Military Review

Will the "Russian battle fighter, our hand-to-hand fight" revive?

75
Karate and Hollywood


Who served in the army knows perfectly well: sport is an integral part of combat training. Military science has been developing rapidly lately. We talked with a warrior, an athlete, and a significant person in the world of martial arts Alexander Kunshin about how the sport incorporated in it transforms.



Alexander is a professional athlete, martial artist, and one of the founders of the Thai Fight Federation of Russia. For many years he worked as chairman of the sports committee of the Resurrection district of the Moscow region. He initiated and conducted hundreds of sporting tournaments, cups and championships in various types of martial arts in Russia. He founded the school of military traditions "Savior". In it, he teaches everyone who is no longer sports, as before, but applied types of Russian, Cossack hand-to-hand combat, as well as working with a knife and possession of a sword.

- Alexander, about karate, aikido, judo, Thai boxing, Brazilian jiu-jitsu and other exotic forms of martial arts in our country are known for young and old. At the same time, the traditional directions of Russian martial arts still remain in the shadows. Do they develop at all? And can they compete with all of the above?

- For decades, Hollywood has been banging the thought that only in the East do they know how to fight. But besides the movie there is also life. Most foreign oriental systems are still martial arts. There are international federations that hold tournaments in a particular sport. In our country, they also have. By promoting the same Eastern (and not only) martial arts in Russia, these federations receive state support. This is a whole industry. Almost every day new sections open, a lot of championships are held. All this is beautiful, spectacular, attracts attention. And those who want to learn how to defend themselves in a fight or are eager to reach sporting heights, go to these sections and clubs.

Ethnodic combat

- Is it bad?

- It's good. On the carpet, tatami and in the ring boys turn into men. But our Russian martial arts are not only not inferior to the popular martial arts, but sometimes they are superior in many ways. And the most important thing is that our ethnic code is registered in our military traditions. Our ancestors practiced their skills in real fights. All actions in hand-to-hand combat are based on the culture of the movement, typical of the culture of the people as a whole. And we are much closer to studying our applied type - Russian hand-to-hand combat. And since it is applied, the preparation is carried out in real life, where there are no tatami, rules and judges. Just today, Russian and Cossack hand-to-hand fighting is less known and promoted, that's all.

- But they can already be found on the Internet ...

- The Internet does not provide an accurate picture and a complete image of Russian and Cossack hand-to-hand combat. And there are not so many masters practicing this kind, there is no single method. There is no sports direction, respectively, there is no federation that would receive accreditation and state support.

- When did it become known about Russian hand-to-hand combat?

- In the late eighties, early nineties. Then all these previously secret technology had just begun to come out of the walls of the special services. At that time, I remember, the first film about the Russian hand-to-hand fight was released - “The painful hold”. It was then that the “Russian hand-to-hand fight” brand was attached to this kind of martial arts.

- What is the essence of this direction and its fundamental difference from other martial arts?

- First, this is our direction. It is based on the natural movements of the body, peculiar to the Russian people. These movements are characteristic of all spheres of life activity - in dancing, in the manner of movement, in work. Everything is not built on techniques and formal exercises - like the same kata in karate, but on the principles on which techniques and strikes are built. There is no final phase of a strike or action. Everything flows from one to another, as in life. The system of this battle is to some extent inherent in all military and martial arts. It is practical, energy-intensive, very effective.

Russian hand-to-hand combat is an applied form. There are no rules on the battlefield. On the street - too. Understanding this simple and cruel fact makes adjustments to the entire training process. We must be ready for any stress, any surprises, turns and challenges of fate. And the most important thing is that the warrior is trained to meet face-to-face with the enemy at any second. That is what brings victory in unequal conditions. Take two units that are fighting with each other. More chance of winning those who are willing to break the enemy with his teeth. Spirit is always stronger than flesh. He wins it.

What we have, do not store. Waiting for others to appreciate.

- ... if this type is applied, then, accordingly, it does not develop as a mass sport?

- Absolutely. But mass sport is also an advertisement. In comparison with martial arts, our direction of advertising is much less. Therefore, so little information about our schools. To compete against this background is very difficult. But what is interesting - our masters are very popular in the East. Seminars conducted by them in China, Japan, are in great demand among Eastern masters.

- And how to explain it?

- Take the same economy. The Japanese, not having their own inventions, are in first place for innovation. The Chinese copy the most advanced technology. So in martial arts as well. They invite ours, watch, analyze, adapt and improve their systems. And then through Hollywood and martial arts will sell them to us. Those who took it all.

- But we always had our own - the same sambo, for example. Quite a popular sport. About him filmed a lot of movies.

- Today's sambo is fundamentally different from the one that was laid by his godfather Kharlampiev. By the way, the combat and applied components of this sport have been classified for athletes for many years and were used only by special forces. And the sporting trend in our time has largely lost the very component that is the hallmark of Russian hand-to-hand combat. Kharlampiev was a student of the famous Oshchepkov, who for many years studied judo in Japan. By the way, it is believed that it was judo that formed the basis of sambo. I have my own opinion on this. Oschepkov went to Japan as an experienced fighter. Prior to that, he was known as a successful fist fighter and regularly participated in popular amusements. He was also a career officer, participated in the battles. He had to fight hand to hand enemies. And here is the question: what did he then learn from Japanese masters?

- Judo techniques.

- Of course. But the most important thing, in my opinion, is in the other. He learned from the Japanese to systematize the combat system. After all, before this, we didn’t have our own unarmed combat system. There were fist fights and wrestling competitions - on holidays. The skills worked out in these popular amusements were in fact very serious. They are not inferior to the Eastern and European counterparts. And sometimes they were superior. "... I learned the enemy a lot of that day, which means Russian fighting is remote, our hand-to-hand fighting! .." said the poet, "... these samurais cannot be approached ..." said the Japanese about the Russian Cossacks. It was true. The speed of the Cossack saber strike exceeds the speed of any other cold weapons. And taking the systematization of judo, a pupil of Oshchepkov Kharlampiev created our national system - Sambo. At the heart of the work of the old school sambists, students of Kharlampiev, there is a clear rational approach. Here the foundation is the understanding of biomechanics. Many of the techniques exactly correspond to the principles of today's Russian hand-to-hand combat, with the only difference being that they are adapted to the sport.

- If the people already knew how to fight and fight, why was it necessary to create a system?

- The revolution has destroyed a whole layer of popular traditions, including military ones. Urgently needed a replacement. So it was created in the 1930 year - first for the NKVD and the internal troops. In 1938, the USSR Sports Committee included Sambo among the sports cultivated in the country. Sambo is rather a Soviet type of martial arts combining many types of folk wrestling. But, unfortunately, this struggle cannot convey the whole variety of possibilities of our military culture.

- What is the difference between the sports approach and the applied one? What is characteristic of our direction?

- The main goal in any sport is to achieve the highest result. The salary of a coach directly depends on the victories of his students. This is the basis of his whole methodology. And the foundation motions suffer from this. Often this leads to injury to the athlete. In addition, in sport there are competition rules that are not and cannot be in real combat. The sports method does not take into account the culture of movement inherent in one or another people. So it turns out that Russian people have been studying the combat system for years, the methodology of which was developed in the East. This is despite the fact that we have a different anthropology, a different biomechanics, a different thinking. By developing someone else's martial arts, we are moving away from our own culture. And by absorbing someone else's, we become weaker, we lose the genetic code of our ancestors, who, by the way, beat our today's teachers. The goal of the applied approach is to survive. Survive in the most difficult, extreme situations. And, of course, different base. Russian and Cossack hand-to-hand fighting are based on the natural movements prescribed by our ethnocode. After all, before the birth, the child lived in an environment where the ability to fight was important. Through dances, games, competitions, fistfights and wrestling, he absorbed the motor biomechanics. Having matured, he became already a serious fighter. That is why we have not survived any treatises on how to fight. In the East, after all, nobody went to the wall. Therefore, there were created schools where it was possible to learn this art. And for us to fight was the same routine as breathing, dancing on holidays or singing - in the mood.



National Business Cards

- Do government agencies help promote Russian martial arts?

- Sensitive subject. Any state promotes and develops its national martial art. They are the calling card of the country. Here, they say, look, we have our own military system, thanks to which we survived in this world. And those who do not have such, as it were, do not have the right to exist. How, for example, we, having no system, won the wars? This is impossible! - the inhabitant will tell. And then they will believe that the Second World was won by the Americans, and we were under oppression all our lives and in general - a talentless people. And the Japanese who lost that war are promoting Judo, Aikido, Karate, Ju-Jitsu throughout the world. Thais are investing heavily in Thai boxing. There is even a Muay Thai Academy. Koreans do their best to promote taekwondo. Filipinos - knife fighting, which, strictly speaking, has never been Filipino. They simply sketched a drawing of the battle of the Spaniards, who at one time colonized their country, adapted it to their anthropology, and gave out someone else's school for their own. And only we with maniacal persistence develop foreign karate, grappling, jiu-jitsu and other martial arts that have come to us from abroad, promoted by Hollywood and the media. At the same time, we do not notice or simply ignore our military traditions, dating back centuries.

In our country, the creation of any federations and their promotion falls entirely on the shoulders of enthusiasts. For example, the Federation of the “Kazarl” saber, which was very popular in the Cossack environment, originated on the pure enthusiasm of Nikolai Yeremichev. And today, it has not yet received state support, although it has aroused genuine interest on the part of state structures.

It is much easier to promote the world famous martial arts. Schools of Russian and Cossack hand-to-hand fighting were created relatively recently. They have to prove their worth. And competition in application systems can do more harm than good.

“But nevertheless, skills need to be honed in practice ...”

- There are two ways. The first is to adapt to the already existing types of martial arts: army hand-to-hand combat, combat sambo, MMA, etc. The second is to create a fundamentally new sports and mass trend, which will be based on age-old traditions. As an option - to develop our art through festivals. But in any case, we need support at the state level if we want to have our national business cards in the martial arts world. And these business cards should be a lot. It is they who will once again show everyone our ancient ability to win on the battlefield. In small Japan there are more than ten types of martial arts, in China there are a lot of wushu styles. And we only have Sambo, and it comes from the USSR. And now, like air, we need our schools of our traditional military systems. It is they who give the base, which not only does not destroy health (unlike many sports systems), but, on the contrary, strengthens it. And now on this basis, you can learn any kind of martial arts.

Ideally, we need a state program for the development of national martial arts. We need the same interest of our state as in other countries. Only in this way will we be able to declare ourselves on the world stage as a power created by the victories of our ancestors - the very ones who nailed their shield at the gates of Constantinople.

https://vk.com/id164025654?z=video164025654_456239045%2Fdf3b7c8d4fc4388b06%2Fpl_wall_164025654
Author:
Photos used:
Igor Moiseev
75 comments
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  1. Cananecat
    Cananecat 27 March 2018 05: 48
    +7
    And now the advertisement for the Spas ...
    1. Vard
      Vard 27 March 2018 06: 19
      +2
      God made people different, and the colt gave them a chance ...
    2. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 27 March 2018 07: 16
      +7
      Quote: Canecat
      And now the advertisement for Spas.

      What is wrong with that? Not just another Doom advertise.
  2. K.A.S.
    K.A.S. 27 March 2018 06: 01
    +4
    You can write simply: state give me money !!!
  3. Razvedka_Boem
    Razvedka_Boem 27 March 2018 06: 13
    +9
    Competitions in application systems can hardly be organized; they are sharpened in order to incapacitate the enemy as quickly as possible.
    Therefore, competitions are not held, say, between those who use the Kadochnikov system, because it will end with severe injuries or the death of one of the fighters.
    With regard to the army, according to the criterion of training time-effectiveness, I think Thai boxing is optimal. Now teaching melee in the army depends on the instructor, if he is a boxer, then emphasis on striking techniques, if a wrestler, accordingly, a bias on the fight. There is no complete system.
    However, given the vanishingly low probability of encountering a hand-to-hand combat, I consider the main goal of these classes to develop psychological stability.
    In principle, it is enough to work out straight and lateral, a couple of deuces with them, a kick on the thigh and knee and a couple of throws before automatism.
    Everything else should already go as applied - blows to the throat, etc.
    1. Titsen
      Titsen 27 March 2018 06: 42
      +1
      Quote: Razvedka_Boem
      Competitions in application systems can hardly be organized; they are sharpened in order to incapacitate the enemy as quickly as possible.
      Therefore, competitions are not held, say, between those who use the Kadochnikov system, because it will end with severe injuries or the death of one of the fighters.
      With regard to the army, according to the criterion of training time-effectiveness, I think Thai boxing is optimal. Now teaching melee in the army depends on the instructor, if he is a boxer, then emphasis on striking techniques, if a wrestler, accordingly, a bias on the fight. There is no complete system.
      However, given the vanishingly low probability of encountering a hand-to-hand combat, I consider the main goal of these classes to develop psychological stability.
      In principle, it is enough to work out straight and lateral, a couple of deuces with them, a kick on the thigh and knee and a couple of throws before automatism.
      Everything else should already go as applied - blows to the throat, etc.


      As an example of stiffness and protection - Kosiki Karate: full contact in protective equipment.

      The youngest son is engaged!
      1. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 27 March 2018 07: 18
        0
        Quote: Titsen
        full contact in protective equipment

        ARB also implies full contact, only there the battle is not limited to only shock equipment.
    2. Nick
      Nick 27 March 2018 12: 35
      +1
      Quote: Razvedka_Boem
      Competitions in application systems can hardly be organized; they are sharpened in order to incapacitate the enemy as quickly as possible.

      Yes, and, as a rule, not as spectacular as sports martial arts. But for that they are more effective in battle. Entertainment, beauty and efficiency are not always the same
    3. Glory1974
      Glory1974 27 March 2018 13: 50
      +1
      Competitions in application systems can hardly be organized

      in hand-to-hand combat, including in protective equipment. So if you want everything can be done.
      1. Razvedka_Boem
        Razvedka_Boem 27 March 2018 19: 28
        +1
        Catch a hand on a kink and break on reflexes .. No shields can save.
        Getting into the head with your hand is quite difficult, especially if the opponent is not lower than you are in class. It remains only to get closer. With a sufficient reaction, you can get close and move on to the fight. No protection will save when stuck head down in the mats, and even more so in the asphalt.
        I’m not a fighter, for example.
        We can discuss, but you have your own experience, I have mine.
        Therefore, I believe everyone will be in their own opinion.
        My opinion is what they show on TV - window dressing. Despite helmets, shields and hard knocks, this is a show. The real battle will end in death.
        And there which is given or SPAS or Kadochnikov does not matter. Whoever survives is right. And it depends on many factors.
        Dixi.
    4. michell
      michell 29 March 2018 15: 06
      +2
      Quote: Razvedka_Boem
      Competitions in application systems can hardly be organized; they are sharpened in order to incapacitate the enemy as quickly as possible.


      If to formulate more precisely and without a bluff, the goal of applied (combat) martial arts is to KILL the enemy. That is why the “Kadochnikov system” (which is just the traditional Russian hand-to-hand combat) was not widely used - there are no rules, as well as a sports version of the fight.
    5. aybolyt678
      aybolyt678 April 2 2018 11: 03
      0
      Quote: Razvedka_Boem
      Therefore, competitions are not held, say, between those who use the Kadochnikov system, because it will end with severe injuries or the death of one of the fighters.

      there is no Kadochnikov system. there is not a single reproduced specialist in this area.
  4. bistrov.
    bistrov. 27 March 2018 07: 38
    +2
    All his life, from an early youth, from 13 years old, was interested in martial arts. He started with sambo, then boxing, then serious freestyle wrestling, in the 70s the general passion for karate did not pass me by.

    With age, understanding has come, everything is good, but kickboxing with the addition of throwing techniques is optimal, with the subsequent use of bone-breaking techniques and strikes for finishing.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 27 March 2018 18: 01
      +1
      Quote: bistrov.
      Understanding came with age, everything is good, but kickboxing with the addition of throwing tricks is optimal

      I thought so too, until I ran into Kadochnikov
      1. rasteer
        rasteer 27 March 2018 19: 43
        +2
        Kadochnikov is specific, far from everyone can understand what he is teaching, and even less can be applied. But if you understand, then you can impose on almost any basis.
  5. bunta
    bunta 27 March 2018 07: 48
    +7
    As soon as the national definition is applied to the training system, you can immediately lower such a "system" into the toilet from the point of view of combat training. It doesn’t matter if it’s karate or Russian hand-to-hand fighting.
    Sambo was originally created as a supranational system. Self defense without weapons. Simple and clear.
    The preparation technique is also simple. The study of basic principles in terms of biomechanics, anatomy, physics and psychology. Setting the main techniques - strokes, throws, captures, pain. And until turning blue, working out on the carpet. By 500 shots per training, or by a box of ammo in the dash.
    1. novel66
      novel66 27 March 2018 09: 38
      +1
      karate (judo. aikido) in kosovorotki - no different from the same in kimono
    2. Onepamop
      Onepamop 27 March 2018 12: 45
      +4
      Sounds good, but there are some problems.

      Do not drop into the toilet. Let me explain the idea - in the country the dominance of oriental styles. Just an incredible amount of them. And it is actively popularized and promoted. There are specialized associations. Preferences are exploited for the operation of sports facilities. Aikido is a living example - enter any room - there is a portrait of Ueshiba. There is no portrait of Kharlampiev. This is a SPECIFIC example of the implementation of the approach - national - into the toilet. But for some reason, the national local always flies into the toilet. All national foreign - does not fly.

      And this ... In Russian styles there are no "tricks" most often. And even more so blue working on the carpet. They, these notorious "Russian styles", are precisely the rational development of everything previously created. After the bacchanalia of the 90s, when karate was not involved in paralytics, local and often very large masters with their vision of martial arts grew out of these enthusiasts. Because then they just faced the fact that a lot does not work as stated. And on the basis of their experience, one has grown up that is no worse, no poorer, and often more practical and clear in explanation than the early Eastern one. And it’s more practical just because it is based on the invaluable experience of conflict interaction, which was obtained in the wild.

      About 500 shots and about a box of cartridges is very cool. PM cartridge - 50 rubles, a small box will come out. Okay, money, but I'm thoroughly tired of hundreds of shots (if I really give it all). And I have been shooting regularly for more than 10 years. The total cost of my shooting training is about 10k per year. Dollars. And I don’t wear it out too much - I SUPPORT the level simply. And if you really rest on a convex result, then you need three times more. Who will pay?

      In short, I propose to use common sense in everything. This is the essence of normal Russian style.
      1. bunta
        bunta 27 March 2018 19: 37
        0
        Quote: Onepamop
        Cartridge PM - 50 rubles

        Where are these prices? I offer wholesale by 12 with my interest.
    3. rasteer
      rasteer 27 March 2018 19: 54
      0
      As soon as the national definition is applied to the training system, you can immediately lower such a "system" into the toilet from the point of view of combat training.
      If you level the combat and army training, I agree. But still, in the current situation of martial arts, this is one of the sports that attract children, youth and here the cultural and patriotic component becomes equal if more important than applied. Because it will be easy to learn how to beat the face, but not everyone can understand the meaning of the beat. laughing
  6. Letnab
    Letnab 27 March 2018 08: 24
    0
    I wonder why the difference in anthropology is pointed out so much. In any nation, nationality there are thin, dense, physically full people. Accordingly, each type of people has a slightly different culture of movement. In martial arts, from the very beginning they learn to move from scratch, essentially lay the same culture of movement and then hone it. In boxing, the movements are closer to natural, if we talk about our, still Soviet school, I still study with such an old coach, and I was surprised to understand that some of our children's games are very consistent with basic boxing skills ... I didn’t deal with Slavic martial arts, but met, so they, too, are close in their base to boxing (I'm talking about percussion technique).
    The difference between martial arts is that after a long training in movements, they begin to adapt what was learned for sparing, and at the initial stage in sparing this does not work out very well. Boxing from the very beginning makes you work with a partner, respectively, and in practice, fighters get earlier.
    1. novel66
      novel66 27 March 2018 09: 40
      +3
      everything I heard about boxers meeting with other fighters speaks in favor of boxing
      1. Knizhnik
        Knizhnik 27 March 2018 10: 17
        0
        This is exactly wink , only now modern boxing has become more refined, but do boxers know that at their dawn they had a larger arsenal, and was used in combination with knives.
        1. novel66
          novel66 27 March 2018 10: 26
          0
          who wants to know will find out
      2. rasteer
        rasteer 27 March 2018 20: 02
        0
        everything I heard about boxers meeting with other fighters speaks in favor of boxing
        The difficult question is the same as if the hooligans gave the crowbar on the head, but if the fighter jawed the boxer right away, the number of boxers injured in street battles was no less than the winners. And how many boxers like that just sat down because they beat me without thinking. The trouble with boxing is that they learn to beat, but there’s no reason to think about the consequences.
    2. av58
      av58 27 March 2018 14: 43
      +3
      Regarding the difference in anthropology, the author’s remark was very correct. Asians have slightly different proportions of the body, arms and legs, and they differ in different Asians. I am generally silent about growth, a common place. Not counting this is weird. Accordingly, national systems were built with an unconscious account of their own characteristics. I do not really understand the pathos of promoting the "Russian" national school of hand-to-hand combat, everything has long been the property of the world (maybe with rare exceptions of some exotic schools wink ).
  7. konstantin68
    konstantin68 27 March 2018 08: 40
    +2
    Quote: bistrov.
    All his life, from an early youth, from 13 years old, was interested in martial arts. He started with sambo, then boxing, then serious freestyle wrestling, in the 70s the general passion for karate did not pass me by.

    With age, understanding has come, everything is good, but kickboxing with the addition of throwing techniques is optimal, with the subsequent use of bone-breaking techniques and strikes for finishing.

    I agree with you. I have an old school, but my son went through a chain: taekwondo kickboxing. Now engaged in ARB and pulls the stalls.
  8. Engineer
    Engineer 27 March 2018 08: 53
    +1
    For mummers, a saber will be given a costume, a whip - a remedy against women with stockings on their heads, but you can’t even remember about fists
    1. rasteer
      rasteer 27 March 2018 20: 04
      0
      Quote: Engineer
      Nagayka - a remedy against women with stockings on her head,
      About women and stockings did not understand wassat
  9. sleeve
    sleeve 27 March 2018 08: 56
    +3
    M-ya ... Go Oshchepkov wrote the same thing in "VO", complaining that the ethnic code is being clamped? I apologize, but I observe all these "attempts" to lead the process of "reanimation" of the RRB from the late 80s. So what? "UNIBOS-integrated tram there with training systems!", "Kadochnikov-tram there with training systems ... already in the army!". Ole? Can it really be to sit down at a laptop, consult with specialists starting from special fighters, ending with dentists (well, there isn’t much difficulty here) and give the READY system to the mountain? Simple, capable of improvement, justified in the effectiveness of training (OFP in any sport is the basis of success). Create it and start to promote. But only give out the product. PRODUCT. And not sharing considerations. Just mentioned martial arts, in addition to zealotism and the competition system, have these harmonious systematized structures of both functionality (tricks, strokes) and training systems, which makes them understandable and accessible. And so ... So you can argue for a long time. And yet ... It will not work to take and replace the remaining systems in the wake of patriotism with Russian battle. No way. These are decades at best. But to make it effective-NEEDED. For there is one fundamental difference. What we observe in remnants and passages, almost destroyed or classified to date, has proven its EXCELLENCE in comparison with the rest of ANY systems for centuries. So let's ... There are reasons for this.
    1. Knizhnik
      Knizhnik 27 March 2018 10: 30
      0
      Can it really be to sit down at a laptop, consult with specialists starting from special fighters, ending with dentists (well, there isn’t much difficulty here) and give the READY system to the mountain?

      Indeed, without enthusiasm multiplied by an effective theoretical base. The biography of Pierre Barusi, who revived the disappearing savat, is indicative
  10. Knizhnik
    Knizhnik 27 March 2018 10: 11
    0
    Ideally, we need a state program for the development of national types of martial arts. We need the same interest of our state as in other countries.

    An approach based on the principle of free competition would be optimal: show what you can and they will reach for you. People go to study where they are really taught something, if not, then they quickly drop out and look for something else. And the "siloviki" already know what they need.
  11. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 27 March 2018 10: 18
    +6
    Russian hand-to-hand combat ...
    A melee is needed to educate a warrior. Without it, nothing will work. But we never had anything remotely resembling oriental schools. Why? Because we are a warrior people. And the mysterious tricks that will give an advantage in any battle, such a Russian person could not rub.
    The Russian people really fought all the time. Everyone at least once in his life, but ended up in a real battle. But in battle you quickly realize that there are no miracles. There are no hand-to-hand magic tricks that will make you an "invincible fighter." So to feed the teacher for many years for the fact that he will show you the top-secret technique “a drunken dragon will fall from a tree”, no one would.
    Instead, our ancestors developed what helps to win. Namely - strength, coordination, fine motor skills and most importantly. Indestructible fighting spirit and a sense of elbow. A furious and calm ability to go forward, holding the line firmly with his comrades. That is, the only hand-to-hand fight with which Russia was strong was wall-to-wall combat. But only. There was nothing else, all sorts of tricks used for singles, it is more likely for the amusement of people. But the Russian wall is not suitable for creating federations and cutting dough. Alas...
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 27 March 2018 18: 06
      +1
      Quote: Mikhail3
      There was nothing else

      I agree. If a person could easily carry with him a knife, an ax, a brush and so on - why would he fight without a weapon?
      1. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 27 March 2018 18: 10
        +1
        Basically then, so as not to kill each other during training, but simply sensitively receive on the physiognomy for training. But with a knife and a brush - this is also a melee) And so you are right, of course.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 27 March 2018 18: 16
          0
          Quote: Mikhail3
          Basically then, so as not to kill each other during training, but simply sensitively receive physiognomy for training

          So for this stenotic battle it is
          Quote: Mikhail3
          But with a knife and a brush - this is also a melee)

          Nevertheless, I mean hand-to-hand combat. But this is nothing more than terminology, of course.
          1. rasteer
            rasteer 27 March 2018 20: 29
            +2
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Nevertheless, I mean hand-to-hand combat.

            Well, as if there is it. but if you recall everything that is written about the war after the spread of a gunshot. you can see that hand-to-hand combat is present everywhere, in the form of close combat, in which everything is used including a firearm. The main sign of hand-to-hand combat is the distance at which it can be used as an unarmed battle. so any kind of hand weapon.
    2. rasteer
      rasteer 27 March 2018 20: 18
      +1
      Quote: Mikhail3
      The Russian people really fought all the time.

      By and large, this is true for most countries of the world, and if you consider hand-to-hand combat not as an art of war, but as a way to gain, protect your place in the world, then until the end of WWII and even later it was a necessary skill for any man on Earth, except that the monks and they were not alien.
    3. Anti-Corr.
      Anti-Corr. 27 March 2018 20: 53
      0
      Quote: Mikhail3
      But in battle, you quickly realize that there are no miracles

      Different things happen in battle, a kalashmat without bullets normally penetrates into the belly, and with a helmet you can easily pierce your head, but this is not a “fight” in childhood as snowballs in the king of the mountains.
    4. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 28 March 2018 04: 01
      +2
      Quote: Mikhail3
      Indestructible fighting spirit and a sense of elbow. A furious and calm ability to go forward, holding the line firmly with his comrades. That is, the only hand-to-hand fight with which Russia was strong was wall-to-wall combat. But only.

      I agree with you! The Russian bayonet battle (which the enemies were so afraid of) was, as it were, a continuation of the "wall-to-wall" battle, only with weapons and without "rules"! And in the "wall-mounted" battle it is very difficult to apply "excesses" such as "eastern techniques": somersaults and the like ...
      1. rasteer
        rasteer 28 March 2018 21: 18
        0
        bayonet battle (which the enemies were so afraid of) was, as it were, a continuation of the "wall-to-wall" battle
        Not at all. Give the boxer a rifle with a bayonet and put against the well-trained infantryman the best thing the boxer does is drop the barrel and work with his hands. Too different skills are stenotic (even the most extreme) and bayonet fighting. Here, if you do not teach a fighter, because the skill is not stenotic (although walls with sticks, knives, and cassettes were considered quite normal), or a hunter (although hunting with horned cattle almost disappeared by the 20th century) or the lucky guy was just lucky. But most likely the point is that not so much the ability to handle a bayonet made the Russians the scariest in the bayonet (the British were considered the best for a long time), but the fact that we think in a fight is not standard.
        1. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 29 March 2018 01: 06
          +2
          Quote: rasteer
          bayonet battle (which the enemies were so afraid of) was, as it were, a continuation of the "wall-to-wall" battle
          By no means.

          You are too literally looking at my comment! When I spoke of bayonet fighting as a continuation of the wall-mounted, I did not imagine a boxer with a rifle! Training in bayonet fighting in the Russian army also began with the instruction "to keep order"! It is very important in the ranks of "elbow feeling", emotional and physical support of each other, the ability to quickly respond to "change of the opponent", "lateral vision" (i.e. visual control of the space surrounding oneself) ..... these properties are inherent in " stenotic "battle.
  12. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 27 March 2018 11: 23
    +2
    ((You can simply write: state give me money !! )) ... Here is perhaps the most correct commentary, reflecting the essence of all the "sorrows" regarding the spread of "Russian styles"! How many of them (Russian styles) have appeared since the end of the 80-beginning of the 90's? And about each "creator-sensei" he was in a hurry to inform that the origins of the style go either to the wise men, then to the Vikings or the alien tribe .... or to BabaYaga, who is forced to create her own style in order to defend herself from the attacker on Kashchei’s girl’s honor .. . That's just if you try to joke around the Pskov, Novgorod. Yaroslavl and other "gimmicks" (that is, the "old" villages ...). Then, more often, it turns out that they didn’t even hear about the "bracken" and "belongings "... Yes. Muzzles beat ...." wall to wall happened and "walked", but in a simple way ... without "excesses"! And if you look closely at the “Russo-Sensei”, then they suddenly “open” the Russian “outdated” styles after practicing a certain amount of karate, judo (even jiu-jitsu ...), combat sambo ... Many of them did not have very significant successes in the listed martial arts, but their significance was “to feel hot” ... at least on a provincial scale ... and better on an all-Russian ... And here is the time (!) - "Ole, ole , ole ... Russia, forward! " So the Russian "Kans" and "Ryu" began to appear, like mushrooms after the rain! Do not misunderstand me! I don’t want to whack indiscriminately “Russian styles”! In this “list” there are, in my opinion, very successful “examples” ... I like, for example, “Izvor”, “Buza” ... but to deal specifically with any of I wouldn’t. There are frank "charlatans" among the "Russian styles". For example, Ryabko's System .... There are other similar ones ... arrows, strikes, and blinks (miles sorry! I didn’t set myself a “super task” - to remember the names!) If they say in China or Japan that their styles have existed for centuries, then there is evidence to confirm this! Are there any doubters about the Okinawan Goju-ryu or the Chinese Wing Chun, “The White Crane Fist?” Can successful, effective “remodels” appear? Of course! Many Korean styles can be attributed to them (such as “southern” and “northern”) ... some Filipino, Indonesian (take all of Southeast Asia!) Of the “Russian styles” is “Izvor”, the Kadochnikov system, and the ARB. Can I name the "style" No. 1? No, there is no such style. But if they asked me: where, in martial arts, to record a son, I would advise (depending on what is nearby): MMA, Kudo, Goju-ryu ... My Korean teacher was certified in one of the Hapkido associations, but I doubt that he "taught" the "pure" Hapkido even to one of the 3 associations ... Since he was fond of practically all martial arts, which then could be found out about. Seriously, he was engaged in karate.ju-do, combat sambo for a long time ... and something else was there.!. Somehow. On the Internet I watched a video about Hapkido, so I did not "recognize" it! "My" Hapkido is more like modern Kudo! Watching videos on the Internet about various (!) Martial arts, I continually “discover” in them extremely similar techniques (techniques)! That’s why I say that it’s difficult to choose a “concrete” style because similar techniques are used in different styles. Now, the great thing is the internet!
    1. av58
      av58 27 March 2018 14: 45
      0
      About "quackery" Ryabko I would beware wink
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 27 March 2018 15: 52
        +1
        Quote: av58
        About "quackery" Ryabko I would beware

        Agreed ... belay . I will keep silent while in the "rag"!
      2. rasteer
        rasteer 27 March 2018 20: 44
        +1
        Quote: av58
        About "quackery" Ryabko I would beware

        From what? A man exploits other people's achievements but gives them off as an "exclusif" wassat From the beginning of the 80s, I was engaged in martial arts, from the beginning of the 90s I was familiar with Russian schools ... different, talked to Kadochnikov, Bazlov, Belov, was interested in different secondary schools of the Republic of Belarus ... I didn’t hear such Ryabko. wassat I specifically looked at this. Conclusion Well, he pulled from different places, different tricks and all. Maybe he is not a charlatan, but he doesn’t pull on the "sensei" either.
  13. oleole97
    oleole97 27 March 2018 13: 32
    +2
    But for some reason, in melee and in WWI and WWII, ours defeated. Both in the West and in the East.
    1. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 27 March 2018 14: 32
      +2
      Quote: oleole97
      But for some reason, in melee and in WWI and WWII, ours defeated. Both in the West and in the East

      Good question ! It should be borne in mind that the Russian "school" of bayonet fighting has developed in the army in Russia for a long time! "Wall-mounted" battles in the villages accustomed to "close contact" ... the manner of wearing a knife behind a boot was widespread in Russia ... "bootloader." No one prevented this .... how! The tool is very necessary in any job! But no one guaranteed that the knife was used only for planing spoons .... therefore, many could have the habit of not being afraid of a knife skirmish. Cossacks with their "branded" weapon-saber and readiness for war .. Russian people (both Cossacks and peasants) often "contacted" the steppe peoples, highlanders .... and adopted military experience from them. In Sholokhov’s story “Quiet Don” there is an episode when Melekhov uses the “Kalmyk” trick against the Red Army soldier trying to detain Grigory .. And the Russian mentality, which is more calm about death, unlike the West European one. For example, have you heard about berserkers? In the stories of Russian writers about the Russian people, the expression is found: to enter into "rage" in extreme situations ... I think that this ... something similar to the fury of the Berserkers ....... "rage", often not clear neither the "West" nor the "East", which scares them.
      1. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 27 March 2018 18: 17
        0
        I enjoyed reading your comments. I practically agree with everything. But about berserkers - think again. Why do we need a warrior who does not distinguish between his own and strangers, attacking everything in front of him and behind him, where the devils are turning, chopping trees directly on the battlefield, dying of exhaustion ... All this wild plague is constantly found in stories about berserkers.
        So, the surest explanation of all this is ordinary, condo, old and forever young cowardice. It’s scary to go into battle, especially when you’re not a warrior, but just a Scandinavian thief - a Varangian. A thug and a murderer, but not a warrior. And then the Scandinavians drank some rubbish. Enough recipes. It was packed up and forward! There is no fear, why not wave until the hand falls off?
        1. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 28 March 2018 02: 33
          +1
          Quote: Mikhail3
          But about berserkers - think again.

          The mention of berserkers may not be the best example, but at the time of the comment another example didn’t turn up! Nevertheless, I didn’t talk about “Russian berserkers” and didn’t “attribute” to the Russians an obsession with the Scandinavians .. I only “drew a parallel” ... and “parallels” never “merge.” As we were taught at school. I mentioned "rage" or, if you like, "excitement", "fighting excitement" ....
          PS Something you have a negative attitude towards berserkers .... But the "stories" about berserkers are different! Therefore, different people find them in them! For example, there are stories about berserkers and stories where warriors knew how to enter a “combat trance” without any “intoxicating swill” (that is, without drugs)! And there were berserkers who (again, according to the stories ...) to a certain extent could control their condition ... i.e. they were not dangerous for "their" and did not "rush to the trees" ..... hi
          1. Mikhail3
            Mikhail3 31 March 2018 10: 23
            +1
            In a military trance, aka “trench madness”, the person is coldly calm, extremely rational, the fight doesn’t even look like a fight at first glance, it’s just that the person is walking forward or even standing with a bow, but lies with a rifle. And enemies fall around him. The only thing is a smile on the face. But such a weak ... No cries, crazy jumps and brandishing weapons from the word at all. Trance establishes a direct connection between the body and the goal, the person goes "past the time", what's the craziness?
            I deeply despise the mean and cowardly thieves - the Vikings, Vikings and other cowards who buried themselves in rotten fiords and made their raids from there on peaceful fishermen and plowmen. The fact that this scum got the mind to throw money to singers who created legends about “brave Scandinavian knights” does not make this muck fighters. But they had berserkers. Shame and shame for any army - people who can’t go into battle without turning up before losing their minds. Almost as cowardly and shameful as a kamikaze ...
            1. Nikolaevich I
              Nikolaevich I 31 March 2018 13: 07
              +2
              Quote: Mikhail3
              Trance establishes a direct connection between the body and the goal

              Quote: Mikhail3
              toss money to singers who have created legends about "brave Scandinavian knights"

              I liked your answer .... you have your own opinion. Of course, it is far from unambiguous: the information about the Vikings is diverse; and among historians, there are different, often different, opinions (versions). One could argue, bring examples and historical evidence .... but it will take a lot of time, and usually it is not enough. Maybe later you will have the opportunity to return to this topic ....
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 27 March 2018 18: 07
      +1
      Quote: oleole97
      But for some reason, in melee and in WWI and WWII, our won

      Not in melee, but in bayonets - these are two big differences
      1. rasteer
        rasteer 27 March 2018 20: 57
        +1
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Not in melee, but in bayonets - these are two big differences

        The fact of the matter is that melee, purely bayonet attacks in the WWII and WWII ceased to be relevant because during WWII the trenches were not located, remember the weapons of the German assault groups (pistols, grenades and a shovel or club) the most effective weapon in cramped conditions. During WWII, the spread of an automatic relatively compact weapon changed the alignment somewhat, batons disappeared and the gun became not so relevant. But in close combat, especially in cramped conditions, the bayonet was not a panacea. And in the current situation, it’s more likely an anachronism.
        1. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 28 March 2018 03: 54
          +1
          Quote: rasteer
          recall the weapons of the German assault groups (pistol, grenades and a shovel or baton) the most effective weapon in cramped conditions. In in

          Assault groups and the rejection of “long” bayonet rifles is the “new” 1MV! We studied from scratch! No one had the idea of ​​nunchucks or Dao swords from the "past" ...
          1. rasteer
            rasteer 28 March 2018 05: 50
            0
            Quote: Nikolaevich I
            Assault groups and the rejection of “long” bayonet rifles is the “new” 1MV! We studied from scratch! No one had the idea of ​​nunchucks or Dao swords from the "past" ...
            Yes, but at the same time, the skill of owning short weapons with a baton, ax, knife, and brush was finally widespread among the people. and fights rarely did without it, which is full of ethnographic and archival material. But the bayonet was taught from scratch.
            1. Nikolaevich I
              Nikolaevich I 28 March 2018 08: 35
              +1
              Quote: rasteer
              but at the same time, the skill of owning short arms with a baton, an ax, a knife, a brush was finally widespread among the people. and fights rarely do without it,

              1. But when leaving with a club against the “opponent”, no one said: Right now I’ll hit you with the reception of the “scribbler” !!! (or, how are they?) wink

              2. Not in any "folk environment" the use of "improvised objects" was encouraged!
              Somehow one French musketeer complained to his “kents” .... Like, he made a tour trip to London. And there some English impudent looked askance at me and said something about my mother! I grabbed the sword, but English passers-by took the sword from me and forced me to box in English! Like, they so accepted! ...... crying
              1. rasteer
                rasteer 28 March 2018 20: 18
                +1
                1. Of course not stated laughing First, we are not in Hollywood, "more is less words." The second of all these names is an eructation of the east ... but without it it’s no longer pleasant request Well, a modern person does not perceive if he is simply shown a couple of times silently, he needs a name, and it is also desirable to repeat it many, many times. The summary of all these self-names is adaptation by current reality.
                2. I agree. But in Russian it was encouraged. It was about this that I wrote "that there is a sea of ​​ethno and archival (in the sense of the Ministry of Internal Affairs) materials." Stories about the fact that in Russia they fought well intelligently (like honestly, like a duel) came up with romance. Russian fight and the rules of the concept are very distant. The rules seemed to be there, but no one bothered to break them, it was a matter of personal desire only. And the skills after the break.
                1. Nikolaevich I
                  Nikolaevich I 29 March 2018 01: 16
                  +1
                  Well .... everyone can have their own opinion. I will not dissuade you ... maybe you are right. hi
        2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 28 March 2018 13: 17
          0
          Quote: rasteer
          The fact of the matter is that melee, purely bayonet attacks in the WWII and WWII ceased to be relevant because during WWII the trenches did not have,

          And what did they not have? He ran to the trench - if from above, jumping into the trench - if along. In addition, quite often our counterattacks took place in WWII, when the Germans ran up close to the trenches.
          Quote: rasteer
          recall the weapons of the German assault groups (pistol, grenades and a shovel or baton) the most effective weapon in cramped conditions.

          Everything can be, only you can’t enlist all the fighters in the assault group, the bulk of the fighters fought with rifles
          Quote: rasteer
          But in close combat, especially in cramped conditions, the bayonet was not a panacea.

          was not. But the weapon is good
          Quote: rasteer
          And in the current situation, it’s more likely an anachronism.

          British marines killed and wounded in 1982 on the Falklands with bayonets would hardly agree with you
          1. rasteer
            rasteer 28 March 2018 20: 54
            0
            And what did they not have?
            In theory, yes it is possible with a bayonet. but in practice such a battle was not taught. They dug thoroughly like gnomes in the WWII, and therefore "get ... decide for yourself" not everyone could get to the enemy’s trench, and it could only hit with a bayonet in a jump to the bottom. Well, and here, even if you got it, it’s stuck for a split second, but this is enough to stay here.
            often our counterattacks
            And who argues. this is a tactic. and tactics are the basis of any battle, you can strategically think of all the steps for ten years ahead, but if the tactics are weak or no assistants, then the khan.
            the bulk of the soldiers fought with rifles
            I agree so no one says that any person is a "commandos" by birth. I'm just talking about that. that during the WWII, the armament of all the major participating countries changed dramatically and not just artificially, but quite centrally the same batons were made.
            British marines killed and wounded in 1982 on the Falklands with bayonets would hardly agree with you
            260 Britons against 650 Argentines will be cynical, and this taking into account the crippled British fleet. Somehow weak request
    3. Mihail28
      Mihail28 30 March 2018 00: 24
      0
      For some reason, I recalled eyewitness accounts of the crazy German machine gunners going crazy.
  14. sib.ataman
    sib.ataman 27 March 2018 13: 56
    +4
    Applied martial arts are fundamentally different from sports! Sport is entertainment. Applied - fast and concrete result. For real combat, sports fit just like a saddle to a cow. It is enough to put on a helmet, bronik, unloading, a little b.k. - and offer to demonstrate the skills of Thai boxing, with elements of throwing technology, so that any supporter of martial arts will immediately understand their poor adaptability to real life. Especially after jogging through an intersection, crawling on a belly, landing and disembarking on armor, well, for a complete set, jump in a snowdrift, or do mavash on ice. I am not against sports. For the education of men, it is quite enough. To educate a warrior, he can do a disservice in reassessing his capabilities. Applied martial arts take into account possible difficulties, allow eliminating the enemy with a minimum of physical costs. Therefore, in peaceful life to use martial arts in the form of sports, it is early to learn how to practice making yourself or a partner hara-kiri or ce.
  15. av58
    av58 27 March 2018 14: 44
    +2
    The best kind of martial arts, I think, is the one that best suits a particular fighter. Roughly speaking, you need to build your own hand-to-hand combat.
    1. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 27 March 2018 16: 00
      +1
      Quote: av58
      The best kind of martial arts, I think, is the one that best suits a particular fighter. Roughly speaking, you need to build your own hand-to-hand combat.

      Great! good You found the words that I was looking for, but they didn’t “turn up” on time! From that in the previous comment "clumsiness", making it not very clear ... recourse
  16. would
    would 27 March 2018 15: 00
    +5
    In order to revive something, it is necessary that it be. Have you ever seen “Russian hand-to-hand combat” at least in some sources of the tsarist era? Or the name of some "native Russian" martial arts that is now taught in all kinds of schools? Personally, I do not. And all because there was no "Russian hand-to-hand combat" then, there simply wasn’t. There were certain ethnic martial arts, at the beginning of the twentieth century there was self-defense, there was sambo. But history does not know any “original Russian styles”. Did our ancestors fight? Of course! Not for nothing there is a "wall to wall", but the story is silent about what would be attached to it some kind of "Cossack hand-to-hand combat". There is an opinion that such a difference with the same Japan lies in the fact that we did not have swords taken away and the Cossack did not make any sense to learn to beat with his hands if there is a native sword or saber. But in Japan, only samurai could have swords and the local population had to get out.

    And all these present-born from the late 90s prolific "native Russian styles" is nothing more than a way to raise the dough. In the best case, work items from other martial arts are taken, or the whole system is borrowed completely. Borrowed tricks are also renamed. After that they hang noodles about the “ethnocode” on all of this, add external attributes such as braids of dads and others like them and get the output “Russian hand-to-hand combat”. The output is, for example, karate in braces, or ARB in braces. Generally something applicable. And most importantly, new and unusual, everyone has already got used to karate and sambo, it’s not interesting anymore! But it’s worth renaming it a “Cossack hand-to-hand fight”, hanging paraphernalia and trampling the people right away because it is something new and with abundant cheers-patriotism. In short, the juice from the apple is called "apple fresh" and begin to smartly sell at a different price lol

    But alas, it is often not so. And even if they take something that is applicable, they invent “traditional elements” which, naturally, are in no way applicable. A striking example of this is the reflection of a saber foot in a "combat hopak". Saber foot, Karl!

    So another representative of the next “fighting hopak” got out (Why? He also takes dancing as a basis), but from our side, he begins to PR his own earnings by hanging readers with a bunch of absolutely senseless noodles. And especially he wants to attract no one and does not require that the state give money for the imaginary "ethnicity" of the remake, God forgive me, for martial arts.

    In the modern world, the situation is such that in terms of hand-to-hand combat, they can’t invent anything new for decades. The man remained the same, with the same muscles, the same joints, bones, new strokes did not appear because the former use the perfectly studied human anatomy as efficiently as possible. So even sambo and self-sampling are nothing more than a compilation of already known techniques, the same can be said about kyokushinkai and generally about many, many, many systems. As a result, in modern times all these systems have bred an incredible amount and if you start asking their creators “What is the fundamental difference between your system and system x?”, You will not hear a clear answer.
    1. John22
      John22 31 March 2018 13: 34
      +2
      I agree completely. At one time, quite a long time, journalist and writer V. Gilyarovsky explored the issue of the Russian style of fighting and hand-to-hand combat. Having traveled across the expanses of Russia and specially engaging in clashes with various strata of the population, he noted that this is not traced. It was the second half of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century.
      Specification for the author - Oshchepkov came to Japan in 1907 at the age of 14. How could he already be a fighter? Studying in the Orthodox seminary on about. Hokaido also studied judo there. In 1917 he received the 2nd dan.
  17. andrewkor
    andrewkor 27 March 2018 19: 43
    +2
    As soon as Uzbekistan received Mustakillik (Independence), the ancient Turon martial art immediately arose - a mishmash of all that was. The main difference in clothes: a jacket belted with a scarf, white capri pants, a pirate-like scarf tied to the head!
  18. shinobi
    shinobi 28 March 2018 02: 00
    0
    With Russian styles, parsley is the same as with most old systems of hand-to-hand combat. There are no tradition carriers. Absolutely. Extinct at the end of the 19th, beginning of the 20th century. What is now served as the “Russian styles” of re-fighting of SAMBO in the mid-70s.
    1. sib.ataman
      sib.ataman 28 March 2018 09: 30
      0
      I still have at home a manual on the use of hand-to-hand combat techniques for KGB, Ministry of Internal Affairs and special staff. units. With the stamp "Secret", the end of the 60th edition. If I didn’t have it, then I could be blamed, donated! There is nothing unusual in it. A set of simple tricks like sambo, in combination with “relaxing” kicks on pain points. Kicks on points (like, groin-shin-lift of the foot, plexus), while in the USSR in martial arts kicks were completely absent. They appeared legally, kicks, after the "pirates of the twentieth century", and "in the zone of special attention."
      If, in general, the techniques from the collection were not impressive, but worked out to a certain degree of automatism, they gave good self-confidence with some extreme. I think that the collection was compiled on the basis of the previous ones for the employees of the NKVD, GPU, SmerSh. And they took, as far as I know from the writer Sergeyev (Princes' Island), from those plastuns who managed to survive from "tearing away", and then found themselves on the Finnish, and then WWII front. They were calculated simply: after several attacks with a melee, only a few survived. The Chekists took note of them and watched, if he survived several more changes in the composition, then he was taken into development, incited to cooperation. Those who refused usually died after a couple of fights. I heard the same type of story from Prince. Golitsin, now deceased, one of the first honorary presidents of the Rus.ukopash federation. battlefield. He showed oooh very interesting things at his seminars, but didn’t explain them in detail, and didn’t give them for recording, and he didn’t really like video filming. What he showed - I generally did not see anywhere, but it worked! By the way, Ryabko has something similar. Unfortunately, I saw Golitsin quite a bit - he lived in St. Petersburg, and I in Siberia.
  19. Oleko
    Oleko 30 March 2018 07: 21
    0
    Quote: michell

    michell (Michael)

    Yesterday, 15: 06




    Quote: Razvedka_Boem Competitions in application systems can hardly be organized, they are sharpened to disable an enemy as quickly as possible. If formulated more accurately and without a hitch, the goal of applied (combat) martial arts is to KILL the enemy. That is why the “Kadochnikov system” (which is just the traditional Russian hand-to-hand combat) was not widely used - there are no rules, as well as a sports version of the fight.

    There are several levels. There are for the protection of women, receptions for children ... There are for special forces. Convoying, for example .... using keys. A system is established using levers of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd kind. You can find it here: Hand-to-hand combat according to the Kadochnikov System for pilots.
  20. kriwo.alek
    kriwo.alek 31 March 2018 11: 33
    0
    We have a great SAMBO school. Sambo has incorporated all the best martial arts techniques of the World. In addition to combat sambo, there is also sports sambo. The difference is that in sports sambo there are no techniques for the physical destruction of the enemy. In combat, on the contrary. Naturally included and RUSSIAN FIGHT. Here you need to look. Maybe not all the techniques of the Russian battle worthy of appropriate attention are included in sambo? So you need to include and educate our youth in a more advanced program.
    1. bunta
      bunta 31 March 2018 20: 15
      0
      There are no methods of Russian battle, as well as Japanese or German. Sambo is self-sufficient and closest to combat training than any other other martial arts. At what not at the expense of any receptions or blows. And due to the training system.
  21. kriwo.alek
    kriwo.alek 31 March 2018 11: 44
    0
    Quote: sib.ataman
    I still have at home a manual on the use of hand-to-hand combat techniques for KGB, Ministry of Internal Affairs and special staff. units. With the stamp "Secret", the end of the 60th edition. If I didn’t have it, then I could be blamed, donated! There is nothing unusual in it. A set of simple tricks like sambo, in combination with “relaxing” kicks on pain points. Kicks on points (like, groin-shin-lift of the foot, plexus), while in the USSR in martial arts kicks were completely absent. They appeared legally, kicks, after the "pirates of the twentieth century", and "in the zone of special attention."
    If, in general, the techniques from the collection were not impressive, but worked out to a certain degree of automatism, they gave good self-confidence with some extreme. I think that the collection was compiled on the basis of the previous ones for the employees of the NKVD, GPU, SmerSh. And they took, as far as I know from the writer Sergeyev (Princes' Island), from those plastuns who managed to survive from "tearing away", and then found themselves on the Finnish, and then WWII front. They were calculated simply: after several attacks with a melee, only a few survived. The Chekists took note of them and watched, if he survived several more changes in the composition, then he was taken into development, incited to cooperation. Those who refused usually died after a couple of fights. I heard the same type of story from Prince. Golitsin, now deceased, one of the first honorary presidents of the Rus.ukopash federation. battlefield. He showed oooh very interesting things at his seminars, but didn’t explain them in detail, and didn’t give them for recording, and he didn’t really like video filming. What he showed - I generally did not see anywhere, but it worked! By the way, Ryabko has something similar. Unfortunately, I saw Golitsin quite a bit - he lived in St. Petersburg, and I in Siberia.

    I also saw a small classified sambo at the same time, but then sambo in our country as a sport was forbidden. Only special units could use it. For the application of sambo techniques, let's say in a simple yard fight, they gave a rather feeble period. Of course, I have not seen a complete sambo book. In fact, this is a whole science. Of course, a person is not able to master all the techniques, but if he knows in sufficient quantity and worked out to be automatic, he becomes practically unattainable. Of course, such people can be counted on the fingers.
    1. bunta
      bunta 31 March 2018 20: 19
      0
      You do not confuse with karate?