Military Review

“Destructive and Fertile Bronze” (Culture of the Bronze Age - 3)

78
In the previous materials it was already mentioned that in the upper reaches of the Volga and in the region of the Volga-Oka interfluve in the Bronze Age lived tribes who had moved there from the headwaters of the Dnieper. On the places of their settlement are the so-called Fatyanov burial grounds. It is obvious that with them more progressive forms of farming came with them than the local inhabitants of the region before. But the tribes who came here had, apparently, to spend a lot of effort to protect their crops and herds.


“Destructive and Fertile Bronze” (Culture of the Bronze Age - 3)

Ceramics Fatyanovo culture.

Fatyanovo culture representatives were engaged in breeding small and cattle, and also knew and agriculture. Fatyanovtsy knew how to polish and drill their stone battle axes. However, they also knew how to cast axes from bronze and cast them, using ancient Oriental samples as models.


There are many interesting things about Fatyanovo culture.

Moreover, the Fatyanovo culture tribes were familiar with the products of the foundry workers of those tribes that lived to the west of their territory. Thus, in Mytishchi, in the Ivanovo region, in the same burial with the Fatyanovo-type dishes, archaeologists found a bronze bracelet, characteristic in its form for the Unetitsi culture, which was located in Central Europe.


Ceramic vessel. Tashkovskaya culture of the Lower Tobol region. Early Bronze Age.

At the end of II millennium BC. er the tribes living in the Volga regions continued the development of technologies for bronze casting. So, in the burial ground near the Seimas station, near the city of Gorky, remarkable samples of the foundry of that era were found. These were Celtic axes, spearheads that had spread to the Danube, Yenisei and Issyk-Kul, the original form of daggers and equally original combat knives. It can be assumed that the masters who did all this were familiar with the works of the foundry workers from the territory of present-day Hungary and up to the very remote China of the Shang-Yin era.


Seimino-Turbinsky copper idol. Early Bronze Age.

By the way, the territory of modern Hungary already in the early Bronze Age was distinguished by its achievements in the field of bronze casting. Obviously, there were connections with the Crete-Mycenaean culture, which in the middle of the second millennium contributed to the flourishing of the mastery of the production of bronze articles on lands along the middle Danube. Swords, battle axes, tools and decorations, distinguished by a thin engraved pattern, were cast. Obviously, they diverged very well (and widely!).

Agriculture also developed, both farming and cattle breeding. Excavations show that in the second half of the II millennium BC. e., there were settlements (the so-called terramara), from wooden huts, located on the pillars, standing on piles. Such settlements were found in the valleys of the Tisza River, as well as the Sava, Drava and Danube. In the swampy sediments in the valleys of the named rivers, where these terramaras were located, many different objects have survived to our time, allowing us to shed light on many aspects of the lives of those who lived in them. Archaeologists have found a lot of bronze sickles and here - casting molds for their casting. Well, horse horses only prove that here on the Danube, as well as in the Caucasus, horses have already begun to be used for riding. A significant number of imported items - amber from the Baltic states, beads and jewelry from the Eastern Mediterranean regions - speaks of the relatively lively exchange relations of the inhabitants of the Danube settlements for that period.


Reconstruction of houses of culture terramar.

In the valley of the river Po in the Late Bronze Age a similar culture arose. Moreover, an image of a plow was found on the rocks in the Italian Alps, and if so, this means that the ancient farmers who lived in Northern Italy and in the middle Danube, knew the plow and knew how to work the land with its help. It is believed that the Northern Italian and Danube tribes belonged to the same group of Indo-European population of Europe, called Illyrian. It occupied the whole territory between the valley of the Po river and the upper turning of the Danube, and also spread to the western lands of the Balkan Peninsula.


Products of the Early Bronze Age, 2800 - 2300 BC.

In central Europe in Silesia, Saxony and Thuringia, as well as in the Czech Republic and the lands of Lower Austria, and areas north of the Danube in the first half of the second millennium BC. er The tribes of the Unetitsky culture spread. They lived in villages of quadrangular houses that had walls in the style of wattle, but plastered with clay. The grain pits found in the settlements speak of the agriculture that is common among them. In the burials, remains of bones belonging to domestic animals are found, that is, it was customary to put pieces of meat into the grave along with the deceased — that is, they also developed cattle breeding. That is, from an economic point of view, the Unetitsi culture was a typical Central European culture of the Bronze Age. It is known and where they took raw materials for their bronze products. These are copper deposits in the Ore Mountains, the Sudetenland and the Western Beskids. It is interesting that among their products there were also such that allow to speak about the influence on them of the culture of the Eneolithic tribes who lived in the southern Russian steppes. And in pottery, the influence of the Crete-Mycenaean forms is clearly noticeable.


“Nebra's Heavenly Disk” is a disk of bronze in diameter 30, covered with a patina of aquamarine color, with gold inserts representing the Sun, Moon and 32 stars, including the Pleiades constellation. The find is truly unique. By indirect evidence, it is usually attributed to the Unetits culture of Central Europe (c. XVII century BC. E.)


Museum "Disc of Nebra".


"Swords of Nebra". Typical samples weapons Late Bronze Age.

Interestingly, the tribes of the Unetitsky culture gradually occupied all the new territories, however, it also changed. For example, for some reason, its representatives switched to incineration, and the remains of burnt corpses were placed in a clay vessel. At first they were placed in deep earthy graves and laid out around them circles of stones - the magical signs of the sun. But then, for some reason, the burial rite of the “Uniet people” changed, so that the new form of burial even got a special name - “fields of burial urns”. And so gradually in the second half of the II millennium before and. er a new culture was formed here, which was named Pudzhitskaya. Most researchers attribute it to the Proto-Slavonic, that is, they created its tribes, who already spoke the language to which the ancient languages ​​of the Slavic branch of the Indo-European language family belonged.

The archaeological monuments of the Lusatian culture are found on a vast area from the Spree to the Danube, from the Slovak mountains to the Saale and the Vistula. In the north-western territories of Ukraine in the middle of the II millennium BC. er Komarovsky tribes were settled, similar in culture to Lusatians. And here they are the researchers and see the ancestors of the Eastern Slavs. The characteristic monuments of Luditsky and all related cultures include settlements from houses whose walls were made of vertically set pillars with a weave covered with clay or sheathed with hewn boards. Since inside the funerary urns there are a lot of bronze sickles, as well as grain grains and the remains of grains of different cereals, it is obvious that agriculture played a very important role in the life of the Luga tribes. In the peat bogs of present-day Poland, two plows were found that belonged to this culture, that is, they already knew plow farming!


Bronze sickle, 1300-1150 BC culture. (City Museum Budisin, Serbia)

As for social relations, they, as before, were here primitive communal. But now, with the transition to plow farming, the role of the man - the breadwinner of the family, going during the plowing for the bulls, has become noticeably increasing. And this allows us to say that the transition from the ancient matriarchy to patriarchy has already taken place here, and that Luszka and Komarovka cultures were already at the stage of decomposition of the primitive communal system.


Bronze hatchet-chisel of Komarovsky culture.

But studies of the burial mounds located in the west of Central Europe - in Upper Austria, in West Germany and in Holland show that the local tribes were more herders than farmers, as indicated by their burial inventory.

Obviously, this predominantly pastoral culture was abandoned by the tribes that belonged to the immediate predecessors of the tribes belonging to the Germanic branch of the Indo-European language family. Interestingly, archaeological evidence tells us that the level of development of the tribes in Scandinavia in the Bronze Age was higher than the level of the tribes inhabiting the territory of Germany.


All the activities of the people who lived in Bohuslän in the Bronze Age are here before us. Someone plowing a plow on a team of two bulls, someone is hunting, someone is feeding a bull herd ...

Their bronze burial inventory is much more diverse, and among the rock paintings in southern Sweden (for example, in Bohuslän, where most petroglyphs date from the late Bronze Age 1800 - 500 BC), there are even drawings of multi-rooks, sea battles and warriors with long bronze swords in their hands and with round shields. Among them is a drawing depicting plowing plow.


But what we see in this figure, most likely, was of a ritual character!


On board the upper ship are seven people, one of whom is trumpeting in a flowery curved bronze lure. Here stands a man with an ax in his hand, which he raised to the sky in greeting, while others raise the oars to the sky. It is possible that these cave paintings are associated with a funeral rite - people of the Bronze Age believed that the way to the kingdom of death represented sailing on a ship.

We go even further to the West and see that in France in the Bronze Age there lived two culturally different groups of tribes - one continental and northern seaside. The latter glorified themselves by continuing to do what they had been doing during the Eneolithic era — they built gigantic cromlechs — round shrines in plan, dedicated to the Sun, long walkways of menhirs (dug into stone pillars), and built dolmens — huge boxes of stone slabs, preserved in Normandy and Brittany to our days, and in Russia - in our Black Sea region of the Caucasus. Similar monuments are characteristic of the south of England. The archeological data show that all this was built by the agricultural tribes who also raised cattle for plowing. They lived in small villages, and they in turn were grouped around fortified settlements, where people from the neighborhood converged in case of danger. In the mounds around these settlements, ordinary community members were buried. Elders, priests and tribal leaders were buried in dolmens, or special tombs, made of stone and dug into the ground. This culture was called megalithic (literally “big stone”), and it is notable for the fact that its characteristics are about the same everywhere.


An inscription next to almost every such object indicates that it is owned by the French state.


The stone avenue of Le Menec is one of the most famous megalithic monuments in Carnac, France.

The creators of continental cultures left on the territory of France a truly huge number of mounds, which served them for the burial of their departed. In different parts of France, they differ in the design of the burial chambers: often they are real underground dolmens with a gallery leading to them, but there are also burials in the pits, with walls made of massive logs or stones. The tribes that left us these burial mounds have characteristic features in many respects close to the culture of the tribes of the megalithic culture. These tribes can be considered the ancestors of the tribes who spoke the languages ​​of the Celtic branch of the Indo-European family, who began to live here afterwards. It should be noted that the tribes inhabiting France of the Bronze Age were excellent metallurgists, and their products were distinguished by exceptional diversity.


People of that era loved to adorn themselves. Treasure of Blano from the archaeological museum in Dijon, France.


Bronze ware from the archaeological museum in Dijon, France.

The graves show the existence of serious property inequality. In some - a modest burial inventory. Next - lush graves of military leaders, where the inventory is very rich: a few swords, spearheads, helmets and shields, but for ordinary members of the community in the graves of weapons are only axes. A feature of the rich burials of the Bronze Age of France are the finds of beautiful samples of bronze ware. And all of this high culture for its era at the beginning of the first millennium formed the basis of the era of mastering the technique of working iron (the so-called Hallstatt culture).


Hallstatt's Antenna Dagger of Culture from the Archaeological Museum in Dijon, France.

In the south of the Iberian Peninsula, a peculiar El-Argarsky culture developed, the monuments of which are found on the entire eastern coast of the peninsula and then in the southern regions of Spain and Portugal. El-Argar was the center of the production of bronze and pseudo-bronze (an alloy containing arsenic instead of tin) in the early and middle bronze age. The main products of the metallurgy of el-Arghar were knives, halberds, swords, spears and arrowheads, as well as large axes, often found not only in the monuments of El Argar, but throughout Iberia. They were also engaged in the extraction of silver, whereas gold, often used during the period of chalcolite, was used by them much less frequently.


Fuente Alamo is one of the settlements of the Bronze Age in Spain.

Apparently, the main occupation of el-Argharians was mining, that is, copper mining and its subsequent processing by master bronzoliteyschiki. The tribes of the culture of El-Argar had close ties with other neighboring tribes that lived on the Iberian Peninsula, but, moreover, even with those that lived on the distant British Isles.


Bryn-Kelly-Dee. Corridor Tomb, Britain.


Bryn-Kelly-Dee. So it looks from the inside.

Trade with the "British" was particularly important, because from there was tin, necessary for the smelting of bronze. Evidence of a high level of development of metallurgy are found in the homes of el-Argars settlements bronze casting workshops. Products of el-argartsev in large quantities are found in southern and especially in south-western France and up to northern Italy. Moreover, not only bronze articles were found there, but also black glossy ceramic vessels, which, such as, for example, in the Eneolithic era bell-shaped cups, were brought here along with bronze weapons. They were also familiar with the Cretan-Mycenaean culture, that is, the sea connected, and did not divide, these two cultures.

That is, there was a development of inter-tribal trade. Entire caravans loaded with bronze and even ceramics (!) Moved from one settlement to another, mutually beneficial trade deals were made, while people who most likely spoke different languages ​​or dialects of the same language, successfully communicated and control, without which trade is unthinkable, and actively borrowed technological methods and cultural achievements from each other. Indeed, it was the first global civilization of nations that had not yet reached the level of statehood (in the West and the North), whereas in the south the ancient states already existed.


Over time, such copper skins began to be valued literally "worth its weight in gold" ...

But the fate of the same el-Agar is sad. They cut down forests for coal, and this is around 1550 BC. led to environmental disaster and economic collapse. Their culture has disappeared. By its nature, this collapse resembles the “dark ages” of ancient Greece, when the population seemed to remain the same, but for several centuries its culture was thrown back ...

To be continued ...
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  1. XII Legion
    XII Legion 12 March 2018 08: 05
    +19
    I’m familiar with Fatyanovo culture firsthand
    Interesting phenomenon
    Ms.
    1. XII Legion
      XII Legion 12 March 2018 08: 11
      +20
      It’s a pity when you have to judge by funerary structures
      I hope our civilization passes this cup
      1. Cat
        Cat 12 March 2018 11: 50
        +3
        Interesting features of environmental disasters in the considered historical period.
        What a collapse of the Crito-Minoan civilization, what - Fatyanovo culture, a similar situation in northern India, as if someone pulled out a playing card and they collapsed for two or three generations!
        1. kalibr
          12 March 2018 12: 16
          +1
          Read the chic novel by A. Mirer "I have nine lives." Fiction, but just your thoughts ...
          1. Cat
            Cat 12 March 2018 16: 40
            +1
            Thanks for the tip!
        2. Weyland
          Weyland 13 March 2018 21: 00
          +1
          Quote: Kotischa
          That the collapse of the Crito-Minoan civilization, that - Fatyanovo culture, a similar situation in northern India,

          Hello ... Harappa is an unambiguously ecological disaster, but the Fatyanovites fell victim to the expansion of the Finno-Ugric peoples! They died in a stupid way: by the end of their development, the Fatyanovites (like the Greeks of the same era) began to believe that “bow is the weapon of cowards,” and “concrete boys” are fighting hand-to-hand. And much more primitive Finno-Ugrians, who cost little in melee, wanted to spit on these troubles and killed them from bows ...
      2. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 12 March 2018 20: 29
        +2
        "Maybe they’ll dig it out in a thousand years
        In candy wrappers and gummy pieces of coins ... "
        (I. Lagutenko)
    2. Weyland
      Weyland 13 March 2018 21: 06
      +2
      I do not deny it - but the Sejm-Turbino transcultural phenomenon is much more interesting. than Fatyanovo culture!
  2. Albatroz
    Albatroz 12 March 2018 09: 16
    +4
    Approach - consider all Bronze Age cultures
    Very interesting
    The article is saturated
    Thank you for the quality material.
    1. Cat
      Cat 12 March 2018 11: 44
      +3
      It only remains to join the good words of the forum users!
      Vyacheslav Olegovich thanks!
      1. kalibr
        12 March 2018 12: 14
        +2
        Very nice! Thanks to you, too. The most interesting thing is that the work on collecting all these materials has begun ... in 1975! I can’t believe it myself! And it went on continuously all this time. But he finally became interested in the topic only when he saw some of all this himself ... I hope that sooner or later it will be possible to make a book about the Bronze Age.
        1. Cat
          Cat 12 March 2018 16: 44
          +2
          Quote: kalibr
          Very nice! Thanks to you, too. The most interesting thing is that the work on collecting all these materials has begun ... in 1975! I can’t believe it myself! And it went on continuously all this time. But he finally became interested in the topic only when he saw some of all this himself ... I hope that sooner or later it will be possible to make a book about the Bronze Age.

          !!! 1975 !!! Vyacheslav Olegovich, you successfully guessed it literally three years before my birth!
          1. kalibr
            12 March 2018 22: 53
            0
            In the year you were born, my daughter was born ...
  3. Luga
    Luga 12 March 2018 14: 11
    +3
    Thanks to the author, as always informative and interesting. smile
    The only drawback for me is the lack of the ability to cling to something and criticize, but this is because I am familiar with the topic of the article, as it were, to put it mildly, superficially. smile
    It is necessary to somehow revive the discussion, provoke the discussion ...
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, but doesn’t it seem to you that the disappearance of El-Argars culture cannot be explained solely by technogenic factors, they say, they themselves burned their forests and therefore disappeared ... Who will believe this?
    I suggest colleagues to build their versions of this event. By voting with "asterisks" we will choose the best and, thereby, make a significant contribution to science. smile
    My version.
    When reading the dating of the El-Argars culture, historians made a significant mistake: dating should be read in reverse reading and thus we get e.d. at. 0051 - 0081, i.e., the era of our days, 51 - 81. As you can see, the culture lasted only thirty years and its end fell on the reign of Emperor Titus Flavius, who, as you know, was named Titus Kozelsky in Russia and participated in the battle at the Shishevsky forest, during which one Tagay was defeated. According to modern research from the University of Oklahoma (Prof. J.J. Edison-Smith), the location of the Shishevsky forest is localized between 60 gr. east longitude and 60 gr. Western longitude, in the northern hemisphere, which is consistent with the location of finds of the El Argars culture. Thus, we can conclude that during the battle between the squad of Titus Flavius ​​Kozelsky and Tagay El Argarsky near the Shishevsky forest, the latter was trodden by the cavalry of the opposing sides, rushing back and forth along it, after which it accidentally caught fire from an unsettled match. Since there was no one to extinguish - all the participants in the battle either died or rode away, the fire spread to the culture and it burned down.
    wassat laughing
    Sorry for the flood, colleagues, I just really want to go down in history ... recourse
    1. Curious
      Curious 12 March 2018 15: 31
      +4
      A laudable desire, of course. But why choose the input through the output? Or do normal heroes always go around?
      1. Luga
        Luga 12 March 2018 15: 39
        +2
        Quote: Curious
        But why choose the input through the output?

        laughing
        The end justifies not only the means, but also the entry point!
        Excuse me, Viktor Nikolaevich, today it’s impossible to speak seriously with me. smile
        Do you want to give birth to some other historical concept on a given topic?
      2. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 12 March 2018 20: 51
        +5
        Viktor Nikolaevich, this is a trend! "Per rektum in historia!" The simpsons rule! That covered Michael. (Michael, forgive me for God's sake!)
    2. Mikado
      Mikado 12 March 2018 15: 33
      +5
      Kozelsky

      Michael, I'm sorry, I’ll correct it. hi You use tracing paper - reverse translation of the name from English into Russian. stop Initially, in Old Slavic - Kozulsky. No offense! drinks again, the origin of this family name in ancient sources comes from reading the ancient Roman name Julius. hi
      1. kalibr
        12 March 2018 16: 12
        +4
        You know this amazingly, Mr. Luga! In terms of ideas ... It is quite possible to write and publish a book of "racers" - A BOOK OF HISTORICAL REDDERS - to insert briefly all the concepts of reptilians, fomenkoids, "conspirators" and subversives - here you do not need to look for them in VO - and consistently, like you it showed ... DEVELOP. In the popular science, semi-artistic and artistic terms. It will be very unusual. Nonsense. Nonsense. And most importantly ... only the brain is straining, the source base is at hand and there is no particular need to strain, if only it would be unusual and funny.
        1. Luga
          Luga 12 March 2018 17: 25
          +4
          Quote: kalibr
          It is possible to write and publish a book "racers"

          Scary ... How not to try to make it funny, but still half will think that seriously. And when my time comes and the Valkyrie comes after me, looks me in the eye, takes a copy of this book from the neckline and asks: "Did you write?" - what will I answer? Oh, I feel that eternal samsara awaits me for such a thing ... Or, after all, take a chance?
          1. Mikado
            Mikado 12 March 2018 17: 39
            +5
            I thought, from the neckline usually "Siseido" (a brand so Japanese!) get. wink and with the book she will come to others - Fomenko, Samsonov and other lovers of the "alternative." and.. kaaak give on the head!angry Write! If you have talent, it's worthless to bury it in the ground. hi
          2. Curious
            Curious 12 March 2018 17: 54
            +5
            "... the Valkyrie will fly after me ..."
            There will be no Valkyries.
            Those who are engaged in such creative work should not wait for the aliases, since Tür does not deal with such. So patronizes Ata. So it’s worth waiting for the arrival of addiction with a box of buprenorphine in one hand and a neurostimulator for deep brain stimulation in another.
            And not samsara is waiting for such clients, but Gugnir in one place, so that for sure there are no reincarnations.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 12 March 2018 20: 59
              +3
              Hard! Understood half, but tough! I read on the topic, for sinful ...
          3. kalibr
            12 March 2018 18: 14
            +3
            I would take a chance! And I’m even ready to help you - A- with a publishing house, B - an artist who paints expertly at such delusional books.
            1. Luga
              Luga 12 March 2018 18: 55
              +3
              Quote: kalibr
              I would take a chance!

              Quote: Curious
              And not samsara is waiting for such clients, but Gugnir in one place, so that for sure there are no reincarnations.

              laughing laughing laughing
              Oh-ho-ho ... What should I do? Two respected people ...
              Okay, I’m going to dine from the grail, in the sense of a decanter, if at night Gugnir and Mölnir with their companion Kondraty visit, though it will not be so scary ...
              1. Mikado
                Mikado 12 March 2018 19: 26
                +3
                Michael, there are two types of motivation - achievement or avoidance of responsibility. Therefore, you do not think in that category, there are all sorts of loafers there and so on .. stop And you need to think like a character in one famous musical:
                "When the Nobel is rightfully given to me,
                My spiteful critics are silent
                !" fellow wink Share 1% for good advice. drinks
                1. Curious
                  Curious 12 March 2018 21: 10
                  +3
                  Dreaming of a "Nobel" in his hands, do not forget about Goognir lower back.
                  1. Mikado
                    Mikado 12 March 2018 21: 15
                    +2
                    I will ask! wink drinks Do you like the Scandinavian epic - write to your health! laughing This we have not yet considered Perun! fellow Although about Indian culture you also do well .... what (I'm talking about samsara, not about what you thought) drinks
                    1. Curious
                      Curious 12 March 2018 21: 23
                      +2
                      Perun and Thor are very similar. Like Indra among the Indians. You do not like Goognir, prefer a national, Slavic flavor, get the lilac-blue lightning of Perun. The result is the same.
                      1. Mikado
                        Mikado 12 March 2018 22: 14
                        +1
                        You do not like Goognir, prefer a national, Slavic flavor, get the lilac-blue lightning of Perun. The result is the same.

                        Victor Nikolaevich, if my memory serves me, Perun was initially not even a very Slavic god. Initially, he was Perkunas, and came from Lithuania. And it cannot be said that at the end of paganism it was too popular among the population - it required human casualties. Moreover, due to two cases of bloodshed, in principle, faith was changed. The first was when pagan warriors slaughtered their Christian comrades on the island of Berezan (and for some reason then the Pechenegs waited for Svyatoslav at the thresholds), and the second - the father and son of the Vikings who died in Kiev. I remember as a keepsake.
          4. kalibr
            13 March 2018 21: 32
            +1
            Incidentally, this is quite serious. What half thinks doesn't matter. It is important what the other half thinks. By the way, if you want, I’m ready to write a FOREWORD from, so to speak, a person of science. You write FROM THE AUTHOR - I am the preface. I will write a good introduction ...
      2. Luga
        Luga 12 March 2018 17: 39
        +3
        I confess, mea culpa, I overlooked ... It’s obvious that KozYulsky means “Julia’s business”, well, like “goat nostra”. And so Titus Flavius ​​of Koziulsky belonged to the house of Julius!
        Thank you, Nikolai, for the timely and scientifically substantiated criticism, with her my theory finally found her grace, harmony and completeness. drinks
        1. Mikado
          Mikado 12 March 2018 18: 07
          +3
          what are you, empty, Michael! hi This is a very common typo. It was just that when William Ockham made the first Old English translation of a copy of the Nizhne-Lopukhinsky chronicle, which came to Europe as the dowry of Anna Yaroslavna, and which, in turn, he removed from Paris after teaching his course in theology and philosophy, he made a typo. But English historians, unfortunately, did not study this document so much "live", and a typo was duplicated. It became clear only in 2013, at the time of a biased analysis of the church archives of Surrey. Occam was fortunate enough to have left this document in England when he was called to the papal court in Avignon in 1322, otherwise the information could have been irretrievably lost. hi for he himself caused the pope only irritation with his philosophical reasoning, and then the pope did not differ in love for science - for history, in particular. request
          1. Cat
            Cat 12 March 2018 21: 06
            +4
            The intermarriage even turned out very well, but Mikhail never noticed that Vyacheslav Olegovich had already made a gift to him in the article "immortalizing" his name, mentioning the "Luga community"!
            Perhaps even the whole approach of studying and considering in the article “bronzes” from east to west, and not vice versa, was a small gift to Mikhail. I hope in the next article, Vyacheslav Olegovich, look at the Urals, thereby making a gift to your Pokornum "Koshak" !!! Although, if the author has other plans, we will not be offended.
            Sincerely, Kitty!
            1. Mikado
              Mikado 12 March 2018 21: 11
              +4
              literally a minute ahead, Vladislav. I just wanted to write under your comment, saying, "GlavKot is gone, but here the most interesting has begun." yes but no! wink I join the "waiting for peeking beyond the Urals." Perhaps, and look. Not all of him write about the ancient Greeks. hi we still have the Great Wall of China!
            2. Luga
              Luga 12 March 2018 22: 28
              +2
              Quote: Kotischa
              "immortalizing" his surname, mentioning the "Luga community"!

              "Luga" is not a surname, just Mr. Luga of the Leningrad Region is my small homeland, so I have every right to such a pseudonym. And the culture is Luzhitsa. Unfortunately (or fortunately), our Luga culture in the ancient cultural layers left no traces. smile
              1. Mikado
                Mikado 12 March 2018 22: 59
                +2
                our Luga culture in ancient cultural layers left no traces.

                But she left a mark in the 41st year on the German gene pool, and a monument to partisan glory at the entrance to the city in the newest layer. soldier
    3. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 12 March 2018 21: 17
      +5
      Bravo, Michael! Just bravo !!! Congratulations from your competitor.
      1. Luga
        Luga 12 March 2018 22: 14
        +3
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        Bravo, Michael! Just bravo !!! Congratulations from your competitor.

        Thank you yes
        In such a case, there are no competitors, there are colleagues, or as patients with the same diagnosis are called, doctors probably have a special term. Competition if only for a bunk at the window in a place of worship.
        Let's make history together! hi
  4. alatanas
    alatanas 12 March 2018 18: 11
    +3
    About the oldest processed gold can be read here:
    http://ancient-treasure.info/category/ancient-civ
    ilizations-treasures
    1. Curious
      Curious 12 March 2018 18: 45
      +3
      Is there a link to serious resources?
      1. alatanas
        alatanas 13 March 2018 11: 26
        +1
        https://historymuseum.org/en/
        http://archaeologyinbulgaria.com/category/prehist
        ory /
        www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr35k7Q3WSk
  5. Operator
    Operator 12 March 2018 18: 40
    +2
    "in the upper reaches of the Volga and in the area of ​​the Volga-Oksk interfluve in the Bronze Age lived tribes who moved there from the upper reaches of the Dnieper. The so-called Fatyanovo burial grounds are located on the places of their settlement. Obviously, more progressive forms of farming came to them with forest areas of the Upper Volga. than the locals of the region had before. But the tribes who came here apparently had to spend a lot of energy to protect their crops and herds, "both of them were Aryans, and those who came from the Dnieper were at a higher level of civilization (agricultural cattle breeding with bronze tools compared to the local culture of hunter-gatherers with stone and bone tools).

    “These were Celtic axes, spearheads that spread to the Danube, Yenisei and Issyk-Kul, original daggers and similarly original combat knives. It can be assumed that the craftsmen who made all this were familiar with the work of casters from the territory of present-day Hungary and up to to the very distant China of the Shang-Yin era, "exactly the opposite: nomadic arias from Eastern Europe (including the future Hungary) introduced Asia (including China) to their bronze foundry products.
    1. Operator
      Operator 12 March 2018 18: 59
      +2
      “its tribes created, which already spoke a language that belonged to the ancient languages ​​of the Slavic branch of the Indo-European language family,” - the Slavic language is not a branch, but a trunk from the Sanskrit root (the language of our ancestors of the Aryans).

      The branches of the trunk are all other languages ​​of the Indo-European language family (Farsi, Hindi, Romance and Germanic languages), which are spoken by the Northern Semites, Dravids, Celts, and Northern Illyrians assimilated by the Aryans.
    2. Weyland
      Weyland 13 March 2018 21: 12
      +1
      Quote: Operator
      exactly the opposite: nomadic arias from Eastern Europe (including future Hungary) introduced Asia (including China) to their bronze foundry products.

      Quite the opposite, but hardly arias: the Sejm-Turbino tribes from Altai spread west to Moldova, and east to China (introducing both Moldovans and Chinese with high-tech foundry) - but only in the forest zone, and the Aryans in that era inhabited the steppe and forest-steppe - there the Seimynts did not meddle, there was not enough strength against the Aryans!
      1. Operator
        Operator 13 March 2018 21: 38
        +1
        The first graves of the bones of the carriers of the Aryan R1a were found:
        - in Altai dating from 22-24 thousand years ago;
        - in the Balkans with dating 12 thousand years ago;
        - on the Central Russian Plain and the Black Sea 10 thousand years ago;
        - on the Karelian Isthmus 9 thousand years ago;
        - in Western Europe 6 thousand years ago;
        - in the Volga region and in the Northern Urals 5 thousand years ago;
        - in the Southern Urals 4 thousand years ago;
        - in Central Asia, India, Asia Minor, the Iranian Highlands and Manchuria 3,5 thousand years ago.

        Moreover, at the indicated times, the Aryans did not share the territory of settlement with anyone, with the exception of Western Europe, where they settled alternately with the Illyrians (while the Arians accounted for about a quarter of the population of Western Europe), and the above regions of Asia, where they ranged from 5 to 15 percent of the population.

        The Sejm-Turbino tribes, like any other (except for the Celts), arias on h.yu rotated, because they were above them at the civilizational level of development, the first of the people inventing horse-drawn vehicles and war chariots, as well as borrowing metallurgical technologies from the Caucasus.

        Moreover, the nomadic arias from the northern Black Sea region were still those “thugs” with an awl in the ass - during their migrations to Asia, they completely reformatted not only the northern Semites, but the huge Dravidian India, creating a unique state, divided into varns - colors ( castes according to skin color, of course). White Aryan varnas still dominate in Indian society, mainly consisting of black Dravidian varnas.

        Before that, the Aryans suffered a crushing defeat in Western Europe from the Celts in the 3rd millennium BC. (the so-called era of broken skulls) and were driven into Eastern Europe to their fellow tribesmen. A partial justification for the defeat is their auxiliary role in repelling the aggressors - the first violin was played by (unsuccessfully) Aborigines - Illyrians, who were mostly exterminated, and in the minority ousted to the Scandinavian Peninsula and Eastern Europe along with Western European Arians.
        1. Weyland
          Weyland 13 March 2018 22: 41
          +1
          Quote: Operator
          The Sejm-Turbino tribes, like any other (with the exception of the Celts), arias on h.

          I wouldn’t say that the Aryans simply didn’t need this taiga, they weren’t in the Great Steppe either (I recall, it stretches from Vienna to Beijing)
  6. Operator
    Operator 12 March 2018 22: 27
    +5
    Mikado,
    Arias (future Slavs) came to the Baltic states 10 thousand years ago, Finno-Ugrians (future Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Karelians and Finns) - 3,5 thousand years ago. Half of the Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians are the descendants of the Aryans, half are the descendants of the Finno-Ugrians.

    The Mestizos adopted the language and pantheon of pagan gods from the Aryans. Therefore, Perun is primary, and Perkunas is secondary.
    1. Mikado
      Mikado 12 March 2018 22: 52
      +2
      Andrey, I’m not ready to say which of them was the first to live, so I took advantage of Gumilyov. But, if I’m not mistaken, Perun was sometimes portrayed with a spear on a horse, and this image was transferred to the image of George the Victorious (forgive me, Lord!). I could be wrong! hi
      I’m more interested in the origin of the word bear. As I understand it, this word is a replacement for the concept of "one who cannot be called." In Latin, German, Swedish, English (and even Turkish!) Languages, the bear is called the word "ber" or similar. In Spanish, French, Romanian - "ursus" and similar. In Lithuanian, Latvian - lokis, latsis. Finnish and Estonian are unique, they have “kara". But why do we have the word "den"? "Ber's Lair"? Borrowing from German language?
      1. Curious
        Curious 12 March 2018 23: 27
        +3
        In St. Petersburg, at St. Petersburg State University, in the philology department, the head of the Department of Classical Philology was Yuri Vladimirovich Otkupshchikov, an outstanding specialist in the field of etymological analysis, Indo-European studies, Baltic, Slavic and classical languages.
        Find his book "Trailers Yu.V. Essays on the Etymology. St. Petersburg: Publishing House of St. Petersburg University, 2001." An interesting thing. There, on page 28, the "bear" is disassembled in great detail.
        "But why do we have the word" den "?" Den Ber "? Borrowing from German languages?"
        This is how the passage of this word "folk etymology" is interpreted.
        "According to science", in the Pre-Slavic language there was the word "birlo" meaning "garbage", "dirt". In a somewhat modified form, it is preserved in the Polish language: “barlog” is “manure”, “mud”; there is a similar word in Serbo-Croatian - “brlog” - “pork or boar rookery” - just what the lair represents after hibernation.
        1. Mikado
          Mikado 12 March 2018 23: 35
          +3
          During these years, my first love studied at the faculty of philology. After that, the word "philology" causes me to reject. True, the amused German topless grandmothers cause more rejection .... belay
          By the way, Shirokorad wrote interesting things. Say, the building of the Twelve Colleges, which houses one of the buildings of St. Petersburg State University, was supposed to be located along the Neva, and be one of the "facades" of the new city. But it came across only because Aleksashka built his Menshikov Palace on the waterfront, and there was not enough space to accommodate the building! request
          1. Curious
            Curious 12 March 2018 23: 37
            +3
            Did you first fall in love in 1971?
            1. Mikado
              Mikado 12 March 2018 23: 40
              +3
              the book you cited dates back to 2001. We have already parted for a year. hi Are you hurt? laughing I went to write a script! wink drinks about the metallurgist-popadanets .... drinks
              1. Curious
                Curious 12 March 2018 23: 53
                +3
                So this is a book. And he was in charge of the department from 1971 to 1992.
                1. Mikado
                  Mikado 12 March 2018 23: 55
                  +2
                  Sorry, the Emperor of All Japan and the other Kuriles was guided by the date given by you! hi
          2. Curious
            Curious 12 March 2018 23: 48
            +3
            Shirokokrad in his repertoire.
            This legend has no basis. Firstly, for chronological reasons. The Menshikov Palace began to be built in 1710, when no colleges were discussed. Secondly, because the building of the Twelve Colleges, which began to be built in 1722, was specially turned with its main facade to the central square of Vasilyevsky Island, which was to be the center of the young capital, as conceived by Peter the Great. Subsequently, this territory was built up.
            Interestingly, there is a topic on which this compiler would not lie.
            1. Mikado
              Mikado 12 March 2018 23: 53
              +3
              Interestingly, there is a topic on which this compiler would not lie.

              if only the guns of Grabin. what Alexander Borisovich is generally a great original, but I am sorry that he is not among the full-time authors of VO. That would be a discussion! good to be honest, Viktor Nikolaevich, I am generally attracted to original people. We and the company got close to match! drinks
              1. Curious
                Curious 13 March 2018 00: 12
                +4
                This, as you say, original, has too high self-esteem, which the site can not afford. But this is for the better. I imagine with great difficulty what Shirokorad could turn history into if I wrote daily on an article for a site. True, he could for years rewrite his books, which he has under seventy. But this is hack at all.
                1. Mikado
                  Mikado 13 March 2018 00: 19
                  +3
                  the main thing is that he has his own point of view. Right-wrong is not the point. If the story is wrong, then Samsonov will be thrown out for sure, because all the clicks will be Alexander Borisovich, and his tongue - do not put a finger in his mouth. His articles on artillery are literate, which also adds pluses (do not forget, he published articles on artillery in the same issues as Vyacheslav Olegovich. hi It is on the topic of artillery! stop Shirokorad’s opinion about global and not very history we do not take into account! wink ).
                  I am not saying that this is all right. But ... it would be interesting! good Again, it would be interesting for you personally to debate - within the reasonable, of course!drinks
                  1. Curious
                    Curious 13 March 2018 00: 36
                    +2
                    "... within reason, of course!"
                    I mean - do not beat below the belt?
                    1. Mikado
                      Mikado 13 March 2018 00: 44
                      +3
                      and do not drag a beard! wink His beard is the main thing. He even in the book "Northern Wars of Russia" condemned Peter shaving beards laughing apparently sacred is a thing! fellow I understand him perfectly! wink
                      Somehow they called me from one important customer: they say, today, the new chief of the department will come to get acquainted. I, in response: "Anastasia, would you have warned you?" request
                      The door opens ... A smiling, colorful BEARD walks in., of my height, the complexion is also similar in something, but the beard ..... mmm ... I will envy! good and I immediately realized that two cheerful bearded men would quickly find a common language! Pah-pah-pah ... drinks
                      1. Curious
                        Curious 13 March 2018 00: 54
                        +2
                        If he loves his beard so much, he hopes to get into the kingdom of heaven. Well, no beard is allowed there.
      2. Operator
        Operator 13 March 2018 00: 00
        +2
        Quote: Mikado
        Andrey, I’m not ready to say which of them was the first to live, so I took advantage of Gumilyov. But, if I’m not mistaken, Perun was sometimes portrayed with a spear on a horse, and this image was transferred to the image of St. George the Victorious

        Gumilyov’s phthopka (a joke), they rule the DNA of bone remains and the radiocarbon dating method.

        The horseman on a horse with a spear in his hand ("spearman") is the coat of arms of the Vendian-Rus tribe, the neighbors of future Lithuanians from the 6th to the 9th century AD in the Porus region (today's Kaliningrad region of the Russian Federation).

        After the unification of the East Slavic tribes under the rule of the Rurik dynasty, the coat of arms of the Rus became the family coat of arms of the Rurik. The trident (Khazar, as ill-wishers say) is nothing more than the coat of arms of the city of Kiev and the local tribe of the meadow.

        After the Russians left for Ladoga, the coat of arms “spearman” was exploited for several hundred years by their former neighbors Lithuanians and Rurikovich, until it was finally “privatized” by the Grand Dukes of Moscow, incl. in the form of minting Moscow money - cents.

        As for linguistics, this is to Curious'y.

        It should be understood that all existing European languages ​​are descended from Sanskrit (naturally, with the exception of the Basque, Albanian, Finno-Ugric and Turkic). The rest of the European languages ​​(with the exception of Slavic) are a hybrid of Sanskrit with Basque (Celtic), Illyrian (Scandinavian) and Hamitic (Greeks).

        The closest to Sanskrit is Latin - which was formed under the influence of the Trojans (Northern Semites, assimilated by the Mitannian Aryans) at the end of the 1st millennium BC. after their flight from under Troy to the region of Etruria north of the future of Rome.

        Only Italian (Latin heir) from European in terms of vocabulary and phonetics is closest to Russian (Sanskrit heir) - back, moon, nova, etc.

        It is advisable to proceed from this with linguistic studies "honey knows, lair."
        1. Mikado
          Mikado 13 March 2018 00: 04
          +3
          thanks, grateful! drinks
        2. Weyland
          Weyland 13 March 2018 21: 18
          +1
          Quote: Operator
          Closest to Sanskrit is Latin

          of European languages, the closest to Sanskrit is Lithuanian, in 2nd place - Slavic!
      3. Weyland
        Weyland 13 March 2018 21: 25
        +1
        Quote: Mikado
        But why do we have the word "den"? "Ber's Lair"? Borrowing from German language?

        no. Both “bear” and “ber” (brown) are a substitute for the concept of “one who cannot be called.” And the original form is “rksas”, hence “ursus”, and “arctos”, and “arthur”, and “hirs” (taj.), And “arshak” (Parthians). And the “den” - from “berlo” (manure) - originally it was a boar’s bed, not a bear (and in Serbian - to this day!)
    2. Weyland
      Weyland 13 March 2018 21: 14
      +1
      Quote: Operator
      Perun is primary, and Perkunas is secondary.

      primary Hittite Pierva, which was borrowed by both those and others!
  7. Curious
    Curious 12 March 2018 22: 52
    +3
    Mikado,
    Yes, you should seriously work on the topic. Not in vain Vyacheslav Olegovich recommends referring to serious literature. To start.

    Page 101-111
    1. Curious
      Curious 12 March 2018 22: 53
      +2
      And it is still possible.

      From and to.
  8. Mikado
    Mikado 13 March 2018 00: 57
    +1
    Curious,
    If he loves his beard so much, he hopes to get into the kingdom of heaven. Well, no beard is allowed there.

    But what about the ladies? belay
    1. Curious
      Curious 13 March 2018 01: 10
      +2
      It's about peasants. Also, by the way, the topic for the article. Something like "Beard. From Australopithecus to Shirokorad."
      1. Mikado
        Mikado 13 March 2018 12: 39
        +1
        well, a beard is part of the culture of many nations. Now it is also considered fashionable. Why not to Leo Tolstoy? fellow
        1. Curious
          Curious 13 March 2018 13: 50
          +1
          From the origins to today. Tolstoy between.
          1. Mikado
            Mikado 13 March 2018 13: 56
            +1
            Tolstoy had a bigger beard! wink but in general the topic would be interesting. When writing, you could insert a bunch of pictures and inserts from the books of Shirokorad.
            1. Curious
              Curious 13 March 2018 14: 17
              +1
              "insertions from the books of Shirokorad" is in an article on the topic "How to write historical books."
              1. Mikado
                Mikado 13 March 2018 14: 51
                +2
                he turns out quite emotionally. Catherine I deserved such epithets ... which can not be pronounced on the site. For ban severe and merciless.
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 13 March 2018 23: 06
                  +2
                  I summarize. Not an apologist, but a furry muzzle. Why? Yes, it's just that the shaving process is freezing me! Absolutely! Totally!
                  1. Mikado
                    Mikado 13 March 2018 23: 59
                    +2
                    I, too, had never been an apologist, and shaved every morning. And bored ... drinks