Military Review

Knights and Knights of the Rose War era (part 3)

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Last time we met the English armor of the participants of the Rose War, imported from Flanders and Italy, pointing out that Italian and, in particular, Milan armor were no less, if not more popular at that time. It was about the same thing as today is the ownership of a prestigious car brand: you go to "penny" and the price to you is "penny." You sit behind the wheel of a “Bentley”, “Jaguar” or, God forbid, a real “Siler Shadow” - everyone respects you at once. People of that time rated others accordingly.



On the Bosworth field you can see a lot of such and similar to him monuments, noting who was standing where in that decisive battle, which changed the fate of England for the second time.

In this article we will look at another reconstruction of the armor of the Rose War, made on the basis of the extant set of Milan armor, which is on display at the Scott Collection in Glasgow. The “barbute” helmet is adapted to them in the museum, however, the artist Graham Turner considered that it should be replaced with “arme”. Apparently, this armor is approximately 1450 of the year, but could be used much later.

Knights and Knights of the Rose War era (part 3)

"Knight of Glasgow" - a reconstruction of Graham Turner.

These armor also have two plates, on the chest and on the back connected by a leather belt. The chest and back plates are also connected by a hinge on the knight’s left side, and strapped on the right side, i.e., the armor is “tricky”, since the leather parts are in the most protected position from the enemy’s attacks. That is, again, we see that the cuirass has, firstly, in some places a double metal layer, and secondly, the necessary degree of mobility. Below it is a mail "skirt", which does not hinder movement, but protects the genitals and the "skirt" of forged metal strips, arranged according to the type of folding tourist cup. That is, when the knight mounted his horse, the stripes of the skirt went into each other and rose without disturbing him from sitting in the saddle. For walking, both skirts could be replaced with pantons of chain mail, put on under the Shossas, or stockings trousers that fit the legs.


"Knight of Glasgow" - the original.


"Greaves" with fastening loops.

Italian armor is easy to distinguish from all others for a number of signs. This is their obvious "plumpness", and the presence of mail "sabaton", common in Italy. The question arises, what about shoes? But it was not there, that is, it was not in our understanding. For a knight, the sabatons of chain mail on leather podboy or entirely chain mail were just the best shoes.


John Cressi, Richard Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick, William Philip, Lord Baldorf - in the armor of the Rose War era. Fig. Graham turner

Consider now the drawing of Graham Turner, depicting the "knight of Glasgow" in Italian lats about 1450, in more detail.
1. Helmet- "Arme" unassembled. The helmet's dome was made of leather, and the helmet itself was designed so that it could be easily disassembled, which made it possible to easily replace or repair parts damaged in combat.
2. The visor can also be easily removed. For this it was necessary to remove the locking pins on the sides.
3. Bevor chin could be worn on top of the visor, and it was held in place with a strap fastened at the back of the head. That is, "spaced armor" - this is not the prerogative of our modern tanks and she appeared long before the twentieth century!
4. Both the plates of the half-shoulder pad and the plates of plate shoulders — all these parts had protruding ribs that led the spear or sword to the sides. The plates were connected using rivets and on belts.
5. A feature of Italian, Milan, armor was the left shoulder pad of a much larger size than the right one. Well, and if you look at the Milan lats from the back, then many shoulder pads are made to come at each other.
6. As you can see, armor for the arm was very well thought out. All of his metal bands held onto leather straps and rivets in such a way that they would drop on one another without opening their bodies anywhere.
7. The big guard of the “Vanbras”, or hand protection, is typically Italian, judging by its size. And it was fixed on the left elbow pad is very simple: it had a hole for the pin. In the stud was a hole for the pin-lock on the chain.
8. Plate gauntlets were in fact just leather gloves, with metal plates sewn onto it. Moreover, an additional strip of leather was sewn onto each individual finger, and steel plates overlapping each other, or scales, were fastened to it on rivets. The left gauntlet was often different from the right one in that it had one large plate that covered all the fingers, while the right one, since it needed great mobility to hold weapons, had several plates.
9. The “Cuis”, or the nabedrenniy, was again covered with leather with holes at the top, through which the real “shoelaces” were passed in order to tie them to the holes on the hem of the doublet - “paddle” caftan. The kneecap in Italian fashion had large lateral wings. The “mane” - either a leggings, or a greaves - was a two piece on two loops, strapped on the leg with straps with buckles on the inside of the lower leg.
10. With the Italian armor, it was fashionable to wear the Italian “Salad”.
11. Italians have always been great mods, they wore overlaid plates of embossed leather over armor of chain mail, often gilded, and very often covered their helmets with cloth, like this “salad” covered with velvet and decorated with figures of gold-plated copper (approx. 1480). Cheaper helmets went velveteen.


Visitors to the VO website repeatedly asked questions about which knights wore “underwear”. And not just underwear. Here, no one has come up with special frills, but a protective one, with which you can protect your genitals. And I must say that in the collection of the Metropolitan Museum in New York these particular “armor” turned out to be quite a lot. Here, for example, kolchuzhnye cowards, however, the XVI century from Germany. Weight 538.6


These are even heavier: weight 1.16 kg.

The important question is: how many soldiers dressed in metal armor were at the disposal of the commanders of the war era of the Scarlet and White Rose? In the Black Book of King Edward IV, there is evidence of how many squires had been in possession of the nobility of Britain in his time, which, if necessary, they could "call up for a gun." The king is 600, the duke is 240, the marquis is 200, the count is 140, the viscount is 80, the baron is 40 and the simple knight is 16 man. And it was precisely during the Rose War that the number of all troops mobilized during short campaigns reached 50000 people. But, of course, not everyone flaunted in full armor. For example, in many castles, the garrisons were staffed on the principle of three archers per gendarme.


Chainmail continued to be used to protect the neck and lower face. Germany, XV century. 1275.73 weight

The recruitment of troops carried out the "captains", gaining soldiers under the contract. The contract was called "indentura" (or something jagged). Why is that? But the fact is that a fully drafted contract with a specified number of participants and the amount of payment was cut in a zigzag or wavy line and one part remained with the captain, and the other was sent to the royal treasurer for payment. In case of any disputes, it was enough to fold these papers along the cutting line ...


An important part of the armor of the Rose War was the breastplate. Most often, it was arranged in such a way as shown in this figure. "Skirt" when landing in the saddle evolved.


Device "nabryushnik (bottom of the cuirass) and" skirts. "

Treaties were various. For example, in the indenture from 20 of September 1468 of the year, concluded between Lord Scales and Squire John Norbury, it was said about one gendarme and 118 archers hired for 91 day. Under King Edward VI, a knight hired by such a detachment received two shillings a day, a squire one, and an archer even less.

Large detachments of "recruits", that is, militias from peasants and townspeople called up for service, according to documents of 1468 of the year, were "companies" of 1000 people in each, then in turn they were divided into groups of 100 and 20 people. The problem was only with the fact that sometimes the Yorkies and Lancaster were called upon by the same militia. For disobedience, they were threatened with death and ... it also happened that the militia went to serve not their immediate overlord, who, for example, was far away. And the one that was ... closer!

[Center]

Another work by Graham Turner, depicting the knights of the Rose War era. As you can see, their white armor was still very simple and functional.

How perfect and numerous were the weapons of that time? This may be evidenced by a document such as the inventory of Kaister’s castle from 1461, which states that the castle had four breech-loading cannons with eight spare chambers, two guns fired 7-inch (178 mm) stone cores, and two - 5 -inch (127 mm). There was one serpentine with three 10 inches (254 mm) and one 7 inches (178 mm) caliber. Both shot the stone cores. Three guns had a caliber 12 inches (305 mm) and two more short ship guns with six camors. Two small serpentines and four guns were intended for shooting with lead bullets. And all this arsenal was provided with a stock of gunpowder and shells. In addition, the list included seven units of handguns, and another 24 shield from elm, two from baleen plates, eight sets of “white” armor of an obsolete type, ten pairs of worn torso armor, 14 worn “Jacques”, i.e. fabric armor with horny plates sewn onto it, ten bascinet helmets, 24 salad, six plate collars, 16 lead hammers and nine checks. In addition, the list included galvanized helmets, four large steel crossbows, two - with whalebone bows, two - with yew bows, two “gobergeon” (short mail armor) and even a barrel for storing them. Moreover, all this is an arsenal of just one single castle, and far from the most important and large!


Chain collar end of the XV century. Overall length 73.7 cm. Weight 0.85 kg. (Wallace Collection, England)

By the way, one should pay attention to the large stock of interchangeable cameras for the guns, which made it possible to maintain a high rate of fire, since to load the gun it was enough to remove the interchangeable chamber and immediately insert a new one. The trunks for cooling all the time poured water, and since the chamber was abundant, they had time to cool down after the shot.

To be continued ...
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  1. Square
    Square 26 February 2018 06: 24
    +8
    Land tanks in one word
    People have been reaching for armored vehicles since time immemorial
  2. XII Legion
    XII Legion 26 February 2018 07: 14
    +20
    The elite in detail
    National and functional features of the armor - down to the bottom)
    Thank you for continuing the interesting cycle. hi
  3. Curious
    Curious 26 February 2018 08: 21
    +8
    Somewhat off topic about Siler Shadow.

    ROLLS-ROYCE SILVER SHADOW - Silver shadow. Over 5 years, 30059 units were built.
    When the Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow appeared, the then Minister of the Soviet automobile industry A. Tarasov was able to prove the need to purchase several of these machines for familiarization and study. Four cars were ordered through Avtoexport. When they were brought to Moscow and shown to L. I. Brezhnev, he was not enthusiastic about them. The purchased cars were transferred to ZIL, where one of them was used as the personal car of the then director P. Borodin, while others were constantly shot in numerous films. One Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow was created in England specifically for L.I. Brezhnev.
  4. shinobi
    shinobi 26 February 2018 09: 02
    +1
    Everything is wonderful, but how did they cope with the need?
    1. marline
      marline 26 February 2018 10: 25
      +4
      So the bottom armor is not too closed. The place below the back was intensely booked by foot knights and later (and maybe even only for tournaments), but sitting on a horse makes no sense. So he lifted the skirt and go ...
      1. Mikado
        Mikado 26 February 2018 10: 40
        +6
        So he lifted the skirt and go ...

        and a real Scotsman and not necessarily raise laughingdrinks in general, of course, they have a capital defense in front. On the other hand .. you want to "do the job", with kilogram pants you are tormented! request wink
        1. Curious
          Curious 26 February 2018 12: 05
          +7
          The owner of this armor had nothing to do with Scotland. He was a German from Tyrol, Matsch. He owned the castle Schloss Churburg. The armor from the arsenal of this castle also ended up in Glasgow. Left plate gauntlet is a modern remake.
          1. Mikado
            Mikado 26 February 2018 12: 08
            +5
            thanks for the information! hi but I, Viktor Nikolaevich, mentioned the Scots without regard to this armor. You understand, when you’re wearing a skirt in a cage, but under the skirt nothing is “doing things” is even too convenient, especially at the time of a panic! laughing
            1. Curious
              Curious 26 February 2018 12: 36
              +7
              The kilt worn by the Scottish highlanders in the Middle Ages, with the current small kilt, has in common, perhaps only a tartan (pattern). . The medieval kilt was a huge canvas. He draped in folds around the waist and was fixed with a wide leather belt, and the upper free part was thrown over his shoulder and secured with a brooch. This kilt was called great kilt.
              1. Mikado
                Mikado 26 February 2018 12: 59
                +4
                translate: something a la toga, only with a bare backside. wink in the sense of lack of underwear. Damn, they must have been cold! belay
                - And blows from below! They probably won't crawl out of flu!
                - If you don’t want us to be late, then ...
                - Yes, I'm like naked! And as if all eyes are staring at me!
                - Your legs are unlikely to seduce anyone.

                (conversation of two transvestite losers, film "Only girls in jazz) drinks
                1. Curious
                  Curious 26 February 2018 13: 47
                  +5
                  Have you ever met the expression "True Scotsman?" (true scotsman). I also have not met for the time being.
                  This is such a Scottish caustic satire for fans to wear a kilt on her bare ass. You can write an entire article about this custom. Especially about how the army checked the presence of underwear in front of the parades. I did not know these nuances, so I had a small ethnic conflict. The Scots - they are - "fier comme un Ecossais" - "proud as a Scot" and hot-tempered. Glory to St. Andrew, while the comrade was restoring his breath, they found out the reason and came to a consensus. This is how it happens when you do not know the question and joke unsuccessfully.
                  1. Mikado
                    Mikado 26 February 2018 14: 05
                    +3
                    Especially about how the army checked the presence of underwear in front of the parades. I did not know these nuances, so I had a small ethnic conflict.

                    Are you on a business trip in Sheffield his skirt in a pub pulled up, or something, without understanding the back? wink drinks
                    Glory to St. Andrew, while a comrade restored his breath

                    that is, a hot-tempered lover of wearing skirts with a body cross had to spud? belay laughing angry
                    However ... not about the kilt, about your business trips it’s time to write articles! I realized that monkeys are like that, childish pranks. laughing
                    the next memory ... mmm ... what will be: "how I in the jungle of Guatemala kicked the whole tribe of Indians with a key of 18!" fellow drinks
                    1. Curious
                      Curious 26 February 2018 14: 38
                      +6
                      "You are on a business trip to Sheffield"
                      In Drogheda. When drinking local whiskey, I told a friend and said that he drinks like a true Scotsman, because by his last name he was some kind of Mac ... I don’t remember already. And he abruptly went to reduce the distance. With a fright, I accidentally caught his solar plexus.
                      And in the jungle of Guatemala, no key will help you. The jungle, he is. Other tools are needed there. But pale-faced there is difficult. A completely unfamiliar habitat. Local grunt with a key.
                      1. Mikado
                        Mikado 26 February 2018 15: 01
                        +4
                        With a fright, I accidentally caught his solar plexus.

                        Do not blame yourself, Viktor Nikolaevich! stop drinks it's him, such a drunk, slipped on his own spit, and fell on your fist. request And so seventeen times fell. fellow
            2. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 26 February 2018 21: 53
              +2
              "Say thanks that the English taught you to write while standing!" (English replica from the good-neighborly Anglo-Scottish skirmish)
        2. glum
          glum 26 February 2018 15: 01
          +2
          Kilts from the Scots appeared, either in the 17th, or in the 18th century, much later than the described clothing.
    2. kalibr
      26 February 2018 10: 55
      +4
      Very simple. The skirt from the plates was unfastened and easily removed - see fig. Then the ties of chain "cowards" were untied and they were removed, then for small need the slot in the bra was used in the front, as now, or they were lowered, and for the big business the bras came down and ... sit and do a bunch. Then everything happened in the reverse order. The bras rose and tied up, then chain mail shorts, then a skirt was put on.
      1. shinobi
        shinobi 28 February 2018 03: 16
        +2
        A time-consuming and lengthy process, however. You can not succeed with the unexpected. yes
        1. Andrey Yuryevich
          Andrey Yuryevich 28 February 2018 03: 31
          +2
          Quote: shinobi
          A time-consuming and lengthy process, however. You can not succeed with the unexpected. yes

          squire, get a "lyuley" .... (as always!) laughing
  5. marline
    marline 26 February 2018 10: 20
    +4
    Thank you for the article. The armor is really simple and functional.
  6. BRONEVIK
    BRONEVIK 26 February 2018 10: 48
    +17
    Impressive equipment
    Moreover, the development of progress in the field of armaments in the indicated era was combined with a certain grace and the search for new tactical and organizational forms of the use of chivalry (ordinance companies).
    Clearly and interestingly, thanks to the author
  7. BRONEVIK
    BRONEVIK 26 February 2018 10: 48
    +18
    Impressive equipment
    Moreover, the development of progress in the field of armaments in the indicated era was combined with a certain grace and the search for new tactical and organizational forms of the use of chivalry (ordinance companies).
    Clearly and interestingly, thanks to the author
  8. Luga
    Luga 26 February 2018 11: 01
    +6
    Thanks to the author, as always. This is how you need to love all these all these glands to know them so well ... smile
    I was especially curious about the inventory of the contents of the Keister Castle arsenal, firstly, because I didn’t get such information anywhere, and secondly, because there were no swords, cleaver, halberds in the inventory, but instead
    16 lead hammers and nine coinage
    . It is such a weapon, by the way, that is strictly forbidden for use by modern reenactors during competitions in historical medieval battle smile
    So spears, halberds and two-handed swords are, of course, good, but a heavy hammer, a chasing (I prefer the name “klevets”) or a paintbrush, as well as a short massive club or a six-man, are much more effective against such a steel-bound monster, especially if the battle takes place in tight formation.
    1. marline
      marline 26 February 2018 11: 40
      +3
      Quote: Luga
      So spears, halberds and two-handed swords are, of course, good, but a heavy hammer, a chasing (I prefer the name “klevets”) or a paintbrush, as well as a short massive club or a six-man, are much more effective against such a steel-bound monster, especially if the battle takes place in tight formation.

      Katzbalger - even the very name of this sword (a catcoder, ie a sword for “cat dumps”), contradicts what you wrote.
      1. Luga
        Luga 26 February 2018 12: 35
        +3
        Quote: merlin
        Katzbalger - even the very name of this sword (a catcoder, ie a sword for “cat dumps”), contradicts what you wrote.

        Not at all.
        Katzbalger is just one of the varieties of the sword, not the most widespread and popular, its relatively short and massive modification, mind you short и massive. In addition, he appeared at the German Landsknechts about a hundred years later, when protective equipment had already begun to evolve towards relief.
        1. marline
          marline 26 February 2018 12: 48
          +3
          Quote: Luga
          Katzbalger is just one of the varieties of the sword, not the most widespread and popular, its relatively short and massive modification, mind you short и massive.

          Michael, first notice the word sword - this is first. Secondly, about those varieties of the sword that were "relatively short and massive modifications" —there are a lot of them and they have been used quite widely in all historical eras. And, thirdly, the purpose of such “modifications” is well known - close combat in tight formation.
          But your thesis about the effectiveness of weapons of shock-crushing action in close combat still requires evidence and has not been historically confirmed. Moreover, it directly contradicts logic, because if the club was effective, none of the "soldiers of fortune" would have been spent on steel swords. Yours faithfully, hi
          1. Luga
            Luga 26 February 2018 14: 20
            +6
            Quote: merlin
            But your thesis about the effectiveness of weapons of shock-crushing action in close combat still requires evidence and has not been historically confirmed.

            From what? In any museum you will find Morgensterns, and sixth, maces, and Klebs, and if you are lucky, you will also have bristles. There were a lot of them and they were no less common than swords. They simply are not accepted to pay attention to - they are devoid of the poetics and charm inherent in swords. They are simple to manufacture and do not require, in comparison with swords, of course, the high costs of their manufacture both in material and in time, therefore they did not have special value and were not stored from generation to generation, so that only survived the very best, but also quite enough to draw a conclusion about their universal distribution and popularity, and therefore, their effectiveness.
            For the first time, the thesis that you dispute came to my mind not so long ago, maybe a couple of years ago, namely, when I came across the results of a forensic medical study of the skeletons found during excavations in Vladimir and, in my opinion, in Yaroslavl. In most cases, the cause of death is a dull head injury. There are traces of saber attacks, but these attacks were not fatal. The results of a study of skeletons excavated in Visby are also consistent with this. If you say that they simply finished off with a club - perhaps. But there is no evidence of finishing, and characteristic damage - here they are and most of them.
            Quote: merlin
            if the club was effective, none of the "soldiers of fortune" would have been spent on steel swords.

            Everything rests on the question against whom exactly have to fight. Against a fighter fully shackled in steel in tight formation, heavy and short weapons, the center of gravity of which is shifted as far as possible from the handle, is more effective. Pounding a sword on armor is unprofitable, it can be blunted and broken with zero effect (look at a historical medieval battle on YouTube), but a “club” strike is stronger and faster and it’s not a pity. And a slander is an absolute weapon in general - pierces any armor without extra effort.
            Under certain conditions, the sword is certainly effective. Probably, it is also the most versatile of all types of knives, therefore, in all epochs, starting from the Bronze Age, there was a place for it in one form or another. But if I were to fight in tight formation against some “sirs” of “Herrs” or “Chevaliers” of the 15th century, I would prefer a shestoper, a Morgenstern or a slander. And let the sword, as a symbol of knightly honor, hang on its side - be whole.
            1. marline
              marline 26 February 2018 14: 50
              +3
              Quote: Luga
              From what? In any museum you will find morgensterns, and sixth, maces, and klebts, and if you are lucky, you will also have bristles. There were a lot of them and they were no less common than swords.

              Yes, in museums there are a lot of them. Mikhail, are you either inattentive or engaged in demagogy: tell me, did I say somewhere that the shock-crushing weapon did not exist or was it in single samples?
              Quote: Luga
              They simply are not customary to pay attention to - they are devoid of the poetry and charm inherent in swords.

              It is very customary to pay attention to them. Club - is one of the symbols of royal / imperial / imperial power in many countries.
              Quote: Luga
              They are simple to manufacture and do not require, in comparison with swords, of course, the high costs of their manufacture both in material and in time, therefore they did not have special value and were not stored from generation to generation,

              Right. They are also very easy to use: using a club is much easier than using a sword. And now, at least answer yourself: would your ancestors bother with swords if there is such a “wonderful, simple, cheap and effective” weapon like a club?
              Quote: Luga
              to conclude about their (club) universal distribution and popularity, and therefore, effectiveness.

              A large number of weapons of shock-crushing action is not yet proof of its effectiveness. No need to replace concepts.
              Quote: Luga
              In most cases, the cause of death is a dull head injury.

              Maybe it is so. Can you provide links?
              Quote: Luga
              Everything rests on the question against whom exactly have to fight. Against a fighter fully shackled in steel in tight formation, heavy and short weapons, the center of gravity of which is shifted as far as possible from the handle, is more effective.

              Not at all effective. Weapons of impact-crushing action are effective against ringed armor and, only if the battle does not take place in a dense infantry formation, i.e. there is room for maneuver. Think about why. Remember the physics. That is why I wrote that this thesis requires evidence that you did not even think to bring.
              Quote: Luga
              Pounding your armor with a sword is unprofitable, you can dull and break it with zero effect (look at a historical medieval battle on YouTube),

              In addition to forensic medical examinations, it would be useful for you to look at medieval treatises on fencing. Perhaps then you would not "beat with the sword in the armor." Look on YouTube for a historical medieval battle. Look for the historical one, i.e. on fekhbuki, but not amateur reconstruction.
              Quote: Luga
              But if I were to fight in tight formation against some “sirs” of “Herrs” or “Chevaliers” of the XNUMXth century, I would prefer a shestoper, a Morgenstern or a slander. And let the sword, as a symbol of knightly honor, hang on its side - be whole.

              I have already given you an example of a Landsknecht. Tell me, do you fundamentally not notice the opponent’s arguments?
              1. Luga
                Luga 26 February 2018 16: 57
                +3
                I'll start from the end.
                Lansknechty appeared as a military corporation about a hundred years later than the period under review and fought in fundamentally different conditions. Their weapons corresponded to their era, and even in those conditions the katsbalger was only an auxiliary weapon for them and at the same time it was relatively rare. I already wrote about this at the very beginning.
                Treatises on fencing, mainly written in the XVI - XIX centuries. That is, swords, rapiers, sabers. The historical fencing, which you probably have in mind, is production, designed to demonstrate the technique of owning a blade, and not its destructive effect on the target. But when I see how healthy and strong men are beating, albeit with blunt, but heavy pieces of iron, each other with all their might, without visible consequences, doubts about the effectiveness of their weapons cannot but sneak up. And the fact that clubs, wrists, etc. they are categorically prohibited, also leads to certain thoughts.
                Next:
                Quote: merlin
                Not at all effective. Weapons of impact-crushing action are effective against ringed armor and, only if the battle does not take place in a dense infantry formation, i.e. there is room for maneuver. Think about why. Remember the physics. That is why I wrote that this thesis requires evidence that you did not even think to bring.

                I thought. I remembered. Remained in his opinion. I’m even surprised that someone can think differently. For a mace or a six-step, less space and time are required for the swing, and due to the displacement of the center of gravity from the handle, the impact force will not give way to a long blade, with the center of gravity near the handle. Now it's your turn to think and remember, and even better to try it personally, well, at least with a piece of reinforcement and a hammer of the same weight.
                That's about the links - I tried to find, I did not find that particular page. Another surfaced, not that, of course, but for lack of a better moment ...
                http://oldstory.info/index.php?/topic/30625-%D0%B
                A%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5-%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B
                2%D0%BC%D1%8B-%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%83%D1%87%D0%B
                0%D0%BB%D0%B8-%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%8B-%D0%
                B2-%D1%81%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5-%D0
                %B2%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%B0/
                Do not judge strictly, there is very little information, even less is needed, but it will do for seed. Then try it yourself.
                But as for the substitution of concepts in which you reproached me - here I do not agree with you. A large number of this or that weapon just testifies to its popularity, which means simplicity and effectiveness.
                Quote: merlin
                Did I somewhere claim that the weapons of shock-crushing action did not exist or was it in single samples?

                No, they didn’t. I did not dispute this. No need to so primitively try to reduce my arguments to your absurdity. I wrote that the weapon of shock-crushing action was very common in all ages, including the one under consideration, but because of its simplicity and undemandingness it could not become a symbol of a privileged military estate, it became a sword. In addition, the sword is more versatile, although for any specific conditions you can find weapons more suitable. In this case, we are talking about foot combat against a knight in full armor in tight standing, here a short and massive weapon will be a clear advantage, whereas in a duel on the arena where there is room for a swing, an ax or a war hammer would be preferable.
                1. marline
                  marline 26 February 2018 17: 42
                  +1
                  [quote = Luga] Lansknekhty appeared as a military corporation about a hundred years later than the period under review and fought in fundamentally different conditions. [/ quote]
                  Since 1470 Those. since the end of the 15th century. Congratulations to you, you can’t tell me otherwise ...
                  [quote = Luga] Their weapons corresponded to their era and even in those conditions the katsbalger was only an auxiliary weapon for them and at the same time it was relatively rare. [/ quote]
                  This is just the era of plate armor and their maximum development. As for the auxiliary, I agree (the main one is the peak), the rare one - so far only your idle speculations from the confirmations. The second name for this sword is Landsknetta.
                  [quote = Luga] Treatises on fencing, mainly written in the XVI - XIX centuries., [/ Quote]
                  Fencing manuals are known since XIII. Once again, I congratulate you on lies ...
                  [quote = Luga] But when I see how healthy and strong men are beating, albeit with blunt, but heavy pieces of iron, each other with all their might, without visible consequences, doubts about the effectiveness of their weapons cannot help but sneak in. [/ quote]
                  Not that look. I already wrote to you - amateur reenactment productions can be safely sent to the bin. I like a parrot you repeat five times? You at least read the comments.
                  [quote = Luga] I thought. I remembered. [/ quote]
                  Bad remembered. Hint: you need to recall the rule of leverage and Newton's laws.
                  [quote = Luga] For a club or a six-pole, less space and time are required for the swing, and due to the displacement of the center of gravity from the handle, the impact force will not yield to a long blade, with the center of gravity near the handle. [/ quote]
                  You can just poke the sword - it takes a minimum of space and time. But waving a club in a dense infantry formation, you are more likely not to hit the enemy, but to inflict an ally on the kumpol. Okay, so be it, I’ll tell you one more secret: according to Newton’s laws (and, which is also characteristic in life), your opponent with a baton in full plate armor will not even notice. But to notice - you need a lot of leverage and mass, i.e. something like a lucerne hammer. Surprisingly, it was such a shock-crushing weapon that was very respected by the Landsknechts, why would it?
                  [quote = Luga] Do not judge strictly, there is very little information, even less is needed, but it will work for the seed. [/ quote]
                  Thanks and on that.
                  [quote = Luga] A large number of this or that weapon just testifies to its popularity, which means simplicity and effectiveness.
                  Quantity does not go into quality. Simplicity - yes, but not efficiency.
                  [quote = Luga] In this case, we are talking about a foot battle against a knight in full armor in tight standing, here a short and massive weapon will be a clear advantage, whereas in a duel on the lists, where there is room for a swing, a poleax or a war hammer will be preferable . [/ quote]
                  Third time, proof in the studio. Understand I read about the "short and massive weapon" in your first post and still waiting for at least some confirmation.
                  1. Luga
                    Luga 26 February 2018 19: 40
                    +4
                    You yourself have chosen this style of communication, now do not be offended. I tried to avoid unnecessary barbs and sarcasm, now I will not.
                    So, according to Lansknecht. At the end of the XV century. Landsknechts called the land militia, which carried exclusively police functions. They began to turn into a military corporation from the beginning of the 16th century. thanks to the efforts of Emperor Maximilian I, who on their base tried (and not unsuccessfully) to create a counterweight to the Swiss. Do not limit yourself to Wikipedia when acquiring new knowledge. However, even it contains images of Landsknechts and the 15th century, they do not correspond at all, even you should understand this. On the same page, if you read it, it is written in Russian that the Landsknechts actively used handguns. And so, for your own overall development, find at least one katsbalger of the 15th century.
                    Quote: merlin
                    This is just the era of plate armor and their maximum development.

                    The end of the XV century I explain for the slow-witted - the fifteenth. 1400 years. Since the end of the XV century. armor is steadily starting to lighten, for firearms began to develop rapidly. The relationship of these phenomena need to be explained?
                    Quote: merlin
                    Fencing manuals are known since XIII. Once again, I congratulate you on lies ...

                    I look forward to at least the names of authors and titles of works. I don’t even count on links, although I would like to read.
                    Quote: merlin
                    amateur reenactment productions can be safely sent to the urn

                    Will you watch theatrical performances? Or competition athletes? Then it’s better to immediately boldly send your head to the urn.
                    I repeat once again for you, if you did not understand the first time - sports and stage productions can give an idea only about the technique of owning a blade, and not about its effect on the target.
                    Quote: merlin
                    Your adversary in full plate armor will not even notice your blow with a club

                    Well, after all, those who are now running in armor and are beating each other with kilogram pieces of iron are afraid of something. Cowardly, probably. I recommend that you explain this to them, on occasion, preferably in the same tone as me. I hope they put a helmet on you and hit them slightly once with a brush or a mace. You might be wiser.
                    By the way, those who formed the arsenal of Keister Castle also did not stock up on swords, but stock up on hammers and klebs.
                    Quote: merlin
                    it was such a shock-crushing weapon that was very respected by the Landsknechts, why would it?

                    Oh, not a katsbalger anymore? Ah, yes, the katsbalger is auxiliary ... But the main thing, I’m afraid to ask, is shock-crushing after all? What is it for?
                    Quote: merlin
                    Third time, proof in the studio.

                    Proof of what? That, ceteris paribus, a blow with a hammer will be stronger than a blow with a steel bar? God be with you, look for this evidence yourself - in the school physics textbook, at least. At the same time, repeat Newton’s laws, there, the mass is accelerated, there’s a chapter about the center of gravity and much more. But no - try to hammer a nail with a hammer, and then, for example, with a metal corner equal in weight. Feel the difference.
                    What other evidence do you have?
                    And about the "poke" the sword ... There are no words. "Poke" with benefit can only be in an unprotected place, of which the knight had very few, as we see. And so - poke at least from the start, only people have fun. laughing
                    Of course, I can understand the offended romance: how so, the sword, it’s beautiful, and it’s with dirty hands, with a stick, and even in favor of a stick, to compare ... And so. It happens. Accept this, life will present you with many more disappointments, and this, I assure you, is not the strongest.
                    1. Curious
                      Curious 26 February 2018 22: 17
                      +3
                      "Fencing manuals are known since XIII."
                      “I look forward to at least the names of authors and titles of works. I don’t even count on links, although I would like to read.”

                      Walpurgis Fechtbuch. German manual for fencing.

                      Until 1988, it belonged to the 1295th century (2012). Then, after several revisions, in 1320, they stopped at 1330-XNUMX.
                      In the XIV century, more than two dozen Fechtbuchs are known.
                      http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Tournament_book,
                      http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Walpurgis_Fechtbuch_(M
                      S_I.33)
                      http://www.thearma.org/ManuscriptListPre1650.html
                      1. Luga
                        Luga 26 February 2018 23: 20
                        +3
                        Thank. Wrote in the search for "walpurgis fechtbuk" and received enough information for the first time.
                    2. marline
                      marline 27 February 2018 10: 15
                      0
                      Quote: Luga
                      You yourself have chosen this style of communication, now do not be offended.

                      In no case. Especially on you. What for?
                      Quote: Luga
                      So, according to Lansknecht.

                      In close formation, i.e. In a dense infantry formation, professional infantry battles. If you still read the story, then find out that in the Middle Ages there was no professional infantry. The first professional infantry formations were the Swiss and Landsknechts. They fought in tight formation. They fought, including, and against the armored men. And they did not use clubs as weapons. Regarding firearms - again, learn the story: with the development of firearms, the battles of the pikemen lost the battlefield to the thirds first, and then finally disappeared with the development of linear tactics. The dense construction of infantry columns and squares briefly revived only Suvorov and Napoleon.
                      Quote: Luga
                      Since the end of the XV century. armor is steadily starting to lighten, for firearms began to develop rapidly. The relationship of these phenomena need to be explained?

                      Yes? And how much easier have they become? Specifically, in kilograms, how much is full 15v plate armor. lighter than the "three-quarter" cuirassier, bulletproof beginning of the 17th century?
                      Quote: Luga
                      I repeat once again for you, if you did not understand the first time - sports and stage productions can only give an idea about the technique of owning a blade,

                      That's right, I sent you the technique. You were too lazy, well, or you were banned in Google, then I don’t know ...
                      Quote: Luga
                      Well, after all, those who are now in armor running and slamming each other with kilogram pieces of iron are afraid of something.

                      These men were given to you! You have some unhealthy interest in them!
                      You see, even if they sharpen their glands, it will absolutely not change anything by the effect on the armor - armor will not be cut with a sword. And it is forbidden to sharpen, so as not to be cut in a dope from drunken eyes. For the same reason, your favorite batons are prohibited. And all the same, when drunk, they manage to get injured - well, whatever the child would have fun ...
                      Quote: Luga
                      they will put a helmet on you and knock them slightly once with a brush or a mace.

                      In the worst case for me, there will be a slight concussion - and this is if given a good swing, i.e. never deadly at all. And note, once again, this cannot be done in tight construction.
                      Quote: Luga
                      By the way, those who formed the arsenal of Keister Castle also did not stock up on swords, but stock up on hammers and klebs.

                      Arming peasant militias with swords is pointless.
                      Quote: Luga
                      Oh, not a katsbalger anymore? Oh yes, the katsbalger is auxiliary ...

                      Distort? How cute wink
                      Quote: Luga
                      But the main thing, I'm afraid to ask, is it impact-crushing? What is it for?

                      Apparently to the fact that you do not know how to read. wink
                      Quote: Luga
                      Proof of what?

                      Proof that the infantry in close formation in close combat against the armor used maces and klevets. Do not make a fool of yourself; I already have a low opinion of you. wink
                      Quote: Luga
                      What other evidence do you have?

                      Take a faceted glass, put on top a small anvil (just a weight), hit with a hammer on top. Then hit hard with a hammer, then hit very hard. Then pour vodka into a glass, drink and go to study physics.
                      Quote: Luga
                      And about the "poke" the sword ... There are no words. "Poke" with benefit can only be in an unprotected place, of which the knight had very few, as we see.

                      So no one promised it would be easy. That's why they are armors that it is not easy to kill a knight in them.
                      Quote: Luga
                      Of course, I can understand the offended romance: how so, the sword, it’s beautiful, and it’s with dirty hands, with a stick, and even in favor of a stick, to compare ... And so. It happens. Accept this, life will present you with many more disappointments, and this, I assure you, is not the strongest.

                      How many pathos, what a drama, but apparently nothing to say in the case ...
                      Indeed, what is there to be offended by you?
                    3. brn521
                      brn521 27 February 2018 12: 01
                      +2
                      You could always carry a sword with you, both in peacetime and in wartime. To indicate the status, and of course the protection of honor and wallet. So there were swords, there were many, just they were not in the arsenals. This is the most effective weapon against an unmarked and lightly armored enemy - by the way, and in wartime there were many. I don’t argue, it is not easy to pick a full-fledged fighter with a sword, but how many were there, how often did they meet and how many hours a week were able to wear their full armor? The knights learned to handle a variety of weapons, but did not carry them with them. Received in local arsenals depending on the task. For example, the castle’s permanent arsenal involved the defense of walls, on which heavy attack aircraft usually climbed stairs, in which one helmet weighed 15-20 kilograms. Maximum security, minimum mobility and almost zero visibility. But hammers are needed for them. Whereas in the field of a knight, before you hammer on the head with a hammer, you must first catch and carefully fix it. Lead hammers are highly specialized weapons.
                      As for the dead with blunt skull injuries. It is rather characteristic of the victims of some cavalry. It was the cavalrymen who preferred to knock on the head of the infantry with crushing weapons. The same Mongols used clubs, maces, and brushes. The infantry itself used stabbing and chopping weapons against the other infantry. She never had 100% protection - the pieces of iron on her arms and legs ate stamina. A stamina for infantry is a defining characteristic. So they wore on foot a maximum of three-quarter armor, and even then, if there was a hefty convoy behind him, on which all this could be transported. They suffered through this - they lost their arms and legs. More often than legs. Despite the fact that the helmets of the infantry were also lightweight, providing good visibility and free breathing. It would seem that a great reason to roam the notorious "clubs." But no, they didn’t go for a walk - they can be reliably obtained only by a dismounted knight in a deaf helmet who sees nothing and does not hear anything. Well, or a stormtrooper climbing a wall. And while you get an ordinary infantryman, you’ll substitute yourself, and a stamina will eat such weapons immensely. So it’s rather the other way around, this equestrian knight will outline the infantry with a mace along the head. Because the balance of the sword is not the same, and the blade deteriorates, the ax in turtles and helmets gets stuck, and any village blacksmith can rivet a mace in the shortest possible time from the cheapest iron.
                      1. marline
                        marline 27 February 2018 12: 22
                        +2
                        Ivan, I agree with everything, except for one point:
                        Quote: brn521
                        ... heavy attack aircraft, in which one helmet weighed 15-20 pounds.

                        I honestly haven’t met such heavy ones yet. Up to a maximum of 7 kg, and even then with a burgundy.
  9. Curious
    Curious 26 February 2018 15: 03
    +2
    Mikado,
    God forbid, what a fist is there. I hit my knee. How he managed, I still do not understand.
    1. Mikado
      Mikado 26 February 2018 15: 18
      +2
      I hit my knee. How he managed, I still do not understand.

      then you are wildly lucky that the Basurman fell successfully - a solar plexus on his knee. If he slipped, such an ogloed, about twenty centimeters further - he would have fallen forehead in the groin laughing drinks
      1. Curious
        Curious 26 February 2018 15: 45
        +2
        So if he slipped, it would be easier. He was engaged in some kind of national struggle, so he went on to fight, like sailors at the Winter Palace. And the weight in it is eight pounds. It scares anyone.
        1. Mikado
          Mikado 26 February 2018 16: 00
          +2
          He was engaged in some kind of national struggle

          I thought they had a national struggle - raising glasses. laughing Although .. there is a wonderful film called “Male Striptease”, about how a group of unemployed Scottish metallurgists decides to start shining with their bodies on stage. here is definitely a sport! laughing I recommend! drinks
          but in general ... lucky this "real Scotsman" .. very lucky .. wink angry
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 26 February 2018 21: 29
            +2
            They have a national sport - running with a log on his shoulder over rough terrain.
            1. Curious
              Curious 26 February 2018 22: 37
              +2
              Perhaps he wanted to run on my shoulder with me? And according to the expression on his face, I would not say.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 26 February 2018 23: 44
                +2
                As I understand it, after applying dynamic loads to the body, the person began to express abilities for verbal communication. That is why with highlander (any) it is always so, does an individual begin to rapidly evolve into a rational creature only after a light concussion?
                1. Curious
                  Curious 27 February 2018 01: 09
                  +2
                  Yes, he was a normal Scot. They have some kind of national oddity connected with this. Used to be cut to death. So he decided that I wanted to offend him. I then did not know these subtleties of their mentality. After all, we also have topics that should not be touched. It happens.
          2. Curious
            Curious 26 February 2018 23: 31
            +3
            "... begin to shine on the stage with teles. That is definitely a sport! I recommend it!"
            Are you offering me to become an exhibitionist in my old age? So there are already enough of them without me.
            1. Mikado
              Mikado 27 February 2018 10: 03
              +2
              Are you offering me to become an exhibitionist in my old age? So there are already enough of them without me.

              they call themselves dancers. hi And they pay money for it! fellow also for notes from underpants they will stick notes, by the way wink You decide! laughing drinks
              1. Curious
                Curious 27 February 2018 12: 04
                +2
                "... also, for the rubber band from the cowards, they will stick the bills ..." And somewhere else they will not stick something? No thanks, I'm after you. Young people are always dear to us.
                1. Mikado
                  Mikado 27 February 2018 12: 16
                  +3
                  And somewhere else they will not stick something?

                  looking at "what kind of clubs of interest" will act wink
                  Young people everywhere are dear to us.

                  I don’t speak languages, so that I can speak abroad! request and in St. Petersburg I already have enough work, there’s no time to write recourse ... uh ... and I always dreamed of being an artist ... crying
                  1. Curious
                    Curious 27 February 2018 12: 24
                    +3
                    "... I don’t speak languages ​​to speak abroad!"
                    I am not an expert, but it seems to me that the language proposed for discussion is not needed at all. You can even attract deaf and dumb people with appropriate characteristics.
                    1. Mikado
                      Mikado 27 February 2018 12: 52
                      +2
                      deaf and dumb stop they cannot listen to music, but how to dance then? request In general, Viktor Nikolaevich, we have a good troupe selected. good We are on stage, as two opposites, so to speak, “enchanting contrast”, we can take Elena as a choreographer, and Vyacheslav Olegovich will prepare the posters for us! drinks To paraphrase Vysotsky: "According to them, the woman was crazy, well, the same thing, muzhuki" laughing drinks
                      1. Curious
                        Curious 27 February 2018 13: 19
                        +2
                        No, I don’t agree with shaking eggs before idiots. I perfectly own the corresponding software, I will make posters. And the marketing experience (practical) is decent. I will spin the project. And let Shpakovsky move from theory to practice a little, make you a couple.
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 27 February 2018 21: 33
                        +1
                        Andrei Mironov did not have a musical ear at all, but he did great vocals.
  10. glum
    glum 26 February 2018 15: 04
    +1
    I don’t understand how they fought on the battlefield carrying a kilogram of 30-40 iron. Well this waved his sword for about 5 minutes and byrek back to the camp to rest.
  11. Brutan
    Brutan 26 February 2018 21: 03
    +2
    In such armor
    good that the crusades are over
  12. Weyland
    Weyland 26 February 2018 22: 50
    +3
    no less, if not even more popular at that time were Italian and, in particular, Milanese armor. It was about the same as nowadays owning a car of a prestigious brand: you go to the “penny” and the price for you is “penny”. Sitting behind the wheel of a Bentley, Jaguar, or, God forbid, the real Siler Shadow, everyone respects you right away. People of that time rated others accordingly.

    How to say ... I somehow never met Chinese copies of the "jaguar", and it was much easier to falsify the armor. Milanese armor differed from any English cheap thing primarily not in form or finish, but in the quality of steel. It was not for nothing that they called the cheap “Eisenpancer” the “Schisenpancer” - in terms of hardness it corresponded to a tin and was chopped down with a decent sword or a banal peasant ax at times. And the Milanese armor is made of high-quality and competently heat-treated high-carbon steel made of so-called “Brescia technology”, in terms of hardness, strength and level of protection, is comparable with armor and helmets of WWII - it was possible to break it only with a bill, a halberd or a polex (any sword was dull or curled about it - even the coolest damask and damascus). But he was also valued at about the weight of silver - more expensive than an eisenpantser every 30-35.
  13. brn521
    brn521 27 February 2018 13: 41
    +2
    Quote: merlin
    I honestly haven’t met such heavy ones yet. Up to a maximum of 7 kg, and even then with a burgundy.

    I admit a mistake. Pounds, not kilograms.
    1. marline
      marline 27 February 2018 13: 56
      +2
      Quote: brn521
      I admit a mistake. Pounds, not kilograms.

      Lambs are insidious. wink
  14. Mikado
    Mikado 27 February 2018 14: 19
    +3
    Curious,
    No, I don’t agree with shaking eggs before idiots. I perfectly own the corresponding software, I will make posters. And the marketing experience (practical) is decent. I will spin the project. And let Shpakovsky move from theory to practice a little, make you a couple.

    1. no one personally makes you shake just before. stop You can shake it backwards. fellow 2. Do not shift to Shpakovsky - he did not participate in the discussion of the kilt initially. stop 3. multidisciplinary specialists on the site and so on. request I would tell Anton or Marat about the opportunity, so their first question would be: "When are we flying?" good drinks
    1. Curious
      Curious 27 February 2018 14: 30
      +3
      Well, no, and no trial.
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 27 February 2018 21: 30
      +3
      First question: "Where are we going?" There are geographical points where I will not go for any carriages. And if on Mars, then "Why not yesterday?"
      1. Mikado
        Mikado 27 February 2018 21: 53
        +3
        to Mars - it's to the Mask. This pretzel may fly what
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 27 February 2018 22: 13
          +2
          Already said -Mask will not fly, the dough is not enough.
          1. Mikado
            Mikado 27 February 2018 22: 30
            +3
            Yesterday the article was - the Americans are going to build some kind of catapult to launch satellites. Immediately a joke of ten years ago about the first Chinese satellite and a big slingshot was remembered.
  15. Mikado
    Mikado 27 February 2018 21: 56
    +2
    3x3zsave,
    Andrei Mironov did not have a musical ear at all, but he did great vocals.

    but he was not deaf! request Anton .. what about your choreography? wink and then Viktor Nikolaevich turned on the “snob”. I have already promised him the nominal shiny thong with rhinestones from the first fee, and he didn’t! laughing drinks
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 27 February 2018 22: 08
      +2
      Entry-level tango only
      1. Mikado
        Mikado 27 February 2018 22: 26
        +2
        Well, by the way, dancing tango is a whole art! good eh, sales envy of something with white envy. drinks mmm .. that means there is already one professional in the troupe ... what
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 27 February 2018 22: 42
          +1
          Do not envy, try it yourself, it's easier than driving a car.
          1. Mikado
            Mikado 27 February 2018 22: 50
            +2
            from my own experience - it’s definitely harder to drive a horse than a car. laughing
            1. Curious
              Curious 28 February 2018 19: 31
              +3
              You don’t need to drive a horse at all, she herself knows where to go. With her, the main thing is mutual understanding and mutual respect.
              1. Mikado
                Mikado 1 March 2018 10: 07
                +1
                cats are prettier to me ... request Happy First Spring Day, Viktor Nikolaevich! Change is coming! drinks everything will be fine. This is me, as the Preacher, I say. wink
                1. Curious
                  Curious 1 March 2018 12: 11
                  +1
                  Yes, spring! -10 and wind gusts up to 25 m / s at 98% humidity. The third day snow. The forecast is up to -18. With our wind and humidity - that's it.
                  1. Mikado
                    Mikado 1 March 2018 12: 47
                    +3
                    we had below -20 tonight. And .. the humidity is worse than yours. fellow There is just no snow, sun. Peter! True, it seems that in Moscow it is even colder.
                    1. marline
                      marline 1 March 2018 12: 49
                      +2
                      Quote: Mikado
                      True, it seems that in Moscow it is even colder.

                      -13 is already getting warm, although yesterday it was true, it was somewhat cool. smile
                      1. Mikado
                        Mikado 2 March 2018 00: 42
                        +2
                        Yes. According to the forecast, it will be warmer next week. drinks
            2. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 2 March 2018 21: 43
              +1
              Horses for me are "terra inkognito", I am more for deer and dogs, well, a little for helicopters and other small aircraft.
  16. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 2 March 2018 21: 47
    +2
    Mikado,

    Normal St. Petersburg winter, "+1, 0, +2" will come in the second half of March.
    1. Mikado
      Mikado 3 March 2018 11: 54
      +3
      here! the main thing is that it gets warmer, and the storm sewer works! wink it is so professional drinks