Errors of British shipbuilding. The battle cruiser "Invinsible". H. 3

50
So, in the previous articles of the series, we identified the sources of problems and strengths of the invincible battlecruisers. The weakness of the reservation was directly determined by the design traditions of British armored cruisers, which were originally intended to deal with ocean raiders and had protection only against medium-caliber artillery. However, at some point (when designing the Duke of Edinburgh armored cruisers), the British admirals decided that it would be nice to form a “high-speed wing” from them to participate in the squadron battle against the German battleships. And it cannot be said that this was a very bad idea, because at that time most of these battleships carried relatively weak 240-mm guns, which in their capabilities did not exceed the 203-mm guns of other countries, the impact of which the British cruisers were more- less protected. But soon the Kaiserlichmarin replenished ships with 280-mm artillery, against which the reservation of the Warriors and Minotaurs no longer defended, and the British remained with the desire to use armored cruisers in a squadron battle. At the same time, for some reason, no one thought about the lack of armor. Thus, the weakness of the defense of the British battlecruisers is not an invention of D. Fisher, but a consequence of the Admiralty’s policy pursued even before he became the first sea lord. This, however, does not detract from the responsibility of D. Fisher for the features of his "cats." In October 1904, five days before this extraordinary man in any respect received his highest post, as part of the German fleet "Braunschweig" entered - a squadron battleship on which the Germans returned to the 280-mm main caliber. But D. Fisher did not react to this in any way, believing speed the best defense of an armored cruiser, and the British cruisers were quite fast.

If the weak booking of the battle cruisers was not D. Fisher’s invention, then the use of the “battleship” 305-mm caliber on them should be credited to him, although news of Japanese armored cruisers with twelve-inch guns pushed him to this. And the need to ensure 25-nodal speed resulted from the Admiralty’s assumptions about the presence of armored cruisers with 24 knot speed in other countries, which made 25 nodes for the newest British ships of the same class look reasonable minimum.



The poorly known, almost “rhombic” location of the main-caliber guns, in which firing all eight guns onto one side was impossible, was caused both by the desire to provide strong fire in the bow, the stern and on sharp course corners, which is very important for the cruiser, and the British did not understand features of artillery combat on 60-90 cables, i.e. distances at which the battlecruisers actually fought in the First World War. During the design of Invincibles, the British did not even know how to shoot cables at 25-30 and believed that future naval battles would take place on 30, the maximum is 40 cables, hardly any further. It must be said that the members of the Design Committee were not thrilled by the inability of the new cruisers to use all the artillery for one purpose, but did not find a way, retaining the ship’s lines required to reach 25 units, place them differently - for example, moving the “traversing” towers to extremities.

Having finally decided on the main characteristics of the future battlecruiser - 8 * 305 guns, 25 nodes, and booking "like the" Minotaur "- the British started designing.

Reservation

Strangely enough, but the chief designer "did not obey" the technical task, which is why armor protection, in comparison with the latest armored cruisers of the "Minotaur" type, was significantly improved.




The basis for the protection of "Invincible" and "Minotaur" was 152 mm citadel. Here are just 152-mm armor-belt "Minotaur" covered only the engine and boiler rooms (and at the same time - the artillery shell of the 190-mm guns towers, placed on the sides). In the bow and stern of the armor belt, the same 152 mm traverses closed. Accordingly, the main thing weapons “Minotaur” - 234-mm tower, located outside the citadel, in the extremities, which protected only 102-mm armor in the bow and 76-mm - in the stern. At the same time, at Invincible, the 152-mm armor belt covered all the towers of the main caliber, only the stern slightly “protruded” behind the armor belt, but from its edge to the barbet of the tower 152 mm traverse went, smoothly turning into 178 mm barbet. The front beam has a thickness of 178 mm. Thus, although the vertical booking of the British cruisers' citadels was rather conditional, at least at Invincible it protected all the towers of the main caliber, which was an undoubted advantage. The bow of the battlecruiser received 102 mm armor, but the stern was not armored at all, which is perhaps the only drawback of Invincible compared to the Minotaur. On the other hand, it is obvious that the savings obtained as a result of not protecting the stern (and 76 mm of armor could only cover it up from fragments of heavy projectiles) were used by the British to strengthen the citadel, which looks quite reasonable.

Horizontal protection included two "layers". The armored belts of both cruisers reached by their upper edges to the main deck, which the Minotaur defended as much as 18 mm armor within the citadel and 25 mm outside it. In Invincible, the exact opposite, 25 mm armor and 19 mm were installed over the citadel in the bow, and the food was not completely protected. At the same time, over the cellar areas of the first three towers (except fodder), as well as over the central post, the armored hull thickened to 50 mm - however, it is not clear whether this additional protection was initially, or whether it concerns the state of the ships after the Jutland battle. The author of the article is inclined to believe that 50 mm protection was originally.

The armor (lower) deck of both cruisers was located at the level of the waterline (horizontal part) and had identical thicknesses within the citadel - 38 mm in the horizontal part and 50 mm bevels going to the lower edges of the armor belts. But for Invincible, the same armored form continued into the nose, but for the Minotaur in the nose with bevels of the same thickness, the horizontal part had only 18 mm. In the rear, the bevels and the horizontal part of the Invincible armored deck had increased protection up to 63,5 mm, which, in fact, alone covered the steering devices. In the Minotaur, it is unclear, probably the horizontal part was protected with 38 mm armor, and the bevels either 50 or 38 m, but taking into account the vertical 76 mm armor belt, the food was better protected.

But on the "Invincibles" local booking of cellars was applied - from the side of the boards they received 63,5 mm bulkheads. However, only from the sides - from the shells that pierced the armored deck along the ship hull, these bulkheads did not protect. The British themselves saw in them protection from underwater explosions, i.e. torpedoes, because there was no serious PTZ at the Invincibles.

Thus, to hit the Minotaur or Invincible's engine room or boiler room, the enemy projectile would have to overcome the 152 mm belt and the 50 mm bevel. But in order for the projectile to “reach out” to the artillery cellars of the main caliber of the Invincibles in a battle on parallel courses, it had to penetrate not only the 152 board and 50 mm bevel, but also the additional 63,5 mm protection.

Errors of British shipbuilding. The battle cruiser "Invinsible". H. 3


At the same time, the 234-mm cellars of the Minotaur's projectiles and charges were defended with only 102 mm board and 50 m bevel (in the nose) and 76 mm board and 50 mm, or even 38 mm bevel.

But the towers and barbets had a similar vertical protection 178 mm, while the barbety of the specified thickness reached the main deck. The exception here was only a part of the barbet of the Invincible aft tower, not covered by 152 mm by means of a beam - it kept the thickness of 178 mm up to the armored deck). But below the main deck, the barbets lost much in defense. In the interval between the main and armored decks, the 234 mm barbats of the Minotaur towers had 76 mm (bow) and 178-102 mm (stern) and the 190 mm barbets of the towers - 50 mm. At Invincibles, all the barbets between these decks were only 50 mm thick. However, the protection of these parts of the barbets from the fire at the Minotaur and Invincible was quite comparable. In order to hit the flow tube of the nose tower, the projectile had to punch 102 mm onboard armor and 76 mm barbet at the Minotaur, in total - 178 mm of armor, and at Invinsible - 152 mm board or 178 mm traces and, after that , 50 mm barbet, i.e. total protection was 203-228 mm. The aft feed tube was defended by the Minotaur better - 76 mm board and 102-178 barbet, i.e. in aggregate 178-254 and armor, in Invincible - 178 mm or 152 mm traverse + 50 mm barbet, i.e. 178-203 mm.

Interestingly, all the sources of the chorus argue about the perfect insufficiency of the horizontal booking of British battlecruisers. From the source and source, the dialogue of captain Mark Kerr, the commander of the completed Invincible and the main builder Philippe Watts, held in 1909 g, “roams”:

“... when the construction of Invincible on Tyne was about to end, to see Kerr, he was visited by Philip Watts. Among other issues discussed by Kerr, Watts drew attention to the fact that, in his opinion, the distance at which “battles will be fought, or somehow begins with 15 000 yards (a little more than 74 cables),” will pass over the armored barbet (here, under the barbet, Kerr meant armor belt - approx. aut) and pierce the deck "and explode," hitting straight down into the ammunition cellar, resulting in an explosion that will destroy the ship "


According to Kerr Watts, he replied that he "knows about this danger," but:

“Admiralty requirements provided only protection against flat fire at a distance of approximately 9 000 yards (around 45 crawler — approx. Auto)”, in which the projectile has a flat trajectory and will fall into the ship with a small angle to the horizontal plane, and “at the highest limit displacement around 17 000 t lack of sufficient weight did not allow him to increase the thickness of deck armor, despite the understanding of the danger of hanging fire with large-caliber projectiles at 15 000 yards and more »


All this is in fact true ... and, at the same time, not so, because the same reproach can be addressed to any ship of those times. Invincible had 25 mm horizontal armor on the main deck and 38 mm on armor, total 63 mm, while the Dreadnought horizontal protection consisted of 19 mm main and 44 mm armor decks, i.e. in aggregate, all the same 63 mm. The German Nassau had only one armored deck, in the horizontal part, which had a 55 mm. True, the main deck had an 45 mm reservation, but only over dungeons (and probably around the bow and stern towers of the main caliber) i. was in fact mostly unarmored.

None of these defenses could help against a quality 305-mm projectile. If the 280-305-mm German armor-piercing “suitcase” fell into the 25 mm main deck, he usually overcame it without tearing - at least in most cases in the Jutland battle was exactly that. Naturally, the shell in 19 mm projectile would overcome with even greater ease. After passing inside the citadel, the projectile could detonate, hitting the deck in the 38 mm. As shown by the shelling of "Chesma" by Russian 305-mm armor-piercing shells, arr. 1911 g (470,9 kg), 37,5 mm of armor does not hold such a gap - a rather large hole is formed, and the space reserved is affected by fragments of the broken armored form and the shell itself.

As for the German 55 mm armor, then it is worth remembering the post-war, already Soviet tests of 305-mm and 356-mm shells, which took place in 1920. As it turned out, even 75 mm armor "does not hold" the projectile break if it came into contact with it: it can protect from the impact of a shock wave and fragments of an 305-mm projectile only if it exploded in 1-1,5 meters from the armor plate. Thus, a direct hit on the armored deck of the Nassau also did not bode well for the German ship. It would be a different matter if the shell would first hit the casemate roof - 45 mm armor would most likely cause the detonation of the shell, then the 55 mm armor deck had good chances to hold the fragments. Or at least a significant part of them.

Thus, the only thing that, perhaps, was the horizontal booking of Invincibles - the non-omission of shells in the form. Of course, there was a danger of burning fragments of engine rooms, boiler rooms and, of course, artillery cellars, but the chances of detonation of ammunition or ignition of gunpowder charges were still lower than when the projectile broke in the cellar. But from the penetration and rupture of the projectile inside the barbet booking "Invincibles" did not completely protect.

As we have said, the 25 mm deck did not prevent the penetration of the projectile into the citadel as a whole. But if, entering the citadel, 280-305-mm projectile fell into the British 50 mm barbet, he, of course, easily punched him and exploded inside the feed tube, which was not at all good. In this case, specially arranged valves in the reloading compartment could prevent the penetration of fire and energy of the explosion into the cellars, but the Germans introduced this innovation only as a result of the fighting at Dogger banks, the British did not have it in Jutland either.

Alas, the same could be said about the "Dreadnought". A heavy shell piercing the 19 mm deck hit the 100 mm barbet - with exactly the same result. Yes, the Nassau was not fully protected from such troubles - in the area below the main deck the barbettes of his guns had “spotted” protection with armor thickness from very impressive 200 mm, to completely unintelligible 50 mm (such armor was in places where shells hit was considered unlikely, for example, the back of the barbet facing the middle of the ship).

Thus, one can speak of the weakness of the Invincible barbets between the main and armored deck as the key vulnerability of the project, but how could this be fixed? Unless, having refused to reserve the main deck (or significantly reducing its thickness), make barbets of towers of the main caliber 178 mm thick all the way to the armor deck - but in this case the already weak horizontal armor became quite conditional…. And there were no other stocks. As we said above, when asked about the weakness of the horizontal defense, Philip Watts reminded Kerr of the Admiralty's requirement to protect the ship from the fire from the 45 cable range. But the British 305-mm guns of the battleships of the Nelson type, which were also installed on the Dreadnought and Invincible on the 37 cable, pierced armor equal to their own caliber, i.e. 305 mm. Against this background, 152 mm armor with 50 mm bevel looked after him ... well, let's say, such protection could help on 45 cable unless a miracle and if the projectile gets at a large angle to the armor, and even then it is unlikely. The vertical booking of the Invincibles made it possible to hope for something except the cables on the 70-80, but here the deck became extremely vulnerable.

In general, the following can be said about the defense - strangely enough, the Invincible managed to make a big step forward in comparison with the armored cruisers of all previous projects, but, of course, the defense didn’t meet the requirements of a squadron battle. Virtually all of it, that horizontal, that vertical, was a continuous vulnerability, in which, nevertheless, the weakness of booking barbets between the main and armored decks was particularly highlighted.

In the comments to the previous articles of this cycle, the opinion was repeatedly expressed that the protection of Invincible should be strengthened by increasing the displacement. This is certainly true, but in this matter one cannot ignore a certain inertia of thinking: the dogma that a cruiser cannot be larger than a battleship could not be overcome overnight.

In terms of size, "Invincible" and so was amazing. As we said earlier, the British built their battleships and armored cruisers so that they fit together. The last British armadillos of the Lord Nelson type had a normal displacement within 16 000 T. (16 090 T “Lord Nelson” and 15 925 “Agamemnon”), and the corresponding armored cruisers “Minotaur” - 14 600 T. or 91,25 “17” or XNNX 250. displacement armadillos. Invincible had a design normal displacement in 17 900 t, “Dreadnought is 96,37 25 t, i.e. the battle cruiser was already almost equal with the corresponding battleship (XNUMX%). And besides, it should be remembered that increasing the displacement, taking into account the speed requirement for XNUMX nodes, would require a more powerful power plant, while at Invincible at the time of laying it was the most powerful in the entire Royal Navy.

Artillery.

The main caliber "Invincible" was quite reliable 305-mm / 45 guns Mk X. These guns were developed in 1903 g and 386-kg fired a projectile with an initial speed of 831 m / s. At the time of their appearance, they had an approximate parity with the American 305-mm / 45 Mark 6, created in the same year and firing slightly heavier projectiles (394,6 kg) with a slightly lower initial speed (823 m / s). But the English gun was colossally superior to the newest German 280-mm / 40 SK L / 40 guns, created just a year earlier for the Braunschweig and Deutschland armadillos. France and Russia at that time still used twelve-inch guns, developed at the end of the last century, so that here the advantage of the British artillery system was indisputable. For its time, the 305-mm / 45 Mk X was an excellent gun, the problem was only that this time quickly passed. In the 1906-1910 period, all the leading fleets of the world developed new 305-mm guns, which the British Mk X conceded in all respects: as a result, Invinsible was opposed by German ships armed with 305-mm / 50 SK L / 50, shooting 405,5 - 405,9) kg shells with initial speed 855 m / s.


The guns of the cruiser "Indomiteble"


The range of the main caliber "Invincibles" was not determined by the capabilities of the weapon, but by the maximum angle of elevation for which their installations were designed. It was only 13,5 hail, which ensured the 80,7 cable range, and only in 1915-1916, when the battle cruiser of the battle cruisers was replenished with new projectiles, the firing range reached 93,8 cable. Of course, the vertical angle in 13,5 degrees is extremely small and is a drawback of the Invinsible type battle cruisers, but how can we blame the British, who at the time of the towers' construction assumed that 40-45 cables are a very large distance for a firefight?

Thus, the "Invincibles" were armed with quite modern guns of the main caliber, but by the First World War they were already outdated. And although it was not the designers who were to blame for this, but technical progress, the British sailors had to fight a much better armed enemy.

As for the tower installations, it is not so simple. The same type of Invincible and Inflexible and Indomiteble received the standard for the Royal Navy hydraulic system: all the movement of the towers was provided by hydraulics. But at the "Invincible", as an experiment, it was decided to put all-electric towers. Interestingly, the ship received towers of different designs from two different manufacturers: the bow and stern towers had Vickers machines, and the onboard, also called traversing, Armstrong. As a matter of fact, this alone could no longer be called the merits of the project ...

It must be said that the experiment ended in a deafening failure, but here, again, the manner of presentation of European historians is of interest. Here is how O. Parks writes about this:

“These installations were experimental and the results were not as good as with a hydraulic system to serve as a basis for their replacement. The tests of the facilities were carried out at the end of 1908, and after various experiments, the electrical mechanisms in 1914 g were replaced by hydraulic ones. ”


It would seem, well, what's wrong with that? We tried the novelty, made sure that the electrician did not demonstrate significant advantages and that the game was not worth the work, and returned to the old, proven solutions. Ordinary working moments ... But a detailed description of the “not so best” electric drives, compiled by A.Y. Fetter:

“Defects of the electric drive first appeared already during the first tests of guns held near the Isle of Wight in October 1908. One or the other of the hundreds of contacts in each tower refused. Each malfunction delayed, or completely stopped, the work of the towers, then the loading of guns. A strong concussion that occurred every time a huge cannon fired led to sharp discontinuous forces in delicate electrical circuits, causing short circuits and ruptures in a complex maze of wires, contacts, generators, etc. The situation was worsened by the fact that it was extremely difficult to find a place for such injuries. ”


The ship, of course, was immediately sent for revision of the tower mechanisms, and only five months later, in March, X. NUMX of Invincible re-entered artillery tests. It turned out that firms had corrected the identified defects, but now the mechanisms of horizontal and vertical tool laying were regularly failing. After that, the Invincible towers were examined by Admiralty officials and company representatives, and the examination revealed many shortcomings in the design of electric drives and all this required improvement. The ship returned to repair, but in the summer of the same year, numerous shortcomings again emerged.

O. Parks reports that Invincible entered into service in March 1908 g. But even in summer, only four 1909 gs from its eight main-caliber guns could shoot, and even those that were not at all the rate of fire recorded by them in passport. This situation was intolerable, and in August, 1909 from Invinsible was sent to the Portsmouth shipyard. It was assumed that by the third week of November the tower installations could be “brought to life”, but it soon became clear that the deadlines were too optimistic that the work would be completed only for the new year, but even then the Invincible towers continued to “delight” sailors and developers with new defects . As a result, the ship was able to bring 1910 to the main caliber firing only. Is it necessary to say that they too were a failure?

In March, 1911 G made the last attempt to bring the electrical drives to a working condition. The battlecruiser arrived in Portsmouth for a three-month repair, which Vickers and Armstrong had to pay out of pocket. Alas, after these alterations, nothing worked as it should, and the Admiralty sadly stated:

"The project of electrical equipment for the operation of towers, etc. defective on this ship, and it’s unbelievable that it will ever be in such a state as to work satisfactorily without redesign and replacement. ”


And this fiasco, this completely incapacitated equipment, O. Parks calls “not so good as to replace the hydraulic system with it” ?! The author of this article once again states: if the domestic historiography of recent decades has developed a manner of "repent of all sins" looking for all sorts of shortcomings of domestic ships (aircraft, tanks, training of troops, abilities of generals, etc. etc.), then Western sources very often circumvent their failures and mistakes, if not in silence, then retouch them, mentioning that even the biggest problems look like minor misunderstandings.

But back to Invincible. So, back in 1911 it became clear that it was impossible to bring the electric towers of the battle cruiser to mind - but only on 20 in March did 1912 decide to install time-tested hydraulic actuators at the Admiralty meeting: it was believed that this work could be done in 6 months, and the cost will be 150 thousand pounds sterling (after it, the cost of building Invincible will overtake Dreadnought) However, it turned out that the “Lady of the Seas” categorically did not have enough ships and Invincible was forced to go to emnoe sea, represent the interests of the UK. With a completely unusable main caliber artillery.

And only in December, 1913 Mr. "Invincible" returned to Portsmouth, and finally got up for such a long-awaited repair, which lasted for six, and eight months. But on the other hand, the battle cruiser got rid of electric drives and got hydraulics familiar to British sailors: alas, the fact that the towers were originally created for electricity played a cruel joke on the ship. Of course, the cruiser finally gained combat effectiveness, the new hydraulic actuators worked, but how? Artillery officer, Lieutenant Commander Invinsible Barry Bingham recalled:

“Accidents happen with fans and pipes that give leaks and continue to flow continuously. At my post in the tower "A" or bow, I received two mandatory sets of outer clothing, namely: a suit for protection against dirt and a Mac as a means from water from the valves, from which, as soon as pressure is applied, constantly lashes the flow, comparable only with an endless shower. ”


Gushing valves were discovered at the very first firing, which took place after the completion of the Invincible repair. The following firing took place on 25 August 1914 of the year (the war has been almost a month). Junior Lieutenant Stivart, the officer loading the guns in turret A, described hydraulics as follows:

"... everything that could not work properly with the hydraulic system did not work as it should."


In general, it can be stated that the result of the experiment with the electrician was that the first battlecruiser in the world actually had no efficient artillery for six and a half years of its service! By the way, be it said, the electric drives of the towers were not at all the transcendent apex of human genius - they were used both in the American and Russian fleets. So, for example, towers of battleships of the type “Andrew the First-Called” were completely electrified and there were no problems with their operation.

British shells of the main caliber ... strictly speaking, they are not an advantage or disadvantage of a project of a particular ship, and besides, they are worthy of a separate material, so we will mention their many "merits" in the next, final article of the cycle.

The Invincible mine action artillery was represented by sixteen 102-mm / 40 QF Mk guns. III, firing 11,3 kg (later - 14,1 kg) with a projectile with an initial speed of 722 (701) m / s. For its time, it was a very rational decision. The fact is that in England for a long time the 76-mm guns were considered sufficient to repel the attacks of the destroyers. Even the Dreadnought received exactly 76-mm anti-mine caliber and Invinsible was supposed to get the same guns on the project. But the Russian-Japanese war showed the fallacy of this decision, the British conducted experiments on the destroyer "Skate" in 1906 g and were convinced of this themselves. As a result, much more powerful 102-mm guns were installed already in the process of building on Invincible. At the time of the entry into service of the battlecruiser, it was probably the best caliber for mine artillery. However, closer to World War I, destroyers increased dramatically in size, and 102-mm guns were no longer enough for their reliable defeat. And again, as in the case of the 305-mm main caliber, it is not the developers who are to blame for their obsolescence, but the extraordinary pace of pre-war naval progress.

But if there are no complaints about the caliber and the number of mine action artillery barrels, their placement is rather doubtful. Eight guns were installed in the superstructures, four in the fore and aft, and it looked perfectly reasonable. But the remaining eight guns were located on the roofs of the towers of the main caliber, and it is completely unclear how the British were going to organize the supply of shells there? After all, it is obvious that no one will store several dozen shells in anticipation of a mine attack on the roof of the tower, and if so, it is necessary to organize a very fast delivery of these shells when the need arises.

Power plant

Fully justified all the expectations placed on her. It was expected that the ships would develop 25,5 nodes with 41 000 horsepower, but in fact Invincible developed the 46 500 hp, and its speed was 26,64 node. And this is despite the fact that, judging by the draft in the sources at the time of testing, the ship had a displacement greater than normal, and certainly in no case was not over-light. But the best performance "Invincible" showed, being transferred to the fleet, it was noted the achievement of 28 nodes (which looks a bit dubious, but nonetheless). In any case, at the time of entry into service, Invincible became the fastest cruiser in the world. In addition to power, his power plant was distinguished by reliability and, on the whole, would deserve the highest praise, but ...

The only drawback of the power plant was the mixed heating. The fact is that, unlike the same German ships (later built), the Invinsibles did not have separate oil boilers. The design assumed that the oil would be injected into the coal-fired boilers through nozzles, that is, both the coal and the oil would burn simultaneously in the cruisers. Such a scheme was used on ships of various countries, but the English didn’t work here again. The design of the injection of liquid fuel was very imperfect, demanded great skill from the firemen and was not mastered by the Royal Navy. For example, when trying to burn oil simultaneously with coal in a battle near the Falkland Islands, the formed clubs of thick black smoke interfered with Invinsible’s gunners and other ships' gunners.


Invincible in Falkland Battle


As a result, the battle cruisers refused to use oil at all, but what consequences did it have?

The total fuel supply of the Invincible-type battlecruisers of all three ships differed slightly, at the Invincible itself, it consisted of 3 000 tons of coal and 738 tons of oil. At the same time, the cruising range of the cruisers was 6020 - 6 110 miles by a fifteen-node course or 3 050-3 110 miles on 23 nodes. Refusal of oil led to a drop in range to 4 480 - 4 600 miles and 2 270 - 2 340 miles, respectively, which was not a good result for ships that were supposed to protect ocean communications. Armored cruisers of the “Minotaur” type had a range of 8 150 miles, though not fifteen, but only a ten-node course.

To be continued ...
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  1. +1
    7 February 2018 16: 07
    Yes, the British at the Falklands didn’t specifically "withdraw from allowance." Caught guard by superior forces, and "dragged" in full.
  2. +7
    7 February 2018 16: 36
    Andrey, thanks for the long-awaited continuation of the article.
    But it seems to me that it would be advisable to supplement it with information on the main opponents of the British LCR in the WWII - the German BrKR Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, as well as the first German LCR “Von der Tann” and “Moltke”
    1. 0
      8 February 2018 20: 49
      German battlecruisers are completely different ships, excellent combat vehicles, some of the ancestors of high-speed battleships. They deserve a separate cycle.
  3. +1
    7 February 2018 16: 39
    Interesting article. Thank.
  4. +1
    7 February 2018 16: 41
    Interestingly, only British shipbuilding will be criticized, or will the rest of the "shipbuilding" be executed?
    1. +2
      7 February 2018 21: 02
      In the next branch, the hotly beloved Oleg, the Japanese, from Andrei were already seized. So the respected author clearly has something else to say to the world :)
      1. +2
        8 February 2018 10: 19
        Quote: MooH
        In the next branch, the hotly beloved Oleg, the Japanese, from Andrey were already taken off.

        Nooo that you :))) But today in 15.00 Moscow time there will be one funny little article on pocket battleships ...
  5. +6
    7 February 2018 17: 27
    Thank you for the article.
    Despite the small number of pluses and comments, do not hesitate - there are much more grateful readers)
    1. +6
      7 February 2018 17: 55
      So Andrei’s articles are always interesting, another question is that opinions on them can be different - this is exactly what I like this author.
    2. +3
      8 February 2018 19: 28
      And thank you for your kind words! drinks
      1. +1
        8 February 2018 22: 49
        Drinking a lot is bad ... On the other hand ...
        Alcohol in moderate doses is useful in any quantity ...
        Your article (there is something to catch on for), but the most balanced ... What have I read here ... Respect from VMI from VMA
        1. +1
          9 February 2018 10: 13
          Quote: Irina Grafova
          Respect from VMI from VMA

          Thank you! drinks
  6. +1
    7 February 2018 17: 32
    + + + + + + + + + +

    For its time, the 305-mm / 45 MK X was an excellent gun, the only problem was that this time passed quickly. During the 1906-1910 period, all the leading fleets of the world developed new 305-mm guns, which the British MK X were inferior in all respects: as a result of the "Invincibles" German ships armed with 305-mm opposed. SK L / 50 firing 405,5 (high-explosive - 405,9) kg shells with an initial speed of 855 m / s.


    In fairness, it would not hurt to remind you what the best characteristics of the 305 mm are. SK L / 50 Germans “paid” by the fact that the cost of this gun was approximately 1 / 3 higher than the cost of the English gun.
    1. 0
      8 February 2018 10: 16
      Well, this is emnip along with ammunition - the German half-shells of denyushki were also worth it, the rocking chairs there are not very different in price
      1. +1
        8 February 2018 18: 13
        Quote: Kibb
        Well, this is emnip along with ammunition - the German half-shells of denyushki were also worth it, the rocking chairs there are not very different in price


        As far as I know, the guns themselves were more expensive. Apparently due to the fact that the Germans made trunks using a different technology. The English had trunks with wire winding. Because of this, they were cheaper than German trunks. But the rigidity of the barrel with wire winding was lower due to which the accuracy was lower.
        1. 0
          8 February 2018 19: 53
          Perhaps I won’t say so right away. As for the real prices for “rocking chairs,” everything is quite muddy - especially in Russian historiography, after Vickers
        2. +1
          8 February 2018 23: 43
          As far as we know, the last (and most successful) with the “winding” were 381mm 42 kb. Using the same technology, Italians managed to bring it to 320mm - they drilled 305 English technology ...
          The Germans - on the other, that's for sure
          1. 0
            9 February 2018 09: 30
            The Germans, like everyone else, fastened the pipe with cylinders, but they just fell in love with a wedge lock, hence a rather original version of the charge.
          2. 0
            11 February 2018 06: 47
            Quote: Irina Grafova
            As far as we know, the last (and most successful) with the “winding” were 381mm 42 kb.

            Successful yes, but not the last. The latest artillery system with "wire winding" is the BL 16 ″ / 45 Mark I, developed for the L-type paintwork G-3, delivered with minor modifications in the end to the “Nelson” and “Rodney.” Interesting, that to speed up the work, the barrel of the 457-mm gun of the Furyes light-linear cruiser, which was lined up to 406 mm, was taken as an experimental one. The artillery system project was prepared by the Woolwich Arsenal, executing company "Amstrong" hi
  7. +1
    7 February 2018 17: 53
    All the same, despite the ambiguity and sometimes controversial concept and final design of the brainchild of the First Lord of the Admiralty, I like "wild cats". This is probably just an irrational lyuboff. ("Kaka-taka lyuboff?", Love and Pigeons, 1984) fellow
    From SW. hi
    PS
    The cycle is good and informative as usual. The idea of ​​"direct injection of nitra" appears when still appeared and in what quality. laughing
  8. +2
    7 February 2018 18: 45
    Read in one go fellow . A definite plus hi
    Even nothing to complain about is simply a description of the ship. A series of experiments led to a delay in delivery plus permanent elimination of deficiencies. But this does not make these ships innovative, because their problem was conceptual. But such upgrades are not much corrected, because any game with an increase in displacement will lead to a change in other characteristics.
    So, Andrei Nikolaevich, in my opinion, the project ruined the inertness of thinking. What has already been said smile
    1. 0
      7 February 2018 19: 13
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Read in one go




      Take a break
    2. 0
      12 February 2018 09: 31
      Disagree hi , in my opinion, the concept of "have the right to be", but the ships ruined the desire of the admirals to use them for other purposes. There are 305 - get in line! If the Invincibles were used only as "killers" of cruisers ... The author compares them with the Minotaurs, who were not supposed to fight in the line, and this is an unambiguous progress. Invincibles, as the development of this concept, are successful ships. And for the battle in line ... Well, here you yourself know everything better than me. smile
      For the "tankers" I’ll give a comparison: attempts to use the Su-76 as tanks led to unjustified losses and a terrible reputation in the army, and proper use brought this self-propelled gun the glory of the best lightweight SAU of the Second World War.
      Many thanks to Andrey!
      1. 0
        12 February 2018 19: 25
        Quote: volodimer
        Disagree

        Any opinion has the right to life Yes
        Speaking about the inertness of thinking, I meant that the reluctance to make a cruiser larger than a battleship led to an imbalance in the characteristics. And if you consider a cruiser a cruiser, then try to use it according to the concept according to which it was developed. Then you will not have to grieve over those who died in an unequal battle feel
        Like an armored cruiser, the Invincible would have fit in with the prescribed functions. But when they try to put them where the comrades are more serious just because of the caliber of the main guns and speed, here you’ll smile hi
  9. +6
    7 February 2018 18: 57
    The article is interesting, on the other hand, as if nothing new, and again biased towards the overthrow of authorities. If the article is entitled "Errors of British shipbuilding ... Invincible," then the author would have defined Invincible as this error itself. And this is the founder of a new class of ships, more than showing himself well in battles in the Helgoland Bay, the Falklands, and he, it seems, inflicted fatal damage on Lyuttsov. He was the first, followers, clearly had the opportunity to be better.
    Calling Invincible a mistake is a mistake what
  10. 0
    7 February 2018 19: 00
    Thank you for the article!

    In my opinion, the Invincibles, like the Dreadnought, were the first and inevitably there were mistakes. )
    And if in the Dogger’s battle the Indomiteable cans (sistership) at least somehow corresponded to their newer brothers in the line, then in Jutland the Invincible is completely outdated (not even outdated, but not consistent with the squad battle with a very serious opponent).
    It turns out the battleship Dreadnought became the ancestor of large series of British battleships up to World War II, but the Invincible - the dead end branch of shipbuilding - the British battlecruisers.
  11. +1
    7 February 2018 19: 06
    "... and the lack of understanding by the British of the features of artillery combat on 60-90 cables, that is, the distances at which battlecruisers actually fought in the First World War. During the design of the" Invincibles ", the British still could not shoot at 25-30 cables and believed that future naval battles would proceed at 30, a maximum of 40 cable, hardly further ..... ""



    《... when the construction of the Invincible on the Secret was completed, to see Kerr, he was visited by Philip Watts. Among the other issues discussed, Kerr drew Watts to the fact that, in his opinion, the distance at which “the battles will be fought, or somehow begins with 15 yards (just over 000 cables)”, and that “released from this .. .》


    "... According to Kerr Watts, he replied that he" knows about this danger ", but:
    “Admiralty requirements provided only protection against flat fire at a distance of approximately 9 000 yards (around 45 crawler — approx. Auto)”, in which the projectile has a flat trajectory and will fall into the ship with a small angle to the horizontal plane, and “at the highest limit displacement around 17 000 t lack of sufficient weight did not allow him to increase the thickness of deck armor, despite the understanding of the danger of hanging fire with large-caliber projectiles at 15 000 yards and more »



    Author, decide whether the British understood the battle distance or not. And then through the paragraph you state the exact opposite things
    1. +8
      7 February 2018 19: 39
      Quote: Town Hall
      Author, decide already

      Town Hall, read the article already. Well, learn to read, after all.
      Quote: Town Hall
      During the design of the “Invincibles,” the British still did not know how to shoot at 25-30 cables and thought that future naval battles would take place on 30, with a maximum of 40 cables,

      DURING DESIGN. What year is this? 1904- beginning of 1905
      Quote: Town Hall
      when the construction of the Invincible on the Secret was completed to see Kerr, he was visited by Philip Watts. Among the other issues discussed, Kerr drew Watts to the fact that, in his opinion, the distance at which “the battles will be fought, or somehow begins with 15 000 yards (a little more than 74 cables)”

      WHEN THE CONSTRUCTION ENDED. And when did it end? If you yourself can’t remember, at least read the article
      From the source, the source “wanders” the dialogue of the captain Mark Kerr, the commander of the building Invincible and the chief builder Philip Watts, held in 1909:

      One thousand nine hundred and nine. The backfill question - how many years have passed since the design of Invincible? You can calculate it yourself, or maybe find instructions for using the calculator for you and send it to you?
      It is clear that in 1909, the British already understood that in the future they would shine far greater distances than was seen from the 1904 of the year. It is clear to everyone. Well, besides you, of course.
      1. +2
        7 February 2018 19: 49
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Well, learn to read, after all.




        And you will learn to write then. Your exaggerated "sensation" about the distance of the battle and in which year the British decided - was refuted to smithereens in the previous article. They could have made changes to the next episode of the soap opera. .
        1. +4
          8 February 2018 09: 43
          Quote: Town Hall
          could use and bring changes to the next series of soap opera

          My friend, you have a butchert! Yes
          Quote: Town Hall
          Your exaggerated "sensation" about the distance of the battle and in which year the British decided - was refuted to smithereens in a previous article.

          Uuuuu, how everything is running :))))) Well, let's understand, you are our denier :)))))
          So - I wrote in my article that the British did not know how to shoot cables on 25-30. I cited one of the proofs of this thesis that the British conducted their training firing at a meager distance of 1 000 yards, but there were others, as well - Her Majesty’s general disregard for shooting, a characteristic of the results of firing at 25-35 kbt in 1905 g given P. Scott, an unsuccessful attempt to develop a method of shooting at recommended distances, entrusted to two British rear admirals (and failed miserably), etc. Moreover, I focus on the data of such famous Western authors as O. Parks and T. Ropp .
          However, the distinguished 27091965i reports that the British nevertheless fired at long distances in the period I described, and in confirmation of my words he cites the results of firing at 5000-7400 yards from TARGET PRACTICE for 1900. This information contradicts what I read from Parks and Ropp, but it is more reliable (document nevertheless)
          In other words, my thesis that the British didn’t shoot 1000 yards further than Fischer’s Mediterranean firing was actually refuted (although the respected 27091965i provided only 1900 g data, moreover, of the Mediterranean squadron, he said that similar firing had been carried out earlier, but I don’t have not the slightest reason not to take his word for it).
          But it does not follow from this that the British were able to shoot at 25-30 kbt.
          The accuracy of the shooting in the table below is 0,5-2,6% of hits. In battle - boldly divide by 4. As the respected 27091965i writes, the recommended shooting frequency is 1 once a year. So, if the British shot at 35 kbt using the same methods as at the 1000 yards, then this explains everything - both the books of Rapp and Parks and the inability of the British to shoot at 25-30 kbt. Those. there were shootings, but what was the use of them? Shooting once a year at the recommended 5000-7400 yards, but without making any changes to the method of firing, the British, of course, did not learn how to get at these distances :))) On the other hand, only 1900 g is given, and how the British shot in 1901,2,3,4 years?
          Therefore, I expect from the respected 27091965i relevant documents, he kindly promised to provide them to me. And if according to them it turns out that the English really did get to 1905-25 KBt well before 35, then I have to admit that my conclusion about their inability to make a mistake. Then - yes, I will write a refutation article. I can’t stand it when someone misleads people and, naturally, I’m not going to do this myself.
          In the meantime, my conclusion has not been refuted, but only one of the arguments that I cited in support of it has been refuted. And if you had at least the rudiments of logic, you could understand that.
          1. 0
            9 February 2018 14: 11
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            And if, according to them, it turns out that the British really fell to 1905-25 kbt well before 35, then I have to admit that my conclusion about their inability to make a mistake.


            When performing the second shooting exercise, the Majestic achieved 1 hit with 12 inch shells and 4 hits with 6 inch shells. If we take into account that 4 minutes were allotted for the exercise, it can be considered a completely satisfactory result. Although it is difficult to determine whether it was luck or a good preparation of calculations. Unfortunately for some reason I did not indicate this in the description of the shooting.
  12. 0
    7 February 2018 20: 46
    British battlecruisers proved uncompetitive in the battle of Jutland, meeting with more balanced German LCR. Three “cats” together with Rear Admiral Horace Hood against one “Luttsov”, with the overwhelming numerical strength of the British fleet. Nevertheless, battlecruisers are a dead end branch of development.
  13. 0
    8 February 2018 00: 17
    Real battlecruisers are all the same Asama. The Japanese danced from the armor, the British from speed.
    1. 0
      8 February 2018 23: 24
      Theoretically, a cruiser should have an advantage in speed over an armadillo. In reality, the Asami were inferior in speed to their armadillos. But, even if they had not conceded ... Usually, they refer to the results of the maneuvers of the English fleet, which supposedly proved that the advantages of two knots are decisive. But, other fleets also carried out maneuvers. For example, French, in 1910. As a result of these maneuvers, the French concluded that two or three knots of the move is not enough to win the maneuver, for this you need 6-8 knots.
      1. 0
        8 February 2018 23: 47
        The Japanese came to the Asam in their own way, drew conclusions from the fight at Yalu. In this sense, the French have less confidence, they are great masters of maneuver when retreating, but their victories turn out worse.
      2. +3
        9 February 2018 13: 50
        You take the absolute numbers. And it seems to me that we are talking about relative ones: at squadron speeds of 14-16 knots, the speed of 18-20 knots is an advantage in speed by 15-20%. Squadron speeds increased in 1910. Accordingly, the same 15-20% superiority in speed requires large absolute values
  14. +2
    8 February 2018 04: 30
    It was only possible to launch the ship into firing with the main caliber in February 1910. Needless to say, they turned out to be a failure? In March 1911, a final attempt was made to bring the electric drives to working condition. Battlecruiser arrives in Portsmouth for three-month repair

    Dear Andrei, in no case contesting the theses of your article related to the technical condition of the Invincible tower installations, I only note that the cruiser participated in training firing in both 1911 and 1912, and the fire was fired from all the guns all four towers. Consumption of shells was the same - 28 pieces - but accuracy increased. In 1911 there were six hits, in 1912 there were already 15. For comparison, Indomiteble, which first came out to practice fire in 1912, got seventeen of 32 shells. As you can see, the percentage of hits by the main caliber shells of two cruisers in 1912 was almost the same.
    1. +2
      8 February 2018 10: 06
      Good day, dear Comrade!
      Quote: Comrade
      I only note that the cruiser took part in training firing in both 1911 and 1912, with fire being fired from all the guns of all four towers.

      But how? About the same 1911 r you wrote
      The English had a similar picture in 1911. Here is the latest “Invincible,” in service for less than two years, and gunners, respectively, are inexperienced. The result of the shooting is corresponding - 10,45 points against 208,7 for the "grandfather" of the "Dominion".

      The difference is 20 times, however :) While 6 shells from 28 give quite decent 21,42% and it's hard to believe that Dominion showed 400% - that means the question is not accuracy, but something else. In general, dear colleague, all this raises very big questions about the organization of firing.
      Quote: Comrade
      As you can see, the percentage of hits by the main caliber shells of two cruisers in 1912 was almost the same.

      Yes. But as your example demonstrates, even if Dominion knocked out 100% of hits (which is hardly possible), it would (in terms of% of hits) shoot out 5 times better than Invincible, but for some reason the British thought that 20 times request
      1. 0
        9 February 2018 04: 16
        Hello, dear Andrey!

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        But how? About the same 1911 r you wrote
        ... the latest "Invincible", in service for less than two years, and gunners, respectively, are inexperienced. The result of the shooting is corresponding - 10,45 points against 208,7 for the "grandfather" of the "Dominion".

        The difference is 20 times, however :) While 6 shells from 28 give quite decent 21,42% and it's hard to believe that Dominion showed 400%

        Your doubts are absolutely justified, and my fault is that I did not completely provide information on the Dominion. This battleship, unlike the battleship under discussion, fired not in two, but in three calibers, while demonstrating sometimes brilliant results.

        Here is the training data for the "old man" in 1911.
        12 '' - 12 shells fired, 7 hits (58,33%).
        9,2 '' - 20 shells fired, 20 hits (100%).
        6 '' - 53 projectiles fired, 35 hits (66%).

        Higher firing accuracy, more projectiles fired, respectively, received more points. It is possible that there was still something like bonuses, knocked out one hundred percent or approached this - get extra points.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        so the question is not accuracy, but something else.

        That's right, a deeply respected colleague. Alas, for what else they gave points, I can’t say, I can only state this fact. Here are the total points according to the results of training firing, and here are the points for accuracy. Since these two indicators do not coincide, it turns out that your assumption is absolutely justified.
  15. +3
    8 February 2018 08: 34
    Well laid out ...
    hi
    1. +3
      8 February 2018 10: 09
      Quote: Irina Grafova
      Well laid out ...

      Thank you! hi
  16. +1
    8 February 2018 12: 55
    I’ll add a few numbers from myself. Armor weight (in tons / percent of standard displacement):
    Defense - 2835 / 19,1
    Invisible - 3460 / 20,1
    Fon der Taan - 6450 / 33,3
    Scharnhorst - 3100 / 26,7
    I wanted to find data on Blucher, but I could not find it. Well, we will search.
    1. +2
      8 February 2018 19: 30
      Quote: VohaAhov
      I wanted to find data on Blucher,

      Hmmm ... but Muzhenikov doesn’t? Will seek....
      1. +1
        8 February 2018 23: 53
        I have - in its entirety. The problem (or am I a fool or such a computer) - I just can’t put a photo here. Then some kind of abracadabra from numbers, or just a strike .... recourse
        And I have Mr. Muzhenikov in full force ...
        Again, I could show ... him, of course. Does not work crying
  17. 0
    9 February 2018 02: 08
    NS on the "Relight" in the towers of the Civil Code also had, like, electric drives. Are there any details about their work?
    1. 0
      11 February 2018 07: 43
      Quote: Narak-zempo
      NS on the "Relight" in the towers of the Civil Code also had, like, electric drives. Are there any details about their work?

      It was extremely unreliable in operation. These were completely electrified installations (for the first time in the world) for maximum mechanization, and considering that the guns and turret installations themselves were lightened to reduce weight, the whole system turned out to be unreliable. Failures and breakdowns were commonplace. was a year ago a series of articles on "Relight". The so-called - "Armadillos of the type Relight. A perfect mistake." Read hi
      1. 0
        3 March 2018 15: 09
        I finally found the time to read, but nothing about tower drives.
        1. 0
          3 March 2018 20: 35
          I apologize, it means I read it somewhere in another source. But the fact that there were problems is for sure. Relieving both the guns themselves and the gun installations + maximum electrification (for the first time in the world) gave its negative results hi
  18. 0
    9 February 2018 13: 35
    The abandonment of oil led to a fall in range to 4 - 480 miles and 4–600 miles, respectively, which was not a good result for ships that were supposed to protect ocean communications.


    Here you need to understand the conditions of fuel supply in different ports.
    Coal - the defender of trade, could be replenished at that time in any port. But the oil - was supposed to drag a tanker along or refuel in strictly limited places - where the supply tanker would arrive - which was very difficult at that time.
  19. 0
    11 February 2018 08: 27
    The article is very good, one can talk a lot about booking one thing (but not about the article) the phrase came across somewhere — Why not require unsinkable ships to beam the existing ones under execution. If I don’t confuse after the battle near the island of Szabo.

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