Military Review

Nagant brothers revolvers: Emile and Leon

89
From the comments on the article about the German silent revolver PDSR 3, it turned out that people remember only one of the Nagan brothers, Leon. Emil was forgotten, although it was thanks to his work that the famous revolver M1895 appeared. We will try to correct this injustice, and at the same time we will try to trace the whole path of development of Nagan brothers' revolvers, from the first models to the last most massive and successful.


From the repair of industrial equipment to the first revolver

In 1859, the eldest of the brothers, Emil, suggested that the youngest, Leon, organize an enterprise whose specialization would be the repair and manufacture of industrial equipment. Despite the very good progress of the young company of the Nagan brothers, the specialty gradually changed, and after a short time a larger amount of work was connected with the repair of revolvers, rifles and rifles from other manufacturers.

Nagant brothers revolvers: Emile and Leon


Of course, that only one repair could not satisfy the young designers. Seeing the imperfection of the designs of those samples weaponsthat fell into their hands, the brothers began to develop their own weapons, concentrating on rifles. It was then that the Nagan brothers' company got its name "Fabrique d'Armes Emile et Leon Nagant". Despite the fact that Nagan brothers' rifles were in many ways simpler and cheaper to manufacture, the designers could not offer anything fundamentally new in the market. In order to win a place among weapon companies with well-known names, it was necessary to invent something that would be superior in its characteristics to other samples. Designers even enlisted the support of Samuel Remington: visiting their production, he praised both the enterprise itself and the designers' developments, signing a contract with them to manufacture their rifles and carbines in Europe. With the permission of the American designer, the Nagant brothers slightly modernized the bolt of his weapon, and the Remington-Nagant rifle with a bolt was adopted by the Luxembourg Army.

The first recognized revolver Nagant M1878

This small victory for the designers gave them the opportunity to declare themselves as full gunsmiths, and soon they had developed a primitive, but outrageously cheap double-barreled gun for the Belgian gendarmerie. So, the brothers completely switched from long-barreled weapons, and since at that time the main short-barreled weapon was a revolver, it was the designers who took the development of revolvers more seriously.

In 1877, the Belgian army raised the question of replacing the not very successful Chamelo-Delvin revolver, and just at that time Emil Nagant patented his revolver with a double-action trigger and a ramrod pusher that was attached to the frame of the weapon and was removed in the drum axis after performing its functions.



After a number of improvements, this revolver was transferred to the competition for the Belgian army, and from the first days of testing left the competition behind. The integral frame of the weapon made it possible to use more powerful ammunition without harming the revolver itself, and the individual elements of the structure were more convenient and reliable. The price of the weapon also played a key role: despite the fact that the design of the trigger was not the easiest, the revolver itself required a large amount of high-quality metal, the Nagan brothers offered to deliver it at a lower price than its competitors.

As it is easy to guess, the M1878 revolver was adopted by the army of Belgium. This weapon became personal for warrant officers, military sergeants of senior sergeants, and later the same revolver became the main weapon of the Belgian gendarmerie.

The revolver was proposed by the patron, developed by the Nagan brothers. The cartridge consisted of a metal sleeve in which a lead-free shell-free bullet with a caliber 9,4 of millimeter and a mass of 12 grams was placed. The initial speed of a bullet fired from a revolver reached 200 meters per second. The revolver itself was a rather heavy weapon. Weight revolver was equal to 1,1 kilogram. The total length of the weapon was 270 millimeters with a barrel length 140 millimeters. Ate a revolver from a drum with 6 cameras.

This revolver, developed by Emil Nagan, became the starting point for the further development of this class of weapons of the brothers. All subsequent models, one way or another, were based precisely on this first successful revolver. The well-known side-flip door for extracting spent cartridges and equipping a revolver drum with new cartridges appeared in this version of the weapon.

Degradation of M1878 revolver: Nagant M1883 revolver

Weapons do not always follow the path of development, sometimes this is the path of degradation. In the M1878 revolver model, the firing mechanism was a double action. Despite the relatively low cost offered by the Nagan brothers, the highest military ranks felt that the weapons were too good for arming them all. The designers were asked to abandon the double-action firing mechanism and develop a cheaper single-action revolver. So there was a revolver under the designation M1883.



Gunsmiths greatly simplified the trigger mechanism of the weapon, making it a single action. Externally, the revolver could be distinguished only by the drum, the surface of which was smooth without dolov. In general, the characteristics of the weapon have not changed, if we forget that now before each shot it was necessary to manually trigger the trigger, but the cost of the weapon changed, although not significantly.



Despite the fact that the trigger mechanism lost its individual elements due to the heavier drum of the revolver, the mass of the weapon remained unchanged and was equal to 1,1 kilogram. The length of the revolver was equal to the same 27 centimeters with a four-centimeter barrel. The cartridge was used all the same 9,4x22.

Revolver M1884 Luxemburg - the old revolver with a new cartridge

Another modification of the M1878 revolver is the M1884 Luxemburg revolver. In the army of this small state in service were rifles with Remington bolts, improved and produced by the Nagan brothers. Apparently, the satisfaction of the cooperation and the final product played in favor of the fact that when the question arose of replacing the revolvers in his army, the military officials of Luxembourg again turned to the Belgians.

The main problem was that the military did not want to switch to the cartridge proposed by the brothers under any pretext, because the new revolvers were developed under a different ammunition - Swedish 7,5х23. True, the designers managed to "push through" and their ammunition, but more on that below.

Emil developed three models of weapons for Luxembourg: Officer, Safety, Gendarme.

The first was a military revolver, with the designation Officer and in fact was all the same M1878, but under the new cartridge.

It is necessary to immediately bring the characteristics of the used ammunition, so that it was clear why Luxembourg so resisted Naganovsky ammunition. As is clear from the designation of the cartridge, the sleeve length is equal to 23 millimeters with a diameter of a bullet 7,5 millimeter. The bullet itself was already in a copper shell and had a mass in 7 grams. The initial speed when fired from the M1884 Luxemburg revolver was 350 meters per second. If we compare it with what the Nagan brothers offered, then there is nothing to compare, the advantages of the Swedish patron are obvious. But back to the revolver.



The Nagant M1884 Luxemburg Officer revolver had all the same weight in 1,1 kilograms, all the same barrel length in 140 millimeters with a total length of 270 millimeters. That is, the designers simply reduced the drum chambers and replaced the barrel of the revolver.

More interesting was the model with the designation Safety. It is no secret to anyone that the perfect balance in weapons, between maximum security and constant instant readiness for use, immediately after extraction, is achieved in revolvers. However, even this did not seem enough in Luxembourg. For the weapon that was used to protect civilian objects and prisons, a special modification of the M1884 revolver was ordered, in the design of which a non-automatic safety device against accidental firing was provided. No doubt, it’s better to be safe once again with a firearm, but the fuse of a revolver is too much.

Structurally, the fuse was a lever that blocked the drum of the weapon, thereby pressing the trigger it became impossible to produce, as well as manually trigger the trigger. Fixed the switch with the help of an additional part, mounted on the frame of the weapon. The characteristics of the revolver remained the same as the version of the Officer weapon, only the mass increased by 70 grams.

As mentioned above, the designers managed to persuade the Luxembourgers to use their cartridge in one of the versions of the M1884 revolver. This revolver was the Nagant M1884 Luxemburg Gendarme, which, as the name implies, was intended for law enforcement.



The main distinctive feature of this revolver was a longer barrel, which had to be increased due to another interesting requirement from the customer. The fact that the Luxembourg gendarmerie asked to make it possible to install a bayonet on a revolver. What was the use of a thin bayonet of the entire length of 10 centimeters remains a mystery, but the problems he caused are quite well known. The mounting of the bayonet prevented the convenient use of the ramrod-ejector of the spent cartridges; it was for this reason that the barrel of the weapon was extended. In addition to the longer barrel, the revolver could be recognized by the smooth surface of the drum.



The elongation of the barrel on the scanty, seemingly magnitude in 20 millimeters, significantly affected the accuracy of the weapon, but other parameters of the revolver have changed. So, its mass began to be equal to 1140 grams without a bayonet. The length of the barrel was 160 millimeters. The total length, respectively, increased by the same 20 millimeters and began to equal 290 millimeters. As mentioned earlier, the revolver was fed with 9,4x22 cartridges.

Revolver M1878 / 1886: weapons updated Leon Leon

In the process of working on revolvers for Luxembourg, Emil Nagant began to have vision problems. Affected and long work with documents and drawings in low light and the age of the designer. While the eldest of the brothers was improving their health, the younger one did not sit with folded arms and developed a new double-action trigger mechanism, which was not only cheaper to manufacture, but also more perfect. The fact that the Nagan brothers used the old 4 springs was used in the old trigger mechanism of the brothers, says that there was still room to develop.



It was this development that Leon proposed. In his USM, instead of four, only one spring was used, and separate different elements of the old design became one whole piece. Undoubtedly, in the production of complex parts were more expensive, but their smaller amount more than compensated for this, making the overall result cheaper. In addition, the reliability of the weapon, which now withstood the most barbaric treatment, increased significantly.

In addition to a more sophisticated and cheaper trigger mechanism of the revolver, Leon thoroughly worked on the frame of the revolver, removing the extra metal where the load on the shot was minimal, which led to the relief of the weapon.

Finally, thanks to Leon, the cartridge 9,4х22, which began to be filled with smokeless powder, was modernized and received a bullet in a copper shell, which, in turn, favorably affected the general characteristics of the revolver. An interesting point is that Leon originally planned to develop a weapon chambered for 7,5х23, but after weighing the losses from sales of ammunition and problems with the promotion of weapons in the army and law enforcement agencies that used 9,4X22 ammunition, it was decided to modernize his own ammunition. As it turned out later, the development of a new revolver chambered for 7,5х23 was not in vain.

A new weapon was proposed to the army of Belgium, in which they happily adopted a new, cheaper revolver with a double-action trigger mechanism, and even more reliable and lightweight. By the way, all three versions of weapons that were in service with the army served until the end of the First World War and were replaced only because of the ammunition used.

The new revolver had a mass of 940 grams. Its length was all the same 270 millimeters with a barrel length 140 millimeters.

It may seem that Emil interfered with his authority to his younger brother, but in reality this is not at all the case. All previous designs of designers were joint work, authorship is usually awarded to the one in whose name this or that patent was registered. The disagreement among the brothers arose a little later, and although the disagreements concerned the arms company, they had nothing to do with a firearm.

A series of M1878 / 1886 revolvers with a shorter barrel for various ammunition

As mentioned earlier, Leon Nagan initially developed a new revolver chambered for the 7,5х23, but refused this ammunition in favor of upgrading his own cartridge. However, the developments were not wasted. A year later, Sweden announced a competition for a new revolver for its army under the cartridge 7,5х23, the only requirement that Leon’s practical ready-made revolver did not fit was the length of the weapon. The solution to the problem turned out to be the simplest: the barrel was shortened from 140 to 114 millimeters. Accordingly, the total length was equal to 244 millimeters, not 235, as written in many reference books: in addition to the barrel in the weapon, nothing has changed, and the frame remains the same. The mass of the new revolver was 770 grams, he received the designation Nagant M1887 Swedish. The competition for a new short-barreled weapon for the army, as it is not difficult to guess, he won.



The same revolver may be designated Nagant M1891 Serbian, under this name the weapon was taken in Serbia. The same weapon has one more name - Nagant M1893 Norwegian, under this name it was put into service in Norway and was absolutely no different from the Swedish version of the revolver.



On the basis of the M1878 / 1886 revolver, variants were made for other ammunition, namely under 11,2x20 and 11,2x22 for Brazil and Argentina, respectively. These revolvers already had a barrel in 140 millimeters and a length of 270, while the mass was 980 grams. These revolvers are designated as Nagant M1893 Brazilian and Nagant M1893 Argentinian revolvers.

So why did they forget Emile Nagan, but remember his brother? Nagant M1895

Despite the fact that Emil Nagan withdrew from the management of the company and devoted more time to restoring the deteriorated health, his blindness only progressed. Perhaps they are not used to sitting idle, and perhaps wanting to leave a significant mark on stories before he became completely blind, the designer began work on his last revolver.

One of the main drawbacks of revolvers is the breakthrough of powder gases between the barrel and the barrel of a weapon at the moment of firing. Such irrational use of powder charge could not be overlooked by gunsmiths and many tried to minimize it.



In 1892, Emil Nagan registers several patents, among which one can find a variant of the firing mechanism that causes the drum of the revolver to “roll” on the barrel of the weapon and the cartridge with a deep-set bullet inside. It was these developments that became the basis for the new revolver, which received the designation M1892, but was not commercially available.

The weapon did not go into the series due to the fact that this particular revolver was presented at the competition for a new short-barreled weapon for the Russian army. All the forces of the designers were aimed at defeating this time, after losing the competition for a new rifle. In the process of improving the revolver, both Emil and Leon went for a variety of tricks, because everyone knows the phrase that the Nagan M1895 revolver can be made from the rejected Mosin rifle barrels. The initial cartridge of the weapon was changed, the barrel and all this was deservedly rewarded with a victory.

The race for the contract from the Russian army finally undermined Emil's health, and after winning the competition, he retired in 1896. It is this event that can be considered the one that has erased his name in history. From 1896, the arms company was renamed from Fabrique d'Armes Emile et Leon Nagant to Fabrique d'Armes Leon Nagant. It was difficult to say why a change in the name of the company took place. Perhaps the reason was that Leon Nagan saw the development of the automotive industry, while Emil remained loyal to firearms. After the M1895 revolver model, the weapons company already had Leon Nagana unable to please with anything fundamentally new, concentrating on the development of passenger cars, and not new weapons. In 1900, Leon Nagan died at the age of 67. Emil, with his poor health and virtually complete blindness, could not replace his brother even as the head of a company.

It was a continuation, but not long

So in 1900, the children of Emile, Charles and Maurice, became the leaders of the Nagan company. True, it is necessary to make a reservation that the children were no longer children, but accomplished men who had previously taken an active part in the affairs of the company.

Just like their uncle Leon, they saw the future of the company in the automotive industry, but they did not abandon their weapons business, although for them it was in the background.

Of all the developments of the children of Emil Nagan, only one model of the revolver can be singled out that deserves attention, namely, the Nagant M1910. At its core, it was an M1895 revolver, but with one significant difference - its drum was reclined to the right side for reloading, which significantly accelerated this process. Unfortunately, this update of the weapon was a bit late, as the revolvers were seriously pressed by self-loading pistols.

The mass of the revolver developed by Emil Nagan’s children was 795 grams. The length of the weapon was equal to 240 millimeters with a barrel length of 110 millimeters. Ate a revolver from a seven-chamber drum with 7,62x38 cartridges.

In 1914, the production of weapons and ammunition at Nagant was discontinued. The First World War and the overall low demand for cars after it did not allow companies to develop in the car market. In 1930, the company founded by Emil and Leon Naganami closed.

According to the articles of Sergey Monetchikov and the guns.ru forum
Author:
Photos used:
weaponland.ru
89 comments
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  1. Northern warrior
    Northern warrior 6 March 2018 15: 23
    +4
    The design of the Nagan is extremely unfortunate, especially in terms of reload speed. It would be better if ours adopted the S&W Model 10 Military and Police.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 6 March 2018 15: 45
      +3
      What was the terms of reference, such and accepted. There is a good feuilleton on this subject. Leo Sokolov. Weapons tales. Revolver.
    2. Michael_Zverev
      Michael_Zverev 6 March 2018 16: 21
      +4
      The S&W Model 10 Military and Police had not yet appeared by the time of the competition for a new revolver for the RIA, so the Colt M1892 could take part there.
  2. Monarchist
    Monarchist 6 March 2018 16: 44
    +3
    Quote: Northern warrior
    The design of the Nagan is extremely unfortunate, especially in terms of reload speed. It would be better if ours adopted the S&W Model 10 Military and Police.

    Quote: Northern warrior
    The design of the Nagan is extremely unfortunate, especially in terms of reload speed. It would be better if ours adopted the S&W Model 10 Military and Police.

    An indispensable folding drum will facilitate loading or extraditing spent cartridges.
    But Nagan was adopted by the RIA in 1896, and the SW "military and police" model first appeared in 1902, model 10 appeared in 1905. That is, in your opinion, the Ministry of War should have begun rearmament in 3-5, and this is expensive + conservatism of the military, they, like the Belgians, believed that for a dual-action trigger, a double-acting trigger would be complicated and lead to a depletion of ammunition for the dealer. You probably remember that the TT pistol (the first models were very doubtful) appeared in 1930-1934 and could not completely supplant Nagan
  3. Monarchist
    Monarchist 6 March 2018 17: 03
    +5
    Emil and Leon Nagan were not professional designers, but managed to create a beautiful revolver. See how much +: high-tech, cheap and reliable.
    Maybe you remember at the end of the 2nd series: “Born of the Revolution,” Somov says goodbye to Nikolai Kondratyev and gives Nagan and says: “now this is the most reliable weapon.” And even then in Russia they managed to learn and evaluate well: "Browning 1903" (Russian officers were allowed to acquire them as auxiliary weapons) Mauser 1896, Luger "Parabellum"
    1. Northern warrior
      Northern warrior 6 March 2018 19: 42
      +5
      What is wonderful in Nagan? The cartridge's power is crap, the design is complicated by the mechanism of sliding the drum onto the barrel, the reload time is long, and the USM soldier version of the revolver does not withstand any criticism. My opinion is the worst firearm, which was in service with RI and the USSR. If I have no particular complaints about the Mosin-Nagan rifle, then they obviously hurried with a revolver ...
      1. aws4
        aws4 7 March 2018 01: 19
        +3
        and you shoot him surprised and see the pros))))))))))))
        1. Northern warrior
          Northern warrior 7 March 2018 01: 30
          +1
          He didn’t shoot, but he held it in his hands. He fired only from the Brazilian Taurus under the Flaubert cartridge, which is made on the basis of a .38 Special caliber combat revolver. In short, it is heaven and earth!
          1. AlexMark
            7 March 2018 11: 55
            +3
            In no way do I want to offend, but your comparison is incorrect. This is equivalent to how to shoot from the pneumatic MP-654 and draw conclusions about the PM request
            1. Northern warrior
              Northern warrior 7 March 2018 23: 51
              +2
              Their design is identical, only the caliber is different. All the charm of these Taurus lies in this. At one time they were not even imported due to the ease of Flaubert's alteration under 5.6 mm. Comparing the combat PM and MP-654 is rather stupid, because they are similar only from the outside.
          2. revnagan
            revnagan 7 March 2018 14: 45
            +1
            He fired from Nagan. A great thing. Accurate, moderate return, for self-defense - that’s it. You can’t compare either with the TT or with the PM who kick, kick hard, the accuracy ... well, it is. Theoretically. Point blank. But "Nagan" is a thing.
            1. aws4
              aws4 7 March 2018 18: 23
              0
              here I am about the same ...
            2. Northern warrior
              Northern warrior 8 March 2018 00: 28
              +3
              PM is an excellent barrel of its time, unlike Nagan. The accuracy of firing from it is quite sufficient for those distances at which pistols are used.
              1. wer2
                wer2 8 March 2018 21: 38
                0
                Quote: Northern warrior
                PM is an excellent barrel of its time, unlike Nagan.

                PM, this is a police (gun) gun. For the army is not suitable at all.
                Nagan could theoretically be a military service weapon. If it was a gun.
                1. Kibb
                  Kibb 8 March 2018 23: 35
                  +2
                  But it (PM) was made as a service / status one - it was simply from the experience of WWII that we thought that an army pistol was not needed as such (a moot point, but it still remains) the army should have become an APS, but for a number of reasons That did not happen.
                  1. wer2
                    wer2 9 March 2018 00: 00
                    0
                    Quote: Kibb
                    But he (PM) was made as a service / status

                    This is not just an official, this is a police gun. And the army service can only be in the caliber of 7,62 mm (with us). That's how gun, of the same power, just a gun.
                    Quote: Kibb
                    it’s just from the experience of WWII that we thought that an army pistol as such was not needed

                    Maybe. The only problem is that we did not have an army pistol during WW2. Therefore, it is not clear how this experience was received.
                    He was with the Germans, but not with all. It was Walter. But not Luger.
                    Quote: Kibb
                    army was supposed to be APS

                    APS could be and was only a misunderstanding. He did not become and cannot become any of the known types of individual small arms.
                    On a regular PM cartridge, only a police pistol could be made. And nothing else.
                2. Northern warrior
                  Northern warrior 9 March 2018 01: 04
                  0
                  Before the appearance of bulletproof vests in the armies of the world, the PM was quite effective in the carcass. Small size, rounded shapes, self-cocking USM, simple and reliable design - these are not all the advantages of the work of Nikolai Fedorovich Makarov. Yes, PM is outdated as an army weapon, but even today it is a good police pistol. If you need a pistol with a magazine for 15 rounds, then it is better to take a "Ksenia" (AKS-74U for dummies).
                  1. wer2
                    wer2 9 March 2018 07: 25
                    +3
                    Quote: Northern warrior
                    Before the appearance of bulletproof vests in the armies of the world, the PM was quite effective in the carcass.

                    PM, as befits a normal police pistol, has never been effective on a carcass. And the power of the PM cartridge is not just chosen, but specifically so as not to kill again. The main task of the policeman is to bring the criminal to court. And do not soak it in place.
                    I think the PM cartridge was originally a trophy development. And then, without understanding, they made pistols for him, which went to the SA.
                    Quote: Northern warrior
                    Yes, PM is outdated as an army weapon

                    He never was. It was a police gun in the army.
                    1. Northern warrior
                      Northern warrior 9 March 2018 10: 31
                      0
                      The stopping effect of the bullet cartridge 9x18 mm PM is slightly inferior to 9x19 mm PAIR. 9x18 mm - one of the most powerful cartridges, allowing you to use the automation scheme with a free shutter. Of course, during the development of PM, Walter PP / PPK designs were studied, but our gun surpasses its German counterparts in power and reliability. In the US, PM is very popular among police as a second weapon, which already says a lot ...
                      1. The comment was deleted.
                      2. Dmitry Bogun
                        Dmitry Bogun 11 June 2019 04: 10
                        0
                        Cartridge PM - 300 J., cartridge 9 Pair - from 450 J. and up to ... (we will not ...). Take its minimum power - 450 J. More than PM, 50%. This is not exactly what you are writing about.
                    2. aws4
                      aws4 9 March 2018 20: 46
                      0
                      here you are right for all 100
                    3. Michael_Zverev
                      Michael_Zverev 10 March 2018 06: 27
                      0
                      Quote: wer2
                      I think the PM cartridge was originally a trophy development.

                      Not really. It is made on the basis of a shortened TT sleeve, although the experience of creating the German Ultra 9x18 cartridge was taken into account.
              2. Kibb
                Kibb 8 March 2018 23: 45
                0
                And what accuracy of shooting from Nagan does not suit you? Then he shoots quite a bunch, but slowly. For self-cocking, the trigger is fired "either with a manual cocking - with accuracy and accuracy it is all right, if it weren’t even with such a weak cartridge, then what’s good about it, except for shooting with a silencer
            3. wer2
              wer2 8 March 2018 21: 36
              0
              Quote: revnagan
              Do not compare with either TT or PM, which “kick, kick”, the return is tough,

              I’ll tell you a secret, TT and PM, these are not army pistols. This is so, a trifle. Especially PM. One sports, the second official. But with army pistols, there’s recoil. But there is no choice, or you are alive, but with bestowal. Or comfortably, but ... not alive.
          3. aws4
            aws4 7 March 2018 18: 22
            0
            I meant from Nagan ... when I shot him for the first time, he pleasantly surprised me .. a very accurate weapon ..
        2. wer2
          wer2 8 March 2018 21: 31
          0
          Quote: aws4
          and you shoot him surprised and see the pros

          So shoot at 50 m, as it should be from an army pistol (revolver). And then tell us about the pros. If you notice them.
          Moreover, even a shot at point-blank range is extremely difficult to kill. And for the army this is important.
          1. aws4
            aws4 8 March 2018 23: 37
            +2
            shot from Nagant and 50 meters too, it’s not difficult to get into a person .. still shot from pm, aps, tt, kolt1911, glock, mauser96, voltet ppk, p38, parabelum, psm, margolin, chz, then continue ??? ? what are you trying to explain I don’t understand ??? Nagan behaves superbly at great distances (for a pistol, revolver), but I can’t say anything about the action of the bullet .. alas, I didn’t see a wound and didn’t read anything .. if you have literature about the effects of the bullet on the human body, it’s amazing stopping actions you can lay out with pleasure I will get acquainted and I will be grateful to you))))))))
            1. wer2
              wer2 9 March 2018 00: 08
              +1
              Quote: aws4
              if you have literature on the impact of a bullet on a human body, damaging and stopping actions, then you can lay out with pleasure I will get acquainted and I will be grateful to you

              I do not think that I can lay out such an array of information. I can only assure you that I already wrote above. In words.
              For comparison, DE Beretta 92FS (M9) - 550 J. This is the main US army gun now.
              DE Nagana - 258 J.
              But then the Nagan recoil momentum is only 76% of the Beretta recoil momentum.
              1. aws4
                aws4 9 March 2018 01: 21
                0
                Well, thanks for that)))) although I would also advise you to shoot from Nagan it’s a very interesting barrel)))))))) and by the way, judging by your comments, we have already communicated somehow, familiar notes slip through ... well, something familiar about TT sports cartridge ... if you know the evolution of the Borchardt-Mauser-TT cartridge, then I am surprised at your statement that the TT sports pistol ... is that why everyone rushes to extremes ??? here recently an article was about browning hp and there one person proved to me that TT is a legend and HP is an ordinary average, I told him the opposite .. you have the other extreme of TT is not just srendyachek but a dull ....... sports misunderstanding .. .
                1. Crane operator Nahamkinson
                  Crane operator Nahamkinson 9 March 2018 01: 27
                  +2
                  I will reveal it to you.
                  This is a black digger,
                  from Karelia.
                  Was on, under the nickname,
                  Boschman, or pushman.
                  English only
                  transcription.
                  Well, his profile picture was a fox.
                  And then the negro.
                  It was creepy ......
                  He loved to pour mud on Soviet weapons, the Soviet system and everything Soviet.
                  1. aws4
                    aws4 9 March 2018 01: 34
                    +1
                    ahhhh i thought so .. surely it means i wasn’t mistaken obviously this is the one that all of our small arms calls what .. although wait me wrote here that it was like Kuptsov ..
                    1. wer2
                      wer2 9 March 2018 07: 34
                      0
                      Quote: aws4
                      ahhhh i thought so ..

                      You listen to different freaks less. For some reason, they will “recognize” me in different topics. And everyone will know in different ways. They would already agree among themselves.
                  2. wer2
                    wer2 9 March 2018 07: 35
                    0
                    Quote: Crane operator Nahamkinson
                    Well, his profile picture was a fox.
                    And then the negro.

                    And then the mad dog.
                    Before you write, have a snack.
                    Quote: Crane Operator Nahamkinson
                    He loved to pour mud on Soviet weapons, the Soviet system and everything Soviet.

                    But with this I agree with your boatswain-pushman. There was nothing good from the USSR. It was a disaster for Russia. And this USSR iknets more than once.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                2. wer2
                  wer2 9 March 2018 07: 32
                  0
                  Quote: aws4
                  Well, something familiar about the TT sports cartridge

                  He is really sporty. Powerful and relatively small caliber.
                  Quote: aws4
                  I am surprised at your claim that the TT sports pistol

                  Well, what should I call him? So, as his grandfather called Borghardt, "traveler's weapon"? Today it is not accepted. Therefore, the most appropriate name is a sports pistol.
                  Quote: aws4
                  you have the other extreme of TT is not just srendyachek but dull ....... sports misunderstanding ...

                  We return to the beginning. The characteristics of the weapon are mainly determined by the cartridge. A TT cartridge is just sporty, powerful and relatively small caliber.
                  I do not call, for example, the sports cartridge Mauser Export. This is the same sleeve, but a different bullet (9 mm). Because this cartridge is no longer sporting.
                  1. aws4
                    aws4 9 March 2018 20: 59
                    0
                    Compare the performance characteristics of the Borchardt cartridge with the TT cartridge ... different cartridges ... according to your military pistol, only caliber is determined ??? 9 mm middle ground with this I do not argue ..
                    1. wer2
                      wer2 9 March 2018 21: 14
                      0
                      Quote: aws4
                      Compare the performance characteristics of the Borchardt cartridge with the TT cartridge ... different cartridges ..

                      Mauser, Borchardt and TT are about the same. And TT and Mauser, and interchangeably.
                      Quote: aws4
                      about your military gun is determined only by caliber ???

                      The main army pistol is distinguished by the fact that at a distance of 50 m with a good-quality hit it "knocks down" an enemy soldier with a 100% probability. How he does it is already subtleties and details. But with a caliber of 9 mm (in the USSR it is 8,8 mm) it is most convenient to “knock down”.
                      Quote: aws4
                      9 mm middle ground with this I do not argue ..

                      That's it. Although before the era of the Broniks .45 caliber was more in demand. He allowed you to make excellent submachine guns with a TTX of submachine gun carbines (Thompsons). On a pistol cartridge 0.45 ACP, and then on 0.45 ACP +. But the armor "killed" this weapon. In exchange, the Americans made the M16A1 on the cartridge of the new principle of action. And having tested it in Vietnam and then slightly finalized, they made the M16A2, which became the main infantry weapon. Displacing and M14.
                      And for the army pistol, the Americans adopted a 9 mm Para cartridge, instead of 0.45 ACP.
                      1. aws4
                        aws4 9 March 2018 21: 44
                        +1
                        Thank you for opening a person with experience in using and studying rifled firearms to me this new type - a submachine gun ... that’s what you can talk about with you later,? Well, excuse me, if I’m rude, I didn’t want to catch you, it just becomes right when you normally have a dialogue and keep you as an idiot ... Tommy was a classic PP on a 45 round cartridge and also very expensive from the beginning .. its main advantage is that he appeared in the early 20s, that is, he was one of the first-born and moreover successful ... please do not clutter the air with your fantasies and at least respect your interlocutor, otherwise I, like others, will consider this banter and trolling and will not continue to conduct a dialogue ...
                      2. hohol95
                        hohol95 10 March 2018 00: 10
                        +1
                        Based on your logic, the ABC-36 is by no means an AUTOMATIC RIFLE, but a RIG-MACHINE! So it turns out? And then they should call her VPS-36?
                    2. wer2
                      wer2 9 March 2018 21: 57
                      0
                      Quote: aws4
                      Thank you for opening a man with experience in using and studying fire rifled weapons to this new type - a submachine gun.

                      Of course, please. It’s always nice to say something first.
                      In fact, weapons are extremely rare in the army. From serial things we can recall only the American Carbine, Cal .30, M2. And the Dominican .30 Kiraly-Cristóbal Carbine.
                      But they are on the .30 Carbine carbine cartridge. And Thompson TTX submachine guns gave out on a pistol cartridge 0.45 ACP +.
                      Quote: aws4
                      Tommy was a classic PP 45 round

                      What does classic mean? Is that the one playing the classics?
                      Tommy was PP. But it had a TTX class higher than the TTX PP. A class higher than the PP are submachine gun carbines, if we are talking about automatic weapons. Examples of classic submachine gun carbines I gave above.
                      So clearer?
                      Actually Tommy on a cartridge of 0.45 ACP + and survived from the US Army Carbine, Cal .30, M2. Their characteristics were approximately the same, and the cartridge 0.45 ACP + was also used for the pistol. Those. was more universal.
                      Quote: aws4
                      otherwise I, like others, will consider this banter and trolling and will not continue to engage in dialogue ..

                      Collective farm, voluntary.
                      1. aws4
                        aws4 9 March 2018 22: 30
                        +2
                        Well, how is that ??? how so ???? I re-read dozens of books, hundreds of books and articles on the Internet, shot from many pistols, rifles, machine guns, machine guns, PP, grenade launchers, rifles and you will learn from you that there is such a type of weapon a submachine gun ... and you tell me here they brought in two carabiners that I have been using for a long time using the same original cartridge and about miracles it’s a new or well-forgotten type of weapon a submachine gun ... and even Tommy with a 45+ cartridge here ... glued ... dear wer2 I please ask me to provide me with at least a few handbooks on firearms where there would be such a type as a submachine gun carbine .. only please do not play with word translations it will not be fair ...
                    3. wer2
                      wer2 9 March 2018 23: 47
                      0
                      Quote: aws4
                      and about a miracle, this is a new or well-forgotten type of weapon a submachine gun carbine ..

                      Rather well forgotten. For the army, this weapon is not suitable. And the army has not been used for a long time.
                      Even Cristóbal was discontinued. Yes, and Kirali died. But it was he who almost all the time promoting this kind of weapon. At first he made his Danuvians on the cartridge of Mauser Export. And he magnified his products with a carbine-machine gun, which was incorrect. Danuvia did not reach such a weapon, they were just powerful PP. And after the war he made a series of Cristobales on the cartridge .30 Carbine. These were already real machine gun carbines.
                      Yes, there you go. For the army, Cristobali was bad. But they enjoyed success with all kinds of crooks and terrorists. In particular, it was the favorite weapon of the famous leftist terrorist Che Guevara.
                      Quote: aws4
                      Yes, and Tommy with a 45+ cartridge here ... glued

                      Yes, nobody stuck anything. The .45 ACP + cartridge has such good performance characteristics (or rather, it had them in the non-vested era) that it issued TTM submachine guns on the barrel of the Tommy gun.
                      It’s generally a brand name of the Americans, to get weapons of a higher class on cartridges one class lower. You don’t have to go far for examples, M16A2, according to the technical specifications, this is a full-fledged infantry automatic rifle. And she uses a cartridge not of a rifle, but of intermediate power. Those. one step lower in the classification.
                      The same story was with .045 ACP. In addition, he was still walking for an army pistol. As a result, everything they got was cheap and cheerful.
                      1. aws4
                        aws4 10 March 2018 00: 59
                        0
                        I’ve all remembered you. We’ve already talked with you .. the same turns and suggestions - to get weapons of a higher class on cartridges one class lower. You don’t have to go far for examples, M16A2, according to the technical specifications, this is a full-fledged infantry automatic rifle. And she uses a cartridge not of a rifle, but of intermediate power. Those. one step lower in the classification.
                    4. wer2
                      wer2 10 March 2018 00: 31
                      0
                      Quote: hohol95
                      Based on your logic, the ABC-36 is by no means an AUTOMATIC RIFLE, but a RIG-MACHINE! So it turns out? And then should they call VPS-36?

                      What do you. Space blaster. Third generation.

                      By the way, ABC is NOT a real automatic rifle. This is a weapon of the SFW category. Self-loading rifle with the ability to conduct automatic fire. Like the M14.
                      The real automatic rifle in the Red Army was proudly called the "light machine gun" DP-27.
          2. Dmitry Bogun
            Dmitry Bogun 11 June 2019 04: 17
            0
            You surprise with your "conclusions" .... Nagant from 35 steps (25 meters), punches 3 pine boards 25 mm thick, spaced 80 mm from each other. Take a knife and try to punch through at least one such board with it ... And a man is not a wild boar or an elk at all. He is very "weak for a wound".
  4. Yak28
    Yak28 6 March 2018 17: 50
    +5
    Why is a revolver good? A weak cartridge, charging and extraction of cartridges by the piece. American and English revolvers of those years where the drum was tilted to the side, or the revolver broke, exceeded the rev one in speed and ease of reloading. The only interesting solution is that the drum is suitable for shooting to the barrel, reducing the exit of powder gases to nowhere, but a weak cartridge of the gun does not save it. The same bulky Mauser looks much more presentable
    1. Looking for
      Looking for 6 March 2018 19: 11
      -1
      I will give you a theme for your next "pearl! -And what good is the T-34 tank?
      1. Yak28
        Yak28 6 March 2018 19: 23
        +2
        The T 34 has good speed, maneuverability, and inclined, that is, ricocheted armor. The only minus of the T 34 is its weapon, but in subsequent versions it was brought to mind. Nevertheless, the Tiger’s cannon No. 1. Nevertheless, the theme of the revolver is a gun, which, like a revolver, is one of the worst for its time, starting from an unsuccessful cartridge, and up to the revolver itself.
        1. aws4
          aws4 7 March 2018 01: 22
          0
          believe the gun is not the only t 34 minutes .. there were at least 4
        2. wer2
          wer2 8 March 2018 21: 45
          0
          Quote: Yak28
          T 34 has a good speed

          A strange "achievement" for a medium infantry escort tank.
          Quote: Yak28
          maneuverability

          The maneuverability of all tanks is approximately the same.
          Quote: Yak28
          and inclined, that is, rebound armor.

          Inclined armor and ricochet armor are two different things. Tilt armor at the T-34 was. Ricochet was not. She was at KV.
          Quote: Yak28
          The only minus T 34 is his gun

          Far from the only one.
          Quote: Yak28
          but in subsequent versions it was brought to mind.

          This is how it is, interesting? The fragmentation of an 85 mm projectile was no better than the fragmentation of a very dead Soviet 76 mm military projectile (it was like a pre-war 57 mm projectile). Although the armor penetration of the gun improved significantly.
          Quote: Yak28
          Nevertheless, the Tiger gun number 1

          What tiger? If Tiger 1, then the Panther’s gun was better.
          And if Tiger 2, then yes.
    2. Northern warrior
      Northern warrior 6 March 2018 19: 48
      +1
      Well, English revolvers are not a fountain either.
      1. Yak28
        Yak28 6 March 2018 19: 57
        +1
        Not a fountain, but not a fountain like Nagan yet search
      2. Kibb
        Kibb 10 March 2018 21: 53
        0
        Well, based on the criteria, they still shoot, then they shoot - in the 90s in the private security structures of Israel, for example, there were relatively many of them. For example, I had Enfield 95 in 2th, but Vebley also met
    3. aws4
      aws4 7 March 2018 01: 20
      +2
      and you shoot him surprised and see the pros))))))))))))
      1. Walking
        Walking 8 March 2018 12: 45
        +3
        Quote: aws4
        and you shoot him surprised and see the pros))))))))))))


        And then in close combat shoot all the ammo and try to quickly reload.
        1. Yak28
          Yak28 8 March 2018 21: 19
          +1
          In, in revolvers where the drum leans to the side, you can shoot three drums, while you will have to take out the cartridges piece by piece
        2. aws4
          aws4 9 March 2018 22: 46
          0
          and nobody argues with that .. everyone knows that
    4. wer2
      wer2 8 March 2018 21: 48
      0
      Quote: Yak28
      but a weak Nagan cartridge doesn’t save it. The same bulky Mauser looks much more presentable

      Mauser Bolo is not suitable for the army because of the sports cartridge.
      Mauser "army" (German) was removed from the army due to an excessively powerful cartridge.
      The Nagan cartridge is ballistically quite suitable for an army service weapon. But not constructively. And Nagan himself, this is a revolver, not a gun. Hence, it is unsuitable for the army.
  5. Sasha75
    Sasha75 6 March 2018 19: 38
    +5
    The topic has been discussed millions of times on different sites. It’s better not to take this or that and not give either this or that. All companies offered the purchase of products, but not the transfer of technology and the creation of production in Russia, sanctions at that time were also. The only one who transmitted the technology of machine tools and the arrangement of production in Russia was Nagan. In Russia, there was not even a machine tool park for manufacturing at least something like that. There was backwardness in everything. Nagan was taken for a short time to replace the Russian Smith Weson, as they say, so far it is better that it does not appear, but the longest for us is that it is temporary.
    1. Yak28
      Yak28 9 March 2018 08: 23
      0
      You just had to copy successful models of weapons of other countries. Small arms, grenades, ammunition and so on. What for something to invent from scratch if you can just take it.
      Unfortunately, today, nothing has changed in this regard.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. aws4
          aws4 9 March 2018 21: 06
          +1
          Well, at the expense of ak, you're lying and you know it yourself .. there was already so much discussion and evidence that in the end even the most stubborn surrendered and came up with another version that supposedly the Germans in the alliance after the war sculpted ak .. but at the same time not a single piece of paper or a scrap of information or even memories in the memoirs did not show .. now it’s clear that you simply hate the USSR and are not ready to talk in essence ...
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. aws4
              aws4 9 March 2018 21: 51
              +2
              a great argument means it's too early laughing oh yes and I also liked about a decent person laughing you know, I don’t know much about truly decent people, but not one you hear, not one of them has ever said to himself that he is decent, others have said it about them ... but those who say such things to themselves always either deceive or are deceived sad
  6. Dmitriy Zadorozhniy
    Dmitriy Zadorozhniy 6 March 2018 20: 16
    +5
    Nagan, this is the most unkilled revolver in history. Everything else is either more complicated or less foolproof. Reliability can be compared with PM. Among automatic pistols, and AK. among automatic machines. You can kill a Nagan, but it’s very difficult.
    1. wer2
      wer2 8 March 2018 21: 27
      0
      Quote: Dmitriy Zadorozhniy
      You can kill a Nagan, but it’s very difficult.

      And you can kill from Nagan, but it’s difficult. And for the army this is important.
    2. Kibb
      Kibb 8 March 2018 23: 12
      0
      How forgive is he the most unkilled? The fact that FIG was produced knows how many years? There are dozens, if not hundreds, of unleaded revolvers in history - I just don’t understand what you mean by the term “unleaded
  7. sxfRipper
    sxfRipper 6 March 2018 21: 47
    +1
    the highest military officials considered that the weapon was too good for arming them all without exception
    Ouch ... Well, what else can I say ...
    1. alex-cn
      alex-cn 7 March 2018 10: 28
      +2
      at least the fact that in the Russian army there were little crooks ... there was a "soldier" and "officer" gun ...
      Of the serious drawbacks, only a long recharge. And how skillful people shoot from him - I saw that I would shoot from the PM.
  8. Catfish
    Catfish 6 March 2018 23: 22
    +2
    Thanks, Mark!

    They promised the details and fulfilled the promise. I studied with great interest. You were right - without Emil, most likely there would have been no Leon. And the rest: no matter how praised and scolded the Nagan revolver, the brothers left their mark on history.

    What will you enjoy next time? We wait. hi
    1. AlexMark
      7 March 2018 11: 10
      +2
      While I walk through old samples, I’m not risking new ones, the material has not been verified yet, I don’t want to disgrace myself again as with a Brazilian revolver recourse
  9. Catfish
    Catfish 7 March 2018 22: 49
    +2
    Quote: AlexMark
    While I walk through old samples, I’m not risking new ones, the material has not been verified yet, I don’t want to disgrace myself again as with a Brazilian revolver recourse


    Hi Mark.

    If according to old models, then I have photos of Luger in a hunting performance with a “historical” pedigree. If necessary, I’ll send it, just give the address.
    I have met such a model in the literature only once in the Kuznetsovsky catalog. But very small lithography and without optics.
    hi
  10. John22
    John22 8 March 2018 21: 40
    +2
    Very informative. A revolver arr. 1895 at that time was at the level of European designs and was a temporary measure. The advantage over large-caliber in 1 cartridge. Very reliable. Shooting is comfortable. Personally shot. Recharge during training is quite normal. Of course, I didn’t have to change the clip, but at that time semi-automatic pistols were just starting. And the clip (in its present form) was used only by Borchard, and Manlihera and others were charged from the rifle-type clip from the overhead when the bolt was retracted.
  11. Kibb
    Kibb 8 March 2018 23: 05
    +1
    Quote: Sasha75
    The topic has been discussed millions of times on different sites. It’s better not to take this or that and not give either this or that. All companies offered the purchase of products, but not the transfer of technology and the creation of production in Russia, sanctions at that time were also. The only one who transmitted the technology of machine tools and the arrangement of production in Russia was Nagan. In Russia, there was not even a machine tool park for manufacturing at least something like that. There was backwardness in everything. Nagan was taken for a short time to replace the Russian Smith Weson, as they say, so far it is better that it does not appear, but the longest for us is that it is temporary.

    This is the main problem of Nagan - it has remained almost eternal. Almost the same problem with TT and PM.
    But it was in 1895 that the adoption of "Nagan" could and was justified
  12. hohol95
    hohol95 9 March 2018 21: 28
    0
    wer2,
    Requirements for lawmakers to amend the Federal Law on Arms
    (Part 6)
    The lethal effect of a bullet is the amount of kinetic energy spent by a bullet in the human body (beast). Kinetic energy consists of the translational and rotational motion of the bullet.
    A bullet does the job - a killer action. Slaughter action (work) is measured in joules.
    The stopping effect of a bullet is the impulse transmitted by the bullet to the human body. By stopping action it is necessary to understand the blow that a bullet inflicts, which in hand-to-hand combat is enough to “skip a step” and pass the initiative - “skip a step, one pace” is enough to win a fencing match, boxing, wrestling.

    Example: 9 mm PM cartridge bullet is capable of becoming the standard in calculations - 300 J and a satisfactory stopping effect that suits the user. Practice shows that a blow of a certain strength is necessary, which is provided by the PM bullet.

    For military weapons, the stopping action is usually calculated only for a bullet of a pistol cartridge.
    1. rew2
      rew2 10 March 2018 18: 36
      0
      Do not read Bolshevik newspapers before breakfast.
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 10 March 2018 19: 55
        0
        This also applies to you, my dear - DO NOT READ BURGEOUR NEWSPAPERS AT BREAKFAST!
      2. hohol95
        hohol95 10 March 2018 20: 14
        0
        There is no strict definition of these terms, however, slaughter means, as a rule, the ability to inflict wounds that are incompatible with life, and the stopping effect means the ability to strike a target so hard that it "almost instantly (within 1-2 seconds, no more ) will cease to perform those actions that were performed at the time of the shot "(D. Towert).
        At the same time, the lethal action and the stopping effect may not be directly related: for example, the 37mm Flashball gun, which shoots rubber ball-bullets, has a significant stopping effect on a person, with practically no lethal one. And the 5.6x39mm MBO cartridge has a high lethal effect when shooting at medium and even large game (with an accurate hit), but death in the case of animals such as an elk or a wild boar will occur in minutes or even tens of minutes.
  13. Crane operator Nahamkinson
    Crane operator Nahamkinson 10 March 2018 01: 09
    +2
    aws4,
    One more time, wer2
    was on, under the nickname-karbin.
    1. aws4
      aws4 11 March 2018 19: 21
      +1
      yes yes you are right)))))))))))))))
  14. Kibb
    Kibb 10 March 2018 11: 18
    0
    Quote: wer2
    This is not just an official, this is a police gun. And the army service can only be in the caliber of 7,62 mm (with us). That's how gun, of the same power, just a gun.

    I did not quite understand why it was only 7.62. This is the same “service army” and “policeman” under 9-PM, the service one was also IZH71. Nagannovsky cartridge frankly weak
    Quote: wer2
    Maybe. The only problem is that we did not have an army pistol during WW2. Therefore, it is not clear how this experience was received.
    He was with the Germans, but not with all. It was Walter. But not Luger.

    Well, based on your requirements for an army pistol, only the United States and Germany had them, and if we proceed from the requirements of the military for a certain period of time, then the TT is quite an army for its time (as if to me personally, he ..., Well, I do not like him)
    Quote: wer2
    APS could be and was only a misunderstanding. He did not become and cannot become any of the known types of individual small arms.

    They tried to shove the unbeatable into it - this resulted in a lot of weight with a weak cartridge, but the note that fully automatic pistols are generally not too polar, regardless of ...
    1. rew2
      rew2 10 March 2018 18: 35
      0
      Quote: Kibb
      I don’t quite understand why it’s only 7.62. Here’s the same “army service” and “policeman” under 9-PM

      For army weapons, PM is weak. And he doesn’t break anything. Therefore it is a police gun. Also official, but not army. And the army service pistol, he is of the same power. Only armor can penetrate. With a caliber of 7,62 mm.
      Quote: Kibb
      official also was and is IZH71

      This is rubbish.
      Quote: Kibb
      Nagannovsky cartridge frankly weak

      Yes, weak. 250 J for the Nagan cartridge versus 300 J for the PM. But at its 250 Joules, a Nagan bullet pierces more than a PM bullet. And they "destroy" them equally badly. Therefore, the gun (if you do not remember that this is a revolver) is more suitable for the army as a service weapon than the PM.
      Quote: Kibb
      they were only in the USA and Germany

      Not mine, but they were only with them. The Britons for some reason preferred revolvers.
      Quote: Kibb
      based on the requirements of the military for a certain period of time, the TT is quite an army for its time

      There was nothing army in it. He flew only far, but this is a small advantage, but rather a sign of sportiness. And so, did not "destroy" (guaranteed) even when fired at point blank range. In addition, the small caliber + high power give a large percentage of wounds right through. And this is "marriage at work."
      The Mauser cartridge (interchangeable with the TT), the Germans did not take into the army during WWI. Armed with weapons on the Mauser Export cartridge (1 mm). They understood a lot about weapons.
      Quote: Kibb
      but note that fully automatic pistols are generally not too polar regardless of ...

      And nobody needs it. Even CAs are not needed.
      1. Kibb
        Kibb 10 March 2018 18: 46
        +3
        You remind me of a samurai. Moreover, it was in the image in which his image was conveyed to us by American pop culture.
        Set yourself an impossible task, and successfully fight it
        1. rew2
          rew2 10 March 2018 19: 00
          0
          Quote: Kibb
          Set yourself an impossible task, and successfully fight it

          Yes, the task is impossible. To overcome mythology, woven from all kinds of sometimes very unrealistic rumors, I clearly will not succeed. And if we also bear in mind censorship widely practiced in RuNet (mainly pro-Soviet) ... Therefore, I am not fighting, I perceive all this as a joke.
          I joke so briefly. When it is successful, and when not. drinks
          1. Kibb
            Kibb 10 March 2018 21: 36
            +2
            Well, for example, I quite often understand what you're talking about, but sometimes it puts you so ...
            Well, what option is acceptable in the late 20s to replace Nagan?
      2. Dmitry Bogun
        Dmitry Bogun 11 June 2019 04: 31
        0
        Mauser cartridge 9 mm, was recognized as excessively powerful and uncomfortable. Therefore, the vast majority of Mauser pistols were produced under 9 Pair or 7.63 Mauser.
  15. Sewer krainiy
    Sewer krainiy 11 March 2018 22: 27
    +2
    Yeah. I read an interesting topic for me. First, practitioners spoke out, fired from the Nagan revolver under discussion and the above pistols, I agree with them. Theorists - A.B. Beetle "Small arms. Revolvers, pistols, rifles, submachine guns, machine guns" in hand. Secondly, I shot a lot from TT, PM, APS and Nagan, I can compare. Thirdly: the weapon mentioned above is a personal weapon of the command (mainly) army or police, melee weapons and each for its own time. Therefore, comparing their characteristics (1900 and 2000) is incorrect. My opinion on weapons. Nagan - reliable as a hammer, not without reason in the films they showed how they knock down the locks with his handle. Even with the cocked trigger, if the trigger is not pressed, even though the anvil knocks - will not fire. When the trigger is broken, the safety bar will be substituted earlier. I had to repair a lot of them (mainly the non-rotation of the drum at the next cocking). Depreciation, however. There was one even in 1904. They shoot very accurately ... but it also depends on the shooter wink There is no return, as we said - how to shoot with a finger. Slaughter force ... at the time I do not know, at the present - it should be understood, the cartridges are about 60-70 years old, still military. Recharge the drum, well ... what is it.
    TT - a powerful weapon (here someone said that sports). The cartridges of the TT pistol and the PPSh machine gun are interchangeable. With skills it hits very well. It was necessary to repair, mainly due to wear of the mating joints of the movable barrel, the skew of the cartridge when reloading after a shot ... old age affects.
    PM is weaker than TT, in my opinion, but, as they say in the literature, a greater stopping effect. I don’t know, did not check wink But with certain skills both at 25 and 50 meters it works well.
    APS, in my opinion, is generally a fairy tale, and if also with a butt ... the cartridge would be more powerful for him. It’s as if removed from armament, but it’s as if used by special services ...
    1. Kibb
      Kibb 13 March 2018 12: 16
      0
      What is the tale of APS? Specifically possible?
      1. Sewer krainiy
        Sewer krainiy 13 March 2018 17: 32
        +1
        Convenient, 20-shooter, can shoot in bursts, with a butt at 25 meters - a bullet in a bullet ..., at 50 - a target. And look at the comments of the Sea Cat ... oh, how I agree with him !!!!
        1. Kibb
          Kibb 14 March 2018 09: 25
          0
          Why would it be removed from service only incomprehensibly. As for the rest, it’s one thing to use in special forces, and another thing is the general army pistol - like a pistol for constant wearing in the army, it is heavy with a weak cartridge, like PP it is completely lost to Scorpio. It’s really good gun, but Not it is necessary to substitute concepts - one thing is a weapon for special use, and another is why it was created.
  16. Catfish
    Catfish 11 March 2018 23: 28
    +1
    Quote: Sewer Krainiy
    Yeah.
    TT - a powerful weapon (here someone said that sports). The cartridges of the TT pistol and the PPSh machine gun are interchangeable. With skills it hits very well. It was necessary to repair, mainly due to wear of the mating joints of the movable barrel, the skew of the cartridge when reloading after a shot ... old age affects.
    PM is weaker than TT, in my opinion, but, as they say in the literature, a greater stopping effect. I don’t know, did not check wink But with certain skills both at 25 and 50 meters it works well.
    APS, in my opinion, is generally a fairy tale, and if also with a butt ... the cartridge would be more powerful for him. It’s as if removed from armament, but it’s as if used by special services ...


    Regarding Stechkin, I completely agree with you, I had a chance to shoot from him, and more than once. And the secret services really still use it and will surely use it for a long time. When cleaning rooms as an auxiliary weapon. And about the weakness of the cartridge ... You probably imagine the consequences of getting a short burst from five to ten meters into the bulletproof vest of almost any class. Punch certainly will not break, but the pain shock is provided.
    If here someone calls the TT a sports pistol, then let all the other models under the same cartridge attribute to this class of weapons, including and Mauser K - 96, the same cartridge.
    He served with Makar for three years. My deputy technical officer of the battalion used to say that "a tanker needs a PM only to shoot himself when the tank is finished," I can’t disagree with him.
    But with Nagan, unfortunately, he had no business.
    hi
  17. VeteranVSSSR
    VeteranVSSSR 12 March 2018 22: 06
    -1
    Quote: Kibb
    Well, for example, I quite often understand what you're talking about, but sometimes it puts you so ...
    Well, what option is acceptable in the late 20s to replace Nagan?

    Yes, I completely agree with you, there was no replacement for the gun. Sugar was something to eat, but you had to chop it.
    1. Kibb
      Kibb 13 March 2018 12: 05
      0
      I didn’t talk about this at all, the browning design can already be done under any cartridge in those years, unless there will be problems with the Mauser Export, but it’s also possible. But When will this gun appear in the Red Army? But Nagan needed to be changed before the WWII, but you won’t jump out of your pants - as usual, all “There is no money, but you stay there”, and here with the TT we went along the path “cheaply and cheerfully”. And for the rest, I wrote above there - if you produce one sample with modernizations (the same Nagan) for 50 years, then it will automatically become legendary
  18. Tank hard
    Tank hard 4 May 2018 08: 48
    0
    aws4,
    It is pointless to argue with some individuals and you should not throw beads. Just laugh and that's it.