Military Review

Kemerovo syndrome: ship rats and lone heroes

153
It seems that mankind has entered a zone of turbulence, the hallmark of which was an unprecedented political confrontation, a fierce struggle for resources, local wars that broke out here and there and terrible man-made disasters. Russia was in the active phase of all these processes. We have everything - and the rapidly unwinding spiral of military conflicts, and local wars, and incessant accidents and catastrophes. We live on a "nightmare schedule." We have nothing week - something emergency. Either the plane will collapse, the garbage dumps will ignite, poisoning everything around it, the huge shopping center will burn down, burying dozens of children's lives under its rubble. Unfortunately, the civilized Moloch is running and gaining momentum. Change this tragic move stories is impossible. But you can change our attitude towards him.




Rats from a sinking ship

Each tragedy needs detailed debriefing. I hope he goes now. I do not have the slightest desire to interfere in the process - they are experts in their field. My post is about the human factor.

Apparently, the first to leave the burning center were those responsible for its preservation - the local guards and the Chopovs. The building entrusted to them was burning, but they themselves were by no means eager to save someone’s life. They saved their tanned skins. And not one remembered the small children locked in the third cinema hall.

I was not a guard. But, being a soldier, he took part in mass events - stood in a cordon, etc. And before each release on duty, the officers thrust in our heads a simple and revealing truth: places of mass gathering of children in an object controlled by you are a zone of your heightened responsibility, a subject of special attention. And if something happens to them, something happens to you, soldier. At the demob you just will not go. Or you will go, but from another state house and in a different capacity. And all your subsequent life will go somersault.

Threats acted. We in the service never took our eyes off these Kinders. And they sighed with relief when they and their parents went home. I believe that any sane certified guard must also act the same. He must clearly understand where in the area of ​​his responsibility and control the place of mass gathering of children. And how he will save them, happen force majeure. If he does not understand this - he is not a security guard. He is a body in black form. And his entire chop - rabble, a bunch of the same "bodies". These are the "bodies" and guarded the Kemerovo center. And the legs of these bodies swiftly carried them to the exit, when a disaster struck.

And really very well ... A real security guard, like the captain of a sinking ship, must be the last to leave his post - when he is convinced that he has done everything possible to save other people's lives. And to save in the first place children and women, and not his tanned skin.

There was nothing like that in Kemerovo. The guards and chopovtsy race to run out of the building enveloped in flames, like rats from a sinking ship. Meanwhile, in the halls of the shopping center, little angels choked and died of suffocation ...

"Persuader"

But enough about rats. They now live with it. Although their rat souls will surely digest this horror. Children were killed not only by them. The death sentence was issued to the scholars, without even realizing it, those idiots who closed the door in the third cinema hall. How many were in that hall and who they were - the investigation will figure it out. Or will not understand. But they were. They were the ones who locked the doors. They did not let anyone out of the third hall. They admonished the rest: calmly, kids, we will sit with closed doors and wait for firefighters. So says the instruction. Or maybe they stopped someone by force: they are adults, and the kids are weak creatures. And the children believed them, these uncles and aunts. They are used to the fact that adults always wish them well ...

And the firemen did not come. Late firefighters. And mindlessly following the instructions led to a terrible tragedy. By the way, I fully admit the idea that these "exhorters" themselves were ultimately saved. Well, jumped out of the hall at the last moment. And now, during interrogations, they deny everything and everyone - and what else do they have to do?

From here - several conclusions. The first. It seems that modern instructions themselves are idiotic, and they are written by idiots. And at least morally outdated. It was necessary to close not the doors, but the windows. And as soon as the smoke came down - to save the children and run with them to the exit. The "accusers" did everything exactly the opposite.

The second. You will encounter a force majeure situation with such an “exhorter” - beat him. Take down with the doors. Knock out with window frames. For they are the messengers of death. And their natural idiocy can be your sentence.

Third. We need to change not only the instructions. Here the very psychology of man needs to be changed. After Kemerovo, the public ideological paradigm should be different in principle. Life attitudes are changing. We must not wait, but act. We must not close, and demolish all the doors. Together with the doors - to carry out "exhorters". One should not sit, gasping in clouds of smoke, but break free - where there is air, light and hope. Movement in such cases is life. Humility and humility - death.

Lonely heroes

And the last conclusion is about single characters. They were also. Of the two cinema halls, the teachers promptly withdrew all the children entrusted to them. There are reports that two Uzbek migrants, two “Ravshan and Jamshud”, which over one of our federal channels have been mocking with mock persistence over the years, have been rescued in the confusion over the years. Both teachers and migrants did not run like rats from a ship. They were just people. Humans - with a capital letter.

And one more conclusion. Before each of us, sooner or later the question of choice will arise. Someone will become a hero. Someone is a rat. Someone remains an exhorter. Although, as our battalion commander said, homeland needs heroes, not geeks.

And the last. Among other things, in the age of man-made disasters, each of us, adult men, should be ready for anything. And know how to behave in a given situation. And it's not even about everyone re-reading the rules of conduct in case of fire (although this is extremely important) and began to carry wet wipes in his bag (if you put them to your lips in time, they will give you a few precious seconds of life in the thickest smoke ). Just a modern postmodern man should be prepared for stress. And to be able to make non-standard decisions - to save their lives and the lives of others, first of all - women and children.

For example, a stereotype of behavior in an unusual stressful situation that happened several times in the life of one person. This man's name is Shavarsh Karapetyan.

Kemerovo syndrome: ship rats and lone heroes


Case on the track

1974 year, Republic of Armenia, highway Tsakhkadzor - Yerevan. The bus travels thirty passengers, including athletes (they were returning from the charges). On a steep slope, the motor went berserk. The driver stopped the bus and got out of the cabin - to delve into the engine. Apparently, he did not guess to raise the “handbrake” (or he did not work at all). Uncontrollable bus started off and rolled down, quickly picking up speed. Water polo master Shavarsh Karapetyan was sitting next to the driver’s cabin. Seeing that seconds separate all of them from falling into the abyss, he jumped as if he had been stung and several times turned to elbow into the glass wall separating the driver’s seat from the passenger compartment. Shallow glass fell on the driver's mat. Shavarsh climbed into the hole, grabbed the steering wheel and spun it sharply to the right. Instead of the seemingly inevitable fall into the abyss, the bus turned in the opposite direction and gently stuck into the side of the mountain. When asked how he could do this trick, Karapetyan answered with a smile: “It’s just that I was the closest.” Like, all the other passengers of the bus, no doubt, would have done the same thing, but he just turned out to be closer. Personal modesty did not prevent personal courage.

Rescue diver

Karapetyan’s trials did not end there. Two years later, fate prepared him another surprise. 16 September 1976, Shawarsh and his brother made a morning jog along the Lake of Yerevan. At that moment, in their eyes, the trolley bus, full of people, for some reason, got off the bridge and crashed right into the lake. The brothers rushed to save people. At a depth of 10 meters with zero visibility, Shavarsh broke the trolley bus’s rear window with his feet and began to dive over and over again, snatching one of the passengers with powerful jerks and pulling them out to the surface. Here, the rescuer picked up, dragged to the shore and vigorously revived his brother. On that day, Shavarsh tore 46 passengers out of the inevitable death of 20 (XNUMX of them were later brought back to life).

In one of his visits to depth, the rescuer pulled not a person to the surface, but a cushion from the trolleybus seat. According to him, she then dreamed of him at night for several years - after all, instead of her, he could have saved the life of another person ... The whole body of the diver was cut by fragments of a broken window. After these spontaneous rescue efforts, Karapetyan became seriously ill with pneumonia. Later the disease was complicated by sepsis. The rescuer spent a month and a half in the hospital. After inflammation in the lungs formed adhesions. Every breath was given to him with great difficulty. His physical condition dramatically weakened. With a great sports honored master of sports, 11-multiple world champion, 13-multiple European champions and seven-time champion of the USSR had to finish. Such was the price the athlete paid for the lives he had saved.

Fire

But Karapetyan’s misadventures did not end there either. 15 February 1985 of the year in Yerevan sports and concert complex, located on Tsitsernakaberd hill, a fire broke out. By the will of fate, Shavarsh once again found itself in the epicenter of a fire. He tossed around the center, pulling people out of the fire. In the process of salvation, he received numerous injuries and multiple burns.

Summary

That's all. Neither add nor subtract. Disasters have been, are and will be. There will be heroes in them, there will be scum in them. But I would like Shavarshay in them to have more And less rats and "exhorters". Or was not at all. And then our little angels will run on the earth with joyful, full of childish laughter, and not go to heaven in agony ...
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  1. 210ox
    210ox April 2 2018 05: 37
    +16
    Yes, as always. There are heroes and rats merged along the birom ... A chop who immediately self-destructed, adults who left children ..... I want to talk a little about another person. Everyone will understand about whom. His whole family died there .. . Such grief that I can’t convey ... I am sorry and sympathize with him ... Well, why do you, with manic perseverance, seek out, upload video footage to the network where people are running, crushing each other, suffocating in smoke .... This is a consequence. ..I do not understand this.
    1. Greenwood
      Greenwood April 2 2018 05: 45
      +14
      Quote: 210ox
      with manic perseverance, you seek out, upload video frames where people run, crush each other, suffocate in smoke ..
      The people need action, with special effects, so as in a movie, it was interesting to watch. All such videos collect millions of views on YouTube. The fact that this is not a movie, but sometimes people actually die on the video, the viewer is not worried. Lured by sophisticated American disaster films, he is waiting for spectacles, no matter how cynical it sounds.
      1. 210ox
        210ox April 2 2018 08: 13
        +4
        Cynically, it looks from the hands of a man whose family died.
        Quote: Greenwood
        Quote: 210ox
        with manic perseverance, you seek out, upload video frames where people run, crush each other, suffocate in smoke ..
        The people need action, with special effects, so as in a movie, it was interesting to watch. All such videos collect millions of views on YouTube. The fact that this is not a movie, but sometimes people actually die on the video, the viewer is not worried. Lured by sophisticated American disaster films, he is waiting for spectacles, no matter how cynical it sounds.
      2. antivirus
        antivirus April 2 2018 09: 04
        +1
        allowed the guy to distribute the video - to calm and correct the brains after the death of his family
        1. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker April 2 2018 09: 41
          +12
          Quote: Author
          Neither add nor diminish. Disasters were, are and will be.

          "Where it is thin - there it breaks."
          There are hundreds of such centers throughout the country. And what happened in Kemerovo is the result of a chain of irresponsibility and negligence that has developed into a tragedy: from the project, to the materials used in the decoration, from the state of fire protection systems, to the training of personnel in a fire.
          It’s clear that it’s not the Kremlin that issued permits for deviations from the rules and laws. As usual, everything was decided at the level of the city and / or region.
          Personally, I was struck by something else - well, a very quick and organized reaction of the "Pravdorubov" and the defenders of all the oppressed at the rally.
          1. KAV
            KAV April 2 2018 19: 52
            +2
            Quote: stalkerwalker
            Personally, I was struck by something else - well, a very quick and organized reaction of the "Pravdorubov" and the defenders of all the oppressed at the rally.

            Exactly! Now everyone is talking mainly about the version of the faulty wiring. But, if you look at the whole picture, from beginning to end, you get a very persistent feeling of a planned provocation, with very definite goals. Somehow there are too many violations + a lot of dead + lightning reaction of the "protesters", with microphones, loudspeakers ... Moreover, the amazing speed of distribution of fakes is simply amazing.
            But, most of all, it infuriates that all these fake guns escaped with the banal "sorry" after the debriefing ... Look at all these *****, i.e. villains who, without a twinge of conscience, meanly and with inhuman cynicism, worked out their loot on the blood of children!
            Watch from 49:03. There are all these "homemade news heroes"!

            I believe that it is simply necessary for archi to introduce criminal liability for the dissemination of false information !!! For, this is not just a deception, it is sacrilege that can have very serious consequences for the gullible! This is sowing panic! This is a deliberate introduction of failures in the work of rescue and law enforcement services! This ... Further, only obscene words ...
      3. New Year day
        New Year day April 2 2018 12: 01
        +5
        Quote: Greenwood
        The people need action, with special effects, so as in a movie, it was interesting to watch.

        it says that this people has turned into a herd, wanting only fun. A person with a normal psyche cannot calmly watch these frames.
        Consumer society is formed. If there is no idea in society, then a hamburger and a slot machine will take this place
    2. Vladimir Ter-Odiyants
      Vladimir Ter-Odiyants April 2 2018 13: 07
      +1
      Unfortunately, Heroism and cowardice always walk side by side. This is a life axiom. And the guy seems doomed to get into emergency situations. Oh!
  2. Yak28
    Yak28 April 2 2018 06: 20
    +7
    It is not known how this or that person will behave in an emergency, someone scared, someone is not ready to risk their lives for the sake of strangers. Trained fighters can scream or betray in real battle. And so that such tragedies do not need to change the system where at home untrained migrants are building, then the worker didn’t do something because he didn’t have time, the chief agreed with the inspector, he reported that there were no serious violations. Plus all the checks are known in advance and this is usually a show. Yes, and the district police officer also probably feeds from similar shopping centers, as well as from markets, and from vegetable bases, and such a system throughout the country.
    1. raw174
      raw174 April 2 2018 07: 46
      +3
      Quote: Yak28
      And so that such tragedies do not need to change the system where untrained migrants build houses, then the worker did not do something because he didn’t have time, the chief agreed with the inspector, he reported that there were no serious violations.

      This is not a system, this is the mentality of the average Russian. That same human factor ... People in high and not very high positions take bribes (not all, there are a lot of honest ones) not from poverty, they have such a mentality ...
      Quote: Yak28
      Plus, all checks are known in advance and this is usually a show.

      No, if the inspector is decent, then this is quite an effective measure ...
      Quote: Yak28
      And probably the precinct with the police also feed from similar shopping centers, as well as from markets, and from vegetable bases

      It’s just interesting what the police feed there, especially the local police? ..
      1. Yak28
        Yak28 April 2 2018 17: 37
        +2
        As a rule, there are a lot of illegal immigrants working in markets, shopping centers, and vegetable bases, which the police generally know. Then people take bribes not from poverty, but simply because everyone does not care. In order not to take bribes, it’s necessary to shoot about 10 people on the air for bribery and take everything off at hand, others will be scared and take and give. And enter the article with confiscation of property
        There may be validity testers, but as with most workers, testers have enormous standards, this is in almost all structures of any production.
        1. raw174
          raw174 April 3 2018 06: 21
          +2
          Quote: Yak28
          In order not to take bribes, it’s necessary to shoot 10 people on the air for bribery and take everything off at hand, others will be scared and take and give.

          They shoot in China, something doesn’t help much, the shooting teams are not sitting idle ... They shot in the USSR, did it help? no!
          Quote: Yak28
          As a rule, in the markets, shopping centers, vegetable bases, there are a lot of illegal immigrants about whom the police usually know.

          Well, yes, I agree, there is a field for corrupt officials ...
  3. Stalllker
    Stalllker April 2 2018 06: 34
    +14
    Dear author, if you were not a guard and do not know the essence of the work of the private security company, then do not write what you do not know and at the same time insult people! The guard is not responsible for the life of the applicants of the protected facility, but only for the property of the Customer. As for the cinema hall, but we all went to the cinema and saw that there was a ticketer by the hall, not a security guard. So apologize for your words !!!
    1. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 April 2 2018 06: 46
      +12
      He must take people out in case of fire! As well as must extinguish it before the arrival of firefighters.
      1. bandabas
        bandabas April 2 2018 07: 00
        +3
        I do not argue. Only such fires are not extinguished by a fire extinguisher unfortunately.
        1. Ingvar 72
          Ingvar 72 April 2 2018 07: 01
          +10
          Quote: bandabas
          Such fires are not extinguished by a fire extinguisher unfortunately.

          Yes, but they simply had to bring people out.
          1. doxtop
            doxtop April 2 2018 19: 19
            +1
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            people to withdraw they were simply obliged

            Should! Must! Don't you understand !!! ??? In this world, no one owes anything to anyone for a long time! And one of the reasons ... voiced by you!
            Until each of us takes it upon ourselves to (in such situations) try to save as many lives of other people as possible, and not wait and think that someone else should / must do this for us! We will have such tragedies!
            But if every couch expert undertakes an obligation in a similar situation to save at least one ... then and (even if the same fire repeats) we will not have any dead! Don't you understand that !? Do not kick at all and anyone specific! Start with yourself! :(
            1. Ingvar 72
              Ingvar 72 April 2 2018 19: 34
              +2
              Quote: doxtop
              Start with yourself! :(

              Yes, there was no reason for this. And God forbid of course. Talking about what I would have done in this situation - I consider it superfluous. After all, even we ourselves (many of us), being sincerely confident in our actions, actually behave differently.
              Although I sincerely believe that I would not give a damn about other people's lives. Especially children. hi
      2. Stalllker
        Stalllker April 2 2018 07: 18
        +1
        Who is obliged?
        1. Ingvar 72
          Ingvar 72 April 2 2018 07: 31
          +11
          Quote: Stalllker
          Who is obliged?

          Security guard. The evacuation of visitors is the responsibility of protection in almost all shopping and entertainment centers.
          Quote: Golovan Jack
          Your "obligated" means that there is an appropriate clause in the duties of a PSC employee.

          Go to any shopping center, and take an interest at your guard at your leisure. I bet that this item is in the job description. Let’s get hacked? wink
        2. free
          free April 2 2018 10: 22
          +9
          Quote: Stalllker
          Who is obliged?

          A man is obliged! MAN! What difference does it make who he is a guard or a visitor. If there is still a conscience, he will save!
      3. Golovan Jack
        Golovan Jack April 2 2018 07: 18
        +16
        Quote: Ingvar 72
        He is obliged to withdraw people in case of fire

        Stalllker right, you are not. Your "obligated" means that there is an appropriate clause in the duties of a PSC employee. Show me this item, be ... beavers yes
        Quote: Ingvar 72
        ... must extinguish it before the firefighters arrive

        Stew - maybe, and must. Put out - definitely not required.
        That is, if not extinguished, it is not the answer. "Well, I couldn’t" (c). feel the difference stop
        And from the couch, all of you ... terminators and spider-men negative
        1. Soho
          Soho April 2 2018 07: 57
          +11
          must-not should, obliged-not obligated .... psychology of haskaskraynikov. About you and the article
          1. Golovan Jack
            Golovan Jack April 2 2018 10: 40
            +6
            Quote: Soho
            About you and the article

            On bends easier stop
        2. EvilLion
          EvilLion April 2 2018 09: 13
          +8
          That is, any employee has a clause that: a) notifies, b) proceeds to extinguish, calculations are approved, or run to perform other actions, such as evacuating people and valuables, while private security officers do not. Great security, what to say. To hell, she’s the only one she needs
      4. raw174
        raw174 April 2 2018 07: 48
        +3
        Quote: Ingvar 72
        He must take people out in case of fire! As well as must extinguish it before the arrival of firefighters.

        Not a fact, it depends on the contract and job description. Probably not...
        1. Ingvar 72
          Ingvar 72 April 2 2018 07: 51
          +4
          Quote: raw174
          Most likely no

          Tolyatti, the shopping center "Russia on the Volga" - are required. Shopping center "Nikolanvsky" - OBLIGATORY. hi
          1. raw174
            raw174 April 2 2018 08: 14
            +3
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            Tolyatti, the shopping center "Russia on the Volga" - are required. Shopping center "Nikolanvsky" - OBLIGATORY.

            I don’t argue, maybe so, but this is a purely personal matter for each contract. Employees are required by default to chop by agreement. In the end, every clause in the contract is a penny in your wallet and it all depends on the tightness of those who conclude it.
      5. Prometey
        Prometey April 2 2018 10: 46
        +1
        Quote: Ingvar 72
        He must take people out in case of fire! As well as must extinguish it before the arrival of firefighters.

        As for the withdrawal of people - most likely yes, if he was taught this. Even volunteer fire brigades DO NOT EXTEND the fire before the arrival of fire brigades, if they were created by order of the enterprise. I bet that they just weren't in the shopping center. The official can only localize the beginning of the fire with primary fire extinguishing means on an area of ​​not more than 1,5 square meters. m. In case of fire, it is forbidden to extinguish a fire by unqualified people!
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 April 2 2018 11: 10
          +5
          Quote: Prometey
          Even volunteer fire brigades DO NOT EXTEND the fire before the arrival of fire brigades, if they were created by order of the enterprise.

          You want to say that all fire extinguishers and fire hoses are needed only for professional firefighters, and you can’t approach them?
          1. Prometey
            Prometey April 2 2018 14: 48
            +3
            Quote: Mordvin 3
            You want to say that all fire extinguishers and fire hoses are needed only for professional firefighters, and you can’t approach them?

            This is not what I say, but the regulations of the Ministry of Emergencies. Read carefully again what I wrote about the area of ​​fire. Primary fire extinguishing means are necessary to extinguish the incipient fire, elementary trained people. All that the employees had to do - to help evacuate people from the building - is not in dispute.
            I’m not about protecting someone’s actions. It is simply necessary to understand that a fire as uncontrolled burning, when it goes beyond the scope of local ignition, is incredibly scary. When one third of the ordinary room in the apartment is engulfed in fire, there is only one way out - to escape. Every 20 sec the temperature in the room will increase by 50 degrees, and after 4 minutes after reaching the premises with fire it will reach 700-800 degrees.
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 April 2 2018 17: 05
              +3
              We had a small fire at our enterprise. 5 meters approximately. Now I will know that our team heroically committed illegal actions.
    2. Soho
      Soho April 2 2018 07: 52
      +19
      Stalllker (Alexey) Today, 06:34
      So apologize for your words !!!

      why apologize, balabol? For the fact that this private security company did not have the right to provide security services without a license to protect objects of mass stay of citizens? For not having the right to advise the customer on security issues? Because this private security company, like a number of others, existed solely because it belonged to the relatives of the former deputy chief of the Main Department of Internal Affairs of the Kemerovo Region? And the article’s talk is not about “should-should not”, but about the fact that while others rushed into the fire for the sake of saving children, these “guards” peacefully grazed on the street, the first to fall off the fire. So what kind of apology do you need? That these "men" survived, and teacher Tatyana Darsaliya died, going to the fire to save children? They could see the same psychology as yours - fuck, let it burn, I haven’t spelled out in the job description ...
      1. antivirus
        antivirus April 2 2018 09: 12
        +8
        everything is dumber - I tried with a specialist - a heating stove in a bathhouse - BREATHE SMOKE AND HOW WE SPEAK ABOUT THE LAME HORSE (2-3 INHALATIONS OF CHEMISTRY AND EVERYTHING) - 5-6 INSPECTIONS, MAX 8-10 WITH A RAG. THIS IS PURE firewood. 20 sec of life in motion !!!
        the guards were (kaetsya) at the entrance below, 3-4 floor who was ???
        COMPLEX OF MEASURES AND WARNINGS-PREPARATION None.
        IT IS GUILTY ALL WHO PERMITTED TO BUILD AND SAW HOW THE TC WORKED. ALL WHO UNDERSTANDS SHOULD BE CLEARLY - "CLOSE" and not cut loot
      2. Setrac
        Setrac April 2 2018 11: 40
        +3
        Quote: Soho
        while others rushed into the fire for the sake of saving children, these "guards" grazed peacefully on the street, the first to fall off the fire. So what kind of apology do you need?

        You can’t make people be brave, you are either brave or not. If these guards were not cowards, they probably would have been able to find a more worthy occupation.
        1. Soho
          Soho April 2 2018 11: 54
          +3
          Setrac (Sergey) Today, 11: 40
          If these guards were not cowards, they probably would have been able to find a more worthy occupation.

          if so ...
          I don’t know what they could become, but I know exactly who they showed themselves on March 25th. Especially when I remember that I was on this damned 4th floor with my daughter a month before the tragedy.
    3. alstr
      alstr April 2 2018 11: 10
      +5
      As for the chop.
      If we talk about private security in general, then for the most part it’s Sharashkin’s office, which collect a bunch of orders, and then they don’t understand anyone to close these facilities. Plus incitement to recycle. Some work day after day. After that, I hope it’s clear what the state of the guards is.
      Plus, the licensing system is built so that if there are no connections, then it is very difficult to pass. And with connections: he came, paid, answered questions for a tick and walk. there is no real test of knowledge. At best, the shooting will be checked.
      So it was and remains that under the police, that under the FSB, that under the Russian Guard.

      As for the private security company in Cherry, at least they can be blamed for not meeting firefighters. This is the first rule, if you called the services, you must meet them.
      Well, the passage about the property. I want to note that even if the security guard is responsible for the property, then even in this case he must make sure that EVERYONE left the premises so that THIS property could not be taken away by those remaining in the room.
      1. _Sergei_
        _Sergei_ April 2 2018 11: 43
        +2
        I handed over last year for an injury. Private security agents handed over to me. They still have change for the use of special equipment. And before firing, surrender the use of weapons. By the way, by the way, too. And then shooting. But first, passing on a computer knowledge of laws, etc.
  4. Ingvar 72
    Ingvar 72 April 2 2018 06: 48
    +5
    But the firefighters did not come. Firefighters were late.
    To firefighters the same VERY many questions.
    1. dauria
      dauria April 2 2018 12: 34
      +2
      To firefighters the same VERY many questions.


      The main question is not for firefighters. 10 years ago I saw the construction of three high-rise buildings (point building). Conventional construction by an ordinary contractor, back-office workers. Probably associated with the former governor, whose family was crushed by the construction business. 17 floors, under 50 meters. The "warming" technology - ordinary polystyrene foam (I picked up pieces myself out of interest) is fastened with a dowel with a nylon reinforcing mesh, on top of which is putty and paint. Nice, fast. Ground floor - shops for rent, up to the basement.
      They stand and wait for their “heroes” and their “cowards”. And it will be. Every 50 years, at least one apartment burned in any nearby Khrushchev. It ended as always - the apartment burns out, but the fire does not go up. Smoke, soot on the outside - yes. But not fire.
      What do you want? Run and scream - "people, give a damn about everything, tear off your house, it's a delayed death !!!" How many of them were set up .... And they are building. Similar.
      1. Awaz
        Awaz April 2 2018 15: 52
        +3
        duck, such buildings lined with polystyrene foam have already burned more than once ... They burn brutally ... But they still build it. Although, now two buildings are being built next to me and both are covered with insulation. I even saw on TV about him tests that he almost does not burn.
        1. Ingvar 72
          Ingvar 72 April 2 2018 19: 38
          +1
          Quote: AwaZ
          foam-clad buildings

          It’s okay to be tiled - In Yagodnoye we have built a whole district, "Rook of well-being", her mother. Foam houses, plastered from above.
          1. Golovan Jack
            Golovan Jack April 2 2018 19: 53
            +4
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            Foam houses, plastered on top

            High-rises, I suppose? wink
            Well, and who's the psychiatrist? laughing
            1. Ingvar 72
              Ingvar 72 April 3 2018 06: 32
              0
              Quote: Golovan Jack
              High-rises, I suppose?

              Kisa - you scribble your comments, anyway what can I say? Quite bad?
              1. Golovan Jack
                Golovan Jack April 4 2018 06: 36
                +4
                Quote: Ingvar 72
                Foam houses

                ...
                Quote: Ingvar 72
                Quite bad?

                In yes
  5. Stas157
    Stas157 April 2 2018 07: 22
    +11
    Several fatal mistakes came together, without the absence of at least one of them the Kemerovo tragedy would not have happened, or it would not have been in such numbers.
    1) Finishing the shopping center from toxic materials that emit strong and toxic smoke. (And this is after Lame Horse!)
    2) The absence of a fire alarm. (The ideal option should not be a local alarm, but connected directly to the fire and private security.)
    3) A number of elementary questions. Where are the means of automatic fire extinguishing? Why fire exits were blocked. Why didn’t the guards of the huge center manage the rescue of people? (They didn’t even open fire exits. For some reason, they forgot about the whole hall of the children sitting in it.) Why didn’t the audio alert work, why did the administration from there who did not manage the situation? Why did the first firefighters who arrived did not rush to save the children, although people begged to do so?
    The shopping center was led by people (most likely they didn’t manage at all), who let the situation go by their own accord and did not answer for anything, there was a complete mess with fire safety measures. Regional oversight bodies also did not monitor the situation, allowed this mess to be. Well, the federal authorities did nothing so that after Lame Horse such a tragedy would not be repeated again, would not conduct any kind of organizational work with regional authorities. There is a collapse of power and an inactive state system.
    1. Golovan Jack
      Golovan Jack April 2 2018 07: 25
      +8
      Quote: Stas157
      In the face of the collapse of power and an inactive state system

      "On the face", Staseg, Your desire once again to pull the Owl on the globe. No more.
      * there is - together. This is an adverb so you know. "Engineer" laughing
      1. Stas157
        Stas157 April 2 2018 07: 27
        +3
        Quote: Golovan Jack
        * there is - together. This is an adverb so you know. "Engineer"

        Thanks, corrected.
        1. Golovan Jack
          Golovan Jack April 2 2018 07: 28
          +7
          Quote: Stas157
          Thanks, corrected

          To health. You’ve fixed something else - you wouldn’t have a price wink
          But, unfortunately, this does not seem to cure sad
      2. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 April 2 2018 07: 34
        +9
        Quote: Golovan Jack
        This is an adverb so you know.

        Kisa, have you ever been taught to argue with your opponent with facts and logic? Well, of course, it’s much easier to justify it! And does not require a mind! wink It's easier to focus on a grammatical error, and voila - you seem to yourself a great wise guy. Reception from the Catechism by the way. bully
        1. Golovan Jack
          Golovan Jack April 2 2018 07: 44
          +7
          Quote: Ingvar 72
          It’s easier to focus on a grammatical error ...

          So there everything else is either completely obvious, or complete nonsense ... what is there to refute?
          Quote: Ingvar 72
          ... argue with the opponent facts and logic ...

          You see ... with a brow "on a training manual" it is useless to argue with "facts and logic." You can only poke his nose at him ... well, you understand.
          What I am doing request
          1. Stas157
            Stas157 April 2 2018 08: 20
            +7
            Quote: Golovan Jack
            So there everything else is either completely obvious, or complete nonsense ... what is there to refute?

            And it seemed to me the purpose of the forum was to discuss a topic, article. And everything else (flood, cash transfer) - complete nonsense.
            The Cherry administration (not the real owners!) And the director of the center were arrested. That is, the authorities conduct responsibility at the lowest level. It is easy to do. At the level of regional authorities, Aman Tuleyev has already taken (forced?) The responsibility - he resigned, and indicated that with such a burden in his soul he could not continue to lead. It turned out to be the most honest if it was his personal initiative.
            The federal authorities again had nothing to do with it! This could still be accepted after Lame Horse, if the feds removed the entire Perm government and put things in order throughout the country (now this is not enough). However, this did not happen, so the next tragedy, already in the Kemerovo region, became possible. Obviously, the federal government does not control the situation in its provinces, and does not take responsibility for national tragedies.
            1. Denis Obukhov
              Denis Obukhov April 2 2018 08: 59
              +3
              If Putin and his entourage doused themselves with gasoline and burned themselves in the square, would it be easier for you?
              1. dauria
                dauria April 2 2018 13: 04
                +3
                If Putin and his entourage doused themselves with gasoline and burned themselves in the square


                And Stas157 is right. The system is so built. Loyalty and loyalty of subordinates appointed from "their own". The first thing a simple craftsman learned was to keep his “distance” from his subordinates. And if he went further, he did the same. No "friends" either below or above. This is necessary for this leadership, because you need to give out not only gingerbread, but also a whip. Otherwise, a worthless little man. Shoigu fired after the "lame horse"? No. And the rest is the same - how to distribute the “whip” to the brother-in-law, godfather, just the right person. He is “his” and devoted. Loyal opportunists with the motto "crawl through" and eat by rank.
    2. raw174
      raw174 April 2 2018 08: 04
      +10
      Quote: Stas157
      Several fatal mistakes came together, without the absence of at least one of them the Kemerovo tragedy would not have happened, or it would not have been in such numbers.

      It always happens ...
      Quote: Stas157
      The decoration of the shopping center from toxic materials emitting strong and poisonous smoke. (And this is after the Lame Horse!)

      Yes, you look at home! Now all finishing materials are combustible and toxic. Linoleum, laminate, suspended / suspended ceiling, plastic panels, furniture, etc ... They (Broadcasting Company) buy the finish in the same place where we all ...
      Quote: Stas157
      Lack of fire alarm. (The ideal option should not be a local alarm, but connected directly to the fire and private security.)

      She was, but did not work, like this official version. but why is it not clear to take her to an extra-departmental ... She is being taken out to the fire and EDDS.
      Quote: Stas157
      Where are the automatic fire extinguishing means?

      I want to answer in a rhyme ... in the same place as the alarm, it does not work ... It's the fault of specific people, I think they will be punished ...
      Quote: Stas157
      Why fire exits were blocked.

      They are blocked everywhere, usually by a bicycle cable lock, this is a direct violation of the administration of the fuel dispenser ...
      Quote: Stas157
      Why didn’t the guards of the huge center manage to save people? (They didn’t even open fire exits. For some reason they “forgot” about the whole hall of the children sitting in it.)

      Because this is a matter of personnel (animators, administrators, controllers, etc.)
      Quote: Stas157
      why the administration of those who were there didn’t manage the situation?

      Because your skin is closer. Here they are the culprits!
      Quote: Stas157
      Regional oversight bodies also did not monitor the situation, allowed this mess to be.

      Rather, it’s the fault of the local wardens ... Although the local regionals relaxed, you are probably right ...
      Quote: Stas157
      There is a collapse of power and an inactive state system.

      No, this is slovenliness on the ground.
      1. Stas157
        Stas157 April 2 2018 09: 02
        +4
        Quote: raw174
        Yes, you look at home! Now all finishing materials are combustible and toxic.

        64 people were not burned at home. There is a full video of Putin, where he meets with an initiative group in the morgue, where he himself is outraged by what they say who gave permission for the use of combustible and toxic materials in the decoration? Argue with him if you do not agree with this!
        Quote: raw174
        She was, but did not work, like this official version. but why it is not clear to bring to extra-departmental ...

        What difference does it make that it didn’t work. Details are not important here. Particularly important systems always try to duplicate for reliability. Therefore, it is necessary to display an alarm system, even to the government apparatus after these tragedies, if only to be accurately heard now.
        Quote: raw174
        They are blocked everywhere, usually by a bicycle cable lock, this is a direct violation of the administration of the fuel dispenser ...

        So if it everywhere, then this is a political issue, this is a vicious system, which authorities should deal with at the highest federal level.
        Quote: raw174
        This is the fault of specific people, I think they will be punished ...

        Quote: raw174
        Because your skin is closer. Here they are the culprits!

        Quote: raw174
        here the fault of the local wardens ...

        Quote: raw174
        No, this is slovenliness on the ground.

        I repeat, after the tragedy in Lame Horse it was still possible to get the problem down, turn the arrows, on the omissions of the regional authorities. But now there has been a relapse! Exactly the same hard lessons were repeated by another area. For the country, in general, someone will be responsible with us? Tragedies occurred on a national scale, the declared general national mourning testifies to this. Someone is responsible for the nation, who is responsible?
        1. raw174
          raw174 April 2 2018 09: 17
          +3
          Quote: Stas157
          Who gave permission for the use of combustible and toxic materials in the decoration?

          The use of combustible materials is prohibited. Permission is given by the Ministry of Emergency Situations OND (supervisors). I said about the guards' guilt.
          Quote: Stas157
          What difference does it make that it didn’t work. Details are not important here.

          I agree with you, just a clarification and, again, the fault of the supervision of the Ministry of Emergencies.
          Quote: Stas157
          So if this is everywhere, then this is already a political issue, this is a vicious system, which authorities should deal with at the highest federal level.

          To the Fed. level there are laws in which everything is clearly spelled out, again supervision ...
          Quote: Stas157
          I repeat, after the tragedy in Lame Horse it was still possible to get the problem down, turn the arrows, on the omissions of the regional authorities. But now there has been a relapse!

          Unfortunately, this is not the last such tragedy ... There will be conclusions, everyone will report and will be forgotten in a month ... and this is not about the president. By analogy with shooting in the USA, they regularly shoot, a wave of protest, they will forget it and shoot again in a month. C'est la vie ...
          Quote: Stas157
          Someone is responsible for the nation, was it responsible?

          Your suggestions? Those responsible will answer for the fire ...
          1. Stas157
            Stas157 April 2 2018 09: 47
            +4
            Quote: raw174
            Your suggestions? Those responsible will answer for the fire ...

            The task of the federal authorities is to ensure that all regional authorities throughout the country maintain high citizens security, that the licensing system does not allow the use of toxic finishes in shopping centers, so that alarms and alerts work in all shopping centers in the country, so that security is systemic, as well as monitoring her.
            If such high-profile tragedies are repeated, moreover, in different areas, then the "security system" in the country does not work. So either proper measures were not taken at the fed level, after Lame Horse, or there was no control over the implementation of these measures. Therefore, the feds should take responsibility and resign. This situation concerns relevant ministers in the government right up to Medvedev. If this does not happen, then responsibility passes already a floor above.
            1. raw174
              raw174 April 2 2018 10: 16
              +8
              Quote: Stas157
              so that the licensing system does not allow the use of toxic finishes in shopping centers, so that alarms and alerts work in all shopping centers in the country, so that security is systemic, as is control over it.

              I understood your idea, but you forget that PEOPLE are sitting everywhere, who perform duties differently. It is impossible to hire and hire honest and responsible people. Local people are to blame for the tragedy! Specific employees of the shopping and entertainment complex, specific controllers and inspectors from the Ministry of Emergency Situations, specific officials who commissioned, because they allowed all this.
              Quote: Stas157
              Therefore, the feds should take responsibility and resign.

              This is from a series when a cop knocked down a man on a drunk weekend, and the head of the police department was fired ... There is no sense and logic, because the problem is in the personnel on the ground.
              1. Stas157
                Stas157 April 2 2018 11: 14
                +3
                Quote: raw174
                It is impossible to hire and hire honest and responsible people. Local people are to blame for the tragedy!

                And why are the bosses? The main function of management is to control how its decisions are put into practice, to verify the result. If there is no result, but as we see from the tragedy in Kemerovo it is not, then the negligent boss needs to be removed. Otherwise, the result will be the same. Tragedies will be repeated.
                Quote: raw174
                This is from a series when a cop knocked down a man on a drunk weekend, and the head of the police department was fired ... There is no sense and logic, because the problem is in the personnel on the ground.

                If once one of the subordinates knocked a person drunk, perhaps this can be attributed to the case. If this is repeated in the police department, whether you want it or not, the boss is to blame, who recruited not only alcoholics, but also criminals into his team. The tragedy in Kemerovo, unfortunately, is not the first case.
                1. raw174
                  raw174 April 2 2018 12: 30
                  +4
                  Quote: Stas157
                  And why are the bosses? The main function of management is to control how its decisions are put into practice, to verify the result.

                  Directly inspected by the OND inspector of the Ministry of Emergencies, he made an act and a report, he sent them to his superiors in the region, they are their own at the federal level. If 1 link (inspector) with rotten and sent get along, then the regional sent get on not by malicious intent, but because he owns such information, but he can not double-check it in fact. Therefore, the inspector must sit, the regional strict ...
        2. BAI
          BAI April 2 2018 09: 38
          +5
          But now there has been a relapse!

          This is not the first event after Lame Horse. In 2015, the Admiral shopping center was in Kazan (the same flammable box without windows), 19 people died, more than 70 were injured.
        3. Golovan Jack
          Golovan Jack April 2 2018 10: 48
          +9
          Quote: Stas157
          if it is everywhere, then this is a political issue

          What is a political issue ?? fool
          They clearly told you - look at your house, is that all non-combustible there?
          Technological is a question ... polytega, damn it negative
          All materials, with very few exceptions, are flammable and potentially toxic. All.
          Quote: Stas157
          authorities should be engaged at the highest federal level

          Over-infantile approach, sorry.
          For some reason everyone owes you. And first of all, Putin.
          It is real to bend your “nearest” power so that at least “next to you” everything is in order, you (and all of you, your name is legion) do not even enter your head.
          Yelling on the Internet is all you can do.
          And then you propose to talk constructively with this? What's the point? Yes no request
      2. antivirus
        antivirus April 2 2018 09: 27
        +3
        someone on top is scumbling at the local authorities - "to observe, to observe, to watch as I bequeathed"? or are they like penguins in Antarctica freestyle swimmers
        1. raw174
          raw174 April 2 2018 10: 19
          +5
          Quote: antivirus
          someone on top is scumbling at the local authorities - "to observe, to observe, to watch as I bequeathed"? or are they like penguins in Antarctica freestyle swimmers

          There are quite specific instructions and rules, the fact that they are not followed by specific people on the ground, the minister is not guilty of this. It's like blaming the Minister of Defense for escaping from a unit of a soldier who shot his colleagues on guard ...
          1. antivirus
            antivirus April 2 2018 12: 13
            0
            I agree.
            and there is a clear one - they only pay me to sit and not send to ...

            everything went together
      3. doxtop
        doxtop April 2 2018 19: 30
        +1
        Quote: raw174
        No, this is slovenliness on the ground

        I agree! And first of all ... in ourselves! Let's answer honestly: Which of us here would dare to repeat the feat of Shavarsh Karapetyan !? I AM!? I’ll tell everyone - yes! And myself ... even up to 3 meters in depth I will not dive! Therefore, no! :( And it's scary!
    3. EvilLion
      EvilLion April 2 2018 09: 25
      +8
      Any tragedy is the result of a mass of fatal errors.

      Why did the first firefighters who arrived did not rush to save the children, although people begged to do so?


      Firefighters do not know a damn thing about the object at the time of arrival, and first conduct reconnaissance. Is always. Otherwise, they themselves will die and will not save anyone.

      There is a collapse of power and an inactive state system.


      How you lifted something. The system wrote all the requirements, but the system is to blame anyway, and not those who did not follow its instructions and simply got scared.
      1. Stas157
        Stas157 April 2 2018 11: 35
        +3
        Quote: EvilLion
        How you lifted something. The system wrote all the requirements, but the system is to blame anyway, and not those who did not follow its instructions and simply got scared.

        Maybe because no one checked how these requirements are met, no one checked? Without checks and controls, any system may not be operational. And if the system as a whole throughout the country does not work, then who is to blame? Security guard??
        1. Golovan Jack
          Golovan Jack April 2 2018 11: 57
          +5
          Quote: Stas157
          ... system in the whole country in fact does not work ...

          Why do you think so?
          Stas, stop pulling the owl already. You get tired wink
          1. goblin xnumx
            goblin xnumx April 2 2018 23: 12
            +2
            I don’t say about the whole system about firefighters (I sometimes see them closely) - the system almost does not work ...- the inertia has been losing strength since the Soviet Union ... -for some reason, you forgot about the growths - that people didn’t die there- just lucky, and still ahead spring ... summer ... forests of peat bogs at home and other things, including obsolete equipment at the remaining enterprises while reducing firefighters ..- take care of yourself and your family
  6. Stalllker
    Stalllker April 2 2018 07: 39
    +4
    Quote: Golovan Jack
    means the presence of an appropriate item in the duties of a PSC employee. Show me this item, be ... beavers

    He will not show, therefore, that there is no such item and will not be. Something similar is in the general fire safety instructions for the facility. Localization of a small fire by primary fire fighting means, but this applies to all visitors to the facility. The only thing that an employee of a private security company is obliged to do is not immediately move to the emergency exit and open it so that people can leave the facility. No matter how sad it may sound, but the salvation of the drowning, the work of the drowning themselves.
    1. Golovan Jack
      Golovan Jack April 2 2018 07: 45
      +6
      Quote: Stalllker
      He will not show, therefore, that there is no such item and will not be

      Thank you, I am in the know. It's just that your, ahem, opponent and I are old and good "friends." He "grazes" me, I - him. When there is time laughing
    2. raw174
      raw174 April 2 2018 08: 08
      +5
      Quote: Stalllker
      The only thing that an employee of a private security company is obliged to do is not immediately move to the emergency exit and open it so that people can leave the facility.

      The emergency exit must not be locked! Suppose a simple constipation, such as a bolt, or that opens with a simple click of a handle. Moreover, the door does not open from the outside, only from the inside, this was done so that lone heroes could not get inside and die there ... and PSC has nothing to do with it either ...
  7. raw174
    raw174 April 2 2018 07: 40
    +13
    The author made a review, expressed an opinion, but he is an amateur ...
    The real guard, as the captain of a sinking ship, should leave his post last - when he is convinced that he has done everything possible to save the lives of others. And save first of all children and women, and not their singed skin.

    Here you need to look at the contract and job descriptions of specific individuals. It is wrong to blame indiscriminately. If it is specifically prescribed by ChOPovets to protect property and visitors from unlawful actions of third parties, then he should not save anyone. If it is written that he should organize an evacuation, then yes, he is guilty. Now it’s easy for us to shout from the couch that I would save everyone, I would do everything right, but in reality everything is usually different ...
    It was they who exhorted those who remained: calmly, children, we will sit with closed doors and wait for firefighters. So instructions.

    Author, show me the instruction that tells you to sit in a burning building and wait for the Ministry of Emergencies! Why make nonsense! Employees of places of mass stay (animators, controllers, administrators, etc.) are required to organize an evacuation! They, those who closed and escaped, violated all instructions and thereby killed people! This is their direct responsibility.
    But the firefighters did not come. Firefighters were late.

    Not true! We arrived and were not late, just the specifics of the fire of a modern building are such that 15 minutes after it started, there is no one to save ... Caustic black smoke instantly poisons, makes it invisible, and the speed of fire propagation, according to modern materials, is almost equal to the speed of light ( I’m exaggerating of course), add the high burning temperature of synthetics here ... You can save only those who are in areas not absorbed by fire and smoke.
    It seems that the modern instructions themselves are idiotic, and written by idiots

    It seems that the author did not read what he was writing about ... The instructions were not written by idiots, but by blood and they are quite sensible, they just did not follow ...
    My conclusion: The article is emotional, but its main part is not true ...
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion April 2 2018 09: 43
      +2
      What kind of combustible materials are these? Who allowed them to be used, and even in crowded places? No need to write stupidity, there are standards. If they were violated, then those who used such materials and those who sold them should sit down.
      1. raw174
        raw174 April 2 2018 10: 23
        +5
        Quote: EvilLion
        What kind of combustible materials are these?

        Plastics and other PVC ...
        Quote: EvilLion
        No need to write stupidity, there are standards.

        And what is the stupidity? I am aware that there are standards ...
        Quote: EvilLion
        Who allowed them to be used, and even in crowded places?

        This is a question for the investigation, it will find all those responsible, I have no doubt about it ...
        Quote: EvilLion
        If they were violated, then those who used such materials and those who sold them should sit down.

        I agree.
        I’m just stating a fact, you can’t shout that firefighters stayed in the chill while people were dying, you need to really look at things.
        1. EvilLion
          EvilLion April 2 2018 12: 32
          0
          Plastics are different. Specifically, what materials and why are they used if it is known that they burn out like rocket fuel in a fire in terms of burning speed and toxicity?
          1. raw174
            raw174 April 2 2018 12: 42
            +1
            Quote: EvilLion
            Plastics are different. Specifically, what materials and why are they used if it is known that they burn out like rocket fuel in a fire in terms of burning speed and toxicity?

            I already wrote here 5 times that there are regulations, standards and they most likely violated. The investigation will establish ... Officials and the Ministry of Emergencies will answer, giving the go-ahead for commissioning with violations, if any ...
            I'm just not sure about the filling of children's rooms, they most likely are not regulated by building codes, and the rest may not have fire safety ...
            1. Okolotochny
              Okolotochny April 3 2018 04: 49
              +3
              They can be combustible. But, they must be treated with a composition that, if it does not allow them to burn, will significantly increase the burning time. It is on the fingers. By the way, the issue of control over the processing of structures also lies with the OND EMERCOM.
              For closed doors, I would also advise the author to get up from the couch and pull up the equipment. Like a weekend, so Pearl gives out. Object Anti-Terrorism Protection Passport - is there such? 100% should be a place with a one-time mass presence of people. Here is the issue of closed doors should be considered in this aspect. God forbid, what if there was terracotta? And would it turn out that the terrorists entered the mall through open doors? Would the author again be guilty of a chop that the doors are open?
  8. Stalllker
    Stalllker April 2 2018 07: 48
    +5
    Quote: raw174
    The author made a review, expressed his opinion, but he is an amateur ... My conclusion: The article is emotional, but its main part is not true ...

    I completely agree with you. But only we have already heard enough erroneous opinions about this terrible TRAGEDY. It's time for people of this sort as the author of the article to keep silent about this.
    1. Stas157
      Stas157 April 2 2018 09: 09
      +4
      Quote: Stalllker
      But only we have already heard enough erroneous opinions about this terrible TRAGEDY. It's time for people of this sort as the author of the article to keep silent about this.

      Our authorities also think so. It is better to be silent and once again not to understand the problems. Indeed, it is always more pleasant to report good news! That zomboyaschiku already silent. We must forget everything faster and get ready for the inauguration!
      1. Dangerous
        Dangerous April 2 2018 10: 16
        +3
        Do you think it would be better if they talk about this tragedy for half a year every day? And by the way, arrests are underway, and officials and even Rosgvardeytsev.
      2. raw174
        raw174 April 2 2018 10: 25
        +3
        Quote: Stas157
        It is better to be silent and once again not to understand the problems.

        Well, like everything that can be sucked up with this tragedy, all the media ...
        Quote: Stas157
        That zomboyaschiku already silent.

        Where? It doesn’t go off the screens, as in other things from the newspapers!
        1. Stas157
          Stas157 April 2 2018 11: 22
          +3
          Quote: raw174
          Well, like everything that can be sucked up with this tragedy, all the media ...

          And most importantly, no! What lessons have been learned? How could she ever repeat after Lame Horse? Who exactly is to blame? Who and what is responsible? What measures have been worked out so that at least such cases never happen again ... Some questions! And there are no answers.
          1. Golovan Jack
            Golovan Jack April 2 2018 11: 37
            +8
            Quote: Stas157
            Some questions! And there are no answers

            Especially for you, such, ahem ... sweet and simple, in capital letters:
            CONSEQUENCES.
          2. raw174
            raw174 April 2 2018 12: 35
            +2
            Quote: Stas157
            Who exactly is to blame? Who and what is responsible?

            Do you propose to judge without investigation? Only a week has passed with a ponytail! Investigators are still working on the spot, there are affairs for a year or two ...
  9. Viktorbalovnev
    Viktorbalovnev April 2 2018 09: 05
    0
    And what if the contract is not spelled out and then there is no need to save?
    1. raw174
      raw174 April 2 2018 10: 26
      +7
      Quote: Viktorbalovnev
      And what if the contract is not spelled out and then there is no need to save?

      Strictly speaking, yes. if not required, may not do so. A matter of morality and conscience, which each has its own ...
  10. EvilLion
    EvilLion April 2 2018 09: 09
    +6
    The problem is that aunts and uncles cannot be to blame in principle. Social psychology is built in such a way that only government officials, some abstract System, well, or some Vladimir Vladimirovich, or Joseph Vissarionovich can betray, steal and stupid, and the people are infallible, the people are solid Alexandra Matrosova, Zoe Kosmodemyanskiy, Nikolai Gastello, Yuri Gagarina . Although, as practice shows, an ordinary person is not something to do if you need to attack, or fly into orbit full of fuel and a not-too-reliable barrel, he even behaves stupidly and cowardly in safe computer games.
    1. doxtop
      doxtop April 2 2018 19: 35
      +1
      Give me five bros! :( We all, almost every one of us, have long been blown away! We ourselves are rotting inside! But we love to blame the authorities for this.
      I don’t remember who is from the “history”, but someone said that (approximately the following): “The people have the government - which they deserve”
  11. Dormidont
    Dormidont April 2 2018 09: 24
    0
    Information for consideration https://news-front.info/2018/03/30/k-voprosu-o-fa
    brike-fejkov-pyatoj-kolonny-aleksandr-rodzhers /
    1. raw174
      raw174 April 2 2018 10: 33
      +1
      Quote: Dormidont
      Information for reflection

      link to the main page of some news portal, what is the point? what to watch?
  12. BAI
    BAI April 2 2018 09: 34
    +2
    It seems that the modern instructions themselves - id.io.ts-k.ie, and id-io-tam.i are written.

    All (well, if not all - then most) instructions are written primarily in order to cover the writers' ass, to relieve them of responsibility. Many instructions are simply unrealistic to carry out - an Italian strike will succeed.
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion April 2 2018 09: 40
      +1
      And follow the instructions of the supervisory authorities is not fate?
    2. raw174
      raw174 April 2 2018 10: 31
      +3
      Quote: BAI
      All (well, if not all - then most) instructions are written primarily in order to cover the writers' ass, to relieve them of responsibility.

      ALL safety instructions and emergency procedures are written in BLOOD! All of them are true and correct. Can you give an example of an absurd instruction? I don’t think so ...
      Do not palm off the microwave instruction manual wink
      1. Winnie76
        Winnie76 April 2 2018 13: 04
        +1
        Quote: raw174
        ALL safety instructions and emergency procedures are written in BLOOD! All of them are true and correct. Can you give an example of an absurd instruction? I don’t think so ...

        Yes of course. Easy. As I understand it, the children in the cinema were waiting for firefighters according to the instructions. And the people who took people out didn’t act according to instructions. How so, they were without PPE. Gross violation.
        But what about Karapetyan and the trolleybus? He violated the "blood-written" safety precautions. After all, he could drown, cut himself badly.
        What about traffic rules? That there are no contradictions at all? What about the contradictions, the obstruction on the right is the exit from the adjacent territory. How about a U-turn at the intersection with the dividing strip, along the shortest path or not. There is still no clear explanation. Each IDPS interprets as it is convenient.
        Is it convenient to have a dozen or two conflicting instructions? Even if he acted on one, you can make the switchman on the other.
        1. raw174
          raw174 April 2 2018 13: 49
          +2
          Quote: Winnie76
          As I understand it, the children in the cinema were waiting for firefighters according to the instructions.

          You understood this after reading this statement, BUT when a fire alarm, or a signal about the possibility of a terrorist act, or another evacuation signal is received, ALL people who are at the facility must go to the emergency exit for evacuation without panic, and it’s forbidden to go to the wardrobe for outerwear (if any). The staff is obliged to follow the evacuees, show the escape routes. EVERYTHING is done from the moment the alarm is received. I know this because work is often associated with evacuations, but in a slightly different direction, namely, anti-terrorism ...
          Quote: Winnie76
          But what about Karapetyan and the trolleybus? He violated the blood-written safety precautions

          Drivers violated ...
          Quote: Winnie76
          What about the contradictions, the obstruction on the right is the exit from the adjacent territory.

          What is not clear? inferior to those traveling from the adjacent territory, regardless of whether it is on the right or on the left ... If both leave, then the interference on the right works ... There are practically no blank spots in the traffic rules, but there are incompetent inspectors. I sued them twice, both won, once put an inspector in the belt at a parsing in the traffic police ...
        2. saigon
          saigon April 2 2018 16: 08
          0
          Well, and what means of protection in case of fire? Here is what? You are aware that a standard gas mask, a gas mask and not that a bandage no matter what carbon monoxide does not hold. And that firefighters gas masks isolated from the atmosphere with regeneration and actively breathe in it under load for a long time is not possible. This is where you saw the IPs. In fire shields there are only hooks and axes with fire extinguishers and no insulating gas masks (I’m not able to die in it for long).
          1. raw174
            raw174 April 3 2018 06: 33
            +1
            Quote: saigon
            And that firefighters gas masks isolated from the atmosphere with regeneration and actively breathe in it under load for a long time is not possible.

            Our Ministry of Emergency Situations has a shoulder balloon with compressed air. They charge it with a compressor in part. There is just air. It’s enough for about 20 minutes, but I'm not sure about that ...
            1. saigon
              saigon April 3 2018 16: 48
              +1
              Probably so, before there were IPs with a regeneration cartridge it was possible to sit for 20 minutes, but there was no active work.
            2. Ace Tambourine
              Ace Tambourine April 7 2018 01: 41
              +1
              Respirator Ural -14M. 14kg weight. 2 liter oxygen cylinder, closed breathing system with breathing bag, refrigerator for cooling the breathing mixture. The reserve time is 4 hours with passive behavior. With active work less.
              Itself wore not one year in the Supreme Court.
              It is serviced only personally as a parachute. It is your own safety.
          2. KVIRTU
            KVIRTU April 7 2018 11: 40
            +1
            Very simple. Hopcalite gas mask cartridge. I have at work in, say, ruined rooms. There are various types of fire extinguishers, and alarm systems with battery backup, aerosol fire extinguishing, and gas cylinder, powerful exhaust ventilation for smoke removal during the evacuation, evacuation lighting.
            But this is air traffic control. Which inspector will force the owner of the shopping center to do all this and continue to service, I do not know.
            Was in a fire at an underground checkpoint. Thanks to those cartridges, no one was hurt, not breathed. All were taken out, the documentation was taken out, and so on, on trifles. Then I had to turn off the power, then the firemen arrived, there the sleeve and the foam blew.
            Who serves, demand them from the RHBZ service, you can also buy, up to 1000 rubles.
        3. alstr
          alstr April 2 2018 16: 19
          +1
          It was just Karapetyan who complied with the instruction - "in case of a threat to people's lives, immediately organize their rescue, using the available forces and means."
      2. alstr
        alstr April 2 2018 15: 59
        +4
        I will add. Calling knocking out windows and doors can lead to at least an even greater fire speed and temperature. Moreover, an explosion may occur (it is even beautifully called.)
        So, they closed when there was no possibility of evacuation - that’s right.
        But the fact that there was no second exit from the hall is a gross violation.

        The only thing that could be done in their situation was to call the fire department and tell their location. Was it done or not - it is necessary to check. If there was, then immediately a big question for firefighters appears.

        But in general, we have a system error that we are not prepared for such situations. Unfortunately. Therefore, anyone can get confused, because just don't know how to act.
        I believe that it is necessary to conduct not only lecture classes at school, but also reinforce them with practice (and not only ostentatious, but also quite real - something like a chemical tent).

        As for the instructions in general, here we must remember what else Peter the first said:
        "Do not adhere to the charter, like a blind wall; the rules are written in it, but there are no times and cases."
        And then there is: "The crutch is tired - it helps the crippled, but it interferes with the healthy." This is like Suvorov said.
        1. raw174
          raw174 April 3 2018 06: 56
          +2
          Quote: alstr
          Calling knocking out windows and doors can lead to at least an even greater fire speed and temperature.

          It's not all clear ... If a fire is in the room where the person is, then the windows do not open, if there is no fire in the room, but there is smoke, then they close the door and open the windows. In addition, windows are an escape route (depending on the floor).
          Quote: alstr
          Moreover, an explosion may occur.

          To do this, you need explosive explosives, or an accumulation of combustible gases ...
          Quote: alstr
          So, they closed when there was no possibility of evacuation - that’s right.

          Specifically in Kemerovo, people were closed in the cinema. If the door was open, they would have managed to evacuate ...
          Quote: alstr
          But the fact that there was no second exit from the hall is a gross violation.

          Yes, there should be an evacuation exit from the cinema (in the cinema where I go, two “exit” signs shine through the bottom of the screen, they are behind the screen, on both sides). If not, the question is for acceptance.
          Quote: alstr
          If there was, then immediately a big question for firefighters appears.

          By the time of the arrival of the first calculations, the corridors were already impassable, the smoke in the aisle at the cinema fills everything from the first seconds, judging by the video ... In such an environment (burning + dense smoke) no one will enter the building, because firefighters do not have an accurate representation about the object (exact map, information about the possibility of collapse, etc.).
          Quote: alstr
          I believe that it is necessary to conduct not only lecture classes at school, but also reinforce them with practice (and not only ostentatious, but also quite real - something like a chemical tent).

          According to the rules, training (evacuation) at school and kindergarten takes place once a quarter. They are conducted by the forces of the school, by order of the director. EMERCOM employees are also often present, but they will not be enough for everyone ... We trained at work, last year, we brought a smoke generator, it was spectacular ...
          1. alstr
            alstr April 3 2018 09: 43
            +1
            In order for there to be an explosion in case of fire, you do not need anything exploding.
            If a fire occurs indoors without oxygen access, then if such access is created, then an explosion occurs.
            If I remember correctly, then there was an American film about such a situation and this phenomenon has a special name.

            The fact of the matter is that they did not have time to evacuate due to rapid smoke. And there was no second exit
            .
            From the record it can be seen that the smoke occurred in less than 1 minute. During this time, it is not realistic to organize the evacuation of so many people. They just do not have time to get out of their seats. Especially if they are small children.

            About firefighters. They are obliged to enter, but another question is that why no one met them and did not explain anything - this is a big question for the staff of the complex and for the same security.
            As for the cards, there are no such cards, and even if they were, their relevance is doubtful. There are only evacuation plans and floor plans at the time of commissioning.

            I would think about why firefighters do not have plans for such facilities, and also do not know the main places of crowding (a cinema, game zones, food zones, large shops). In principle, there should be approximate extinguishing plans.
            Moreover, now there are tablets on which you can upload plans for all the buildings on the site (in any case iconic) and approximate extinguishing plans (procedures). And if you take into account the availability of mobile communications, then from the server you can always get any data. And it costs a penny - a maximum of 30 thousand per car.

            As for training, it is not everywhere they are held. And the usefulness of training without firefighters - it is doubtful (just for the case of a fire).
            Basically. training close to reality is needed approximately once a year. But as they say, “we have no plans”.
            1. raw174
              raw174 April 3 2018 10: 26
              +2
              Quote: alstr
              If a fire occurs indoors without oxygen access, then if such access is created, then an explosion occurs.

              Maybe this is true for some small rooms that are hermetically sealed, but in a huge fuel dispenser there is enough air for burning plastic and foam without windows ...
              Quote: alstr
              The fact of the matter is that they did not have time to evacuate due to rapid smoke. And there was no second exit

              They would have succeeded if they had not been locked ... In that room where the doors were opened, they ran out. 100% staff fault ...
              Quote: alstr
              About firefighters. They are obliged to enter, but another question is that why no one met them and did not explain anything - this is a big question for the staff of the complex and for the same security.

              In principle, the fire brigade acts as a combat unit. They don’t climb into an object controlled by the enemy ... Even if there was a building plan, it’s on fire, it’s possible to lose a group when it collapses, smoke will not pass, and the fighting will not withstand the temperature ... There are no fools either, and I I'm sure they did everything possible to save people.
              1. alstr
                alstr April 3 2018 11: 43
                +1
                About the explosion - this is true for any building. In the film, everything happened in a large building.
                Because when burning all kinds of plastic, a lot of things are released, then oxygen quickly disappears and everything goes into smoldering mode if there is no additional oxygen supply).

                As for the firefighters, they still have questions. According to recent reports, the first crew arrived after 15 minutes, and began to remove from the roof after 1,5 hours. Question What did the firemen do for 75 minutes?

                It’s clear that if there are people on the roof, it means they were cut off and there is a high probability that there were still people left.

                Unfortunately, for some reason, we forget the mistakes and lessons of previous tragedies. Hotel Russia burnt down in 77, In 91 g the hotel Leningrad, Now here is Kemerovo. And everywhere they were not ready for such fires.
                1. raw174
                  raw174 April 3 2018 12: 18
                  +2
                  Quote: alstr
                  According to recent reports, the first crew arrived after 15 minutes, and began to remove from the roof after 1,5 hours. Question What did the firemen do for 75 minutes?

                  first question: where were the fire escape at the building itself ... And firefighters might just not have such a ladder that would reach the roof. The former certainly could not have been, there most likely simple ACs arrived ... There are an extremely limited number of serious special equipment at the Ministry of Emergencies ...
                  1. alstr
                    alstr April 3 2018 13: 46
                    +1
                    I say that for all the jambs of the shopping center building, our firefighters do not have a clear plan of action for such cases.
                    Well, they sent one calculation, while the probability that additional forces would be needed is very high, because there are a lot of people in the building.

                    Remembering the same fire at the Leningrad Hotel - duty outfits arrived at the same time from two parts and immediately rushed into the building to save people.
                    At the same time, calculations were still sent for them.
                    Similarly, there were problems with stairs and equipment. And more than a quarter century has passed.

                    Moreover, skyscrapers have been set up in large cities in our cities - and there are no rescue systems for people from the upper floors or their very minimum.
                    In St. Petersburg at the end of March (after Kemerovo), a skyscraper was burning - even if there were stairs from the 22nd floor, people were taking pictures for about an hour - they could not lift the stairs.
                    But in our country, and on 30 floors of the building, they also build blocks and blocks. What will happen if there is a big fire on some kind of 30th floor?
                    Yes, there it will be difficult for all tenants to go down from the 30th floor even without a fire, and it is better not to think with a fire.

                    Moreover, this question can be safely asked to local authorities, as they signed all permits.
              2. Trotil42
                Trotil42 April 6 2018 14: 28
                0
                Are you sure? Look at the video ... the boy is jumping from the center window ... no one from the Ministry of Emergencies is trying to save him ... although they have already arrived ....... ordinary citizens are at least trying to do something ...
  13. MaximSylvestr
    MaximSylvestr April 2 2018 09: 56
    +3
    Hence, a few conclusions. The first. It seems that the modern instructions themselves are idiotic, and written by idiots. And at least morally outdated. It was not necessary to close the doors, but the windows.
    ---------------------
    As for the windows, the author is mistaken. According to SP 7.13130.2013 clause 8.5 For the natural ventilation of corridors in case of fire, openable window or other openings in the outer fences should be provided. The windows in case of fire just need to be opened.
    Have smoke control systems been installed or not? If so, why didn't it work?
    The investigation should have questions to the owner, to the design organizations developing various sections of the project, to the expertise and firefighters who gave positive opinions on the project, to the builders and again to the fire inspectors who turned a blind eye to violations during the operation of the shopping center. In the halls of cinemas there should be emergency exits (if they were why they were closed and smoke exhaust.) Dozens of people, including the owner, should go to court.
  14. Stalllker
    Stalllker April 2 2018 10: 12
    +4
    Quote: Soho
    Stalllker (Alexey) Today, 06:34
    So apologize for your words !!!

    why apologize, balabol? For the fact that this private security company did not have the right to provide security services without a license to protect objects of mass stay of citizens? For not having the right to advise the customer on security issues? Because this private security company, like a number of others, existed solely because it belonged to the relatives of the former deputy chief of the Main Department of Internal Affairs of the Kemerovo Region? And the article’s talk is not about “should-should not”, but about the fact that while others rushed into the fire for the sake of saving children, these “guards” peacefully grazed on the street, the first to fall off the fire. So what kind of apology do you need? That these "men" survived, and teacher Tatyana Darsaliya died, going to the fire to save children? They could see the same psychology as yours - fuck, let it burn, I haven’t spelled out in the job description ...

    Apologize for the word RATS. To call man beauty is the humiliation of human dignity, this is first. Secondly, if PSC did not have a license, then this is not a Private Security Company, and it was not the guards who performed the service, the question arises, then what kind of responsibilities are you talking about ????? Then they were ordinary people who saved their lives, like the other 700 people. And thirdly, among the 700 people who fled, there were only women and children ???? There were no men there at all ??? According to your logic, the peasants who saved themselves among them, they also need to put a "brand".
    1. MaximSylvestr
      MaximSylvestr April 2 2018 11: 32
      +3
      Soho I agree, if you are offended sue.) And do not equate people in uniform with ordinary visitors. People in uniform did not even bother to raise the alarm. Following your thoughts, if you will sink, while I will definitely know that it is you, then I will pass by. So, as I am not responsible for your life.
    2. Soho
      Soho April 2 2018 11: 33
      +3
      Stalllker (Alexey) Today, 10:12
      Apologize for the word RATS. To call man beauty is the humiliation of human dignity, this is first. Secondly, if PSC did not have a license, then this is not a Private Security Company, and it was not the guards who performed the service, the question arises, then what kind of responsibilities are you talking about ????? Then they were ordinary people who saved their lives, like the other 700 people. And thirdly, among the 700 people who fled, there were only women and children ???? There were no men there at all ??? According to your logic, the peasants who saved themselves among them, they also need to put a "brand".

      in general, the expression "rats running first from the ship" has a clear basis for application. And it is used just in time for a similar situation. What have you spread demagogy?
      It’s YOU who is talking about responsibilities, not me. And do not pull the owl on the globe with the "ordinary citizens"! Ordinary citizens came to rest there and brought the children. And these "crossword puzzles" received money for their work.
      1. Setrac
        Setrac April 2 2018 12: 17
        +2
        Quote: Soho
        And these "crossword puzzles" received money for their work

        But they did not receive money for extinguishing fires and saving people? What is the meaning of the claims? You can be blamed for the lack of conscience, but knowing the size of shopping centers it is unlikely that these same guards had the opportunity to save anyone in theaters.
        Here claims must be presented to the cinema staff.
        1. Soho
          Soho April 2 2018 12: 57
          +1
          you somehow do not answer in a context. From this, the meaning of your answer is lost.
          1. Golovan Jack
            Golovan Jack April 2 2018 13: 11
            +4
            Quote: Soho
            From this, the meaning of your answer is lost.

            Tell me honestly that you simply did not understand the answer.
            All of you answered correctly, and quite a "horse-text".
            Quote: Soho
            these "crossword puzzles" received money for their work

            Quote: Setrac
            But they did not receive money for extinguishing fires and saving people? What is the meaning of the claims? Here claims must be presented to the cinema staff.

            What is there # noncontext?
            1. Soho
              Soho April 4 2018 04: 33
              +2
              Golovan Jack (Roman) April 2, 2018 13:11 ↑
              Quote: Soho
              From this, the meaning of your answer is lost.
              Tell me honestly that you simply did not understand the answer.
              All of you answered correctly, and quite a "horse-text".

              Do you have problems reading or comprehending what you read? Then I write more slowly, spelling: an article about rats and heroes. The rats escaped, and the heroes ... some of them died, some happily survived. What does it owe or do not owe? Any extreme situation (war, catastrophe, etc.) divides people clearly, without halftones. I was under those and those circumstances and I know what I'm talking about.
              But was the sandwich devourer obliged to save people according to his MD? ... I didn’t read the MD of the Chopovites of the “Defense Center,” but the point
              in the event of a fire, immediately call the fire department by telephone 01 and proceed with the evacuation of people and property from the premises, while observing safety precautions when working in a fire.

              there are many instructions.
              Only when the question of responsibility arises, all these little people, starting from security guards and ending with the head of the Ministry of Emergency Situations of the Kemerovo Region, lead in exactly the same way as you do - they start to switch arrows and mumble about "duties".
  15. Stalllker
    Stalllker April 2 2018 10: 14
    +1
    Quote: EvilLion
    And follow the instructions of the supervisory authorities is not fate?

    It is necessary to spend money
  16. Stalllker
    Stalllker April 2 2018 10: 16
    +1
    Quote: Stas157
    Quote: Stalllker
    But only we have already heard enough erroneous opinions about this terrible TRAGEDY. It's time for people of this sort as the author of the article to keep silent about this.

    Our authorities also think so. It is better to be silent and once again not to understand the problems. Indeed, it is always more pleasant to report good news! That zomboyaschiku already silent. We must forget everything faster and get ready for the inauguration!

    The authorities just gave the opportunity to go to the cemetery, where they did not find anything. Like other activists
  17. shuravi
    shuravi April 2 2018 10: 25
    +6
    The killer is capital. It is he who, in the pursuit of profit, saves on everything, including safety.
    You can talk for a long time about the brave, professionals, rats. But it was capital that he hired for the responsible posts of rats. So cheaper. It was the capital that gave them such unspoken instructions, everything that could be locked up, otherwise they would have carried away something, no matter how they watched a movie without tickets.
    And there will be no changes while maintaining this economic course. The wave will subside and wait for a new emergency.
    For shopping centers, it’s profitable. Filling them to the eyeballs with tenants is also beneficial. To organize the movement in such a way that even a person who wants to get out of this maze will go through a thuja pile of shops.
    But to hire sensible and in the right amount of security, equip emergency exits, ventilation, etc. with magnetic locks, these are expenses.
    1. Golovan Jack
      Golovan Jack April 2 2018 10: 54
      +4
      Quote: shuravi
      shuravi

      And the conclusions?
      Or just - a specialist in shredding the truth in slices?
      1. shuravi
        shuravi April 2 2018 13: 38
        +1
        Quote: Golovan Jack
        Quote: shuravi
        shuravi

        And the conclusions?



        And this is the conclusion. Or do you have problems with the perception of the text?

        Or just - a specialist in shredding the truth in slices?


        Essentially have something to argue? Or would you like to hang tags?
        1. Golovan Jack
          Golovan Jack April 2 2018 14: 08
          +6
          Quote: shuravi
          Essentially there is something to object to?

          Easily.
          Quote: shuravi
          The killer is capital. It is he who, in the pursuit of profit, saves on everything, including safety

          "Capital," he is world wide. And for some reason, shopping and entertainment centers are not burning there.
          There is some other capital, probably. Which does not save on safety wink
          Quote: shuravi
          hire sensible and in the right amount of security, equip emergency exits, ventilation, etc. with magnetic locks, these are expenses

          When expenses at a possible emergency cover these costs, they no longer think about these costs. Humble with them, as with the inevitable, ahem, evil.
          So, in general, in the whole civilized world it is done. We have not yet.
          That is the reason. And not in "systems" and "economic courses."
          Pravdoruba yes
  18. Stalllker
    Stalllker April 2 2018 10: 28
    +2
    Quote: raw174
    Quote: Stalllker
    The only thing that an employee of a private security company is obliged to do is not immediately move to the emergency exit and open it so that people can leave the facility.

    The emergency exit must not be locked!

    You can put an electromagnetic lock, as they stand at our facility. Nearby is an emergency unlock button and there is also a door control panel at the guard post. And the security guard of this post says in his job description that he would unlock the exits in case of emergency, and the guards inside the objects arrive at these emergency exits, make sure that they open, open the door and thereby ensure the evacuation of people, and not run around object and collect everyone!
  19. Stalllker
    Stalllker April 2 2018 10: 33
    +1
    Quote: BAI
    It seems that the modern instructions themselves - id.io.ts-k.ie, and id-io-tam.i are written.

    All (well, if not all - then most) instructions are written primarily in order to cover the writers' ass, to relieve them of responsibility. Many instructions are simply unrealistic to carry out - an Italian strike will succeed.

    Yes, there’s nothing real there, we just have everything through one place “maybe it will carry”
  20. Stirbjorn
    Stirbjorn April 2 2018 10: 40
    +5
    The death sentence was issued to schoolchildren, without realizing it, those who closed the door to the third cinema. How many of them were in that room and who they were - the investigation will figure it out.
    How did they know that the fire extinguishing system does not work in the shopping center, and that the firefighters will get more than an hour ?! "" from the fitness club led people to the roof, although if the firefighters arrived an hour later, it’s not a fact that there would be someone to shoot! It’s good to write from the sofa how everything should be done. How many would have been poisoned by carbon monoxide, until they reached the exit, if they had flown down from the cinema. How much does a child’s body need to breathe in order to lose consciousness ?!

    PS It's funny that the word corresponding to the name of the famous novel by Dostoevsky is blocked in the comments, and indicated in the article. It turns out the author of the article violates the rules of the site fellow
  21. shuravi
    shuravi April 2 2018 11: 12
    +4
    Quote: Stirbjorn
    How did they know that the fire extinguishing system does not work in the shopping center, and that the firefighters will get more than an hour ?!


    One must not know this, one must anticipate this, the worst-case development of an emergency is always required to be present in the scenario of the action algorithm.
  22. Old26
    Old26 April 2 2018 11: 23
    +5
    Quote: Prometey
    Even volunteer fire brigades DO NOT EXTEND the fire before the arrival of fire brigades, if they were created by order of the enterprise.

    He himself was the head of such a DPB. The instructions say "take measures to prevent the further spread of fire" and ensure the evacuation of employees. But the worst thing is that training (certification) sometimes happens so formally that the hair stands on end. This is done every three years. I attended two such trainings.

    The essence of the training is to show films about the action of professional fire brigades and the main thing that we were hammered into is

    1. Numbers of laws and government regulations on fire fighting
    2. Almost half of the training was the effect of the DPB as a result of external attacks by nuclear, chemical and bacteriological weapons. They gave the marking of dosimeters and devices. Again, "given". but they didn’t work with them. A timid attempt to ask if there would be a trip to the training ground, where you can roll out the sleeves, to extinguish a small source with a fire extinguisher - the result was, it is "expensive" and is not provided. And the point is in my certification? True, the boss changed for the second time and really tried to do something with their own hands. But in most cases, training is formally
    1. alstr
      alstr April 2 2018 16: 15
      +1
      Here it is - formality is ruining us.
      Here, I immediately remember the reality show about wooden houses. There were several times that a dangerous situation arose - they immediately gave practical training.

      And fire training was also shown. There they really worked out the actions: climbed the stairs, used a fire extinguisher, put out the car. Firefighters were engaged with them - showed how correctly.

      We also need, and not "we have no plan."
  23. kunstkammer
    kunstkammer April 2 2018 13: 23
    +1
    Quote: raw174
    It’s just interesting what the police feed there, especially the local police? ..

    Golden words - feed yourself! They come to the nearest restaurant-cafe and feed naturally. Is free. It is the police and district ... sometimes firefighters, SES and other controllers come. But the police and district police officers are always. If they haven’t come to you today, they feed today in another place.
  24. Stalllker
    Stalllker April 2 2018 13: 26
    +1
    Quote: Soho
    Stalllker (Alexey) Today, 10:12
    Apologize for the word RATS. To call man beauty is the humiliation of human dignity, this is first. Secondly, if PSC did not have a license, then this is not a Private Security Company, and it was not the guards who performed the service, the question arises, then what kind of responsibilities are you talking about ????? Then they were ordinary people who saved their lives, like the other 700 people. And thirdly, among the 700 people who fled, there were only women and children ???? There were no men there at all ??? According to your logic, the peasants who saved themselves among them, they also need to put a "brand".

    in general, the expression "rats running first from the ship" has a clear basis for application. And it is used just in time for a similar situation. What have you spread demagogy?
    It’s YOU who is talking about responsibilities, not me. And do not pull the owl on the globe with the "ordinary citizens"! Ordinary citizens came to rest there and brought the children. And these "crossword puzzles" received money for their work.

    It is you who do not know the legal aspect of the issue draw conclusions "by concepts." And the official duties during the trial in court will be primarily in order to establish the guilt of each of the detainees, who did what or did not to save people. I have been working in the security sector for 9 years, and I understand the issue of the activities of PSCs better than yours.
  25. thinker
    thinker April 2 2018 15: 03
    +2
    It is impossible to change this tragic course of history.

    Here I categorically object. Can! View statistics on fire sites.
    World statistics on those killed in fires per 100 thousand people. of the population
    Russia - 7 USA - 0,75 Germany - 0,35 at the same time, the number of fires in the USA is approximately 4 times larger!
    https://fireman.club/statyi-polzovateley/gibel-na
    -pozharax /
  26. Kovaleva
    Kovaleva April 2 2018 15: 18
    +2
    During the fire in the "Winter Cherry" the supply ventilation did not turn off. There was no sense not only in closing the doors, but also in the windows. Due to this, the speed of fire spread has increased many times. Many thanks to people who helped others escape!
  27. shuravi
    shuravi April 2 2018 16: 05
    +2
    Quote: Golovan Jack

    Easily.

    "Capital," he is world wide. And for some reason, shopping and entertainment centers are not burning there.
    There is some other capital, probably. Which does not save on safety wink



    Nope. It didn’t work out for you.
    Firstly, there really is a slightly different capital, which for many decades has been forced to compete with socialism.
    Secondly, there is also enough emergency. For reasons of economy.


    When expenses at a possible emergency cover these costs, they no longer think about these costs. Humble with them, as with the inevitable, ahem, evil.
    So, in general, in the whole civilized world it is done. We have not yet.
    That is the reason. And not in "systems" and "economic courses."
    Pravdoruba yes


    So you would immediately say that you still believe in fairy tales. So that I do not waste my time on you. hi
    1. Golovan Jack
      Golovan Jack April 2 2018 20: 15
      +5
      Quote: shuravi
      So you would immediately say that you still believe in fairy tales

      Very funny so far ...
      Quote: shuravi
      So I don’t waste my time on you

      Think about yourself a lot. It will not end in good, definitely No.
      On the Internet - yes, it’s okay, no one will take the language here. Have fun yes
      1. shuravi
        shuravi April 3 2018 11: 11
        +1
        Quote: Golovan Jack

        Very funny so far ...



        That's what I’m talking about, belief in fairy tales called: "civilized west."




        Think about yourself a lot. It will not end in good, definitely No.


        You do not attribute your vices to me.

        On the Internet - yes, it’s okay, no one will take the language here. Have fun yes


        Type threaten? Well, unlike you, I’m not hiding behind an anonymous nickname.
  28. ivan0vitch
    ivan0vitch April 2 2018 16: 05
    +2
    yeah, it’s a pity that all unspoiled skins - knowledgeable politicians write to VO, otherwise they would save everyone)
  29. sib.ataman
    sib.ataman April 2 2018 16: 14
    +1
    Whoever said that, but “Winter Cherry” is a sign of a systemic crisis of the executive branch! According to the principle: we ourselves with a mustache, Moscow is close, but we can see better. That's right, but a bad example is contagious! Kagda Shuvalovskaya Zhinka on a private samalik over a hill at a dog show! And he himself writes the GDP about the inappropriateness of deoffshorization ... Then any pimple in the back will be combed out - if not to surpass, then at least try! While in the Russian Federation it will be: "Sat ** and the ball rules there!". Nothing will change! There is no nationwide linking base! But no, and there is no trial on the guilty!
  30. Orang
    Orang April 2 2018 16: 54
    +2
    Regarding the "idiots" locked in the hall: the author is strong in hindsight. They would have stayed, they said that the heroes made a balanced decision, and the instructions about it. They would drag the children and kill them with smoke in the corridors, would yell about irresponsible reptiles: is it really not clear that it was necessary to lock oneself.
    A video of the fire is very necessary. You can clearly see how from the moment “this is what, fire, it's cool” to “kapets, where to run, we all die” literally tens of seconds pass. Let people draw conclusions in a visual way; words are hard to convince.
  31. doxtop
    doxtop April 2 2018 19: 06
    +5
    With general agreement with the "pain" of the author of the article, I fundamentally disagree with the conclusions voiced in the "Monitors"!
    1) We do not yet know at what point those in the 3rd hall became aware that the building is on fire. Judging by the frames of video surveillance ... then the zone of the location of the cinema halls, from the moment people received information about the "fire" to the occurrence of complete smoke (and not the fact that it was not poisonous), 1 maximum 1,5 minutes passed. Just figure out what is happening and formulate an action plan can take much more time, and the 3rd cinema (which was the bulk of the victims) was closest to the spread of smoke and fire.
    2) It is still not clear whether evacuation from the cinema could have been organized when it became clear to those in it that the building was on fire !? Perhaps the amount and toxicity of the smoke is so large, and the visibility has become generally zero (in order to somehow determine which way to run), that the only right decision (which seemed at that time) was to plug all the cracks into the hall and wait for outside help . The same decision could be quite logical if a person looking out into the corridor would see a continuous wall of smoke, without any signs of an open flame at all! After all, since there is no flame, then you can deal with smoke much faster! Is not it!?
    3) Another point not taken into account by the author of the article ... Do you have an answer - could the one who decided to lock the hall from the inside know that the fire alarm is not working, which means there is no response to a fire in the city itself !? After all, the very first thought that comes to a person’s head will be: “Once” there is a “fire, then surely one of the other visitors has already pulled out the fire warning handle, which means that firefighters already know about it and are in a hurry to help.” So you just need to wait for ambulance from them. After all, the fact that among those who have already run out of the mall there are almost certainly people who will report that there are people left in the cinema! Especially children!
    After all, who knew (except for the guards themselves, and the leadership of the mall) that this damned alarm had already been triggered and it was simply turned off !? Here you are ... today (already knowing a lot about the tragedy), passing through a shopping center, you are 100% sure that this fire alarm handle is definitely working !? Rather, just two weeks ago we were almost 100% sure that it was working! :(
    4) The responsibility of the one who locked the 3rd cinema from the inside ... No need to judge this person and do not wake yourself judged! After all, we don’t know if the available adults “in the blink of an eye” could correctly organize the children, try to provide them with at least some kind of protection from smoke / fire and, until everyone was completely evacuated, to make sure that everyone came out and everyone was saved !? After all, if I know (saw) that there is zero visibility in the corridor, and the smoke is so thick and pungent that in a minute it will cause completely toxic poisoning of the body, then do I dare to rush thoughtlessly into this “hell” from at least somehow more or less safe places? Especially with so many children!
    Perhaps the adults didn’t even know that for a minute or two, simple, dense thick clothes richly moistened with water could serve as an elementary “respirator”! And here are some questions ... where to get such an amount of water at all (after all, yes, peeing on all rags may not be enough); Will this improvised gas mask become an additional source of poisoning? Indeed, from chemistry it is known that some derivatives of plastics and other substances can form cyanide compounds when combined with water! And this is also almost certain death!
    And here’s the question for everyone: would anyone dare to risk children’s lives tearing them out of the “still safe place” through the gloomy darkness and the stench to the ephemeral exit in the mall, which seemed ephemeral in those conditions !?
    I'd!? Definitely not! Not even knowing for sure that I would definitely be able to bring all the children to a saving exit, I would also reasonably reasoned that it is better to wait for the rescuers "here"! Why? See point 2.

    Etc. etc! So alas, dear Igor Moiseev! I absolutely disagree with your second point voiced. At least, all the circumstances of this terrible tragedy have not yet been established. :(

    Well, the general summary is ... such as that of Captain Obvious! We have a rotten system (and first of all, the common responsibility of everyone, for all the others) and with this we have to do something for a long time !?
    So maybe let's start with ourselves?

    With respect to all and with sorrow for the dead! Earth rest in peace! And God bless us!
  32. cariperpaint
    cariperpaint April 2 2018 19: 29
    +3
    the author is too much. firstly, the guards are ordinary watchmen who are stupidly not even taught properly. recruiting simple guys who just do not know how to react correctly. let’s omit men's actions and just say about work. for 10-15 thousand rubles they are stupidly recruited by advertisement. I have come across so many times that you can write ramana. in fact, a real security guard with all the documents and knowledge, more importantly, is very expensive. they acted like cowards, which I don’t dispute, but this is a human reaction. it can be condemned or forgiven, but just as to the guards, claims to them do not make sense. there is such a routine in such institutions that my mother does not cry. and people in the hall are called idiots ... this is not our right. getting smart near the computer is easy. what decision would we make in that situation is a big question
  33. S_Baykala
    S_Baykala April 2 2018 20: 12
    +3
    Quote: 210ox
    Yes, as always. There are heroes and rats merged along the birom ... A chop who immediately self-destructed, adults who left children ..... I want to talk a little about another person. Everyone will understand about whom. His whole family died there .. . Such grief that I can’t convey ... I am sorry and sympathize with him ... Well, why do you, with manic perseverance, seek out, upload video footage to the network where people are running, crushing each other, suffocating in smoke .... This is a consequence. ..I do not understand this.

    And assuming (only assuming) that with these frames he signals that this should not be so, indicates flagrant violations. That his children died not in vain, that their death (no matter how cynical and cruel it may sound) save thousands of other lives? Do not judge and will not be judged.
  34. cradle
    cradle April 3 2018 06: 46
    +1
    Quote: bandabas
    I do not argue. Only such fires are not extinguished by a fire extinguisher unfortunately.

    Any fire begins with a fire, which is extinguished by a fire extinguisher. The fact that the occurrence of the outbreak was snapped is a fact.
  35. shuravi
    shuravi April 3 2018 11: 25
    +1
    Another such moment surfaced in the news against the background of hysteria checks.
    I’m talking about such “gifts” that the owners of some apartments receive.

    Say, irresponsible citizens are cutting stairs, brewing hatches.
    And not one EC journalist mentioned that this is another example of business greed. Designing security systems at the lowest cost. And the owner of such an apartment is faced with a choice, imaginary security, or a very real prospect of waiting for householders to be “guests”.
    1. Golovan Jack
      Golovan Jack April 3 2018 11: 39
      +5
      Quote: shuravi
      this is another example of business greed

      This is your next attempt to pull, um, an owl.
      In my apartment (the house of the 1982 year of construction), the exact same "security system" is.
      1. alstr
        alstr April 3 2018 17: 41
        +1
        Absolutely correct. In the USSR, according to the norms, it was supposed in houses above 9 floors to have such stairs, because there were no fire engines with such tall foresters then. And now their maximum height is 50 meters, i.e. maximum 20 floors.
        And what is set up with us?

        However, in many new homes, such stairs are not provided. As for hatches, you just need to immediately put electromagnetic locks there, which are tied to a fire alarm
      2. shuravi
        shuravi April 3 2018 18: 53
        +1
        Quote: Golovan Jack
        Quote: shuravi
        this is another example of business greed

        This is your next attempt to pull, um, an owl.
        In my apartment (the house of the 1982 year of construction), the exact same "security system" is.


        So the same was the "terrible" USSR. And the principle is for free. And now the market, new technologies.
  36. kugelfang
    kugelfang April 3 2018 11: 31
    +2
    Comrades, I would just like to draw the attention of everyone who responded to this article for a couple of points:
    1. The article, of course, was written with a predominance of emotions and sharp theses, not based on anything (this is about the instructions and those who write them, and about what the “Chopovites” should or should not). This is already noted in the comments.
    2. It is important to understand that in the modern world there is a fairly clear tendency to erode (and sometimes even give a negative meaning) to such concepts as decency, honor, valor, courage, etc. This directly concerns the male half. Today, it’s practically the norm for many “men” to wear appropriate “semi-female” clothes (the main thing here is individuality, not like everyone else), behind the back or at the computer yelling at the top of their lungs, which are all “bad”, and he is “good”, and how it comes to talking face-to-face - like “I didn’t”, “I didn’t think”, or just run away (there are no examples in everyday life), commit idiotic and immoral acts for the sake of “likes” or something else ( climb into a skyscraper, hit a pensioner or a girl, etc.) instead of real actions, go against the law, against the "system", do not care about the rest. You can list for a long time. Just at such moments as in Kemerovo, especially when there are children around, men have a special responsibility and duty. And the principle is “my hut from the edge”, only the whole was not here should prevail. If the “man” runs away in front of the child, then what kind of man is this — father, defender, support or “animal” ordinary?
    3. There are many reasons for this, as well as the tragedy in Kemerovo - this is the result of a combination of a whole system of factors. And the logical chains of causes and effects can be built quite long. And here, one of the most important factors, in my opinion, is the environment in which he is brought up, which is characterized, inter alia, by the lack of awareness by citizens of the inevitable responsibility, both legal and social. People from childhood get used to this - after all, you can write something on the phone or computer and not be responsible for what you wrote, and on TV or on YouTube every day they show how you can steal millions and get off with a fine or “conditional” punishment, you can bring down drunk a crowd of people, and then in front of everyone's eyes to rent a room and run away with the words "I was not driving," but to live quietly on. All these conditions have already been successfully created - capital or something else.
    4. In general, I mean that now it is extremely important “not to go with the flow”, not to sit in your “hut”, not to wait for the state or “power” to do everything for us, but you should try to comprehend what is happening personally with us, with those who are close by, with society and, starting with myself personally, to learn to make decisions and to do actions worthy of a Citizen, worthy of Men and children to bring up the same, and help the state (in the person of worthy people who are at the top) go ahead.
    Ps I wrote a little disconnected, but I hope it is clear ...
  37. L10n77
    L10n77 April 4 2018 20: 39
    +1
    Quote: Stas157
    Several fatal mistakes came together, without the absence of at least one of them the Kemerovo tragedy would not have happened, or it would not have been in such numbers.
    1) Finishing the shopping center from toxic materials that emit strong and toxic smoke. (And this is after Lame Horse!)
    2) The absence of a fire alarm. (The ideal option should not be a local alarm, but connected directly to the fire and private security.)
    3) A number of elementary questions. Where are the means of automatic fire extinguishing? Why fire exits were blocked. Why didn’t the guards of the huge center manage the rescue of people? (They didn’t even open fire exits. For some reason, they forgot about the whole hall of the children sitting in it.) Why didn’t the audio alert work, why did the administration from there who did not manage the situation? Why did the first firefighters who arrived did not rush to save the children, although people begged to do so?
    The shopping center was led by people (most likely they didn’t manage at all), who let the situation go by their own accord and did not answer for anything, there was a complete mess with fire safety measures. Regional oversight bodies also did not monitor the situation, allowed this mess to be. Well, the federal authorities did nothing so that after Lame Horse such a tragedy would not be repeated again, would not conduct any kind of organizational work with regional authorities. There is a collapse of power and an inactive state system.

    The fire alarm was turned off, the security of the shopping center and the cinema workers are 2 completely different offices, the more there are several entrances and exits to the shopping center, so the questions about the children “forgotten” in the cinema are unambiguously for the cinema staff, not the security of the shopping center, but about the security itself, I came across this situation: a person at the school worked as a security guard repeatedly tried for drugs, that’s how we have PSCs go through and carry out candidate checks.
  38. Trotil42
    Trotil42 April 6 2018 14: 16
    +1
    The author’s surname corresponds to his orientation and filth .. lies ... lies ... at one guard the order of the red star for the Afghan at another .. medals ... one got to the hospital with burns of the respiratory tract .. SC initiates criminal proceedings under the Ministry of Emergencies. ..for failure to take measures .. the main Ministry of Emergency Situations gives testimonies ... Ministry of Emergency Situations posted photos of children burned in instagram .. how are you? The doors were open ... and some of the spectators came out ... the rest closed in the hall .... the most vile PR at this ...