Sergey Kurginyan: Russia is doomed to become a superpower again
While working on this material, we faced an almost insoluble problem: how to present our interlocutor to the readers? Call him a political scientist? This would not be entirely true - for him, perhaps, this is too narrow a definition. For the same reason, the “scientist”, “politician”, “publicist” and “theater director” have fallen away. In the end, we decided to say simply: today we are talking with Sergey KURGINIAN.Our meeting took place in his office on the street. Sadovaya-Kudrinskaya in Moscow is in the very same office where the “Essence of Time” program is being filmed today, which has long since gained popularity not only on the Russian intellectual Internet, but also in the post-Soviet space. One can say: what Kurginyan is talking about openly, in modern times people are discussing “in the kitchens”.
If you didn’t follow the election events in the Russian Federation, you didn’t watch the programs “Historical trial ”and“ The Court of Time ”, which beat the ratings of political talk shows of Russian TV in recent years, and, finally, did not read books or articles by Kurginyan - which means you have lost a lot. Someone today calls him a brilliant strategist, who in fact seeks to rally and lead the entire left-patriotic movement in Russia. And someone is a long-time “Kremlin adviser,” who almost coordinated the alternative headquarters of Vladimir Putin in the last presidential election.
Although Kurginyan himself publicly criticizes Vladimir Vladimirovich for liberal reforms, in the Kremlin this person is really listened to very carefully. Back in 80, he was one of the experts and advisers to the leadership of the USSR Council of Ministers and the CPSU Central Committee. However, he turned into a confrontation with the “Gorbachev team” - because of the categorical rejection of the restructuring strategy, and then the proposed way of bringing the country out of the impasse. Kurginyan says he feels personally guilty about the collapse of the USSR. And in subsequent years only seeks to correct this historical mistake.
During the recent elections in Russia, Kurginyan organized a so-called. Anti-Orange Committee, uniting many prominent intellectuals of Russia and the most toughly opposed the so-called. "Swamp" opposition. Today, many are convinced that the work of this particular person has allowed Russia to overcome the risks of “color scenarios”.
Antimaydan, anti-Marsh
Like it or not, surely the bright intellectual of our time Sergey Kurginyan is one of the few who for the last 20 years has been very convincingly defending one simple idea: the path of reforms chosen by the new states in the former Soviet Union is the road to disaster. Geopolitical, social, economic, technological, cultural, demographic and, finally, metaphysical catastrophe.
You can still turn off this road. However, for this Russia (and, obviously, Ukraine as well) should develop a new joint project of the future, based not on chimeras borrowed from outside (and now, according to the scientist, who has finally proved its deadlock), but on our unique historical and cultural experience. - legacies, which, by the way, few countries in the world possess. Only in this way, in his opinion, can the fall into the abyss be stopped. And we are talking not only about the post-Soviet countries, but also about the fate of the whole world.
- Sergey Yervandovich, today, when the electoral passions in Russia have subsided, you can look at the situation more carefully. How do you think what happened after the parliamentary elections (and further during the presidential race) really was an attempt at a “color scenario”, but now for the 1 / 6 parts of land? Or did the Kremlin consciously play its part and, as some now say, lowered the reins over the liberal opposition (including giving it, say, some signals about its “weakness” and supposedly “tandem” conflict), so only mobilized own electorate? For example, to get a victory in the first round.
- You can always explain the situation after the fact. Alas, the Kremlin did not play such games. On the contrary, the fact that it began to unfold in these months was a real shock for many there. And this shock paralyzed the action of many structures. First of all, the main television channels, which was seen firsthand. For some reason they all suddenly fell silent. Even law enforcement systems have fallen into a stupor. Most importantly, given the absolute dominance of the enemy on the Internet, the main TV channels, the key information and propaganda resource of the authorities, were not ready. And I claim that they were paralyzed by someone.
Recall, for example, the situation when Georgia attacked South Ossetia. At that moment, the counter-propaganda machine worked and worked to its fullest. Let it be rude, but still. We see only now, with hindsight, that they have started up again - they have released documentaries on the air, for example, the same “Anatomy of Protest” on NTV, etc.
However, by the beginning of the information struggle on our television paralysis appeared. On the Internet, the balance of power was already about 1 to 50 not in favor of power. Only the main channels could counterbalance all this, and to do it instantly. But did not. So, someone led the destructive process.
Finally, another register that was completely inactive was a long time, and with some kind of fanfare, “awakening” pro-government civilian forces. When they became really needed, they simply did not appear. So, only those who have not seen how it actually happened can call all this some insidious maneuver of the Kremlin.
Orange Revolution Kitchen
- Why does the question arise? It is hard to believe that your domineering machine did not work out countermeasures, having so much time and experience of observing "color" coups around the world, including near neighbors - in Ukraine.
- It's hard to believe, but it is. At one point, I was asked to come to my acquaintances who hold, let's say, a very high domineering position. I enter the elevator and watch a monologue of one famous near-power celebrity. And what do I hear? He literally whines: “This is the end!” I say, they say, what are you so worried about? There is a political process. Yes, so far with an unknown result. To which the character replies: no, this is the end! end! And literally beats his head against the wall of the elevator. It is clear that mass gatherings with appropriate information framing will certainly create a shock effect. But it is still surprising that they act on the consciousness of quite competent, prudent people. Moreover, they modify the behavior of even citizens who seem loyal to the authorities.
So no one in the Kremlin, alas, has such complex combinations, especially when they don’t know how it will end. Putin’s main feature (after all, supposedly he should have been so wise to build everything) is that he is incredibly careful. He never does anything without knowing the result. And this was the situation with absolutely unpredictable consequences. No one could know when the first 30 thousand people will be released, and when 70 will come out. And if 70, then the next time may be 170? It is difficult to guess how these people will behave. And they could be tougher. There could be excesses that would not pay back any electoral victories.
However, what was there and what those who started all this did not expect were opposing civil waves, which had nothing to do with power. The response wave began to grow from the part of the intellectual community, as well as simple but not indifferent youth on the Internet. Those. people not at all related to power. If all of them were connected with her, they would have to do nothing, and wait for the order from the government headquarters, from the administrative vertical (this is the behavior of people who are connected with the government). But there was no such order. The same applies to the “Meaning of the Game” Internet program that I created after the parliamentary elections, and the Essence of Time public movement that was born a year ago. If all this had something to do with power, it would look around at power and would be just as paralyzed.
So, those who began to act, did it at the call of the heart. In response to the “orange” attack, the Russian Internet suddenly exploded, and commercials that played a huge role in the mass consciousness went on, for example, about our opposition’s campaigns at the American embassy. Well, this is a well-known scandalous story when oppositionists, taken by surprise right at the entrance to the residence of US Ambassador Michael McFaul, were asked: why are you going there? And then it all and much more dispersed in the form of commercials, demotivators, quite talented. This was done by ordinary citizens at the age of 30 — 35 years. An attempt to introduce a “color scenario” in Russia was unacceptable to them, and they resisted it online.
- You, as the leading political analyst in the Russian Federation and an expert on strategies, figured out who paralyzed the authorities?
- Partly yes. Through his teeth now talked about it. But for now I can say one thing publicly - the liberal wing of the Kremlin, i.e. the pieces that decide they can play their game. In general, the whole areal performance was played in many respects under Medvedev. All this “oligarhoz”, as Bozhena Rynska said, would never have gathered at Bolotnaya if he had not received the go-ahead from the tall figures of the liberal camp. The TV channel "Rain" financed the liberal wing of power. All the impulses that paralyze the system, did it too. But what is the difference between what we had and your Maidan? You had Yushchenko. It was clear who moved. And who moved here?
Either their goal was to create total destabilization in the country and the situation of anarchy (that is, create an effect more abruptly than your Maidan), in order to then seize power in favor of the so-called. A "round table" of some "respected" public figures (this is what they suddenly began to demand during the speeches). Or a backup plan, which was voiced by Mr. Udaltsov at a meeting with Medvedev: the additional term of his presidential term, for two years. Those. calculation on split in "tandem". They worked on this split.
Yes, the authorities understood that the liberal forces were preparing for an attack. They understood that they needed either Medvedev, who would nominate himself and sign Putin’s resignation, or something else that could unwind the spiral further and start rocking the system.
“How exactly did this liberal wing paralyze it, including pro-government structures, headquarters?”
- Obviously, in the offices, someone began to impose the belief that, supposedly, the authorities shouldn’t react in any way. What a supposedly wise strategy is not to interfere. That the oppositionists themselves will get tired, and if we begin to answer, they will become even more angry.
Then I started my online program "The Meaning of the Game." On one of them, I burned in front of the camera a symbol of the protesters at Bolotnaya, a white ribbon. It was a very important symbolic step. Other people on the Internet, in the blogger community, also started counterplaying. Although the ratio of forces was 1 to 50, and we have already observed, in fact, the triumphal procession of the fascist army entering the country like a knife in butter. It was evident that the rush from the "criminal power" to the "people" was about to begin. The case went according to all the canons of the “color script”.
When on December 24 they gathered a rally on Sakharov, we had an alter rally on the Sparrow Hills on the same day. I organized the rally for the first time in my life. There were already a few thousand of us. But what is important is that there, on the stage, I again pointedly burned the white ribbon. From this moment a point of civil gathering arose.
The essence of counterplay
- Ukraine, where the Orange Revolution once won, is extremely interesting in your experience of “counter-revolution”. At what point was the interception of the initiative, how and by whom did it all prepare?
- After the New Year, the “Historical Process” program resumed on the “Russia 1” channel, where I had the opportunity to enter into polemics with the symbols of our “struggle for freedom and all good” - Ksenia Sobchak and Vladimir Ryzhkov. Discussion watched the whole country. The task was not to parry politely their manipulative arguments, but to strictly tell them their place. I want to emphasize this because This is very important in any counterattacks on the “color scenarios”. So, when Ryzhkov and Sobchak left this program, they left not as triumphs, but with a feeling of profound defeat. They regretted coming to a direct public dispute. For the first time they were openly given an informational battle, and they suffered a crushing fiasco on television.
We must understand that today the Internet is radically changing the whole picture of political war. Nobody expected that the Russians would use it not according to the American model, but on their own, that an alternative Internet army would arise. My organization has played a big role here, incl. in numbers. We have several thousand people who can work autonomously and according to all the advanced rules of Internet wars. They “packed” Internet content and meanings in such a way that our “orange” in the network environment was left either to drop into discussions “below the baseboard level” or simply to keep quiet.
The point of civil gathering unwound further. A variety of businessmen began to flock to us, officials from the provinces, from defense departments. They claimed that they were ready to go to the end, but not to let the "orange" ones. And gradually managed to gather a wide opposition against the so-called. "Opposition". I had to step on the throat of my own song and urge: let all the opponents of the “orange” gather on Poklonnaya, including and my ideological opponents. It turned out the majority. The same Alexander Dugin, with whom we have long been engaged in a tough ideological controversy, but I consider him one of the smartest people in the country.
From that moment - from the rally on Poklonnaya - the “colored” ridge was broken. We have shown that we have a spirit, and not among them, it was demonstrated that there really gathered strength, reflecting the mood of the country.
“Observing from the outside, we saw that in all this opposition to the“ color ”in Russia, for some reason you turned out to be a central figure. Interestingly, and from the Kremlin with you some kind of dialogue was conducted all this time? From the side, say, of the “illiberal wing”?
- I am a key, but, very importantly, political figure opposition to the Kremlin. Not because I am a titan, but because everyone else was suddenly silent at that moment. The same applies to the completely strange position of our Communist Party, which, in theory, was to be the first in a battle with "oranzhizmom." At the largest "anti-orange" rally on Poklonnaya, respected intellectuals spoke - Maxim Shevchenko, Mikhail Leontyev, Alexander Dugin, Nikolai Starikov, Alexander Prokhanov.
A wonderful set of people who speak a language, who have content, position. Many of them declared their deep faith in "Putinism" (because of some hope or simply believing in the regime). But, speaking, I noticed that in the “anti-orange” coalition both those who are for Putin and those who are against were gathered. I am against it, because Putin and much of what he does in modern Russia is only a slight slowdown in regress, but not a change in the course leading to the bottom of history.
Apart from me, nobody said this on Poklonnaya. This allowed the opponents of Poklonnaya to call our rally "puting." But so I turned out to be a key patriotic figure. This is very important, because one thing is a broad “anti-orange” coalition, and another is power and its adherents. The whole game of the Americans was based on the fact that everything will develop here according to the classical scheme. On the one hand dull power with its batons and tanks, on the other, a “rebellious people” who opposed the “criminal power”. As soon as it turned out that the people are against those who are against the government, the scheme flew.
In such matters, it is very important to destroy the game paradigm. People are divided into those who create the rules of the game, those who play by the rules, and, finally, those who are just a figure. So we acted as those who broke the rules. They have difficulties. Our American "well-wishers" have calculated that if they continue to unwind the spiral of "orangism", then another spiral - of civil protest - will also unwind. And stronger.
That is, overseas "friends" understood - we are ready to turn to the end. Do the Maidan? Get anti-Maidan. Yes, we are law-abiding citizens, conflicts are disgusting to us. But if you start arming people, we will do the same. When it became clear that there would be two spirals, the heart of an African American could not stand it ...
Bees against flies
- Sergey Yervandovich, did you have any dialogue with representatives of Putin during this time? Maybe with him personally?
- Some of the people who are in power today were sitting at my club with 1992. Young boys, then, were just watching me doing analysis, learning. They came to the club as if they were homework, once every two weeks. Over time, some of these former boys took a certain position in power. Then they pushed. Then the situation changed again, someone else appeared. These people have a certain reverence for me. Yes, today they are trying to reproach me, as if I run to them and ask what to do. This, to put it mildly, is not quite so.
Yes, I have friends in the elite (and there are many more) - after all, we live in the same society. For example, Valery Zorkin - the head of the Constitutional Court, who once wrote the preface to my book "Swings". We are friends with him 19 years. He was the head of the COP, then he ceased to be, then he became again. I have such friends 10 — 12. So what? Yes, they represent a certain club, but this group is quite diffuse.
When Poklonnaya was preparing, it was simple businessmen who began to invest in all this. Naturally, they began to rush to the chiefs, to whom they could. Since there were already a lot of businessmen, and the “anti-orange” movement was already worse than December 10, they naturally broke through all the obstacles. And we could not have gathered a broad coalition, incl. without the "anti-orange" Putinists, without some kind of internal consensus with all.
What is a broad coalition? With us now, not a single political organization will gather more than 5 thousand people for a rally. Including the "United Russia". And there are a few like her. I collect no more than 3 - 4 thousand. Others collect no more than 1 thousand. So, for a really mass event, you need about 100 organizations, each of which is able to bring at least 1 thousand people.
That is how the Marsh and Sakharov gathered. It doesn't matter if they paid. The fact is that they had to mobilize everyone who could, in principle, be reduced to one square. And for Bolotnaya they had to include even exotic variants, a mixture of a hedgehog with a snake: from gay social organizations to neo-Nazis.
We also gathered everyone who could be with us, from veterans of Afghans to the Union of Orthodox Citizens. Yes, I can admit, the power did not bother us. But she did not help us. And what struck as a result: no one expected that such a mass would come to us - 140 thousand people. It turned out more than our proud "revolutionaries" had.
You ask why in the "color scenarios" all the time working on the number? There is a certain rule according to which a rally in 250 thousand can create a critical situation when law enforcement agencies and all security systems are no longer operational. Even for Moscow, this is a complete paralysis of life. The coup forces seek to gain about 250 - 300 thousand and immediately declare that there are millions of them. Remember the legendary "million" Udaltsov! Or your Maidan. And then what? The master becomes a stun gun, which advances the active core. But if someone starts to create a counter-core, what then? Yes, all this is very unpleasant. This is something that should not be allowed ... but what to do - surrender to the usurpers of the street?
- And yet, why in Ukraine these scenarios were easily realizable, and you do not? Is this a consensus of elites, high-quality preparation for resisting external influence? Maybe, just the Russian elites are, say, more sovereign, intelligent, cunning and consolidated, but ours are not?
- Yes, ours were more ready. It's clear. But there is another difference. You have a lot of citizens, whom I would call “small people”. How to finally define them, I do not know - "zapadentsy", Greek Catholics, "Bandera". This is your business. It seems to me that all this public still controls the process, maybe more president. Although I do not presume to assert. The main thing is that your “small people”, in my personal assessment, have a completely disgusting dream about the future of Ukraine, but it is important that they have such a dream. And they also have their own - from my point of view, absolutely demonic - passion.
I carefully read not only open, but also closed documents in Ukraine. And I would say that some of these comrades are direct followers of one of the old ideologues of Ukrainian nationalism, Pavel Shtepa, who argued that as soon as Muscovites could be weakened, the issue in eastern Ukraine could be finally resolved. Yes, let it cost in 1 million lives. Even if a third of the Ukrainian people, in the opinion of this figure, will be sacrificed. But all this, in their opinion, is a normal payment, so that the remaining two thirds consolidate into some kind of new identity created by nationalists even today.
Of course, all this is disgusting. But representatives of your "small people" for this went to war, sat in camps, killed. So, after all, there is a dream, there is a passion and consolidation around its own set of values. Let absolutely demonic, ridiculous set. What, by the way, they will now do with their dream in the current European loose world - I do not know. But they still continue to dream.
In Russia, the “small nation” (I do not put any ethnic sense into it) has only the content that denies Russia itself. He has nothing in relation to his homeland. There is no dream of Russianness, there is no Russian passion in principle. Just hate and stick together on this hate.
The last time they formed themselves into a “small people”, opposing the rest of the people, they again produced at Bolotnaya and Sakharov. We didn’t call them a minority, they said it themselves. Yes, they say, in the TV battles, they lose miserably to Kurginyan. But this is because they are supposedly a noble minority. Some of them called themselves bees, and, they say, therefore a minority. Well, everyone else, of course, flies. There was another opposition: noble dolphins against anchovies, i.e. such a defective majority. Such incitement is even incomprehensible to what kind of discord. Raschelovechivanie opponent. And against the background of self-praise.
My parents are scientists. I come from a Moscow professorial family. But in this environment, nothing like that has ever been admissible — contempt for his own people, such indescribable arrogance and self-praise.
- But this is the standard "orange" technology. We are supposedly cool, trendy. And they are the gray slaves of the regime, etc. Sink - you will be like us! Standard advertising and marketing trick.
- Yes, by itself. But I look deeper. They formed themselves as an autonomous macro-object. And most importantly - they are such a subject. No question, for how much money they collect the crowd. There is a unifying passion of hatred, inner solidarity, class support. And the Americans made a bet on this class - today there’s nothing more to bet on.
- But this is a losing card after all.
- It was not safe for them to bet on something else. All the money flows and positions in the agency of influence began to work exclusively for Nemtsov, Kasparov and their kindred public, because it was clear that they were somehow controlled by puppets. Betting on someone else meant releasing a genie from a bottle. They could not include in the game all anti-power forces, such as the broad nationalist movement. It is very difficult in Russia to combine all this with characters like Shenderovich or Navalny. But there is a radical Islam. There are other forces that can be included. And to carry out, say, not the "mink revolution" (in the words coined by Sobchak), but the "sinteponovuyu."
Americans reasonably fear to include here something other than the forces of destruction. If in Ukraine they want something like a pro-American nationalist state (and therefore it is desirable to be rigidly consolidated), then there is only destruction. To include some kind of strong national energy and to issue it is simply afraid. And then, in Russia, this energy is not included, say, without anti-Americanism. After all, they are accustomed to the forces that they include, they ran to the embassy with a report.
So they didn't make any mistakes here. Russia is simply the largest nuclear country, the only one who is able to resist them. Yes, Obama is an incredible adventurer, but even he could not risk provoking a civil war in such a country. A mild scenario, where there are stupid troops, with which the “insurgent people” are pushing a nail into the barrel of the machine gun, can be worked out. But not more.
The only thing they did not expect was real civilian resistance, the design of “anti-orange” patriotic forces capable of autonomous behavior. As soon as they saw that a new factor had entered the game, they began to play back. Because working further meant changing the script. And the Americans never do that, no matter how much they talk about their theories of chaos and so on. In this case, they are conservative.
I was told that when Obama was shown the video News from Russia of those days, he could not understand what kind of movement of some Kurginyan “The essence of time”. What is Essence of time? He asked: are there any Baptists or sectarians? No, these are not sectarians.
Our future
- In your opinion, how much will the Kremlin’s foreign policy change under Putin, primarily with regard to Ukraine? As far as Putin’s entourage is generally ready to deal with the Eurasian Union, and what kind of unification will it be?
- It seems to me that in Russia the rose-colored glasses were finally removed, and among sane intellectuals, disappointment in the ability to build amorous relations with Europe, especially with the whole West, prevailed. Although Zbignev Brzezinski and constantly convinces: they say, Russia must urgently take in NATO and the European Union. All those who sooner or later begin to think something, inevitably come to one conclusion: the future of Europe itself, not to mention our (and your) relationship with it, is a big question.
Russia and all post-Soviet countries are a loose space between NATO, the emerging radically Islamic (Sunni) world, which the Americans are helping to establish, and, finally, China. In this configuration, we, fortunately, start thinking again about what a superpower is, why our ancestors have created it for centuries, that there is an independent power pole in the world and global sovereignty in general.
People in Russia think about this topic, both having something to do with the government and surrounded by friends who are related to it. In general, all meditate. However, I do not think that the Russian authorities themselves will in the near future be occupied by anything else other than pragmatists. The power in today's Russia acts only on hopelessness or under the pressure of circumstances.
But the fact is that in the coming years, circumstances can develop and change very rapidly. Moreover, these processes depend on a mass of factors far from Russia and the CIS countries. Say, will or will not bomb Iran? If so, with what result? Excesses are also activated on social grounds. Will the “orange” succeed in closing themselves to some other social strata?
In Russia, another “orange” demarche is possible, which will come somewhere after Putin’s “honeymoon”. Or rather - a short performance on the theme “the return of the prodigal son.” By "prodigal son," I mean the liberals who changed him. All this together, of course, will create a situation where the authorities will have to determine and act. Depending on the manner in which these actions will be - in a liberal or conditionally neo-Soviet - and different theses, different ideas about the good, different principles of dialogue with neighbors will be put forward. In the end - different projects, without which the dialogue is meaningless.
- Apparently, the Customs and Eurasian Unions is the very project.
- In the past, we were united, including with Ukraine, to build an “Orthodox symphony” together at some stage. And then - to build communism. Now the question of the union. It cannot be only a pragmatist, to which they are trying to reduce it. Question in the project. What should happen in the story? Will Russia give birth to this project? Or will it continue to put exclusively on pragmatics?
Personally, I think that even the softest, most delicate tools that ensure any convergence between us are desirable. Let it not be the melting of glass into a new vessel, but the gluing together of a split. Although such a prospect is unproductive, it will not give definitive historical results. But if even an iota of the fragments come closer together, the Customs Union or something else begins to interdependence on us, it is still a great blessing for both nations. But you need to go to this good with the utmost delicacy.
Yes, in the current world constants no radical rapprochement between us is possible. But the constants change and will change. It will take another two years. The world will not be the same as it is now. Under these conditions, a lot will have to change, to make all sorts of choices. Therefore, it is time to pronounce the project. And do it calmly, without nerves, in a climate of trust and, if you like, some irresponsibility. The current politicians of the first rank cannot afford the latter - they are not bound by sufficient trust in each other, but are bound by the responsibility imposed on them by the official agenda. You can hear everything they are talking about.
So, everything should happen at the level of intellectual elites. This should be a dialogue not of the bureaucracy, business, special services or politicians, but of the elites.
- Some in Ukraine today claim that our elites have long and stubbornly degraded. There is an opinion that they not only finally broke away from the interests of the people, but lost their adequacy even in understanding their own interests. Yes, there are also counter-elites, there are people. Maybe it's time to negotiate with them?
“You see, I’m not so close to urging your people to re-create a new Union.” This is now called a call for unconstitutional activities. All that I can and I will do is to “knead” the relevant topics, present the corresponding scenarios to your colleagues and show the challenges. Europe can now begin to split, then what will happen to Ukraine? What role does she want to take on, what will be the costs? How does it represent further development?
I recently talked with one Ukrainian radical. And I asked him a simple one: if in one scenario your daughter should be a cook or a dishwasher, and in the other, a doctor of science with a state award, which scenario is closer to you? It is clear that it is better to be healthy and rich than poor and sick. But if the scenario is not only in front of the Ukrainian people, but also in front of its elites, it is so asymmetrically arranged, what then do they want?
This is after all a question about your future, about living people, their positions, quality of life. So far it seems to me that the Customs and Eurasian Unions are such a pragmatist, slow and sticky, projects in which one speaks more but does not. But if in the world and further the situation remained as it is, in all this swamp we would be with you and continue to slowly sink further.
However, the situation will not be like this, but will slide down. This is a global process. And in this sliding situation, very quickly and inevitably, worldviews, leadership institutions, forms of communication, and ideologies will change. Today, something seems unthinkable, but tomorrow a fraternal, voluntary, deep, mutually beneficial political alliance between Russia and Ukraine may well be on the agenda.
Look, even Europe with what incredible efforts united, and quite deeply. And there was not even a single language or several leading languages on which they would have relied, as well as common values - whatever they would tell us today about these values. Yes, now the EU can split itself - into the rich north and the rest of the cocktail of lagging countries. But even such a bizarre union once became possible, since there was a will. We are with you - a unique experience of joint fraternal existence. And now - such a huge amount of frustration with the division.
Of course, there are those who are satisfied with this destruction: for some, it warms national feelings, and some of the elites are happy too, who have tasted the sweetness of arbitrary rule in the territories under their control. Our separation warms the feelings of our enemies, for whom the main thing is that everything remains as it is.
But there is another wave, and it has not gone anywhere. If the world and the order of things in it have recently changed so radically, then who said that everything will remain as it is and further?
Ukraine goes to hell for the same rut as the rest
- And how do you think the “Orange Revolution” №2 is possible in Ukraine, for which, for example, the next parliamentary elections can be the reason?
- The Orange Group in your country is very strong and it will never disappear. Another thing is that she has no historical chance. Her project was a fiasco. It will not drag Ukraine into the direction it wanted. But this group will always exist. Perhaps because she has her own project (from my point of view, absolutely crazy), and her opponents do not. They live like birds sing, and they have no ideology. Although there is a lot to do with the fact that the Russians themselves do not have an intelligible historiosophical project: if Russia itself has long rushed to the West, what else is there to say!
But the “orange group” has a colossal weakness - it is impossible to tighten Ukraine to the West if the West does not want it. And therefore, in the modern world process, the chances of implementing this plan are zero. And the Orange project has no autonomous state life.
More precisely, it is, but only in the extreme "zapadenskoy" group. It is very fierce and at the same time small in number, and its misanthropic intent of “separatist” life is not realizable under the condition of the existence of Russia, even if it is ruled by Chubais. We simply cannot accept a million refugees. “Zapadentsy” understand this, but, apparently, still believe in our collapse.
In general, in Ukraine in the coming years, it will be possible to observe political swings: either one side or the other will take the upper hand. The struggle will be long and protracted. Extreme radicals will increasingly understand that there is no chance to ruin Russia. There will be a viscous, cunning Ukrainian political life, in which the country will degrade, as it is, alas, is happening now.
- Do you feel that our party in power today is acting to the detriment of its own electoral and political interests? For example, “forgetting” about its main promise - to integrate with Russia. Due to which she received so far the support of voters. And now it quickly loses.
- And what is, in fact, her task? Capitalism is being built. Accelerated, on a criminal base - so why should he be healthy? And then what: is this peripheral capitalism or will Ukraine become as much a participant in the world division of labor as France? But this will not happen, they will not give it to do, and for the role of the periphery you do not need a powerful industrial complex, which so far you have. What then? It remains only to obey and lower the standard of living three times. Nobody has a drive to the Latin American dictatorship - the XXI century is in the courtyard.
And what to do? To crawl: the strategic issues are not solved, the citizens of Ukraine receive the honorable right to be nannies and dishwashers in the same Russia or in the West. Ukraine goes to hell on the same rut as everyone else. To get out of it, you need a genius or a dictator. We need the incredible will of the people to change the paradigm of their lives. But all this, so far, alas, no.
Then the question arises of restoring the superpower. But it largely depends on the Kremlin. Therefore, your pro-Russian electorate needs to understand that for the time being it can only wait for pragmatic steps towards rapprochement: you can achieve the state status of the Russian language, join the Customs Union ... and reunion, re-create a superpower - alas. The Russian authorities do not yet have its ideology, and it, too, is still pulling its country into hell. Little by little. Putin leads there on a gentle slope. If it had been thrown off, it would have been faster - they would have taken it in a year. And even before.
“Federalization can solve most Ukrainian problems, as many people think. Do you agree with that?
“It will be beneficial for Russia, but federalization will always stumble upon violent resistance from a“ small nation, ”who understands that he may lose the right to control a“ big nation. ” It means that federalization will take place in the conditions of an acute political struggle. But who will issue it? Yanukovych?
Bring back the spirit!
- In your opinion, how will the Russian-American relations develop further? If you look at the situation with the same missile defense, they are now at all in a strategic impasse. Or maybe Moscow and Washington are in some kind of temporary clinch?
- While the Putin concept of local sovereignty is in effect, even in the clinch we will not stand for long. How does it differ, say, from mine? For an elected president, sovereignty is an apartment in a house called “world order”. And you can quarrel with the house manager, the United States, about what kind of apartment we will be allocated. But the owner of this house is the USA and nobody else. I think that Russia and all of us need another house, I am a supporter of another world project, where apartments are distributed in a completely different way.
So, by the way, it was in the Soviet Union. The USSR built communism. It does not matter what was meant by this, but it was an alternative global project where Russia built its apartments and managed them in its own way. If the project continued to work, today everyone would definitely be more comfortable than the one we received as a result.
I am convinced that in a strange house we had no place and no. Ukraine and many others there, too, there is no place. And there is certainly no place for Kazakhstan. Or Armenia, which will have to choose - be it a slave to Turkey or Iran. The world is merciless, and the poem called "Sovereignty" today is not for medium and small countries.
That is my vision of the world. And I have always said that Russia is doomed to become a superpower again, and that the “USSR 2.0” is inevitable. Another thing is that to create it you need to have a historical passion, a historical drive.
- And where does this passion come from?
- This is a problem of the spirit. There is a moment when people are broken, and then they live like pigs, rejoicing in it. And it happens when people ignite and want some other life. That's all. In general, the motto is: “Bring back the spirit!”
“But what you talked about is irrational ...”
- First, the rational discourse ended another 30 years ago, along with the project of modernity. Therefore, constant appeals to rationality are late. Secondly, nothing happens in Russia in a rational way. Thirdly, the problem of the spirit exists not only in our country. Here is Poland. In 50's XVII century. it was crushed by the Swedes and rotted, but suddenly it struck the bell in Czestochowa, about which Senkevich wrote, the Polish spirit woke up, and all the conquerors went back home, albeit temporarily.
Or Greece in the XIX century. Byron on the side of the rebel Greeks:
Alarmed by the dead of sleep, can I sleep?
Tyrants crush the world - shall I give in?
The harvest has ripened - should I delay reap?
On the bed - sharp thorns; I do not sleep;
In my ears that day, the trumpet sings,
Her heart beats ...
There are many similar stories. How, for example, did the spirit awaken during World War II? Before that, everything went shaky or shaky, and then once - and woke up. Man is not a rational being.
- During perestroika, apparently, it was also possible to wake up a certain spirit, it clearly was. But sent him to the destruction, decay. And the collapse is still ongoing. So we are dealing with a process that is manageable?
- Yes. The state is the means by which people develop their historical mission. If this understanding is killed and explained to the people that the state, relatively speaking, is comfort, tasty and nourishing food, and he begins to growl: “We want a normal life!” - then, of course, these people lose everything. Did Taras Bulba like “normal” life? Did she burn for her at the stake? Did the Young Guard dream about this?
What does a person mean in general, “when his wishes are food and sleep? An animal, not more. The current attempt to crush a person with the consumer society is another step towards enormous inequality. At the door of this world, the idea of just crazy inequality is knocking, in our opinion, essentially gnostic. In the sense that the spirit supposedly belongs only to the highest caste, for all the others it seems not to have it. This idea will be raised as soon as the consumer society finally extinguishes the spirit. The main task of the adherents of this idea is to suppress the spirit ... Take a look at how these dead crowds walk around us.
But what do I see now in the midst of such crowds? Thousands and tens of thousands of young people who are 25 — 35 years old, they already have their children, and they come to me and say: yes, we survived, we survived, but we don’t want to live only for ourselves.
This is Russia! In this sense, it is. Through the asphalt suddenly makes such a strange grass. And these are not separate instances, but a process. Then someone should just make out.
- In 1990 you ran for the Supreme Soviet of the RSFSR, and in your election leaflet (we found it on the website of the State Historical Public Library of the Russian Federation), it was said that the funds between the republics were distributed unfairly, and Russia because of this was losing billions of rubles. But in Ukraine, many are convinced that they have fed the Russians all their lives. What do you say to that?
- Now it is meaningless to talk about it: if they were fed from time immemorial, but now they have ceased, it means that everything is good and there is no need to object. The second. This leaflet is a fake, which has long been wandering around the Internet. It does not have my signature and no details. What you saw was all that our enemies could “dig” at us in a gigantic amount of time. Some people either with provocative goals, or in a fit of passion released this leaflet. I never said anything like that.
Now about my position that I held at that time: if someone raises the question of secession from the Soviet Union, then of course you can frighten him with prison and other reprisals, but if a strong impetus has gone, the conditions for leaving should become the main topic of discussion. from the USSR. We say: you decided to separate - it means that we set a number of conditions for you. Economic - and not only. For example, in Canada, the issue of the division of the state was raised several times. But it was said: "If Canada is divisible, then we divide Quebec."
So here, if we divide the Soviet Union (despite, among other things, the 1975 Helsinki Accords, which determined the inviolability of borders), its constituent parts are also divisible. And people live in them, because they have their own vision of the situation, and they are not serfs. There are citizens who want the same scenario, there are those who want the opposite. There are Moldovans who want to join Romania, but there are also Transnistrians who are against. And they are the same citizens who have the same democratic rights as the rest.
Therefore, if some part of the country began to demand separation, it does not need to be suppressed, it is necessary to counterpose other civilian energy. And then, perhaps, the process will collapse completely.
Not just melancholy, but inner rebellion
- Let me quote the famous theater director Mark Rozovsky: “This is a Bengal fire that will soon burn out. Kurginyan is absolutely Dostoevsky type: not even a demon, but obscurantism with political ambitions, which the KGB needed first, and then the new Kremlin administration ”(“ Interlocutor ”, 2.03.2012) ...
- I do not understand what is said here: content - zero. At one time, this Rozovsky, looking at me in love, sang "When your friend is in the blood ..." Now he, like the entire liberal intelligentsia, was filled with hatred for me. But what did he say ?! Rozovsky's friends have long accused me of having to do with the “special folders of the Central Committee”, the highest political intelligence of the party, to which — so you know — the State Security Committee was afraid to go for a kilometer (and this is true). But in general: they accuse me of being a resident of the Mossad, they say that I am the main mediator in negotiations with the Iranian mullahs. But one must choose: either the KGB, or the “special folders of the Central Committee”, or the “Mossad”, or with the mullahs.
What is next? "Sparkler"? It has been burning for 25 for years, and all this time they have been discussing it.
For me, Rozovsky is a nervous actor type. They frighten him with something, he gets excited, tries to say something, but cannot say anything. Characteristic property of people attacking me: nothing to say to them. Therefore, they either pull out some kind of fake leaflet, or say some words, but when you start to make out the words, it turns out that they are meaningless.
I can give you one more example: my opponents constantly state that I’ve been failing, and I’m starting to do so. Although I did not participate in any campaign that ended in defeat. Now they accused me of ensuring the victory of Putin. So failing - or secured the victory?
- Sergey Yervandovich, you graduated from the Moscow Geological Prospecting Institute, then the drama school of them. B. Schukin, were the director, then engaged in politics. Why did you leave the theater - became closely in the director's role?
- It was different. My father is a great historian, my mother is a philologist. I was born in a family that is a classic Soviet “mix”: the father is from a deaf Armenian village, and the great-grandmother of the mother is Princess Mescherskaya. All confused Soviet power. I grew up in the humanitarian climate of the Moscow professorial family. When it came time to choose, I realized that entering a university of the same profile that my parents had would predetermine my fate once and for all.
In addition, my closest friend did not want to go to either a humanitarian or a technical college. And we decided to move it into exploration, considering that this is akin to extreme tourism (this attracted us).
In addition, I studied for some time in a specialized school where I became allergic to the atmosphere of elitism. In general, I did not want to go to the Mekhmat, the geological university seemed to me more attractive. When I realized that it was necessary to draw and pick stones, it was already too late. But the mathematics department grabbed me. I defended myself as a candidate of physical and mathematical sciences. Then, while working on my doctoral dissertation, I entered the Theater School for them. B. Schukin. I began to study theater at school, and since that time there has not been a year so that I will not put on a performance. The Shchukin School graduated with honors. By this time I had, in fact, already created my own theater. It was necessary to choose between him and science. I chose the theater.
In general, it turns out that I was always engaged in the humanities, including philosophy. But in Soviet times, studying them in the relevant departments meant being in very blinded dogmas. Nothing was more dangerous then than to develop a communist ideology. The authorities were offended by this even more than by dissidence.
Well, my theater has always been connected with philosophy, it was in some sense a laboratory, and when perestroika began, we immediately formed a scientific center (the unity of culture and science, by the way, is my old theme). But what I never wanted was to be a politician and sit in parliament. I perceived my political activity in the conditions of the beginning of the collapse of the USSR as a kind of mission, because I considered such a collapse a world catastrophe. He saw himself as a kind of deterrent to this process. We have done quite a lot, and I have nothing to reproach myself for, except for one thing: if I hadn’t hoped for the CPSU, I joined the ranks when I started to run from the party, but would have gathered such meetings as on the Sparrow Hills, To be sure, counteraction against the collapse of the Soviet Union would be more active and productive.
Everything that I did in those years, I do now. I have a theater - called "Theater" on the boards. " Play after play, I'm a playwright - they say that they are not even a graphomaniac. Like this. And the fact that as if I was tossing about from side to side - from geology to the theater, from theater to politics - this is an invention of the spiteful critics.
After all, is not Mr. Havel’s life full of the most unexpected coups? And what is the real profession in Nemtsov? Not to mention Udaltsov, who has none at all. Then what questions to me?
- Do you have political ambitions?
- The idea that I will sit down in some office in the parliament or somewhere else, causes me not just longing, but a deep internal rebellion. A year ago, young people came to me who, on a spiritual plane, miraculously survived the terrible 90. A lot of them. It seems to me important to formalize them organizationally and politically. There will be a new left-wing patriotic structure. Perhaps she will gain weight (in any case, we are already several orders of magnitude larger than the activists of the “Left Front”). My task is for them to become a force and, perhaps, even before the catastrophe they managed to turn Russia. And her prospects, if you continue to sit still, seem bleak to me - all countries connected with the betrayal of Soviet unity at the end of 80 will end badly.
- Sergey Yervandovich, you often used the words “hell”, “hell”, “catastrophe”, “gloomy” in the conversation - and all this is about the current RF. It is even a little incomprehensible: how do you feel about the Motherland, not the future, not the past, but the one that exists today?
- Last time I often hear: "In this country there are no more people who could teach you how to love Russia."
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