed in such cases. However, the ventilation was not turned off, and the air entering the building fanned out the fire. Within a few minutes, the rooms on the 4 floor were shrouded in acrid smoke and spreading fire. At the same time, the fire alarm system worked, but the burning area was not flooded with water, as the previously frozen water supply was blocked.

Recall that the terrible tragedy in the city of Kemerovo claimed 64 life.
Photos used:
lysva.ru
104 comments
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  1. koksalek
    koksalek April 16 2018 18: 37
    +33
    Bravo to the supremacy of Business over security and intelligence! The main thing is that Business can hammer its profits with a large sledgehammer and the laws will somehow adjust it so that nothing interferes with this process
    1. Looking Petrovich
      Looking Petrovich April 16 2018 18: 48
      +24
      Quote: koksalek
      Bravo to the supremacy of Business over security and intelligence! The main thing is that Business can hammer its profits with a large sledgehammer and the laws will somehow adjust it so that nothing interferes with this process

      Is it just business to blame? In Russia, it was always like in the proverb about 7 nannies: they will scout a bunch of inspectors and supervisors, but there’s no benefit — just an imitation of violent activity. Remember the Examiner Gogol. Nothing has changed in 200 years. The whole rotten system of checks and stupid to idiocy system of unnecessary reporting to anyone.
      1. koksalek
        koksalek April 16 2018 18: 58
        +12
        I partly agree with you, but, for myself, I have long understood that business is <=> power, they have grown together tightly and tightly, we all see the consequences. And with Gogol, yes, I read it again, just the other day I read Dead Souls again with pleasure.
      2. NIKNN
        NIKNN April 16 2018 19: 32
        +14
        Quote: Looking Petrovich
        Is it just business to blame? In Russia, it was always like in the proverb about 7 nannies: they will scout a bunch of inspectors and supervisors, but there’s no benefit — just an imitation of violent activity.

        If a person is talented, then he is talented in everything .... The situation is the same with idiots.
    2. zart_arn
      zart_arn April 16 2018 18: 51
      +10
      “Bravo” Not only to business, but also to the “vertical of power”. Her slowness, corruption and sloppiness is perhaps the main reason for the tragedy.
    3. Mar.Tirah
      Mar.Tirah April 16 2018 18: 55
      +7
      “Kommersant” doesn’t respect oneself. Guessing over the coffee grounds, who will surpass anyone. The Investigative Committee talked about a closed power cable in between floors. The investigation will figure it out, of course, but corruption in the Ministry of Emergencies due to such fraud and disregard for PB rules certainly rolls over .
  2. Thrall
    Thrall April 16 2018 18: 37
    +3
    Is the media definitely not substituting anything? Maybe the court is not needed?
    1. Heterocapsa
      Heterocapsa April 16 2018 18: 48
      +16
      Sit down, sit down, don’t worry. And meltwater will sit down and the machines that did not work.
      1. andrej-shironov
        andrej-shironov April 17 2018 09: 11
        +1
        laughing That's for sure! At this time, the true "potential sitters" are rubbing their wet hands and rejoice at how they once again managed to lead the people.
  3. antivirus
    antivirus April 16 2018 18: 46
    +6
    strictly based on Utesov’s song: "the cabbage is limp, but the rest is a beautiful marquise .."
    our business has not risen to the level of a builder of a new world.
    just wash the dough. The owners of life are others and are not responsible for the development of the vital forces of peoples and "competencies"
    someone wanted to give everything into the hands of the free market.
    take coals (from children) in your palms and carry your cross to build a market democracy.
    it’s easier to comply with laws previously written in blood, but without the approval of Uncle Sam’s laws, they are not market and ineffective ..
    did not want to live with their people and in their own country.

    how were rural clubs built before? and dancing in them?
    how much more did the club deer get than the accordion player, the mass entertainer?
    28 years have been talking about the wrong way. here they arrived.
    1. svp67
      svp67 April 16 2018 18: 56
      +5
      Quote: antivirus
      our business has not risen to the level of a builder of a new world.

      But it copes with the construction of the "old" ... especially in London.
  4. taiga2018
    taiga2018 April 16 2018 18: 48
    +5
    and how many more such malls throughout the country with leaking roofs, with non-working automatic machines, with formal checks, including after this tragedy ...
    1. andrej-shironov
      andrej-shironov April 17 2018 09: 12
      0
      So another one has already burned down in Arkhangelsk today.
    2. bazzbazz
      bazzbazz April 17 2018 10: 23
      0
      And it infuriates that the children's pool is made of such combustible materials! understandably the roof was flowing, automatic machines, the pazharka did not work, but if not for this pool, then perhaps we managed to avoid the tragedy! I hope after this case they will establish real, current standards for combustible materials ...
  5. Stas1973
    Stas1973 April 16 2018 18: 51
    +15
    Rave. Complete nonsense. If the machines do not knock out, they burn out. Followed by opening the circuit. At the same time, dried-up insulation of the wiring can burn, if it was originally made to stop a hundred years ago without observing any installation standards. BUT!!! In this case, in any case, the PPZ should have worked (alarm, sprinklers, etc., including the same fire extinguishers, even with fright, visitors had to find and apply them). The article is a complete kitchen.
    1. reservist
      reservist April 16 2018 20: 27
      +4
      But how long does it take for the machine to burn out?
      I don’t pin up, it’s really interesting ...
      they kind of wrote about the alarm that it was constantly turned off due to frequent false alarms
      so that irrigators could work in the system, after all, should there be water? but where does it come from when the water supply is blocked ... and pouring water into live wiring is probably not the best idea ...
    2. Victor_B
      Victor_B April 16 2018 21: 08
      +6
      Quote: Stas1973
      If the machines do not knock out, they burn out. Followed by opening the circuit.

      Where do you get such grass?
      Complete nonsense!
      Well, the fact that the machine did not turn off ... It happens.
      Either the wrong choice (short circuit current too low), or its malfunction.
      Rather too long and thin line with an overestimated face value of the machine.
    3. NordUral
      NordUral April 17 2018 00: 47
      +2
      Also, disinformation hiding arson, or rather diversion. A simple fire could not flare up and spread so quickly.
      1. Victor_B
        Victor_B April 17 2018 08: 31
        0
        About the spread of fire - here I completely agree.
        But where and what exactly did that spark fall from, or rather, could they have arisen in a commercial quantity if the protection even worked correctly?
        Most likely it didn’t really work or worked with a very long delay.
        And for the experiment, just take a piece of cotton wool, wrap it with a piece of cord with its bare ends slightly touching, and poke it into a power outlet. Bah! and knocked out the machine! (I hope so!)
        And after all, ICHS will be lit with cotton! But if the short-circuit current is less than 3 times the value of the thermal setpoint, then the shutdown time can stretch to MINUTES!
      2. bazzbazz
        bazzbazz April 17 2018 10: 30
        0
        The pool is to blame for everything. Other versions can not be thrown back of course! but this pool burns like gunpowder! In a few minutes we get a sea of ​​fire and smoke.
    4. Svetlana
      Svetlana April 17 2018 12: 04
      +1
      Quote: Stas1973
      The article is a complete kitchen.

      hi
      Even a layman understands that all too quickly blazed. And, as luck would have it, on this day the maximum number of children was, and blazed in the children's zone, also, as luck would have it. And yet, as luck would have it, the doors were locked. And also, as luck would have it, the fire alarm did not work. And yet, as luck would have it, firefighters rode for a long time. And yet, as luck would have it, the stew was tuned for a long time. And also, as luck would have it, the stew began not where the children were. Are there too many tragic coincidences at a time? But this is not a complete list of them! In my opinion, this is not pulling on negligence, not sloppiness, and not on the thirst for the maximum profit of businessmen, although this too played its evil role.
  6. Herculesic
    Herculesic April 16 2018 18: 51
    +5
    I'd like to hear the official version from those involved in the investigation, in order to exclude speculation on the tragedy, so that some media would not raise their ratings on someone else’s grief.
    1. Titsen
      Titsen April 17 2018 06: 23
      +1
      Quote: Herkulesich
      I'd like to hear the official version from those involved in the investigation, in order to exclude speculation on the tragedy, so that some media would not raise their ratings on someone else’s grief.


      For what?

      You still can’t find out the truth!
      1. Simargl
        Simargl April 17 2018 07: 02
        0
        Quote: Titsen
        You still can’t find out the truth!
        Those. Do you think that folk rumor will better understand the issue?
        1. Svetlana
          Svetlana April 17 2018 12: 06
          +1
          Quote: Simargl
          Quote: Titsen
          You still can’t find out the truth!
          Those. Do you think that folk rumor will better understand the issue?

          This has been happening recently. We have not heard the truth from any incident for many years.
  7. senima56
    senima56 April 16 2018 18: 52
    +5
    Yeah! Who would doubt: “Short circuit” (“piloting error”, “equipment malfunction”, “domestic gas explosion”, etc.) - on-duty phrases, and most importantly, “there are no perpetrators” !!!
    1. reservist
      reservist April 16 2018 20: 29
      +2
      if not, if the building maintenance service is responsible for the state of the power grid?
      1. senima56
        senima56 April 16 2018 23: 52
        +5
        Did you hear what our head of Russia’s IC told the President? I quote literally: "The cause of the fire (!!!!) is the malfunction of the fire extinguishing system." I almost fell under the table from such "pearls" of the head of the Investigative Committee of Russia!
        1. reservist
          reservist April 17 2018 12: 45
          0
          found the record of the first channel’s transmission, looked
          the plot was made "cut", it seemed that before Bastrykin’s words it was probably about why the fire was not localized and there was a fire of this magnitude

          found Bastrykin’s not “cut” record with a transcript
          The most important task that we have practically completed is the completion of the inspection of the scene of the accident, where there was a fire.

          Two main versions are being put forward: this is a malfunction of the fire safety system, and the second version, which is put forward by the persons who are brought to criminal responsibility by us, is officials and specialists, they argue that self-arson is possible using open fire.

          Our first results show that this is an unlikely version. Of greater importance, more promising, more important and more reliable is the malfunction of the fire extinguishing system, the prevention and elimination of the source of fire.

          kremlin.ru/events/president/news/57144
  8. svp67
    svp67 April 16 2018 18: 53
    +6
    at the same time, circuit breakers installed specifically for protection against short-circuit and overloads in the network did not work.
    Well, thank God they found the GUILTY - circuit breaker. So, I understand that the pen was blamed for the fact that the building was not used for its intended purpose and was rebuilt with violations, it was she who signed the permit and the act of reception ...
    1. free
      free April 16 2018 19: 47
      +1
      Quote: svp67
      at the same time, circuit breakers installed specifically for protection against short-circuit and overloads in the network did not work.
      Well, thank God they found the GUILTY - circuit breaker. So, I understand that the pen was blamed for the fact that the building was not used for its intended purpose and was rebuilt with violations, it was she who signed the permit and the act of reception ...

      And who do you think is to blame?
      1. svp67
        svp67 April 16 2018 19: 56
        +1
        Quote: free
        And who do you think is to blame?

        This is what I would like to hear from the investigation. Each state of emergency has its own surname name and patronymic ...
      2. Victor_B
        Victor_B April 16 2018 21: 12
        +3
        There is such a preventive procedure - a periodic check of the protection operation (it used to be called phase-zero loop resistance measurement).
        Personally, I wrote out thousands of protocols for such checks. Measurements were made by my workers.
        1. Simargl
          Simargl April 17 2018 07: 08
          0
          Quote: Victor_B
          There is such a preventive procedure - a periodic check of the protection operation
          To begin with, you need to correctly draw up a diagram. Usually
          just loading machines.
          Quote: Victor_B
          used to be called phase-zero loop resistance metering
          This is somewhat different: with this parameter, you can calculate whether the protection will work or not. Accordingly, it is possible to understand whether the circuit was correctly composed and whether the parameters were worsened: by the changes made or by the contacts not tightened.
          1. Victor_B
            Victor_B April 17 2018 08: 22
            0
            That is, you explain it to me?
            A person who has worked for 20 years as the head of the electrical measuring laboratory of a power network in an almost million city? I personally made THOUSAND of these measurements!
            I was a hundred times a member of the commission for taking tests on PTE and PTB and my favorite question that I asked thousands of times was: "What is the difference between grounding and grounding." Professionals working in the existing HIGH-VOLTAGE installations and have NEVER received the correct, detailed answer! Only my men from the laboratory could say something intelligible.
            1. Simargl
              Simargl April 17 2018 12: 56
              0
              Not. Those who think that the “periodic verification of the protection operation” is “measuring the resistance of the phase-zero loop”.
              In general, for shields where there are no protection terminals, the first phrase is slightly incorrect.
              Am I saying something wrong?
              1. Victor_B
                Victor_B April 17 2018 19: 09
                0
                Not. Those who think that the “periodic verification of the protection operation” is “measuring the resistance of the phase-zero loop”.
                These are essentially synonyms.
                The M-417 device was called so, and it was he who measured the phase-zero loop resistance from 0,1 ohms to 2 ohms. After that, 220 V is divided by the obtained value and a short-circuit current is obtained.
                By the way, a very convenient device. Since the 60s it has not been released, but we still use it, since there are no troubles with it with the operation of the protection.
                Modern instruments measure immediately in short-circuit current, but are less convenient.
                The same is measured, but the result in other units is displayed.
                Direct short-circuit current measurement is performed only in studies.
                1. Simargl
                  Simargl April 17 2018 19: 18
                  0
                  Quote: Victor_B
                  These are essentially synonyms.
                  Well, as synonyms, if the check is not limited to just measuring the F-0 loop, because you must definitely load the AB, and this is not the M-417, but Retom, for example.
                  1. Victor_B
                    Victor_B April 18 2018 02: 01
                    0
                    Well, as synonyms, if the check is not limited to just measuring the F-0 loop, because you must definitely load the AB, and this is not the M-417, but Retom, for example.
                    No, not necessarily!
                    Only machines with large ratings are loaded (AVM-10, 15, for example). There are problems there, the current 3-4KA for verification is already difficult to obtain, but such checks are few. Almost units.
                    So, if in this shopping center the verification of the operation of the protection has ever been carried out, it is only before commissioning.
                    1. Simargl
                      Simargl April 18 2018 02: 04
                      0
                      In any case, without an RCD, the entire cable could burn there, but the AB could not work, even the worker and with the correct rating.
                      1. Victor_B
                        Victor_B April 18 2018 02: 52
                        0
                        RCD has no protection against short circuit and overload.
                        It works only if there is a leak from the phase TO EARTH or the fifth (for 3 f) or the third (for 2 f).
                        Such networks appeared only in the 90s.
                        All networks until (conditionally) 90 g. Were carried out by 4 or 2-wire.
                        10 years is no longer in the topic (in Canada), maybe in the PUE changes have been made about the mandatory installation of RCDs, but earlier it was only recommended.
                        About 12 years ago, the first training manual for checking RCDs and the form of the protocol only appeared.
                    2. Simargl
                      Simargl April 18 2018 03: 05
                      0
                      Quote: Victor_B
                      RCD has no protection against short circuit and overload
                      Я I knowWhat is an RCD and how it works!
                      Accordingly, I I know conditions for its operation.
                      But you continue to stubbornly believe that I consider RCDs to be more reliable protection against short-circuit wassat
                      Quote: Simargl
                      In any case, without an RCD, the entire cable could burn there, but the AB could not work
                      How else can you hint that for AB there was not enough leakage current during insulation breakdown? But the leakage current to the tray, for example, could be enough. This is the current that "catches", just the RCD. You can compare 0,3A (this is not for people, right?) RCDs and 10 ... 16 ... 25 .... 100 (and also take into account the overload) And the rated current AB ?!
                      What is wrong?
                      1. Victor_B
                        Victor_B April 18 2018 04: 45
                        0
                        Let's separate the flies from the cutlets.
                        If the lamp turned on, then there was a 16 A submachine gun, it could have worked, but in more time. Short circuit could be on the body, but it could be zero. If the RCD does not work at zero, it should theoretically not work.
                        Further, I do not know and will not specify for which max current 3-phase RCDs are produced, but relatively small (like 50 amperes I saw max because there are already leakage currents of more than 100 mA).
                        Further, the price of the issue. Here, in the bourgeoisie, the RCD by codes is put only on sockets if they are closer than 5 or 6 feet (sort of) to the sink in the kitchen or toilet. They are made directly in the form and dimensions of a standard socket, only with a button in the middle. This "button" is worth about 20 bucks (without it a penny). Nobody puts them on the lighting circuit even here. On group floor guards they are not there either, even here.
                        I am sure that our PUE (I do not know for sure, for it is already unnecessary) does not require lighting.
                        Now a stupid question. Have you ever seen a floor shield with an RCD, at least with a group at the input? I have never seen.
                        But in the 10 years that I’m not in the topic, the requirements could have changed, but this only applies to RELEASED ELECTRICAL INSTALLATIONS, and those that are not concerned for 50 years. At all!
                        Yes, and how many years of operation of this shopping center, if 10 years, then there UZO in general could even be not provided for in the project.
                    3. Simargl
                      Simargl April 18 2018 05: 12
                      +1
                      Quote: Victor_B
                      If the lamp turned on, then there was a 16 A submachine gun, it could have worked, but in more time.
                      I already wrote somewhere: a fire could have arisen from a breakdown of insulation, and this breakdown might not give enough current for the AB to operate.
                      Quote: Victor_B
                      Here in the bourgeoisie, the RCD by codes is put only on outlets if they are closer than 5 or 6 feet (sort of) to the sink in the kitchen or toilet
                      These are those that protect a person from electric shock, i.e. 30mA or less.
                      Quote: Victor_B
                      Now a stupid question. Have you ever seen a floor shield with an RCD, at least with a group at the input? I have never seen.
                      I have a UZO 100mA in the country tongue
                      Quote: Victor_B
                      Further, I do not know and will not specify for which max current 3-phase RCDs are produced, but relatively small
                      We have 300mA.
                      1. Victor_B
                        Victor_B April 18 2018 05: 27
                        +1
                        I have a UZO 100mA in the country
                        Well, it means it’s not itself, but here the OBLIGATION at the dachas of (all) RCDs, but with verification is fantastic.
                        The question is whether in the project (in fact) in the shopping center the requirements of the PUE were met?
                        If meets the requirements - no questions. The presence of protocols relieves the responsibility of the staff, if there is no evil Pinocchio to itself!
                        Were the protection tests carried out during the commissioning of the facility and during operation, or were the protocols simply stupidly rewritten and were there any?
                        What kind of "cable" passed over the room and why did he while away? For the cable in the water to lie quite comfortable.
                        If the lamp is short, then ... see above.
                        For RCD in the country you +. wink
  9. Kelwin
    Kelwin April 16 2018 18: 59
    +7
    Some kind of snowstorm. Melt water, dead assault rifles, a chandelier ... it’s either nonsense of a journalist, or just nonsense. I’ll go cut the wiring under the root, and then suddenly a short circuit, and the chandelier is also plastic, and the kettle ...
    1. Simargl
      Simargl April 18 2018 02: 05
      0
      Quote: KelWin
      I'll go cut the wiring under the root
      Candles are more fire hazard!
  10. bald
    bald April 16 2018 19: 03
    +3
    So what was there for such an installation of the shield? !!! Even a simple circuit has, which is forbidden for such complexes, already has two circuit breakers in the circuit (not counting the general). Who handed over - who accepted ?!
    1. XXXIII
      XXXIII April 16 2018 20: 02
      +3
      Quote: bald
      So what was there for such an installation of the shield? !!! Even a simple circuit has, which is forbidden for such complexes, already has two circuit breakers in the circuit (not counting the general). Who handed over - who accepted ?!
      In principle, it could be this, the machine was hired high, it’s easier to say a nail is standing instead of the machine, in this case the car doesn’t even twitch, everything burns out to the shield .... hi
      1. bald
        bald April 16 2018 20: 41
        +6
        Let one stick (even a new one is not uncommon), it is the last one and it has not been knocked out. In this group there is a common - even 80 A - it will be knocked out only this way with K \ Z, with a wire of 1.5 squares. But there is also RAM, and a general automatic shield or fusible inserts. In short, blame on the machine - the easiest. Only here I indicated three levels of protection. I’m silent about the fire alarm (since it’s already late) - which automatically disables the machines. The complex is serious, it turns out the change was purely on paper.
        1. XXXIII
          XXXIII April 16 2018 21: 18
          +1
          Quote: bald
          In short, blame on the machine - the easiest.

          I agree! good
        2. Simargl
          Simargl April 17 2018 07: 28
          0
          Quote: bald
          Let one stick (even a new one is not uncommon), it is the last one and it has not been knocked out. In this group there is a common - even 80 A - it will be knocked out only this way with K \ Z, with a wire of 1.5 squares.
          Bullshit! I watched as a VVG4x4 cable burned in the rain (at a construction site a temporary hut is almost always from a used second-hand cable), protection - AB 25A + 100A fuses. Two minutes burned until it happened metallic closure (guess what it is).
          Quote: bald
          But there is also RAM, and a general automatic shield or fusible inserts.
          We did not see assembly and cable - we cannot reason. An RCD or a differential machine could not have been. Fusible inserts ... the most oak protection. Plus one - does not stick.
          Quote: bald
          I’m silent about the fire alarm (since it’s already late) - which automatically turns off the machines
          Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! Even if a circuit with independent releases were assembled, the automation would be turned off - 100%!, Since the shopping center would constantly plunge into darkness with false positives.
          Quote: “Kommersant” with reference to the source
          Meltwater was inside the building, while the circuit breakers installed specifically for protection against short-circuit and overloads in the network did not work. For what reason, the operation did not occur, is not reported.
          The reason for the failure is the absence of a fire protection RCD (100-300mA differential current) and / or insufficient current when shorting through an insulation breakdown.
          At the same time, the fire alarm went off, but the burning zone was not flooded with water, as the previously frozen fire water supply was blocked.
          A dry pipe with a supercharger pump and / or a pipeline heating would solve the problem, but ...
          1. bald
            bald April 17 2018 08: 22
            0
            VVG 4 x 4 - holds up to 32 A - depending on the quality of the copper. Immediately the question - was the cable cable 380 or 220? Well and automatic machines - 3 or single-phase? Was the shield with machine guns in a dry place?
            1. XXXIII
              XXXIII April 17 2018 10: 14
              +1
              Quote: bald
              VVG 4 x 4 - holds up to 32 A - depending on the quality of the copper. Immediately the question - was the cable cable 380 or 220? Well and automatic machines - 3 or single-phase? Was the shield with machine guns in a dry place?

              Yes, everything is simpler here, the machine must protect the cable, if the cable caught fire, melted, then the rating of the machine did not correspond to the cross-section of the cable., Which means that such a mess could have been in distribution networks, that mom do not cry. In this case, it could break out anywhere .... hi
            2. Simargl
              Simargl April 17 2018 13: 09
              0
              Quote: bald
              VVG 4 x 4 - holds up to 32 A - depending on the quality of the copper.
              laughing Well yes, it depends. It depends more on the laying method. And how much the line will hold depends on the resistance of the phase-zero loop (see above - there is a mention), i.e. if it is not low enough, the circuit breaker may not work. In addition, I mentioned a metal circuit. The short circuit in the cable may not be metallic - in a conductive medium as a result of insulation failure, when the resistance at the circuit is not equal to zero (when metallic, when the wires touch each other or the ground electrode, it will become zero).
              Quote: bald
              Immediately the question - was the cable cable 380 or 220? Well and automatic machines - 3 or single-phase? Was the shield with machine guns in a dry place?
              - Never mind,
              - never mind,
              - in our case - it doesn’t matter.
              1. bald
                bald April 17 2018 13: 32
                0
                Are you talking about construction? Maybe you thought - that the cable was burning - well, it started to warm up, the steam was on and why are the questions not important? I was not there and did not see everything with my own eyes, well, like you on the bill.
          2. XXXIII
            XXXIII April 17 2018 10: 29
            +1
            Quote: Simargl
            Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! Even if a circuit with independent releases were assembled, the automation would be turned off - 100%!, Since the shopping center would constantly plunge into darkness with false positives.

            Yes, no, ShchAO worked until it reached the main switchboard of the floor, so the main switchboard of the floor would cut down the entire floor, along with all the systems, ventilation, fire, would completely deenergize the floor.
            Quote: Simargl
            I’m silent about the fire alarm (since it’s already late) - which automatically turns off the machines
            Yes, the fire system cannot de-energize the network, the electricity network is the main source of electricity, it protects itself and other energy systems, etc. Just a fire could be in the emergency system circuit, for example, a ventilation engine ....
          3. Victor_B
            Victor_B April 17 2018 19: 27
            0
            Fusible inserts ... the most oak protection.
            Well, it’s you who got excited. FUSES ONLY can protect against short-circuit shock by switching off at the first half-cycle. Nothing more! But! An important addition is if standard, calibrated inserts are installed.
            But this is a rare occurrence! More often bugs, or even bugs!
          4. Victor_B
            Victor_B April 17 2018 19: 38
            0
            The reason for the failure is the absence of a fire protection RCD (100-300mA differential current) and / or insufficient current when shorting through an insulation breakdown.
            There is no such letter in the word! (FROM)
            RCD does not protect against overload and short circuit from the word "in general". Only from touching current-carrying parts and breakdown to grounded parts (cases).
            Well
            fire protection RCD
            it's five!
            Having a firefighter requirement does not mean that it is fire fighting!
            It protects people from the action of current. If you have the correct installation, as well as verification, not just by pressing a button on the RCD, but by actually measuring the leakage current. ChSKH how many times did not measure - it is practically almost exactly according to the setpoint and works! Almost without scatter, in contrast to automatic machines, which had to be loaded repeatedly with primary current.
            Those. if you stupidly touch the phase under voltage - it turns off instantly!
            1. Simargl
              Simargl April 18 2018 02: 12
              0
              Quote: Victor_B
              RCD does not protect against overload and short circuit from the word "in general".
              Did I say something about overload? "100-300mA differential current" - this does not apply to overload at all. Not this way?
              Quote: Victor_B
              Only by touching current-carrying parts and breakdown to grounded parts (enclosures).
              HERE! More precisely, when current flows from live parts to grounded (not necessarily metallic short-circuit), including touch.
              Quote: Victor_B
              It protects people from the action of current.
              300mA ?!
              Therefore, it is called fire fighting because a person will die in cramps, but it will not turn off.
              1. Victor_B
                Victor_B April 18 2018 05: 00
                0
                Non-releasing current 20 mA, lethal 100 mA, action time is important.
                Any machine protects BY QUICK OFF.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  11. XXXIII
    XXXIII April 16 2018 19: 19
    +1
    installed specifically for protection against short circuit and network congestion, did not work. For what reason, the operation did not occur, is not reported.
    It’s not possible to check, but you can tell ... It doesn’t fit like that, then another protection should have worked and turned off the entire floor. Although if the power systems of the entire center were not correctly distributed, then it could be so. This means that the security has nothing to do with it, the fault of the design and maintenance, the service team is the first to answer, as it could arbitrarily make changes to the electricity network .... crying
    1. Simargl
      Simargl April 17 2018 07: 34
      0
      Quote: XXXIII
      It doesn’t fit like that, then another protection should work and disconnect the whole floor.
      It doesn’t fit like that, then another protection should have worked and turned off the entire floor. Not a floor, but a group. And that is not necessary: ​​we do not know what cable it was. And if the machine should knock it out - you can check: spoil the insulation on the cable with the plug, pour water into the bucket and dip the included cable. Less than 2x1 should not be taken - you can burn the outlet.
      And the experiment should be carried out by a specialist.
      1. XXXIII
        XXXIII April 17 2018 10: 05
        +1
        Quote: Simargl
        Not a floor, but a group.

        Yes, it’s understandable, just if it slipped through, it means the next protection was to cut down, a floor or a shield-1-2, etc. ..... Just a conversation about the fact that there was a network of electric networks and there was some kind of protection, but conversations as if there were power lines stretched under the ceiling ...... hi
        1. Simargl
          Simargl April 17 2018 12: 45
          0
          Quote: XXXIII
          and conversations as if there were power lines stretched under the ceiling ..
          Well ... rather, the old cables, which are about 40 years old, were involved.
          1. XXXIII
            XXXIII April 17 2018 13: 33
            +1
            Quote: Simargl
            Well ... rather, the old cables, which are about 40 years old, were involved.

            If the force agrees, they are quite expensive ... Example; Cable VVGNG (A) -LS 5x50 (N, PE) -0,66 1 671.17 rub. per m + 100m = 167.117R. not weak, you can save, the footage in the shopping center allows ... yes
            VVGng (A) -LS;
            B - PVC core insulation;
            B - external protective sheath made of PVC;
            G - naked (lack of protective cover);
            ng - not spreading combustion during group laying;
            LS - reduced smoke emission during combustion.
            1. Simargl
              Simargl April 17 2018 13: 44
              +1
              Quote: XXXIII
              VVGng (A) -LS 5x50
              belay Cut without a knife !!!
              Yes, this cable from the drum in color-met surrender!
              Five!!! lived, and even copper ... wassat
              Maximum AVVGng 3x70 + 1x35!
  12. Salomet
    Salomet April 16 2018 19: 19
    +4
    In his homeland, he ran into one number from electricians. In automatic machines for 25 Amperes, nutoro was rearranged with 50A automation.
    The second question is if the machine didn’t de-energize the shopping and entertainment center from an open fire faucet, I don’t know where and where we have protection until the power supply lines of the outlets are de-energized. Only the emergency lighting line of the building remains.
    hi
    1. reservist
      reservist April 16 2018 20: 36
      0
      Quote: Salomet
      In automatic machines for 25 Amperes, nutoro was rearranged with 50A automation.

      in the private sector? to get around the 5 kW “one-handed” limit?
      with private vending machines, private owners sometimes “chemize”, but they put “honest” machines on consumer groups
      1. Salomet
        Salomet April 16 2018 21: 21
        +2
        Yes, in private, but the company one with me "wanted it", I honestly was shocked because the cable section did not change ..
        1. reservist
          reservist April 17 2018 12: 50
          0
          to put 50A machines on wiring under 25A? Well, woodpeckers ...
    2. bald
      bald April 17 2018 02: 01
      0
      But because the "experts" are sculpting, who is what much. The smoke exhaust and fire extinguishing system should not be switched off in case of fire. For this, cables with thermal protection are used, excluding the fusion of cores.
  13. Cheshire Cat
    Cheshire Cat April 16 2018 19: 39
    0
    Good evening. All that is written about KZ is all a lie. Circuit breakers and melt water did not work. Melt water is an insulator in itself; it does not cause a short circuit. Maybe I'm wrong about melt water, but the machines should work and the cable in such buildings is laid FRLS is not combustible and does not cause smoke.
    1. Flatter
      Flatter April 16 2018 21: 06
      +1
      Melt water is not necessarily clean. Rather, the snow on the roof melted regularly due to poor insulation and what kind of water was draining down the walls and cables is unknown. Electricians were obliged to see this.
      1. Simargl
        Simargl April 17 2018 07: 39
        0
        Quote: Flatter
        Electricians had to see it.
        Electricians should not give a damn if the cable is laid correctly! The main thing is that the water does not fall into the shields!
    2. DRIVEX
      DRIVEX April 16 2018 22: 04
      +1
      Mdaaa ... one more ... Since when did the water, even melted, even distilled, flowing through a leaky roof, through dust, dirt, sand be an insulator.?
      1. Vladimirovich_4
        Vladimirovich_4 April 17 2018 03: 54
        0
        Pure distilled water is really a serious dielectric. Conductivity achieved by impurities and electrolytic dissociation
  14. g1v2
    g1v2 April 16 2018 19: 57
    +1
    All this does not explain the blocking of fire exits. As a rule, they are automatically unlocked when a fire alarm is triggered. And again blocked when it is turned off. The only real explanation is that the alarm was manually turned off. This automatically blocks the fire exits. That is, the security turned it off and it led like blocking the doors. Most likely they thought it was a false positive, and when they realized that a real fire, they panicked and forgot to turn it on. In general, my IMHO, but as it was real, the investigation will determine.
  15. jrvp79
    jrvp79 April 16 2018 20: 07
    +3
    This time the people will not believe the authorities, as if the latter had not been clever. Therefore, you need to prepare for change.
  16. Arabfun
    Arabfun April 16 2018 20: 43
    0
    "The great book of nature is open to all, and in this great book so far ... only the first pages have been read" Dmitry Pisarev

    "... nature ruthlessly mocks our ignorance." Anatole France.

    "Art is the nature of man; nature is the art of God." Philip Bailey.

    just to understand what we are dealing with ... generally I advise everyone to build a summer house and you will understand
  17. Beltasir matyagu
    Beltasir matyagu April 16 2018 20: 43
    +2
    Safety instructions and rules are written in blood on corpses. Who does not observe them is not a human being.
  18. past
    past April 16 2018 20: 43
    +5
    Quote: Cheshire Cat
    Good evening. All that is written about KZ is all a lie. Circuit breakers and melt water did not work. Melt water is an insulator in itself; it does not cause a short circuit. Maybe I'm wrong about melt water, but the machines should work and the cable in such buildings is laid FRLS is not combustible and does not cause smoke.

    Sorry to interfere, but the cable in "such buildings" is laid so that it can be laid for the amount that remains after cutting the budget on the part of the customer, after the subcontractor rolls back to the general contractor, then after the subcontractor rolls back to the subcontractor, then after the foreman, who compensates for his low the sub-contractor’s salary and premium cuts will also take some of the amount.
    As a result, hard-working migrant workers lay that cable and install the machines that the foreman stole the roofing felts somewhere bought the roofing felts ...
    And as a result, we have what we have!
  19. Lev Bronsch
    Lev Bronsch April 16 2018 20: 58
    +2
    Enchanting nonsense !! Designed for those who do not exist in the children's play areas of the shopping center. Yes, children are jumping on trampolines, BUT! Nearby are always mothers, grandparents, fathers ... Often the number of adults is more than the number of children on a trampoline !! And now all these people, according to the investigation, are completely stupid people and oligophrenics who watch the chandelier light up (Chandelier, Karl !!), yeah, apparently the situation was happening at least in the Hermitage ... further, they calmly watch the foam rubber start to burn and they don’t do anything until the fire broke out before there was nothing to breathe ... And only after that they grabbed an armful of children and fled from the over-smoked room. These are the people in Kemerovo understand the brakes. Well, the "iksperdy" wrote.
    In reality, camera recordings are available! Adults and children are very clearly visible, running down the stairs from the 4th floor, clubs of black smoke just fall behind them !! Iksperdy, AU !! Yes, any parent, in the event of the slightest focus of ignition of his child in an armful and run away !! No fire alarms are needed there, in seconds the entire shopping center would know that there was a fire !! And I don’t say anything about grandparents ... And then for about 5 minutes people calmly watch their children burn up ?? !!
    Iksperdy. you yourself are not ashamed to lie like that ?? am
    Leaks, non-working machines, etc. just reinforced the effects of sabotage. I think that the terrorists themselves hardly expected this. And of course, you need to punish for these violations and painfully punish! BUT to call a cause of instant fire of foam rubber a certain leak in the roof, this is an excuse for mockery !!
    I appeal to the Kemerovo citizens - was there a chandelier in the trampoline ?? And if so, what size and where did it hang?
    And with saboteurs and terrorists, the conversation should be short - to the wall! By the way, it’s quite in line with global trends - we think so and the probability is high laughing
    1. DRIVEX
      DRIVEX April 16 2018 21: 58
      0
      Mdaaa ... awesome opus ...
    2. Bumblebee_3
      Bumblebee_3 April 16 2018 22: 07
      +3
      Leo Bronch (Leo)
      I don’t know whether you take my word for it or not, but it’s not just a chandelier. I am convinced that the wiring to the chandelier was made with wild violations. I myself have seen many times how the cable burns. This is not a single flash point, the cable burns from a short circuit or overload, almost the entire length. In this case, clots of burning "isolation" fall down and emit such a smell and smoke, no worse than burning sulfur (the eyes "eats up" and a cough such that it is difficult to restrain). By the way, putting them out is pretty difficult. As for the machines, there are a lot of fakes, sometimes such machines work like a regular switch (smoke comes out of it, but it does not "work"). All this is sad. The fact that all the checks in this shopping center were fictitious, I'm sure.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 April 16 2018 22: 21
        0
        Quote: Bumblebee_3
        I am convinced that the wiring to the chandelier was carried out with wild violations.

        The fact is that initially one football player started the restructuring of the candy factory, and they wanted to do not a shopping center, but a sports complex. Naturally, the wiring was designed for a much lower load. My opinion coincides with yours, overload on the cable.
      2. XXXIII
        XXXIII April 16 2018 22: 22
        +2
        The original picture you described, so much where it works, and up to a point!
        Quote: Bumblebee_3
        The fact that all the checks in this shopping center were fictitious, I'm sure.

        The main reason, everything would work and worked, if there were no fictitious reports, that everything is working properly and well .... hi
  20. Victor_B
    Victor_B April 16 2018 21: 17
    0
    It is possible that the protection was performed at all even not on machines, but simply connected to an old shield with fuses.
    This in itself is not scary, provided that the fuse rating is not less than 3 times less than the short circuit current.
    Short-circuit current is determined by the project and checked by special devices without disconnecting the load by voltage sagging when connecting a calibrated resistance.
    And this is done when the object is commissioned and every 3 years.
  21. DRIVEX
    DRIVEX April 16 2018 21: 30
    0
    Your mother you !!!! How many errors have developed to bring about such a result! After all, even one of them was pulled out of the row and there would have been no tragedy !!! Sad Very sad!
  22. Dezinto
    Dezinto April 16 2018 21: 37
    +3
    Why didn’t the "sprinklers" work ... if they were there !? This is a purely mechanical device - no automation is needed. The temperature bursts the cone - the valve opens - it starts to rain. The only thing you need is the water pressure in the pipes ........
    so there are no less questions .....



    Either there were no such devices, or they were pushed into the ceiling for a check mark without bringing them to the water. or ..... well, it's really horrible .... that the pumps were turned off ...
    and this hell is muddy which did not press the button ....- also causes a bunch of questions .....
    1. XXXIII
      XXXIII April 16 2018 21: 52
      +1
      They are afraid to install such systems, by chance or hooliganism, the entire shopping center with goods will flood + damage to all matters, etc. ....
  23. Forever so
    Forever so April 16 2018 21: 53
    0
    the cult of profit, on which the Putin prays with his comrades, will collect the bloody harvest again and again. In general, the crane, the chandelier and the foam cube are to blame. they must be judged and given a life sentence.
    1. Flatter
      Flatter April 16 2018 21: 58
      0
      The roof is to blame, which leaked
      1. XXXIII
        XXXIII April 16 2018 22: 12
        +1
        Quote: Flatter
        The roof is to blame, which leaked

        Snow is then to blame .... fellow
  24. Mentat
    Mentat April 16 2018 22: 11
    +3
    Quote: zart_arn
    “Bravo” Not only to business, but also to the “vertical of power”. Her slowness, corruption and sloppiness is perhaps the main reason for the tragedy.

    Those. the owners blocked the fire water supply, did not monitor the state of the electrics, the staff did not follow the safety protocols, and is the “power vertical” to blame?
  25. Severok
    Severok April 16 2018 22: 52
    +1
    Sloppiness, ignorance, poh-zm, distribution and greed led to the death of people. One must begin with oneself, brothers. Do not allow yourself to score on what you simply have to do! not because you or your uncle will be fined, but because then someone will have to bury someone.
    Do not allow yourself to save or take a bribe for the fact that someone will not do something that will affect the safety of people.
    Do not allow yourself to miss a piece of paper, not because somewhere the print is not the right one or the deadlines have passed, but because the piece of paper does not correspond to the reality of life ...

    I have the honor.
  26. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I April 17 2018 01: 02
    +2
    It was reported that the electric cables hung on the ceiling openly. This should not be. According to the requirements of the EMP, at present, preference should be given to cables marked with [ng] or another, meaning "non-burning". The cable should be laid in the "corrugation", pipes, cable channels, etc. In buildings where people are supposed to stay. In addition to AV-shek, RCDs, difavtomaty should be installed.
  27. Dazdranagon
    Dazdranagon April 17 2018 03: 10
    +1
    The spread of fire could be avoided if the staff immediately turned off the ventilation, as in such cases the instruction
    - what nonsense? The ventilation should have turned off AUTOMATICALLY! There is only one reason - violations during construction and bribery during surrender and inspections!
  28. A.
    A. April 17 2018 03: 32
    0
    Quote: Stas1973
    Rave. Complete nonsense. If the machines do not knock out, they burn out. Followed by opening the circuit. At the same time, dried-up insulation of the wiring can burn, if it was originally made to stop a hundred years ago without observing any installation standards. BUT!!! In this case, in any case, the PPZ should have worked (alarm, sprinklers, etc., including the same fire extinguishers, even with fright, visitors had to find and apply them). The article is a complete kitchen.

    Kuynya, this is your comment, if the machine did not work when closed, then in the future it does not differ from the conductor until it burns with the whole building. Another thing is that somewhere it is written that the smoke removal system should have worked, here it is that the ventilation should have been turned off. In general, you will not please everyone
  29. tolmachiev51
    tolmachiev51 April 17 2018 03: 56
    0
    The impression that the roof is "leaking" at the Ministry of Emergencies - again the people are being pulled in by the emergency circuit wiring closure !!! Do you understand what you write ?.
  30. viktor.
    viktor. April 17 2018 04: 38
    0
    I think that such institutions for children, in the future, at the reception, parents of children near the houses should be present, for example, dad firefighters, police, prosecutors, etc. I think such rules will radically change the acceptance rules and the main quality! Eternal memory of the dead and condolences to the family and friends.
    1. Disant
      Disant April 17 2018 09: 32
      0
      ! Yes, the state commission should take all the buildings where a lot of people walk or live, that's how it was.
      and now - private shops are drawing and calculating the house (they remove everything "superfluous" from the project), and accepts it - the local administration and local commissions.
      STATE COMMISSION. OUTDOOR, WITH LABORATORY, ONE IN THE COUNTRY - and immediately everyone in the whole country will no longer want to save (build with violations) on emergency stairs, exhaust shafts, water communications with normal pressure, wiring and high-quality concrete.
      .
      He built a high-rise building, the commission arrived - the foundation of the wrong fortress - a house for demolition.
      The concrete wiring was lifted, they checked the tooth in the laboratory - NOT THAT! - A complete replacement for the entire object and it does not matter what is scratched on the wire. And further down the list - the supplier of poor-quality wiring is already shaking
      1. Disant
        Disant April 17 2018 09: 50
        0
        Further, the Supplier indicates the manufacturer, and there they shake the technologist, quality control department or who measures the thickness there and the composition of the wiring interferes. (well, or concrete interferes, if about concrete), private shops are shaking, who issued certificates for products.
        Further, the manufacturer shakes the supplier of low-quality raw materials and who issued certificates for raw materials (again private shops!) Shakes out all forfeits in short. through the court.
        .
        THE ONLY WAY.
        And then everyone will feel their responsibility for their work.
        And corruption itself will die
  31. andrej-shironov
    andrej-shironov April 17 2018 09: 09
    0
    Well, this is the cause of the fire. And now I would like to hear about the totality of the investigation of the factors that led to this cause. The next center in Arkhangelsk is already burning, and this is after the prosecutor’s checks!