January 27 Fight 1904 d at Port Arthur: The Battle Of Opportunities

107
The 27 battle of January 1904 g is of interest not only as the first battle of armored squadrons in the Russian-Japanese war, but also as the only collision of the main forces of the opponents, in which the Russians did not suffer defeat.

On the evening of January 26, 1904, Heihachiro Togo, commander of the Japanese United fleet, withdrew its main forces to about. Round, located 45 miles from Port Arthur. At 17.05, he told the destroyers, "According to a predetermined plan, go on the attack. I wish you complete success. ” On the night of January 27, 1904, Japanese destroyers attacked the ships of the Russian Pacific Squadron, which were on the outer roads of Port Arthur: this night strike, if not to defeat, then greatly weaken the Russians, then the next morning the main forces of the Japanese fleet could with one blow to destroy the remains of the Russian squadron. Therefore, in the morning of January 27, Togo led to Port Arthur a powerful squadron of 6 armadillos, 5 armored and 4 armored cruisers, including:

The 1 th combat detachment - the battleships of Mikasa (the flag of Vice-Admiral of Togo), Asahi, Fuji, Yashima, Sikishima, Hatsuse;

The 2 combat detachment - armored cruisers Izumo (flag of Rear Admiral Kamimura), Azuma, Yakumo, Tokiva, Ivate;

The 3 combat detachment is the Chitose armored cruisers (flag of Rear Admiral Virgo), Takasago, Kasagi, and Iosino.

Pacific squadron significantly inferior to the Japanese forces. Since the squadron battleships Tsarevich and Retvizan, as well as the Pallas armored cruiser, were damaged by torpedoes, at the disposal of the viceroy E.I. Alekseeva and Vice-Admiral O.V. Stark remained only 5 squadron battleships (Petropavlovsk, Sevastopol, Poltava, Pobeda and Peresvet), the armored cruiser Bayan and 4 armored cruisers (Askold, Diana, Boyarin, "Novik").

The situation was also worsened by the fact that Victory and Peresvet, in their firepower, occupied an intermediate position between the Japanese battleships and armored cruisers. The remaining three Russian battleships could not be considered modern ships, each of them in its fighting qualities roughly corresponded to the oldest and weakest Japanese battleships of the 1 combat squad, Fuji and Yashima, but inferior to the other four. The only advantages of the Russians were the opportunity to fight with the support of the coastal batteries of the fortress of Port Arthur and the presence of quite numerous destroyers.

In 07.00, the 3-th combat squad, which had previously followed along with the main forces of the Japanese, increased speed and moved to Port Arthur for reconnaissance. Rear Admiral Deva was supposed to assess the damage caused by the night mine attack, in the same case, if the large Russian forces attempted to intercept the high-speed Japanese cruisers, the latter would retreat and lure the enemy south of Encounter Rock.

At 07.05, Vice-Admiral Oskar Stark, who was holding his flag on the battleship Petropavlovsk, raised the signal: “The squadron of the Pacific Ocean will load guns with high-explosive shells. "Pallad" signal is canceled. " On the ships, standing on the outer raid under the stenkovye flags, they struck alarm.

In 08.00, the Deva cruisers noticed on Russian ships. “Askold” raised the signal “I can see the enemy on S”, similarly they reported to “Bayan” and “Pallas”, and with “Novik” they asked Petropavlovsk for permission to attack the enemy. According to the testimony of the officer "Askold", the "Petropavlovsk" raised the signal "to the cruisers to attack the enemy", but there are no marks about such a signal in the watch logbooks.

Anyway, “Askold” and “Bayan” went to the Japanese, but the admiral ordered them to return to 08.15, and instead sent the 1 squad of destroyers to attack, but almost immediately called him off, because he decided to go the whole squadron.

In 08.25, at Petropavlovsk, they raised the signal “Breaking off anchor all of a sudden.” From the Golden Mountain, a semaphore would be received, first: “The governor asks the squadron chief in 9 hours,” and almost immediately: “Where is the squadron going?”. In response, O.V. Stark reported on Japanese cruisers to 4, to which 08.35 received the answer: “The governor represents the Squadron Chief to act discretion, bear in mind that somewhere near a stronger Japanese squadron”

In 08.38, the column of Russian cruisers, having the leading “Bayan”, followed Deva's cruisers after them, followed by a column of Russian battleships. But in 09.10, contact with the Japanese was lost and the Russians turned back. Then Deva led the 3-I combat unit to join the main forces and gave a radiogram of the following content: "Most of the enemy is on the outer roadstead. We approached 7000 meters, but didn’t open fire on them. Apparently, several ships suffered from our min. I think it's profitable to attack them "

In 09.20, “Petropavlovsk” raised the signal “The battleships to anchor consistently in order of the wake”, but then changed his order, ordering “Peresvet” and “Victory” to rise to S-off, moreover, the Russian battleships formed a wedge with the flagship battleship its top. “Russian-Japanese War 1904-1905 Book I ”indicates that“ Petropavlovsk anchored in 10.45, but the description of events makes one suspect a banal typo - it probably happened in 09.45.

In 09.58, it was transferred from “Golden Mountain” to “Petropavlovsk”: “The governor asks whether the squadron leader has the opportunity to be with him and at what time”, to which the answer was: “The squadron leader will be in 11 hours”.

In 09.59, Boyarin received instructions from Admiral "To go reconnaissance from Laoeshana on O to 15mil." The cruiser immediately went to sea, immediately after this O.V. Stark ordered the boat to the ladder. The exact time of departure of the vice-admiral is unknown, but it obviously happened at the eleventh hour.

Desire of the governor E.I. Alekseeva to arrange a meeting at such a time, especially given the fact that he had previously warned O.V. Stark about the presence of a powerful Japanese squad nearby, has no excuse. Of course, E.I. Alekseev could not know anything for certain, because the main forces of X. Togo had not yet been discovered. His warning was only a guess. But the road from Petropavlovsk to the governor’s house took at least an hour, and it was obvious that in the event of the appearance of battleships Kh. Togo, the head of the Russian squadron might not have time to return to his flagship. If this meeting was so important for the governor, it would be wiser to hold it on board the Petropavlovsk. But, apparently, the idea of ​​having to go to a meeting with a subordinate himself, E.I. Alekseev and could not come to mind. Such actions of the governor subjected the squadron of the Pacific to extreme danger.

At that time, Rear Admiral Deva's 3 th combat detachment joined the main forces of H. Togo, the Japanese squadron was no more than 20 miles from Port Arthur. The Japanese have built up a wake column - 1-th, 2-th and 3-th combat units consistently. Immediately after the rebuild, Mikas raised the signal "I will attack the main forces of the enemy now," and soon after that the Japanese found the cruiser Boyarin (they themselves believed they saw Diana).


The cruiser "Boyar" (in Denmark)


The latter, of course, immediately turned back and went to Port Arthur, making an 3 shot from the stern 120-mm cannon. Just before the start of the battle, X. Togo ordered to raise the flag flags and raised a signal: “In this battle lies a decisive victory or defeat; let everyone try their best. ”

But even before the Japanese battleships approached the distance of the shot, they raised a signal on "Boyarin": "I see an enemy in great forces." The same thing was reported on "Petropavlovsk" from the battery number XXUMX.

All this put the Russians in an extremely unpleasant position. According to the statute, in the absence of the admiral, his squadron commanded the squadron, in this case, the captain of the rank 1 A. Ebergard. But the problem was that this provision of the charter extended only to the service of peacetime, while in battle the flag-captain was forbidden to operate a squadron. The command in the battle was to take the junior flagship, but ... only in the case of the death of the squadron commander! Here are just O.V. Stark was alive, and therefore the junior flagship of the Pacific Squadron, P.P. Ukhtomsky had no reason to take command over ... The squadron was decapitated, but it is unlikely that the drafters of the charter could be blamed: a situation in which the commander was unharmed, but absent from the leading squadron, obviously could not have occurred to anyone.

To the credit of captain 1 rank A.A. Abergard, if he hesitated, then not for long. He had a choice - to comply with the charter, risking defeat of the main forces of the squadron, or, with a wave of his hand at the law, to take over the command.

In 10.50, “Petropavlovsk” gives a signal: “To the cruisers of the 1 rank go to reinforcements of“ Boyarin ”, and to“ Novik ”they reported a semaphore:“ To go to reinforcements to “Boyarin”, not to leave the fortress area of ​​operations ”

Then, between 10.50 and 10.55 - "Armadillos suddenly anchor everyone suddenly"

In 10.55 - "Angara" to anchor "

In the 11.00 "destroyers off the anchor." At this point, all the 15 Japanese ships were already clearly visible.

In 11.05, "Armadillos build up to the wake along the" Sevastopol ", not observing the order of numbers."

At this, alas, the period of command of the energetic captain of the 1 rank came to an end. Of course, neither is OV Stark nor ei Alekseev could not let the squadron into battle under the command of A.A. Eberhard No explanation for such an incident could be taken into account, and the most disappointing conclusions would be made for both commanders. Therefore, in 11.05, on the "Petropavlovsk" they took the semaphore: "Expect the squadron commander: do not take off the anchor." Accordingly, in 11.10, “Petropavlovsk” gave a new signal: “The battleships have been removed from the anchor all of a sudden”, and after another 2 minutes: “Stay in place.”

The exact time of the start of the battle, alas, is unknown. According to Japanese sources, Mikasa, having approached the Russian squadron on 8500, turned on W, opened fire from the nasal 12-dm turret, while the first shot was made exactly in 11 hours (11.55 Japanese time). At the same time, Russian sources indicate the beginning of the battle the most different times in the interval from 11.07 (the magazine on the Golden Mount) to 11.20 (the magazine "Askold"). Be that as it may, it can be stated with all certainty only one thing - the beginning of the battle was found by the Russian armadillos anchored.

What next? It must be said that the Russian and Japanese descriptions of the 27 January battle of 1904 in Port Arthur are very different. According to the “Description of hostilities at sea 37-38. Meiji "wake column of the Japanese went from O to W, along the Russian squadron and leading the battle in the starboard. Approaching Lyaoteshany, "Mikasa" turned on 8 points to the left consistently, since the distance to the Russian battleships was already too great for shooting. At this moment (11.25), the Russian coastal artillery entered the battle. As for the Japanese Japanese 2 combat detachment, he lay down on the combat course (that is, he passed the turning point on the W Mikasa) only at 11.12 and fought until 11.31, then turned successively to X battleships departing from Port Arthur. Togo. For the 3 battle squad, the battle began in 11.20, but 11.42 H. Togo ordered the Deva cruisers to turn "all of a sudden" to the left - the Japanese commander noticed that they had fallen under the concentrated fire of the Russian squadron, which the armored cruisers could not withstand. However, the cruisers of the 3 battle squad still fired for a while (3-7 minutes), so the battle for them stopped in 11.45-11.50. In 11.50, the flag flags were lowered on Japanese ships, and the battle was over. At the same time, according to the Japanese, the Russian battleships did not dismantle the anchors - but still the ships of X. Togo retreated, without resuming the battle.

Russian description is significantly different from the Japanese.



By the time the battle began (11.00-11.07), the Russian battleships remained at anchor, but, being fixed, answered the Japanese with fire, and the cruisers were between the squadrons, moving toward the battleships X. Togo. It is not known exactly how much OV returned. Stark on "Petropavlovsk". According to the flagship magazine, the boat of the Russian commander appeared in 11.14 and approached Petropavlovsk "among the enemy shells falling on the roads” and the admiral boarded 11.20, but the commander of Petropavlovsk claimed that he had left the anchor at the direction of the admiral in 11.08. In any case, “Petropavlovsk” was the first to leave the anchor, and went to the enemy, raising the “Follow me” signal.

Following this, O.V. Stark ordered to give another signal: "Do not interfere with shooting, follow me." It can be assumed that this order was related to the cruisers, and they were seen and executed on the “Askold” - the armored cruiser quickly passed along the column of Russian battleships, and then turned them into the wake. But "Bayan" and "Novik", gone further than "Askold", either did not see the signal or ignored it. The first minutes of the battle Russian battleships were perpendicular to the Japanese course and could fire only from nose guns, but somewhere between 11.23 and 11.30 they turned rhombuses to the left and laid down the Japanese on a countercourse, diverging from them with their right sides. At this time, the distance between opponents was reduced to 8 KB or less.

At 11.30, Port Arthur's coastal batteries opened fire. In addition to them, Russian ships undermined by mines participated in the battle, although the latter could not fire for very long and only a few 6 ”shells were fired. "Diana" and "Boyar" during the battle held on to the battleships, but then entered the wake of "Askold"

In 11.40, the Russian commander sent the destroyers on the attack, but after some 5 minutes, canceled the attack.

In 11.45, the Japanese fire weakened and their ships turned into the sea, a signal was raised at the Petropavlovsk: "The admiral expresses his pleasure"

The 11.50 OV Stark turned on the W and ordered a cease fire.

Separate descriptions deserve the actions of "Novik" and "Bayan". Both of these cruisers met the Japanese fleet, but neither of them wanted to retreat, as did the Askold, after the signal of the flagship “Do not stop to shoot.” Novik, having developed the 22 node, got close to Mikasa on 17 KBT, and then turned back. Breaking the distance to 25-27 kb, turned again and went to the Japanese, getting close to them to 15 kb, then intending to retreat again, but at the moment of turning the cruiser received an underwater hole that made steering difficult, which caused Novik to retreat. The Japanese believed that the Novik launched a mine and nearly torpedoed the Iwate armored cruiser, but in fact it was not.

"Bayan" opened fire on "Mikas" with 29 KBT, but seeing the signal "Do not interfere", simply lay down on a course parallel to the Japanese. The brave cruiser went to W, while the Russian battleships turned in the opposite direction, and continued to fire at Mikas until it turned left. Then "Bayan" moved the fire to the next battleship, then the next, and so on. Finally, seeing the order “Construct in the wake column”, “Bayan” followed the Russian battleships.

It may seem that in such “recklessness” there was no point, but this is not so - cruisers distracted the attention of heavy Japanese ships, creating a certain nervousness, thereby easing the position of the few battleships of the Pacific Squadron. For example, it is known that as many as two Japanese battleships fired at Bayan.

In the 27 battle of January 1904, the Japanese showed better shooting than the Russians. The battle took place at 46-26 kbt distances, the statistics of the flow of shells and hits are given below.



The percentage of hits among the Japanese as a whole is twice as high as that of the Russians (2,19% versus 1,08%), but if you look at the table, everything becomes not so clear. For example, the percentage of hits of Japanese 12 "guns is 10,12%, while among Russians it cannot be lower than 7,31% (if 3 12" shells hit Japanese ships). And if we assume that out of two hits with projectiles of unexplained caliber (10 "-12"), one or two could be 12 ", then it turns out that the accuracy of Russian 12" could be 9,75% or 12,19%. The same is true for 6 ”-8” shells - unfortunately, the presence of 9 hits of an unknown caliber (either 6 ”or 8”) does not allow analyzing their accuracy separately, but the total percentage of artillery hits of these calibers made by Russians 1,19 %, the Japanese - 1,93, which makes the difference in 1,62 times (still not double). The extremely low shooting accuracy of the Russian 3 ”had an effect on the general results of the shooting, but these weapons were completely useless in a squadron battle.

Of all the coastal battery guns that took part in the battle, only 5 10 "modern guns and 10 6" Kanet cannons mounted on batteries #2,9 and 15 might have been able to send their shells to the Japanese. But it is highly doubtful that they could even achieve one hit. The fact is that the shooting from these guns was conducted at very large distances for the Russian gunners, and the consumption of shells was extremely low - it’s hardly possible to count on hits in such conditions. According to the author of this article, all hits in Japanese ships reached the ship artillery of the Pacific Ocean Squadron.

The worst quality of firing of Russian commanders has the following reasons:

1) The artillery exercises of 1903 were not carried out in full.

2) Shortly before the outbreak of war, there were more than 1500 senior personnel, including about 500 specialists, including squadron commandants, in reserve. So, on the Varyag cruiser, almost half of the commandants went into the reserve.

3) From November 1, 1903, the ships of the Pacific Squadron stood in an armed reserve and did not conduct combat training. Accordingly, it was not possible to train the newly arrived gunners in artillery and, of course, maintain the level of training achieved in the fall of 1903. The ships were withdrawn from the reserve only on January 19, 1904, and a few days before the start of the war there was no way to seriously train the crews.

4) The beginning of the battle caught the Russian battleships at anchor and the stationary ships were a much better target than the moving battleships of H. Togo.

5) During the battle on January 27, 1904, the Japanese wake line was located between the Russian ships and the sun, i.e. the sun's rays blinded the Russians.

In general, it can be argued that the Russian description of the battle is much closer to the truth than the Japanese - at least two important points of Japanese historiography: that the Russian squadron held the whole battle at anchor, and that almost all of the Japanese were hit by the coastal artillery of the Russians - were erroneous.

As a result of the battle, we can state the following:

1) The commander of the 3rd combat detachment, Rear Admiral Deva, acted in a very unprofessional manner. He could neither understand the state of the Russian squadron, nor carry it into the sea so that the main forces of Kh. Togo could break it without entering the zone of operation of the Russian coastal batteries.

2) H. Togo did not organize the fire control of his ships. According to the official description of the battle: “Asahi concentrated fire on br. "Peresvet", "Fuji" and "Yashima" fired at the "Bayan", "Sikishima" fired at the very middle of the crowded enemy ships, and the rear ship "Hatsuse" fired at the ship closest to it "

3) The extremely stretched wake column of the Japanese endangered the 3rd combat detachment, since it was at the time of its passage that the Russians (at least in theory) could achieve maximum fire efficiency.

4) H. Togo's decision to withdraw from the fight has no reasonable explanation.

5) Actions of the governor E.I. Alekseev, who called the head of the Russian squadron to himself, could lead to a heavy defeat of the Russian naval forces.

6) The actions of Vice Admiral O.V. Starks were mostly correct (such as sending the Boyarin cruiser to reconnaissance exactly where the Japanese fleet came from), but pretty hectic, since the admiral constantly canceled his own orders. Nevertheless, the main decision of the battle - the formation of a wake column and the difference with the Japanese on the counter-course - should be considered correct.

7) The reluctance of O.V. Stark to pursue the retreating enemy and continue the battle after 11.50 is understandable: it is difficult to fight with 6 armored ships (including Bayan) against 11 enemy armored ships, especially outside the coastal artillery fire zone. However, the refusal to attempt to attack the "tail" of the Japanese column should be regarded as a mistake by the Russian commander.

In general, the battle 27 January 1904 g can be regarded as a battle of missed opportunities. H. Togo failed to take the chance to defeat the weakened Russian squadron. At the same time, O.V. Stark failed to take advantage of the benefits he had. As subsequently wrote S.I. Lutonin, who fought in that battle as a senior officer of the battleship "Poltava":
“The Japanese came to the first battle without destroyers, and now we could successfully use the often practiced maneuver in the squadron of Admiral Skrydlov, when the destroyers, attacking the opposite sides of their battleships, suddenly jumped out into the gaps and went to attack. Four minutes later, they were on the right mine shot from the enemy, and during the battle, when all attention was paid to a large enemy and small weapons were not servants, all chances were that the attack would succeed. "

As a result of the battle that took place, the Japanese fleet, possessing a significant advantage in strength, failed to neutralize the main forces of the Pacific Squadron and was forced to retreat.

List of used literature:
1. V. Maltsev, “On the Question of Accuracy of Shooting in the Russian-Japanese War” Part I
2. V. Polomoshnov “Fight 28 July 1904 (the battle in the Yellow Sea (the battle at Cape Shantung))”
3. V.N. Cherkasov “Notes of the artillery officer of the battleship Peresvet”
4. V.Yu. Gribovsky. Russian Pacific Fleet. 1898-1905. History creation and death.
5. THEM. Koktsinsky "Sea battles and battles of the Russian-Japanese war, or the cause of defeat: a crisis of management"
6. Description of military operations at sea in 37-38 Meiji / Maritime General Headquarters in Tokyo.
7. Testimony in the investigation commission for the July 28 fight of the senior artillery officer Lt. V. Cherkasov 1
8. Report of the Chief of Pacific Ocean Squadron V.-A. Stark Deputy E.I.V. January 29 # 523
9. Russian-Japanese War 1904-1905 Book I. Fleet actions in the southern theater from the beginning of the war to a break in communications with Port Arthur
10. S.I. Lutonin "Activities of the battleship" Poltava "in the Russo-Japanese War 1904 of the Year."

The article used the January 27 battle scheme from the monograph of P.D. Bykova “Russian-Japanese War 1904 – 1905 Actions at sea "


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107 comments
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  1. Cat
    +7
    15 February 2018 05: 43
    Dear Andrey, thank you so much for the essay, from not a small cat !!!
    I rarely write comments without reading an article, but today is exactly the case. Damn all day I will "drool" in anticipation of the evening, a sofa, a cup of tea and a thoughtful reading of your work!
    Sincerely, Your neighbor in the Urals is Kotische!
    1. +6
      15 February 2018 09: 01
      Quote: Kotischa
      Dear Andrey, thank you so much for the essay, from not a small cat !!!

      You are always welcome, dear Kitty!
      1. -2
        22 December 2018 13: 21
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The 27 battle of January 1904 g is of interest not only as the first battle of armored squadrons in the Russian-Japanese war, but also as the only collision of the main forces of the opponents, in which the Russians did not suffer defeat.

        27.01.1904/XNUMX/XNUMX was a battle?
        A little hassle happened. No more.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        2) Shortly before the outbreak of war, there were more than 1500 senior personnel, including about 500 specialists, including squadron commandants, in reserve.

        This phrase says that you never served in the army and do not know how everything is arranged there.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        At the same time, O.V. Stark was unable to take advantage of the advantages that he had.

        What are the benefits?
        The Japanese a little later even without Yasima and Hatsuse crushed 1TE without much effort. And on January 27.01.1904, XNUMX, they still had these EDBs.
        Correctly, Stark did that he did not become involved in a linear battle with the Japanese. For this, he had almost no EDB.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        As subsequently wrote S.I. Lutonin, who fought in that battle as a senior officer of the battleship "Poltava"

        Build your versions on the sayings of a little-known captain of rank 2. What for?
  2. +10
    15 February 2018 06: 10
    Dear Andrew,
    The topic is excellent, I read the analysis with pleasure. In addition, let me suggest a scheme from the "Top Secret History of the Russo-Japanese War at Sea" made by an officer of the armored cruiser Tokiwa on the eve of the battle near Port Arthur. It shows the mutual arrangement of Russian ships, which, alas, did not come across to me in domestic sources, but it’s interesting.

    Unfortunately, the picture has decreased in size.
    1. +7
      15 February 2018 06: 38
      Quote: Comrade
      Unfortunately, the picture has decreased in size.

      She is clickable Yes
      You, Vyacheslav, manage to find absolutely stunning materials of the Japanese side of that time, which perfectly complements the materials of Andrey good hi
      1. +3
        16 February 2018 03: 54
        Quote: Rurikovich
        To you, Vyacheslav

        Andrey, my name is Valentine wink

        Quote: Rurikovich
        manages to find completely stunning materials of the Japanese side of that time, which perfectly complements the materials of Andrey

        Here you can only sigh with sorrow that our people did not digitize or put on the Internet documents and materials of the Russian-Japanese war at sea, as our former opponents did.
        This discussed battle near Port Arthur, for example. The Japanese not only laid out the general scheme, they also laid out the combat courses of each ship individually, about how.
        1. +2
          16 February 2018 08: 39
          I think this is not surprising, for them this war is really a great victory over the mighty northern neighbor, but in fact it is the only war against the superpower that Japan waged face to face and defeated ... and won very convincingly.
          you can say as much as you like that "here’s a little more, a little bit," but the facts show that we did not win a single significant victory in that war. And it doesn’t matter what kind of troops we had there - a guard or an invalid team, fact - we fought a war and lost. And Japan won and they have something to remember and whom to honor ((((
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. +3
              18 February 2018 23: 45
              The USSR was also a superpower only in the agitation of district committee propagandists.

              And what do you think is a "superpower"? Is it when jeans and chewing gum at every turn, or when the legalization of same-sex marriage?
              1. -1
                19 February 2018 00: 10
                Quote: Comrade
                Is it when jeans and chewing gum at every turn, or when the legalization of same-sex marriage?

                No, apparently this is when a person is deprived of all types of property, except personal property, turning him thereby into a slave. In the truest sense of the word, no property other than personal possessed only slaves. These are the basics of political economy.
                1. +3
                  19 February 2018 04: 18
                  this is when a person is deprived of all types of property, except personal, thereby turning him into a slave.

                  I live in Montreal, according to the data from the site of the city hall, about sixty percent of citizens do not have their own housing, many of them do not have cars. All their own, they literally wear with myself. In terms of, carry when moving from one removable hut to another.
                  Quote: wersa
                  In the truest sense of the word, no property other than personal possessed only slaves.

                  Well, that means the vast majority of the inhabitants of Canada, and along with the United States and other Great Britain and Germany, are slaves.
                  Eh, there are no "superpowers" left in the world.
                  1. -1
                    19 February 2018 08: 53
                    Quote: Comrade
                    about sixty percent of citizens do not have their own housing, very many of them do not have cars. They literally carry all of their own with them. I mean, they carry it when moving from one removable hut to another.

                    It does not matter. They have the opportunity to have it. Although they do not use it.
                    In the USSR, the population did not have such an opportunity. Therefore, it is fundamentally different.
                    Quote: Comrade
                    Well, that means the vast majority of the inhabitants of Canada, and along with the United States and other Great Britain and Germany, are slaves.

                    See above.
                    1. 0
                      22 December 2018 12: 37
                      Quote: wersa
                      In the USSR, the population did not have such an opportunity

                      wasn’t what? What does besides personal property mean? Well, did the population have to own factories and hairdressers? In America, do they all own factories?
                      1. 0
                        22 December 2018 13: 33
                        Quote: Pilat2009
                        then, did the population have to own factories and hairdressers? In America, does everyone own factories?

                        Study the question of what is a stock (security).
                        Study the question of what private property is and how it differs from personal property.
                        Examine the issue in which OEF private property exists, and in which only personal property.
                    2. 0
                      22 December 2018 13: 32
                      Quote: wersa
                      They have the opportunity to have it. Although they do not use it.
                      In the USSR, the population did not have such an opportunity. Therefore, it is fundamentally different.

                      Bravo!
                      Briefly and to the point.
                  2. 0
                    22 December 2018 13: 31
                    Quote: Comrade
                    I live in Montreal, according to the data from the website of the city hall, about sixty percent of citizens do not have their own housing,

                    Since when has this become a disadvantage? 60% of Montreal residents are mobile.
                    Quote: Comrade
                    They literally carry all of their own with them. I mean, they carry it when moving from one removable hut to another.

                    Do not exaggerate.
                    And if everything is so bad, if it’s absolutely unbearable, then move to Sev. Korea. Something similar to the USSR is happening there right now.
                    Quote: Comrade
                    Well, that means the vast majority of the inhabitants of Canada, and along with the United States and other Great Britain and Germany, are slaves.

                    Are you telling these tales to whom? Lohastiki, lovers of such horror movies, they have already died out of hunger for a long time. Or get ready for it. This is called natural selection.
                    Quote: Comrade
                    Eh, there are no "superpowers" left in the world.

                    Why? There is one more.
              2. 0
                15 July 2018 18: 38
                And what do you think is a "superpower"? Is it when jeans and chewing gum at every turn, or when the legalization of same-sex marriage?

                There is a fairly developed concept, according to which the USSR was ... a colony .... SK.

                You can argue, you can not argue. But the very fact of such thoughts says that something is wrong in the conservatory. Not?
          2. 0
            15 July 2018 18: 34
            that Japan led one on one and won ... and won very convincingly.


            And not “one on one”, and not “won”.
            But there were even more reasons to convince their own people of victory and “valor” --- they still convince.
        2. +1
          18 February 2018 16: 56
          Quote: Comrade
          my name is Valentine

          Right! I apologize hi I hadn’t been there for half a year, therefore I forgot it, but I remember that the name began with “B” smile
    2. +6
      15 February 2018 09: 00
      Thank you, dear colleague!
  3. +6
    15 February 2018 06: 54
    Greetings colleague hi
    If you take Russian, then yes, management raises many questions. At least the inefficient use of the same destroyers Yes
    Further. Boyar was engaged in what it was created for - close reconnaissance at the squadron. Because, I remember your remark about Novik as a shell for vehicles wink If only a little decisiveness to the leadership, then the same “Novik” with “Boyarin” would have justified their assignment by 100%, leading the destroyers to the attack. Yes
    H. Togo was apparently disappointed that the result of the night attack was less than the one he was counting on. So here it is rather a question of psychology. If you are already fighting on favorable terms (choosing the time and place of the battle) then you should have been more decisive. Although, perhaps, he also kept in mind the coastal batteries with destroyers ...
    We draw conclusions - I completely agree with you in the assessment of the battle. One boxer pricked an awl in the ass of another while he was proud, then waved his fists once, hitting each other in the nose and peacefully dispersed to lick his wounds ... laughing
    Bravo, Andrey Nikolaevich! good Chic plus for your favorite topic drinks hi
    1. +7
      15 February 2018 08: 59
      Quote: Rurikovich
      If you take Russian, then yes, management raises many questions. At least the inefficient use of the same destroyers

      Skrydlov was not on them ....
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Further. Boyar was engaged in what it was created for - close reconnaissance at the squadron. Because, I remember your remark about Novik as a shell for vehicles

      Nuuu, the cruisers are very different, and indeed I don’t see how the service at the squadron changes the shell at the machines drinks
      Quote: Rurikovich
      One boxer pricked an awl in the ass of another while he was proud

      Something like that, yes :))))
      1. +1
        15 February 2018 12: 51
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: Rurikovich
        One boxer pricked an awl in the ass of another while he was proud
        Something like that, yes :))))

        Damage to two armadillos and an armored cruiser - "pricked with an awl"? I would call it a good hook on the left. smile
        1. +3
          15 February 2018 15: 03
          Quote: Luga
          Damage to two armadillos and an armored cruiser - "pricked with an awl"?

          This is not a consequence of the January 27 battle
          1. +1
            15 February 2018 20: 20
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            This is not a consequence of the January 27 battle

            Misunderstood, then. I decided that I mean the attack of the destroyers the day before. sad It happens.
      2. +2
        15 February 2018 18: 20
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Nuuu, the cruisers are very different, and indeed I don’t see how the service at the squadron changes the shell at the machines

        Well, they were built according to the same technical task of the same program. The difference between them was actually only that the Novik had great speed due to the weakening of the hull. Which, however, did not stop him from fighting. request So their responsibilities were similar Yes
        1. +1
          18 February 2018 16: 35
          Quote: Rurikovich
          Well, then they were built according to one technical task of one

          Have you come up with this yourself? Or "read on one smart site"?
          Quote: Rurikovich
          the same program

          The program provided for the construction of ships of different plans. Therefore, your link to the program is incomprehensible.
          Quote: Rurikovich
          The difference between them is actually only that the “Novik” had great speed due to the weakening of the body.

          Better not write about ships. No, you can’t.
          These ships had EVERYTHING different. That’s all. In addition to minor and minor details. Try to realize it somehow.
      3. +1
        18 February 2018 16: 31
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        cruisers are very different, and indeed I don’t see than the service at the squadron

        Another "expert".
    2. +1
      18 February 2018 16: 29
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Boyar was engaged in what it was created for - close reconnaissance at the squadron.

      1. Near-reconnaissance at the squadron was carried out by a class 2 EDB or advice note.
      2. Boyarin was not a scout (patrolman, if you use later Soviet terminology), but a fighter cruiser. Small and neighbor. In fact, marine, not oceanic. What he did with his performance characteristics in Port Arthur is unknown to history. However, there were many such "obscure ships." "Brilliant admirals" burned not deTski.
      3. The scouts (ships of the water area protection) under the BASIS of the squadron (fleet) in 1 TOE were nominally Novik, Askold and Bogatyr. The penultimate and last were great. The latter is also distant. And also big armored the reconnaissance cruiser was Bayan. According to the project, distant. In fact, due to the curved case (defect of the theoretical drawing), the neighbor.
      Quote: Rurikovich
      then the same “Novik” with “Boyarin” would have justified their assignment by 100%, leading the destroyers to the attack.

      The destroyers were led by the so-called mine cruisers.
      Fighter cruisers (Boyarin) destroyed merchant and transport vessels of the enemy and foreign smugglers. The watchmen (reconnaissance cruisers) (Novik) were engaged in the protection of their water area just from such reconnaissance cruisers.

      These are the basics of naval affairs. ABC. And you do not know her.
      1. +7
        18 February 2018 16: 34
        Quote: wersa
        These are the basics of naval affairs. ABC.

        No, this is bullshit
        1. +6
          18 February 2018 16: 59
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          No, this is bullshit

          Absolutely agree!!! Yes and judging by the style and classification billiard, this comrade is already familiar to us what lol
          1. 0
            18 February 2018 18: 22
            Quote: Rurikovich
            Absolutely agree!!!

            Do not want to study?
            Do not study. The cabmen will take it anyway.
          2. +5
            18 February 2018 18: 54
            Quote: Rurikovich
            and judging by the style and classification billiard, this comrade is already familiar to us

            Of course :)))
            "He wept, then laughed, then bristled like a hedgehog,
            He mocked us, well, crazy, what do you take? "


            Z.Y. I’m thinking here, in the future, to write a couple of lines on the topic of Makarov’s “Reasoning,” here a passer-by ... will explode laughing
      2. +2
        18 February 2018 17: 49
        Respected! The so-called mine cruisers could not, by definition, lead destroyers due to the fact that their speed rarely exceeded 18 knots. About reconnaissance at an EDB squadron of class 2 this is the same pearl!
        1. 0
          18 February 2018 18: 31
          Quote: Nehist
          The so-called mine cruisers could not, by definition, lead destroyers due to the fact that their speed rarely exceeded 18 knots.

          Rider type cruiser - 22-22,5 knots.
          It is not clear where in 1 TOE you found mine cruisers with 18 knots.
          In addition, I forgot to mention the destroyers as the "leading" ones. They are destroyers. Lairds, Norman, Forsh, Chantier, Nevsky Plant. 26-28,5 knots.
          Quote: Nehist
          About reconnaissance at an EDB squadron of class 2 this is the same pearl!

          So remember it. Useful. And try to understand and realize for yourself what “mobile wing of linear forces” means.
          1. +3
            18 February 2018 20: 07
            The so-called counter-destroyers, they are also destroyers according to the English classification were the prototypes of the destroyers. Well, mine cruisers of the Kazarsky type with their 6 47mm guns were no longer a danger to the Japanese destroyers. Or have you forgotten their fate? Where and when did they go out during the REV? Now tell about the mobile wing of linear forces the term itself, which appeared only after the LCR were put into operation !! Where did you see Class 2 EDBs at speeds superior to EDBs? About the Garibaldians, no matter how they are called DBK.
            1. 0
              18 February 2018 20: 38
              Quote: Nehist
              Well, mine cruisers of the Kazarsky type with their 6 47mm guns were no longer a danger to the Japanese destroyers.

              You forget what the "Japanese destroyer" is in those days. Even if it’s 1 class, but there were 2 and 3 classes.
              This is 120-200 tons and a maximum of 3 47 mm guns. Russian counter-destroyers (a very telling name) and mine cruisers were enough for them.
              If you mean larger and better-armed Japanese destroyers, their speed was about 30 knots. And for them, the armored deck (that Boyarin, that Novik), is a good target. But not protection.
              Especially in conditions of poor visibility. And in the afternoon, at the cost of losing several counter-destroyers, it was quite possible to destroy a small armored deck (this is not an armadillo after all). This is a good exchange.
              Quote: Nehist
              Where and when did they go out during the REV?

              Where and when did Retvisan go out?
              Where and when did Tsesarevich go out with Victory and Relight?
              Where and when did Askold go out?
              Where and when did Bayan go out?
              The fact of the matter is that no one went anywhere. Except once, when they went in a heap, after which 1 TOE was actually destroyed.
              Quote: Nehist
              And now tell about the mobile wing of linear forces the term itself, which appeared only after the LCR were put into operation!

              You are mistaken. LCR, this is just the new name for Class 2 EDB. Just like the battleship, this is the new name for Class 1 EDB. At a different quality level, of course.
              Quote: Nehist
              Where did you see Class 2 EDBs at speeds superior to EDBs?

              Everywhere. Everywhere I saw an EDB of class 2, whose speed exceeded the speed of an EBR of class 1. And that is precisely why the range of an EDB of class 2 was greater than the range of an EDB of class 1. In addition to the obsolete EDB class 2 (such as Victory), of course.
              Quote: Nehist
              About the Garibaldians, no matter how they are called DBK.

              Nobody even thought to name the Garibaldians of the 2nd class EDB. Sometimes they are very conditionally called "third-class EDB." Sometimes, battleships for the poor. But the EDB is of class 2, these are ships of a completely different class.
              1. +3
                18 February 2018 22: 59
                The centurion, the founder of all 2nd-class EDBs, never had a speed advantage over the EDB. The remaining powers proceeded from the same considerations. Are you kidding or do you know so little of the basic composition of the Japanese mine forces? The main destroyers of Japan in the REV surpassed the Russians in armament, and since you say that they and Novik drown once they spit, mine cruisers of the Kazarsky type are not a problem for them at all. With regards to the number of destroyers in Japan, they were not actively used. And yes, I would like to see the battle of the same Novelty with a standard squad of 4 as you call large destroyers of Japan, even with 2 squads))))
                1. 0
                  18 February 2018 23: 41
                  Quote: Nehist
                  The centurion, the founder of all 2nd-class EDBs, never had a speed advantage over the EDB.

                  Centurions walked 18 knots. At the same time as modern-day EDBs of the 1st class, they traveled 16-16,5 knots.
                  The classic bunch of actual contemporaries (according to the final performance characteristics) in the RIF is EDB 1st class Poltava and 2nd class EDB Pobeda. By REV it was already an obsolete bunch.
                  Quote: Nehist
                  and since you are claiming that they and Novik should sink once they spit, the mine cruisers of the Kazarsky type are not a problem for them at all.

                  So what? Have I ever designed and built such ships for the RIF?
                  But, I repeat again, Novik for the Japanese destroyers, this is prey. Not easy, but nonetheless. Palming prey to predators is wrong. Therefore, no destroyers Novik and Boyarin were not led into the battle.
                  1. +1
                    19 February 2018 01: 17
                    Canopus Majestics 16 knots go?
                    1. 0
                      19 February 2018 09: 01
                      You in vain compare Centurion with Canopus. They need to be compared with the Royal Sovereigns, this is one generation, the beginning of the 90s.
                      Majestics is the mid-90s. They never walked 18 knots from their kind. Even ngadduvom. Canopuses 18 knots walked. But this is the end of the 90s, the beginning of the 0s. Another generation.
  4. +5
    15 February 2018 07: 41
    The entire tragedy of that war in the absence of the brave and initiative admirals ... Makarov died at the wrong time and inappropriately ... And Nakhimov and Ushakov definitely would not have given the Japanese a chance ...
    1. Cat
      +4
      15 February 2018 11: 21
      Quote: avia12005
      The entire tragedy of that war in the absence of the brave and initiative admirals ... Makarov died at the wrong time and inappropriately ... And Nakhimov and Ushakov definitely would not have given the Japanese a chance ...

      At the expense of Nakhimov, I find it difficult to agree with you, but I agree 100% about Ushakov!
    2. +7
      15 February 2018 13: 31
      Quote: avia12005
      The whole tragedy of that war in the absence of brave and initiative admirals ... at the wrong time and out of place Makarov died ...

      Unfortunately, Makarov’s initiative was excessive. In fact, he assumed the responsibilities of both the commander and the headquarters - and therefore missed details, such as the fact that the unknown silhouettes at sea in the area of ​​maneuvering the squadron could not be Russian MM, since the Russian MM arrived at the base only in the morning - pursued by the Japanese. Or the fact that the Bayan, who was ordered to support the returning MM, stands in the harbor - and on the outer roadstead there is a "sleepy goddess" who would be able to get to our battlefield faster.
      In his last battle, Stepan Osipovich managed to split the squadron and fly with his squad directly to the main forces of Togo. If the Japanese mine bank at the G1 had not already been put up, then Makarov could have lost 2-XNUMX KR at the exit. And so Togo gently drove his squad to the squadron, expecting that Makarov, after joining, would begin template maneuvering. And Makarov met Togo's expectations ...
      1. 0
        15 July 2018 19: 02
        Yes, he broke a lot of firewood, what there ....
    3. +1
      18 February 2018 16: 38
      Quote: avia12005
      f on time and inappropriately died Makarov ...

      There was little loss.
      Quote: avia12005
      But Nakhimov and Ushakov would certainly not give the Japanese a chance ...

      Steam ships, not sailing. And the Japanese, these are not demoralized subjects of the crumbling Ottoman Empire. The guns, again, are different. Therefore, your statement is doubtful.
    4. 0
      15 July 2018 19: 01
      The whole tragedy of that war in the absence of brave and initiative admirals ...

      You might think that the rest of the gold mining .... xxxxx (insert the necessary) were brave and initiative.

      Notice the fact that there are two castes on the RIF ships --- “combatant” and “spirits”. The pre-fortified gold-chasing xxxxx (which is necessary to enter) was quite ready to be held captive (and what is it? Passion bearers!) But was not ready to abandon leather sofas and grand pianos, even in war.
  5. +17
    15 February 2018 07: 46
    Interesting and article and topic!
    Super!
    The treacherous blow on our squadron gave the Japanese a bonus, was seriously weakened
    And I also had to pull myself out of the bay, slowly and sadly, while the Japanese marched in battle
    They reduced the opportunities and chances to Russians
  6. +5
    15 February 2018 08: 20
    Well ... essentially so ... a battle of missed opportunities .. Thank you ..
    1. +1
      18 February 2018 16: 42
      Quote: parusnik
      .battle

      Battle? Or a bloody battle? Or maybe a hassle? What is more appropriate?
      Quote: parusnik
      missed opportunities

      Yes, the very wise "sitting at the headquarters" of Stark did not give the Japanese the opportunity to finish off 1 TOE that day. They finished off a little later.
  7. +4
    15 February 2018 09: 00
    Many thanks to the author for an interesting note. Special thanks for the lack of Russophobia common to the theme of the Russo-Japanese War.
  8. +16
    15 February 2018 10: 05
    Good article.
    Despite everything, the Japanese did not achieve significant results.
    And later on Russian mines they will lose armadillos.
    Excuse for our wrecked ships)
    1. Cat
      +2
      15 February 2018 11: 23
      Alas, on mines, in addition to iron, we lost Vice Admiral Makarov.
      1. +16
        15 February 2018 12: 03
        Ebras "Hatsuse" and "Yashima" are certainly good prey
        But you Kotische are absolutely right - our Makarov was worth a whole fleet.
        So the loss, ex. from iron - irreplaceable
        1. +2
          15 February 2018 12: 20
          Quote: Blue Cop
          But you Kotische are absolutely right - our Makarov was worth a whole fleet.


          I apologize, but could you please explain what S.O. Makarov did in Port Arthur without arguably respected to give such a comparison.
          1. +16
            15 February 2018 12: 27
            He made very serious preparations for future action
            Increased the combat readiness of the squadron
            Worked on the coherence of its units
            I don’t want to retell books, a lot has been written about this, including in special studies devoted to the REE at sea
            1. +1
              15 February 2018 12: 39
              Quote: Blue Cop
              I don’t want to retell books, a lot has been written about this, including in special studies devoted to the REE at sea


              Could, if it is not difficult for you to indicate the publication? Thank you in advance for your reply.
              1. +16
                15 February 2018 13: 09
                Is this called mutual enrichment?)
                I heard on this site such an interesting term.
                Well at least do not ask to retell)
                Okay, how to make a little list - I’ll send
                1. +2
                  15 February 2018 13: 33
                  Quote: Blue Cop
                  Is this called mutual enrichment?)
                  I heard on this site such an interesting term.


                  No, I have not heard.

                  Increased the combat readiness of the squadron
                  Worked on the coherence of its units


                  Honestly, this is not the answer. Since it is given everywhere, without indicating specific data.
                  1. +17
                    15 February 2018 13: 55
                    Well, I just wrote to you that Makarov was an outstanding specialist and did a lot to increase the combat readiness and tactical coherence of the 1st squadron.
                    Therefore, its loss is a concrete blow for the fleet. This is obvious even for the Soviet historiography of WWI.
                    And as for the list of works - if you bear it, I’ll send it later.
                    1. +16
                      15 February 2018 13: 55
                      REV, slip of the tongue
                      1. +17
                        15 February 2018 18: 12
                        For example
                        REV. Source. Book 1. St. Petersburg., 1912.
                        Beklemishev. About the Russian-Japanese war at sea. 1907.
                        There are a lot of materials, but I like these most
                      2. +1
                        15 February 2018 19: 11
                        REV. Source. Book 1. St. Petersburg., 1912.
                        Beklemishev. About the Russian-Japanese war at sea. 1907.


                        Thank. The first one I have is a multivolume and 2 volumes and the second one is also available.


                        Read Chapter 12, Squadron Battle, from this book. If you read, it does not seem strange to you that the respected admiral writes about the use of a battering ram in a squadron battle or shooting "in two fires" with 10 cables. At the same time, both Russian and other fleets of the world have already begun to practice shooting at 30-40 cable ones?
                        The best system is the wake line, although tactics in the Russian fleet, I think so to put it, have been dominated by another since 1890. Under it, ships of the same type were built, in a certain amount.

                        A lot of questions, right?
                  2. 0
                    18 February 2018 16: 58
                    Quote: 27091965i
                    If you read, it does not seem strange to you that the respected admiral writes about the use of a battering ram in a squadron battle or shooting "in two fires" with 10 cables. At the same time, both Russian and other fleets of the world have already begun to practice shooting at 30-40 cable ones?

                    This is not all of his "proposals." Many of them even in those days quite rightly laughed. For example, his concept of an armless, relatively low-speed trade fighter cruiser with heavy (relative to his class) weapons on board.
            2. 0
              18 February 2018 16: 54
              Quote: Blue Cop
              I don’t want to retell books

              You should not have read it. This is a smart book. Maybe then they would understand more what was there, but how.
        2. 0
          15 February 2018 23: 34
          Quote: Blue Cop
          Ebras "Hatsuse" and "Yashima" are certainly good prey
          But you Kotische are absolutely right - our Makarov was worth a whole fleet.
          So the loss, ex. from iron - irreplaceable

          Ebro “Hatsuse" and "Yasima" Togo would not have lost if Makarov had survived. Since the uniformity of Togo’s actions stemmed from the uniformity of behavior of the Russian squadron. A skirmish with the Electric Cliff somehow became commonplace.
          It should be added that with Makarov we lost the ebras of Petropavlovsk and the victory was damaged. So in addition to the admiral, there was nothing to replace the iron either.
          1. +1
            18 February 2018 17: 03
            Quote: Antares
            Ebro “Hatsuse" and "Yasima" Togo would not have lost if Makarov had survived.

            Yes, in this case, Witgeft would not command a squadron. And Makarov’s plan for such a mine operation might not have matured.
            Quote: Antares
            Makarov and I lost the ebras of Petropavlovsk and the Victory was damaged. So in addition to the admiral, there was nothing to replace the iron either.

            Petropavlovsk generally does not understand why hanging out in the PA. There was little sense from him, not for nothing that he was appointed flagship. A strong ships usually do not appoint flagships.
            Just look at the YaIF, the flagship was a mediocre Mikasa. But not Hatsuse (the strongest Japanese EDB) or Shikishima.
            Sevastopol, too, had nothing to do in the PA.
        3. 0
          18 February 2018 16: 53
          Quote: Blue Cop
          our Makarov was worth a whole fleet.

          Gee-gee-gee.
          Can you justify your claim with something?
          I can confirm Makarov’s worthlessness, not even as a naval commander, but as an ordinary shipmaster (captain 1 or even 2 ranks) by the way he threatened Petropavlovsk. Here you have a real example from history. And how can you answer?
          Quote: Blue Cop
          So the loss, ex. from iron - irreplaceable

          Really?
          Can you still describe to us 33 deeds accomplished by this "brilliant naval commander"? Or at least describe to us a case in life when this "brilliant naval commander" simply commanded the fleet?
          Makarov was no better and no worse than Stark, Rozhdestvensky and other Viren. Exactly the same talker with a beard, like them. From which, for propaganda reasons, they made an icon.
        4. 0
          15 July 2018 19: 05
          Makarov was worth a whole fleet.


          Makarov was artificially promoted - moreover, by the choir and liberal liberal swamp opposition and the “regime”: mainly because he died very successfully. The hero was also needed, and so that "but if .... ..."
      2. +6
        15 February 2018 13: 39
        Quote: Kotischa
        Alas, on mines, in addition to iron, we lost Vice Admiral Makarov.

        Moreover, “Petropavlovsk”, “Hatsuse” and “Yashima” died for the same reason - template maneuvering. Our squadron maneuvered the GXNUMX each time, the Japanese walked about the same “corridor” past Port Arthur. Landing mines just begs. smile
      3. 0
        18 February 2018 16: 44
        Quote: Kotischa
        Alas, on mines, in addition to iron, we lost Vice Admiral Makarov.

        Better two. Or, the path is even three. But Petropavlovsk with the crew, save.
        1. 0
          18 February 2018 23: 25
          Quote: wersa
          Better two. Or, the path is even three. But Petropavlovsk with the crew, save.

          We still have Poltava / Sevastopol (low speed-let down in the battle of the Yellow Sea) Relight / Victory (with these non-armadillos, it’s not a cruiser)
          Honestly in the alternative, you can play, let's say instead of Petropavlovsk they ruined the Victory for example ..
          We already had a motley squadron.
          1. 0
            18 February 2018 23: 52
            Quote: Antares
            We already had a motley squadron.

            The fact of the matter is that there was nothing to conduct a squadron battle of 1 TOE. There were no suitable number of special ships for this. They ventured into a squadron battle only after the Japanese lost 2 EDB. And even in vain. Although 4 EBRs became quantitatively versus 4 EBRs, one must take into account what kind of EDB they were.
            Poltava was equivalent to Fuji.
            Victory was inferior to Fuji.
            Tsesarevich and Retvisan were stronger than Fuji, but they did not even noticeably reach Asahi.
            Sevastopol and Peresvet were only for extras.
            So the result of the battle in LM is logical. And the death of Vitgeft is not necessary here.
            Although Witgeft I'm sincerely sorry. It was the most talented Russian admiral in that war. One of his mine operations in international waters was worth what (the Japanese cost 2 EDB).
            Only the name and origin did not come out. Therefore, the Bolsheviks made Makarov an idol. Surname is suitable. And the origin is almost proletarian. The perfect "dead genius".
  9. +3
    15 February 2018 12: 44
    Thanks to the author. I read it with interest and pleasure. Definitely a plus in karma. smile
  10. +4
    15 February 2018 13: 49
    In general, it should be noted that the fleet is not ready for war. The authorities in St. Petersburg and on the spot allowed unacceptable carelessness and incompetence in organizing the front and rear. There were reports from diplomats, valuable intelligence about Japanese preparations for war. What prevented them from listening to them, delaying the demobilization of old-timers under any pretext (Stalin in 1941 called on 800000 reservists supposedly to gather, without which we would have to be very tight), not to withdraw ships to the combat reserve, not to withdraw the Virenius squadron, etc., etc. .P. Of course, everyone is strong in hindsight, but Vice Admiral Makarov literally shouted about it. Yes, a war of fatal bad luck, missed opportunities, fatal accidents, when a single shell could solve the matter (the death of Rear Admiral Witgeft and most of his headquarters, the death of Major General Kondratenko ...). And after all, from the Japanese side, Nelson and Bonaparte were not observed, but, apparently, ours were even worse. Apparently, under the royal system of cropping, negative selection dominated. And frames, as you know, decide everything. Andrey from Chelyabinsk, as always, delivered a lot of pleasure with his material.
    1. +2
      15 February 2018 15: 42
      Quote: DARK
      There were reports from diplomats, valuable intelligence about Japanese preparations for war. What prevented him from listening to them, delaying the demobilization of old-timers under any pretext

      The same thing that prevented the fleet from testing missile fuses before the war. And not after the battle in the Strait of Korea, and not by order from the center, but on the initiative of Jessen.
      No money. There is no money in the fleet budget.
      Prior to the SPE "under the spitz," there was a proposal to keep old-timers in extra-long service by introducing increased payments - for better training of young personnel. In response, the author received a reprimand - for an offer leading to an aimless waste of public money.
      The same armed reserve was not invented from a good life.
      Quote: DARK
      Stalin in 1941 called on 800000 reservists supposedly to gather, without which we would have been very tight

      Not supposedly, but on fees. Most of these reservists went on retraining as a “second set” to the cadre divisions, resulting in mutant divisions: personnel under 12, privates and sergeants in combat units — one and a half staff, but command personnel from the lieutenant and above, traction and trucks - as in the cropped "six thousandth".
      The ambush itself was that the quantity and quality of the junior command staff was not enough to prepare even the regular number of privates, without reservists. So, in BTV KOVO more than a third of junior commanders had only primary education.
      Quote: DARK
      Do not take ships to reserve,

      Where to get the money for this?
      Quote: DARK
      Yes, a war of fatal bad luck, missed opportunities, fatal accidents, when a single shell could solve the matter (the death of Rear Admiral Witgeft and most of his headquarters, the death of Major General Kondratenko ...).

      The death of Kondratenko is not an accident, but the logical result of hatred and economy (this time - army) at the fortifications of Port Arthur.
      First of all, when designing the Port Arthur fortifications, they were based on the official reference given by the Asian part of the then General Staff, according to which the Japanese assumed the absence of artillery over 15 cm. This, in order to satisfy the economic conditions, led to the rejection of the thicknesses of concrete casings of casemated buildings, accepted by the engineering department [292], of 1,5–1,8–2,4 m and the reduction of the thicknesses of arches and walls by 0,3 m in the Arthurian fortifications. during the execution of the work, due to the same economic considerations, the local authorities allowed military engineers to reduce the thickness of the arches by another 0,3 m, and in places by 0,6 m. As a result, on the most important fortifications that were heavily bombed, the thickness of the arches was the residential barracks and other important defense bodies turned out to be only 0,91 m. There were also complaints about the quality of concrete, but the competent commission revealed the injustice of these complaints. But in any case, the 0,9th arches could withstand shells of not more than 15 cm caliber.
      © Yakovlev
      1. +1
        15 February 2018 17: 01
        Alexey RA, Your comments only strengthen my thesis about carelessness, etc. superiors. "There is no money. There is no money in the budget of the fleet." I note that the sovereign - the emperor in the census answered the question: - Occupation? - The owner of the Russian land. One of the richest people of that time. Could you attend to the question of the naval budget? - Could. I didn’t. Moreover, he could allocate his own funds, once the owner. Once the owner, had to delve into everything, like Stalin. Maybe then they supplied armor-piercing shells with Makarov caps and improved the fuses for them. Tell a trifle, and comrade In 1942, Stalin took the time to read the letter of Red Navy Larionov, summon him from besieged Leningrad to the Kremlin and support his ideas. So there was the famous PTAB 2,5-1,5 (Air Force Air Force Index - 7-T-118) - an anti-tank bomb weighing 1,5 kg in dimensions of 2,5 kg with a cumulative charge, designed to destroy tanks. Just in time for the Battle of Kursk and ripened.
        I will not argue about 800000 reservists, read Arsen Martirosyan, Yuri Zhukov. It says well why "supposedly" - i.e. to fees.
        1. +2
          15 February 2018 17: 18
          Quote: DARK
          I will not argue about 800000 reservists, read Arsen Martirosyan, Yuri Zhukov. It says well why "supposedly" - i.e. to fees.

          I prefer to read Shein, who worked with the archival primary. He just learned the question of the fees of 1941 in LJ - how the fees were organized, how, where, at what time and in what quantities the reservists were called up, with whom of the local authorities the call for the fees was to be agreed and who was released from the fees altogether.
          BUT "supposedly fees"- this is a BUS. They spent only 1 time - in 1939 - and didn’t do it anymore. For, unlike usual fees, the BUS even for a limited conflict with Poland simultaneously pulled out 634 thousand horses, 117 300 cars and 18 from the national economy 900 tractors (data on Meltiukhov).
          Actually, the main difference between hidden mobilization and fees is the mobilization of technology. This was not carried out in 1941. And without this mobilization, the cropped units had the same traction "for 1 division from the regiment."
          Quote: DARK
          Once the owner, had to delve into everything, like Stalin.

          It’s not worth idealizing IVS times. If we take the same fleet, then under Stalin, for example, before the war, half of the EM SF was either under repair. or demanded it - because in the main bay of the fleet the supply of steam, water and electricity from the shore was not provided. As a result, EMs, even in the parking lot at the base, killed the resources of the GEM and ADH.
          1. 0
            16 February 2018 13: 45
            Alexey RA, I apologize for interrupting our discussion yesterday -
            business ... Thank you for Shein, be sure to get acquainted.
            So, again about 800000 reservists. "Mobilization is war", therefore, in order to hide the fact of hidden mobilization, in April - May 1941, allegedly for training, 800000 people were called up to the Red Army. I emphasize, in 1941, not the 1939th.
            Regarding the "ordinary-untrained", the number of personnel of the rifle division in the state of wartime 04 / 400-416 from 05.04.41/14/483 - 100 people. After reading the memoirs of Sandalov, Rokossovsky, even Shatilov, who writes briefly about the beginning of the war, you will be convinced that the divisions of the border districts were well equipped with senior and middle and junior command personnel. I clarify the border districts. I would like, of course, Schaub it was even more vibrant, but 45% staffing of units and nowadays is a great holiday: someone went on vacation, someone went to another duty station, someone washed down, someone went to demobilization, etc. etc. Therefore, there was someone to train the rank and file. Remember, Simonov’s episode with Serpilin and the gunners who pulled XNUMX pieces of it from the Brest Fortress. And not just pearl, but fired. But Simonov did not invent this episode, he himself left the entourage, personally saw these people. The "untrained" soldiers and sergeants would not behave this way. By the way, the divisions - "six thousand" in the border districts were also not observed.
            Regarding the fleet ... Comrade. Stalin got to work the territory, defeated and squandered after the WWII and the civil massacre. Well, anyone who could not have enough money for the fleet was Stalin. Unlike Tsar Nicholas 2, who was unable to organize and useful to use the resources of the booming economy of the empire, which has not spent on wars since the time of the Russian-Turkish company and Skobelev’s campaigns. Therefore, "it is not worth idealizing the times of temporary detention facilities", but the fleet of the red emperor pulled on its veins, but pulled.
            Regarding the death of General Kondratenko, I note that this was the very accident that was inevitable in the war. Your humble servant on the military-industrial college - was the chief of staff of the artillery division of the 122-mm howitzers D-30. From personal experience I’ll say that getting to a specific dugout pointwise, at night, without a spotter, without data whether it is a dugout, or in another meeting is taking place - this, brothers, is from the realm of fabulous. Yes, even after three shots from one gun (why not give at least three volleys with the whole battery after shooting)! That's for sure - "the water is dark in the oblast." In general, it is practically impossible to do this on purpose, and the thickness of the floors in this case does not matter. So I repeat, a war of fatal bad luck, missed opportunities, fatal accidents. By the way, the Admiral of Togo spent the whole battle in the Yellow Sea on an open bridge, as did Vitgeft. At the same time, “Mikasa” received over ten hits of 305 mm shells, but ....
            1. 0
              16 February 2018 19: 26
              Quote: DARK
              So, again about 800000 reservists. "Mobilization is war", therefore, in order to hide the fact of hidden mobilization, in April - May 1941, allegedly for training, 800000 people were called up to the Red Army. I emphasize, in 1941, not the 1939th.

              Well, yes, yes ... true, for some reason, most of the recruits went to the internal districts. And the appeal for the training itself had to be coordinated already with the chairmen of the collective farms. Hidden mobilization, yeah. smile
              Quote: DARK
              After reading the memoirs of Sandalov, Rokossovsky, even Shatilov, who writes briefly about the beginning of the war, you will be convinced that the divisions of the border districts were well equipped with senior and middle and junior command personnel.

              But this is not confirmed by documents. Moreover, the quality of the training of the junior command staff was, to put it mildly, unimportant - especially after the most trained junior commanders were transferred from infantry to the BTV and the Air Force in 1940.
              Here is the preparation of infantry infantry:
              The knowledge of the junior commanding staff is weak, but nevertheless, the weapons in the unit know better than the commanding staff.
              The knowledge of ordinary cadets is low.
              They do not know automatic weapons at all and are only able to carry rifles and pull the trigger. Extremely poor knowledge of the materiel of small arms and besides the gunners do not know the names of the parts of the machine gun "DP" and the revolver. The machine gunners do not know the name of the parts and rules for disassembling the rifle. To great shame, and chagrin, cadet regiment schools have lesser knowledge of small arms than the knowledge of the Red Army, and yet despite this they are issued by junior commanders.
              © The KOVO weapons verification act for the 1940th year.
              Quote: DARK
              By the way, the divisions - "six thousand" in the border districts were also not observed.

              Here, for example, KOVO: 190th, 195th, 199th, 200th. But there they tried to put them at least in the second echelon.
              But in PribOVO, the 67th cadre with about 7 people. (000 - with attributed privates and sergeants) covered Liepaja.
              Quote: DARK
              Regarding the fleet ... Comrade. Stalin got to work the territory, defeated and squandered after the WWII and the civil massacre. Well, anyone who could not have enough money for the fleet was Stalin.

              Do you understand that the savings on the basis of many times overlaps with the costs of maintaining the combat readiness of ships and factory repairs?
              And what kind of shortage of money can we talk about in the context of the construction of the same naval base, Brooks and remdocks for LK Pr. 23?
              Quote: DARK
              Regarding the death of General Kondratenko, I note that this was the very accident that was inevitable in the war.

              An inevitable accident is when a shell flies into an open door or into an embrasure. And when the fort floors, which should protect the military personnel from enemy artillery fire, were not initially designed to withstand the shells of the guns already available to the enemy, this is a criminal neglect of duties on the part of those who demanded that the fort be cheapened.
              1. 0
                17 February 2018 11: 41
                Dear Alexey RA, in your comment you give an example of the “six thousandth” division - 200 sd
                But according to the memoirs of her commander, Colonel Lyudnikova 200 I Rifle
                "the division was manned by wartime and had all the weapons. But there were not enough artillery horses, so it was impossible to raise all the artillery of the division."

                (VIZH, 1966, N 9, p. 66-67).
                1. 0
                  19 February 2018 15: 18
                  Quote: Rt-12
                  But according to the memoirs of her commander, Colonel Lyudnikov, the 200th Rifle
                  "the division was manned wartime personnel and had all the weapons. But there was a lack of artillery horses, so it was impossible to raise all the artillery of the division. "

                  The key is highlighted. By the number of l / s 200 sd really approached the state of wartime - due to arrivals at the training camp. But it applies only to the number of l / s. Because according to the documents, this division was kept in the state of 4/120:
                  According to the Certificate on the holding of enlisted personnel in rifle divisions in 1941:
                  4/100 staff (divisions of the "main staff"): 41st, 45th, 62nd, 80th, 87th, 97th, 99th, 124th, 139th, 146th I, 159th, 173rd, 189th, 193rd, 197th, 228th.
                  state 4/120 (“reduced staff” divisions): 190th, 195th, 199th, 200th.
                  state 4/140 ("mountain rifle divisions"): 44th, 58th, 60th, 72nd, 96th, 192nd.

                  What, in fact, is indicated by the lack of a complete set of traction in artillery regiments.
            2. 0
              18 February 2018 17: 32
              Quote: DARK
              Comrade Stalin got to work the territory, defeated and squandered after the WWII and the civil massacre.

              1. 1MB just did not get to those territories. This is after the Bolshevik "Brest Peace" the Germans have advanced significantly east. Already without a fight.
              2. And now we quickly recall who organized this very “civil massacre”. What do you get? He himself organized this massacre with his friends, and then "he got such a territory"?
              Quote: DARK
              but the fleet of the red emperor pulled on the veins, but pulled.

              What for? So that later, during WW2, how would the Germans click the seeds?
              You can’t build something, don’t build. Golden Rule. And this, you know, "pulled on the veins." And what "pulled", you never thought? Then look at the results.
          2. 0
            18 February 2018 17: 24
            Quote: Alexey RA
            It’s not worth idealizing IVS times.

            Yes, not worth it. Especially knowing what and how the Germans did with the BF and the Black Sea Fleet. Roll out to pancake. And without any special losses.
        2. 0
          18 February 2018 17: 22
          Quote: DARK
          Maybe then they supplied armor-piercing shells with “Makarov caps”

          Actually, “Makarov caps” is a very conditional term. Because these are ordinary ballistic tips with an unsuccessful (Makarov) way of attaching them. After Makarov’s death, the RIF refused this method of attaching ballistic tips (Makarov’s caps). Moving to more successful designs.
      2. 0
        15 July 2018 19: 38
        No money. There is no money in the fleet budget.


        But that’s not the point .... Who personally banked the money? Correctly. And he had enough money for Dalniy, with brothels and ottelami, at least pour in. But at least on the fortifications around Port Arthur somehow it was not immediately.

        He was an English spy, and he had to be revealed in Portsmouth, at peace talks, so that at least something from Japan lost from this war they got (half-Sakhalin)
    2. 0
      18 February 2018 17: 18
      Quote: DARK
      There were reports from diplomats, valuable intelligence about Japanese preparations for war.

      You forget that 100 years ago, Asians were quite officially considered to be not at all completely human. Therefore, if the Japanese were preparing for war, then, in the opinion of the General Staff, perhaps with the Chinese. Or maybe with someone else. But not with RI.
      Quote: DARK
      What prevented him from listening to them, delaying the demobilization of old-timers under any pretext

      What for? Do you really think this would change anything?
      Quote: DARK
      not withdraw Virenius squadron

      Do you know its composition?
      In addition, there was a detachment of ships, not a squadron. Disabled squad.
      Quote: DARK
      but after all, Vice Admiral Makarov literally shouted about this.

      Can you get a reference to these "prophetic cries"?
      Quote: DARK
      Yes, a war of fatal bad luck, missed opportunities, fatal accidents, when a single shell could solve the matter (the death of Rear Admiral Witgeft and most of his headquarters, the death of Major General Kondratenko ...)

      Do not be shy. Continue this "bad luck" on 1MB. And 2 MV. And the Soviet period.
      Do not you think that this "bad luck" is more correctly called in other words?
      Quote: DARK
      Apparently, under the royal system of cropping, negative selection dominated. And frames, as you know, decide everything.

      The royal cadres, as you rightly noted, were far from the "seven spans." And then there was a disaster, because they were partially squeezed out of the country, and partially destroyed in it. Replacing with ... There are no words for what.
  11. +4
    15 February 2018 19: 24
    Quote: 27091965i
    Read Chapter 12, Squadron Battle, from this book. If you read, it does not seem strange to you that the respected admiral writes about the use of a battering ram in a squadron battle or shooting "in two fires" with 10 cables. At the same time, how Russian so other fleets of the world have already begun to practice shooting at 30-40 cable?

    Dear 27091965i, tell me please, who in 1897 practiced shooting at 30-40 cables?
    1. +2
      15 February 2018 19: 45
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      Dear 27091965i, tell me please, who in 1897 practiced shooting at 30-40 cables


      This refers to the 1904 edition. That is, in 1904. In the course of time, adjustments take place due to a change in tactical views, unfortunately dear (this is not irony) S. O. Makarov did not make changes and additions to his publication, until his death. In my opinion, if he had survived, he would have brought a lot of benefit to the Russian fleet, but he, like any other person, also had mistakes.
  12. +16
    15 February 2018 19: 38
    27091965,
    I also have discussions on naval tactics.
    I had in mind - the orders and actions of Makarov upon assuming office.
    Not everything is so unambiguous, even in naval battle tactics.
    I will study hi
  13. 0
    18 February 2018 18: 17
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    battle of missed opportunities

    And why not a "grand battle"?
    In fact, a short hassle.
    In addition, the Japanese missed the opportunity to defeat the 1st TOE right on that day precisely because of "an incomprehensible prolonged sitting of Stark on the shore."
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    at the disposal of the governor E.I. Alekseev and Vice Admiral O.V. Stark remained only 5 squadron battleships (Petropavlovsk, Sevastopol, Poltava, Pobeda and Peresvet), armored cruiser Bayan and 4 armored cruisers (Askold, Diana, Boyarin, Novik).

    Bayan and armored decks for squadron combat did not matter at all.
    Of the remaining “handful of disabled people”, Poltava was an obsolete first-class EDB. He could easily compete with Fuji on occasion or Yashima.
    Also obsolete class 2 EDB was Victory. There were no analogs of it at YaIF.
    The rest of the Russian armored "buckets with nuts" was just called the term "EDB". But according to the performance characteristics they were not. Unlike Japanese EDB.
    At the same time, Peresvet did not even have a single element that would allow at least formally reckoning this battleship to the EDB. In addition to the ardent desire of the Russian MMS.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    The situation was also worsened by the fact that the “Victory” and “Relight” in their firepower occupied an intermediate position between the Japanese battleships and armored cruisers.

    In fact, the Victory for the project was typically obsolete from the birth of the 2nd class EDB.
    And Peresvet, a failed battleship raider. Those. a failed raider who had a power component that allowed him to crush the enemy armored cruisers defenders of trade.
    According to the project, Peresvet (and Oslyabya) was the elder brother of Russia and the younger brother of the EDB like Retvisan.
    But in fact it was not clear what. I am at a loss to classify Peresvet correctly, but there was nothing at all from the EDB. And the only place where such a ship could be in the Far East is Vladivostok.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    each of them in its combat qualities approximately corresponded to the oldest and weakest Japanese battleships of the 1st combat detachment "Fuji" and "Yashima"

    The author at least bothered to compare Petropavlovsk with Yasima. Then he would not write such nonsense.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    To the credit of captain 1 rank A.A. Abergard, if he hesitated, then not for long. He had a choice - to comply with the charter, risking defeat of the main forces of the squadron, or, with a wave of his hand at the law, to take over the command.

    This Eberhard had to be kicked off (with his feet), demoted to sailors and thrown out of the fleet without pension. Once so stupid.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Therefore, at 11.05, a semaphore was adopted at Petropavlovsk: “Expect the squadron commander: do not drop anchor”.

    At least someone’s head worked.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    A separate description deserves the actions of "Novik" and "Bayan"

    They are not even worth mentioning. Because for a squadron battle, their "throwing" of an eaten egg is not worth it.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    but this is not so - the cruisers diverted the attention of the heavy Japanese ships, creating a certain nervousness, thereby easing the position of the few battleships of the Pacific Squadron.

    Gee-gee-gee.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    2) Shortly before the outbreak of war, there were more than 1500 senior personnel, including about 500 specialists, including squadron commandants, in reserve. So, on the Varyag cruiser, almost half of the commandants went into the reserve.

    Gee-gee-gee. It is immediately obvious that a man did not serve in the army for a single day.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Fuji and Yashima fired at Bayan

    Lord, what can’t you subtract in RuNet? From guns on sparrows. And the whole 2 EDB.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    The decision of H. Togo to leave the battle has no reasonable explanation.

    Because the diagrams you have given, this is a filkin letter. 1TOE “plowed the expanses of the ocean” along the coast, under the cover of coastal batteries. Ready at any moment to dive into the harbor. Togo realized that luring her into "big water" would not work. And temporarily left alone.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Actions governor E.I. Alekseev, who called the chief of the Russian squadron, could have led to a severe defeat of the Russian naval forces.

    Gee-gee-gee. Eberhard’s actions could lead to a heavy defeat of the Russian forces.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    At the same time, O.V. Stark was unable to take advantage of the advantages that he had.

    But is it possible in more detail? What were some of the secret advantages you discovered with Stark?
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    As subsequently wrote S.I. Lutonin, who fought in that battle as a senior officer of the battleship Poltava:
    “The Japanese came to the first battle without destroyers, and now we could successfully use the often practiced maneuver in the squadron of Admiral Skrydlov, when the destroyers, attacking the opposite sides of their battleships, suddenly jumped out into the gaps and went to attack. Four minutes later, they were on the right mine shot from the enemy, and during the battle, when all attention was paid to a large enemy and small weapons were not servants, all chances were that the attack would succeed. "

    Here are the memoirs that reveal the true professional level of the Russian officers of those years. This “memoirist” doesn’t even know that the day’s attack of the destroyers on a well-defended target, which is not only an armadillo, but even a class 2 armored carrier, meant in those days (destroyers) certain death.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    As a result of the battle

    Do you know the meaning of the term "battle"? Take an interest in the dictionary.
    1. +6
      18 February 2018 18: 51
      Not tired of nonsense flogging? She hurt, by the way
    2. +1
      18 February 2018 23: 31
      Quote: wersa
      the torpedo’s day attack on a well-defended target, which is not only an armadillo, but even a class 2 armored deck, meant in those days for them (destroyers) certain death.

      by the way, successes were indeed at night. The destroyers did not risk much during the day.
      Although it’s easy to speak with the overwhelming advantage in the logistics of the Japanese + quantity
      1. +2
        19 February 2018 07: 53
        Quote: Antares
        By the way, successes were really at night

        In fact, of course, such a tactic (an attack due to the system of battleships) was quite possible and feasible - the fact is that the EDB could then converge to 20 kbt or less (in Tsushima it reached 10). Fought accordingly even in Jutland
        1. 0
          19 February 2018 09: 18
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          such tactics (attack due to the system of armadillos) was quite possible and feasible

          Why was it not revised anywhere? Except in your fantasies. In yours and Lutonin.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Fought accordingly even in Jutland

          Dear, without going into details, Jutland, this is another era. Try to figure it out somehow.
          1. +2
            19 February 2018 10: 17
            Quote: wersa
            Why was it not revised anywhere?

            It wasn’t practiced by the Japanese, but Witgeft couldn’t decide on this in principle, but Rozhestvensky’s one and a half destroyers, and after a long transition it wouldn’t work - the technical condition is not that.
            Quote: wersa
            Dear, without going into details, Jutland, this is another era.

            Right. And the distance between the battleships, very, very different, is much greater. Therefore, despite the increased torpedo range, such attacks were much more dangerous. For destroyers
            1. 0
              19 February 2018 12: 52
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              The Japanese did not practice

              Fools?
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              with us - Witgeft couldn’t decide on this in principle

              Witgeft ordered the mining of the international transport corridor. If you do not know what it is, take an interest. To say that it was a risky operation is to say nothing.
              But Witgeft took a chance. And he won, destroying a third of the Japanese linear fleet at once. Unfortunately, he won only once. And then he died. At a combat post, doing his duty. This is a real Hero, this is a real admiral. Tea is not Makarov any.
              "Could not be decided in principle." Yes, after his mine operation, such a phrase is just a spit in the face. And Witgeft, and common sense.
              But the "ingenious Makarov" just did not dare to it.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              well, Rozhestvensky’s one and a half destroyers

              You do not know the topic well. Including you don’t know the tactics of the action of destroyers of those years.
              Yes, an armored deck of the 2nd rank could be destroyed by a torpedo squad (or even several) at the cost of heavy losses. But already with an armor of the 1st rank, this "trick" would no longer pass. And with the EDB, and even more so. Therefore, no one destroyers sent to certain death during the day.
              It is only you with Lutonin who fantasize. Moreover, Skrydlov along with you. Which proceeded from a false promise that the battle between the EDB will be at a distance of no more than 10 cabs. And the EDB along its course can approach up to 5 cabs and even less.
              1. +2
                19 February 2018 16: 44
                Quote: wersa
                Fools?

                The tactics are different. The British - practiced, by the way. Also fools, probably
                Quote: wersa
                Witgeft ordered the mining of the international transport corridor. If you do not know what it is, take an interest.

                This lie of yours has long been refuted - Witgeft did not allow anything to be mined in any international waters, and, of course, some kind of corridor exists only in your imagination (pretty much the same corridor)
                Quote: wersa
                You do not know the topic well.

                Yes, bad - I don’t know much. The only problem is that you “know” it with a minus sign, replacing knowledge with unbridled imagination
                1. 0
                  19 February 2018 16: 59
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  The British - practiced, by the way.

                  And can you give examples of such "practice"? That's right, so with 30-40 cabs. in the afternoon, British destroyers and an attack on the EDB. You will not find such examples. Because all your "facts", they are at the level of "la-la".
                  And why?
                  Because you write on topics in which you understand nothing. Take in RuNet pieces of other people's delirious verses, cut them across, glue them, as God sent, and publish. Not understanding the point.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  This lie of yours has long been refuted - Witgeft did not allow anything to be mined in any international waters, and, of course, some kind of corridor exists only in your imagination (pretty much the same corridor)

                  You need to learn. And only then discuss on topics in which you are a complete zero.
                  Here I briefly looked at your writings. And gradually I realized where in RuNet there are so many funny and strange "truths".
                  Yes, and your regret in this "article" (I had already met this piece on another site, but in about the same exposition) about "how a bad Stark missed the opportunity to nastypit Japanese", it is like a laugh.
                  And why not?
                  But because you do not understand what the Japanese EDB were. And what were the Russian "EDB". Those. you are not able to compare the fighting qualities of ships. Do not own the main. And from this you have such problems.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Yes, bad - I don’t know much.

                  Already good, you have embarked on a recovery path.
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  The only problem is that you “know” it with a minus sign, replacing knowledge with unbridled imagination

                  You just admitted that you know the topic poorly. But then you try to act as a kind of arbiter, and it is in the subject, which, from your words, you know poorly.
                  Funny.

                  Still, I can not recommend to you - a smaller aplomb. What you are a "major specialist" in naval affairs at the beginning of the last century is understandable to everyone. Therefore, one must be more modest. Read more. And write less.
        2. 0
          15 July 2018 19: 50
          such tactics (attack due to the system of armadillos) was quite possible and feasible


          This particular Battle was going somewhere in the 35th cab somewhere and more.
          The guaranteed course of the torpedo of that time is 10 cab.
          25 cab is 6 minutes (really 10, because you also need to accelerate) under medium-caliber fire and mine artillery. Success like a gritsa
      2. 0
        15 July 2018 19: 47
        The destroyers did not risk much during the day.

        Oh, these brave couch warriors!
        / rolls his eyes in delight /

        With a guaranteed torpedo range of 10 cabs, what could be the only result of a warship attack by a destroyer in good visibility?
    3. 0
      19 February 2018 09: 11
      Quote: wersa
      The rest of the Russian armored "buckets with nuts" was just called the term "EDB". But according to the performance characteristics they were not. Unlike Japanese EDB.

      Clarification:
      We are talking about the battleships remaining in service. Of course, the damaged Retvizan and Tsesarevich were a class 1 EDB. Not very strong, especially Tsesarevich, but nonetheless.
  14. +1
    19 February 2018 04: 23
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: wersa
    These are the basics of naval affairs. ABC.

    No, this is bullshit

    Yes, come on, Kolka is laughing
    1. +2
      19 February 2018 07: 48
      Quote: Comrade
      Yes, come on, Kolka is

      So I’m talking about that laughing
  15. +1
    19 February 2018 15: 50
    The decision of H. Togo to leave the battle has no reasonable explanation.

    Has - within the limits of reaching the fire of coastal batteries, the advantage in artillery is minimized, especially considering that coastal batteries were considered more accurate in artillery fire.
    Here is precisely Togo’s very competent decision to lure the Russian squadron out of protection of coastal batteries, but they left “without losing face”, and the crews received baptism of fire - they were shelled, which is worth a lot. Why not - when you have the opportunity to choose the time and place of the battle.

    At the same time, O.V. Stark was unable to take advantage of the advantages that he had. As subsequently wrote S.I. Lutonin, who fought in that battle as a senior officer of the battleship Poltava:
    “The Japanese came to the first battle without destroyers, and now we could successfully use the often practiced maneuver in the squadron of Admiral Skrydlov, when the destroyers, attacking the opposite sides of their battleships, suddenly jumped out into the gaps and went to attack. Four minutes later, they were on the right mine shot from the enemy, and during the battle, when all attention was paid to a large enemy and small weapons were not servants, all chances were that the attack would succeed. "


    Commanders take seats at anti-mine weapons and open fire - no more than a minute is required. Knock out the destroyer - 1-2 shells in the engine room, and then it is doomed.

    If a large number of destroyers took part in such an attack, there would have been some chance of a suicidal day attack. But after it serviceable destroyers could not remain at all.

    Of the 25 destroyers at the beginning of hostilities in the ranks were: in the first detachment 9, in the second detachment 9. Seven destroyers were not in service (Admiral E.I. Alekseev wrote: “All the 12 Falcon type destroyers assembled in Arthur, of which only 9 are afloat, in terms of quality and weakness, the structures are only suitable for coastal defense with a range of not more than 100 miles. ”
    At the beginning of hostilities, 7 destroyers were absent from the ranks: “Silent” due to boiler repair, “Vigilant” was also being repaired at the dock, and “Boyky” and “Burny” had not completed repair of cars and boilers, “Terrible”, “ Slender, Statny did not pass sea trials. In the system at the beginning of hostilities there were 18 destroyers).
    It is difficult to expect from the armed reserve, which goes to sea at the strength of 20 days a year, great training, however, with a simultaneous attack of 15-18 destroyers, firing 1-2 mines, the result could exceed the losses.
  16. +2
    20 February 2018 03: 12
    Quote: wersa
    It does not matter. They have the opportunity to have it. Although they do not use it.

    Basically, by law, any U.S. citizen born in the U.S. has the opportunity become president of the country, even the homeless. But for some reason does not use it, this very opportunity.
    But seriously, they have no opportunity to acquire their own housing in principle. Prices are rising, banks are tightening requirements, according to statistics, more than half of Canadians are not able to save up a down payment, which now should equal 20% of the cost of housing purchased. They are not able to set aside five hundred dollars a month after paying all bills.
    As for the Soviet Union, my young friend, there were many people who had their own homes. Do not believe? Ask your parents. And for this very property they did not have to pay taxes in the amount of from one to several percent of the value of the house.
    Why am I chewing it all for you, Nikolai, because it has nothing to do with the topic under discussion? Because you are a typical representative of young people who have created an idol in the form of the West and worship it, criticizing and cursing the Fatherland. In fact, the truth is that people in the Union were not slaves, and just the majority of the inhabitants of the “golden billion” are slaves, since they have nothing but personal belongings, a half-killed car and a couple of gadgets. And they live from payday to payday, without delaying anything, and also serving permanent credit card debts.
    Quote: wersa
    Witgeft ordered the mining of the international transport corridor. To say that it was a risky operation is to say nothing. But Witgeft took a chance. And he won, destroying a third of the Japanese linear fleet at once.

    How did you find out that Wilhelm Karlovich gave such an order? Either you were holding documents in your hands and now you will tell us where and which ones, or we can only think that Vitgeft told you about this personally, during a spiritualistic session.
    So the question is the same. How do you know that it was not the Amur commander who violated the order, but Witgeft ordered the mines to be put where they were placed. Spread it out. what do you have there? Scans of documents, links to recollections of eyewitnesses from the Vitgeft retinue, etc.
  17. +2
    20 February 2018 06: 28
    Quote: wersa
    Lord, what can’t you subtract in RuNet? From guns on sparrows. And the whole 2 EDB.

    Nicholas, any Your comment or statement easily rolls under a nut. Which I prove on specific an example. So, we open the "Description of military operations at sea 37-38 of Meiji", compiled by the Naval General Staff in Tokyo, and read that yes, indeed, two battleships fired at one cruiser.
  18. 0
    15 July 2018 19: 08
    It seems to me that the respected community has not noticed the most important thing: the fundamental discrepancy between the Russian and Japanese descriptions of the battle. Nevertheless, this is the most important moment in this episode of the war.

    If simpler, this illustrates the long-known (to interested persons) fact that "the Japanese can not be trusted."

    In the biographies of the great Japanese martial artists there are many completely fantastic episodes. So the explanation is simple: and these were dreams. Yes, dreams --- for the Japanese, there is no difference between a dream and a reality, a dream occurred in reality.

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