Military Review

Why did the Kazakhs go with Russia, and not with China or Dzungaria?

147
Why did the Kazakhs go with Russia, and not with China or Dzungaria?


260 years ago, Dzungaria ceased to exist - the last nomadic empire on the Eurasian continent, under whose control for a long time was a part of modern territories in the east and southeast of modern Kazakhstan.

In the 18th century 40, the Kazakhs faced a difficult choice: who would they go on with: with Russia, Chinas China or Dzungaria? The most likely was the prospect of creating a single Dzungar-Kazakh state, believes Leonid Bobrov, nomadic scholar from Novosibirsk. So why this idea remained unfulfilled? And what would happen if it came true?

“The Dzungarian Khanate arose on the basis of the union of the Western Mongolian, or“ Oirat ”, tribes in 1635 year after the unifying congress of four large tribes under the auspices of the Choros princes, the scientist says. - Dzungaria can be compared with Sparta, where all aspects of life were also sharpened for war.

If you look at the Qing miniatures (the Qing Empire is a state that united the Manchus, the Chinese, and the Mongols), then you can see an interesting thing: the tsins are armed with bows, and the dzungars have guns. Dzungaria was the only nomadic state in Central Asia that managed to set up production of guns and cannons in the steppe.

And the surplus guns were sold abroad. For example, in the Russian fortress of Southern Siberia. Firearms production weapons The jungars got along with the help of captured specialists. One of them is a Swede Johann Gustav Renat, who was first captured by the Russians near Poltava, and then captured by the Dzungars. For some time Renat stabbed and dragged stones for the construction of the steppe palaces, but, having learned what valuable specialist got his hands, the Dzungarian ruler Tseven Rabdan instructed him to create an artillery park.

New ruler of Dzungaria Galdan Tseren I really didn’t want to let Renata go back to Sweden, but in the end I gave him up to insistent requests. The governor hoped that those masters whom Renat had taught would continue to pour guns. It is believed that the Swede made about twenty guns and ten mortars, but in reality there were more of them. But Renat hid it from the Russian ambassador, with a caravan of which he went to St. Petersburg. They could have arrested him for helping the Dzungars: Russia was afraid of its militant neighbors.

The ambassador, writing down data from the Swede in his diary, made a note: “Russian prisoners say that Renat did much more”. And put dots, but could not get the exact numbers. Galdan Tseren, realizing that the Russians could take revenge on Renata, sent along with the Russians his own embassy.

Upon arrival in St. Petersburg, the local authorities tried to detain Renata, but the Dzungarian ambassador rendered the Swede one last service - that was sent to his homeland without hindrance. In general, this история ended well: Renat returned to his homeland a rich man. Galdan Tseren, highly appreciating his services to Dzungaria, in parting generously gave the Swede gold and silver.

True, the most important gift of the ruler is a huge garden, which in the steppe was considered an element of luxury, he, leaving, of course, left. In Dzungaria, they remembered Renata for a long time: those masters whom he had taught continued to pour cannons. And by the 40 years of the XVIII century, the Dzungars had 50 guns.

Why did such a powerful nomadic empire disappear from the face of the earth, leaving almost no trace behind? The fact is that civilian war began in Dzungaria, and the famous prince Amursana fled to China, from where he led the Qing troops. Since he was his own, the compatriots did not fight with him, and Dzungaria, which was previously considered invincible, was eventually occupied by the Qing troops.

When Amursana came to his senses, it was already too late. Most of the territory controlled the tsin, and most importantly - part of the Dzungarian nobility went over to the side of the enemy. The uprising raised by Amursana was sunk in blood.

In 1757, the last nomadic empire on the continent ceased to exist - it was completely destroyed by Qing China. The population of Dzungaria was either slaughtered, or died from disease, or fled the country. Question: what does all this have to do with Kazakhstan? Now, for some reason, they overlook the fact that in the 40s of the 18th century, the Kazakhs, pressed from all sides by external enemies, faced an uneasy choice, with whom to go next - with Russia, Ching China or Dzungaria?

How Tsin China behaves, the Kazakhs saw the example of the same Dzungaria: in case of victory, entire tribes were cut in treacherously. In Dzungaria, by that time there was a strong Khan's power, where the level of centralization was significantly higher than in the Kazakh zhuzes. Therefore, the idea of ​​creating a single Dzunggar-Kazakh state seemed the most likely. But Galdan BoshoktuKhan, one of the first rulers of Dzungaria, fighting with the Kazakhs, demanded that they accept Lamaism. Galdan Tseren did not insist on this anymore.

He simply wanted the Djungars and the Kazakhs to unite within one state. The older zhuz even swore allegiance to Dzungaria, and many Kazakh rulers sent their sons there hostage. But this humility was imaginary, in general, the Kazakhs did not obey the Dzungars and, at every opportunity, fought for their freedom. There was too much blood and mutual resentment between them. In short, the prospect of creating a Dzunggar-Kazakh state turned out to be difficult to implement due to the most severe contradictions.

If we turn to modernity, it would be equivalent to reconciling Germany and the USSR quickly and immediately after the Second World War, creating one single state. Therefore, the Kazakhs preferred Russia as a third party in this conflict.

But Kazakhstan, like China and Russia, is in a sense the heirs of Dzungaria. By the end of the 50 of the XVIII century, the Qing empire cut out almost all the Dzungars. That is, in Dzungaria, the Dzungar itself is left. It was divided into three parts. Eastern Turkestan and part of Western Mongolia went to China, Gorny Altai to the Russian Empire, and the Ili, Tarbagatai river basin and the south from Balkhash became Kazakh. In general, it turned out that the Kazakhs won the most from the defeat of Dzungaria - they managed to occupy the most fertile nomads. Interestingly, in Kazakhstan, the Dzungars are still perceived as enemies. This is comparable to the victory of Moscow Rus over the Golden Horde in the battles on the Kulikovo Field and on the Ugra River: the Russians occupied the territories that once belonged to the enemy. And as now the history of the Horde is part of the history of Russia, so the history of Dzungaria is part of the history of Kazakhstan. This, according to Leonid Bobrov, should encourage Kazakhstani scientists to study more closely not only the Dzungar-Kazakh wars, but also the cultural exchange between the Dzungars and the Kazakhs.
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https://camonitor.kz/30474-pochemu-kazahi-poshli-s-rossiey-a-ne-s-kitaem-ili-dzhungariey.html
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  1. DimanC
    DimanC 30 January 2018 06: 14 New
    +5
    We were told about the same in Kazakhstan’s history at school: Kazakhs had a more or less distinctive future with Russia, but not with China.
    1. dSK
      dSK 30 January 2018 06: 50 New
      +4
      Hello Dmitry!
      Quote: DimanC
      Kazakhs have Russia ... their more or less distinctive future,
      Born in Northern Kazakhstan, lived there for half a century. The first visit to Russia was most struck by the "wooden" high-voltage poles.
      The Christian foundation of Russia probably affects: "Jesus, having called them, said to them: you know that the peoples revered by the princes rule over them, and their nobles rule them. But let it not be so between you: but whoever wants to be greater between you, let him be your servant; and whoever wants to be the first between you, let him be the whole slave. The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and give His soul for the redemption of many." (Mark - 10: 42-45.)
      1. Basil50
        Basil50 30 January 2018 11: 19 New
        +6
        In Dzungaria itself, local princes cut themselves with each other and of course robbed everyone whom they could reach. The state as such did NOT EXIST. They could only unite if hunger ensued as a result of a hard winter and only by * relatives *. Often, during raids on neighbors, the Dzhungars settled accounts among themselves.
        Of course, distant relatives like the Kyrgyz, who were later dubbed the Kazakhs, were considered only as prey. So they hunted with corrals, knowing both the steppe rivers and steppe lakes, near which the Kirghiz grazed with their cattle. Only those who could quickly escape or hide in the mountains were saved.
        Kyrgyz, without advanced degrees, remember the stories of the elders as it was. They also remember how the ARMY OF THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE stopped these raids.
      2. siberalt
        siberalt 30 January 2018 18: 15 New
        +3
        Yeah. They defeated the nomads halt, put down to cook a ram and decided. And what, while it is boiling, let's make a gun and a couple of guns. Around the steppe, a lot of time. lol
  2. Humpty
    Humpty 30 January 2018 06: 37 New
    13
    In the south, the Kazakhs were with Russia due to the fact that Russia, under agreements with China, received part of the land south of Balkhash, without any connection with various nomadic tribes living there, Kazakhs in particular. The Ili region was later returned to China, also by agreement. Other lands south of Balkhash, in particular Alma-Ata district, were obtained through successful military operations against the crazy Kokand Khanate, which at the dawn of its existence, by the way, for its time was surprisingly progressive in social terms. Again without any connection with the nomads. Notice why the city is now renamed to Almaty? Okay, let the "colonial heritage" city of Verny not like it. The fact is that Alma-Ata also does not like something, I think, because it sounds too Uzbek.
    As far back as the 19th century, different peoples lived to the south of Balkhash - Uzbeks, Mongols, Kazakhs, Russians, Kyrgyz. The south of Kazakhstan turned out to be where it is now when dividing the RSFSR into nat. republic as a result of .... and only because so Stalin decided.
    Therefore, there should in principle be a lot of monuments to Joseph Vissarionovich, but something is not visible in the afternoon with fire.
    1. antivirus
      antivirus 30 January 2018 07: 44 New
      +1
      Therefore, there should in principle be a lot of monuments to Joseph Vissarionovich, but something is not visible in the afternoon with fire.


      copper and granite nothing memory everything
    2. EwgenyZ
      EwgenyZ 30 January 2018 17: 20 New
      +3
      Quote: Humpty
      Therefore, there should in principle be a lot of monuments to Joseph Vissarionovich, but something is not visible in the afternoon with fire.

      Well, in theory, in Ukraine they should be grateful to Lenin, and there everything is vice versa. The "young" states are surprisingly ungrateful.
    3. Zogak
      Zogak 30 January 2018 22: 56 New
      +1
      Quote: Humpty
      Other lands south of Balkhash, in particular Alma-Ata district, were obtained through successful military operations against the crazy Kokand Khanate, which at the dawn of its existence, by the way, for its time was surprisingly progressive in social terms. Again without any connection with the nomads.


      Humpty, do not forget that in the Kokand Khanate, somewhere from the 1820s. Kirghiz and Ferghana Kypchaks taxied. In Tashkent vilayet, it was the Kazakhs who constituted the main base of the troops. So, nomads, including Uzbek nomads, played a big role there. Militarily.
      And the language of office work there was suddenly Persian.

      The fact is that Alma-Ata also does not like something, I think, because it sounds too Uzbek.


      I am amused. What is Uzbek in a nutshell? Alma-Bobo will sound in Uzbek.
      1. Humpty
        Humpty 31 January 2018 04: 43 New
        0
        Quote: Zogak
        What is Uzbek in a nutshell?

        Hint that it sounds the same in Kyrgyz?
        Quote: Zogak
        So, nomads, including Uzbek nomads, played a big role there

        In the USSR of the 20s, for example, Jews did much more than steer, and Andropov and Stalin were not Russian, it’s hard to say Brezhnev who is ethnic, but Lenin ...
        A person in their right mind will not say that the USSR was a state of Georgians or Jews.
        The Kokand Khanate was created by the Uzbeks of the Ferghana Valley. There were many ethnic groups united in it, and the khans were of descent from different tribes / nationalities. Later, later in the USSR, people chose nationality for themselves, mainly by place of residence.
        I see no reason for a nice person to switch to "you".
        1. Zogak
          Zogak 31 January 2018 09: 31 New
          0
          Quote: Humpty
          Hint that it sounds the same in Kyrgyz?


          It sounds the same in Kazakh, but clumsy. Apple Grandfather.

          Quote: Humpty
          In the USSR of the 20s, for example, Jews did much more than steer, and Andropov and Stalin were not Russian, it’s hard to say Brezhnev who is ethnic, but Lenin ...
          A person in their right mind will not say that the USSR was a state of Georgians or Jews.


          The percentage of Jews or Georgians in the USSR was much less than the nomads in Kokand, who were probably even more than the Uzbeks. Therefore, a person in their right mind will not say that the Kokand khanate was not connected with the nomads, by the way, its progressiveness is possible and is explained by this connection.
          In general, read Valikhanov's "Note on the Kokand Khanate."

          Quote: Humpty
          I see no reason for a nice person to switch to "you".


          For a long time it seems like we intersect, if I do not confuse you with anyone
  3. Herculesic
    Herculesic 30 January 2018 07: 14 New
    +5
    Well, the main thing is that we lived for a long time in the world as one state! Today, Kazakhstan is a country that appeared precisely thanks to Russia! Such Asian Finland!
    1. Mar.Tirah
      Mar.Tirah 30 January 2018 08: 02 New
      +8
      I don’t understand, why do we need this, another version? Whatever the ground, to create a single national state, Great Kazakhstan? Even the borders are real. Take everything from the neighbors. East Turkestan and part of Western Mongolia went to China to pick up, Gorny Altai - to the Russian Empire - to take away, and the basin of the Ili River, Tarbagatai and the south of Balkhash became Kazakh. Do you see how they presented? angry chose less? That's it, neither more nor less!
      1. avt
        avt 30 January 2018 10: 13 New
        +6
        Quote: Mar. Tira
        I don’t understand, why do we need this, another version?

        Well first of course
        Quote: Mar. Tira
        Whatever the ground for creating a single national state-Great Kazakhstan?

        To prove to ourselves antiquity and greatness, naturally from Genghis and so that there is no break, Dzungaria is interwoven. So the ancient history of Kazazhstan as an independent state is ready. This is clear. And here is the second point .... fear. You won’t believe it, but the fear is real, since the author of the campaign understands the appeal to the ears of this entire “state” construction, and the example of how the ex-Ukrainian SSR is pouring into the Ruin is a piece more than fat, inherited by the Sumerians and ... the parents of Genghis, Buddha, Jeeuea bin Joseph hi This fear accelerates to
        should encourage Kazakhstani scientists to more closely study not only the Dzungar-Kazakh wars, but also the cultural exchange between the Dzungars and Kazakhs.
        Even if it suggested
        Leonid Bobrov,
        bully Well, actually let them dare. Let's see what happens.
      2. Bulrumeb
        Bulrumeb 30 January 2018 12: 19 New
        +3
        Even the borders are real. Take everything from the neighbors. Eastern Turkestan and part of Western Mongolia went to China to pick up, Gorny Altai - to the Russian Empire to pick up, and the basin of the Ili River, Tarbagatai and the south of Balkhash became Kazakh.

        You’ve got to the point, now in Kazakhstan, local patriots are blaming Russia for the fact that the Ili region has left China, not the Kazakhs
        1. Humpty
          Humpty 30 January 2018 13: 42 New
          +2
          Quote: Bulrumeb
          You’ve got to the point, now in Kazakhstan, local patriots are blaming Russia for the fact that the Ili region has left China, not the Kazakhs

          When dismembering the RSFSR, there was an option that the north-west of Kyrgyzstan, for example, would be in the south of the Aral Sea, where Karakalpakia is. And what's wrong, the brotherhood of white and black kalpaks. But the Khivans, who are now some of the Uzbeks from time immemorial, had access to the Caspian, now for some reason no. Section options were different. So that the population of the republics of Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan was not entirely a village / ail, they transferred cities in which elite nationalities almost did not live, but where to get these cities? They decided simply, the Russian and Uzbek cities were transmitted. When Tajikistan was separated from Uzbekistan, it was also too clever.
    2. Antianglosax
      Antianglosax 30 January 2018 12: 02 New
      +4
      Quote: Herkulesich
      Today, Kazakhstan is a country that appeared precisely thanks to Russia!

      It is unclear why we cut the sea of ​​native Russian lands to them !? And so there was a large territory for so many people.
      1. Bulrumeb
        Bulrumeb 30 January 2018 12: 21 New
        +5
        It is not clear why we cut the sea of ​​native Russian lands to them.

        And here, as in popular wisdom - give a finger, they will grab the whole hand. It is not for nothing that in Kazakhstan nationalists scream with might and main about the "primordially" Kazakh lands - Orenburg, Omsk, Tyumen
        1. Sergey-8848
          Sergey-8848 30 January 2018 14: 55 New
          0
          There is also a city (mine!), Even called at one time (in the very “frenzy of" independence ", until 1998) from the direction of Kazakhstan on the signs - Zhaman-Kala. This name is from tsarist times, briefly revived in a darkened brain that learned to write in English nationalists.
          You can yell as much as you like, and about anything, but most likely all the nationalists will be pushed into one tent and thrown into a deep pool, than they can quarrel Kazakhs and Russians.
          1. AllXVahhaB
            AllXVahhaB 1 February 2018 12: 24 New
            0
            Quote: Sergey-8848
            There is still a city (mine!), Which even was called at one time (in the very “frenzy of" independence ", until 1998) from Kazakhstan on the signs - Zhaman-Kala.

            Orsk or what?
            But my native Semipalatinsk is now called "Semey" fellow
      2. AllXVahhaB
        AllXVahhaB 1 February 2018 12: 21 New
        0
        Quote: Antianglosaks
        It is unclear why we cut the sea of ​​native Russian lands to them !? And so there was a large territory for so many people.

        Once the capital in Orynbor was ...
    3. user
      user 30 January 2018 14: 36 New
      +2
      Such Asian Finland!


      And you do not know how in 1986 the indigenous population reacted to the change of Kunaev to Kolbin. An acquaintance left for Germany and said on her next visit - I was walking along Abay Street then, and a crowd of Kazakhs across the entire width of the street met me - I don’t understand how I ran away. But more than 30 years have passed, and she still has that horror. This is me about voluntary choice and a single state.

      Let's see what will happen after Nazarbayev. I think it’s not so long to wait (by the way, I’m not talking about the death of this comrade).
      1. Bulrumeb
        Bulrumeb 30 January 2018 15: 12 New
        +1
        And you do not know how in 1986 the indigenous population reacted to the change of Kunaev to Kolbin.

        There was a case, despite the fact that Kunaev was never a Kazakh. And now those lawless people are national heroes
        1. already a Muscovite
          already a Muscovite 30 January 2018 19: 14 New
          +1
          Quote: Bulrumeb
          Kunaev was never Kazakh

          Tatar ... But try to tell the Kazakh, hi-wai will start right away ... Kazakhs are now the most nationalists ...
          1. Siban
            30 January 2018 20: 14 New
            +1
            Quote: already a Muscovite
            Tatar ... But try to tell the Kazakh, hi-wai will start right away ...

            Fucking wise guy, can you tell me how the (key) Tatar differs from the Bashkir, and the Kazakh from Sart ?! That is, on what basis they are easy to distinguish. It is enough to ask one question to understand who is who, where. Stepnyak, or their descendant, will easily be able to resolve this issue. Can you .. repeat?
            1. already a Muscovite
              already a Muscovite 30 January 2018 21: 15 New
              +2
              Quote: Siban
              Fucking wise guy

              All nations once wandered ... count? Just vi, the Greatest SUBSIDIARIES of the Kazakh Kazakh Chingiz Kachkuk made this the last ... Well, the greatest // thou ...
              1. Siban
                30 January 2018 21: 39 New
                0
                Quote: already a Muscovite
                All nations once wandered ... count?
                So you don’t know loland the Bashkirs, kazak, nogai or osbek understood what I mean .. and you’re smart about Kunaev ..
                And so you argue in the style of "bear, balalaika, perestroika" ..
                1. already a Muscovite
                  already a Muscovite 30 January 2018 22: 02 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Siban
                  and the Bashkirs, kazak, nogai or osbek understood what I mean .. and you’re smart about Kunaev ..

                  And that Kyrgyz did not mention ?? And they are not great like you ...
                  Kunaev is a Tatar, and this cannot be changed, no matter how clever you are ..
                  1. Siban
                    30 January 2018 22: 12 New
                    0
                    Quote: already a Muscovite
                    And that Kyrgyz did not mention ?? And they are not great like you ...
                    bully Bring me my quote where I declared the Kazakhs “Velikimi”yes?!
                    Quote: already a Muscovite
                    Kunaev is a Tatar and this cannot be changed

                    1. already a Muscovite
                      already a Muscovite 30 January 2018 22: 27 New
                      +2
                      What, are you giving up Velichy ?? Yes, you go to YouTube, they will quickly explain to you how wrong you are ...
                      Nazarbayev himself said that when he joined the party, in the column "nationality" he wrote that he was a Tatar ... Are you from the elbasy, will you argue? Immortal WHAT LE? or losing blood does not flow ?? ... ahahaha laughing laughing
                      1. Zogak
                        Zogak 30 January 2018 22: 46 New
                        +1
                        Quote: already a Muscovite
                        Nazarbayev himself said that when he joined the party, in the column "nationality" he wrote that he was a Tatar ... Are you from the elbasy, will you argue? Immortal WHAT LE? or losing blood does not flow ?? ... ahahaha laughing laughing


                        The argument is gorgeous, but in fact the Tatar was Kunaev’s mother and his wife.
                      2. Siban
                        30 January 2018 22: 58 New
                        +2
                        Quote: already a Muscovite
                        What, are you giving up Velichy ??
                        fool Durik, why should I refuse if I did not say this? stop?! I perceive the Kazakhs as they are with pluses and minuses .. Just a statement. If I were a Chukchi, for example, I would also calmly take it. "Shaw mayo, then mayo .."
                        Quote: already a Muscovite
                        Nazarbayev himself said that when joining the party, in the column "nationality" he wrote that he was a Tatar ...
                        Please link where Nazarbayev said this .. yes And by the way, is it really Nursultan, the ultimate truth .. what?!
            2. AllXVahhaB
              AllXVahhaB 1 February 2018 12: 33 New
              0
              Quote: Siban
              Fucking wise guy, can you tell me what (key) Tatar

              Can you, wise guy, explain how the Crimean Tatar differs from the Volga, that from the Urals, and the Urals from the Siberian? They don’t even understand each other’s language! Since Tatar is not a nationality! This name, such as the Indians in America ...
              1. Siban
                1 February 2018 13: 18 New
                0
                Quote: AllXVahhaB
                Can you, smartass, explain
                I'm not talking smart with you ladbully What kind of bad manners climb into someone else's conversation .. No. agaya with a youngster ?!
                But if so, just so unbearable keep your word, young ...
                1. AllXVahhaB
                  AllXVahhaB 1 February 2018 14: 08 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Siban
                  I'm not talking smart with you lad. What kind of bad manners to get into someone else's conversation .. agaya with a youngster ?!

                  Unexpectedly: personal conversations are conducted in PM. And here, like, a forum ...
                  And rakhmet for the young)))
                  Kel, balalar, қylyқ,
                  Oқyғandy kөңіlge,
                  Yyylaspen togylı! lol
      2. AllXVahhaB
        AllXVahhaB 1 February 2018 12: 28 New
        0
        Quote: user
        And you do not know how in 1986 the indigenous population reacted to the change of Kunaev to Kolbin.

        I know. By the way, the rebellion was suppressed by parts from the Baltic states consisting of labuses fellow
        Now, in honor of these dead "freedom fighters" in Kazakhstan, the streets are called ...
        Threat. It is also not very far-sighted to put the Kazakh republic instead of the Kazakh one at the head of the national republic ... Given that they wanted to tear the national elite from the trough, what were they counting on?

        Quote: user
        Let's see what will happen after Nazarbayev.

        Cranks will be! Ukraine will seem like flowers ...
  4. EvilLion
    EvilLion 30 January 2018 08: 28 New
    +5
    "When the black Chinese comes, the red-haired Russian will appear as an angel."
    1. odometer
      odometer 30 January 2018 12: 14 New
      +1
      I’ll clarify. "... will seem like a brother."
      1. Zogak
        Zogak 30 January 2018 22: 46 New
        +1
        Quote: curvimeter
        I’ll clarify. "... will seem like a brother."


        I’ll clarify. There is no such saying laughing
        1. odometer
          odometer 31 January 2018 03: 45 New
          0
          In the national language - there is, for you - no. It happens...
          1. Zogak
            Zogak 31 January 2018 09: 39 New
            +2
            Quote: curvimeter
            In the national language - there is, for you - no. It happens...


            In the folk language, too, no. This is a remake from the 90s. And in a folk language the proverb sounds like this: When a black Chinese comes, the end of the world will come
            1. odometer
              odometer 31 January 2018 10: 57 New
              0
              I heard from the old people in Semirechye in the early 80's.
              1. Zogak
                Zogak 31 January 2018 11: 04 New
                +1
                Quote: curvimeter
                I heard from the old people in Semirechye in the early 80's.


                The original proverb goes like this: Kara Kytay Kaptasa, akyr Zaman Kelady.
                1. odometer
                  odometer 31 January 2018 12: 06 New
                  0
                  I think options for proverbs are possible.
                  1. Zogak
                    Zogak 31 January 2018 13: 07 New
                    +2
                    Quote: curvimeter
                    I think options for proverbs are possible.


                    I think this is a remake of the Soviet or post-Soviet times.
    2. AllXVahhaB
      AllXVahhaB 1 February 2018 12: 35 New
      0
      Quote: EvilLion
      "When the black Chinese comes, the red-haired Russian will appear as an angel."

      Kazakhs themselves say that they were red before the Mongol invasion ...
      1. Zogak
        Zogak 1 February 2018 14: 43 New
        0
        Quote: AllXVahhaB
        Kazakhs themselves say that they were red before the Mongol invasion ...


        Nothing that the Kazakh tribes came with the Mongols of Genghis Khan?
        1. AllXVahhaB
          AllXVahhaB 1 February 2018 16: 35 New
          0
          Quote: Zogak
          Nothing that the Kazakh tribes came with the Mongols of Genghis Khan?

          I am writing that I heard. And who is there with whom where did he come from ... Each nation has its own mythology ... request
          1. Zogak
            Zogak 1 February 2018 16: 37 New
            0
            Quote: AllXVahhaB
            I am writing that I heard. And who is there with whom from where did he come ... Each nation has its own mythology ... request


            Well, here it’s not mythology, but the same tribes, for example, Naimans, Kereites, Jalair, Katagans, greed plus genetics. As for the fact that they were red, these are complexes in order to be similar to Russians.

            TEVKELEV I.V.

            The news of the Kyrgyz-Kaisak people, and how they are divided, and the lands on which they swing, and what kind of people these lands belong to, and what their convenience and tendering are, then this is lower

            1st. The places where they roam are the center of the great Tartari, and there were peoples living in cities, like the ruins of them and now testify, but in the third century after Christ, there was one of them Genghis Khan, a glorious robber, collecting a strong he devastated the party of the zbrodnago people, devastated all the places and cities from the Yaika River to Khiva, and to Bukhari, and to the Irtysh River, and here he wandered with that people, as before, he had no houses and no money. But their entire estate consists of horses and sheep, for which the goods they need, like cloth, leather and iron cauldrons, canvas and soaking horse-drawn zbrew are traded, and so from five to ten horses come from Russia every year from them, and the rams up to forty thousand, rifle-old peoples have saidaks and several fiery wicks without locks. From them the expelled Tatar people went to the Black Sea on the Nagai steppe, and after that they conquered the Crimea.

            2nd. Multiplying, this people was divided into three, by rank: Large, Medium and Small Hordes. The big one wanders from the cities of Turkistan and Tashkent to Bukhari and to the Zingor Kalmyks and receives its satisfaction in these cities and in Bukhari, both the Bukhara khan belonging to and the Bukhara cities belonging to the Zingor possessions, for that reason they don’t go to Orenburg.
  5. parusnik
    parusnik 30 January 2018 08: 33 New
    11
    But Kazakhstan, like China and Russia, are, in a sense, the heirs of the Dzungaria
    ... It is interesting whose successors we are still, who still threw us the "culture" .. laughing
  6. soldier
    soldier 30 January 2018 08: 55 New
    18
    As some tribes said: if others take off their heads for something, then they only tear the white king)
    Including therefore
  7. betta
    betta 30 January 2018 09: 05 New
    +9
    I wonder why the word "Kazakhstan" is used as historical? As far as I know, "Kaza" sounded at firstкrepublic, "and only in 1936 corrected for the modern. Accordingly, there were no Kazakhs, but there were other (in the plural) names. So is history rewritten?
    1. Smoke
      Smoke 30 January 2018 11: 25 New
      +8
      all their lives they were called Kyrgyz, more precisely Kyrgyz kaisaks, they have been called Kazakhs in the last 50-60 years ... Kazakh nationality (note I do not use the word nation) IMHO has not yet fully developed, there is still going on a complex process of ethnogenesis - the Slavs little by little they mix with the Turkic element, there are practically no any Dungans left - all are written by Kazakhs, moreover, the process of repatriation of the so-called Kazakhs from Mongolia and China is underway, and often local Kazakhs themselves refuse to recognize the “Mongols” as relatives ...)) In general, porridge is cooked, Kazakhstan now, in essence, is an incubator of a new nationality and the introduction of Latin letters from the same vector of creation and cultivation.
      This is purely my opinion. It is based on the fact that during the USSR there was a unique situation when representatives of the titular nationality of the union republic often did not know their language and spoke only Russian. Moreover, the number of Kazakhs itself was smaller in percentage terms compared with the Russian-speaking peoples in the republic, so it can be safely stated that those same pre-revolutionary Kyrgyz Kaisaks, who were later called Kazakhs, were no more. They were blurred and assimilated completely. Kazakhstan at that time is essentially Russia. And it is no accident that Kazakhstan was the last to leave the USSR. Well, then Nazarbayev had to invent something, look for some differences from Russia, rely on the rich historical events of this territory, and, finally, a new nationality was born - the Kazakhs. Which we know now) But they still have a strong dependence on Russian culture and language, and this is not surprising, because in fact they are an artificially created people, with a new ideology, with new legends and other paraphernalia. That is why they now urgently need to distance themselves as far as possible from everything Russian and Soviet — and the withdrawal from the Cyrillic alphabet confirms this.
      1. already a Muscovite
        already a Muscovite 30 January 2018 19: 23 New
        0
        Quote: Smoke
        This is purely my opinion

        And it’s right ...
      2. AllXVahhaB
        AllXVahhaB 1 February 2018 12: 48 New
        0
        Quote: Smoke
        Moreover, there is a process of repatriation of the so-called Kazakhs from Mongolia and China, and often the local Kazakhs themselves refuse to recognize the “Mongols” as relatives ...))

        The "so-called" even have their own name - oralmans.
        Quote: Smoke
        during the USSR there was a unique situation when representatives of the titular nationality of a union republic often did not know their language and spoke only Russian.

        Only urban. They studied with me in class. In the villages there was a different situation. Sometimes it’s even comic when the descendants of the exiled Volga Germans, blond beasts, did not know the Russian language, but spoke only German and Kazakh!
        Amazing alliances were formed))) We, the descendants of the Semirechye Cossacks, in alliance with the children of exiled Crimean Tatars and Chechens fought with the Kazakhs who were allied with the children of exiled Volga Germans wassat
        Quote: Smoke
        Moreover, the number of Kazakhs was lower in percentage terms compared with the Russian-speaking peoples in the republic

        According to the 1986 census, approximately equally - 40% each
        Quote: Smoke
        But they still have a strong dependence on Russian culture and language, and this is not surprising, because in essence they are an artificially created people, with a new ideology, with new legends and other paraphernalia.

        I remember when about 12 years old, one Cossack woman, about 9-10 years old, was hanging around in our company. When he was called a Kazakh, he was terribly offended, straight to tears, and shouted that he was Russian ...
        Later, already in the 90s, one elderly Kazakh told me: stretch the USSR for another 20-30 years and a generation of Kazakhs would have grown up who had completely lost their national identity - language, culture, religion, etc. ....
  8. alebor
    alebor 30 January 2018 10: 30 New
    +9
    Now it became clear to everyone why the Kazakhs went with Russia, and not with the Dzungaria. It would be nice to know why Uzbeks, Turkmens, Yakuts, Azerbaijanis, Karelians went with Russia ...
    A very strange phrase: "And now the history of the Horde is a part of the history of Russia." This is approximately the same as, say, in Poland, referring to the 1940 and post-war years with the redrawing of borders, to write: "And as of now, the history of Germany is part of the history of Poland ...". The history of the Horde is the history of the Horde, and the history of Russia is the history of Russia. From the moment that part of the Horde lands was incorporated into Russia, the history of Russia began on these lands, but as long as they were in the Horde, this was the history of the Horde. If Crimea is part of Russia, where the ancient Greek colony was once located, then it does not follow from this that the history of Ancient Greece is part of the history of Russia. Here you can draw an analogy with the rivers: the Oka or Kama before flowing into the Volga, are not the Volga — they are independent rivers, and after the confluence cease to be the Oka and the Kama, and become the Volga.
    1. KaPToC
      KaPToC 30 January 2018 18: 00 New
      0
      Quote: alebor
      A very strange phrase: "And now the history of the Horde is a part of the history of Russia."

      There is nothing strange here. You’ve gotten blowed up at your ears at school about the fact that some foreign Horde came and captured Russia. But in fact, the horde - from Old Russian - the army. It was a Russian education - the Horde.
      1. AllXVahhaB
        AllXVahhaB 1 February 2018 12: 51 New
        0
        Quote: KaPToC
        There is nothing strange here. You’ve gotten blowed up at your ears at school about the fact that some foreign Horde came and captured Russia. But in fact, the horde - from Old Russian - the army. It was a Russian education - the Horde.

        Have you filled Fomenko with Zadornov in your ears? No.
        1. KaPToC
          KaPToC 1 February 2018 19: 44 New
          0
          Quote: AllXVahhaB
          Have you filled Fomenko with Zadornov in your ears?

          Common sense and critical thinking are blowing into my ears. And who is Fomenko?
          If you have nothing to say on the merits, you would shut up.
          1. AllXVahhaB
            AllXVahhaB 2 February 2018 07: 20 New
            0
            Quote: KaPToC
            Common sense and critical thinking are blowing into my ears. And who is Fomenko?
            If you have nothing to say on the merits, you would shut up.

            You will shut up your wife, if there is ... But in essence - "common sense" in the absence of education and a knowledge base is a chimera. El sueño de la razón produce monstruos(C) Francisco Goya
            So still, who poured into your ears that the “Horde” is a “Russian entity” and somehow it translates from "old Russian" belay? Is common sense and critical thinking?
            1. KaPToC
              KaPToC 2 February 2018 20: 35 New
              0
              Quote: AllXVahhaB
              You will shut up your wife, if there is ...

              Offended? Correctly! And there’s nothing to blame on the mirror - if the mug is crooked.
              Quote: AllXVahhaB
              But in essence - "common sense" in the absence of education and a knowledge base is a chimera.

              Here you go back to the personality, shut up already.
              Quote: AllXVahhaB
              So still, who poured into your ears that the “Horde” is a “Russian entity” and is somehow translated from “old Russian”

              Books must be smart to read, in fact there is no word "horde" in Mongolian, but in European languages ​​there is nothing for you to answer but to violate the rules of the site.
              1. AllXVahhaB
                AllXVahhaB 3 February 2018 11: 33 New
                0
                Quote: KaPToC
                Offended? Correctly! And there’s nothing to blame on the mirror - if the mug is crooked.

                Do not project your complexes on others. If he himself is offended by life, then they put it on you ...
                Quote: KaPToC
                Here you go back to the personality

                Where is the personality here? Aw !!! request
                Quote: KaPToC
                in fact there is no word "horde" in Mongolian, but in European languages ​​there is also nothing for you to answer

                Well yes laughing And in the languages ​​of the indigenous inhabitants of America there is no word "Native American"! From which we conclude: no Indians existed! All these were Europeans, pulled moccasins, seized фigwam and prairie fellow
                Level of argumentation shows level of education and intelligence. good
                What kind of books are these clever? Do not share the names / authors? Or is it embarrassing to voice in a decent society?
                1. KaPToC
                  KaPToC 3 February 2018 13: 57 New
                  0
                  Quote: AllXVahhaB
                  And in the languages ​​of the indigenous inhabitants of America there is no word "Native American"! From which we conclude: no Indians existed!

                  There was no state entity with that name in America. There was no Indian empire or, for example, an Indian republic, or an Indian horde.
                  Quote: AllXVahhaB
                  What kind of books are these clever? Do not share the names / authors? Or is it embarrassing to voice in a decent society?

                  Vocabulary.
                  Quote: AllXVahhaB
                  These were all Europeans who pulled moccasins, grabbed the figs and drowned on the prairie

                  You wrote some crap and laugh at yourself! Well, self-critical !!!
                  1. AllXVahhaB
                    AllXVahhaB 3 February 2018 18: 23 New
                    +1
                    Quote: KaPToC
                    There was no state entity with that name in America. There was no Indian empire or, for example, an Indian republic, or an Indian horde.

                    That is, you don’t even understand what they write to you))) Here it is the level of intelligence and education request
                    Right now, such a toponym is used to refer to historical state formation as Kievan Rus. Although at that time such a toponym did not exist! Neither the Russians themselves nor their neighbors have ever called this state entity! This term was born much later. But it does not follow from this that this state did not exist in nature! if you don’t understand what I’m talking about, then I’ll explain “on fingers” for the most gifted: to designate historical toponyms the language is used in which the author writes, which, as a rule, has nothing to do with the historical object. And these names are included in historical science!
                    Quote: KaPToC
                    Vocabulary.

                    Well, as I expected:
                    Quote: AllXVahhaB
                    such a shame in a decent society to voice

                    Quote: KaPToC
                    You wrote some crap and laugh at yourself! Well, self-critical !!!

                    The fact that you do not understand what they write to you only says that you do not have a knowledge base. I dare to assume that you do not have a classic higher education more than completely ...
                    1. KaPToC
                      KaPToC 3 February 2018 18: 25 New
                      0
                      Quote: AllXVahhaB
                      Here it is the level of intelligence and education

                      Quote: AllXVahhaB
                      you have no classical higher education

                      Refute in essence or shut up, the discussion of my intellect in this thread is offtopic, enough to break the rules of the site.
                      1. AllXVahhaB
                        AllXVahhaB 4 February 2018 19: 26 New
                        0
                        Quote: KaPToC
                        Refute in essence or shut up, the discussion of my intellect in this thread is offtopic, enough to break the rules of the site.

                        It is impossible to discuss what is not. Essentially, I wrote everything. If you do not understand, the problem is in you, namely, in the level education and intelligence! You can’t do anything here. request
                        And violation of the rules of the site is not your concern! You’d better give a list of the literature on which yourworld outlook"
    2. Spnsr
      Spnsr 30 January 2018 21: 55 New
      0
      Quote: alebor
      Now it became clear to everyone why the Kazakhs went with Russia, and not with the Dzungaria. It would be nice to know why Uzbeks, Turkmens, Yakuts, Azerbaijanis, Karelians went with Russia

      As for the first ones, I can say that at that moment, the British empire was climbing all over with its civilization, where it was not really expected. And it so happened that the white tsar had to go there in order to isolate himself from the nearby Nagla-Saxons, and Turkestan appeared!
      Moreover, in those days the foundation was laid in the formation of nationalities, according to the principle of divide and rule, and under the USSR it was realized to the end.
  9. Nemesis
    Nemesis 30 January 2018 12: 06 New
    +2
    Let's see where Kazakhstan will run when Chinese tanks enter it. After the arrival of Russian refugees from Kazakhstan to Russia in Russia, Kazakhstan is not expected ...
    1. Bulrumeb
      Bulrumeb 30 January 2018 12: 28 New
      +3
      Let's see where Kazakhstan will run when Chinese tanks enter it.

      Chinese tanks will not go there. The Chinese are much smarter and take Kazakhstan quietly. It has long been said there that it is a great injustice that such a small nation owns so much land, and even with such wealth. And in general, the Chinese consider southern Kazakhstan to be their own, I remember back in the early 80s it was possible to catch a weather forecast on traditional Chinese lands on the receiver, and so the south of Kazakhstan was for sure there.
      1. Mar.Tirah
        Mar.Tirah 30 January 2018 14: 21 New
        +2
        And I remember how in the late sixties, they broke through the border, because they lived with their parents on the border in Taldy, Kurgan Region. Of course I didn’t hear any shots, the village was far from the border, but the running was terrible. One night the village died out, everyone was alarmed at They put a shotgun, and before dawn the land and houses buzzed from the roar of those passing towards the fortified area, columns of armored vehicles. And I heard from my father that the Chinese broke through to Semipalatinsk.
        1. Bulrumeb
          Bulrumeb 30 January 2018 14: 25 New
          +1
          And I remember how in the late sixties, they broke through the border ...

          yes it was, my father just served in Semipalatinsk, told
        2. Paranoid50
          Paranoid50 30 January 2018 21: 13 New
          +1
          Quote: Mar. Tira
          And I heard from my father, the Chinese broke through to Semipalatinsk.

          Yes, it was. My father-in-law was just ending there urgently. After eliminating this very breakthrough, they had the opportunity to clean BT trucks from the Chinese "components."
        3. The comment was deleted.
    2. AllXVahhaB
      AllXVahhaB 1 February 2018 12: 53 New
      +1
      Quote: Nemesis
      After the arrival of Russian refugees from Kazakhstan to Russia in Russia, Kazakhstan is not expected ...

      Refugees said loudly, immigrants., Like me, for example. There wasn’t much to run there. Unless from devastation and poverty ...
  10. Bashibuzuk
    Bashibuzuk 30 January 2018 16: 01 New
    +3
    And what? This presentation of history even amuses me.
    Here was a Swede captured at Poltava. That he is a master at casting guns is bullshit. For Peter it was. Therefore, this poor fellow was fused to the Dzungars, hollowing stones. Why, nakoy - is unknown. Dolby and hollow.
    And then all of a sudden, one observant jungar took a closer look - hey-ee-ee, a little peasant is not easy, this Swede. Guns ready to cast.
    Well, it seemed like they were stamping guns. For 40 years, 50 pieces have been stamped. I suppose that these are all those that remained more or less intact after the test. And the students who were not torn during the tests.
    Therefore, bohadur-khan, or whatever it was, fused this Swede saboteur away. To Sweden. Yes, and he poured money into him for subversive and explosive activities in the interests of the Dzungarian Khanate.
    "How long, oh, Catilina" ..? Well, how long?
    Well, how much are we going to read all the nonsense invented by no one knows who it is. Siberian Leonid Bobrov has nothing more to do at all, right? Explore the epic of Oirat tribes ....
    There would be no telling about the dead cities in Takla Makan, there would be no telling why the desert had appeared there, because the mountains are nearby. From them, river-rivers flow. And there is a desert.
    Instead, we read fables about boobies-khans and a dozen cunning Swedes.
    Some kind of circus.
    1. Paranoid50
      Paranoid50 30 January 2018 21: 31 New
      +2
      Quote: Bashibuzuk
      That he is a master at casting guns is bullshit. For Peter it was. Therefore, this poor fellow was fused to the Dzungars, to hammer stones

      So Pyotr Alekseevich had these Swedes ... fellow Our entire historical center is laid out of them (rumors and some historians say) In short, there was a choice. yes The same Renat, apparently, turned out to be the most useless cannon, and they sent the Trojan horse to hell. laughing
      Quote: Bashibuzuk
      Some kind of circus.

      Duc, why not? The cinema was already, now, here, the circus.
  11. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 30 January 2018 16: 17 New
    +3
    On the 40 of the 18th century, the Dzungars had 50 guns.

    Well that's why. A few small cannons ... Brave and inept warriors ... Well, what is it, dear Great Kazakh chauvinists, the "empire"? Yes, and powerful? Your efforts cause laughter and pity.
    The Kazakhs followed the Russians because the Russians were the most powerful warriors and had the most powerful empire in the foreseeable space. And the “Velikokazakh Empire” was constantly offended by the Khunkhuzes, from whom forty little fluffy animals, even gathered together, could not protect. Being smart people and good warriors, your ancestors did as many do.
    Namely - they tried to merge with the Russian people, who did not oppress any nationalities, did not select their native language, did not interfere with believing what you want, did not oppress their own, and at the same time gave such a military shoulder as no one. The situation is more difficult now, but basically nothing has changed.
    Either you will be Russian Kazakhs, or they will trample you. Were it not for our ancestors, no one now would remember any Kazakhs. As ALL have forgotten, who dangled across the steppe next to your "great empire", and did not show the mind of your ancestors. It will be the same now, the most difficult times are going on, only those who are ready to stand with us on the same wall will survive.
    Leave these searches of great power before it is too late ...
  12. Scorpio05
    Scorpio05 30 January 2018 17: 02 New
    +1
    I think that for that time as a whole, an alliance with the Russian Empire, a great European, and, well, a Eurasian power with a rather European, if not the most advanced management system, was immeasurably more progressive and much better alternative than the absorption and assimilation of some hopelessly backward , Asian despotism. And this concerned not only Kazakhstan. This does not apply, probably, to independent entities that are isolated enough not to depend on the strong (compared to them) neighboring Asian powers, such as China, Persia, etc. There were excesses, mainly in the Caucasus, where they physically disappeared and were practically expelled. entire nations as a result of annexation by the Russian empire. Then the policy of separation (including for religious reasons), favoritism and lobbying of the interests of individual nations led to national conflicts. But some peoples owe their consolidation as a people (including later the state), cultural and technological development, in many respects to the alliance with Russia of that time.
    1. ukoft
      ukoft 30 January 2018 19: 01 New
      +2
      a lot of things:
      1 - Circassians
      2 - legs
      3 - Kalmyks
      4 - Siberian Tatars
      5 - Crimean Tatars
      long list. more than half of the peoples under the good Russian yoke were not tired. the rest were thoroughly thinned.
      1. Spnsr
        Spnsr 30 January 2018 22: 13 New
        +2
        Quote: ukoft
        a lot of things:
        1 - Circassians
        2 - legs
        3 - Kalmyks
        4 - Siberian Tatars
        5 - Crimean Tatars
        long list. more than half of the peoples under the good Russian yoke were not tired. the rest were thoroughly thinned.

        I admit that you emphasize, but I’ll just add, no one has cut through anyone, they’ve just renamed them, someone called Terek Cossacks, Kuban and many other nationalities of the North Caucasus, Zaporozhye Cossacks, Don, Ural, Siberian Cossacks, Tatars and Siberian including Astrakhan Cossacks, Bashkirs, or should you list the whole map of Eurasia? And most of them were Russified, others became Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Tajiks, after the revolution, they still went to Persia at that time!
        1. ukoft
          ukoft 1 February 2018 11: 09 New
          +1
          Well, actually this is quite documented. whom when and how they exterminated.
          Circassians, for example, did not become any Kuban Cossacks. half exterminated, the second half deported to the Ottoman Empire. the remnants are today's Adyghe, Kabardin and Circassians.
          Nogaev, Mr. Suvorov simply cut everyone out. But the Nogai and Circassians were more numerous nations than the Kazakhs. look at them now.
          do not whitewash yourself, the same as all other colonizers. where you can exterminate exterminated.
          therefore it is very amusing to read how the Russians condemn the Anglo-Saxons for their misdeeds in the colonies.
          1. Smoke
            Smoke 1 February 2018 11: 42 New
            +3
            people-horses got mixed up ... it's funny to watch attempts by people like you to slander everything Soviet and Russian ...
            So, Suvorov participated in the defeat of the Nogais, there was a Russian-Turkish war, the Nogai considered themselves to be part of the Ottoman Empire, and Suvorov ordered the Russian soldiers "not to spend bullets and shells, to work only with melee weapons." By this order he specially equalized the chances, acted knightly. The Nogais lost 5-6 thousand soldiers in the battle, but appreciated the nobility of the Russians and recognized the power of the Russian tsar (then there was a queen). Not all of course, but most. This is with regards to Suvorov.
            The main damage to the Nogai population was caused by internal strife and the invasion of the Kalmyks in the 17th century 100 years before Suvorov, and the Nogais were saved from the total total destruction by the Kalmyks by the recognition of the vassality from Moscow by the Kalmyk Khan. Therefore, not the entire Kalmyk army went on the raid into the North Caucasus, but only a part of it, as a result, the Kalmyk detachment was defeated on the territory of Kabarda by an allied army of Nogais and Circassians.
            Therefore, a Kazakh friend. Appreciate the Russians for being born at all.
            1. ukoft
              ukoft 1 February 2018 12: 04 New
              +1
              oh my Russian friend, I'm glad that an interesting interlocutor appeared.
              probably you need to start with the fact that you are Russian no better and no worse colonizers than others recognize. Well, Belgians are generally Achtung.

              and the widespread belief that Kazakhs and others are alive only thanks to Russia, you’re sorry, not quite right, although you can always bring evidence to the studio, we are waiting. the fact that there would be two times more Kazakhs if it weren’t for Russia, yes.
              Of course, the Kalmyks battered the Nogais, but the Suvorov and the company destroyed them. you preferred not to mention the Circassians. it is right.
              Something Western Siberia, as it was today, had no indigenous peoples? there was a whole khanate.
              1. KaPToC
                KaPToC 1 February 2018 19: 58 New
                +3
                Quote: ukoft
                Something Western Siberia, as it was today, had no indigenous peoples? there was a whole khanate.

                Paleogenetics has shown that in ALL of Russia, Russians are the only indigenous people, the Mongoloids came to Russian land quite recently, there are no Mongoloids in the sites of ancient people in Russia, but only Indo-Europeans.
                If you do not know before the war on the territory of the USSR was German autonomy - do you think the Germans are the indigenous people of Russia? Or Jews are the most indigenous people of Russia, their autonomy still exists. In the same way, other peoples of Russia came to RUSSIAN and "rooted" over time.
                1. Mar.Tirah
                  Mar.Tirah 2 February 2018 14: 55 New
                  +1
                  That's right. Until now, ancient burials have been found in mounds in the north of Siberia. Where the leaders of the tribes are buried. According to history, it seems that there should be indigenous people, as we considered peoples. But in fact, they find completely different, not Mongoloid people. us in Bedrovsky Bor, a queen was found, with blond, blond hair, and tall, but for some reason with Chinese utensils, porcelain, and weapons? So, not everything is simple.
              2. Smoke
                Smoke 2 February 2018 10: 46 New
                +1
                during Suvorov, the victims of the Nogai population are estimated at a maximum, I repeat, a maximum of 400 thousand people. But it was a war, and often the internecine Nogais slaughtered each other only on the road then, someone for the Russians and someone for the Ottomans.
                Already after the war, there was a massive resettlement of the Nogais within the Ottoman Empire, estimated to vary from 800 thousand to 1 million people, which, you see, clearly does not fit the term "extermination by the Russians." Well, by your logic, the Russians are responsible for the fact that the Nogais in Turkey were assimilated .. so it turns out?
                I did not begin to recall the Circassians, since we are talking about the Nogais - one of the most closely related ethnic groups to the Kazakhs, about whom the article was written. But if we are already moving away from the topic of the article, then please - the Circassians of the Abkhaz and Adyghe themselves left within the Ottoman Empire and disappeared there almost completely. Yes, the departure was provoked by force from Russia. But nobody drove them out. Circassians Abkhazians and Circassians were told that living in the old way will not work. What a raiding economy will no longer be. There will be peace. Who is against the world - bring down on all 4 sides. And most of the Circassians proudly left, only within the Ottoman Empire they were quickly and extremely cruelly explained to them that raids on neighbors would be punished fiercely - as a result they deceived themselves. Well, those Abkhaz Adyghes and Circassians that remained - they did not regret and do not regret, live on the lands of their ancestors, raise children and speak the language of their ancestors. You’ll go to Adygea and tell them how their Russians are colonizing them))) It’s good that there are relatively few Kazakhs like you ...
          2. KaPToC
            KaPToC 1 February 2018 19: 53 New
            +2
            Quote: ukoft
            the second half deported to the Ottoman Empire

            Nobody deported or expelled the Circassians, they left on their own, not wanting to go under the arm of the Orthodox Tsar, went to the Ottoman Empire, where they perished.
      2. Siban
        1 February 2018 20: 05 New
        0
        Quote: ukoft
        feet
        Maya "Not caldes"Сөзі: Қазтүған жырау
        Енуені; Arslanbek Sultanbekov
        Exclusive құқық иесі, Орындаушы: Maya Ismailova
        What is left?
        Given to Zhaiyk (Egg, URAL), given to Gem (Emba),
        Given Edil (Volga), given Ten (Don)
        What is not selected yet?
        From the hands of our backs
        They took the rushing falcon
        What is not selected yet?

        Registered without exception
        And all are completely constrained.
        Land given to Kara-Duan, Masak
        What is not selected yet?

        Taxed
        They took camels from two-humped ships,
        What is not selected yet?
        Taxed
        They took selected horses
        What is not selected yet?

        With a frill dress
        The smell is fragrant
        Long scythe
        silver necklace
        Gold button on the collar.
        Neither sun nor moon
        Not one watched yet
        To the beauties of our pristine
        An alien hand almost overtook.

        Gem (Embu) is taken away - Zhayyk remains (Yayk, Ural)
        Take away Ten (Don) - remains Edil (Volga)
        They take Edil (Volga) - there is Koban (Kuban)
        Adversity will leave, there will be good
        The survivors will still accumulate good.
  13. Mar.Tirah
    Mar.Tirah 30 January 2018 17: 14 New
    +3
    Quote: Scorpio05
    There were excesses, mainly in the Caucasus, where whole nations were physically disappeared and practically expelled as a result of annexation by the Russian empire. Then the policy of separation (including for religious reasons), favoritism and lobbying of the interests of individual nations led to national conflicts.

    Who told you this? You know, for example, what the Chechens had their initial faith. You don’t know Christianity ...... So who enslaved someone and instilled someone else’s faith in the Caucasus? Give examples? Only real ones, and not sucked out by your ideologists.
  14. NF68
    NF68 30 January 2018 17: 27 New
    +1
    The Dzhungars were still robbers and the Kazakhs got it hard. No wonder that the Kazakhs wished to stay farther from the jungars.
    1. Humpty
      Humpty 30 January 2018 18: 21 New
      +2
      Quote: NF68
      The Dzhungars were still robbers and the Kazakhs got it hard. No wonder that the Kazakhs wished to stay farther from the jungars.

      The jungars were not larger or smaller robbers than other nomads of Central Asia.
      They knew how to fight at that time, perhaps better than others in the area, subjugated many Turkic-speaking tribes and nationalities. The raids on the Chinese were not over for the Oirats. The answer turned out to be very tough. But not all Kalmyks at all, they are Jungars, they were the Oirats then killed the Chinese and Kazakhs. They still live here, preferring to call themselves other nationalities. There are many names left from the Kalmyks - Naryn, Boom, Dzhumgal (Dzhumgol).
      1. ukoft
        ukoft 30 January 2018 19: 03 New
        +1
        not the Chinese were killed but the Manchus and the Khalkha Mongols.
        cruel yes. not that word. decided such images to completely get rid of the threat
        1. Zogak
          Zogak 30 January 2018 22: 52 New
          +1
          And now, on the excitation of this noyon Amursanan from the Chinese side against Zengorsko / l. 128 / of the people, an offensive war is actually being carried out, and, moreover, Kirghis Kasaki of the Middle Horde one the Zengor people are no less oppressed, and today a lot of people have been captured, and it is clear that now that Zengorian people is in extreme turmoil [26] and whether they have the main owner is unknown here ...


          http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/Dokumenty/China/XVI
          I/1600-1620/Mezd_otn_centr_azii/141-160/145.htm
          1. ukoft
            ukoft 1 February 2018 11: 05 New
            +1
            the extermination was carried out by the Manchus and Khalkha Mongols. there was such an indication. then smallpox finished the case.
            Kazakhs and Kirghiz robbed so no more.
            1. Zogak
              Zogak 1 February 2018 12: 31 New
              +2
              Quote: ukoft
              the extermination was carried out by the Manchus and Khalkha Mongols. there was such an indication. then smallpox finished the case.
              Kazakhs and Kirghiz robbed so no more.


              The extermination was carried out by troops from solon, rather than a halkh, suddenly.

              I don’t know about the Kyrgyz. Read about the Kazakhs here:

              http://kyrgyz.ru/articles/oyrat/Pastuhov_Oyratska
              ya% 20politika% 20Cianluna /
              During the suppression of the Oirat uprising, the policy of Qianlong made a serious zigzag: in 1757-1758, he began to consider the Kazakhs as allies in the fight against the rebels and, as a decoy, promised the Kazakhs to allow them to settle on the former Dzungar lands [10, p. 132]. In July 1757, after another defeat from the Qing in the Aydinsu tract, the Kazakhs entered into an alliance with the Qing empire and set up auxiliary troops to suppress Oirat rebels [18, p. 135]. Zhao Ersun wrote about this: "Ablai deeply repented and secretly planned to detain the rebel Amursana, thus trying to fulfill his vassal duty [in relation to] us. Together with Amursana he secretly returned to Dzungaria. In the year 22 [era of Qianlong reign] (1757) Ablai and 30 thousand of his soldiers assisted in the attack on Amursana. Demonstrating [his] friendship, [he] apologized, served with reverence, begging to become a vassal. Subsequently, Amursana fled to Russia and died. Then Ablai detained his relatives Ebu and Jiqi Bahan and presented them as a gift [to the emperor] "[15, cz. 529, lechuan 316].

              In something actions of Kazakhs even exceeded actions of Qing in its ruthless effectiveness - if the Qing military were forced to follow orders from Beijing, then the Kazakhs sometimes removed 7 prisoners from one Oyrat nomad for one Kazakh warrior [10, p. 153]. Naturally, while trying to kill men [23, p. 214]. The actions of many Qing commanders also contributed to this - according to Russian sources, there were often Kazakh representatives in Qing detachments who took captured Oirats and led them to Kazakh nomads [10, p. 83, 115]. Perhaps this was a manifestation of corruption by the Qing commanders who received bribes from the Kazakhs for this. However, despite the evidence of such transfers of captured Oirats to Kazakhs, we do not have clear evidence of the mercenary nature of these actions by the Qing military.
              1. ukoft
                ukoft 1 February 2018 13: 16 New
                +1
                Thanks for the link. I didn’t know such sources. and I can’t say anything about reliability. since they contradict the main sources.
                only you who own such information should probably know how the same ablai didn’t very successfully fight the cynes. but he wasn’t an ally. he hid the amursan from himself, then after unsuccesses from the cynes he asked the amursan to get out of his territory.
                the picture is completely desirable to show rather than obscure passages. how do you do it.
                about the atrocities of the Kazakhs and other nomads, even every Chinese commander turned out to be like slave traders. the problem is that Kazakh traders are neither earlier nor now. so that the offended tales specified by you leave to yourself. these tales resemble howls how they drove you from Central Asia and Kazakhstan, the Baltic region. yes from everywhere.
                1. Zogak
                  Zogak 1 February 2018 13: 40 New
                  +2
                  Quote: ukoft
                  Thanks for the link. I didn’t know such sources. and I can’t say anything about reliability. since they contradict the main sources.


                  I think that you will not be able to cite any main sources, besides what you studied at the school in the history of Kazakhstan. lol

                  Quote: ukoft
                  only you who own such information should probably know how the same ablai didn’t very successfully fight the cynes. but he wasn’t an ally. he hid the amursan from himself, then after unsuccesses from the cynes he asked the amursan to get out of his territory.


                  He became an ally in 1757, when Amursana fled to Russia, there was no need to support the Dzungar, and Ablai decided to squander with Qing, and at the same time finish off his original enemies.

                  Quote: ukoft
                  the picture is completely desirable to show rather than obscure passages. how do you do it.


                  So you read the whole article, I gave a link to it.


                  Quote: ukoft
                  about the atrocities of the Kazakhs and other nomads, even every Chinese commander turned out to be like slave traders. the problem is that Kazakh traders are neither earlier nor now. so that the offended tales specified by you leave to yourself. these tales resemble howls how they drove you from Central Asia and Kazakhstan, the Baltic region. yes from everywhere.


                  Who is it us, Chukchi? You read my posts. And the slave traders from the Kazakhs were very good. Moreover, slaves from the Kazakhs were suddenly bought by Russians. Slaves were mainly from captured Jungars and Central Asians. The Russians did their best to trade in slaves until 1821, while Speransky forbade this case. And the Kazakhs captured in RI were sold in Central Asia.
                  1. ukoft
                    ukoft 1 February 2018 16: 40 New
                    0
                    I'm certainly not a historian. I just love the story.
                    honestly too lazy to seek and prove tired. but the fact that the amursana constantly relied on Ablai seems to be a well-known fact. Friends seem to be or profitable, I do not remember. this is not from the school curriculum by the way.
                    ok here is the official historical version:
                    http://titus.kz/?previd=6459
                    here is an excerpt:
                    The Chinese were in a hurry. “If you don’t move the troops quickly, then the Kazakhs will certainly by chance get their own profit,” the emperor Hunli informed his generals in a decree. The campaign, thanks to a combination of many circumstances, turned out to be fleeting and successful. Davachi was defeated and captured, and Dzungaria as a state ceased to exist. Naturally, this state of affairs could not suit either Amursana or Ablai. With the help of the last Amursan organizes an uprising. The joint struggle of the Dzungars and Kazakhs against the Chinese begins.
                    In the spring of 1756, two Qing armies entered Kazakhstan. In his letters to the Kazakhs, Hunli demanded only to extradite Amursan and stop providing assistance to the Dzungars. The conquest of the Kazakh steppes was not included in the plans of the Chinese. But wounded by the fact that many years of work went down the drain, Ablai decided to continue the resistance.
                    Here is Tikhonov’s 1903 book "A Military Historical Description of the Iliysk Territory"
                    read enlighten. otherwise write all
                    1. Zogak
                      Zogak 1 February 2018 16: 52 New
                      0
                      Quote: ukoft
                      The Chinese were in a hurry. "If you don’t move the troops quickly, then Kazakhs certainly by a fluke will achieve their benefit", - said Emperor Hongli in a decree to his generals


                      Have you ever wondered what these words mean? And they mean that the emperor was afraid that the Kazakhs would finally overcome Davatsi and capture Dzungaria.

                      Quote: ukoft
                      The campaign, thanks to a combination of many circumstances, turned out to be fleeting and successful. Davachi was defeated and captured, and Dzungaria as a state ceased to exist. Naturally, this state of affairs could not suit either Amursana or Ablai. With the help of the last Amursan organizes an uprising. The joint struggle of the Dzungars and Kazakhs against the Chinese begins.
                      In the spring of 1756, two Qing armies entered Kazakhstan. In his letters to the Kazakhs, Hunli demanded only to extradite Amursan and stop providing assistance to the Dzungars. The conquest of the Kazakh steppes was not included in the plans of the Chinese. But wounded by the fact that many years of work went down the drain, Ablai decided to continue the resistance.


                      Indeed, Ablai supported Amursana, hoping to help him recapture the Chinese and put a friendly ruler on Dzungaria’s throne, but they didn’t succeed, he fled to Russia, and after Ablai concluded an agreement with the Tsins and the allies enthusiastically began to finish off the remnants of the Dzungars.

                      http://www.nutug.ru/histori/tragedia.htm

                      While the Qing court was preparing to "appease" the rebellious Oirats, the country was bleeding from the devastating invasions of the Kazakhs. Ablai and other owners of the Middle Zhuz even asked for help from the khan of the Younger Zhuz Nurala and his elders to

                      "The Zengor fatherland, given their current Zengor disturbances, will take possession of their Kyrgyz war and take their land."

                      Amursana, on the other hand, not only did not offer any resistance to the Kazakh troops, but still tried to use them against his political opponents in Dzungaria itself. In turn, the Qing court tried, if not to persuade the Kazakh owners to their side, then at least prevent the support of the rebels by the Kazakh population.

                      In the spring of 1756, the Qing army, led by the Mongol prince Tseren, entered the territory of Dzungaria. The scattered detachments of the oirat princes could not restrain the enemy. A brutal reprisal began.

                      "The Mongol-Chinese exterminated everything living in their path - they killed men, raped and tortured women, and their children were beaten heads on a stone or wall; they burnt houses, slaughtered cattle, they killed up to 1000000 Kalmyks ... Kyrgyzs (Kazakhs - V.M. ) on their fast horses, with their warlike cries, like flocks of birds of prey, rushed over this boundless battle and led into captivity entire thousands of defenseless jungars.

                      Soon hunger reigned in the country, some began to die of starvation, while others slaughtered people and ate human meat. Smallpox followed famine. Dzungaria was literally littered with corpses, its waters were reddened by spilled human blood, and the air was full of smoke from burning uluses, forests and grasses ... everything that had legs and could move rushed from Dzungaria to Siberia ... Dzhungars sought salvation from starvation, from the Kyrgyz and Chinese, and could find this salvation only in Siberia. "

                      Quote: ukoft
                      read enlighten. otherwise write all


                      That you write different nonsense. The contribution of the Kazakhs to the defeat of the Dzungaria was very substantial and they scored simply an incredible amount.
                      1. ukoft
                        ukoft 1 February 2018 17: 28 New
                        0
                        Well, the fact that the Kazakhs and Kyrgyz did not exterminate and took away prisoners have already recognized. OK.
                        Further, Ablai became friends with the Chinese only after he himself lost to them. a second Chinese campaign was expected, so he asked the amursan to leave. I could always pass it.
                        if only in Siberia there was salvation, something I do not see any of the Kalmyks in Siberia today. but I see many descendants of assimilated Dzungars in the middle and especially older zhuzes. and without the Kazakhs, the Dzungars would have defeated the Chinese. Kazakhs themselves then could defeat them. since there was no unity among them.

                        from smallpox died no less than from the Chinese. it is a fact
                  2. ukoft
                    ukoft 1 February 2018 16: 50 New
                    0
                    I myself am a Kazakh, therefore I speak as a person who knows the topic: they cannot trade. earlier could. always the nomadic neighbors traded others.
                    and how they sold slaves. let me tell you. especially slavery never took root in the steppe and could not take root.
                    over time, the so-called slaves, who were either attendants or domestic helpers, acquired their household and family. and became the unit of the genus. it was so accepted in those days. this applied to both Kazakhs and Dzungars. and the Kyrgyz. look for evidence yourself
                    1. Zogak
                      Zogak 1 February 2018 16: 56 New
                      +1
                      Quote: ukoft
                      I myself am a Kazakh, therefore I speak as a person who knows the topic: they cannot trade. earlier could. always the nomadic neighbors traded others.
                      and how they sold slaves. let me tell you. especially slavery never took root in the steppe and could not take root.
                      over time, the so-called slaves, who were either attendants or domestic helpers, acquired their household and family. and became the unit of the genus. it was so accepted in those days. this applied to both Kazakhs and Dzungars. and the Kyrgyz. look for evidence yourself


                      You being a Kazakh do not know Nichrome. Here, read what the Russian general Terentyev wrote in The History of the Conquest of Central Asia.

                      1. ukoft
                        ukoft 1 February 2018 17: 37 New
                        +1
                        let's go without poking, please.
                        how massive was that? What do you think Kazakhs constantly robbed neighbors or each other? there was a barymt, but this concerned only horses. the bride could be stolen from time to time. but steal from a neighboring kind of people and sell into slavery ??? it wasn’t. this genus would have been overwhelmed by everyone.
                        with the jungars, most of the prisoners either assimilated or returned over time. mutually with. often, especially in central Kazakhstan, on the Kazakh small hills, they roamed alternately. there were many wives from the stolen or something like that. moreover, their children were considered the same as from their women.
                        in general, the attitude towards children was different. they were considered primarily as housekeepers. therefore, they took other people's children with pleasure.
                        girls could be given for a good dowry. here.

                        and Bukhara, Tatars, and little by little others traded among the nomads.
                        Kazakhs themselves, first of all, drove cattle for sale, wool and leather. didn’t deal with tranquil trade.
      2. NF68
        NF68 30 January 2018 21: 02 New
        0
        Quote: Humpty
        They knew how to fight at that time, perhaps better than others in the area, subjugated many Turkic-speaking tribes and nationalities.


        In this proposal, you yourself, albeit partially, but contradict. Being able to better fight the neighbors, the Jungars took advantage of this and subjugated quite a few neighbors. And in the course of constant wars with neighbors, the losses of these same neighbors were not small. I do not argue that then such clashes were the norm in those parts. This concerned not only this region.
    2. Spnsr
      Spnsr 30 January 2018 22: 27 New
      0
      Quote: NF68
      The Dzhungars were still robbers and the Kazakhs got it hard. No wonder that the Kazakhs wished to stay farther from the jungars.

      I’ve heard closer to the end of the last century about the Kyrgyz kaisaks, but about the Dzungars, Kazakhs and other nationalities in the stories about Turkestan there is no end of the 19 century, I heard about the khanates, but somehow without a nationality definition! And he himself could end up in Persia, or become a native Kazakh or Tajik, yes, with the territories in which my ancestors lived now part of Kazakhstan, part of Uzbekistan.
  15. Scorpio05
    Scorpio05 30 January 2018 18: 43 New
    +1
    Quote: Mar. Tira
    Quote: Scorpio05
    There were excesses, mainly in the Caucasus, where whole nations were physically disappeared and practically expelled as a result of annexation by the Russian empire. Then the policy of separation (including for religious reasons), favoritism and lobbying of the interests of individual nations led to national conflicts.

    Who told you this? You know, for example, what the Chechens had their initial faith. You don’t know Christianity ...... So who enslaved someone and instilled someone else’s faith in the Caucasus? Give examples? Only real ones, and not sucked out by your ideologists.


    I have no ideologists) History is an objective reality. It does not depend on how we want to look, or how personally informed you are. And bring your claims to the parliaments, respectively: Kabardino-Balkaria, Abkhazia and Adygea. All, by the way, are the subjects of the Russian Federation. Of course, except for Abkhazia, although the degree of influence of the Russian Federation in Abkhazia can hardly be overestimated. Decisions adopted in Kabardino-Balkaria, Abkhazia and Adygea on the Russian genocide of Circassians and Abkhazians:
    RESOLUTION OF THE PEOPLE'S MEETING - THE PARLIAMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF ABKHAZIA "On the act of deportation of Abkhazians (Abaza) in the XIX century": "On the act of deportation of Abkhazians (Abaza) in the XIX century"

    The colonial policy of the Russian Empire during the Russo-Caucasian War (1817 - 1867) and in subsequent periods caused the Abkhaz (Abaza) people, their gene pool irreparable damage. For participation in the struggle for freedom and independence of their country, part of the ethnic group was physically exterminated, 80% of the survivors were expelled to the Ottoman Empire.

    As a result of the war, repeated punitive measures, the expulsion of the Abkhazians (Abaza) from the historical Motherland, the northwestern and Central Abkhazia was completely devastated, the ethnographic groups and territorial communities of the Sadz, Akhchipsuites, Aybgoverts, Tsvijevs, Pschuvians, Gumians, Zebaldins, disappeared. etc., as well as closely related Abkhaz (Abaza) Ubykh ...
    Sources: I.Ya. Novitsky. Management of Ethnic Policy of the North Caucasus. P. 113, as well as http://www.natpressru.info/index.php?newsid=5288
    My dear, I am always responsible for my words.
    In addition, I spoke just about the beneficial effect of Russian penetration on the East.
    As for enslavement and Christianity: The researchers have established many names of deities that existed among Vainakhs in the pre-Islamic era. Among them, Delhi / Dyala - the supreme, oldest god, etc.
    Islam, forcibly imposed on the Chechens, did not take root for long in the early epochs, because even up to the XNUMXth century, high-mountain Vainakh societies and settlements, mainly Myalkhinsky, Maystinsky, Lamakkinsky, Ingush along the gorges of the rivers Assy, Armkhi, Fortanga, being torn away from both Christian Georgia and and from the Islamic East, mainly tribal beliefs were preserved ... The spread, first in Dagestan, and then in Chechnya and Ingushetia, of Sufi Islam, in particular of Naqshbandi and Kadarii, has its own historical explanation. According to a prominent Dagestani Arab scientist M. -S. Saidova, it was Sufi Islam that was preached as far back as the XNUMXth century by the prominent scholar al-Faraj al-Derbendi, who lived and wrote his theological works in the Muslim city of Derbent.
    The success of Sufi Islam was obviously explained by the fact that his teaching called for unconditional social justice ...
    Source: http: //checheninfo.ru/18376-religiya-vi
    storii-i-kulture-chechencev.html Still in the second half of the nineteenth century. Chechen legends and legends about certain Termaol and Bersan (Chechen sheikhs) were recorded, which played a key role in the Islamization of Chechens. Source: http: //mkala.mk.ru/articles/2017/09/29/k
    ak-chechency-islam-prinimali.html
    1. Scorpio05
      Scorpio05 30 January 2018 19: 41 New
      +1
      Following up. Here is another resolution: THE SUPREME COUNCIL OF THE KABARDINO-BALKARIAN SSR

      DECISION

      dated February 7, 1992 N 977-XII-B

      ON CONDEMNATION OF THE ADYG GENOCIDE (CHERKESES) DURING THE RUSSIAN-CAUCASIAN WAR

      The Hundred Years Colonial Russo-Caucasian War (1760 - 1864), which brought untold disasters and suffering to the Circassians (Circassians), has no analogues in the history of modern times. Most of the Adyghe ethnic group, including over 90 percent of the population of Kabarda, was physically destroyed, more than 500 thousand Adygs were forcibly expelled by the tsarist autocracy to the Ottoman Empire. Source: http://www.natpressru.info/index.php?newsid=5288
  16. Dashing
    Dashing 30 January 2018 19: 14 New
    0
    "Dzungaria was the only nomadic state in Central Asia that managed to establish production of guns and guns in the steppe." Oh, these humanities ... Dear author, can you even imagine what it means to establish the production of firearms and powder factories in the steppe. We need a strong economy, technology, knowledge, traditions, professional professionals, and both engineering and technical personnel, and production workers: foundry workers, locksmiths, turners, etc. etc. One, two, five prisoners of war specialists can’t fix such a thing. And the jungars are just nomads from the word to roam, i.e. move from camp to camp in search of food for livestock. If the Dzungars really built factories, factories, cities - they would be a settled people. Apparently, guns and gunpowder were produced by another civilization, competent, economically developed, settled. By the way, does the esteemed Sarah Sadyk know that the historical name of the "Kazakh" territories is Kazakhstan. Kazakhstan was renamed by a decree - a decree of their native Soviet power in the 30s. Eh, you, experts in pseudo-history - "For a while Renat pricked and dragged stones for the construction of the STEPPE PALACES." Baron Munchausen is just resting.
    1. Zogak
      Zogak 30 January 2018 23: 28 New
      +1
      Quote: DARK
      By the way, does the esteemed Sarah Sadyk know that the historical name of the "Kazakh" territories is Kazakhstan. Kazakhstan was renamed by a decree - a decree of their native Soviet power in the 30s.


      Do you know that the self-name of the Kazakhs is just a Cossack?
    2. Humpty
      Humpty 31 January 2018 05: 29 New
      0
      Quote: DARK
      "Dzungaria was the only nomadic state in Central Asia that managed to establish production of guns and guns in the steppe." Oh, these humanities ... Dear author, can you even imagine what it means to establish the production of firearms and powder factories in the steppe.

      The author is certainly a dear person, but it seems he cannot imagine how to make at least smoke powder in a yurt. Dzungars (Kalmyks) were distinguished from a number of other local nomads by the fact that they sometimes tried to build something. They bought firearms from the Russians; others, perhaps, the toad smothered. Not all the population of Dzungaria was nomadic, there were various "diasporas" there - Uighurs, for example, and even ... Russians, who for some reason successfully settled down there. But the factories were not found there. The Swede could teach a lot in military affairs, similar examples in Cf. Az more than enough, the European military was valued. It was the case, for example, that some Russian peasant - a soldier as a slave was resold to Bukhara, someone noticed him, and a captive slave made a career - became the commander of the army of Bukhara. Nevertheless, he sought to go home and made an escape, knowing that it was dangerous to go north, they could easily be caught. He went east to Kashgar, from there crossed Kashmir, then to the Indian Ocean. The British transported him to London. From there I got to Peter.
  17. Siban
    30 January 2018 20: 55 New
    0
    He simply wanted the Jungars and Kazakhs to unite within the framework of one state.
    They say that history repeats itself. At one time, if I am not mistaken, the Hunnish elders proposed an alliance with the Huns and Xianbi. The head of the Huns chose a different path .. And according to L.N. Gumilyov, this decision had tragic consequences for the further history of the nomadic .. Khan Ablai was more far-sighted, but the people he led did not want to hear about any alliance with the Dzungars, too too much blood was shed .. so as to calmly step over it, and even authority could not help here ..
  18. Grazm47
    Grazm47 30 January 2018 21: 32 New
    0
    But Kazakhstan, like China and Russia, are, in a sense, the heirs of the Dzungaria?
  19. urman
    urman 30 January 2018 21: 48 New
    +1
    28 Panfiloce 5c, (let's see how the Russians are fighting, I KAZAKH, and what's the difference)
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    This is the main thing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  20. ando_bor
    ando_bor 30 January 2018 22: 33 New
    0
    The border of civilizations - the Dzungarian gate, the Kazakhs on our part, they do not have to choose.
    Why the border crosses there is another big question.
  21. already a Muscovite
    already a Muscovite 30 January 2018 22: 58 New
    +2
    Zogak,
    the argument is gorgeous

    and then ... "Answering questions, including those related to Dinmukhamed Kunaev, Nazarbayev asked me not to say extra words about him, to give him an opportunity to rest calmly. But, as Satybaldy Totanov recalls," thinking a little and surprising everyone present, he unexpectedly said: “Kunaev is not a Kazakh, in his own hand-filled questionnaire for admission to the party, he wrote down that he is a Tatar.” “I don’t care who his nationality is ... But the great ones, they always bomb about this ... It’s a shame for them that there are so many years of rules are not Kazakh ...
    .
    1. Zogak
      Zogak 30 January 2018 23: 24 New
      +1
      Quote: already a Muscovite
      and then ... "Answering questions, including those related to Dinmukhamed Kunaev, Nazarbayev asked me not to say extra words about him, to give him an opportunity to rest calmly. But, as Satybaldy Totanov recalls," thinking a little and surprising everyone present, he unexpectedly said: “Kunaev is not a Kazakh, in his own hand-filled questionnaire for admission to the party, he wrote down that he is a Tatar.” “I don’t care who his nationality is ... But the great ones, they always bomb about this ... It’s a shame for them that there are so many years of rules are not Kazakh ...


      Given the then existing tribal structure of the Kazakhs, it is very difficult to attribute to a particular family and become a Kazakh. Specifically, Kunaev came from the genus of the elder Zhuz.
      In addition, there is a genetic analysis of his nephew Diyar Kunayev, which showed that he belongs to Haplogroup C3 (M217 +). This haplogroup is not found in the Tatars. lol

      By the way, I also do not care who he was, but the truth is more expensive. But this trick attributing someone else's nationality is a very popular thing. I probably heard that Medvedev is a Jew Mendel. lol
      1. already a Muscovite
        already a Muscovite 30 January 2018 23: 43 New
        +2
        Quote: Zogak
        . But this trick

        So they themselves argue about this ... They have right now and Kalmyk elbasy ... or Uyghur ... they have not decided yet in short ... laughing
        1. Zogak
          Zogak 30 January 2018 23: 44 New
          +1
          Quote: already a Muscovite
          So they themselves argue about this ... They have right now and Kalmyk elbasy ... or Uighur ... they have not decided yet in short ... laughing


          Well, or Stalin, you had a Georgian, and after 08.08.08, the Stalinist patriots make him Ossetian. lol
          1. already a Muscovite
            already a Muscovite 31 January 2018 01: 16 New
            +1
            For the first time I hear ... about the Ossetian ... "Not the slaves" which, Stalin wrote to the Jews, they heard and read this more than once ... But they can, they are in pots ... laughing
            1. Zogak
              Zogak 31 January 2018 09: 26 New
              +1
              Quote: already a Muscovite
              For the first time I hear ... about Ossetia


              I read at the notorious goblin
  22. already a Muscovite
    already a Muscovite 30 January 2018 23: 08 New
    +1
    Siban,
    Are you a scarecrow, why are you banned in Yandex ?? You type your fingers in the search line, “Kunaev Tatar Nazarbayev” in any order, and you begin to rejoice at your greatness ... Give him proofs .... ahahahaha ....
    It’s not childish for you to realize that the Kazakh did not control you ...
    And do not touch the Chukchi ... Otherwise, you’ll be offended ... great ...
    1. Siban
      30 January 2018 23: 25 New
      0
      Quote: already a Muscovite
      Are you a scarecrow, banned in Yandex?
      And you "Unaccounted for"wassat?!
      Quote: already a Muscovite
      It’s not childish for you to realize that the Kazakh did not control you ...
      Why bomb somethingrequest that is, that is, we openly admit - the Chingizids ruled at one time, in Soviet times - the Pole Pestkovsky, the Georgian Naneishvili, the Jew Goloshchekin, the Armenian Mirzoyan, the Ukrainian Ponomarenko, Uyghur Yusupov, Russian Kolbin ..
      Note, neither Mirzoyan, nor Goloshchekin, even Yusupov are not recorded in Kazakhsrepeatbut something impatient with Kunaev .. request
      Quote: already a Muscovite
      And do not touch the Chukchi ..
      And what about the Chukchi wink?! They are well donegood at one time, Russian Cossacks were shown "where and how the crayfish hibernateangry"
      1. Zogak
        Zogak 30 January 2018 23: 27 New
        0
        Quote: Siban
        ruled at one time Genghisides


        The same Kazakhs as the rest. Or then all the tribes of Mongolian origin, which will be more than half written in the Mongols?
      2. already a Muscovite
        already a Muscovite 30 January 2018 23: 48 New
        +2
        Quote: Siban
        And what about the Chukchi ?! They are well done

        Of course, well done .. I told you not to touch ... (from the wiki) the Chukchi treat all their neighbors extremely arrogant and not a single nation in their folklore, with the exception of Russians and themselves, is named as a people. I am a man for the Chukchi, but you are not ... albeit a great one ... now live with this ... laughing laughing
        1. Siban
          31 January 2018 00: 17 New
          0
          Quote: already a Muscovite
          Of course well done ..
          So, with Kunaev’s “Tatarism” the question has disappeared.bully
          Quote: already a Muscovite
          Count it up?
          "Bruffy's Pruffs" (c)drinks
          Quote: already a Muscovite
          I am a man for the Chukchi, but you are not ...
          You hang out with the Chukchi, Chukchevedlaughing or Chukchozhanlol?!
          Quote: already a Muscovite
          now live with it ...
          I lived and will livehi and shovikov still outlive ..
          1. already a Muscovite
            already a Muscovite 31 January 2018 01: 11 New
            +2
            Quote: Siban
            So, with Kunaev’s “Tatarism” the question has disappeared.

            Why is that?? From the fact that you believe that Kunaev is Kazakh, he does not cease to be a Tatar ...
            Quote: Siban
            "Bruffy's Pruffs" (c)

            Come on, with your fingers ... I pointed out the source ... And then they turned brown, first they were proofs, and then a horse with Wi-fi ...
            Quote: Siban
            and I’ll survive the chauvinists.

            So you are the chauvin and fascist, did you decide to be the last to die in your chauvinist? ...
            1. Siban
              31 January 2018 08: 49 New
              0
              Quote: already a Muscovite
              Why is that?? From the fact that you believe that Kunaev is Kazakh, he does not cease to be a Tatar ..
              I repeat it is not difficult laughing
              Why did the Kazakhs record precisely Dinmukhamed, and not the same Yusupovrequest? Following your bad logic, then Mirzoyan should be a Kazakh and Ponomarenko, but nevertheless ..
              Quote: already a Muscovite
              ... I indicated the source ..
              OBS - your sourcebully
              In this way, I can write that the user "is already a Muscovite" - Tridaras repeat
              Quote: already a Muscovite
              So you are the chauvin and fascist
              The fact that "already a Muscovite" does not consider himself a chauvin, he will not cease to be a chauvin .. yes
              1. already a Muscovite
                already a Muscovite 31 January 2018 09: 18 New
                0
                I repeat it is not difficult

                it’s not hard for me either
                You type your fingers in the search line, "Kunaev Tatar Nazarbayev" in any order, and you begin to rejoice at your greatness ... Give him proofs .... ahahahaha ....

                Quote: Siban
                So Makar and I can write

                What kind of makar ?? Why are you missing a mambet? I’m watching you already and insults have passed, eh? Great honorable horse breeder of the Genghis-Kachkuk tribe? ... lol
                Sibanistic chauvinist ... ahahaha ... laughing
                1. Siban
                  31 January 2018 09: 33 New
                  0
                  Quote: already a Muscovite
                  Why are you missing a mambet?
                  Already a Muscovite - "Black Mamba" lol
                  Quote: already a Muscovite
                  I’m watching you already and insults have passed, eh?
                  I didn’t even start .. hi
                  Quote: already a Muscovite
                  Great honorable horse breeder of the Genghis-Kachkuk tribe?
                  I repeat - where am I, and the Kazakhs on the topwar called themselves "Velikimi"?
                  Quote: already a Muscovite
                  Sibanistic chauvinist ... ahahaha ..
                  И repeat ?!
        2. Zogak
          Zogak 31 January 2018 09: 27 New
          +1
          Quote: already a Muscovite
          Of course, well done .. I told you not to touch ... (from the wiki) the Chukchi treat all their neighbors extremely arrogantly and not a single nation in their folklore, with the exception of Russians and themselves, is named as people. © Prikin ?? I am a man for the Chukchi, but you are not ... albeit a great one ... now live with this ... laughing laughing


          It’s in vain that you mentioned Chukchi folklore here. lol Do you know how the Russians are actually depicted there?
          1. already a Muscovite
            already a Muscovite 31 January 2018 09: 36 New
            0
            Yes, do not care ... We have not been painted with any paint ...
            1. Zogak
              Zogak 31 January 2018 09: 38 New
              +1
              Quote: already a Muscovite
              Yes, do not care ... We have not been painted with any paint ...


              Well, let's say you are not a man for them.
              1. already a Muscovite
                already a Muscovite 31 January 2018 10: 22 New
                0
                Have you become proficient in Chukchi folklore? The Chukchi recognize for people only themselves and Russians ... So it’s you who are not a person to them, but Merkichkin ...
                1. Zogak
                  Zogak 31 January 2018 10: 30 New
                  +1
                  Quote: already a Muscovite
                  Have you become proficient in Chukchi folklore? The Chukchi recognize for people only themselves and Russians ... So it’s you who are not a person to them, but Merkichkin ...


                  Gee. That's what the Chukchi consider you

                  1. already a Muscovite
                    already a Muscovite 31 January 2018 11: 20 New
                    0
                    GY ... Eradicate from your blunt brains everything Russian and you will see in yourself, all the abomination of desolation. You too, shto le calbit ?? Well, I would say right away, they say, right now I will present the Urus to you ... And you, like that, queen, got along, and are you trolling me ?? ..hahamba ... still I appreciated ..

                    "There was a little girl named Gnk-ŋeut. People gathered in a tent for a grateful sacrifice. They closed the smoke hole and began to sing. But they were not people, but dogs. Some of them sang:" keu, keu, keu. "Others barked: “koon, koon, koon!” [262] Then the hostess of the tent said to the girl: “Look! .. Who sings this?” Why did they close the entrance and smoke outlet? "The girl found a gap and looked inside. There were all dogs. The Chukchi then came and beat them. The dogs fled west and became Russian. Some of them remained, however, dogs, and others began to use them. for the ride. Those who were beaten by the Chukchi were angry with them and started the war. Oh, we don’t know. Our people beat the dogs, and they became people. "[263] muzzles instead of faces.
                    Tales like the one given, of course, could only be found among reindeer herders, as opposed to Russian dog lovers ...
                    The Aztecs also believed that it was not right to pray to the gods, and for this their gods punished the six-legged devils ... So all your efforts, Merkichkin, are funny .... laughing
                    1. Zogak
                      Zogak 31 January 2018 11: 24 New
                      +1
                      Gee, how that bombed. laughing What is Kalbit?
                      1. already a Muscovite
                        already a Muscovite 31 January 2018 11: 39 New
                        0
                        So it’s you ... otherwise you probably didn’t know ...
                      2. AllXVahhaB
                        AllXVahhaB 3 February 2018 12: 02 New
                        0
                        Quote: Zogak
                        What is Kalbit?

                        Hmm ... I didn’t think it would come to that ... It's like a nigga to call a nigga ... Offended ...
                        You can translate try: cal bit No.
                        And you can recall a comic fable:
                        There was such a batyr, and his name was Kalbit. He came to any village, and could go to any yurt that he liked. Moreover, he could choose any thing, beat the owner and pick up his wife. The name of this man frightened peaceful villagers so much that mothers frightened their children with it. Like, Kalbit will come, and he will take it with you if you do not go to bed in time.
  23. abrakadabre
    abrakadabre 31 January 2018 01: 08 New
    +1
    most of all from the defeat of the Dzungaria Kazakhs won - they managed to occupy the most fertile nomadic.
    Something did not impress me on the southern coast of Balkhash with the obesity of grasses. A semi-desert in which from a bunch to a bunch of frail grass from 30 cm to a meter. Clay soils and salt marshes. Normal (not chic) ​​herbage only in narrow floodplains of the rivers and in the nearest surroundings of the mountains.
    In fairness, in Bekpakdal (this is west and north of Balkhash) the grass is even thinner. Only from Karaganda and to the north the steppe can be called a relatively normal pasture.
  24. Zogak
    Zogak 31 January 2018 13: 06 New
    +1
    already a Muscovite,
    Quote: already a Muscovite
    So it’s you ... otherwise you probably didn’t know ...


    Some pig words. lol
    1. already a Muscovite
      already a Muscovite 31 January 2018 16: 12 New
      0
      for you, shoshka is my native language, ana tili ...
      1. Zogak
        Zogak 31 January 2018 18: 26 New
        +1
        More correct lol

        Quote: already a Muscovite
        for me, shoshka is my native language
        1. already a Muscovite
          already a Muscovite 31 January 2018 19: 09 New
          0
          for you, for you ... laughing
          1. Zogak
            Zogak 31 January 2018 22: 10 New
            +1
            Corrected:
            lol

            Quote: already a Muscovite
            oink oinklaughing
  25. NF68
    NF68 31 January 2018 16: 21 New
    0
    Quote: SpnSr
    Quote: NF68
    The Dzhungars were still robbers and the Kazakhs got it hard. No wonder that the Kazakhs wished to stay farther from the jungars.

    I’ve heard closer to the end of the last century about the Kyrgyz kaisaks, but about the Dzungars, Kazakhs and other nationalities in the stories about Turkestan there is no end of the 19 century, I heard about the khanates, but somehow without a nationality definition! And he himself could end up in Persia, or become a native Kazakh or Tajik, yes, with the territories in which my ancestors lived now part of Kazakhstan, part of Uzbekistan.


    I used to live in East Kazakhstan. From the south to us was far away. More than once I heard a legend about Khan Ablai in whose honor the river Ablaketka in Ust-Kamenogorsk was named according to the same legend. In our region, nomadic Kazakhs did not live permanently because of the harsh winter.
  26. Zogak
    Zogak 1 February 2018 17: 34 New
    0
    ukoft,

    Well, the fact that the Kazakhs and Kyrgyz did not exterminate and took away prisoners have already recognized. OK.


    And here are the Kyrgyz? And they exterminated captured those who surrendered.

    Further, Ablai became friends with the Chinese only after he himself lost to them. a second Chinese campaign was expected, so he asked the amursan to leave. I could always pass it.


    Yes, everything is true and, along with the Chinese, he began to wet the Dzungars.

    if only in Siberia there was salvation, something I do not see any of the Kalmyks in Siberia today. but I see many descendants of assimilated Dzungars in the middle and especially older zhuzes. and without the Kazakhs, the Dzungars would have defeated the Chinese. Kazakhs themselves then could defeat them. since there was no unity among them.


    There is no much. Dzhungar on the male line among the Kazakhs is minuscule. Five percent if typed already well.
    In short, you ignoramus excuse me.

    from smallpox died no less than from the Chinese. it is a fact


    This is not a fact.
  27. Zogak
    Zogak 1 February 2018 17: 42 New
    0
    ukoft,
    Quote: ukoft
    let's go without poking, please.
    how massive was that? What do you think Kazakhs constantly robbed neighbors or each other? there was a barymt, but this concerned only horses. the bride could be stolen from time to time. but steal from a neighboring kind of people and sell into slavery ??? it wasn’t. this genus would have been overwhelmed by everyone.


    They did not sell slaves to Kazakhs, but prisoners of other nationalities. It clearly says who they sold.

    with the jungars, most of the prisoners either assimilated or returned over time. mutually with. often, especially in central Kazakhstan, on the Kazakh small hills, they roamed alternately. there were many wives from the stolen or something like that. moreover, their children were considered the same as from their women.


    About the assimilation of men is a myth. Wives, yes they became their own.

    in general, the attitude towards children was different. they were considered primarily as housekeepers. therefore, they took other people's children with pleasure.
    girls could be given for a good dowry. here.


    Well, girls, yes. But the boys i.e. born from another man’s nafig nobody needed.

    and Bukhara, Tatars, and little by little others traded among the nomads.
    Kazakhs themselves, first of all, drove cattle for sale, wool and leather. didn’t deal with tranquil trade.


    And they also drove prisoners for sale. :)
  28. Zogak
    Zogak 3 February 2018 13: 08 New
    +1
    AllXVahhaB,
    Quote: AllXVahhaB
    Hmm ... I didn’t think it would come to that ... It's like a nigga to call a nigga ... Offended ...
    You can translate try: cal bit no
    And you can recall a comic fable:
    There was such a batyr, and his name was Kalbit. He came to any village, and could go to any yurt that he liked. Moreover, he could choose any thing, beat the owner and pick up his wife. The name of this man frightened peaceful villagers so much that mothers frightened their children with it. Like, Kalbit will come, and he will take it with you if you do not go to bed in time.


    Well here is an analogue of the Russian schwein, not a nigga. laughing
  29. Zogak
    Zogak 3 February 2018 17: 12 New
    +1
    AllXVahhaB,

    By the way, do you know the Kazakh proverb about what should be kept nearby if your friend is Russian?
  30. KaPToC
    KaPToC 4 February 2018 20: 20 New
    +1
    Quote: AllXVahhaB
    It is impossible to discuss what is not.

    Again insults, apparently to refute my words you have no knowledge ... and never will be.