Military Review

Rehabilitated posthumously. Interrupted flight of Pavel Grokhovsky (part 2)

108
I would be in the sky ...


While there were experiments with parachutes, Grokhovsky began work on a new project, however, also associated with the landing. Pavel Ignatievich invented special cradles that could be hung under the wings of airplanes. The people of this invention immediately dubbed the "coffins." By and large, the device really was a coffin, which Pavel Ignatievich called the “automatic ejector of the Red Army men”. In the cradle went soldier with a parachute. And when the plane (twin-engine bomber TB-1) reached the desired point, the pilot turned the handle (as if dropping bombs). And in a moment the “coffins” turned over, and the Red Armymen fell out of them. In this case, the parachute opened automatically, thanks to a special exhaust cord.

Rehabilitated posthumously. Interrupted flight of Pavel Grokhovsky (part 2)


Full tests, as well as the subsequent use of "coffins" were to be held in an airborne mechanized unit, which was formed thanks to the efforts of Mikhail Nikolaevich Tukhachevsky. And it was located in the Leningrad Military District.

Of course, Grokhovsky had many opponents and enviers. And all this fraternity believed that the “automatic ejectors of the Red Army” were a perilous undertaking that would bring nothing but the victims. Some of them were not limited to shaking the air, but began to write reports on Grokhovsky to the new Chief of the Air Force, Yakov Ivanovich Alksnis. He, I must give him his due, did not begin to chop off his shoulder, but decided to sort things out. Pavel Ignatievich, together with the engineer Nikolai Efremov, were the first to experience the work of tilting "coffins" and the system of automatic opening of parachutes. Since everything went well, after only a few hours, eleven people had already landed from the cradles attached under the wings of the TB-1. Another interesting thing: all these paratroopers were employees of Oskonbyuro Grokhovsky. Even the draftswoman Lidia Kuleshov was not afraid to take the jump. And soon the experiment was repeated by the next group. It was already the wife of Grokhovsky. So, both Lydia became the first female parachutists of the USSR.

Here is what Lidia Alekseevna recalled about this invention of her husband: “I thought with horror about those unfortunates who would have to lie down in the cradles, and did not know that in a year I myself would take part in the landing of the first parachute assault from these“ coffins ”, like their jest called ".
And these are her memories of a significant event that took place on the fourteenth of July 1931: “We began to fit into the cradles. Under my head - a parachute, like a stiff pillow. Above me is the wing of the TB-1 bomber. Motors roared. A whirlwind swept over the cradle. It was my first flight, and everything entertained me. Here they left the ground, the neighboring buildings flickered. One circle, the other - higher and higher. I stuck my head between the side of the cradle and the wing of the plane and looked at the ground with interest. From the next cradle, they shook me with their fists: take away, they say, head, tear off when overturning! Feeling - terribly sweet. Rather, she pulled her head and in the same second found herself in the air. I did not even notice how the parachute opened ... "

Several test "emissions" were successful. But, unfortunately, we could not manage without victims. During the exercises, which were held in Gatchina near Leningrad, political commissar Kuznetsov was killed. But still, the main reason for the refusal of the introduction of the “automatic ejector of the Red Army” in the USSR Air Force was not this. The main role was played by the soldiers who felt like the living dead, while in the "coffins". Grokhovsky treated this with understanding, and the project was soon officially closed. However, Pavel Ignatievich, of course, did not reject the idea of ​​developing landing forces. And he proposed a new project. This time, the designer came up with gliders towed by airplanes. As conceived by the creator, they were supposed to house the soldiers.

Speaking of Oskonbyuro Air Force Red Army. When Tukhachevsky was appointed deputy chairman of the Revolutionary Military Council of the Republic for armaments, he became acquainted with the “work” of Grokhovsky Design Bureau. What he saw impressed him, so he approved the regulation on the creation of a Special Design and Production Bureau. And of course, Pavel Ignatievich was appointed his chief and chief designer.

In the list of works Grokhovsky there is an interesting airborne vehicle, which was called the "airbus". It was a passenger vehicle with two wheels in front and stops - “crutches” - at the back. These stops had sharp tips that stuck into the ground. Also in the back of the "airbus" was the tail. The passenger compartment was divided into several parts, in which there were paratroopers (in a supine position, by the way). Another interesting thing: this machine, according to Grokhovsky, was intended for the parachute-free landing of soldiers, ammunition sets and supplies. It was attached between the aircraft’s landing gear and dropped at a height not exceeding twelve meters.

Trial tests "Airbus" were successful. And from a low altitude, on a low-level flight, the plane dropped not only weapon or some items, but also dogs. After Grokhovsky was satisfied with the result, it was time to test his invention in humans. Not wanting to risk his subordinates, Pavel Ignatievich climbed into the “airbus” himself. True, he didn’t succeed in testing alone - Ivan Titov made him company.

Fortune and this time was on the side of a bold designer. After several experiments, Grokhovsky decided that the landing vehicle should also be "plowed". And while this process was going on, Pavel Ignatievich took up another important problem - the dropping of heavy loads. The fact is that for this it was necessary to use a parachute with a diameter of sixty meters. A few test dropping technology ended prosaically, even such a large parachute could not withstand the load and burst. Not improved the situation and the increase in its size. Grokhovsky understood that the dome corny does not withstand a dynamic load jerk. Therefore, the designer decided - it is necessary to get rid of the jerk. Thinking, he proposed the original method - first of all, to release a parachute, and to land a heavy load on the opened dome. Grokhovsky himself called this solution to the problem "the method of breakdown."

But the bureaucratic machine did not allow him to conduct the tests. He tried for a long time to get permission from Alksnis and, finally, began to act without a green light from the authorities. The tests were successful, as Grokhovsky reported to Yakov Ivanovich Alksnis, commander of the Air Force. This is how Kazakov described the conversation in his story: “Grokhovsky immediately contacted the Air Force directorate by telephone and, standing at attention, reported:

- The reset of the “object forty four” today at fourteen twenty one was completed successfully. He flew Anisimov. Reports Grokhovsky.
Alksnis, a sample of exposure and correctness, lost his temper. Even Urlapov, standing not far from Grokhovsky, heard his angry voice rumbling in the receiver.

- But how dare you go on this, without an order? What did you expect, Grokhovsky? You thought the winners are not judged? Judged! Judged, to others it was not known! - shouted the head of the Air Force.

- Comrade Alksnis, understand me! I could not wait for your ban! I tried this method at other sites and was confident of success. And in case of failure, one would answer. If I had not decided on this, the landing would have been left without heavy weapons! - justified Grokhovsky.
The conversation was long and tense, but in the end Alksnis relented and ordered everything to be stated in an explanatory note, to present the act with the results of the experiment on the whole form.

In the evening, Alksnis reported to Mikhail Nikolayevich Tukhachevsky about an unauthorized experiment.

- What's again?

- Again .. - spread his hands the head of the Air Force.

- Yakov Ivanovich! You're a big boss. Try not to press Grokhovsky ... We have two ways out: to abandon his ideas or to discard, in relation to him, the existing norms. Now there is no more useful person than Grokhovsky for the construction of the Airborne Forces. Hurry it up, pushing because we are with you. And demanding initiative from people, we, leaders, in difficult moments should take them under protection, take a blow upon ourselves ... ”

Probably, Pavel Ignatievich understood that the matter would not go further than the notation, therefore he acted without permission. He was respected and appreciated. So Grokhovsky’s “amateur performances” had no effect on his future work. A "method of failure" was approved by a special commission.
I didn’t knock him out of a rut and failure during the testing of the Kukaracha G-39 aircraft. Testing a new car was entrusted to Chkalov. When he was in the cabin, he said: “Look, and the truth is like a cockroach. Well, I'll try. ” But even such a master could not lift the plane into the air. Chkalov drove him through the airfield until he ran out of fuel. Then he said: “And the truth is a cockroach! And cockroaches do not know how to fly. You missed something, dear sirs. Or overdone ".



* * *

In 1937, they arrested and then shot Marshal Tukhachevsky. Grokhovsky was left without his influential patron. It is not surprising that Oskonbyuro was soon disbanded, and Pavel Ignatievich himself was transferred to the post of head of the economic department of the Central Council of Osoaviakhim.

This place absolutely did not look like a designer. The only place where he was able to somehow realize his talent, was ... magazine "Technology Youth." So on the pages of the publication the apparatus for the development of the seabed, a spherical polar station, an installation that allowed extracting moisture from the clouds and much, much more, came to life. But without a real everyday practice, Grokhovsky, according to the memoirs of contemporaries, is literally a lot in sight.

A wave of repression began, which, of course, could not help but worry Pavel Ignatievich. He knew that sooner or later, but they would get to him. Prerequisites were enough. For example, almost all of his inventions, which were previously approved by a special commission, were heavily criticized and soon went to "landfill." And since 1938, the airborne troops in the Soviet army have practically ceased to take part in major exercises. Only in August, 1941, the Office of the Airborne Forces appeared.

When the Great Patriotic War began, Pavel Ignatievich was trying with all his might to obtain permission to resume work on the creation of equipment for landing. But he did not succeed. Moreover, reports were even rejected, where he asked to be sent to the front. Probably, then the designer understood what fate they had prepared for him. And no mistake. In early November, 1942, Grokhovsky was arrested on a false charge. Then his wife fell under the rink of repression.

According to the official version, Pavel Ignatievich died four years after his arrest from pulmonary tuberculosis. But in fact, he was shot at the end of May 1943, at the Kommunark landfill. He was rehabilitated and reinstated in the party posthumously in 1957. Then his wife was released.

But it went quietly, unnoticed. Therefore, for several more years, the memory of the designer and inventor Grokhovsky was “in hibernation”. During this time, many of his development successfully found new "owners" who did not shun to pass them off as their own.
The memory of Pavel Ignatievich was aroused by polar pilot Mikhail Kaminsky, who personally tried to understand the “Grokhovsky case”. Here is what he wrote: “There was not one who denied or questioned the fact that it was Grokhovsky, and no one else, who was the author of most of the developments of the landing craft. And that these developments laid the foundations of airborne assault as a new weapon for the army. All agreed that this was indeed the great merit of Grokhovsky. However, no one could give me an answer, why this “great” merit is not made public. Everyone just shrugged. ”

In his book "In the Sky of Chukotka" Kaminsky quoted the Hero of the Soviet Union, Major General aviation Lyapidevsky: “Describing the almost forgotten page of Soviet aviation, which tells about the creation of parachute-landing equipment, which became the basis of a new kind of troops in our army - the airborne landing, the author, as far as I know, is the first to show us the patriotic activity of the remarkable inventor and impudently brave man P. .AND. Grokhovsky. I know about the merits of this man in the creation of the landing technique and I consider it correct that his name was raised from oblivion. "

As for Grokhovsky’s inventions, neither the G-31 nor the G-37 have become serial. But the tests of these aircraft were successful. And LK-2, which they had not even managed to raise to the sky at least once, was simply rolled out of the hangar and destroyed. Perhaps, only the “Light Cruiser” by Pavel Ignatievich gained fame due to the fact that he became the prototype of several aircraft that fought with the Germans in the sky. The sad fate befell both the submarine-baby (by design, it was necessary to drop it by parachute), and the projects of the flying tank and vertical take-off aircraft. All this turned out to be unnecessary.

And finally, the recollection of Grokhovsky’s cousin Raisa Semyonovna Fedorova: “Pavel and I were the same age. I studied at the Mariinsky Gymnasium in Tver, and he is in a real school. Pavel was known to all Tver, he was a real bastard, did not recognize any authority. Even adults were afraid of him, because he could have done something that others were afraid to even think about. One day, fleeing from the policemen, Pavel rushed to the old Volzhsky Bridge and suddenly, right in the middle of it, he suddenly rushed into the river. Everyone was sure that the boy had drowned, and Pavel had safely reached the shore and was like that. ”

Pavel Ignatievich can be considered a madman who tried to bring all his bold ideas to life. In fact, he was guided by the words that he often repeated to his colleagues: “This is necessary for our Motherland. Remember this, and you will not be difficult in a moment of danger. "
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Rehabilitated posthumously. Interrupted flight of Pavel Grokhovsky (part 1)
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  1. Vard
    Vard April 8 2018 06: 19
    +4
    It is thanks to such people that progress stands still ... Yes, they were not ideal from the point of view of those around them ... But these were the ones who wrote the story ...
  2. Amurets
    Amurets April 8 2018 06: 32
    +4
    Pavel Ignatievich can be considered a madman who tried to bring all his bold ideas to life. In fact, he was guided by the words that he often repeated to his colleagues: “This is necessary for our Motherland. Remember this, and you will not be difficult in a moment of danger. "
    Yes. Thanks to the author. Pavel Ignatevich has long been gone, but his ideas live and are applied in real constructions. Here is an interesting article from the magazine Popular Mechanics https://www.popmech.ru/weapon/7315-pryzhok-bez-pa
    rashyuta-gruzoviki-v-polete / Here is one example of the application of Grokhovsky's ideas by the Americans.
    And at that time, more and more pallets appeared from the fuselage, landing on the ground. No sooner had the Vietnamese come to their senses, as a giant transporter, roaring with four turboprop engines, disappeared into the clouds. For the first time in the world in combat conditions, the Low Altitude Parachute Extraction System (LAPES) was used. Over the 78-day period of the siege of Hye-san, the 109th Air Transport Division delivered about 8000 tons of cargo to the defending marines in such a fantastic way.
  3. Monster_Fat
    Monster_Fat April 8 2018 06: 47
    +9
    It was a terrible time .... However, after reading a bunch of literature about "repression", I suddenly had a strong feeling that the repressions were originally "targeted", but were picked up and promoted by officials, leaders and other people who saw them as ideal a way to get rid of the active, “passionate” part of the population, which constantly “excited”, “disturbed”, forced to “move”, “do something” all this bureaucratic-party apparatus. imagining himself a nascent "new nobility".
    1. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 April 8 2018 08: 46
      +7
      As for the repressions - it seems like the 42s no longer shot everyone at all on false and far-fetched accusations. request Or, despite the talent of this person, was there also a real reason for the execution?
      1. Golovan Jack
        Golovan Jack April 8 2018 09: 04
        +10
        Quote: Ingvar 72
        Or, despite the talent of this person, was there also a real reason for the execution?

        Doubt it? Of course it was.
        Someone "silently" removed an uncomfortable person, for example request
        Very few people like competitors. And “flying high - it hurts to fall” to this day has not been canceled.
        This is true,
        Quote: Ingvar 72
        for example
        1. Ingvar 72
          Ingvar 72 April 8 2018 12: 45
          +3
          Quote: Golovan Jack
          Someone "silently" removed an uncomfortable person, for example

          And it is possible. request But it is possible that Grokhovsky really participated in something Tukhachevskом.
          Do not forget - was 42 years old. Rokosovsky was already returned, Tupolev in the 41st returned the same. hi
          Or do you, as usual, just be smart in the style of “Baba Yaga against”?
          1. Golovan Jack
            Golovan Jack April 8 2018 12: 47
            +7
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            Or do you, as usual, just be smart in the style of “Baba Yaga against”?

            Nope.
            I am, as usual, amused by your manner, without writing, in fact, anything, to make a talented person wassat
            No more.
            1. Ingvar 72
              Ingvar 72 April 8 2018 14: 29
              +7
              Quote: Golovan Jack
              make a talented face

              I don’t care what my face looks like, the essence is more important. Just not everyone is given.
              You would have Kitty to learn how to troll from the ATV shark, there is at least intelligence between the sub-picks. Although ..... that dad is not invested, do not drive a stick. wink
              Pussycat, you, as a “professional” sysadmin, are piercing on trifles - on the comments of three - five days ago, add the pluses yourself - the fawn is concrete! wink
              1. Golovan Jack
                Golovan Jack April 8 2018 15: 01
                +7
                Quote: Ingvar 72
                on the comments of three - five days ago, add the pluses yourself - fawn specific

                Contact the administration. Information about "likes" (who, when, to whom and how much) is definitely there.
                If you manage to convince them of their innocence - you may be informed of these details.
                In the meantime, your thoughts are no different from yours, um, extremely meaningful, comments.
                And, yes - I don’t have a “second me” here, if you are talking about this.
                Quote: Ingvar 72
                essence is more important. It’s just not given to everyone

                Verily. Glad you recognized this, finally. It is not given to you.
                This is where we finish yes
                1. Ingvar 72
                  Ingvar 72 April 8 2018 15: 07
                  +4
                  Quote: Golovan Jack
                  And, yes - I don’t have “second me” here, if you’re talking about it

                  Of course Kitty, of course! laughing
                  Quote: Golovan Jack
                  Verily. Glad you recognized it, finally

                  Well, again - an orange switchman jacket in the studio! good
      2. MrK
        MrK April 8 2018 20: 37
        +5
        Quote: Ingvar 72
        As for the repressions - it seems like the 42s no longer shot everyone at all on false and far-fetched accusations.

        I agree. I would like to see the documents from the criminal case. And not just hysterical crying for the innocently killed.
    2. BAI
      BAI April 8 2018 09: 16
      +5
      Just arithmetic (without any policy)
      According to the Smolensk executive committee, in April 1929 in the Smolensk province (just before the creation of the Western region), 78 representatives of national minorities were registered, which amounted to 703% of the total population of the province.

      This means that the population of the province was 2 people (now 248657 (official figures, not from the Wiki (953200)).
      resources/3bd0730047071c7396eebe87789c42f5/smck17
      . Pdf
      Next.
      Conclusion on the audit materials

      about mass graves in the Smolensk region

      victims of political repression.

      January 31, 1995

      "APPROVED"

      AND ABOUT. Prosecutor of the Smolensk region

      Senior Counselor of Justice

      Kovalev A.P. Kovalev

      January 31, 1995

      ZAKLU CHE N I E

      based on verification materials

      about mass graves in the Smolensk region

      victims of political repression

      In the course of work on the implementation of the Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR of January 16, 1989 “On Additional Measures to Restore Justice in Relation to Victims of Repressions that Occurred in the Period of the 30s and 40s and the Beginning of the 50s”, as well as the Law of the Russian Federation of 18 On October 1991, “On the Rehabilitation of Victims of Political Repression,” the FGC Department of the Smolensk Region studied acts on the execution of sentences, as well as archival investigative files stored in the archive of the Department.

      The existing acts indicate that the sentences were carried out in the cities of Smolensk, Vyazma, Velizh, Roslavl (Smolensk region), as well as Minsk, Polotsk, Vitebsk, Borisov, Orsha2, Sukhinichi, Klintsy and Bryansk3.

      It is established that the acts were preserved for the period from 1928 [g.] To November 1938. According to the acts (as in the text - N.I.) [,] during this time 7 931 people were shot in the city [city] of Smolensk, 846 people were the city [city] of Vyazma, 468 people were more senior and the city [city] [city] Roslavl 717 people4.

      The acts identified only one place of execution and burial in the Smolensk region. This is "... Semenovskaya forest cottage, which is 8 km north-east of the city [orode] Velizh." (d. 712, ld 135; d. 713, ld 193)
      - the document is presented on the pro-Ukrainian website.
      Shot - 9962 people. But this is 0,44% of the population. We now have a natural population decline more (especially in the "saints" 90s.). Better yet, compare the population before and after the war - they did not even come close to the pre-war. And we can reasonably assume that such a percentage is in other areas. A study of Smolensk historians and archivists with similar results on repressions (only they have an exact population figure right away, not calculated like mine) is on the Internet.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich April 8 2018 13: 25
        +4
        Quote: BAI
        Shot - 9962 people. But this - 0,44% population.
        Those. shoot in Peaceful time, throughout the year (mainly), 0, 44% his population is normal? Rehabilitated sweat, in the vast majority. Where is the limit of cynicism? request
        If you were in this number, would it also be normal?
        1. BAI
          BAI April 8 2018 17: 45
          +7
          You learn to read documents? Or do you want to see nothing in anti-Soviet frenzy?
          I didn’t specifically chew, I thought that I would not need it. I quote again:
          for the period from 1928 [g.] to November 1938.
          - this is TEN (again, TEN) years!
          Here "- where exactly
          in peacetime during the year (mostly), 0, 44%

          If it’s not clear - 0,044% in the YEAR. We now have more people dying in road accidents in the YEAR.

          HOW MUCH DO I LIE?
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich April 9 2018 08: 59
            +1
            Quote: BAI
            You learn to read documents? Or do you want to see nothing in anti-Soviet frenzy?
            I didn’t specifically chew, I thought that I would not need it. I quote again

            When will you learn to read? Or do you want to see nothing in a flash?
            I didn’t specifically chew, I thought that I would not need it. I quote again:
            Those. to shoot in peacetime, throughout the year (mainly).0, 44% of their population is normal?

            Normal people know that the bulk of executions were during the YEAR - from 9.37 to 9.38.
            Quote: BAI
            We have now in an accident people in the YEAR dies more.

            Therefore, you can safely shoot 0,44% of their fellow citizens ?!
            I ask again: where is the limit of cynicism and cannibalism? request
    3. avt
      avt April 8 2018 12: 24
      +7
      Quote: Monster_Fat
      It was a terrible time ....

      request ,, Iron Age, iron hearts ... "
      Quote: Monster_Fat
      However, after reading a heap of literature on “repression”, I suddenly had a strong feeling that the repression was originally “targeted”

      And they were such. Of course, strangers fell into the denunciations, not even classroom aliens. But the numbers of the really repressed are open and millions of Solzhenitsen’s do not fit into them at all. Something about Grokhovsky ... here
      Quote: Ingvar 72
      Reply Citiro

      I don’t agree, I could find some paper on him, but .... Judging by the level at which he flew, well, Alksnis, Tukhachevsky, then you need to dig in the archive of the former administrative department of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, and who the hell will open another 100 years for sure.
      1. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 April 8 2018 12: 47
        +3
        Quote: avt
        and who the hell will open another 100 years for sure.

        Namely, horseradish (plant) knows him. hi
        1. Reptiloid
          Reptiloid April 8 2018 19: 31
          +3
          Quote: Ingvar 72
          Quote: avt
          and who the hell will open another 100 years for sure.

          Namely, horseradish (plant) knows him. hi

          It’s a pity that he didn’t die by his death; Envious people, mediocrity, apparently tried, apparently, dug under it, or maybe knew that .......
    4. kalibr
      kalibr April 8 2018 22: 15
      +1
      You're not right! 60% of the convicted peasants, what passionaries are there ...
      1. Alexander Greene
        Alexander Greene April 9 2018 01: 28
        +3
        Quote: kalibr
        You're not right! 60% of the convicted peasants, what passionaries they are there.

        The country was peasant, the majority of the people lived in the village, and a real class struggle broke out there, the kulaks campaigned against the creation of collective farms, every day kulaks killed Soviet, party workers, Somol members, collective farm activists, poisoned livestock, burned farms, barns, at my ex At that time, the father was the head of the regional administration of the OGPU-NKVD, he said that in those years his father practically did not spend the night at home, every night in the district there was some kind of emergency.
        1. antivirus
          antivirus April 9 2018 15: 01
          +2
          nearby is my about "23.03.89/XNUMX/XNUMX"

          grandfather told prim at the same time--
          "I had a bride (? love) Natasha, a member of the Komsomol. her fists burned in 29 g"
          I don’t remember - maybe "she suggested, persuaded to join the Komsomol"
          then they started building the IvGRES gKomsomolsk-- they burnt the hut with the workers, at night, locked it up and ... all


          father spoke

          a lot of . long remembered it. high-profile case ..
          I think - the simplest - because of the land could-- land allocation, etc.
    5. antivirus
      antivirus April 9 2018 14: 53
      +1
      this is exactly what happened - rare ideas do not resonate with the masses
      both in the usa and in the UK
      March 23, 1989 the first elections were held for the Congress of People's Deputies of the USSR.
      Father says: you need to ask your grandfather about repression.
      - He's not the boss in appearance.
      - Grandfather served in the prosecutor's office.
      And the grandfather had his 28th birthday. We arrived, presented shoes, sat down at the table. grandfather drank a stack over his 80th birthday ("the head will make a noise anyway").
      I remind my father: you need to ask about repression.
      Father asks the question "Have you participated?"
      -not
      -And who, how, when. why?
      - This is who wanted to curry favor.
      And he went to drink the pill "from the head."
      The pig will find dirt. and what did the man seek, how did he live ?.
      In 2015, I asked my aunt, 1933: what was said about my grandfather?
      - Nothing bad, but my childhood friend Kolya (her husband) was taken away from his father, the chairman of the collective farm, and no one knows where.
      These are the pies with kittens for Memorial.
      Who wanted to build socialism, built, who wanted to hang-hang, drown kittens, drowned and strangled (according to Bulgakov).
      I believe that the contradictions from the 19th century that have come to us (and that led to the three revolutions, we have not overcome for 50-70 years, but for 30-40 years.
      Can these terms be called an achievement?
      He served as a tank driver in Rybnitsy 4 g. (Father was born in Balta) Wanted to stay on extra urgent.
      "Grandfather in December 36 was demobilized from the Red Army, went to work for the Markov peat enterprise
      , and in January 37, according to the party recruitment, they were called to the prosecutor’s office ”
  4. Amateur
    Amateur April 8 2018 07: 27
    +3
    If you add Kurchevsky and Bekauri to Grokhovsky, you get Leonardo of the 20th century. They just didn’t know how to draw.
    1. Aviator_
      Aviator_ April 8 2018 10: 55
      +1
      Leonardo was a brilliant artist, everything else is a PR from the time of the struggle of Italy for independence. Every nation needs genius ancestors to be sure. Here Leonardo attributed a lot of engineering solutions that have never been implemented. Khokhlov is currently warming the idea of ​​his great stolen excavations of the Black Sea, while Italians took the artist Leonardo and replicated not only his doctrine of perspective and other purely artistic studies, but also sketches about the “parachute”, “tank” and other things, never implemented.
      1. Bersaglieri
        Bersaglieri April 8 2018 11: 54
        +1
        Not just an artist. Castello Sforcheska and the canal system in Milan is his business too.
        Fortification engineer. And he also killed corpses, an amateur anatomist.
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ April 8 2018 16: 27
          +2
          He was an engineer, that's right. And he was engaged in anatomy for his artistic exercises - so nobody could draw at least “Lady with an ermine”. And it can’t.
          1. Bersaglieri
            Bersaglieri April 13 2018 23: 37
            0
            More artillery systems. Mortira with a goniometer, "Organ" - that was realized
  5. Olgovich
    Olgovich April 8 2018 08: 34
    +8
    Why are coffins, a waste of money on equipment, when in the fuselage of TB fit much more and more comfortable people?
    It is clear when the cradles for people were suspended under software 2, but here it’s not clear ...

    An interesting person was talented ...

    But acquaintance with Tukhachevsky, Dybenko did not pass in vain: he was shot for ... treason to the motherland fool
    Interestingly, there are people who justify these innumerable killings of their citizens so far!
    1. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 April 8 2018 08: 51
      +13
      Yes, for example. Here you need to figure out who is in vain and who is not. Tukhachevsky was shot in vain? No, not in vain. Read the book "anti-archepelag, or there will be no rehabilitation" of the Tabletop. He lists all merits "innocently" executed senior officers. hi
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich April 8 2018 13: 09
        +4
        Quote: Ingvar 72
        Here you need to understand who is in vain and who is not.

        1. Already for a long time those who should understand also understood -judicial branch. The vast majority are rehabilitated, including ALL top commanders of the Red Army.
        Quote: Ingvar 72
        Read the book "anti-archepelag, or there will be no rehabilitation" of the Tabletop. He lists all the merits of the "innocently" executed senior officers.

        I insist on P1, because no one and nothing has the right to call a person a criminal and, moreover, kill, except for the court. And the court = justified them all.
        In addition, a “conspiracy” of this magnitude is not being investigated for .....18 (!) Days, the court does not last .... ONE day and the "convicts" are not shot in ... HOUR after the sentence. This is pure reprisal, IMHO. Well, the court only confirmed my opinion. hi
        PS NOR in one country in the world, there have never been so many "enemies" of the people.
        1. Ingvar 72
          Ingvar 72 April 8 2018 14: 50
          +6
          Quote: Olgovich
          judiciary. The vast majority are rehabilitated, including ALL top commanders of the Red Army.

          By whom? The executioners of Stalin and Beria, who was quickly shot without trial or investigation?
          Quote: Olgovich
          And the court = justified them all.

          As Chadsky said, “And who are the judges?” Andrey, do you seriously believe in the impartiality of the court? (by the way, no matter what time)
          Quote: Olgovich
          This is pure reprisal, IMHO.

          Oh, if Chubais were shot in five minutes, the whole country would have no doubts! wink
          Quote: Olgovich
          In no country in the world has there ever been so many "enemies" of the people.

          It's just that in other countries they shot, cut and hung for other voiced reasons. And in much larger quantities. hi
          1. Golovan Jack
            Golovan Jack April 8 2018 15: 07
            +7
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            As Chadsky said ...

            You yourself are Chad...
            You need to know the classics, or ... not to use them.
            1. Ingvar 72
              Ingvar 72 April 8 2018 15: 09
              +2
              As usual - nit-picking is not to the point, but to commas. laughing Thinking (and not crap) when we learn, Kitty? wink
              1. Golovan Jack
                Golovan Jack April 8 2018 15: 13
                +8
                Quote: Ingvar 72
                nitpicking not to the point, but to commas

                Young ... madman, if you call you that - you’ll be offended, probably?
                Classic gave the hero a surname Chatskyand you distort it ...
                Not good request
                Very reminiscent of a quote from the Strugatsky:
                ... your bad manners ... is comparable only with your ignorance
                1. Ingvar 72
                  Ingvar 72 April 8 2018 15: 20
                  +4
                  Quote: Golovan Jack
                  Young ... madman, if you call you that - you’ll be offended, probably?

                  Though a pot, if only they would not put it in the stove.
                  Quote: Golovan Jack
                  Not good

                  Chatsky is so dear to you that you take banal grammatical errors so close to your heart? belay The ideal is certainly worthy, but the follower sucks! wink
                  Quote: Golovan Jack
                  Your bad manners ... only comparable to your ignorance

                  Again you interfere with flies with cutlets. Illiteracy is often the result of error, but the origins of bad manners lie much deeper. Understand the hint, or chew?
                  1. Golovan Jack
                    Golovan Jack April 8 2018 15: 24
                    +8
                    Quote: Ingvar 72
                    Chatsky is so dear to you that you take banal grammatical errors so close to your heart?

                    Um ... at one time I learned by heart to argue "Woe from Wit" by heart ... I "learned" the Russian language a little earlier. Also, um, by heart.
                    So - is it clear, or chew?

                    Quote: Ingvar 72
                    Illiteracy is often the result of error ...

                    ... in the DNA. Pray to God that this is not your case yes
                    Quote: Ingvar 72
                    ... but the roots of bad manners are ...

                    On the surface they lie. If a person is poorly educated, little can help him.
                    As far as I can see, this is exactly your case. Condolences request
                    1. Ingvar 72
                      Ingvar 72 April 8 2018 15: 36
                      +2
                      Quote: Golovan Jack
                      Um ... at one time I learned by heart to argue "Woe from Wit" by heart

                      And they understood the name literally? belay
                      Quote: Golovan Jack
                      in the DNA. Pray to God that this is not your case

                      Judging by the comments, the case is just yours! laughing
                      Quote: Golovan Jack
                      On the surface they lie.

                      Here you are right, only re-education (like love) all ages are submissive. Live and learn. It depends on the teacher. The main thing is that the soil be fertile. But there are instances of which I spoke out "that the pope is not invested - do not drive a stick." This is again a THICK hint. wink
                      1. Golovan Jack
                        Golovan Jack April 8 2018 15: 46
                        +9
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        But there are instances of which I spoke ...

                        You spoke about yourself. Enough enough, what else is there to crush the water?
                        And in general - your claims to wit and some "mega-knowledge" are not even funny already.
                        You are on my crib, baby laughing
                        I’m just picky, and I don’t pull anything and anything into my mouth.
                        I understand, finally already? wink
                      2. Ingvar 72
                        Ingvar 72 April 8 2018 15: 56
                        +3
                        Quote: Golovan Jack
                        You spoke about yourself

                        Again children's arrows. Kitty, your comments are more suitable for the company of backyards. some taunts without meaning. Although the drunks for your tongue would have been piled up for a long time! laughing
                        Quote: Golovan Jack
                        You me on the tooth
                        This is for you to the dentist! Although I can help with a pair of pliers! wink
                        Quote: Golovan Jack
                        and what’s in my mouth I’m not pulling.

                        What you pull in your mouth doesn't bother me. laughing Each has its own gastronomic (and sexual) preferences. wassat
                    2. TiRex
                      TiRex April 13 2018 02: 37
                      0
                      Jack is golovan, not only are you (with a small letter) not educated and tactless, so you blame the other through provocation. rude and lies on the surface, go on to study further, would return the minuses, I'm afraid that you would quickly lose your wound title.
          2. Olgovich
            Olgovich April 8 2018 15: 26
            +4
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            By whom? The executioners of Stalin and Beria, who was quickly shot without trial or investigation

            Rehabilitation began immediately after the death of Stalin and continues BEFORE. And all excuses are falsified and only one day the so-called “courts” and minute triples are the top of justice and objectivity? Sorry, I don’t see the logic.
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            As Chadsky said - "A judges who? "Andrey, do you seriously believe in the impartiality of the court? (By the way, no matter what time)

            No others. And after the 50s they have much more freedom: they didn’t kill anyone, as in the 30s. And here slaughtered each other several waves withuday, nkvdshnikov in the 30s, is an example of objectivity, yes ... By the way, which of them are right, in your opinion? The first wave (berry), the second, third, fourth? recourse
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            It's just that in other countries they shot, cut and hung for other voiced reasons. And in much larger quantities.

            No, there has never been such anywhere and never. hi
            1. Ingvar 72
              Ingvar 72 April 8 2018 15: 43
              +3
              Quote: Olgovich
              nobody was killed, as in the 30s

              Andrey - I’ll send it to Stoleshnikov again. The bulk of the executed deserved this. It was they who fired in the 20s, and they hiccuped in the late 30s. hi
              Quote: Olgovich
              No, there has never been such anywhere and never.

              Jews in Germany under what pretext shot? And the Catholics in England for what reasons they cut? Huguenots in France? Do not dissemble, Andrey. The stated reasons always differed from the true ones. And the true reasons were always the same - power. Only Stalin used his power to achieve the well-being of ALL the people. hi
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich April 8 2018 19: 18
                +4
                Quote: Ingvar 72
                Andrey - I’ll send it to Stoleshnikov again. The bulk of the executed deserved of this. It was they who fired in the 20s, and they hiccuped in the late 30s.

                It is not for Stoleshnikov to decide this, and not for us. There is a court for this and he said his word. Like the legislature, recognizing these "courts" three of them are unconstitutional and illegal.
                When every day within 12 months (9.1937-9.38) shot about 1800 people and several thousand are still being planted — this is wild, and even in peacetime — this is my opinion.
                the bulk of the people destroyed under Yezhov, who, in turn, was destroyed, including and for falsification of cases. So who is innocent: annihilated hedgehogs or annihilated hedgehogs? The same is with Berry and Beria. There were "gangs of Berry, Yezhov, Beria," which cleaned up each other. Someone NOT a gangster?
                Quote: Ingvar 72
                Jews in Germany under what pretext shot? .
                And NOT in Germany, for what reasons they destroyed Millions of Jews? Also for power? And the overwhelming mass of Jews (shopkeepers, engineers, etc.) in Germany, what did they have to do with power?request
                Quote: Ingvar 72
                And the Catholics in England for what reasons they cut? Huguenots in France? Do not dissemble, Andrey. The stated reasons always differed from the true ones. And the true reasons were always the same - power.

                There is power, yes, but it’s ridiculous, sorry, to compare 6 thousand killed in 16th century Huguenots-s on orders a large number destroyed in 20th century.
                There has never been such a thing anywhere.
                Quote: Ingvar 72
                Only Stalin used his power to achieve prosperity TOTAL people.

                By 1950, consumption and housing only caught up 1913g.
                The 1930s are generally a disaster compared to 1913.
                Since 1964, the Russian depopulation, to which they have been going since the 1930s.
                Is this well-being? request hi
                1. Ingvar 72
                  Ingvar 72 April 8 2018 21: 45
                  +3
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Is this well-being?

                  Do you take two wars and a revolution with money from the same West when calculating? wink
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich April 9 2018 07: 42
                    +1
                    Quote: Ingvar 72
                    Do you take two wars and a revolution with money from the same West when calculating?

                    With a fright?
                    ANYWHERE in the speeches of the Bolshevik leadership of the 30s there is no talk of what is living (according to food, clothing, housing), worse than in 1913.
                    On the contrary, according to them, everyone turned into ... "prosperous people"! yes
                    PS So what gang is NEBAND? recourse
                2. Reptiloid
                  Reptiloid April 8 2018 23: 11
                  +2
                  Olgovich, and what authority recognized the triple courts as unlawful? American, Ukrainian? Or whose else? You’ve been on the site for a long time, no matter how it was called. There was once an article on this subject, where it was very well explained that the triple courts complied with the law of that time. And it was also written in connection with which these triple courts were created and when and why they were abolished.
                  And about how the workers lived in 1913, in what monstrous conditions-barracks, and even right in the shops, various commentators have already quoted more than once.
                  Are you all one and the same, or you, it’s not you, but your follower at Klava?
                  .
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich April 9 2018 07: 49
                    +1
                    Quote: Reptiloid
                    Olgovich, and what authority recognized the triple courts as unlawful? American, Ukrainian? Or whose else?

                    Sovestkaya and Russian.
                    Quote: Reptiloid
                    There was once an article on this subject, where it was very well explained that the triple courts complied with the law of that time.

                    Did not meet: see Decrees of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR of 1989, Law of the Russian Federation of 1991
                    Quote: Reptiloid
                    And about how the workers lived in 1913, in what monstrous conditions-barracks, and even right in the shops, various commentators have already quoted more than once.

                    The indicator of living space per person in a city before the VOR, in the USSR was reached only in the mid-60s. This is not chatter, but a fact.
                    Quote: Reptiloid
                    And you are all the same

                    And you are all the same, the same yes
                    1. Reptiloid
                      Reptiloid April 9 2018 10: 35
                      0
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      ,
                      Quote: Reptiloid
                      There was once an article on this subject, where it was very well explained that the triple courts complied with the law of that time.

                      Did not meet: see Decrees of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR of 1989, the Law of the Russian Federation of 1991 yes
                      Well, yes, yes, humpbacked or something from the perestroika future canceled the revolutionary past. How many times have I looked at your links and they didn’t lead anywhere, or, conversely, turned out to be fabricated from different pieces, or from different times. So now ---- once, inconveniently, but I will try to find my bookmarks by housing. ONE can say. In Leningrad, even before the war, in the 30s, the construction of steel and kirovka began to improve the living conditions of workers. Often they were built near the factories. Yes, these were houses where 2-3 families lived in one apartment, communal apartments. But not the huts, the rooms were large, the windows ---- wide. In addition to residential buildings, city facilities were built, both industrial and cultural. WWII interrupted this construction. In Leningrad, it resumed in the 50s
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich April 9 2018 10: 50
                        +1
                        Quote: Reptiloid
                        Well, yes, yes, humpbacked or something from the perestroika future canceled the revolutionary past. How many times have I looked at your links and they didn’t lead anywhere, or, on the contrary, turned out to be fabricated from different pieces, or from different times.

                        Give at least ONE concrete example. Otherwise, you are, I'm sorry, just a liar.
                        Quote: Reptiloid
                        So now ---- once, inconveniently, but I will try to find my bookmarks by housing. ONE can say. In Leningrad, even before the war, in the 30s, the construction of steel and kirovka began to improve the living conditions of workers. Often they were built near the factories. Yes, these were houses where 2-3 families lived in one apartment, communal apartments. But not the huts, the rooms were large, the windows ---- wide. In addition to residential buildings, city facilities were built, both industrial and cultural. WWII interrupted this construction. In Leningrad, it resumed in the 50s

                        And in 1918, during the devastation, they also built it. So until 1938 they built as much a year as they did in .... 1918.
                        Remember how many MILLIONS moved to the cities!
                3. Alexander Greene
                  Alexander Greene April 9 2018 02: 10
                  +3
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  the bulk of the people destroyed under Yezhov, who, in turn, was destroyed, including and for falsification of cases. So who is innocent: annihilated hedgehogs or annihilated hedgehogs? The same is with Berry and Beria. There were "gangs of Berry, Yezhov, Beria," which cleaned up each other. Someone NOT a gangster?

                  There were not so many falsified cases, and under Yagoda, and under Yezhov, and under Beria, the enemies of the people were repressed, of course, innocent people were caught, but again they were planted on a denunciation of enemies who sat on crevices and wrote anonymous letters. Three anonymous letters were written on Ivanov, that he was an enemy, what should I do? It will take a long time to figure it out, and it won’t react, you won’t be put in time, and he will carry out a terrorist attack or sabotage from you and they will ask for this. It was precisely for this that Yagoda and Yezhov were repressed that they encouraged such a policy.
                  And so all the major judicial trials were open, even representatives of the West attended them and none of them at that time had any doubt that this was all fabricated.
                  And here is how re-rehabilitation, it is necessary to look. There were no open meetings of the rehabilitation commissions (the same "troika"), and they conducted an examination of cases in an even shorter time, and rehabilitated them with indiscriminately There was such an installation from Khrushchev and Gorbachov. My classmate in the Kots of the 80s, while serving in the Regional Directorate of the KGB of the USSR, was just engaged in rehabilitation, as he told how they did it.
                  One such case. They rehabilitated one head of the department, either a regional or regional department of the NKVD (I don’t remember anymore) for wasting large sums of money. The time was severe - he got 10 years and died in the camp. In the case, only the act of embezzlement was preserved. The Commission considered that it was fabricated, because from where they say he could have had so much money, in his office he has only two tables, chairs, an armchair, a leather sofa - they don’t pull this amount, which means slander and ... they rehabilitated.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich April 9 2018 07: 55
                    +1
                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    Falsified cases were not so much

                    WHO has determined this? You? lol Yeah, "authority" fool
                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    and under Berry, and under Yezhov, and under Beria, they repressed the enemies of the people,

                    Those. ALL three gangs-destroyed right ?! fool
                    1. Reptiloid
                      Reptiloid April 9 2018 21: 36
                      +1
                      Olgovich, how many times have you been exposed, and Alexander, and the Doctor, and LONG TIME IN STOCK, and Khan Tengri! They tried and explained. What's the point? Do you think I will now? Count as you want. , You after all blame all the liars ----- such is your work.
                      But, about the life of the pre-revolutionary workers I will from time to time cite references, this is exactly the same with my work. But not here, because the article is about the inventor.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich April 10 2018 08: 10
                        +1
                        Quote: Reptiloid
                        Olgovich, how many times You were exposed, and Alexander, and the Doctor, and LONG TIME IN STOCK, and Khan Tengri!

                        Never
                        Quote: Reptiloid
                        You are all blame the liars--

                        You, and not everyone: you claimed that my links were false, you couldn’t prove it, respectively, you are a liar.
                        Quote: Reptiloid
                        But, about the life of the pre-revolutionary workers I will from time to time cite references, this is exactly the same with my work. But not here, because the article is about the inventor.

                        Do not work, better tell us about the life of workers in barracks and dugouts in the USSR.
                    2. Alexander Greene
                      Alexander Greene April 9 2018 21: 41
                      +3
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Those. ALL three gangs-destroyed right ?!

                      Do you have a different opinion? Do you think that the Vlasovites, Banderaites and other traitors who mocked our prisoners of war together by the Nazis, killers of Soviet activists, incendiaries of collective farm property, etc. repressed wrong?
                      And, what time I advise you: do not twist yourself at the temple, do not show that uvs is not enough. I mean your love for emoticons.
                      There is anecdote of the Khrushchev era about this. Khrushchev every morning leaves his house, and the janitor threatens him with his fist, well, Khrushchev - what to do? To arrest? - It seems so far for nothing - probably some. Khrushchev twisted him at his temple. The next day everything repeated.
                      Then the guys from the guard really fussed, raked the janitor, interrogated: Why are you threatening the head of state with your fist? - And the janitor makes excuses: Yes, I’m not threatening, I show him to keep the country in his fist, and he shows me that there’s not enough mind.
                      So you, with your smiles, show there is nothing to answer you - the mind is not enough.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich April 10 2018 08: 30
                        +1
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        Do you have a different opinion? Do you think that the Vlasovites, Banderaites and other traitors who mocked our prisoners of war together by the Nazis, killers of Soviet activists, incendiaries of collective farm property, etc. repressed wrong?

                        WHAT IN 1930-e years Vlasovites, Bandera ?!fool
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        And, what time I advise you: do not twist yourself at the temple, do not show that uvs is not enough. I mean your love for emoticons.

                        belay
                        I comment on YOUR "thoughts", respectively, they also include emoticons. yes How much time should be spent on writing, let's say: "Your thought is tra-ta-ta"? A smiley face fool set and ALL understood and everything within the framework of the Rules yes
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        there is nothing to answer you - the mind is not enough.
                        lol laughing
                      2. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene April 10 2018 18: 13
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        there is nothing to answer you - the mind is not enough.

                        Now this is prim-and-and-in, not even a kindergarten, a sandbox, you are degrading before our eyes. I wrote that you need to be treated, but now I realized that this is useless - your diagnosis is vicious stupidity and she is not being treated.
                      3. Olgovich
                        Olgovich April 11 2018 09: 05
                        +1
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        Here it is prim-and-and-in, not even a kindergarten, a sandbox, you are degrading before our eyes.

                        Well, who do you mean your ratings mean something to me? Hunting screen dunk? request
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        I wrote that you need to be treated, but now I realized that this is useless - your diagnosis is srambling stupidity, but she is not being treated.

                        Yes, you have:
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        evil stupidity

                        lol
                        PS Do not disturb me empty LITTLE LITTLE off topic. Nothing to say on the merits? Do not litter!
              2. Hantengri
                Hantengri April 8 2018 21: 48
                +4
                Quote: Ingvar 72
                nobody was killed, as in the 30s
                Andrey - I’ll send it to Stoleshnikov again. The bulk of the executed deserved this. It was they who fired in the 20s, and they hiccuped in the late 30s.

                Quote: Ingvar 72
                No, there has never been such anywhere and never.
                Jews in Germany under what pretext shot? And the Catholics in England for what reasons they cut? Huguenots in France? Do not dissemble, Andrey. The stated reasons always differed from the true ones. And the true reasons were always the same - power. Only Stalin used his power to achieve the well-being of ALL the people.

                The namesake, who are you trying to explain all this? Same Olgovich!!! Because of his hatred of the Soviet regime, things like logic, objectivity and common sense are atrophied at all.
                1. Ingvar 72
                  Ingvar 72 April 8 2018 22: 09
                  +4
                  Quote: HanTengri
                  The namesake, who are you trying to explain all this? This is Olgovich !!!

                  In his comments there is logic and meaning, and I argue and argue. request Although the monarchist himself. Anti-Leninist, but Stalinist. bully
                  By the way without your intellectual Glum is sometimes boring, the cat manul (golovan jack) does not shine with intelligence. wink With longing I remember a friend under the nickname;). crying The opponent was gorgeous, not ashamed to admit his mistakes. hi
                  1. Hantengri
                    Hantengri April 8 2018 23: 59
                    +3
                    Quote: Ingvar 72
                    In his comments there is logic and meaning, and I argue and argue

                    Have you ever tried to force him (Olgovich) to provide an evidence base confirming his revelations? You try ... I think you will find a lot of pleasant minutes! laughing
                    Quote: Ingvar 72
                    Although the monarchist himself. Anti-Leninist, but Stalinist.

                    It happens! wassat : (Monarchist => for class society. And in order to determine whether Stalin was anti-Leninist, you should, first, carefully read the PSS of both of them. Do you need it? lol )
                    Quote: Ingvar 72
                    Two wars and revolution for the money of the same west when calculating take into account?
                    There is no documentary evidence of this, from the word "completely." For, otherwise, the "partners", starting with Hitler, would screech about them from every iron. But no. They are silent.
                    Quote: Ingvar 72
                    By the way, without your intellectual glum it’s sometimes boring

                    Life is a very strange thing. In it, in addition to pleasant mumbling, you have to, for some reason, also work ... laughing
        2. Alexander Greene
          Alexander Greene April 9 2018 01: 33
          +2
          Quote: Olgovich
          PS NOR in one country in the world, there have never been so many "enemies" of the people.

          And in no country in the world at that time did the people throw back the burials from their backs, and they are known to have responded to the revolution with counter-revolution, they did not need a fair society, they had to return the privileges to parasitize the people.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich April 9 2018 07: 52
            +2
            Quote: Alexander Green
            And in no country in the world at that time did the people throw back the burials from their backs, and they are known to have responded to the revolution with counter-revolution, they did not need a fair society, they had to return the privileges to parasitize the people.

            You do not notice your bullshit? Those. at people's authorities naturally have more enemies than .... anti-people ?! fool lol
            1. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene April 9 2018 20: 56
              +1
              Quote: Olgovich
              Those. people's power naturally has more enemies than .... anti-people ?!

              Not more, but they are more insidious, meaner and ruthless.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich April 10 2018 08: 49
                +1
                Quote: Alexander Green
                Not morebut they are more insidious, meaner and ruthless.
                Do you remember yourself?: Just wrote that it is normal when more fool
                1. Alexander Greene
                  Alexander Greene April 10 2018 18: 18
                  0
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Do you remember yourself?: Just wrote that it is normal when more

                  Yes, you are incurable, evil stupidity destroys your mind, you no longer understand what you read, only emoticons
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich April 11 2018 09: 07
                    +1
                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    Yes, you are incurable, evil stupidity destroys your mind, you no longer understand what you read, only emoticons

                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    incurable

                    Do not litter off topic! Tired of ....
        3. your1970
          your1970 April 9 2018 13: 09
          0
          Quote: Olgovich
          PS NOR in one country in the world, there have never been so many "enemies" of the people.
          -were !!!!- Japanese in the USA in 1940-1946, They accused of aiding the enemy only on the basis of ..... nationality !!!! Deprived of everything (including the sacred for capitalism-property !!!), they began to return only in the 50s and then the meager part
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich April 9 2018 14: 22
            +1
            Quote: your1970
            -they were !!!! - the Japanese in the USA in 1940-1946, were accused of aiding the enemy only on the basis of ..... nationality !!!! They deprived of everything (including the sacred for capitalism-property !!!), they began to return only to 50 years and then the scanty part

            How many were those Japanese and how many were repressed in the USSR? Have you compared? AND?
            1. your1970
              your1970 April 9 2018 17: 40
              +1
              130 000 people were driven into camps for six months
              and I dare say - they did not have WAR on their territory (unlike us) ....
              If they happened (on their territory) - WWI - Civilian - WWII - I think that they would be in about the same position - as we are now
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich April 10 2018 08: 54
                +1
                Quote: your1970
                130 people were driven into camps for six months

                In war time. Only Germans were deported to the USSR 1 million people during the war. This can be compared.
                Compare hundreds of thousands executed and millions exiled in peacetime with the Japanese is unthinkable.
    2. Andrey591
      Andrey591 April 8 2018 10: 35
      +3
      Because it’s faster to leave the plane. And in order to leave the plane from the bomb bay (a very comfortable place), it was necessary to do an acrobatic stunt, climb onto the wing and then move down it. How much time it took, and then it is very dangerous to do it at night.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich April 8 2018 13: 12
        +1
        Quote: Andrey591
        And in order to leave the plane from the bomb bay (a very comfortable place), it was necessary to do an acrobatic stunt, climb onto the wing and then move down it. How much time it took, and then it’s very dangerous to do it at night

        It was so "inconvenient" that they still use this method (landing from an airplane), but only meticulous historians remember the tombs. request
    3. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene April 9 2018 23: 49
      0
      Quote: Olgovich
      But the acquaintance with Tukhachevsky, Dybenko did not pass in vain: he was shot for ... treason

      Talented, real science fiction, but weak leader. He was not shot for acquaintance with Tukhachevsky and Dybenko, if they wanted to punish him for this, then they would have done it in 1937-1938, but this did not happen, they just removed him from his post and arrested him in 1942 for that at his institute they sold aircraft drawings to foreigners (Germans).
  6. BAI
    BAI April 8 2018 08: 38
    +5
    Here the "airbus" is better visible than in the photo in the article.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich April 8 2018 13: 14
      0
      Quote: BAI
      Here the "airbus" is better visible than in the photo in the article.

      In such a thing, fall from a height of a 4-storey building (12 meters) No. No.
      1. your1970
        your1970 April 9 2018 17: 43
        0
        for the first time I agree with Olgovich ...
        I wonder: why is there a cylinder attached - somehow it’s not very aviation?
  7. Aviator_
    Aviator_ April 8 2018 10: 49
    +6
    [/ quote] A sad fate befell both the small submarine (by design, it was necessary to parachute it), and the projects of the flying tank and aircraft with vertical take-off. All this turned out to be unnecessary. [Quote]

    It really is not necessary - a waste of large funds with zero result. As for the landing of heavy loads - it is surprising that Grokhovsky did not think of a sequential change in the diameter of the dome by breaking tensile lines, as has been done for 60 years. Of course, he ended up in prison in vain, probably on charges of some envious person. And so - a classic inventor, described by Ilf and Petrov in the image of Polesov
  8. svd-xnumx
    svd-xnumx April 8 2018 11: 53
    0
    And since 1938, the airborne troops in the Soviet army almost ceased to take part in major exercises. Only in August 11941 did the Airborne Command appear.
    It’s strange, but Rezun the liar talked about a million Stalinist paratroopers, who only hitler in 1941, tamed on ukrotv. prevented the capture of Europe.
    1. Aviator_
      Aviator_ April 8 2018 16: 29
      +2
      There were not a million, but a billion; the reason for rezun has already been forgotten.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  9. Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene April 8 2018 12: 15
    +4
    About the reasons for the arrest of Grokhovsky
    Of course, when the war began, Grokhovsky, deprived of any trust, did not get a chance to work on weapons for the Red Army.
    He was arrested in November 1942, allegedly, as they now believe, on a false denunciation, but “there is no smoke without fire,” in those years they did not arrest anyone so easily, especially in 1942.
    Grokhovsky was accused of selling airplane documentation to the Germans at his institute "Rama" (German airborne high-altitude reconnaissance)that they worked on before the war.
    A criminal case apparently accused of accusing one of the specialists, Neki Yevensen, who worked under the command of Grokhovsky and was arrested in 1935, who handed over all the documentation for this aircraft to a foreigner, and the design that went into development was distorted, which made it obviously inoperative.
    Yevensen was then given 5 years of camps and he survived, and Grokhovsky was arrested already in 1942, and there is no exact information for today: he was shot dead in 1943, he died in 1946.
  10. Whispering in the night
    Whispering in the night April 8 2018 12: 57
    +2
    Quote: Alexander Green
    About the reasons for the arrest of Grokhovsky
    Grokhovsky was accused of selling airplane documentation to the Germans at his institute "Rama" (German airborne high-altitude reconnaissance)that they worked on before the war.
    A criminal case apparently accused of accusing one of the specialists, Neki Yevensen, who worked under the command of Grokhovsky and was arrested in 1935, who handed over all the documentation for this aircraft to a foreigner, and the design that went into development was distorted, which made it obviously inoperative.

    Do you believe in this nonsense? And Grokhovsky’s wife, for which he served 15 years (the murderers don’t sit with us), also sold the “frame”?
    1. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene April 9 2018 02: 44
      +1
      Quote: Whispering in the night
      Do you believe in this nonsense? And Grokhovsky’s wife, for which he served 15 years (the murderers don’t sit with us), also sold the “frame”?

      I gave a very logical version, for such things as the sale abroad of drawings of military equipment, many paid, including Tupolev, and after the war, for example, Admiral Galer. But you write, I don’t know what to call it either delirium or a special diso to emphasize the “bloodthirstiness” of the Soviet authorities, which often planted a wife with her husband. Only here again - they didn’t plant it in vain, so it was for what. Well, allow your lies to correct.
      Grokhovsky’s wife did not sit for 15 years as a killer, as you write, she was simply deported to another city, where she lived 14 until 1956.
  11. VeteranVSSSR
    VeteranVSSSR April 8 2018 14: 00
    -1
    Quote: Olgovich
    Why are coffins, a waste of money on equipment, when in the fuselage of TB fit much more and more comfortable people?
    It is clear when the cradles for people were suspended under software 2, but here it’s not clear ...

    An interesting person was talented ...

    But acquaintance with Tukhachevsky, Dybenko did not pass in vain: he was shot for ... treason to the motherland fool
    Interestingly, there are people who justify these innumerable killings of their citizens so far!

    Over time, a lot of ingenious seems simple. Da cradles / ,, coffins '' seem savagery, but this is, ... ... to bear all the hardships and deprivations of military service ... '' and ... no, from the word just do not what ,, rollbacks. ''
    The stepfather, who served in the Tula division, told how they were taught / prepared for prigki.First, the tower, then the aerostat gondola, after the fuselage, the wing went. ''
    Well, and who -
    then: DOSAAF (from the military registration and enlistment office) -3 prizhka, ,, quarantine '' and ... there are only stars above us !!!, ...
    1. your1970
      your1970 April 9 2018 17: 48
      +2
      Quote: VeteranVSSSR
      .transfer all the hardships and deprivations of military service ... '' and ... no, from the word just do not have any, “haulers. ''
      -well-well ... but that's why all of them "BRILLIANT" inventions didn’t benefit the spacecraft - neither Bekauri, nor Kurchevsky, nor Grokhovsky .... and there was a car of such inventors ...

      What’s called: when the loot was spent incomprehensibly on what - but there is no result? Just a little different a little bit of technology for mastering the dough ...
  12. The comment was deleted.
  13. kalibr
    kalibr April 8 2018 22: 17
    +1
    Quote: Ingvar 72
    He lists all the merits of the "innocently" executed senior officers.

    And the fault of 60% of the repressed peasants from among the repressed. He also lists. Or nuns executed?
    1. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene April 9 2018 01: 45
      0
      Quote: kalibr
      And the fault of 60% of the repressed peasants from among the repressed. He also lists. Or nuns executed?

      Every peasant had a life in full view of the whole village, and his fellow villagers could see and know who was breathing with what, they simply did not repress the peasants, repress them for specific deeds. And about the nuns, it’s someone who started the bike.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr April 9 2018 22: 09
        +1
        This is not a bike! A martyrology came to us in Penza for more than 2000 church ministers, including priests and nuns. According to the funds of the FSB and the archives of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. 17 years people worked. And so it came out! And there are their biographies ... and among them ... women are nuns and among them many are executed. There is no logic! In one case, 3 years of camps, in another 10 (for the same!) In the third execution, in the fourth - to release. And there are many nuns! It is clear that the men were shooting priests, but women ... apparently they were more afraid of them than men. Soon there will be an article about this with photos. And you can buy it. And this is only in the Penza region, but how much was in the country ?!
        1. Alexander Greene
          Alexander Greene April 10 2018 01: 14
          +2
          Quote: kalibr
          This is not a bike! A martyrology came to us in Penza for more than 2000 church ministers, including priests and nuns. According to the funds of the FSB and the archives of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. 17 years people worked. And so it came out! And there are their biographies ... and among them ... women are nuns and among them many are executed. There is no logic! In one case, 3 years of camps, in another 10 (for the same!) In the third execution, in the fourth - to release. And there are many nuns! It is clear that the men were shooting priests, but women ... apparently they were more afraid of them than men. Soon there will be an article about this with photos. And you can buy it. And this is only in the Penza region, but how much was in the country ?!


          And let's count. If we assume that this is an incomplete figure, then we take it as the average. We multiply 2000 ministers by 107 (so many regions and territories in the USSR in 1941) and get the number 214 тыс.
          According to the annual "Russian Calendar" as of January 1, 1915, 112 thousand 629 clergy lived throughout the entire Russian Empire, some of them remained in territories not included in the USSR, some emigrated abroad along with the remnants of the "white" troops, someone simply died of old age and illness.
          It is interesting where the NKVD could find in 1937, 214 thousand church ministers to arrest them all. Some slanderers cite more "moderate" figures of 165 thousand priests arrested, but even this figure does not fit with the figure from the "Russian Calendar"

          PS And a little about morality, here you write that a martyrology can be bought, that is, even from this point of view, from a moral point of view, “a holy deed” - to convey the "crimes" of the NKVD to the attention of the people - are trying to make money.
          That is precisely why you will never be able to bury the ideas of communism.
          1. Roman 11
            Roman 11 April 10 2018 21: 19
            0
            That is precisely why you will never be able to bury the ideas of communism.
            Respected Alexander Greenewhat ideas of communism ?? The shooting of their fellow citizens on the order? The person at the base is an animal, if he is culturally miserable, if he gets tired at work, envies that someone lives better, etc., etc - he wants to shoot. And deeply parallel - is it a neighbor, or what a prominent figure is Alksnis or Grokhovsky, well, and nuns are completely silent victims, the very thing is that they come off, maniacs got drunk on the ideas of communism.

            Here's a simple question - what is this idea based on? Marxism? I read "capital" and the conclusion - there is no paradise on earth, it is bad for everyone and the oligarchs and the janitor.

            Demand cannot be planned, as in the USSR, not a single economy, except Cuba and the DPRK, works.

            Where is communism ??
            1. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene April 11 2018 00: 06
              +2
              Quote: Novel 11
              Here's a simple question - what is this idea based on? Marxism? I read "capital" and the conclusion - there is no paradise on earth, it is bad for everyone and the oligarchs and the janitor.

              Dear, are you confusing anything? AT There is not a single word about "capital" about communism, about paradise on earth.
              And that "everyone is bad": while the oligarch is losing weight, the janitor will die.
              1. Roman 11
                Roman 11 April 11 2018 01: 03
                0
                Quote: Alexander Green
                And that "everyone is bad": while the oligarch is losing weight, the janitor will die.

                This is not about that. how to find demand? whom are you going to ship the proletarian economy? And why the machines of the damned capitalists are better than their socialist opponents. Why did the USSR wait with such trepidation for the delivery of any Italian boots? Questions go beyond the horizon.


                Just tell me how to find out demand and that's it - you will gain immortality. In the USSR, automated centers were even created, nothing helped. The proletarian economy has no answer to this, and cannot be by nature.

                Demand is in the bazaar .... so even under the Union there was capitalism of a local scale. And in declaring the NEP, Lenin admitted defeat in the civil and revolution, albeit partial.

                Communism is impossible due to the nature of man, a person has a steady awareness of his meaningless existence, and here also the need to fight for life. Now, if it is financially interested in profit, then yes, for the bonuses, he agrees.

                And yet - even with the advice they were capitalistic. receptions - different incentives for competition - did better, faster - that’s the ticket, all sorts of social competitions, and not all kinds of diplomas, badges, badges, titles there ..... because salaries are basically the same. So there was no pure communism, and if there is one, then his name is altruism wink
  14. Whispering in the night
    Whispering in the night April 9 2018 16: 16
    +1
    Quote: Alexander Green

    I gave a very logical version, for such things as the sale abroad of drawings of military equipment, many paid, including Tupolev, and after the war, for example, Admiral Galer.

    You gave a false version, which after the death of Stalin was completely dismissed by the Soviet court, having completely rehabilitated Grokhovsky. Let me remind you that no one rehabilitated the real (and not invented by Stalin's executioners) traitors to the Motherland either under Khrushchev or later.

    But you write, I don’t know what to call it either delirium or a special diso to emphasize the “bloodthirstiness” of the Soviet authorities, which often planted a wife with her husband. Only here again - they didn’t plant it in vain, so it was for what. Well, allow your lies to correct.
    Grokhovsky’s wife did not sit for 15 years as a killer, as you write, she was simply deported to another city, where she lived 14 until 1956.

    Grokhovsky’s wife did not sit “like a killer,” do not turn my words over, but more than any killer, although she did nothing and was completely rehabilitated by the Soviet court.
    And it was she who was sitting, not serving the link, at least I have just such information gathered here, for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D1%80%D0%BE%
    D1%85%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9,_%D0%9F
    %D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BB_%D0%98%D0%B3%D0%BD%D0%B0
    %D1%82%D1%8C%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87

    If you have another - give a link, if not, then I remind you that lying is not good, dishonest!
    1. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene April 9 2018 22: 59
      0
      Quote: Whispering in the night
      If you have another - give a link, if not, then I remind you that lying is not good, dishonest!

      No need to shame me, I am responsible for each of my words, unlike you, before I write something, I shovel a mountain of information. And you read what Wikipedia slipped to you, and believe it, and do not even think that this could be the most common misinformation.
      So let's measure whose informationIa cooler.
      Nobody has recognized your Wikipedia for a reliable source for a long time, one hundredth percent of the truth is there - only when some event happened, and that is not a fact.
      For your statements on Grokhovsky’s wife, read my source, this is a discussion of the research data by local historians and historians.
      http://forum.mgorv.ru/index.php?topic=9770.0
      Pavel Grokhovsky: studies of local historians and historians
      “Answer # 2: 08 December 2013, 02:10:58”

      ... All attempts by Grokhovsky to rejoin the work were unsuccessful. His reports with a request to send to the front remained unanswered. In 1942, Pavel Ignatievich was arrested on false charges. He died in a camp in 1946 from fleeting consumption. Lidia Alekseevna - the wife of Grokhovsky - together with her daughter Avieta spent fourteen years in exile. In 1956, after the Twentieth Congress of the CPSU, she was rehabilitated and returned to Moscow. Pavel Ignatievich Grokhovsky was also fully rehabilitated and posthumously restored to the party.

      Pavel Grokhovsky: studies of local historians and historians
      “Answer # 7: 08 December 2013, 20:58:40”

      ... In 1980, Lidia Alekseevna Grokhovskaya died. Like Lidia Kulesheva, she was the first female parachutist in the USSR. Pavel Ignatievich's daughter, Aviata Pavlovna, already retired, lives in a summer house near Moscow. Here, in the village of Kotovo, a memorial plaque in memory of the talented inventor P.I. Grokhovsky ...

      As you can see, his daughter is still possibly alive, so you can get first-hand information.

      And here it is described how the drawings of the aircraft were sold.
      https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=kuc9CwAAQBAJ
      & pg = PT643 & lpg = PT643 & dq = for + what + arrests
      ali + grokhovsky & source = bl & ots = zViLhg2lxD &
      & amp;
      amp; amp; amp; sig = jNN6dh4AkUBNZdOFmmGMhmdLTa8 & hl = uk &
      ; ;
      ;sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiyi9Cv-K3aAhXH8ywKHbucCBU4Ch
      DoAQhsMAk#v=onepage&q=%D0%B7%D0%B0%20%D1%87%D
      1%82%D0%BE%20%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE
      %D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%20%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%
      85%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE&
      f = false
  15. The comment was deleted.
  16. kalibr
    kalibr April 9 2018 22: 12
    +1
    Quote: Whispering in the night
    Quote: Alexander Green

    I gave a very logical version, for such things as the sale abroad of drawings of military equipment, many paid, including Tupolev, and after the war, for example, Admiral Galer.

    You gave a false version, which after the death of Stalin was completely dismissed by the Soviet court, having completely rehabilitated Grokhovsky. Let me remind you that no one rehabilitated the real (and not invented by Stalin's executioners) traitors to the Motherland either under Khrushchev or later.

    But you write, I don’t know what to call it either delirium or a special diso to emphasize the “bloodthirstiness” of the Soviet authorities, which often planted a wife with her husband. Only here again - they didn’t plant it in vain, so it was for what. Well, allow your lies to correct.
    Grokhovsky’s wife did not sit for 15 years as a killer, as you write, she was simply deported to another city, where she lived 14 until 1956.

    Grokhovsky’s wife did not sit “like a killer,” do not turn my words over, but more than any killer, although she did nothing and was completely rehabilitated by the Soviet court.
    And it was she who was sitting, not serving the link, at least I have just such information gathered here, for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D1%80%D0%BE%
    D1%85%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9,_%D0%9F
    %D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BB_%D0%98%D0%B3%D0%BD%D0%B0
    %D1%82%D1%8C%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87

    If you have another - give a link, if not, then I remind you that lying is not good, dishonest!

    Do not seek decency from those who cannot have it. They are for the world revolution that you want to say and do anything. Well, this is the Communist Leninists, they have the same class consciousness ...
    1. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene April 9 2018 23: 43
      0
      Quote: kalibr
      Do not seek decency from those who cannot have it.

      Well, who would talk about decency, in my opinion, I have devoted quite a few comments to this topic here, if for someone unconvincing, then let them visit the site by reference.
      http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=
      3196
  17. kalibr
    kalibr April 9 2018 22: 16
    +1
    Quote: your1970
    If they happened (on their territory) - WWI - Civilian - WWII - I think that they would be in about the same position - as we are now
    Reply Quote Complaint your 1970

    Would history not know. They have 130000. We have more than 800000 people, and millions sitting.
    1. your1970
      your1970 April 10 2018 07: 46
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      Quote: your1970
      If they happened (on their territory) - WWI - Civilian - WWII - I think that they would be in about the same position - as we are now
      Reply Quote Complaint your 1970

      Would history not know. They have 130000. We have more than 800000 people, and millions sitting.

      I agree - does not know. Only now no one forbids to analyze ....
      They are based on the results of their Civil War (the century before last !! 160 years have passed) - to still use some villains and scoundrels Confederate flag- like label: here they are rascals, atu them!
      and there died 134 (on both sides) ... either a million or two died from our common flu ("Spanish woman") in our Civil
      Nevertheless, the Confederate is an enemy, a traitor, a traitor
      I am sure that if they had had that crisis of the beginning of the 20th century (like ours) - with the breakdown of the state, redistribution of property, separation of families - they would not have stopped enemies of the people at our level.
      And the Japanese are witnesses to this - when they are without any "triples, CCA and other Gulagovschina", without any minimum judicial action - according to the stamp "POSSIBLE an accomplice of the enemy "- bang to the camp ..... and for a long time .... and even without determining the term of departure - this is not a punishment, but a preventive measure - sit, jap, behind a thorn !!!
  18. Whispering in the night
    Whispering in the night April 10 2018 08: 56
    0
    Quote: Alexander Green

    No need to shame me, I am responsible for each of my words, unlike you, before I write something, I shovel a mountain of information. And you read what Wikipedia slipped to you, and believe it, and do not even think that this could be the most common misinformation.
    So let's measure whose informationIa cooler.
    Nobody has recognized your Wikipedia for a reliable source for a long time, one hundredth percent of the truth is there - only when some event happened, and that is not a fact.
    For your statements on Grokhovsky’s wife, read my source, this is a discussion of the research data by local historians and historians.

    Well, and how your source differs from mine, the information is from the only person, a certain forum participant Nadezhda Novikova. There is not a single evidence in her text, just two dry lines why I should believe this person more than, say, the well-known writer Gennady Chernenko, who directly writes that Grokhovsky’s wife was sitting behind barbed wire (https://bessmertnybarak.ru / article / konstruktor_g
    rokhovskii /) or a biographical sketch from this portal, I quote:
    "At the beginning of 1943, his wife was arrested, who spent many years behind barbed wire. His daughter, with the symbolic name Avia, was left in military Moscow alone and she had to go to work at the factory at age 13."
    http://archivsf.narod.ru/1899/pavel_grohovsky/ind
    ex.htm

    And here it is described how the drawings of the aircraft were sold.

    Don’t write to me about a certain “sale of airplane drawings”, you know, I trust the final court decisions more than the initial accusations of Stalin's justice and all kinds of Internet propaganda, and the court in the case of Grokhovsky and his wife put an end to it. Innocent!

    And, by the way, if you already refer to the opinion of this Nadezhda Novikova regarding Grokhovsky’s wife, then do not forget to mention her words in the same text regarding Grokhovsky himself, I quote - "In 1942, Pavel Ignatievich on false charges was arrested. "
    1. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene April 10 2018 18: 30
      0
      Quote: Whispering in the night
      "At the beginning of 1943 his wife was also arrested, who spent many years behind barbed wire. His daughter, with the symbolic name Avia, was left in military Moscow alone and at the age of 13 she had to go to work at the factory."

      And do you believe that? Believe that the NKVD, having arrested the mother, did not send the minor daughter to the orphanage? Well: blessed is he who believes. Go on.
      1. Whispering in the night
        Whispering in the night April 10 2018 22: 40
        0
        Quote: Alexander Green

        And do you believe that? Believe that the NKVD, having arrested the mother, did not send the minor daughter to the orphanage? Well: blessed is he who believes. Go on.

        We don’t know the details, maybe she and some relatives remained, grandmothers, grandfathers, uncles, aunts, etc. In the end, the famous writer, I think, knows what he is writing about.

        And, in any case, I repeat whether Grokhovsky’s wife spent 15 years in the camp or was serving a link - she was punished for nothing, simply because she was the so-called CSIR ("a member of the traitorous homeland family"). Here is another completely vile and disgusting creation of Stalinist justice!
        1. Alexander Greene
          Alexander Greene April 11 2018 00: 15
          +3
          Quote: Whispering in the night
          ... maybe she stayed with some relatives, grandparents, uncles, aunts, etc. In the end, the famous writer, I think, knows what he is writing about.
          And, in any case, I repeat whether Grokhovsky’s wife was in the camp for 15 years or was serving a link - she was punished for nothing, just because she was the so-called CSIR

          Firstly, modern famous writers can be mistaken and even lie openly, moreover, in those days left without parents, children and especially from families of enemies of the people were sent to orphanages in order to raise a Soviet person.
          Secondly, “Husband and wife are one Satan,” all the wives are in the know about husband affairs, and even more so if Grokhovsky has lost something from the sale of plane drawings.
          Thirdly, it was a warning to traitors to the Homeland that their relatives would be responsible for treason. I think that this measure has stopped more than one pest.
          1. Whispering in the night
            Whispering in the night April 11 2018 08: 12
            0
            Quote: Alexander Green

            Firstly, modern famous writers can make mistakes and even openly lie

            Everyone can make mistakes, lie and just use unverified information, both writers and ordinary citizens, including from forums. Therefore, I write that there is no clear evidence regarding the fate of Grokhovsky’s wife, either sitting, or living in exile, 50 to 50.

            Secondly, “Husband and wife are one Satan,” all the wives are in the know about husband affairs, and even more so if Grokhovsky has lost something from the sale of plane drawings.
            Thirdly, it was a warning to traitors to the Homeland that their relatives would be responsible for treason. I think that this measure has stopped more than one pest.

            This is strong, of course! You are not guilty because you are guilty, but only because "husband and wife are one Satan." Well, let's begin to plant the wives of murderers, rapists, robbers, thieves, swindlers, send half the country for barbed wire, and their children to the orphanage, and not only wives, but also brothers, sisters, parents, cousins, etc.? However, the Stalinists did it all the time, so these gangsters from the high road should no longer be allowed to take a cannon shot to power!

            And I’ll remind you again, because I see that you won’t calm down in any way - Grokhovsky was innocent, this is a court decision, completely rehabilitated, that's all, period! Stop here publicly insulting an innocent worthy person, a patriot of his people and his homeland!
            1. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene April 11 2018 17: 53
              0
              Quote: Whispering in the night
              And I’ll remind you again, because I see that you won’t calm down in any way - Grokhovsky was innocent, this is a court decision, completely rehabilitated, that's all, period! Stop here publicly insulting an innocent worthy person, a patriot of his people and his homeland!

              Dear, slow down, I do not insult anyone, I just do not believe in his innocence. The fact of the sale of documentation for a new aircraft at his institute, and according to him, he personally oversaw this project, exists. And as for the justice of the rehabilitation of the Khrushchev courts, I also do not believe.
              For example, in 1933-1934. for embezzlement for 10 years, several directors of industrial enterprises were imprisoned, in addition, they delayed workers' wages for 4-6 months. In 1956 they were rehabilitated. I believe. what is wrong.
              1. Whispering in the night
                Whispering in the night April 11 2018 23: 33
                0
                Quote: Alexander Green

                I do not insult anyone, I just do not believe in his innocence. The fact of the sale of documentation for a new aircraft at his institute, and according to him, he personally oversaw this project, exists. And as for the justice of the rehabilitation of the Khrushchev courts, I also do not believe.

                So write about Grokhovsky - "in my opinion a traitor to the homeland ", not a traitor to the homeland as a supposedly proven fact!
                1. Alexander Greene
                  Alexander Greene April 12 2018 02: 02
                  +1
                  Quote: Whispering in the night
                  So, just write about Grokhovsky - “in my opinion, a traitor to the Motherland”, and not a traitor to the Motherland as, allegedly, a proven fact!

                  Dear, slow down, do not teach me how to write.
                  1. Whispering in the night
                    Whispering in the night April 12 2018 15: 04
                    0
                    Quote: Alexander Green

                    Dear, slow down, do not teach me how to write.

                    It is you who are slowing down and stop insulting innocent people with your inventions. Moreover, outstanding people, the pride of the nation, like the same Grokhovsky for example! In the end, we have an article in the criminal code for defamation ...
                    1. Alexander Greene
                      Alexander Greene April 12 2018 19: 07
                      0
                      Quote: Whispering in the night
                      It is you who are slowing down and stop insulting innocent people with your inventions. Moreover, outstanding people, the pride of the nation, like the same Grokhovsky for example!

                      I do not insult, do not slander, I write what is written about him in the open press. You can check the links. which I brought.
  19. Whispering in the night
    Whispering in the night April 10 2018 09: 01
    0
    Quote: kalibr

    Do not seek decency from those who cannot have it. They are for the world revolution that you want to say and do anything. Well, this is the Communist Leninists, they have the same class consciousness ...

    Yes, the position of the Communists is well known - the end justifies the means. Absolutely immoral people!
    1. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene April 10 2018 18: 36
      0
      Quote: Whispering in the night
      Yes, the position of the Communists is well known - the end justifies the means. Absolutely immoral people!

      A connoisseur of the Communists, have you not yet become familiar with the moral character of your colleague? Read the comments above and follow the link there.