Military Review

In the Voronezh region crashed Yak-130

87
Information Service SM-News citing its own source reports that today in the Voronezh region crashed plane Borisoglebskaya aviation base of the Yak-130 Aerospace Forces of Russia. According to the latest information, the crash of a combat training aircraft (UBS) occurred in the Gribanovsky region of the region. It is a few kilometers from the Borisoglebsk airdrome.


Recall that in September last year, a similar disaster occurred in the area of ​​the Borisoglebsk aviation base. Then the crash suffered Yak-130, which was piloted by a cadet of the 5-th course of the flight school and an experienced major - an instructor of the aviation base. Both pilots ejected around the administrative border of the Voronezh and Volgograd regions.

In the Voronezh region crashed Yak-130


The Ministry of Defense confirms:
12 April 2018 about 9 hours 40 minutes during the scheduled training flight the Yak-130 plane crashed at the training base of the Krasnodar Higher Aviation School for Pilots in Borisoglebsk (Voronezh region)


Pilots ejected.

It is noted that the commander reported on the occurrence of a technical failure in one of the units of the machine, preventing the continuation of the flight. In turn, the flight director gave the command to eject.

Both pilots, an instructor pilot and a cadet, safely ejected, landed and independently contacted the aerodrome. Nothing threatens their life and health. The plane fell in a deserted area, no damage
- added to the message.

To clarify the causes and circumstances of the incident, a special commission of the flight safety service of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation began work.

Earlier, pilots of the Borisoglebsk aviation base repeatedly expressed certain complaints against the technical equipment and other aspects of the Yak-130 training and combat aircraft.
87 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. ioan-e
    ioan-e April 12 2018 11: 02
    +5
    A bad trend however, far from the first has already broken!
    1. figwam
      figwam April 12 2018 11: 05
      +3
      The second crashed.
      1. Muvka
        Muvka April 12 2018 11: 08
        +1
        Exactly. It is not known whose engine production there stood. Perhaps still Ukrainian production.
      2. okko077
        okko077 April 12 2018 13: 01
        +4
        Recall that in September last year, a similar disaster occurred in the area of ​​the Borisoglebsk air base. The author does not use the terms correctly. A catastrophe is the loss of life ... You can lose an airplane only if the control system fails, or rather the CDS ... Two engines do not immediately fail ... Why they will not say anything about it, because this is a piece of this airplane. It provides for the possibility changing your settings for different planes ...
        1. NN52
          NN52 April 12 2018 13: 36
          +2
          okko077
          My regards.
          You probably forgot that after the investigation, telegrams come to the shelves, with a full alignment and conclusions. A lesson is being held on this telegram ..
          So if you want, you can find out ...
          Well, of course, you can now sway like you ... And start from the engine fire and end with a bunch of other failures ....
          1. okko077
            okko077 April 12 2018 16: 55
            +2
            The official version may differ from the real one, and usually it is not voiced, so as not to disturb the drugs, especially in the parts where it happened ... The pilots are brought, but ITS does not believe in fairy tales ...
        2. Avis-bis
          Avis-bis April 12 2018 14: 08
          +3
          Quote: okko077
          Two engines do not immediately refuse ...

          Without an external reason, maybe not. But a flock of all kinds of conditional geese there ... And it is possible that in addition to the EMF, direct control is also provided there.
          1. okko077
            okko077 April 12 2018 17: 00
            +1
            .. there is also direct control.
            Where is it, on your couch? Straight, slanting? Where did you come from conventional geese? ... Amateur observer?
            1. Avis-bis
              Avis-bis April 12 2018 18: 35
              +4
              Quote: okko077
              .. there is also direct control.
              Where is it, on your couch? Straight, slanting? Where did you come from conventional geese? ... Amateur observer?

              Figs, a greyhound rushing out of you ... What are you, clown infusorian?
              1. NN52
                NN52 April 12 2018 20: 09
                +2
                okko077
                Avis-bis

                Both calmed down ....
                Valery, always with a complete analysis of the telegrams brought to us. Are we suicides ??

                Sergey, and you are calm.
    2. cariperpaint
      cariperpaint April 12 2018 11: 12
      +5
      training equipment. it will be ruined in any case. although maybe the pilots have their own approaches ...
    3. gukoyan
      gukoyan April 12 2018 11: 29
      +1
      "A bad trend however, far from the first has already broken!"

      You also got a lot of peepelatics the other day ...
    4. fighter angel
      fighter angel April 12 2018 11: 42
      +5
      And who last week as many as FOUR !!! It crashed. And Apache and Hornet with Harrier, and even Stallion collapsed ... How do you like this trend, however?
      1. ioan-e
        ioan-e April 12 2018 11: 52
        +1
        Who does YOU have? I live in Mytishchi! And the flag, because I'm sitting through the VPN, because the restrictions are on the job!
        1. fighter angel
          fighter angel April 12 2018 12: 12
          +1
          Hey, the states have moved to Mytishchi! Everything is going according to plan ... Joke.
        2. Voyager
          Voyager April 12 2018 12: 28
          0
          By the way, the flag seems to be corrected in the profile settings
      2. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk April 12 2018 21: 02
        0
        Quote: fighter angel
        And who last week as many as FOUR !!! It crashed. And Apache and Hornet with Harrier, and even Stallion collapsed ... How do you like this trend, however?

        And I do not care what and how much they fall, it hurts me when at least one falls.
    5. Alex_Rarog
      Alex_Rarog April 12 2018 12: 09
      +5
      Yes figs with him with iron. The main thing is the pilots are intact ...
    6. Hanokem
      Hanokem April 12 2018 12: 13
      +5
      I never rejoice in crashes of planes in alien air forces. It really hurts my eyes when, after a crash in the US air force, there are inscriptions in the style: "one less" ....
    7. Nyrobsky
      Nyrobsky April 12 2018 13: 14
      +1
      Quote: ioan-e
      A bad trend however, far from the first has already broken!

      Yes, God bless him, with iron - there is no perfect technique and failures with failures are constant companions of any technical apparatus. The main thing is that the pilots were not injured.
  2. K-50
    K-50 April 12 2018 11: 05
    +2
    It’s like something with the atmosphere, if the "flyers" of all stripes pour from the sky one after another. what
    The main thing is that the pilots are alive.
    1. Paranoid50
      Paranoid50 April 12 2018 11: 29
      +3
      Quote: K-50
      It’s like something with the atmosphere,

      Here, it seems, iron:
      the commander reported on the occurrence of a technical malfunction in one machine unit, which impeded the continuation of the flight. Earlier, pilots at the Borisoglebsk Air Base repeatedly expressed some complaints regarding the technical equipment and other aspects of the Yak-130 combat trainer.
  3. Muvka
    Muvka April 12 2018 11: 05
    +1
    Here they are, the best ejection seats. But now they will know where to look for malfunctions.
  4. screw cutter
    screw cutter April 12 2018 11: 07
    +5
    The main thing is that people survived.
  5. keeper03
    keeper03 April 12 2018 11: 20
    +4
    It is very good that everyone is alive, as well as valuable information on the malfunction of a failed unit was transferred to the ground! good Yak-130 has long been in need of eliminating such diseasesI hope this pilot continues to serve in the Russian Aerospace Forces! fellow
  6. Topotun
    Topotun April 12 2018 11: 25
    +1
    Something lately a lot of wrecks. And all over the world. Or have the military of all countries begun INTENSIVE training? Alarming ...
  7. oldav
    oldav April 12 2018 11: 30
    0
    Something often they fall. With l-39 this was not. It was necessary to take a moment.
    1. fighter angel
      fighter angel April 12 2018 11: 59
      +4
      oldav
      Instead of “weaving” here, they would have taken statistics and looked. Specifically. How many raids, and how many failures / incidents. MTBF what type of aircraft is this? We know, no? And we strive to "read" ... And according to the "Albatross", are you up to date with the statistics of their incidents? Why are these allegations?
    2. Piramidon
      Piramidon April 12 2018 12: 20
      +1
      Quote: oldav
      I had to take a moment

      And what, on MiG there is data on reliability?
      1. oldav
        oldav April 12 2018 12: 26
        0
        It is simple and was created as a continuation / replacement of the L-39. Yak-130 is difficult for cadets.
    3. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA April 12 2018 13: 29
      +3
      Quote: oldav
      Something often they fall. With l-39 this was not.

      Elki fell much more often. Here are 80s stats:
      1982: 2 accidents, 3 disasters
      1983: 1 accident, 4 disasters
      1984: 3 disasters
      1983: 2 accidents, 4 disasters
      It's just that in Soviet times, accidents and catastrophes were not particularly reported - only about the largest.
      1. Hole puncher
        Hole puncher April 12 2018 13: 52
        +4
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Elki fell much more often.

        It’s worth talking more or less with the numbers on the flight hours.
        How many flight schools were there in 1983 and how many are now, how many elks have flown in that year, and how many are yaks now. I am sure statistics will not be in favor of Yak.
      2. shura7782
        shura7782 April 12 2018 15: 43
        0
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Quote: oldav
        Something often they fall. With l-39 this was not.


        It's just that in Soviet times, accidents and catastrophes were not particularly reported - only about the largest.

        Give incorrect information. This bulletin in parts with accidents and disasters in military aviation was brought to the permanent staff monthly with all the details.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA April 12 2018 19: 26
          +4
          Quote: shura7782
          This bulletin in parts with accidents and disasters in military aviation brought to the permanent composition monthly with all the details.

          The key is highlighted. I meant exactly the media.
          In the 80s, articles such as “L-39 crashed in the Voronezh Region” were not published in newspapers. And in the program "Time" this was not told.
          1. shura7782
            shura7782 April 12 2018 21: 43
            +1
            The key is highlighted. I meant exactly the media. I understood you. I do not welcome the posting of such events. It does not bring anything good for a simple layman. All kinds of false rumors are generated. and as a result, wrong conclusions are made. The tragedy itself is forgotten, and the cockroaches in the head remain. Let professionals do these things. Unfortunately, times have changed and now we have to listen to such nonsense with the media.
  8. Gogia
    Gogia April 12 2018 11: 31
    0
    There were constantly complaints about UC. But at least they put a good catapult!
    Serious with the quality of disassembly.
  9. pavelty
    pavelty April 12 2018 11: 33
    +1
    They fly very intensively, but note that for all accidents (including abroad) one pilot died, thanks K-36L
    1. pavelty
      pavelty April 12 2018 13: 09
      +1
      I’m wrong, of course, not a catastrophe in this case - an accident ...
  10. shura7782
    shura7782 April 12 2018 11: 35
    0
    A sad trend is gaining Yak-130. If I am not mistaken, then this is our fourth case since 2010.
    1. Servisinzhener
      Servisinzhener April 12 2018 13: 57
      0
      Few aircraft without these statistics. The above was an example of a L-39 accident rate from 82 to 83 years.
      1. shura7782
        shura7782 April 12 2018 16: 05
        0
        Thanks for the information, reminded. In these accidents and catastrophes, the AT performance is annoying me. The Yak-130 is a complicated filling and it should be more reliable at least because it has two engines. The equipment of the L-39 is simple and the engine is one. I would not compare these two aircraft. I’ll see how their people who are far from aviation will compare.
  11. prior
    prior April 12 2018 11: 36
    0
    Just a training aircraft was piloted by an instructor and a cadet who successfully passed the exam.
    1. andranick
      andranick April 12 2018 12: 02
      +5
      Ek, you categorically pinned the pilots. Also did not pass the cup of the exam?
    2. NN52
      NN52 April 12 2018 12: 55
      +2
      prior
      And where does the exam in general?
      No one canceled the professional selection upon admission to the flight ..
      Perhaps you yourself failed the exam ...
    3. faridg7
      faridg7 April 12 2018 13: 35
      +3
      In your place, I would not be so categorical. As far as I understood, some kind of exercise was being worked out and there was a failure in management. Strange of course - did the failure go through four channels at once? I'm afraid that while they will deal with the refusal, the first-born will never fly to Yak. Sorry, he was waiting for this.
      1. NN52
        NN52 April 12 2018 13: 42
        +2
        faridg7

        Well, flights on this type must have been suspended until clarification.
        It will fly out on its own a little later, do not worry ...
        The main thing is to buy more cigarettes before an independent departure ....
        1. faridg7
          faridg7 April 12 2018 13: 44
          +4
          I’ll throw him a cigarette, it’s not a problem, the main thing is that he himself does not start smoking from his worries
          1. Pete mitchell
            Pete mitchell April 13 2018 20: 42
            +2
            Quote: faridg7
            cigarettes I'll throw him no problem

            hi Half a Twowhich cigarettes are cigarettes, cigarettes ... laughing
        2. faridg7
          faridg7 April 12 2018 16: 03
          +4
          Now there was a connection with my cadet, said that the cadet who ejected was fine, just a little shocked. Failure passed control during a dive. Everything went very quickly, but nevertheless, the reports and orders were clear and distinct. Probably the guys will have to fly the program on the Albatross. In this case, I would really like the boy sent to Maykop.
          1. NN52
            NN52 April 12 2018 16: 41
            +2
            faridg7

            All the same, management .... it's a pity, I thought not that ... Now, really for a long time 130 can remain on the ground until clarification ... Until they find out, until all the sides shake up ...
            But let's hope for the best !!! But still it will fly!
      2. Pete mitchell
        Pete mitchell April 14 2018 09: 09
        +2
        Quote: faridg7
        the first-born will never fly

        Good luck to the firstborn
        1. faridg7
          faridg7 April 14 2018 09: 24
          +2
          Thank you, there will be a connection
          1. Pete mitchell
            Pete mitchell April 14 2018 12: 51
            +2
            When they let me out, they advised me with the words: that garbage that you allow deviations, it's good that you correct it. Good luck again ..
  12. razved
    razved April 12 2018 11: 37
    +2
    Flyers are alive - this is the main thing.
  13. faiver
    faiver April 12 2018 11: 50
    +3
    in 12 years, 6 planes crashed, the 1 pilot died as a result of an unsuccessful bailout, of one and a half hundred planes, including the 4 plane and two in Bangladesh, I would not say that everything is so bad ...
    1. iouris
      iouris April 12 2018 12: 15
      +1
      Quote: faiver
      I would not say that everything is so bad ...

      And what is the standard for evaluating "not so bad"?
      1. faiver
        faiver April 12 2018 14: 26
        0
        by eye, the ratio of the number of discharged with the number of disasters, you can still add up the service life
        for example, the instant-31 will be accidental - out of five hundred with copecks, 37 was defeated, though for almost 40 years ...
        1. Vikxnumx
          Vikxnumx April 12 2018 15: 26
          0
          And how many MiG-31s ​​flew in 40 years?
          And what about the Yak-38?
          1. faiver
            faiver April 12 2018 15: 34
            +1
            from 231 the yak-38 cars smashed 48 cars, but this is a car of a different class so it’s impossible to compare,
            And how many MiG-31 flew for 40 years
            - And how many Yak-130 flies for 40 years?
            Nowadays, according to the logic of things, the flight intensity of the yak-130 is much greater than that of the instant-31 ...
  14. Bronevick
    Bronevick April 12 2018 11: 52
    0
    There are obviously some problems with the plane, but for some reason they do not solve them.
    1. iouris
      iouris April 12 2018 12: 16
      0
      Quote: Bronevick
      there are some problems, but for some reason they do not solve them.

      A problem is a problem that has no solution.
    2. faridg7
      faridg7 April 12 2018 18: 11
      +3
      Well, why they don’t decide, they decide. It takes time to solve any problem, especially for such a complex aircraft. Aircraft is developing, software is changing, RLE is changing,
      just shake the program now a lot of time will go
  15. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter April 12 2018 11: 59
    +2
    When people are alive, the incident is not called a disaster. The plane is a training one, the raid is large (like a car in a driving school) ... They will figure out what happened. Correct ...
    1. iouris
      iouris April 12 2018 12: 20
      +2
      The term "crash" is the author's, "creative". According to the regulatory documents of the Russian Federation, which some are simply obliged to know, the terms “aviation incident”, “aviation accident”, “accident”, “catastrophe” should be used.
  16. aszzz888
    aszzz888 April 12 2018 12: 13
    0
    The main thing is people are whole ... and iron it is iron - it flies, then falls. Of course it’s better to just fly.
  17. Skarpzd
    Skarpzd April 12 2018 12: 15
    0
    Is there anything wrong with these yaks?
    1. iouris
      iouris April 12 2018 13: 30
      +1
      When in 1985 everything went “wrong" (this is a subjective assessment), then this could not but affect aviation (this is a hypothesis). To make reasonable conclusions about "these yaks" there is no comparative data.
  18. Vitas
    Vitas April 12 2018 12: 20
    +2
    Units produced more than 130 (for 2017)

    As of December 27, 2017, seven Yak-130s were lost. + 2 incidents without serious consequences.
    8 years of operation ... not so everything is critical. The plant monitors and corrects by design.
    1. NN52
      NN52 April 12 2018 13: 17
      +4
      Two sides in Bangladesh, a mid-air collision, nothing to do with technology ...

      YAK 130 fly a lot ... Perhaps there are still some kind of "children's" sores, they will heal ...
      And AT failures were, are, and will be, unfortunately ... There is no technology, so far, which does not break ...
      The main thing is to be prepared for failure, to recognize the failure, to know the procedure for any failure, to work out all the actions in an emergency on the simulator to automatism ...
      Well, it’s natural to turn on your head on time ....

      Well, bailout, this is the last chance ... Which must also be used wisely ..
  19. Azazelo
    Azazelo April 12 2018 12: 54
    0
    Yak 130 a true friend - he died, and the pilots escaped.
  20. Bronevick
    Bronevick April 12 2018 14: 07
    0
    What about the An-26 crash investigation in Syria?
  21. tractor driver73
    tractor driver73 April 12 2018 14: 30
    0
    The plane is very raw, not brought to mind! Flying brick! Well, at least people are alive!
    1. faiver
      faiver April 12 2018 15: 35
      +1
      did you fly it yourself? or did one grandmother say?
      1. faridg7
        faridg7 April 12 2018 17: 58
        +2
        Quote: faiver
        did you fly it yourself? or did one grandmother say?

        Looks like a brick itself flew in, soaked in water (raw) and raised to the woods
        1. NN52
          NN52 April 13 2018 23: 59
          +1
          faridg7

          Regarding the brick, you said it right ... Comrade Lieutenant Colonel.
  22. senima56
    senima56 April 12 2018 20: 50
    0
    Something is wrong with these Yaks-130! Too many accidents! Obviously the Italians are not in vain out of this project?
  23. shuravi
    shuravi April 12 2018 21: 59
    +1
    Quote: senima56
    Something is wrong with these Yaks-130! Too many accidents! Obviously the Italians are not in vain out of this project?


    Really? laughing
  24. Avis-bis
    Avis-bis April 13 2018 07: 27
    +3
    Quote: NN52

    Sergey, and you are calm.

    Advise your cat. If allow. It has long been tacitly agreed with us that the opinions of HH52 and Avisa do not care about each other, and even more. Well, and go past, brilliant tactics ...
    1. NN52
      NN52 April 13 2018 09: 49
      0
      Sergei

      I actually have a dog. Smarter than some will even ..
      And I’m a practitioner, and I didn’t write myself down in tactics ...
      And if you noticed, I didn’t be rude to you ... We got up do not stand legs, or both at once?
      It’s from you greyhound rushing, and not from the eye (he really worked on the aviation part all his life).
      And where you were, I don’t know, they also dressed the aviation epaulettes ..
      And about your direct, maybe cable? management, this is a hit ...
      And for the future, do not politely interfere in someone else's dialogue ..
      And the fact that you silently installed there for yourself, is deep down to the bulb ... They will return the minus, let's see ...
      1. Avis-bis
        Avis-bis April 13 2018 11: 55
        +3
        Quote: NN52

        I actually have a dog. Smarter than some will even ..

        The owner, for example. Who does not understand that there is such a concept of "metaphor". And the "guess."
        And where you were I don’t know

        Well, you don’t know, don’t say so.

        also aviats epaulettes dressed ..

        Did you have to ask?
        And for the future, do not politely interfere in someone else's dialogue ..

        I say a dog is smarter than its owner. Here, in the "open air", there are no personal dialogues. If anyone wants to conduct a private conversation, let them conduct personal correspondence, there is an opportunity for this.
        And if you react to assumption about direct exercise on a training aircraft, like some kind of “okko” or “nn52”, then the response line will be appropriate. You have to start with yourself, Dmitry. This is for the future.
        1. NN52
          NN52 April 13 2018 12: 35
          0
          Sergei!

          What are you doing on me in this thread?
          I never wanted to swear, I only wanted to dampen your passions a little with an eye .. And you started to think about the detailed answer with tactical cats ...
          And what happened before was ..
          Like fellow countrymen with you ... And Pravdinsk (Istomino) I have on my shoulders ...
          And your presentation of the thoughts of someone here vaguely reminds me, but I can’t remember, and I don’t need it in principle ...
          I started with myself, Sergey ...
          1. Avis-bis
            Avis-bis April 13 2018 12: 59
            +3
            Quote: NN52

            What are you doing on me in this thread?

            I simply reminded that “HH52” has no “questions” to Avis and proposed to continue further mutual ignoring, “to avoid”, so to speak. But for some reason "NN52" climbed into the bottle, like his colleague earlier. And it began ...
            I do not know the design of the Yak-130 and simply suggested, based on the fact that the fate of the cadet should not depend on the EMF. If they were able to duplicate the booster control system on the An-22 by direct wiring, then this is even easier with a light machine. And it doesn’t matter whether it is cabled or rigid, I did not understand this sarcasm either.
            A normal person would answer “no, she’s not there, the assumption is erroneous” / “yes, she is”, and I wouldn’t scuffle “oblique”, “crooked sofa” or whatever friend of НН52 was there, I’m too lazy to scroll to check up. The specialist does not behave like that. Well, of course, if he doesn’t have a long-standing teenage complex.
            If the Yak-130 does not have direct control wiring, then, of course, the EDSU failure version becomes the main one. But the simultaneous failure of both engines from external causes is possible, and the case of the Hudson is not the only example.

            And what happened before was ..

            "Drop dead" worldview. :)

            Like fellow countrymen with you ...

            So what? :) Are all Nizhny Novgorod friends with each other?
            And Pravdinsk (Istomino) on my shoulders ...

            From there I only talked with Koltyshev. A normal man, albeit, according to some colleagues, a little overestimated. But in ATB "Nizhny Novgorod a / l" / "Volga-Avia" put things in order. So, he behaved normally, without "questions I have no more" and moralizing.

            Yes, long. But now, I hope, as intelligibly as possible.
            1. NN52
              NN52 April 13 2018 16: 55
              +1
              Avis-bis

              They wrote a lot, I appreciate the clarification of your position.
              And they could write in one word, when I offended you with the careless word NN52, but you didn’t forget .. We probably wrote it down.
              I did not know or did not find Koltyshev.
              Okko is not my friend (I have only one friend on the forum, and this is not okko), and as far as I know, he was an AO engineer with Su 24, somewhere around your age (I’m younger, not very touchy, and with another, great from your worldview), and I always respected the technical staff, nowhere without them ..
              And I repeat again, in this topic I did not begin to be rude to you ... And I got into the bottle only after your tactical cats. But then you basically do not care.
              You have a scale of ambition from your apparently internal significance, ossified worldview, which can’t be moved by anything, I can only guess age.
              I am a simpler person, just a practitioner.
              You advised starting with yourself for the future, I started, wrote to you, but it turns out we live on different planets in Nizhny Novgorod ..
              Yes, in principle, okay ... Although your opinion about you was approximate and in principle I understood who you are, probably .. Soon the titles will be again ...
              And be simpler ...

              On this, let me take my leave .... (I also wrote a lot)
              1. Pete mitchell
                Pete mitchell April 13 2018 20: 53
                +2
                Reviews, NN52let's rejoice that the guys are alive and wait for the results of the investigation
  25. Kyzmich
    Kyzmich April 13 2018 09: 19
    0
    Often these Yak-and-bad beat.
  26. BVS
    BVS April 13 2018 16: 15
    0
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Quote: oldav
    Something often they fall. With l-39 this was not.

    Elki fell much more often. Here are 80s stats:
    1982: 2 accidents, 3 disasters
    1983: 1 accident, 4 disasters
    1984: 3 disasters
    1983: 2 accidents, 4 disasters
    It's just that in Soviet times, accidents and catastrophes were not particularly reported - only about the largest.

    So what are the statistics for 1983?
  27. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet April 13 2018 16: 23
    0
    I blinded you from what was ... It seems that the competence of Yakovlev Design Bureau is lower than the baseboard ... laughing tongue wassat