Military Review

Experimental Ukrainian firearms. Part of 3. Submachine guns "Goblin" and "Elf"

52
Submachine guns, which were developed in Ukraine immediately after the collapse of the Soviet Union, unlike pistols, cannot boast of “exotic” solutions in their designs, however, they are also interesting enough for familiarization. Despite the fact that in specialized publications about this weapons they talked a lot, and mostly only in a positive way, these samples did not fill the whole world, and very few people know about them inside the country, since the weapons were not adopted by either the army or law enforcement agencies.


Submachine guns Goblin

One rather interesting Ukrainian developments of the late twentieth century, a machine pistol Goblin. It is not entirely clear what justified the choice of a name for a new weapon. Appearance in this PP if not "elegant", but it is quite acceptable, especially for weapons of this class. This submachine gun is positioned as a weapon for concealed carry and has an emerging design. It was assumed that the Goblin submachine gun should be of interest to the country's security service, but the lack of funding from the state did not allow the design to be brought up to acceptable reliability indicators and deploy large-scale production.

Experimental Ukrainian firearms. Part of 3. Submachine guns "Goblin" and "Elf"


For those who are interested in handguns, the similarity with the Russian PP-90 submachine gun will be obvious. It is not uncommon to encounter heated debates concerning the copying of weapons. If we talk about the very idea of ​​a submachine gun with a similar design, then the ARES submachine gun, which Francis Warini developed as early as 70, can put a bullet in such disputes. But when it comes to direct copying, it unfortunately many fans argue, either. Of course, the weapon cannot be completely different, since both submachine guns are made in the same layout and according to the same pattern of operation of the automation, but it is impossible to speak about full copying, which will be seen in a more detailed study of the design.

As already mentioned above, the SMG is actively advertised in various publications. So in one of them flashed a phrase about the uniqueness of a new weapon. In particular, it is said that at a distance in 500 meters a bullet from a submachine gun Goblin punches 4,5 a millimeter of armor. At the same time, the weapon was developed for the 9x18 and 9x19 cartridges. Needless to say that this is really "beyond the power of any modern submachine gun." As you know, it is the ammunition that determines the main characteristics of the weapon, as well as the prospect of further development is also determined by the cartridge. Above the head, no one has yet managed to jump. Even with the perfectly selected length of the barrel of a submachine gun that would allow to fully use the energy of the powder charge to achieve the maximum possible speed of a bullet, it would be foolish to speak of at least more or less aimed shooting at 500 meters. Stupidity can be called and the declared figures on armor penetration. It is impossible to ignore the mention of the fact that according to individual statements from the prototype of the Goblin submachine gun was made 26 thousands of shots, while the weapon was not subjected to all this time or cleaning is not lubricated and has retained its performance.

Actually, such statements are often found in articles on Ukrainian handguns, it remains only to guess whether the journalists attributed an additional zero and instead of 500 meters should read 50, or doubt the competence of the person telling about the new weapon. There is a completely logical question: why is this nonsense duplicated in this material? As I see it, such, let's call them softly, “inaccuracies” in the description of weapons must be pointed out, as many who are far from the world of firearms can easily believe in these fantastic indicators that cannot be reproduced in reality even in ideal conditions.



In open sources, there is a mention of three versions of Goblin submachine guns, with serial numbers 1,2 and 3. Transformer submachine gun is also mentioned, which is obviously nothing more than a Goblin 3 submachine gun with minor improvements regarding ergonomics and external kind of. The data for each individual version of the weapon varies greatly from source to source, however, this is not surprising, since the weapon was in development and in the process of solving some separate problems in the design of new submachine guns, the parameters of the weapon could change every week. From the information that was found, it can be concluded that the Goblin-1 submachine gun was developed with the 9x18 PM, Goblin-2 cartridges for 9x19, Goblin-3 or Transformer based on the semi-free gate automation system. Exact classification, now can give unless the designers who worked on weapons, because, in this case, it is only for reference.

Appearance and ergonomics of submachine guns Goblin

Before assessing the appearance of the weapon and its ease of use, it is probably worth mentioning that this submachine gun is more of a special weapon than a product for general distribution. Like it or not, but the ability of the submachine gun to fold into a relatively small "brick" is needed only for concealed carrying. You can often find the opinion that such a weapon would be completely superfluous in the armament of the crews of armored vehicles, pilots, drivers. It is difficult to argue that a weapon with the ability to fold into compact dimensions is necessary, however, with the spread and cheapness of body armor, the effectiveness of submachine guns decreases, which means that, in the context of effectiveness of use, a small-sized machine gun is more acceptable option, but not cartridges of 9x18 or 9x19.

Himself a submachine gun is a structure with the ability to fold in the middle. One half of the weapon is, in essence, the submachine gun itself, the second plays the role of the butt in the unfolded position. To reduce the size of the weapon, during firing, the bolt, rolling back, enters the butt, in which the buffer device is located, reducing the fire. It is the fastest normal spring with a guide. Back to reduce the size while maintaining the weapon barrel length, shutter "rolled" on the trunk.

Since the barrel and the butt of the weapon are located on the same line, the submachine gun is obviously quite stable during firing, which is facilitated by the buffer device and the long stroke of the bolt group. However, this arrangement has its drawbacks, since the sights have to be mounted on high racks in order for the shooter not to collapse his neck while aiming. In this case, the sights are two stamped parts that have the ability to fold. Given that the front sight is mounted on the front of the weapon, and the rear sight on the butt, we can say with confidence that during operation the submachine gun will lose precisely because of the sights, which sooner or later loosen up, as well as the connection receiver with a butt. However, if you do not count on the previously mentioned 500 meters, and will be modestly limited to fifty, then this is not such a big problem.



Very original in weapons implemented by switching fire modes. The trigger has the ability to move perpendicular to the receiver. So, when the trigger is displaced to the right, the weapon fires with a cut-off of two rounds; when shifted to the left, the submachine gun goes into automatic fire mode. The solution is quite interesting, undoubtedly, but random shots in the switching process cannot be ruled out if the shooter does not calculate the strength from adrenaline in the blood.

In front of the receiver at the bottom, there is a small cocking handle that remains stationary when firing. Behind it is an additional handle to hold a submachine gun. The same handle plays the role of the holder of an additional weapon shop in the unfolded position of the submachine gun, the magazine in the folded position of the weapon enters the slot of this handle.

It is not difficult to notice that the design itself allows the weapon to be folded in many ways similar to the design of the Gnome pistol, which proves back that any developments in the field of firearms are not in vain, as they can be used in other works, although in this case most successful.

This submachine gun, with such an abundance of stamped parts, had to be very cheap in mass production. However, it seems to me that even if weapons are adopted, it would hardly be necessary to release more than several thousand weapons, since these submachine guns are very specific and not suitable for mass weapons because of their features.

The design of the submachine gun Goblin

For models of submachine guns Goblin-1 and Goblin-2 is characterized by the use of the automation system, built on the principle of using the recoil energy in the free course of the shutter. In order to make the weapon more stable when firing and reduce the rate of firing, the designers used a buffer device that reduces the speed of the shutter. It is noteworthy that at the same time the possibility of firing with the cut-off of two rounds was realized. As I see it, when shooting with a cutoff in the 2-3 cartridge, the time between shots should be minimal in order to achieve the minimum removal of the weapon from the aiming line, and, accordingly, reduce the distance between two or three hits. But for some reason, the designers decided otherwise.

It can be assumed that the decrease in the rate of fire in submachine guns Goblin was necessary because of overheating of the weapon during intensive shooting, as there is information about the implementation of forced cooling of the barrel of the weapon. It is implemented in the simplest way. Shutter moving in the receiver, plays a role of a kind of pump which "rides" the air around the stem. However, it is not entirely clear exactly where the warm air should go with this design, since the receiver is actually deaf and does not have ventilation holes either on the side surfaces or on top. It is obvious that such a solution could not provide proper cooling, and therefore required, and reduce the rate of firing.

One of the interesting features in the design of weapons is the use of a barrel with a polygonal cut. Hence apparently went information about the incredible survivability of weapons. At the moment, there is not a single version of the barrel design that would not require cleaning, not to mention the fact that the barrel design does not affect the maintenance of other weapons mechanisms. And yes, the polygon-cut barrel can really go without cleaning longer, it has a greater resource, and the cleaning itself is much easier, but even here it will largely depend on the quality of workmanship.

With regard to automation of the system in cases of weapons and Goblin-3 Transformer, you can not say anything for sure. There is a mention that the automation system is based on a semi-free shutter, but how exactly this information is implemented is not.

Characteristics of submachine guns Goblin

As it was said earlier, it turned out to be difficult to find exact characteristics for all weapon variants, therefore the figures given below do not claim accuracy and are more likely for reference.

It feeds weapons from detachable magazines with a capacity of 25 or 32 cartridge, it is obvious that with stores of larger capacity weapons will not be able to fold. The weight of the submachine gun is 1,9 kilogram. The length in the folded position is 290 millimeters, in the unfolded - 510 millimeters, which, most likely, is far from reality, as the ratio of the unfolded and folded sample speaks about the difference almost twice in length. The rate of firing 400-500 shots per minute. At a distance in 100 meters, the accuracy of the weapon was noted, allowing 85 to “put” percent of bullets into a half-height target, although it is not specified under what mode of fire.

"Pros" and "cons" submachine guns Goblin

The main advantage of these submachine guns, of course, is their ability to fold into a relatively small parallelepiped. But this “plus” obviously cannot be attributed to positive qualities for weapons of mass. So, in order to bring the submachine gun Goblin into full combat readiness, first you need to expand it, then raise the aiming devices, send the cartridge into the chamber and then fire. All these procedures take incomparably more time compared to driving the combat readiness of weapons more conventional design.

So if we talk about the advantages and disadvantages of this submachine gun, then you must first determine for what tasks it will be used. If we talk about Goblin submachine guns in the context of concealment weapons, for which there are no requirements for combat readiness, the submachine gun is not bad at all. If we talk about the massively popular submachine gun, then he will lose in all respects "classic" designs.



Talking about the reliability and parameters of the weapon as a whole is meaningless, as it is a submachine gun that was under development. Not only are there no truthful data on the combat characteristics of weapons, but also those characteristics that were in reality could go a long way in serial production of weapons.

Submachine gun Elf

In the continuation of the story about weapons with the names of fantasy creatures, try to get acquainted with the pistols, machine gun Elf. Difference from the previous considered submachine guns, they already have a more familiar layout, one can even say more, many Elf submachine guns are called counterparts of Israeli Uzi. Let's try to figure out what this weapon is, and also how correct it is to call them Ukrainian Uzi.

Appearance and ergonomics of submachine gun Elf

In the external examination of weapons, the issue of similarity with the Israeli submachine gun does not even arise, the Ukrainian designers tried to improve the weapons, and many experts agree that they tried, and did not improve.
Of course, there is no complete resemblance to submachine guns Elf with an Israeli PP, but even the location of the weapon controls suggests that this particular submachine gun was made, at least with an eye to Uzi.



On the left side of the weapon under the thumb of the right-hand holder is the switch of fire modes. To ensure safe handling of the weapon and to avoid a random shot, there is a button on the back of the handle (you can only call it with a stretch) with an automatic safety lock. At the bottom of the pistol grip, the designers placed the store's latch, although it is obvious that with large-capacity stores that protrude beyond the dimensions of the handle, such a latch is unlikely to be comfortable with its small dimensions. In front of the safety bracket of the Elf submachine guns, there is an additional handle to hold, it also serves as the location of the additional store. There are several versions of this handle, including without the possibility of installing an additional store in it. At the top of the receiver, front and rear are the front sight and the rear sight, between them is a handle for cocking the shutter, which remains stationary during firing. Also there are variants of weapons, where the cocking handle is made in the form of two stops on both sides of the receiver or in the form of a folding handle on the left side of the weapon. The shoulder rest is retractable, also found in several versions, but this detail is fundamentally from each other in different samples.

It should be noted that the more the designers gave the weapon a presentable appearance, the more the submachine gun looked like an Israeli Uzi.

The design of submachine gun Elf

The basis for the Ukrainian submachine gun Elf became the automation system using the recoil energy during the free course of the shutter. The shot comes from the open shutter, so you can find the most interesting information that the submachine gun has no recoil when firing. So, in many articles about this weapon you can find the phrase that in this particular submachine gun the slide group moves forward during a shot, while at the Kalashnikov assault rifle it moves backwards. Next, there is usually a discussion about a balanced automation system, which, of course, does not smell here.
The designers did not leave everything at the level of the cheapest and simple submachine guns. In addition to performing its main function, the bolt group also plays the role of a kind of “pump” that pumps air between the receiver and the barrel of the weapon, cooling it. It can be assumed that such a solution, in addition to cooling the barrel, also serves as a “moderator” for the bolt group, since the weapon’s firing rate is 400-500 shots per minute, but this is only a guess. In this case, the statement about the balanced automation system starts to be at least a little truthful, because right at the moment of the shot that part of the bolt group that cools the barrel of the weapon continues to move forward, but is it worth it to consider the balanced automation system? In my opinion, definitely not.



Separately, it is noted that the trigger mechanism of the weapon is completely different from the Israeli Uzi, much simpler and consists of fewer parts.

The barrel of the submachine gun has a polygonal cut.

Characteristics of submachine gun Elf

In the process of searching for information on this weapon, you can repeatedly stumble upon the data that the division of submachine guns into Elf-1 and Elf-2, according to the used ammunition, is not entirely correct. It is obvious that in the process of working on a weapon, many of its parameters changed, and since the work process itself was not over, it does not even make sense to talk about any specific data. Nevertheless, in order of acquaintance, the figures cite at least some, but necessary.



The Elf-1 submachine gun is powered by 9x18 PM ammunition. It has a mass of 2,45 kilograms. The length of the weapon barrel is 240 millimeters, with a total length of 360 / 560 millimeters with the butt folded / unfolded. It feeds from shops on 25 or 32 cartridge.

The Elf-2 submachine gun "eats" 9x19 ammunition. It has a mass of 2,5 kilograms. With the same barrel length in 240 millimeters, the weapon is longer - 416 and 580 millimeters with the butt folded and unfolded. It also feeds from stores with a cartridge capacity of 25 and 32.

Positive and negative qualities of Elf submachine guns

Even with a strong desire for any exceptional quality weapons can not be noted. The reason is not at all that the weapon is bad, just from whatever angle you try to look, you still compare the submachine guns Elf with Uzi. Yes, the Ukrainian weapon turned out easier, perhaps more simple, if you look at the trigger mechanism. However, it is not entirely clear why it was necessary to reduce the rate of fire by half, and also add forced cooling of the barrel of the weapon. Even if we assume that all this was done in order to prevent overrun of ammunition, then why couldn’t it have stopped at all the usual 600 shots per minute? In general, there are more questions than answers and it is impossible to give an adequate assessment of the work in progress.

Elf is very much alive

Despite the fact that the design office "Spetstekhnika" is long gone, you can still find relatively fresh statements about the adoption of the Elf submachine guns into service. Of course, it does not go further than statements, although it is possible that a small amount of these weapons are still present in the military and law enforcement agencies, but more likely as a weapon for familiarization.



This begs the question of how a weapon can be somewhere except in museums and warehouses, awaiting disposal, because the Elf has not been mass-produced. The answer to this question can be the submachine guns TASKO 7ET10 and 7ET9. These submachine guns are a continuation of the work on Elf, they have lost all the features, in the form of forced cooling of the barrel, the very barrel with polygonal cutting and have become very close in design to the Uzi submachine gun.

Both versions of submachine guns are based on the Elf-2 model. The 9 model uses 7,62x25 cartridges, the 10 model is powered by 9x19 ammunition. Judging by the individual reviews, which are not so many, the weapon needs to be improved, the quality from one submachine gun to another varies, but the price of the weapon is more than low. And again, it should be noted that in this case, submachine guns in their design are not much different from Uzi, which almost 65 years.



We can not keep silent about another interesting development that concerns the Elf submachine gun, namely the three-row store. Unfortunately, there is no information about whether the Elf submachine gun version was designed for this store. Due to the fact that the store is thicker, he obviously simply would not have got into the handle of the weapon. The design of the store is nowhere easier. The cartridges, arranged in three rows, are rebuilt in two rows as they are consumed, and the feeder, in order to pass a narrower section of the store, simply protrudes through the slot in the case. It goes without saying that it is not possible to assess the reliability, but judging by the simplicity of the design, we can say that such a shop will work, at least it will be.

Сonclusion

As with many other Ukrainian developments, the Elf submachine gun is far from clear and transparent. It remains unclear why it was impossible to say as is that the goal of the work is to improve the older foreign model. It is clear that the trigger mechanism of its own design was used in the design and the bolt group has its own unique features and is not much like the Uzi bolt, but the external similarity of the weapon is obvious. Perhaps one of the leaders of the design bureau was an ardent fan of Israeli weapons, and the external similarity is explained precisely by this. In the middle of the 90-ies, at the time of the development of submachine guns, the Elf was a mass of different software with better ergonomics, why it was impossible to take them as a basis?

In any case, the development of Elf submachine guns, at least to some extent, proved to be successful, as the TASKO company now offers for its export the simplified versions, although obviously not in the volumes in which the management of the company would like.



If we talk in general about the Ukrainian machine pistols, which were developed in the walls of "Special Equipment", it is impossible not to notice that the designers tried to make their weapons too complicated in pursuit of higher characteristics. If we started the production of domestic weapons from scratch, then we had to start with the simplest structures, after consulting in advance and finding out what kind of weapon some potential customers need and whether it is necessary at all. As a result, it turned out that the weapon seems to be developed as well as some money is allocated for it, only it turned out to be massively unnecessary, there is nowhere to produce it, but what they have developed is well done, put it on the shelf.

Sources:
infogun.ru
silovik.net
zbroya.com.ua
modernfirearms.net
zonwar.ru
112.ua
Author:
Articles from this series:
Experimental Ukrainian firearms. Part of 2. Pistols "Khortytsya" and KBS-1 "Viy"
Experimental Ukrainian firearms. Part of 1. Pistols PSH and "Gnome"
52 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya April 7 2018 06: 07
    +8
    PP miserable, like everything on 404.
    1. Vard
      Vard April 7 2018 06: 34
      +5
      I agree ... Full crap ...
      1. Dam
        Dam April 7 2018 20: 34
        +1
        As they look like imperfections, they shoot. Particularly pleased with the "500 m armor penetration"
        1. TermNachTer
          TermNachTer 20 June 2018 16: 30
          0
          Here the question is not about performance characteristics, but about the budget cut. R&D was carried out, money spent, and the fact that it turned out to be complete crap, so it was clear from the beginning.
  2. Theodore
    Theodore April 7 2018 06: 46
    +1
    Better Stechkin! By the way, they sold here here, but without automatic fire.
  3. wicked pinnochio
    wicked pinnochio April 7 2018 07: 28
    +3
    goblin and elf, and I thought it was the new leaders of the Maydan and it turns out to be
  4. Amateur
    Amateur April 7 2018 07: 28
    +2
    Another circle "Skillful hands" stop
  5. Egor-dis
    Egor-dis April 7 2018 07: 36
    +3
    "Goblin" what is the exact name. Although the Ukrainian "elf" is also the goblin.
  6. Yak28
    Yak28 April 7 2018 08: 13
    +1
    It’s like PP of handicraft production. In general, the weapons of Soviet designers were always outwardly squalid and not very convenient, unlike Western models where the weapons usually look good outwardly, have convenient pistol grips, different handles for convenient retention under the forearm, etc. If in Russia today they are trying to keep up to date, in Ukraine it is the other way around. For example, look at the old man MP5 and the news of the Ukrainian defense industry, that select wink

    1. Monarchist
      Monarchist April 7 2018 09: 27
      +1
      “The weapons of Soviet designers have always been outwardly squalid and not particularly convenient,” here I agree in part: 1) the appearance is not yet a guarantee of quality. “Dad” looked relatively good, and the quality of work was like that. But Sudeeva PP looked elegant and high-quality. 2) in the west, there were also enough outwardly poor samples: the Mauser K96 cannot be called a model of elegance, and the M16 looks elegant, but inferior to the quality of the AK.
      1. Yak28
        Yak28 April 7 2018 10: 11
        0
        Of course, appearance is not a guarantee of quality, but you must agree that it’s nice to hold high-quality comfortable weapons in hand. Yes and M16 with quality not worse than AK
    2. loft79
      loft79 April 7 2018 10: 45
      +2
      Quote: Yak28
      In general, the weapons of Soviet designers were always outwardly squalid and not very convenient, unlike Western models where weapons usually look good outwardly

      Do not confuse experimental samples, pre-production and serial. Experimental ones are created in the OP for working out the concept, often they are sharpened by Uncle Vasya with golden hands (sorry it used to be, before the advent of modern CNC machines). MP 5 did not immediately turn into a "modern version from the image." hi


      1. Yak28
        Yak28 April 7 2018 13: 04
        0
        So the ancient MP 5 early versions in your photo, it still looks better than modern Ukrainian software and most of our serial weapons of those years wink
        1. loft79
          loft79 April 7 2018 15: 12
          +1
          Quote: Yak28
          most of our serial weapons of those years

          I never agree. ) We look at Fn fal, G3, AK of those years and we see approximately the same workmanship, the same materials.
          1. Yak28
            Yak28 April 7 2018 15: 38
            0
            By the way, the Fn fal and G3 are excellent automatic rifles, if the USSR didn’t give out for free, and didn’t transfer AK production technology to anyone, then the Fn fal and G3 would be the most massive. Later, Western models began to develop, the Picatinny rail appeared, various attachments , laser designators, collimator and other sights, a large introduction of plastic, comfortable handles for holding. Over the years, as always with a delay, this will appear on Russian weapons.
            1. 4thParasinok
              4thParasinok April 10 2018 20: 03
              +1
              Quote: Yak28
              By the way, Fn fal and G3 are excellent automatic rifles, if the USSR did not give out for free, and did not transfer AK manufacturing technology to anyone, then Fn fal and G3 would be the most massive.

              it’s immediately clear that you don’t have any idea what shooting with bursts of 7,62x51 parton, or the price of “the most massive automatic rifles” is. Yes, and do not forget the saying: "if yes, if only mushrooms in the mouth ...".
      2. Dam
        Dam April 7 2018 20: 43
        0
        And for me, saiga 9 * 19 shoots no worse than mp 5, but lives much longer. And it costs 6 times cheaper (Vityaz, unfortunately did not own). And it’s incorrect to compare arches with PP, since it’s a carbine
  7. Micfoster
    Micfoster April 7 2018 09: 22
    +1
    Quote: Yak28
    For example, look at the old man MP5 and the news of the Ukrainian defense industry, that select

    I will choose PP-2000
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok April 10 2018 20: 04
      0
      Quote: Micfoster
      I will choose PP-2000

      controversial decision ...
  8. Monarchist
    Monarchist April 7 2018 09: 33
    +2
    Quote: Vard
    I agree ... Full crap ...

    And the "elf" seemed pretty pretty to me. If Pan Pedro offers me, I won’t refuse
    1. Curious
      Curious April 7 2018 18: 31
      +1
      These were the costs of growth. All this is in the past.
      So you better turn to Pisarenko. Sorry, Fort 226.
      1. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok April 10 2018 20: 06
        0
        Quote: Curious
        These were the costs of growth. All this is in the past.
        So you better turn to Pisarenko. Sorry, Fort 226.

        I see an ordinary ultrasound, but I don’t see a weapon genius.
  9. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 April 7 2018 10: 59
    +3
    The finish is rough, the sample taken as a basis is foreign. For some reason, I immediately remembered Chechnya from Borzy.
  10. Lerych
    Lerych April 7 2018 12: 14
    +2
    For bandyuganovskih showdown will go ... Grab a small factory ...: /
  11. polpot
    polpot April 7 2018 12: 35
    +2
    An attempt to make replicas of the Czech and Polish models of the 50-60s of the last century and the American ones of the end of 1960, there is nowhere for anyone to use.
  12. tracer
    tracer April 7 2018 17: 49
    +2
    Met in the garage two drunken locksmiths. We were indulging in something and it turned out such a Pinocchio.
    1. beeper
      beeper April 8 2018 21: 41
      +1
      Comrade Tracer, if you were drunk smile ! And then "in all seriousness and with a smart look" in some kind of "garage cooperative", their "shooters" were running and they talked a lot about them "bylits" to ukroSMI, even the Russian magazine "Weapons" was enchanted with their "unique" crafts winked .
  13. Shelest2000
    Shelest2000 April 7 2018 20: 16
    +3
    Lord, look at this squalor and understand that the phrase "hands from .. opy" is directly related to "gunsmiths" of 404. Yes, and not only to "gunsmiths" ...
  14. Catfish
    Catfish April 8 2018 03: 00
    0
    Quote: Curious
    These were the costs of growth. All this is in the past.
    So you better turn to Pisarenko. Sorry, Fort 226.


    You look at this miracle of arms thought and you well imagine what it is fashionable to do from the “oldies” of Uzi and Ingram just with the help of fashionable body kits. What is new there? No, really, remove all the tinsel from it and immediately some Micro-Uzi will come up. Yes, and the “cheek” for PP - well, all of it ... Will you knock out your teeth? good
    1. Curious
      Curious April 8 2018 14: 06
      0
      And this "Uzi" is licensed. They are looking for good from good. What else can you think of? "Uzi" - time-tested, reliable. The cheek does not interfere, everything is functional, nothing extra.
      1. beeper
        beeper April 8 2018 21: 31
        +1
        Dear Curious, there are a lot of things hung up and not functional on this “weathered” micro-Uzi smile . IMHO
        1. Curious
          Curious April 8 2018 23: 15
          +1
          Dear Pishchak! The added Picatinny rail and the transfer of the shutter knob to the left side did not affect the functionality. In any case, I did not notice much difference when using the original and “Fort”. And you? What prevented the shooting?
          1. beeper
            beeper April 9 2018 10: 59
            +2
            Dear Curious! Your "ironic sarcasm" and "subtle displacement of meanings" is fully understood and "cast a spell" good !
            Of course, I didn’t ever use it (which I do not regret yes !) Neither the Israeli prototype, nor its "Fort" copy, but you "transparently hinted" at it, such as "not for you to judge" is a masterpiece of Israeli-Ukrainian gunsmiths smile ?!
            By the way, apparently from my previous comments (?), Could there have been a false opinion that I am orthodox against setting Picatinny rail? But this is not so, just for their justified use exactly where it is justified and necessary, but I don’t support the “fashion” of “fixing up” everything and everything (well, perhaps, in commercial toys for all kinds of near-weapon “framers” in order to increase sales yes ).
            The original concept of micro-Uzi (the maximum reduction in size, even to the detriment of combat qualities, to ensure HIDDLE wearing during special operations) in the "fort" clone is distorted beyond recognition by unnecessary "embellishment" and an increase in longitudinal (now also transverse, removal left reload handle! smile ) dimensions!
            It is unlikely that the addition of a fanciful, maximally forward forward, articulated front handle and a long, from the barrel, muzzle compensator, non-folding (judging by the attachment nut visible in the photo, or it’s not a nut, but such a tricky hinge, there’s an instant response, is there a photo with a folded butt?) is by no means an openwork butt (and even with an attached console “cheek”, requiring megaberezhny handling winked ) at least somehow significantly and "functionally" eliminated the organic design flaws of this sub-machine gun? request
            Was such a squalid “sheepskin” worth such a “cosmetic” excuse, after all, judge sensibly, in the dimensions and weight of this “Fort” commercial toy, you could create an order of magnitude better in terms of performance characteristics, and really combat, a machine gun? smile
            I don’t argue that micro-Uzi is quite suitable for firing single shots with two hands, not in the function of a submachine gun, but, “fortified”, with a Picatinny rail and an butt with an adjustable “cheek”, allows you to install any collimators and optical sights (for shooting at 30-50 meters? smile ), although it’s too heavy and large, as for a self-loading pistol with similar combat characteristics at the same battle distances, more “turning” and allowing you to shoot comfortably and freely with one hand ...
            hi
            1. Curious
              Curious April 9 2018 12: 32
              0
              Dear Pishchak! I would be interested to know what real experience in operating firearms in general and PP in particular, you have.
              As for the changes, such as the installation of Picatinny rails, the butt and the transfer of the handle, this is not an idea of ​​Ukrainian gunsmiths. All these changes are implemented in such modifications as Uzi Pro or Uzi Tactical.
              Well, and about the "submachine gun." Obviously your combat experience is clearly richer than that of the specialists of Israel Weapon Industries, who have been producing this "disarmament" since 1984, i.e. more than thirty years. One can see anything decent that would not deserve your positive assessment in these overall dimensions. Well, about the contingent from the special forces of Israel, the USA, Germany, apart from any Indies and Singapores, there is nothing to say. These weapons are generally not understood, therefore, instead of buying something "in the world having no equivalent" they use these Israeli farts.
              1. beeper
                beeper April 9 2018 14: 46
                +3
                Dear Curious! Usually, with such personal questions, it is customary for the asker to tell at first (and what you “tell” there, it is only on your conscience winked ) about yourself beloved smile .
                In principle, I already have some virtual idea of ​​you and your epistolary-polemical manner, as well as of other commentators whose information and opinion are especially interesting to me. He would willingly talk in more detail (it’s common for every person to talk more about his real and imaginary merits than listen to his interlocutor) about his shooting and design experience (after all, you usually ask your counterpart a question like “what did you ...?”) .
                Considering that nothing disappears on the Web and in the future there will even be a civilian specialty of an “Internet archaeologist (and not just special services and“ cyber golden eagles ” good will do it smile ) ", and my life span has already been measured, so I see the point in part to satisfy your and public curiosity wink .
                My combat experience is completely insignificant, so, by trifles and in my youth, mostly just hand-to-hand combat with lightly armed bandyuks, they shot and cut me very little. Well, it’s clear that from such stresses the “roof slides down” and will never fall into place, no matter what they say ... but such “slate” does not at all reflect on mental abilities, although it “expands perception” and faith in developed intuition, "Chuyka" undoubtedly adds yes .
                The Soviet homeland, I think, prepared me well theoretically and practically, I did not regret the material resources and projectile cartridges, by my very modest estimates for those years, my personal shot amounted to about four hundred thousand rounds of all calibres of pistols and revolvers, rifles and machine guns, machine guns and a dozen three shells from a tank gun, something like that, but maybe more than a thousand for 100-200 rounds ... almost all the bullets and absolutely all the shells hit where I aimed them, I always regretted to spend even one pat ... he still remembers my hands all the sensations of the arms and downs-gashetok all my weapons firing, believe it or not, was a marksman and many would be the same smile ...
                Modern submachine guns were not in service at that time, and my father was a soldier who used PPSh a lot, he praised him very much for his stability in automatic firing and, as a competent post-war artillery officer and Constructor from God, he explained to me the boy how this was achieved and how the basics of internal and external ballistics. So since childhood, I did not go past the riflemen and artillery, I was interested in the device and, if possible, tried to attend the shooting, as a result, by old age, this greatly affects my hearing, alas request so always use headphones and earplugs when shooting yes .
                It is unlikely that the combat experience of micro-Uzi manufacturers is richer than mine, but as an experienced production worker I’ll say that if the products under the “world brand” Uzi are enough (even worldwide?) “Advertised” by advertisers and because of this there is a steady demand among framers, makes a profit, then why not produce it for decades, only "cosmetically" decorating with new "tsatskas" - this is the usual capitalist approach yes .
                Apparently, therefore, the task of creating something better for the designers (I have no doubt at all that I have no doubt about the ability to design the proper weapon model with the correct setting of the task, selection and training of personnel, their appropriate motivation and tight control over the implementation! wink ) IWI isn’t even being set up, because it’s such a “pain in the neck” and the cost of creating the entire complex, and then of promoting it on international (miserable at home) arms markets, which is very, very problematic with approximately equal performance characteristics of modern submachine guns - try to promptly suggest to near-arm philistines, even if they uncritically perceive any advertising “suggestion,” a canoe about the “proven reliability time” so that it bounces right from their teeth smile ... you can also lose your niche in the arms market yes ?!
                In my time, the special forces of many countries had greater respect than the unreliable and bulky Uzi for the German NK MP5 and NK MP5K, and now, in your opinion, they use the worthless micro-Uzi by the majority (even Germans?) they have completely degraded, where is the world going? smile ...
                hi
                1. Curious
                  Curious April 9 2018 16: 19
                  +1
                  Yes, the homeland, which the USSR, tried its best in preparing the army, but not everyone was lucky with small arms, many stopped on three cartridges before the oath. I didn’t shoot half a million rounds in a year and a half of service. This is necessary for a thousand every day without days off, which is difficult to achieve. So if you add up everything that the motorized rifle shoots from, it is unlikely that more than 50 will succeed. My acquaintance with artillery is very weak, since the 000 mm "Thunder" BMP 73 can be called a cannon with a big stretch.
                  As for shooting skills, they are not particularly outstanding. I completed the KMS standard in exercises MV-6 and MP-7 at school, then practically abandoned this matter. Probably tired of it, since my father trained shooters in DOSAAF, I also found an ammunition rifle. Starting to shoot in his very childhood, he was obviously shot.
                  But he always had an interest in insole weapons, maybe that's why circumstances allowed me to get acquainted with a fairly large number of different samples, from rare ones and from the time of the Second World War to modern ones.
                  I’m not talking about a smooth-bore, this is a separate issue.
                  I don’t comment on advertising and near-armed inhabitants, as experts from more than a hundred countries using various modifications of Uzi never rely on their opinions, where the opinions of couch experts and advertising do not play any role.
                  Comparison of "Uzi" and NK is not correct. Despite the fact that both PP, it is still a different weapon.
                  Well, about the Great Patriotic War, since you remembered. Grandfather Finnish and Patriotic from call to call. My father did not go to war, but the German fragments received in 1941, when the plant was evacuated, carried his whole life. His brother died in 1941 near Baranavichy.
                  I hope I satisfied your curiosity.
                  By the way, you mentioned the experience of the manufacturer. Means weapons?
                  1. beeper
                    beeper April 9 2018 20: 16
                    +3
                    Dear Curious! It’s clear that such a shot didn’t happen in a year or two, but it’s no longer pulling to have its own weapon (even from the most beloved in the youth-Khaidurovsky revolver TOZ-36 would have refused), although now it’s possible to shoot from any for money " guns!
                    He was in Baranavichy and next to him a nice provincial town near Minsk, with well-preserved remnants of pre-war (and even pre-revolutionary) buildings, friendly people, an interesting railway museum ... in Belarus, people who respect and honor the soldiers who died for our Fatherland are respected and honored the search battalion is looking for their ashes in the places of past battles, but in the Belarusian forests there are many still old trenches and unknown graves, you’ll go mushrooms and will surely stumble upon the memory of the war ...
                    You have very good shooting results (the CCM, probably all the same for the MP-8?) And, believe me, a big shot is not at all a guarantee of excellent results if the psychological preparation of the shooter is lame yes !
                    Sorry generously that I don’t share your “Uzi” of enthusiasm, I’m such a retrograde city, I have a long-standing opinion about this creation of Uziel Gal and his mini and micro clones (I don’t want to go into details of this “story”), I don’t the best view and, alas, I do not know the facts that would shake him request
                    To the opinion of “specialists from more than a hundred countries”, I am rather skeptical, as I am guided by the specifics of the special services and I know quite well the design, history of the creation and “promotion of the markets” of Uzi (and not just this particular weapon, the history of the promotion of any of those that were and are heard, for example, of the same Gaston Glock pistol, may well become material for interesting articles by Authors of VO yes ), as well as its combat use and exploitation by the Israeli army ...
                    As for your extreme question, given the publicity of our communication and holy reverence of the Criminal Code (as O. Bender bequeathed to us yes ), expanded to answer? smile .
                    Unofficial offers, knowing my universal machine-building talents and experience, to arm certain gangsters or to make-repair parts that look like weapons for good money, I received several times in the hungry 90s and early 2000s, but always refused, in principle, although I didn’t "did not understand"... smile .
                    Weapon design and production technologies (both small-scale and mass) have much in common with structurally similar civilian machines and mechanisms (shooting is a fairly primitive, mechanistic, level of weapons, with established concepts for the creation and use. IMHO)
                    If you are well versed in the history of the development of weapons designs and the principles of their construction, fundamental functions and correctly represent the likely field of application, then there is nothing complicated in creating weapon models with acceptable performance characteristics and introducing them into mass production, with the current development of technologies and materials winked
                    Of course, there are specifics and differences in the processes, but this is not some kind of "sacred secret" that is accessible only to the "chosen ones", especially in the general information age, when the Internet plays the role of a sort of ersatz-noosphere.
                    All issues are resolved, there would be a desire and an acceptable level of training. Any more or less sensible production worker with experience (and stable moral standards against bribery and embezzlement smile ), with the right approach and appropriate funding, is able to organize the creation and production of any product and on any scale, of course, if this does not contradict the articles of the Criminal Code and the norms of public morality ...
                    Fell, due to destructive "perestroika" and perturbations, the general level of engineering and working training of youth, and there was no transfer of experience, schools, from senior comrades, yes, sadness, it is very noticeable in my factory ... and dear Mark Poddubny in the Article writes about the same degradation ...
                    Therefore, one has to be content with designs of 60-30 years ago, replicating them with "new" bells and whistles, "pouring new wine into old furs," instead of creating and producing superior samples ... something like that.
                    All the best to you, dear Curious! I hope that, to the best of circumstances, I have dispelled the ambiguities and emphasize that my opinion is just my personal, subjective opinion, it may well be erroneous smile , so I’m always interested in your and our colleagues on the site comments.
                    hi
                    1. Curious
                      Curious April 9 2018 22: 19
                      +1
                      '... probably all the same for the MP-8 "
                      Before the CCM, it was possible to shoot half the MP-8, i.e. MP-7. For MS it was necessary to lay already MP - 8.
      2. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok April 10 2018 20: 12
        +1
        Quote: Curious
        And this "Uzi" is licensed.

        I ask again, where is the genius of Ukrainian gunsmiths in this weapon? Where are your brilliant designs brought to life? Where in the series are really unique pistols made of ftoroplast, where is the PP from the corner?
        1. Curious
          Curious April 11 2018 12: 53
          +1
          What difference does Parasenka make if he penetrates the skull through the ingenious development of an “unmatched world”, or licensed? The main thing is that the skin is on fat.
          1. 4thParasinok
            4thParasinok April 13 2018 00: 19
            0
            Quote: Curious
            What is the difference Parasenku, perform him penetrating the skull

            that's the answer, the whole genius turns out to be simple rudeness and nothing more. Ponte and rudeness ...
            1. AlexMark
              April 23 2018 09: 21
              +1
              The experience of communication with you shows that "Ponte and rudeness" is your strong point.
              1. 4thParasinok
                4thParasinok April 23 2018 15: 30
                0
                Quote: AlexMark
                The experience of communication with you shows that "Ponte and rudeness" is your strong point.

                Oh, the "writer" noted ...
                1. AlexMark
                  April 23 2018 16: 53
                  +2
                  so I did not leave here, I sit for days - I am waiting for your comments, I miss you
  15. beeper
    beeper April 8 2018 22: 49
    +1
    Comrade Mark Poddubny, I admire your patience and perseverance in the comprehensive study and collection of scattered information on the topic of your Article! good
    Also, at one time, I thought about how the advertised function of forced barrel cooling is realized in the Italian Spectra, and then, after many years, in the Goblin ... by the way, a rectangular hole in the receiver, just above the sleeve window ( in the photo, right under your words, that “the receiver is actually deaf and has neither ventilation holes on the side surfaces nor on top.”), apparently, is intended for “cooling air circulation”?
    The first time I saw, briefly shown in the American film "Robocop" (it is laid out and used to shoot the protagonist of the film, an evil little one) and described in more detail in the book of A.B. Zhuk (section "submachine guns") FMG submachine gun company "ARES", a clear prototype of the Soviet PP90 and Ukrainian "Goblin", was conceived as a hidden-carrying weapon, with folded dimensions that could be hidden in a cigarette block, and ready to use immediately after unfolding, this is the whole concept of such a weapon - unexpected sudden prim Chanting, not fussing by type: "Wait until I get ready for shooting, stand and do not disperse!". And, unlike imitations, the FMG met this criterion — it was instantly laid out by a spring (and not manually, like the PP90 and the Goblin!) And at the same time the shutter became operational, all that was left was to aim at the target and pull the trigger! Foldable sights for firing bursts at a distance of up to 50 (500 is a clear typo of ignorant journalists, it was not even worth discussing smile ) meters, in general, a good shooter and to nothing, but a bad one, is unlikely to help wink !
    About the "Elf" it was written that the first bullet makes a dent in the armor plate, and the second, allegedly, falls into it exactly and "pierces" the damaged armor through and through yes as if this sub-station is very stable when shooting in bursts ... but this is not "balanced automation", but a composite shutter, with elements of absorption of recoil energy. It seems that there was some kind of patent scandal related to the unlicensed use of the shutter of AF Baryshev’s system in this “self-gun”, so the epic of the “elven armor” abruptly interrupted, as the activities of the amateur weapon “cooperative” soon began to decline?
    The cycle turned out to be interesting, as always, with original author’s thoughts good , read the first and third parts (until the second until the move came winked , but be sure to read)! I look forward to your next finds, dear Mark Poddubny!
    hi
  16. Catfish
    Catfish April 9 2018 00: 20
    +1
    Quote: Curious
    And this "Uzi" is licensed. They are looking for good from good. What else can you think of? "Uzi" - time-tested, reliable. The cheek does not interfere, everything is functional, nothing extra.


    Good night, Victor.
    And why did the choice fall on Uzi because of the cost of a license, or the cheapness of production? It still amazes me that this Uzik is called "legendary." It is not clear why. Heavy, clumsy, uncomfortable (happened to shoot), firing from the rear whisper, and even through the window to eject the 12-gauge sleeve, you can throw it away. Still, it is interesting to know what guided buying a license. Or again banal "drank" money? Or maybe they were able to improve something based on the license? hi
    1. Curious
      Curious April 9 2018 14: 45
      +1
      Hello, Konstantin! I don’t know which Uzi you tested, but I have Uzi Pro, which the Fort 226 didn’t cause negative impressions about weight, handling and convenience. By the way, this modification is fired at from a front whisper. Regarding the choice of this particular company for cooperation, firstly, a limited number of companies produce weapons of this class with an appropriate reputation and they do not stand in line to offer licenses to Ukraine .. Uzi is used in more than a hundred countries and has been worked out technologically. Therefore, there was no cut here. ny choice in the ratio of "price / quality."
      1. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok April 10 2018 21: 05
        +1
        Quote: Curious
        As for the choice of this particular company for cooperation, firstly, a limited number of companies produce weapons of this class with an appropriate reputation and they do not stand in line to offer licenses to Ukraine

        Duck is only Ukraine to blame, but I am sincerely surprised that Beretta did not sell the license for her old M12, which is better than Micro Uzi.
        By the way, for the special, Uzi has been released since 1954, and not from the 80s.
        1. Curious
          Curious April 11 2018 20: 20
          0
          You have solid erudition for a parasion. However, "Uzi Pro" was discussed, the licensed version of which is "Fort 226". "Uzi Pro", in turn, is a modified Micro Uzi, developed in 1984-1985.
          So work on yourself, Parasion.
          1. 4thParasinok
            4thParasinok April 13 2018 00: 15
            0
            Quote: Curious
            I am. However, "Uzi Pro" was discussed

            however, a cheerful Ukrainian weapon genius is being discussed, and not when the Uzi variations appeared. So the question to whom to work on "myself" remains open ...
            1. Curious
              Curious April 13 2018 23: 01
              0
              It is discussed how much the people understand in firearms. So do not take the topic aside.
  17. Catfish
    Catfish April 10 2018 01: 57
    +2
    Quote: Curious
    Hello, Konstantin! I don’t know which Uzi you tested, but I have Uzi Pro, which the Fort 226 didn’t cause negative impressions about weight, handling and convenience. By the way, this modification is fired at from a front whisper. Regarding the choice of this particular company for cooperation, firstly, a limited number of companies produce weapons of this class with an appropriate reputation and they do not stand in line to offer licenses to Ukraine .. Uzi is used in more than a hundred countries and has been worked out technologically. Therefore, there was no cut here. ny choice in the ratio of "price / quality."


    Good night Victor.
    Thanks for the answer. I approximately assumed the same, basically, obviously, still the price. But you know better. Honestly, to say that I tested the Uzi would be arrogance. In the mid-eighties, on occasion, during a shooting at the All-Russian Research Institute of Sudmexpertiza, he burned only one store in the bullet catcher short and single. What testing is there. But the sensations were not very good, especially since there was nothing to compare. Yes, he didn’t shoot solo from the front. And the model, in my opinion, is the very first, with an ingenious folding butt. I was also surprised by the thickness of the case, almost 4 mm., From which there was an awkward severity.
    Happily and good luck. hi