Military Review

Starodub war

57
The Polish-Lithuanian state, taking into account the internal weakness of Russia in the period of early childhood of the heir to the throne, Ivan Vasilyevich, decided to win back the lands previously lost (Smolensk) from the Russian state.


China town

Princess Elena was noted in a very important case for Moscow. Apparently, it was planned under Vasily III, but was made by his wife. Moscow has grown. The 1521 siege of the year and the threat of an attack in 1532 showed that the fortifications of the Kremlin are small for a capital city. The moat was the only defense of the tenements.

It was decided to build new fortifications. In May, 1534 began digging a moat from the r. Neglinnoy to the Moscow River. Robots mobilized all citizens, with the exception of the nobility, the clergy and officials, they allocated servants. For a month the moat is finished. 16 May 1535, a solemn laying of a stone wall took place, with the first stones laid in the foundation laid by Metropolitan Daniel. The construction of the wall was led by Italian Petrok Maly Fryazin, who built it according to the latest fortification science. The fortifications were designed to house strong artillery. Compared with the Kremlin fortifications, the walls of China-town were lower, but thicker, with platforms designed for gun carriages. The wall, finished in 1538, had a length of 2567 m and 12 towers. Initially, four gates were built, bearing the names: Sretensky (from the beginning of the 17th century they were called Nikolsky), Troitsky, All Saints (from the 17th century - Barbarous) and Kosmodemyansky. As a result, the area of ​​the protected part of the city has tripled.

Strengthening the capital was a matter of very timely. The change of power in Moscow was not ignored by the neighbors. Sweden and Livonia have not yet shown aggressiveness, sent ambassadors and confirmed peace agreements. Kazan Khan Jan-Ali took the oath to the new sovereign. But the leaders of the Nogais began to threaten a campaign against Moscow. They demanded that the young Ivan recognize them as “brothers and sovereigns”, that is, equal to him in dignity, and pay “time-honored commemorations” - a tribute. However, they were answered firmly, allowed only free trade in horses in Russia. Noghai resigned, they were not going to fight, hoping to take arrogance. Confirmed a general alliance against the Crimean horde.

However, the most powerful enemies remained: the Crimean Khan Sahib-Girey and the Polish-Lithuanian King Sigismund. They decided to use, as it seemed to them, a convenient moment: the rule of the woman and the child. The Crimean Tatars demanded huge tribute: half of the grand duke's treasury. At the same time, the Crimean detachments attacked the Ryazan region. However, the detachments of the Crimean predators were defeated on the river Pronya.

Starodub war

The territory of China-town is marked in yellow on the plan of Matthaus Merian. Xnumx

Starodub war

The situation with the Polish-Lithuanian state was more complicated. Elena Glinskaya proposed to Sigismund to make peace on the basis of the truce concluded in 1522 after the previous Russian-Lithuanian war, and which was extended in 1526 and 1532. Smolensk lands for this truce remained for Moscow. The Polish-Lithuanian elite, hoping to win back the lands lost before the Russian state, announced to him in February 1534 of the year an ultimatum demanding a return to the borders of the 1508 of the year. After the ultimatum was rejected, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania began hostilities.

The war began against the backdrop of an internal conspiracy. The younger of the three Belsky brothers, Semyon Fyodorovich, and okolnichy, Ivan Lyatsky, who were supposed to prepare regiments in Serpukhov, kept in touch with Sigismund and, together with their squads and servants, fled to the enemy. Governors of the large regiment Ivan Belsky and Ivan Vorotinsky, the sons of Vorotinsky Michael, Vladimir and Alexander also participated in the plot. Obviously, when the enemy attacked, they had to destroy the front, go to the side of the Lithuanians. The consequences of such a blow could be catastrophic. However, the conspiracy on time revealed. Semyon Belsky and Lyatsky, feeling threatened, ran in time, the others did not have time, they were tied up. Sigismund met the fugitives amiably, gave good estates. They assured the king that things in Russia are bad. Most of the nobility and the people are unhappy with the rule of Helen, the power is weak. Moscow will not withstand the confrontation with Lithuania.

The Lithuanian army was divided into three groups. The first, under the command of the Kiev governor, Andrei Nemirovich and Anatoly Chizh, in August, sailed into Seversk land and captured Radogoshch. The entire Russian garrison with commander Lykov died in battle. At the same time, attempts were made to take Chernigov, Starodub and Pochep, but without success. Under Chernigov, the Russian garrison made a successful night raid and defeated the enemy. The enemy fled, abandoning artillery and carts. The second detachment under the command of the princes I. Vishnevetsky and A. Koversky crossed the border in September and moved to Smolensk, but could not take the city. The Russian garrison, headed by N. V. Obolensky, counterattacked and rejected the enemy. The third detachment under the command of hetman Y. Radziwill remained in Mogilev as a strategic reserve.

Thus, the attempt of a sudden invasion did not lead to success. Hope for the weakness of Russia did not justify itself. After the retreat of the Lithuanians from Smolensk, Sigismund disbanded his army, leaving only a few thousand people to guard the border fortresses.

Meanwhile, Russia organized a counter-offensive. When news of the battles on the western frontiers reached Moscow, the Grand Duke Ivan had to make a serious decision for the first time, albeit symbolically. The Boyar Duma gathered, and Metropolitan Daniel addressed a four-year-old child: “Sovereign! Protect yourself and us. Act - we will pray. Death to a beginner, but in truth God is a helper. ” And the boy said the right word. Russian army launched against the enemy. The main forces came from Smolensk. Mikhail Gorbaty-Shuisky and Nikita Obolensky commanded the troops, and Ivan Telepnev-Obolensky commanded the advanced regiment. The second detachment, under the command of Fyodor Telepnev, advanced from Starodub.

Tactic campaign was thought out well. For the winter, the Polish-Lithuanian gentry went home, and in the event of a threat, hid in fortresses and castles. But the Russian commanders were not going to get involved in a heavy siege. They used the ancient tactics of the steppe warriors, including the Horde. Strong fortresses were not besieged, but bypassed. The troops went light, without artillery and baggage, using other people's resources (provisions, fodder). The enemy lands were ravaged, burned, robbed, as all armies did. But the churches did not touch, the Orthodox prisoners were released. But the inhabitants were hijacked, for the settlement of their own areas - war is war. The campaign was designed to undermine the military and economic power of the enemy. Like, you want to fight, get it. After the first strike, followed by the second - even more powerful (the number of troops reached 60 - 70 thousand soldiers). Three troops marched in early February 1535, from near Smolensk, Opochka and Starodub.

The main forces of the Russian army swept through the environs of Orsha, Borisov, Polotsk, Vitebsk, and entered the Vilna area, frightening the king’s court. Other troops marched around Mozyr, Turov and Mogilev. In late February - early March, Russian troops returned safely to the borders of the Russian state with rich booty. This campaign undermined the economy of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which could not continue the war alone.

It must be remembered that all these were the West Russian lands occupied at one time by Lithuania and Poland. Sooner or later they had to return to the Russian state. But the time has not come yet. Therefore, it is necessary to remember that the name "Lithuanians" (Lithuanian, Polish-Lithuanian troops) is conditional. The overwhelming majority of the “Lithuanians” were Russian and Orthodox. In fact, it was a war between Russians and Russians. But the Russians in Lithuania and Poland were doomed to assimilation, to bind, they were subordinate to the Western control centers. Therefore, the truth was behind Moscow - the center of the unification of all Russian lands and the entire Russian people.



Sigismund hoped not only for the internal weakness of Moscow, but also for the support of the Crimean Khan. But the hopes of the Poles for the Crimeans were not justified at first. Civil strife again began in the Khanate. Sahib-Giray appointed his nephew Islam-Giray, the heir to the throne, the second most important person in the Khanate, transferring him to specific possession of the fortress Ochakov and Perekop. Islam, which was already a khan of the horde, wanted to regain the khan's throne, and intrigued in every way against Sahib. In the summer of 1534, Islam rebelled against Sahib Khan. He repelled the attack of calga and expelled him from the Crimea, but he failed to completely defeat his nephew. Islam strengthened in Perekop, where he proclaimed himself a new khan. He was supported by a part of the Crimean murz. Therefore, Sahib could not support the Sigismund offensive. To work off the money received from Lithuania, he sent a detachment, which together with the Lithuanians attacked the Severshchina. But the khan kept the main part of the army with him, fearing the attack of his nephew. And Islam was looking for an alliance with Moscow, said that he was a friend of Russia and asked for money to wage war.

Meanwhile, at the end of 1534, there were changes in the Moscow government. Unexpectedly, Grand Duchess Mikhail Lvovich Glinsky was arrested. Officially, he was accused of intending to "seize the throne." But we don’t know the true reasons. Perhaps he tried to crush Elena and become a ruler, and for this it was necessary to eliminate Telepnev and push back the Duma boyars who were unhappy with the position of Glinsky. Maybe he just slandered. Glinsky had a great government experience and was a powerful pillar of Helen and Ivan. To eliminate Elena, you first had to remove Michael. As a result, Glinsky went to prison and soon died. Regency Council ceased to exist.

The war continued. In the 1535 campaign of the year, Russian troops again launched an offensive on the northern flank. The troops commanded by Vasily Shuisky, Telepnev again led the advanced regiment. The cavalry ravaged Lithuania. But under the cover of this raid, another army entered the Lithuanian territory from Pskov and on the shore of Lake Sebezhsky laid the Sebezh fortress (Ivangorod-on-Sebezh). The fortress was erected in record time (from June 29 to July 20). Construction work was led by Italian architect Petrok Maly, famous for construction activities in Moscow. The place for the new fortress was chosen on the cape deeply prominent in Lake Sebezhsky, which in itself served as a good defense. The wooden structures of Sebezh were protected from all sides by a well-thought-out system of earthen ramparts and bastions. As a result, the Russian army received an important stronghold for action against the enemy.

Sigismund was also not inactive. He gathered a large army (40 thousand soldiers) and launched an offensive on the southern flank. Moscow considered such an opportunity, and another army was assembled on the Oka River. However, Sigismund and here managed to find a good move. He outbid the Russian "friend" Islam-Giray, and he threw his troops into Ryazan. The regiments of Dmitry Belsky and Mstislavsky had to be directed against the Tatars. Crimeans smashed and discarded. But Sigismund achieved the main thing - the Russian south-western cities were without support. The Polish-Lithuanian army launched an offensive in a southwesterly direction. The troops of the hetmans of Tarnowsky and Ostrozhsky moved towards Gomel. His voivode Obolensky-Shchepin left the fortress without a fight. Then the royal rati went to Starodub.

30 July, the enemy laid siege to the Russian fortress. At that time it was a rather large city, the center of Seversk land. The defense was led by Prince Fedor Ovchina-Obolensky (brother of the Grand Duchess's favorite). Prince Fyodor, his warriors, together with the townspeople, bravely defended themselves. Russian repulsed several assaults. The Lithuanians failed underground, blew up the fortifications, a fire started in the city. The Russian voivode, even in such a desperate situation, led the warriors into a fierce counterattack, trying to break through to the enemy headquarters. But I could not win, the forces were unequal. He was surrounded and crushed. Telepnev and Prince Sitsky were captured, the other governor died. Mad enemies broke into the city and massacred, not giving mercy to anyone. Trying to lock up and fight back in the houses, burned. In Russian Starodub 13 was killed thousands of people. And the warriors, and citizens, and residents of the surrounding villages.





Source: Krom MM Starodubskaya war. 1534-1537. Of stories Russian-Lithuanian relations. - M .: Frontiers XXI, 2008

The enemy moved to Pochep. The garrison there was a small fortification weak. Voivod Sukin himself burned the city, ordering the population to go deep into the country. On the ashes of Starodub and Pochep there was nothing to profit. Losses were serious. Therefore, fearing the approach of the main forces of the Russian army, the Lithuanians retreated from Severshchina. The failure of the offensive and the exhaustion of forces and means forced Sigismund to begin negotiations for peace.

Moscow also wanted peace, since the threat now came not only from Lithuania and the Crimea, but also Kazan. The Crimean Khan Sahib and his nephew Safa-Girey (he was already sitting on the Kazan table), although they were engaged in confrontation with Islam-Giray, did not forget about Kazan. Crimean agents were active there, negotiations were held with opponents of the world with Moscow. And not without success. The anti-Russian party has grown bolder. Kazan set off from previous defeats from Moscow, the death of Vasily III and the Russian-Lithuanian war inspired hopes that their time has come. The conspirators carried out a coup, killed the Kazan Khan Jan-Ali, who was guided by Moscow. Safa-Girey regained the Khan's throne in Kazan and was strengthened with the help of the Crimean troops. He married Syuyumbike, wife of Gian-Ali, daughter of the Nogai biya Yusuf, in order to attract the Nogai to his side. Thus, Moscow again received a threat in the east.

In the meantime, the Lithuanians tried to change the situation for the last time in their favor. 20-thousand a detachment under the command of Andrei Nemirovich and Jan Glebovich 27 in February 1536 laid siege to the fortress of Sebezh. However, the enemy was waited here, the fortress was well fortified, had strong artillery and a garrison led by princes Zasekin and Tushin. All attempts to seize the fortress by storm ended in failure. When this failed, Sebezh was subjected to massive shelling of the Polish-Lithuanian artillery. However, the effectiveness of the shelling, due to the inept actions of the besieging and good earthen fortifications of Sebezh, as well as its advantageous location, was low. In addition, the Russian artillery acted more skillfully, the gunners hit the enemy batteries and the camp, causing confusion and demoralizing the enemy. Finally, the Sebezh garrison chose a convenient moment and counterattacked the Lithuanian troops. Russian warriors acted bravely and decisively, the enemy could not resist the onslaught and ran. Polish-Lithuanian "knighthood" in heavy armor ran across the thin ice of the lake. As a result, the ice beneath them broke, thousands of people found themselves in icy water. Our warriors chopped off those who were trying to get out, shot from squeals and cannons. Those who still managed to get out of the water, frozen in the surrounding forests. The victory was complete. Almost all of the Polish-Lithuanian army died. Russian troops destroyed the color of "knighthood". In Moscow, triumphant trophy guns and banners put up to show the people.

After that, the strategic initiative passed to the Russian side. There were trips under Vitebsk and Lyubech, where the suburbs were burned down, the surroundings were ravaged and a huge full was made. At the same time, the lost cities of Starodub and Pochep were being restored. In addition, the Russian government pursued a successful policy of building fortresses on enemy territory — Velizh and Zavolochye were built after Sebezh. Italian Ruggieri, who visited Russia, wrote that such operations were carried out with "incredible speed." Russian masters examined the terrain, on their territory they were preparing the forest, were fitting, marking. Then the blanks were lowered along the rivers to the right place and “in one instant they were joined”, the fortress houses were covered with earth. The Poles only received news of the start of construction, and the fortress was already standing and there was a strong garrison in it. And the border shifted to the west, Russia slowly, but stubbornly returned its ancestral lands.

However, to achieve a significant victory and the return of the Western Russian lands in this war was still not possible. Russia was connected to the Crimean and Kazan "splinter". It was necessary to solve the problem of the wreckage of the Golden Horde, to get a calm rear in the east, in order to return the West Russian lands. Thus, Lithuanian diplomacy was able to temporarily reconcile the Crimean khans Sahib and Islam, to throw them into Russia. They attacked Belev, but were discarded. Attacks began from the east. Kazan king Safa-Giray called Nogais, gathered detachments of Cheremis (Mari), Bashkir. When they learned about these preparations in Russia, the army was sent to meet the enemy under the command of Gundorov and Zasetsky. But they did not dare to take the battle and retreated. The governors of Nizhny Novgorod also decided not to join the battle. Residents of Balakhna came out into the field, but were defeated.

When news of the invasion in the east reached Moscow, the Grand Duchess and the boyars began to take emergency measures. Gundorov and Zasetsky were removed from their posts and arrested. Under the Nizhny Novgorod sent new governor, Saburova and Karpov. The Kazan horde at that time sold out lava for robbery and capture of prisoners, so it was easily broken. The prisoners were sent to Moscow. They decided to show rigidity. All were executed as rioters who violated the oath. In the meantime, Safa-Girey himself launched an offensive with personal guards, Crimean and Nogai units. Part of the Russian army moved up the Volga, and in the battle between Galicia and Kostroma, Saburov's army was defeated. Safa Giray in January 1537 approached Murom. The defenders of Murom repulsed several storms, detaining the enemy. The bourgeois Cossacks boldly acted, smashed the Kazan rears, destroyed their separate detachments scattered for plunder. At this time, fresh shelves approached from Moscow, and Safa-Girey retreated. Under these conditions, it was impossible to continue the war with Lithuania.

Thus, the defeat at Sebezh and other failures convinced the Lithuanian side of the need to begin negotiations. The Russian government was also interested in the world, due to the increased threat from the Crimean and Kazan Khanates. Negotiations rested on the issue of extradition of prisoners and territorial issues. In Lithuania there were few but more notable Russian captives, whereas in captivity the Russians had much more less noble Lithuanians. After a long debate in 1537, an armistice was concluded, according to which, due to the stubbornness of Lithuania, there was no exchange of prisoners, and the territorial issue was resolved on the actual state of affairs at that time. The Gomel parish, claimed by the Russian state, was ceded to Lithuania, and the fortresses of Sebezh, Velizh and Zavolochye, which were located in the former Lithuanian territories, were officially recognized by the Russian state.
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Articles from this series:
Why did they kill Elena Glinskaya
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  1. Vard
    Vard April 5 2018 05: 58
    +3
    The Poles have always shatted us ... Neither anyone else .. Is that the Englishwoman more ...
    1. Cartalon
      Cartalon April 5 2018 06: 18
      +3
      And where do the Poles?
      1. From Germany
        From Germany April 5 2018 07: 51
        +3
        Sigismund II August - Grand Duke of Lithuania from October 18, 1529, King Polish since February 20, 1530.
        Yes, and right at the beginning Polish-Lithuanian state.

        Cartalon, did you read the text at all?
        1. Varyag77
          Varyag77 April 5 2018 08: 21
          +3
          Yes, he says everything correctly. Do not include political correctness here. She gives us (Russian) a disservice. Directly and in modern interpretation it sounds like this. Belarusians and Ukrainians with the help of the Poles went to Russia to burn, rob and kill. So understandable? Not tolerant truth, but what to do.
          1. 210ox
            210ox April 5 2018 12: 59
            +4
            Already Belarusians were dragged to this? It is a pity that then the defenders were then a colony of Britain. And they would have been blamed ... Although there is some kind of colony there, they just tried to survive there. It’s rightly said, the Russians fought against the Russians, and all this is the machinations of Catholics .
            Quote: Varyag77
            Yes, he says everything correctly. Do not include political correctness here. She gives us (Russian) a disservice. Directly and in modern interpretation it sounds like this. Belarusians and Ukrainians with the help of the Poles went to Russia to burn, rob and kill. So understandable? Not tolerant truth, but what to do.
            1. co-creator
              co-creator April 5 2018 14: 53
              +1
              Quote: 210ox
              Correctly said, the Russians fought against the Russians, and all this is the machinations of Catholics.

              No intrigues. Some of the Russian princes were subjects of the RF and honestly fought according to the oath. Then nationality was secondary.
            2. Varyag77
              Varyag77 April 5 2018 15: 25
              +1
              Why drag them in? Maybe you should open a history book. Yes, see what is ON? Or where? Illiteracy must be eliminated. As your eternal leader bequeathed so to speak
          2. co-creator
            co-creator April 5 2018 14: 50
            +2
            Quote: Varyag77
            Yes, he says everything correctly. Do not include political correctness here.

            Sorry, maybe you do not need to write your Wishlist, but how was it really?
            Quote: Varyag77
            Directly and in modern interpretation it sounds like this.

            Well then, you need to interpret the Roman Empire following your logic. Like Italians created the Italian Empire with the capital in the city of Rome. In the Italian army there were so many legions, etc. Am I writing right? laughing

            Quote: Varyag77
            Belarusians and Ukrainians with the help of the Poles went to Russia to burn, rob and kill. So understandable?

            Well, for starters, then you need to find mentions of Ukrainians and Belarusians in this chronicle, otherwise authors except Russians and Poles see no one else. In fact, it turns out the Russian subjects of the Polish King went to kill the Russian subjects of the Moscow Tsar / Prince. Now everything is clear.
            Quote: Varyag77
            Not tolerant truth, but what to do.

            Is your idol not Bebik by chance?
            1. Varyag77
              Varyag77 April 5 2018 15: 26
              0
              But how was it really? Tell me. Only without hyperboreans of a single mother of Russia and tartaria. Please be so kind
              1. co-creator
                co-creator April 5 2018 17: 32
                +3
                Quote: Varyag77
                But how was it really? Tell me. Only without hyperboreans of a single mother of Russia and tartaria. Please be so kind

                in fact, Ukrainians and Belarusians did not exist in nature.
                But hyperborea and tartaria have nothing to do with this.
        2. Cartalon
          Cartalon April 5 2018 20: 34
          +1
          There was not any Polish Lithuanian state until 1569, there was a personal union with a weak king on bird rights
      2. Weyland
        Weyland April 5 2018 16: 39
        +3
        Quote: Cartalon
        And where do the Poles?

        Poland and Lithuania united in 1569, but the personal union was almost always already from 1385 (i.e., the Polish king was simultaneously the Grand Duke of Lithuania). After the defeats of 1535, Lithuania had to turn to Poland for military assistance, and it was precisely the massacre in Starodub Polish the great crown hetman, Jan Amor Tarnovsky - in all previous wars between Moscow and Lithuania, such atrocities never came to such an extent!
    2. Luga
      Luga April 5 2018 10: 08
      +5
      Quote: Vard
      The Poles have always shatted us ... Neither anyone else .. Is that the Englishwoman more ...

      And who we did not shit? And who we did not shit? And how much did they spoil each other? Do you think the mutual accounts of the British with the Germans or the French, for example, less meaningful? There is a clash of interests - filth begins. The neighbors of such clashes, of course, more, respectively, and they do each other more and more, vast empires like Russia and Britain started doing each other's nasty things when they collided in Central Asia and the Middle East, and then in the Far East. And how many nasty things have Germany, Turkey done to us, is it really less than Poland or Britain? But Spain and Portugal somehow were not particularly noted in the field to spoil Russia. Do you really love and respect Russians? Friends, like, ours? It’s just that these purely regional states are too far away and their interests do not overlap with ours.
      So it is not necessary to define enemies on a national basis. Only by the presence of diverging interests.
      1. co-creator
        co-creator April 5 2018 14: 56
        +1
        Quote: Luga
        So it is not necessary to define enemies on a national basis. Only by the presence of diverging interests.

        Poles Russophobia and while there will be an independent Poland, any Polish government will see Russian enemies. It’s just a medical and historical fact and there’s nothing to do with interests.
  2. parusnik
    parusnik April 5 2018 07: 45
    +5
    to recapture the lands previously lost from the Russian state, announced in February 1534 an ultimatum demanding that it return to the borders of 1508.
    ... An eternal idea ... repeated from century to century before the liquidation of the Commonwealth .. Poland revived, but the ideas are the same wherever a piece is snatched .. and not only in Russia .. The state is always "hungry" and always crying " , ah, naive we, trusting, it is easy to deceive us ...
    1. Cat
      Cat April 5 2018 11: 23
      +3
      How many similar requirements were then .... count not count!
      It's only the beginning!!!
    2. co-creator
      co-creator April 5 2018 14: 57
      +1
      Quote: parusnik
      Forever "hungry" state and always "crying", oh, naive, trusting, we can easily be fooled ...

      Well, the Poles consider themselves imperial people, their behavior is understandable.
      1. Paranoid50
        Paranoid50 April 6 2018 00: 07
        +1
        Quotation: blooded man
        consider themselves imperial people their behavior is understandable.

        Clearly, but completely unacceptable. yes Always talked about this to familiar Poles.
        Mostly agreed. laughing
  3. Curious
    Curious April 5 2018 12: 03
    +3
    In 2012, the author already published this article. "Little-known wars of the Russian state: Russian-Lithuanian (" Starodubskaya ") war of 1534-1537 (https://topwar.ru/15672-maloizvestnye-voyny-russ
    kogo-gosudarstva-russko-litovskaya-starodubskaya-
    voyna-1534-1537-gg.html).
    In terms of limitation, obviously, it is possible to repeat. True, the original version did not meet the "requirements of the moment", so the missing elements were added to give the article an entourage about the "war of non-Russian Russians and Russian Russians" that meets current trends.
  4. Varyag77
    Varyag77 April 5 2018 15: 29
    +2
    Quotation: blooded man
    Well, for starters, you need to find references to Ukrainians and Belarusians in this chronicle

    You do not do garbage and verbiage. I think it’s perfectly clear in what context this is applied. Or am I here on the page to paint all the lands and principalities that were included in the ON? Or remind you that in those days there were no Russians, Ukrainians or Belarusians. Let’s not include kindergarten pants on the straps.
    1. co-creator
      co-creator April 5 2018 17: 24
      0
      Quote: Varyag77
      I think it’s perfectly clear in what context this is applied.

      In which?
      Quote: Varyag77
      Or remind you that in those days there were no Russians, Ukrainians or Belarusians.

      There were no RUSSIANS? But what was the name of the people, for example, living in the Principality of Moscow?
      Quote: Varyag77
      Let’s not include kindergarten pants on the straps.

      Let's.
  5. Weyland
    Weyland April 5 2018 16: 46
    +1
    The Italian Ruggieri, who visited Russia, wrote that such operations were carried out with "incredible speed." Russian masters inspected the area, prepared wood on their territory, carried out fitting, marking. Then the blanks were lowered along the rivers to the right place and “connected in an instant”, the ramparts were covered with earth. The Poles only received news of the start of construction, and the fortress is already standing and there is a strong garrison in it.

    But from this place I would like to know more! I was sure that such a technology first appeared 15 years later - during the construction of Sviyazhsk, when in May 1551 the fortress was assembled in 4 weeks from parts procured in the Uglich area and fused along the Volga.
    Velizh and Zavolochye were also built in 1536 at an accelerated pace (Velizh in just 3 months) - but I have never met any information about the use of Sviyazh technology!
    1. lesnik1978
      lesnik1978 April 5 2018 22: 53
      0
      Prince Danilo Galitsky used this.
  6. Varyag77
    Varyag77 April 5 2018 20: 51
    +3
    Quotation: blooded man
    In which?

    Pretending to be?
    Quotation: blooded man
    There were no RUSSIANS? But what was the name of the people, for example, living in the Principality of Moscow?

    There were Muscovites, Novgorodians, Pskovs, etc. The period of the formation of the nation as "Russian" at the very beginning, and the path is still long.
    Quotation: blooded man
    Let's.

    Don’t turn it on. And finally study at least superficially the history of ancient Russia, the Kiev lands and the great Lithuanian princedom. In order to at least understand what kind of regions-cities-peoples (in that sense) we are talking about.
    At least at the level of "read the school textbook." Then your surprise and bewilderment will fall off by itself.
    And if even some figures are put aside in my head in order to understand what kind of "temporary periods of existence of the lands under discussion in one form or another" are in question, then it will be fine in general.
    1. co-creator
      co-creator April 5 2018 23: 45
      +1
      Quote: Varyag77
      Pretending to be?

      No . So in what way.
      Quote: Varyag77
      There were Muscovites, Novgorodians, Pskovs, etc. The period of the formation of the nation as "Russian" at the very beginning, and the path is still long.

      We take the annals and read the name of the people who lived in Moscow, Novgorod, etc.
      We take annals, orders, decrees, letters and look at what name the elite called themselves and how they called the land on which they lived.
      We take the same thing from the neighbors and see how they called the population living in Moscow, Kiev, etc.
      Oh miracle, everywhere RUSSIAN. The people are formed with the advent of the aristocracy, and the destruction of the communal-tribal system.

      Quote: Varyag77
      Don’t turn it on. And finally study at least superficially the history of ancient Russia, the Kiev lands and the great Lithuanian princedom. In order to at least understand what kind of regions-cities-peoples (in that sense) we are talking about.

      Judging by your RUSSIAN was not to study the history you need. For starters, what was the full name of the ON.
      Quote: Varyag77
      At least at the level of "read the school textbook." Then your surprise and bewilderment will fall off by itself.

      Which country textbook? Russian Empire, Soviet, Russian, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Polish? What story did you study?
      Quote: Varyag77
      And if even some figures are put aside in my head in order to understand what kind of "temporary periods of existence of the lands under discussion in one form or another" are in question, then it will be fine in general.

      You do not happen to be in the sect at Luga and Shpakovsky? A lot of bukfff, but essentially nothing. We discuss the native time that is indicated in this article, and "time periods". If you want to discuss something else, you will specify what exactly we will discuss.
  7. Operator
    Operator April 5 2018 20: 56
    +2
    Quote: Varyag77
    in those days there were no Russians, Ukrainians or Belarusians

    Strange - there were no Russians, but Ruska (not Ukrainian, not Belarusian) Earth "in those days" was.

    Do not dishonor the tricolor, change to your Israeli.
  8. Varyag77
    Varyag77 April 5 2018 20: 57
    +2
    Quotation: blooded man
    But hyperborea and tartaria have nothing to do with this.

    These mysterious representatives are related only to an alternative story and nothing more.
    I just cautioned against the possible translation of the issue discussed under the "official history" into the "alternative"
    1. co-creator
      co-creator April 5 2018 23: 49
      +1
      Quote: Varyag77
      I just cautioned against the possible translation of the issue discussed under the "official history" into the "alternative"

      The fact that you proposed to operate historical events using modern names of peoples makes it an alternative. You somehow do not confuse the shores yourself.
      1. Varyag77
        Varyag77 April 6 2018 07: 26
        +2
        Be adequate. I have absolutely no interest in rewriting the names of all cities, villages and farms. It’s much easier to put it all in one word. If this is not clear to you, then trouble is trouble. This is called "I have nothing to object" to get to the shoelaces. Everyone understands, you do not understand. The discussion should be conducted more competently. Is there anything to argue on the merits? welcome. And so ... not hunting ... excuse me.
        1. co-creator
          co-creator April 6 2018 20: 12
          +1
          What can I object to the person who in the 16th century found Ukrainians and Belarusians) Do you even read Wikipedia at least sometimes.
  9. Varyag77
    Varyag77 April 5 2018 21: 01
    +3
    Quote: Operator
    Do not dishonor the tricolor, change to your Israeli.

    But Shaw Yaroslavl is it still the promised land? Oh, wei.
    You have a sedative drink and read again thoughtfully what I am writing about.
    In the 16th century, no Belarusians, Ukrainians, or Russians as nations existed in nature. Able to understand this simple thought? Just like nations in the meaning that we mean now.
    1. co-creator
      co-creator April 5 2018 23: 52
      0
      Quote: Varyag77
      In the 16th century, no Belarusians, Ukrainians, or Russians as nations existed in nature. Able to understand this simple thought? Just like nations in the meaning that we mean now.

      Well then continue your logical and thought and write - in the 16th century, no states existed exactly as states in the modern sense. So incomprehensible bandit formations.
      1. Varyag77
        Varyag77 April 6 2018 07: 10
        +2
        You do not rush to extremes. Who is talking about gang formations? The thing is that in those days each of the trinity had its own path, its own interests and its own history. And this same "brotherly" trinity was robust so drank each other's blood. in the period of the USSR we were imposed "brotherhood" "one people" a common history, etc., etc. To put it mildly, this is not entirely true. Both Belarus and Ukraine (lands and peoples) lived much longer separately from Russia than as part of it. With all the consequences.
        1. co-creator
          co-creator April 6 2018 20: 29
          +1
          Quote: Varyag77
          The thing is that in those days each of the trinity had its own path, its own interests and its own history. And this same "brotherly" trinity was robust so drank each other's blood.

          What fraternal trinity amiable? You really went off the roof or something. All Rurikovich were Russian and owned a people with one language, one culture, one religion that was called Russian. Many princes freely left the GDL to Moscow with their lands and peoples, so did you change your nationality?
          About interests in general laughed heartily. What could be the interests of “Ukrainians” and “Belarusians” if such countries did not exist in nature. At that time, people and princes were not CITIZENS, but subjects of their overlords. There were three branches - Piast, Gedeminovichi and Rurikovich. Piasts ruled Poland, Gedeminovichi ON, Rurikovich Rus. Rurikovich rightly considered all Russia as their land and the people of Russian. All inhabitants of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania were called LITHUANIAN PEOPLE (THIS is what Russians call Russians Russian) by the name of the principality. As soon as these Russian lands passed under Moscow, for example, Smolensk, then the local people served the princes of Moscow just as honestly. So all Russians fought against the Russians for the same reasons why the Germans fought against the Germans at the same time.
          Quote: Varyag77
          Both Belarus and Ukraine (lands and peoples) lived much longer separately from Russia than as part of it. With all the consequences.

          Well this is a lie, just count)
          1. Operator
            Operator April 6 2018 20: 45
            0
            For some reason, no one is sad about the Germans and Italians, overcoming the feudal fragmentation of their countries only in the second half of the 19th century, and none of them makes a tragedy from the existence of the Bavarians, Prussians, Saxons, Schleswig-Holstein, Lombardians, Savoyans, Venetians, Sardinians in the past etc.

            So, everything is still ahead of us - that is, consolidation within the framework of a single Russian state of the Great Russians, Little Russians and Belarusians bully
    2. Operator
      Operator April 6 2018 00: 29
      0
      Quote: Varyag77
      In the 16 century, no Belarusians, Ukrainians and Russians as nations existed in nature

      To get started, study the source - “The Word of Igor's Campaign” and try to find there anything other than Ruska Zemlya. And do not confuse the entire period of the existence of our country with a period of feudal fragmentation, when the Russians identified themselves also in the context of principalities.

      Russia is the name of the West Slavic tribe of Rurik, which created the state of the Eastern Slavs under the title of its state-forming tribe with the capital first in Novgorod and then in Kiev. Those. Russian Land / Russia / Russia and Rus / Rusich // Russians exist from the 9 century A.D.

      If you believe the Jewish version of the history of our country, set out in school textbooks of the USSR period under the editorship of historians who do not belong to the state-forming nation, then this is purely your problem.
      1. Varyag77
        Varyag77 April 6 2018 07: 14
        +1
        Ahh .. The wish not to mention tartaria should have been addressed to you .. understandably.
        By the way did not know that Karamzin,. Soloviev and Klyuchevsky Jews. And about Bayer, Miller, and who is the third one, he forgot. I’m generally silent. Their Teutonic ancestors turned over in your grave from your words.
        Something you all pulls on the Jews. I, too, are not a fan of the chosen ones, but not to the same extent.
        1. Operator
          Operator April 6 2018 08: 30
          0
          That you all refer to secondary sources of shaggy years of release - to read karamzin and buyers is how to eat "baby food" products laughing
    3. Gopnik
      Gopnik April 6 2018 13: 50
      0
      About "as a nation" you just wrote. As an ethnic group, Russians then already existed, and existed for a long time. Belarusians and Ukrainians were not, yes.
  10. Tankist_1980
    Tankist_1980 April 5 2018 23: 20
    0
    I'm from Starodub)))
  11. Varyag77
    Varyag77 April 6 2018 07: 53
    +1
    Quotation: blooded man
    We take the annals and read the name of the people who lived in Moscow, Novgorod, etc.
    We take annals, orders, decrees, letters and look at what name the elite called themselves and how they called the land on which they lived.
    We take the same thing from the neighbors and see how they called the population living in Moscow, Kiev, etc.
    Oh miracle, everywhere RUSSIAN. The people are formed with the advent of the aristocracy, and the destruction of the communal-tribal system.

    Is it necessary to explain that, for example, the Russians-Novgorodians were some Russians, and the Russians Muscovites were other Russians? And the Novgorodians themselves did not consider themselves Muscovites as brothers. This is an example to you.
    I repeat, Russia as a united nation of Russians is not yet. The process is ongoing, but far from complete. And the sign of “whose will you be” in those days was not “so Russian I am”, but “I am Novgorodian”, “I am Vladimir”, etc. that there is water pouring.
    Quotation: blooded man
    For starters, what was the full name of the ON.

    Judging by your posts, I know much more about ON than you. Otherwise, you would not be so excited about what I wrote, because I wrote the pure truth.
    But for you, I can also chew, which you won’t do for the sake of the possibility of enlightening the lost. When we talk about any wars with the ON,. When Olgerd brought his regiments to Moscow, when Jagiello led his army to join Mamaia, all our subsequent wars with the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and later with Poland, we should clearly understand that we did not fight with the armor, ests and other Zemaitians, although they certainly also were. We fought with the people of Kiev, Chernihiv, the inhabitants of Polotsk, Turovtsy, Vilchans and so on. We didn’t fight with the “Lithuanians” who were intentionally laid out during the period of the USSR and eternal friendship. we just fought with Belarusians and Ukrainians for both Belarus (as a whole) and Ukraine (almost all) —that was ON. And it turns out a very interesting picture. Is not it?
    Quotation: blooded man
    You do not happen to be in the sect at Luga and Shpakovsky? A lot of bukfff, but essentially nothing. We discuss the native time that is indicated in this article, and "time periods". If you want to discuss something else, you will specify what exactly we will discuss.

    No. I am not in their sect. As for the discussion, I do not think that this is possible with you. For it’s hard to talk with a person who has read the letters, and even put them into a word, but who do not understand the meaning.
    Learn to look at historical events without any ideology, sifting out the husk that they think of for you. just operate on the facts. and then you will understand much more.
    The wars of Russia with the ON, by the way, are an excellent example of discoloration and blinding in Soviet historiography of one indisputable fact. Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians did not behave quite “brotherly” and for hundreds of years they gladly slaughtered each other. If we add to this even the most powerful onslaught of Western civilization on the lands of Belarus and Ukraine, and as a consequence, the arrival and penetration of a new culture, customs, even the change of the Orthodox faith into Catholicism, I am not surprised at what is happening now with our neighbors. And believe me, if something happens to Lukashenko and another president comes, then we can see the metamorphoses of the transformation of "fraternal Belarus" into the western country of Belarus. And these five will be a great surprise on the part of the Russian people. And there should be no surprise. Who knows the story, that such a turn of events will not surprise.
    1. Gopnik
      Gopnik April 6 2018 13: 55
      0
      Quote: Varyag77
      Is it necessary to explain that, for example, the Russians-Novgorodians were some Russians, and the Russians Muscovites were other Russians?


      Yes, please explain. Why others?

      Quote: Varyag77
      And Novgorodians themselves did not consider themselves Muscovites brothers


      What does this mean ???

      Quote: Varyag77
      And the sign of “whose will you be” in those days was not “so Russian I am”, but “I am Novgorodian”, “I am Vladimir”, etc. that there is water pouring.


      These are your fantasies.
      1. Varyag77
        Varyag77 April 6 2018 14: 32
        0
        No fantasies. At this time, Russia-Russia was not yet a rigid centralized state. Some principalities had only just become part of Moscow, and Novgorod and Pskov were essentially in themselves. And talking about a single state as such is still premature. Now, when Ivan the Terrible will do what he does, then it will be possible to talk about the beginning of Russia as a state in its modern sense, although I admit that this is too early.
        Only after the time of troubles, after the rise of the people to the struggle, and just the same on this basis of unification and cities and self-awareness, in my opinion, was the Russian nation born.
        But even if my opinion is not taken into account, then the Novgorodian of that time was by no means a brother to the Muscovite. and the facts are darkness. You read for horizons and I think you will understand.
        1. Gopnik
          Gopnik April 6 2018 14: 45
          0
          You are simply not in the subject. A single state was, albeit with varying degrees of relationship between the individual parts. In the 16th century, Novgorod and Pskov were not at all "on their own."

          Quote: Varyag77
          then the Novgorodian of that time wasn’t a brother to a Muscovite


          Brother, because both that and that - Orthodox and Russian, with the common sovereign.
          1. Varyag77
            Varyag77 April 6 2018 15: 57
            0
            YES do not wishful thinking. Then Grozny went to pacify Novgorod.
            You and the Ukrainians must have a brother and a Belarusian, and God forbid, the Bulgarian walks with his brothers. That's your business. About the eyes, dew and something else I do not even want to remind.
            Amuse people who are so stubborn in their ignorance, when both history and life itself say otherwise.
            1. Gopnik
              Gopnik April 6 2018 16: 05
              0
              Novgorod did not have to pacify, because he didn’t buzz. What happened in Grozny’s head is another matter.
              You just have zero knowledge, hence all your fantasies
              1. Varyag77
                Varyag77 April 6 2018 20: 38
                0
                Are you from an alternate universe broadcasting? Gopnik is a vocation or the meaning of life? Knowledge seems to have zero for you. and not even zero, but in general there is simply empty space in the head. You first read at least one book, and then tell. And about the "not buzzing Novgorod" and other things that you have written in books about fellow soldiers there.
                1. Gopnik
                  Gopnik April 6 2018 22: 21
                  0
                  Everything is clear with you. You do not have any knowledge at all, and you are trying to replace the lack of it with snappy verbal diarrhea.
                  Let us, expert, tell us how, in the 16th century, Novgorod and Pskov were “on their own” and how Novgorod was bustling during the time of Ivan the Terrible, answer for the words, idle breach.
    2. co-creator
      co-creator April 6 2018 20: 49
      +1
      Quote: Varyag77
      Is it necessary to explain that, for example, the Russians-Novgorodians were some Russians, and the Russians Muscovites were other Russians? And the Novgorodians themselves did not consider themselves Muscovites as brothers. This is an example to you.

      This is how it can be different Russian? Some of them had a boast, but others didn’t?
      I’ll tell you a secret in Novgorod, even today Muscovites are not considered brothers. There is such a concept as ZEMLYAK, so a Muscovite is not a fellow countryman for a Novgorodian.
      Quote: Varyag77
      Judging by your posts, I know much more about ON than you. Otherwise, you would not be so excited about what I wrote, because I wrote the pure truth.

      So far, only you are excited here, and the truth is not even close to you.
      Quote: Varyag77
      When we talk about any wars with the ON,. When Olgerd brought his regiments to Moscow, when Jagiello led his army to join Mamaia, all our subsequent wars with the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and later with Poland, we should clearly understand that we did not fight with the armor, ests and other Zemaitians, although they certainly also were. We fought with the people of Kiev, Chernihiv, the inhabitants of Polotsk, Turovtsy, Vilchans and so on.

      You have not made any discovery here. The Grand Duchy of Lithuania also claimed to unite all of Russia under its authority, just as Tverichi, for example, slaughtered Muscovites, and his brothers and uncles Rurikovich fought among themselves.
      Moreover, the Germans (Prussians, Bavarians, etc.), for example, fought among themselves already in the 19th century, and then what?
      Quote: Varyag77
      We didn’t fight with the “Lithuanians” who were intentionally laid out during the period of the USSR and eternal friendship. we just fought with Belarusians and Ukrainians for both Belarus (as a whole) and Ukraine (almost all) —that was ON. And it turns out a very interesting picture. Is not it?

      As soon as you find at least one mention that in the 16th century Moscow fought with Belarusians and Ukrainians, immediately contact. Spanking that you rave and with what apparently thoroughly.
      Then Moscow people fought with Lithuanian people, it’s written exactly in the annals. So 80% of Muscovites and Lithuanians were Russians, this is a historical fact.
      Quote: Varyag77
      No. I am not in their sect.

      You would not have been taken, I got excited.
      Quote: Varyag77
      As for the discussion, I do not think that this is possible with you. For it’s hard to talk with a person who has read the letters, and even put them into a word, but who do not understand the meaning.

      Well, it's hard for you to talk to me when I demand evidence from you about Ukrainians, but you don’t have any)
      Quote: Varyag77
      Learn to look at historical events without any ideology, sifting out the husk that they think of for you. just operate on the facts. and then you will understand much more.

      I operate only with facts. Facts are chronicles and records of that time.
      Quote: Varyag77
      Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians did not behave quite “brotherly” and for hundreds of years they gladly slaughtered each other.

      Bullshit, Ukrainians and Belarusians as a nation appeared only in the early 20th century, and finally took shape by the middle of the 20th century.
      The fact that the Russians cut each other and no one disputes, it was with all nations.
      Quote: Varyag77
      If we add to this even the most powerful onslaught of Western civilization on the lands of Belarus and Ukraine, and as a consequence, the arrival and penetration of a new culture, customs, even the change of the Orthodox faith into Catholicism, I am not surprised at what is happening now with our neighbors.

      She is such an advocacy. Most recently, about 20 years ago in the Russian Federation, if a Russian called himself Russian, then he was recorded in the Nazis. The Russians were simply ashamed of their nationality, but propaganda has changed and now Russian is already a patriot.
      Quote: Varyag77
      And believe me, if something happens to Lukashenko and another president comes, then we can see the metamorphoses of the transformation of "fraternal Belarus" into the western country of Belarus.

      Of course it could be.
      Quote: Varyag77
      And there should be no surprise. Who knows the story, that such a turn of events will not surprise.

      Well, when do Russians living in Russia hate Russians and Russia does it surprise you or not? If they come to power, what will happen?
  12. DesToeR
    DesToeR April 6 2018 10: 23
    +1
    It must be remembered that all these were West Russian lands, once occupied by Lithuania and Poland. Sooner or later, they were to return to the Russian state.

    What is the "smoke" author?
    Therefore, it must be remembered that the name “Lithuanians” (Lithuanian, Polish-Lithuanian troops) is conditional. The vast majority of “Lithuanians” were Russian and Orthodox.

    Orthodox - yes, Russian and Lithuanians - no.
    Therefore, the truth was beyond Moscow - the center of the unification of all Russian lands and the entire Russian people.

    There were several centers for the unification of all Russian lands. Moscow is the winner in this process, which is why the “truth” is behind it.
    1. Gopnik
      Gopnik April 6 2018 14: 03
      +1
      Quote: DesToeR
      What is the "smoke" author?


      And what is wrong?

      Quote: DesToeR
      Orthodox - yes, Russian and Lithuanians - no.


      Russians - yes. Or, if you like, Russian, Rusyns.
    2. co-creator
      co-creator April 6 2018 22: 18
      +1
      Quote: DesToeR
      It must be remembered that all these were West Russian lands, once occupied by Lithuania and Poland. Sooner or later, they were to return to the Russian state.
      What is the "smoke" author?

      The author says the true truth, the Russian lands should again be in the Russian state and it does not matter where the capital would be.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Orthodox - yes, Russian and Lithuanians - no.

      And who were they if not Russian? Really Litvinov laughing
      Quote: DesToeR
      There were several centers for the unification of all Russian lands. Moscow is the winner in this process, which is why the “truth” is behind it.

      The truth is always one, and in the 16th center of the unification of Russian lands was only Moscow.
  13. Varyag77
    Varyag77 April 6 2018 14: 23
    0
    Quote: Operator
    That you all refer to secondary sources of shaggy years of release - to read karamzin and buyers is how to eat "baby food" products laughing

    Then I urgently ask for a natural product. Urgently. I’m even interested in who here has such an unshakable authority in Russian history.
  14. Varyag77
    Varyag77 April 6 2018 22: 00
    0
    Quotation: blooded man
    As soon as you find at least one mention, that in the 16th century Moscow fought with Belarusians and Ukrainians, immediately contact. Spanking that you rave and with what apparently thoroughly.

    As I understand it, I’m looking from a discharge into a book and I see a fig. You breed demagogy here and nothing more. Refute the FACTS that did not fight with them? Are there facts, or is there just one veiled under "authoritative opinion"? FACTS? I brought you. Where are you going? What are you doing here circus. ON is Ukraine and Belarus. All point. This is not my Wishlist, and certainly not yours. IT IS A FACT. that in the Middle Ages the name was different, does not change the content. So either operate on facts (which you do not have and will not have) or stop carrying nonsense and practice verbiage.
    1. co-creator
      co-creator April 6 2018 22: 27
      +1
      Quote: Varyag77
      As I understand it, I’m looking from a discharge into a book and I see a fig. You breed demagogy here and nothing more. Refute the FACTS that did not fight with them? Are there facts, or is there just one veiled under "authoritative opinion"? FACTS? I brought you.

      What facts do you need? You take any text, I repeat any Russian, Polish, Hungarian annals and everywhere only Russian. Are you sick and don’t see the difference between the words RUSSIAN and UKRAINIAN?
      What facts did you bring?
      Quote: Varyag77
      ON is Ukraine and Belarus. All point. This is not my Wishlist, and certainly not yours. IT IS A FACT. that in the Middle Ages the name was different, does not change the content.

      For whom is the fact? Tell the name of the chronicle or the author of a contemporary, can the Gedeminovich quote about it?
      You understand that your words are the same as - the Roman Empire is Italy, because today the state of Italy is on the Apennine Peninsula. Excuse me, just mow under a stupid person, or what?
      Quote: Varyag77
      that in the Middle Ages the name was different, does not change the content. So either operate on facts (which you do not have and will not have) or stop carrying nonsense and practice verbiage.

      Mdya ... you really du..rak.
    2. Gopnik
      Gopnik April 6 2018 22: 30
      +2
      While here only you carry nonsense, practicing verbiage. ON is ON. And Russia could not fight in the 16th century with Belarusians and Ukrainians, due to the absence of these at that time. And besides present Belarus and part of present Ukraine, part of present Russia and present Lithuania also entered there.
  15. Varyag77
    Varyag77 April 7 2018 09: 08
    0
    Quote: Gopnik
    While here only you carry nonsense, practicing verbiage. ON is ON. And Russia could not fight in the 16th century with Belarusians and Ukrainians, due to the absence of these at that time. And besides present Belarus and part of present Ukraine, part of present Russia and present Lithuania also entered there.

    Hmm .. hard in the village without a gun. about part of Russia and Lithuania. no one argues that way. And about the lack of "these" you really rave. Like a conspirator. He’s probably a consort of you.
    I was told "speaking in modern" language.
    Well, now for those who are in an armored train. If you deny that the ON is the current Ukraine and Belarus, and accordingly, the ancestors of the ON included the ancestors of those whom we now call Ukrainians and Belarusians, then please be so kind as not to attribute the history of the Moscow Principality to yourself, for you live in the Russian Federation and the history of Russia to it has nothing to do with you. Then I take my leave because there is no desire to argue with two alternatively gifted.
    And yes. Before you meddle with a smart look in the discussion of serious issues, tighten your education to begin with. And the feeling that I’m talking with Vaska as a trashman who just yesterday read some book and on this basis decided that he is smart beyond his years.
    Your nonsense is so worthless that if you had a live discussion, then after a couple of your phrases, people would get up and leave.