Military Review

The irrelevant "second life" of NATO 5,56X45

48
For some time now, the NATO patron 5,56х45, which is central to the individual weapons The North Atlantic Alliance, under which released countless samples of combat, service and civilian rifles and carbines, is being criticized.
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Adopted by the US Army in the 1964 year, together with the AR-15 rifle, this low-pulse, and one can say revolutionary cartridge for that time ensured acceptable accuracy of automatic fire and effective action on the target at short and medium distances. In addition, its low weight allowed us to increase wearable ammunition almost two-fold, compared with the NATO 7,62x51 cartridge. Of course, the new cartridge is somewhat inferior in effective range to its predecessor.

Thus, the famous American practitioner-gunner and instructor Gabriel Suárez stands for “acceptable wound ballistics” 5,56 x45 with a distance of 200 yards. But for an assault rifle such indicators were considered sufficient.

Since the beginning of this century, the military of the Western bloc countries have increasingly expressed discontent with this patron. Most of the claims were related to operations in Afghanistan and the Middle East. In particular, in connection with the widespread use of “belts of shakhids” among militants, the NATO military began to complain about the lack of “lethal action” that does not ensure the guaranteed elimination of the enemy from a single shot. In addition, it is reported that NATO’s 5,56X45 bullet is not very effective against targets protected by body armor, which today are widespread even among militants of illegal armed formations.

Based on the Afghan and Iraqi experience, the US Department of Defense presented a report stating that it was no longer possible to postpone the replacement of the “assault rifle-cartridge” rifle complex. As, according to the document, the weapons of the American military were inferior in some parameters to AK-47, the main weapon of the enemy.

It was said about the lack of penetration ability of the cartridge 5, 56х45, whose bullets could not even penetrate the sides of the truck in some cases at a time when the lines from the AK were easily pierced through the walls of brick and foam blocks and hit the fighters who had hidden behind them.

Including, on the basis of this report, several contests were announced to replace an assault rifle, but all of them ended in nothing. One of them, “Interim Combat Service Rifle”, which involves replacing the current individual weapons with a rifle complex based on the 7,62x51 cartridge, was completed ahead of schedule last fall under the pretext of redistributing the military budget. However, the experts gave a “surprising” conclusion about the unsuitability of the cartridge of this caliber for assault rifles due to excessive scattering. As if this circumstance did not become the main reason for adopting in the 1964 of the rifle complex under the cartridge 5,56х45!

It must be said that gunsmiths offer several options for a compromise, trying to achieve higher power, with moderate returns. So in particular was the cartridge 6,5х39 Grendel, which became widespread in the civilian market. Or the cartridge 6,8X43 Remington SPC, which, in combination with the Barrett REC7 carbine with a short stroke of the gas piston, participated in the Pentagon’s program to create a “future rifle”.

An even more revolutionary approach was implemented in another contestant of the competition - Textron carbine. The innovative 6,5 mm cartridge used in it has an unusual layout - the bullet is completely hidden in the sleeve, which is made using polymers.
However, the chances that these or similar complexes will become mass armaments of armies are small. After all, any transition from the widespread types of ammunition for existing small arms is associated with huge costs for procurement and logistics.
In this regard, the approach of the Israelis seems to be much more promising, as they strive to maximize the characteristics of the available ammunition.

The Israeli portal Globes reports that the company Israel Military Industries has announced serious achievements in the modernization of the NATO 5,56x45 cartridge. They created a cartridge, the successful tests of which showed that it exceeds the penetrating ability of a 7,62 caliber bullet. (It’s not specified which cartridge - 7,62х39 or 7,62х51. Since their nomenclature is huge and the characteristics are different, without specifying which ammunition is being compared with, this statement is more like a publicity stunt).

At a distance of 800 meters, the Israeli “superpool” punches a steel plate with a thickness of 3,4 millimeters. While the conventional MXNNXX 855XXNNXX cartridge bullet, NATO is capable of piercing a steel plate three millimeters thick at a distance of 5,56 meters.

It is possible that if the Israeli developers really managed to create a munition with improved characteristics, it will allow to remove some of the claims to the existing assault rifles under NATO 5,56x45.

How necessary is this in reality? In modern wars, which lead the Western bloc and Israel, they prefer to avoid contact clashes, and an assault rifle for most of the soldiers of these armies, rather a self-defense weapon used at distances where the capabilities of the regular M855 cartridge are sufficient. Special Forces has the ability to use any weapon of a limited standard suitable for its tasks. That is, the task of replacing, or even modernizing, the “cartridge-assault rifle” rifle complex for most NATO countries is by no means a priority (as the Pentagon representatives actually acknowledged with regard to the Interim Combat Service Rifle program).

Most of the announced contests are more likely connected with the appetites of gunsmiths and their lobbyists in government bodies and military departments.
Incidentally, Israel Military Industries Israel’s Ammunition Division Chief, Israel’s Supermouth, stated that the company’s “superpool” was developed by the company as a proposal for a request from the armed forces of many countries in need of universal munitions with improved performance, combining high accuracy and penetration.

That is, the objectives of the program are purely commercial, and are mainly focused on export. And if the development is really successful, it may well be in demand on the global arms market. In any case, there are prerequisites for this. The legend of "weakness", and even the "unsuitability" of the standard NATO 5,56х45, has taken firm roots in public consciousness.
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48 comments
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  1. andrewkor
    andrewkor 13 February 2018 07: 20
    +3
    According to my scanty information, the equipment of the Russian cartridge 5,45 * 39 also underwent a serious evolution with 7N6,7N10,7N22 bullets of various modifications. During tests on various obstacles, they didn’t shoot further for 250 m, the results are excellent (Master Gun). Of course, gunpowder in the sleeve 45mm. obviously more + the quality of the gunpowder from here and the advantages in the firing range (800m. !!!) But this is so, by the way. But in essence the question is my opinion that it is not necessary to reinvent the wheel in the form of “innovative” 6,5mm. heart return to your beloved 7,62 * 39. "The potential of the cartridge model 1943 is far from exhausted" - MT Kalashnikov after adopting the AK-74! We need a breakthrough in the development of gunpowder, which was the invention, at one time smokeless gunpowder!
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 13 February 2018 07: 48
      +6
      Quote: andrewkor
      But in essence, my opinion is that you do not need to reinvent the wheel in the form of "innovative" 6,5mm
      At the very beginning it was necessary to look towards 6,5 mm and not hang out 7,62 / 5,45.
      They would shorten Arisaki’s sleeve, make a pointed bullet and serve as a cartridge 200 years more! And there, you look, liquid powder ...

      would ... would ... would ...
      1. andrewkor
        andrewkor 13 February 2018 08: 42
        +1
        I agree with you and V.G. Fedorov, but objective innovations have always interfered with this innovation: WWI, Civil, devastation, restoration, VM
        In, devastation, recovery. The military used to demand weapons “at a higher price, at a cheaper price!” Not that the “current tribe” that they felt a taste for cutting the military budget!
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 13 February 2018 10: 42
          +1
          Quote: andrewkor
          but this innovation has always been hindered by objective reasons: WWI, Civil, devastation, recovery, VM
          Who prevented to adopt not 7,63x39, but 6,5x45?
          1. andrewkor
            andrewkor 13 February 2018 13: 35
            0
            Honestly, I’m completely unaware, not a professional, just an amateur, a little well-read. You, excuse me.
            1. avg avg
              avg avg 14 February 2018 06: 32
              0
              Ah, so you are a professional on budget cuts! Couch Expert
          2. prosto_rgb
            prosto_rgb 13 February 2018 23: 03
            0
            Quote: Simargl
            Who prevented to adopt not 7,63x39, but 6,5x45?

            the gas pressure at the outflow from the bore is greater, and the military wanted less
            and besides, the entire tool is sharpened by 7,62. the next gauge is already 12,7 and not so much.
            but of course I am for 6,5
        2. John22
          John22 13 February 2018 14: 09
          +1
          1. Voroshilov prevented Fedorov from the beginning, as the people's commissar of defense. And later the commission, whose attitude towards the former tsarist general remained disgusting.
          2. After 1945, the technological backlog of cartridge and weapons production still interfered. Cartridge 7,62x39 arr. 1943 brought to 1949
          3. And it would be necessary to change the cartridge 7,62x54R to bezravotnoy - because switched to new machine guns, and abandoned the rifle.
      2. Droid
        Droid 14 February 2018 09: 11
        +1
        Quote: Simargl
        At the very beginning it was necessary to look towards 6,5 mm

        Watched. They refused.
        1. Michael HORNET
          Michael HORNET 14 February 2018 15: 40
          +1
          This is called "did not look." 6,5 mm was immediately the "most correct caliber", because it combines the maximum ballistic coefficient of a bullet with a small recoil
          But Fedorov failed to push this mass), plus a heavy legacy in the form of backwardness
          But after the war it was necessary, but alas, again, there wasn’t enough courage
          1. Droid
            Droid 16 February 2018 09: 11
            +1
            Quote: Michael HORNET
            for it combines the maximum ballistic coefficient of a bullet with low recoil

            At a distance of automatic fire, the ballistics practically does not differ from 5,45 and merges it according to the recoil momentum. That's all.
            1. Michael HORNET
              Michael HORNET 19 February 2018 17: 03
              +1
              6,5 runs confidently up to 900 m, and 5.45 potential ends at 400m
              1. Droid
                Droid 22 February 2018 22: 10
                0
                Which 900 m? What are you talking about? They do not shoot from machine guns at 900 m, for this there is another weapon in the compartment. For example, a 30-mm automatic gun or, at worst, a 14,5-mm machine gun.
    2. CooL_SnipeR
      CooL_SnipeR 13 February 2018 22: 19
      +2
      The direction should go to gunpowders with progressive combustion, which provide constant pressure along the entire length of the barrel ... this will significantly increase the initial energy of the bullet. But technically it’s hard to implement ... because rifle gunpowders are already one of the slowest burning ones and are usually cylindrical, which limits the shape and complexity of manufacture (if anyone does not know there are rifle guns, there are pistol guns that differ several times).

      The pressure in the barrel and its progressiveness depends only on 2 characteristics - the current burning area and speed = increase in the volume of burned gases. Well, and the speed of the bullet, which provides an increase in the projectile space. Actually, there are formulas ... he himself at the dawn of programming and numerical integration for the sake of fan counted.
      Well, I forgot - combustion temperatures ... nitroglycerin have a higher, and therefore give more pressure and thermal and corrosion damage to the barrel
    3. Droid
      Droid 14 February 2018 09: 11
      +1
      Quote: andrewkor
      "The potential of the cartridge model 1943 is far from exhausted"

      From it it is impossible to pull out what is not there - ballistics. No gunpowder.
      1. Michael HORNET
        Michael HORNET 14 February 2018 15: 42
        0
        The ballistics of even the existing 7,62x39 are not so bad. There are a lot of things that can be done with gunpowder, but the return will naturally increase, nevertheless it can be significantly improved - use 8,5 g of a bullet for example with BC = 0.37 approximately and disperse it to 770 m / s - an increase will be more than noticeable
        1. Droid
          Droid 16 February 2018 09: 13
          0
          Quote: Michael HORNET
          The ballistics of even the existing 7,62x39 are not so bad.

          Yeah, data preparation errors in 7,62x39 are 1,5-1,8 times more than in 5,45. Not if you were planning to shoot no further than 300 m ... but 5,45 is better there.
  2. Knizhnik
    Knizhnik 13 February 2018 09: 11
    +2
    A familiar situation: the cartridge seems to be not quite happy, but switching to another is expensive, and there is already a bunch of weapons under it. So they try to improve something with minimal intervention: for example, a bullet, because charge remains the same. In terms of production, it’s certainly easier
  3. Curious
    Curious 13 February 2018 13: 45
    +5
    Maybe it makes sense to immediately focus on weapons under 12,7 and 14,5 mm? Guaranteed defeat with one shot, moreover, getting into any part of the body is almost fatal. No body armor will help.
    Yes, and in the civilian market there are decent ammunition, for example this one.
    1. tchoni
      tchoni 13 February 2018 17: 47
      +1
      Oh yeah! At the same time, you can make a bunch of varieties of cartridge equipment: buckshot, PBS, grenade wassat
      1. alex-cn
        alex-cn 13 February 2018 20: 04
        +2
        And to drag the full ammunition to force the one who offered ... the initiative is punishable what
        1. Curious
          Curious 13 February 2018 21: 40
          +2
          So all exoskeletons will also have heavy drones. So there will be no problems.
    2. Raphael_83
      Raphael_83 14 February 2018 20: 10
      +1
      Quote: Curious
      Yes, and in the civilian market there are decent ammunition, for example this one.

      Wasn't that the time with such cartridges for Bert the Graboids in his basement shelter soaked in the "Tremors of the Earth" in 1990? laughing
      1. Curious
        Curious 14 February 2018 20: 34
        +3

        Holland & Holland double-barreled fitting with reverse locks on the boards. issued
        chambered for 7 mm H&H Mag, .275 H&H Mag, .300 H&H Mag,
        9.3x74R, .375 H&H Mag, .465 H&H Mag, .700 NE
        Price - from 70.000 pounds.
        About ten pieces were manufactured in the .700 NE caliber. They are made to order.
        1. Raphael_83
          Raphael_83 14 February 2018 20: 42
          +3
          ATP for enlightenment, google; above I joke like that.
          H&H is Holland & Holland which? How - have heard! good In any case, the fitting of precisely such monstrous calibers, kmk, is more of a collection and exhibition plus, very rarely practically used. For the wear of the materiel from factors such as pressure-temperature-longitudinal elastic deformations (during recoil), etc., should be completely hurricane (I’m not even talking about broken collarbones and broken shoulders). request hi
          1. Curious
            Curious 14 February 2018 21: 23
            +2
            Just .700 NE was ordered specifically for hunting by the famous California big game hunter W. Feldstein. Before that, the corresponding cartridge by Bell Basic Brass was developed for him. On the first hunt with three shots, Feldstein killed three elephants. Regarding wear - a hunting weapon of this sort is not done for hundreds of other shots. Such things have been done for decades. But the return - yes, serious. Feldstein requested an even larger caliber - but this is already beyond physiological possibilities.
            1. Curious
              Curious 14 February 2018 21: 33
              +2
              By the way, another company works in this caliber - HAMBRUSCH
              HUNTING WEAPONS GmbH
              1. alex-cn
                alex-cn 15 February 2018 19: 19
                +2
                The 600ne fittings were produced from the beginning of the 20th century to the 50s, not in large quantities, but constantly for African safaris. About her action on the elephant, read J. Hunter "The Hunter". Now it seems that the issue is finished, and the Dutch Museum has a beautifully designed “last nitro express”. I saw a photo ... I wouldn’t go hunting with it, it’s scary just to scratch it on the occasion ... It's more expensive than the Bentley ...
            2. Simargl
              Simargl 21 February 2018 21: 12
              +2
              Quote: Curious
              Regarding wear - a hunting weapon of this sort is not done for hundreds of other shots. Such things have been done for decades.
              There the return is such that 1000 shots in a lifetime can not be done ....
              1. Curious
                Curious 21 February 2018 21: 32
                +1
                You understand that they don’t hunt gophers with such a fitting. So it is often not necessary to shoot from it.
                1. Simargl
                  Simargl 22 February 2018 04: 40
                  +2
                  Of course! Yes, and physical form is needed: gophers can be shot at 90 and you can, and .700 and at 60 can be sent to the hospital.
                  ... gopher ...
                  ... from .700 and the wolf will simply burst.
                  1. Curious
                    Curious 22 February 2018 13: 35
                    +1
                    Yes there and hunting colleagues can burst. Nevertheless, the price, if my memory serves me, starts from $ 125.
                    1. Simargl
                      Simargl 22 February 2018 18: 53
                      +1
                      Quote: Curious
                      Yes there and hunting colleagues can burst. Yet the price ...
                      Usually, for colleagues, the price of the device is not much different. Moreover, there are not colored options without a pair of zeros.
  4. Operator
    Operator 13 February 2018 20: 11
    +2
    "... Israel Military Industries announced major achievements in the modernization of the NATO 5,56x45 cartridge. They have created a cartridge whose successful tests have shown that it exceeds the penetration ability of an 7,62 mm caliber bullet - such as" our wunderwaffe exceeded the capabilities of an 7,62x25 mm cartridge " laughing
  5. ADT
    ADT 13 February 2018 21: 27
    +4
    A bit strange news feed in the "Russian" media, incomplete, and even with the clowning - "superpool".
    In real life, the news sounds like this:
    The IWI APM cartridge is 5.56x45 mm NATO, i.e. compatible with any rifles and machine guns under this cartridge, including the M16 / M4 family. The total weight of the cartridge is 12.9 grams, the weight of the bullet is 73 grains (4.73 grams). Used bullets type FMJBT APHC (Full Metal Jacket Boat Tail, Armor Piercing Hard Core). For comparison, the weight of an ordinary FMJBT bullet to an M855 cartridge is 62 grains (4 grams).

    Advantages of APM are increased accuracy and armor penetration compared to other 5.56x45 rounds. According to a number of criteria, the APM is also superior to the 7.62-mm rounds used in sniper rifles and machine guns. Tests have shown that at a range of 550 m, the new cartridge has 30% better accuracy than the 7.62 mm M80, and the APM armor penetration is much higher than with conventional 5.56 mm cartridges. So, when shooting at a standard 3.4-mm NATO steel plate, 100% penetration was achieved at a range of up to 800 m.

    Thus, a unit operating in an area where direct fire contact is not expected at ranges above 800 m can abandon a 7.62 caliber weapon and use only 5.56 caliber, accordingly reducing the load on soldiers or increasing ammunition.

    Progress in the creation of APM was achieved through a new bullet design, such as the type of gunpowder used and the method of inserting the bullet inside the sleeve. A new type of capsule is also used.

    The new cartridge arrives on the market just when the US Marine Corps launched a study to replace the M855 cartridge (SS109) and a number of NATO armies are also looking for new ammunition.
    Nowhere is it said that in terms of armor penetration it exceeds 7.62 Most of the improvements in the area of ​​5.56.
    1. Curious
      Curious 13 February 2018 21: 41
      +1
      Did you just understand that?
    2. Svateev
      Svateev 14 February 2018 13: 33
      0
      Quote: ADT
      APM armor penetration is much higher than conventional 5.56-mm cartridges.

      Ordinary 5.56-mm - which ones? In the USA, the M855A1 cartridge has already become common, So do you compare your innovation with it or still with M855?
    3. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 14 February 2018 16: 29
      0
      As opponents correctly noticed, such an armor-piercing cartridge
      it will not be possible to use in bulk - it will grind faster
      weapons (barrel and bolt). Only for special occasions.
      Or you need to design a “reinforced” weapon for it.
      And, apparently, a tungsten cap in a pool is an expensive thing.
      This is a cartridge for mid-range snipers: 400-700 m
  6. Operator
    Operator 13 February 2018 22: 19
    +6
    Quote: ADT
    Cartridge APM ... The total weight of the cartridge is 12.9 grams, the weight of the bullet is 73 grains (4.73 grams). Used bullets type FMJBT APHC (Full Metal Jacket Boat Tail, Armor Piercing Hard Core). For comparison, the weight of an ordinary FMJBT bullet to an M855 cartridge is 62 gran (4 grams) ... when firing at a standard NATO 3.4 mm steel plate, 100% penetration was achieved at a range of up to 800 m

    The IWI manufacturing company is lying and does not blush - if you use a bullet in the 5,56x45 mm cartridge, the mass of which will be 0,73 grams more than the standard M855 cartridge bullet (with the same amount of gunpowder - judging by the cartridge weight), the initial speed of the new bullet will drop and armor penetration does not grow.

    And if the new gunpowder with the same weight as the old one has more energy, then the regular rifle barrels under 5,56x45 mm will simply burst when fired.

    In addition, the US Army has long switched to the lead-free M855A1 bullet of increased armor penetration, with which the Israeli prodigy would have to be compared in any situation.
  7. Arkan
    Arkan 14 February 2018 00: 03
    +1
    Quote: Operator
    Quote: ADT
    Cartridge APM ... The total weight of the cartridge is 12.9 grams, the weight of the bullet is 73 grains (4.73 grams). Used bullets type FMJBT APHC (Full Metal Jacket Boat Tail, Armor Piercing Hard Core). For comparison, the weight of an ordinary FMJBT bullet to an M855 cartridge is 62 gran (4 grams) ... when firing at a standard NATO 3.4 mm steel plate, 100% penetration was achieved at a range of up to 800 m

    The IWI manufacturing company is lying and does not blush - if you use a bullet in the 5,56x45 mm cartridge, the mass of which will be 0,73 grams more than the standard M855 cartridge bullet (with the same amount of gunpowder - judging by the cartridge weight), the initial speed of the new bullet will drop and armor penetration does not grow.

    And if the new gunpowder with the same weight as the old one has more energy, then the regular rifle barrels under 5,56x45 mm will simply burst when fired.

    In addition, the US Army has long switched to the lead-free M855A1 bullet of increased armor penetration, with which the Israeli prodigy would have to be compared in any situation.

    It’s not necessary to compare it there, the M855A1 is the same advertised crap as the whole AR.M-4 platform kills this cartridge in the trash - the barrel’s life decreases to 3000, the combat stops of the barrels break down, problems with the gas outlet, etc., while the actual effective range and armor penetration were not so outstanding. US Marines were only recently forced to adopt this cartridge (they looped for nine years as they could), but they immediately began to change the M-4 to NK. And their special forces and rangers decided to arm themselves with SCAR which conceptually is the same AK, probably from the AR platform they no longer expect anything good with any cartridges.
    1. Svateev
      Svateev 14 February 2018 13: 41
      +1
      Quote: Arkan
      M855A1 - the same advertised crap

      Maybe. And the "wise Israeli designers" were able to circumvent the laws of physics and their new cartridge - not crap? I would like to explain this paradox belay
      1. Michael HORNET
        Michael HORNET 14 February 2018 15: 50
        0
        Nobody went around anything. Designers follow the understandable and natural bullet of the maximum possible increase in the ballistic coefficient of the bullet, while ensuring the presence of a high hard core. Plus a powder charge to the maximum, at the limit of permissible. But such growth comes up against the rejection of cheap lead and the core material comes out expensive. And the survivability of weapons, not originally calculated for + P = hence the broken emphasis. The AR platform, in its current form of safety margin, has no
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 14 February 2018 16: 15
          0
          The infantryman rarely needs such armor penetration.
          And such cartridges will be expensive. I see the application as follows:
          one of 8 stores will be equipped with a color marker (to
          distinguish, including in the dark). In it - armor-piercing.
          And the remaining 7 stores are ordinary.
          When you need to or shoot far at a protected enemy,
          or punch steel close - use these cartridges.
          In other cases, they are ordinary.
          1. Arkan
            Arkan 14 February 2018 19: 49
            +1
            No, it’s impossible to deceive fate. First of all, in Afghanistan and Iraq, the M-4 with the M855 cartridge does not have enough effective range or armor penetration, simply because the M-4 was originally developed for artillerymen, armored crews, etc. In fact, this rifle was supposed to occupy the niche that the AKSU occupies in the Russian army, but someone in the United States Defense Department decided that it would be more convenient for motorized rifles with a rifle to snap faster in armored vehicles. Well, in Iraq and Afghanistan, long-distance combat showed that this decision was a mistake, and after that, dances with a tambourine began (the development of new cartridges and longer barrels) .That is, the initial problem in the castration of the M-16 which was already inferior to the AK in armor penetration. And secondly, all the cartridges for the AK have a similar trajectory, and firing different types of ammunition does not cause special problems. But the M855 and M855A1 are cartridges with completely different ballistic characteristics, therefore replacing the cartridges will have to bring weapons under the new ammunition. Mechanical, optical, collimator sights, ballistic calculators - all this will come adapt to the new ammunition as soon as you change the store. For these reasons, the U.S. Army and Marine Corps switched to a single cartridge, but units to which immediate air support is not guaranteed (special forces, rangers) just abandoned ARok in favor of a more reliable weapon with a powerful cartridge.
        2. Arkan
          Arkan 14 February 2018 20: 03
          0
          H.Z. What is fighting there in Israel, but the M885A1 just doesn’t have any core. In its present form, it is a piece of copper with a steel nose. Copper is lighter than lead and the developers made the bullet longer so as not to lose weight, and the longer bullet had to be sunk deeper into the sleeve for due to the volume of gunpowder, and this necessitated another, more powerful gunpowder ... and so on. As a result, even in Israel they began to sculpt the AK Alpha, and this is probably a more reasonable solution than the eternal haemorrhoids with the AR-15 platform.
          1. Michael HORNET
            Michael HORNET 19 February 2018 18: 13
            0
            Well, AK Alpha is still a purely civilian model, in the army then Tavor
            But the opposite was more correct)
      2. Arkan
        Arkan 14 February 2018 16: 23
        +2
        If 7n22 was not finally invented in Israel, then the essence of this paradox is probably the amount of kickback for army officials who decide what the soldiers will be armed with.
  8. Letnab
    Letnab 17 February 2018 05: 16
    +1
    I read it with interest. It's nice that there are no mutual reproaches and insults in the discussion ... Just a discussion of the topic.