On the "pocket" battleships, Tsushima syndrome and the gloomy Teutonic strategic genius

273
Early morning. Light swell easily shakes His Majesty's ships on an ocean wave. Clear winter sky, visibility - from horizon to horizon. The boredom of months-long patrols, which could not be dispelled even by smoke noticed by the observer of Ajacks. Who knows what neutral transport leisurely smokes the sky in its merchant affairs?

Suddenly, a message from Captain Bell: “I think this is a“ pocket ”battleship.”





Thus began the first major naval battle of the second world war, which became one of the few classic artillery battles between large warships. Representatives of opposing concepts were confronted in it: the German “trade disruptor” - the pocket battleship “Admiral Graf Spee”, and the British “trade advocate” “Exeter”, supported by two light cruisers. What happened?

The British commander, Commodore Henry Harwood, divided his ships into two groups, with the Exeter turned to the left and rushed at the enemy, and the light cruisers tried to put the enemy in two fires. The commander of the "Spee", Hans Wilhelm Langsdorf also showed a healthy aggressiveness and went to a rapprochement with the enemy.

The battle began in 06.18 - the German raider was the first to fire from the 100 cable distance. In 06.20, in response, heavy 203-mm Exeter cannons struck, after a minute, Akilez supported him, and approximately at 06.23, Ajacks guns entered the scene.

In the first minutes of the battle, the German commander acted exemplary. He commissioned both towers of the main caliber and concentrated their fire on his main enemy, the heavy cruiser of the British. At the same time, the auxiliary 150-mm (actually 149,1 mm, but for brevity we will write the standard 150-mm) tools of the “pocket” battleship fired at the British light cruisers. Since the fire control of the German six-inch was carried out according to the residual principle, they did not achieve any success in the whole battle without achieving a single hit, but the benefit of them was that they irritated the British - being under fire is very difficult psychologically and affects the accuracy of shooting the ship.

Here I would like to note that the British see this moment of battle differently: that at the beginning of the battle, “Spee” divided the fire of its 283-mm guns and each tower fired at its target. But the Germans didn’t confirm anything - both towers fired on the Exeter, just first one tower gave a full three-gun salvo, and after it the second, and only after the target was covered the battleship switched to six-guns. From the outside it could really be perceived as firing at two different targets, especially since the 150-mm German gun fire focused on the British light cruisers (most likely one of them) and the British saw from the shells of the Germans shelling two targets, and not one.

The correct tactics brought the Germans quite predictable success. The first salvos of the 283-mm guns were made semi-armored projectiles, but then the artillery officer “Spee” Usher fired on the high-explosive 300 kg “suitcases” containing 23,3 kg of explosives. This turned out to be a perfectly correct decision, although it was criticized by the Germans after the war. Now the German shells exploded when hitting the water, fragments from close gaps caused Exeter almost more damage than direct hits. The confrontation of six 283-mm raider guns, guided by the traditionally magnificent German SLA and six 203-mm English “budgetary” heavy cruiser, provided with range finders and fire control devices on the principle of minimum sufficiency, led to a quite predictable result.

Already the third volley of the Germans gave cover, with the 283-mm projectile shell splintered the board and Exeter superstructure, and its seaplane, destroying the torpedo apparatus. This was in itself unpleasant, but the fragments also killed the signal readiness circuits. Now the senior artilleryman, Lieutenant Jennings did not know if his guns were ready for a volley, which significantly complicated his shooting. He could still give commands to fire a volley, but now he had no idea how many guns would participate in it, which made it difficult to shoot.

And the Germans continued to methodically shoot the Exeter: their fifth and seventh volleys gave direct hits. The first of them made a semi-slaughter shell with a slowdown - although by that time the Spee had fired high-explosive shells, apparently, the remnants of the semi-slaughter shells fed into the reloading compartment were being shot. This Exeter strike survived relatively safely - a shell pierced the cruiser on both sides and flew off without exploding. But the second hit was fatal. A high-explosive projectile struck the cruiser's nasal 203-mm turret and brought it out completely and failed, igniting a charge in one of the guns of the damaged turret. The cruiser immediately lost a third of its firepower, but the problem was different - the fragments fanned through the Exeter superstructure, killing all the officers, except the captain, but most importantly destroying fire control. Cables and intercoms connecting the rangefinder station with the conning tower and the cabin - with the central post were destroyed. From now on, Exeter, of course, still could shoot, but to get - no longer. Before the failure of the OMS, the heavy cruiser achieved two hits in the enemy’s “pocket” battleship. Exeter fired semi-armored projectiles, so the first hit, which came in an unarmored superstructure, led only to a small through-hole - the projectile flew off without breaking. The second projectile achieved more - breaking through the top of the 100 mm armor belt (although ... among foreign sources there is no consensus about the thickness of the armored belt "Admiral Count Spee". Many people believe that it was only 80 mm, however in our context it does not have practical value) and 40 mm bulkhead. Then he exploded, hitting the armored deck, could not pierce it, but caused a fire in the storage of a dry chemical to extinguish the fire. The people who extinguished the fire were poisoned, but in any case, the combat capability of the German ship did not seriously hurt.

More Exeter has not achieved anything. No, he, of course, continued to fight; it would not be in the tradition of the British to leave the battlefield. But how did he do it? The control of the ship had to be transferred to the aft superstructure, but even there all communication cables were put out of operation, so that the crew had to be transferred to the engine room through a chain of sailors. The two surviving 203-mm towers fired in the direction of the enemy - precisely to the side, because without centralized fire control it would be possible to get into the German raider by luck.

In other words, the British heavy cruiser almost completely lost its combat capability in less than 10 minutes of fire contact with the “pocket” battleship, while he himself failed to inflict any serious damage to the enemy. From the hunter, the Exeter turned into a victim — the cruiser could not oppose the volley of 283-mm guns to his “opponent”.

Why, then, did the cruiser survive? There was not a single reason that prevented "Scheer" from continuing to draw closer and finish off the "Exeter" - and then take up light cruisers. The “pocket” battleship did not have any serious damage - in addition to two 203-mm hits, the British managed to “reach” him with several 152-mm projectiles that did not cause the Nazi raider any serious damage. The fact is that the English light cruisers (as well as the Exeter, by the way) used semi-armored projectiles in the battle, too weak to penetrate the German armor, but flying away without breaking when they hit the unarmored superstructures. And if Langsdorf adhered to his original tactics ...

... but, alas, he did not stick to it.

Disputes still do not cease, who finally won the battle of Jutland - the British or Germans. The thing is that the British, no doubt, suffered much more serious losses, but the battlefield remained behind them, and the badly beaten Hochzeflotte could barely carry his legs. But regardless of the results of these disputes, one cannot but admit that “der Tag” (“Day” is a favorite toast of Kaiserlichmarin officers, glasses were raised during the day when two great fleet converge in a decisive battle) inflicted an indelible mental trauma on the officers of the German fleet. They were ready to fight, they were ready to die, but here they were categorically not ready to conquer the British. It is enough to recall the stupor that Admiral Lutiens fell into when the Hood and the Prince of Wells opened fire on Bismarck. Perhaps the stories about the occurrence of the “Tsushima syndrome” among Russian officers are justified, but it must be admitted that the German commanders were struck by the “Jutland syndrome” in its most severe form.

Captain tzur see Langsdorf did everything he could to overcome it. He bravely led his ship into battle (to be fair, at the time of the decision, Langsdorf believed that he was confronted by a cruiser and two destroyers of the British), and he, like Heyhatiro Togo, Vitgeftu and Beatty, ignored the conning tower on the open bridge.

And so it turned out that at the beginning of the battle the British could not “get” the German raider, they could not even scratch it. But on the other hand, they were able to “get” his commander - the fragments of a six-inch projectile struck Langsdorf in the shoulder and arm, and the energy of the explosion threw him back with such force that he lost consciousness. And when Langsdorf came to his senses, he no longer resembled the admiral of “gray times”. The officers present on the bridge then spoke neatly (honor of the uniform!) That their commander, after being wounded (characterized as insignificant), made “not enough aggressive decisions”

What should Langsdorf do? Continue to go the same course and speed, allowing his gunner, groped "Exeter", to complete the work so successfully begun by him and destroy the largest ship of the British - for this it would be enough to achieve just a few more hits. Here is a diagram with marks of the approximate location of the ships at the time of the battle.



In fact, there is no way to make any exact maneuvering scheme, because the German and English descriptions of the battle differ greatly from each other and have internal contradictions. Therefore, the graphic image is rather arbitrary. But, alas, there is no ambiguity in the actions of the German commander, regardless of when exactly he did this or that action, all sources agree that he transferred the fire of the main caliber to the light cruisers and turned it aside (perhaps in another sequence), thereby ceasing to approach the British ships. Then he seemed to be turning again on the enemy, but he immediately put the smoke curtain on (!) And again showed the British aft, and only then transferred the fire to the Exeter again. Here, the Spee gunners again showed themselves, hitting the British heavy cruiser three times, which caused the latter to lose the second nose tower of the main caliber, and somehow restored the fire control system was destroyed, now - forever. Lieutenant Jennings, however, and here he found a way out of the situation - he simply climbed onto the last surviving tower and led the fire directly from its roof. But in essence, Exeter was on the verge of death - a trim meter on the nose, broken devices, a speed of no more than 17 nodes ... The fruit is ripe, but Langsdorf did not stretch his arms to rip it off.

At this time, the "Spee" actually ran from two enemy light cruisers, occasionally putting up smoke curtains and "chasing after volleys", i.e. turning in the direction where the enemy’s shells fell so that the next enemy volley, adjusted for the previous error, would lead to a miss. Such tactics could be justified if the British commanders of light cruisers used it, if they were pursued by the Spee, but not vice versa. No rational explanation for such a "tactic" can be given. The Germans claimed that their commander, himself a former destroyer, feared the British torpedoes. But precisely because Langsdorf once commanded the destroyers, he simply had to know that weapon practically useless at a distance of 6-7 miles, on which he set off from the British cruisers. Yes, the Japanese with their “long lansy” would be dangerous, but who then knew about it? And it was not the Japanese who fought against Langsdorf. On the contrary, if he was afraid of torpedoes, then he should have approached the British for some time, provoking them to a volley, and then, indeed, retreat - the chances of hitting the “pocket” battleship torpedo after that would be less than illusory.

Another way of explaining Langsdorf’s actions is that he was afraid to take damage that would prevent him from crossing the Atlantic, and for this reason he had to be approached with all seriousness — that it would be a good idea to drown the enemy underaged cruiser if you had to sacrifice a much more powerful ship on empty place? But the fact is that Langsdorf ALREADY got involved in the battle, which the British waged in their characteristic aggressive manner, despite the fact that their cruisers were faster than the “pocket battleship” and the Germans could not interrupt the battle at will. Langsdorf did not win anything, delaying the battle, he needed to complete it as soon as possible, and since he could not escape, then he could only neutralize the British ships as soon as possible. His “pocket” battleship possessed the necessary firepower for this.

In fact, even retreating, the “Admiral Count Spee” could well destroy the English pursuing him. But Langsdorf constantly demanded to transfer fire from one target to another, not letting his gunners properly, or in every way interfered with his “hunt for volleys” by throwing the “pocket” battleship from side to side. It is known that fortune favors the bold, but Langsdorf in this battle did not show courage - perhaps therefore a sad misunderstanding added to the mistakes he made. During the battle, there was no such case when the German fire control system would be incapacitated, but at the crucial moment when the distance between Spee and Harwood light cruisers was less than 6 miles and Langsdorf once again ordered to move the fire from Ajacks "At Akilos, the connection between the wheelhouse and the rangefinder was broken. As a result, the gunners fired at Akilez, but the range-finders continued to tell them the distance to Ajacks, so, naturally, the Spee did not hit anyone.


The heroic Exeter returns to Plymouth after the battle of La Plata


However, a detailed description of the battle of La Plata is not the task of this article. All of the above said to the fact that a dear reader noted for themselves quite simple facts.

When creating “pocket” battleships, it was necessary to find a combination of armor and armament that would provide the German ship with a decisive advantage over any “Washington” cruiser, and the Germans succeeded. Any "Washington" and light cruiser who did not evade battle, were "legitimate game" for the pocket battleship. Of course, the raider’s first task is to destroy the merchant tonnage, evading naval battles. But, if the enemy cruisers manage to impose a battle on the pocket battleship, well, so much the worse for the cruisers. With the correct tactics of the “Spee,” Harwood’s ships were doomed.
To the great happiness of the British, Captain Zur See Langsdorf adhered to the correct tactics, taking full advantage of the advantages of his ship exactly 7 minutes - from 06.18, when the Spee opened fire and before turning to the left, i.e. the beginning of the flight from the British cruisers, which occurred approximately in 06.25. During this time, he managed to incapacitate the British heavy cruiser (destroying the SLA and the main caliber tower), without receiving any significant damage. In other words, Langsdorf won, and won with a crushing score for the British. In order to put the Harwood squad on the verge of defeat, the “pocket” battleship took seven, maybe (taking into account possible mistakes in the timing) on ​​the strength of ten minutes.

On the "pocket" battleships, Tsushima syndrome and the gloomy Teutonic strategic genius

"Exeter", alas, still died, but it happened at another time and in another place


However, after these 7-10 minutes, instead of finishing the Exeter, and then concentrating the fire on one of the light cruisers, irritating the other with the 150-mm guns, Langsdorf seemed to forget that he was leading a “pocket” battleship against three cruisers, and fought as the light cruiser should have fought against three “pocket” battleships. Usually, analyzing this or that naval battle they say about some mistakes of commanders made at one time or another, but the whole battle of Langsdorf, starting with 06.25, was one big mistake. Had a decisive commander in his place - and today the British would remember La Plata in the same way as Coronel, where Maximilian von Spee, in whose honor Langsdorf’s ship was named, was remembered, destroyed the squadron of British Admiral Cradock.

This did not happen, but not because the designers of the Admiral Count Spee did something wrong. It is impossible to blame the ship’s design for the indecision of its commander.

Recall how to create "pocket" battleships. The Versailles Treaty limited the displacement of the six largest ships in Germany, which she was allowed to build 10 thousands of tons, but did not limit the caliber of their guns. As a result, the German Navy, like the epic warrior, was at a fork in the three roads.

On the one hand, it was proposed to build such semi-messenger-semi-monitors - four 380-mm guns, 200 mm of armor of the citadel and the speed of the 22 node. The fact is that the countries surrounding post-war Germany (Poland, Denmark, Sweden, Soviet Russia, etc.) had moderate force fleets, the most powerful ships of which carried 280-305-mm artillery. The only exception was France, but in Germany it was believed that the French would not risk sending their dreadnoughts to the Baltic, which, after the France explosion, there were only six left, and would be limited to a maximum of Dantons. In this case, six ships with 380-mm cannons practically guaranteed the domination of the Baltic on the Germans and thereby restored to it the status of a naval power.

On the other hand, Germany, at the very beginning of 1923, appeared draft sketches of the I / 10 project. It was almost a classic “Washington” cruiser, in which, by the way, the future Admiral Hipper’s features were well guessed - 10 000 t, 32 knot, 80 mm armor belt with 30 mm deck and bevels and four two-tower turrets with 210-mm guns

However, both of these versions of the German sailors did not satisfy (although the future Commander Grigsmarine Raeder was inclined to the version of the 380-mm ship). The fact is that the German Navy did not want to limit itself to coastal defense, hoping for more, and therefore little seagoing armadillos-monitors were unacceptable for him. As for the cruisers, they were very interesting to the sailors, but having built them, the Germans would have received six quite ordinary ships, which the leading naval powers had considerably more, and which could not cause England’s concern. The six "almost Washingtonians", of course, did not pose a big threat to British shipping.

And finally, there was a third route proposed by Admiral Zenker, who in the recent past commanded the Fon der Tann battle cruiser in the Jutland battle. He proposed reducing the caliber of the future ship by adopting something intermediate between the 150-mm and 380 mm and creating something that would become obviously stronger than any heavy cruiser, but faster than the main mass of battleships of the world that had a 21-23 speed node. So, in 1926 r was born the project 1 / M / 26, which became the prototype of pocket battleships.

What can be said about these ships?

In order to ensure the overwhelming superiority over the heavy cruisers of the world, it was possible to go in two ways - to strongly protect the ship, providing it with moderate-caliber artillery, or to rely on powerful weapons with moderate protection. The first path was traditional for German design ideas, but this time the emphasis was placed on very powerful 283-mm guns, while booking was only slightly superior to that of most armored cruisers, even, perhaps, behind the most protected ships of this class. Yet the armor applied on the “pocket” battleships could not be called bad. Even on the weakest head “Deutschland”, as V.L. Kofman, she from any angle provided from 90 to 125 mm the total thickness of armor with a combination of horizontal and vertical (mostly inclined) obstacles. At the same time, the booking system was improved from ship to ship, and the most protected of them was the Admiral Count Spee.


Parade on Spithead raid. Foreground "Admiral Count Spee"


Heavy-duty artillery was supplemented with an excellent fire control system - the “pocket” battleships were provided with three command-range posts (KDP) each, one of which had an 6-meter rangefinder, and the other two were 10-dimensional ones. KDP were protected by 50 mm armor, and the observation of them could be carried out through periscopes. Let's compare this splendor with the British Kent cruisers, which had one 3,66-meter rangefinder in the conning tower and two of them that stood open on the wings of the bridge, as well as the 2,44-meter rangefinder on the aft wheelhouse. Data from rangefinders on British ships processed the central post, but there were two of them on the German “pickpockets” - under the bow and stern logging. Not all battleships could boast such a perfect MSA. German ships were equipped with artillery radars, but their quality was very low and did not allow to adjust the fire, so that they were used only to detect potential targets.

Contrary to popular belief, initially 150-mm artillery of pocket battleships was not at all a “poor stepdaughter” in fire control — it was assumed that the distance to its targets would be measured by one of the control gearboxes, and a backup center located in the stern of the ship would be generated . But in practice, the commanders preferred to use all three KDPs to ensure the work of the main caliber, and the stern settlement center was given the responsibility to “supervise” the anti-aircraft artillery - so it turned out that there was no one to deal with the 150-mm auxiliary caliber.

Thus, the Germans turned out to be a ship capable of quickly destroying an enemy cruiser with the help of powerful artillery and SLA, and protected so as not to suffer heavy damage during such a battle. Given the fact that his diesel power plant provided him with a range of up to 20 000 miles, the “pocket” battleship became almost the ideal heavy artillery raider.

Of course, he had his shortcomings. In an effort to meet the weight requirements, the company MAN overburdened diesels, as a result of which they were exposed to strong vibration and made a lot of noise. Critics of the project quite rightly pointed out that it would be better for the “pocket” battleship to take less ballast, but to make the diesels heavier (whatever one may say, they are located at the very bottom of the hull) and the project would only benefit. However, it should be noted that the commonly mentioned inability to communicate, notes and blood from the ears still apply to cases where the ship was in full swing, otherwise the noise was not so strong. Intermediate caliber - 150-mm artillery, was also a mistake, it would be better to strengthen anti-aircraft weapons or armor. The reservations were considered by the Germans to be sufficient for a medium-range battle, but the hit of an Essex 203-mm projectile, in which both the armor belt and the 40-mm bulkhead were punched behind him, hint that everything was not so clear. If the projectile had passed a little lower, it could have exploded right in the engine room. Were there "pocket" battleships and other, not so obvious flaws, but, strictly speaking, which ship does not have them?

Often the blame "pocket battleship" put a low speed. And indeed - their 27-28 knots gave them an advantage over the battleships of the era of the First World War, but already at the time of laying the leading Deutschland there were seven ships in the world that could catch up with him and destroy them without any problems. We are talking about the Hude, Ripalsa, Rinaun and four Japanese Congo-class battlecruisers. In the future, as the construction of the battleships of the new generation (starting with the "Dunkirk"), the number of such ships grew rapidly.

Is it possible on this basis to consider the German "pocket" battleships unsuccessful ships? Yes, in any case.

First, we must not forget that high-speed battleships have a lot of other things to do except to chase someone across the expanses of the Atlantic and Indian oceans. And here's the result — theoretically, the Allies could send five high-speed battleships and battle cruisers to search for the Admiral of the Count Spee — three British ships and the Dunkirk with the Strasbourg. But in practice, the British managed to attract only Rinaun sent to the South Atlantic to catch the raider, and the French battleships, although formally they were part of the "counter-enemy" groups, did not take any active actions. And this is in 1939 g, when the allies fought only against Germany, and Italy and Japan with their powerful fleets had not yet entered the war!

Secondly, diesel “pickpockets” had a huge advantage over ships with a conventional power plant - they had a very high economic speed. The same "Spee" could pass on 18 nodes more than 16 000 miles, no battleship or battlecruiser could boast such a thing. In other words, yes, the same “Dunkirk”, when meeting with “Scheer”, of course, is able to catch up and destroy the latter, but it would be quite difficult to arrange such a “meeting” with a rapidly moving “pocket” battleship.

And thirdly, it should be understood that the “pocket” battleships, surprisingly, perfectly fit into the kriegsmarine strategy and could play a crucial role in the Anglo-German struggle at sea.

The fact is that the German plan of military operations against Britain, around which the pre-war fascist fleet was created, provided for the following strategy: it should have raider forces sufficient to force the British to send part of their line squadrons to the ocean and high-speed battleship groups able to intercept these squadrons and destroy. Thus, "biting off a piece" of the British fleet was supposed to equalize with him in strength, and then - to achieve superiority at sea.

The logic seems to be absurd, but let us imagine for a moment that the Bismarck’s raid into the Atlantic was for some reason turned out to be postponed or even ended in success.

In this case, by the end of 1941 — the beginning of 1942 — the Germans in the fleet would have fully prepared for battle “Tirpitz”, “Bismarck”, “Scharnhorst” and “Gneisenau”. But the British from high-speed battleships would have only “King George V”, “Prince of Wells” and the Duke of York, which had just been commissioned (November 1941 g) and had not passed combat training, individually ships of the Bismarck type were stronger than the British battleships.



And the rest of the battleships? Some high-speed ships of the type "Queen Elizabeth" are connected by the Italian fleet in the Mediterranean. Bringing them out of there - bring down the whole Mediterranean strategy of Great Britain, which the British would not forgive any government. The ships of the type “Royal Soverin” and “Rodney” are slow-moving and would not be able to intercept the German linear formation, moreover, even at a meeting, it could always evade battle. There remained only the "two and a half" of the English high-speed battleship, and the battle cruisers. France has already capitulated and cannot count on its linear forces, the United States suffered a crushing defeat at Pearl Harbor and cannot help England.

Had this happened, and every high-speed ship would have been with the British in the account. Moreover, the battleships must be periodically repaired - of the six high-speed ships, some will almost always be repaired. The Germans, on the contrary, it is easy to bring their battleships into a combat-ready state by the pre-appointed date of the raid.

For example, the Germans send their "pocket" battleships to raiding. In this case, the British would be in an extremely difficult situation. Send battlecruisers in the sea, in pursuit of "pickpockets"? And risk the fact that the four Krigsmarine battleships will go to sea and will have to fight with them not in full force? This is fraught with defeat, after which the British communications will be defenseless against the raids of heavy German ships. Do nothing? Then the “pocket” battleships will arrange a real massacre on communications. Cover the convoys with old battleships, whose strength is enough to frighten away Scheer? And who can guarantee that the Germans are not attacking such a convoy "Bismarck" and "Tirpitz", which will playfully deal with a single British ship? Will the Grand Fleet's fast-moving battleships have time to intercept the German formation before they tear to shreds and the convoy and its escort ships?

It is known that Churchill assumed and was extremely afraid of the joint actions of the German battleships and attached great importance to the destruction of the Bismarck before the Tirpitz was commissioned.

Thus, we can state that, despite certain shortcomings, the German pocket battleships were quite successful ships capable of performing the tasks that the Krigsmarine had set before them. But why, then, did the Germans stop building them? The answer is very simple - according to the pre-war plans of the German industry, several squadrons of the most powerful battleships were to be built, which, of course, would need cruisers for protection. But the “pocket” battleship did not fit the role of a cruiser in a squadron at all - that's where his low speed was completely out of place. That is why the Germans returned to the idea of ​​a heavy cruiser, which appeared in their distant 1923 year, but this is completely different story...

And - a little note.

Of course, on the basis of their tactical and technical characteristics, “pocket” battleships cannot be assigned to the class of battleships. Where did the name “pocket” battleship come from? The fact is that, in accordance with the Washington 1922 Maritime Agreement, any ship that has a standard displacement above 10 000 tonnes or guns larger than 203 mm was considered a linkor. It's funny, but if the Germans would have preferred the 32 hub cruiser with 210-mm artillery to the “pickpockets”, from the point of view of international treaties, he would be just a linkor. Accordingly, according to the Washington agreement, Deutschland was also a linkor - well, a certain correspondent with a good sense of humor, given the small size of the German ship, added the epithet “pocket” to the “battleship” and this name stuck.

The Germans themselves never considered or called “Deutschland” and its sisterships battleships. In the German fleet, these ships were listed as "panzerschiffe", i.e. “Armored ship”, or “battleship”, unlike “Gneisenau” or “Bismarck”, which were called “schlachtschiffe”. In the Kaiser fleet, “panzerschiffe” was called armadillos, but the most modern of them were renamed “linienschiffe” - battleships, and the dreadnoughts were called “big battleships” or “großlinienschiffe”. Well, shortly before the war, kriegsmarine enrolled "pocket" battleships in the class of heavy cruisers.

List of used literature:
1. Donets A. Heavy York type cruisers.
2. Kofman V. "Pocket" battleships of the Fuhrer. Corsairs of the Third Reich.
3. Patyanin S. "Insolent" cruisers - raider hunters.
Our news channels

Subscribe and stay up to date with the latest news and the most important events of the day.

273 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. avt
    +11
    8 February 2018 15: 37
    morning morning. A slight swell easily sways His Majesty's ships on the ocean wave. Clear winter sky, visibility from horizon to horizon. The boredom of months-long patrols that even the smoke noticed by the Eygex observer could not dispel. How many neutral vehicles leisurely smoke the sky for their merchants?
    Suddenly, a message from Captain Bell: “I think this is a“ pocket ”battleship.”
    wassat
    You ... this ... You are that ... That "that"? Come on ... Come on ... Don't mess out ....
    bully I already decided -Oleg!
    So this is Associate Professor! Wow!
    bully Beautifully painted Andrew ,, Our answer to Chamberlain "
    Thus, the Germans turned out to be a ship capable of quickly destroying an enemy cruiser with the help of powerful artillery and SLA, and protected so as not to suffer heavy damage during such a battle. Given the fact that his diesel power plant provided him with a range of up to 20 000 miles, the “pocket” battleship became almost the ideal heavy artillery raider.
    The capabilities of which a particular Langdorf could not dispose of in a battle to which this unit itself, despite
    The "pocket" battleships had other, not so obvious flaws, but, in fact, which ship does not have them?
    I could not dispose. Which confirmed the outcome of the battle. Good article , good
    1. +4
      8 February 2018 15: 58
      Not Akilez but Achilles. But this is so by the way.
      1. +7
        8 February 2018 16: 05
        Quote: seti
        Not Akilez but Achilles

        It is hard to say. Those. it is clear that Achilles was meant, but a number of our authors give just such a transcription
        1. avt
          +1
          8 February 2018 16: 12
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Hard to say.

          ON aglitsky mov? Well, something like that. The same ,, Sopvich ", or ,, Svvit."
        2. +5
          8 February 2018 16: 13
          Thanks for your article. It should be noted that the Germans still took into account the Spee raid, and already Sheer was equipped with ammunition and fuel much better. And intelligence. Yes, and acted almost jointly (albeit not for long) with several auxiliary cruisers.
        3. 0
          12 February 2018 10: 30
          Andrew! Yours faithfully hi , Article 5 points, but nevertheless, “Ajax”, “Achilles” and “Exeter” have long been registered in Russian-language fiction, and in the description of this event also, so, feel Well, it hurts the ear. As if, reverse example: TCR "Prince Eugene"
      2. 0
        10 February 2018 17: 42
        In English, definitely, Akilez
    2. +8
      8 February 2018 17: 56
      Quote: avt
      I already decided -Oleg!

      Damn, the same feeling at first !!! Yes
      Quote: avt
      The capabilities of which a particular Langdorf could not dispose of in a battle to which this unit itself, despite
      The "pocket" battleships had other, not so obvious flaws, but, in fact, which ship does not have them?
      I could not dispose. Which confirmed the outcome of the battle.

      Which once again confirms that people are not fighting ships, but people! Yes
      Kaptsov forever manipulates digital, but here is an adequate article
      Quote: avt
      Beautifully painted Andrew ,, Our answer to Chamberlain "

      drinks
      1. avt
        +9
        8 February 2018 18: 12
        Quote: Rurikovich
        Which once again confirms that people are not fighting ships, but people!
        Kaptsov forever manipulates digital, but here is an adequate article

        Right now, we'll throw him a new topic ... both of them! bully But if you look with an armed eye. Then, in fact, such an oil picture emerges - the German admirals were preparing and not badly by the way for the war they had lost. Hence the surface raiders with a single voyage ala Emden and the diving submarines Dönitz originally from UV- 11 / UF c ,, wolf packs. "Despite the fact that the same" snorkel "was already known at all. Oleg would have objected - so drowned! Yes, and not sour so stoked, read the works. I will not argue - Britia almost put. HOWEVER ! The British naval commanders didn’t prepare for the last war at all, but fell into children's insanity, in the state of pre-World War I. They completely forgot how they escorted at the end of World War I how much manpower and equipment were needed. For which they paid with fierce blood and a mattress, and even bases in exchange for the old four-pipe ones. Surprisingly, it was only through brutal blood that tactically competent actions were established on the sea, multiplying by almost zero Dönitz, who never received the necessary equipment and was unable to work with dissimilar forces at all But why? Let the authors write and we will rejoice in reading. bully drinks
        1. +6
          8 February 2018 18: 55
          Quote: avt
          such an oil painting looms - the German admirals were preparing, and not badly by the way for the war that they had lost. Hence the surface raiders with a single voyage ala ,, Emden "and the diving submarines Dönitz originally from UV-11 / UF with wolf packs." Despite the fact that the same snorkel was already generally known.

          The Germans fleet certainly did not stand in the first place No. Therefore, even that which stood out had to be LITERALLY used. After the WWI, the Germans trivially took into account the experience and concluded that the British “lion” cannot be overwhelmed (the example of Jutland), because, as Andrei said, biting off a pie or a communications war. But the fleet corny became an unloved "child", because if things on land were reported successes, then there was nothing to boast about at sea. Given who the opponent is. And since the admirals themselves could not decide what was needed to fight England, this is why exactly what could seriously bring England to its knees (PL) was in small quantities and of unimportant quality. When it was understood and launched mass construction, the moment was missed, the allies had already managed to establish PLO.
          Quote: avt
          Oleg would object - so they drowned

          Drowned, but not enough. Yes
          Quote: avt
          The British "naval commanders" did not at all prepare for the past war, but fell into children's senility, into the state of pre-World War I.

          Winners are not judged feel
          Quote: avt
          But why? Let the authors write and we rejoice in reading.

          With two hands in favor fellow
          Povangyu - reveals that England believed that Germany, placed in tight limits and restrictions, would not be able to revive its fleet again, and carried away by political games on the continent, considered various kinds of hidden attempts of Germany to be insignificant. And Germany, although it took into account the experience of the WWII, did not take into account changes in the technical aspects. theoretically, one could try to put a noose around the neck of a British lion, but practically the means were smeared but for all classes of ships (admirals all need battleships) and the rope turned out to be weak. winked
    3. +9
      8 February 2018 19: 35
      Quote: avt
      I already decided -Oleg!

      Duc ... after a characteristic syllable of the first paragraphs, I, too, sinfully thought that I was seeing the third consecutive article on the Kansov Panzerschiffe. But as I read it, the anxious feeling let go. laughing
      1. +2
        8 February 2018 23: 23
        Quote: Alexey RA
        I thought that I was seeing the third consecutive article on the Panzerschiff from Kaptsov. But as I read it, the anxious feeling let go.

        On the contrary, as you read the surprise intensified. wassat I swear by thunder, until the very end of the article I was sure that Oleg went to a hat-trick, but something went wrong. laughing Well, Andrey! Well respected! hi good Although, now I recall that last time an article on the topic was promised.
  2. +1
    8 February 2018 16: 02
    But why, then, did the Germans stop their construction? The answer is very simple - according to the pre-war plans of German industry, it was necessary to create several squadrons of powerful battleships, which, of course, would need cruisers to guard.
    And yet - numerous "merchants" have done things in the destruction of communications more than "pickpockets". Cheap, affordable, mass. But really, not for long ...
    1. +6
      9 February 2018 10: 48
      The reason is known: Hitler - like everyone suffering from aggressive "leaderism" - "lifted the country from its knees" with inevitable adventurism.
      Perceiving successful tactical Anschlusses as "we are on the right track, comrades!"
      The result is Germany’s entry into the World War, being completely unprepared for it and with no chance to "get ready": the Germans simply did not have serious resources.
      It is clear that we were instilled with the myth of "the resources of conquered Europe" in order to justify the terrible defeat of the USSR of the 41st year, but this is not confirmed in any way.
      Therefore, the Germans did not have any opportunity to build a fleet that could equally withstand the British.
      Even the critical important completion of “Gr Zeppelin” was not carried out. But only its presence at Bismarck would fundamentally change the situation, excluding the maneuvering of the raider group blindly and fatally torpedoing the battleship with extremely imperfect Swordfish.
      It is well said: the weak side, entering the war, makes only one mistake - it enters into it!
      Everything else for her is inevitable and secondary.
      1. +1
        11 February 2018 09: 18
        Quote: nemoXX
        fatal torpedoing of a battleship by extremely imperfect Swordfish.

        In general, this is a consequence, not a reason. “Bismarck” interrupted the raiding already after the battle in the Danish Strait, when he got hits from the “Prince of Wells”, having received a trim on the nose and a fuel leak. Admiral Lutens decided to leave for repair in Saint Nazer.A after a nightly attack (not fatal) by Swordfish and Victories, when, as a result of active anti-torpedo maneuvers, the patches flew off, increasing the pitch and trim, Lutens reported a lack of fuel and the inability to shake off the pursuers. That is, the fate of Bismarck was already in fact solved.
        Quote: nemoXX
        Even the critical important completion of “Gr Zeppelin” was not carried out. But only his presence at Bismarck would fundamentally change the situation, excluding blind maneuvering of the raider group

        In my opinion, generally controversial statement! 1 - the tactics of the actions of the raider group in general is completely different from the actions of the AUG, not to mention how many additional supply vessels are needed for an aircraft carrier and its air group? This is not a raider group, but a whole squadron! 2 - Imagine a breakthrough to the Atlantic, when the connection is "at full speed" with the ability to join at any time in a short-lived artillery battle! What is there to do an aircraft carrier? Would your "Gr. Zeppelin" even launch one plane? Remind the fate of the British aircraft carrier Glories? Yes, he went without cover, but the Germans in the battle in the Danish Strait appeared in the role of game, which was hunted by the detachments of Holland and Tove (also with the aircraft carrier Victories), and to your Gr. Zeppelin "would have been enough for the Wake-Walker cruisers. Well, something like that! hi
        1. +2
          11 February 2018 11: 58
          Yeah ... "Swordfish" even at that time looked somewhat caricatured, although, oddly enough, it could not be denied effectiveness. However, at that moment the British had nothing else in this role, in my opinion ...
          An aircraft carrier as part of a raider group can be very useful ... But subject to several conditions. Ensuring its cover, the availability of secured points (mobile or stationary), refueling and replenishment (which applies equally to the rest of its companions) ... But, as you rightly noted, this will no longer be a raider operation ...
          Just that. If you hit pure theorizing on the verge of AI, then the presence of AB in the composition of this German compound did not at all mean the need for the aircraft carrier to participate in "fleet artillery combat." And he could also detect the cruiser in advance (if the weather allows) and simply hide behind himself in the distance behind his companions. Speed, besides, he had no less than that of cruisers, and in bad weather conditions even higher, if only because of the displacement. But Glories ... he had a cover, heroic, but not numerous. And then, "Charles" torpedo "caught" even from such cover. And the Englishman’s task was completely different, so reminding him of his fate in relation to the Danish Strait is not entirely correct, in my opinion. And the Germans were in the role of "game" (which is somewhat controversial at that time) thanks to the inveterate neutrals
          1. 0
            11 February 2018 12: 48
            The "past" war was fought by both England and Germany - battleships and cruisers.
            All - almost without anti-aircraft artillery. The first one to use torpedo bombers
            would defeat the enemy.


            In the classic war at sea, England won: more ships and more experience.
            A modern war was fought in the Pacific: America-Japan. Aircraft carriers.
            1. +1
              11 February 2018 15: 01
              The anti-aircraft support was that the Germans and the Britons were quite at the level of the theater of military operations in which they participated. And the Pacific Ocean is a separate "song". And those individual Britons were lost there - no doubt. There are examples in the early years ...
              "Classical war" is to Clausewitz.
              But, note that not only England
              1. +2
                11 February 2018 15: 32
                "Anti-aircraft support was that the Germans, that the British, quite at the level of those theater" ///

                That's just the point "at the level of those theater". When the ships almost did not attack from the air, but settled accounts according to the centuries-old fashion in art. duels.
                Compare with the American, which were studded with anti-aircraft weapons, like hedgehogs. And that didn’t help sad .
                1. +3
                  11 February 2018 15: 53
                  It seems to me, so, unobtrusively that they would become “hedgehogs” very quickly, if such a need arose ... 38 20mm assault rifles + 16 37mm (very good) + 14 105mm guns (this is on Scharnhorst) is quite acceptable. Especially considering the quality of German firing control systems ...
                  And the Americans ... The newest (at the time of the start of the mess on TO) LK had 20 127 mm (proved to be excellent) and ... "Chicago pianos" in the amount of 6 settings (in my opinion, if not 4). So here ... And they became hedgehogs much later, however. However, like Yap with Britons
                  1. +2
                    12 February 2018 11: 13
                    Quote: Irina Grafova
                    It seems to me, so, unobtrusively that they would become “hedgehogs” very quickly, if such a need arose ... 38 20mm assault rifles + 16 37mm (very good) + 14 105mm guns (this is on Scharnhorst) is quite acceptable. Especially considering the quality of German firing control systems ...

                    Heh heh heh ... very fast - This is not about the Germans. For 5 (five!) Years since the beginning of the war, they could not put a 37-mm machine gun on the ships, putting in place a paired semi-automatic machine of the type of the repeatedly cooled 21-K.

                    Despite the fact that the 37-mm MZA itself was available and mass-produced - but for the army and backlashes.
                    Quote: Irina Grafova
                    The newest (at the time of the start of the mess on TO) LK had 20 127mm (proved to be excellent) and ... "Chicago pianos" in the amount of 6 settings (in my opinion, if not 4).

                    This is at the post-Washington campers - they appeared on MOT only closer to the fall of 1942.
                    And on the Pacific air defense missile defense, at first it was limited to 8x127 / 25 (not even 5 "/ 38) and theoretically 4 "Chicago pianos". In practice, the 76 mm anti-aircraft guns were placed in the nests of the “piano”.
                    In July 1941, according to the experience of the war in Europe, the positions of the 127-mm anti-aircraft guns, on the recommendation of the Council of King, were equipped with anti-fragmentation shields around the guns, but not on the guns themselves. The Council also recommended strengthening light anti-aircraft weapons by installing 4 new 28-mm automatic weapons, but since their deliveries were delayed, it was decided to install 4 76 mm guns as a temporary measure: two on the sides of the nose superstructure, instead of a pair of 127 mm mine weapons in open installations, and 2 more closer to the stern.
                    © Mandel / Skoptsov. Line ships of the United States of America. Part II Battleships of the "New York", "Oklahoma" and "Pennsylvania" types.
                    So, oddly enough, but in 1939-1942, all the warring countries had the same air defense of ships at approximately the same level. Even the Navy of the USSR. smile
                    And in the second half of 1942, the USA finally completed work on the overhaul of the design and documentation of "bofors" and "erlikons" for conveyor production (the phrases "drilled after assembly in place" or "modify after assembly by a file "- ecstasy of mass production technologists smile ) And from that time on, the United States and limes went ahead of the air defense of ships.
            2. 0
              11 February 2018 17: 26
              Quote: voyaka uh
              A modern war was fought in the Pacific: America-Japan. Aircraft carriers.

              After the battle at Midway Atoll in 1942, before that, the “overseas” admirals also relied on the general battle of the linear fleets. “Battle of aircraft carriers”, where the opponents did not even come close for visual contact and artillery fire, so she forced to reconsider all the plans and make the corresponding findings.
              1. +1
                13 February 2018 07: 43
                After the Coral Sea, more precisely ...
                In the plans for the Battle of Midway, the Americans assigned artillery ships only the role of covering aircraft carriers. And, as you know, because LK Pai were already on the west coast. Americans quickly realized that their old and slow-moving LCs would be a burden for AB, and therefore the escort consisted of KR and EM
            3. +2
              12 February 2018 11: 25
              Quote: voyaka uh
              The "past" war was fought by both England and Germany - battleships and cruisers.

              England waged a war according to an already inter-war concept - AB damages, LC catch up and finish off. More precisely, she tried to lead - because the torpedo bombers she had had difficulty catching the enemy’s LC.
              By the way, don’t you remind me - who was the first to strike carrier-based aircraft at LC at the enemy’s base? wink
              Quote: voyaka uh
              All - almost without anti-aircraft artillery.

              For 1939-1942, no one had a normal FOR. More precisely, SZA was. But MZA - no.
              And during this period, the limes with their four- and eight-barrel pom-poms with power drives were a cut above the Yankees, who had a huge hole in the air defense of ships between 127 mm / 76 mm anti-aircraft guns and 12,7 mm machine guns, which should be closed there was practically nothing. For the “Chicago pianos” weren’t even enough for LK, the Erlikons produced only 07.12.41 pieces by December 379, 1942, and the “bofors” were brought to mind on the Chrysler until the second half of XNUMX.
              1. 0
                12 February 2018 15: 17
                Are you talking about a strike on Italians from seaplanes?
                (I - from memory, I wonder, got it?)
                Thanks for the details about the anti-aircraft guns in the fleets.
                drinks belay
                1. 0
                  12 February 2018 15: 24
                  Quote: voyaka uh
                  Are you talking about a strike on Italians from seaplanes?

                  This is me about the 1940 Taranto.
                  Given the correlation of the result (3 LCs are damaged, 2 of them are restored, one is not) and the quality and quantity of forces involved (two dozen “Avosek”) - it would be no better than in PX. "Avoski" rule! smile
                  1. +1
                    13 February 2018 20: 35
                    The prototypes of Avosek taxied on the maneuvers of the 19th year, sort of like ...

                    Alexey, you will excuse me, but I very rarely use reference books and all sorts of "-pedia", therefore I can be mistaken. Calculation of memory, mainly. And systematic education ...
              2. +1
                13 February 2018 21: 09
                Not only Britons had similar concepts ...
                As for the number of produced machines, just not in the know
          2. 0
            11 February 2018 17: 17
            Quote: Irina Grafova
            Just that. If you hit pure theorizing on the verge of AI, then the presence of AB in the composition of this German compound did not at all mean the need for the aircraft carrier to participate in "fleet artillery combat." And he could also detect the cruiser in advance (if the weather allows) and simply hide behind himself in the distance behind his companions

            Maybe so, but ... Too much in those conditions was “BUT.” Why did I give an example of “Glories.” Why didn’t he conduct air reconnaissance? To start the planes, in those conditions he would have to change course due to the direction of the wind . The escort did not have a heavy artillery ship, so the Germans were able to approach and calmly shoot the Glories, and the very first damage to the flight deck turns the aircraft carrier into a huge floating target without the possibility of a retaliatory strike. Now imagine a hypothetical aircraft carrier in the German compound. The task is how you can it’s faster to slip through the Danish Strait, the narrowness of which (ice and British minefields) greatly impeded the freedom of maneuver. And if the weather conditions are such that in order to launch an air group it would be necessary to deploy the AB to a different course? Would the Germans go to that? They were at that time (passing the strait ) already had fire contact with the Wake-Walker cruisers and were well aware that they were "game." And any delay, deviation from the course, delay, will inevitably lead to the disruption of the operation. Further, again acting at a distance, AB could not hide behind satellites, would inevitably be hit again by either the British cruisers, or any of the groups (Holland, Tove) sent to intercept the Germans. And the Germans would either have to break through as lucky , or take a "general" battle in the narrowness of the Danish Strait. Where geography and weather conditions would greatly affect the use of the air group. Which again puts the hypothetical AV Germans in the "Glories" position. Well, something like that.
            Quote: Irina Grafova
            And the Germans were in the role of "game" (which is somewhat controversial at that time) thanks to the inveterate neutrals

            Yes, inveterate neutrals .. laughing Well, after leaving Grimstad Fjord, they were already “game”, in the tracks of which flocks of “hounds” rushed. At any moment, a meeting with any of the interception groups could occur. In short, all these “breakthroughs into the Atlantic”, as you read, are a complete adventure some, at random, and luck! hi
            1. +1
              11 February 2018 23: 02
              Zeppelin’s project catapults were foreseen. Though hydraulic (!), But greatly reduced its dependence in terms of aircraft lifting on the direction and strength of the wind ... So only the sea waves could prevent the use of an air group. Yes, and AB itself could run away ... But this is from the field of AI, which is like a swamp ...
              But in real life it turns out that, of course, the Germans were expected. And not only there. Having found out - "big uncles" would be induced. The cast of “Bismarck” and “Eugen” on the communications of the Allies (for all the significance of the communications themselves) was a notorious adventure with worthless means ... They simply (Germans) could not “hang” on them for the necessary time. But a one-time “raid” didn’t solve anything ... Which once again brings the boats of the pickpocket concept to the first place.
              So you are right about adventurism (with some success, but exceptions confirm the rules) for all German breakthroughs
              1. 0
                12 February 2018 06: 41
                Quote: Irina Grafova
                greatly reduced its dependence in terms of aircraft lifting on the direction and strength of the wind

                In addition to the lateral one. And also fogs, snow charges .... and so on. It was not for nothing that I constantly pointed out both the geography (even rather hydrology) of the Danish Strait and the weather. But you are right, all this is from the realm of fantasy Yes
                Quote: Irina Grafova
                Which once again brings the boats of the pickpocket concept to the first place.
                So you are right about adventurism (with some success, but exceptions confirm the rules) for all German breakthroughs

                Pure water adventurism! With gigantic material costs, what are the results? Well, yes, more ideological than material. In general, the very concept of raiding surface ships was initially flawed. Only unlimited submarine warfare yielded some results. And with a surface fleet Germany somehow did not work out .... Well, I think so. hi
                1. 0
                  12 February 2018 10: 46
                  "In general, the concept of raiding surface ships was initially flawed"
                  Admirals are preparing for past wars. In WWI, raiding by surface ships still somehow rolled, but with the development of communications and detection to WWII, the chances of success became minimal, and radar for submarines brought them to zero.
                2. +1
                  12 February 2018 19: 49
                  She was by no means "defective." And until the Germans began to stamp the submarines, this concept worked even very well. Because, as I have already pointed out, it is not the number of "merchants" sunk, but the consequences of the very fact of the presence of raiders in the seas and oceans
          3. 0
            12 February 2018 10: 53
            Quote: Irina Grafova
            Yeah ... "Swordfish" even at that time looked somewhat caricatured, although, oddly enough, it could not be denied effectiveness. However, at that moment the British had nothing else in this role, in my opinion ...

            At the beginning of 1941 they already had the Albacores - 2 squadrons on the Formideable. However, horseradish radish is not sweeter...
            The biggest problem of both biplanes was that, as practice has shown, they did not quite fit into the concept of using AB RN. Everything looked beautiful on paper: since the British LK cannot catch up with the post-Washington and even the modernized Washington, then let's attach the connection to the LK AB. Then it will be possible first to “slow down” the enemy - torpedo bombers with AB, - and then the British LC slowly and slowly go down the mountain... smile
            In practice, it turned out that if the enemy escapes from the British compound, holding him on the aft KU, and the wind is on the contrary, then a string bag or an albacore (with a suspended torpedo) catch him with great difficulty. And even reaching the optimal KU for an attack is generally something of a fantasy.
        2. 0
          13 February 2018 09: 48
          1) Bismarck ATTEMPTED to interrupt the raiding. What they didn’t give him: the torpedo hit from the Swordfish, which jammed the steering wheels, became fatal. The hypothetical Zeppelin air group, which would be attached to Bismarck, would in principle change the scenario. Constant aerial reconnaissance would rule out a sudden appearance of the enemy, fighters — they wouldn’t let them attack with airborne torpedoes, and airborne “pieces” would disable Viktories himself.
          2) What do you have against breaking into the Atlantic AUG instead of a raider group?
          “When the connection is in full swing” - airborne reconnaissance at the rate excludes the unexpected “fleeting artillery battle at any (!) Moment”.
          But, it becomes possible a sudden attack of the enemy Yu-87 "at any moment" fell out of the clouds.
          Isn’t a victory at sea worth organizing the supply of the AUG with an additional pair of supply vessels? Jet fuel and bombs for 30-40 aircraft - this is not the supply of tank armies.
          Glories is an unsuccessful and unique example. Therefore - there is simply no analogy to it.
          1. +1
            15 February 2018 03: 59
            You are right in everything. Just excluding some points. Namely...
            The first (and most important) - we all run the risk of landing in a "puddle" of AI ...
            The second - if we get out of the above-mentioned “puddle”, then we risk (once again) to get into another “puddle” ... That is, comparing the supplies of the tank group (or the army of your choice) with the supply of such a group of NK in the ocean - these are two VERY big differences. And the point here is not the volume and needs of supply, but the matter is the problem of delivering this allowance to the object ...
            Purely hypothetically (it was smooth on paper, but forgot about the ravines) - yes, you can do something similar, dashing, fix ... But practice is a criterion ... But because we have what we have ... Bismarck at the bottom that is, half of the German fleet of the "big uncles". Did the loss of the Hood greatly affect the state of the fleet of the Metropolis? The "king has a lot." The Führer has little ... That’s the whole answer ... If Bismarck had managed to get to Brest, it would have meant nothing but a couple of sleepless nights at the planning department of Royal Navi. That company in Brest was not, at least in some composition, raiders, alas ... And, even, they did not pull much on the role of “fleet in bing”, because they were constantly under supervision. Yes, a break through the English Channel was a huge spit in the direction of the Britons, but what in the end? The Germans from one mousetrap fell into another - just ...
            The hypothetical appearance of “Bismarck” in Norway after passing through the “channel” to the company to the “sistership” strained the Britons to the limit, but they also had reserves. Both own and American ...
            Therefore, let's do without AI, goodies?
      2. 0
        12 February 2018 20: 58
        It’s kind of clever you wrote ... but completely - complete nonsense!
        Germany entered WWII unprepared ?? So unprepared that she defeated the Polish army in 2 weeks, and this was an equal army for them. France with its allies in 5 weeks. Organized the full-scale involvement of almost all of Europe in the war with us. you at least google the number of troops from the Poles, French, Hungarians, Italians, Romanians, Spaniards and others who attacked us on June 22. Everyone would be so unprepared! am Under 350 million mob. potential + industry from the Pyrenees to our border. I’ll tell you a secret - the whole military industry of Europe plowed non-stop on the 3rd Reich right up to the 45th year !! Bad fucking. Well, judging by your flag, are you obscured? In a saucepan, download, supporting the brothers? There are no facts - you are a provocateur !!
        1. +1
          13 February 2018 07: 51
          Do you ever write something - read later what you wrote. This is useful...
          Germany began WWII quite prepared, no doubt, But then you started to say something funny
        2. +1
          28 February 2018 12: 02
          But you wrote, it seems, even stupid!
          Because, before challenging the obvious, you need to know a minimum of Facts.
          The victory over Poland and France - Germany was least of all achieved by superiority in resources ... which, naturally, did not exist.
          "Organized the full-scale involvement of almost all of Europe in the war with us?" at "350 million mob. potential + industry from the Pyrenees to our border"?
          So, finally take an interest in what exactly the "readiness" of Hitler that shocked you on 22.06.41 was expressed!
          Less than 4 thousand light tankettes, partly harshly called "medium tanks", about the same number of aircraft and 2.1 million soldiers in the 1st echelon.
          And all this - against 25 thousand tanks (including real medium and heavy, NOT including more than 2,5 thousand cannon BAs), about 20 thousand aircraft and 5 million people in 3 echelons of the "unprepared (defend the Motherland!)" USSR.
          Which, due to the policy of the "native (you) party" entered the war, having received a blow fatal for any country, a little smaller in size and resources.
          And being "unprepared" who suffered a military rout, which has no analogues in History - the USSR captured half of Europe.
          And with Hitler's "ready for war" gasoline for tanks ran out already near Moscow.
          And there were about 1 thousand tanks left ... What prevented him from using the incredible resources with which you are trying to "strengthen" the Wehrmacht for the production of not 1400 (pieces!) Tigers, but at least 14 thousand?
          Guderian asked for 1 thousand tanks to capture Moscow ... and he would have taken it!
          But he got EVERYTHING that Hitler had in the "strategic reserve" - ​​300 tank engines. And he didn’t take Moscow ...
          Romanians counted with Italians?
          How many tanks did the Romanians strengthen Hitler?
          What could the Romanians and Hungarians (the blow fell on them) - AT ALL who did not have anti-tank weapons - oppose the tank avalanche that hit them near Stalingrad?
          The Italians also contributed, having shot down 200 Soviet aircraft near Stalingrad, at the cost of losing 230 of their own. And this is for the whole war on the eastern front!
          This is cool ... especially, in comparison with 100 thousand Soviet aircraft produced in the USSR during the war years.
          What are the strategic sources of copper, aluminum, tungsten, manganese, molybdenum, rubber, vanadium, etc., necessary for waging war in the 20th century and received - according to your imagination - Hitler in Europe!
          Regarding oil: the maximum amount of oil received by the Reich in the years 2MB (Romania, Hungary and a little Austria) is 5 million tons, with a demand of 20 million tons.
          True, the USSR ally, which dragged Hitler into the war, helped a lot ... until May, the 41st Guderian tanks drove much more energized with Soviet fuel than after without it.
          As for your slander, which I accidentally and belatedly discovered - I inform you of my disrespect: the genes of the scammer and informer in your blood - do not pick a finger!
      3. 0
        12 February 2018 21: 06
        Dear forum users, pay attention - nemo20 is a vile provocateur who deliberately distort historical facts, and attracting his inventions to an article that does not apply to these facts! His inventions and insinuations simply humiliate our Victory in WWII and naturally WWII !! I propose to ban him, for it is impermissible to slander! am
        1. +1
          28 February 2018 11: 23
          If you have nothing to answer in essence, except "today he plays jazz, and tomorrow he will sell his homeland", then keep in mind - the certificate of honor for informers does not shine for you!
          Time is not right.
          Therefore, pull up your inventions and insinuations among your own kind under the portrait of Stalin.
          But do not get personal!
      4. 0
        13 February 2018 13: 54
        She becomes strong only after victory. Do not write nonsense.
  3. +6
    8 February 2018 16: 25
    The boredom of months-long patrols that even the smoke noticed by the Eygex observer could not dispel ..

    The "pocket" battleship by this time had completely lost its last seaplane, so it was forced to determine the next victims for raiding by touch. I felt for the cruiser and two destroyers, and, with joy, I cut the diesels to the full, so as not to give them time to unleash their boilers. Diesels from such treatment at first smoke a lot. And he pulled for a reason. Destroyers - this means an escort. Those. somewhere nearby there was supposed to be a whole bunch of greasy English transports with a serious load.
  4. +3
    8 February 2018 16: 35
    It will be interesting to read Kaptsov's comments ..)
    Although perhaps he will respond with a new article ..)
    1. +5
      9 February 2018 02: 05
      Kaptsov now almost does not comment. Poisoned the poor man. Crushed by mass and intelligence.
      1. +1
        9 February 2018 09: 07
        Sorry .. When seven on one - unsportsmanlike ..
        What I agree with him - the armor is needed.
    2. +3
      10 February 2018 11: 41
      As far as I managed to understand, he prefers not to get involved in the discussion. I wrote an article, intentionally, accidentally or out of ignorance, made several mistakes, inaccuracies, or simply logical inconsistencies - and to the side ... He sits, looks and rejoices as the rest of the public breaks his spear around his opus
  5. +7
    8 February 2018 16: 50
    Bravo Andrey! - Absolutely brilliant article of 5 ***** stars!
    Thus, we can state that in spite of certain shortcomings, the German pocket battleships were quite successful ships capable of completing the tasks that the kriegsmarine leadership set before them.
    - I fully share your opinion, it is confirmed by British sources - all the seriousness with which the British fleet reacted to the actions of the Deutschland class raiders.

    With the right Spee tactics, Harwood's ships were doomed.
    .
    Here I have doubts, because according to some information that I met, by the time the battle ended, the ammunition consumption of the main caliber Count Spee amounted to 75%.
    That is the threshold when you should get out of combat contact. But you still had to cross the Atlantic and replenish BC.
    Although perhaps he could replenish the BC from the supply vessel (Altmark (German: Altmark)).
    1. +12
      8 February 2018 17: 01
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      Here I have doubts, because according to some information that I met, by the time the battle ended, the ammunition consumption of the main caliber Count Spee amounted to 75%.

      So this is the end of the battle :)))) And adhere to the appropriate tactics of Langsdorf - by the middle of the battle all three British cruisers were already at the bottom, thereby saving at least a quarter of the ammunition laughing And yes, of course, the ship itself drinks
      1. +1
        8 February 2018 17: 13
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        So this is the end of the battle :)))) And adhere to the appropriate tactics of Langsdorf - by the middle of the battle all three British cruisers were already at the bottom, thereby saving at least a quarter of the ammunition And yes, of course, the ship itself


        Oh, we weren’t there to argue like that - I strongly doubt that no one dared to suggest a change of tactics to the commander, seeing his "inadequate" behavior associated with concussion and wounding - the German fleet did not have primative reverence between senior officers, they would definitely indicate obvious miscalculations.
        It's not so simple.
        Nevertheless, it seems to me - it is the exhaustion of the BC Civil Code that explains a lot here.
        I did not find anywhere information how much ammunition was thrown into the empty after the damage to the OMS.
      2. +2
        8 February 2018 17: 25
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        So this is the end of the battle :))))


        Are you sure that by the beginning of the battle there was 100% HA in the cellars?
        Let's just say - it was the expenditure of 75% BC BC - that determined the end of the battle by the raider.
        25% - this is the minimum balance - which is saved for return and breakthrough - since Altmark was a tanker and hardly carried ammunition for the main caliber.
        1. +9
          8 February 2018 19: 20
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          Let's just say - it was the expenditure of 75% BC BC - that determined the end of the battle by the raider.

          The important thing is not this, but the fact that Langsdorf did not conduct the battle as it was necessary. Those. there is no logical chain "Spee stopped the battle because he used up shells" and there is "Spee spent the mass of ammunition to no avail because of the incompetent leadership of his commander"
          In order to incapacitate Exeter, 7 volleys were needed, the third gave cover, which means that from the fourth they switched to six-gun volleys - a total of 39 shells. Just as much was needed to destroy Exeter. Instead, yawing began from side to side, the separation of tower fire, the transfer from one target to another as a result - the expenditure of a huge amount of ammunition without result. This is a consequence of Langsdorf’s tactics, not the reason for Spee’s defeat in battle.
          1. +1
            9 February 2018 10: 22
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The important thing is not this, but the fact that Langsdorf did not conduct the battle as it was necessary. Those. there is no logical chain "Spee stopped the battle because he used up shells" and there is "Spee spent the mass of ammunition to no avail because of the incompetent leadership of his commander"


            This is a very bold statement - for a person who judges a fight only by documents and evidence.

            I do not agree.
            Refer to the well-known pattern that you bring - the beginning of the battle
            with Exeter 06:14 (separation of the group of cruisers)
            Covering after 10 minutes TKr Exeter - occurred almost without maneuvering - hence the high accuracy of Spee fire.
            An active battle with Exeter lasts about 40 minutes - Exeter shoots fullboard (not too sharp course angles) - it’s not difficult to shoot at it (it shows an almost full Spee board). Hence the maximum efficiency of the raider fire.


            It is necessary to delve into the mutual position and courses of the ships relative to each other, from where the logic of the decisions of Langsdorf and the commanders Ajax and Achilles comes from.
            I studied their actions from the point of view of British commanders and German sources.
            The following should be considered here:

            1. Light cruisers - smaller targets with much better maneuverability than TKr.
            And it seems that, logically, a smaller number of shells is required for sinking, but getting at such a distance is much more problematic than in the TKr.
            In addition, LKR competently preferred to stay on sharp heading angles - minimally substituting the side - and this is a very difficult goal when the target area is reduced by several times.
            It is useless to approach LKR - having an advantage in speed - they will “tear” the distance with a smaller circulation radius and will always show a smaller projection area of ​​the case, in addition, Exeter will leave.

            2. Do not fire ILKr - do not force maneuver under fire - this is extremely unreasonable - therefore, dividing fire - into Exeter and LKR - is the only way to minimize hits on the raider - so that the spread of fire is not only justified - it is extremely reasonable - competently. Like hiding behind a smoke screen from their fire.
            Maneuver.

            3. Your remark, dear Andrei, that it was necessary to first sink the Exeter - it says that you can’t imagine the real combat situation - the battered Exeter turned 180 from the raider - leaving the battle and did not constitute a threat, and Ajax and Achilles sat tightly on following the course, developing intense artillery fire, inflicting damage - precisely in order to save Exeter. But which goal is more important for the raider?
            The one that no longer carries a threat - "shows poop", but with which you need to get close and finish off or or the one that is intensively shelling you (LKr)?

            Langsdorf changes course to catch-up after Exeter - he shows the minimum projection of the hull (which has a minimum of hits at that moment of the battle), he cannot quickly get close to Exeter (the course is catch-up - the approach is slow), while Ajax and Achilles aggressively sit on the stern corners, showering actively with shells.

            Splitting the main caliber fire is the only competent solution in this situation.

            And here is why Langsdorf believes that he does not have enough ammunition to finish Exeter and fight with LKR - there is not enough information.
            Perhaps some part of the BC was spent on artillery exercises - although they are usually called rangefinders.

            .
            1. 0
              12 February 2018 00: 29
              By the way, it was the light cruisers that the British achieved a spectacular victory over the German pocket battleships in the so-called “New Year's battle” on December 31, 1942. Russian "Anglophobes" do not like to remember this fight (meaning Royal navy smile ) But according to his result, Hitler fired Admiral Raeder and ordered in haste to disband the surface fleet of the 3rd Reich in general.
              1. +3
                12 February 2018 06: 20
                Quote: voyaka uh
                By the way, it was the light cruisers that the British achieved a spectacular victory over the German pocket battleships in the so-called "New Year's battle"

                And I was thinking - when will they remember the “New Year's fight”? :)))))
                In fact, the history of this battle is a very specific thing, in any case, the British did not win any pocket battleship - they both sat on Hipper, after which Kummetz fled.
                1. 0
                  12 February 2018 13: 01
                  I expected from you a description of this brilliant strategic victory of the British.
                  Strategic - because after it the German fleet generally ceased to glow in the ocean.
                  But did not wait. sad
                  1. 0
                    12 February 2018 15: 29
                    Quote: voyaka uh
                    Strategic - because after it the German fleet generally ceased to glow in the ocean.

                    It turns out that under the next New Year, "DoY" drowned a ghost? And the landing on Svalbard also staged ghosts.
                    Since the German fleet generally ceased to glow in the ocean... smile
                    1. 0
                      12 February 2018 15: 33
                      Well, I went too far, maleho. recourse
                      But only in the far north did they try to scare the British and Russians.
                      Without much success.
                      1. +1
                        12 February 2018 15: 50
                        Quote: voyaka uh
                        But only in the far north did they try to scare the British and Russians.

                        And where could the Germans in 1943 still be able to fight surface ships at sea?
                        Central Atlantic? So there, whatever the outcome of the “New Year’s battle”, in 1943 it’s already dangerous to go even with the Tirpitz squadron — they will devour it. Full coverage with basic aviation + escort AV - and you can forget about stealth. There are no problems with striking forces either: a pair of LC and AB in Scapa Flow, 1-2 LC in Reykjavik, and 5-6 LC and AB off the coast of the USA (combat training course) make any trip to US-Britain communications an adventure on the verge of suicide . This is not to mention the German submarines, which can plant a torpedo in the SMU along any long silhouette. smile
                      2. +1
                        12 February 2018 17: 04
                        Quote: voyaka uh
                        Well, I went too far, maleho.

                        Nichos, just a little bit request
                        Quote: voyaka uh
                        I expected from you a description of this brilliant strategic victory of the British.

                        Maybe I’ll take it, only somehow it’s not seen either brilliant or strategic :) The British, certainly well done, who climbed to fight - they were lucky (getting into Hipper at the U-turn), the Germans, as always, got scared and fled.
              2. 0
                12 February 2018 09: 22
                In the New Year’s battle - there was an artillery battle between Hipper and escort destroyers, in the second half - Hipper came under the concentrated fire of light cruisers - which successfully set fire to the TKr and slowed it down. Luttsov all this time did not see the enemy and did not participate in the battle.
                1. 0
                  12 February 2018 12: 58
                  The same could happen in the case of Spee.
                  While he smashed Exeter, he himself could be “laid up” at ease
                  two English light cruisers. That's why commander Spee
                  and carefully "glanced along the lines", not too carried away by the unlucky Exeter.
                  1. 0
                    13 February 2018 12: 24
                    Quote: voyaka uh
                    The same could happen in the case of Spee.
                    While he smashed Exeter, he himself could be “laid up” at ease
                    two English light cruisers. That's why commander Spee
                    and carefully "glanced along the lines", not too carried away by the unlucky Exeter.


                    Unfortunately, the motive for his decisions in that battle, Langsdorf took with him.
                    But there is a description from the British commanders. The winners advanced their version of the battle - a chain of supposedly slurred decisions.
                    Which some authors adhere to.

                    My opinion is that despite the superior forces, the British could not defeat the raider (slow down or damage critical elements and nodes of the raider), although they inflicted heavy damage on his crew, moreover, they almost lost TKr, defended it from drowning - no doubt professional and courageous crews LKr Ajax and Yahiles. But they could not prevent Graf Spee from leaving the battle.
                    Moreover - LKR could not prevent the raider from breaking through the neutral port in any way, and if they had drawn closer to a distance of 4-5 miles, they would have been defeated.
                    The sinking of Count Spee is largely a merit of intelligence and misinformation.
          2. +1
            9 February 2018 13: 46
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Just as much was needed to destroy Exeter.


            You are a big dreamer Andrey. These are not exercises where the result is calculated from holes in the target canvas. Exeter changed course and eventually 180 and left the battlefield.
            Langsdorf had to turn around in pursuit of Exeter and at the same time Ajax and Achilles actively sat on him - trying to save Exeter.
            In addition, while they were shooting at one of LKR - the second one was freely firing - they only shot, LKR began to maneuver and shoot down the sight, but the second LKR did not shoot down at that time and very accurately shot - which is why Langsdorf also had to maneuver and put in a smoke curtain.

            You obviously don't understand that fight.
            1. +5
              9 February 2018 14: 56
              Quote: DimerVladimer
              You are a big dreamer Andrey.

              Wow!:)))
              Quote: DimerVladimer
              Refer to the well-known pattern that you bring - the beginning of the battle

              I turned, and you?
              Quote: DimerVladimer
              Light cruisers are smaller targets with much better maneuverability than TKr.

              Sorry, but - nonsense, from the word "full". What is the general size of the place here, especially since they are very similar in light and heavy cruisers? By the way, even taking your point of view, the light cruiser is a MORE COMFORTABLE goal, since it is corny longer than heavy - by as much as 5 meters :)))) or do you think that the fact that Ajax and Achilles is already Xeta centimeters Exeter makes them more challenging goal?
              A light cruiser is no more difficult target than a heavy one; naval combat is never a word of warship.
              By the way, you probably can easily turn the turning radii, if you are talking so easily about a "less maneuverable" heavy cruiser?
              Quote: DimerVladimer
              target area decreases significantly

              No, you’re definitely judging by the word of warships. Yes, where does the area? at those distances - 6-10 miles the ship is the point at which the projectile ellipse must be “pointed”, by the way, it is elongated along the projectile’s flight path, so in fact with the view of the statistics it doesn’t matter whether it’s sideways or under angle.
              That is, for shooting, you need to know the VIR, VIP - THIS IS ALL, because the rest of the ship’s geometry doesn’t affect it anymore - well, except for ships that are different in size
              Quote: DimerVladimer
              Your remark, dear Andrey, that you had to first sink the Exeter - it means that you can’t imagine the real combat situation - the battered Exeter turned to 180 from the raider

              Please take a look at the diagram. After getting into Exeter and before turning it took more than 15 minutes, during which the cruiser went almost in a straight line. Am I in vain in an article posted an import scheme with notes where the ships were at the time of Spee’s turn? I’m wondering, you are sending me to the scheme, but you yourself did not bother to read it. Is that so?
              Quote: DimerVladimer
              Splitting the main caliber fire is the only competent solution in this situation.

              I highly recommend some textbook on naval tactics of the 30's. I can send Goncharov if you want. Splitting fire of the main caliber NEVER can be a competent decision. These are shells to the wind. Honestly, I thought that such basics you know
              1. +2
                9 February 2018 16: 20
                No, you’re definitely judging by the word of warships.

                I would ask! laughing In WoWs, the cruiser stands on board with the drum, or with the stern, how large the target area is (in fact, it starts to play a role only when meeting with destroyers - there is less chance of hitting there even with coverings), the main thing is to choose the right lead, the rest of the dispersion ellipse will do for you. Maybe it’s true that I can give a “clean” cover without hitting, but you can get a good one ... I personally have complaints about shooting in this game, but not on this part - everything is quite plausible, as far as I can tell. So DimerVladimer is definitely not guided by WoWs Yes
                1. +1
                  9 February 2018 16: 51
                  But there KRL is nimble (well ... except for Kirov laughing )
                  1. 0
                    9 February 2018 17: 23
                    And with larger-caliber guns, the dispersion is noticeably greater over long distances than with the 150-203mm wassat
                    1. +3
                      9 February 2018 17: 41
                      Quote: arturpraetor
                      And for larger-caliber guns, the dispersion is noticeably greater over long distances than for the 150-203m

                      I take my word for it, I'm still a beginner :)))
                      1. 0
                        9 February 2018 18: 09
                        Yes, I haven’t played much yet either)) But I quit playing on battleships precisely because of the stupidity with scatter: cruisers shoot much more accurately and more closely than battleships, while battleships shoot much less often. They did so to the detriment of “balance”, but because of this, on a battleship any miss becomes critical. And in my last but one battle on Kaiser there were only “clean” coverings without a single hit - random, but it bombed ... So it bombed that we chatted only yesterday bully
                    2. 0
                      9 February 2018 20: 45
                      Well, this is in the game, but in reality it's the other way around.
                      1. +2
                        9 February 2018 21: 07
                        Therefore and wassat I am familiar with the basics of marine ballistics, because 305-mm curves and ultra-precise 150-mm are ... Outrage.
              2. +1
                12 February 2018 11: 44
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                No, you’re definitely judging by the word of warships


                winked This fight, I dismantled every minute, probably 10 years ago, when there was still no mention of WOW (in which I still periodically drop by the nickname Dimer74).
                It was my passion for artillery and the novels of Port Arthur and Tsushima - read at the age of 13 that brought me to the maritime theme.
                I came to ballistics at a specialized faculty, considering the trajectories of far from artillery shells - an order of magnitude more complicated (accurate to the third decimal place :) for objects with an atmospheric and extra-atmospheric trajectory profile.
                So the dispersion ellipse is concrete formulas for me.

                And a couple of years ago - I passed the navigation and driving, so I have the right to control the ship up to 25 m in the internal water area and sea routes - I can drive a yacht or a tug;))

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                A light cruiser is no more difficult target than a heavy one; naval combat is never a word of warship.


                Of course, the assumptions in the WOW are different: the dispersion ellipse is smaller (especially for 150 mm guns over long distances), the probability of hitting it is an order of magnitude higher than the real ones - otherwise it would not be possible to keep the audience :)).
                However, oddly enough, the basic "laws" of ballistics are correct.

                If the ship goes from you or to you at an acute angle, the probability of getting at close range (and in the battle with Spee with Ajaxm and Achilles it changed from 8 to 4 miles) will decrease in proportion to the area.

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                I highly recommend some textbook on naval tactics of the 30's. I can send Goncharov if you want. Splitting fire of the main caliber NEVER can be a competent decision. These are shells to the wind. Honestly, I thought that such basics you know


                Yes - such basics are familiar to me.
                It is also known that if you do not fire at the ship, then it does not change course and conduct much more accurate fire. In the Jutland battle, battlecruisers periodically rolled out of service when they fell under cover - including knocking down the sight of their gunners - this is the price of avoiding damage.

                And what did you do in Langsdorf's place?
                If you turn around on LKr - they will cover themselves with smoke, perhaps carry out a torpedo attack (this risk should always be considered) and under cover of smoke the curtains will tear the distance (pay attention to 07:26 when the battle distance became minimal and LKR covered with smoke) and increased the distance. Then Exeter will definitely leave.
                The logical decision was to catch up with Exeter by shelling it with the front tower, and the stern - to shoot down the course of the LKR, but there were two of them - one dodged - at that time the other shot. Both British commanders acted extremely professionally and calmly. Without stopping the pursuit of the raider, which ultimately led to the cost overrun of HE shells on Spee.

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                By the way, even taking your point of view, the light cruiser is a MORE COMFORTABLE goal, since it is corny longer than heavy - by as much as 5 meters :)))) or do you believe that the fact that Ajax and Achilles is already 70 centimeters already Exeter makes them more challenging goal?

                So much so that they were initially mistaken for destroyers - the silhouette is smaller.
                to scale.
              3. 0
                13 February 2018 15: 24
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Splitting fire of the main caliber NEVER can be a competent decision. These are shells to the wind. Honestly, I thought that such basics you know


                Here you are wrong, I will only give a discussion of the projects of the German battlecruisers and a discussion of the composition of the main caliber artillery in 1908.
                On April 23, 1907, the Secretary of State, Admiral von Tirpitz, verbally stated that the 1908 cruiser should be larger than the 1907 cruiser.
                The Navy Construction Department convened a meeting to respond to this declaration, and on May 2, 1907, provided a response. At first it was stated that a budget of about 44 million marks allocated for the 1908 cruiser allowed the ship to be armed with eight 30,5 cm guns, but although the battleships of 1908 should have at least 30,5 cm guns, conditions for large cruisers differ, and 28 cm guns are enough against foreign warships. Since the battle often has to be fought against superior enemy forces, it’s more important to increase the number of trunks in order to be able to fire on multiple targets. The design department proposed to increase the number of guns to twelve, leave the protection level with the cruiser of 1907, and set the maximum speed to at least 24½ knots.

                What you consider to be an “unwise decision” is discussed in the project of the battlecruiser by experts of the highest level - to lay the possibility of separate firing on several targets at the same time.
                Separation of fire for several purposes - a necessary necessity in a collision with superior forces, it was in this situation that Count Spee found himself.
                1. 0
                  14 February 2018 10: 28
                  Quote: DimerVladimer
                  Separation of fire for several purposes - a necessary necessity in a collision with superior forces, it was in this situation that Count Spee found himself.

                  Moreover, the British themselves decided that Spee divided the main caliber fire for different purposes, i.e. They considered such a step on the part of the Germans quite possible, and they themselves just achieved this. Those. sharing fire is bad, but sometimes it’s necessary.
                  But nevertheless, to give an example of the reality of 1907 is somewhat reckless.
              4. +1
                15 February 2018 09: 30
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Am I, in vain, in the article laid out the import scheme with notes where the ships were at the time of the Spee turn? I’m wondering, you are sending me to the scheme, but you yourself did not bother to read it. Is that so?


                You have posted the English scheme - which is not consistent with German sources.
              5. +1
                15 February 2018 09: 35
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                By the way, you probably can easily turn the turning radii, if you are talking so easily about a "less maneuverable" heavy cruiser?


                Around 6.31, “Count Spee” quickly gave 3 coverings on “Ajax”. The British used individual maneuvering, changing course each time in the direction of the fall of the previous volley of the enemy. The method of "hunting for volleys" gave good results at long distances at a high speed of evasion, since within 30 seconds of the projectile’s flight the target could go 2 to 3 kb to the side, and the “correct” fire correction led to a miss.
              6. +1
                15 February 2018 09: 42
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Please take a look at the diagram. After getting into Exeter and before turning it took more than 15 minutes, during which the cruiser went almost in a straight line. Am I in vain in an article posted an import scheme with notes where the ships were at the time of Spee’s turn? I’m wondering, you are sending me to the scheme, but you yourself did not bother to read it. Is that so?


                The English diagram shows two turns: one in the interval from 6.22 to 6.25 90 ° to the left, then the second, almost the same on the other side (completed by 6.28). Hearwood notes that Spee’s fire at that time was divided: the aft tower was firing at Exeter, and the bow was firing at the light cruisers, which was denied by the “battleship” artillery, claiming that the 280-mm guns always fired centrally at one goals. Modern German sources show an even deeper turn; in the book of Koop and Schmolke, he is depicted as a figure eight, that is, for some time the ship allegedly laid down in the opposite direction.
                In any case, the English scheme (generally more detailed) is very poorly consistent with the course angles: it follows that from the moment of opening the fire and before turning at 6.22, the Spee could only shoot at the Exeter from the bow tower, which does not correspond to the facts.
                The successful shooting of the Germans at 6.20 - 6.25 can hardly testify in favor of any significant U-turns at this time. The apparent division of the GK fire is most likely due to the alternation of volleys of turrets for shooting at a new target.


                The article and assessment of Langsdorf’s actions are based on the English scheme (as more detailed), but which does not correspond to the real maneuver of the raider.

                It is difficult to judge how true this is after almost 60 years, but at about the same time (from 6.22 to 6.24) the “Count Spee” began turning to the left, turning right side to the light cruisers bypassing him from the nose, which had already gained 25 knots. In fact, the maneuvering of the "pocket battleship" in the initial period of the battle is the subject of the greatest discrepancies in the descriptions. In accordance with the crude scheme sketched by German officers from memory after the flooding of their ship, the ship turned very smoothly 90 ° to the left for 10 minutes and headed towards the north. At the beginning of the turn (around 6.25, that is, immediately after getting to Exeter’s tower “B”) he transferred the main gun’s fire to the light cruisers (distance of about 85 kb). Eyewitnesses from the “pocket battleship” and German staff officers, including Admiral Kranke, insist that he did not make any sharp maneuvers at this time.


                https://flot.com/news/dayinhistory/?ELEMENT_ID=42
                92
    2. +1
      8 February 2018 17: 05
      Although it is unlikely that the "Altmark" was ammunition.
      Here is the Northmak supply vessel providing operations to Admiral Scheer - he already certainly carried the BC in the holds.
      Theodore Cranke

      Johan Brenneke

      POCKET LINKOR

      "Admiral Scheer in the Atlantic"

      When the sailors of the Sheer boarded the Nordmark, it became obvious to them a lot of what used to seem a mystery: for example, why did they, sweating and cursing him at what the light was, carry these sacks of potatoes - now they’ve appreciated this. By the way, the Nordmark was armed, and not bad. It was equipped with 15-cm guns, which could be hidden from prying eyes, if necessary, under folding boards, as well as 2-cm anti-aircraft guns, ready for any attack from the air.

      Nordmark was not always called like that. Until 1939, his name was Westerwald in the Navy. It was built at the Shihau shipyard in Danzig, and he developed a speed of up to 21 knots, that is, he could furnish almost any auxiliary cruiser who would have thought to catch him. At the same time, for ships without powerful weapons, he posed a rather serious danger and could show his teeth if the situation required it.

      In addition to the cargo of 12 tons of fuel and other petroleum products, the Nordmark also had special refrigerators for deteriorating products and pantries for canned goods, spare parts and ammunition. In the cellar cellars reigned a special order. Each shell was packed in a separate box and stored in such a way that no pitching or vibration could affect it, in addition, the cellars were equipped with an ingenious system of rails, switches and elevators, which provided access to it from any direction. Now this system was acceleratingly extracting 367 kg shells for Sheer heavy guns from the Shell shells and lifting them onto the deck for delivery to the cellars of a pocket battleship. The transfer of food and ammunition lasted all night, the sailors passed shell after shell over the shell into the ready-made boats, which jumped up and down in the waves and set sail after loading, and then, under the side of the battleship, the actions unfolded in the opposite order: the shells were laid out on carts and they drove to the hatches, where they were taken and strong hands were put inside. The rest was done by elevators.

      http://www.e-reading.club/bookreader.php/1003413/
      Brenneke_Yohan _-_ Karmannyy_linkor._Admiral_Sheer_
      v_Atlantike.html
      1. +6
        8 February 2018 17: 13
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        Now this system acceleratedly extracted 813-kilogram shells

        Well, here the author bent almost three times :))))
        1. +3
          8 February 2018 17: 19
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Well, here the author bent almost three times :))))

          Perhaps the total weight of the "shot" is indicated, taking into account the projectile, propellant charge and packaging - a translation error is possible. :)
          1. +4
            8 February 2018 19: 21
            300 kg shell + 189 kg charge + 324 kg packaging ?!
            1. +2
              8 February 2018 19: 30
              There is half-guilty, plus one-fourth of the charge weight in the cap, of course there’s no talk about any packaging weighing 324 kg
              1. +2
                8 February 2018 20: 50
                Quote: Kibb
                There is half-guilty, plus one fourth of the charge weight in the cap

                True, and all this just weighs 189 kg. Total main cartridge weight
    3. +3
      8 February 2018 18: 27
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      Here I have doubts, because according to some information that I met, by the time the battle ended, the ammunition consumption of the main caliber Count Spee amounted to 75%.

      According to Kofman:
      In addition, the commander believed that he had too little ammunition left. (This is fundamentally wrong, since only 414 HA shells, 377 150 mm and 80 anti-aircraft 105 mm shells were used up.) More than a third of 280 mm and about half of 150 mm ammunition remained at the disposal of the gunners.

      And from him - about some of the subtle points in picking BC pickpockets:
      The strength of the adopted system was at the same time its weakness, since it was not easy to choose the right ratio between the different types of shells. Following the path of least resistance, fleet specialists included in the standard ammunition, comprising from 315 to 360 shells per turret (105 - 120 per barrel), an equal number of ammunition of each type. Therefore, during a long battle with the enemy’s ships, the most preferable type of shells quickly dried up, and they had to fire not quite suitable for the situation.
      1. 0
        9 February 2018 11: 15
        Quote: Alexey RA
        In addition, the commander believed that he had too little ammunition left. (This is fundamentally wrong, since only 414 HA shells, 377 150 mm and 80 anti-aircraft 105 mm shells were used up.) More than a third of 280 mm and about half of 150 mm ammunition remained at the disposal of the gunners.


        This is based on the assumption that by the beginning of the battle the ammunition of the main group is 100%.
        And who counted him? I am worried about blurry data in the form: "more than a third ..."
        By that time, the raider was conducting artillery exercises, firing warning shots with medium and possibly main caliber?
        It would be wrong to assume that the BC GK was 100% staffed by the time of the battle.
        Maybe 97% or 90% - not sure, but definitely not 100%.
        In addition, if we assume that on Spee the composition of the BC GK is 50% high-explosive and 50% armor-piercing, then the battle with Exeter required a higher consumption of high-explosive shells.
        Correspondingly, for the battle with LKR there remained basically a set of armor-piercing shells - giving much fewer fragments - less damage with indirect hits (close gaps) - which was not very effective in the battle with LCR.
  6. +2
    8 February 2018 17: 19
    Somehow somehow all the pickpockets remembered sharply - it’s fun to see such coincidences regularly on the Internet laughing On a nearby resource, just the other day, the prospects of the confrontation between the pickpockets and the most advanced heavy cruisers of Italians and French (Algeri and Zara) were briefly discussed. Although the conversation there was generally on a slightly different topic - whose pledged seven heavy cruisers were theoretically more powerful, and the Germans (3 pickpockets and 4 Hippers) each, the Italians (4 Zary, Bolzano) laid seven each. and 2 "Trento") and the French (2 "Ducheni", 4 "Suffren" and "Algeri"). The Germans, because of the 283-mm caliber of the “pickpockets,” are more powerful, but not everyone agreed with this ...
    1. +6
      8 February 2018 19: 22
      Quote: arturpraetor
      Something somehow sharply all the "pickpockets" remembered

      This is my answer to Oleg's articles about the dangers of pocket battleships and the benefits of Japanese TCR :))))
  7. 0
    8 February 2018 17: 20
    Well written.
    There was not a single reason preventing the Scheer
    Ashipka.
  8. 0
    8 February 2018 18: 04
    + + + + + + + + + +
  9. +2
    8 February 2018 18: 09
    I read somewhere that the Germans themselves called them battleships-sawn-off shotguns
    1. +3
      8 February 2018 19: 23
      Is it only in conversations - but not in documents
    2. 0
      9 February 2018 16: 30
      Quote: DimanC
      I read somewhere that the Germans themselves called them battleships-sawn-off shotguns


      In literature and documents usually write Panzerschiff-battleship. Somewhere there are references that from about 1942 or 1943 of the year they began to be considered heavy cruisers.
      1. 0
        9 February 2018 16: 32
        Quote: NF68
        Quote: DimanC
        I read somewhere that the Germans themselves called them battleships-sawn-off shotguns


        In literature and documents usually write Panzerschiff-battleship. Somewhere there are references that from about 1942 or 1943 of the year they began to be considered heavy cruisers.


        I was wrong. In the winter of the 1939 / 1940's they were considered heavy cruisers.
  10. +1
    8 February 2018 18: 13
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: DimerVladimer
    Here I have doubts, because according to some information that I met, by the time the battle ended, the ammunition consumption of the main caliber Count Spee amounted to 75%.

    So this is the end of the battle :)))) And adhere to the appropriate tactics of Langsdorf - by the middle of the battle all three British cruisers were already at the bottom, thereby saving at least a quarter of the ammunition laughing And yes, of course, the ship itself drinks

    Especially considering the fact that Langsdorf himself for some reason went on a rapprochement, and then suddenly remembered that he was still a raider and he did not need a direct fight - it did not add up wink
  11. +4
    8 February 2018 18: 18
    Bravo, Andrey Nikolaevich! good drinks hi
    I’ll only add from myself that it was not Admiral Count Spee who lost the battle, but Hans Langsdorf, who, for reasons known only to him, did not use all the capabilities of the ship.
    On their own, ships of the Deutschland type turned out to be very good, given their limitations on displacement and the capabilities of German industry. A number of technically innovative moments made it possible to squeeze the maximum out of what is possible in order to obtain acceptable characteristics. Yes, the ship turned out to be unbalanced in terms of armament-defense, but it is still a cruiser with its own tasks. And the reservation was more or less able to withstand the armament of the alleged opponents.
    It is not perfect, but where did you see the perfect ships? A man polishes a diamond to get a diamond. Langsdorf did not cope with this. Because he shot himself request
    Bravo again hi
    1. +5
      8 February 2018 19: 24
      Quote: Rurikovich
      I’ll just add that I didn’t lose the battle, “Admiral Count Spee,” but Hans Langsdorf

      That's right! drinks
  12. +3
    8 February 2018 18: 31
    And by the way, since the shooting of the English is considered so unsuccessful - who then inflicted damage to Spee, which called into question the continuation of cruising? smile
    Graf Spee: 36 dead, 60 wounded. Seventeen 6 inch hits causing minor damage, two 8 inch hits in nonvulnerable areas below armor deck, but oil purification and desalination plants destroyed, all kitchens wrecked. Ammunition stocks very low.

    Desalination is a yok. Galleys - yok. Fuel purification system - yok.
    1. +5
      8 February 2018 19: 25
      Quote: Alexey RA
      And by the way, since the shooting of the British is considered so unsuccessful

      She was unsuccessful in the first minutes of the battle, when Spee prevailed. Well and then - yes, the British really managed to hurt something. So who made Langsdorf drag out the fight? :))))
      1. 0
        9 February 2018 12: 50
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        She was unsuccessful in the first minutes of the battle, when Spee prevailed. Well and then - yes, the British really managed to hurt something. So who made Langsdorf drag out the fight? :))))


        And he couldn’t finish it with the sinking of all the ships - Exeter left him 180 degrees from the battle and still had to be caught up with him.
        And Ajax and Achilles sat on their tail and shot well enough, which forced them to introduce a stern tower against them - to force them to maneuver.
        In general, the actions of the commanders Ajax and Acheles in this battle are beyond praise - they successfully maneuvered, forcing the raider to throw the BK for nothing and fired well, not allowing to kill Exeter - they aggressively fought.
        Highly professionally disposed of the available capabilities of their teams and ships.
      2. 0
        9 February 2018 12: 56
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        So who made Langsdorf drag out the fight? :))))

        In theory, the British themselves could drag out the battle if they wanted to. Either wait for the night, or reinforcements.
  13. +1
    8 February 2018 19: 00
    I had the impression before, but this article only strengthened it that the “gloomy Teutonic genius” was still quite down to earth. Pocket battleships were created for the period of battles “now”, under the technical specifications of the opponents of the past war. Taking into account the experience of the First World War, the Germans designed the ship, ready to sink the "classmates" - contemporaries in incredible quantities and flee from the battleships of the past war. For this, a 280 mm main caliber and a 27-node stroke were enough. But the Teutons did not bother with prospects. After all, the appearance a little later than high-speed battleships brought their “pickpockets” out of the brackets of marine life. Neither the admirals nor the designers did not foresee this. This down-to-earth way of thinking, apparently, was characteristic of the Kaiser school’s pets, because such ships didn’t appear in other fleets during the inter-war period, and Japanese cruisers like the Mogami would still be good in our time.
    1. +1
      8 February 2018 19: 37
      Quote: DARK
      But the Teutons did not bother with prospects. After all, the appearance a little later than high-speed battleships brought their “pickpockets” out of the brackets of marine life.

      Nuuuu, so this is a problem of all time and many countries Yes Sometimes ships become obsolete on slipways request
      Quote: DARK
      and Japanese Mogami-class cruisers would be good these days.

      Do not idealize. The Mogami were good, but not perfect. They are the same victims of restrictions as the Deutschlands.
      Quote: DARK
      This down-to-earth way of thinking, apparently, was characteristic of the pets of the Kaiser school, because such ships did not appear in other fleets during the inter-war period,

      Other countries stupidly followed Washington, the Germans didn’t sign it, but created a ship based on Versailles - restrictions for the largest at 10000 tons and a main gun in 280 mm. So we got the "Deutschlands", which were designed for certain functions. They very much answered these functions. And to understand what it is, try "Mogami" mines to spend wink"Mogami" was created to destroy himself like. And so, “Spee” was supposed to raider. And the fact that he lost the battle at La Plata is not a Spee problem, but Langsdorf’s request For his design conditions assumed the destruction of those ships with which he met ... hi
      1. +1
        8 February 2018 22: 15
        I do not agree.
        Pocket battleships were created, now I’ll say a terrible thing, exactly the way how all German and Slavic BATTLE things were created - tailored for a specific purpose. Whatever the time.
        It was necessary to catch up with the merchant, and drown him with a couple of volleys. Performed.
        If the cruiser catches up with us, a light one is desirable. then we drown him - four volleys.
        But if we get to ticks, such as Huud and Prince York, with a couple of aircraft carriers at the back, then nothing is clear. From the word AT ALL. Either we drown Huuda with a second salvo, then all destroyers shoot at us. And one disconnect torpedo ruins such a good ship .... for an ordinary skiff can cope with a piece of iron without a move - it moors and hangs explosives on the sides.
        The British always built CLASSIC ships. Combat - so fighting, merchant - means pot-bellied. We saw that special ships, firstly, are more expensive. Secondly, losing them at exorbitant prices is obtained.
        But will we use ... Poseidon knows.
        And all business.
        1. 0
          9 February 2018 12: 52
          Quote: Bashibuzuk
          It was necessary to catch up with the merchant, and drown him with a couple of volleys. Performed.


          Merchants were drowned by subversive charges - the main caliber was practically not used.
  14. +2
    8 February 2018 19: 09
    Damn, at first I thought that the author was Oleg Kaptsov. Well, you give Andrey, it’s not easier from hour to hour - the impression is that the old VO is being revived - the old authors still remained - I won’t list, well, Kaptsov who “joined” them, where would it be without him)))
  15. +2
    8 February 2018 19: 37
    Ajax and Achilles. What terrible Agex Akilez?
    1. +7
      8 February 2018 20: 52
      Quote: Usher
      What terrible Agex Akilez?

      Yes, they already got me here when, instead of the unreadable British names of the ships, I gave a domestic translation, and demanded that I always write the English transcription. So I write ...
      1. +5
        8 February 2018 21: 00
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        always wrote english transcription

        "Et you hurried!" (Prince of Miloslavsky). I think, uv. Rurikovich, advocating the purity of pronunciation in the material about "cats", and did not imagine what kind of storm would unfold with this transcription / transliteration. laughing In addition, the issue is debatable, some of the names “voiced in the forehead” (“Rinaun”, “Ripals”, “Eugen” (Eugen, actually)) are read and perceived quite well that way, all kinds of “Indomiterables” are already more complicated, although there is a certain charm also present. But here's “Agex” - regardless of the quality of the article - this is already beyond good and evil (a joke of humor!). wassat
        1. +2
          8 February 2018 21: 40
          Quote: Raphael_83
          In addition, the issue is controversial

          Well, uv. Rafael_83, you can’t be a little pregnant wink
          It’s interesting how you would perceive if an Englishman approached you and said: “Oh, Russian, I saw your Bright frigate in Istanbul yesterday! I think the view you have, if you don’t know English, will be like this - belay
          But he meant .... "sharp-witted" wink
          So the "Princess Royal" is the "Princess Royal" and not the "Royal Princess" hi
      2. +2
        8 February 2018 21: 20
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Yes, I’ve already gotten into it

        belay what
        Am I already in the plural ??? wink
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        and they demanded that I always write an English transcription.

        Recommended wink
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        So I write ...

        That's right Yes drinks hi
        1. +3
          9 February 2018 10: 51
          Quote: Rurikovich
          Am I already in the plural ???

          Duc ... Rurikovich is.
          By the grace of God, we, the most blessed and sovereign great sovereign ... smile
      3. +2
        9 February 2018 13: 09
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        demanded that I always write an English transcription

        It is easier then to immediately write in English the name, in Latin letters. Only issue the translation in brackets once, so that the uninvolved have the opportunity to at least somehow figure it out. Transcription will produce entities or even lead to confusion.
    2. +3
      8 February 2018 21: 15
      Quote: Usher
      Ajax and Achilles. What a terrible Agex Akilez

      All over the world, it is customary to transcribe the names of ships in the original language, but with the letters of the alphabet of the language of the country into which it is translated, but with the pronunciation preserved Yes Therefore, according to the rules of "Ajax", although it implies "Ajax", it is still written in Russian letters in English pronunciation as "Agex". That's why the British say "Krasnii Kavkaz" instead of "Red Kavkaz" hi
      1. +1
        8 February 2018 21: 24
        Quote: Rurikovich
        That's why the British say "Krasnii Kavkaz" instead of "Red Kavkaz"

        Yeah, they write and speak with an indescribable accent by Arnie (well, where the "hooligans" are, you understand). laughing
        So you are right and for example "Aegis" is really universally (both linguisticly correct and sonorous) transcribed as IJIS. Yes But ... the eye still hurts. recourse
        1. +2
          8 February 2018 21: 46
          Quote: Raphael_83
          But ... the eye still hurts.

          Then put on “glasses” consisting of the words “Rules are rules”, and then, raising your right hand up, exhale and indifference sharply lower it down wink
          And the soul will be so good .... fellow drinks hi
          1. +1
            8 February 2018 21: 58
            Quote: Rurikovich
            But he meant .... "sharp-witted"

            Wow wow, easy one! I thought Bright is dazzling! So misteranderstanding almost came out of the blue with a beating face and a bellie incident. recourse Your truth turns out. drinks belay
            Quote: Rurikovich
            Then wear "glasses" consisting of the words "Rules are rules"

            I knew that with educated people it is better not to engage in polemics and in general ... not to show off - I’ll be smarter looking, all other things being equal ... crying Still, school exams "automatically" without genuine respect for the subject are a terrible evil - everything is forgotten in n-twenty years.
            1. +1
              8 February 2018 22: 15
              Well, I said all this with humor smile
              Although all the same, there are rules. wink For if the Englishman is in the subject, then he, though distorting words and stuttering, but will say some thread “Sharp” or “Smart”, but it will become clear to everyone who you are talking about Yes drinks hi
              1. +1
                8 February 2018 22: 22
                It is clear that with humor, who argues! I did not think the offense for all the good versus the bad to portray. laughing
                As for the rules, I will not argue because "rules are rules" are obvious matter. In general, I am grateful for the civilized dialogue and I propose to complete this discussion so that the discussion of the material by uv. Andrei is completely into a non-core theological (Ugh! Linguistic! Linguistic, so that he) disputes do not turn. winked
                From SW. hi Yes
                1. +1
                  8 February 2018 22: 25
                  Quote: Raphael_83
                  With uv. hi yes

                  Comprehensively agree fellow hi
                2. +2
                  8 February 2018 22: 34
                  Strongly [b] [/ b] disagree. Categorically.
                  There are such rules, there are other rules.
                  And there are still rules - ease of pronunciation and understanding. Especially significant for languages ​​where there are a lot of hissing and twisting sounds ... supposedly Slavic.
                  Ripablik - pah, and grind. It is a completely Slavonic word.
                  And here Isaacs ..... does not fit into any framework ... Ajax - that's all.
                  Elexis .... what is this for? - Achilles, okazstso .... although by all the rules of transcription, you should read - Eihileksis.
                  So .... you see - you read, they understand .. as in German. The most that.
                  1. +2
                    10 February 2018 08: 56
                    Quote: Bashibuzuk
                    from Isaacs ..... does not fit into any framework ... Ajax - that's all.

                    Oh my god! laughing Who makes you speak differently than you want? belay
                    We have freedom - as you like, so translate Yes
                    They just talked about things that were universally accepted through examples. Like to say "Unbending" or "Princess Royal" - please laughing
                    Business then. Only then do not say “Achilles” (sorry, “Eihileksis”), but “Achilles”, if translated into Russian. But do not forget about the pronunciation in the original language wink
  16. +1
    8 February 2018 20: 21
    Oh, upset! I already thought Oleg to a new round of fascinating and literally attractive (albeit rigidly disputed, if not booed) graphomania came out, but here it is like ... "Fraudsters! Cheated!" (A. Trushkin) crying
    And if in essence, then we can clearly see how the eternal naval force and frond (justified among the midshipmen, who have a "childhood", but not the command) come into conflict with common sense with the subsequent "concussion" of the responsible person and the ensuing consequences. Mmmda ... A good example of the role of the individual in history (how many of them were).
    From SW. hi
    PS
    To be honest, “pickpockets” remind me (only by analogy!) Of light “handbrakes” based on conventional automatic machines, but in this case it is a “re-cruiser and short-tracker”. Although similar and other technically complex and bulky cross-classes of ships had their own niche, much rested precisely on the methodology of tactics, operations, supplies, etc., and the literacy of the combined use of these factors.
    PPS
    Achilles (Achilles) and Ajax (small or large - “this is Comrade Lieutenant General damn knows him,” Vorontsov “Odyssey leaves Ithaca”)! SW Andrei, it has already been said - why break the language, if there are quite authentic localizations in the native, great and mighty; besides, we are talking about what kind of heroes of the epos, in whose honor these "boxes" were named, and which, again, in Russian are completely "callous". stop
    1. +2
      10 February 2018 11: 59
      But Zvyagintsev died ... crying
      1. 0
        13 February 2018 18: 08
        Quote: Irina Grafova
        But Zvyagintsev died ...

        Yes, in the 16th. So I did not get the chance to read his whole epic, I don’t even know: did he manage to finish it or left without putting an end to it. request
        1. +2
          13 February 2018 21: 53
          Alas, they didn’t. Last, he co-authored with Gennady Khazanov (what?) ... The book is called "Para Bellum". It is very readable, like all its previous ones. Maybe a little out of the marine component, which does not negate his talent. I have it all. And really respect. Because he climbed into AI without agitation, but with the justification that now it is very rare ... Let the man rest in peace. I’ll go and take 150 grams ...
  17. +1
    8 February 2018 21: 13
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    The important thing is not this, but the fact that Langsdorf did not conduct the battle as it was necessary. Those. there is no logical chain "Spee stopped the battle because he used up shells" and there is "Spee spent the mass of ammunition to no avail because of the incompetent leadership of his commander"

    Quite right - in this battle there is no logical chain - at first the Germans could not identify the enemy, then Langsdorf began to reduce the distance (why reduce the distance if he has much larger guns, but in smaller numbers? And at the same time he is a raider?), And eliminating a heavy cruiser (well, which is not what, but heavy) from the battle began to flee from two weak KRL who shot at him until the last. Indeed, there is no logic in this battle at all. It’s just that the Germans were lucky to hit the Exeter tower with a land mine, followed by sweeping the bridge with fragments. Well, if you remember, Harwood also did not show himself as an admiral
    1. +1
      8 February 2018 21: 53
      Quote: Kibb
      It’s just that the Germans were lucky to hit the Exeter tower with a land mine, followed by sweeping the bridge with fragments.

      Well, people, due to their limitations of thinking, call all of God's intentions accidents what
      By the way, Lutyens’s actions are copied, as it were, from the actions of Langsdorf. Therefore, all the same, is it not better to assume that the German admirals really had Jutland’s syndrome at the subconscious level (that the British cannot be defeated) and coupled with restrictions from above (not to risk it); from this came the unrealized capabilities of the ships. request
      1. 0
        9 February 2018 09: 18
        Yes, I agree. In fact, most of the accidents in the war is a pattern that we do not see, but there are also "golden bullets"
        1. +1
          10 February 2018 12: 01
          Unfortunately, the "golden bullets" are not amenable to accounting in the light of the challenges ahead ...
  18. +1
    8 February 2018 21: 19
    Substantively. Plusanul
  19. +2
    8 February 2018 22: 00
    Great article. Brilliant.
    I, unlike the White Karkharodon, almost immediately realized that this was not Kaptsov. Phrase building is not that. Russian construction, not aggressive there.
    What did not like ..... the name of the English cruisers. It is clearly visible, even in the clumsy transmission of Russian names in English letters - Achilles and Ajax. No, for some reason they focus on hard-to-understand Eijenjax.
    Although even the style of action of the cruisers shows that this is HODOKI. Almost White. But terribly fast and daring, sabaki .... like all the English, from the time of Kipling.
    The second - the battle pattern - was not impressive. Nothing is clear at all. What kind of croc is someone who painted, and why?
    Even on the basis of this scheme, the divergent circulation of Graf_f_Sh ... suggests itself, but, unfortunately, we do not see any control of the battle by the commander, or any good actions at all. In addition to the fast-footed English runners. Those are generally cool at Spee's stern.
    Well, in principle, it’s clear that Langsdorf, simply, made a mistake on the bridge, shocked the poor fellow, so he couldn’t fight. And all the other "shtafirki", seeing that the commander was alive, but incompetent, did not hit finger to finger - the Germans, damn it, the highest race. Ass licking.
    Letech English, perched on a tower, the last .... and he put it on his commander. Sam, I suppose, what a baron. Or REAL military.
    And the Germans .... merged. Stupidly, incomprehensibly, hopelessly.
    That's why Langsdorf had to shoot, too. Soon.
    ...
    And what would be the battle ..... be the commander and officers on G-von-Sh Russian. Kroshevo and dismemberment.
  20. +2
    8 February 2018 23: 25
    Andrey, BRAVO! And, traditionally, thanks! hi
  21. +1
    8 February 2018 23: 42
    Thank you for the article! I read it in one go!
  22. +3
    9 February 2018 00: 22
    Thanks for the article, Andrew! Very informative and generally tasty.

    You know, from what I read about this story in different sources, I had the opinion that Harwood was not just hanging around the mouth of La Plata, but, having counted the actions of von Langsdorf, he was specifically waiting for him in this place.

    Now about the so-called "golden pool". Only one 205-mm shell from the Exeter pierced the armor belt of the Count Spee, but he damaged the fuel supply and the diesel could use only a tank where the fuel remained for 16 hours. It was impossible to repair it on our own. Well, and what kind of return home could there be?
    As for von Langsdorf ... Karl von Müller was also wounded during the battle and his ship also died ...
    But the Emden commander didn’t shoot because of that, and they remember them differently.

    Write more Andrew. Please the soul. hi
  23. +3
    9 February 2018 00: 36
    Quote: Bashibuzuk

    And what would be the battle ..... be the commander and officers on G-von-Sh Russian. Kroshevo and dismemberment.

    Dear Comrade Bashibuzuk, if it’s easy for you, please name some battle of the ships with RUSSIAN commanders and officers. I mean the battle in the First, or in the Second World War, the battle, which would end with the "crumble and dismemberment" of the adversary.
    About re-spitting shells between the “Empress” and “Goeben” is not necessary, about the heroic battle of “Glory” in Moonsund too. There is no need to remember the Russian-Japanese war, let's talk about the first and second world war.

    We are waiting. bully
    1. +2
      10 February 2018 09: 17
      I can not help but support!
      In the light of the "mass heroism" of the USSR Navy, which contrived not to sink a single large warship of the enemy since 1919, contemptuous criticism of Langsdorf and Harwood (and in general, whoever it was!) Should be held back.
      But, start to study carefully.
  24. 0
    9 February 2018 00: 36
    Did the British have a radar? What prevented them from increasing their distance to the horizon and the Spee jaws until the next heavy cruiser came up? Ammunition consumption over long distances is large, especially if the target also maneuvers. As I understand it, the main caliber of “Spee” never hit the KRL. Actually, not one of the pocket battleships was seen in victories over warships. One auxiliary cruiser was sunk for three and everything seems to be.
    1. +1
      10 February 2018 12: 06
      Hit ...
      In addition, these boats were not intended for battle. Their task was different. Even, let's say, the opposite
      1. 0
        11 February 2018 17: 28
        For any warship, the main task is to fight!
        1. +1
          11 February 2018 23: 57
          So they fought ... Only the term "fight" implies not only (and not so much) the physical extermination of the adversary ... Is not it?
  25. 0
    9 February 2018 02: 00
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: seti
    Not Akilez but Achilles

    It is hard to say. Those. it is clear that Achilles was meant, but a number of our authors give just such a transcription

    Ajax and Achilles, no options. Greek names given in transcription from English is crazy. If with Prince Eugen, it is still somehow understandable and motivated, but you need to distinguish between Germans and Italians, then in this case it's like Porsche called Porsche. In principle, it is possible, but in certain circles you will come up with a nerd :)
  26. +1
    9 February 2018 08: 08
    The author is uniquely five points per article good hi
  27. 0
    9 February 2018 10: 15
    battleships and cruisers a few minutes of use
  28. +3
    9 February 2018 11: 21
    "Everyone imagines himself a strategist, seeing the battle from the side"!
    I don't think Langsdorf was a bad commander.
    Try it yourself, even wearing a bulletproof vest, to fight with 3 evil men!
    Especially, with those who, after receiving your strongest blow to the face - having barked blood and spitting out their teeth - go stupidly at you and beat you very painfully in response ... moreover, from 2 sides.
    And the British at sea - just like that!
    Some of the author’s conclusions have long been argued and argued.
    Even drown Langsdorf “Exeter” - he would have been doomed: an attempt to break away from the “Ajax” and “Achilles” at high speed would have led to a shortage of fuel, and they would not have drowned themselves, clutching his tail at a safe distance for themselves .
    Of course, screaming heart-rendingly on the radio and convening the entire surrounding British fleet to finish off the wounded animal.
    But Langsdorf’s decision to get closer to the Exeter group can hardly be considered correct.
    With energetic departure from it - long-range 280-mm guns would have an advantage over the 203-mm British, firing at the enemy from unattainable distances for him, and faster light cruisers - could not hinder Spee without the risk of suicide, catching up with him.
    Well, to overestimate the British “disu”, which convinced the Germans that “Rinaun on the way” - in general, is impossible.
    Again, the damaged Spee had to go to Argentina, much more friendly to Germany ...
    1. 0
      9 February 2018 12: 09
      And at the same time, one should not forget that Langsdorf conducted a long and relatively effective raid, and it is rather difficult to determine from the side what was happening in his head - the psychological load was quite strong.
    2. +1
      9 February 2018 13: 00
      Quote: nemoXX
      Even drown Langsdorf “Exeter” - he would have been doomed: an attempt to break away from the “Ajax” and “Achilles” at high speed would have led to a shortage of fuel, and they would not have drowned themselves, clutching his tail at a safe distance for themselves .


      Andrei does not understand this - as if for him a naval battle, this is when the enemy puts the side at a favorable distance for you - nothing like that - LKR goes on the attack showing a minimal projection at sharp heading angles. When the raider tries to board him in order to reduce the distance, he will launch a torpedo attack and put in a smoke screen and break the distance again, taking advantage of the speed advantage.
      And by that time, the raider had exhausted the supply of high-explosive shells - and there was little use for armor-piercing shells.
      1. +3
        9 February 2018 23: 10
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        nothing like this - LCR goes on the attack showing a minimal projection on sharp heading angles. When trying to raider to board him to reduce the distance -

        Here you are mistaken. Longitudinal fire gives a high probability of impact. It was recalled above that the scattering ellipse is very elongated. Here the "minimum projection" will provide the maximum coverage area, the KRL will directly fit entirely into this cover ellipse.
        1. 0
          15 February 2018 18: 10
          If the ship will stand. He is not mistaken in this, this is not a game. For a moving target such as a ship, the probable point of impact in constantly moves in two planes, and the ellipse does not play any role - the ratio of the length of the ship to the width is too small when firing at long distances.
          1. 0
            15 February 2018 22: 47
            At 100 kb, the median deviation is about 50-70 meters. Those. 80% of hits in length will fall to 200 meters. And the width is 20 meters. If the ship is located along and the hit point is calculated correctly, then 80% of the shells will fall into the hull. But if the ship is across, then less than 25%.
            1. 0
              16 February 2018 23: 10
              Yeah .. Just one problem - your target is approaching you at a speed of 20-50 knots, what percentages can there be by ellipse if you have a target 200 meters long, 20 wide, and the distance to a moving target 20 km?
      2. +1
        10 February 2018 09: 37
        I would not have hoped for a torpedo attack Lkr against Tkr white day, considering armor-piercing shells "safe"!
        I would - in the place of the British LCR - just got on the tail of Spee and called the nearest "heavyweights" on the radio.
        And in the place of “Spee” - he would “cowardly run away”, forcing the enemy (“Exeter”) to slowly catch up.
        At the same time, having a period of time when the 280 mm Spee guns already reach the enemy, and the 203 mm Exeter guns do not yet exist.
        At the same time, “Spee” does not need to maneuver, and “Exeter” any maneuvers to catch up - an increase in the time spent under fire without the ability to respond.
        And if the “Spee” lasts “on the run” until the night - there is a chance of separation from the enemy.
        The chance was: the next British “heavyweights” could not come in a couple of hours.
        1. +1
          10 February 2018 12: 10
          Shooting at extreme distances is a waste of shells ...
    3. 0
      9 February 2018 13: 53
      Quote: nemoXX
      But Langsdorf’s decision to get closer to the Exeter group can hardly be considered correct.

      Everywhere they write that he took the light cruisers for destroyers. And the destroyers clearly meant a convoy. Those. on the contrary, it was necessary to vigorously attack, quickly bring the enemy to an unfit state, and start chasing vehicles before they scatter and hide. It was built for this, so that he could cope with most cruisers who could be part of the convoy.
      And this situation was not regular. For reconnaissance, the raider was supposed to use a plane, but it crashed long before this battle. In fact, this led to the defeat - climbed the wrong way and attacked the wrong ones.
      1. 0
        9 February 2018 14: 06
        So it seems that they relatively quickly realized that they were not destroyers, but at the same time they continued rapprochement.
        1. 0
          9 February 2018 14: 57
          Quote: Kibb
          but with this rapprochement continued.

          This is for specialists. How much did the cruisers need in order to switch to the maximum from an economical speed? If you hurry, you can have time to seriously damage them, or even drown them. Trying to do this from the utmost distance - spend more time and ammunition.
          1. 0
            9 February 2018 15: 23
            By the way, the light cruisers themselves got into a fight and kept a short distance, even after their flagship retired and failed. Although it was more logical to stay away. Langsdorf must have suspected that they were trying to slap torpedoes at him.
            1. +1
              9 February 2018 15: 58
              Quote: brn521
              Although it was more logical to stay away

              This is not in the British tradition, although of course in reality, in any case
          2. +1
            9 February 2018 15: 32
            The question is not entirely this, Spee Raider, why does he need a direct battle with any enemy ship? If you’ve already got into trouble, it’s more logical to keep your distance when caliber superiority and fewer number of swallows - when approaching, the number of trunks starts to grow.
            Quote: brn521
            How much did the cruisers need in order to switch to the maximum speed from an economical speed

            Ten to fifteen minutes with water-tube boilers, if of course they were all in work, and why?
            1. 0
              12 February 2018 12: 51
              Quote: Kibb
              Spee raider, why does he need a direct battle with any enemy ship?

              The raid is running out. The ammunition is complete. Therefore, the battle, although unpleasant, is not critical. It is more profitable to incapacitate the enemy and hide than to miss the initiative and expect him to take it there. Moreover, the situation with intelligence was unimportant.
              Quote: Kibb
              when approaching, the number of trunks begins to grand.

              The British thought so too. Therefore, they previously decided to accept the battle at short distances, if their search succeeds. Again, there is at least some chance of successfully hitting a German with a torpedo. The Germans were waiting for these torpedoes, staring into the water in all eyes and even “noticed” something.
              Quote: Kibb
              Ten to fifteen minutes with water-tube boilers, if of course they were all in work, and why?

              More tactical options are available at high speed. For example, to keep the maximum distance and throw 200 mm shells from there. There is some chance of dropping them to Spee on the deck, for which this deck was not designed. In addition, Spee had nothing to conduct air reconnaissance. Who knows, maybe the rest of the hunters are on their way, they will divorce the couple and arrive on a tip even before sunset? Therefore, the desire to engage in close combat was mutual. The British - because they did not believe in early reinforcements, but were obliged to break off his further raiding by the raider. They were kind of clearly ordered. Spee, because British reinforcements could be within walking distance. Therefore, chopping off the tail should be as soon as possible the only way available for this.
      2. 0
        10 February 2018 09: 48
        The argument is accepted ... basically!
        Underestimating the enemy, along with defects in intelligence, is the surest way to big trouble.
        There is only a small nuance: there were practically no convoys at the beginning of the war.
        They began to form later, as awareness of the loss of single and unprotected transports.
        How many convoys did Spee meet during the raiding period, and what reason did Langsdorf have to decide “this convoy!”, Having clearly seen the enemy’s warships?
        1. 0
          12 February 2018 13: 03
          Quote: nemoXX
          There is only a small nuance: there were practically no convoys at the beginning of the war.

          How did the Germans know if they were or not? This is the same question as for intelligence.
          Quote: nemoXX
          How many convoys did Spee meet during the raiding period

          But dreamed of meeting. After all, it was built for this. With individual vehicles and auxiliary cruiser to cope.
    4. 0
      9 February 2018 15: 05
      Quote: nemoXX
      Spee needed in Argentina

      They write that in Buenos Aires the fairway was longer and more complicated. More likely to get a quality repair, but less likely to escape later.
      1. +1
        10 February 2018 09: 55
        You're right!
        However, only one British maintenance of a strong blocking group in La Plata, withdrawn for a long period from hostilities during a period critical for the country, would be a great success for Spee.
        Remember how scared a possible exit to the Tirpitsa Sea on convoy routes in the Arctic even when he couldn’t even go out?
        1. 0
          12 February 2018 11: 32
          Quote: nemoXX
          Remember how scared a possible exit to the Tirpitsa Sea on convoy routes in the Arctic even when he couldn’t even go out?

          The term of stay in the neutral port was limited. Three days have passed - either get lost on all four sides, or intern, if there are no political trump cards in the sleeves.
  29. 0
    9 February 2018 13: 15
    There was not a single reason preventing the Scheer from continuing the rapprochement and finishing off the Exeter - and then tackling light cruisers. The "pocket" battleship did not have any serious damage - in addition to two 203 mm hits, the British managed to "reach" it with several 152 mm shells that did not cause the Nazi raider any serious damage.

    This, of course, cannot and cannot justify the shortcomings of the German ship by the "mistakes" of its captain.
    The nazvat Exeter heavy cruiser is similar to the nazvat Spee battleship. Displacement and armor he has like a light cruiser and only 6 203 mm guns. The other two were also very “light”, weakly armored and weakly armed with a cruiser. All three British cruisers together taking only slightly exceeded Spee in value.
    In the end, Spee could not sink a single light cruiser, despite the fact that he shot almost all the ammunition. 17 shells hit him and he was seriously damaged in the fuel supply system, in the MSA and in the freeboard closer to the waterline. Therefore, he beat him and was forced to go to the neutral port for repairs, and then if he had time to go straight home.
    It was this battle that struck a clear demonstration that every encounter of this very expensive ship with 1-2 heavy or 2-3 light cruisers is deadly for him.
    1. 0
      9 February 2018 15: 15
      Quote: Kostadinov
      The nazvat Exeter heavy cruiser is similar to the nazvat Spee battleship.

      Nevertheless, a very decent cruiser to cover the trade. Enough against light and auxiliary raider cruisers. But not enough against the "pocket" battleships. If it were a convoy, Spee would switch to transports. But he did not know if it was a convoy or what; long before that, he had lost his last plane, so he climbed into the fray in vain.
      1. 0
        9 February 2018 15: 55
        Well, in any case, at least somehow protected, unlike the County. Only again, the eternal problem of price - eight counties cost ten Yorks, and on each county two guns more. It was only later in the course of the war that they realized that there wasn’t much difference, and that the LMS played the role more. Northumberlands were supposed to be a half-body of both of them, but the Great Crisis crept up, and then the London Agreement.
    2. +1
      10 February 2018 22: 21
      The Japanese in WWII had four cruisers with Exeter weapons. And they actively and very successfully used them.
  30. 0
    9 February 2018 14: 52
    Quote: nemoXX
    But Langsdorf’s decision to get closer to the Exeter group can hardly be considered correct. If you steer away from it, long-range 280-mm guns would have an advantage over the British 203-mm guns, firing at the enemy from unachievable distances for him, and faster light cruisers - they would not be able to hitch Spee without the risk of suicide, having caught up with him.

    Long distance, over 20 km. worse for Spee because he has poor horizontal armor and British half-armor will hit him across the deck. Unattainable distance for British guns over 25 km. At this distance, only ammunition-free consumption of ammunition is guaranteed. Approaching less than 7-8 km is also bad because it will lose the invulnerability of vertical armor and superiority in accuracy of fire, and even closer there is a risk of getting a torpedo hit. Langsdorf tried very correctly to get into a relatively safe area and stay there until the end of the battle. But the best commander and crew could not compensate for the shortcomings of their ship.
    1. 0
      9 February 2018 15: 44
      Well, this is not a battle of battleships, when approaching, the faster-fire 8 "and 6" are crammed into him, and you still need to hit 20 km with a light projectile - the rate of fire does not play there much, you still need to wait for the volley to fall.
    2. 0
      9 February 2018 21: 59
      Quote: Kostadinov
      Long distance, over 20 km. worse for Spee because he has poor horizontal armor and British half-armor will hit him across the deck. Unattainable distance for British guns over 25 km. At this distance, only ammunition-free consumption of ammunition is guaranteed. Approaching less than 7-8 km is also bad because it will lose the invulnerability of vertical armor and superiority in accuracy of fire, and even closer there is a risk of getting a torpedo hit. Langsdorf tried very correctly to get into a relatively safe area and stay there until the end of the battle. But the best commander and crew could not compensate for the shortcomings of their ship.


      British armor-piercing or semi-armor-piercing 8 "shells have an initial speed of 855 m / s and weight 116 kg. At a distance close to 20 km. They will still not be able to penetrate horizontal armor, and vertical armor they will already penetrate poorly

      The same goes for 6 "with an initial speed of 841 m / s and a weight of 50,8 kg.

      For long distances, American heavy shells with a relatively small initial velocity that fall at a large angle to the horizontal are best suited.
      1. 0
        9 February 2018 23: 29
        Quote: NF68
        At a distance close to 20 km. they will still poorly penetrate horizontal armor

        So why should they try to break through horizontal armor as many as 20 kilometers if the enemy himself is approaching. Cram at a minimum distance to the side, this is it.
        1. +1
          11 February 2018 22: 36
          Quote: Kibb
          So why should they try to break through horizontal armor as many as 20 kilometers if the enemy himself is approaching. Cram at a minimum distance to the side, this is it.


          283 mm. GK pocket battleship projectile flight path due to the high initial speed gently sloping thanks to which at all distances at which it is possible to aim fire firing accuracy is higher. Heavier shells have less dispersion. From which it follows that it is easier for Germans to shoot even if they start the littering at a noticeably greater distance than the enemy. A serious drawback of pickpockets was that the efficiency of firing his 6 "because of the lack of a normal SU at long distances was low. 105 see anti-aircraft guns in this regard, too, could not boast much. Moreover, they even had weak weaknesses to combat EM The Germans were late with the development of the universal caliber 127 mm or 128 mm. on the basis of the same anti-aircraft guns. Instead of 8-6 "and 6-105 mm. anti-aircraft guns would not be bad to use the 6X2 universal caliber with adequate SLA allowing effective fire on enemy surface ships.
          As a result, the crew of “Admiral Spee” during the battle had to transfer fire from the heavy cruiser to light because of which they could not finish the “Exeter”. And the consumption of shells GK was great for the same reason.
        2. +2
          11 February 2018 23: 53
          With 20km you still have to get there, right? How many hits from such a distance recorded? The huge range of the GK guns was useful when firing at squares, that is, along the coast.
          1. 0
            12 February 2018 16: 27
            Quote: Grafova Irina
            With 20km you still have to get there, right? How many hits from such a distance recorded? The huge range of the GK guns was useful when firing at squares, that is, along the coast.


            Having such a gentle flight path 283 mm. shells with acceptable visibility, you can start shooting from 20 km., and possibly from a greater distance. As the distance decreases, the adversary can use his 6 and 8 caliber quite effectively. This is not in the interests of the Germans.
            1. +1
              12 February 2018 20: 06
              You could start shooting. Only here with what effect ... The SLAs of the Germans, in principle, could allow them to fire at such a distance, but the expense of shells ... This could be allowed near your own base, but being at the other end of the "ball" from them - I had to keep this fact in mind all the time
              1. 0
                12 February 2018 21: 00
                Quote: Irina Grafova
                You could start shooting. Only here with what effect ... The SLAs of the Germans, in principle, could allow them to fire at such a distance, but the expense of shells ... This could be allowed near your own base, but being at the other end of the "ball" from them - I had to keep this fact in mind all the time


                The SLA of Germans and Americans could allow, with appropriate visibility, to fire at enemy battleships at a distance of 27-28 km. Suppose that it did not make much sense for the cruisers to fire from the greatest possible distances, but to open fire, again with suitable visibility, from slightly less than 27-28 km. distances were already possible. In this regard, the enemy’s 8 and 6 look much worse, not only because of the wider spread of lighter shells, but also because of the lower initial velocity of the shells, which also does not increase the accuracy of shooting at such large distances.
                1. +1
                  13 February 2018 08: 02
                  In conditions of excellent visibility of the Mediterranean Sea - one hit on 25 (or 27?) Km. “Iowa” gave away “Novake” at Truk. And it fired LC with appropriate for its size and purpose of the MSA. And in the first case - for an equal enemy, at least in terms of size. Yamato with the company began with 27km. There were coverings, but hits began only after reducing the distance, although his OMS, at least, was not inferior to those of the others.
                  Yes, the accuracy of the fire of heavy guns was impressive, no doubt ... But the conditions in which I had to shoot, and the human factor, too, significantly affected the result
                  1. 0
                    13 February 2018 17: 16
                    Quote: Grafova Irina
                    In conditions of excellent visibility of the Mediterranean Sea - one hit on 25 (or 27?) Km. “Iowa” gave away “Novake” at Truk. And it fired LC with appropriate for its size and purpose of the MSA. And in the first case - for an equal enemy, at least in terms of size. Yamato with the company began with 27km. There were coverings, but hits began only after reducing the distance, although his OMS, at least, was not inferior to those of the others.
                    Yes, the accuracy of the fire of heavy guns was impressive, no doubt ... But the conditions in which I had to shoot, and the human factor, too, significantly affected the result


                    Pay attention to the initial speed of the American 16 "and Japsn 18" shells: 762 m / s. and 780 m / s. as a result, the flight paths of these shells are relatively steep in comparison with the light 11 "German projectile with an initial speed of 910 m / s. Because of this, getting hit at long range by American 16" and Japanese 18 "shells is more difficult since when firing these with shells it is necessary to very accurately determine the real range to the target and the speed of the target. German 11 "projectiles flying at a much higher speed along a flatter path allow you to achieve hits and with slightly larger errors in determining the distance to ate and target speed. For example, the Japanese 18 "and the American 16" projectile will cover a distance of 20 km. in about 31-32 seconds. For battleships, hitting 11 "German shells at distances of the order of 20-25 km. Is not particularly dangerous, and for heavy cruisers with significantly weaker armor, any hit by 11" shells can be very dangerous and even lead to the destruction of a heavy cruiser.
                    1. +1
                      13 February 2018 19: 19
                      This is not entirely true, a light projectile loses speed much faster. Compare the angles of incidence of the Iowa, Ltuts, and Bisco shells:

                      1. 0
                        2 March 2018 16: 42
                        Quote: Lozovik
                        This is not entirely true, a light projectile loses speed much faster. Compare the angles of incidence of the Iowa, Ltuts, and Bisco shells:



                        For heavy cruisers, even such a flight speed of 300 kg. 283 mm. an armor-piercing projectile is quite enough to inflict heavy damage or, in the best case, even the sinking of TC.
                    2. +2
                      13 February 2018 22: 02
                      This is all wonderful, but why are you all this? The conversation was about hits ... Or about the possibility of such, in my opinion. Here, little depends on heavy calibers, but, on the other hand, a lot depends on the LMS and its support. And ballistics ... Excellent (in theory) 15 "50klb of Italian" beauties "what percentage of hits were given in the Mediterranean?
                      1. 0
                        15 February 2018 15: 57
                        Irina, you're right here - shooting tables, this is probably for the "nerds"
                        In the "land" Shovels can, but in the sea ...
                      2. 0
                        2 March 2018 16: 46
                        Quote: Irina Grafova
                        Excellent (in theory) 15 "50klb Italian" handsome "what percentage of hits gave in the Mediterranean?


                        These 15 "/ 50 Italian guns were clearly" reformed. "There is no accuracy whatsoever." The French at their 380 mm. / 45 also faced this resulting in an initial speed of 884 kg. armor-piercing shells were reduced from 830 m / s to 785 m / s. and only after the experiments conducted in the SSA it became possible to increase the initial velocity of the shells to 800 / sec.
    3. 0
      9 February 2018 22: 02
      Quote: Kostadinov
      Quote: nemoXX
      But Langsdorf’s decision to get closer to the Exeter group can hardly be considered correct. If you steer away from it, long-range 280-mm guns would have an advantage over the British 203-mm guns, firing at the enemy from unachievable distances for him, and faster light cruisers - they would not be able to hitch Spee without the risk of suicide, having caught up with him.

      Long distance, over 20 km. worse for Spee because he has poor horizontal armor and British half-armor will hit him across the deck. Unattainable distance for British guns over 25 km. At this distance, only ammunition-free consumption of ammunition is guaranteed. Approaching less than 7-8 km is also bad because it will lose the invulnerability of vertical armor and superiority in accuracy of fire, and even closer there is a risk of getting a torpedo hit. Langsdorf tried very correctly to get into a relatively safe area and stay there until the end of the battle. But the best commander and crew could not compensate for the shortcomings of their ship.


      The reservation system of "pocket battleships" was unique, not found on any other cruiser in the world. At the same time, each of the ships of the series had its individual differences in the reservation system and the thickness of the armor. [13]

      On Deutschland, hull armoring included an armor belt with a thickness of 60 mm, inclined at an angle of 12 ° (according to other 13,5 ° data), internal armored bulkheads with a thickness of 40-45 mm, 4 armored traverse with a thickness of 30 mm and an armored deck with a thickness of 30-45 mm Thus, the cruiser implemented the idea of ​​a spaced reservation that protected it from 120-152-mm caliber shells, although not from all the latter from the last. [14] The main-caliber towers and the conning tower received good protection - the armor thickness in critical areas reached 140 mm. The medium caliber was protected only symbolically - 10-mm shields. There was also splinterproof booking for rangefinder posts.

      "Admiral Scheer" received an enhanced reservation. The area of ​​the side belt became larger, the protection of stern and barbets improved, the lower armored bulkhead was made of the best quality armor. At the same time, deck armor became thinner - 20-40 mm in different areas.

      At the "Admiral Count Spee" returned to the distribution system of armor characteristic of the first ship. The armor belt has already become, but thicker - 100 mm. Thus, taking into account the internal bulkhead, the thickness of the vertical protection reached 140 mm (100 + 40), which was supposed to protect the cruiser from 152-, and at certain distances from 203-mm shells. Horizontal protection was also strengthened, the area of ​​the armored deck became larger, and above the ammunition cellars the thickness of the armor reached 70 mm.
  31. 0
    9 February 2018 21: 37
    arturpraetor,
    At a certain period of alpha, the battleship simply standing on the spawn carried the entire enemy team without doing anything, only by shooting - naturally, they abandoned such a concept. The game really thrice completely changed the gameplay before the release
    1. 0
      12 February 2018 22: 23
      Oh yes, I loved such battleships at AT. You make torpedo bombers on him, but he doesn’t even notice, bullets into the distance. Even if he noticed, he does not have time to accelerate.
      1. 0
        17 February 2018 14: 37
        At that moment there was no AB test, then only cruisers and LC were tested
  32. +3
    9 February 2018 22: 00
    The article is interesting, but it looks unfinished. The essence of the article boils down to the fact that Langsdorf was simply obliged to quickly destroy all three British cruisers. How to do this is not reported. What to do if the British suddenly do not want to be destroyed (as it happened) - it is also not said. Meanwhile, no adequate tactics leading to the victory of “Spee” in this battle is not visible.

    The author hurried a little with the statement that only 7 dangerous ships could catch Spee. As practice has confirmed, two or three cruisers can also quite satisfactorily cope with the task - to drive the raider. And already something, and the cruisers - "The King has a lot!". And all of them are usually faster than Spee. The problem is that Spee cannot shoot at three targets simultaneously. In addition, getting from afar on the cruiser in circulation is possible only by accident. It’s impossible to shoot normally on an actively maneuvering ship. Langsdorf did not just rush about and carry the fire back and forth. While he was trying to shoot at one cruiser, energetically maneuvering, the other two immediately embarked on a combat course and began shooting at Spee. It was a classic "bear hunt."

    Not having at least equal speed with the beaters, “Spee” had no chance to get out of this fight without losses. In any case, I do not see them. It is clear that an accidental hit in 11 "is not a gift, but the overall result of the battle looks natural.
    1. 0
      9 February 2018 22: 11
      The fact is that according to the authors, including Andrei, the site’s administration is opposed to long articles, so such cycles look really torn - there’s not always time to discuss them in real time, but in retrospect, when you see the whole cycle, it’s not completely discussed interesting - as a rule, you just speak into the void (it's not a secret that everyone is interested in the discussion)
    2. +3
      10 February 2018 08: 31
      Quote: Saxahorse
      How to do this is not reported.

      Actually - reported. Langsdorf should not have turned away, but it was necessary to continue rapprochement and hollow the Exeter until drowning, and then concentrate the main caliber fire on one of the light cruisers, disturbing the second shooting with 149,1-mm. And maneuvering according to circumstances. That's actually the recipe for victory :)
      1. +3
        10 February 2018 21: 16
        The simplest tips are always the most useful - "Go and kill them all!" :)
        But there is a small problem, the Exeter speed is 32 knots, the Spee speed is determined by bad people from 26 to 28 knots. How will Spee get closer to Exeter if the latter does not want to?

        Actually, the hits that Exeter caught in this battle are a clear jamb of Captain Bell. He also really wanted to shoot. But it was necessary to shoot less and maneuver more, because it is obvious that the German will hit the Exeter first of all. We had to turn around and wait until the “Spee” switch to the KRL clinging to it.
        1. +2
          11 February 2018 11: 05
          Quote: Saxahorse
          How will Spee get closer to Exeter if the latter does not want to?

          Let's stop looking at the spheroconic horses in a vacuum and go back to the battle at La Plata. Exeter went on a rapprochement with Spee, converging with him on counter-courses, and continued to do this even after getting hit in the nose tower
          Quote: Saxahorse
          And it was necessary to shoot less and maneuver more

          What's the point? Is it the only weapon that can stop Spee from artduel?
          1. +1
            11 February 2018 17: 58
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Exeter was approaching Spee, converging with him on counter-courses,

            About that and speech. The distance was dictated by the British. And a 50-60 kbl approximation is Bell's mistake. KRL kept 100 kbl, then came up to 70 kbl.

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            What's the point? Is it the only weapon that can stop Spee from artduel?

            The point is to save the ship and let KRL calmly shoot. Those also have no slingshots in the towers, but quite serious six-inch ones. Under Tsushima, four armadillos were crushed into the trash, larger than the Spee.

            Spee in this battle could win only by accident.
        2. 0
          12 February 2018 13: 52
          Quote: Saxahorse
          But there is a small problem, the Exeter speed is 32 knots, the Spee speed is determined by bad people from 26 to 28 knots

          Exeter as a result of the battle received a meter trim on the nose and he had to reduce speed to 17 knots. For Spee 18 knots are just in the comfort zone.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Actually, the hits that Exeter caught in this battle are a clear jamb of Captain Bell. He also really wanted to shoot.

          They write that he had an order to find Spee and kill him. The order was fully executed. Exeter almost killed Spee, but still managed to inflict sufficient damage, as required.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          it was necessary to shoot less and maneuver more

          Again, it comes down to the same order - to find and destroy. If you drag out the battle, then randomness will be in favor of Spee, who has more caliber and thicker armor.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          and wait until Spee switches to the KRL clinging to him

          They could not simultaneously cling and maneuver. So it was possible to quickly lose both light cruisers, after which Exeter would become completely sour. The worst outcome would have been possible — Spee would have fled with the coming of night. And the captain would be given a real presentation for the fact that he did nothing and failed the task.
          The light cruisers then even could not lead Spee normally. Achilles at around 10:00 tried to reduce the distance to 10 miles. But already the third batch of spee suitcases lay down 50 meters from the side, forcing the cruiser to sharply turn away. It’s a good caliber, they didn’t even have to get into it, it was enough to put it in the water next to it to break any cruising trifle with fragments.
          1. 0
            12 February 2018 22: 26
            Quote: brn521
            Exeter as a result of the battle received a meter trim on the nose and he had to reduce speed to 17 knots. For Spee 18 knots are just in the comfort zone

            But “Spee” as a result of the battle lost the SUAO, caught a plop and sharply thought about the number of remaining shells. It was no longer up to the chase.

            Quote: brn521
            Exeter almost killed Spee, but still managed to inflict sufficient damage, as required.

            “Exter” complied with the order, but the same thing could be done in a less risky way. Bell banally flipped his beak and stood under the longitudinal fire in the first minutes. It was necessary to turn right immediately to the left, noting that the cover had gone and not to rub the battleship in the forehead hoping to measure someone’s trunks thicker .. As it turned out easily 11 "thicker than 8". Moreover, he ended up only twice in “Spee” and hit. All the work was done by KRL. The task of “Exter” was to keep the damage and to agitate “Spee”. But to shoot himself secondarily, making sure that he jumped out from under the cover. By the way, Cumberland was already coming to their aid. The next day the Germans waited for the continuation of the ballet.

            Quote: brn521
            Quote: Saxahorse
            and wait until Spee switches to the KRL clinging to him
            They could not simultaneously cling and maneuver.

            They do not need to maneuver. Spee has only one SUAO. While GK “Spee” pounding on the “Exter” cruisers could shoot aiming. Which they did. 15 hits per 100 kb is a good result. And this is yet Langsdorf began to maneuver and evade coverings. Otherwise I would have caught several times more.
            1. +1
              13 February 2018 07: 27
              Quote: Saxahorse
              And “Spee” as a result of the battle lost SUAO

              Yes, somehow not really.
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Spee has only one SUAO

              Two actually
              Quote: Saxahorse
              15 hits on 100 kb is a good result

              Bad, especially since the hits were mainly made from shorter distances. And so - 18 hits with 2 065 projectiles fired - 0,87%
              1. 0
                13 February 2018 22: 31
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Quote: Saxahorse
                And “Spee” as a result of the battle lost SUAO
                Yes, somehow not really.

                Other sources believe that they did.

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Two actually

                Are you talking about anti-aircraft guns? When La Plata, they somehow did not come in handy. Although the plane was there :)

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Quote: Saxahorse
                15 hits on 100 kb is a good result
                Bad,

                Normal. If you remember that the answer is only one serious hit, and 70% of the Spee ammunition is already by-bye.
                1. +1
                  14 February 2018 00: 29
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Other sources believe that they did

                  Are mistaken. The post of anti-aircraft firing was knocked out, but the management of the Civil Code never.
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Are you talking about anti-aircraft guns?

                  What for? Spee had an 2 central post with duplication of SLA devices, and they had a profile - this is the main caliber, for aft anti-aircraft artillery - this is the secondary function
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Normal. If you remember that the answer is only one serious hit, and 70% of the Spee ammunition is already by-bye.

                  Of course, you are a communist, but fear God. Spee hit 6 times in Exeter and 1 times in Ajax, so 7 hits that on 414 shots gives 1,69%. Those. about twice as high as the british
                  1. 0
                    15 February 2018 00: 28
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Are mistaken. The post of anti-aircraft firing was knocked out, but the management of the Civil Code - never

                    It seems they wrote that the top fire control post was destroyed. Yes, maybe it's about anti-aircraft guns. But there was also a mention of getting into the front post, with some kind of loss of connection.

                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    What for? Spee had an 2 central post with duplication of SLA devices, and they had a profile - this is the main caliber, for aft anti-aircraft artillery - this is the secondary function

                    Here I saw another description. The GC calculator was exactly duplicated. And later they wrote that the second (stern) was transferred to manage FOR. It is far from a fact that these two calculators could work independently and in parallel and, for example, control different towers.

                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Of course, you are a communist, but fear God. Spee hit 6 times in Exeter and 1 time in Ajax, so 7 hits, which is 414 shots gives 1,69%.

                    Shooting Exeter is an obvious cheat, too simple. :) Aggressiveness in battle is good, but rushing into an attack in a straight line copying rhino tactics is too much.
                    1. +1
                      15 February 2018 08: 21
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      It seems they wrote that the top fire control post was destroyed

                      Let’s clarify again :))) The top fire control post of the Civil Code is a command and rangefinder point, Spee had three of them :)))) And the conclusion of one of them absolutely did not solve anything. Data from the three CDCs was sent to a central post and processed there on an analog computer. There were two such central posts, not one of them was hurt. And the anti-aircraft firing post was damaged
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      The GC calculator was exactly duplicated. And later they wrote that the second (stern) was transferred to manage FOR. It is far from a fact that these two calculators could work independently and in parallel and, for example, control different towers.

                      Fact. They consisted of 2 posts, in case of failure of another.
                      The car does not care what to count. As a matter of fact, it worked like this - a bunch of parameters were taken into account (course / speed / distance to the enemy ship, course / speed of your ship, wind speed, gunpowder temperature, etc.) and the result was the magnitude of the bearing change (VIP) and the magnitude distance changes (VIR) that allowed to "predict" where the enemy ship will be relative to ours at one time or another.
                      Which, in turn, made it possible to automatically give vertical and horizontal aim angles to each gun. And each of the two posts gave this info to all 280-mm and 150-mm guns without problems. It was also possible to divide the fire.
                      As a matter of fact, this is why the 150 mm was a conditional stepdaughter - no one bothered to use the KDP (one of three) to control it, but the fact is that the more range finders measure distance, the better. Therefore, usually all KDP used for the main caliber
                      1. 0
                        15 February 2018 23: 00
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Let's clarify again :))) The top post of the GK fire control is a command and rangefinder point, Spee had three of them :))))

                        Well .. at least there were one less :) And then they assure me at the same time that six-inch shells for Spee are not more dangerous than rubber balls.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Fact. They consisted of 2 posts, in case of failure of another.
                        The car does not care what to count.

                        Well what are you. Everything is completely different here. Firstly, the ballistics of the guns ZA and GK are very different, the characteristics of the goals, too. It means that it is impossible to simply transfer data in parallel to the ZA and the GK; the output is also different data. Secondly, a mechanical computer is not a CPU or even a computer. The result is calculated using specially selected gears, curved cams, etc. details representing the solution area for certain corrections for a particular gun. When they write that the second computer was adapted for anti-aircraft guns, this means it was physically redone. We changed the details of the machine to calculate other amendments for other guns. Clicking the toggle switch back does not switch such a machine.
            2. 0
              13 February 2018 14: 50
              Quote: Saxahorse
              But “Spee” as a result of the battle lost the SUAO, caught a plop and sharply thought about the number of remaining shells. It was no longer up to the chase.

              Not completely lost, just did not notice a malfunction in time. But in the end, everything worked out, the light cruisers felt it right there in their own skin, stopped impudent and moved away. But they also stopped getting in. However, by this time they were running out of shells in the surviving towers. In general, their adventure was successful - shooting at short range allowed to make enough hits. If they fired, as some comrades suggest here, from a maximum distance, they would not have achieved this as well, having wasted all the ammunition for nothing.
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Bell banally flipped his beak and stood under the longitudinal fire in the first minutes. It was necessary to immediately turn left to notice that the cover went

              He nevertheless carried the main caliber of the compound. Therefore, one thing is either to shoot accurately or to maneuver. At the same time, maneuvering does not guarantee anything.
              Quote: Saxahorse
              They do not need to maneuver. Spee has only one SUAO.

              The British did not think so. On the contrary, they were sure that the Germans shared the fire of the GK towers and even documented an almost unbelievable result - two almost simultaneous hits in two different targets with virtually no shooting. If you read them, you can imagine that they fought with some kind of monster and did the only thing they could - poked in close combat and hoped for good luck. As originally planned by them, even before meeting Spee. As far as I understand, the Admiralty confirmed their decision - they did exactly what the command expected of them. Or not?
              Quote: Saxahorse
              KRL did all the work.

              All work, as usual, was done by chance. But the Germans would have been much more likely, had they not begun to maneuver.
              Quote: Saxahorse
              And this is yet Langsdorf began to maneuver and evade coverings.

              So that's the point. If he hadn’t spun in vain, he would have dealt with light cruisers much earlier than they did with him.
              Quote: Saxahorse
              By the way, Cumberland was already coming to their aid. The next day the Germans waited for the continuation of the ballet.

              The battered light cruisers were even less likely to get a German out at night until morning. Even before that, their chances were so low that they were forced to support the fight.
              1. 0
                13 February 2018 22: 51
                Quote: brn521
                If they fired, as some comrades suggest here, from a maximum distance, they would not have achieved this as well, having wasted all the ammunition for nothing.

                Look at least at the circuit given in article. The first coverings and hits from KRL went immediately and in a row. It is believed that precisely at this moment either Langsdorf was wounded or shell-shocked. Distance 90 kb.

                Quote: brn521
                So that's the point. If I hadn’t spun in vain, I would have dealt with light cruisers much earlier than they did with him

                And only when Langsdorf began to spin and shoot back from KRL too, the percentage of hits from cruisers fell and they also began to maneuver. If Exter did the same, he would not have taken his shells back to the Falklands.

                Quote: brn521
                The battered light cruisers were even less likely to get a German out at night until morning. Even before that, their chances were so low that they were forced to support the fight.

                KRL pretty much spent ammunition, especially “Ahiless”, but “Spee” dropped 70%, he has 30 salvos left for the GK.

                By the way, pay attention, the case is on December 13th, this is the height of summer in the Southern Hemisphere, Spee has a very short night ahead and both KRL also carry airplanes. The next meeting with Cumberland is almost inevitable.
                1. 0
                  14 February 2018 14: 03
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  ...

                  As for the attempt to escape from the battered light cruisers, the question is removed. The same 8-inch shell from Exeter seems to have damaged the fuel cleaning system for the Germans. So for a long time you cannot run around the ocean with such damage.
                  Thus, we return to the basic layouts, of which there are only two.
                  1. Spee crawls into the fray. There are opportunities for this - armor and a powerful main caliber. In this case, he should nevertheless suffer shelling of light cruisers and squeeze Exeter. Otherwise, why would he need armor? He climbed into the fray as an armadillo, and then suddenly he began to take care of the skin and spinning like some light cruiser.
                  2. Spee does not get into a fight. Well, the British will find the German, and he will show the stern and give a move under 20 knots, firing from his heavy guns. For his diesels, this is normal. Whereas the cruisers will run out in 3-4 days. This is what the British were afraid of, and therefore they tried to do as much damage as possible in as little time as possible, sacrificing their own security. If they kept their distance and fired harassingly, the Germans would simply be offended and sailed away. So it is not surprising that Exeter, who carried the main caliber of the connection, so substituted. He didn’t have to run from the German, but on the contrary, aiming for the minimum lines to aim as many as possible 8-inch shells capable of perforating the raider to the giblets, unlike the 6-inch crackers of light cruisers. Therefore, actually climbed forward and fought to the last.
                  Thus, either one or the other. Or a normal battle, as a result of which Exeter goes to the bottom, and Spee for repairs. Or start off immediately after it became clear that among the attacked ships there are neither destroyers, nor convoys. And once you got into a fight and received damage, having lost the raider qualities, you need to bring the battle to the end.
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  It is believed that precisely at this moment either Langsdorf was wounded or shell-shocked. Distance 90 kb

                  Both the Germans and the British considered such a distance unprofitable for the British in opposing the 6 and 11 inch artillery. Therefore, the light cruisers continued rapprochement. The shell-shocked Langsdorf was completely insufficient to incapacitate the raider.
                  Actually, the real damage, breaking off the possibility of long-distance transitions for Spee, was caused by the only hit of 8 "from Exeter.
                  1. 0
                    15 February 2018 00: 43
                    The distance itself is not so important if the enemy goes straight and straight. You score amendments and lead ahead and forward, coverings will be mandatory. But if the enemy maneuvers the lead it is necessary to guess, then the greater the distance, the more difficult it is to guess where to shoot.

                    You underestimate the damage from 6 "shells. In the Spee list of damage and three holes near the waterline, and a broken rangefinder post (1 of 3) and two damaged guns of the aft turret turret (2 of 3). To" endure "firing of KRL, this is to go in a straight line and catch these cobblestones continuously, but he already got it.
                    1. +1
                      15 February 2018 11: 05
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      The distance itself is not so important if the enemy goes straight and straight.

                      Everything is important. And how the ship goes, and how the enemy goes, the type and quality of adjustment, coordination of fire with other ships, weather, lighting, caliber and type of shells, the degree of deterioration of the guns, etc. Something only guarantees direct fire.
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      You underestimate the damage from 6 "shells.

                      Good damage, but only if 50 of them get into the ship.
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      two damaged guns GK aft tower (2 of 3)

                      Spee about 10:00 shuganul Achilles, who ventured to go 10 miles from the stern, from the right quarter. The third salvo lay 50 meters from the cruiser, because of which he was forced to abruptly turn away. Apparently, the shot down paint on the gun barrels did not affect the accuracy of the aft tower. Actually, for this, they set up heavy towers with powerful armor - the loss of any of them is extremely undesirable.
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      To "tolerate" KRL shooting, it’s to go in a straight line and catch these cobblestones continuously.

                      These cobblestones could not drown the raider or knock him the main caliber.
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      And he already got it.

                      Since he didn’t care to get repaired anyway, it was right to finish Exeter right away.
                      1. 0
                        15 February 2018 23: 10
                        Quote: brn521
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        You underestimate the damage from 6 "shells.
                        Good damage, but only if 50 of them get into the ship.

                        And you count. In the battle of Jutland, they maneuvered a little (although they also jumped out of order when they bake). The distance is about the same. As a result, the parties showed 2.5-3.5% of hits. Here KRL fired more than 2000 shells. It is unlikely that by the time WWII began to shoot worse. In total, if Langsdorf does not maneuver, Spee should have expected 50-70 hits at least.

                        Quote: brn521
                        Apparently, the shot down paint on the gun barrels did not affect the accuracy of the aft tower.

                        I don’t know exactly what happened with the two cannons of the aft tower, but paint scratches are usually not included in the lists of battleship damage. Nowhere is it written how many trunks participated in the last salvo of Ajax six or four, for example.

                        Quote: brn521
                        These cobblestones could not drown the raider or knock him the main caliber.

                        Look at the photos of the battleship "Borodino" after Tsushima and 70 hits. Especially carefully look at the stub of the trunk of the front turret of the main missile :) The shell was torn off.
      2. +1
        15 February 2018 09: 56
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Actually - reported. Langsdorf should not have turned away, but it was necessary to continue rapprochement and hollow the Exeter until drowning, and then concentrate the main caliber fire on one of the light cruisers, disturbing the second shooting with 149,1-mm. And maneuvering according to circumstances. That's actually the recipe for victory :)


        How simple it all turns out - Apparently Langsdorf was a dropout at the academy, to whom was the ship entrusted? ...
  33. +1
    10 February 2018 17: 49
    Quote: nemoXX

    It is clear that we were instilled with the myth of "the resources of conquered Europe" in order to justify the terrible defeat of the USSR of the 41st year, but this is not confirmed in any way.

    This is just confirmed by the facts. And it is even more true than the communists said. Otherwise, Hitler would never attack. These industrial Russoras allowed us to relate to the USSR simply not carelessly.
    1. +1
      10 February 2018 22: 32
      In addition, there is a point of view that in the WWII of the USSR, in alliance with the United States, or rather, on the contrary, they fought against the British Empire, of which Germany was an ally. She performed until Great Britain merged her, forced to join the US-USSR bloc. But, the British Empire was still ruined. By the way, the ratio of losses between the UK and Poland is surprising. It seems that the Poles, having entered the war first, actively fought on all fronts, and at sea, including.
      1. +1
        11 February 2018 15: 38
        "It seems that these are the Poles, who entered the war first, actively fought on all fronts" ///

        So it was. They entered the World War the very first.
        After the defeat, their units left for Slovakia and Romania and moved to France. And they fought there for the French. When France was defeated, they moved to England
        and fought for the British. Hence such losses.
  34. +1
    11 February 2018 00: 13
    who nevertheless won the battle of Jutland - the British or the Germans

    Defeat of Mahan Theory
    Germany also shared the views of Mahan. The most influential adherents were Minister of the Sea Alfred von Tirpitz, and under his influence, Kaiser Wilhelm II. The only difference from the English views was the recognition of the fact that Germany was in the role of a catching-up country, and therefore should strive to split the English fleet into a general battle, in order to then destroy it in parts. Only after the battle of Jutland brought no decisive victory to anyone did Germany radically change its naval strategy.
    I read the article with pleasure. A rare occurrence in VO.
    The hero of the article, the cruiser Exeter, is sunk in the second battle in the Java Sea without loss of the Japanese.
    The commander of the English cruiser ordered to leave the ship. In during the evacuation of the crew, a Japanese torpedo from the destroyer Inazuma hit the cruiser. Exeter rolled over and sank

    forces were not equal there. The Japanese predictably won.
  35. 0
    11 February 2018 19: 28
    Quote: NF68
    At a distance close to 20 km. they will still be bad at breaking through horizontal armor, and vertical booking will be bad at breaking through

    Here the question is only if cannons can penetrate the armor of Spee? The main horizontal armor of Spee (17 + 45 mm) British guns and 8 dm and 6 dm will penetrate from about 21 kilometers. Of course, it is not easy to get into this distance, but why would such an opportunity be left to the enemy if it can be taken away. It’s one thing when 20 cannons shoot at you, the ability to pierce your armor, and another when not a single enemy gun pierces your main armor.
    1. 0
      12 February 2018 14: 23
      Quote: Kostadinov
      8 dm and 6 dm will penetrate from about 21 kilometers

      8 dm - should, in theory. With a chance, if not zero, but something like that. And 6 dm for what reason? The Deutschlands were specifically designed so that the 150mm crackers of light cruisers were like peas against a wall.
      I do not argue, this is enough to disturb the Germans. To force maneuver, losing speed, while the main forces of the British are suitable. But that is the problem. The main forces were far away. Therefore, the British were ordered not only to track down, but also to attack.
  36. +3
    11 February 2018 23: 23
    A rare case in the history of military shipbuilding. For more than half a century, there has been debate about the classification of ships of the Deutschland type. And the methods and purposes of their use ... They are either battleships (although the reservation was not very good), they are battleships ("pocket" (!)), Or heavy cruisers ... I do not propose to put an end to this dispute, because I don’t have sufficient "authority" in this field (although how to say what laughing ), but I propose to introduce such a concept - a raider. Or a corsair. Or a privatir, more precisely ... Of the analogues, I can not offer anyone because of their absence ... These ships were unique. And the responsibility of the method of their use (and the result of use) lies not with them, but with people. There, the Swedes, their last armadillos (namely, armadillos), whatever they are - “Drotting Victoria” or something, was built only for the Baltic, which is quite justified and understandable. This is to say that they and pickpockets (!) Had a similar composition of artillery. But the Germans have ambitions, however, they also need to put the Angles in a puddle ... Without having the proper capabilities, except for the submarines, and then a little later ... But in a hypothetical battle, I would put on the "Swede" ...
    So, Andrei, who is from Chelyabinsk, I am in solidarity with you, it’s just that my area of ​​application of some knowledge of history lies in a slightly different plane than the analysis of the “flights” of a single boat ...
    Sincerely ...
    1. +2
      12 February 2018 18: 51
      Greetings, dear Irina!
      Quote: Irina Grafova
      but I propose to introduce such a concept - a raider. Or a corsair. Or privatir, more precisely ..

      Easily - no worse than any other. But, strictly speaking, you can find fault with any of them and prove that it has a different meaning. I would suggest a "heavy raider" to have a distinction between ships of other classes that perform the tasks of destroying enemy maritime trade. And this definition is also far from ideal. But one could argue whether Scharnhorst is with Gneisenau, and even Bismarck :)))))) Uh, it seems that brings me to alternatives again :))))))
      Quote: Irina Grafova
      Sincerely ...

      Mutually! hi
      1. +2
        12 February 2018 20: 12
        “Bismarck” along with “uncles” is extremely difficult to attribute to the raiders ... Damned sailing range, alas. So their use in such a role, as well as KRT, made a gamble. But the task of distant cover for the "pure raiders" (privatists) - this was for them
  37. 0
    12 February 2018 16: 20
    Quote: Alexey RA
    And where could the Germans in 1943 still be able to fight surface ships at sea?


    If the British in December 1943 sank the German battleship Scharnhorst on the open sea, then German surface ships still sometimes went to sea. Although at that time the Germans had very little liquid fuel, and this significantly limited the use by the Germans of their small surface heavy ships.
    1. 0
      13 February 2018 09: 56
      Quote: NF68
      If the British in December 1943 sank the German battleship Scharnhorst on the open sea, then German surface ships still sometimes went to sea.

      So I don’t argue with that. Moreover, it is the thesis "after the New Year’s battle, the German big pots hid in the bases and did not go out to sea"I refuted.
      They just threw a stone at the Germans that they fought with surface ships only in the far north:
      Quote: voyaka uh
      But only in the far north did they try to scare the British and Russians.

      So I asked - where else from the beginning of 1943 could German LK and KR operate?
      1. 0
        13 February 2018 17: 25
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Quote: NF68
        If the British in December 1943 sank the German battleship Scharnhorst on the open sea, then German surface ships still sometimes went to sea.

        So I don’t argue with that. Moreover, it is the thesis "after the New Year’s battle, the German big pots hid in the bases and did not go out to sea"I refuted.
        They just threw a stone at the Germans that they fought with surface ships only in the far north:
        Quote: voyaka uh
        But only in the far north did they try to scare the British and Russians.

        So I asked - where else from the beginning of 1943 could German LK and KR operate?


        Since the 1942 of the year, the Germans' problem was a serious shortage of liquid fuel of all grades, including naval fuel oil. It was not enough even for EM and other escort ships. I do not argue with the fact that already from 1942, German heavy ships could not even operate anywhere except for the North and Baltic Seas. In the Baltic, they had nothing to do, and in the North Sea the Germans also had to act very carefully so as not to get caught by superior enemy forces, as happened with the Scharnhorst crew. The Germans were also not always able to conduct effective aerial reconnaissance in the north because of the same lack of aviation gasoline and airplanes.
        1. +1
          13 February 2018 22: 05
          Oil is the "blood" of war ... Someone said ...
  38. +1
    12 February 2018 17: 13
    Andrey from Chelyabinsk,

    "The British, certainly well done, that climbed to fight - they were lucky (" ////


    You slide into a repeating pattern:
    The British HAVE ALWAYS been lucky, the Germans HAS ALWAYS fled. negative
    Cartoon: "Lucky" against the "Panties".
    With this approach, you can get likes on VO, but it is impossible to become a historian
    navy. To become a historian, it is not enough to know the characteristics of ships and guns:
    it is necessary to get rid of national stereotypes, likes and dislikes fellow .
    1. +2
      12 February 2018 18: 42
      Quote: voyaka uh
      You slide into a repeating pattern

      Oh, well, that’s not necessary, huh :))))))
      Quote: voyaka uh
      The British HAVE ALWAYS been lucky, the Germans HAS ALWAYS fled.

      What does it mean - the English as always lucky? Kindly, and indicate where else have I been lucky with the British? :))))
    2. +2
      12 February 2018 18: 53
      Quote: voyaka uh
      The British HAVE ALWAYS been lucky, the Germans HAS ALWAYS fled. negative
      Cartoon: "Lucky" against the "Panties".
      With this approach, you can get likes on VO, but it is impossible to become a historian
      navy. To become a historian, it is not enough to know the characteristics of ships and guns:
      it is necessary to get rid of national stereotypes, likes and dislikes

      And what does national sympathy or antipathy have to do with it, if the German "big pots" did run regularly regularly even from an enemy inferior to them? The same “Charles” and “Gnei” at a meeting with one “Rinaun” quickly performed 101st karate practicehaving abandoned his patrol area - and the limes managed to quietly bring their ships to Narvik. In 1941, the same couple met a convoy under the guard of one Era - and Lutyens forbade Charles to even attempt to withdraw the escort LC from KOH with a demonstrative attack so that the Gnei could work on ships. In 1943, in his last campaign, “Charles”, when trying to break through to the KOH vessels, twice fought with 1 KRT and 2 KRL limes, after which he twice tried to break away from them, and then generally decided to return to base.
      And the “New Year’s fight” ... 1 panzerschiffe, 1 SRT and 6 EMs (including Narviki) against initially only 6 EM limes, among which, EMNIP, there were 2 EM defense with 102 mm guns instead of 120 mm. And what is the result? British EMs detained German classmates + KRT for 2 hours, the Panzerschiffe, going to KOH, did not hit his ships even once, and then the forester came 2 KRL arrived - "town" and "colony" - and dispersed the Germans. smile
      1. +1
        12 February 2018 20: 18
        And the Germans had no choice but to “run regularly”. Because the sinking of Huda hit national feelings, but did the metropolitan fleet really weaken? And the sinking of “Bismarck”, in addition to a blow to the senses, also weakened the fleet by exactly half, if we talk about real LC
        1. +1
          12 February 2018 21: 06
          I agree with you. One cannot call the actions of the Germans at sea cowardly. They had to be careful with a large numerical superiority of the enemy. For the sake of prestige, to drown one large ship of the British and then die heroically?
          The surface fleet (as well as the submarine) was given the task of interrupting the supply of the island, and not destroy the Royal Navy. Which was too big. On the contrary, the British could take risks - and take risks.
      2. 0
        12 February 2018 22: 31
        And what happened on the Mediterranean ...
        When two British KRL with pissed rags drove the Italian squadron led by the Venetto away from the convoy ...
        1. +2
          13 February 2018 08: 18
          Well, Italians are a separate “song” ... Very good ships, good sailors with traditions, and not cowards, but something with the command didn’t work out already “top” ...
    3. +1
      12 February 2018 20: 21
      You portrayed something wrong ... Or didn’t understand anything ... crying
  39. +1
    12 February 2018 19: 59
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Quote: Irina Grafova
    It seems to me, so, unobtrusively that they would become “hedgehogs” very quickly, if such a need arose ... 38 20mm assault rifles + 16 37mm (very good) + 14 105mm guns (this is on Scharnhorst) is quite acceptable. Especially considering the quality of German firing control systems ...

    Heh heh heh ... very fast - This is not about the Germans. For 5 (five!) Years since the beginning of the war, they could not put a 37-mm machine gun on the ships, putting in place a paired semi-automatic machine of the type of the repeatedly cooled 21-K.

    Despite the fact that the 37-mm MZA itself was available and mass-produced - but for the army and backlashes.
    Quote: Irina Grafova
    The newest (at the time of the start of the mess on TO) LK had 20 127mm (proved to be excellent) and ... "Chicago pianos" in the amount of 6 settings (in my opinion, if not 4).

    This is at the post-Washington campers - they appeared on MOT only closer to the fall of 1942.
    And on the Pacific air defense missile defense, at first it was limited to 8x127 / 25 (not even 5 "/ 38) and theoretically 4 "Chicago pianos". In practice, the 76 mm anti-aircraft guns were placed in the nests of the “piano”.
    In July 1941, according to the experience of the war in Europe, the positions of the 127-mm anti-aircraft guns, on the recommendation of the Council of King, were equipped with anti-fragmentation shields around the guns, but not on the guns themselves. The Council also recommended strengthening light anti-aircraft weapons by installing 4 new 28-mm automatic weapons, but since their deliveries were delayed, it was decided to install 4 76 mm guns as a temporary measure: two on the sides of the nose superstructure, instead of a pair of 127 mm mine weapons in open installations, and 2 more closer to the stern.
    © Mandel / Skoptsov. Line ships of the United States of America. Part II Battleships of the "New York", "Oklahoma" and "Pennsylvania" types.
    So, oddly enough, but in 1939-1942, all the warring countries had the same air defense of ships at approximately the same level. Even the Navy of the USSR. smile
    And in the second half of 1942, the USA finally completed work on the overhaul of the design and documentation of "bofors" and "erlikons" for conveyor production (the phrases "drilled after assembly in place" or "modify after assembly by a file "- ecstasy of mass production technologists smile ) And from that time on, the United States and limes went ahead of the air defense of ships.

    I’ve talked about the latest LC amers, if you didn’t notice ...
    And the Germans 37mm sparks had stable bases, which at the beginning of the war was a rare occurrence ...
    "Pom-pom" is already outdated by the same beginning of the same war.
    1. 0
      13 February 2018 10: 10
      Quote: Irina Grafova
      I’ve talked about the latest LC amers, if you didn’t notice ...

      I noticed. And he noted that post-Washington military air defense was the best that the USN had from naval air defense at the end of 1941. On the other LCs with air defense it was even worse.
      Quote: Irina Grafova
      And the Germans 37mm sparks had stable bases, which at the beginning of the war was a rare occurrence ...

      No stabilization will help to turn a ZAU with a rate of 30 rounds per minute into a small-caliber anti-aircraft machine gun. smile
      Quote: Irina Grafova
      "Pom-pom" is already outdated by the same beginning of the same war.

      Better to have outdated pom-poms than not to have any MZA at all.
      1. +1
        13 February 2018 16: 30
        The C / 30 in the LC / 30 was not fully automated and had a rate of fire up to 80 rounds per minute (theoretically up to 160). I refer to the same Suligu ...
        Pom-poms showed themselves very unimportantly from the first days of the war. Because since its creation 20 years have passed and aviation has made a huge leap forward. Against the same "swordfish" - still back and forth, but otherwise - alas. Only now the control system has tightened up qualitatively ...
        And about the lack of "no MZA at all" you got a little excited. Rather, we can talk about its insufficiency
  40. 0
    12 February 2018 21: 14
    I liked the article, but if the continuation ... Could German industry at all build the necessary number of raiders and battleships with escort squadrons to unconditionally solve the tasks indicated as priorities for Germany in WWII? Or the Germans' priority was still in ground operations and "expanding the living space of the German nation" - this is an official quotation from the 3rd Reich. And if land operations are a priority, then maybe the tactics of countering England were planned differently? Well, for example - the maximum attenuation in the period of active hostilities by intercepting convoys and traders with the aim of maximum concessions during the reconciliation of the parties? Indeed, according to Nazi terminology, both the British and the French were only a little bit worse than the “Aryans”, and the fascist pre-war movements in England were quite strong and sympathetic to the Nazis ...
    1. +1
      12 February 2018 22: 34
      Theoretically, it could have been if the world had survived until 1945. The Führer promised this deadline, and the admirals planned the end of the naval program for him.
    2. +1
      13 February 2018 08: 23
      It coincides in terms and quantity with the program of construction of the "Big Fleet" with us. It seems that ours, that the German program could be completed on time, may, although not in full ... Just keep in mind that other opponents would not stand still ...
    3. +2
      13 February 2018 10: 18
      Quote: Lev Bronsch
      Could German industry at all build the necessary number of raiders and battleships with escort squadrons to unconditionally solve the tasks indicated as priorities for Germany in WWII?

      In theory could. But for this the army had to comply with Directive No. 21 - completely and precisely on time.
      For the construction of the fleet required the return of working hands to industry (and agricultural - for by 1941 there was already famine in the Reich). And demobilization demanded the elimination of potential land threats, of which the USSR was considered the main one (and at the same time Britain’s last hope) at the end of 1940.
  41. 0
    13 February 2018 11: 51
    Quote: brn521
    Quote: Kostadinov
    8 dm and 6 dm will penetrate from about 21 kilometers

    8 dm - should, in theory. With a chance, if not zero, but something like that. And 6 dm for what reason? The Deutschlands were specifically designed so that the 150mm crackers of light cruisers were like peas against a wall.
    I do not argue, this is enough to disturb the Germans. To force maneuver, losing speed, while the main forces of the British are suitable. But that is the problem. The main forces were far away. Therefore, the British were ordered not only to track down, but also to attack.

    1. As for the chances of getting to 21-23 km. in World War II they are certainly worse than from 7-8 km. but they are very real. Here a lot depends on what is more important for the ship to hit the enemy or to avoid getting hit and often change their course and speed.
    2. The displacement did not allow the citadel of German armadillos to be made as a "wall for peas" for 6 dm guns. They had a large zone of citadel invulnerability from these guns, but outside this zone 6 dm guns could penetrate the main armor.
    At 8 and 6 dm. British guns, the distance of penetration of horizontal armor of German armadillos is approximately the same because a 6 dm projectile approaches the armor at a greater angle than 8 dm. a shell.
    1. 0
      15 February 2018 17: 24
      Quote: Kostadinov
      As for the chances of getting to 21-23 km. in World War II they are certainly worse than from 7-8 km. but they are very real.

      The British rated them so low that they climbed into close combat, sacrificing ships.
      Quote: Kostadinov
      outside this zone, 6 dm guns could penetrate the main armor.

      The chance to catch something important was not great. Those. several dozens of shells need to be slammed to make this chance real.
      Quote: Kostadinov
      At 8 and 6 dm. British guns the distance of breaking horizontal armor of German armadillos is about the same

      But they preferred to shorten the distance. At the same time, they have less chance of getting into horizontal armor and breaking through it. But there’s a greater chance of getting there. What was required - to give out as many hits as possible on the raider before he rushes to flee. Harwood was so lucky - the raider was not only found, but he himself launched an attack.
  42. 0
    13 February 2018 12: 10
    Quote: Kibb
    Well, this is not a battle of battleships, when approaching, the faster-fire 8 "and 6" are crammed into him, and you still need to hit 20 km with a light projectile - the rate of fire does not play there much, you still need to wait for the volley to fall.

    Light cruisers cram if they manage to get closer, but before that they need to overcome the invulnerability zone of the Spee citadel, and it is very large for 6 dm. guns - approximately 14 kilometers (from 7 to 21 km). With a relative difference in the speed of the ships of about 7 km / h, overcoming the distance from 21 to 7 km. takes 2 hours.
  43. 0
    13 February 2018 12: 31
    Quote: NF68
    At 283 mm. GK pocket battleship projectile flight path due to the high initial speed gently sloping thanks to which at all distances at which it is possible to aim fire firing accuracy is higher.

    At long distances (over 20 km.), When the horizontal projection becomes the main target, a flatter trajectory worsens the accuracy and penetration of the horizontal armor.
  44. 0
    13 February 2018 12: 43
    Quote: Rurikovich
    I’ll only add from myself that it was not Admiral Count Spee who lost the battle, but Hans Langsdorf, who, for reasons known only to him, did not use all the capabilities of the ship.

    It was the German ship that lost the battle despite the British mistake (it was absolutely unnecessary for them to approach Spee in the afternoon with good visibility). They could keep their distance and follow Spee, and if they wanted to be so close they could do at night.
    Langsdorf and his crew acted flawlessly, but they had no chance.
  45. 0
    13 February 2018 13: 03
    The "past" war was fought by both England and Germany - battleships and cruisers.
    All - almost without anti-aircraft artillery. The first one to use torpedo bombers
    would defeat the enemy.

    In the Arctic theater, where England and Germany fought the "last" war, large armored artillery reservations are more useful than aircraft carriers.
    1. +1
      13 February 2018 15: 16
      Quote: Kostadinov
      In the Arctic theater, where England and Germany fought the "last" war, large armored artillery reservations are more useful than aircraft carriers.

      The Germans thought otherwise - in the Sportpalast operation, the Tirpitz, at the sight of the reconnaissance Albacore, immediately increased its speed to 29 knots and changed course, leaving for Vestfjord / Bogen. In the Rösselsprung operation, after the discovery of the Tirpitz group of our and the British submarines (as well as the SF reconnaissance aircraft), it was the danger of getting attacked by the Victories that made the Germans turn around and go back to base.
      The enemy aircraft carrier = you have to drop everything and leave. smile
      1. +1
        13 February 2018 21: 42
        Of course. Another "golden bullet" (a completely idiotic definition, but essentially true), like "Bismarck" - and very goodbye. Which they were afraid of. And they got it in the case of Scharnhorst ... The Germans could not "openly" risk their last real capital capital. Although the "classics of the genre," he fully demonstrated, to be honest
  46. +1
    13 February 2018 13: 12
    Quote: Lev Bronsch
    Could German industry at all build the necessary number of raiders and battleships with escort squadrons to unconditionally solve the tasks indicated as priorities for Germany in WWII?

    For action on communications, a large submarine fleet was needed, and not battleships and cruisers. Underwater miners could block the British shipping in 1939-40. For the protection of the coast and the assistance of the ground forces, more boats and small submarines were to be beaten and they would also be used as miner loaders.
    1. 0
      13 February 2018 15: 22
      Quote: Kostadinov
      For action on communications, a large submarine fleet was needed, and not battleships and cruisers.

      No chance. The Germans do not build "big pots" => the British are cutting back on aircraft construction programs and transferring funds to PLO (good that their technologies and projects have remained with PMA - you just need to screw ASDIC, radar and huff-duff onto the old hull). Taking into account the fact that one “seven” is worth like three “flowers” ​​- the Germans will not win the race in this variant either.
      Quote: Kostadinov
      For the protection of the coast and the assistance of the ground forces, more boats and small submarines were to be beaten and they would also be used as miner loaders.

      Yeah ... what is small forces against KR well showed the battle of a pair of British KRL - Glasgow and Enterprise - against German EM and MM.
    2. 0
      15 February 2018 19: 42
      Thank you, appreciated your answer and myself think too!
  47. +1
    13 February 2018 21: 19
    Andrey from Chelyabinsk,
    They had no other choice, alas
  48. 0
    14 February 2018 12: 35
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Quote: Kostadinov
    In the Arctic theater, where England and Germany fought the "last" war, large armored artillery reservations are more useful than aircraft carriers.

    The Germans thought otherwise - in the Sportpalast operation, the Tirpitz, at the sight of the reconnaissance Albacore, immediately increased its speed to 29 knots and changed course, leaving for Vestfjord / Bogen. In the Rösselsprung operation, after the discovery of the Tirpitz group of our and the British submarines (as well as the SF reconnaissance aircraft), it was the danger of getting attacked by the Victories that made the Germans turn around and go back to base.
    The enemy aircraft carrier = you have to drop everything and leave. smile

    1. In the afternoon, in good weather, it’s better to go to the base when the enemy has superiority in large ships plus an aircraft carrier. If the battleships did not hit, but only the British aircraft carrier, there are very big doubts that Tirpitz or Scharnhorst left. At this theater, the aircraft carriers did not sink a single battleship, but the battleships managed to sink the aircraft carrier with artillery fire.
    2. In the Arctic theater, sunny weather and less than 4 points a wave only "once a year" (approximately 20% of the time). Therefore, the rest of the time (for example, the New Year’s battle in December 1942), no aircraft carrier could help. Light cruisers had to save the convoy.
    3. In the area of ​​German aviation on land, aircraft carriers, at least until the end of 1943, avoided entering. They did not want to repeat the fate of Elastries. In the area of ​​dominance of their aircraft, German battleships passed through the La Manche in 1942.
  49. +1
    14 February 2018 12: 58
    Quote: Alexey RA
    No chance. The Germans do not build "big pots" => the British are cutting back on aircraft construction programs and transferring funds to PLO (good that their technologies and projects have remained with PMA - you just need to screw ASDIC, radar and huff-duff onto the old hull). Taking into account the fact that one “seven” is worth like three “flowers” ​​- the Germans will not win the race in this variant either.

    The effectiveness of the British PLO until the end of 1942 is well known. So one seven will be better than three PLO ships in this period. In addition, I meant not only sevens, but much more deuces and torpedo boats with contactless mines in the coastal waters of the British Isles in 1939-40. British PLO in this case will be even more ineffective.
  50. 0
    14 February 2018 13: 05
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Yeah ... what a small force against the Kyrgyz Republic showed well the battle of a pair of British KRL - Glasgow and Enterprise - against the German EM and MM.

    Look at the general statistics of all the battles of light forces, including the TCA, the Germans and the British (although the LKR is somewhat heavier) until about the end of 1943, and not just one single battle takes. One battle proves nothing.
  51. +2
    15 February 2018 05: 01
    And what, I wonder, was their “strategic genius” in relation to the seas and oceans? This is me regarding the title of the article, which in itself is not the worst... Even very good... Strategy is a choice. The Germans had no choice. So they could only have one strategy (at sea) - how to drown most effectively with a reserve of efficiency. I'm talking about NK. The concept of cruising warfare could justify itself (and almost did) in the first year or two (well, three) - then, excuse me, it was screwed. But this is not a strategy...
    Disputes over transcriptions are one of the last places... “Bismarck” is read the same way, but his “colleague”? Either "Tirpitz" or "Tirpitz", for example. And not only the Germans. Let's turn to the Japanese or the Chinese... And then we won't even see the forest for three trees, because you can chat about any topic, even a very interesting one..
    Andrey, if you allow (only after your consent), I will try to squeeze this article of yours into the military historical society at the Central Military Museum. Guardians of the “homeland of elephants” like Dadonov “sit” there - it’s useful for them to read something like that. I'm not sure what will benefit them, but that's their problem.
    1. +1
      15 February 2018 08: 27
      Quote: Irina Grafova
      And what, I wonder, was their “strategic genius” in relation to the seas and oceans?

      Dear Irina, it is not written “strategic genius”, but “gloomy Teutonic strategic genius”, which gives the phrase an ironic character. And so the Germans had some kind of choice - they could, for example, limit themselves to coastal defense and not climb where they shouldn’t climb :))))) On the other hand, they had Plan Z and they came up with a way to use fleet, somewhat different from the classic pitched battle. Not by much, but still.
      Quote: Irina Grafova
      Andrey, if you allow (only after your consent), I will try to squeeze this article of yours into the military historical society at the Central Military Museum.

      No problem, I don't mind at all. Sorry for the stupid question, but what is it?
      Quote: Irina Grafova
      Historical Society at CVMM
      1. +1
        15 February 2018 11: 13
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        limit yourself to coastal defense and not climb where you don’t need to climb :)))))

        And why then would the British take them seriously and sign new treaties as part of the policy of appeasement? To force the British to back down, it is necessary to create at least some kind of threat to them at sea.
        1. +1
          15 February 2018 11: 25
          Quote: brn521
          And why then would the British take them seriously and sign new treaties as part of the policy of appeasement?

          Because of their actions in Europe, of course. At sea in the 30s, Germany did not pose a threat to the British
          1. 0
            15 February 2018 12: 24
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            At sea in the 30s, Germany did not pose a threat to the British

            In this case, building the Deutschlands would be a mistake. But the British took these ships seriously and, it seems, even tried to get excited about the topic of the Germans exceeding the Versailles restrictions when launching these ships.
            1. +1
              15 February 2018 17: 51
              This is not about mistakes, but about the fact that the Germans had a choice of different strategies.
              1. +1
                15 February 2018 18: 09
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                The Germans had a choice of different strategies.

                And what is the second one that could somehow attract the attention of the British? In any direct clash the Germans would have been pelted with hats.
      2. +1
        15 February 2018 16: 15
        Central Naval Museum
  52. +1
    15 February 2018 06: 12
    What is "Tsushima syndrome"? If a couple of years ago I didn’t fit into the garage, then I must have “garage syndrome”?
    As old Napoleon used to say (if I’m not mistaken), defeats are the basis of victories... What I mean is that the horrific pogrom at Tsushima, in the end, did not make anyone stronger. We (the “Russians”) received the 17th year (we won’t go into the background, okay?), Japan - the 41st year. It seems like there is a big time difference... And the result?
  53. 0
    15 February 2018 10: 30
    Why didn't they finish off Exeter?
    [quote]]After the Exeter disappeared into the smoke, Harewood’s light cruisers were left alone against the “pocket battleship,” which was now firing at them with both calibers. [/quote]

    Andrey writes:
    [quote]Usually, when analyzing a particular naval battle, they talk about some mistakes made by commanders at one time or another, but Langsdorff’s entire battle, starting at 06.25, was one big mistake. [/quote]
    And he suggests concentrating fire on one of the LCRs, forgetting that the LCRs easily evade fire at a long distance and have the ability to carry out a torpedo attack from a short distance (which is what happened at 7:27).

    Having completed a wide turn to the east at about 6.52, Achilles and Ajax were now following directly behind Spee, reaching a speed of 31 knots and gradually catching up with the enemy. Fire from both sides from a distance of 85 - 90 kbt became ineffective, partly due to the fact that only half of the guns were firing (the bow turrets of the British and the stern turret of the “pocket battleship”).

    At 6.55 Harewood ordered a 30° turn to port, bringing all artillery into action.
    After 2 minutes, British shells covered the enemy. Langsdorff used the same technique of “hunting for volleys,” changing course by 15°–20° every minute, and at about 7.00 he set up a smoke screen. [/quote]

    Shortly after 7.10, the Exeter again appeared from the south, to which the main caliber fire had to be transferred.

    [quote]Constant shifts of the sight and maneuvers could not but affect the shooting results: in 40 minutes of battle, from 6.45 to 7.25, not a single German shell hit.

    Meanwhile, the 6-inch shells of the light cruisers began to cause significant damage to the Graf Spee.
    One of them pierced the thin 10-mm hull of the 150-mm installation No. 3 on the starboard side, destroying almost all the servants and putting the gun out of action.
    A training shell (a blank without an explosive charge) fired from the Achilles in the heat of battle hit the forecastle fracture area, killed two sailors, pierced through several cabins and got stuck in the non-commissioned officers' quarters.

    Several hits occurred in the tower-like superstructure. One of the shells exploded under the upper fire control station, killing two sailors and mortally wounding Lieutenant Grigat, the only German officer killed in the battle of La Plata. It was literally a miracle that the wiring survived, and the Spee managed to avoid the fate of the Exeter. Another shell casually demolished the right rangefinder on the bridge, scattered the ammunition of the 37-mm mount and exploded directly on the gyroscope of the anti-aircraft artillery fire control devices.
    The weakly armored feed of the bow group of the 150-mm guns failed, finally reducing their firing to nothing.

    However, the most serious consequences were the cessation of communication with the director and the rangefinder post on the bow superstructure.[/quote]
    [b]According to the memoirs of Art. Lieutenant Razenak, the order to transfer fire to another light cruiser simply did not reach the rangefinder personnel, who continued to display the distance to the Ajax.
    Naturally, all the data for adjusting the fire turned out to be incorrect. “Spee” found itself in the same situation as “Ajax” and “Achilles” when they had a communication mismatch with the spotter aircraft.

    Noticing a decrease in the effectiveness of enemy fire, Harewood turned left at 7.10, again limiting the angles of fire with the bow turrets. According to British data, “Spee” set up smoke screens twice over the course of 8 minutes and continuously maneuvered.
    1. +1
      15 February 2018 10: 38
      At 7.22 the distance according to the Ajax rangefinder was only 54 kbt. The 1st Division turned slightly to the right as 11-inch salvoes began to cover the cruisers
      After 7.16, at least 9 shells fell in the immediate vicinity of the flagship.
      And at 7.25 came the reckoning for courage: a 280-mm shell pierced the barbette of the Ajax’s elevated aft turret, completely disabling it, and hit the next barbette, jamming it too. The ship lost its stern artillery group; in addition, one of the feeds in turret “B” (the elevated bow) failed. "Ajax" was left with 3 combat-ready guns, and the commander of the detachment ordered to turn 4 points to the north.
      At 7.31 a report was received from the plane about torpedo tracks ahead of us. Indeed, the Spee was in an excellent situation to use its torpedo tubes, conveniently located in the stern, however, according to German data, it only managed to fire one torpedo, since at that moment (7.17) Langsdorff made a sharp “turn” to the left, avoiding the mythical British torpedo salvo
      (who will say that he was wrong?).
      In fact, Ajax fired 4 torpedoes from the left tube only at 7.27. Avoiding torpedoes (or a single torpedo?), both cruisers turned to port almost 90° between 7.32 and 7.34.
      1. +1
        15 February 2018 10: 46
        At 7.28, according to English data, the “pocket battleship” set up a smoke curtain and made another zigzag with a diameter of approximately 10-12 kbt, which was followed by another curtain and a turn to the stop. (a minute earlier Ajax fired 4 torpedoes)
        As a result, the cruisers, which were on a much straighter course, at 7.34 approached the minimum distance in battle - 40 kbt, being directly behind the stern of the Spee.

        But the confusion with targets for the main caliber was over, and the battleship’s fire became accurate again.
        At 7.34, fragments from a nearby explosion demolished the top of the Ajax mast with all the antennas. Harewood felt that he "smelled like something was cooking."
        The bridge received disappointing information: only 3 guns were in action, and no more than 20% of the ammunition remained for them.
        Although the Achilles was in a much more combat-ready state, the commander could not help but think that only 1 hour and 20 minutes had passed since the start of the battle, that now it was only early morning, the enemy “showed the stern” and over the next 20 minutes it will be invulnerable to torpedoes, of which, by the way, there are not so many left. Under these conditions, it is difficult to count on inflicting heavy damage on the “battleship,” which has retained good speed and the ability to shoot accurately.
        At 7.42 Harewood ordered a smoke screen and a westerly course.


        SO WHO WON THE FIGHT?
        Why on earth did Langsdorff lose it? He saved the ship from critical damage - he took it away from a torpedo attack. Damaged Ajax and Exeter.
        1. +1
          15 February 2018 10: 56
          But Langsdorff also showed no inclination to continue the battle.
          The reports he received from combat posts were also not optimistic.
          Ammunition consumption was approaching 70%, water penetrated into the hull through holes from three shells and many fragments, the speed had to be reduced to 22 knots. "Spee" continued to follow an eastern course, and under the cover of an English smoke screen, the opponents quickly dispersed. An observer from a British plane later recalled that from the air the picture looked somewhat fantastic: as if on command, the three ships turned around and ran away from each other in different directions!


          Harewood quickly realized that the enemy would not pursue him, and at 7.54 he turned around and headed after him. (as having an advantage in speed, and therefore in choosing the combat distance - a completely justified decision).
          He ordered Achilles to take a position astern of Spee in the right quarter, and Ajax in the left quarter. The “pocket battleship” was now escorted by light cruisers, who, however, kept at a considerable distance.
          A careless attempt by the Achilles to get closer to 10 miles at about 10.00 gave the opportunity to the Spee to fire 3 salvos, the last of which landed just 50 m from the pursuer’s side. The cruiser was forced to turn sharply.


          A former torpedo specialist, the Spee commander clearly did not want a night battle. Although the “pocket battleship” had a radar, its coverage area was limited to the bow corners; Moreover, it was impossible to say with certainty that the enemy did not have the same device (then separation at night became impossible).
          Artillery fire at short ranges could be effective on both sides. “Spee” had a chance to sink one of the enemies with just a couple of salvos, but at the same time it could receive a barrage of 6-inch shells, after which a safe return home became extremely problematic.
          The opportunity to hide in the dark was balanced by the probability of receiving an enemy torpedo from several cables, which also finally decided the fate of the raider. A night fight is always to a certain extent a lottery, which Langsdorff wanted to avoid.
          1. +1
            15 February 2018 11: 02
            From a purely technical point of view, the battle of La Plata can be considered a victory for the “pocket battleship.”
            The two 203-mm and eighteen 152-mm shells that hit him did not cause fatal damage. The Spee's main artillery remained fully operational: despite three direct 6-inch hits on the turrets, the solid armor was so reliable that they did not even temporarily stop firing. Light artillery suffered more severely: one 150 mm gun was completely out of action, and the ammunition supply lifts to others were damaged. Of the three 105 mm installations, only one remains in operation. There were also minor floods through holes in the plating in the bow, but the ship had no list or trim, and its power was in perfect order. Of the nearly 1200 crew, 1 officer and 35 enlisted men were killed, and another 58 suffered wounds or poisoning, most of them minor.


            The British suffered much more severely. The Exeter was completely out of action, losing only 5 officers and 56 sailors killed. Another 11 people died on light cruisers. By the end of the battle, the artillery power of Harewood’s detachment had more than halved, and the most combat-ready Achilles had only 360 shells left. The British only had 10 torpedoes left.


            Harewood, whose cruisers took up positions in two possible passages from Montevideo, estimated his chances of delaying the “pocket battleship” if it went to sea the next day as 1:4 (obviously relying on a successful torpedo attack.


            So, while supporting the technical assessment of the Deutschland class raider project given by Andrey, I cannot share his conclusion about the allegedly incorrect actions of Commander Count Spee Langsdorff.

            Known materials allow us to conclude that Lansdorff emerged from the battle, if not a winner, then not a defeated one, and there was very little chance of blocking him in Montevideo.
            1. 0
              15 February 2018 14: 26
              Quote: DimerVladimer
              Why on earth did Langsdorff lose it?

              He had two possible options. Make a profitable trade by sinking the cruiser in exchange for the damage received. Or run away. The exchange didn't work out. It was not possible to escape. As a result, the ship is at the bottom. At the same time, the task of the British was to detain the raider, inflicting sufficient damage on it. This is actually why they risked their ships so much. Especially Exeter, which did not so much maneuver as shoot, because... only its caliber was sufficiently effective. The British completed their task. Raider his - no. Who has won? 100% English.
              Quote: DimerVladimer
              According to English data, “Spee” set up smoke screens twice over the course of 8 minutes and continuously maneuvered

              Like some light cruiser in a similar situation, which is not normal.
              Quote: DimerVladimer
              And he suggests focusing fire on one of the LCRs

              Where is this? The author writes the following:
              “What should Langsdorff have done? Continue on the same course and speed, allowing his gunner, who found the Exeter, to complete the job he had so successfully begun and destroy the largest ship of the British - for this it would have been enough to achieve just a few more hits.”
              Risky because... he, in turn, was groped by LKr. But what is the armor for?
              Quote: DimerVladimer
              Shortly after 7.10, the Exeter again appeared from the south, to which the main caliber fire had to be transferred.

              That's it. Three cruisers for Spee with his installation of main battery artillery is a bit much, which is what the British actually counted on. At the same time, Exeter also has a real caliber, capable of reaching the raider’s guts through the armor. It was necessary to take risks and put an end to Exeter at the beginning of the battle. Actually, for this reason, so much of the then “electronics” was hung on Spee so that he could kill any cruiser in the shortest possible time.
              Quote: DimerVladimer
              Harewood estimated his chances of delaying the “pocket battleship” if it went to sea the next day as 1:4 (obviously relying on a successful torpedo attack.

              What was the chance that he would even go to sea the next day? Even the allotted three days for preparation was not enough for the Germans.
              Quote: DimerVladimer
              Known materials allow us to conclude that Lansdorff emerged from the battle, if not victorious, then not defeated

              He stopped raiding; he didn’t even touch the English ship he met on the way to Montevideo. The British completed their task.
              Or are we talking about some subcategories? For example, the battle of the brig "Mercury" with the Turks. Officially, Mercury won. The captain of the brig wanted to escape and he succeeded, at the same time showing the qualitative superiority of the Russian fleet over the Turkish one. But in fact it suffered such damage that the brig was unfit for further service. In this situation, the Turks won, disabling one of the units of the Russian fleet.
              1. +1
                15 February 2018 14: 32
                Quote: brn521
                The British completed their task. Raider his - no. Who has won? 100% English.


                Let's clarify that the British fleet sank the Spee? No. Caused damage incompatible with continued raiding? - partly.
                British counterintelligence had a hand in the sinking of the Spee.

                If Langsdorf had been more cold-blooded, he would have broken the blockade with a huge probability of 75%. It was precisely feeling his guilt in this that he shot himself.
                He showed himself brilliantly as a commander, but turned out to be a pawn in the hands of counterintelligence, which is not acceptable for the commander of a warship - his first fault was a formulaic tactic that allowed him to figure out the raiding area and drag himself into battle, the second was to sink a warship that could fight.
                1. 0
                  15 February 2018 15: 50
                  Quote: DimerVladimer
                  Caused damage incompatible with continued raiding? - partly.

                  How much? In this way, Langsdorf is turning into some kind of pest. Allegedly, he could do what the British were afraid of - offer them a joint trip across the Atlantic at 20 knots. As a result, they would quickly become exhausted and fall behind. But he didn’t want to, so he went to get it repaired.
                  Quote: DimerVladimer
                  If Langsdorf had been more cold-blooded, he would have broken the blockade with a high degree of probability - 75%

                  Breaking the blockade is not enough. We still need to hide, and then get to the desired point across the ocean. For this to become possible, it was necessary to show composure even earlier, in battle with cruisers, and maintain faith in the capabilities of one’s own ship.
                  Quote: DimerVladimer
                  He showed himself brilliantly as a commander

                  What exactly is the shine?
                  Quote: DimerVladimer
                  his first fault was the formulaic tactics that made it possible to calculate the raiding area

                  He was never found. He showed up himself. If he had had another seaplane, they would never have found him. It’s tempting to remove some of the armor for the sake of a second aircraft. Since this armor did not really help Langsdorf and he began to run in zigzags, like some kind of light cruiser.
                  Quote: DimerVladimer
                  the second is to sink a warship that could fight.

                  Here the management has already decided. If they had ordered to kill themselves about Rinaun, they would have killed.
                  Quote: DimerVladimer
                  Let's clarify that the British fleet sank the Spee? No.

                  When a destroyer or submarine hits a battleship with a torpedo, after which it limps away for repairs instead of completing its combat mission, is this a victory? The battleship was never sunk, “only” the combat mission was disrupted.
  54. 0
    15 February 2018 16: 58
    Quote: DimerVladimer
    Let's clarify that the British fleet sank the Spee? No. Caused damage incompatible with continued raiding? - partly. British counterintelligence had a hand in the sinking of Spee. If Langsdorf had been more cold-blooded, he would have broken the blockade with a huge probability of 75%. It was precisely feeling his guilt in this that he shot himself. He showed himself brilliantly as a commander, but turned out to be a pawn in the hands of counterintelligence, which is not acceptable for the commander of a warship - his first fault was a formulaic tactic, which allowed him to calculate the raiding area and drag himself into battle, the second - sink a warship that could fight.

    1. Without the kind assistance of British ships, one cannot think that Spee went to the bottom. The fact that they forced him to drown himself is an even greater victory for them.
    2. Spee could not even think about any continuation of the raiding. Without British ships he could only return home, but their presence made his tactical situation hopeless.
    3. If he managed to break the blockade, he would have to “jointly sail” with two British LCRs, then with another TKR and finally with a battle cruiser, so Spee had zero chance of surviving. And this was a consequence of its insufficient speed for a raider - 28 knots, but in reality no more than 25 as a result of raiding and even less as a result of damage in battle. In other words, Spee had no chance because it was a bad ship for raiding.
    As a large gunboat closer to the shore, it could be used, but for this purpose it was very expensive and had an unnecessarily long cruising range.
    1. 0
      15 February 2018 18: 28
      Quote: Kostadinov
      And this was a consequence of its insufficient speed for a raider - 28 knots, but in reality no more than 25

      In reality, 20 knots, which he could maintain on diesel engines without problems, and cruisers at this speed burned through their fuel reserves in 3-4 days. This is actually why the British sacrificed their cruisers and got into close combat. Spee could have immediately rushed to run away as soon as he realized that these were not escorts for transports, but search engines-hunters after his soul. Well, if he had not lost his plane long before that, it would not have been found at all. In reality, there were only three search groups, one of which was really lucky that the blinded raider not only showed up himself, but also took the fight. He also maneuvered and transferred fire from target to target, which allowed him to at least somehow equalize the chances.
  55. 0
    15 February 2018 23: 24
    Quote: DimerVladimer
    If Langsdorf had been more cold-blooded, he would have broken the blockade with a high degree of probability - 75%

    I wonder how you managed to determine what exactly 75% is?

    I will not talk again about the damage the Spee has already received in La Plata. But let me remind you that at the exit of the Spee three cruisers are again waiting. Two KRL and one SRT. And in the raider’s cellars there are about 200 main battery shells left over. For 40 minutes of battle. Above, Andrey calculated that “Spee” showed a hit percentage of 1.69%. This means that you can hope for about 3 more hits by using up the remaining main battery. Do you think three hits will be enough to sink three British cruisers? What do you plan to do in the 45th minute of the battle when the shells run out and the guns go silent?
  56. The comment was deleted.

"Right Sector" (banned in Russia), "Ukrainian Insurgent Army" (UPA) (banned in Russia), ISIS (banned in Russia), "Jabhat Fatah al-Sham" formerly "Jabhat al-Nusra" (banned in Russia) , Taliban (banned in Russia), Al-Qaeda (banned in Russia), Anti-Corruption Foundation (banned in Russia), Navalny Headquarters (banned in Russia), Facebook (banned in Russia), Instagram (banned in Russia), Meta (banned in Russia), Misanthropic Division (banned in Russia), Azov (banned in Russia), Muslim Brotherhood (banned in Russia), Aum Shinrikyo (banned in Russia), AUE (banned in Russia), UNA-UNSO (banned in Russia), Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people (banned in Russia), Legion “Freedom of Russia” (armed formation, recognized as terrorist in the Russian Federation and banned), Kirill Budanov (included to the Rosfinmonitoring list of terrorists and extremists)

“Non-profit organizations, unregistered public associations or individuals performing the functions of a foreign agent,” as well as media outlets performing the functions of a foreign agent: “Medusa”; "Voice of America"; "Realities"; "Present time"; "Radio Freedom"; Ponomarev Lev; Ponomarev Ilya; Savitskaya; Markelov; Kamalyagin; Apakhonchich; Makarevich; Dud; Gordon; Zhdanov; Medvedev; Fedorov; Mikhail Kasyanov; "Owl"; "Alliance of Doctors"; "RKK" "Levada Center"; "Memorial"; "Voice"; "Person and law"; "Rain"; "Mediazone"; "Deutsche Welle"; QMS "Caucasian Knot"; "Insider"; "New Newspaper"