Military Review

Media: Su-35 can upgrade to fifth-generation aircraft

88
Russia and India intend to jointly upgrade the Su-35, bringing its performance to the fifth-generation fighter. If this idea turns out to be realized, the updated combat vehicle can become one of the leaders in its class, according to the Japanese edition of The Diplomat.


As noted in the article, the previously voiced idea of ​​creating a fifth-generation fighter for India based on the Su-57 still hung in the air, so the parties are simultaneously working on an alternative option - a deep modernization of the Su-35, which today belongs to 4 ++ combat vehicles. The obvious advantage of this step is the relative cheapness.

Media: Su-35 can upgrade to fifth-generation aircraft


If the reports on the development of the fifth-generation platform based on the Su-35 are correct, their results can be intriguing and lead to the emergence of the best-in-class fighter
- the article says. The standard design of the Su-35 is fully consistent with the characteristics of the fifth-generation fighter except for the lack of secrecy. Apparently, talking about modernization, the military has in mind this component.

It is noteworthy that similar attempts in the world aviation already undertaken. For example, due to the fact that the United States does not want to export its fifth-generation fighter F-22 Raptor, Boeing modified the F-15E. The result is an F-15SE Silent Eagle - a variant of a fighter with a reduced frontal radar cross section, which is painted with a special radio-absorbing paint.

At the same time, stealthiness did not make the fifth-generation fighter of the F-15E, whereas for the Su-35 this would be a serious step for upgrading the class. Even more value to the fighter can be given if you equip it with missiles created specifically for the Su-57. In particular, a new air-to-air missile is being developed on the basis of the P-37, capable of hitting targets at a distance of 400 kilometers, reports RG-Sil
Photos used:
Artem Zhitenev / RIA News
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  1. maxim947
    maxim947 26 February 2018 16: 34
    +15
    ... considers the Japanese edition of The Diplomat.

    They surely know everything))) It is impossible to upgrade it until the 5th generation, you can only add a couple of pluses to the fourth, is it only necessary? Although if the goal is to get money from the Indians, then maybe there is a reason.)))
    1. Vladimir16
      Vladimir16 26 February 2018 16: 40
      +21
      If the aircraft will easily see the ef35 and 22 at a distance of hundreds of km., Will have a cruising speed higher than the speed of sound, will have weapons with a range of defeat f35 and f22 - 400 km, then its "invisibility" will not be the most important factor.
      It is important to be the first to see and hit the target. Be able to get away from enemy missiles.
      So that the modernization of su35 is quite real.
      1. supertiger21
        supertiger21 26 February 2018 17: 03
        +13
        Modernization of the Su-35S is definitely a good step to improve the already excellent good but he will not become a 5th generation aircraft.

        The author of the article hardly really understands what stelth technology is. This is not just some kind of glider packing using radio-absorbing materials, it is a completely different glider system, with precisely defined angles, which do not give returns to the radiation source. In addition, he must have not only external, but also internal weapon compartments, because the suspension also increases the EPR and the whole meaning of stealth is lost. In addition, the airplane must be invisible in the infrared range, i.e. we are talking about engine nozzles.

        Based on the foregoing, we see that the concept of the fifth generation fighter so far corresponds only to the F-5. He has both cruising serhsound, and super-agility, and of course elements to reduce visibility in all ranges. Su-22, F-57 and J-35 with a stretch fall under the 20th generation, thanks to radar stealth. But their thermal stealth, a decent number of internal compartments, as well as cruising supersonic so far leave much to be desired ... request
        1. zyzx
          zyzx 26 February 2018 17: 31
          +17
          And when on F-22, unexpectedly, even for the creators of this aircraft appeared over maneuverability? And it is invisible exclusively to American radars and when it is in full radio passive.
          1. supertiger21
            supertiger21 26 February 2018 17: 40
            +3
            Quote: zyzx
            And when on F-22, unexpectedly, even for the creators of this aircraft appeared over maneuverability?


            Since 1990, when this device showed excellent maneuverability, which it is given to deflected (on the virtecals) engine nozzles, even at supercritical angles of attack. wink

            Quote: zyzx
            And it is invisible exclusively to American radars and when it is in full radio passive.


            And again this ... fellow "invisibility")))
            Well, there is no such term in relation to airplanes, there is a concept of stealth.
            1. zyzx
              zyzx 26 February 2018 17: 48
              0
              Quote: supertiger21
              Well, there is no such term in relation to airplanes, there is a concept of stealth.

              Where not specifically, in what source, in what interpretation of the term?
              If the plane flies, but its radar does not see, is it still not visible or little noticeable?
              1. supertiger21
                supertiger21 26 February 2018 18: 06
                +4
                Quote: zyzx
                Where not specifically, in what source, in what interpretation of the term?


                Because stealth means hidden, not "completely unnoticed"

                Quote: zyzx
                If the plane flies, but its radar does not see, is it still not visible or little noticeable?


                If the ship is sailing and, and has not crashed into the iceberg sailing in front, is it just safe or "completely unsinkable"?
            2. just exp
              just exp 26 February 2018 19: 56
              +4
              that’s precisely the fact that his engines have only vertical OVT, then it turns out that the Su-57 is not just super-maneuverable, super-super-maneuverable.
              1. supertiger21
                supertiger21 27 February 2018 13: 13
                0
                Quote: just EXPL
                that’s precisely the fact that his engines have only vertical OVT, then it turns out that the Su-57 is not just super-maneuverable, super-super-maneuverable.


                Think right. yes Due to the all-angular deviation of the nozzles, the presence of special slats and a fully rotatable vertical tail catch, the Su-57 has even greater super maneuverability than the F-22. wink
        2. Herman 4223
          Herman 4223 26 February 2018 18: 41
          +4
          And what is wrong with the su-57 cruising supersonic sound? As far as I know, even the su-35 has this function (1400 km / h), and on the su57 engines have more thrust (9500 kg / s versus 8800u su-35), and the plane itself is lighter . And this is with the engines of the first stage. About the internal compartments, it’s also not clear what you blurted out. There are no flat nozzles, that’s yes. But they eat up the engine thrust and do not allow the nozzles to be deflected all-round.
          1. Grigory_45
            Grigory_45 27 February 2018 00: 40
            0
            Quote: Herman 4223
            As far as I know, even the su-35 has this function (1400km / h), and on the su57 engines have more thrust (9500kg / s vs 8800u su-35), and the plane itself is lighter.

            Su-35 has a cruising supersonic total M = 1,1 (and it is not clear with what kind of suspension)
            the mass of the Su-57 is greater than the Su-35 (normal takeoff 27 and 25 tons, respectively), the engines are the same. The speed is determined not only by the mass and thrust of the engine, but also by the cross section of the airframe.
        3. lance
          lance 26 February 2018 18: 47
          +3
          until f-22 showed the stated EPR below 0,5 and the conversation about the lenses is empty talk at blah blah blah level. if the epr su-35 is reduced to 0,4, it will exceed 22 with the radar and armament of the su-57. and this doesn’t interfere with anything except as is customary in our political will
        4. Lock36
          Lock36 26 February 2018 20: 51
          +3
          Quote: supertiger21
          Su-57, F-35 and J-20 with a stretch fall under the 5th generation, thanks to radar stealth. But their thermal stealth, a decent number of internal compartments, as well as cruising supersonic so far leave much to be desired ...

          Give a source for the EPR numbers of these machines, especially in comparison with F22. Surely, these are the most accurate and objective sources.
      2. Alex777
        Alex777 26 February 2018 19: 21
        +4
        The issue of upgrading the Su-35 went IMHO for one and only reason: no one is going to share the production technology of the T-50, FGFA or Su-57 with India as you name it. There will be no 5th generation made in India. It is secret. So they are trying to find candy where it is not there, although the Su-35 is a good airplane, if you can’t tell me. hi
      3. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 27 February 2018 00: 22
        +1
        Quote: Vladimir16
        So that the modernization of su35 is quite real.

        Why not ? The MiG-35 is also going to be upgraded in the future according to the same “scheme.” There is no need to add “pluses” to the designation of a new modification .... sometimes the term “-” 5- “appears in the media ... that’s right.
    2. svp67
      svp67 26 February 2018 16: 48
      +6
      Quote: maxim947
      It’s impossible to upgrade it until the 5th generation,

      Why? You can and that's what happens ...
      1. supertiger21
        supertiger21 26 February 2018 17: 21
        +4
        Quote: svp67
        Why? You can and that's what happens ...


        In this case, this is not called a modernization, but a new aircraft.
        1. svp67
          svp67 26 February 2018 17: 34
          +4
          Quote: supertiger21
          In this case, this is not called a modernization, but a new aircraft.

          Well, you can call it DEEP, VERY DEEP modernization. Moreover, our Air Force already has experience ...

          1. supertiger21
            supertiger21 26 February 2018 17: 45
            +2
            Quote: svp67
            Well, you can call it DEEP, VERY DEEP modernization. Moreover, our Air Force already has experience ...



            Yes, you can, but often the creators don’t say that. Even the Super Hornet is considered a new aircraft, and not a modification of the base F / A-18. Also, the Su-35S has its own index, and not for example just a modernized Su-27.
    3. Piramidon
      Piramidon 26 February 2018 17: 04
      +4
      Quote: maxim947
      It is impossible to upgrade it to the 5th generation

      "5th generation" is a very vague concept. Invisibility modern radars are gradually minimized. Remains cruising supersonic, which with the appropriate engines is completely solvable.
      1. supertiger21
        supertiger21 26 February 2018 17: 18
        0
        Quote: Piramidon
        "5th generation" is a very vague concept. Invisibility modern radars are gradually minimized. Remains cruising supersonic, which with the appropriate engines is completely solvable.


        Well, let's start with the fact that it’s not “invisibility” (it’s not the smartest brand given to journalists by the F-117), but LITTLE LINE. Secondly, in history there is not a single reliable case when radars were able to fix aircraft with stealth technology (modern radars, including). Therefore, so far these may be just our assumptions with you. hi About cruising supersonic agree. But this is hardly a mandatory requirement for the 5th generation. For, as far as I know, the same Su-57 and F-35 are not able to achieve it without afterburner, but nevertheless, all well-known experts attribute them to the 5th generation.
        1. Piramidon
          Piramidon 26 February 2018 17: 28
          0
          Quote: supertiger21
          there is not a single reliable case in history when radars were able to fix aircraft with stealth technology (modern radars, including).

          I agree, official There is no data, but the thing is, at least during the tests, albeit on mock-ups. So the complete debunking of "stealth" is just around the corner.
          1. supertiger21
            supertiger21 26 February 2018 17: 47
            0
            Quote: Piramidon
            I agree, there is no official data, but the thing is, at least during the tests, albeit on mock-ups. So the complete debunking of "stealth" is just around the corner.


            What you said is quite possible. But since both Americans and ours make a big bet on stealth, then the risk is justified and this makes a lot of sense.
        2. zyzx
          zyzx 26 February 2018 17: 37
          +1
          Quote: supertiger21
          Secondly, in history there is not a single reliable case when radars were able to fix aircraft with stealth technology

          Even collapsed from a chair ... that means the Berlin Wall fell. Fell into the hands of the enemy MiG-29. They began to test these things. This is how GDRovets flies at the moment 29, they launched Fy-117 against him, he sees, he shares. It is quite reliable and written case.
        3. Doliva63
          Doliva63 26 February 2018 17: 59
          +6
          But how did the Yugoslavs bring down the 117th, since he could not be seen in the radar? drinks
          1. faiver
            faiver 26 February 2018 19: 13
            0
            by mistake - they aimed at another laughing
            1. Doliva63
              Doliva63 26 February 2018 19: 49
              +6
              Duc missile without a signal from the radar will not fly anywhere laughing
              1. sharp-lad
                sharp-lad 26 February 2018 21: 31
                0
                Will fly! Into the sky. And after a certain time, self-destructs.
          2. supertiger21
            supertiger21 27 February 2018 13: 23
            +1
            Quote: Doliva63
            But how did the Yugoslavs bring down the 117th, since he could not be seen in the radar? drinks


            Yes Serbs are beautiful good , laid the 117th. am They just discovered it from a relatively short distance of about 10 km, and used not a radar, but a Philips thermal imager. Those. this does not refute the invulnerability of stealth technologies to RADAR stations.
            1. Grigory_45
              Grigory_45 27 February 2018 13: 47
              +1
              Quote: supertiger21
              laid the 117th. They just discovered it from a relatively short distance of about 10 km, and used not a radar, but a Philips thermal imager. Those. this does not refute the invulnerability of stealth technologies to RADAR stations.

              Lieutenant Colonel George Anichich himself, a direct participant in the decline of F-117, said that they were driven by radar. From a distance of about 20 km - i.e. almost point blank. They shot from 11 km, after several unsuccessful attempts to capture escort. If F-117 was a “normal” plane, they would have been seen for 80 kilometers at least.
              S-125M Neva-M (from which they lowered Nighthawk) equipped with equipment for television-optical sighting and tracking of the Karat-2 target, which allows tracking and firing of targets without radar radiation into space. The equipment appeared after the Vietnam War, when jamming by EW aircraft made radar guidance impossible. But I doubt very much that through it at night high in the sky you can see a black plane.
        4. Lock36
          Lock36 26 February 2018 20: 53
          +2
          Quote: supertiger21
          About cruising supersonic agree. But this is hardly a mandatory requirement for the 5th generation. For, as far as I know, the same Su-57 and F-35 are not able to achieve it without afterburner, but nevertheless, all well-known experts attribute them to the 5th generation.

          Give a link to this source on the Su-57. Where do you get all this from?
          1. Herman 4223
            Herman 4223 26 February 2018 21: 14
            0
            He has a source in his nose.
            1. Lock36
              Lock36 27 February 2018 22: 33
              +1
              I agree. Or in some other place.
        5. Grigory_45
          Grigory_45 27 February 2018 00: 47
          +1
          Quote: supertiger21
          About cruising supersonic agree. But this is hardly a mandatory requirement for the 5th generation.

          this is again a requirement of stealth, but already in the infrared range. The afterburner engine is noticeable from a much greater distance (even from the front hemisphere) than the one operating at maximum.
          1. supertiger21
            supertiger21 27 February 2018 13: 24
            0
            Quote: Gregory_45
            this is again a requirement of stealth, but already in the infrared range. The afterburner engine is noticeable from a much greater distance (even from the front hemisphere) than the one operating at maximum.


            I do not argue, it is.
    4. jovanni
      jovanni 26 February 2018 17: 19
      0
      Quote: maxim947
      It is impossible to upgrade it to the 5th generation, can you just add a couple more pluses to the fourth, is it only necessary? Although if the goal is to get money from the Indians, then maybe there is a reason.)))

      Plywood beat laughing
      1. Piramidon
        Piramidon 26 February 2018 17: 31
        0
        Quote: Jovanni
        Plywood beat laughing

        Sweatshirts, damn it. fool
    5. maiman61
      maiman61 26 February 2018 18: 05
      0
      To upgrade the Su-35 for Hindu money and sell it to them, in addition to receive a super fighter for their VKS - this is aerobatics!
    6. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 27 February 2018 00: 13
      +1
      Quote: maxim947
      you can only add a couple of pluses to the fourth, only if it is necessary

      And then ... more and more! No, really! Enough and a couple of "pluses" ... And a new modification of the airplanes can be indexed as ,, 5- "(in any case, such a" designation ", sometimes found in the media)
  2. KVU-NSVD
    KVU-NSVD 26 February 2018 16: 34
    +15
    And the weapons from the external suspensions of kuda will disappear? With it, you can’t drastically reduce the EPR with either coverings or the “brokenness” of the airframe silhouette ... So there’s no point in pestering and perverting a good airplane ... And the Hindu Wishlist are already becoming a household name ...
    1. Muvka
      Muvka 26 February 2018 16: 44
      +1
      They will solve the problem like on the Su-57. Special containers will be created. What is the problem?
      1. Grigory_45
        Grigory_45 27 February 2018 00: 24
        +1
        Quote: Muvka
        They will solve the problem like on the Su-57. Special containers will be created. What is the problem?

        the problem is that there are no containers on the Su-57, there is a built-in weapons compartment (like on a bomber). Similar to the F-22/35, the Chinese J-20 or the Russian S-37 Golden Eagle. How not to pervert over the glider, why not cover the plane, and the suspension of existing missiles on external pylons will immediately reduce all efforts to nothing. Embedding the armament compartment on the Su-35 is a serious alteration of the airframe design, which cannot be considered upgrades
    2. Berber
      Berber 26 February 2018 16: 45
      +2
      I think they realized that it is easier and cheaper to make the SU 35 at the production base where the SU30MKI was made than to establish a new line. Moreover, the capabilities of f35 and f22, to put it mildly, are exaggerated for advertising purposes. So why puff up.
    3. san4es
      san4es 26 February 2018 16: 46
      +5
      Quote: KVU-NSVD
      And weapons from the external suspensions of kuda will disappear?

      ... They are shoving them in boxes. wink
      Boeing modified the F-15E glider. The result is an F-15SE Silent Eagle

      Silent Eagle - Silent Eagle
    4. cniza
      cniza 26 February 2018 16: 50
      +4
      Quote: KVU-NSVD
      And Wishlist Indians are already becoming a household name ...


      It was always hard with them, even those breeding and blackmailers.
    5. Piramidon
      Piramidon 26 February 2018 17: 09
      +2
      Quote: KVU-NSVD
      And the weapons from the external suspensions of kuda will disappear? With it, radically EPR can not be reduced either by coatings or by “broken” glider silhouette ...

      All these "stealth" is a bloated advertising and marketing move of star-striped "partners." And their F-117s were similar to the Egyptian pyramids, they only produced for public relations, and after a rocket from the Vietnam War hit him in Yugoslavia, this flying suitcase was quickly removed from service. The duel of "armor and shell" showed that modern radars are not too sickly to find all these notorious "invisibility". And if so, then why pervert?
      1. sharp-lad
        sharp-lad 26 February 2018 21: 41
        0
        That's it! There are no inconspicuous targets against the radar of the meter range! And even with a saturated radar field, if they don’t take on escort in front, they will take it in profile with all the flying consequences.
        1. Grigory_45
          Grigory_45 27 February 2018 00: 13
          +2
          Quote: sharp-lad
          There are no inconspicuous targets against the radar of the meter range!

          try to stick a meter-range radar into a fighter, and even better - into a rocket (smaller than the "Proton", of course) As soon as you can - I will actively insist that you get a Nobel Prize))
          1. sharp-lad
            sharp-lad 27 February 2018 14: 11
            0
            One question. How are missiles with semi-active radar homing targets on target? smile
            1. Grigory_45
              Grigory_45 27 February 2018 15: 58
              0
              try to place a meter-long antenna in a sane missile (well, so that it can be transported even by a large truck, and not by a heavy train), not to mention the fact that a meter radar with its accuracy is in no way suitable for aiming . It will detect it, and in order to hit the target with the miss that it can provide due to its nature, you have to set up a nuclear warhead. The victory of technology over common sense)
              1. sharp-lad
                sharp-lad 27 February 2018 21: 18
                0
                Okay, let's go on the other side. In order to talk about the launch of anti-aircraft missiles in general, you need to find the target itself and for this, your defense industry launches, and the Ministry of Defense takes into service and puts on duty, for example, radars of the Sky family, which include meter-range complexes (like and decimeter and centimeter). When you know where to aim and how much time is there, then you can choose the means of destruction, from the availability, most suitable for destroying a specific target.
                1. Grigory_45
                  Grigory_45 27 February 2018 21: 41
                  0
                  in order to launch a rocket, the target must be taken to escort the SNR. All missile defense systems of the air defense system, the radar of all planes and the seeker of all missiles, work in centimeter. Further comments are said to be superfluous. It’s not enough to know that “somewhere there is something”, you still need to “aim”.
                  All meter radars are detectors, not guidance stations. In the same way, you can see stealth, for example, optics from a spacecraft, but you can’t do anything with it. The crew of such an aircraft is more important not that they know about them, but that they cannot use weapons with due efficiency
                  1. sharp-lad
                    sharp-lad 27 February 2018 21: 50
                    0
                    If all missiles were aimed at the target only with the help of radio waves and all planes and anti-aircraft systems were equipped exclusively with radars, then I would agree with you. But, fortunately, there are other guidance methods. I repeat, the main thing to know is where and where, and then you can choose what and how. hi
                    1. Grigory_45
                      Grigory_45 27 February 2018 22: 20
                      +1
                      I am sure that you imagine worse than me that stealth is not "invisible", but just an inconspicuous aircraft. Also, you know that the “eyes and ears of air defense” are radars. Only they provide the required "range." Of course, there are also optics and heat direction finders, but their range is an order of magnitude less. A missile with a medium-long range IR-GOS (for example, R-27T / ET), after launch, must also be carried out using a radar, carry out radio correction, otherwise on one inertial it will go to where the target has already gone and the “head” simply will not find her. Also, you are well aware that stealth is a set of measures, including those to reduce IR visibility. The emphasis on radar signature is made precisely because most modern weapons use radar in one way or another
                      As a result, we can say that stealth technology significantly reduces the air defense capabilities, sharply limiting it in terms of means and range of destruction. Stealth aircraft do not need much - to go unscathed to the lines of using their weapons and go home as a whole. For that matter, then near the “stealth" the usual centimeter radar will also break through, thanks to its energy - if someone crazy would suddenly think of flying right above the air defense system’s position. The whole feature of the stealth is to make the life of the air defense forces as “pleasant” as possible and to use weapons first.
                      1. sharp-lad
                        sharp-lad 27 February 2018 22: 38
                        0
                        That's almost the same thing, the accuracy of a meter radar is quite enough to bring a link of air defense fighters to a target at a distance of effective use of weapons or to transmit preliminary target designation to "silent" air defense systems (you can eat a dish on the table).
                        Forced to end our pleasant conversation, I am drinks , I’ll soon start joking not quite in the subject. Thanks again for the communication. hi hi
          2. Lock36
            Lock36 27 February 2018 22: 37
            +1
            IMHO you are confusing: there is the task of detection (completely in the decimeter range) and target designation (centimeter range and this is already for the GOS).
      2. Grigory_45
        Grigory_45 27 February 2018 00: 18
        +2
        Quote: Piramidon
        and after a rocket from the Vietnam War hit him in Yugoslavia, this flying suitcase was quickly removed from service.

        The F-117 was shot down in 1999, and the Night Hawks began to be retired from the end of 2006, after they were noted in Iraq (2003). Fast Finnish guys? lol Have you been thinking for seven years? I’ll tell you a secret - F-117 began to be withdrawn from service as F-22 arrived, and the incident in Yugoslavia had nothing to do with it.
    6. sharp-lad
      sharp-lad 26 February 2018 21: 34
      0
      So for the client’s money, any whim! It is possible to freeze suspensions and even free-falling bombs! laughing hi
  3. Alexey-74
    Alexey-74 26 February 2018 16: 36
    +2
    If you optimize price and quality, then the Su-35 is the best suited for this .... it’s difficult to compare the S-57 and the Su-35 S, because we don’t know anything about the characteristics and capabilities of the Su-57
  4. Wolka
    Wolka 26 February 2018 16: 37
    +1
    but without the Indians it’s impossible ...
    1. Muvka
      Muvka 26 February 2018 16: 45
      0
      Because Indians desperately need a 5th generation airplane. But FGFA is not ready and will be ready xs when. And the Su-35 is an excellent aircraft and if it pulls up even more characteristics, it will feel great like a 5th generation aircraft and at the same time it will cost not very much and you can make it in the shortest possible time.
      1. bulvas
        bulvas 26 February 2018 16: 49
        +2
        Quote: Volka
        but without the Indians it’s impossible ...


        Hindus already drop by F-35
        Is this better for us?
        Let us buy several hundred airplanes from us, for this we can sweat
        1. serriy
          serriy 26 February 2018 18: 59
          +1
          Quote: bulvas
          Let us buy several hundred airplanes from us, for this we can sweat

          So the planes are not going to buy, but they themselves want to do !!! With the T-50 Oblomingo they did not give them the full amount of technology and production to receive. We went around - they proposed upgrading the Su-35. And in exchange - the same technology and production. hi
  5. shans2
    shans2 26 February 2018 16: 38
    +3
    Indians are constantly trying to save on matches, but in the end they lose billions and remain at a low level of development of the military-industrial complex and weapons ...
  6. Herculesic
    Herculesic 26 February 2018 16: 40
    +4
    And why not immediately until the 7th generation, and even more so with the Indians together?
  7. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 26 February 2018 16: 59
    +1
    Washed off in this. There are two projects with the UAE and Hindus on this topic. Due to the fact that we already have the Su-57, then there is specifically how to modernize the Su-35. But for our money we don’t want to do this and are waiting for who will pay it (as in the case of the F-15). Although for the Russian Air Force such a plane would be very necessary.
  8. Pavil144
    Pavil144 26 February 2018 17: 04
    0
    Interesting, but not the topic. If f 22 will be without an AWACS aircraft against Su 35. What is the outcome about?
    1. supertiger21
      supertiger21 26 February 2018 17: 33
      +1
      Quote: Pavil144
      Interesting, but not the topic. If f 22 will be without an AWACS aircraft against Su 35. What is the outcome about?


      IMHO, only if judged theoretically, then start the battle from distances over hundreds of kilometers, then the Raptor will be the winner. Due to the more accurate operation of the AFAR radar, it itself remained less visible and shot down that missile with a large radius AIM-120D. But if we are talking about near distances, then almost all of Flanker's trump cards are already here. Even UVT nozzles will not be a good argument on the 22nd, because those of the 35th, and unlike the Raptorsky ones, deviate in all planes, and we already know about the integral unstable glider of the Su-27 family, famous for its high maneuverability. But all this in theory, in real conflict (God forbid), everything will be decided not even by pilots, but systems and circumstances above them.
      1. lance
        lance 26 February 2018 18: 57
        0
        don’t say stupidity, without Avax F-22, a large schuller and the rocket apparently doesn’t direct further 120km. not a single practical launch of the f-22 beyond the specified value is complete
        1. Herman 4223
          Herman 4223 26 February 2018 21: 36
          +1
          And without an avax, he won’t even fly, not individual planes will fight each other, but the air armies. The first role will be played by how these armies are organized, equipped and coordinated. Systems such as AWACS, electronic warfare systems, air defense systems, attack aircraft and drones will all work together. And who will be better organized, equipped and harmonized will win. F22 or Su-35 is only part of the large mechanism that conducts the battle.
      2. dvina71
        dvina71 26 February 2018 19: 21
        +1
        Quote: supertiger21
        Due to more accurate operation of the AFAR radar

        Then what kind of stealth are we talking about? AFAR - emitter-receiver, PFAR .. emitter separately from the receiver. PVP I would put on Pfar ..
    2. Servisinzhener
      Servisinzhener 26 February 2018 21: 52
      0
      It is unknown because the true characteristics of both aircraft and weapons are unknown, plus the skill of specific pilots and a combination of circumstances.
  9. HEATHER
    HEATHER 26 February 2018 17: 06
    +1
    Until the 5th? With the SU-30 and 35 is fantastic. Something that fumbled. But not stupid.
    1. Piramidon
      Piramidon 26 February 2018 20: 53
      0
      Quote: VERESK
      Until the 5th? With the SU-30 and 35 is fantastic. Something that fumbled. But not stupid.

      And where did the term “5th generation” come from? The Yankees created their F-22 type prodigy and said: "This is our 5th generation." And everyone rushed to imitate. Has anyone seen him in a real battle? Maybe he will not pull against the twenty-first MiG.
      1. Grigory_45
        Grigory_45 27 February 2018 00: 08
        +1
        Quote: Piramidon
        And where did the term “5th generation” come from? The Yankees created their F-22 type prodigy and said: "This is our 5th generation." And everyone rushed to imitate. Has anyone seen him in a real battle? Maybe he will not pull against the twenty-first MiG.

        here it means not who beat anyone in battle, but distinctive features of the airplane itself, a set of features by which the machine belongs to a particular generation. For example, if we consider cars, they all also belong to different classes: budget sedan, executive class limousine. You can overtake a limousine on a budget sedan, but this does not make it a limousine. Something like this)
        Quote: Piramidon
        Has anyone seen him in a real battle? Maybe he will not pull against the twenty-first MiG.

        Yes machine potentialthat are visible without any verification. And they are an order of magnitude higher than that of the same MiG-21, for example.
  10. Altona
    Altona 26 February 2018 17: 24
    0
    Quote: Vladimir16
    If the aircraft will easily see the ef35 and 22 at a distance of hundreds of km., Will have a cruising speed higher than the speed of sound, will have weapons with a range of defeat f35 and f22 - 400 km, then its "invisibility" will not be the most important factor.

    ----------------------------
    The chopped nose cone and a slightly reduced lantern silhouette plus a radio-absorbing coating, the sensors will be completely ersatz-stealth.
    1. Grigory_45
      Grigory_45 27 February 2018 00: 02
      +1
      Quote: Altona
      Chopped nose fairing and a slightly reduced silhouette of the lantern, plus a radar absorbing coating, the sensors will be completely ersatz-stealth

      where are you going to get weapons? It will shine the most. Or fly without him? Stealth with a gun?
  11. Altona
    Altona 26 February 2018 17: 25
    0
    Quote: Herkulesich
    And why not immediately until the 7th generation, and even more so with the Indians together?

    ---------------------
    Hypersound and, accordingly, what will the skin be made of, the Schaub did not melt in flight?
  12. Lesorub
    Lesorub 26 February 2018 17: 30
    +2
    Russia and India intend to jointly upgrade the Su-35 aircraft, bringing its characteristics to the fifth generation fighter.

    Su 35 - they will upgrade to the 5th generation) - they will change the glider (since this is one of the foundations of the 5th generation), install a new radar and avionics - in the end we get Su 57 !! )))
    But, of course, the Su 35 has a modernization potential.
  13. Under the dome
    Under the dome 26 February 2018 17: 41
    0
    I doubt the existence of this aircraft.
    1. lance
      lance 26 February 2018 19: 03
      0
      which: su-35s with epr less than 3, su-57. But there is a Su-37berkut with a declared EPR of less than 1. The question remains: how much will be beyond 1 billion, because the f-22 is not a hindrance for all, but the enemy is equivalent (although it is necessary to prove f-22).
  14. serriy
    serriy 26 February 2018 18: 53
    +2
    People are so enthusiastically discussing the modernization of the aircraft. This is a wonderful thing. BUT!!!

    WHY ARE THE MITCHER IN THE VIEW OF INDIA? A suitcase without a pen. They’ll take out their souls. Who else shares modern technology with them? It is modern! Any fools?
    NOBODY, ANY COUNTRY WILL TRANSFER THEM to the production technology of new aircraft engines, radars with an active phased array, modern avionics, and much more !!! What they require for the "joint version" of the T-50.

    Some structures only stick to the dough. These innovators will sell anything for loot. AND SUBSTANTIATE!

    My opinion is IT is betrayal, wrecking. "Good intentions ..."

    We have to do it ourselves, find our resources. And not technology, but technology to trade. After this technique is enough in his army.
  15. APASUS
    APASUS 26 February 2018 19: 31
    0
    Oh, again the Indians? Joy of such information is not particularly brings. India is in disputes and does not understand the terms of reference (they still do not understand what they need) and especially what catches the eye is the price. It seems that the Indians need a cheap version of the 5th generation and the joint modernization of the Su-35, to almost the fifth generation, is quite satisfactory.
  16. Urantian
    Urantian 26 February 2018 20: 35
    0
    The Chinese copy all our developments, introduce and then sell their products .., the Turks and Indians will do the same, plus merge everything with the Americans ..
  17. Sergey Averchenkov
    Sergey Averchenkov 26 February 2018 20: 51
    0
    I think it’s impossible.
  18. Xscorpion
    Xscorpion 26 February 2018 21: 17
    +4
    Quote: supertiger21
    Quote: Pavil144
    Interesting, but not the topic. If f 22 will be without an AWACS aircraft against Su 35. What is the outcome about?


    IMHO, only if judged theoretically, then start the battle from distances over hundreds of kilometers, then the Raptor will be the winner. Due to the more accurate operation of the AFAR radar, it itself remained less visible and shot down that missile with a large radius AIM-120D. But if we are talking about near distances, then almost all of Flanker's trump cards are already here. Even UVT nozzles will not be a good argument on the 22nd, because those of the 35th, and unlike the Raptorsky ones, deviate in all planes, and we already know about the integral unstable glider of the Su-27 family, famous for its high maneuverability. But all this in theory, in real conflict (God forbid), everything will be decided not even by pilots, but systems and circumstances above them.


    It is theoretically on paper that the F-22 has an advantage over long distances. But in fact .. Do you think that the maneuverability of an air target does not affect the chance of its destruction? Any anti-aircraft gunner knows that a sharp maneuver of the target can reduce the chance of missiles getting to zero. Missiles do not constantly go to the target, there is a so-called tracking error, depending on the amplitude of the signals and the guidance method, corrections are made at the target at certain intervals, only the angle the capture is very small, with a sharp maneuver, the target will exit the capture, at long distances, when there is a margin of time for the pilot’s reaction, he uses the maneuver, EW and LTC, as a result the missile will easily lose its target. The result in long-range combat will be one, the Raptor will spend all the missiles. Of course, everything will depend on the qualification and combat experience of the target pilot. But I doubt that inexperienced pilots fly on the SU-35. And in close combat, all the trump cards are for Flanker, I agree, but I think that after the release of long-range missiles, the Raptor pilot, after seeing that the target is not hit, will go to the base without afterburning in the afterburner. In general, there will again be child comparisons of who are stronger alone. In real life, when the Raptor starts an attack and if it finds itself, then rockets from another Su-35 will fly to it, it’s naive to think that our planes will fly alone, and he will have to turn on afterburner and dump, never knowing if his missiles have reached the target, and the big question will be able does he get away from our missiles ..
  19. Servisinzhener
    Servisinzhener 26 February 2018 21: 42
    0
    I wonder how this joint modernization with India will take place. Technology is our money. Or in style I carry a suitcase, and you carry me.
  20. Grigory_45
    Grigory_45 26 February 2018 23: 57
    +2
    The standard design of the Su-35 is consistent with the characteristics of the fifth generation fighter with the exception of a lack of stealth. Apparently, when talking about modernization, the military also have in mind this component.

    You can, of course, put S-shaped air intakes, paint with paint, more composites .. and without a weapon the car will completely pass for the 5th generation. But as soon as the weapons were attached - all its "stealth" is covered with a copper basin. The Su-35 is not the plane into which the internal armament compartment can be integrated .. You can, of course, put two invoices, like conformal tanks of the same Silent Needle, and hang one melee rocket in them .. but what is this will the plane be so short? Bullshit people suffer