Military Review

VNEU - to be! Design Bureau "Malachite" successfully tested a sample of non-volatile installation

126
The design bureau Malakhit successfully tested a sample of an air-independent power plant (VNEU) with a gas turbine engine designed for small submarines, the design bureau said.


VNEU - to be! Design Bureau "Malachite" successfully tested a sample of non-volatile installation


The prototype model of a VNEU with a closed-cycle gas turbine engine was successfully tested.
- it is spoken in the message "Malachite".

It is also noted that the cooperation of enterprises with which they will create a prototype VNEU has already been defined.

In June, 2017, the Lada submarine was reported to be the first to receive the latest engine. Later it became known that the St. Petersburg submarine would be repaired and modernized.

As previously reported, its air-independent power plant for non-nuclear submarines is also being created at the Rubin design bureau. The Russian Navy announced that they expect to receive a ready-made VNEU from Rubin in 2021-2022, reports TASS
Photos used:
http://army-news.ru/
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  1. Sergey985
    Sergey985 April 2 2018 19: 02
    +13
    Here are those on! They are only at the beginning of the journey. And they made promises.
    1. oleg-gr
      oleg-gr April 2 2018 19: 02
      +5
      Well, at least something is already there.
      1. Titsen
        Titsen April 2 2018 19: 30
        +4
        Quote: oleg-gr
        Well, at least something is already there.


        И что же?

        NOTHING!!!!!!!

        ONLY Naked Promises ....
        1. hrych
          hrych April 2 2018 19: 58
          +33
          Everything is lost! They betrayed us! We are defenseless! wassat
          1. Romario_Argo
            Romario_Argo April 3 2018 06: 32
            +2
            Everything is lost! They betrayed us! We are defenseless!

            last year here on the site everyone was whining like everything is deplorable,
            and in recent months everyone has gradually shut up.
            Even “Andrei from Chelyabinsk” in his articles on our website could not have imagined the possibility of forcing our developments on the VNEU for diesel-electric missiles.
            How many more awaits us all surprises and surprises (!)
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk April 3 2018 12: 11
              +2
              Quote: Romario_Argo
              Even “Andrei from Chelyabinsk” in his articles on our website could not have imagined the possibility of forcing our developments on the VNEU for diesel-electric missiles.

              And where did you see the forcing? :)))) In the next promise, which I have heard every couple of years for at least 10 years? :)))
              Holy naivety ...
              1. Romario_Argo
                Romario_Argo April 3 2018 14: 12
                +1
                Andrei makes sense from or to adjust your series of articles "about a sad look"
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk April 3 2018 16: 01
                  0
                  What to correct something? :)))
                  Malachite, EMNIP developed VNEU for ultra-small submarines (up to 1000 tons) and has not yet developed it. So far, no one is planning to include ultralow submarines in the fleet. What we are talking about?
        2. Dam
          Dam April 2 2018 21: 50
          +4
          Everything is gone chef, plaster is removed, the client leaves. Work hard without a light
    2. vorobey
      vorobey April 2 2018 19: 10
      +27
      Quote: Sergey985
      Here are those on! They are only at the beginning of the journey. And they made promises.


      re-read three times .. but where are the promises then .. request request
      1. Sergey985
        Sergey985 April 2 2018 19: 18
        +2
        Yes, all diesel engines should already be with VNEU. Which year they promise. And they have been advertising for export for a long time.
        1. Berkut24
          Berkut24 April 2 2018 19: 52
          +32
          This is crap. Those Germans who rivet submarines with VNEU like pies somehow admitted that the efficiency of these units turned out to be much lower than expected. Those. VNEU have not yet given any significant advantages, and they occupy a place on board. Therefore, it may not be scary that while we lag behind "in iron". All countries with this garbage still poking around and poking around.
          1. Kurare
            Kurare April 2 2018 22: 53
            +9
            Quote: Berkut24
            This is crap. Those Germans who rivet submarines with VNEU like pies somehow admitted that the efficiency of these units turned out to be much lower than expected.

            Germany relied on fuel cells, i.e. on hydrogen. Such a system, although relatively compact, is terribly expensive both in production and in operation.
            Sweden and Japan have relied on the Stirling engine. As far as I read, he showed himself quite well.
            Russia, represented by KB Rubin, is betting on reforming diz. fuel. Here, for now, everything is "in vitro."
            1. Dam
              Dam April 3 2018 00: 57
              +3
              You obviously did not teach physics at school. This is me about Stirling
              1. alatanas
                alatanas April 3 2018 11: 07
                0
                The Swedes laid on Stirling, and then taught about the Carnot cycle. heh lol
              2. Kurare
                Kurare April 3 2018 20: 11
                +2
                He taught physics and pretty well. Just a little black came out ...
            2. Amateur
              Amateur April 3 2018 04: 32
              +5
              Sterling is drowned in England. In Japan, only the Enami. Sterling is not economically efficient.
      2. 210ox
        210ox April 2 2018 19: 27
        +1
        Promises were given a little earlier. And the output is still a layout for small submarines. Something like this ...
        Quote: vorobey
        Quote: Sergey985
        Here are those on! They are only at the beginning of the journey. And they made promises.


        re-read three times .. but where are the promises then .. request request
        1. vorobey
          vorobey April 2 2018 19: 42
          +4
          Quote: 210ox
          Promises were made much earlier.


          well, don’t feed this bread with us ... I also promised to marry three or four ..

          and the client if I need to take money away I sing a nightingale ... laughing

          Quote: 210ox
          And the output is a layout for small submarines. Something like this ...


          Below I’ve written about Wikipedia on this subject only.
          1. Svarog51
            Svarog51 April 2 2018 20: 45
            +2
            Sanya, hi I’ve been watching for six years now how do you peasant with a shovel e ... um ... bring up, and if he doesn’t slip the face one day, but throw the F-1? It’s like a sickle to me. "You and I are of the same blood. You and I"
            I also promised three or four to marry ..
            To whom, if not I understand this. Ivanovo is a city ... um ... brides. So I live.
            1. vorobey
              vorobey April 2 2018 21: 21
              +2
              Quote: Svarog51
              if he didn’t slip the face one day, but throw the F-1?


              so I work it out in that case ... this ... hit in tennis - 5 bukaf laughing
              1. Svarog51
                Svarog51 April 2 2018 21: 45
                +4
                Do not swear at the current - the blow is called "X ... k" lol Well, as in boxing “hook” wink
                Do not miss when the chocolate trick starts.
                Z.Y. But I didn’t promise a single one except my wife. And once I gave the word, I keep it.
      3. just exp
        just exp April 2 2018 19: 29
        +2
        for 2 years now we had these boats to be in service. and they are only now completing the tests, and a series since 2021.
        1. AUL
          AUL April 2 2018 20: 24
          +2
          Quote: just EXPL
          for 2 years now we had these boats to be in service. and they are only now completing the tests, and a series since 2021.
          And not boats are tested, but only VNEU MAKET. Who knows, how much time will pass from the test of the LAYOUT to the installation of a real engine on a boat. Yes, we know how to promise!
          1. just exp
            just exp April 2 2018 23: 45
            +2
            Well, they don’t test the layouts, and they write in the article that they tested the sample, that is, an experimental device, but I agree far from the series.
    3. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa April 2 2018 19: 44
      +6
      Quote: Sergey985
      Here are those on! They are only at the beginning of the journey. And they made promises.

      What are you talking about, my dear!
      The creation of a non-volatile power plant (VNEU) for fifth-generation non-nuclear submarines of the Kalina project has been completed, according to the report of the Rubin Central Design Bureau for the 2015 year.
      https://vz.ru/news/2016/6/28/818511.html
      Do not believe? Well, then here's another one:
      On December 18, Director General of the Rubin Central Design Bureau, Igor Vilnit, announced that the ground tests of the non-volatile power plant for non-nuclear submarines were completed and in the 2016 year VNEU marine tests should be conducted.

      On October 23 on 2017, Deputy Navy Commander-in-Chief Vice Admiral Viktor Bursuk announced that the Russian Navy would receive non-nuclear submarines with an air-independent power plant by the end of the 2020 year.
      1. Svarog51
        Svarog51 April 2 2018 20: 54
        +2
        Alexander hi HOW can a gas turbine without air (oxygen) cost? Well, at least a hint, pli-and-and-and-s. recourse On tanks, this EC requires much more air than a conventional diesel engine and, moreover, purified air. How is it? Sorry for the question, but the gas turbine air eats a lot more.
        1. mark1
          mark1 April 2 2018 21: 08
          +2
          Quote: Svarog51
          HOW can a gas turbine without air (oxygen) cost? Well, at least hint, pee-and-and-and-s

          Google Project 617, everything was invented long before us ...
          1. Svarog51
            Svarog51 April 2 2018 21: 48
            0
            Thanks, I’ll definitely look. hi
        2. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I April 3 2018 01: 39
          +1
          Quote: Svarog51
          HOW can a gas turbine without air (oxygen) cost?

          I think. What could not have done without an “error” (mistakes)! "Meant", most likely, a steam turbine installation. hi
          1. Svarog51
            Svarog51 April 3 2018 04: 12
            +1
            Hello Vladimir hi
            I think. What could not have done without an “error” (mistakes)!

            And I had a similar thought. I read about the project 617 - painfully "dumb" way. It's good that the S-99 did not sink.
            1. mark1
              mark1 April 3 2018 05: 31
              +2
              Quote: Svarog51
              painfully "dumb" way.

              Everything is better than carrying a barrel of liquid oxygen on board.
              No wonder pr 615 in the fleet was called "lighters."
              1. Svarog51
                Svarog51 April 3 2018 06: 03
                0
                Everything is better than carrying a barrel of liquid oxygen on board

                I wanted to ask what - peroxide torpedoes also work on this principle?
                1. mark1
                  mark1 April 3 2018 07: 00
                  +1
                  Well, yes, Walter’s engine is at the heart of everything.
                  1. Svarog51
                    Svarog51 April 3 2018 07: 06
                    0
                    Why did everyone spread to VNEU? Maybe I don’t understand something in naval affairs, but for me it would be better if the coastal infrastructure was created and the Lira revived.
              2. Nikolaevich I
                Nikolaevich I April 3 2018 08: 40
                +1
                Quote: mark1
                Everything is better than carrying a barrel of liquid oxygen on board

                Well ... hydrogen peroxide is also not "sugar"! What is only "Kursk" worth!
            2. Nikolaevich I
              Nikolaevich I April 3 2018 09: 16
              +1
              Hello, Sergey! "Clean" gas turbine units (VNEU) I do not remember something at point blank range! There are steam-turbine plants, and steam-gas-turbine ... (on hydrogen peroxide), but they also have more steam than "gas" ...
              It is a pity that one more type of VNEU was overlooked here ... with the use of a metal "melt"! (Or another "coolant") This idea was proposed in the 1st half of the 20th century. The essence is as follows: a diesel engine works on the surface, the "coolant" in a heat accumulator is heated by exhaust gases; in a submerged position, a liquid is pumped through a heat accumulator with a coolant, steam is formed, which is sent to a turbine or piston engine. A more modern option: the use of heat accumulators (with a metal melt) in conjunction with a Stirling engine (in this case, the "stirling" does not need oxygen, this is me for addressing)
              hi
          2. Amurets
            Amurets April 3 2018 05: 42
            +1
            Quote: Nikolaevich I
            I think. What could not have done without an “error” (mistakes)! "Meant", most likely, a steam turbine installation.

            It means the Walter’s turbine. Therefore, the French work on the VNEU principle: the DCN group of companies for the French submarine Scorpen (Agosta-90B) developed a steam-generating anaerobic EC of the type MESMA (Module D'Energie Sous Marine Autonome ) A full-scale onshore prototype anaerobic EC was put into operation back in 1998. According to the DCN concern, the output power of the MESMA anaerobic control unit is 200 kW, which makes it possible to increase the diving range by 3-5 times, at an average speed of 4-5 knots.
            http://bastion-karpenko.narod.ru/Scorpene.html
      2. sivuch
        sivuch April 3 2018 09: 13
        +1
        And what does Rubin have to do with it? They have their promises, Malachite has their own.
    4. Maz
      Maz April 2 2018 20: 46
      0
      You are a colleague, not dusting ahead of time, they developed VNEU for small submarines such as sabotage "piranhas", and for the big one, four have been floating and the hefty factory has been beaten, but not one .... do you think Serge?
    5. igor.borov775
      igor.borov775 April 3 2018 01: 27
      0
      Quote: Sergey985
      Here are those on! They are only at the beginning of the journey. And they made promises.

      Hello! Five years from now, deliveries will begin, Yes, everything is not so simple, But you can promise anyway for no responsibility
  2. Herculesic
    Herculesic April 2 2018 19: 02
    0
    Falkler from our science, almost a legend, suddenly became almost a reality! !!
  3. Borik
    Borik April 2 2018 19: 04
    +4
    expect to get ready VNEU from Rubin in 2021-2022, reports TASS


    Add to this period another five years. And let's hope that by this time we will get a submarine.
    1. vorobey
      vorobey April 2 2018 19: 12
      +6
      Quote: Borik
      expect to get ready VNEU from Rubin in 2021-2022, reports TASS


      Add to this period another five years. And let's hope that by this time we will get a submarine.

      but does anyone have analogues? .. this is the same battery release and an additional place for armament, plus range. under water. I'm not a submariner but I think so ..
      1. Simargll
        Simargll April 2 2018 19: 17
        +3
        But does anyone have analogues?

        Well, sort of like the Japanese, Germans, Spaniards, French have .....
        So what? hi
        1. vorobey
          vorobey April 2 2018 19: 20
          +2
          Quote: Simargll
          Well, sort of like it is


          like or eat on boats
          1. Simargll
            Simargll April 2 2018 19: 21
            +5
            Is.
            And for a long time and on serial boats.
            So more precisely? hi
            1. vorobey
              vorobey April 2 2018 19: 23
              +2
              Quote: Simargll
              Is.
              And for a long time and on serial boats.
              So more precisely? hi


              basically.. hi
              1. jjj
                jjj April 2 2018 19: 30
                +2
                Calm down, no one really has a working system. Everything Else - Advertising
                1. Simargll
                  Simargll April 2 2018 19: 34
                  +6
                  "VNEU have German submarines ave. 212 and 214, the French Scorpen, the Spanish S80, the Swedish Gotland and Westergetland, the Japanese Soryu, the Chinese Yuan (ave. 041)."
                  Do they all lie?
                  Do you promise and you can be referenced? hi
                  1. vorobey
                    vorobey April 2 2018 19: 38
                    +9
                    Quote: Simargll
                    "VNEU have German submarines ave. 212 and 214, the French Scorpen, the Spanish S80, the Swedish Gotland and Westergetland, the Japanese Soryu, the Chinese Yuan (ave. 041)."
                    Do they all lie?
                    Do you promise and you can be referenced? hi


                    read wikipedia on this subject ...

                    citation .. Since an air-independent power plant requires a supply of liquid oxygen or hydrogen on board a submarine, and also because of the low underwater range provided by VNEU, there is a tendency for non-nuclear submarines to return to a traditional diesel-electric circuit in modern designs using ultra-high capacity lithium-polymer batteries [3] [4].
                    1. Simargll
                      Simargll April 2 2018 19: 41
                      +6
                      This is another question.
                      And it doesn’t justify so many years of inconclusive torture of poor Lada. hi
                      1. vorobey
                        vorobey April 2 2018 19: 55
                        +2
                        Quote: Simargll
                        This is another question.
                        And it doesn’t justify so many years of inconclusive torture of poor Lada. hi


                        the question is different, but did we have 20 technologies back to achieve the result?
                    2. Nikolaevich I
                      Nikolaevich I April 3 2018 01: 35
                      +2
                      Quote: vorobey
                      requires a supply of liquid oxygen or hydrogen on board the submarine for its work,

                      1. "Liquid oxygen OR hydrogen ..." Are these components interchangeable?
                      2. Do Stirlings “require oxygen”?
                      1. Amurets
                        Amurets April 3 2018 09: 20
                        +2
                        Quote: Nikolaevich I
                        1. "Liquid oxygen OR hydrogen ..."

                        Oxygen was needed for Lighters, small submarines of the A-615 project. Hydrogen peroxide for C-99 project 617.
                        In 1946, work began on TsKB-18 to create an experimental submarine of project 615 with energy
                        new ED-KhPI, chief designer A. S. Kassatsier. Continuous Underwater Range
                        navigation was commensurate with the navigation range of submarines of projects 613 and 611, and significantly
                        project 96 submarines ascended. In total, one project submarine 615 and 29 project submarines were built
                        A615. The operation of these submarines was accompanied by a number of accidents, including the death of submarines.
                        In connection with the active development of nuclear submarines, the ED-KhPI project was closed [6].
                        VNEU based on ICE ZTs using hydrogen peroxide or oxygen as an oxidizing agent
                        lorries were also created in Sweden [21]. However, in the future, for VNEU, the submarine was used mainly
                        new engine with external heat input (Stirling engine). The first submarine with an engine
                        Stirling probably became the French "Saga" (1971), on which two engines were installed.
                        Stirling finisher produced by Swedish co. United Stirling. Further by the Swedish company
                        Kockums were first serially introduced by VNEU based on the Stirling engine. So in 1988,
                        The “Nankeen” type submarine was converted to Stirling engines. Gotland submarine steel
                        the first production submarines with Stirling engines.
                  2. jjj
                    jjj April 4 2018 11: 28
                    0
                    Quote: Simargll
                    "VNEU have German submarines ave. 212 and 214, the French Scorpen, the Spanish S80, the Swedish Gotland and Westergetland, the Japanese Soryu, the Chinese Yuan (ave. 041)."
                    Do they all lie?
                    Do you promise and you can be referenced? hi

                    You can build a boat with a similar installation. Show it to the public. This is the advertisement. But it really cannot work, in the sense of being in constant combat duty,
            2. 72jora72
              72jora72 April 3 2018 03: 30
              0
              Is.
              And for a long time and on serial boats.
              So more precisely? hi
              Only the result was much more modest than expectations .....
        2. Muvka
          Muvka April 2 2018 19: 20
          +6
          The fact of the matter is that their VNEU is much simpler and much less convenient. We are doing completely different.
          1. Simargll
            Simargll April 2 2018 19: 27
            +7
            Are you serious?
            Their "simple and less convenient" has long served and even goes for export.
            And where is our "completely different"?
            Well, the one that has been promised for 10 years. hi
            1. Muvka
              Muvka April 2 2018 19: 48
              +2
              Better one good one, which will not require reworking the infrastructure for refueling the boat with hydrogen, and which will work much longer.
              1. Simargll
                Simargll April 2 2018 19: 52
                +4
                Better one good one

                Firstly, we do not have a single one, and vrazhin have a lot.
                Secondly, one diesel sub is less than nothing.
                We need a series and a large one and for a long time and without excuse, that one but good. hi
                1. The comment was deleted.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                  2. The comment was deleted.
            2. Tiksi-3
              Tiksi-3 April 2 2018 19: 57
              +4
              Quote: Simargll
              And where is our "completely different"?

              we have the word different Volodya meant on alien principles wassat
              drinks do not try to prove anything to him .... there is only a saber (pen) to wave!
              1. Simargll
                Simargll April 2 2018 20: 00
                +4
                I am forced to upset you, but I am a supporter of Putin (which does not cancel healthy criticism, but does not allow crossing borders and calling on the president of Russia Volodya).
                So if the plus is from you, then you have in vain strained. hi
                1. Tiksi-3
                  Tiksi-3 April 2 2018 20: 19
                  +3
                  Quote: Simargll
                  I have to upset you

                  I’m forced to upset you because I thought that you could read and think
                  Quote: Simargll
                  but it’s not possible to cross borders and call the president of Russia Volodya).

                  do you carefully read, or do you think that Volodya is Putin ?? ... slow-witted .... how does he bring you ..... Volodya is your opponent in this thread - Muvka fool
                  Quote: Simargll
                  So if the plus is from you, then you should not have tensed

                  Well, for sure, something is missing for you .... by the way, if you equated yourself with the Slavic god, then write it without errors! (Simargle)
                  1. Simargll
                    Simargll April 2 2018 20: 21
                    +1
                    "Volodya is your opponent in this thread - Muvka"
                    Sorry, I did not understand. hi
                    Why go straight to the person? No.
                    I apologize. drinks
                    ps "then write it without errors! (Simargl)" is already taken. wink
                    1. Tiksi-3
                      Tiksi-3 April 2 2018 21: 02
                      +2
                      Quote: Simargll
                      I apologize.

                      received drinks
                      1. Simargll
                        Simargll April 2 2018 21: 12
                        +2
                        Thank you! hi
                        ps nice to chat with adequate people. drinks
          2. Denis Obukhov
            Denis Obukhov April 2 2018 19: 34
            +11
            in Russia 2 teams are developing 2 directions

            - diesel fuel (or another source of hydrogen) + oxygen - first “Malachite” + SKBK = piranha 1980 is the first-generation VNEU “Crystal-20”, hydrogen in an intermetallic compound is an alloy of a metal with a high hydrogen content converted to a hydrogen carrier gas , which is extracted by the ECG generator (German direction of the boat 212 of the project), then since 1998, the Rubin Central Design Bureau has been connected to Malachite, and the RSC Energia named after SP Koroleva, VNEU of the second generation "Crystal-27", or an ECG generator for rifing of alcohols (methyl alcohol - a hydrogen carrier), developed by RSC Energia see patent of RSC Energia: Your text to link here ... (this direction Spaniards promote), then the Krylovsky center connected. The latter idea, unlike the first two: the source of hydrogen is diesel fuel - the third generation of VNEU) (the French also deal with it)).

            We have been working together on the topic for more than 30 years - therefore it is the main one))

            - Stirling engine methane + oxygen "IIC" Stirling Technology "(also involved in the Swedes and Chinese)

            I’m more interested in the reforming of diesel fuel with the production of hydrogen for these elements of the Rubin Central Design Bureau as part of this article. Reforming our alcohols seems to have already passed with Energy - the project does not suit. and why?)

            In diesel fuel reforming, we have only 1 competitor - the French company DCNS, although it reported on the installation of diesel fuel reforming in 2014. (by the way, after she reported on our reports on the VNEU created by us from 2014, they somehow hung in the air ... probably then they finally switched to developing the VNEU of the third generation. why? The performance characteristics of the French boat are astounding: Your text to link here ..., " It is stated that with autonomy of three months and a cruising range of up to three weeks under the fuel cells, the boat will be able to cross the Atlantic six times underwater at a cruising speed of 14 knots. "Your text to link here ... -All other coastal boat options have subsequently disappeared themselves and our option should have been and became at least the same)

            Nothing, we will trade together in the market))

            Why we do not have Stirling - low power of the propulsion system, the Swedish engine is 75 kW. how many do you need per boat? The Chinese version is 160-200 kW per engine, 4 engines = 640-870 kW for the Chinese, which is also not a complete buzz in German for the 212 project boat.

            A Stirling engine also needs a tank with liquefied oxygen and liquefied natural gas, although ... these engines say omnivores.

            And by the way, the Japanese do not like their stirling engines and they are leaning simply corny to lithium-ion batteries.
        3. Tiksi-3
          Tiksi-3 April 2 2018 19: 54
          0
          Quote: Simargll
          Well, sort of like the Japanese, Germans, Spaniards, French ....

          Swedes have the best setting ......
      2. AUL
        AUL April 2 2018 20: 27
        +2
        Well, the battery from the boat will not go anywhere! Maybe there will be fewer of them.
        Quote: vorobey
        Quote: Borik
        expect to get ready VNEU from Rubin in 2021-2022, reports TASS


        Add to this period another five years. And let's hope that by this time we will get a submarine.

        but does anyone have analogues? .. this is the same battery release and an additional place for armament, plus range. under water. I'm not a submariner but I think so ..
        1. vorobey
          vorobey April 2 2018 20: 47
          +3
          Quote: AUL
          Well, the battery from the boat will not go anywhere! Maybe there will be fewer of them.
          Quote: vorobey
          Quote: Borik
          expect to get ready VNEU from Rubin in 2021-2022, reports TASS


          Add to this period another five years. And let's hope that by this time we will get a submarine.

          but does anyone have analogues? .. this is the same battery release and an additional place for armament, plus range. under water. I'm not a submariner but I think so ..


          Guys, I'm not in the subject, do not judge me. if Che .. so sharpen the hairs .. laughing
  4. Denis Obukhov
    Denis Obukhov April 2 2018 19: 11
    +2
    The main thing is not to lose such valuable scientific personnel, stinting on their labor remuneration
  5. KVU-NSVD
    KVU-NSVD April 2 2018 19: 14
    +6
    Good news - it seems the matter has moved. Although, until they reach the series, then the time for repair and modernization will arrive in time for Saint Petersburg ... And VNEU is very necessary for the fleet - they will significantly expand the capabilities of the non-nuclear submarine fleet, and first of all for ensuring the deployment of an SSBN, because MAPLs are expensive and small in number, and Lad can be built for these (and not only) purposes much more ..
    1. dvina71
      dvina71 April 2 2018 19: 29
      +3
      Quote: KVU-NSVD
      they will significantly expand the capabilities of the non-nuclear submarine fleet,

      They won’t do it .. The speed under VNEU is a couple of knots .. and VNEU just increase the time under water, but you’ll have to come up .. less often. Atomic submarines can emerge at will))), but not out of need.
      1. KVU-NSVD
        KVU-NSVD April 2 2018 19: 38
        +3
        The submarines with VNEU have more opportunities than the DEPL for covert patrols, and much more - you won’t argue with that? Of course, there is nothing to compare with MAPL, but for operating in the adjacent seas with the support of its aviation, it is quite enough to counter enemy boats there, including and nuclear ..
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk April 2 2018 20: 23
          +6
          Quote: KVU-NSVD
          The submarines with VNEU have more opportunities than the DEPL for covert patrols, and much more - you won’t argue with that?

          And who knows, that’s what’s funny. In theory - yes, but in practice it is completely incomprehensible - what is the noise level during the operation of the same Stirling? In general, the Japanese didn’t move from VNEU to lithium-ion batteries
      2. Dam
        Dam April 3 2018 01: 04
        0
        There is another problem, sound insulation. Nuclear submarines are much more noisy
  6. svp67
    svp67 April 2 2018 19: 20
    +4
    The prototype model of a VNEU with a closed-cycle gas turbine engine was successfully tested.
    Everything is more wonderful and marvelous ... GTE is very gluttonous not only for fuel, but also for oxygen, diesel is somehow more moderate in this respect, that is, they solved the problem of oxygen starvation of GTE, but GTE has another bad property for working under water, it is very sensitive to back pressure, because of which it is necessary to put a second pipe on the tanks for exhaust gases, a four-stroke diesel engine does not require such a pipe.
    1. dvina71
      dvina71 April 2 2018 19: 31
      +3
      Quote: svp67
      GTE is very gluttonous not only for fuel,

      Most likely, the journalist was sleeping on the press .. that he gave to the mountain ..
    2. Mooh
      Mooh April 3 2018 00: 11
      +2
      GTEs are very different, including those that do not use atmospheric air in principle. See Walter's engine. The only information from the article is that a closed-cycle gas turbine engine was tested, which is not enough for discussion. The only thing that can be said for sure is that a gas turbine engine should be quieter and more efficient than stirling.
  7. Pattor
    Pattor April 2 2018 19: 30
    +2
    I would not believe reporters. They can blab anything. This is the question of gas turbine engines. Who knows what really
  8. Zubr
    Zubr April 2 2018 19: 42
    +3
    With the initiative of you gentlemen, designers! Finally ! Looks like it was not a simple task. It is interesting to know its efficiency ...
  9. next322
    next322 April 2 2018 19: 42
    +3
    “The prototype VNEU with a closed-cycle gas turbine engine has been successfully tested
    Given the creation of a prototype, its testing and launch into a series, this is at least 10 more years ......... 2028
  10. NEXUS
    NEXUS April 2 2018 19: 44
    +1
    that they expect to receive a finished VNEU from Rubin in 2021-2022, reports TASS

    Fun ... though ..
    B-585 "St. Petersburg" - laid down, 26.12.1997/22.04.2010/XNUMX, transferred to the fleet, XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX.

    That is, the project 20 is more than 677 years old. After the transfer to the fleet of St. Petersburg, a lot was said about VNEU ... and now it turned out that only the layout was tested ...
    1. Mooh
      Mooh April 3 2018 00: 13
      0
      That's about Rubinovsky, it's about Malachite. Already from you then did not expect a mournful wringing of hands on the spread polymers.
      1. NEXUS
        NEXUS April 3 2018 00: 35
        0
        Quote: MooH
        That's about Rubinovsky, it's about Malachite. Already from you then did not expect a mournful wringing of hands on the spread polymers.

        Do you think things are better with the Malakhitovskaya VNEU? Saw since what year is it? And now let's remember how much this installation is used by the Germans ... they promise to be 21 at the best! And where is it, sorry? Malachite went slightly ahead, but it is not yet known which VNEU will be more successful at the exit. And my irritation with this whole story is clear ...
        1. Evgeniy667b
          Evgeniy667b April 3 2018 14: 19
          +1
          There is already a systematic pattern associated with writing articles about VNEU. Designers have a need for financing! It is with their supply that bubbles start. Especially succeeds in this, “Ruby." And if you dig a little deeper, it turns out that the matter is at the same stage as a year naad, and two years ago ... It’s somehow not funny already! And the sense of faith disappears that they can do it. I believe that such projects should be done with enthusiasm, first of all, and not after receipt of payment. And the "general" "Rubin" "just fit to write fairy tales, a very talented person in this matter!
          1. Mooh
            Mooh April 4 2018 23: 57
            0
            Gentlemen, perhaps you are not in the know, but the Rubinovskaya installation has long been built and tested on the Lada. I don’t remember how many options, but two were definitely mounted. Another thing is that the customer did not accept it. Its characteristics were not satisfied, and with reliability, to put it mildly, not brilliantly. I don’t know how the whole thing works for the Germans and Swedes, for the Japanese they say something like ours. Accordingly, now Rubin is developing another new version of a chemical reactor, and now malachite is also connected with its turbine. (God forbid, not to use peroxide.) We still have a Soviet development - a nuclear thermoelectric generator and, according to rumors from not very reliable sources, there is a certain ultra-compact nuclear power plant in the metal based on traditional principles. Accordingly, the competition between developers is fierce and frantic, and without a non-VEU the fleet will definitely not remain. Another thing is that the customer requires a child prodigy and also for three pennies, so the unfinished building was formed. Again, there is nowhere to put this very installation. All these frets and viburnums are a bit of a wrong level. We need a non-nuclear boat mainly to go through the Bosphorus, and in the Mediterranean it would be nice to have a larger and more autonomous boat.
  11. Skipper
    Skipper April 2 2018 19: 49
    +3
    Four types have spread:

    engines with external heat supply (Stirling),

    closed cycle diesels

    closed cycle steam turbines

    power plants with electrochemical generators.

    Different countries approached the creation of an air-independent energy installation in their own way:

    Sweden has taken the path of creating a plant based on the Stirling engine;

    The basis of the German installation was an electrochemical generator and intermetallic hydrogen storage

    the French created the MESMA (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) installation based on a closed-loop turbine operation using ethanol and liquid oxygen
    Already whole fleets of PLPL go for 20 days without surfacing. The Germans have already sold such boats to both Koreans and Japanese. At the Pacific Fleet they have about 23 submarines, in contrast to our 7 halibuts.
    In the early 80s, the USSR was a pioneer in the development of VNEU, so they remained in the development. Not soon catch up on the number of VNEU and testing in reliability.
  12. Falcon5555
    Falcon5555 April 2 2018 19: 51
    +1
    with gas turbine engine
    How - with a gas turbine? Is he making a noise? Then it makes sense to fence a garden with such a VNEU? The boat will be deaf, as under the RDP. Well, let's say they will take extraordinary measures for sound insulation, but it will not be quieter than an atomic boat anyway - and will lose its main advantage.
    1. Dart2027
      Dart2027 April 2 2018 21: 38
      +2
      Quote: Falcon5555
      How - with a gas turbine? Is he making a noise?

      Noises are different, more precisely in different ranges. In one case, you need to fence the garden, and in the other, a minimum of effort is enough. Here is the second case.
  13. lance
    lance April 2 2018 20: 03
    0
    the model is tested in metal, which means the next stage is the direct installation of the engine on a submarine. with the initiative of you gentlemen. I think this pl will not have the conclusions of the Germans, French, etc.
    1. AUL
      AUL April 2 2018 20: 42
      +1
      the model is tested in metal, which means the next stage is the direct installation of the engine on a submarine
      From the layout to the real engine - a huge distance! Any structural engineer will explain this to you. So do not skip steps, do not make people laugh.
      1. lance
        lance April 3 2018 03: 28
        0
        answering you I’ll tell you the next prototype on the boat and 2-5 years if they don’t give a “magic kick”. then for a year.
  14. d1975
    d1975 April 2 2018 20: 27
    +2
    Quote: Simargll
    But does anyone have analogues?

    Well, sort of like the Japanese, Germans, Spaniards, French have .....
    So what? hi

    Well, the truth from them you will not wait for sure. They said that they were not quite buzzing! But there is no need to rush, there are a lot of examples, we are not so rich to mow so much.
  15. cedar
    cedar April 2 2018 20: 37
    +1
    If the Poseidon has an atomic generator one hundred times smaller than a conventional generator on conventional nuclear submarines, can it be replaced by a VNEU ..? Hydrogen and oxygen in the enclosed space of a submarine is not good, radiation is not a gift either, but what do we know about the Poseidon power plant? Nothing. What if it generates electricity directly, circuitlessly. The pumps are mute, the turbines are mute, the noise is zero ... Fiction ...
    1. sabotage
      sabotage April 2 2018 20: 42
      +1
      Quote: cedar
      If the Poseidon has an atomic generator one hundred times smaller than a conventional generator on conventional nuclear submarines, can it be replaced by a VNEU ..?

      Here is the answer about the reactor and Poseidon. If such a thing could have gotten naughty, then it would have gotten naughty, and only cartoons are left to show.
      1. cedar
        cedar April 2 2018 20: 47
        +1
        Do not count your chickens before they are hatched...
    2. Dart2027
      Dart2027 April 2 2018 21: 43
      +1
      Quote: cedar
      If the Poseidon’s nuclear generator is one hundred times smaller than a conventional generator on ordinary nuclear submarines

      Not so simple.
      Firstly, it will have a “slightly different” power.
      Secondly, the nuclear submarine reactor should work for decades, and in a rocket or drone the requirements for the service life are different.
  16. 123456789
    123456789 April 2 2018 20: 39
    0
    Isn’t it easier to use a nuclear power plant from Poseidon?
    1. Aviator_
      Aviator_ April 2 2018 23: 37
      0
      It is for a crewless vehicle, (if at all). On biological protection, savings.
  17. senima56
    senima56 April 2 2018 21: 21
    0
    Well, God forbid! And then we with these VNEU lag behind the others and therefore lose this market (submarine with VNEU)!
  18. kefan
    kefan April 2 2018 21: 41
    0
    But everything connected with the fleet is very slow and with a big creak.
  19. earloop
    earloop April 2 2018 22: 17
    0
    A beautiful solution to complex engineering. Problems.
  20. JD1979
    JD1979 April 2 2018 23: 28
    +3
    I'm just curious. Now, if someone doesn’t lie, as some potential victims claim, they made a super-torpedo on the sound engine, they made the CR on the sound engine too, i.e. already small reactors are making. Is it really impossible to make a small reactor for small submarines and not toil with these "independent" ones?
  21. Aviator_
    Aviator_ April 2 2018 23: 36
    0
    It is high time. They lagged behind the Germans for 20 years.
  22. Igor V
    Igor V April 3 2018 01: 05
    0
    In the photo - Baltiysk. When Alrosa was in the parade, I was on the Baltic Spit, which is pictured. smile
  23. 1c-inform-city
    1c-inform-city April 3 2018 02: 03
    +3
    summarize so to speak. The Germans have an installation, but there are no working boats. The latter failed some two months ago and now all the German boats are in jokes. Only two years ago, the Germans themselves said that they would not build more boats from the outside for themselves because of the unreliability and high cost of operation (comparable to nuclear). request
    1. jjj
      jjj April 4 2018 11: 37
      0
      And how many French boats and various Swedish boats go to the seas? As they say, they calculated - they cried
  24. sleeve
    sleeve April 3 2018 05: 30
    0
    What kind of pessimism? We do not even know in draft what principles are implemented in this installation. Perhaps this is again not a generally accepted scheme. Maybe there is generally a task "with the possibility of replacing existing ones with modernization." Let's wait for at least the “voiceovers” of the components of the project.
  25. Eugene 1475
    Eugene 1475 April 3 2018 06: 15
    0
    Damn only promise! Let's hope that at least they succeed! And then Rubin ate how many resources and not what!
  26. geniy
    geniy April 3 2018 09: 42
    +1
    Awesomely stupid article. So little of this - even from the readers no one understood anything.
    First: the article only talks about testing the propulsion system itself, and not a finished submarine with this installation. That is, the designers simply created some kind of prototype and tested it at the stand in terrestrial rather than underwater conditions.
    Secondly, I suspect that these engineers reported misinformation to the author of the article: that is, they intentionally confused a gas turbine with a conventional steam turbine. Because the gas turbine is very noisy, and practically unsuitable for submarines, but the steam turbine is almost silent - even during tests of the well-known British battleship Dreadnought, it was noted that steam turbines work so silently unlike steam engines that they work (turbines) or not, it was possible only by instruments (by the rev counter).
    Thirdly: what is “Air-independent installation” in general? Most ignoramuses think it's some kind of supernova engine of ingenious design. But in fact, in order for any submarine to be independent of atmospheric air, it is necessary to fulfill the main condition: somehow be able to store a very large supply of oxygen on board. Most readers of this do not understand the simplest things so much that they do not even know that the main condition for the operation of any heat engine is that it burns fuel when it is combined with oxygen. And if there is no problem storing organic fuel on a submarine, storing and receiving liquid oxygen in a submarine is a huge difficulty. One of the articles on this topic says that this non-volatile installation uses a highly efficient method of reforming ordinary fuel into oxygen.
    But understand - that reforming - that is, simply converting a mixture of hydrocarbons into pure hydrogen - is just the conversion of the fuel itself (and hydrogen is mainly needed in fuel cells, which so far have little power), but how these “scientists” are going to store or receive oxygen - not a single word about this in the article!
    1. Falcon5555
      Falcon5555 April 3 2018 14: 30
      0
      Awesomely stupid article. So little of this - even from the readers no one understood anything.

      Why is this not enough? This is just enough. laughing And how can you understand a “stunningly stupid article”? laughing
      "Air independent installation"? Most ignoramuses think it's some kind of supernova engine of ingenious design.
      Is it a layman or not, when do I remember the electrochemical oxygen-hydrogen generators? wink
      which is the main condition for the operation of any heat engine: it is the combustion of fuel when it is combined with oxygen.
      And where is the combustion in these generators?
      And if there is no problem storing organic fuel on a submarine, storing and receiving liquid oxygen in a submarine is a huge difficulty.
      Sorry, but there is still a problem with the removal of combustion products, of course if the fuel is not pure hydrogen, and the oxidizing agent is not oxygen. And why is it necessarily liquid? And why is oxygen necessary?
      One of the articles on this topic says that this non-volatile installation uses a highly efficient method of reforming ordinary fuel into oxygen.
      I do not see!
  27. gridasov
    gridasov April 3 2018 10: 58
    +1
    The entire development of VNEU is limited to understanding how to transform any fuel in a liquid or gas state in a simple way and device. Moreover, in a way that does not lose the potential of energy density as a process when scaling. Moreover, the new method and device allows you to transform both the process itself in the air-independent installation and change both the propulsion and nuclear reactors. All these separate devices are connected by the same principles physical process. Therefore, in the basis it is necessary to understand the fundamental principles of the conversion of substances, and only then tackle everything else. Although I admit, the device is also very difficult to understand.
  28. geniy
    geniy April 3 2018 10: 59
    0
    And yet - a long time ago - even seeming in the fifties in the Union were built babies with a renewable supply of oxygen. If one of the readers did not understand: then the renewable stock is fundamentally different from the one that was just pumped on the shore. For example, at the end of the year before the end of the nineteenth century, the French built the first purely electric submarines. BUT few people know that the energy reserve in batteries per unit of weight is about a thousand times LESS than the energy reserve of a kilogram of fossil fuels. And therefore, purely electric boats could only sail near the port for only one day. but when boats with gasoline engines and electric generators appeared to recharge the batteries, gradually diesel boats became oceanic.
    So: exactly the same with the Soviet babies: they not only pumped a supply of oxygen into their tanks, but in addition they also had a freezing unit for receiving oxygen from the air right during the voyage. That is, simply a small turbine that created a rarefaction of air, and from this it was very cooled and oxygen became liquid and pumped into the tank, and nitrogen
    emitted into the atmosphere. And now there is no difficulty in repeating this. Moreover, the oxygen tanks on those babies were made of sheet copper, and now the technology of winding high-pressure cylinders for storing gases from heavy-duty fiber impregnated with epoxy is widespread. And such non-volatile installations could provide submarines with a very long cruising range, because liquid oxygen in combination with conventional fuel provides many times more energy storage than batteries.
  29. Akser
    Akser April 3 2018 17: 34
    0
    Quote: Sergey985
    Here are those on! They are only at the beginning of the journey. And they made promises.

    VNEU to be, it made so many promises ?? Wipe the glasses!
  30. geniy
    geniy April 3 2018 20: 48
    0
    Quote: Falcon5555
    "Air independent installation"? Most ignoramuses think it's some kind of supernova engine of ingenious design.
    Is it a layman or not, when do I remember the electrochemical oxygen-hydrogen generators?

    If you don’t know, then we are talking about hydrogen-oxygen generators for at least forty to fifty years. And the design principle of these devices is that they directly generate electric current - without any involvement of any heat engine. And of course, that the resulting electric current is immediately sent to the electric motor, which would give movement to the submarine. So - in this article we are talking about TURBINE! And how does this fit with the conversion of fossil fuels to hydrogen? After all, the turbine should eat regular hydrocarbon fuel well, and not pure hydrogen. And if a hydrogen-oxygen electric current generator is used there, then what does the TURBINE mean?
  31. geniy
    geniy April 3 2018 21: 12
    0
    Quote: Falcon5555
    which is the main condition for the operation of any heat engine: it is the combustion of fuel when it is combined with oxygen.
    And where is the combustion in these generators?
    If you do not know the principle of operation of fuel cells, then although there is no flame there, there is still a reaction of hydrogen oxidation by oxygen - which in essence is combustion, and from this oxidation reaction an electric current is generated in fuel cells.

    And if there is no problem storing organic fuel on a submarine, storing and receiving liquid oxygen in a submarine is a huge difficulty.
    Sorry, but there is still a problem with the removal of combustion products, of course if the fuel is not pure hydrogen, and the oxidizing agent is not oxygen. And why is it necessarily liquid? And why is oxygen necessary?


    If you do not understand the simplest things, then be aware that when hydrogen is oxidized with oxygen, it produces the most ordinary water in the form of steam and there is no problem cooling and throwing this overboard. And carbon dioxide is also easily cooled and compressed already in two atmospheres and perfectly dissolves in sea water. So there is no problem.
    But storing liquid oxygen in a submarine in large quantities is a HUGE PROBLEM. The fact is that if you knew chemistry, then the H2O water molecule if you calculate the molar weights - two hydrogen atoms give only 2 weight units, and one oxygen atom - 16 weight units. That is, the weight of oxygen in water is 8 times that of hydrogen. And this means that to oxidize one ton of hydrogen - it takes 8 times more oxygen! And if on board a submarine there is, for example, 100 tons of fuel in the form of hydrogen, then 800 tons of oxygen are needed! And where to get it in a submarine?

    And why is it necessarily liquid? And why is oxygen necessary?
    Pancake! Well, if you don’t know how the volume and density of gaseous oxygen differs from the volume and density of liquid oxygen, then what can you talk about with such “experts” in banal chemistry and physics?
    And why is oxygen necessary?
    And what can you offer as an oxidizing agent for fuel - can it be fluorine or explosive hydrogen peroxide of high concentration?
    1. Falcon5555
      Falcon5555 April 3 2018 22: 25
      +1
      I read it with pleasure. laughing
      For example, this:
      If you don’t understand the simplest things, laughing then know that the oxidation of hydrogen with oxygen produces the most ordinary water
      laughing - How true, Watson! That is a genius. Well, for sure, a genius. Who else is so versed in such things? laughing
      there is no problem cooling and throwing this overboard the submarine.

      This is generally an unexpected revelation! laughing
      Well and so on in the text. Where to get 800 tons of oxygen, if you have 100 tons of hydrogen ... And where do you get 100 tons of hydrogen? belay If you have hydrogen, then why are you afraid of peroxide - does hydrogen not explode? belay From what day of the week did it stop exploding?
      the reaction of hydrogen oxidation by oxygen - which in essence is combustion,
      laughing Oxidation is not burning, you are our genius. Study your textbooks if you have them. Burning is oxidation, but not vice versa.
      and from this oxidation reaction in the fuel cells an electric current is obtained.
      laughing Well, how true! Exactly - it turns out!
      Good Luck!
  32. geniy
    geniy April 4 2018 00: 08
    0
    Quote: Falcon5555
    If you have hydrogen, then why are you afraid of peroxide - does hydrogen not explode? From what day of the week did it stop exploding?

    Imagine that hydrogen itself does not explode without oxygen at all. And without an oxidizing agent, hydrogen (like any other substance) cannot even burn. And only in a mixture with oxygen does hydrogen form the so-called "explosive gas" and explodes perfectly. But even then, provided that the hydrogen is not less than 4% and no more ...
    1. Falcon5555
      Falcon5555 April 4 2018 12: 50
      0
      Congenial.
      Imagine that hydrogen itself does not explode without oxygen at all.

      I’m trying, but I just can’t imagine it. Doesn't it explode at all? laughing And how do you imagine this? I think it’s much easier for you to imagine than for me. laughing
      And can’t even burn? But what about alcohol when it burns in the throat? belay
      But even then, provided that the hydrogen is not less than 4% and no more ...

      And no less, and no more? laughing
  33. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I April 4 2018 07: 22
    0
    Amurets,
    Amurets,
    ((Oxygen was needed for Lighters, small submarines of A-615 project. Hydrogen peroxide for C-99 of 617 project.))
    So all the same, hydrogen peroxide (!), And not hydrogen!
    To the topic of "sterling":
    ((. A more modern option: the use of heat accumulators (with a metal melt) in conjunction with a Stirling engine (in this case, the "stirling" oxygen does not need I am addressing)))
    I read about the Swedish submarines with "Stirling" ... they use diesel fuel and liquid oxygen to "warm up" the engines.
    1. jjj
      jjj April 4 2018 11: 41
      0
      Well, that’s how our “thick” torpedoes were not battery powered
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I April 4 2018 12: 41
        0
        Quote: jjj
        "thick" torpedoes were not battery powered

        Yes ... turbine and hydrogen peroxide, kerosene. Batteries here are not used in the "electric sense", but refer to the "Dewar vessels", but not filled with liquefied gas, but with a metal melt.
  34. 123456789
    123456789 24 June 2018 15: 41
    0
    The Advanced Research Foundation is developing an autonomous uninhabited underwater vehicle with an external combustion engine ....
    Source: https://newinform.com/124393-preodoleet-sevmorput
    -podo-ldom-v-rf-sozdayut-noveishii-npa? utm_source
    = finobzor.ru
  35. 123456789
    123456789 6 July 2018 19: 21
    0
    Last spring, the Rubin Central Design Bureau of Marine Engineering completed the design of the fifth-generation Kalina, a fifth-generation diesel-electric submarine capable of being under water for significantly longer than modern ships of this class. The new ship will receive a non-volatile power plant operating on highly purified hydrogen-containing gas. It will be received on board a diesel-powered submarine by reforming.
    The resulting hydrogen will be supplied to hydrogen-oxygen fuel cells, where electricity will be generated for engines and on-board systems. With this scheme, designers expect to get a method of almost silent power generation. As expected, the capacity of the installation developed by Rubin will be about 400 kilowatts. The development of an anaerobic power plant is scheduled to be completed in 2018.