AEK against AK, and 5,45 against 7,62. Or at the same time?

Dual sensations and diverse thoughts evoke the latest news from the world of gunsmiths. We have already shown in the article devoted to the patrons, a fresh video from the Kalashnikov concern, dedicated to AK-15.

At the end of January of this year, it was reported that AK-12 and AK-15 passed state tests and were approved as small weapons and adopted by the Ministry of Defense for service.

Fine. Automatic machines are significantly different from AK-74 for the better, more modern, have many advantages. It's really good news.

Then begin the reflections of pure water.

The part was announced in a previous article on cartridges ("7,62 mm: step forward or backward? "), The rest will be considered here.

The question arises: the presence of two machines of the same system with different caliber - it will not be too fat?

Even if the good old 7,62x39 cartridge of the 1943 model of the year allows something that its younger colleague of the 5,45 mm caliber cannot. Namely, to provide the necessary armor penetration and use of the cartridge with PBS.

But there is another cherry. Simultaneously with AK-12 and AK-15, the Ministry of Defense also adopted two automatic development machines for the Kovrov plant named after Degtyarev.

This is A-545 and A-762. About simplified models AEK-971 and AEK-973.

A total of four machines. Two caliber 5,45 mm, two 7,62 mm.

And now we come to the main question: why did the Ministry of Defense need automatic machines of different caliber and different manufacturers?

Literally two words about Kovrov machines.

To say that AEK (any number) is a long-term construction, it is nothing to say. The plant team worked on the brainchild for more than 40 years, and in the end, it nevertheless successfully completed the work. But if at the beginning of the journey AEK was superior in many TTX to its direct competitor AK-74, then today the situation is somewhat different.

What is the difference between Izhevsk and Kovrov products?

Even outwardly, they are similar. The machines of both firms are not two, but three modes of shooting: single, a turn and a short line with a cut-off of two shots. Possible attachment to the forearm any tactical utilities such as LCC, handles, flashlight. On the Picatinny rail on the cover of the receiver can be placed a sight. Folding and telescopic butts.

And of course, models of 7,62 mm caliber can use a device for silent shooting.

Again, the external (and most internal) qualities and characteristics of automata are very similar.

Different price.

Kovrov designers used a balanced automation scheme, which improved the accuracy of shooting at 15-20%. A more complex design led to a rise in price and, as an option, less reliability.

Of course, if we take AK-47 as the standard of reliability, then there is nothing to compare at all.

Nevertheless, the specialists of the Ministry of Defense were satisfied with the quality of the carpet products, once they took the machine guns into service.

Further, the Defense Ministry believes that the more expensive but accurate A-545 and A-762 will arm the special forces and attack units on a contract basis, while the AK-12 and AK-15 traditionally occupy the niche of mass weapons.

In general, everything is understood. With one single exception. Two patrons.

If the “degtyarevskimi” machine guns arm the best of the best, and the “kalashnikovskimi” everyone, then it probably will not cause a big headache. Example - "Abakan", AN-94 in BB / Rosgvardii / MVD and other structures. There is. And there are no questions for him.

But to the "Kalashnikov" and "tar" is. And one of them - how and according to what scheme will the parts be completed? Where to go 5,45-mm, and where 7,62-mm machines?

And how much will our logistical services be ready for such hemorrhoids? Not even in terms of repair, although here repbats howl. But in case of any damage, you can send to the manufacturer. Although from the Far East - it is still a pleasure in time.

And if we take into account the fact that the mess in our army is not a diagnosis, but a usual condition, then we are sure that dozens of interesting moments are provided to military suppliers.

The narrow specialization of weapons entails a wider specialization for gunsmiths, both in terms of repair and in terms of logistics. Here the question is: how ready are they for such an expansion in the troops? And are you ready at all ...

It is worth noting that our potential is different. And this is despite the fact that the United States can afford everything that they desire in terms of weapons.

However, in service mainly (army, marine corps and others) are M-16, M-4, FN SCAR, NK 416. We note a single caliber: 5,56x45 mm NATO.

Yes, there are some FN SCAR-H exemptions for 7,62 × 51 mm NATO and ACR 6.8 X43 mm Remington SPC, but these are really exceptions. The regiment of US rangers, armed with these monsters, is just a paratrooper regiment, albeit an expanded one. Let us compare it with our SSO, especially since the 75 th regiment in the United States has been assigned the functions of depth reconnaissance.

But otherwise, even the US Army is not able to afford to have two rounds for the main small arms.

How further everything that happens here will look like is very interesting. It is possible that both calibers will normally exist, perhaps, all the same, 7,62 mm will take over.

The situation, however ...

Comments

[alex-cn]

"And one of them - how and according to what scheme will the parts be completed? Where will the 5,45 mm go, and where will the 7,62 mm machine gun go?"
We have no intelligence in the army? And the requirements for its work overlap with the MTR in many ways.

[Vladimir 5]

So long ago, weapons are made with the ability to change the barrel under the desired cartridge and the desired length. Here are two samples with interchangeable trunks ..., Another opportunity to add a barrel for a more lethal 9-11 mm cartridge ... What are the design bureau doing, they are sorting out old toys, they aren’t smelling new trends, they have lost their scent ...

[Bad_gr]

In my opinion, the problem of two assault rifles adopted in service is sucked from a finger. You might think that they constantly break down and the suppliers do not know which, for example, the striker to bring to AEK or AK. Who ever saw these small arms repair shops in the Army?
As I understand it, if a soldier has a machine gun out of order, he was given a new one (AEK or AK) from the warehouse and forward to carry out the combat mission.
With calibers for the main weapon, of course, not so simple, but there are only 2, not 22 of them. Our guns have much more standards now, there wouldn’t be any confusion: 9x18, 9x19, 9x21 .....

[RaptorF22]

They need to be fenced off and sold on the domestic market, then the questions of why and why will be unnecessary and reanimate Abakan to leave a cut-off of 2 shots and also to the Chinese market Norinko and Arkam good competition to the domestic market and for export

[RaptorF22]

If arches are sold for 100, then our automatic machines can be easily sold for 150. All this can be won by the manufacturer by the fact that the sales volume will increase. The state will receive more tax deductions from sales and the consumer will support the manufacturer by choosing Concern Kalashnikov. the level of smoothbore and the term from 5 years of ownership can be reduced, say, to 1 year, in general, it's time to think about the support of their manufacturers

[Ingvar 72]

Question to the authors - how many submachine guns were in service with the Soviet army in the Second World War? The only thing I agree with is the need for a single cartridge.

[Dam]

Damn, not from a good life 2 rounds. Effective work 5,45 * 39, like NATO 223 - 300-350 meters, further only the density of fire. (I won’t talk about the pros, they have been described for a long time). The cartridge 7,62 * 39 turned out to be good for wars of low intensity (Amer Afghan, Donetsk, Syria) again, the pros and cons have long been described. In addition, in warehouses, well, it’s just n ... a lot. And it’s foolish to chop your left hand because it doesn’t look like the right one. Two calibers is correct, but the percentage of both will probably be different. Although it would be possible to work on something new, well-forgotten, for example, on a 6,5 mm caliber. But there’s another issue of finance is very important

[Operator]

Is this article for April 1?

The authors of the article, hike, do not know that the Russian army had small arms under both 7,62x54 mm and 7,62x25 mm and 7,62x39 mm, and now also under 5,45x39 mm. And nothing, the supply cope.

So who has a mess in his head?

[seti]

A mess in the head of the author.
7.62 arm for example tankers, gunners or self-propelled guns - does it make sense? They are better than 5.45. Whereas the infantry is quite 7.62. Different tasks different applications.

[Droid]

It is the infantry that needs 5,45. And 7,62x39 goes into the category of special ones, for example, scouts.

[mmaxx]

But not only that. Even for the ShKAS machine guns, a cartridge 7.62x54 was made without a rim.

[KVU-NSVD]

While there is no data on the number of purchased machines, disaggregated by manufacturer and caliber, it is not worth making conclusions. I think that the bulk of purchases will be in Kalash 5.45 for the army. The rest of the purchases will be small in comparison with this and there will be no logistic jams nationwide. And all sorts of different special forces are free to choose for themselves what is more convenient for them - the scope of application is not the same as to speak in this case of wastefulness and hemorrhoids of supply ..

[Engineer]

However, in service mainly (army, marine corps and others) are M-16, M-4, FN SCAR, NK 416. We note a single caliber: 5,56x45 mm NATO.

Where did you see the corps, units or platoons without machine guns, manual. And this is the NATO 7,62 × 51 mm cartridge - which you consider to be an exception for some reason. So what is the problem for the supply, if this cartridge is already necessary and even in large quantities? We have a huge amount of 7,62mm cartridges in stock. My brother serves in the National Guard (the Ministry of Internal Affairs was taken out) in guarding the object of the atomic bomb. In regular training at shooting ranges, he often shoots from AKM and Makarov, older than him! And the cartridge is also produced if they did not know. And about two machine guns for the army - this is from hopelessness: both machine guns of the Moscow Region did not work, but Rostec factories must be loaded with work, and the army should be re-equipped with what is.

[Operator]

The trick is that there will be no significant quantities of either AK-15 or AEK in either one of the other calibers - the increase in the firing efficiency of these automatic machines is scanty compared to the increase in price.

We need a new cartridge-weapon system of the type 7,62x54 / three-ruler, 7,62x39 / AK-47, 5,56x45 / AR and 5,45x39 / AK-74.

Otherwise, all "Abakan contests" are transfusions from empty to empty.

[NEXUS]

Quote: Operator

Need a new cartridge-weapon system

First of all, before all that you said, you need new high-quality gunpowder.

[Dam]

But what did the Sunar not work for? For gross cartridge more than. I shoot them with precision. No worse than Whirlwind, if you had not walked from party to party

[VictorZhivilov]

Quote: NEXUS

Quote: Operator

Need a new cartridge-weapon system

First of all, before all that you said, you need new high-quality gunpowder.

And, an even more effective system has sunk powder.

[Wilderness]

Here about the prevailing opinion about the titanic stocks of old cartridges are haunted by vague doubts. I did not see these depots, but I remember for sure that if in the early 90s Soviet pistol cartridges (with a brass sleeve) were still burning at the shooting range, then in the late 90s they were only green, judging by the marking of 4-5 years of age. Aren't the old consignments shipped first of all?

[Glory1974]

Aren't the old consignments shipped first of all?

As a rule, they are shipped in order to update stocks. But there are parties that lie and then destroy them, because they did not manage to use them in peacetime.

[KP8789]

The authors do not correctly understand what it means to adopt. This does not mean that military units will be equipped with different models. The main will be only the AK-12, all other models are optional for special forces. Moreover, it is necessary to develop automatic machines in the caliber of a potential adversary for “specialists” based on new models, as was the case in the hundredth series of AKs.
But even the AK-12 is likely in the near future will not become a mass machine gun. There are millions of AK-74s in warehouses for which a modernization kit has been developed, and AK-74 in the new "clothes" with a high degree of probability for a long time will be the main machine of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation.

[Egor-dis]

The narrow specialization of weapons entails a wider specialization for gunsmiths both in terms of repair and in terms of logistics.

increasing the staff of gunsmiths (or expanding the specialization of existing ones) is not a big price to provide the army with a high-quality "tool"

And one of them - how and according to what scheme will the parts be completed? Where will the 5,45 mm go, and where the 7,62 mm machine guns?

for this, it is enough to remember why each of the calibers was made, what their advantages and disadvantages are, and it will immediately become clear which caliber will go where.
Russia is a large country, with various climatic zones, natural conditions and the nature of the terrain that must be taken into account for the conduct of hostilities. And the need to defend national interests outside of Russia even more expands the range of factors affecting efficiency. Driving the devils through the mountains of the Caucasus or through the tundra or the Syrian desert is not the same as combing through urban buildings. About targeted special operations in general, a separate conversation. So, yes, all sorts of calibers are needed, all sorts of calibers are important.

It is worth noting that our potential is different. And this is despite the fact that the United States can afford everything that they desire in terms of weapons.

A rather controversial statement. In this particular case, it’s rather the other way around.

However, in service mainly (army, marine corps and others) are M-16, M-4, FN SCAR, NK 416. We note a single caliber: 5,56x45 mm NATO.

And they, almost in full force, howl from a lack of a cartridge and weapons of a larger caliber, but they can do nothing. Because the commercial component in providing the army is put much higher than combat effectiveness. And so, to take, and by someone’s sole decision, to put under the knife production and commercial groups that are mastering the 600-billion-dollar budget, no one will.

[Aqela]

Especially wonderful about the commercial component For some reason, many experts are deeply convinced that purely pragma drives army procurement Whereas the Vasya-Vasya principle shows soy ears much more often

[erased]

According to the representative of KK - AEK will be produced in small batches to maintain the plant and the design team.
The media cannot be trusted, because articles are often written by amateurs who do not understand anything and cannot count.
AK-12 goes to the infantry, tankers, missile and others. And also it seems to be the Airborne Forces, Marines. Although they can go and AK-15. Different types of special forces will receive AK-12 or AK-15. And to whom then AEK?
Everything rests on the arms lobby, the interests of various owners of military enterprises and those who trade weapons.
On cartridges. 7,62x39 requires modernization. Although 7Н23 is not bad, but it can be done better. and accuracy and penetration. There are also options 5,45 - 7H39 and 7H40.
The farther, the more advanced bulletproof vests will become. 5,45 as well as 5,56 will no longer be able to work against them. Although armor only protects the body, legs, neck, and head are less protected. But the soldier will not be forced to work only on his limbs. So 7,62 will get an advantage here. Though. if it goes on like this, it will reach 7,62 but already in the rifle type
One thing is clear - a large assortment of weapons and ammunition in the army is unacceptable. As in the internal troops.
But it’s also unacceptable - different types of vehicles, including armored, tanks, helicopters, airplanes and equipment in general. The war showed that a large assortment always threatens problems and extra costs.
But since when does common sense rule in Russia ?!

[Droid]

Quote: erased

The farther, the more advanced bulletproof vests will become. 5,45 as well as 5,56 will no longer be able to work against them.

5,45 bulletproof vests.

Quote: erased

Although armor only protects the hull

This is not so, the armor plate protects only part of the hull, and specifically 10-12% of the total area of ​​the running figure.

Quote: erased

But the soldier will not be forced to work only on his limbs.

Even without this, ~ 60% of hits are laid in the limbs.

Quote: erased

So 7,62 will get an advantage here.

It will receive 5,45 and has already gained an advantage. Because it falls 1,5 times more often.

[Yrec]

While in the warehouses the sea of ​​cartridges 7,62x39 and the production line of cartridges are not depreciated, weapons will be armed with this cartridge. And there it will be seen.

[svp67]

AEK against AK, and 5,45 against 7,62. Or at the same time?

Not at the same time, but JOINTLY.

However, in service mainly (army, marine corps and others) are M-16, M-4, FN SCAR, NK 416. We note a single caliber: 5,56x45 mm NATO.

Each hut has its own toys, especially in the American one, where the situation with such “shooting toys” is much easier. And something on the list I did not find a VERY FAVORITE “mariner” M110 SASS chambered for 7,62 × 51 mm NATO

And in the platoon, the same "mariners" when sent on a "business trip" at the same time may be ...
5,56 mm M4A1.


7,62 mm M240V

5,56 mm M249

M40A5 sniper. 7.62x51

7,62 mm KAC Mk11

7,62 mm M39 EMR

They have plenty to choose from ...
They have equipment
Manual and easel machine guns - 4 different models
Assault rifles and carbines - 4 different models
Sniper rifles - 6 different models
Submachine guns - 1 model
Smoothbore guns and shotguns (which we don’t have and seem not to be expected) - 4 models
Pistols - 3 models
And it is OFFICIALLY accepted for service and equipment.

[realist]

the issue is not the number of types of small arms, but why create difficulties in supplying parts of ammunition of different calibers. America has 24 types of dry rations going to the troops to satisfy the demands of both Mexicans and Jews and Muslims - this is still a task for the rear! but these are their problems, why do we need two calibers for army small arms!?

[svp67]

Quote: realist

why do we need two calibers for army small arms!

For a more effective solution to specific problems. Moreover, since we have not two calibers, but several more ... at times

[realist]

probably each task has its own ideal tool, but is it worth the candle? at my construction site, for example, all shovels and trowels are the same, although different tasks are solved with the same tool with different efficiency :)

[Aqela]

I don’t know how it was with the little pebbles, but with a good carpenter, much less a carpenter, a train of various kinds. You know how many types of planer you know, except for the plane and the jointer itself? By the way, the frequency response, trowels and shovels are also different, and for a neat brick drive in place it is better to have a ground one, for a mason, not a carpentry ax ... In addition, the experience of not only military work, but also of any production suggests that a universal tool has only one plus - universality, but a special tool is much more effective. For example, compare the multitool and the set of tools, well, at least a professional electrician ... Yes, there are even several types of soldering irons and wire cutters, and the electrical tape is better to have different colors for marking ... By the way, bullets for cartridges 4,45x39 also happen for some reason, different ... This is, damn it, what a problem for suppliers! These “boots” brought such a good box of ordinary cartridges, and they, pymash, needed armor-piercing!

[realist]

At the construction site, the carpenter solves other tasks, not making something complicated and unique, but simple tasks: put a box in the opening, hang the door. I fully agree that a special tool is better than a universal one, but on the battlefield (at a cost of 40000 rounds per 1 killed ) what's the difference than creating a density of fire? talked with the guys who served in the Caucasus, one served as a sniper, said that 90% of the time he sat in an ambush for one shot (sat for several days), the second served in a motorized infantry - he didn’t see the enemy in battle, hid behind stones and trees and didn’t shoot towards the enemy. In this situation, do you need different 5.45 x39 rounds of ammunition (you probably have a typo of 4,45x39)? It seems to me that this caliber is generally meaningless - the amazing ability is small! Americans complain, consumption is large, and efficiency is small. masons have their own masons, special. not like carpenters.

[K.Shimada]

Question on A-545 and A-762.
Previously, I read / looked on the youtube channel that the AEK-971 has a problem - after about 2000 it wedges due to the connecting stud connecting the balancing system.
Is this problem resolved in the above samples?

[raw174]

I don’t really understand the author’s perplexity ...
As I understand it, in production both 5.45 and 7.62 are equally costly, the repair should not cause problems either, the components and elements are the same, the difference is in the barrel and the ejector ... or am I wrong? And to whom they will also figure out which cartridge, depending on the tasks ... For mobile parts, patrols, patrols, patrols, reconnaissance, we need to increase the ammunition load, 5.45 is reasonable ... For border guards, the AK store generally has a control hole on the 25th cartridge to reduce they carry less ammunition, that’s how important this is, if you give them 7.62, they’re 15 each. they will equip ... And those who are in transport can afford a couple of extra pounds, in exchange for an increase in breaking power ...

[Aqela]

I didn’t serve in the “border guards”, my friends served, but, as far as I know, the incomplete store is not at all for saving weight (which, to the best, is saving if, for example, 120 rounds are to be shipped in 30 pieces in 4 stores, or 20 pcs. in 6 stores - the "extra" 2 stores also weigh quite a bit for themselves, saving weight doesn’t work out either ... and there aren’t too many rounds ) The reliability of the cartridge feed spring is improved, it does not “upset”. For "border guards" the work in patrols and secrets is characteristic, i.e. prolonged harboring or waiting can be replaced suddenly by the need for a short but energetic fire “contact”. The need for reliability is critically great. You can sacrifice a fraction of the number of rounds.

[Glory1974]

Currently in the special forces and intelligence armed with a bunch of weapons. In the weapons storage room, not only AK-74 and AKM, but submachine guns, special weapons, and all under a different cartridge. Not to mention those who have any imported weapons for various tasks. And for the mass army, of course, it is desirable to have uniformity. In peacetime or in local conflict, there are no particular problems.
But in general, the effectiveness of the application will depend on the organization of the supply of ammunition, this is true.

[Sobol]

And I have such a question. How these picatinny bars on the bare palm, with active shooting, affect. I understand that gloves and all that, but life is sometimes more bizarre than fiction and gloves at the most crucial moment may not be on hand, but you need to shoot. Once, while working on a construction site, he used scrap metal from periodic fittings - a pleasure so-so, even through construction gloves. The skin with palms got off!

[Wilderness]

Most likely these straps are wrapped with rags and everything will be fine))). The only benefit from them in practice: if you sharpen them on the sides, then you can automatically cut trees (like a two-handed saw).

[Aqela]

Quote: Wilderness

Most likely these straps are wrapped with rags and everything will be fine))). The only benefit from them in practice: if you sharpen them on the sides, then you can automatically cut trees (like a two-handed saw).

You can still rake blades of grass on the parapet of the trench from the shelling sector of the tuda-syuda

[Fox]

Quote: SoboL

And I have such a question. Like these picatinny bars on your bare palm

There are special plugs on them (plastic or rubber), but they are not always issued ... they are lost.

[Strashila]

trims are money ... and possible non-conveniences that can be overcome ... the same with the help of money ... extra overlays on trims ... our managers are increasingly adopting the western approach ... imposing unclaimed options.

[Aqela]

And then! After all everyone knowsthat, for example, collimator sights never break, the power source does not sit in them, they do not cling to branches, work well in any lighting conditions, ambient background and at any distance ...

[Strashila]

“Kovrov’s designers used a balanced automation scheme, which improved the accuracy of fire by 15-20%. A more complex design entailed a rise in price and, as an option, less reliability." ... the basis of any weapon is the barrel-cartridge scheme, it is fundamental. .. if they match, then the result will be ... but if not then not. Obtaining 15-20% accuracy is possible with an ordinary selection of trunks for quality, the same can be attributed to cartridges., But if the shooter is curved and cross-eyed, all this will come to naught ... analyze the preparation method, make corrections and it will increase the same accuracy of the use of weapons.

[Aqela]

As popular wisdom says: Technique in the hands of a savage - a pile of scrap metal! ChSH, curvature, and even more so handshake, is not corrected by any level

[the47th]

At 7,62x39 the backward action is stronger. If the enemy sat down even behind a passenger car, in body armor, then a 5,45 mm automatic machine with a high degree of probability would do nothing to him. And 7,62 mm will make it very painful. Here is the proof:

[realist]

not surprised by anything 7.62 has a greater breakdown ability than 5.45, but pleased - the girl is fit!

[Aqela]

Well, in our yard there are a lot of beautiful girls. Much prettier. So, average appearance. But the ability to confidently operate the "arch" is rare. And after all he’ve planted like that ...

[bone1]

Thanks for the video, I have long been looking for the shooting of a car from a rifled weapon. But, it seems to me that this is a montage: the camera stands strictly for the car, who puts it that way? if they get into it and ruin the experience, and it’s a pity it was normal to put the camera at an angle (not on the shooting line) —that would not affect the shooting; there is no obstacle behind the target, but if they shoot someone? who shoots like that ?; for auto sheets from some white crap, why?

[Aqela]

At present, I think a simple camcorder costs less than zinc cartridges. I won’t be surprised if the delivery of the body of an old car to a shooting position cost more than a video camera.

[groks]

Something recently, authors have expressed concern about strange issues. Which besides them do not bother anyone. However, the authors do not offer anything. And do not even give an assessment of what is happening. Articles for the sake of the articles themselves?

[Aqela]

With all due respect to the authors of the publication, I agree with this remark 100%
How's the classic? "Touching everything lightly with ... the view of an expert"

[DimerVladimer]

Nothing that we have in the army's supplies are a variety of ammunition for small arms:
7.62x54 for example 7N1 - sniper cartridge, T-46 / T-46M tracer, 57-X-340 - blank cartridge, LPS, index 57-N-323C, cartridge with armor-piercing incendiary bullet 7,62 B-32, etc. P.

Logistics somehow copes.
Somehow they will cope with the 7.62x39 nomenclature.

[Aqela]

Above, I wrote about the same ShKAS cartridge is not enough to heap lightweight and with reinforced fastening in the sleeve

[Sedoy]

some crap, not an article ...
it was necessary to write something, "poked in the nose and smeared on paper" ... piled ...

[voyaka uh]

Hidden criticism of Degtyarev, in favor of the Kalashnikov plant, all things. The discussion of calibers is camouflage.
It is hinted that Degtyarev will be "harmful" to the army. Allegedly due to the two calibers of the cartridge.
When Degtyarev enters the army, contract soldiers will no longer want Kalashnikov. And there will be more and more contractors. Kalashnikists are afraid of this.

[yehat]

yes what a hidden - just poke your nose from time to time
“AEK is more expensive,” “dedicated to the AK-15,” “the situation has changed,” etc.

[tat_shurik]

I do not see any problems. the SA somehow supplied 5,45 soldiers and machine gunners with a PKK of 7,62 rounds. in the same platoon. Perhaps now, in addition to the machine gunners, there will be a platoon of several people in the squads with a "heavy" caliber with the same cartridge as the machine gunners. What is the difficulty for logistics? What is a little more rounds of ammunition needed in the infantry of 7,62 caliber? so they were served anyway ...

[Droid]

What are you talking about? If you are not in the know then I inform you that together with AK74 RPK74 was developed and machine gunners with a machine gun fired a 5,45 mm cartridge.

[Aqela]

But you also need to bring grenades ... And the IRP ... And the footcloths ... And the first-aid kits ... And all sorts of different things ... And the suppliers are not aware of all this at all! They were all taught in vain in the schools of the rear troops ...

[Styx okeanos]

MAIN CARTRIDGE (CALIBER) OF THE WORLD-NATO-USA-7,62X51-MM
The main personnel samples of the World Infantry are FN FAL (120 countries) G-3 (64 countries) M-14-21 USA and Elite samples of Switzerland, Italy, Austria ..
5,56 mm caliber has always been used in auxiliary troops and samples under this cartridge
Among other things - The weight of a bullet in relation to the weight of a game increases the fatal result - Caliber 5,56 - The product of the "Humanitarian" approach after the war period. The task of such a cartridge (Bullets) is "Take Out of Action" Whereas the NATO-T65 cartridge = 7,62x51 with a muzzle energy of 3200 Joules - KILLS. Intermediate cartridge 7,62x39. At least in terms of muzzle energy somewhere approaches the strength of the 5,56x45 cartridge ... The 5,45 cartridge-caliber cannot at all relate to a live cartridge ..
The idiocy of this cartridge is actually a change in the motherland, and if someone, after many decades, decided to restore essentially the AK-47-Patron 7,62, this is fine, although this is a pathetic attempt to at least somehow resist the muzzle power of ANY foot soldier of the world who will be armed with M- 14, ZIG AM, FN FAL, G-3

[RaptorF22]

308 is a good caliber, but you can’t shoot a lot from it. The ballistics are very good and the lethal qualities are also on top.

[KP8789]

Styx okeanos
MAIN CARTRIDGE (CALIBER) OF THE WORLD-NATO-USA-7,62X51-MM
The main personnel samples of the World Infantry are FN FAL (120 countries) G-3 (64 countries) M-14-21 USA and Elite samples of Switzerland, Italy, Austria ..
5,56 mm caliber has always been used in auxiliary troops and samples under this cartridge
Among other things - The weight of a bullet in relation to the weight of a game increases the fatal result - Caliber 5,56 - The product of the "Humanitarian" approach after the war period. The task of such a cartridge (Bullets) is "Take Out of Action" Whereas the NATO-T65 cartridge = 7,62x51 with a muzzle energy of 3200 Joules - KILLS. Intermediate cartridge 7,62x39. At least in terms of muzzle energy somewhere approaches the strength of the 5,56x45 cartridge ... The 5,45 cartridge-caliber cannot at all relate to a live cartridge ..
The idiocy of this cartridge is actually a change in the motherland, and if someone, after many decades, decided to restore essentially the AK-47-Patron 7,62, this is fine, although this is a pathetic attempt to at least somehow resist the muzzle power of ANY foot soldier of the world who will be armed with M- 14, ZIG AM, FN FAL, G-3

With your knowledge in the field of small arms and ammunition in the Murzilka magazine, and here is a serious site.

[Droid]

Quote: Styx Okeanos

IDIOTISM OF THIS PATRON ACTUALLY CHANGE OF THE HOMELAND

Your idiocy is just idiocy, without any betrayal. Do not understand the question, do not write.

[bunta]

Quote: Styx Okeanos

IDIOTISM OF THIS PATRON ACTUALLY CHANGE OF THE HOMELAND

Corbine Detected You can immediately ban.

[Aqela]

Quote: Styx Okeanos

MAIN CARTRIDGE (CALIBER) OF THE WORLD-NATO-USA-7,62X51-MM
The main personnel samples of the World Infantry are FN FAL (120 countries) G-3 (64 countries) M-14-21 USA and Elite samples of Switzerland, Italy, Austria ..
5,56 mm caliber has always been used in auxiliary troops and samples under this cartridge
Among other things - The weight of a bullet in relation to the weight of a game increases the fatal result - Caliber 5,56 - The product of the "Humanitarian" approach after the war period. The task of such a cartridge (Bullets) is "Take Out of Action" Whereas the NATO-T65 cartridge = 7,62x51 with a muzzle energy of 3200 Joules - KILLS. Intermediate cartridge 7,62x39. At least in terms of muzzle energy somewhere approaches the strength of the 5,56x45 cartridge ... The 5,45 cartridge-caliber cannot at all relate to a live cartridge ..
The idiocy of this cartridge is actually a change in the motherland, and if someone, after many decades, decided to restore essentially the AK-47-Patron 7,62, this is fine, although this is a pathetic attempt to at least somehow resist the muzzle power of ANY foot soldier of the world who will be armed with M- 14, ZIG AM, FN FAL, G-3

The level of reasoning is impressive! Senior kindergarten group! They taught to read, but to think - it is very. One expression ACTUALLY CHANGE OF THE HOMELAND what is it worth. In fact, the homeland cannot change, in fact. It happens, ChSH, "treason Homeland"
In addition, secondly, the list of the number of countries that have weapons under the cartridge 7,62x51 does not cost the guns used in the text. The same G-3 in many countries has been removed from service and replaced, which is typical, with 5,56x45 systems ... Take the same Germany or Canada. In the United States, the M-14 has long been out of service. The amount used to remake snipers is not at all millions.
Third, the armament of "any foot soldier in the world" Zig-ohm - generally a song. For the same money you can probably buy a box with M-16 / AR-15 And to the question of how to arm a group of privates instead of one infantryman, the very same Israel answered itself. The bulk of the infantrymen runs with the M-16 in exchange for a very good Galil ...
How did Bulgakov write there? "Congratulations ... lied!"

[Dark_Filin]

1. What is the mess in the current army? Yes, 90, zero - there was an ass with the rear service. But now, in my opinion, the situation has changed a lot.
2. I don’t understand the problems with the repair - what is the problem of having 3 additional parts box? Moreover, in machines the maximum unification, which means the vast majority of parts are the same.
3. Who said that 7,62 will be used in the army at all? It is quite possible that adoption is a marketing move to increase sales to other states that, when buying any weapon, pay close attention to such moments.

[RaptorF22]

Better to the civilian market, why do we need export? If we ourselves can create good conditions for sales that we will not support our manufacturer? You just need to adjust the laws in the direction of creating comfortable conditions for our buyer and manufacturer

[uncle Kolya]

ak 12 from the category of vests for a carrier, an idea is needed, but essentially washing the dough for a special machine for itself will collect and collect, and if it happens that the conscript does not care 74 or 12

[Catfish]

Quote: RaptorF22n

Better to the civilian market, why do we need export? If we ourselves can create good conditions for sales that we will not support our manufacturer? You just need to adjust the laws in the direction of creating comfortable conditions for our buyer and manufacturer

Your lips ... We are all happy, but who will sell us a machine? As in that joke: "He is zyist, so he must be given." Thank you for not taking away what we have so far.

[RaptorF22]

Weird weapons policy in our country is all for export and let your market falter? A friend wants to buy an M4 Norinka for 100 when I asked why? He likes it, but if Aek Abakany fenced off us, then I’m sure he would have taken our machines and everything, then you need to have a desire to make money from our companies and the money will go crazy to them, do they really not understand this? Or are they so rich that they quietly ignore the demands of the internal buyer? All for export and for export, it cannot but upset

[slavaseven]

Or are they so rich that they quietly ignore internal customer requests

so the holders of these and many other companies and corporations will live longer =)

[gray steel]

the main reasons for the adoption of weapons at the time under the cartridge 5.45 two
1- flat path of the cartridge in the initial segment of the path
2- its weight i.e. bk to AK47 -120 rounds and to AK74 (with the same weight) 200.
and as a result, an increase in firepower, not to mention the fact that the more powerful -7.62 cartridge leaves a lot of wounded animals due to through wounds. after ami trials in Vietnam the M16, the main leitmotif of all reviews of her was her stopping ability and terrible lacerations on corpses. which rather characterized the cartridge itself 5.65 than a rifle

[would]

I can only support wounds, not in a word, but as it is commonly called a "proof". This is a screenshot from the Atlas of Gunshot Wounds - 1986 of the USSR Ministry of Defense, signature stamp "For official use".



Draw your own conclusions

[Aqela]

Well done! Very true quote! I, during the VMP had to deal with the same info. And the guys who fought in the 80s and 90s used to say the same thing. A 5-mm bullet at high speed (range up to 400-500 m) in soft tissues leaves a contusion zone up to 5 cm in diameter. The hole seems to be small, and then, already in the hospital, a piece of rotting dying meat falls out ... By the way, for subsonic bullets are not typical. So they die from a shotgun in place, and from "humane bullets" to hospitals. Estimate on your carcass. 5 cm in diameter covers a good quarter of the liver, a third of the thigh, half-heart, forearm - completely. Those. if it enters the hand or forearm, to amputate the hand over the joint (the so-called exarticulation, if that) will have a high probability.

[would]

I agree about getting into the brush, amputation may be required, but about the forearm, no. The forearm is physiologically very simple, consists of two bones and is quite large. Even with a severe gunshot fracture with many fragments, using modern technologies, you can not only save the limb, but also prevent it from severely shortening.

As early as WWII, the techniques used in field hospitals made it possible to maintain the leg when a bullet from a rifle hit the thigh bone. Yes, the foot was very much shortened, and the function was not restored, but it was not amputated.

[Valery Saitov]

A strange analysis. And what about PCMs and other machine guns of a caliber of 7,62? Or do they not have to be taken into account separately in terms of repairs and cartridges. On the construction of any house you need about 30-40 types of materials and something not a single supplier (and even a private trader) If it’s foundation, then sand, reinforcement, formwork, concrete, etc. And then suddenly get confused in 2 calibers? Ha ha ha. For automatic identification, you only need to mark 7,62 with large characters on the machines 5,45 (I think of this will come up with).

[DimanC]

Authors, do you still think that the AK-47 was adopted by the Soviet Army?

[Aqela]

Ну "experts got bogged down"! It happens to everyone! Well, for all the depths of specific erudition, they do not distinguish between an experienced intermediate sample and a standard adopted for arming based on the results of tests and refinements! They, probably, and A-20 - T-32 - T-34 for one tank take!

[realist]

Of course, the arms lobby plays a huge role, so either the army decides what to fight with it (7.62 or something else) and places orders, or takes advantage of the fact that it was cunning producers who could blow it in and solve complex supply problems. I'm wondering why they put into service trucks with diesel engines with the "Komon Rail" system, this is a crime! who will serve them in the army? and what will happen to the microprocessors of the control system when exposed to EMP? or something I don’t understand and am completely behind the times, or are they now interested in the issue of survivability of technology in the army?

[RaptorF22]

Do we have a gun lobby? If we really had it, then we had already implemented a cop for self-defense of small things under a smooth-bore license. Opening a large number of shooting ranges. What are the prospects for development in our country, but we simply don’t have any campaigns, but they have more than enough hoplophobes and the people are wild and marginal mentality and other horrors and then wonder why everything is exported

[VictorZhivilov]

After the phrase:

and then we wonder why everything is exported

began to frantically applaud.
And, the worst thing ... people are also exporting ... to learn a ready-made specialist ... and export. We are losing people ... that’s not forgivable.

[RaptorF22]

Yes, this is sad so why not pay attention to the people who are responsible for the development of the civilian market in our country? Or at least our arms companies demand is huge, the volume of sales will be stably high, it remains only to decide to make money in our country

[Aqela]

With this policy of selling rifled weapons to private individuals, in my opinion, it is more profitable for the arms lobby to sell heels of weapon boxes instead of organizing a shooting gallery. By the way, in the USSR there were shooting ranges in every park of culture and leisure, and in the basements of many schools. Without any trade and procurement policy of civilian weapons (hunting societies are still less extensive than the rest of the country's population).

[Xscorpion]

Quote: realist

the issue is not the number of types of small arms, but why create difficulties in supplying parts of ammunition of different calibers. America has 24 types of dry rations going to the troops to satisfy the demands of both Mexicans and Jews and Muslims - this is still a task for the rear! but these are their problems, why do we need two calibers for army small arms!?

We have had 2 calibers for a long time. And still in many units, in particular intelligence, the old AKMs are in service along with the new AK-74Ms. There are no problems with logistics if the unit commander or foreman is not too lazy to fill out an extra piece of paper at the shooting range or in the storage room weapons. For each caliber, there are different tasks, their pluses and their shortcomings and only amateurs can choose from them who is better.

[would]

This is A-545 and A-762. About simplified models AEK-971 and AEK-973.

After that, I realized that there will be a bunch of errors in the article. And so it turned out. In which place is the A545 simplified in comparison with the AEK-971, naturally it is not indicated ... perhaps the simplification is the rejection of the receiver cover and the transition to a conventionally refracted receiver? That's where the author got a mythical simplification?

But to the "Kalashnikov" and "tar" is. And one of them - how and according to what scheme will the parts be completed? Where to go 5,45-mm, and where 7,62-mm machines?
And how much will our logistical services be ready for such hemorrhoids? Not even in terms of repair, although here repbats howl. But in case of any damage, you can send to the manufacturer. Although from the Far East - it is still a pleasure in time.
And if we take into account the fact that the mess in our army is not a diagnosis, but a usual condition, then we are sure that dozens of interesting moments are provided to military suppliers.

Anyone who has served in the army wonderfully knows that services are not ready for "such hemorrhoids," but have been working with "such hemorrhoids" for decades. Anyone who has served in the army miraculously knows that the cartridge is 7,62 × 39 mm, and as a result, the AKMs and AKMSs did not completely disappear from the army even after switching to 5,45 × 39. They are still armed, they are still statewide and that’s all also used by individual units. AKMs are significantly smaller than before, they are not the main weapon, but they are. For example, they are used by reconnaissance complete with 7,62 US, an automatic machine for it and PBS-1.

But the authors either did not serve in the army, or served in some other army. They don’t know this.

Of course, AKM was developed not yesterday, AKMs that are in the army were not released yesterday, and at the same time, the need for automatic machines specifically for 7,62 × 39 did not go away. And a logical decision was made to replace outdated AKMs both structurally and physically with new machines for the required caliber. Everything is fine and no fantasies about the alleged "two rounds for the main small arms "because the main one was and is 5.45.

Well, it’s worth mentioning separately that the interchangeability of parts between the AK-12 and AK-15 is clearly the highest. That is, the decision to put into service two calibers does not lead to complication of repairs within the framework of the machine from one manufacturer. Only whatever the caliber within the automatic machines from different manufacturers and of course of a different design. But this is also not a problem, and such an experience already exists.

Kovrov designers used a balanced automation scheme, which improved the accuracy of shooting at 15-20%. A more complex design led to a rise in price and, as an option, less reliability.

Naturally, what kind of "less reliability" they will not tell us. Someone can now start water-borne theoretical discussions, but there are relevant documents from the tests. And it is in them that it is absolutely written that reliability has decreased or not.

Well, 15-20% it depends on the position of the body and shooting modes.

[medvedron]

From personal experience, I think that it’s most reasonable to use a 7.62 cartridge on an RPK, and for AK 12-15 5.45 and also for Kovrov products, then there will be less hemorrhoids and a real gain for rifle platoons.

[Jew Russian]

All we just have are many rounds of ammunition in our warehouses, both of them and the AK of the hundredth series are the same, but for now the troops will be saturated at the same time. So they accepted everything they could come up with.

[hezbola]

and 5,56 and 308 and 8,6 mm lead can be thrown into the trash, there is a video where 8,6 dapua through the BZ warrior with a cap does not even break the ribs, similar to nij4A steel ar500

[bone1]

Theme is nothing, why are you excited? We made stocks of AK and ammunition for 3 world wars - live yes, rejoice, no, the design itch got around.

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: Bone1

Made stocks of AK and ammunition for 3 world wars - live yes rejoice

Weapons are aging morally. Cartridges have an expiration date.
Have you ever tried to shoot ammunition 20 years ago? Try it ... it's funny

[bone1]

Well, if it’s moral then of course About personal experience: as a child, I found a trophy Sauer from my grandfather, some kind of worn 189. model with three clips, he shot everything and survived, though his ears were torn; in his youth he was engaged in searching for the remains of the dead — which weapons they couldn’t find — they were shot to shreds — and again alive, in the army they shot a lot from the AKS — they also spent ammunition from the mid-50s (from our depots) —so you don’t need to whistle. By the way, off-topic at the shooting together with us, the VOKhRovtsy fired from Mosinki, this is something, Aurora is resting.

[Golovan Jack]

So ... what about

Quote: Bone1

ran up to ...

- read the Hansa (there are many similar stories. With different endings).
Now to the point: the warranty period for the storage of gunpowder used in machine gun cartridges is 25 years.
After a while, there may be ... anything, options:
- nothing (the shorter the delay, the more likely it is)
- "zilch" (a bullet flies near and slowly)
- detonation (here - how lucky)
And, yes, the phrase

Quote: Golovan Jack

... cartridges of 20 years ago ...

- It meant precisely "the limitation of the expiration of the warranty period", if you did not understand.
Like this

[bone1]

You tell this to the children. Ammunition from storage, according to standard methods, is periodically checked by selective firing; if standards are not met, they are disposed of. And, on the topic, what does the shelf life have to do with it? -What ammo? .62 stopped releasing?
And about the "moral" obsolescence of AK can not be more detailed? - Design let us down and ashamed of the enemy? or is the color not "European" (not blue enough)?

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: Bone1

And, on the topic, what does it have to do with storage time?

Here is the "with this":

Quote: Bone1

Made AK stocks and cartridges for 3 world wars live yes rejoice

Quote: Bone1

And about the "moral" obsolescence of AK can not be more detailed?

Moral aging is a natural process that applies to any, um, instrument ... including weapons.
AK as yet can be used for its intended purpose.
Three-line - no longer.
So clearer?

Quote: Bone1

You tell this to children

Yes, I’m telling them, I’m telling them
Judging by

Quote: Bone1

design let us down and ashamed of the enemy? or is the color not "European" (not blue enough)?

- exactly for children

[Aqela]

Che-t Browning M2 doesn’t become morally obsolete ...

[cat hippopotamus]

Take both machines, and the units themselves will make the choice.

[bone1]

Or can each soldier buy a weapon of his choice? -Like officers in the RIA?

[yehat]

I have already gotten the permalinks that AEK is more expensive
damn, well, how much more expensive ??? There was added gear and a few simple pieces of iron
Is that worth a few thousand bucks ???
Well, how much can this insanity, taken from the self-promotion of Kalash, be transferred from article to article?
Well, really, nobody got tired of the fact that they squeezed a penny in the supply, and then they paid hundreds of rubles for it?
the article is curious, but these passages simply explode the brain with their fucking dumbness.