Military Review

Why, instead of the powerful "Slingshot", the troops began to supply the "simplified" T-72B3?

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Over 10 years ago, the Slingshot T-72B2 was created and successfully tested in Nizhny Tagil. In materials published at that time, the car was called “a real breakthrough,” writes Messenger of Mordovia.


Why, instead of the powerful "Slingshot", the troops began to supply the "simplified" T-72B3?


“From those who began to enter the troops in 2011-2012. "simplified" T-72B3 "Slingshot" differed, above all, the dynamic protection of the new generation "Relic", which is able to withstand the most modern anti-tank weapons. Including the tandem, which is beyond the power of the outdated “Contact-5”, ”says the article by Dmitry Lemeshko.

Such protection is now provided for Terminator BMPT, T-90M and T-80BVM. However, T-72 could get it at the end of the last decade.

In addition, the T-72B3 had an engine, as in the mid-80s, with 840 hp. At the “Slingshot” - 1000 hp (like the t-90). An auxiliary power unit was also installed to provide power to the systems. tank in parking lots and combat positions, without turning on the main engine. The driver received an automatic gear shift.



The T-72B3 powerplant in the 1130 HP and "automaton" appeared only in 2016 year. But "there is no auxiliary engine, just as there is no special device for reconciling the thermal bending of the gun barrel, which improves the accuracy of shooting," the author notes.

Therefore, the vehicles in the army "are inferior in accuracy to a more perfect version, despite the modern, as on the Slingshot, Sosna-U sight," he adds.

According to the resource, the prototype T-72B2 was made in the spring 2005 of the year. Two years later, the tank successfully passed the intense state tests, but was not accepted for service.



Whatever goals are guided by those who then hacked this tank, it is now clear that a big mistake was made, which we are trying to eliminate so far. They wanted to save money, but, as you know, the miser pays twice,
quotes the publication of military expert Alexei Khlopotov.
Photos used:
Alexey Khlopotov
78 comments
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  1. bazzbazz
    bazzbazz 1 March 2018 12: 52
    +10
    So the military felt that it was not advisable to overpay! I think if they sawed money on it, they would have taken a more expensive option.
    We are armed with many different tanks, there are plenty to choose from. And the T72 is just a workhorse.
    1. Kars
      Kars 1 March 2018 12: 59
      +24
      It was unlikely that the military believed that. They simply did not give money. Then, in my opinion, he was still a minister.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 2 March 2018 16: 00
        +1
        Quote: Kars
        It was unlikely that the military believed that. They simply did not give money. Then, in my opinion, he was still a minister.

        He himself - it was the furniture maker who made the decision to purchase the "budget" T-72B3.
        The reason is well known: the bulk (more than 2000) of tanks of combat units (T-72A / B and T-62) was released back in the USSR and required urgent replacement. Therefore, the task was set: to keep within 52 million per tank, superior to the main for the BTV T-72A / B, and give the army at least 180-200 such vehicles a year. Otherwise, the BTV would simply be degraded, turning into an infantry.
        In 2017, the situation with tanks moved away from a critical point - and from budget models they began to move to more sophisticated ones.
    2. san4es
      san4es 1 March 2018 13: 14
      +5
      Quote: bazzbazz
      ... We are armed with many different tanks, there are plenty to choose from. And the T72 is just a workhorse.
      soldier

      Nov 16 2012 year
    3. Andrey Yuryevich
      Andrey Yuryevich 1 March 2018 13: 23
      +5
      Quote: bazzbazz
      So the military counted

      Yes, no hell .... the military only "holes" are considered ...
      1. bazzbazz
        bazzbazz 1 March 2018 13: 35
        +3
        Sorry, what kind of holes do they think?)
        1. Alex_Rarog
          Alex_Rarog 1 March 2018 18: 31
          +2
          in uniform)))))))))))
          1. PSih2097
            PSih2097 2 March 2018 01: 35
            0
            Quote: Alex_Rarog
            in uniform)))))))))))

            in which and in which municipality ???
      2. RU-Officer
        RU-Officer 2 March 2018 15: 39
        0
        And you, "Andrei Yuryevich", are all rude (though you got to the "Marshal") ... Or are these jokes? Would you like to explain? Or did they get all the knowledge about the officer corps of the RF Armed Forces on Wikipedia? Vulgarity, you know, does not paint. I have the honor.
        1. R Anatoly
          R Anatoly 5 March 2018 09: 41
          0
          Regrettably, remember how our valiant officers made the decision to land the aircraft on an aircraft carrier. Hiding for each other.
    4. Andrey K
      Andrey K 1 March 2018 13: 29
      +12
      All together rushed to discuss the expert opinion of Dmitry Lemeshko !!!
      And did anyone ask about his opus?
      He writes about Ukrainian, Iranian, Chinese missiles.
      About the "Cords" on the BA "Tiger", which in Lemeshko - for some reason did not receive distribution.
      On the sale of the Ukrainian super-tank to China and other and other.
      Not Lemeshko, but the master - "jack of all trades".
      From going from the above opus - Lieutenant General Shevchenko Alexander Alexandrovich: to court, for damage to the country's defense. And the Main Armored Directorate of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation is to disband.
      1. Andrey K
        Andrey K 1 March 2018 13: 42
        +9
        I’ll recover: the first word in the last paragraph of the comment is proceeding hi
    5. Dreamboat
      Dreamboat 1 March 2018 15: 23
      +2
      Since the opinion of the Moscow Region, unlike the eksperd, was adopted on the basis of a number of tests, I think it is more justified. Perhaps there were such constructive disadvantages that everyone outweighed ... or maybe the price is more than that of the T-90 ...
      How many saw articles about the "miracle weapon", created in one copy and unappreciated by the military ....
  2. kapitan92
    kapitan92 1 March 2018 12: 53
    +11
    Whatever the objectives of those who then “cut off” this tank, it is now clear that a big mistake has been made, which we are trying to eliminate so far. They wanted to save money, but, as you know, the avaricious pays twice,

    These "mean" ones, as well as members of their families, must be planted in these tanks, with the database, in your own skin you understand everything faster!
    1. bouncyhunter
      bouncyhunter 1 March 2018 13: 03
      +11
      Glory, hello! hi
      Quote: kapitan92
      These "stingy", as well as members of their families, must be planted in these tanks

      Do they crawl into the hatches? what
      1. kapitan92
        kapitan92 1 March 2018 13: 14
        +5
        Quote: bouncyhunter
        Glory, hello! hi
        Quote: kapitan92
        These "stingy", as well as members of their families, must be planted in these tanks

        Do they crawl into the hatches? what

        Pasha, hello! hi Push it through! laughing soldier
        1. bouncyhunter
          bouncyhunter 1 March 2018 18: 20
          +2
          Quote: kapitan92
          Push it through!

          It is possible: a banner for a gun! lol
        2. R Anatoly
          R Anatoly 5 March 2018 09: 50
          0
          That's how much I live in the world, the phrase always haunts me - we have many commanders, but very few responsible.
      2. Andrey Yuryevich
        Andrey Yuryevich 1 March 2018 13: 24
        +1
        Quote: bouncyhunter
        Do they crawl into the hatches?

        leak ... yes
      3. Clumsy
        Clumsy 1 March 2018 13: 30
        +3
        From the beginning to plant, then put the tower)))
        1. gukoyan
          gukoyan 1 March 2018 13: 39
          0
          Even if they do not crawl, it will be possible to expand the hatch with a grinder)))))
    2. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 1 March 2018 13: 38
      +4
      Quote: kapitan92
      These "mean" ones, as well as members of their families, must be planted in these tanks, with the database, in your own skin you understand everything faster!


      Their children in London - they defend the country by drum.
      1. kapitan92
        kapitan92 1 March 2018 13: 42
        +6
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        Their children in London - they defend the country by drum.

        film "Formula of Love".
    3. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 2 March 2018 16: 06
      0
      Quote: kapitan92
      These "mean" ones, as well as members of their families, must be planted in these tanks, with the database, in your own skin you understand everything faster!

      Then advocating for feeding the army cakes at a time when there is not enough bread, you need to put in the T-72A. And to show them a photo of the "slingshot", reassuring that in 5-10 years, maybe they will get such a tank. In the meantime, go into battle on a production tank from the days of developed socialism ... unless, of course, you reach the battlefield - because there was not enough money to overhaul.
      Once again: the T-72B3 was a replacement for the main tanks of our BTV - T-72A / B and T-62. A cheap and massive replacement - because the basis of the tank fleet of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation was Soviet-made vehicles, and not of the latest modifications (the best equipment was in the border districts of the USSR and the Group of Forces - and for the most part it remained outside the borders of the Russian Federation).
  3. Alexey-74
    Alexey-74 1 March 2018 12: 54
    0
    Nothing is changing in Russia. Hacked up a tried and tested car in order to save, or maybe the reports were all right, but in fact ...... now we are trying to catch up.
  4. Oznob
    Oznob 1 March 2018 12: 54
    +4
    This has never happened, and here again ...
  5. groks
    groks 1 March 2018 12: 57
    +3
    1. What money is there.
    2. What is available.
    3. What will not be bought exactly on the foreign market.
    4. What for super expensive body kits, if the tank fights seriously with no one?
    1. Berber
      Berber 1 March 2018 13: 03
      0
      Reasoning correctly. Money is everywhere.
  6. tchoni
    tchoni 1 March 2018 12: 59
    +3
    At first there was great hope at first for the "black eagle", and then for armature. It was believed that the ersatz will be able to endure 5-7 years, and there the "non-total analogue in the world" equipment will go to the troops. But alas. Life has put everything in its place.
    1. groks
      groks 1 March 2018 13: 38
      0
      Lacking the power of taxation will go if there is something to do it. Those. if there is an external order. While they are not there, eagles and armatures will not be in the series.
      1. tchoni
        tchoni 1 March 2018 14: 07
        0
        It turns out that the sanctions apply? -)))
        1. groks
          groks 1 March 2018 14: 31
          +3
          If, in response to the sanctions, our government would take some measures, then it could be considered that sanctions are even beneficial. And since nothing is being done except for the talking room, the sanctions must be in effect.
        2. Mihail28
          Mihail28 2 March 2018 01: 41
          +1
          Conversely, sanctions do not apply. If sanctions began to operate, then the loot would be invested in the fatherland, and not exported from the country. Moreover, at all levels, starting with the Central Bank.
          1. groks
            groks 2 March 2018 07: 20
            0
            I very much doubt that this is the meaning of the sanctions. Then we just need to carry Obama, Kerry, whom else is there.
            1. R Anatoly
              R Anatoly 5 March 2018 10: 04
              0
              Guys, don't be naive. The sanctions are aimed at strangling everyone except AMER. But Europe and comrades still do not want to understand this. But if they understand, then the gut is thin to object to the amers.
              In the meantime, the status is in effect - the Americans will fight with RUSSIA until the last Ukrainian.
              1. groks
                groks 5 March 2018 11: 22
                0
                Well, Michael believes that the sanctions are made exclusively for our benefit.
  7. cariperpaint
    cariperpaint 1 March 2018 13: 01
    +2
    for the simplest reason, why make 72 characteristics identical to 90? the car is so good only sense in it is generally zero at that time
    1. groks
      groks 1 March 2018 13: 39
      0
      72 already exist and there are many of them.
      1. cariperpaint
        cariperpaint 1 March 2018 13: 40
        0
        So what? all of them under t 90 for characteristics to customize for years?
        1. groks
          groks 1 March 2018 13: 46
          0
          So they already exist, they do not need to be produced. To mass-produce now is not really who and where. And what is there to customize? Do not digest the casing.
          1. cariperpaint
            cariperpaint 1 March 2018 14: 12
            +1
            and there’s enough storage for 90 tons))) 72 then the tank is massive if I may say so. they ruin him at the training grounds and train young people on him. for all tasks that for him at the moment there are used b 3 is quite enough. and sawing slingshots while 90, too, were going to modernize it like driving a potato to a country house in a Bentley. beautiful but so stupid)))
            1. groks
              groks 1 March 2018 14: 34
              0
              In storage 200. This is not enough. And they can be sold.
  8. Berkut24
    Berkut24 1 March 2018 13: 06
    +9
    The prototype T-72B2 was manufactured in the spring of 2005.

    You can argue as much as you like, but those who wish can ask what the military budget was that year. And at the same time remember how the fleet and aviation felt themselves at that time. And with what creak, after 3 years, the 58th Army entered Georgia. There was a problem with that money to make the equipment at least just drive.
    And now the problems are completely different. If in those days the T-72B2 was planned to replace the earlier versions of the 72s, now the T-90M and T-14 have been ordered. Investments in the modernization of the T-72 will be minimal, you need to wait for the next generation of armored vehicles. It is not long to wait, the lion's part of the work has already been done.
    1. groks
      groks 1 March 2018 13: 40
      +1
      Modernization ordered by the 80s. But I didn’t hear about 90 and 14 in the series.
      1. Berkut24
        Berkut24 1 March 2018 15: 38
        0
        80 thousand is not. Maybe a few hundred maximum, mainly for the north. In 2018, they ordered a dozen T-90Ms for military tests, 2 T-14 companies and one T-15 company. For the same purpose. In the main everything will go to Tamanians and Kantemirovs. UVZ published its annual plans.
        And yes - modernization was ordered to the level of T-90M T-90 early series. There were 400 of them on conservation, minus the fact that they were sent to Syria.
        1. groks
          groks 1 March 2018 19: 00
          0
          Only 3000 in storage of the 80s. The topic last month was right here.
          1. Berkut24
            Berkut24 1 March 2018 21: 12
            0
            Nobody will upgrade so much. And nobody needs so much.
            1. groks
              groks 1 March 2018 21: 20
              0
              Will be. In any case, they promised already.
              1. Berkut24
                Berkut24 2 March 2018 11: 44
                0
                In our state, in the Ministry of Defense for the coming years, 5000 units are in the ranks of everything. In storage 25000. T-14 were planned as a result of 2500. Plus the supply of T-90M. where to cram another 3000 pieces?
                1. groks
                  groks 2 March 2018 12: 11
                  0
                  But who knows? Maybe they’ll write off that. The T-14 in the series will crush MORF at a cost, so they will first find an external buyer for it. They will not find - no 2500 will be.
                  1. Berkut24
                    Berkut24 2 March 2018 12: 57
                    0
                    Almost everything will be written off after a while. These are cars of the last generation. It makes sense to transfer them to Syria, Libya, Yemen and other similar countries with barmales. Now the time has come for a new generation of technology, more powerful guns, more durable protection, new electronic equipment, etc. It’s no longer possible to cram new lotions into old buildings. Therefore, all these T-80s, T-72s, T-90s of the first iterations - all this is a temporary solution for the next 5-8 years. The price of new cars will depend primarily on the quantity ordered and the modernization of the enterprise. All vehicles of the previous generation have their own birth problems, and their solution will not be cheaper than the release of new tanks.
                    1. groks
                      groks 2 March 2018 13: 17
                      0
                      Now is the time for a new generation of technology
                      What for? To earn currency there will be Armata, if there are buyers. For CTOs and border conflicts, not much is needed and no new is needed.
                      1. Berkut24
                        Berkut24 2 March 2018 15: 18
                        0
                        Then, that the era of network-centric wars has come, where the most important weapon is information and a battle management system based on it. Then, in order to increase the effectiveness of weapons to reduce the army in size, because no one can contain a large army. China is reducing the army, and US foreign debt is growing every year exactly at the cost of maintaining the Pentagon. Then, to ensure victory in a clash with a technological adversary, and not a hired dushman outside our borders.
                        Everything, a new time has come - the war has become different, the fighters have become different, the front line has become deeper, the means of destruction have become different, science has advanced and has given all the conflicting countries new opportunities. This is repeated with a certain frequency throughout the history of mankind. Once battleships were attributed to exclamations of “why?”.
    2. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 1 March 2018 13: 43
      0
      Quote: Berkut24
      And now the problems are completely different. If in those days the T-72B2 was planned to replace the earlier versions of the 72s, now the T-90M and T-14 have been ordered. Investments in the modernization of the T-72 will be minimal, you need to wait for the next generation of armored vehicles. It is not long to wait, the lion's part of the work has already been done.


      Do not forget that for the early versions of the T-72 you can develop a modernization program with a significant increase in performance and upgrade the stocks of old tanks from storage to third countries - as the United States does, profitably getting rid of Abrams M1A1 and providing work and income to tank factories .
  9. CentDo
    CentDo 1 March 2018 13: 07
    +1
    a big mistake was made, which we are trying to eliminate so far

    And what, in fact, is the problem with eliminating this error? If a prototype was built, tests passed, then why not just return to it? The documentation must have been saved. Maybe there were some flaws in this modification?
    1. cariperpaint
      cariperpaint 1 March 2018 13: 24
      0
      price. and meaning. Customize 72 to 90 tons?
      1. CentDo
        CentDo 1 March 2018 13: 39
        0
        I meant the modernization for this project instead of B3
        1. cariperpaint
          cariperpaint 1 March 2018 13: 42
          0
          apparently not said so. then expensive modernization at which we have, if we simplify, 90 tons. Why?
          1. groks
            groks 1 March 2018 13: 54
            0
            The T-90 has 350 in parts and 200 in storage. And 72 how many? The T-90 can be sold favorably, and just 72 can be upgraded with the proceeds. On the contrary, it will not work.
  10. K.A.S.
    K.A.S. 1 March 2018 13: 32
    +1
    nothing changes in Russia. the main thing is to shout "fse is gone. thieves are around" and the pluses are provided
    The experts will ask a simple question: why was such a decision made to find out not fate?
    take an interest in the history of technology, you can always find a sample which, having passed all the tests and being one of the best in the world, was taken into service due to various reasons. For example, i-185, or t-43, or small arms. and in the west the same thing!
    1. groks
      groks 1 March 2018 13: 43
      +1
      It is clear that we have the most honest people at the top. Which are sometimes mistakenly planted, attributing to them almost trillion thefts.
      But in this case, what is the reason? What is HPP now?
      1. K.A.S.
        K.A.S. 1 March 2018 13: 54
        0
        it is clear that below we are the most not only honest but also knowledgeable. what, how and when! Far too much to the Minister of Defense. General Staff. designers or the Ministry of Economics who have a bunch of different information and a crowd of intelligent analysts! Of course, all of the above can not be compared in insight and knowledge with sofa analysts IN!
        and the reason I think is that they did not begin to spend money on the matter of modernized old stuff!
        1. groks
          groks 1 March 2018 14: 50
          +1
          Any arguments? Or only the slogans of oligarchopathy?
          So far, we see that just the old has defeated the other, which was better for its time.
          The author gives some arguments in favor of using exactly the B2 version. Do you think it's better to upgrade the B3? Argument.
          1. K.A.S.
            K.A.S. 1 March 2018 15: 10
            0
            Do you have any arguments besides stamps of patriots? Tell the facts about bribes so as not to let him into the series!
            The presentation of the arguments will be short: this argument is "Armata"! and cars at its base!
            I generally think that all these b2, b3. b4, b5, and other modifications are rubbish compared to Armata and upgrade it for expensive, this is wrecking!
            what's the worst accuracy? how much worse. what shell? or speed, numbers were impossible. and why the tank is needed at the moment. drive the barmaley and the worst modification will go. and if something serious is 90 tons.
            1. groks
              groks 1 March 2018 15: 51
              0
              so as not to let him into the series!
              Who?
              all these b2, b3. b4, b5, and other modifications are rubbish compared to Armata and upgrade it for expensive, this is wrecking!
              Those. MORF government and top - pests?
              what's the worst accuracy? how much worse. what shell?

              To anyone. The absence of a TIS corrector determines. And which one will depend on the weather and the number of shots.
              and why the tank is needed at the moment
              Now - for nothing.
              this argument is "Armata"!
              This is not an argument. This is a product. Goods for the foreign market. It is made according to the norms of the external - the most hefty in the world. With huge surface areas. Those. it is more likely a CTO tank than an MBT. And it still needs to be done, at the factory, which is bankrupt. And the rest is already there - thanks to the damned totalitarianism.
              1. K.A.S.
                K.A.S. 1 March 2018 15: 59
                0
                a bribe for what would the slingshot be in the series who gave whom and to whom?
                Well done government that did not spend a meager budget and resources. something that will become obsolete in a few years
                that is, as I understand it, the difference without yew is 2 km-5 km?
                the most hefty in the world. With huge surface areas.
                Do you know the meaning of the concept of bankruptcy? bankruptcy can it be a change of ownership? or cancellation of debts, or avoiding sanctions yes yes fig what !!!!
                Yeah! all of you won the argument! I merged, I will not argue with a glass of spices.
                1. groks
                  groks 1 March 2018 19: 14
                  0
                  Is there a bribe in the article? Did I write about a bribe? In general, oligarchs give the bribes from the defense industry, to MORF, so that it is their model that goes - where without it? What for then they would buy that defense.
                  For those who are right here in the form of technology under discussion. On B3 there are not enough of some things that are necessary at the present time and not expensive. And on older B2 it is. Therefore, it will be logical to talk about corruption.
                  that is, as I understand it, the difference without yew is 2 km-5 km?
                  What is this about? The gun seems to be one. You should familiarize yourself with the concept.
                  In this case, bankruptcy is the inability to repay loans earned by effectivists. It has been discussed many times, including here. As a result of the repurchases, UVZ became a debt to GPB, so now it’s over whose tanks they will be.
  11. gukoyan
    gukoyan 1 March 2018 13: 36
    0
    Avaricious to pay twice, and sucker three times ... Let's upgrade to T-90A already ...
    And then judging by how our government spends money on all nonsense, it means there is money.
  12. tomket
    tomket 1 March 2018 13: 46
    0
    Hello from Perdyukov.
  13. faterdom
    faterdom 1 March 2018 13: 56
    +2
    Quote: Kars
    It was unlikely that the military believed that. They simply did not give money. Then, in my opinion, he was still a minister.

    Taburetkin did not even become a minister, was Ivanov. But Kudrin was the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance.
  14. Bronevick
    Bronevick 1 March 2018 14: 13
    0
    Because in the government there are enemies, specially destroying successful projects.
  15. Xscorpion
    Xscorpion 1 March 2018 14: 42
    +1
    Quote: Andrey K
    All together rushed to discuss the expert opinion of Dmitry Lemeshko !!!
    And did anyone ask about his opus?
    He writes about Ukrainian, Iranian, Chinese missiles.
    About the "Cords" on the BA "Tiger", which in Lemeshko - for some reason did not receive distribution.
    On the sale of the Ukrainian super-tank to China and other and other.
    Not Lemeshko, but the master - "jack of all trades".
    From going from the above opus - Lieutenant General Shevchenko Alexander Alexandrovich: to court, for damage to the country's defense. And the Main Armored Directorate of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation is to disband.


    It’s just that these experts don’t understand that the military put forward a number of requirements for our tanks. And one of them is the possibility of quick and cheap mass modernization. That’s the way we always went to the USSR, cheaper options were often adopted, while more expensive ones were brought to mind . Nobody hacked the t72b2 project, as stated in the article, and technical solutions were made as a result of its trial operation, the results are visible in the latest t-72b3 modification of 2016. The APU's value is doubtful, our tanks are not so computerized. In addition, our command vehicles equipped with it, because you need to be in touch constantly, the batteries may not be enough. And even the Americans refused to use them on Abramsy, in view of its vulnerability to machine gun fire, and simply replaced them with an additional battery.
  16. SmokeR 47RU
    SmokeR 47RU 1 March 2018 19: 48
    0
    Hedgehog (Yezhov) it is clear that this is a targeted wrecking!
    And by the way, since the presidency of Dimon - no one has answered for anything !!! ???
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 2 March 2018 01: 45
      0
      All these modernized T 72, T 80 and T 90 tanks, after falling into them from the third generation ATGMs, will turn into a pile of cracked scrap metal. There is no defense against getting into the roof and the upper hemisphere of our tanks, in the troops.
  17. APASUS
    APASUS 1 March 2018 21: 25
    0
    According to the resource, the prototype T-72B2 was made in the spring 2005 of the year. Two years later, the tank successfully passed the intense state tests, but was not accepted for service.

    Medvedev was the president at that time, and Serdyukov just stepped in. It may of course be a coincidence, but it is quite possible that it was not the competence of some leaders that played a decisive role.
  18. Valery Saitov
    Valery Saitov 2 March 2018 08: 42
    0
    Always choose what is best suited at the moment (and most importantly easier).
  19. groks
    groks 2 March 2018 15: 40
    0
    Berkut24,
    So with whom to fight? USA-RF? This is TMV. Where else might these "network-centric" be needed?
    Actually, we need some groundwork in border conflicts (888) and in the CTO. Which is what we observe.
  20. tecnik
    tecnik 2 March 2018 19: 31
    0
    in a war, a workhorse dies first and then it is eaten, it is necessary to fight there and not to plow arable land