Military Review

"Trans-Caspian dreams" Azarov: energy independence or blackmail of Russia?

76
"Trans-Caspian dreams" Azarov: energy independence or blackmail of Russia?

The statement of the Prime Minister of Ukraine, Mykola Azarov, that Ukraine is interested in the implementation of the Trans-Caspian gas pipeline project, has caused a slight stir in our country and abroad, primarily in Russia. In particular, the Ukrainian prime minister said this during a meeting with Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev in Baku in early April. The head of government recalled that Ukraine is interested in diversifying energy supplies to the country. In this regard, Azarov said, when the parties involved in the construction of the Trans-Caspian gas pipeline, reached an agreement, Ukraine is ready to consider the question of its participation in it.

Also, the details and conditions that the government of Ukraine has put forward to this project have become known. Thus, according to mass media, Ukraine is ready to invest in the construction of the Trans-Caspian gas pipeline 790 million euros, provided that it includes a branch to the LNG terminal in the Georgian port of Kulevi, from there gas can be supplied to Ukraine by sea (for this purpose it is necessary to build a branch from Trans-Caspian gas pipeline, which will allow increasing the volume of transshipment through the terminal in Kulevi from the current 10 to 20 billion cubic meters of gas per year). In Ukraine, the gas will receive the LNG terminal, which is planned to be built at the port of Yuzhny. Also, according to some data, Kiev has already sent a formal proposal for its participation in the project to Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan.

The reason for the resonance, which caused these plans of Kiev, has a purely political flavor: as you know, the Trans-Caspian gas pipeline project causes rejection of Russia, since it is intended to connect Turkmenistan to the Nabucco project. While the latter has the main objective to provide the EU countries with Caspian energy bypassing the Russian Federation, i.e. reduce the energy dependence of the European Union on Russian gas. It is also no secret that Nabucco is the main competitor of the Russian South Stream gas supply to Europe, bypassing Ukraine.

In particular, the Trans-Caspian Gas Pipeline (TCG) project involves laying a “pipe” of 300 km in length along the bottom of the Caspian Sea in order to connect Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan. Further, this gas pipeline, partially using the existing South Caucasus gas pipeline, should ensure the delivery of Turkmen gas either to Nabucco or to the Black Sea coast of Georgia. Further, there are various options for delivering gas to European consumers - either to the west coast of the Black Sea and then to EU countries, or liquefying it and transporting it in tankers to European LNG terminals, or via the White Stream. The route Tengiz (Kazakhstan) - Turkmenbashi (Turkmenistan) - Baku (Azerbaijan) - Tbilisi (Georgia) - Erzurum (Turkey) is planned to transport annually 20-30 billion cubic meters of gas. The project cost is estimated at 7,9 billion euros, while the gas pipeline in the Baku-Tbilisi-Erzerum section is already operational.

The EU perfectly understands the prospects that this project opens in the field of diversification of energy supplies to Europe. And it was the “big games” around this project that caused last year’s serious differences between the European Union and Russia. In particular, in September 2011, the Council of the European Union approved the mandate to hold EU negotiations with Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan on the conclusion of a legally binding agreement on the construction of the Trans-Caspian gas pipeline. The Russian authorities immediately expressed "surprise" with this decision of the Europeans, indicating that this would lead to a complication of the situation in the region.

Expressing the Kremlin’s position on this matter, the Russian Foreign Ministry said: “As far as we know, for the European Union this is also the first such experience, and we are surprised that it is supposed to be“ delivered ”to the Caspian Sea, to the shores of which none of the European Union states goes.” Moscow stressed that “attempts to intervene in Caspian affairs from the outside, especially on issues that are sensitive to the members of the Caspian Five, can very seriously complicate the situation in this region and adversely affect the ongoing five-sided negotiations on the new legal status of the Caspian Sea.” According to the Russian side, "decisions on such large-scale projects should be made with the participation of all the Caspian littoral states." “We hope that the Council of the European Union will give due attention to the position of Russia and other member states of the Caspian Five and refrain from actions not agreed in the appropriate format,” concluded the Russian Foreign Ministry.

Thus, Russia, speaking against the construction of the TKG, focused not on its economic interests, but on the political situation in the Caspian region, where the issue of determining the sea border and the distribution of Caspian resources still remains unresolved. On disagreements over the marine part of the project, they play in the Russian Federation, taking Iran as an ally. In particular, Russia and Iran believe that the issues of laying pipelines on the seabed should be resolved with the consent of all the Caspian littoral countries. While Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan assume that this issue can be resolved by two contracting parties, and not by all five littoral states.

Europe did not respond to this position of Moscow in any way, and in October 2011 r, now ex-President of the Russian Federation Dmitry Medvedev again raised this issue, expressing the hope that Russia's partners in the Caspian basin would adhere to the previously reached agreements in the field of energy cooperation. “I would like to draw the attention of members of the Security Council (RF) to one of the topics - the topic that we discussed, and I discussed with my colleagues - the Trans-Caspian gas pipeline,” said Medvedev, expressing the hope that the partners of the Russian Federation on the Caspian Summit, “Who think through various energy cooperation procedures, will adhere to previously adopted agreements”. According to him, the gas pipeline project is “a rather complicated issue, which, of course, is directly dependent on the status of the Caspian Sea as an inland sea and requires the coordination of the positions of all the states participating in the Caspian summit.” At the same time, he added that “in any case, Russia should formulate its position in order to bring it to the attention of our Caspian partners.” According to Medvedev, it is primarily about legal status and environmental safety issues, "to which we must pay attention, taking into account what is currently happening in the Caspian Sea basin."

Thus, Moscow strengthened its position (or, at least, so decided): the “environmental aspect” of the TCG project was added to the really difficult issue of the legal status of the Caspian Sea.

At the same time, recent events indicate that the dialogue with Russia around the TAG has gone into a deaf corner. Thus, the statements of the Ukrainian Prime Minister Mykola Azarov on the project coincided with the talks in Baku between Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and the Azerbaijani side, during which the participants could not find a common language on the planned construction of the Trans-Caspian gas pipeline. Both Russia and Azerbaijan declared the need to conclude the negotiations of the Caspian states on the status of the Caspian Sea as soon as possible, but further disagreements began. “We proceed from the assumption that external players (EU) will respect the opinion of the Caspian states,” Lavrov said, pointing out that the Caspian states first need to agree on the status of the Caspian Sea, and then lay something along its bottom. In Baku, they send Moscow to Brussels (hence the words of the Russian minister about external players) and indicate: Azerbaijanis will build their part of the pipe only on their own territory, and then deal with the main customer of gas - the EU.

By the way, before these negotiations, the Minister of Industry and Energy of Azerbaijan Natik Aliyev informed that the Trans-Caspian gas pipeline is an important and large project, and Azerbaijan is interested in its implementation. According to him, this project will allow Azerbaijan to turn from a gas producing country into a transit country. "It’s about how Turkmenistan’s participation in this project will be. It’s not just gas reserves, but also who will build this gas pipeline. There must be mutual commitments, after which this project can be implemented,” said Aliyev . Earlier, Natik Aliyev said that two important documents are being prepared, which are planned to be signed this year. The first document is political in nature and expresses support for the Southern Gas Corridor (of which the Trans-Caspian gas pipeline is a component). It will be signed by the presidents of Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan, Ilham Aliyev and Gurbanguly Berdymukhammedov, as well as the head of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso. The second document is an intergovernmental agreement between official Ashgabat and Baku on the construction of the Trans-Caspian gas pipeline, which will define the responsibilities and guarantees of the parties for the project.

In fact, these statements by the Azerbaijani side are very important. The bottom line is that earlier the TCG project rested not only and not so much on Russia's position, as on disagreements among the project participants themselves. The question arose as to how active Azerbaijan would be in supporting the TAG, since de facto this country and Turkmenistan are competitors in the supply of gas to the European market. In fact, it is Baku’s position that is key to the implementation of the Trans-Caspian gas pipeline project and the subsequent transit of Turkmen gas to the Black Sea coast. The current statements of the Minister of Industry and Energy of Azerbaijan actually put an end to these doubts, giving the project a green light. Although, in fairness, we note that another Caspian state represented by Kazakhstan today has not demonstrated a clear position on the project, although there is no “competition problem”, as is the case with Baku.

As for Ukraine, in the case of the implementation of the Trans-Caspian gas pipeline project and our country's participation in the project, Kiev would have fulfilled its old dream, becoming the recipient of Turkmen gas in four to five years (of course, with the planned implementation of the TAG). This would allow Ukraine to get off the Russian “gas needle” and at times reduce the political urgency of the gas issue in the Ukrainian-Russian dialogue. Although in this case, as we see, we are talking not only about the political will of the Ukrainian leadership, but also about many other external factors that Ukraine is often unable to influence.

However, regarding the political will of Kiev, not everything is clear. It is not at all possible that Azarov’s statement about Ukraine’s readiness to take part in the TAG is no more than an attempt to blackmail Russia with the goal of achieving the desired discount on Russian gas. But get to the point, and Kiev will quietly step aside, not wanting to go for a tough confrontation with the Kremlin.

In addition, it is not completely clear where the Ukrainian government will find money to participate in the TAG - in the light of squeezing funds for Yanukovych’s social initiatives, Azarov has every penny in his account.
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76 comments
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  1. YARY
    YARY April 25 2012 07: 12
    +1
    All the same dances around the gas-money bonfire continue! recourse
    1. domokl
      domokl April 25 2012 10: 05
      +1
      We can’t agree with a government that can’t take at least some kind of position ... So, such a government needs to be economically crushed ... Enough talk ...
      1. Pedro
        Pedro April 25 2012 11: 47
        -3
        It’s good to push, because you can lose Ukraine. Gingerbread where and ???
        1. domokl
          domokl April 25 2012 14: 43
          +5
          The rhetorical question is, why does Russia need to be afraid of losing Ukraine, and Ukraine does not need to be afraid of losing Russia?
          Quote: Pedro
          It’s good to push, because you can lose Ukraine. Gingerbread where a ??
          What is important for Ukraine? Shake out more money from Russia without giving anything in return or become a strong country? If you need money, please be kind enough to answer for the bazaar ... But I don’t know how to act as pupils of a kindergarten, I didn’t know, I'm sorry you are welcome...
      2. Scorpion2012
        Scorpion2012 April 25 2012 13: 05
        -5
        This is the result of the "brotherhood" of gas prices for Ukraine.
        1. Kyrgyz
          Kyrgyz April 25 2012 14: 12
          +4
          Quote: Scorpion2012
          This is the result of the "brotherhood" of gas prices for Ukraine.

          There was a time when prices for Ukraine were very low, but the result was the same. IMHO to score and that’s all, let them cough up anyway they don’t have money, there’s nothing to react to, they have their own economy.
          1. Scorpion2012
            Scorpion2012 April 25 2012 14: 43
            +2
            Quote: Kyrgyz
            There was a time when prices for Ukraine were very low, but the result was the same.


            common people suffer. They hit them in the pockets. They have nothing to do with it.
            1. Kyrgyz
              Kyrgyz April 25 2012 16: 57
              +2
              Quote: Scorpion2012
              common people suffer. They hit them in the pockets. They have nothing to do with it.

              low prices will not save them, they will pay the same amount, and the difference between your Akhmetovs will settle
              1. Lermontov
                Lermontov April 25 2012 23: 02
                +1
                They do not give a shit about the people.
                1. Scorpion2012
                  Scorpion2012 April 26 2012 16: 49
                  +1
                  Quote: Lermontov
                  They do not give a shit about the people.

                  Once, you already showed COURAGE, when Kuchma was removed from his post, what prevents you from demolishing it again?

                  Have you watched the documentary Happy People? There, the hunter said one phrase, if you want a good dog, take puppies from good dogs and change often.

                  So you are a comrade, or you should find a descendant of a good politician of Ukrainian nationality or change regularly.

                  There is a third option - tolerate!
                  1. Lermontov
                    Lermontov April 26 2012 20: 53
                    0
                    And where to get puppies and how to change. Power is shared by two groups of aligarchs. can change aligarchs. But this is only the eastern scenario, and then! Here we come again to our sheep.
                    1. Scorpion2012
                      Scorpion2012 April 26 2012 20: 56
                      +1
                      Quote: Lermontov
                      And where to get puppies and how to change.


                      Alas, I am not familiar with Ukrainian politicians. He knew one, no less Tymoshenko, and then they planted him.
                      1. Lermontov
                        Lermontov April 26 2012 21: 22
                        0
                        The tyulka must be planted and shot publicly and the current leadership there too.
                      2. Scorpion2012
                        Scorpion2012 April 26 2012 21: 27
                        +1
                        Why do you hate her so much?
                      3. Lermontov
                        Lermontov April 26 2012 21: 50
                        0
                        I just live in Dnepropetrovsk and know a little more about her. And the fact that she and her companions are doing is incomprehensible. Hit so sit down and blink. Butch is being raised about its content. And why do they miss the bucket about the salaries of prison workers, etc.
              2. Scorpion2012
                Scorpion2012 April 26 2012 16: 44
                +1
                Quote: Kyrgyz
                low prices will not save them,

                Well, the economy of Ukraine is not in the best condition. And reading the local posts, users under the Ukrainian flag, I can’t understand something.

                Half of them, they say, need to bomb the Trans-Caspian pipeline. That is, they chop the branch on which they sit. Their leadership first of all declared the interest of this project. And at the same time they are in GUAM and at the same time it is in their own interests this project, since gas will be supplied to Ukraine. But, the answers are, it is better to survive and feel sorry for existence than to support the one who is going to feed them. At the same time, participants in the same project often buy weapons and various types of equipment from them. It’s strange somehow.

                And the other half, by the way there are much fewer of them, And for the project support is evident.

                The strange thing is life.
                1. Arkan
                  Arkan April 26 2012 18: 39
                  0
                  Scorpion2012,
                  Quote: Scorpion2012
                  The strange thing is life.
                  Nothing strange. On the Internet you can often find provocateurs, lobbyists, spammers ... etc.a they can be under any flag. For some, the informational impact on the masses is one way to achieve your goals. Every serious question needs to be delved into himself, as far as possible. Such is life now. (Living in Ukraine, I first read today that one of the Ukrainians wants to bomb the Trans-Caspian pipeline) smile
                  1. Scorpion2012
                    Scorpion2012 April 26 2012 20: 12
                    -1
                    Quote: Arkan
                    Living in Ukraine, today I first read that one of the Ukrainians wants to bomb the Trans-Caspian pipeline)


                    I was even surprised that you did not put cons in the rating for such a post. I am glad that not envious people live in large numbers in Ukraine. Who are happy for the success of their friends. But not a toad presses and can do nothing but how to put cons on the rating in the hope that maybe Omar will be banned wink or with a large negative rating will not be able to write. They will wait a long time.
                    1. Arkan
                      Arkan April 27 2012 03: 19
                      0
                      Scorpion2012, Envy is the lot of losers, there are plenty of them everywhere, but they do not make the "weather". drinks
        2. domokl
          domokl April 25 2012 14: 53
          0
          Quote: Scorpion2012
          This is the result of the "brotherhood" of gas prices for Ukraine.
          If the state conducts a policy hostile or unacceptable for another state, then the second has the right to dictate its terms or completely refuse the services of the opposite state as such ... Ukrainian prices are compensated by such benefits that my mother does not grieve ... and the price of transit through Ukraine higher than through ANY other country ...
  2. sergo0000
    sergo0000 April 25 2012 07: 13
    +6
    Such a policy of Ukraine will not bring much success. Now, blackmailing Russia is only angry. And the price of gas for it will certainly not decrease! There will be no agreement on the Caspian Sea, there will be no Nabuko.
    1. domokl
      domokl April 25 2012 10: 21
      +3
      Quote: sergo0000
      Such a policy of Ukraine will not bring much success. Russia is now blackmailing-only anger
      It’s true ... It’s not in Ukraine’s interests to swear with Russia now ... Putin is not Medvedev and in the first days of the new reign can hit hard both on the hands and on a stupid head ... so that his stomach does not overflow with food ...
    2. Kievan
      Kievan April 25 2012 12: 50
      0
      Quote: sergo0000
      Such a policy of Ukraine will not bring much success. Now, blackmailing Russia is only angry. And the price of gas for it will certainly not decrease! There will be no agreement on the Caspian Sea, there will be no Nabuko.

      What is such a policy? The Russian Federation is constructing bypass gas pipelines around Ukraine, but doesn’t it mean to others? The price will definitely not decrease anymore, it’s already clear to everyone and you don’t have to steam, and in case of access to the Central Asian countries it may become less. But Ukraine is interested in the Trans-Caspian pipeline, what is there to hide - a few suppliers are always better than one, and even more so like Gazprom. And pipes for the pipeline can also be Ukrainian ...
      1. Scorpion2012
        Scorpion2012 April 25 2012 13: 08
        -1
        If you know a colleague, I’ll tell you one not big secret.
        Russia sells gas to "brotherly" Ukraine at almost European prices. Armenia is much lower.

        And when I spoke about this, many disagreed with me.
        1. Kyrgyz
          Kyrgyz April 25 2012 14: 18
          +3
          Quote: Scorpion2012
          If you know a colleague, I will tell you one not a big secret. Russia sells gas to "brotherly" Ukraine at almost European prices. Armenia is much lower.

          So, the brothers Ukrainians are not averse to shooting Russian brothers on occasion, unlike the Armenians, where does the wallet and the fraternity have to do with it? Germans and Austrians are also brothers, but there seems to be no gifts there
          1. Scorpion2012
            Scorpion2012 April 25 2012 14: 45
            -2
            Quote: Kyrgyz
            So, the brothers Ukrainians are not averse to shooting Russian brothers on occasion, unlike the Armenians, where does the wallet and the fraternity have to do with it? Germans and Austrians are also brothers, but there seems to be no gifts there

            and that is true. Although I do not agree about the Armenians.
      2. Kyrgyz
        Kyrgyz April 25 2012 14: 15
        +3
        Quote: Kievite
        The price will definitely not decrease anymore, it’s already clear to everyone and you don’t have to steam, and in case of access to the Central Asian countries it may become less.

        Will it not become less in vain to let the loot out of the pipe and that’s all, only help the gas producers, in Asia, all the arising volumes are bought up by Russia and China, often according to non-market schemes, is there no free gas that you let through the pipe?
      3. domokl
        domokl April 25 2012 14: 56
        +3
        We have a proverb that will be right now ... A cat scratches on its ridge ... Ukraine wants to be both ours and yours, as a result, got what it received .. Russia does not give loans because the anti-Russian course is being carried out, the West that loans need to be repaid .. A freebie with write-off does not work there .. They will write off only when they take everything to the seed ...
        1. Kievan
          Kievan April 25 2012 15: 45
          -2
          Quote: domokl
          Russia does not give loans because anti-Russian course

          And what is Yanukovych's anti-Russian course? In what does not surrender Ukraine to Russian oligarchs and does not go under the authority of the Kremlin? "You are to blame for the fact that I want to eat." (C)
          Quote: domokl
          The West, because loans need to be repaid .. A freebie with write-off does not work there .. They will write it off only when they take everything to the seed ...

          One might think of Belarus as a union state of the Russian Federation differently. All Russian loans in exchange for privatization. First, the halves of the gas transportation system, now Belavia with MAZ. Until all the goodies get to the Russian oligarchs, Moscow will not calm down. And as you rightly said no write-offs.

          Quote: Kyrgyz
          Will it not become less in vain to let the loot out of the pipe and that’s all, only help the gas producers, in Asia, all the arising volumes are bought up by Russia and China, often according to non-market schemes, is there no free gas that you let through the pipe?

          So manufacturers build, and we can only help with pipes and contracts. And since they themselves are building, then they are directly interested in filling the pipe. From the Caspian to the Black, there is already, it remains only to lay along the Caspian and build a terminal.
          1. Kyrgyz
            Kyrgyz April 25 2012 17: 00
            0
            Quote: Kievite
            and we can only help with pipes and contracts. And since they themselves are building, then they are directly interested in filling the pipe

            and pipes and purchase guarantees that do not need to be financially provided?
      4. Lermontov
        Lermontov April 25 2012 23: 17
        +4
        There is no smell of politics here. pure economy. As far as I know, Ukraine produces gas so much that it is possible to provide a full volume of the population + 30-50% (according to various estimates) industry. Currently, the gas produced by Ukraine in full is sold to people like Russian gas. If deliveries are from Asia, then the price drop for the people WILL NOT. Look at the situation with gasoline. In 2010, the cost of a barrel of oil was about $ 150 gasoline 7-8 UAH per liter. now $ 130 gasoline 11-12grn.l. and where there is politics or people.
        1. Arkan
          Arkan April 26 2012 04: 24
          +2
          Lermontov, "Ukraine sells gas in full to the people like Russian gas" It is sold to the people as Ukrainian, but judging by the number of disadvantages, the big news for Russians is that Ukrainians pay for gas as much (or almost as much) as they do .Raising gas prices for the population (to the level of the Russian one) is an IMF demand, on which Azarov has been laying a bolt for several years .-------- u.tsn.ua/groshi/mvf-trebuet-ot-ukrainy -podnyat-ceny-na-gaz-i-provesti-pensionnuy
          u-reformu.html --------. Otherwise, you are right, prices will not go down, they have nowhere to go down.
          1. Lermontov
            Lermontov April 26 2012 21: 10
            0
            Prices are much lower. The cost of Ukrainian gas is $ 25-30 (please be confused with the cost) The cost of a mixture of Ros and Ukr gas for the population is approximately $ 80. It cost e. energy for the population of 24kop. selling email energy abroad is carried out at a cost of 8 to 12kop. I.D. Count the difference. Another question is that aligarchs want to get more and more. Yanyk with the government crap on the full program. If they raise the price of gas, then in Ukraine there will be hyperinflation and they will not be aware of EURO 2012.
            1. Arkan
              Arkan April 27 2012 03: 14
              0
              LermontovToo superficial view. For example: there are "dumping prices" when a country needs currency and has to sell something abroad below the cost price ... And it is always easier to criticize than to manage. What way out do you see?
              1. Lermontov
                Lermontov April 27 2012 16: 46
                0
                Serega sell 20 years at dumping prices !!!!!.
      5. Antipov
        Antipov April 27 2012 01: 07
        -1
        A few transit routes are always better than one oooooochen not a reliable partner who from time to time blackmail and stupidly steals
        1. Arkan
          Arkan April 27 2012 03: 03
          0
          Antipov, So no one argues with this.
  3. esaul
    esaul April 25 2012 07: 15
    +3
    This is a tangle of passions! Despite the fact that the Republic of Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan seem to have found a common language, there are no fewer problems and questions. Yesterday, for example, Hungary announced its withdrawal from Nabucco, which is seen as evidence that it is far from the agreed position of the interested parties. Well, hosh, you don’t want, and the EU’s position, when laying along the Caspian, will have to be taken into account. Yes, the EU’s great desire is to get rid of fear of the Russian Federation.
    And, as for Ukraine, it will stupidly beg for money and will fall into even greater bondage about a creditor. And the western lender is fierce! ...
    1. domokl
      domokl April 25 2012 10: 08
      0
      Valera, don’t you think that Ukraine is just trying to bluff again now? The West understands perfectly well that Russia is a key player in this region and nothing will be done without her consent ... And consent means participation .. The circle closes lol
      1. Scorpion2012
        Scorpion2012 April 25 2012 13: 10
        -1
        DO NOT AGREE.

        Baku Tbilisi Ceyhan was built without permission? So they will build it. And there, employees of the state depot bark saying that Russia should not get into the affairs of Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan.

        From here I draw conclusions who is behind all this. For this I think a lot of mind is not necessary. Including the course of Ukraine.
        1. Kyrgyz
          Kyrgyz April 25 2012 14: 19
          +1
          Quote: Scorpion2012
          Baku Tbilisi Ceyhan was built without permission? So they will build it.

          and where does Ukraine have money for this? unless Gazprom take a share)))))))))))
          1. Scorpion2012
            Scorpion2012 April 25 2012 14: 45
            +1
            Quote: Kyrgyz
            and where does Ukraine have money for this?

            :(
    2. Antipov
      Antipov April 27 2012 01: 24
      -1
      It’s impossible to ignore Russia's position on the pipeline in the Caspian, it’s a fact! Russia is the largest and strongest player in the Caspian. If it is possible to build NABUCCO ignoring the interests of the Russian Federation (and only partially), then this will not work with the Trans-Caspian pipeline. Russia will be able to block construction under the pretext of, say, ecology. And if the NABUCCO participants are quite limited in their leverage over countries, then we can always put pressure on the remaining 4 states in the Caspian. By the way, and with Nabbuco, not everything is so transparent .... Sometimes it seems that NABUCCO is being built as a result of a deal between the EU and Moscow ... Therefore, the latter does not protest very much
  4. Tersky
    Tersky April 25 2012 07: 19
    +2
    For Azarov, the game of gas thimbles with Russia does not bring dividends, Gazprom is good at counting his money, so he turned his attention to Turkmenistan, maybe mathematics is not there.
    1. JoylyRoger
      JoylyRoger April 25 2012 08: 55
      +1
      Gazprom is good at counting its money

      She just doesn’t know how, erects skyscrapers, orders expensive Western jesters for corporate parties, maintains a team of footballs and more, and at the same time invests very little in gas exploration and production. But this is so, lyrics and offtopic.
      1. Tersky
        Tersky April 25 2012 10: 31
        +1
        Quote: JoylyRoger
        orders expensive Western jesters for corporate parties, contains a team for a foot ball and more

        Good afternoon, colleague! Well, I'm not saying that the benefit of the Russian state is counting wink And so, in fact, another attempt by Ukraine to reduce the cost of gas.
        1. JoylyRoger
          JoylyRoger April 25 2012 10: 34
          -2
          Kind!
          There the picture is a little different, but overall the same as in the country. There were no gas specialists at the top, only managers and PR specialists.
          Therefore so disgusting and consider
  5. Uralm
    Uralm April 25 2012 07: 21
    +2
    If Ukraine has a lot of money. They would invest in something else, more useful for Ukraine and the people. Normally now sitting Tymoshenko. I also wanted a lot
    1. domokl
      domokl April 25 2012 10: 10
      +2
      The fact of the matter is that they don’t even find on social programs .. There is no money ... Therefore, they’re bluffing to get loans and benefits .. Only Russia is not in a hurry, and the West requires first to pay off old loans ...
    2. Tirpitz
      Tirpitz April 25 2012 15: 12
      +2
      You are speaking the truth! good It is necessary to switch to energy-saving technologies, pay subsidies to enterprises or reduce tax rates for those who use renewable energy sources, as is done in Europe, where the share of gas consumption decreases every year. And Azarov generally proposed to transfer all TES to coal as in 20-40. So we don’t have enough gas.
  6. JoylyRoger
    JoylyRoger April 25 2012 07: 25
    -1
    Still, we ourselves should get off the "gas needle". so that the budget is filled not mostly through the sale of raw materials, and then you look and Kiev did not pull construction, and the idea of ​​TKG was completely covered up. And the gas would be useful ourselves, if that
    1. Vito
      Vito April 25 2012 10: 01
      0
      Maybe in truth, there is no silver lining. Well, let’s say our leadership will blow the battle for NABUKO. Maybe then it will begin to develop other sectors of the economy, and not stupidly swing gas and oil right and left. I do not want to feel like a raw materials appendage of the West!
  7. Opertak
    Opertak April 25 2012 07: 26
    +1
    It will be possible to build a TKG only if Russia begins to milk. Otherwise, there will be neither TKG, nor Azerbaijan, nor Turkmenistan - do not go to a fortuneteller.
  8. Leisure
    Leisure April 25 2012 07: 47
    +2
    And what do our Ukrainian friends think about Azarov?
    1. escobar
      escobar April 25 2012 10: 24
      0
      Friends think that if a brother steals and crushes at a price, he will have to go to a neighbor.
      Tymoshenko’s conspiracy with Putin is criminal against the people of Ukraine. Tymoshenko was sure that she would become the head of state and everything would be written to her and Russia (or rather Putin) would write off hundreds of millions of dollars through an enslaving agreement. Now let the creature sit.
      1. El13
        El13 April 25 2012 12: 51
        -1
        Yes, if it weren’t for Yulko, Ukraine would have already been lost for us, but it’s done a dig and you and I have a chance to unite, it’s even more time to win (it is now the most important factor). So she’ll still put a monument ... whether in life ...
        1. Arkan
          Arkan April 25 2012 16: 59
          0
          El13, What do you mean?
          1. El13
            El13 April 25 2012 17: 49
            0
            what it's me about the price
            1. Arkan
              Arkan April 25 2012 18: 27
              +3
              El13,
              In the east and south of Ukraine, the "orange" ones were associated with NATO, the IMF, etc. And after the Yulia Treaty - just with trade in the interests of the country. Before this treaty, Russia had full support among the population in these regions, now you can't say that. Now, Russia's proposal to join the CU is perceived here as a screen behind which there is only the desire of the Russian elite " to privatize something. "Yes, and not only in gas affairs" noted "Julia.
              1. El13
                El13 April 26 2012 01: 09
                0
                The trouble is that the people want (wanted) the unification of the country (Big Russia), but the elites are opposed to this, now, thanks to Yulia, your elites will be forced to join, however, while the people will murmur and blame Russia for everything, but the result is important ...
                1. Arkan
                  Arkan April 26 2012 04: 02
                  0
                  El13Yulia signed this contract just a few days before her removal from her post, and her goal was to complicate the work of those who would come after her. The same goal was pursued by Yushchenko by making Stepan Bandera a hero, and there is no smell of concern for the people here. As for the result, it depends on what Russia needs it. If Russia needs Ukraine in the CU, what does the privatization of Ukrainian enterprises have to do with it? If the goal is to transfer Ukrainian enterprises to Russian oligarchs, what kind of "mutually beneficial and equal partnership" does Putin talk about? So far, the Russian leadership has achieved a result that is exactly the opposite of what was expected and "gloss over" its blunder with lies about the "imminent entry of Ukraine into NATO" in its media. Meanwhile, in Ukraine itself, none of the politicians about NATO has even yapped about for five years, remembering fate. " the political corpse "of Yushchenko and Yulia, who is so beloved by you.
                  1. El13
                    El13 April 26 2012 13: 17
                    0
                    Quote: Arkan
                    only you, Julia

                    well, let’s say, they didn’t guess, I wrote about this specific action that it is a blessing to the people of our two countries ...
                    And about the plants ... yes, spit you, do you own at least one of them? what naf difference who will own if the owners are here, not overseas and even a little patriotic.
                    1. Arkan
                      Arkan April 26 2012 16: 29
                      0
                      El13, Yes, indeed, I don’t own the factories, but the question still remains open: What is more important for Russia - Ukraine in the CU or Ukrainian factories in the hands of its oligarchs? If the second point is more important (and apparently it is), talk about the welfare of the people is idle talk (like talk about Ukraine joining NATO). And which of the oligarchs is more patriotic - you should not even discuss it, it’s not serious. I think Russia should have done wiser - offer Ukraine accession to the CU without any conditions, this would provide at least half of the votes to any presidential candidate who has taken a course towards unification.
                      1. El13
                        El13 April 26 2012 16: 35
                        0
                        And what are these conditions, I lagged behind something, apparently?
                      2. Arkan
                        Arkan April 26 2012 17: 27
                        0
                        El13, Privatization of the most liquid Ukrainian enterprises, transfer of the gas transmission network to Gazprom ...
                      3. El13
                        El13 April 27 2012 00: 37
                        0
                        Is this set as a condition for entry into the vehicle? Transmission transfer - to lower the price - I remember that, I don’t remember the rest ...
                      4. Arkan
                        Arkan April 27 2012 15: 21
                        0
                        El13,
                        Quote: El13
                        Is this set as a condition for entry into the vehicle? Transmission transfer - to lower the price - I remember that, I don’t remember the rest ...

                        This is not surprising, all negotiations on gas between Ukraine and Russia are closed. It’s difficult to find out what they are talking about from the news. Well, I have friends in Akhtyrka ... (the main oil producing region of Ukraine)
                      5. El13
                        El13 April 27 2012 17: 46
                        0
                        I continue to doubt, since joining the CU as a fact would be a huge success for the Russian Federation, for this reason, IMHO, Ukraine would be taken without any preconditions. Another question I cannot answer is what will happen to Ukrainian enterprises after joining the Customs Union.
                      6. Scorpion2012
                        Scorpion2012 April 26 2012 16: 51
                        0
                        Quote: Arkan
                        What is more important for Russia - Ukraine in the CU or Ukrainian factories in the hands of its oligarchs?


                        To find out the answer to this question, just look at the current situation in Armenia.

                        There, almost everything belongs to Russia + its troops + its interests.

                        Is the answer clear?
                      7. Arkan
                        Arkan April 26 2012 17: 28
                        +1
                        Scorpion2012, The fact of the matter is clear. That's Azarov and is busy looking for alternatives.
                      8. Scorpion2012
                        Scorpion2012 April 26 2012 20: 27
                        -1
                        Quote: Arkan
                        Scorpion2012, The fact of the matter is clear. That's Azarov and is busy looking for alternatives.


                        Relations between Ukraine and Azerbaijan deteriorated when Ukraine began to supply arms to Armenia, for GUAM and our friendly relations, this is not acceptable for our relations. If Ukraine pursues a friendly policy, then Azerbaijan is one of those few countries that shares its wealth among friends.

                        Here is the problem you need to solve.



    2. Arkan
      Arkan April 25 2012 16: 47
      -2
      Leisure,
      It is, of course, Russia's business at what price to sell its gas, and, accordingly, whether to buy it from Russia is Ukraine's business. About Azarov, regarding the gas issue, we can say the following - he keeps his word despite the pressure from the IMF, and the gas price for the population is quite acceptable (a friend from St. Petersburg came to me a few days ago, under beer with crayfish, they compared ... - roughly correspond to St. Petersburg ones). The increase in gas prices primarily affects metallurgical (and similar) enterprises (and, accordingly, the budget Ukraine), and if an alternative to Russian gas is real - Rinat will find money "with tovaristchi". It's a shame - now, rivers of slop will again flow from both sides through the media, and each of the interested parties will pass off their hogwash interests as the interests of the state, which will provoke another wave of scandals in the internet between Ukrainians and Russians.
    3. Lermontov
      Lermontov April 25 2012 23: 36
      0
      To the wall put the proffesors.
  9. Ascetic
    Ascetic April 25 2012 08: 08
    +4
    "Ukraine's participation in the Trans-Caspian gas pipeline project is fantastic," Ukrainian political scientist Aleksey Ivanov said.
    "In all likelihood, Ukrainian Prime Minister Azarov just made a good curtsey towards Azerbaijan when he met with Azerbaijani President Aliyev. How serious are the prospects for Ukraine to" wedge "into the Trans-Caspian gas pipeline is a big question. First, you need to understand that this the pipeline will run along the bottom of the Caspian Sea, and all countries whose borders reach its shores, except for Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan, will be against it, since the zones of responsibility in the Caspian waters have not yet been completely delimited, "Ivanov said, in particular. "They will be against Russia, Kazakhstan and Iran. The latter, in particular, because if Azerbaijan extends a pipeline across the Caspian Sea, what will prevent it from providing water area for NATO military facilities? So, the question is very controversial, and Turkmenistan is not the state that will getting too deep in relations with Russia and Iran, "the political scientist continued.
    "The idea of ​​the Trans-Caspian gas pipeline has existed since 1996, and during this time, as they say, the horse has not rolled around yet. This whole story can be a bluff with the aim of making Russia pay more for Turkmen gas. And I doubt that this will result Doubts are not so much that the trans-Caspian branch of the NABUCCO gas pipeline will be extended, but that Ukraine will find opportunities to participate in this project, that is: it will find the necessary funds and be able to transport gas bypassing the territorial waters of Russia, then in Crimea. If this project is destined to be realized, then not less than in five to seven years, "Ivanov said. "Further: who said that the gas obtained in this way will be cheaper than Russian gas? Will Turkmenistan be engaged in charity for Ukraine? Eastern people will never miss their profit, and talks about brotherhood will not give results here. Moreover, the gas pipeline will have to be built through the territories of Georgia and Azerbaijan, where there are problems with separatists. Probably, Ukraine is better off looking at the tit in the hands than the crane in the sky, which is the Trans-Caspian project. Probably, first of all, all these conversations are a way to play on Moscow's nerves, "the expert concluded.
    My webpage

    Some experts believe that Azerbaijan is using the opportunity to strategically bypass Russia across the Caspian in the political bargaining around the Karabakh conflict. It is no coincidence that the head of the socio-political department of the Azerbaijani presidential administration, Ali Hasanov, commenting on the upcoming visit of the Russian Foreign Minister to Baku, said that "Baku expects a lot from Moscow in the settlement of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict." “There is no other country in the world that would have a stronger influence in resolving this conflict. We make this statement, taking into account the approach to regional issues and the Nagorno-Karabakh issue, and the existing pressure on Armenia. Russia's influence on Armenia has no analogues in It can direct this state in the desired direction, it can direct it to constructivism in any issue. In this sense, we expect a lot from Russia. Russia comes up with initiatives, Putin and Medvedev have demonstrated efforts in this direction, and we believe that these efforts will continued in the future, and this year we will observe very serious progress, "he stressed.
    My webpage

    The Trans-Caspian gas pipeline appeared in 1996 as a project alternative to the Russian-Turkish Blue Stream project. This coincided with the announcement by the United States of the Black Sea-Caspian region as a zone of its strategic interests. The Trans-Caspian Consortium was created, which included the companies General Electric, Bechtel National and Shell. In 1998, the US government allocated $ 1,3 million for a feasibility study for the project, which provided for the supply of gas from the eastern fields of Turkmenistan to Turkish Erzurum. It was planned to complete the construction of a gas pipeline through which it was planned to export 16 billion cubic meters of gas to Turkey and 14 billion to European markets annually, in 2002. However, in 2000, work on the project was categorically suspended by the former president Saparmurat Niyazov. In September of that year, the American General Electric and Bechtel National actually withdrew from the project. On September 19, 2000, the PSG announced the closure of its office in Ashgabat, and the management of the Trans-Caspian Consortium was officially transferred to SHELL.
    The project was reanimated in 2006 - after the "gas wars" between Russia and Ukraine. Now, judging by the media, Kazakhstan is also showing interest in the project. Now the main support for the project is provided by the EU, and the USA, as it were, receded into the background. Nevertheless, it was the United States in August 2010 that allocated $ 1,7 million to Azerbaijan to prepare a new feasibility study for the project, taking into account the possibility of Kazakhstan participating in it. With the same funds, it is expected that the feasibility study for the construction of an oil pipeline along the bottom of the Caspian Sea will be updated to connect Kazakh oil to the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline
    Currently, the option of laying a gas pipeline along the route Tengiz (Kazakhstan) - Turkmenbashi (Turkmenistan) - Baku (Azerbaijan) is being considered. Alternatively, it is planned to connect the Trans-Caspian branch with the Baku-Tbilisi-Erzurum gas pipeline, which is one of the main sections of the Nabucco gas pipeline system.
    My webpage
  10. Alexander Romanov
    Alexander Romanov April 25 2012 10: 12
    +4
    Words azarov-pre-election PR and no more. Too big geopolitical risks in the region, it will be difficult to find a psycho investor. Yes, and then we would like to shoot, we would have built it a long time ago, and just chatter
  11. Kievan
    Kievan April 25 2012 12: 30
    +3
    I do not see any problems - the Russian Federation is building flows bypassing Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia, Belarus, along the bottom of the Black and Baltic. Turkmens and Azerbaijanis want to build bypassing the Russian Federation along the bottom of the Caspian. What is the problem? What kind of balance is Lavrov talking about? Pipelines in the Baltic and Black are not violating any regional balances and will not violate the Trans-Caspian. The Russian Federation itself does not want to depend on transit countries, but at the same time it wants to be the only transit country for the Central Asian countries. The policy of double standards on the face.
    1. El13
      El13 April 25 2012 12: 55
      +1
      He was surprised and answered himself. This is politics intertwined with the economy and the protection of their interests, everyone does it. You can call it double standards, but we are just lambs in comparison with some who carry their interests through the okian "under the wing of an airplane about something ..."
    2. Scorpion2012
      Scorpion2012 April 25 2012 13: 15
      0
      If everything bypasses Russia, then in the future they may refuse Russian gas, which is what the comrades from the West are trying to achieve. And this, in turn, does not bode well for the Russian economy.

      It is a policy of double standards.
      1. Kyrgyz
        Kyrgyz April 25 2012 14: 25
        +1
        Quote: Scorpion2012
        If everything bypasses Russia, then in the future they may refuse Russian gas, which is what the comrades from the West are trying to achieve. And this, in turn, does not bode well for the Russian economy.

        laughing by that time we will have run out of gas, and new fields could again become part of Russia. This is too long a game, you can play it if you have serious money and plans, Ukraine does not look like such a player
        1. Scorpion2012
          Scorpion2012 April 26 2012 16: 52
          0
          Quote: Kyrgyz
          Ukraine does not look like such a player

          Alas, I agree with your answer.

          Something is given to me, the 3rd world will begin.
      2. viruskvartirus
        viruskvartirus April 25 2012 14: 25
        +3
        And what does "everything bypassing" mean? Gas is a commodity? Europe is interested in lowering prices, but neither Russia, nor Azerbaijan, nor Turkmenistan are interested in this ... and they will be able to come to an agreement.
        1. Arkan
          Arkan April 25 2012 17: 34
          0
          viruskvartirusAzerbaijan is a completely self-sufficient state "to put pressure" on which Russia has nothing special to do. And any negotiations with it will touch upon the Karabakh problem. Azerbaijan will pursue its policy.
          1. viruskvartirus
            viruskvartirus April 25 2012 17: 51
            +1
            When it comes to good money agree ....
          2. Scorpion2012
            Scorpion2012 April 26 2012 16: 57
            0
            Quote: Arkan
            viruskvartirus, Azerbaijan is a completely self-sufficient state "to put pressure" on which Russia has nothing special to do. And any negotiations with it will touch upon the Karabakh problem. Azerbaijan will pursue its own policy.


            Yes, absolutely right. Since the key to solving the Karabakh problem is in the Kremlin, Azerbaijan has long understood, although hoped that Russia would back down from its 2nd standards, that’s the result. If Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan 100% decided to start this project, then be sure that the whole West is behind this project. And they will do everything from financing, ending with the supply of weapons, WITHOUT LOOKING FOR THAT an embargo is imposed on AZERBAIJAN, weapons are for sale.

            In all these projects, I see that the West is trying in every way to relax Russia.

            Honestly, seeing the current policy of Russia towards Azerbaijan, I am for this project.
            1. Arkan
              Arkan April 26 2012 17: 40
              0
              Scorpion2012, I think it's not the desire to "weaken Russia" but the desire of the West to reduce its dependence on Russian gas. Any consumer is interested in competition among producers and transit countries. Besides, such leverage as gas or the dollar is very useful to have, but very harmful use them for nothing. Unfortunately, the example of America taught Russia nothing.
              1. Scorpion2012
                Scorpion2012 April 26 2012 20: 31
                -1
                Quote: Arkan
                Scorpion2012, I think it's not the desire to "weaken Russia" but the desire of the West to reduce its dependence on Russian gas.


                It goes without saying. They want to overwhelm Russia economically, as they did in the 80s, no matter how strange it looks, the scenario is repeated. Then the truth was done with oil and now gas.

                Quote: Arkan
                Unfortunately, America’s example has not taught Russia anything.

                No need to go far. An example of the 80s they have already forgotten.
    3. Kyrgyz
      Kyrgyz April 25 2012 14: 28
      0
      Quote: Kievite
      The policy of double standards on the face.

      What are children like? is it really incomprehensible that politics is not limited by the number of standards, and the weaker the object of politics the more standards, so historically
      1. Kievan
        Kievan April 25 2012 16: 09
        +2
        Quote: Kyrgyz
        What are children like? is it really incomprehensible that politics is not limited by the number of standards, and the weaker the object of politics the more standards, so historically

        This is exactly what is clear to us. It is incomprehensible to many in the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. There, many fantasize about some kind of mythical friendship and brotherhood with Moscow. On a personal level, it’s clear what could be, but in politics and between state relations it’s definitely not. Ukraine does not have any brothers and sisters. On the left is a predator and on the right is a predator, and the difference between them is only in gastronomic preferences. If you go to the left, you will lose the economy, to the right you will go independence, you have come up with a policy of not going anywhere - multi-vector and non-alignedness is called.
        Who would have thought two or three years ago that Tymoshenko would go to jail for an anti-Ukrainian conspiracy with Putin, Azarov would give birth to a cut in purchases of Russian gas in two or three and would support gas pipelines bypassing the Russian Federation, Yanukovych would declare to Moscow “not to bring us to our knees "and Akhmetov will be the main supporter of European integration. The irony of life.
        1. viruskvartirus
          viruskvartirus April 25 2012 17: 08
          +1
          The irony of life is that elections are coming soon, and apart from talking, "tightening the belt", redistribution and sale of everything else that can be sold ... the current leadership has nothing to show, but Yulia did the job, she agreed, but the conditions are not great ... and these again will promise a second Russian.
          1. Arkan
            Arkan April 25 2012 17: 26
            +1
            viruskvartirusFor her "affairs" (not only gas ones), she needs to be thanked with a bullet in the head.
            1. viruskvartirus
              viruskvartirus April 25 2012 17: 50
              +1
              %) most of our politicians deserve such an inheritance .... I will not argue with you with foam at the mouth, not orange. And here is the truth about how we live ... http: //dengi.ua/clauses/97574_Zarplata_v_Evrope_v_kakih_stranah_vygodno_
              rabotat.html
              1. Arkan
                Arkan April 25 2012 19: 01
                +2
                viruskvartirus,
                smile You have not discovered America. Asians say about Europe: "They have lived the future of their children" (this is about their debts). And official statistics cannot reflect the real situation. For example, yesterday I earned something about 400 tons, while I do not officially work anywhere, and I am not registered as unemployed (why should I?). By the way, on the internet you can also find videos of Italians demonstrating in red T-shirts with the image of Stalin ... This is also true about how they live.
            2. Kyrgyz
              Kyrgyz April 25 2012 17: 58
              +1
              Quote: Arkan
              For her "affairs" (not only gas ones), she needs to be thanked with a bullet in the head.

              I don’t know about other matters, but on gas - there’s not much that she had room for maneuver, I understand that she put the signature, but the contract and price are the result of the work of your Yushchenko and not her if Putin had a Yushchenko approach to Russia would give a good price to Ukraine, it would decently lose credibility. IMHO Tymoshenko or the circus plays with an eye on the laurels of Mandella or just a scapegoat
              1. Arkan
                Arkan April 25 2012 18: 48
                +2
                Kyrgyz, For me, everyone is "orange on the same face." The fact that they quarreled with each other when they came to power does not change their essence. Well, when this contract was signed, the thoughts in eastern Ukraine were something like "Putin is a handsome man, he caught orange for the eggs. And now the pro-Russian president will come .... "Prishol, the contract on the fleet was extended, and Russia has a lot of new" conditions "... And Yulia was engaged not only in gas. If you look at the amounts received by the budget for Soviet tanks sold to Africa, etc., the question will arise - why were they not handed over to scrap metal directly in Ukraine, because it is more profitable ...? smile
        2. Kyrgyz
          Kyrgyz April 25 2012 18: 04
          0
          Quote: Kievite
          It is incomprehensible to many in the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. There, many fantasize about some kind of mythical friendship and brotherhood with Moscow.

          It is unlikely that something is incomprehensible to them, they just understand that while you are neither there, you are nowhere and nobody, but it’s better to work with those with whom you can participate in the market on equal terms, and on whose market you can put your product and not as an Eastern European native with the CX economy wink
          In Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, realists. Ukraine and Russia are industry Ukraine and Europe are some kind of demilitarized marginal buffer from the east
          1. Kievan
            Kievan April 25 2012 18: 46
            +2
            Quote: Kyrgyz
            It is unlikely that something is incomprehensible to them, they just understand that while you are neither there nor there - you are nowhere and nobody, but it’s better to work with those with whom you can participate in the market on equal terms, and on whose market you can put your product and not on the rights of an East European native with the CX economy wink
            In Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, realists. Ukraine and Russia are industry Ukraine and Europe are some kind of demilitarized marginal buffer from the east

            So there is no smell of equality in the CU, the Russian Federation has a decisive voice everywhere and a great many reservations on export within the CU itself. And the oligarchs of the Russian Federation will always be closer to the Kremlin than the Ukrainian ones, and what is the "competition" of companies in the CIS, and so everyone knows, and the conclusions and consequences are obvious. As well as the fact that the form of farming of the oligarchs in the CIS is not much different from the same locust. And the competitors of the Russian Federation are not needed, but we know what Onishchenko is worth. So fantasies about how we will heal the vehicle are mirrored to how we will heal the EU.
            Now let's see how Belarus and Kazakhstan will be able to live in the TS, and there it will already be possible to talk about something substantive. So far, what is happening with Belarus is not at all impressive.
            1. Kyrgyz
              Kyrgyz April 25 2012 19: 50
              +1
              Quote: Kievite
              So it does not smell like equality in the TS, the RF has a decisive voice everywhere and a great many reservations on export within the TS itself.

              Well, by extreme measures, do you consider everything or nothing, the rights of Ukraine in the CU will be much more equal than in the EU, but probably less than in Russia because and the economy is smaller, but if you compare with the EU, then Ukraine’s rights there will be simply insignificant compared to the sharks with which Russia fears proximity. The increase in its role and share in the CU for Ukraine will happen much easier and faster than in the EU, especially in high-tech areas, see how many orders went past Ukraine because of the greed of the oligarchs, because millions are out of work because of this, and Russia is building duplicate production simply because can trust a multi-vector partner, your productions will shrink to the level of several KB and move either to us or to Europe, i.e. and you will not benefit from them.
              As for the oligarchs, of course it is, they will bite and people will suffer, they will not benefit from parasites, but it’s necessary to move somewhere, let them weaken each other in a squabble, and then it will be easier for the state to dump them
              1. Kievan
                Kievan April 25 2012 23: 53
                +3
                Quote: Kyrgyz
                Ukraine’s rights in the CU will be much more equal than in the EU, but probably less than Russia’s. and a smaller economy

                If the EU is all on paper equally and decently, but in the East European countries (except Poland), a real result is visible. That in the TS already immediately written in black and white on paper - a supranational body with the decisive voice of the Russian Federation. How this voice will be involved in conjunction with Onishchenko - you can not go to a fortuneteller. Naturally in favor of the Russian oligarchs.
                Quote: Kyrgyz
                Russia is building duplicate plants simply because it cannot trust a multi-vector partner,

                In military production, this will be independent of multi-vector nature. This policy is based on common sense and a decree of the EBN of 93 years. So everything is obvious here - the Russian Federation will have its own military production duplicating Ukrainian, but with new products. Everything is clear here.
                Quote: Kyrgyz
                As for the oligarchs, of course it is, they will bite and people will suffer, they will not benefit from parasites, but we must move somewhere, let them weaken each other in the bite, maybe and then it will be easier for the state to dump them

                The problem is that the authorities and the oligarchs have long been one as an eagle from the coat of arms of the Russian Federation. In order to knock them out or weaken them in power, it is not the indifferent position of the people that is needed, but this is not even close. Elections do not change anything for you or for us. Our groupings change, but since 99 nothing has changed at all. The showdown with Berezovsky, Gusinsky and Khodorkovsky is just a reconfiguration of the same Yeltsin system, no more. I am personally offended over the past 12-15 years - even then it was obvious that the government was just a fiction covering up boundless corruption and plunder of the Soviet legacy. Then I thought that the problem was in the authorities, now I realized that in the people. Come out even then against the results of the first "privatization" so much could have been saved and changed. The entire operating system of power is based on the deep indifference of the people and not the desire and ability to defend their rights and justice.
                As far as people are willing to endure robbery and not justice, they rob so much
                and nothing more. The mistake of the Maidan was that they were betting on new "leaders", now it is clear that it is necessary to demand that the current government change the rules of the game. As far as it is clear, this is even a small part of the people and whether she has a desire to change these rules is a very big question. "Here, no one cares about everything" (c)
                1. Arkan
                  Arkan April 26 2012 05: 10
                  +1
                  Quote: Kievite
                  The entire current system of power is based on the deep indifference of the people and not the desire and ability to assert their rights and justice.

                  Perhaps this is a distinguishing feature of any capitalist society. It is enough to recall the fact that an 8-hour working day became the norm throughout the world only after the revolution in Russia, and before it, in the same America, demonstrations of workers with similar requirements could have been shot. (May 1, 1886).
                  1. viruskvartirus
                    viruskvartirus April 26 2012 09: 52
                    0
                    Here socialism seldom influenced the view of current capitalism, but right now socialism is in disgrace and let's see what capitalism will turn into ..... but it seems to me there will still be a rematch ....
          2. viruskvartirus
            viruskvartirus April 25 2012 22: 12
            0
            A little supplement-cheap labor for countries that previously joined the EU and from which the population moved to work in the "old" Europe.
  12. viruskvartirus
    viruskvartirus April 25 2012 14: 18
    +5
    Construction is the right thing, it will remove political motives from the issue, but dubious .... the north stream is already working in full, the south stream is closer to implementation and cheaper than Nabuko ... and when it makes sense, it disappears in Nabuko ....