Military Review

How to revise the history of World War II

78
The article “Military Review” recently published an article devoted to how numerous attempts have recently been made to link the strategy and tactics of warfare of the Soviet (Russian) army with unnecessary and unjustified victims. They say that the Russian generals have only one tactic: to achieve victory at any cost. The saddest thing is that sometimes even in school textbooks stories their authors, whole battles turn into examples of thoughtless bloodshed, which, according to the same authors, could have been avoided. Whether it can be considered an entire planned campaign is difficult to say, but the fact that such publications and materials become suspiciously much is a fact.

How to revise the history of World War II


Especially a lot of materials began to appear in which they are trying to review the events of the Great Patriotic War. And, as it is known, if today we can subject individual historically episodes of the most terrible war in the history of mankind to doubt, then tomorrow and its outcome will be easily adjusted to the level needed by someone.

One of the very battles in which many journalists, writers and historians see an example of unjustified bloodshed by the Soviet army is considered to be a battle on the outskirts of Berlin. Its official name is the assault on the Seelow Heights. This operation was carried out for three days under the command of Georgy Zhukov.

One of the main critics of the actions of Marshal Zhukov on the Seelow Heights is the writer Vladimir Beshanov. The retired officer, Beshanov (born, by the way, in 1962), is convinced that the Seelow three-day assault (16-19 in April of 1945) was an absolutely senseless undertaking by Marshal Zhukov, as he led to numerous losses from Soviet and Polish allied troops. In addition, Vladimir Beshanov believes that Zhukov did not even go for an operation, but for a primitive frontal assault, which allegedly shows that the marshal rushed to Berlin at any cost to outrun his rival generals in order to get all the laurels of the winner. With these words, Beshanov once spoke on Ekho Moskvy radio and, by the way, managed to find a large number of radio listeners supporting his personal point of view.

But it’s not even the position of the writer Beshanov that surprises, but how quickly our attitude towards this or that historical event or this or that historical person can change immediately after the words heard on the air. Like, if a certain retired naval officer said, then it really was so: the bloodthirsty Zhukov literally, sorry, flooded Berlin, walking over the corpses of his own soldiers to curry favor with the Supreme and get another batch of orders for the chest. And such a version was quickly raised “in arms”, starting to replicate with enviable regularity. New authors appeared who were also sure that Zhukov did not have to go ahead, but let Konev take Berlin and then jointly suppress the German armies concentrated on the Seelow heights.
Now it is necessary to understand the “bloodthirstiness” of G.K. Zhukov on Seelowwhat is called, with a cold head and without attempts to make a single sensation out of a single historical event, with revelations of historical characters.

For a start it is worth saying that during the operation on the Seelow Heights, Soviet troops lost about 25000 people. It seems that in three days these are really serious losses. However, very often the authors of these very human losses 25000, for some reason, immediately record irreversible losses. In fact, this number does not mean 25000 killed. About 70% of the discussed 25000 - the wounded, who then, as they say, got into operation. Yes, and how could there have been smaller losses with such an active onslaught, which was demonstrated by the Soviet troops.

The question is: why did Marshal Zhukov decide to strike Wehrmacht positions on the Seelow Heights from the north, but simply did not wait for Konev’s armies from the West, which by that time could have occupied Berlin themselves. And Zhukov himself and military historians who work closely on the subject of the Berlin operation repeatedly answered this question. The fact is that Zhukov didn’t just hit the Seelow Heights, but in fact pulled the main forces of the German forces away. The whole German army (the ninth) was first surrounded and then destroyed even before the start of the battles for the capital of the Reich. If Zhukov didn’t go for this operation, then the same Konev would have to face much greater forces of the Wehrmacht in Berlin than those that happened there after the Zhukov Seelow strike. In the German capital itself from the East managed to break through the few remnants of the 56 of the German tank corps (about 12500 thousands of fighters from 56000), who stood on the Seelow heights until the impact of Zhukov’s armies.

It is safe to say that these forces (12500) were for the German defenders of Berlin weak support, and that is why the Soviet troops took the capital of the Third Reich fairly quickly. You can imagine how that 9-I German army would lead itself if they simply passed by, rushing to Berlin. She would simply change the attack vector and strike Zhukov’s armies either on the flank or on the rear, and Zhukov would have had more casualties. About this, in particular, spoke General Jodl at the Nuremberg trials. According to him, the German military units expected exactly that Zhukov would lead the troops around and would not dare to strike at the front on the Seelow Heights. But Zhukov took a non-standard step, obviously confusing the Wehrmacht command cards. Such a “primitive” move (according to the writer Beshanov), which led to the defeat of the whole German army in just a day's 3. By the way, in that operation, the German Army Group Vistula lost more than 12300 people just killed. This is to the fact that some authors say that the troops of the Third Reich in any battle suffered minimal losses, and the troops of the Land of Soviets washed their own blood ...



The authors of critical articles aimed at Zhukov, believe that the marshal himself had to wait for Konev, who would have taken Berlin without him: that the losses of the Soviet troops would have been minimal. However, it is completely incomprehensible why it was suddenly decided that Konev would have taken Berlin on his own. In the end, seeing that Zhukov remains in his position, the same Wehrmacht 9 Army could not send 12500 "bayonets" to Berlin, weakened by the fighting east of Berlin, but several times more and, as they say, fresh. And this would obviously have delayed the capture of the German capital itself, and, as a result, would increase the number of casualties on the part of the Soviet units.

It turns out that the criticism of the actions of Marshal Zhukov during the Berlin operation is completely groundless and does not have any solid grounds. In the end, seeing oneself as strategists when a certain number of years separate from the historical event itself is much easier than making difficult decisions during these events.

Let's hope that when creating history textbooks, the authors will rely on real historical facts, and not chase after a sensation. Trying to benefit from the blood of their ancestors - at least immoral, and by and large - is criminal! It must be remembered that the majority of Russian schoolchildren today mostly assess the course of history according to paragraphs of textbooks, which means that no thought experiments and “author’s versions” are simply unacceptable here.
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  1. zevs379
    zevs379 April 30 2012 07: 28
    +22
    Let's hope that when creating history textbooks, the authors will rely on real historical facts, and not chase after a sensation. Trying to benefit from the blood of their ancestors - at least immoral, and by and large - is criminal! It must be remembered that the majority of Russian schoolchildren today mostly assess the course of history according to paragraphs of textbooks, which means that no thought experiments and “author’s versions” are simply unacceptable here.



    How much can you drink? Write about the Second World War, be so kind to present the facts (reports, orders, memoirs). It looks like "mister" bashanov is prevented from sleeping by the laurels of rezun-suvorov.
    1. Kars
      Kars April 30 2012 09: 37
      +21
      Quote: zevs379
      for the most part they evaluate the course of history precisely by paragraphs of textbooks


      Most likely on the television movie.
      And real historical facts can be worse than fictional sensations.
      The West through hires is trying to instill COMPLEX of Guilt, for the fact that we Won (I have every right to say WE because seven people fought in my family, thank God everyone is alive, though not everyone could live long after the war --- we can say the war took their years of life ) and I personally don’t give a damn about all kinds of libel, or references to cruelty. They came to us to kill and enslave. We killed them. And the Germans should be grateful to the USSR and Stalin personally that everyone did not go to Siberia to clear the snow.


      But still, we must know the truth about the war as truthful as possible so as not to repeat our mistakes. And therefore, such historians as Solonik, Beshanov, even the English rag Rezun can also bring some benefit. Only after reading the Icebreaker, I began to search and disassemble information about the initial period of the war, and such excellent books appeared to refute it,
      1. oiuy
        oiuy April 30 2012 13: 52
        -21
        Cool approach: Soviet losses "about 25 thousand, of which about 70% are supposedly wounded" .... fool People, okstyte! Of course, I understand that the cost of the life and health of a Soviet soldier is almost zero, but not to the same extent in today's time! Where are your herds of newly minted WWII explorers? Yes, today they must count and report to the whole country about every single dead and wounded soldier! And nothing else. And today we are again "soaring brains" with some mythical numbers ...
        1. mechanic33
          mechanic33 April 30 2012 15: 29
          +7
          Quote: oiuy
          every single dead and wounded soldier! And no other way.


          unfortunately such numbers about their soldiers, no side will say even now .....
        2. Opertak
          Opertak April 30 2012 16: 27
          +7
          Quote: oiuy
          And today our brains are again "soaring" with some mythical numbers ..


          Especially for the fascist defect I explain: ALL were taken into account. You can go to the Central Museum of the Great Patriotic War on Poklonnaya Gora yourself and see if the most accurate data is stored there. On this occasion, even Onotole made a video statement about the stupidity and stupidity of Solzhenitsyn, taking into account each of our victims 3-4 times.
        3. Prorox
          Prorox April 30 2012 17: 07
          +12
          The article is about the defeat of the Nazi group by Soviet troops under the command of Marshal Zhukov in World War II and we will celebrate Victory Day on May 9th in World War II.

          Dulles's plan in action, first with the help of such speakers (the flag says a lot) and the scribblers and other "experts" of history given in the article by the author, they are trying to replace the concept of the Second World War with the Second World War, proving great importance due to the participation of the West, thereby belittling merits of the Soviet Union in defeating the Nazis. And so, bit by bit, feat after feat, to slander and call into question the very concept of the People The winner of the conquered by our illustrious ancestors, by the way, not the first attempt at the Patriotic War of 1812 (we will celebrate the 200th anniversary this year) also got from liberoids of all stripes and not a little it is not pleasant for all "civilized" Europe to suffer defeat over and over again, they tried to defeat these barbarians from the East, so much effort is useless.
        4. ward
          ward 1 May 2012 11: 41
          +3
          If you can read ... press the keyboard keys ... please have the history of World War II in 12 volumes ... everything is said in great detail ... In general, according to some, I get the impression that the Germans didn’t know how to fight. .. and ours stacked themselves up ...
        5. zaqwsx
          zaqwsx 14 May 2012 01: 24
          0
          I agree, there are killed, and there are wounded, not %%%. This crop dies in percentage terms. And in general, the whole article is far-fetched.
          1. Basarev
            Basarev 24 October 2013 22: 23
            0
            And yet it is not true to say that the Soviet troops took the number
      2. zaqwsx
        zaqwsx 14 May 2012 01: 20
        +1
        The West, through hirelings, is trying to instill COMPLEX of Guilt for the fact that we Won


        Did you understand what you wrote?
  2. Farvil
    Farvil April 30 2012 07: 30
    +26
    Everything is right, and it’s already disgusting to watch and listen to newly-minted strategists and historians who hammer young people that our past is all bad and filthy. It's time to stop this bacchanal of chanting Western democracy.
    1. Indigo
      Indigo April 30 2012 09: 56
      +8
      Do you propose to close the echo of the matskwa? You obviously do not have a crappy approach to solving the problem.
      For the indiscriminate spitting of history, organize an excursion to the spitters for about 15 years to the places of extraction of the miracle metal polonium ...
      And lastly, as they say - Do not shoot the story with a gun - from there will follow a volley from all the guns ..
      1. 755962
        755962 April 30 2012 14: 51
        +8
        That's about the redone story .. Stalin's phrase "There are no prisoners of war, there are traitors to the motherland" - FAKE!!!!!!!!!!Most likely, many have heard that the phrase “There are no prisoners of war in the Red Army, there are only traitors and traitors to the motherland” is attributed to Stalin.
        It was introduced into historical circulation by Boris Lvovich Khavkin in the article "German prisoners of war in the USSR and Soviet prisoners of war in Germany. Statement of the problem. Sources and literature".
        As the source of the quote, Mr. Khavkin cited material authored by V.P., Executive Secretary of the Commission for the Rehabilitation of Victims of Political Repression. Naumova "Information Commission on the rehabilitation of victims of political repression // New and modern history, 1996, No. 2, p. 92.
        As you can see, the work contains a similar phrase - as a title. At the same time, the source of its origin is not indicated. However, if you look through the "Help", you will see that the scientific apparatus in the form of links in this publication of Naumov is absent at all.

        So, it can be argued that this phrase “there are no prisoners of war in the Red Army, there are only traitors and traitors to the motherland” is nothing more than a spectacular title invented by the authors of the reference, which, in their opinion, should impress the reader, and attributing it to Stalin is falsification. Thus, Stalin’s phrase about the exclusion of prisoners of war from the Russian community can most likely be considered fake. http://statehistory.ru/blog/16/2
        1. vezunchik
          vezunchik April 30 2012 18: 37
          +6
          Well, here again Boris Lvovich ...... All of them are writers, historians. After all, the Bible was stolen from the Sumerians! Remember, why did the pharaoh drive them out of Egypt?
          1. Basarev
            Basarev 24 October 2013 22: 25
            0
            They say that the Jews stole from Pharaoh the whole gold reserve of Egypt, after which the ancient Egyptian special forces drove the Jews through the desert for forty years
  3. Hleb
    Hleb April 30 2012 07: 38
    +8
    But it’s not even the position of the writer Beshanov that surprises, but how quickly we can change our attitude to a particular historical event or to a particular historical person immediately after the words heard on the air


    Excellent!
    1. mishan
      mishan April 30 2012 16: 11
      +5
      "The more monstrous the lie, the more they believe in it" - Goebbels
  4. makrus
    makrus April 30 2012 07: 49
    +14
    1945 year. Here I would like to stop at the assault on the Zeelov Heights. If until this moment the “Russians” went around all the fortified areas, then here they dealt a primitive frontal blow. Why? Well, firstly, in the spring of 45goda there was information about the possibility of concluding a separate peace between the allies and Nazi Germany, which led to the acceleration of actions to prepare the operation. As a result, this led to the fact that part of the forces initially aimed at Berlin were sent to bypass it from the north, in order to exclude the possibility of an allied approach from the west. As a result, this led to a weakening of the main strike, and not to break through the main line of defense, which entailed the introduction of reserves not into an open breakthrough, but to cracking the remnants of defense. Soviet troops lost time and suffered unjustified losses. On the whole, the operation was aimed at encircling the troops stationed on the Oder, and the main task was to prevent the departure of these formations to Berlin, which should simplify the task of storming the city.

    Read in full: http://topwar.ru/8796-u-russkih-byl-t-34-u-russkih-byl-zhukov-russkiy-soldat-dit
    ya-prirody-on-est-moh-i-spit-stoya.html
    1. Odinplys
      Odinplys 1 May 2012 23: 59
      +1
      Quote: makrus
      fortified areas, here they dealt a primitive frontal blow. Why? Well, firstly, in the spring of 45goda there was information about the possibility of concluding a separate peace between the allies and Nazi Germany, which led to the acceleration of actions to prepare the operation. As a result, this led to the fact that part of the forces initially aimed at Berlin were sent to bypass it from the north, in order to exclude the possibility of an allied approach from the west.


      This is the "help" that the "allies" provided to us ...
  5. RUSmen
    RUSmen April 30 2012 08: 23
    +4
    Lastly, this clever beshan, served in the army? Let him show to Dagestan let him show his leadership talent, otherwise they’ll sit in their classrooms and become clever (fag). I can imagine how badly this is heard by the participants of the Second World War.
    1. Dust
      Dust April 30 2012 08: 35
      +7
      The article was written - a retired officer ...
      Read poorly?
  6. Dust
    Dust April 30 2012 08: 41
    +5
    Revision of history - the concept is far from unambiguous! And it’s not worth simplifying ....
    There are two aspects to this. which are connected with the simple fact that history is not a science, but an interpretation of events from the point of view of the ruling class ...
    Facts are facts, but their interpretation is important to justify the events taking place at the moment!
    What is on our agenda now? That's right - de-Stalinization, which means another review of history ...
    The second - after all, we also studied far from objective history, so we will have to part with some myths anyway - if it is important for you to understand the events that have taken place ...
    A myth arose about the mass of losses in the Berlin operation, and quite a while ago - and expose it with numbers in your hands, and not on emotions ...
  7. Redpartyzan
    Redpartyzan April 30 2012 08: 54
    +4
    But it’s not even the position of the writer Beshanov that surprises, but how quickly we can change our attitude to a particular historical event or to a particular historical person immediately after the words heard on the air
    Quite rightly noted! People do not know the story! You need to read first about Marshal Zhukov and then change your mind radically. Yes, this is a tough, strict, principled person, but not conceited in any way! And his genius as a commander is not worth talking about. My grandfather, a Great Patriotic War student and all his comrades-in-arms, still believe that Zhukov won the war! But this opinion is not any journalism but real participants in the events!
    1. Sirius
      Sirius April 30 2012 16: 44
      +4
      Why be surprised ?! The last 25 years have not brought up "thinking people". All children, like a sponge, absorb advertising, and not only it: Take everything from life, I deserve it, Pour in! etc. etc.
    2. Ascetic
      Ascetic April 30 2012 23: 36
      +5
      The Berlin operation cannot be called an example of some kind of maneuvering there, in general, or that this operation is so beautiful that can be studied as an example of some kind of military art. Primitive frontal assault

      V.V.Beshanov. Speech on the radio "Echo of Moscow"

      the assault on the Zeelov Heights was an inevitable evil. This stronghold was the key to Berlin: taking it, Soviet troops went to the rear of the 4th Panzer and 9th Armies, cutting them off from the German capital. Zhukov made the usual choice for a commander, but difficult for a person. He deliberately went to great losses in the assault on the heights in order to reduce losses and quickly complete tasks in the Berlin operation as a whole.
      Generally speaking, two things must be remembered about battles for the Zeelow Heights. Firstly, not the first, but the second line of defense rested on the heights. Accordingly, its fire defeat in the first artillery preparation was weaker. The half-hour artillery preparation on the 1st Belorussian Front was only a prelude to the artillery battle of the first day of the operation. Throwing beads in front of the first line of defense was completely unnecessary. When the infantry attacked, it was supported by the fire shaft. Then the artillery switched to support by the method of successive concentration of fire. Also, artillery worked at the request of tactical commanders. Therefore, despite the apparent weakness of the artillery preparation (30 minutes), the 1st Belorussian Front spent 1 shells on the first day of the operation, 236 more than planned. What V. Safir called “absolutely unsupported defense”, in fact, were units and formations on which more than a million shells, or 000 thousand tons of metal, were brought down. To these tons was added 100 tons of aircraft of the front, performing 000 sorties. Fights for heights did not last a week, but only two days. Hacking both lines of German defense, prepared in February 17, in one day would be a great success. [1514] The entry of tank armies into battle for the second defense line was not an exceptional event. A significant part of operations involving tank armies took place precisely with the introduction into battle, and not a breakthrough. For example, during the offensive in the Kharkov direction in August 6550, the first tank army of M.E. Katukov (then not yet guards) was entered into battle for the second defense line, and not in a pure breakthrough. Note that G.K. Zhukov was a supporter of introducing the echelon of success development in the face of tank armies into a clean breakthrough. However, [1945] in the Berlin operation, literally in the first hours of the offensive, he abandoned such a scheme.
      The second thing to remember about the Zeelov Heights is a high density of defense and closely located reserves. In fact, they were “Kursk vice versa”, and the analogue is not of the southern, but the northern face of the arc. Ironically, in the summer of 9 the same German 1943th Army advanced on the northern facet of the Kursk ledge. If during the fighting on the territory of the USSR there was a wide front from Lake Ladoga to the Black Sea, where you could always find a vulnerable point, then in 1945 the front narrowed in Germany, and the density of defense increased significantly. In 1943, there was a corridor between large forests on the northern front of the Kursk Bulge, which allowed the troops of the Central Front to increase the density of troops. Just as near Kursk, there was a rather long period of stabilization of the front in front of the Zeelov heights, which allowed the enemy to strengthen the defense.
      The operational density of troops in the 175-kilometer strip of the 1st Belorussian Front was 7 km per division, and on the 44-kilometer front of the Kyustrinsky bridgehead reached 3 km per division. For comparison: the operational density of German troops in the 1st Ukrainian Front lane was 13 km. At the same time, many divisions in the Berlin direction by the beginning of the Soviet offensive were replenished to a high level of completeness. So, for example, the 9th Airborne Division of General Bruno Brauer totaled 8 people on April 11th. Its "combat strength" {600} was 192 people, which was the best indicator among the German formations of the 6758th army.
      Replenishment also received infantry divisions of the 9th Army. The "combat strength" of the 169th Infantry Division was 5956 people, and the 303rd Infantry Division - 3860 people. For comparison, it’s enough to say that at the time when the 9th Army under the command of V. Model was planning to attack the northern face of the Kursk Bulge in the summer of 1943, the average “combat strength” of its formations was only 3296 people. For every kilometer of the front of the 12th SS Panzer Corps defending in front of the Kyustrinsky bridgehead, there were 75 artillery barrels, including direct-mounted anti-aircraft guns and three tanks, the Sturmgeshyuts or a tank destroyer. Even the infantry divisions became a "tough nut", replacing the towed 9-mm anti-tank guns with the fully armored Hetzer self-propelled guns. For example, in the 8th Airborne Division there were 169 Hetzer, and in the 10th Infantry Division there were 88. Hetzer, unlike towed guns and even XNUMXmm anti-aircraft guns, were more resistant to air strikes and artillery fire. mowing calculations not protected by armor. The Germans seriously prepared for the final battle, collecting all conceivable and unimaginable reserves and preparing the latest weapons and equipment.
      G.K. Zhukov organized the assault on the well-fortified Germans defense line at the Zeelovsky heights in such a way [394] that all that remains is to take off his hat and say: “What a cunning uncle, Georgy Konstantinovich!” Two days before the start of the offensive, April 14 and 15, the 8th Guards. the army carried out offensive operations on a wide front against the forward, first weak defense line. As a result, an adversary’s well-seen "withdrawal of his infantry from the front line to the second defensive line" {193} was clearly visible from the Soviet side. So time was gained to overcome the front line. With another organization of the breakthrough, it would have been necessary to spend hours and minutes on the first day of the offensive. The struggle for minutes and hours of a very important first day of the offensive continued further. The reception with the start of the offensive in the light of the searchlights was associated with the desire to find more time to fight on the first day for the second defense line, that is, for the Zeelovsky heights. The first lane, and so struck by artillery and aviation training, was better explored than the positions lying in the depths of the defense. Therefore, the conditions of the attack could be complicated by moving in the last hours of the night and conducting it in the light with difficulty breaking through the ruptures of the rays of the spotlights. Accordingly, Zhukov decided to shift the beginning of the assault on the front page at night, winning hours and minutes of daylight time for the battle for the second line of defense and the fight against the enemy’s operational reserves.
      At the same time, G.K. Zhukov took into account the German reception of the second half of the war with the withdrawal of troops into the depths of defense before the artillery preparation, which usually began at dawn. In a report to JV Stalin on the first day of the Berlin operation, he wrote: “Given that the enemy withdraws his infantry from the first to the second and third trenches in the morning, I [395] used night artillery fire with a high fire density for 30 minutes and the use of searchlights to blind the enemy and illuminate the terrain ahead of the advancing front troops ”{194}. These expectations were met: “According to the testimony of the prisoners, the artillery fire was so unexpected and stunning that the enemy did not have time to move away from the first trench, the second and third trenches were always under heavy fire from our artillery. As a result of this, the enemy units in the front line of defense suffered heavy losses ”{195}. The technology of breakthrough and defense was continuously improved, and the stereotyped actions on critical sectors of the front could lead to failure. Therefore, G.K. Zhukov was put on the most difficult site.
      ...

      From the book of A. Isaev "George Zhukov: The King’s Last Argument"
      You can read in Librusek
  8. baskoy
    baskoy April 30 2012 08: 59
    +8
    Trying to profit from the blood of one’s own ancestors is at least immoral, but by and large it’s criminal!

    This is meanness and betrayal! And deserves a corresponding reaction (I would like from the authorities).
    1. Basarev
      Basarev 24 October 2013 22: 32
      0
      The time has come to introduce the concept of tamerlantity
  9. darkman70
    darkman70 April 30 2012 09: 02
    +6
    Beshanov is the same pager.
    The funny thing is that all these writers think of themselves as top-level strategists, much higher than Zhukov and Stalin. However, all this is written to order. The same Beshanov already wrote tons of books. And he is not the only one.
    1. sergo0000
      sergo0000 April 30 2012 11: 09
      +4
      darkman70,
      I completely agree! Another order for Stalin and his entourage! And for Zhukov, how evil these liberalists are, no words! drinks
  10. lewerlin53rus
    lewerlin53rus April 30 2012 09: 57
    +5
    "Everyone imagines himself to be a strategist, seeing the battle from the side." A lot of (I don't want to call them writers) scribblers are trying to make a name for themselves in alternative history. Having taken a couple of facts out of context, they begin demagogic reasoning and sometimes get into such a jungle that you wonder how you can come up with such a thing. The worst thing is that this nonsense of pseudo-historians falls on fertile soil, carefully prepared by anti-Russian liberalistic-pedagogical propaganda aimed at to tarnish Russian history in front of the younger generation
  11. sergo0000
    sergo0000 April 30 2012 11: 16
    +4
    But what really pleases us, no matter how we treat the events of our time here, no matter what shoulder straps we have, we mostly agree on WWII issues! And this is the main thing! With the coming of our common holiday, May 9!
  12. 8 company
    8 company April 30 2012 11: 23
    -15
    The author is not convincing, he argues from the perspective of a layman who is not familiar with military affairs. Any military professional knows that it is better to circumvent fortified positions, if there is such an opportunity. There was such an opportunity in the Berlin operation. Zhukov's reputation as a military leader ruining a l / s in attacks that do not solve anything has been known since the time of Rzhev in 1942.
    1. Volodin
      April 30 2012 11: 35
      +20
      That is, the words of the German General Jodl from the Nuremberg trial about where Zhukov would get a blow if he began to bypass the Seelow Heights are also unconvincing? Hmmm ...
      1. loc.bejenari
        loc.bejenari April 30 2012 16: 30
        -14
        Well, Jodl, after talking with the good guys from the NKVD, would not tell
    2. makrus
      makrus April 30 2012 12: 08
      +12
      Quote: Company 8
      Any military professional knows that it is better to circumvent fortified positions, if there is such an opportunity. T

      You remind me of a boy from a joke about the sea. How many times has it been written that if the Soviets began to bypass the Zeelov Heights from the north, the German group that occupied the defense on the Oder River would have managed to retreat to the city of Berlin.
      http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki ..By the end of April 24, formations of the 28th Army of the 1st Ukrainian Front came into contact with units of the 8th Guards Army of the 1st Belorussian Front, thereby encircling the 9th Army of General Busse and cutting it off from the city south-east of Berlin. The encircled group of German troops became known as the Frankfurt-Provincial. Now the Soviet command was faced with the task of eliminating the 200th enemy group and preventing its breakthrough to Berlin or to the west - This is a direct result of the operation on the environment, where the Seeow Heights were only an episode.
      Quote: Company 8
      Zhukov's reputation as a military leader ruining a l / s in attacks that do not solve anything has been known since the time of Rzhev in 1942.

      Well, yes, the fact that we kept Stalingrad is not the result of Zhukov’s actions and the subsequent encirclement of the 6th army. It all happened by chance fool
      1. loc.bejenari
        loc.bejenari April 30 2012 16: 33
        -12
        Well, she left - and what would she do there-250000 people + 1000000 civilians without food and ammunition
        where by May 24 they would eat each other (horses and mice would already be eaten)
        1. makrus
          makrus April 30 2012 17: 40
          +3
          you do not write nonsense
          1. loc.bejenari
            loc.bejenari April 30 2012 21: 24
            -12
            nonsense in something that surrounded Berlin would capitulate and so on May 10 maximum and would thousands of lives of our grandfathers be saved ,?
            and the Allies took cover with nonsense — then Berlin was the first (they wouldn’t have thrown their soldiers into the meat grinder) or the Germans had united with the USA (which in the first place was necessary for the entry into the USSR war in the Far East) -no need
        2. 8 company
          8 company 1 May 2012 16: 07
          -8
          It is a completely normal scenario, in Berlin the Stalingrad version came to mind. It was possible to encircle the Germans in the Zeelov-Berlin area and first wait until they ate all the rats (they deserved it), and then shred in parts from favorable directions if they did not give up. And so they put people in frontal attacks on fortified areas, but what's the point? Either someone was in a hurry to May Day, or really wanted to be the first to enter the capital.
  13. 8 company
    8 company April 30 2012 11: 58
    -17
    Volodin,

    As I understand it, the words of the Soviet military commanders, who confessed unanimously at the trials of 1937. are you convincing in your work in German (Japanese, Polish, Latvian, Romanian and another 20 intelligence)? M-yes ... And what you, dear author, did not say anything about Rzhev? Tell the audience how in a few months Zhukov captured 3 district centers, putting 300 people. If everyone commanded, like Zhukov, by the end of the war, the entire population would end in the country.
    1. Volodin
      April 30 2012 12: 18
      +13
      What is it really trivial - yes Zhukov all 26 millions of Soviet lives and put. That was a monster ... And in general, if it were not for the Americans - we are the pipe ... This is the title of the article. For my part, the controversy is over.
      1. loc.bejenari
        loc.bejenari April 30 2012 16: 35
        -15
        well, why only one bug, all that mediocrity that, by the will of fate, was thrown to the top of our command
        my grandfather - a Hero of the Soviet Union - the loss precisely because of such mediocrity - who did not understand anything in the strategy and drove the masses under one motto - forward
        1. Odinplys
          Odinplys 2 May 2012 00: 26
          +3
          The author wanted to show ... and showed ... what "benefit" the so-called "allies" rendered us ...
          That it was their "help" that served as the decision to force events on the heights ... that it was the "allies" who pushed the command to this decision ... and that the blame for the excessive death lies with the decision of the "allies" to pin down the forces of the USSR Army as much as possible ... maximum traffic obstacles to Berlin ... "
          Their help was needed in 42 ... and in this case, the purpose of the "allies" was to prevent the advancement of Stalin's ideolony ... further to the west ... they were in a hurry to share the pie ...
          In that setup, the "second front" ... helped the USSR ... Yak Khvaroba cough ...
    2. Piligrim
      Piligrim April 30 2012 15: 52
      +4
      and in 1937 what are you dragging to? To support his weak position? started with specific actions, - they accused (I'm talking about the Berlin operation) argue.
      And what confuses you in the Rzhev operation ??? Expand your facts and visions as you would in Zhukov’s place at that time !!! And here we look at how much you are not balabol. wassat
    3. heady andrey
      heady andrey April 30 2012 18: 08
      0
      I apologize, what kind of Rzhev operation are you talking about?
  14. obrjak
    obrjak April 30 2012 12: 07
    +9
    "Losses at the Seelow Heights, Isaev notes, are often confused with losses in the entire Berlin operation. And recalls that the irrecoverable losses of Soviet troops in it amounted to 80 people, and the total - 000 people. These are the losses of three fronts advancing in a strip 360 km, ie 000st Belarusian (commander - Zhukov), 300st Ukrainian (commander - Konev) and 1nd Belorussian (commander - Rokossovsky) .To narrow these losses to a patch of Seelow Heights is simply stupid. 1 total losses in 2 killed.In reality, the total losses of the 300th Guards and 000th armies during the offensive in the Seelow Heights area amounted to about 300 people, and irrecoverable losses - about 000 people. Here is Zhukov, the "butcher" . " www.km.ru/.../shturm-zeelovskikh-vysot-velikaya-obolgannaya-bitv I recommend that Beshanov publish his track record, such officers need to be drowned in the Kola Bay so that shoulder straps do not disgrace. Com-r division of movement SSBN K-8 cap.69r Dobryakov
  15. 8 company
    8 company April 30 2012 12: 15
    -17
    Quote: makrus
    Well, yes, the fact that we kept Stalingrad is not the result of Zhukov’s actions and the subsequent encirclement of the 6th army. It all happened by chance


    Well, yes, but the fact that the Germans were on the Volga, it also somehow somehow happened by chance. Zhukov is also not in business here, he accidentally found out about this by planting carrots in the country.
    1. makrus
      makrus April 30 2012 17: 04
      +2
      The replica is not correct.
  16. Alekseev
    Alekseev April 30 2012 13: 35
    +11
    In addition to G.K.Zhukov, by no means an infallible, but really great commander, during the Second World War there were quite stubborn and incompetent donkeys (numbering more than 8 companies).
    But the main reason for the great losses was not they at all. And to understand this, do not be a great military historian and manipulate statistical calculations.
    The main reason for the losses was highly prepared and ready to stand to death (rather than chatting on the radio), including during the Berlin operation, the German army.
    It is easy to surround it with words, to seize it, with little blood, on foreign territory, etc. In fact, it will be more difficult. And Zhukov attracted all the power of aviation, artillery, and tank formations of the front to the assault on the Seelow Heights, and did not send the infantry to flee through the minefields. Modern talkers do not understand the intensity of that struggle, even at the end of the war. We are not their one left, but someone who, fighting to the death. We could not lose the war by storming Berlin, but we could get serious "embarrassment" with inept leadership as "I wish you health."
    1. The centurion
      The centurion April 30 2012 19: 58
      +10
      Quote: Alekseev
      The main reason for the losses was highly prepared and ready to stand to death (rather than chatting on the radio), including during the Berlin operation, the German army.

      In 1974, he took the oath in the Kaliningrad region, at a mass grave near a military town located in the former Guderian barracks. Former small German town Zinten, you can outdo. And in the grave of thousands of our 10 buried. Then came home asking my father. You said that in 45 you were such cool super-fighters, you knew everything in the military business, you knew everything from a half-word, you were beating the Fritz so that they turned the jacket on. Why such a big loss? Oh son, he replied. They did not fight poorly in Belarus either, but in Prussia they fought quite differently, they just stood to the death. There were no prisoners in the Volkssturm, there were simply no, there were only dead ones. But every cloud has a silver lining, but it was not necessary to evict anyone from Prussia and now there is no one to claim Prussian folvarki. Then his father fought and with the Japanese in 45, the vaunted samurai, in his opinion, were worth nothing compared to the fritzes. He respected Fritz as a soldier, especially for the defense of East Prussia. What to say a mature enemy got ancestors.
  17. Kostyan
    Kostyan April 30 2012 14: 03
    -22
    this ignoramus ... the dim-witted boor and shooter simply and like laying 2 tank armies on Seeelow .... this is who you need to be ..... clearly who ... just an idiot ..... socialist competition ...... find out about the incident with Khetagurava ... how it happened there ... about the failed duel .... also the coward ... the ignoramus has fallen ill .... in short there is nothing to grind the water in the mortar ... clearly everything is with him .... think .. thanks to our ignoramuses (not all, I won’t generalize) to the commanders how many people have put .. everything is clear here ..... read more about down Sokolovsky .. the protector of the sump .... how he drove the armies .... what he in western nat stole .. about proud and others like him ..... stupid herd of scum ... ignoramus and just scum ..... disgrace ...... and you still defame the name of a worthy person .. writer .... read the same popel ... they were on the Seeelow .... maybe then something will come to your dim-witted brains ..... we started the call of 17-year-olds simultaneously with Germany what is this ?? it's like ??? but if all the German tank armies and motorized and everything and everything else stood on the Danube and on the Oder .. what would it be ??? the answer is clear and understandable ... we wouldn’t see Berlin ... definitely ... so pray to God .. he saved Russia .... against all odds we won .... if you have a head and not a cabbage. ... then you will understand everything .. although what am I ... unlikely .... too blinkered ..... pseudo patriots ....
    1. darkman70
      darkman70 April 30 2012 15: 37
      +9
      Yes, we have already heard these tales.
      Zhukov is a great commander and will always remain so, as if the liberals and champions of the fascists would not rave.
      Folk memory is not as easily corroded as it seems.
      Zhukov's popularity in the army was at the highest level. For veterans, he was almost a god. If Zhukov "casually laid down the army," then he would hardly have enjoyed such popularity.
      1. loc.bejenari
        loc.bejenari April 30 2012 16: 29
        -15
        this is probably a political worker in the army probably told)))
    2. Volkhov
      Volkhov April 30 2012 21: 10
      0
      It’s just that the tactics of the Trotskyists and the freemasons close to them after the loss of direct power consisted in harming from the inside, undermining the power of their rival, Stalin. On this they were easily pierced, and were already recruited by German intelligence. Zionism was also beneficial to the maximum loss of Russian.
      Therefore, "mistakes" are not only the result of poor education, but a system of genocide, when people most loyal to the Motherland self-destructed with the help of patriotic slogans.
      The actions of Zhukov, Beria, Khrushchev taken in the complex clearly show a group of Nazis in the leadership, and Beria even disappeared after the failure in Argentina, later sending a photo to the family.
      There are enough such cadres now, and when there are obvious stupidities such as entering Grozny in columns or amazing reforms, then the goal is the same - genocide.
    3. Alekseev
      Alekseev April 30 2012 21: 41
      +8
      Read it, figure it out, instead of a head of cabbage, attach your head to yourself to make sure that the Russian generals of the Second World War were a "stupid herd of filth."
      Do not touch the great writer ....
      The arguments are strong, especially for us who did not read, were not trained in letters, who flew in from the moon to discuss the history of the war and Marshal Zhukov personally.
      Probably, the highly artistic epithets "stupid scum", "ignorant and just bastard" are primarily applicable to those who easily use them in their comments. tongue
      Although, judging by the text, his "distant brains" were somehow clouded ... It happens ... wassat
      1. sealord
        sealord 1 May 2012 13: 04
        0
        C the moon flew in ?!
        Your title (present is natural) - if not a secret?
        1. Alekseev
          Alekseev 1 May 2012 19: 47
          +1
          "And my title is too well known to be called in sue ..."
          "Look at the root" do not bother too much with titles, and there were many fools with big titles (and enemies of the people, however) drinks
    4. Odinplys
      Odinplys 2 May 2012 00: 49
      +2
      Kostyan,
      Ignoramus ... not a distant boor ...... down ... sucks ... stupid scum ... a disgrace ... like you do not win ... with the head of cabbage ... blinkered pseudo patriot ...

      How much you told about yourself ... Zionist scum ...
      You still have Ssu ... ka ... answer for Sevastopol ... this is personal ...
  18. KAZAKHSTAN
    KAZAKHSTAN April 30 2012 15: 37
    +1
    For the courage and heroism shown in the battle
    near Moscow captain Bauyrzhan Momyshuly in
    1942 was introduced to the title of Hero
    Soviet Union however was honored with it
    only posthumously, December 11, 1990.
    Post war biography
    After the war, the brave officer continued
    service in the Armed Forces of the USSR. In 1948
    he graduated from the General Military Academy
    headquarters. Since 1950 - Senior Lecturer
    Military Academy of Logistics and Supply of the Soviet
    The army. Since December 1955, Colonel Momysh-
    uly - in stock. Member of the Union of Writers of the USSR.
    Entered the history of military science as an author
    tactical maneuvers and strategies that
    studied in military universities until now. Read
    lectures on combat training during the visit
    to Cuba in 1963 (published in
    Hispanic newspapers). Met with
    Minister of Defense of Cuba, Raul Castro and was
    awarded the title of Honorary Commander of the 51st
    Regiment of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Cuba.
    In the military schools of the USA, Cuba,
    Israel, Nicaragua is being studied separately
    military experience Momyshuly. "Volokolamskoe
    highway "became a must-read book for
    Palm members, and later for officers
    Israel Defense Forces. Fernando Heredia
    wrote that "most Cubans begin
    the study of Marxism-Leninism with
    "Volokolamskoe highway" ". [Specify].
    He died on June 10, 1982.

    Sayings: “National Pride
    enters into the feeling
    patriotism of Soviet people. One who is not
    respects his nation and is not proud of it (and
    there is something proud of than every nation)
    unconditional scoundrel and tramp "; "Be in love
    one’s own people doesn’t mean to hate another ”;
    “Justice hurries slowly, but
    comes inevitably ”; “Honor for bread is not
    sell "; "They say that in battle there are many
    accidents; I do not admit it, deny
    there are no accidents in battle. By chance
    any slackness is covered
    disorganization, rash actions
    officer. War is not for her
    excuse. Everything that happens in battle -
    naturally and subject to certain
    laws "; “The commander should not be either
    recklessly decisive nor
    judicious without decisiveness.
    One-sidedness is the vice of the commander ”; "The ideal of battle
    - This is a lossless battle win. The art of battle -
    it’s the gain of the battle with the least losses ”,
    “The most formidable weapon is the soul of a soldier, and
    ammunition for it is spiritual food ”,“ For
    Having entered your homeland in the fire, you won’t burn it up, "" Better
    bend under the weight of truth than flutter on
    wings of lies. "
    Bauyrzhan Momyshuly was an idol for
    Ernesto Che Guevara,

    ... What is courage? The basis of courage -
    pride. Let's see what are the sources
    pride. Neatness, purity of body and soul
    generate personal pride and
    self-discipline, self-discipline and
    to others. External slackness -
    a sign of inner squalor of man. Mud
    decomposes a person. Sloppy at home -
    sloppy in both service and work. If an employee
    outwardly loose, he is the same in work; if
    the person is accurate, he is the same in work.
    External neatness is a sign of internal
    self-discipline
    self-discipline and self-discipline
    around.
    This is where we will stop. What
    personal pride? Personal pride breeds
    the courage. The proud cannot be brave ...
    ... The idea of ​​a battle is to win it without loss,
    art- win the battle with the smallest
    losses. They say that in battle there are many
    accidents. There are no accidents in battle, there are
    surprises for opponents. Victory or
    defeat is completely causal and logical.
    Any accident covers itself
    slackness of the officer and soldier, therefore
    chance cannot be an excuse
    unscrupulous and rash official
    activities of officers and soldiers.
    1. Brother Sarych
      Brother Sarych April 30 2012 15: 43
      +4
      Nobody has ever denied his heroism - but why write frank crap here?
    2. Alekseev
      Alekseev 1 May 2012 20: 04
      +1
      Momyshuly, of course, he is a hero.
      And all that he wrote is generally true, but somehow rustic (they say it is corny).
      For example, General Grant was not a model in appearance, MI Kutuzov, in general, "earned" from his contemporaries, at least for the defeat of the Great Army, the fame of "court satyr", "voluptuous", heavy but uplifting, a cunning, passive old man.
      Let's go without a lecture, "closer to the body," as Maupassant said.
  19. KAZAKHSTAN
    KAZAKHSTAN April 30 2012 16: 00
    -2
    Two interesting books written by a military officer Volokolamsk highway and Psychology of war officer handbook
  20. 8 company
    8 company April 30 2012 16: 11
    -5
    Quote: Volodin
    What is it really trivial - yes Zhukov all 26 millions of Soviet lives and put. That was a monster ... And in general, if it were not for the Americans - we are the pipe ... This is the title of the article. For my part, the controversy is over.


    Dear author of the article, Volodin! If you take the liberty of writing articles on operational and strategic issues of the Great Patriotic War and posting them in the public domain, then have the courage to defend your point of view in an open and honest discussion. The overwhelming majority of commentators support your arguments and would certainly help you with the necessary arguments and facts. And so the impression was left that you were simply scared. This is not manly. It was for such "fighters" as you, who fled at the first danger, that Stalin was forced to issue the famous order 227 "Not a step back."
  21. KAZAKHSTAN
    KAZAKHSTAN April 30 2012 16: 11
    -1
    On the 15th we are defending. November 16, 1941
    Germans, concentrating, tidying up
    those forces that fought for Volokolamsk,
    break through with a powerful blow
    front in three places: on the right flank in
    Buigorod district is in a fierce battle with
    units of the 1077th Rifle Regiment
    Major Shekhtman, in the Avdotino district
    the front was broken in the area of ​​the 690th regiment,
    the main blow was dealt in the area of ​​Chentsy, on
    the left flank of the regiment, the second main hit as
    roundabout maneuver - in the Dubosekovo area on
    section of the 1075th rifle regiment. This is the second
    tour of the German offensive on Moscow ...
    November 17th was the brightest day
    manifestations of mass heroism by soldiers and
    officers of our division. Fair
    call the feat the 28th model of heroism, but
    that day was not an isolated incident. AT
    the same day in the area of ​​the 1077th regiment, in the area
    villages of Strokovo 11 sappers are fighting 20
    enemy tanks and heroically die. AT
    the same day in the village of Mykanino 17
    fearless under the command of a lieutenant
    Ugryumov and political instructor Gheorgiev lead
    grenade battle against 25 tanks. Out of 17 people
    only two survived and they knocked out eight
    tanks.
    The Germans were forced to turn back.
    In the area of ​​the village of Yadrovo, in the rear of the 2nd
    battalion of the 1073th infantry regiment, junior
    Lieutenant Islamkulov Mukhametkul and lieutenant
    Ogureev, accidentally finding himself in the rear with 20
    arrows, reflect the attack of the German battalion
    machine gunners. On the same day in the area
    Dubosekovo against 50 tanks are fighting under
    command of Klochkov 28 fighters of the 4th company
    Senior Lieutenant Gundilovich 1075
    regiment of Colonel Kaprov (Gundilovich
    subsequently died in the rank of major). In the same
    day 80 heroes showed massive heroism
    Commander Semyon Kraev, political instructor Akhtan
    Khasanova, at the Matrenino station 120 shooters
    under the command of Lieutenant Filimonov
    Efim Efimovich and 90 shooters under
    command of Lieutenant Tankov in the village
    Goryuny on Volokolamsk highway. That's how much
    cases took place on November 17, 1941, and not
    only a feat of 28.
    If the courage of any groups,
    units or individual fighters left
    unmarked then it does not honor
    commander, leadership, then they are not up to
    end did their duty. Would
    completely unfair and unwise if
    we are the success of all the heroes entirely
    considered merit 28. They were and are - 28, and I
    I bow to the earth before their courage.
    I consider him a model of mass heroism, but
    when they say that they were single, it’s already
    does not honor the division. The second side of the matter is
    why heroes must die, why them
    do not help out? In fact, all were accepted
    measures by General Panfilov, so
    and Kaprov, Gundilovich, but all efforts were
    unsuccessful because strength is strength, and
    enemy superiority is superiority.
    The basis of the victories of our division against six
    enemy divisions were good combat
    qualities of soldiers and commanders and actions
    General Panfilov as a leader.
    Mass heroism was not inherent in fighters
    only on the day of November 17, and everywhere.
    What is mass heroism? This is a fight
    technique, art of warfare, behavior
    soldiers and officers. Eight people will not win
    80 never, power is still power, but as
    the Kazakh proverb says, you will kill with your fist
    one, with the mind - thousands. Suvorov said that
    win not by number, but by diminishing.
  22. Kibl
    Kibl April 30 2012 16: 25
    +3
    Friends! What is there to say and razmusolivat! You, there were then? It could not have been otherwise, but about the number of victims, it’s also a war, and as you know it’s killed and sometimes shot! Eternal memory to the heroes!
  23. high school student
    high school student April 30 2012 17: 00
    +11
    Attempts to prove that it was possible to win in another way, to blame for the vain victims always carry a hidden subtext - to discredit Russian patriotism. And the further the events of the past, the more convenient it is. Those who stormed the Seelow Heights in 1945 did not discuss the expediency of the assault. Their goal was to defeat the hated enemy, get to his lair and get even for the destroyed cities and burnt villages, the death and suffering of relatives and friends. At the cost of their lives, they fulfilled their duty to the end. And it would be blasphemous to doubt that they died in vain, at the “whim" of G.K. Zhukov.
    1. darkman70
      darkman70 April 30 2012 17: 30
      +3
      high school student
      Well said.
  24. snapshot
    snapshot April 30 2012 17: 24
    +1
    no matter what the story, whatever happens or happens it is OUR Motherland, someone lived in it, someone was born, but we MUST be proud of it. Let the enemies write, rewrite, and we know and remember, and we can convey the truth ...
  25. KAZAKHSTAN
    KAZAKHSTAN April 30 2012 17: 25
    -1
    What should be the commander, officer?
    Officers are divided mainly into three categories.
    I mean militant, not civilian
    military uniforms, who also wear epaulets.
    So: melee officers; officers
    tactical considerations and appointments;
    officers (generals) of operational thinking and
    destination.
    In military literature, you are such a separation
    you will not find officers by category, in any
    case, I have not met. Maybe it's rude
    however, this can be distributed. Each
    an officer from this group has his place in
    battle order, its place in battle. Difference
    lies in the scope of leadership in
    considerations and appointments in the service. For
    how much is the officer intended, what is
    terms of reference.
    Commander - the brain of the troops, the organizer of the battle, the creator
    victories. When I write or speak of a commander, I
    I want to prove that the commander is creative
    personality. We call writers,
    artists, composers people
    creative work, but since we say that
    battle and war is not only a science, but also
    art, then why the organizer of this
    art is not a creator why are we his
    do not call a creative person. And actually
    in fact, the commander is a man of creative labor.
    The commander’s courage is in his mind and unwavering,
    adamant
  26. Dobrokhod Sergey
    Dobrokhod Sergey April 30 2012 17: 48
    +2
    Every liberal considers himself a strategist.
  27. heady andrey
    heady andrey April 30 2012 18: 05
    0
    8 company,

    I apologize, what kind of Rzhev operation are we talking about?
  28. KAZAKHSTAN
    KAZAKHSTAN April 30 2012 20: 08
    0
    Battle for Moscow
  29. The centurion
    The centurion April 30 2012 21: 31
    +5
    Regularly, once in 100-150 years in Russia, there are grand invasions. They end up for the aggressor, as a rule, very pitiable, more precisely catastrophically. Millions of Gauls, Aryans and other satellites with their biomass fertilize the soil of the endless East European Plain. Since these invasions have happened, several regularities can be identified. Gaps between invasions can be divided into 3 conditional parts.

    In the first part of the 30-50 length of years, all the theorists and practitioners of the previous invasion together sprinkle ashes on their heads, repent and implore their descendants to do nothing more than that. They cite wise ancestors, they themselves say that never, no one, under any circumstances or for any need should ever go to the East, for this is an absolutely dead thing. These Russians, as always, will respond to any of our cunning with their unpredictable stupidity, etc. etc. etc.
    In the second part of the 30-50 length of years, the newly emerged highbrow clever people and cleverly wrinkle and rub their foreheads and speak: “We do not understand anything, some kind of paradox. Everything was well planned, prepared, a good moment was chosen, the best people, minds and forces were attracted. What is the reason for the failure? ”And they begin to dig and squeeze hard. They use simplex and complex, integral and differential, dialectic and metaphysics, logic and scholasticism. Attract candidates and doctors, masters, academicians and laureates, journalists and writers. Here and our rezunchikov connect, the benefit of this sheluponi we always had enough. And finally knock themselves on the forehead and shout "eureka." Here it is a thousand and one cause of disaster. If you eliminate them, then everything will be OK.
    And now comes the third part of the 30-50 years. Former and new highbrow clever people and clever people, again strongly wrinkled and rubbed their foreheads and uttered new goals and objectives. Some pop-eyed Madeleine Albright will consider that, with a population density of less than 2 people per square kilometer, the territory should be interned in favor of the world community. Some dark-black Kondolizka Rice will announce Afghanistan as a springboard for promoting democracy in Central Asia. It does not matter that while Madeleine is viewed as a shizu, and from Afghanistan, instead of the triumphal march of democracy, the skin of another Dunkirk. Ladies work hard. The main task of this part is to unite Europe and find the next Fuhrer or Buonaparte. It is not so easy. And the former European Fuhrers did not immediately agree; at the very least, the history of the school was taught and initially sent highbrow and hook-like theorists to three Russian letters. And united Europe still strives to crack at the seams. But the revenge-seekers work hard, our Vlasovists of all stripes harm us hard, and they are helped greatly, and if everything sticks together ....... the story will repeat again.
    In this story, everything would be nothing if it were not for one BUT. In order to pack these millions of Gauls, Aryans, Vlasovites and other satellites, you must put at least as many of your boys, otherwise it does not work.
    And we now live on the border of the second and third parts, because all these foreign bugs and our home-grown candidates for policemen, elders and burgomasters fuss so much.
    Here there is something to think about.
  30. Prosto vovochka
    Prosto vovochka April 30 2012 22: 05
    +9
    My grandfather died at these heights. From July 41st to April 18th, the 45th. And did not reach. And some ... will say that he died in vain? I am alive and there are, and you are alive and this .... unfortunately also alive. And what, the life of my grandfather for nothing? Penis to you in the anus on the tonsils so that the head does not stagger Mr. Beshanov.
  31. AK-74-1
    AK-74-1 April 30 2012 22: 43
    +3
    What to say our "partners" have one story, we have our own story. History is a way of managing public consciousness. A lot of myths have been imposed on us that do not directly correspond to our history and everywhere they try to discredit our state. Which ultimately led to the death of MY COUNTRY. This was done expertly for which you can take off your hat in front of the scoundrels. But our children must return to the Danube and Neman, to the Gulf of Riga and the Carpathians.
    1. st. michman
      st. michman 1 May 2012 17: 02
      +1
      About a different story. In one of the Westernist books I read that it turns out that the Second World War began on 07.12/1941. XNUMX
  32. Isk1984
    Isk1984 April 30 2012 23: 08
    +2
    And most importantly, these gan .. we are always wrinkled by connoisseurs of ourselves .... you might think they are smarter than the rates of the Supreme Commander of the USSR .... nothing history will dissolve everything in its place
  33. Joru
    Joru 1 May 2012 09: 19
    -10
    [b] Everything is known in comparison. V. Astafiev, a participant (private) of the Second World War wrote: Zhukov is a great killer of the Russian people. Read Suvorov (Rezun). I do not understand the Russians, the more they treat them the more they love !!!!!!!! !!
    1. The centurion
      The centurion 1 May 2012 10: 01
      +7
      Quote: joru
      I do not understand Russian

      It's just great that you do not understand. This means that at least we will win one more time.
    2. st. michman
      st. michman 1 May 2012 17: 09
      0
      Joru, the more dubious they are, the more they love them
      Yes, the Anglo-Saxons as soon as they start stroking their heads and luring them with gingerbread, so immediately in Russia such a paradise begins, you do not know how to brush it off.
    3. Alekseev
      Alekseev 1 May 2012 19: 31
      0
      For a lover of literature. The opinions of fiction writers are interesting, but in no case can not be considered a criterion of truth.
      For example, L.N. Tolstoy, for all his genius "was honored" to write the Gospel of "Leo", and I do not want to touch on the details of his personal life.
      M.A.Sholokhov, who received the Nobel and Stalin Prizes !! in the same era for his great works (who preferred to brilliantly describe the "fatal moments" of this world, without emphasizing who is good and who is bad)) had a very positive attitude towards the personality of G.K. Zhukov ...
      Soldier Rasputin (well, not Gregory), saw the dirt and blood of the Great War from his trench as a private IPTAB. War is disgusting, but "in war, as in war." There is probably a difference between Napoleon and his grenadier, being an "engineer of souls" is simply not enough to have the right to accuse the murderer of the Russian people, he didn’t manage to destroy the Germans in Ukraine, but it was as simple as two fingers ... his ...
    4. Odinplys
      Odinplys 2 May 2012 01: 03
      +2
      Quote: joru
      . I do not understand the Russians, the more they relate to them, the more they love them !!!!!!!!!!

      Russia cannot be understood by the mind ... Arshin cannot be measured by the general ...
      She has a special to become ... in Russia you just need to Believe ......
    5. smile
      smile 4 May 2012 22: 44
      +1
      joru
      Advice, read the book pseudonym of the author Gryzun, the name of the book - How Victor Suvorov wrote the story. The book quotes all the inventions of the rezin. It is written in the style of rezun. A huge mass of links and information of a military-political and technical nature, a stone on a stone that does not leave his intentional lies. Read - I read Suvorov ... you need to know the enemy in person.
  34. Very smart
    Very smart 1 May 2012 14: 04
    +3
    War in any case is a grief and a great calamity. At this time, generals arose and stood out, whose talent, skill, will to win helped to win, Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov was a great military leader. Almost all the most significant battles of the Great Patriotic War were fought under his direct command: the battle for Leningrad, the battle for Moscow, Stalingrad, Operation Bagration, etc. Seelow Heights is one such victory that led to the capture of Berlin. In this case, losses are inevitable. To represent Zhukov as a cannibal is a flawed position. Listening to konyukturschikov who either make grandmothers or promote themselves on such statements is a thankless job. That Rezun (a traitor to the Motherland), that Beshanov (the konyukturschik) that Ekho Moskvy (the chernushny analogue of NTV on the radio) - all solve their problems. And dirtying the name of a great man is as easy as shelling pears. He will not answer, he will not stuff his face, and he will not even sue. It is completely safe and at the same time you can stink all over the world.
  35. Strashila
    Strashila 1 May 2012 16: 33
    +3
    Everyone imagines himself a strategist seeing the battle from the sidelines. In recent years, we like to scare people with the numbers of losses during the war. Some kind of battle is being fought ... and attack ... it started ... 100 losses a day ... who is more. And for what period, and what irretrievable or other losses are silent ... what pursued the battle and what it really achieved is silence ... it’s not interesting to shock the number of losses. Then there will be rebuttals, of course not on the front page and in small print but who cares about the truth ... there is no jaundice in it. And no one wonders who took Berlin ... if you believe the Borodists, all the soldiers fell in the 000st, who defeated the Japanese militarists in the 41th, if everyone was put in a couple of layers in the ground in the fight against unchallenged ... who conceived our parents after the war years ... it's not interesting ... Stalinist propaganda.
    1. Alekseev
      Alekseev 1 May 2012 20: 20
      +2
      Strashila, We have recently been fond of scaring people with numbers of losses during the war. Some kind of battle is being fought ... and atu ... it started ... 100 losses a day ... who is more.
      I completely agree with you, but I don’t understand what it is from.
      Remind the price of victory? And so everyone knows that the price is high ....
      Show that we are fools? "A very stupid nation, sir"? Probably to prove that the Germans were accidentally defeated ...
      Here and on the forum, some degenerates directly carry out this thesis ...
      Well, God be their judge, with the upcoming Victory Day!
  36. st. michman
    st. michman 1 May 2012 16: 53
    +1
    Who will take Berlin? Are we or allies? This question was raised by Stalin at a meeting before the General Staff and before Zhukov.
    It was supposed to inflict several attacks on the western front. And it was the troops under the command of Zhukov who were charged with fighting in Berlin, and Konev had other goals and a different direction of attack.
    When developing plans of operation, several options are always made. One, developed by Konev "just in case" and provided for the attack on Berlin.
    In Berlin itself, there were practically no troops left at the time the operation began, almost everything that could be pulled into the Eastern direction in order to keep the Eastern Front until the capture of Berlin by our allies. In turn, these, with permission, the Allies, in violation of the agreements at the Yalta Conference, decided to occupy Berlin, which naturally could not please either Stalin or the command.
    The assault on the Zeelov Heights was very (weakly said) difficult. From 1,5 to 3 km passed daily. Seeing that the troops did not succeed in taking them, Konev was ordered to turn his troops to the north, with the aim of striking and taking Berlin. And indeed, everything was fine from the beginning, but then Konev’s troops got bogged down, but by this time the Zeelovsky heights were taken and the units under the command of G.K.Zhukov entered the operational space.
    1. loc.bejenari
      loc.bejenari 1 May 2012 22: 32
      -1
      Yes, why take the Allies Berlin
      even in Yalta they divided the whole of Europe with Stalin and clearly demarcated the line of demarcation
      why should they climb another 200 kilometers and put about 50000 soldiers (despite the fact that the United States lost 300000 dead during the entire war with Germany + Japan)
      it’s only we took Kiev to the anniversary of the revolution — and the imperialists do not care — take Berlin by May 1 or not
      and so they controlled the main thing - industrial and raw material areas of Germany
  37. bublic
    bublic 1 May 2012 23: 29
    +1
    to judge the decision of a military commander is difficult. we cannot judge from what he made this or that decision. It’s fashionable to criticize the Red Army and Stalin. not fashionable to think.
  38. kefip
    kefip 2 May 2012 00: 17
    +1
    it seems to me if we fought as allies we would not see victory
    1. loc.bejenari
      loc.bejenari 2 May 2012 01: 25
      -2
      if we had fought like they, millions would not have died in meaningless assaults on the forehead of nameless skyscrapers and did not die of hunger in prisoner of war camps through the fault of mediocre commanders
      although our people were sometimes punched for meaningful actions, and for the reason that there was especially no one to fight at 45, they rained up all, including 17 year olds
      for idiots from this site who believe that the storming of Berlin in the forehead is a genius of general thought — the Kurland group of Germans was isolated and not touched, and on May 10 she amicably captured - how many lives of our soldiers were saved
      1. 8 company
        8 company 2 May 2012 10: 06
        +1
        Quote: loc.bejenari
        the Kurland group of Germans was isolated and not touched, and on May 10 she amicably went prisoner-how many lives of our soldiers were saved


        Great example. In addition to him, there are many examples of thoughtful actions by the talented commanders of Rokossovsky, Chernyakhovsky, Gorbatov, Katukov and many others. Without them, we could not have won the war, we would simply have laid the whole population down in the same way as millions of peasants had starved to death for industrialization.
  39. Voodoo
    Voodoo 3 May 2012 13: 47
    -2
    I completely agree. It’s not a matter of the operation on the Seelow Heights. This, so to speak, is the final part of Zhukov's "bloody path". Maybe he is a genius commander, but, in comparison with the same Rokossovsky, all his victories are often implicated in unjustified soldier's blood. It all started with Khalkhin Gol and Khasan ...
  40. them
    them 3 May 2012 22: 56
    -3
    There is such a bike (recollections of one of the participants in the conversation): Zhukov with Eisenhower in a restaurant in Moscow. Aise, how did you manage to overcome German minefields, cat. shot by machine guns? We could not solve this problem. Zhukov-- this is nonsense: take more infantry and in front ...
    Here, in fact, are all the comments on this article.
    1. ward
      ward 3 May 2012 23: 08
      0
      If you ever get into the army ... there is such a rule ... a set of instructions for all occasions ... and so it says about it ... there is such a technique when artillery beats right before the advancing infantry ... is killed a whole herd of hares ... and exchanging ... and visual cover ... and suppressing fire resistance ... and Eisenhower was a famous storyteller ...
      1. them
        them 5 May 2012 10: 10
        0
        I wish you to become this hare (with the smell in your pants). And from the fact that we continue to bow to idiots who have killed hundreds of lives, we continue to do this now. And I know about the army by hearsay.
  41. zaqwsx
    zaqwsx 14 May 2012 01: 15
    -1
    The USSR was afraid that the Americans would approach Berlin from the west faster. Therefore, it was decided to give Berlin to Zhukov, and Konev from the south had to go around Berlin and meet the allies. After a significant delay of Zhukov at the Zeelovsky heights, Konev went to Berlin from the south, making his way through the swamps. Actually Konev from the very beginning was not happy with the fact of the return of Berlin to Zhukov.
    As for the losses, they are considered two numbers - killed and wounded, not%. Historian, damn it.
    1. rainer
      rainer 20 May 2012 19: 12
      0
      Do you know that on average there are 2-3 wounded per person killed? This is a medical statistics for the whole war .... And the fact that the author, based on the total losses, is trying to determine the number of those killed is normal ...