Military Review

National features trade multifunction fighter

54
The message about the “baptism of fire” F-35 Lightning II (in the Israeli version “Adir” (mighty)) of the air force of the Jewish state inspired the expert and journalistic community. Everyone was waiting for the details of this, probably, the first combat use, this most energetic and accompanied by many scandals of the fifth generation aircraft.



Recall that Israel is the very first of the American allies who have received this novelty, and, accordingly, has gained the greatest experience (if not counting the United States) of operating these machines.

However, no details followed. Where and when the plane was used, what task was it performing — all of it was covered in darkness. The maximum amount of information that journalists managed to get from representatives of the IDF is the statement that “Adir” showed itself from the best side.

All this is happening in accordance with the “non-response policy” declared by the commander of the Air Force, Major General Amikam Norkin, which is that the press service and the department officials do not comment, deny and do not confirm various reports about this aircraft.

Such an approach looks rather strange for a democratic country, for the status of which Israel claims. This is not about disclosing secret information, but citizens should know what their money is spent on. Moreover, the information about F-35 is closed not only for ordinary Israelis, but also for the majority of parliamentarians.

This creates a lot of questions and suspicions. In particular, the media spread rumors about repeated combat use of the aircraft.

In particular, it is reported that "Adira" was repeatedly used for terrorist attacks on Syria. And in October last year, one F-35 was in the course of a pirate raid, allegedly damaged by a missile of the Syrian anti-aircraft installation C-200.

Ignoring all these rumors by the military leads the Israeli public to the idea that the “Adir” is not as good as it has been reported, and that it is not the overwhelming possibilities beyond the plane that hide from it, but the numerous flaws of the crude construction. And such a desire for confidentiality makes it necessary to assume in all this a corruption component.

These suspicions became even more aggravated against the background of the corruption scandal unleashed in Germany. Recently it became known that the commander of the Luftwaffe, Lieutenant General Karl Mülner would be fired for lobbying Germany for purchasing American F-35 fighter jets.

Of course, such an approach to the question and such an organizational decision hint, as it were, at Mülner's obvious dishonesty.

As is well known, lobbying is by no means disinterested. And she, of course, is not compatible with the post of Air Force Commander. If you call a spade a spade, in this case the word “lobbyism” is a euphemism for the terms “corruption” and “bribe”.
But, apparently, this question is sought to be solved behind the scenes, minimizing its publicity. Therefore, no criminal prosecution has been initiated against the general - he was simply dismissed from the case, and in May he will be retired early.

Perhaps this is done so delicately so as not to worsen relations with the United States.

German Minister of War Ursula von der Lyayen rejected Mülner’s plans to replace the old Panavia Tornado fighters with the F-35, and decided to re-equip the Luftwaffe with Eurofighter Typhoon fighters. The unnamed sources in the Bundeswehr indicate that this choice is dictated not only by technical claims against the American fighter, but also by considerations of a geopolitical order.

Most likely, I am referring to the position of the happy members of the Bundestag, according to which a complete transition to F-35 will weaken the European defense industry and make Germany dependent on the United States.

And these considerations are well founded. The scandal with the commander-in-chief of the Luftwaffe, and that which did not become “the Mülner case,” clearly shows what methods the United States promotes the sale of its weapons to the allies.

Even earlier, the Americans managed to impose financial participation in the JSF program (on the development of F-35) to such NATO allies as the United Kingdom, Italy, Denmark, Holland, Canada and Turkey, relying on their “lobbyists” in these countries.

To this we can add that Washington has put maximum efforts, using political and economic pressure, as well as a banal bribe in order to eliminate potential competition in the development and production of the 5 aircraft.

The result is obvious: the Dassault nEUROn concern, which announced the beginning of work on the creation of a new-generation machine, currently only the UAV, created using stealth technologies, can boast.

The Japanese are a little better off, as if they are also involved in the creation of the newest class fighter.
But the work on the aircraft ATD-X Shinshin, have progressed not much further than creating a prototype glider. And experts suggest that the aircraft will not go beyond the technology demonstrator.

However, the Japanese designers are trying to save their work by inviting the Americans to continue working together. This circumstance is also an indirect indication of what prevents American allies from working on the creation of their own machines 5-th and 6-th generations.

The efforts of the Americans created such a situation that there is practically no alternative to F-35 for their allies. After all, they will not buy from the Chinese J-20, or from Russia Su-57?

The same Eurofighter Typhoon, no matter how good a plane is, is still a generation 4 machine, and the “ceiling” of its upgrades is 4 ++.

However, we can assume that F-35, in the end, will bring, eliminating all the flaws - largely due to the allies.

Instead of developing their own military-industrial complex, and earning money by selling its products, they are forced to buy “raw” equipment from the Americans and pay for its subsequent modernization.
Author:
54 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. Cxnumx
    Cxnumx 21 March 2018 06: 07
    +4
    However, we can assume that F-35, in the end, will bring, eliminating all the flaws - largely due to the allies.
    actually: what were they counting on when dealing with the United States?)
    1. Vard
      Vard 21 March 2018 06: 18
      +3
      It looks like their corruption will give our one hundred points ahead .. If they already steal ... Then billions ...
      1. Cxnumx
        Cxnumx 21 March 2018 06: 20
        +2
        Quote: Vard
        It looks like their corruption will give our one hundred points ahead .. If they already steal ... Then billions ...

        and billions of "not rubles." therefore, when we are broadcast that we are drowning in corruption, and in the West everything is fine - ridiculously ridiculous, our volumes never dreamed of)
        1. Victor_B
          Victor_B 21 March 2018 07: 04
          0
          It looks like their corruption will give our one hundred points ahead .. If they already steal ... Then billions ...

          They got airplanes (in the voice of the Owl) for free! That is for nothing!
          1. NEXUS
            NEXUS 21 March 2018 12: 54
            +6
            Quote: Victor_B
            They got airplanes (in the voice of the Owl) for free! That is for nothing!

            And those maintenance on the entire life cycle of this device is also free? M.
            And the question is, if sclerosis does not fail me, about a billion dollars for each plane from the pocket of the Israelis.
        2. spech
          spech 21 March 2018 07: 27
          +2
          Quote: K0
          Quote: Vard
          It looks like their corruption will give our one hundred points ahead .. If they already steal ... Then billions ...

          and billions of "not rubles." therefore, when we are broadcast that we are drowning in corruption, and in the West everything is fine - ridiculously ridiculous, our volumes never dreamed of)

          So there lobbyism, and we have corruption laughing
      2. Proxima
        Proxima 21 March 2018 20: 49
        0
        Quote: Vard
        It looks like their corruption will give our one hundred points ahead .. If they already steal ... Then billions ...

        The fact that this raw copy is being promoted through the lobby is understandable. Another thing is also clear that in terms of the price - quality parameter this device will be in a clear loss. And here is his true combat capabilities - MYSTERY FOR FAMILY PRESSES. But what still appears in the open press into the light of God - SIMPLY GOALS! belay
        This is what the Norwegian pilot told, who tested the latest American F-35 fighter in a training battle and spoke about its shortcomings
        Summarizing his report (a fragment of which will be given below), the Norwegian pilot called the F-35 a plane - “dead man” (“dead meat” - literally “corpse”), extremely vulnerable in close combat.

        In a document labeled “only for official use,” the pilot wrote that in situations of close air combat, the F-35 suffers a critical lack of maneuverability: it cannot turn and climb fast enough to dodge enemy fire.

        The training flight, in which the author of the report took part, imitated a fight at an altitude of 3 to 9 km of the F-35 with a fourth-generation fighter - in its role in the exercises was the F-16, close in characteristics to the Russian MiG-29.

        During the exercises, the F-16 was weighted with additional outboard fuel tanks, but even this “handicap” did not help the insufficiently maneuverable F-35. As the author of the report emphasized, Lightning II has an insufficient rate of pitch change ...
        Hm! For such crazy money it would be possible to decoy something more decently fellow
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 24 March 2018 04: 43
          +1
          Quote: Proxima
          extremely vulnerable in close combat.

          Apparently people for whom plumming a cannon fight penguin is a sensation will never end in RuNet.
      3. Bossota
        Bossota 22 March 2018 00: 29
        0
        Democrats have no corruption. And lobbying is just a hobby
    2. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 21 March 2018 07: 15
      +3
      Why on earth would an article on "geopolitics" again be placed in the "Armaments" section instead of "analytics"? Is it enough to mention a couple of times the F-35?

      By the way, for reference. If the current generation of European "liberals" in Germany is recovering to the point that they will finally begin to be hung, then Ms. von der Leyen will be the first on the list immediately after Merkel. Previously, even Steinmeier.
  2. tchoni
    tchoni 21 March 2018 06: 36
    +3
    Haspada! But, if the F-35 is such a shise, how do they write about it, what prevents it from knocking one down for a test? Or touch them with whatever Su-35, just like the f-22 did with the Su-25 and their fighter cover? Why these unproven cries: do not buy f-35 - he is like that!
    1. jonht
      jonht 21 March 2018 07: 09
      +1
      Quote: tchoni
      as did the f-22 with the su-25 and their fighter cover

      It’s interesting to me, and how did the fu-22 troll cover fighter? If, in fact, after its appearance, the fu-22 safely fell out of the zone .... And, perhaps, hesitated to show its true essence ....
      Or maybe there they initially set up the Su-25, in order to get data about the fu-22 .... You can set up many different hypotheses, we’ll only find out the truth in 50 years ....
    2. Filxnumx
      Filxnumx 21 March 2018 07: 15
      +2
      But, if the F-35 is such a shise, how do they write about it, what prevents it from knocking one down for a test?
      The same thing that prevented the Israelis from shooting down the Su-57. Careful planning and preparation for flights, the global classification of information about flights, flights outside the enemy’s air defense, and an attack from controlled territory. And the lack of Russian air defense calculations at the facilities that were attacked. wink
      1. MadCat
        MadCat 23 March 2018 10: 48
        0
        Quote: Fil743
        The same thing that prevented the Israelis from shooting down the Su-57. Careful planning and preparation for flights, the global classification of information about flights, flights outside the enemy’s air defense, and an attack from controlled territory. And the lack of Russian air defense calculations at the facilities that were attacked.

        What the hell to Israel these new Russian toys? Russia is wetting the barmalei, which does not contradict the interests of Israel, and it does not interfere with wetting the barmalei. request
  3. Victor_B
    Victor_B 21 March 2018 07: 02
    +5
    Well, they’ll run right now!
    Immediately bring the arguments:
    1. The country is small. Everyone knows everything about everyone.
    2. There were no injuries (combat). (See point 1)
    3. We bombed and will bomb whenever we want. (Professor)
    4. (See paragraph 1) Because we have the right!
  4. Alex-a832
    Alex-a832 21 March 2018 07: 09
    +5
    In my opinion, the alignment is obvious. Israel serves as the PR man for this super-duper-powerful-now-invincible F-35. Perhaps he possesses super qualities, but the ratio of its cost and the cost of its maintenance with the real need for its combat use and the theoretical effect of it puts him in the category of a dead end branch. The same F-15, F-16 are work horses, which are constantly involved in combat use and almost always against a weaker enemy. Using F35 for the same purpose is the same as drowning the stove with money, not to mention the risk - and then they will get knocked down ... It will be super anti-advertising in general. And super advertising to the tool that will bring down. Who will buy this budget fighter then?
    It seems that in the F-35 there is only one sense: its inclusion in the strategy of attacking a strong opponent (Russia or China). To do this, the US allies, through lobbying services, pump F-35 to the maximum and at the expense of the allies themselves, and during the hour of the attack on Russia or China, all these F35 will have to be transferred to US control. Here the United States benefits, the producers of the 35th, lobbyists. And the allies are sub-mattresses, as usual, an American lollipop ... lol
    1. spech
      spech 21 March 2018 07: 32
      0
      Israel acts as PR for this super-duper-powerful-now-invincible F-35

      Moreover, for free.
      PS I foresee allegations of lies tongue
    2. parma
      parma 21 March 2018 08: 31
      +2
      Here is a strange logic among non-lovers of everything imported .... How F-35 flies is an advertisement for piece G that no one will buy, everything is stupid, expensive, before the planes were better and in general we’ll leave all caps (and meanwhile, it’s not a shame fly like hot cakes) ..... How ours fly (and by the way they don’t always fly well, judging by the conclusion of the Su-34 from Syria) -so this is combat experience, debugging and flying around technology, and generally has no problems in the world!
    3. Snakebyte
      Snakebyte 21 March 2018 08: 43
      +1
      Quote: Alex-a832
      Perhaps he possesses super qualities, but the ratio of its cost and the cost of its maintenance with the real need for its combat use and the theoretical effect of it puts him in the category of a dead end branch.

      The cost of the aircraft and its maintenance at the level of F-16. So what about the money in the oven - by.
      At one time, exactly the same thing was said about the F-15. That it is several times more expensive than the Phantom, and even if it is knocked down ... And nothing, it took root.
    4. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 21 March 2018 17: 55
      +4
      "Israel is the PR man of this super-duper-powerful-now-invincible F-35." ///

      F-35 in Israel is replacing the F-16. F-16 will not be soon.
      F-35 will become the same "workhorse", which is the F-16.
      Therefore, protect it does not work. He will participate in all
      missions, no matter what the enemy is. It may be shot down, will be
      and accidents are the normal combat fate of a fighter-bomber.
  5. Snakebyte
    Snakebyte 21 March 2018 08: 39
    +1
    Ignoring all these rumors by the military leads the Israeli public to the idea that the “Adir” is not as good as it has been reported, and that it is not the overwhelming possibilities beyond the plane that hide from it, but the numerous flaws of the crude construction. And such a desire for confidentiality makes it necessary to assume in all this a corruption component.

    If senior officials comment on all the rumors and gossip, they will have no time left for the main activity.
    However, the Japanese designers are trying to save their work by inviting the Americans to continue working together. This circumstance is also an indirect indication of what prevents American allies from working on the creation of their own machines 5-th and 6-th generations.

    This is a direct indication that far from every country is capable of pulling the development of a 5th generation fighter alone.
    The efforts of the Americans created such a situation that there is practically no alternative to F-35 for their allies. After all, they will not buy from the Chinese J-20, or from Russia Su-57?

    And who prevented the "allies" from developing their own? The Germans and the French, they realized, when the train had already left.
    However, we can assume that F-35, in the end, will bring, eliminating all the flaws - largely due to the allies.

    Before generating such statements, it’s worth looking at the figures for financing the program, since it is quite open. The participation of all the Allied countries, except for Great Britain (which needed a vertical and was engaged in the development of a special engine) is almost symbolic.
    Instead of developing their own military-industrial complex, and earning money by selling its products, they are forced to buy “raw” equipment from the Americans and pay for its subsequent modernization.

    Yes, countries that have not even mastered their own 4th generation (and some of the 3rd and 2nd generation) will sharply develop their defense industry and create the 5th.
    Moreover, the F-35 program, here's the surprise, allows you to "earn it by selling money" - already in three countries, in addition to the USA, the production of components and assembly has been launched.

    Who will now need a variety of Su-XX? Is any Uganda inexpensive and for its own credit.
  6. Old26
    Old26 21 March 2018 09: 56
    0
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Why on earth would an article on "geopolitics" again be placed in the "Armaments" section instead of "analytics"? Is it enough to mention a couple of times the F-35?

    By the way, for reference. If the current generation of European "liberals" in Germany is recovering to the point that they will finally begin to be hung, then Ms. von der Leyen will be the first on the list immediately after Merkel. Previously, even Steinmeier.

    In fact, the article is very, very controversial in terms of voiced thoughts.
    For example
    All this is happening in accordance with the “non-response policy” declared by the commander of the Air Force, Major General Amikam Norkin, which is that the press service and the department officials do not comment, deny and do not confirm various reports about this aircraft.

    Such an approach looks rather strange for a democratic country, for the status of which Israel claims. This is not about disclosing secret information, but citizens should know what their money is spent on. Moreover, the information about F-35 is closed not only for ordinary Israelis, but also for the majority of parliamentarians.

    Why is the decision of the leadership of the Air Force and the Armed Forces in general not to give any information and not to confirm (or deny) some information is given as an example of "Undemocratic". And what, it would be better for them to shout at every corner, how and where did they use these machines to give a trump card to their opponents and find means of counteraction?

    It is foolish to think that lobbying for the purchase of one car is punishable, and when the Minister of Defense lobbies the purchase of another, it’s in the order of things ..
    And in general, some kind of headline. as if from another article. By reading it, you count on reading why the same Indians abandoned our 5th generation car in favor of others. The reason - it seems corny more expensive. But no. A couple of maxims in relation to Israel and Germany - and that’s all. Becoming is an SINGLE MINUS, although there is no way to set it. It's a pity. At least there was some criterion of "interestingness" of an article
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 21 March 2018 13: 52
      +1
      Quote: Old26
      A couple of maxims in relation to Israel and Germany - and that’s all.

      Actually, that was the question. The author wants to talk about the fact that smallish people rule Germany and Israel. Why he comes to this topic is secondary to him. Though from penguins, at least, I don’t know, from bicycle paths.

      As for Israel, there is nothing to comment on. With Germany, the situation, as far as I know, is unequivocal and unequivocally monstrous. Below in the comments it is briefly described.

      Germany, as a member of NATO, must be able to use the B61. Now this option is implemented only in Panavia, the youngest of which flew to bomb Milosevic yet. When they fall apart - around the year of the 25th - there will be no strike aircraft left in the backlash.

      Accordingly, options.
      1. Buy penguins. With the advent of penguins in Germany, all talk about the new Eurofighter stops because of their apparent absurdity.
      2. Make a new Eurofighter by the 25th year. This is impossible and absolutely everyone understands this.
      3. Make a new strike aircraft based on anything. This is entirely possible, but not much discussed.
      4. Do not buy anything, leave NATO, dissolve the army. The most reasonable option. The current Bundeswehr is obviously not able to fight even with the current Syrian-Iranian-Russian team, for example. It’s not necessary to say that with a chancellor like Merkel, and especially a minister like Läyen, the situation will change. Obviously, no decision will be made, too sharp a decision.
      5. Do nothing, stay in NATO, ignore NATO requirements. Draw the curtains, swing the car, announce the station, pretend that we are going. Ms. von der Leyen, meanwhile, will be able to deal with issues in which she is competent - to decide whether a kiss is sexual harassment, etc. It will almost certainly be so. The Bundeswehr will continue to slide down to the level of the Armed Forces.
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 21 March 2018 17: 50
        +1
        "The current Bundeswehr is obviously not able to fight even with the current
        Syrian-Iranian-Russian team, "///

        Why do you have such radical conclusions? belay Germans participate in NATO missions,
        regularly in joint maneuvers with the United States. Americans did not complain about them ("not capable
        fight "). Quite technically literate and trained guys.
        The quantity, of course, is small. But the times are now peaceful.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 21 March 2018 20: 21
          0
          Quote: voyaka uh
          Germans participate in NATO missions,
          regularly in joint maneuvers with the USA

          So the Estonians seem to have traveled a couple of times.

          Quote: voyaka uh
          The quantity, of course, is small. But the times are now peaceful.

          What kind of independent operation can these guys carry out?

          It’s strange to speak about dismantling specifically in Syria - Germans have near-zero expeditionary capabilities. But from places where they can get? Transnistria? Donbass (with an open Ventorg)? Would you start betting on the Bundeswehr if without the Americans?

          And I’ll remind you that the country is 10 times larger than Israel and the population and the economy. No, I fully understand that the state, which is a non-EU member only borders Austria and Switzerland, may not need an army. Well, why bother yourself?
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 21 March 2018 20: 45
            0
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            non-EU members border only Austria and Switzerland,

            To blame. Austria is a member of the EU, of course.
          2. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 21 March 2018 23: 26
            0
            "What an independent operation these guys are able to conduct" ////

            They are an important link in the structure of NATO. And they do not need to carry out independent operations according to the doctrine of NATO. And thank God! And then again they will rush from Lamansha to the Volga - then clear off later ... stop And the quality of training of soldiers and specialists is traditionally good.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 21 March 2018 23: 47
              +1
              Quote: voyaka uh
              They are an important link in the structure of NATO.

              In more detail? Highly paid movers? Military police?

              Again. The militarists complain that the Germans spend little on the army. So 1,2% of German GDP is $ 50 billion. 17% of Israel’s GDP. That is three times more, in absolute terms, than is spent on AOI, even taking into account American money. About as much as Russia spends (I do not belong to the PPP witnesses), despite the fact that the Germans can spend money, it would seem, much more efficient.

              So what? And where?

              Quote: voyaka uh
              And then again they will fly from Lamansha to the Volga

              Hardly.
              If the army is NOT capable and NOT going to either defend its country or "project power", that is, "continue politics by other means" / "conduct imperialist aggression" - why is it?
              1. voyaka uh
                voyaka uh 22 March 2018 09: 59
                0
                "If the army is NOT capable and is not going to defend its country" ////

                Amazing conclusions ... Why did you decide so?
                They hold a trained peacetime contract army (170,000) train, fire. And, I suspect, they shoot more bullets at a fighter than in the Russian army.
                Their equipment is modern, the education of soldiers is high.
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 22 March 2018 11: 38
                  +2
                  Quote: voyaka uh
                  They hold a trained peacetime contract army (170,000) train, fire. And, I suspect, they shoot more bullets at a fighter than in the Russian army.

                  Again.
                  Not far from you, a local operation has just ended against, frankly, chantraps, without a serious roof. Olive branch. Will the Bundeswehr handle such an operation?

                  AOI costs 3 times less than the Bundeswehr. Britain and France for the same money contain an army + navy with an aircraft carrier + strategic nuclear forces.

                  So what is the Bundeswehr? Who needs it and why?

                  I have an opinion on this issue that I do not impose on anyone. If a country needs an army to protect the state itself from total destruction - the country is forced to build the armed forces as efficiently as Israel. If there is no particular threat, but there are colonial interests in one form or another, then the army is normal, like the French.
                  If the army doesn’t have anything at all, but there is a lot of money, the Bundeswehr is obtained. If not enough - then APU.
                  1. voyaka uh
                    voyaka uh 23 March 2018 01: 57
                    0
                    "Olive branch. Will the Bundeswehr handle such an operation?" ///

                    Totally calm. And faster than the Turks did.
                    The Germans sometimes wake up. And then the neighbors cry. It’s better not to wake up. Do not lull yourself with a "childishly good-natured" view of the modern Bundeswehr. As soon as losses begin, wounded ("smell of blood"), then all childhood will fly away from them. And you will see the same disciplined and trained Wehrmacht, which was hardly stopped in the Caucasus.
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 24 March 2018 05: 11
                      0
                      Quote: voyaka uh
                      The Germans sometimes wake up.

                      Sorry, but your claims against the Germans seem irrational to me. I understand that a difficult legacy and all that, but, to my taste, there are more pressing problems besides German revenge. Both in BV and in Europe.
                      Quote: voyaka uh
                      disciplined and trained Wehrmacht, which was hardly stopped in the Caucasus.

                      Operations of a similar scale by ground forces will not be carried out under any circumstances.
                      Quote: voyaka uh
                      Totally calm. And faster than the Turks did.

                      Are you sure about the topic?
                      The forces from the brigade to the division, + 20-30 thousand irregulars participated in the Olive branch. What is the maximum size of forces that the Bundeswehr allocated for a military operation in the Merkel era? When it was?
                      The Turkish army is five times as large as the German army, only twice as many shots. Ground forces are 6,5 times greater. Turkish Aviation per generation It surpasses the German one: the Germans do not have any of their AWACS aircraft, only general NATO aircraft. There are one and a half times more Turkish Falcons of 50+ series than German Typhoons, and the issue with the purchase of penguins has been resolved, unlike.
                      On a scale you understand. The Turkish Armed Forces may, if suddenly, become a serious opponent for the IDF. It is unlikely, of course, that they will throw Israel into the sea, but it will not be easy.
                      The present Bundeswehr, if he somehow trample into Palestine to free the Holy Sepulcher, will be crushed by the IDF. No options at all.
  7. Yarr
    Yarr 21 March 2018 10: 29
    0
    If the author of this article undertook to mention and analyze Israel, then he should know that the IDF command never talks about the details of military operations, it's just such an information policy.
    1. AlexMark
      AlexMark April 2 2018 17: 34
      +1
      The command does not disseminate information, and only the command owns information?
  8. Pete mitchell
    Pete mitchell 21 March 2018 11: 49
    +4
    Quote: Vard
    If they steal there ... Then billions ..

    What are you, what are you, as you can. In a "civilized democratic" society, they do not steal. They lobby there
    1. NN52
      NN52 21 March 2018 12: 49
      +8
      Hobo, hello!

      With Israel, everything is clear, on a strong hook, they will not fall off already on topic 35 ...
      And with the Germans it is not clear ... Or the article is muddy .. After all, they already wrote that Eurofighter is not suitable and can not carry the bobms, which are at the storage bases in Germany. And according to the conditions, the Luftwaffe should have this option ... So they started talking about 35 ...
      I think the Germans will squeeze on 35 .....
      1. Pete mitchell
        Pete mitchell 21 March 2018 13: 22
        +4
        Good morning hi
        Quote: NN52
        Germans will be squeezed by 35 .....

        They will finish it, although the Typhoon modernization resource is far from exhausted, and flying planes are not all even transh 3. Let's see
  9. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 21 March 2018 12: 03
    +3
    "It's not about divulging classified information, but citizens should know what their money is spent on" ////

    Citizens are satisfied. fellow
    I would be worried if Israel were left to cook in the 21st century with the 4th generation ...
  10. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 21 March 2018 12: 12
    +1
    The production of any new fighter will pay off,
    if not less than 100 aircraft are produced.
    And the second - if you are already behind the leader, then why start?
    Therefore, the Germans, Japanese and others slow down with the 5th
    generation: they are not sure that they will promote production
    and what, perhaps, an already obsolete aircraft will create.
    Therefore, they may need to "jump" immediately on an unmanned fighter -
    6th generation.
    1. KonoGon
      KonoGon 21 March 2018 20: 09
      0
      Quote: voyaka uh
      it is necessary to “jump” immediately to the unmanned fighter - the 6th generation.
      Neither technology nor application methods are yet there. And this is clearly understood from the Americans through the Russians to the Japanese. A few times, everything will change until the sixth. There is no point in starting. Well, the fifth one is now needed just right. And to all. And the more he fluttered here, the clearer the beautiful plane, and they would like that.
  11. sib.ataman
    sib.ataman 21 March 2018 12: 13
    0
    No need to compare corrupt officials - they are the same everywhere! Their greed depends on the amount of mastered funds. But the dictatorship of the Ammerz leaders is even to our advantage! Do not break into the lead in the arms race!
  12. Curious
    Curious 21 March 2018 13: 22
    +2
    Such seething intense around is unclear why. All about "they" yes "they". So outbid the corrupt European officials and instead of the American flying go ... sell your real fighter to everyone, and let the Americans moan how offended they are, sucking bamboo. Then you can put your middle finger. In the meantime, just watch. On the finger.
  13. chingachguc
    chingachguc 21 March 2018 14: 29
    +1
    there is only one criterion for the "success" of the aircraft - will the Jews continue to buy it?
  14. chingachguc
    chingachguc 21 March 2018 14: 36
    0
    Quote: Snakebyte
    Quote: Alex-a832
    Perhaps he possesses super qualities, but the ratio of its cost and the cost of its maintenance with the real need for its combat use and the theoretical effect of it puts him in the category of a dead end branch.

    The cost of the aircraft and its maintenance at the level of F-16. So what about the money in the oven - by.
    At one time, exactly the same thing was said about the F-15. That it is several times more expensive than the Phantom, and even if it is knocked down ... And nothing, it took root.

    ??
  15. cats
    cats 21 March 2018 15: 53
    +3
    It turns out that when the development of military aviation in the world is bent, that is, planes will only do
    striped and russian ..
    And the stripes will be worse .. good
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 21 March 2018 16: 46
      +1
      The Chinese have been forgotten. And they will come in 2nd place.
  16. shuravi
    shuravi 21 March 2018 19: 01
    +1
    No, well, all the same how great it worked for us in due time. So vparit the stillborn concept of the Yak-141.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 21 March 2018 23: 31
      0
      Yakovlev Bureau made a good advanced aircraft in due time. But without computer technology, allowing to automate transitions from vertical to horizontal flight and stabilize vertical flight, the aircraft had a high accident rate. And so they abandoned him.
      1. shuravi
        shuravi 22 March 2018 02: 04
        +2
        Quote: voyaka uh
        Yakovlev Bureau made a good advanced aircraft in due time. But without computer technology, allowing to automate transitions from vertical to horizontal flight and stabilize vertical flight, the aircraft had a high accident rate. And so they abandoned him.


        How amusing such philosophies amuse me laughing
        The level of automation development in those years fully ensured work in all modes.
        And to sculpt computer technology, with theirs, "the program has performed an illegal operation and will be closed" will only. Moreover, there are no extra difficulties in solving the roll stabilization and pitch stabilization problems.
        The problem was the extreme complexity of the power plant in which the failure of any of their elements invariably led to an accident.
        Despite the fact that the plane has only one engine, which no longer meets the safety requirements for combat aircraft adopted in the USSR.
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 22 March 2018 09: 21
          0
          "The level of development of automation in those years fully ensured work in all modes." ////

          NO automation when moving from vertical to horizontal
          and vice versa was not. The pilot did everything manually. Therefore, only with test pilots
          it turned out. And when the plane was handed over to ordinary pilots, they fought on the deck or fell into the water. The English Harrier was also manually controlled, but it was a small plane, everything was easier constructed there, easier for the pilot.
          1. shuravi
            shuravi 22 March 2018 12: 15
            0
            Quote: voyaka uh
            "The level of development of automation in those years fully ensured work in all modes." ////

            NO automation when moving from vertical to horizontal
            and vice versa was not.



            For the reason that this is a manned aircraft. Automation can only help the pilot, but not replace him.

            Therefore, only with test pilots
            it turned out. And when the plane was handed over to ordinary pilots, they fought on the deck or fell into the water.


            Please carry nonsense. No one will allow the pilot to fly from the deck until he has mastered this method of take-off / landing at the airport. And to perfection.

            The pilot did everything manually. The English Harrier was also manually controlled, but it was a small plane, everything was easier constructed there, easier for the pilot.



            You are mistaken again. The difficulty of piloting does not depend on take-off weight.
            1. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 22 March 2018 15: 36
              +1
              "Automation can only help the pilot, but not replace him" ///.

              Then it’s not automation, but simply alarm devices from sensors that help
              in MANUAL control.
              In F-35B, the pilot does not touch the helm and buttons when the plane takes off
              or sits down - the comp does everything. This is called automation.
              Like an autopilot of a liner in flight - automation. The pilot may exit the cockpit.
              But the landing of liners is carried out in MANUAL mode,
              although dozens of useful devices help the pilot.
              1. shuravi
                shuravi 24 March 2018 01: 24
                0
                Quote: voyaka uh
                "Automation can only help the pilot, but not replace him" ///.

                Then it’s not automation, but simply alarm devices from sensors that help
                in MANUAL control.
                In F-35B, the pilot does not touch the helm and buttons when the plane takes off
                or sits down - the comp does everything. This is called automation.
                Like an autopilot of a liner in flight - automation. The pilot may exit the cockpit.
                But the landing of liners is carried out in MANUAL mode,
                although dozens of useful devices help the pilot.



                Yeah. As I understand it, than, for example, you do not know the angle stabilization mode from the parameter stabilization mode.
  17. Viktor Petrov
    Viktor Petrov 25 March 2018 12: 24
    0
    Europeans, instead of dopilil their plane, purchases of F-35 will ditch their defense industry