Recycling again - with and without emotion

53
Recycling again - with and without emotionOn the military-technical information field for the caring inhabitant, the issue of ammunition disposal emerged as clear leaders. She left behind even the hot topic of European missile defense, which is understandable: missile defense for the overwhelming majority is speculative and abstract, and the explosions at arsenals and training grounds are here, outside the window!

Disasters in arsenals, human casualties among specialists engaged in explosions, and a surge of protest speeches by the population, demanding to protect people from man-made earthquakes, created a wave of competent and informed speeches and publications that shed light on the situation and offer various ways to solve the problem. The situation seemed to be changing for the better, the government was about to adopt the “Industrial utilization of weapons and military equipment for the 2011 – 2015 years and for the period up to the 2020 year” program, designed to answer all questions. Finally, in November, the long-awaited 2011 program was approved - and nothing really changed. Although the benefit of the discussion was all the same: the military involved in the conversation had to reveal previously carefully stored numbers and plans. Neither of them pleased.

The Ministry of Defense continues to remain not only the main customer, but also the main executor of the works for disposal.

Called to reassure the public with optimistic reports that work is underway to transform arsenals into a “perfectly managed, predictable, holistic system for the storage and disposal of ammunition”, on the contrary, cause even more concern.

There are several reasons for concern, and they are all tightly interconnected.

The first is that all bravura statements confirm that it’s not the industry that “is responsible for the generation of these munitions, and should be disposed of them,” but the military themselves, are engaged in recycling.

Secondly, recycling continues to be carried out by the only available military method - open blasting, which poisons the ecology and makes the population of villages and towns constantly jump.

The third - behind the harmonious word "recycling" hide primitive destruction. That is, throwing good into a landfill with the difference that, in the role of a landfill, it is our air and land at the landfills.

MILITARY OFFICE OR INDUSTRY?

Proper disposal is a knowledge-intensive, technological, and environmentally minimally harmful process. Almost always for its implementation requires special production, control processes and technology. All this is absolutely not typical for the structure of the defense department.

Why did the Ministry of Defense privatize defense utilization work? There is one reason - the endowment of the military department with commercial functions. Someone came up with a "bright thought" - to instruct the Ministry of Defense "to support itself." So, in the end, the head of the department became a man who absolutely did not understand in military affairs, but he was completely well-versed in trade. In the “Arbat Military District”, “female” commercial domes quickly grew like mushrooms, and they began to sell land and objects, save on purchases of domestic weapons and at the same time throw a budget for the purchase of foreign weapons with a broad gesture.

It is clear that the transfer of all means for life support and the authority to spend them to the military ministry removed the headache of the government, but at the same time, on the other hand, this created a very dangerous state phenomenon in the state. Today, the Ministry of Defense has its own Ministry of Finance, Ministry of Trade, and even its industry - OJSC Rosoboronservis, established in accordance with the statutory documents "for profit" and "provision of services, including to foreign organizations."

The financial and material resources allocated to this “state”, its limits no longer leave, resolving through the “territory” of the military department. The Minister of Defense alone decides what and how to purchase, to whom to give contracts and what prices to set. And probably for the first time history the existence of a department on the direct orders of the head of government may respond: "I consider it inappropriate."

"Savings" on recycling "at the expense of domestic resources" - from the same series. At the same time, the privatization of the disposal of ammunition by their temporary user - the Ministry of Defense - causes direct damage to our defense industry, and the circulation of budgetary funds within the military department is rapidly undermining the very basis of the existence of specialized industrial enterprises. This was discussed by Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin.

The defense industry, by definition, exists to provide the defense needs of a country, not only in peacetime, but primarily in wartime. For this reason, enterprises are forced to maintain capacities that sometimes significantly exceed their current needs, the so-called mobilization reserve. Mobrezerv eats resources for maintenance, is taxed and a huge weight hangs on the cost of production, reducing its market competitiveness. " But these are our capacities that we keep for a rainy day. We are simply obliged to maintain these capacities, and the primitive market-based approach “buy where it is cheaper” is absolutely unacceptable here!

The Ministry of Defense behaves as if it exists in another country and the buildup of equipment and armaments during a threatened period or already during the war the French, Italians or Germans who have fallen into unexpected military-commercial mercy will provide the country. We are already witnessing ever more vivid manifestations of this - “Mistrali”, “Iveco”, German helmets, which are inferior to ours in protection, but with such a pleasant plastic chin strip!

Military enterprises exist for the production of products, that is, to begin the life cycle, and disposal. If military property warehouses are overstocked and production needs to be reduced, it means that a specific manufacturer still needs to be provided with work on the disposal of weapons and military equipment. Otherwise, the company will end. Taking the utilization away from defense enterprises, the Ministry of Defense takes away their means for existence and development in the interests of our country.

While the military was destroying the ammunition, the largest Avangard plant in the country was killed in Sterlitamak without work, calculated, among other things, for the disposal of 120 thousand shells per month. Our state has invested a lot of money in its modernization. By the December decree, the government identified him as the sole performer for the disposal of projectiles (although, probably, only in our country there can be seven "only" performers), and again they offer him whole 140 thousand shells for 2012 a year, that is, loading only for 35 work days . At the same time, the Ministry of Defense plans to explode almost one and a half million tons of ammunition. In fact, one state structure, the Ministry of Defense, ruins another state structure - a state-owned enterprise. This is commerce, turning into sabotage. What is more profitable for the state: so that the military allegedly saved on disposal or to keep the defense plant?

In the heat of controversy, another nuance of military disposal was left aside. One of the main achievements of the transformations in the Armed Forces is the transfer of auxiliary functions to contractors, reducing personnel to the minimum necessary to perform defense tasks. Say, the military will now focus only on combat readiness and combat training, which will provide an opportunity to raise the level and reduce the number. Now, it’s not the soldiers who are engaged in cleaning the territory in the military units, but the contractors, they also feed, water, dress and shoe the personnel. Perfectly! But why the whole division has been busy for a whole year not working out the fighting, but blowing up ammunition, taking bread from civilian specialists? The figures were voiced by Deputy Defense Minister General of the Army Dmitry Bulgakov: in 2012, 13 200 military personnel and 3200 units of equipment will take part in explosions.

EXPLODE AND DO NOT BREATHE

If the question of who should be disposed of can also with a stretch be called a reason for discussion, then there is no doubt about the harmful effects of the open detonation of ammunition on the environment.

In my younger years, I myself indirectly had a hand in undermining our missiles at Kapustin Yar. The spectacle is amazing, especially on an overcast winter day: an explosion of a bundle of eight “Pioneers” pierced a huge hole in heavy low clouds, and it was possible to bask for an hour under the rays of the bright sun. On this, however, all the charms ended.

I am not an ecologist, so I will rely on the work of four doctors of science, academics, laureates of state awards: “During the five months of 1988 of the year (August – December) at the Kapustin Yar range, it was destroyed by the method of undermining the 29 of the RSD-10 missiles. According to experts, during the explosion, about 918 tons of toxic substances were emitted into the atmosphere. Studies of the state of the environment during the explosion of the missiles were carried out by the Institute of Biophysics of the Ministry of Health of the USSR and NPO Typhoon of the USSR State Hydrometeorological Committee. Tests carried out at NPO Altai showed that the performance of composite solid-fuel rocket fuels (CPTT) for ejection during blasting on the surface is 0,07 cubic meters. m / kg, in TNT - to 0,04 cube. m / kg In other words, when a munition is blown up, a huge cloud of dust, saturated with poison, rises into the air.

In 1991, according to research results, the Interdepartmental Coordinating Scientific Council decided to consider ecologically-hygienic destruction of an SRTT using an explosive method unacceptable, and since then the disposal of strategic missiles has been almost the only utilization fragment completely transferred by the military industry and conducted under strict environmental control and ecologically the least harmful methods. Ten years ago, the Research Institute of Polymer Materials (Perm), which operates the SRTT utilization facility, three times sued the "green" ones that had become active - and successfully won all the processes. In this regard, my direct question to Mrs. Golikova and Mr. Onishchenko: what, the contents of smaller-scale munitions, which in the past two years have been bombarded as much as in previous 19 years, turned out to be absolutely harmless for the environment and with almost negligible performance to release?

Is the environmental monitoring of utilization undermining by the military today (observation material was only in the past year, the whole 1 341 200 t)? And if it is carried out, doesn’t it give grounds to conclude that it is necessary to “consider it unacceptable in ecological and hygienic terms” to destroy the ammunition using an open explosion method in general and make it obligatory to use only environmentally acceptable industrial methods?

The mentioned study of 20-year-old, by the way, did not affect in any way another aspect of explosions, which today is the main source of military conflict with the population, the acoustic impact. Meanwhile, according to scientists, it has no less, if not more influence on people. A few years ago, I was at a presentation in Utah testing the detonation of large-scale rocket fuel charges in various configurations. Then I was just struck by what gigantic efforts were spent on achieving the minimum level of the acoustic wave. The reason is simple - according to American law, the level of acoustic impact of the landfill on the nearest settlement is strictly regulated and controlled. And we do not have the relevant laws? Or we have no one to control their implementation?


At a military training ground near St. Petersburg, sappers prepare ammunition for disposal by the method of detonation.

MONEY FOR WIND

Used in discussions today, the term "recycling" is a fig leaf that shamefully covers up an unattractive fact: ammunition with residual value potential does not simply turn into nothing without any benefit, they are released into the atmosphere as a toxic mixture. Huge funds are spent on this process. Yes, and initiating funds are also worth something. Add to this the cost of reclamation of landfill lands, according to some data, the component is more than 2 million rubles. for 1 ha. These are simply deferred expenses. Today, we will make a guess, but we will report it, and in ten years we will carry out with a pomp a campaign to restore these lands. Approximately the same as with the flooding of nuclear submarine reactors in the Kara Sea. Yesterday we were flooded, but today we are puzzled how to lift to clear the sea of ​​half-life products.

The damage to the environment from open explosions at the landfills does not lend itself to financial expression at all - it is exorbitant. Meanwhile, everything that flies up into the air and turns the soil into a poisoned mass at landfills is a valuable raw material. The typical figures of the return potential are fixed in black and white in the recycling program as one of the main tasks of its implementation: “... to involve more than 3,5 million tons of ferrous metals into the economic turnover, about 520 thousand tons of non-ferrous, 35 tons of precious metals, 114 thousand tons of explosives and powders.

I want to ask, with the help of some kind of black, white or maybe green magic, will the Ministry of Defense return these prescribed and expected metals and gunpowder to physical condition after they blow up the air?

And to complete the picture: according to General Bulgakov, in 2011 – 2013 years, it was undermined or planned to undermine 4,8 million tons of ammunition. Experts say that in terms of weight, explosives and metals in their composition are distributed approximately 50 to 50. Accordingly, about two years 2,4 million tons of metal will be scattered on the blast fields and adjacent areas. At the cost of a ton of mixed scrap metal about 5 thousand rubles. the volume of losses will be 12 billion rubles. This is equal to the amount of funding from the federal budget for the entire recycling program for three years. Why, for all the glaring obviousness of mismanagement and harm, nothing changes?

The military, as a spell, repeats, in their opinion, an iron argument: the allegedly capabilities of the industry make it possible to utilize the necessary amount of 6,5 mln. Tons only for 20 years, which, in their opinion, is an unacceptably long period. It is necessary to immediately reduce the number of stored ammunition to 3 million tons, which will ensure their “100 percent fire and explosion safety”. Therefore, it is necessary to blow everything up beyond the specified number at an accelerated pace, and to report back to 1 in January and 2015 of the year to wake up with a “streamlined logistic centers system.

All this argument is good only for those who invented it, and built with serious overexposure.

Firstly, General Bulgakov, who voiced it, in his arithmetic calculations took into account only the utilization possibilities of industry that exist today. If there is scope of work and guarantees that the won tender will not be taken away by the military in violation of all laws (as it happened earlier), enterprises will easily increase their capacity based on the most advanced technologies, give them only a stable perspective. Accordingly, it will no longer be about 20's, but about a more acceptable length of time.

Secondly, the general spoke about the low utilization productivity when using the most extensive method - through disassembly. But it is not a secret to anyone that they are widely used throughout the world for recycling and controlled detonation with the purification of the resulting gases and with the collection of fragments. It provides recycling much faster, without an environmental catastrophe, without unreasonable acoustic effects and with the collection of recyclable metal.

Third, suppose an avalanche-like elimination solves the problem of excess ammunition before 1 in January of 2015. But even those that remain in the “superreprenals of the future” will once earn time and go into the category of recyclable ones. What to do with them?

Fourth, with less ammunition and more organized storage, the risk of explosions is reduced. But it will never be zero. "100% fire and explosion safety" is a utopia. To justify the explosives race with this false goal is to deliberately mislead the public and the country's leadership.

Fifthly, who said that 20 years is prohibitively long and that the problem of storing excess ammunition must be solved by all means by January 1 and 2015? To reduce the risk, it is necessary to transfer the storage sites of the ammunition to be disposed of to the Ministry of Industry or the newly created Directorate in the image of the structure involved in the destruction of chemical weapons. Then the Ministry of Defense will immediately eliminate all problems. The industry received ammunition will disperse on arsenals and landfills for longer storage and there they will disassemble or also undermine, but by civilized, environmentally less harmful and scientifically calculated methods. Then “Oboronservis” will not be in monopoly feeding in violation of the law on public procurement, and will be on a par with other enterprises for profit.

RUSSIAN QUESTION: WHAT TO DO?

With the almost complete absence of demand for real industrial disposal of ammunition from the main customer - the Ministry of Defense - the profile science and technology in our country is alive and continues to develop. It is regrettable that parallel processes continue in the country. On the one hand, the military department blows up at the landfills “everything that is badly lying”, on the other hand, thinking people in the state apparatus continue to put money into the state defense order for the development of recycling technologies.

And enterprises that are interrupted by fasting rations continue to allocate money from very scanty profits to develop their own technologies “for the future”. It is thanks to the care of the latter that the Ministry of Industry and Trade has turned into the “Catalog of technological equipment for ammunition recycling” issued for the narrow circle. The 80 technologies and products presented in it cover the entire recycling cycle.

In general, our developers and manufacturers of recycling equipment turned out to be practically cornered. The lack of demand for equipment makes it impossible to sell it on the domestic market, and the external market is almost closed. In order to simply disseminate information about the most primitive product, it is necessary to obtain an equal number of papers with its approval by weight. If the foreign buyer shows interest, the process of pricing, signing the contract and delivery will turn into completely different, “securely licensed” hands, and then the process will either stall or the enterprise will get only a penny.

According to some reports, Deputy Prime Minister Rogozin, exploiting his recent NATO contacts, initiated in March the start of a corresponding dialogue in Brussels, during which more than 20 Russian technologies were successfully introduced to Western partners.

What can be done to ensure that industrial disposal of ammunition is in demand? It would be incorrect and uncharacteristic for a Russian person not to try to answer this question.

In October last year, at a specialized conference, experts unanimously noted that the problems in the field of recycling in our country today have changed significantly. In the initial stages, the problems were insufficient funding. With the advent of financing, the problem of personnel has become acute, they decided it too. The main problem remained - organizational. In the Ministry of Defense, despite the abundance of those who want to steer contracts, in reality, the issues of disposal are handled by a very limited group of mostly unimportant, almost random people.

In fact, there is no real owner. Meanwhile, it is only necessary to create a directorate of the federal program. All the legal framework required for this has existed for a long time, several federal program directorates have been successfully operating in the country. There are no problems with personnel either — there are people in the government itself who have been trying, with varying success, for several years to put the state’s interests above someone’s departmental ambitions.

The creation of such a directorate, subordinate to the government, in one movement would put everything in its place and make it possible to do each of its work: the Ministry of Defense - to defend the Motherland, the industry - to bring cartridges and dispose of unused ones. Of course, in addition to creating a recycling program directorate, much more can and must be done.

For ease of understanding, the necessary actions can be presented at the traditional three levels.

At the tactical level in the near future:

- a government order to prohibit the disposal of ammunition by the method of open blasting, with the exception of defective ones that require destruction in this way;

- to transfer the issues of disposal of ammunition and military equipment from the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Defense of the established Directorate - with specific instructions on the mandatory use of only environmentally friendly methods;

- use the tested site of the Interpolitex exhibition for the gradual expansion of the volume of the annual international conference on disposal in order to accumulate information on relevant issues, taking it under the patronage of the government apparatus.

At the operational level in the medium term:

- to create a system of combined arsenals of the Defense Ministry and utilization enterprises of the Directorate and the Ministry of Industry for ensuring a unified system of the military property life cycle (for example, the arsenal of the Strategic Missile Forces Pibanshur, on which the disposal facility is located, is operated by a joint-stock company).

- to provide comprehensive support for the exchange of scientific and technical information on recycling technologies both domestically and with the involvement of foreign resources, for which purpose state agencies and corporations involved in working with ammunition are required to support this exchange at financial and organizational levels in order to select the most advanced technologies;

- create a self-sustaining system of economic incentives for recycling using technologies that maximize the reuse of components;

- remove all structures created for commercial activities - Rosoboronkontrakt, Rosoboronpostavka, the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, the pricing policy department and other organizations - from the Defense Ministry and transfer them directly to the government apparatus.

At the strategic level in the long term:

- to create on the basis of the military-industrial complex a full-time structure headed by a deputy prime minister who will unite non-core organizations that have been withdrawn from the Defense Ministry, will act as a government contractor for all defense contracts and have real policy power both with respect to users of military property and its utilization producers - Roskosmos, Rosatom, Ministry of Industry and Trade, state corporations. This will make it possible to concentrate the pricing policy in one hand and put an end to the endless war of the Ministry of Defense with industry.

- Adopt a law on mandatory primary purchase of national products for the needs of the defense and the state apparatus. The decision on the second part regarding the vehicles has already been made by the government - it is necessary to expand it and raise it to the level of federal law;

- to make changes to the Tax Code that provide for exemption from taxation of mobilization capacities and the implementation of contracts for defense and state needs, this will avoid unnecessary deduction from the useful turnover of up to 25% of the funds allegedly spent today on these goals, and in fact are moving senselessly on idle in a vicious circle "budget - enterprise - tax service - budget" and losing weight due to sticking to the "walls of pipes", pumping the money banks.

Thus, you can do a lot without capital expenditures and with tangible returns. It is only necessary to really strive for the best, objectively look at the state of affairs, not be afraid to pull the situation into the light, discuss and correct or even throw out all that is harmful, useless, hangs with ballast and does not work for the benefit of the whole country.
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  1. Dust
    +7
    April 22 2012 16: 37
    Too complicated article for many of the local inhabitants - it hurts a lot of letters to read!
    The current disposal of ammunition is an ordinary wrecking, as, however, almost all the reforms of recent times ...
    1. Dust
      -3
      April 22 2012 16: 47
      Here are the first confirmations, who would doubt ...
      1. +3
        April 22 2012 18: 08
        so you're a sad and sad guy)
    2. +6
      April 22 2012 17: 43
      Quote: Dust
      Too complicated article for many of the local inhabitants - it hurts a lot of letters to read!

      Dust +
      wink
      But, I think, after all, most have read. And the complexity is only for a generation of years since the 90s (maybe from the 85th.)
      To the author, too, + Not indifferent and relatively competent presentation.
    3. +1
      April 22 2012 17: 55
      Russia began to dispose of ammunition "Destroyer"

      Servicemen at military ranges have begun to master a new method of disposing of old ammunition, writes Rossiyskaya Gazeta. The essence of the technique is to use a new device called the R-40 "Destroyer", which literally burns out the explosive inside the ammunition. The device passed field tests in 2011, and at the beginning of February the military began to use it as usual.


      The "Destroyer" is a small metal tube with a special incendiary mixture inside which is initiated by an electrical impulse. When the charge ignites, a powerful hot jet stream is created, which breaks through the walls of the ammunition and burns out the explosive inside it. It is curious that the military receives "Destroyers" through barter. The Russian Ministry of Defense has agreed with the Ural Pyrotechnic Plant, which developed the device, to supply it free of charge. Under the terms of the agreement, the plant's specialists carry out the disposal of ammunition at the Alduysk test site under the control of the military, after which they receive at their disposal hulls from shells, bombs and mines. Thus, the enterprise provides itself with a constant supply of metal. In early February 2012, it became known that the Russian Ministry of Defense until 2015 will spend 90 billion rubles on the construction of new and reconstruction of old arsenals. Currently, six million tons of ammunition are in the arsenals of the Russian military department, half of which have expired. Three million tons of old shells, bombs and mines planned to be disposed of by January 2014
      1. 755962
        +3
        April 22 2012 18: 18
        In Western Europe, the main burden on the disposal and sale of military property is assigned to private and commercial structures. And there they take this issue very seriously. And we? The recycling program is really expensive, and the current Ministry of Defense is not actually involved in this program. Outsourcing games lead to the fact that ammunition cutting lines begin to attract completely untrained civilian personnel that are not controlled by anyone, there is no discipline, and very often disasters and explosions occur because people start to try to do things out of greed what can’t be done.
      2. Neighbor
        +2
        April 22 2012 18: 24
        Quote: s-t Petrov
        Russia began to dispose of ammunition "Destroyer"

        In our country, in the Chelyabinsk region, it has already begun to be used. Because it allows you to silently dispose of ammunition, and we have residential villages near the proving ground in the region, which used to suffer greatly from noise.
        Even on the news they showed him about 2 weeks ago - this destroyer.
        1. +1
          April 22 2012 22: 35
          soon it will be applied everywhere
      3. -1
        April 23 2012 15: 58
        New technology for the destruction of ammunition

        The sappers of the Central Military District, with the help of specialists from the Ural Pyrotechnic Plant (UPZ), introduced a new industrial technology for the destruction of rockets (RS) at the Tyumen training ground, which made it possible to completely abandon blasting operations. A new method, which consists in simulating a launch from launchers and burning solid fuel of missile parts buried in the ground at prepared sites, was known earlier, but was tested on an industrial scale and was introduced this week.



        Today, the landfill has reached a daily norm of 125 tons. The introduced technology has made it possible to attract UPZ professionals to industrial utilization, many of which are engineers in the reserve.



        At present, in the Tyumen region they are destroying RS without warheads; in the fall, utilities will be fully loaded. By this time, the machines developed at the UPZ will be installed at the training ground, with the help of which shells can be easily disassembled into three parts - combat, missile and tail. Warheads will be disposed of using the P-40 Destroyer system, missile units will be disposed of by burning, shanks after dismantling can be sent to the scrap without any additional manipulations.



        The Tyumen landfill is the second in the Central Military District, at which the transition from the destruction of overhead charges to disposal was completed. In early April, thanks to the use of the Destroyer, blasting operations were stopped at the Shirokny Karamysh training ground in the Saratov Region. In the near future it is planned to transfer the sites of the Greater Urals, Kemerovo, Novosibirsk and Irkutsk Regions to detonation-free technologies, and in the future, all polygons of the Central Military District.

        In 2012, the Central Military District will eliminate more than 650 thousand tons of ammunition, of which more than 100 thousand tons will be disposed of at industrial enterprises, in specialized workshops of arsenals and storage bases. The work was started on January 20. They involved about 2,5 thousand military personnel and 600 special vehicles. Currently, engineers from the Central Military District and defense industry experts have destroyed and disposed of more than 150 thousand tons of ammunition. The daily rate is about 2 thousand tons, of which about 20 percent is eliminated using new technologies without explosions.



        voila.

        or cry again?

        source - http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/16753/
  2. BAT
    +7
    April 22 2012 16: 49
    And you, I suppose, are an alien inhabitant and for you the text is not very complicated. We are very smart and, unlike the majority of readers, are able to read a very large number of letters. Where to all of us here the poor and wretched to your intellectual heights. Tokmo, if you are so smart, then you don’t go on a building there in Uzbekistan?
    1. Dust
      -8
      April 22 2012 16: 53
      The text is simple for me, you are absolutely right!
      Only here in this text it is not necessary to scream in cheers-patriotic ecstasy ...
      Today I have again made sure, on other branches, that for many of the readers here the irony of the posts really does not reach ...
      1. 755962
        +3
        April 22 2012 17: 27
        Technical issue. Express your opinion without irony.
        1. Dust
          -6
          April 22 2012 17: 31
          The problem is not so technical - the problem is more organizational and not for the newly recruited "thought giants" from MO ...
          1. -1
            April 22 2012 17: 51
            who are you to criticize?

            he knows the problems here. such as you, who are watching an action movie and telling how he would hit from the turntable what is behind - enough. genius thoughts b * i
            1. Dust
              -10
              April 22 2012 18: 02
              And I thought - where is the local holy fool?
              1. +5
                April 22 2012 18: 03
                tell me how to manage the country, otherwise everything is nothing and you are a smart guy
                you criticize MO and know how to do better

                1. S_mirnov
                  0
                  April 22 2012 20: 09
                  I will answer for Dusta. It is necessary to manage the camp on the basis of the interests of the citizens of this country living now and in the future. If you decide to dispose of a certain amount of ammunition stored in warehouses, then replace them with new ones. You can’t replace it - don’t dispose of it, it can be stored for much longer, and if the warehouses explode, then Putin’s banderlog should look for the traces of the US State Department, the boiling energy of the gop patrites, so to speak, back on track. And to utilize missiles is a crime in general - it is better to use them for exercises. These are not shells, the gun barrel does not wear out, and it is not clear which is better, a worn gun barrel or an untrained artilleryman.
                  1. +2
                    April 22 2012 20: 55
                    did you serve in the army?

                    not far from me at the training ground (I was good in the trench, I would crap - I say it as it is) a rocket flew out of the channel (stood Tunguska) and fell about 4 meters from the car), hesitated, then stopped hissing, but it was sizzling.
                    The crew jumped out. Then the carrier returned to the tank. started a car. drove back. Kipesh was - Mama Do not Cry.

                    It was very dumb. when she smoked nearby us.

                    so I refute everything that you wrote above - and call it nonsense.

                    if such a brave one - use rockets that were produced before your birth as targets or as a hammer, I * fuck what you decide - such a brave guy). good luck)

                    for all the same - with your pursuit and attitude to the army - with which I have a bunch of exceptionally good and good memories - better use them as a calathek or hammer
                    1. Dust
                      -6
                      April 22 2012 22: 10
                      Yes, yes, yes, a very famous retelling of the old song - the folklore of rocket launchers - about how the rocket fell and the calculation escaped from it ...
                      Recently here, on the site, she was remembered ...
                      1. +5
                        April 22 2012 22: 19
                        listen boy

                        I served in Yeysk. in the air defense of the NE of the Russian Federation. in part 37115.

                        and this incident was with me - during the shooting - at the training ground, which is in the same Yeysk. and I do not retell. I say what I saw and what I felt inside at the sight of that rocket.

                        apparently this case was not unique? did you think of such an idea?

                        Or can I tell you how my AK jammed and didn’t shoot, because the cartridges were damp (the foreman said so, I can’t pretend to say so)? And you tell me now - what did you hear that Ak does not fail and that this can not be?
                      2. S_mirnov
                        0
                        April 23 2012 23: 32
                        Nehren was to bring the ammunition to a state of non-shooting! otherwise our teachings were costly!
              2. +3
                April 22 2012 23: 27
                Quote: Dust
                And I thought - where is the local holy fool?

                What, looked in the mirror?
          2. +3
            April 22 2012 23: 25
            Quote: Dust
            the problem is more organizational and not for the newly recruited "thought giants" from MO ..

            Well, apply your mental potential instead of the "giants of thought", what, the gut is thin, or are you intended for higher goals?
            1. Dust
              -6
              April 22 2012 23: 28
              With pleasure - you appoint me? When do you order? I can start after the May holidays ...
  3. BAT
    +6
    April 22 2012 17: 20
    and no one was going to cheer or smear the squeals in cheer-patriotic fervor or ecstasy (as you like best). Nobody has had time to comment on this very article, and you, my dear, have begun to blame everyone present for cheers and lack of a sense of humor ...
    Whoever hurts, he says that ...
    Well, if someone does not understand your humor, then something is wrong with your humor. Laugh at your own humor.
    And here everyone laughs at a good joke, even those who are a little taut with humor.
    1. Dust
      -8
      April 22 2012 17: 24
      And what is there to comment on - the situation is extremely clear!
      And the author clearly prescribed everything - wrecking is pure water, such an organization for the disposal of ammunition ...
      1. 101
        101
        0
        April 22 2012 18: 13
        Hear a grammar here, we have a companion to that. Since you think what to do, then wrecking ali how to entrap us al in a bunch to go astray.
  4. +3
    April 22 2012 17: 46
    In September last year I was on vacation at home in a small Siberian village. When the autumn air shuddered from the distant shock wave, out of habit, he raised his head and began to look with his eyes to look at the inverse trace of the supersonic plane that had passed, but, to his surprise, he did not find it. And indeed there was no rumble of aircraft turbines in the empty sky. Then, at different intervals, the air shuddered several more times. Then I realized their reason - explosions of ammunition at a remote training ground. By the way, in front of it in a straight line about 250 kilometers ... Draw your own conclusions.
    1. +1
      April 22 2012 18: 11
      250 kilometers? you're probably really scared, right? shells bursting the entire thousand kilometers fly through Siberia)
      1. +5
        April 22 2012 18: 46
        Acoustics is a complicated thing .... But only a stupid person is not afraid of an explosion. And for you I give an excerpt from the article, do not consider copyright infringement:

        The Novosibirsk and Kemerovo governors are asking to clean up the disposal of ammunition at the landfills in Shilovo and Yurg. The reason for the statements of the heads of the two regions was the work that was carried out last weekend - explosions were heard in Novosibirsk, and vibrations were felt in the Kuzbass mines, a correspondent of Taigi.info reports October 24.

        According to the press service of the Government of the Novosibirsk Region, Governor Yurchenko signed a telegram addressed to the Commander-in-Chief of the Ground Forces of the Russian Federation, Alexander Postnikov, demanding that urgent measures be taken to complete the disposal of ammunition at the Shilov training ground as soon as possible.

        “All terms for the disposal of ammunition at the Shilovsky training ground have been violated. In the very near future, the undermining of bookmarks of high-power ammunition should be stopped. In addition, an increase in ammunition disposal is unacceptable. Last weekend, the residents of the city of Novosibirsk felt the echoes of the explosions. The Novosibirsk region is not a combat disposal zone, ”the press service quoted the head of the region.

        The press service of Tuleyev said that the Kemerovo governor appealed to the Minister of Defense Anatoly Serdyukov and the commander of the brigade of the Yurginsky garrison Arthur Shemaitis with a request to restore order with the disposal of ammunition in this military unit.

        According to the Kuzbass administration, on Sunday a powerful explosion thundered at the training ground, as a result of which glass flew out in the houses of neighboring villages.

        “Frightened people ran out into the streets, thinking that they were echoes of a powerful earthquake in Turkey. A flurry of calls from worried citizens fell on the city and regional administration. We felt the consequences of the explosion of ammunition in Yurg and the miners of Kuzbass. In some industrial areas of the mines, noticeable fluctuations in the earth's crust were felt, which caused great concern among the miners, ”the administration’s press service said in a statement.

        According to Aman Tuleyev, all work on the disposal of ammunition was left to the performers, and it seems that the work is carried out on the principle of who will explode the most. In the event of problems at the coal enterprises of the region associated with caving, responsibility, as the head of the region believes, should be borne by the Ministry of Defense.

        More details: http://www.kurer-sreda.ru/2011/10/24/52735
  5. 0
    April 22 2012 17: 48
    In the “Arbat Military District”, “female” commercial heads quickly grew like mushrooms - and began to sell land and objects, save on purchases of domestic weapons, and at the same time throw a budget at the expense of buying a foreign one.

    after that, he didn’t read further
  6. +5
    April 22 2012 18: 01
    BL ... why use the equipment, demilitarize it and sell it to the public, modernize it and sell it to Africa, what the hell?
    For example, I would take a couple of messes of the second and a couple of armored personnel carriers 70, without question, at the residual value, the main thing is that the price is fair, for this technique.
    And what would they not be obliged to register with the traffic police when registering ... and you will restore it at your own expense, but here the jackals are different, give back with screeches.
    1. +5
      April 22 2012 18: 49
      And a lot of my friends would also not refuse, past the above, the same shishigi, krazy, urals - all this is being restored, plus a great help both in airsoft, fishing, hunting ... In case of war, we will recruit a couple of battalions , as they say, we’ll come with all our own, but the main thing is that the diesel fuel wasn’t ours ...
  7. +10
    April 22 2012 18: 08
    The Americans have the easiest way to recycle ... a couple of the urge of democracy and is empty in warehouses. Let the soldiers grind the equipment at the landfills in any weather ... and the shells will be written off and the equipment will wear out ... and what experience does the army have.
    1. +4
      April 22 2012 18: 53
      here it’s not a conversation about Americans, our deductible equipment is on target — this is in the best case, but usually it goes to China at the price of scrap metal, and nothing is removed, neither weapons, nor ZAS ...
    2. 755962
      0
      April 22 2012 18: 53
      Universal layout +
  8. +2
    April 22 2012 20: 26
    Again, Sergeant Petrov has his deep, scientifically sound knowledge of the subject ...
    I read it with Yaroslav Hasek - when Schweik dealt with similar issues ...

    I ask again: Petrov! Is there a topic on which you have no comments?
    1. +4
      April 22 2012 20: 35
      no. I am the matrix itself and my source is everything.

      and if in the case. then I have a good source - sdelanounas.ru there is everything with photographs and reports and specific links and reports from bloggers who travel with the camera to places. Recently, we went to the factory where they assemble the Ka-52. Very interesting.

      and you ?

      tell me the region or region, and I will tell you what exactly has been done in that area.
      I will bring you photographs from the field, I’ll tell you how much they invested in production and how many workers were hired specifically for enterprises


      Can you imagine the 21st century?) Already there is Internet everywhere, and the military has even teleconference bridges!)

      The generals now do not strain at all, and the military during the exercises covered the area equal to 57 Estonia with tropospheric communications
      http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/16380/


      it's me) by the way) now you understand why I have information? and therefore I’m just forced to write it here, because I see people commenting, not having fresh information on a specific place


      http://twower.livejournal.com/ - вот ещё один очень хороший источник, от куда я черпаю информацию.
      about the author of the blog -
      At the moment I work for the National Defense publication as a special correspondent. In 1998-2000, 2001 and 2008-2010, he served in the army, including in September 1999-June 2000, in 2001 - in Chechnya, August 2008-May 2010 - in Abkhazia at the 7th military base. The blog began in February 2009, talking about the current service, but now it switched to general army topics. In Chechnya, he did not perform any special feats, carried out orders, did the same as everyone else.


      I filter the sources. before there were more. which I advise everyone)
      1. -2
        April 22 2012 21: 15
        s-t Petrov,
        Well, now everything is clear, information is piled up, the topic is topical, - only knowledge and practice are not enough to evaluate everything correctly, but there is more than enough desire to "sound" laughing
        In short, the fourth power, the second oldest profession wassat
        1. 0
          April 22 2012 21: 34
          Specifically to which comment?

          that an explosion of 250 kilometers is far away? or what?
      2. Dust
        -6
        April 22 2012 22: 12
        But didn’t participate in the Crusades, a whistle with a hole?
        There are probably five times more such "veterans" of the Chechen events than real participants ...
        1. 0
          April 22 2012 22: 23
          What the fuck are you talking about here?

          you refute the rot you ... my words are facts. and do not whistle like a virgin.

          you yap. nothing more. Do you understand? .

          I did not take part in the database. the maximum that I saw was how the trains rode south to the war on 08.08.08/XNUMX/XNUMX and how we waited for orders to take us away. but they didn’t take us. and the brigade from the second half of the barracks (they even had a part with a different number) left for peace enforcement.

          now yap yum. blather something here. tell me where I told a lie? if you don’t say it, then you already understand who you are - yes?
      3. +2
        April 23 2012 08: 54
        The generals now do not strain at all, and the military during the exercises covered an area equal to 57 Estonia with tropospheric communications.

        why 57 Estonia, and not just Russia?
        1. -1
          April 23 2012 16: 07
          it was actually more relevant to consider in Georgia. I also thought about it))
      4. +1
        April 23 2012 10: 07
        Thanks. Well done.
  9. +2
    April 22 2012 20: 38
    This time nothing political, only personal experience. We go fishing early in the morning, it’s not entirely legal, and then the guys gasped at the Chebarkul training ground - my mother !! One must have a conscience, military citizens. After all, people are all around.
    1. -1
      April 22 2012 20: 42
      this is not to relax, doing poaching))
      1. 0
        April 23 2012 10: 43
        this is not to relax, doing poaching))

        smiled +1 laughing
  10. +3
    April 22 2012 21: 21
    A few words about recycling. Location Sverdlovsk region. We have a nearby Adui training ground. So explode be healthy! The plaster is poured, the front door walks (although it closes tightly). Today, during the explosion, I was in the attic, so rocking the construction seriously. Questions in connection with this:
    1. What prevented the use of these ammunition in exercises when they were air-conditioned? (I remember earlier the reduction in exercises was explained by the high cost of ammunition. And now, all the work on the production of these ammunition is harming us. We live in a martial law).
    2. Why it is impossible to produce not 10, but 20 explosions. but 2 times less power?
    3. Is the destruction of the stockpile of ammunition being replaced?
    4. Why did our military put on the civilian population (which they are called upon to protect) during the implementation of this disposal?
    1. 0
      April 22 2012 21: 38
      Eugene, they mostly dispose of ammunition of calibers that are no longer in service and use them for educational purposes as a dangerous haemorrhoids.
    2. Volkhov
      +4
      April 22 2012 22: 09
      Take a poster on GO, it clearly shows what explosions the earth shakes and glasses fly out for tens of kilometers, ordinary shells are easy to explode with a slowdown, like an industrial explosion, then you can hear a crack like from tearing matter from many successive explosions.
    3. 0
      April 23 2012 20: 35
      Regarding the latest news. Now (the last two days) explosions are audible, but there are no shocks and shocks. !!! Previously, the earthquake scale was 5 points. B .... while writing again it shook (and as usual it fell down on top) .......
  11. +5
    April 22 2012 21: 50
    The disposal problem did not form and did not arise in an instant. It has been accumulating for decades. After the collapse of the USSR, Russia had 180 arsenals, bases and warehouses, and by the time of the creation of a unified MTO system in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation - September 1, 2010 - there were 161 of them left.
    They accumulated a huge amount of ammunition of various calibers, which have no prospects of use both in their technical condition and storage conditions, which are a threat. In total, the RF Armed Forces stockpiles contained more than 9,5 million tons of ammunition. The Ministry of Defense attracted scientists to assess the prospects of these reserves, who modeled many scenarios for the development of various military operations, taking into account the forms and methods of warfare. We carried out the calculations and determined that the Armed Forces in the new look must contain no more than 3 million tons of conventional (non-nuclear) ammunition. Consequently, 6,5 million tons will remain unclaimed in any scenario.
    The Soviet defense industry produced annually 1 million - 1,2 million tons of ammunition. The pace of construction and commissioning of new storage facilities at arsenals noticeably lagged behind the pace of production. In addition, modern storage facilities at that time were built mainly in groups of troops abroad and in the border areas of a large state. In the early 90s, the production of ammunition in Russia decreased significantly. However, at the same time, when troops were withdrawn from abroad, about 3 million tons of ammunition were transferred to the territory of the Russian Federation. For their placement, outdoor areas are increasingly being used. Only 30% of the storage facilities were relatively well equipped and had storage facilities. But two-thirds of them required major repairs or reconstruction. Low protection of munition munitions in open areas and in dilapidated storage facilities led to accelerated wear of containers. Indeed, in open areas of a rocket, ammunition can be stored for no more than 5 years, while in capital repositories - 30 years. The current situation inevitably led to accelerated aging and the emergence of a large number of unusable and hazardous missiles and ammunition in circulation. As a result, over the entire post-Soviet period, the total volume of stored stocks gradually decreased by one and a half times, but at the same time, the share of completely unusable products increased from 5 to 26%.
    The Ministry of Defense came to the conclusion that it is necessary as soon as possible to bring stocks of ammunition in line with the real needs of the Armed Forces and create such storage conditions for them that guarantee 100 percent fire and explosion safety at all sites without exception. How to achieve a similar state of affairs? A separate meeting of the board of the Ministry of Defense at the beginning of 2010 was devoted to this issue.
    First of all, the possibilities of industrial enterprises were analyzed. It turned out that in recent years they could utilize no more than 200 thousand tons of ammunition per year. In addition, at the arsenals (with the planned reduction in their number), the capacity for disassembling ammunition in special workshops is not more than 100 thousand tons. The total output is 300 thousand tons per year. If we go exclusively through the mechanical dismantling of ammunition, then the disposal of 6,5 million tons would take more than 20 years
    The board of the Ministry of Defense made a decision on the disposal of ammunition that had served the established deadlines and was unsuitable for use at military training grounds. And since 2010, specially formed units have begun work on the detonation and burning of ammunition and explosive materials. So far (in less than two years), as much ammunition has been disposed of as it was possible to destroy in all the previous 19 years. Moreover, the main work was carried out in 2011, during which all missiles and ammunition of the 3rd category were disposed of. That is, all products whose guaranteed storage periods have expired and designers could no longer extend them further.
    Last year, 1 tons were destroyed by blasting and burning at 341 landfills, with the forces of 200 blasting groups. 65 thousand military personnel and 255 thousand units of automotive equipment were involved in the work. 12,6 thousand tons of ammunition were dismantled at arsenals, bases and warehouses. On the basis of contracts, 1,7 thousand tons were transferred to industrial enterprises for utilization.
    Given the amount of work done, in 2012 the military department intends to continue work in three areas.
    1. This is the transfer of ammunition for disposal to industrial enterprises. On October 26, a meeting was held at the Ministry of Defense with the participation of representatives of the Ministry of Industry and Trade, the state corporation Rostekhnologii, with the invitation of the heads of all industrial enterprises that can be disposed of by their technical equipment. Moreover, they were invited to each enterprise to determine the amount of work that they can carry out, to master over the next two years. And this amounted to 181,1 thousand tons per year.
    2. At the arsenals, taking into account the sequential disbandment of storage facilities, it is planned to disassemble 95,6 thousand tons.
    3. It is planned to destroy 1 million 723,1 thousand tons of ammunition by demolition. Explosive disposal of obsolete ammunition will be carried out at 46 training sites involving 13,2 thousand troops and 3,2 thousand units of automotive and special equipment.
    After that, the remaining 1 million 762,5 thousand tons, while maintaining the planned indicators, can be disposed of by the end of 2013. On January 1, 2014, 3 million tons of ammunition of the 1st and 2nd categories should remain in the Armed Forces. That is, there should not be a single munition that does not correspond to the storage period established for it.
    My webpage
  12. -2
    April 22 2012 21: 54
    drinks good ascetic comment

    so they work with the problem. and you can grieve on any topic)
  13. oldmen1973
    +3
    April 22 2012 22: 20
    Thanks to the administration for posting this article. Plus article, the problem is very urgent. After all, it not only describes the elementary carelessness of our military leadership, which, in order to achieve ITS, completely incomprehensible goals to me, destroys not only the environment, but, what is most terrible, human lives (after all, no one has scientifically evaluated the consequences of the release into the atmosphere hazardous substances during explosions). Just think - a federal recycling program has been underway since 2005, and during this time our science has been able to develop one single "Destroyer"! What does this mean? This, first of all, indicates the absence of an order from the Ministry of Defense and the defense industry for such developments. It is better to blow up the old, old-fashioned way, and then go around the landfill to collect the fragments! Nonsense, and more! That's why everyone is so cool, we spend tens of millions on website reconstruction!
    The second, important problem is to purchase arms and military equipment abroad! Yes, maybe abroad will help us, only with what and until what time? Suppose that at present these purchases are for the most part isolated, but the tender, as they say, is going up! At first they bought tents, now armored personnel carriers, ships, rifles? What's next? But the lack of orders from the defense industry is a reduction in jobs at factories, as a result of a loss of skills, etc. etc.
    But, in my opinion, someone in the government is thinking about this - it was not without reason that Rogozin came up with a new position. Another question is whether he will pull it or not. I don’t know, but I hope so. Hope, after all, dies last!
    There is only one conclusion - this country is a huge and complex mechanism where all departments and ministries must work together. And if you pull the blanket only in your direction, the other side will be cold. In parts, the chief of staff is responsible for coordinating the work of the services, but in the government, as you might guess, the prime minister ........ I will not develop the topic further, I’m tired of remembering him!
  14. -1
    April 22 2012 23: 37
    Do you smoke there, Dust? fool
  15. chukapabra
    +4
    April 23 2012 07: 05
    article (+)
    Our eternal lack of care, launching shells, and storing them for 5 years instead of 30 simply because there is no normal warehouse. During these 30 years of normal storage, due to the lack of normal depots, ammunition will be replaced 6 times (to release new ones and to dispose of old ones), how much money is wasted. But about this, everyone seems to be happy. The industry produces, the Moscow region utilizes, grandmothers are sawing everywhere. Explosions, people repairing houses, breathing muck --- why. Why no one counts our money, our taxes that are thrown away simply. ? Disposal of waste? 212 century, poorly trained soldiers die, and factories designed for recycling stand. I want to ask a simple question why? The answer is probably the same to the point of banality, apparently somewhere there is a woodwork (WMO) with a huge circular saw and there they saw loot day and night. After the explosion, how do you control what exploded, how much was. A solid black hole.
    Now it’s clear why the Moscow Region is building a house for generals. In Moscow, it’s 7 million. bucks ha hut incidentally
  16. +2
    April 23 2012 09: 53
    This topic is not new.... There have already been discussions on it on the site. The author, for his part, considered the problem in great detail (although I am for the brevity of the presentation). But at the same time, nothing is said about the criminal participation in these outrages of the Rosoboronservis company controlled by Serdyukov.
    The destruction of ammunition by blasting is certainly a crime, from which side do not look.
  17. Nechai
    +1
    April 23 2012 14: 54
    Quote: Drednout
    And the complexity is only for a generation of years since the 90s (maybe from the 85th.)

    Rasul, and now the voices of enlightened intelligentsia are heard that they say generations that are now 20-40 years old, simply write off. Because spoiled, worthless little people. They’re not good for anything. And focus solely on youth. On the same, just give up. How do you like? Sort of.
    Quote: Ascetic
    We carried out the calculations and determined that the Armed Forces in the new look must contain no more than 3 million tons of conventional (non-nuclear) ammunition. Consequently, 6,5 million tons will remain unclaimed in any scenario.

    Oh, Stanislav, well, I can't believe that all options were considered. Considered only those in which the "new look" at least dances. "There is never a lot of ammunition" - the truth hammered into the subconscious. Therefore, in my half-heel there was always not 20, but 40 F-1.
    "The supply of korman is not burdensome, and he does not ask for money. I don’t la-la nun, but wears horseradish under his cassock."
    1. +2
      April 23 2012 15: 34
      Quote: Nechai
      "There is never a lot of ammunition" - the truth hammered into the subconscious. Therefore, in my half-heel there was always not 20, but 40 F-1.


      I agree only with normal ones, not junk of the third category and half a century ago. You will do a lot if the efki instead of exploding will "hiss" like a leaky kettle, because the fuses are already rotten. About that and speech - it is better to endure two years and get rid of such dangerous junk or quietly smoke for 20 years.
  18. 0
    April 23 2012 18: 30
    Yes, the ammunition has a shelf life, you need to freshen up, get rid of old ones, of course.
    But all the same, somehow the disposal is done through the ass. We live in the 21st century, was it really impossible to prepare a sensible project for industrial utilization? I can't believe that this is not a feasible task for our country. Although, taking into account the realities, especially outstanding personalities in the field of management and "those who have joined him" may not be feasible.
  19. 0
    April 23 2012 19: 11
    The metal is excellent, TNT is non-hygroscopic (practically insoluble in water), loaded into wagons, then into a large barge and drown at a depth of 3km, locate a place and let yourself lie! It doesn’t interfere with fishes, ecology, too, and when it’s necessary, it will fall off and half-mellow!