Military Review

7,62 mm: step forward or backward?

175
A new video from the Kalashnikov concern with AK-15 shooting, plus information that the machine will still go to the troops. Together with three more models: AK-12, AEK-971 and AEK-973.




Why did the Defense Ministry need so many models, we will talk separately, now that first of all attracted attention.

And first of all I want to talk about the differences not from AEK and AK, but AK-15 and AK-12.

Actually, the only difference is in the caliber. 7,62 and 5,45.

What caused the return to the caliber, from which not only our army, but also potential adversaries and allies tried to leave the 70s of the last century? But the affairs of the opponents are not so interesting to us, but for our own talk and think.

Indeed, the presence of two automatic machines with a caliber of 7,62-mm is nothing more than a kind of rehabilitation of the cartridge of the sample 1943 of the year. Or his second life, if you want. What is the point?

And the point is that the main task of the modern automaton cartridge is the defeat of manpower at distances up to 400-500 meters. In this case, the shooting is assumed from not quite stable positions - standing, from the knee, on the go. Accordingly - his majesty automatic fire bursts. And the effectiveness of firing bursts is very dependent on recoil. The higher it is, the lower the efficiency.

This is precisely the reason for the presence of low-impulse cartridges in the main armies of the world. 5,56 x 45 in NATO, 5,45 x 39 in Russia and 5,8 x 42 in the PRC Army.

Pros: less weight weapons, small recoil impulse, high accuracy, more wearable ammunition.

Cons: high tendency to rebound, less penetration.

Indeed, the ability of the domestic 5,45-mm bullet to ricochet off the branch has long been known. NATO’s ammunition is no better.

American soldiers began complaining about their ammunition back in Afghanistan. Ricochets and insufficient stopping action.

And at the beginning of the 2000-x were presented new cartridges: 6,5 x 39 Grendel and 6,8 x 43 Remington SPC. Both cartridges were offered as promising future military ammunition. The reasoning is clear: increasing the caliber provides better ballistics and more reliable target destruction as compared with the standard 5,56 x 45 cartridge, with relative preservation of the recoil momentum.

And even earlier, in the 60-70-ies of the last century, the Soviet and American military considered the possibility of switching to micro-caliber systems, caliber smaller than 5 millimeters. By the way, the Europeans also did not lag behind, the same G-11 had a caliber 4,7-mm from "NK".

The benefits were obvious: no returns, high flatness and a light cartridge. And again, more wearable stock of cartridges and more of them in the weapons shop. In the same G-11 - 50.

But micro-caliber (as well as sub-caliber in the USSR) ammunition systems did not pass the cost test.

And in 70's, our designers came to the conclusion: the minimum possible caliber of the machine is about five and a half millimeters.

If less, there is a set of problems that Soviet designers V.P. Gryazev, P.A. Fadeev, A.G. Shipunov and D.I. Shiryaev encountered when developing the AO-27 subcaliber machine gun.

If more, for example, according to the opinion of the Russian gunsmith Vladimir Fedorov, the optimum caliber for automatic weapons is 6,5 of a millimeter, this entailed a reduction in ammunition (due to the greater mass of the cartridge) and a decrease in the effectiveness of shooting. Not in terms of range or penetration, but in terms of quantity.

But the most important thing, of course, is efficiency. In fact, all the cartridges we are talking about were developed in the last century. And since the birth of that cartridge 7,62-mm, that 5,45-mm, not that much water has flowed under, much of which was invented.

For example, Kevlar. And a bunch of his colleagues in countering the pool.

The presence of a light but durable body armor in today's day is the norm for a fighter, and not something supernatural. And here the 5,45-mm and 5,56-mm cartridges began to gradually lose to modern materials.

But let's not forget about the main thing: switching to a new cartridge is not even money. This is the amount. And, huge.

That is why in the United States, in general, they favorably regarded the cartridges of the caliber 6,5-mm and 6,8-mm, but as a sniper cartridge for work at the near (up to 1 000 m) distance. Replacing the cartridge 7,62 x 51. But no more than that.

We, unlike the USA, have even less money. Not to mention the amounts.

But we have a cartridge. Sample 1943 of the year, 7,62 x 39. In 18 views. And all with the same advantages and disadvantages in the form of weight and other things. But it is able to pierce brickwork from a hundred meters to a depth of 15 centimeters, and a sheet of steel armor seven millimeters thick to pierce a BZ bullet from 300 meters.

Bulletproof vests ... Well, someone as lucky.

In general, it is necessary to agree with the views of many gunsmiths, who believe that the caliber 7,62-mm is still relevant.

After all, in which case, the wrong army wins, which is armed with modern ammunition with cool bullets, but the one whose soldiers can afford to spend 100, 200 and even 500 bullets to neutralize one enemy fighter. This is exactly the option when quantity decides.

The huge potential for the production of 7,62-mm cartridges, we certainly guarantee an uninterrupted supply of ammunition to the army.

Improving the properties of propelling charges, ballistic and penetrating properties of bullets is a task rather for the corresponding design bureau, which, if equipped and equipped, should not become a problem.
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  1. Spartanez300
    Spartanez300 April 2 2018 05: 15
    +6
    One caliber of 7,62 mm is quite enough for the army, and there are reserves, and when driving a horn, you won’t have to look where a cartridge is.
    1. Maz
      Maz April 2 2018 11: 18
      +3
      AK-15 is my choice. from 7,62 to 39. It turned out that the first machine was AKM and the second AK74, shot at both. I can compare. Practice finally decides what’s what. What is special forces in Syria? Ak-15? Well, that’s the whole result.
      1. aws4
        aws4 April 3 2018 03: 09
        +3
        in Syria, our special forces use AK in caliber 5.45. I think they could choose any cartridge but chose 5.45 ..
    2. Vladimir 5
      Vladimir 5 April 2 2018 14: 42
      +3
      The time of combat operations of mass infantry offensives with the uniform monotonous small arms has passed. The transition to detachment groups with different armaments, therefore superior in effectiveness, is long overdue, such were created and applied at the end of the WWII and WWII based on the experience gained in combat operations (assault groups). According to this, the department, as a combat primary unit, should be armed in a comprehensive manner, and the machine is the most low-powered and more personal weapon of self-defense on the battlefield, it must be replaced by a machine gun. sniper rifle, AGS, jet hand guns with different ammunition, but the main thing will be communication systems and guidance of high-precision heavy weapons, up to aviation and the Kyrgyz Republic ... The war becomes network-centric in real time. The machine gun, as an effective weapon, is important in urban and other close combat, but it must also be different, with a caliber of 9 mm and higher (stopping action), shorter and more mobile for close combat, etc. According to this cartridge its place is tied to weapons. So, the machine gun and sniper weapons are at least 7,62, and higher, it was not for nothing that machine guns at 12,7 and 14,5 mm became popular, because the distance to the enemy, as a rule, is calculated in kilometers and not hundreds of meters ... .
    3. yehat
      yehat 18 June 2018 22: 34
      0
      I do not agree that a single 7.62 cartridge is enough. I used to think differently, but now - no.
      in the forest - I agree, in close combat - SMG and 9mm are good, but there are conditions, especially in the city or mountains, where both calibers are not good enough. therefore, at least one intermediate cartridge is needed. Just weapons need to be made so that the caliber easily adapts to different conditions. Now, in my opinion, it’s quite obvious and there are examples in history that the orientation of the army on one cartridge - 5.45 or 7.62 makes it in some situations not quite effective.
  2. Varna
    Varna April 2 2018 05: 52
    +7
    Why 7,62, 12,7 is possible and why not. It only bothers the amount of ammunition that can be carried (one hundred cartridges, no more) and the complete lack of the ability of the shooter to shoot bursts. And how cool it would be: guaranteed penetration of any bronik; through and through; moreover, through the side of an armored car or a brick wall, it’s a fairy tale and not a personal weapon.
    If there is any development (real) in personal weapons, then this is hardly an enlargement of caliber; rather a reduction to sub-caliber; a rod of high strength and heavy metal, launched at the highest possible speed for personal weapons.
    1. Mih1974
      Mih1974 April 2 2018 12: 03
      +9
      Yeah and ohrinilard dough on his release and nutrition fool . You (and others) in the second glaze write “win those to whom there will be a lot and cheap.” A good example is Ukropia, which simply had monstrous reserves and its own Ukrainian SSR and ZGV, only 4 years of war has passed (albeit of low intensity) and there has already been talk of a lack of ammunition belay
      At the same time, also pay attention to WHAT they use in current conflicts - EVERYONE who had a free choice uses Kalash. good Whoever says bad things about them, but this is the best option for weapons and supplies. bully
      Let's be frank - wouldn’t the American military-industrial complex lobby be happy to sell M-16, M-4, or AR-15 to every “barmale”, and then sell cartridges to them in billions? Yes, they would be ready to torture their president with soldering irons for such a gift of fate, but the problem is precisely BABLE. sad And when it comes to the real "bookkeeping of war", then it is "toad and strangling." If I am not mistaken with all the tricks of the West for the "convolution" of my rifle, one feature in the world is increasing the indicator "the number of rounds per killed."
      The war of one big country against another is a huge expense "spread out" over the years of peaceful life and accumulation of reserves, this harm is not so expensive, until there is a danger of exhaustion of reserves. But all sorts of partisan, Barmalean, etc., as it is fashionable now, "mediated wars" (that is, by proxy) are expensive. Even the first estimate of online stores gives a difference of 15 times belay negative . Sorry, but for a real war - this is unacceptable, especially when you consider that the cartridges are far from the only costs of the war.
    2. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh April 3 2018 20: 37
      +1
      That's right. In the same small caliber, it is easier to create both an armor-piercing and a sub-caliber cartridge. The only difficulty is that the bullet will be heavier. That is, it is necessary to make the details of personal weapons more durable. Otherwise there will be quick wear.
      A burst of fire must be left to the machine gunners. With massive cheap cartridge.
      1. sharp-lad
        sharp-lad April 4 2018 01: 30
        +2
        Shooting in long bursts! The rest with a cutoff of two or three rounds, it’s painful that the armor has been made lately. And then one plus of a larger caliber comes to the front, stopping the action of the bullet, if it doesn’t strike, then you can’t run with a bruise on the whole chest and / or stomach hi .
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh April 4 2018 19: 36
          +2
          It is difficult for infantrymen to carry this larger caliber on their hump.
          A few rounds can be taken. This has already passed. Therefore, a reasonable decision: to make part of the cartridges in stores 5.56 armor-piercing (more expensive and "wound"),
          and some are ordinary. And label such stores for convenience. For armored vehicles or
          fortifications shoot armor-piercing, on infantry - ordinary.
          1. sharp-lad
            sharp-lad April 4 2018 20: 25
            +1
            So now simple ones are “wound”, at least with a steel core (swept slaughter element), without cores only for the civilian market (for law enforcement officers to have survival chances in bronics). In addition, when firing trained soldiers in short bursts, with auto-cuts of three rounds, the ammunition is enough for a decent time. Well, it's time to learn from the main "partners", to the department or group of one pack drone with supplies ... and a thermos with coffee. smile
          2. aloleggry
            aloleggry April 18 2018 15: 06
            0
            All cartridges are marked. Not dyed - LPS. Green - tracer. Red - ce, silver something (Chinese only saw), black otherwise. Shove them to your store in any order. The task is to fulfill you anyway. Here the soldier will decide what he needs for this task.
    3. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine April 6 2018 13: 02
      0
      Well, drag a hundred cartridges of 12, 7 mm on yourself, after a couple of kilometers you will fall and you will not get up.
      7, 62 X 39 is better not yet.
      1. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok April 13 2018 01: 05
        0
        Quote: tihonmarine
        7, 62 X 39 is better not yet.

        there is 6,5x39 ...
  3. AlexMark
    AlexMark April 2 2018 06: 03
    +4
    Together with three more models: AK-12, AEK-971 and AEK-973.

    And I always said - the main thing is to wait a little wink Forty years in this case. A little bit more and come to the question of the implementation of different rates of fire, depending on the conditions of firing, what Korobov proposed.
    But the news is definitely positive. good
    And one more question. Are we talking about AEK or A-545 and A-762 machines, which represent the latest AEK update?
  4. moskowit
    moskowit April 2 2018 06: 42
    +2
    As Comrade Saakhov said, “Yes, that’s right. A very correct decision ...” (“Prisoner of the Caucasus”)
    1. Cat
      Cat April 2 2018 11: 12
      +4
      Considering how both characters in the film finished?
      It may be worth immediately starting to shout "The Soviet court is the most humane court ....."! laughing
  5. Yak28
    Yak28 April 2 2018 06: 44
    +1
    In general, I am inclined to move forward to come up with new cartridges, weapons for them, for example, the FN P90 submachine gun people made a new cartridge, weapons for him. And we have something new that comes in very tight, I still don’t understand why the screw shop is so rare, why we don’t have loose machine-gun belts, the inconvenient cartridge with a rim 7,62x54 of the 1891 model could have been changed for a long time, but why are there so many of them in warehouses as the old weapons of the Second World War to which they fit.
    1. fdgf
      fdgf April 2 2018 09: 08
      0
      Quote: Yak28
      an uncomfortable cartridge with a rim of 7,62x54 sample of 1891 could have been changed for a long time

      It could be. But in front of a large line of much more failed cartridges.
      Here, the PM cartridge began to change to the cartridge of Steam. Already good.
      Now the turn of the cartridge is 5,45x39 mm. It must be changed to 5,56x45 mm. But do not change, expensive. And the "legendary mechanism" in the automatic mode will not work with this cartridge, it is not adapted. And where to get another? This is the task of the tasks that must somehow be solved.
      And then the line will reach 7,62x54 mm.
      1. Glory1974
        Glory1974 April 2 2018 10: 49
        +20
        It must be changed to 5,56x45 mm. But do not change, expensive. And the "legendary mechanism" in the automatic mode will not work with this cartridge, it is not adapted.

        What indicators is 5,45X39 losing to 5,56X45?
        The legendary mechanism easily works in the AK 100 series under the NATO cartridge.
        1. fdgf
          fdgf April 2 2018 10: 53
          -1
          Quote: glory1974
          What indicators is 5,45X39 losing to 5,56X45?

          For everyone.
          Quote: glory1974
          The legendary mechanism easily works in the AK 100 series under the NATO cartridge.

          He even works with a cartridge 5,45x39 mm with difficulty. If we are talking about fully automatic weapons.
          1. Glory1974
            Glory1974 April 2 2018 11: 26
            +16
            fdgf Today, 10: 53 ↑
            Quote: glory1974
            What indicators is 5,45X39 losing to 5,56X45?
            For everyone.
            Quote: glory1974
            The legendary mechanism easily works in the AK 100 series under the NATO cartridge.
            He even works with a cartridge 5,45x39 mm with difficulty. If we are talking about fully automatic weapons.


            Well what can I say. Highly intelligent discussion wassat
            1. fdgf
              fdgf April 2 2018 11: 29
              0
              Quote: glory1974
              Well what can I say. Highly intelligent discussion

              I answer briefly, the very essence.
          2. aws4
            aws4 April 3 2018 03: 14
            +1
            provide evidence .. I shot hundreds of stores from it and didn’t notice something))))))
          3. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya April 3 2018 03: 49
            +5
            Are you another reincarnation of carbine?
      2. KP8789
        KP8789 April 2 2018 11: 00
        +20
        fdgf
        It could be. But in front of a large line of much more failed cartridges.
        Here, the PM cartridge began to change to the cartridge of Steam. Already good.
        Now the turn of the cartridge is 5,45x39 mm. It must be changed to 5,56x45 mm. But do not change, expensive. And the "legendary mechanism" in the automatic mode will not work with this cartridge, it is not adapted. And where to get another? This is the task of the tasks that must somehow be solved.
        And then the line will reach 7,62x54 mm.

        Since when 5,45x39 mm has become a failed cartridge. This can be written either by a full "loser" or by a regular visitor to Ukrainian arms forums, where local "experts" prove the superiority of 5,56x45 mm over 5,45x39 mm.
        fdgf I advise you to draw information from serious sources, including foreign ones. Perhaps then you will understand how you are mistaken now. No one has ever intended and is not going to change 5,45x39 mm to 5,56x45 mm. And it's not about the price at all.
        1. fdgf
          fdgf April 2 2018 11: 13
          0
          Quote: KP8789
          when 5,45x39 mm became a failed cartridge.

          From birth.
          Quote: KP8789
          where local "experts" prove the superiority of 5,56x45 mm over 5,45x39 mm.

          There is nothing to prove here, everything has already been proven 40 years ago.
          Quote: KP8789
          Perhaps then you will understand how you are mistaken now.

          I know what I'm talking about. At a very professional level. And I don’t need all kinds of “sources” for this, I can advise them myself.
          Quote: KP8789
          Ikto never intended and is not going to change 5,45x39 mm to 5,56x45 mm.

          This is yes, expensive. Yes, and there is no mechanism. And it’s expensive squared.
          Quote: KP8789
          And it's not at all the price.

          It is in this.
          1. KP8789
            KP8789 April 2 2018 11: 18
            +5
            Are you a merchant?
            1. Alex_59
              Alex_59 April 2 2018 14: 32
              +21
              Quote: KP8789
              Are you a merchant?

              Yes, this is a local Troll nomad.
              Anamez: Russian calibers are terrible. Why? I am a pro. The proof is me. And you need to learn, mediocrity.
              Treatment: Ignore. Sprinkle with talcum powder. In the absence of progress - blocking.
            2. aws4
              aws4 April 3 2018 03: 16
              +1
              yes or he or his follower))))))))))))))))
          2. Grenader
            Grenader April 2 2018 13: 07
            +9
            Quote: fdgf

            0
            fdgf Today, 11:13 ↑ New
            Quote: KP8789
            when 5,45x39 mm became a failed cartridge.

            From birth.
            Quote: KP8789
            where local "experts" prove the superiority of 5,56x45 mm over 5,45x39 mm.

            There is nothing to prove here, everything has already been proven 40 years ago.
            Quote: KP8789
            Perhaps then you will understand how you are mistaken now.

            I know what I'm talking about. At a very professional level. And I don’t need all kinds of “sources” for this, I can advise them myself.
            Quote: KP8789
            Ikto never intended and is not going to change 5,45x39 mm to 5,56x45 mm.

            This is yes, expensive. Yes, and there is no mechanism. And it’s expensive squared.
            Quote: KP8789
            And it's not at all the price.

            It is in this.

            It seems that inadequate drifted from the wind from Ukraine. 5,45x39 mm is not inferior in anything to 5,56x45 mm and surpasses in penetration ability. And what does it mean there is no mechanism? Did you hear anything about the AK-103 in the arsenal of the Venezuelan army? No sane person will change 5,45x39 mm to 5,56x45 mm even for nothing.
            1. fdgf
              fdgf April 2 2018 13: 58
              +3
              Quote: Grenader
              It seems that the wind from Ukraine inadequate skidded

              But "from Ukraine", is this a curse today? Like, "deadly oscarbukha"?
              Quote: Grenader
              5,45x39 mm is not inferior in anything to 5,56x45 mm and surpasses in penetration ability.

              You need to study hard for a long time. As your spiritual guru Ulyanov bequeathed to you.
              You don’t know elementary things.
              Quote: Grenader
              And what does it mean there is no mechanism? Did you hear anything about the AK-103 in the arsenal of the Venezuelan army?

              Ah Venezuela! Then of course, then yes.
              Probably in line for this AK-103 and others are? Tell us about it.
              AK-103 by the way under the cartridge 7,62x39 mm. This is the AK-101 under the patronage of NATO.
              Quote: Grenader
              No sane person will change 5,45x39 mm to 5,56x45 mm even for nothing.

              I feel sorry for him in battle, this of your "sane person." Due to the fact that he will be armed with assault weapons instead of infantry. If you are not in the know, then this is a class below.
              1. Grenader
                Grenader April 2 2018 17: 05
                +7
                Quote: fdgf
                You need to study hard for a long time. As your spiritual guru Ulyanov bequeathed to you.
                You don’t know elementary things.

                What elementary things do I not know? Did the video look carefully? There are many such people.
                Quote: fdgf
                This is the AK-101 under the patronage of NATO.
                He himself admitted that there is a mechanism under the NATO cartridge, it works quite reliably for itself.
                Quote: fdgf
                I feel sorry for him in battle, this of your "sane person." Due to the fact that he will be armed with assault weapons instead of infantry. If you do not know, then this is a class below

                Why, then, the US military complain about the 5,56x45 mm cartridge and are constantly looking for what to replace it with? In general, your argument is 0.
                1. fdgf
                  fdgf April 2 2018 17: 28
                  0
                  Quote: Grenader
                  Did the video look carefully? There are many such people.

                  I never watch. Eyes shore.
                  Quote: Grenader
                  He himself admitted that there is a mechanism under the NATO cartridge, it works quite reliably for itself.

                  Works fine. But this is not an automatic infantry rifle, like the M16A2. This is "advanced AKM in a different caliber." Those. This is a self-loading infantry rifle + submachine gun in one bottle.
                  Did you feel the difference?
                  Quote: Grenader
                  Why, then, the US military complain about the 5,56x45 mm cartridge and are constantly looking for what to replace it with?

                  Who told you that? What nonsense.
                  You watch less different video chips on the Internet.
                  1. Grenader
                    Grenader April 2 2018 18: 36
                    +6
                    Quote: fdgf
                    I never watch. Eyes shore.

                    What to talk about then.
                    1. Okolotochny
                      Okolotochny April 2 2018 21: 05
                      +12
                      Yuri, you leave him. This is a famous "special" in ships and rifle. He always has 3-4 Latin letters in his nickname, he has his own classification of riflemen, he has an assault rifle, and he has an assault rifle, Soviet ammunition and assault rifles - sucks, defensive cruisers and fighters. This is in short.
                  2. 4thParasinok
                    4thParasinok April 23 2018 15: 55
                    0
                    Quote: fdgf
                    I never watch. Eyes shore.

                    another "Chukchi writer" ...
      3. Colonel
        Colonel April 2 2018 15: 55
        +1
        Quote: fdgf
        It must be changed to 5,56x45 mm

        Why, do not explain?
        1. fdgf
          fdgf April 2 2018 16: 29
          0
          Quote: colonel
          Why, do not explain?

          In order to equip the army with full-fledged small arms.
          On Soviet cartridges, a full-fledged army small arms cannot be created. The cartridges are substandard. Nowhere in the world do any prosperous countries use them, and this is not just so.
          1. Colonel
            Colonel April 2 2018 16: 38
            +5
            Do you call full-fledged small arms the one from which you began to spit in Vietnam and did not finish in Iraq and Afghanistan? What is the superiority of 5,56 cartridge? It is initially ground under greenhouse conditions of use.
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. Colonel
                Colonel April 2 2018 17: 02
                +16
                You see, sir, I would be willing to argue with you, incl. and about the puddle, but, inadvertently, looked at your profile and some comments. After that, the desire to argue was lost. You climb everywhere, even in shipbuilding, which means you don’t know anything. You’re just a talker, but it’s a shame, the Internet is everywhere (I'm talking about cartridges).
                1. fdgf
                  fdgf April 2 2018 17: 34
                  +1
                  Quote: colonel
                  After that, the desire to argue was lost.

                  A woman with a cart, the mare is easier.
                  Quote: colonel
                  You climb everywhere, even in shipbuilding, which means you don’t know anything.

                  In shipbuilding a fairly narrow period. When guns ruled the sea ball. And the armor.
                  However, I already wrote about artillery to you.
                  Quote: colonel
                  You’re just a talker, but it’s a shame, the Internet is everywhere (I'm talking about cartridges).

                  Are you offended? In vain.
                  I offer you a program of educational program:
                  The first question is what is the DE M16A2 and DE AK-74.
                  If you notice any difference there, the next question will be, what does this difference mean?
                  So, step by step, you look and you will begin to understand the topic. Objectively, without pathos.
                2. bunta
                  bunta April 2 2018 18: 40
                  +13
                  This is an old famous troll, it is periodically banned, it is again registered under a new nickname. Do not pay attention and do not enter into discussions with him. Better immediately complaints to the moderator on the ban.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
              2. The comment was deleted.
                1. The comment was deleted.
          2. ARES623
            ARES623 April 2 2018 20: 41
            +9
            Quote: fdgf
            Nowhere in the world do any prosperous countries use them, and this is not just so.

            Wealthy countries use 5,56x45 NATO because the "senior" ordered and introduced it as a mandatory standard. And not because he is insanely good. And if we talk about your favorite AR-15 in all poses, then the manual rammer in it indicates insoluble problems in the constructive reliability of the automation. Anyway, your reasoning is continuous theorizing "on the topic." Try to fight in average conditions, somewhere in Syria or LDN. In short, where there is not always time and conditions for thorough cleaning, where there is dust, dirt, snow and lack of sleep. Where you just need to survive yourself and help a friend survive, sharing with him "inferior" according to your patron. Your world can be considered full-fledged, it may be called the M-16 under 5,56 rounds, but with the prevalence of AK, it did not stand by. Still, Marx was right - practice is the criterion of truth. Well, you can at least praise the slingshot here ...
            1. fdgf
              fdgf April 2 2018 20: 56
              0
              Quote: ARES623
              as the "senior" ordered and introduced it as a binding standard

              You in vain retell someone else's nonsense.
              Quote: ARES623
              And not because he is insanely good.

              And that's why.
              Quote: ARES623
              then the manual rammer in it indicates insoluble problems in the constructive reliability of the automation.

              Evidence of consumer care.
              Quote: ARES623
              Anyway, your reasoning is continuous theorizing "on the topic"

              Do you need facts? Here they are:

              Impressed?
              Just in case, I’ll clarify that the transferred energy of the 5,45x39 mm cartridge is about the same as the 7,62x39 mm cartridge.
              Quote: ARES623
              Try to fight in average conditions, somewhere in Syria or LDN.

              There is no full-fledged war. Therefore, they cannot be an example.
              Quote: ARES623
              but with the prevalence of AK, he did not stand next

              Of course. After all, M16 doesn’t even think of giving anyone away to “friends” for free.
              By the way, the AK-74 was also not handed out for free. They handed out AKMs. As nafig not needed.
              Quote: ARES623
              Still, Marx was right - practice is the criterion of truth.

              Exactly. Look there above what the practice says. According to the Soviet, I note the data.
              1. ARES623
                ARES623 April 2 2018 21: 29
                +11
                Quote: fdgf
                There is no full-fledged war. Therefore, they cannot be an example

                You, of course, know better from the sofa. But a war, even if it’s full, though not very, takes life. And whoever survived in it, that means he turned out to be stronger.
                Regarding customer care, you made me laugh. I would not want to be taken care of in this way. I once had the opportunity to use the AK-74 for several days without any lotions, such as picatini, glass on the lid and other crap, without normal cleaning and head over heels in shit. And thanks to Mikhail Timofeevich, the need for a rammer did not arise even once. And here you are bothering me with tables. Let it be known to you that from 1970 to the present, so many generations of cartridges have changed, and 5,45, and 5,56, and each time one is better for some characteristics, then the other. But in a real battle, not machine guns and cartridges will meet, but a man-device-environment system, and your sofa-theoretical delights with clippings from forgotten newspapers
                The times of Ochakovsky and the conquest of Crimea "are not relevant in this struggle.
                1. fdgf
                  fdgf April 2 2018 21: 43
                  +2
                  Quote: ARES623
                  But a war, even if it’s full, though not very, takes life.

                  War and the CTO require different weapons.
                  Not every action where they shoot is a full-fledged war.
                  Quote: ARES623
                  from 1970 to the present, so many generations of cartridges have been replaced

                  Not at all replaced. And the difference between the "latest" and "shnymi" is not more than 5%.
                  Quote: ARES623
                  But in a real battle, there will be no assault rifles and cartridges, but a human-device-medium system,

                  Do you propose to arm yourself with slingshots? Well, what if the quality of the weapon does not matter, why pay more?
                  Quote: ARES623
                  and your sofa-theoretical delights with clippings from forgotten newspapers
                  The times of Ochakovsky and the conquest of Crimea "are not relevant in this struggle.

                  In a field (steppe, desert, forest-tundra) in a typical infantry battle, a fighter with an M16A2 INFANTRESS rifle will make a chop of you. Time 10. While you are with the AK-74 assault rifle, he will sneak up on him at the effective range of this weapon.
                  This is a weapon of different classes and argue with this is stupid. You can only counteract the fact that "I will not meet with him in the field (steppe, desert, forest-tundra). I will meet in the city, in the forest, in the jungle, thickets of reeds, etc., where the difference in performance characteristics will be leveled by the terrain. " There can be no other arguments.
                  1. Golovan Jack
                    Golovan Jack April 2 2018 21: 47
                    +8
                    Ek is storming you ... then your war is "out-of-date", or else some duel in sandbox come up with a desert ...
                    You are very much. Boring you, probably ... poor thing sad
                  2. aws4
                    aws4 April 3 2018 04: 03
                    +9
                    and here you are lying))))))))) AK74 ballistics is excellent .. it’s more than justifiable as an average shooter .. the M16 has a diopter and the AK74 doesn’t .. that’s the main advantage of shooting at long distances with M16 .. put on ak74 a good diopter at a distance of up to 400-450 meters, the average shooter will hit targets not much worse than with m16 ... further more - take the average US Marine put a chest target at a distance of 600-700 meters and give him m16. .. I assure you that he won’t even see it at this distance, he just won’t see the target .. so enough here to write fairy tales about the steppe, forest-tundra, desert ..))))))))))) and also what you we didn’t participate in the database, we already found out a long time ago, but now it turns out that you didn’t even shoot at the targets and didn’t run with a rifle .. you’re not even a shooter, this is understandable by what kind of nonsense you state ...
                    1. bone1
                      bone1 April 7 2018 22: 37
                      0
                      I agree, but the M-16 has a longer barrel and better accuracy
                      1. Bad thing
                        Bad thing 21 August 2018 09: 12
                        0
                        Quote: Bone1
                        M-16 trunk is longer and, accordingly, accuracy is better
                        How does barrel length affect accuracy? And the accuracy is also different, with a single fire the M-16 is better, bursts with the AK-74 and its clones. In general, the article is about a cartridge, IMHO it would be more correct to compare AKs for different cartridges.
                  3. ARES623
                    ARES623 April 3 2018 19: 26
                    +7
                    Quote: fdgf
                    Not at all replaced. And the difference between the "latest" and "shnymi" is not more than 5%.

                    You, dear, are very weak at invoice. According to the results of tests TsNIITOCHMASH, the penetrating effect of bullets 5,45mm and 5,56mm is characterized by the following indicators: 80% penetration on 5 mm steel sheet st.3 - 7N6-300m; 7N6M-510m; 7Н10 - 530m; 7N22 - 550m; 7N24 - 850m; 5,56mm NATO - 420. Although of course the 7N24 has a VK8 core, which increases the cost of the cartridge by 4 times and significantly narrows its scope. But 7N22 with a core from U12A is quite “economical”. So, who else will beat someone there, the grandmother said in two. At the same time, note that the muzzle energy of 5,56 NATO at the point of departure is significantly higher than that of the 7H family (180 versus 148 for 7H22). This is the question of how to read the performance characteristics in Murzilki. But to terminate with you in terminology - an assault rifle, an infantry rifle - it makes no sense, because this has nothing to do with practical combat practice. In practice, a machine can be called a hamburger, the main thing is that it performs predetermined functions. By the way about
                    Quote: fdgf
                    in a typical infantry battle, a fighter with an M16A2 infantry rifle will make a chop of you. 10 times

                    In the year around 1988, on the basis of my regiment (I commanded a platoon and company there), we tested the laser system for simulating the defeat of small arms. The fighters were hung with laser beam sensors, and on the AK laser simulators of a shot, triggered by a shot by empty b / p. As one of the issues, the advance of the MSV on the MSO in the prepared defense with the build-up of the offensive forces was worked out. All things being equal, the advancing unit from the line of 400m to 200 meters did not reach. MCO "mowed up to 2 MSV. (The tactical field didn’t allow anymore. This is to say that there are no typical infantry battles, each battle is unique in terms, forces of the parties, skill of the participants. In short, read more, communicate with smart (or experienced) and in disputes do not be too categorical, you will become competent and enjoyable in communication .... wink
                    1. bunta
                      bunta April 18 2018 20: 58
                      0
                      Dear Dmitry! fdgf and tuy22 are one and the same type conditionally called corbayn - he once had a readable nickname. Do not you see that he is trembling only because of getting you out of balance proving obvious nonsense. It is easy to identify him by style, by the theses which he defends, and even by stupid nicknames. He changes them so often that his rationalization no longer works to choose a more or less digestible nickname. So spit and don't feed the troll.
                      1. ARES623
                        ARES623 April 18 2018 21: 16
                        0
                        Quote: bunta
                        So spit and don't feed the troll.

                        Yes, I already realized, just boring ....
              2. aws4
                aws4 April 3 2018 03: 42
                +6
                I was not impressed ... because I singled out 545 wounds with my own eyes .. for me it’s too much and if 556 wounds even worse, I don’t understand where it’s even worse and why ??? By the way, you have already put so many races in place here, broken so many races that you no longer risk it and immediately go to your favorite - wound ballistics ... I can’t understand why you are writing here and for whom? you did not participate in the hostilities, those who rearmed the US MP and IDF from m16 to m4 carbine according to your reviews .. AK is recognized worldwide as the best infantry weapon of the 20th century, but for you this is rubbish and misunderstanding .. what are you trying to achieve ???
      4. aws4
        aws4 April 3 2018 03: 11
        +5
        you won’t wait ... 545 is an excellent cartridge and it makes no sense to change it to NATO ...
      5. Sharikov Polygraph Poligrafovich
        Sharikov Polygraph Poligrafovich April 7 2018 12: 43
        +2
        Wake up !!!
        Good morning :-)))
        The legendary mechanism 23 years ago was successfully trained to work with .223 Rem. in models AK-101 and AK-102 :-)))
        And more recently, in the AK-108.
        And even quite expectedly showed with these 5,56 better ballistics and accuracy than with native 5,45.
  6. tracer
    tracer April 2 2018 06: 48
    +13
    In the photo cartridge 7,62 / 54 R. And the caliber 7.62 / 39 is discussed. These are different calibers of weapons despite the initial identical numbers of 7,62. In the army, we always used the standard 5,45 / 39 and I really liked the persistence above all. Barmaleysky 7,62 / 39 by the appearance handed over somewhere to shoot from them did not give. We got acquainted with these cartridges much later. And for myself, I concluded that the cartridge is really good. I have been hunting with a large beast for several years now. And it’s not at all because there is nothing more serious, it’s concrete, but I wanted to experience this caliber in the hunt for a large beast. The chance fell two times and both times the beast did not leave. Distances are about 230 meters. When it hits, the beast departs 25 or 30 meters and lies down. But this is Elk! With 5.45, such a giant can not be put, the wounded will leave and disappear. Why am I doing this? Moreover, the stopping action of the caliber 7.62 is higher than that of 5.45. Recoil is a little more sensitive, but it doesn’t matter. Although there are nuances. The enemy is certainly not a beast, (although how to say). The 5,45 bullet is much insidious due to water hammer and somersault in the effect of twisting the bent nose up and down to the right after 7.5 centimeters (about 5.5 cm in 5,56 / 45 caliber). BUT this only works while maintaining a high bullet speed (too lazy to look at the tables now), somewhere around 300 meters. Losing speed, the lethal effect drops sharply. A 7,62 mm bullet, even at the end, can inflict a serious wound like a brick thrown from the roof. Mikhail Kalashnikov was right when he said at the military commission when switching to the new 5,45 caliber, "The potential of the 7,62 / 39 caliber has not yet been fully disclosed."
    1. fdgf
      fdgf April 2 2018 09: 06
      +4
      Quote: tracer
      Moreover, the stopping action of caliber 7.62 is higher than that of 5.45

      Everything is exactly the opposite. Their bullets act differently.
      Quote: tracer
      when he said at the military commission when switching to the new 5,45 caliber, "The potential of the caliber 7,62 / 39 is not yet fully disclosed."

      You never know who said all stupidity.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. The comment was deleted.
  7. svp67
    svp67 April 2 2018 06: 50
    +10
    A lot of strange things in the article, at least this ...
    But we have a cartridge. Sample 1943 of the year, 7,62 x 39. In 18 views. And all with the same advantages and disadvantages in the form of weight and other things. But it is able to pierce brickwork from a hundred meters to a depth of 15 centimeters, and a sheet of steel armor seven millimeters thick to pierce a BZ bullet from 300 meters.
    But according to the results of tests in TsNIITOCHMASH it was found:
    In 1954, TsNIITOCHMASH conducted research and comparative tests of cartridges with an armor-piercing incendiary bullet of various calibers, as well as assessing the striking ability of bullets with a steel core. In the course of these tests, it was found that a bullet with a steel core provides penetration of US-made M-12 body armor and penetration of a steel helmet at all ranges of AK, SKS and RPD use by a small-arms SA assault. The penetration ability of 7,62x39 BZ bullets was estimated when firing at an armor plate of high hardness 2P. The armor plate with a thickness of 7 mm made its way with a 90% probability at a range of 200 m, at 325 meters with a probability of 30%. 10 mm armor plate penetrated 50 m from 20%, and 65 m - 0%. Based on these studies, it was concluded that there is no need to use special bullets for firing at live targets and production of cartridges with armor-piercing incendiary bullets was discontinued.

    Further comparative tests 7,62 x39 and 5,45x39
    Bullet penetration (at 80–90% of through penetrations)

    And somehow the special advantages of 7,62x39 are not visible. So not only that, in the more “young” cartridges 5,45x39 7H22 and 7H24, these indicators are even higher and come close to the penetration ability of a rifle cartridge 7,62x54 mm R.
    1. AlexMark
      AlexMark April 2 2018 07: 01
      +2
      It seems like the last changes on these ammunition date back to the end of 60's, if I do not confuse anything, therefore there may be a run-up in armor penetration. This is me about BZ.
      Well, by armor penetration it is quite obvious that a faster “smaller” bullet will have more armor penetration, especially with an armor-piercing core. request
      1. svp67
        svp67 April 2 2018 07: 08
        +4
        Quote: AlexMark
        It seems like the latest changes in these ammunition date back to the late 60s, if I don’t confuse anything, there could be a breakdown in armor penetration.

        From this we conclude that a return to 7,62x39 should occur with the simultaneous emergence of NEW ammunition for this caliber
        1. AlexMark
          AlexMark April 2 2018 07: 14
          +5
          But there is one thing, for 7,62x39 cartridges with a different type of bullet, not armor-piercing, the work is underway and even now) Even your table is not entirely correct, since it is not specified exactly what year the 7,62x39 PS cartridge is used, for example. This cartridge finally got a bullet with a heat-strengthened core at the start of the 90-x. And this will already give slightly different indicators on armor penetration.
          1. svp67
            svp67 April 2 2018 07: 17
            +3
            Quote: AlexMark
            Even your table is not entirely correct, since it is not specified exactly which year the cartridge 7,62x39 PS is used, this is so, for example. This cartridge finally got a bullet with a heat-strengthened core in the early 90's.

            This is also true ...
    2. Vadim237
      Vadim237 April 3 2018 09: 25
      0
      "7N22 and 7N24" - Do you have these cartridges at all in service?
  8. Vard
    Vard April 2 2018 07: 05
    +3
    There was a case ... got a line through the reed wall of the hut ... everything went into a rebound ...
    1. Bad thing
      Bad thing 21 August 2018 09: 36
      0
      Quote: Vard
      got a line through the reed wall of the hut.
      Move the sofa behind the concrete wall of the mansion and there will be no problems. And now the "barmaley" will begin to braid their "Toyota" with reeds.
  9. Monar
    Monar April 2 2018 07: 43
    +7
    That's what confuses - "Indeed, the ability of a 5,45-mm domestic bullet to ricochet from a twig has long been known."
    They showed in one of the military programs firing a burst of 7.62 and 5.45 through a dense layer of shrubbery. The scattering is the same. 5.45 did not fly apart. Yes, and if purely physics is estimated, then the author’s statement is very doubtful.
    I am not special in this matter. I would like to hear the opinion of competent people.
    1. avt
      avt April 2 2018 08: 13
      +3
      Quote: Monar
      They showed in one of the military programs firing a burst of 7.62 and 5.45 through a dense layer of shrubbery. The scattering is the same. 5.45 did not fly apart.

      So what does this video give us ??? Well, the truth of life "
      Quote: Vard
      There was a case ... got a line through the reed wall of the hut ... everything went into a rebound ...

      wassat And then some kind of movie. "
      1. Monar
        Monar April 2 2018 08: 29
        +2
        Well, if you call the "kin" real shooting through a dense shrub, then your problems.
        And as for the real case ... Well, through the reed wall of the hut, Vard did not see him being shot. Maybe they just led the line in his direction. And the result is written off to the rebound.
        1. avt
          avt April 2 2018 11: 19
          +1
          Quote: Monar
          Well, if you call the "kin" real shooting through a dense shrub, then your problems.

          bully Be scared. I saw Az this video, only once again -
          Quote: konstantin68
          From experience, I can say: 5.45 a bullet flips more often, and regarding armor penetration, the problem with 5.45 is that when a vest enters the armor plate, it more often changes direction, can slip without causing harm.

          Do not prove, even if enlightenment type
          Quote: konstantin68
          About the "bounce on the twig" -not much more often than 7.62 / 39.

          All one will be buggy
          Quote: Snark1876
          And if you set the target from the bush at 50,100, 200 m, then it will be seen that the deviation is huge.

          bully By the way? Why not immediately at 1000m? wassat
          Quote: Snark1876
          Yes, and if purely physics is estimated, it causes a lot.

          But really, well, if you can figure it out? Well, its physics. To sit, to calculate the mass of the bullet, the charge, the initial speed and estimate these very -50,100,200, 300 and further meters? wassat
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA April 2 2018 12: 03
            +3
            Bgggg ... I immediately remembered the classic scene from "Shooting Some Sacred Cows": a humorous story of the choice of ammunition for small arms of the American army from the 20s of the last century to the present day.
            Scientist: 5.56 has a good stopping effect. Better than the Russian 7.62X39.
            Infantry: this does not happen. Look, here .30, here .22. .30 more than .22. Got it? I threw 47 bullets into the casing of this reptile, but he did not fall.
            Outside observer: from a 30-round magazine?
            Infantry: you, shtafirka, did not smell gunpowder! But where were you in your laboratory when I fought !?
            Outside observer: objective comparison requires parallel shooting. In different conditions, for different purposes, with cameras and devices ...
            Infantry: you, do not understand? I was at the forefront! Therefore, I understand more than any scientists there. It’s good that by 1980 they will return the cartridge of .30 caliber to us.

            The translation is taken from https://kris-reid.livejournal.com/604805.html
        2. Mih1974
          Mih1974 April 2 2018 12: 20
          +3
          The war is a strange phenomenon, in a video from Chechnya there was a story about a sapper (engineering intelligence) near which three meters blew up spirits from a 152 mm shell. As he said, "... I myself understand very well that - I wouldn’t even have pieces left from me, would have scattered it in the surrounding trees, but here I am in front of you, there wasn’t even a scratch from that explosion. That's when every time when by it’s a funnel (I’ve just taken it off with her) I go through ..... I think about a lot "(believe me, I had to see his eyes).
          1. avt
            avt April 2 2018 14: 01
            0
            Quote: Mih1974
            in a video from Chechnya, there was a story about a sapper (engineering intelligence) near which three meters blew up spirits from a 152 mm shell. As he himself said

            bully Yes, I even read about it!
            "He loaded the gun
            Oh okay gay luli
            And he sang a song
            Oh okay gay luli
            The shell suddenly blew through
            Oh okay gay luli
            The head off
            Okay, gay luli.
            And he charged everything,
            Oh okay gay luli
            And he sang a song
            Okay, gay luli ... "
    2. Snarkxnumx
      Snarkxnumx April 2 2018 09: 47
      +1
      Quote: Monar
      That's what confuses - "Indeed, the ability of a 5,45-mm domestic bullet to ricochet from a twig has long been known."
      They showed in one of the military programs firing a burst of 7.62 and 5.45 through a dense layer of shrubbery. The scattering is the same. 5.45 did not fly apart. Yes, and if purely physics is estimated, then the author’s statement is very doubtful.
      I am not special in this matter. I would like to hear the opinion of competent people.
    3. Snarkxnumx
      Snarkxnumx April 2 2018 09: 56
      +3
      They showed in one of the military programs firing a burst of 7.62 and 5.45 through a dense layer of shrubbery. The scattering is the same. 5.45 did not fly apart. Yes, and if purely physics is estimated, it causes a lot.

      The distance to the target is 15-20 meters from the bush, and even 5.45 bullets entered the target sideways. And if you set the target from the bush at 50,100, 200 m, then it will be seen that the deviation is huge.
    4. Mih1974
      Mih1974 April 2 2018 12: 16
      +3
      I’ll answer you with the words “Vatnika”, this is such a charismatic fighter in LDNR, “.. we lie there, enjoy the night sky, listen to the whistle of flying bullets and fall into the final fucking up from the left VERTICALLY upwards from the blade of a tracer bullet. I’ll tell you that it’s indescribable unreal .. " repeat
      I do not presume to judge your combat experience, but I believe him. A man from the first days in the trenches, he does not resemble an empty empty balabol.
    5. Okolotochny
      Okolotochny April 2 2018 21: 09
      +1
      On TV "Star" was a dock. Movie. There was a whole bunch of branches. And 5,45 went through them closely, practically without yielding 7,62.
  10. konstantin68
    konstantin68 April 2 2018 08: 20
    +2
    Quote: Monar
    That's what confuses - "Indeed, the ability of a 5,45-mm domestic bullet to ricochet from a twig has long been known."
    They showed in one of the military programs firing a burst of 7.62 and 5.45 through a dense layer of shrubbery. The scattering is the same. 5.45 did not fly apart. Yes, and if purely physics is estimated, then the author’s statement is very doubtful.
    I am not special in this matter. I would like to hear the opinion of competent people.

    From experience, I can say: 5.45 a bullet flips more often, and regarding armor penetration, the problem with 5.45 is that when a vest enters the armor plate, it more often changes direction, can slip without causing harm. About the "bounce on the twig" -not much more often than 7.62 / 39. There are many opinions, each one will tell you the pros and cons. In those units where it is possible to choose weapons, 5.45 caliber is used by most of the fighters after all, although there are 7.62 fans. In general, a weapon is a tool, and each one chooses his own specific task accordingly.
    1. Monar
      Monar April 2 2018 08: 37
      +3
      There is no question about bronik. If the same physics to estimate. My myth of "rebounding from a twig" pins. I even heard the option. Ricochet from leaflets of trees.
      Again, physics. Mixing the center of gravity (production is not perfect) by a fraction of mm for caliber 5.45 is more fatal than for 7.62.
      I have no experience of real use of weapons. Just, sorry, enrages the myth of the twig.
      1. Glory1974
        Glory1974 April 2 2018 11: 15
        +1
        My myth of "rebounding from a twig" pins. I even heard the option. Ricochet from leaflets of trees.

        This is not a myth. It just does not always manifest itself.
        In Chechnya, our unit stood in the mountains. Around the forest. At night, fleeing from thermal imaging intelligence, the militants approached our positions at 100-150 meters for the night. The commander gave the command to carry out a lumbago at night. Soldiers from the combat storage began to water the area with tracers at night and the first lumbago revealed the fact of a rebound. The whole line directed from the mountain down to the forest ricocheted, the bullets flew in different directions, directly went percent 10-15 bullets.
        I had to use machine guns PC and AKM 7,62. There were no more than 5% of this rebound weapon.
        1. Yrec
          Yrec April 2 2018 14: 12
          +3
          This is because a tracerless bullet without a core (5,56 NATO without a core, shell), so it could ricochet from a branch. An ordinary bullet with a steel core does not. Lumbago at night from sleeping militants - bullshit. If there was, then a commander and a coward. It is treated by exposing secrets with NVD and a mine signal boom.
          1. Glory1974
            Glory1974 April 2 2018 15: 52
            +2
            An ordinary bullet with a steel core does not.

            How does the core affect rebound? and what does the 5,56 NATO have to do with it?
            If there was, then a commander and a coward.

            Yes, you will not die of modesty. Conscience is enough, so categorically declare.
            It is treated by exposing secrets with NVD and a mine signal boom.

            treated with a range of measures, including these. And how can a lumbago be nonsense? Maybe shooting at war is all nonsense?
            1. Yrec
              Yrec April 4 2018 10: 13
              +3
              All the stories about “somersault” and “ricochet from the twig” arose when a 5,56 shell bullet WITHOUT a steel core appeared during the time of King Gorokh and eventually turned into an iron statement. This is because the first NATO bullets WITHOUT a steel core had stabilization in flight on the verge of stability. And an insignificant obstacle could lead to a rebound or even to a bullet toppling over. Now all the main cartridges have bullets with a steel core and are not prone to such ricochets. BUT, the tracer bullet DOES NOT HAVE a core and its stability in flight is significantly lower than usual. This primarily refers to NATO bullets, as the curvature of the rifling in the barrel is more gentle and the stability of ANY of their bullets is lower than 5,45 (our bullets are not at all inclined to such garbage). As for the ricochets tales. The fighter sees the flight ONLY of the tracer bullet WITHOUT the core and draws conclusions based on what he saw. Based on my experience, I can say that the 5,45 tracer bullet ricochet does not visually differ from the 7,62 ricochet.
              As for the lumbago at night. Do you really think that anyone will approach the positions of military security at 100-150 m for the night? And will go to bed right under the possible direct fire? Not in the ravines, not in the fold of the terrain, where the bullet is definitely not getting it? On this occasion, I will say what I know for sure. Many fighters at night on guard are very afraid (piss). And shooting in the dark is a way to relieve tension. The commander simply went about the exiled demobilization, who hung noodles on his ears. And before the superior commander, he came up with an idiotic excuse based on this noodle. And some just fell in love with this stupid way.
              At the expense of treatment - yes, a set of measures includes 10-15 of them. And undercover work, and instrumental intelligence and barriers, and a lot of things, to paint for a long time. The commander went along the most non-hemorrhoid path. Although such shooting in the mountains perfectly unmasks the firing position (otherwise on the plain of the matter) and if the enemy was competent, he would certainly use the stupidity of the commander.
              About the shoot / do not shoot in the war. Fire happens to defeat and suppress. To defeat - apparently the enemy. To suppress it, it is not a cross through, not the terrain as such, but the ELEMENTS of the terrain, which can be the shelter of the enemy. Typically, such a task is posed to machine gunners. Pencils (machine gunners) scorch on "suppression" when there is a bulk of the enemy. And it looks like this. Bk harness blindly towards the enemy by putting an automatic machine over the parapet / shelter.
              PS. A huge number of fighters in the war brings much more benefit without firing a single shot than a pencil that burns into white light like a pretty penny.
              1. Glory1974
                Glory1974 April 4 2018 10: 59
                +1
                Now all the main cartridges have bullets with a steel core and are not prone to such ricochets.

                Ricochet even 125 mm tank shell. So your reasoning about the steel core is not true. The whole question is why and under what conditions a rebound occurs.
                Do you really think that anyone will approach the positions of military security on the 100-150 for the night? And will go to bed right under the possible direct fire?

                I do not think, I know. They approached and became overnight. They were identified using thermal imagers. Not in the open, but in the mountains, not in front of machine guns, but in the forest.
                Fire happens to defeat and suppress.

                There is still a harassing fire, there is still to cover minefields, there is still a lot of fire.
                Many fighters at night on guard are very afraid (piss). And shooting in the dark is a way to relieve tension. The commander simply went about the exiled demobilization, who hung noodles on his ears.

                Where did you serve, were you talking about referring demobilization? So it’s like, insulting fought guys is not annoying? No, I understand that the Internet is not annoying. So asked rhetorically.
                And before the superior commander, he came up with an idiotic excuse based on this noodle. And some just fell in love with this stupid way.

                In general, I realized that you are a couch theorist. I have no idea about military security.
                And it looks like this. Bk harness blindly towards the enemy by putting an automatic machine over the parapet / shelter.

                And here is the answer, where do you get your military knowledge. From the TV, where the Arabs show "suppression fire." good
                By the way, write down not too lazy, for units and units providing forms and methods of combat protection using your vision
                And intelligence work, and instrumental intelligence and barriers and a lot of things, to paint for a long time.
                1. Yrec
                  Yrec April 4 2018 14: 09
                  +2
                  - in this particular case, the conversation is about a 5,45-5,56 mm small-caliber bullet in a collision about grass / bushes;
                  - So, they didn’t stand for the night, but by chance, out of ignorance. You can’t get up for a night in the mountains silently, the sound does not scatter upward, but is reflected, 100-150 m can be heard as a pebble clicked. The "secret" with PNV and burned them. I think the fighters immediately hello weighed. We definitely didn’t have any thermal imagers in that war, or did we buy it on ebay?
                  - about types of fire "not to defeat." A simple example: in the Donbass, LDNR fighters on the front line were sharply limited in BC. Why? Because they are out of boredom, merge it with an effect close to 0. To process the front edge of the enemy, they use the OS appointed by the commander.
                  - At the expense of piss / not piss. Scary in the war? YES!!!! And everyone !!!! All piss in one way or another. Those who are not afraid do not live long. This is an objective reality; it cannot be an insult. If someone says that he was not afraid in the war, then he sat out in the rear. An experienced fighter (demobilization) will not be in the mountains at night to shoot just so and will not give young.
                  - can I organize measures for the protection and defense of, say, a platoon opornik without draining the BK or is it endless? There were times when the strikers provoked an opornik to fire and just waited for the bk to end and those legs would raise.
                  - suppression of machine guns is already being conducted point-blank. Blindly, because because of the shelter under dense fire you will not lean out. The trick is to look out into the gap for half a second and evaluate the situation.
                  - what the Arabs demonstrate, I do not like. BUT, for example, I have a fight piss in us. paragraph. I am very scared of the dark openings / breaks in buildings. Forest / mountains is normal for me. Therefore, I try not to judge the Arabs.
                  “Do you suggest that you bring BUSES here?” Even a platoon commander can organize events so that on an opornik, life is acceptable. And for this, he can jabber with the locals and arrange behind the scenes for them and set the secrets correctly and sensibly set the barriers (not just mine). And most importantly, if there is a risk of surrounding positions, even a hypothetical one, "cross-country shooting" is a crime. Ammunition is either small or very small or not at all. And then either paws uphill or a grenade under your belly.
          2. ARES623
            ARES623 April 3 2018 21: 06
            +1
            Quote: Yrec
            5,56 coreless, shell

            I’m embarrassed to ask, how is it? And what's under the shell? You drive something ... SS-109 has a core like our St.35, SC has an analog of our 40P. Only tracer bullets can be steel-free and lead-filled with an admixture of 1-2% antimony. But they are usually equipped with 1 to 3. Otherwise, how will you achieve armor penetration? And about the rebounds, then there is simple physics - the larger the radius of the rotating body, the more stable it is, and vice versa ...
            1. Yrec
              Yrec April 4 2018 10: 15
              +1
              I wrote above.
              1. Yrec
                Yrec April 4 2018 10: 57
                +2
                It also depends on the shape of the bullet, the mass distribution inside it, the density and fluidity of the materials from which the bullet is made, the elastic vibrations in flight, the angular velocity of the bullet, how much the axis of rotation of the bullet coincides with the flight path, and atmospheric conditions. This is what I suddenly remembered. This is not a simple physics - the bullet is not round and inhomogeneous, not absolutely solid and does not fly in a vacuum.
        2. Droid
          Droid April 3 2018 08: 14
          0
          Quote: glory1974
          The whole line directed from the mountain down to the forest ricocheted, the bullets flew in different directions, it took 10-15 percent of bullets directly.
          I had to use machine guns PC and AKM 7,62. There were no more than 5% of this rebound weapon.

          We watch the night shots from the BMP-2 and enjoy the ricochets from the 30th second ...
          1. Bad thing
            Bad thing 21 August 2018 10: 07
            0
            1st blunt specifically, Droid,
            thanks for the video, nostalgia, it broke through to tears.
    2. fdgf
      fdgf April 2 2018 09: 01
      +4
      Quote: konstantin68
      5.45 bullet somersaults more often

      The bullet tumbles if the weapon is overheated. You need to learn to shoot. Including comprehending the shooting technique. Those. HOW to shoot.
      However, a bullet can tumble and on the quality of its manufacture with a normal, not overheated barrel. This is already a question for their manufacturer.
  11. Operator
    Operator April 2 2018 08: 38
    +3
    7,62 - nonsense, give 12,7 laughing

    Kickback / accuracy / lateral load - no, not heard.
    1. VictorZhivilov
      VictorZhivilov April 2 2018 10: 56
      0
      Yes, give each motorized rifle ASH-12! laughing

      https://topwar.ru/18040-krupnokaliber...at-ash-12
      .html
    2. Mih1974
      Mih1974 April 2 2018 12: 22
      +1
      The best anti-sniper rifle - TANK. good laughing
  12. Seraphimamur
    Seraphimamur April 2 2018 08: 42
    +1
    There is conflicting information on penetrative abilities and ricochets. From personal experience when shooting through the bushes, I did not notice much difference at a distance of up to one hundred meters. About the stopping action if I'm not mistaken: the bullet is 7.62 - 2074 KJ and 5.45 - 1764. About the injuries ... probably the easiest when the other bullet flies between the fingers.
    1. bone1
      bone1 April 7 2018 22: 41
      0
      And how the stopping action is estimated - share.
  13. fdgf
    fdgf April 2 2018 08: 56
    +3
    Quote: Roman Skomorokhov
    And at the beginning of the 2000-x were presented new cartridges: 6,5 x 39 Grendel and 6,8 x 43 Remington SPC. Both cartridges were offered as promising future military ammunition. The reasoning is clear: increasing the caliber provides better ballistics and more reliable target destruction as compared with the standard 5,56 x 45 cartridge, with relative preservation of the recoil momentum.

    1. Which ballistics is better? Small arms use its three types. AND ALL THESE TYPES of ballistic for cartridges of 6,5-6,8 mm lose to ballistic of a cartridge of 5,56 mm.
    2. Just a more reliable target hit provides 5,56 mm cartridge.

    Generally an article full of alles kaput.
    The long-proven unsuitability of the caliber of 6,5 mm for mass armament of the army is being prayed. Therefore, this topic has long been forgotten by the whole world. Because this is already an axiom of shooting business.
    A cartridge of 7,62x39 mm long forgotten by the whole world was pulled from the far corner of the closet. And it talks about its supposedly "advantages."
    There is no alternative to the 5,56x45 mm cartridge for the army in the world today. Have not come up yet. They may come up with, but it will be something innovative. But by no means a primitive replacement of calibers. And in no case will there be a return to solutions that have credited themselves many decades ago and are recognized as dead ends.
    1. CRP
      CRP April 2 2018 10: 33
      +2
      Quote: fdgf

      There is no alternative to the 5,56x45 mm cartridge for the army in the world today.


      By what criteria are there no alternatives?

      Quote: fdgf
      Just a more reliable target hit provides 5,56 mm cartridge.


      The 6.8mm SPC cartridge was designed to address the deficiencies of the terminal performance of the 5.56 × 45mm NATO cartridge currently in service with the US Armed Forces. [7] The cartridge was the result of the Enhanced Rifle Cartridge program. The 6.8 SPC (6.8 × 43mm) was initially developed by MSG Steve Holland and Chris Murray, a United States Army Marksmanship Unit gunsmith, [8] to offer superior downrange lethality over the 5.56 NATO / .223 Remington in an M16 pattern service rifle with minimal loss of magazine capacity and a negligible increase in recoil. [9] The goal was to create a cartridge that would bridge the gap between 5.56 mm and 7.62 mm.
      1. fdgf
        fdgf April 2 2018 10: 36
        0
        Quote: CRP
        By what criteria are there no alternatives?

        In the category "main army cartridge of individual small arms."
        Moreover, there are not just no alternatives; they are not even visible nearby.
        1. CRP
          CRP April 2 2018 10: 44
          +1
          Quote: fdgf

          In the category "main army cartridge of individual small arms."
          Moreover, there are not just no alternatives; they are not even visible nearby.


          I asked not about the category. I asked about the criteria.
          1. fdgf
            fdgf April 2 2018 10: 55
            0
            Quote: CRP
            I asked not about the category. I asked about the criteria.

            If you know the category, then you know the criteria. Perfectly.
            I will not write an article on this subject in the commentary.
      2. fdgf
        fdgf April 2 2018 10: 51
        0
        Quote: CRP
        The 6.8mm SPC cartridge was designed to address the deficiencies of the terminal performance of the 5.56 × 45mm NATO cartridge currently in service with the US Armed Forces. [7] The cartridge was the result of the Enhanced Rifle Cartridge program. The 6.8 SPC (6.8 × 43mm) was initially developed by MSG Steve Holland and Chris Murray, a United States Army Marksmanship Unit gunsmith, [8] to offer superior downrange lethality over the 5.56 NATO / .223 Remington in an M16 pattern service rifle with minimal loss of magazine capacity and a negligible increase in recoil. [9] The goal was to create a cartridge that would bridge the gap between 5.56 mm and 7.62 mm.

        You completely in vain lay out English-speaking Murzilka.
        The phrases “to offer superior downrange lethality over the 5.56 NATO / .223 Remington in an M16” and “The goal was to create a cartridge that would bridge the gap between 5.56 mm and 7.62 mm” alone are worth it.
        The 6.8mm SPC cartridge was apparently secretly conceived as a competitor to the 5.56 × 45mm cartridge. Later, an attempt to push out a 5.56 × 45mm cartridge was made. But, of course, unsuccessful.
        So the 6.8mm SPC cartridge in the U.S. Army took the same place as the weapon on the 7,62x39 mm cartridge should occupy in the Russian army. Those. This is a cartridge for small-scale service weapons. And it is the cartridges 6.8mm SPC and 7,62x39 mm that are competitors. And 5,56x45 mm (and 5,45x 39 mm) here from no side.
      3. Grenader
        Grenader April 2 2018 13: 11
        +6
        Quote: CRP
        By what criteria are there no alternatives?

        It looks like you are in vain tearing your opponent seriously ill on the head.
        1. fdgf
          fdgf April 2 2018 14: 02
          0
          Quote: Grenader
          It looks like you are in vain tearing your opponent seriously ill on the head.

          I would follow you in your place. You need ...
    2. Glory1974
      Glory1974 April 2 2018 11: 17
      +3
      the long-proven unsuitability of the 6,5 mm caliber for mass armament of the army.

      who proved it?
      1. fdgf
        fdgf April 2 2018 11: 31
        0
        Quote: glory1974
        who proved it?

        History of weapons.
        The last such caliber was used by Italians during WW2. And then, only because they did not have time to rearm on a cartridge of normal caliber. No more people were found.
        Think it's just that?
        1. Glory1974
          Glory1974 April 2 2018 15: 55
          +2
          The latter was used by Italians during 2MB.

          A "Grendel" 6,5 mm launched into production
          Think it's just that?
          1. fdgf
            fdgf April 2 2018 16: 28
            0
            Quote: glory1974
            A "Grendel" 6,5 mm launched into production

            Why not? For some non-army goals and objectives.
  14. konstantin68
    konstantin68 April 2 2018 09: 38
    +3
    Quote: fdgf
    The bullet tumbles if the weapon is overheated. You need to learn to shoot. Including comprehending the shooting technique. Those. HOW to shoot.

    "Comrades barmalei, wait a bit, my AK is overheated, let it cool down! And then, we ask for mercy!"
  15. alex-cn
    alex-cn April 2 2018 09: 41
    +2
    In hunting shooting, the same Americans conducted experiments and came to the conclusion that when shooting in bushes, heavy medium-speed shell bullets are most effective.
    "spend 100, 200, and even 500 bullets to neutralize one enemy fighter." 10000 per one, from the experience of Vietnam.
  16. Yrec
    Yrec April 2 2018 09: 46
    +5
    The tendency to ricochet is a feature of the NATO shell, which is unstable in flight. We have a bullet with a core with greater stability and rebound from the branches of our bullet - these are fairy tales. This has been proven scientifically and practically in institutes and in the army and has been repeatedly demonstrated. Cartridge 7,62 is more effective against an unprotected target, i.e., for example, against most terrorists and all kinds of Papuans, because the stopping ability is higher. Against goals in personal protective equipment, i.e. against ALL soldiers of any modern army, he is already ineffective. Against such goals, the penetrative effect of a bullet comes to the fore. Moreover, the enemy soldier does not have to be killed, it is enough to injure him in order to remove from the battle + one to four whole fighters in order to withdraw / carry out the wounded. Wearable bk is a very serious factor, if not the main one. When fighting in a village, for example, it is decisive. Whose cartridges ended first he lost. And if you compare the shooting bursts from an unstable position of 7,62 and 5,45? Even an experienced fighter with 7,62 will get tired faster and the effectiveness of his fire will decrease sharply.
    1. tracer
      tracer April 2 2018 17: 27
      +2
      Here I agree with you one hundred percent. Although perhaps even 200!
  17. Partisan Kramaha
    Partisan Kramaha April 2 2018 09: 59
    +5
    Quote: fdgf
    Quote: Yak28
    an uncomfortable cartridge with a rim of 7,62x54 sample of 1891 could have been changed for a long time

    It could be. But in front of a large line of much more failed cartridges.
    Here, the PM cartridge began to change to the cartridge of Steam. Already good.
    Now the turn of the cartridge is 5,45x39 mm. It must be changed to 5,56x45 mm. But do not change, expensive. And the "legendary mechanism" in the automatic mode will not work with this cartridge, it is not adapted. And where to get another? This is the task of the tasks that must somehow be solved.
    And then the line will reach 7,62x54 mm.

    Regarding the inoperative Kalash mechanism from 5.56 in automatic mode, I advise you to turn to the hundredth series, where there are models for this cartridge. Yes, and some former allies under the Warsaw Treaty sawed their Kalash under it and do not blow into the mustache.
  18. myobius59
    myobius59 April 2 2018 10: 14
    +5
    Such a case, maybe a little off topic. 78 years old, the outpost, it is necessary to fill up the pig. The deputy chief shouts to the sentry on the tower, he climbs, and shoots a pig in solitary. Point-blank, meters from three to four, as if from above-side. three times. On the other hand, only the collars fly out. The pig squeals, but does not fall. The deputy says to the sentry, “Take away your little fart,” he gets his PM and coming closer, shoots his head from a distance of about a meter 2. The pig falls and dies.
    It is clear that the sentry simply could not get into the place, and yet ..
    5,45 then we just went to PW, somewhere a year or two .. In the sergeant's school in the fall of 77th, we even shot them ourselves, we just got new ones in grease. I still remember 441122 on my number.
    So there were no idle people yet. And we ran to tactics with AKM. Well, they shot at the shooting range several times, because there were a lot of old cartridges. I remember the difference in the sensations when shooting, the AK-74 after AKMS just did not seem to be felt from the word AT ALL.
    We had one captain in the squad, probably weighing 20 pounds per 100, and the complex was an inverted pyramid. So, he planted the HORSE from AK-74 ALL into the chest target from a standing position .. ALL .. How many meters are there, I don’t remember now, but as he said, he didn’t get such a number with AKM.
    1. fdgf
      fdgf April 2 2018 10: 41
      +1
      Quote: myobius59
      On the other hand, only the collars fly out.

      Poor hit. Marriage.
      Quote: myobius59
      takes out his PM and comes closer, shoots in the head

      This is another story, a different type of defeat.
      Quote: myobius59
      ALL .. How many meters are there, I don’t remember now

      But we should remember, because it is very important. Accuracy of automatic fire, and this far (very far) is not the strongest place of the AK-74, worsens significantly with increasing distance.
      1. myobius59
        myobius59 April 2 2018 11: 00
        +3
        So he shot from the line of fire, standard exercises on the chest and growth target. He shot at the chest, she is closer. Like 100 meters. Growth - further, 200 or 250.
        However, it was like an exercise at 50m.
        But even if it’s 50, you must admit that 30 bullets to the target in ONE burst must be managed.
    2. Glory1974
      Glory1974 April 2 2018 11: 23
      +3
      We shot a boar in the Argun nature reserve. 2 bullets 5,45 fell into it. When I was carving, I found one in the insides. I led the bullet, but did not lose shape.
      And a couple of years later in the mountains, the boar got a line in the 7,62 side and ran away. So where you get, this will be the effect.
      1. fdgf
        fdgf April 2 2018 11: 34
        0
        Quote: glory1974
        So where you get, this will be the effect.

        And also:
        1. Who you get into.
        2. From what you get.
        The weapon on the elephant is somewhat different from the weapon on the rabbit. Weapons per person (army weapons) are somewhere in between.
        In addition, the principle of "where you get" do not apply in high-quality army weapons. There are other damaging factors.
        1. Glory1974
          Glory1974 April 2 2018 13: 04
          +1
          In addition, the principle of "where you get" do not apply in high-quality army weapons. There are other damaging factors.

          In general, it was about the impact on the target. In the above example, 7,62 performed worse than 5,45. Therefore, not everything depends on the caliber.
          Army weapons have the concept of "accuracy", and physicians have the concept of "where to go." if in the head - medical assistance is usually provided to no one.
          1. fdgf
            fdgf April 2 2018 14: 20
            +2
            Quote: glory1974
            In the above example, 7,62 worked worse than 5,45. Therefore, not everything depends on the caliber.

            I don’t know what about the examples. But if we compare 7,62x39 and 5,45x39, then the effect on the bio-target is approximately the same.
            But 5,45 has a number of undeniable advantages, which is why 7,62x39 and got a kick in the ass from the army. The most important advantage of the 5,45x39 mm cartridge was that it allowed the creation of an automatic rifle (AK-74) instead of a self-loading carbine (AKM) for firing at long-range (further PP ranges) distances. And this is a noticeable increase in the density of AIM fire.
            Unfortunately, it was not possible to create a full-fledged infantry weapon on the "legendary mechanism" (there was no other). I had to be content, as in the case of AKM, with assault weapons. And this is one step lower (for the army it is worse) than infantry weapons.
            Quote: glory1974
            Army weapons have the concept of "accuracy", and physicians have the concept of "where to go." if in the head - medical assistance is usually provided to no one.

            About LUT (vital organs) we are not talking. Any weapon, army or hunting, is "tuned" not to this, but to the defeat of the victim's central nervous system. It is on this basis that calibers are selected, the final speed of the bullet at a certain range, etc. etc.
            These are quite complicated calculations, so the alternate calculator’s calculations in Runet openly amuse me. It seems to me that apart from the persistence of the trajectory of the bullet’s flight, they don’t know anything at all. And about the third ballistics of small arms, terminal, they never heard anything at all. However, they "do".
            And well, let them do it quietly. But in RuNet is full of pimpled "experts" who also did not hear anything about it. But they usually "patriotically reason." And their weapons are divided into "good" and "not ours." These are especially funny.
            1. Glory1974
              Glory1974 April 2 2018 16: 04
              +6
              he allowed to create an automatic rifle (AK-74) instead of a self-loading carbine (AKM)

              they do not argue about definitions, they agree on them. If you introduced your classification of weapons, which is different from the generally accepted one, then at least you tried to explain what you wanted to say.
              Unfortunately, a full-fledged infantry weapon on the "legendary mechanism"

              and what does not like the legendary mechanism? Many Western weapons have similar weapons.
              And their weapons are divided into "good" and "not ours."

              so do not be like them. Argument your point of view. So far you have succeeded: “good” and “Soviet”.
              1. fdgf
                fdgf April 2 2018 16: 46
                0
                Quote: glory1974
                they do not argue about definitions, they agree on them.

                Everything was already agreed 100 years ago. Maybe 50, I did not count.
                Quote: glory1974
                If you introduced your classification of weapons, which is different from the generally accepted one, then at least you tried to explain what you wanted to say.

                Why do I need this? I use only the generally accepted. EXCLUSIVELY by her.
                Quote: glory1974
                But what does the legendary mechanism do not like?

                Why don't you like it? Like. But it is not suitable for automatic infantry ranged weapons. Constructively.
                Quote: glory1974
                Many Western weapons have similar weapons.

                Do not exaggerate.
                Quote: glory1974
                Argument your point of view.

                So I argue.
                Already 100 times wrote that the army should not be armed with assault, but with infantry weapons. Preferably automatic.
                That on a cartridge of 5,45x39 mm due to its weakness, infantry weapons cannot be created. Even self-loading.
                That the "legendary mechanism" is not suitable for creating automatic infantry weapons. The maximum can be made self-loading with the function of the built-in maximum of a carbine-machine gun. Those. such an advanced AKM. It is produced in small series, called the AK-101.
                What is not clear?
  19. John22
    John22 April 2 2018 10: 34
    +2
    The caliber of the cartridge should be chosen by the army based on the recommendations of the special forces. A normal weapon chambered for 7,62 mm for automatic fire (if necessary) should make the industry without clinging to the AK. It is impossible to become attached for centuries to one design. Take the top-mounted frame with butterfly valves (used by Sudaev for the first time) and the store’s connection. With the rest you have to look and try. As the Swiss did in their SIG SG 550. The same properties with the best quality. And to shoot it is necessary to train fighters and not to spare ammunition. It seems to me.
    1. Droid
      Droid April 3 2018 08: 22
      +1
      Quote: John22
      The size of the cartridge should be chosen by the army based on the recommendations of the special forces

      Garbage cannot be a recommendation.
      Quote: John22
      A normal weapon chambered for 7,62 mm for automatic fire (if necessary) should make the industry without clinging to the AK.

      I already wrote that garbage can not be a recommendation?
      Quote: John22
      And to shoot it is necessary to train fighters and not to spare ammunition.

      All world experience says that it is useless and leads to nothing but meaningless expenses.
  20. andrey-ivanov
    andrey-ivanov April 2 2018 10: 41
    +2
    If there is any development (real) in personal weapons, then this is hardly an enlargement of caliber; rather a reduction to sub-caliber; a rod of high strength and heavy metal, launched at the highest possible speed for personal weapons.

    And the stopping effect of such a "rod" will be no. And it’s not a fact that the total mass of a cartridge with a bullet of “heavy” metal will be lower than that of a conventional one. This is the question of the number of wearable ammunition.
  21. myobius59
    myobius59 April 2 2018 10: 42
    +5
    I want to add more.
    We fired a lot, and I was very good at cutting off 1 cartridge. And therefore, in the exercise, I almost always got more rounds of ammunition than others. True, this was not welcomed, and the officers were not allowed to shoot single when firing in line, the cut-off should be at least 2 rounds. But after all, the translator then stood on the “automatic” one, and against the general background the shooting director could not always understand that I was shooting solo. Therefore, my results have always been "excellent". . And it was hard to find fault.
    So I think that in addition to conducting military operations in populated areas, where much happens UNEXPECTED AND SHORT, in a battle on the ground, burst shooting is not necessary, and moreover, it is harmful, it affects accuracy, and leads to a large consumption of ammunition.
    Of course, there may be different situations, and yet in most cases the ACCURACY of fire, IMPORTANT DENSITY.
    After all, if EVERY soldier had incapacitated ONLY ONE of his opponent, the war would have ended very quickly.
    1. beeper
      beeper April 2 2018 11: 46
      +6
      Comrade Myobius59, conducting aimed fire in a battle is a sign of a very stable psyche and high training of a fighter, which is inherent in a few!
      Back in Soviet times, in military literature, whether domestic or imported, I came across an interesting statement that only about 10%, or even less, of the total number of defending shooters lead targeted fire in the attacked trench! The rest just shoot "in the direction" smile.
      I had to hear from the front-line soldiers and read in their memoirs how they made them kick up to the parapet, from the bottom of the trench put up the barrel of the rifle and shot “in the white light”, such “separate comrades” ...
      And so, yes, if at least half of the shooters fired aiming, then the loss of personnel of the enemy infantry precisely because of the fire of small arms would be much, much higher, specifically, in the total damage from the impact of all types of weapons.
      Not without reason is it precisely aimed sniper fire that acts so depressingly even on seasoned infantry fired more than once in battles. IMHO
      hi
      1. myobius59
        myobius59 April 2 2018 17: 42
        +3
        Quite right, I completely agree with you. I wanted to write this at the end of my comment, but I was too lazy. This is very clearly shown in the film with Pevtsov "Sniper. The weapon of retaliation."., Where a dozen snipers in Stalingrad thwarted the advance of the German company. This is of course a feature film, but based on real events. Such a case really was. It seems that there was even a battalion, not a company, and it was not in Stalingrad.
        I wanted to say about this, that more often accuracy is IMPORTANT than fire density. And here the heavy ammunition has an advantage. Even in bulletproof vests you can get serious injuries with a heavy bullet, and temporarily fail. Which is ultimately what is required.
        1. bone1
          bone1 April 7 2018 22: 48
          0
          And what? In the 90 years there were many Yugoslav films about partisans (I probably saw 50 pieces) - they killed Germans there, there were not so many people in Germany. And about the hero snipers with three-digit scores and to put all of them together, there weren’t so many in the Wehrmacht. Who can check how much a sniper shot there, just take a word.
  22. Vadim851
    Vadim851 April 2 2018 10: 45
    +1
    7,62 X 39 is better in my opinion. Now even the barmalei have got bronics, also behind vegetation and small obstacles 5,45 much worse. Yes, less wearable ammunition, but also a little less expense.
    NATO has even a few assault rifles and even under 7,62 X 51, the same HK417 and SCAR-H.
  23. The comment was deleted.
    1. Abalon
      Abalon April 2 2018 11: 43
      +2
      We still live in the 21st century. Internet, YouTube))) And you tell us myths how a sieve is made from rails)))
      1. abc77777
        abc77777 April 2 2018 11: 49
        0
        In 87, these listed gadgets were not in science fiction either. will have to believe a word.
        1. Abalon
          Abalon April 2 2018 11: 51
          +1
          Why do not I believe it!
          1. abc77777
            abc77777 April 2 2018 12: 01
            0
            To each his own.
      2. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok April 13 2018 01: 03
        0
        Quote: Locos
        We still live in the 21st century. Internet, YouTube))) And you tell us myths how a sieve is made from rails)))

        only youtube forget to tell you from what steel the rails were taken for filming, but there are a lot of them, and the type of bullet is far from always being truly voiced ...
  24. Des10
    Des10 April 2 2018 11: 23
    +3
    "Indeed, the ability of a 5,45-mm domestic bullet to ricochet from a branch has long been known. "
    who knows how long it has been known whether the author has more weighty arguments?
    But, we take the word.
    But I didn’t have ricochets when shooting from the AK-74M, especially --- "from the branch" laughing , I understand, the author’s scientific term, but if it weren’t for laboratory tests or a rebound test from K. R. Rancho, then at least numerous complaints from users would be brought.
    Without a doubt, caliber 7.62 is more powerful. smile
    1. AlexMark
      AlexMark April 2 2018 18: 13
      +2
      And I heard the bike that the tile in the bathroom was removed using 5,45x39 cartridges with a bullet with a displaced center of gravity, well, at least it was indicated that the cartridge was not easy))) 5-10 bullets were removed tile completely))) BRED! They are certainly not from the leaf, but they could change the trajectory from the twigs, but there are no these cartridges with such bullets) These speculations have been for more than half a century. Exactly the same stories went about the M16 sometime, let's not produce nonsense.
  25. groks
    groks April 2 2018 12: 34
    0
    Summary: "There is no money, but you hold on" (c).
    And they started complaining back in Vietnam. Americans ess. Up to the impossibility of using PBS and expansion joints.
    who knows how long it has been known whether the author has more weighty arguments?

    The author believes that this is inherent in a certain caliber. This is not true. Here the Americans got out of the situation by simply increasing the steepness of the rifling at 5.56. Weapons, not ammunition, of course. wink
    1. AlexMark
      AlexMark April 2 2018 18: 15
      +1
      Well, then the Belgian bullet is still recognized as the best, so it’s not just in the threading process.
      1. groks
        groks April 3 2018 09: 31
        +1
        The precession of a bullet is determined by the rotation speed attached to it. This is determined by the steepness of the rifling in the trunk. Those. no need to change the design of weapons or ammunition.
  26. VictorZhivilov
    VictorZhivilov April 2 2018 14: 18
    +1
    So, it seems like certain trends have already been outlined. It remains only to streamline the nomenclature of ammunition according to these trends. smile

    https://topwar.ru/132055-obzor-boepripasov.html
  27. Cananecat
    Cananecat April 2 2018 14: 50
    +2
    You can argue endlessly about the benefits of calibers, but only a large-scale clash will put everything in its place, but since it does not appear in the foreseeable future, your argument is endless in essence. )))
    ... but personally I am for 7.62 × 39 ... hi
  28. brn521
    brn521 April 2 2018 15: 15
    +6
    If you shoot in bursts from unstable positions and rely on statistics, then 5,45x39. If you shoot aiming single, then 7,62x51 (not 7,62x39). But this situation happens much less frequently. More often it is required to shoot a lot and in motion, therefore 5,45x39 is in the lead. It’s better to hit 5,45 once than 7,62 never.
    7,62x39 is still a compromise. For its caliber, the cartridge is rather weak, which affects ballistics. But both he and the weapons for him are the best in terms of price / quality ratio. Small-caliber cartridges are more demanding on the level of production and operation. They tolerate dirt, bends, potholes, backlash and tolerances worse. Need better trunks, because higher pressure of powder gases and higher wear due to increased bullet speed. As a result, 7,62x39 and all kinds of AKM clones throughout history have been packed by far more people than 5,45 and 5,56 combined. And 7,62x39 still leads in the geography of distribution and the number of users. But this is due to poverty and not because of the exceptional qualities of 7,62x39. For example, Gabriel Suarez https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug_edVmT6SU advises studying AK, because wherever it is, there are always AKs and cartridges for it.
    As for 5,56x45. This cartridge is designed for a long and massive rifle barrel. Whereas now, combat clashes in urban conditions and using vehicles and armored vehicles play a much more important role. Because of this, the cartridge is forced to be used abnormally, in weapons with shortened and lightened trunks of 40 and even 30 cm. Under such conditions, the advantage is 5,45x39, which is just designed for such trunks.
  29. erased
    erased April 2 2018 16: 28
    +3
    There is an interesting cartridge in the USA - 300 AAC Blackout. 7,62 x 35. This is their version of our 7,62 x 39. It has good characteristics.


    If our “wise men” would create a new type of gunpowder, slightly change the sleeve in the form of a 5,45 x 39 cartridge and improve the bullet itself, then the new cartridge could surpass not only 7n24 and 7n39 in penetration, but also become equal to them in accuracy.
    This is what you need to create first. And then a weapon. But with the gunpowder in the Russian Federation strained, especially with new ones.
    And the fact that 7,62 love more than 5,45 is a fact. Although not 100%.
    1. KP8789
      KP8789 April 2 2018 18: 16
      +1
      300 AAC Blackout is their version of our 7,62 x 39, but it is not widely used, unlike our "seven", including in the USA. It is usually used mainly in the civilian market.
      You are right about gunpowder, there is such a problem. Changing the sleeve and the shape of the bullet will not give special results. We get the same 7,62 x 39. The laws of physics cannot be fooled. To date, there is no alternative to 5,45x39, neither in terms of the totality of characteristics, nor in wearable ammunition.
      7,62 love more on the Internet, but in real life they choose 5,45x39.
      1. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok April 13 2018 00: 57
        0
        Quote: KP8789
        To date, there is no alternative to 5,45x39, neither in terms of the totality of characteristics, nor in wearable ammunition.

        have long been there, and it's 6,5x39.
  30. Freeman
    Freeman April 2 2018 19: 01
    +1
    After all, in which case, the wrong army wins, which is armed with modern ammunition with cool bullets, but the one whose soldiers can afford to spend 100, 200 and even 500 bullets to neutralize one enemy fighter. This is exactly the option when quantity decides.

    myobius59 Today, 10:42
    Of course, there may be different situations, and yet in most cases the ACCURACY of fire, IMPORTANT DENSITY.
    After all, if EVERY soldier had incapacitated ONLY ONE of his opponent, the war would have ended very quickly.

    "Military historical" bike.
    By the beginning of World War I, Switzerland had a tiny army, but the country's inhabitants were traditionally part of the militia and were skilled shooters.
    In 1912, German Kaiser Wilhelm II asked: "Well, what will a quarter of a million militias do against my army of half a million?" They answered him: "They will fire two shots and go home."
  31. Curious
    Curious April 2 2018 21: 58
    +3
    Interestingly, in the future, the site has no plans to invite at least once a month or two professionals to cover such and similar issues. Maybe someone from the same
    "VOENMEKHA" named after D.F. Ustinov agreed, for example. Not all the time there’s an Internet fiction collection to publish.
    1. VeteranVSSSR
      VeteranVSSSR April 2 2018 23: 24
      +1
      Yes, the opinion of a real specialist would not be very disturbing.
      Here I read comments and before my eyes either writers or shooters. I attribute myself to shooters. Many people talk about a ricochet. From my personal experience, there’s night shooting, that AKM, that PC, and tracers almost 90 degrees into the sky and left the branches and from grass. An unforgettable sight !!!
      One gets the impression that many writers draw their knowledge from rollercoats and other people's comments. Chest target-100m, growth (falling) -200m, machine gun (double) -250m.
      And what's the difference, by and large, 7,62 or 5,56 ,, .. the Cossack will catch up ... '' ???
  32. d1975
    d1975 April 2 2018 22: 55
    +3
    Quote: Mih1974
    Yeah and ohrinilard dough on his release and nutrition fool . You (and others) in the second glaze write “win those to whom there will be a lot and cheap.” A good example is Ukropia, which simply had monstrous reserves and its own Ukrainian SSR and ZGV, only 4 years of war has passed (albeit of low intensity) and there has already been talk of a lack of ammunition belay
    At the same time, also pay attention to WHAT they use in current conflicts - EVERYONE who had a free choice uses Kalash. good Whoever says bad things about them, but this is the best option for weapons and supplies. bully
    Let's be frank - wouldn’t the American military-industrial complex lobby be happy to sell M-16, M-4, or AR-15 to every “barmale”, and then sell cartridges to them in billions? Yes, they would be ready to torture their president with soldering irons for such a gift of fate, but the problem is precisely BABLE. sad And when it comes to the real "bookkeeping of war", then it is "toad and strangling." If I am not mistaken with all the tricks of the West for the "convolution" of my rifle, one feature in the world is increasing the indicator "the number of rounds per killed."
    The war of one big country against another is a huge expense "spread out" over the years of peaceful life and accumulation of reserves, this harm is not so expensive, until there is a danger of exhaustion of reserves. But all sorts of partisan, Barmalean, etc., as it is fashionable now, "mediated wars" (that is, by proxy) are expensive. Even the first estimate of online stores gives a difference of 15 times belay negative . Sorry, but for a real war - this is unacceptable, especially when you consider that the cartridges are far from the only costs of the war.

    You know, I agree with you, one thing is not clear, they don’t know how to read! Browsers. The site is smaller ((((((.
    1. d1975
      d1975 April 2 2018 22: 57
      +1
      It’s clear about the caliber and the hedgehog, who will carry the weight, well, everything is simple, the entire BC and the mountains, then many of these thoughts diminished. fool
  33. Prussia
    Prussia April 3 2018 08: 26
    0
    In Syria, the AK fighters have a caliber of 5,45! Those fighters that lit up with AK in caliber 7,62x39 in their appearance, MTR or even some other ... These could take their barrel with them! !!! Well, it’s possible as an experiment which one was allowed to shoot. I think they brought their own. Fashionable now, all icp ...
    About caliber 5,45 and all the rumors about him and his early brother are best "chewed" in the program - "Military Acceptance" because "Star".
  34. Savignon
    Savignon April 3 2018 08: 48
    +1
    “whose soldiers can afford to spend 100, 200 and even 500 bullets to neutralize one enemy soldier” - strictly speaking, these are no longer soldiers, but mob of mother's children mobilized from mother’s skirt.
    I recommend that you carefully read the memoirs of specialists in sabotage, reconnaissance and subversive activities deep behind enemy lines - that is, with the partisans. The warlords of Kovpak, Saburov, Ignatov, Linkov, and many, many other warlords of the Heroes of the Soviet Union of the Stalin era, fighters had different ammunition at different times, but the ammunition was spent on each Hitlerite reasonably and economically, tactically winning any overrun of cartridges, regardless of the supply by airplanes ammunition or the presence of trophy. I will immediately dismiss any objections to this issue, since the effectiveness of regular partisan formations is extremely high - one thousand partisans during the war years destroyed five to six or seven thousand manpower of the Nazis and their minions.
    By the way, such effectiveness of the front-line soldiers was not available to the Red Army. One of the reasons is that people very brave, reliable, united came to work in the rear. What can not be said about the entire Red Army.
    It is about the consumption of 100 or 200 rounds per Hitlerite is unthinkable. In the context of the modern total war, which the West is preparing for with Russia, conversations about such a huge expenditure of ammunition are just as unthinkable. In the event of a possible separation from the rear support, it will be necessary to be able to fight on land with the limited ammunition of each fighter.
    Otherwise, the partisans always had a constant shortage of explosives. This is explained by the total mine-subversive activity in all communications used by the enemy to support the front. The speed with which the Nazi train flew downhill along with rails and bridges was unprecedented, so supplies of explosives were not always enough, sometimes they had to use a trophy.
    1. VeteranVSSSR
      VeteranVSSSR April 3 2018 22: 30
      +3
      Do you want me to tell you a story that was told to me by a person whom I believe more than myself, his prada is no longer among us. So, my father was born in 1924, he was partisan 42/44, was captured in 43, but very successfully fled from Trostenets (this camp was near Minsk). Since the fall of 44 years in the ranks of the Red Army.
      The first-person story: the war ends, Berlin Park. I go out from behind a tree and see that a German is walking at me at 20-30, he notices me, picks up a machine gun and starts shooting at me, and I stand as if enchanted, and he shoots and shoots ... and I stand and watch. The mine explosion brought me to my senses and I start shooting at him from my machine gun. I shoot and he shoots at me and we look into my friend’s eyes. It seemed that time stopped while the German did not fall and did not shut down the PPSh, it turned out to have shot the disk completely. Completely !!! from 30 meters !!! 70 rounds !!!
      believe me, this person can be trusted.
    2. The comment was deleted.
      1. The comment was deleted.
  35. iouris
    iouris April 3 2018 10: 52
    0
    Two steps to the left, two steps to the right, a step forward and two back. As the ancients said: everything flows, everything changes ... for the worse.
  36. geniy
    geniy April 4 2018 09: 55
    +1
    In my opinion, a modern bullet is simply obliged to penetrate body armor, and preferably also thin armor of armored personnel carriers and other means, or to hit the enemy behind cover in the form of a brick, concrete, or wooden wall. But for this it’s not at all necessary to increase the caliber — that is, one does not have to try to move from 5,45 to 7,62 and higher — on the contrary, it is necessary to increase the armor penetration of the bullet. And not at the expense of expensive and rare metals in the form of tungsten or uranium, but simply increasing the length of the bullet and thereby increasing its load on the frontal area. To eat, it is desirable to bring the length of the bullet, for example, to 10 calibers instead of modern 5 calibers. True, with an increase in the length of the ammunition, its instability in flight arises. It has long been verified that shells with a length of 10 calibers are unstable and begin to tumble in flight. But this shortcoming is easy to eliminate: it is enough to just make the back of the bullet out of light material - for example, from some kind of plastic. If the back of the bullet becomes light, then its center of gravity will move forward, and the stability of the bullet will increase.
    But then the problem arises: how to place a long bullet in the cartridge? After all, if you use the usual type of bullet attachment in the sleeve - only the bottom, then I suggest half the length of the bullet - completely drive its entire back into the sleeve until it stops against the very bottom of the sleeve. Of course, the volume of gunpowder in the sleeve will decrease slightly from this, but you can also make the back of the bullet cone-shaped - that is, so that it takes up less than the useful volume of the sleeve. Of course, the volume of gunpowder will still decrease, however, due to an increase in the length of the bullet, its load on the frontal area will increase, which means that armor penetration will increase.
    But here, some experts may recall that the designers are striving to make bullets with a small load on the area - for example, pistol bullets of 9 mm caliber - the area is large, and the speed of the bullet is small - they say this gives a great bullet stopping the enemy. But it has already been proven that one bullet does not completely kill a person and stop (especially in bulletproof vest). Therefore, I offer long and thin bullets. So that they could easily pierce a person through and through (and would not tumble in it), but on the contrary, would pierce a person like a steel needle or pierce a piece of oil with an awl. But then the wounds in a person will not be so painful, and in most cases they can be easily healed if the bullets do not tumble in the human body.
    Yes, that's it! I offer relatively HUMAN bullets! That is, not to kill a person for sure - so that with torn internal organs and broken bones he would die thrown into the field, and if he was injured by a humane bullet he could reach the first-aid post. You understand that even a slight non-fatal through wound will still force a person to heal, that is, the state should spend money on its cure. This is better than a simple kill on the battlefield. Therefore, I propose the use of humane long and thin bullets 5,45mm long 10 calibers.
  37. Forever so
    Forever so April 4 2018 22: 53
    0
    Where does the potential come from if all the pasta factories are equipped with modern Western equipment that is not able to produce cartridges, and all the lines capable of this are dismantled and sold for scrap. According to the plan, Russia should have neither human nor technical potential. By the way, the sale of cartridges 7.62 * 39 from stock depots in amers, shouting about their current irrelevance, is on the same topic. .
    1. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok April 13 2018 00: 48
      +1
      Quote: Forever so
      Where does the potential come from if all the pasta factories are equipped with modern Western equipment that is not able to produce cartridges,

      what cartridges? listen to less fairy tales, and think more yourself.
  38. shinobi
    shinobi April 5 2018 08: 47
    0
    We need a new concept of weapons under 7,62. Kalash is good for everyone, but it is an automatic of "big battalions", in modern conflicts it no longer meets all the requirements.
    1. bone1
      bone1 April 9 2018 19: 40
      0
      And the arguments can be? -What is the machine of "big battalions"? - and what are the requirements of modern conflicts?
  39. SASHA OLD
    SASHA OLD April 9 2018 20: 41
    0
    I and our entire unit had 7.62, I personally served with AKMS, it was believed that 7.62 was needed in intelligence
  40. kontrobas
    kontrobas April 10 2018 14: 07
    +1
    Did the author serve in the modern army in general? If so, then he would know that the 7,62 caliber did not go anywhere and was used in units where work with PBS 5,45 was necessary at subsonic speed and did not provide the necessary energy to hit targets. Accordingly, the AK-15 and AEK-973 will be used for the same purposes, and not as the author suggests fully together with 5,45 assault rifles.

    The article is trash.
  41. Arkady Gaidar
    Arkady Gaidar April 12 2018 18: 33
    +1
    The author poured something in one pile and raisins and cockroaches. He began with machine guns promising for the troops, switched over to why four types went for testing, and finished by examining the caliber of weapons. Moreover, he didn’t go anywhere, everything is superficial. Personally, I hoped that after a good description of the aircraft theme, the author will present something sensible here as well. Wrong.
    It is worth recalling that the penetration ability of 5.45 caliber bullets up to about 600 meters is not inferior to 7.62. And at 200 it even surpasses meters, due to the higher speed of the bullet. 5.45 punches worse when the bullet core is not red-hot! And wounds, as practice has shown, from small-caliber cartridges, often even more serious than from the 7.62, due to somersault of a light bullet. About ricochets, so 7.62 also ricochets, just the angles are smaller, again due to the larger weight of the bullet. But wearable ammunition and firing accuracy are much more important than penetration. If the cartridges run out, then what, with stew, or with cobblestones of enemies to throw? And having fired the 5.45 lineup, there will be dispersion, but for a trained fighter all the bullets will fall nearby, increasing the probability of hitting.
    In general, not an article but a vinaigrette.))
    1. aloleggry
      aloleggry April 18 2018 15: 39
      0
      In the second year of service, he earned 2 in the first exercise. Horseradish in the trenches, machine gun nest, growth figure. 12 rounds. Stuck in three rounds, but it was necessary that it was short. It all depends on the training of a fighter. Although not only. A good soldier will not compose a symphony; a good composer will not hit the mark.
      1. Arkady Gaidar
        Arkady Gaidar April 18 2018 18: 08
        0
        Yes, I completely agree with you, a professional soldier is as expensive as a professional composer. But I do not think that there will be a return in machines to 7.62, as the main caliber. First, on the battlefield, the main damage, for more than 100 years, has been caused by high-explosive fragmentation weapons. And secondly, the flash of a shot with a low-pulse cartridge is much smaller than that of the 7.62x39. And this means that already from a distance of 300 meters and further, it becomes difficult to detect the arrow. This means that there is less chance that they will injure or kill.
        So the article by this author is largely sucked from the finger. Of course, large arms companies and concerns are promoting their developments, creating loud advertising for them. But armies often use proven means, for it is a matter of survival and victory. So there are no prerequisites for a change of calibers upwards.
  42. 4thParasinok
    4thParasinok April 13 2018 00: 44
    0
    when will the opportunity to minus articles be returned again? Such phrases
    Indeed, the ability of the domestic 5,45-mm bullet to ricochet off the branch has long been known. NATO’s ammunition is no better.
    American soldiers began complaining about their ammunition back in Afghanistan. Ricochets and insufficient stopping action.
    immediately show that a person writes about what he does not know. The novel does not know that over the past 30 years the nomenclature of cartridges has long changed, and as a result, the stability of cartridges. And the Americans back in the 70s took as a basis a cartridge with a s109 bullet (if memory does not fail). Both we and Amers now have a question with accuracy at a distance of more than 300 meters and punching action. The author does not know that in Afghanistan there is a problem with breaking through any weapon with a caliber of less than 50 mm, there even 30 mm shells get stuck in the mounds, and the rock is even more difficult to penetrate.
    I didn’t even read further, it makes no sense.
  43. aloleggry
    aloleggry April 18 2018 15: 25
    0
    Quote: fdgf
    He even works with a cartridge of 5,45x39 mm with difficulty. If we are talking about fully automatic weapons

    Easy to work. Even after falling into a clay puddle and jerking the shutter with his foot, the first shot was, the second shot manually, and then the machine went. Zinc cartridges into the air - no misfires. (Washed off for a long time :))
  44. Devil13
    Devil13 20 March 2020 12: 18
    0
    But can’t it be replaced not with intermediate shit, but with a normal rifle cartridge, like 308 or 7,62x54?