Military Review

Slaves - a pillar of democracy

87
A lot of testimonies of those who happened to live in the classical period of ancient stories, and these people (highly educated for the most part) considered him a perfect time. And are they wrong? Temples were erected on the Acropolis, sculptors sculpted marvelous statues of amazing perfection, and scholars made great discoveries. At the same time, the ancient Athenians founded a democracy, a completely new, more progressive system of governing society, than the monarchy. But what was the basis of Athenian democracy? What was its economic basis? This will be our story.



Even freed, the Athenian slaves had no right to serve in the army. At best, they could be rowers on triremes. Hoplite could only be a citizen. The image of the hoplite putting on the armor on the side “A” of the red-figure amphora. 510 — 500 BC er (State Antique Collection. Munich)

Democracy for the elect

First of all, democracy in Athens did not exist for everyone, but only for the elect. For example, slaves, of whom there were a great many, had absolutely no political rights, however, Athenian women also. Foreigners, the Athenians called them Meteks, who lived and worked in Athens, were not considered citizens, and therefore also did not have the right to vote. Scientists have calculated that only 30 000 citizens of Athens from the three hundred thousand population of the city (and this is only ten percent), could take part in the political governance of the state.

When in 447g. BC. Pericles voiced the idea of ​​restoring the temples on the Acropolis (the Persians without mercy destroyed the sanctuaries of the Athenians). So almost all the work of recreating them fell on the slaves.

It is curious that Xenophon, the Greek historian, in one of his writings once remarked that in a perfect family a man is obliged to sleep with his spouse, and not a slave. He was extremely negative about the fact that the rebel slaves had children, because he believed that the offspring of slaves would be much worse than their ancestors.

The cares of the owners - on the slave shoulders

The true power of the people in Athens did not exist until the time when in 507 BC did not carry out reforms of Klisfen He divided the local population not according to wealth or position, but exclusively “by place of residence”. And something similar to our modern constituencies came out. Important decisions taken on issues of domestic and foreign policy were taken by Ecclesia or the general meeting of citizens, convened forty times a year. According to the meeting, for the adoption of legal decisions on cases of public administration required the presence of six thousand citizens.

In addition to the meetings of citizens, there were many diverse councils and meetings that collegially made decisions on problems of justice and law, as well as resolved issues of command and control, fleet, ecclesiastical institutions and other equally important components of Athenian society. It is known, for example, that only the Trial Chamber (Dicasterium) held meetings two hundred times a year.

In Athens, any resident could participate in public administration. However, the one who took part in the case of truly national importance, and then also did homework, carried a rather heavy burden: it was extremely difficult to combine both cases. It was possible to solve the problem in a very simple way - to “buy” more slaves and ... let them do housework for the owner! That is why in Athens the children of slaves, growing up, became slaves, and even if the slave owner himself was their father, this did not save the children from slavery. Fortunately, it was not accepted to slave for debts in Athens, since the reforms of Solon in 594 BC. it was canceled. Solon forbade the sale of indigenous citizens for the debts of slavery. For the citizens themselves, this was a great relief.

Colonies - slave suppliers

The Greeks thought of themselves as a cultural nation thanks to the fortunate location of their state, which the Mediterranean and Black Sea reliably guarded against barbarians. The Greeks perfectly understood their advantage among other states of the Mediterranean and Black Seas. But there was a commodity that was extremely necessary for the Greeks - slaves. Actually, the demand for slave labor was a stimulus to the formation of colonies. Because of them, then there were wars, expeditions were equipped, or it was a peaceful trade aimed at buying slaves.

The slaves either bought, or there was an exchange for cloth or wine, for those goods, acquiring which, the owner joined the cultural life. Wealth, exported from Greece, were acquired by local nobility. She never hesitated to sell the poor Athenians into slavery to the Greeks, just to find the desired goods and drinks. The fate of the “foreign slaves” sold outside of Greece was sad: they, as a rule, were assigned the lowest place in the slave hierarchy, and their work was not the easiest - silver mining in the mines of Lavrion. They worked at the mine in 483 BC, and since coins were made of mined silver in Greece, silver became the basis for the strong economy of Athens!

The luxury of Athens and child labor

Yes, the wealth of Athens was mainly formed on silver, which was mined by slaves in the mines of Lavrion, located approximately forty kilometers from the city. Ancient historians believed that men were miners there, but current historians believe that they used child labor everywhere. And since children are smaller, they were free to move along narrow tunnels of mines.

During the excavations near the mines, scientists seem to have confirmed this assumption. Finds in the graves and letters on the stones confirmed that in one of the five cases they had child skeletons. Alternatively, it can be assumed that the slaves lived at the mines with their families, and children's graves ... Well, death does not spare children. And yet, even large child mortality cannot explain such a number of children's graves, and even the children in the Lavrio graves were much older than those buried in other places where there were no graves of slaves. Scientists find this a serious proof that children were actually used in the mines, and died from overwork. Contemporaries reached Greek vases depicting the labor scenes of the miners of Lavrion, and very large ones are depicted next to the large figures, and it looks like they are children! So, all these amazing sculptures, wonderful ceramics, magnificent Parthenon architecture - all this was paid for by the hard work of children-miners, children of slaves.

Every Athenian family - according to the slave!

A great many Athenian families owned slaves. The poorest citizens also had at least one slave. Such a considerable demand for slaves could not satisfy either the influx of prisoners of war, nor the large birth rate in the families of slaves, because the townspeople acquired them in the slave market. Price varied according to age, gender, and health. The most expensive slaves were ranked in one talent, which is equivalent to 6000 drachmas. In the bulk, slaves were cheaper, however, their price did not fall less than 200 drachmas (for reference: the attic silver dram weighed 4,32 g of silver), and the price for children was much lower.

In the markets "slave goods" was exhibited as cattle. Often, male slaves were set completely undressed on the podium, so that buyers could see them from all sides. The slave was forced to perform several exercises, this made it possible to identify physical defects, if any. If the slave concealed flaws and the buyer discovered this, then the transaction could be invalidated.

Back in Athens there was a rule: if a slave died at the hands of the master, then the master should be deprived of life. The Athenians believed that otherwise the gods could be angry not only at the murderer, but also at all the inhabitants of the state. In all other respects, the master was free to do whatever he pleased with his own slaves.

Sometimes riots broke out among the slaves, sometimes they tried to escape. Caught waiting cruel spanking. However, bringing slaves from all sorts of places, the master risked much less. After all, the possibility that the slaves conspired and revolted was almost close to zero, because they spoke in different languages, therefore, did not understand each other! For example, in 414 BC, in one of the thirty-five registries found there, the twelve slaves recorded there were from different districts.

Freedom to the oppressed!

Alas, most of the slaves found death in captivity, but slavery in Athens was not always life-long. Slaves could count on liberation from slavery, if only the master would be so merciful. Or in old age, when, due to his age and infirmity, the slave could no longer work for his master all day long. And this happened only when the owner himself was already close to death.

Slaves-artisans had a greater chance, compared to other slaves, to gain the desired freedom. They could save a certain amount of money, and thus buy their freedom. Such actions were often considered unlawful, and therefore the slave was obliged to argue his right to redeem freedom. The cost of going to court was very high. To pay, an amount equal to five incomes of a slave was required. However, such expenses were worth it, because the fact of the release of a slave must be recorded. In addition, slaves had the right to assist each other in acquiring freedom through eranos. Then there was this type of lending. It was a kind of association in which slaves could keep their money, and then, as needed, take it. Freedom slaves often continued to contribute their share in eranos, thus helping materially to all those who wanted long-awaited freedom.
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  1. Square
    Square 1 February 2018 06: 41 New
    +7
    Eastern slavery was different from classical
    In the first, the slave is a member of the owner's family, in the second - a talking tool.
    In any case, good is not enough.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Amurets
      Amurets 1 February 2018 07: 42 New
      +5
      Quote: Square
      Eastern slavery was different from classical
      In the first, the slave is a member of the owner's family, in the second - a talking tool.
      In any case, good is not enough.

      Yes, I agree. Here is one example of the fate of Asian slaves. Edmond Dupuis. Antiquity Prostitution:
      The poet Philemon, imbued with a consciousness of the usefulness of such an institution, says the following about the Athenian dictherions:
      “O Solon, you were a true benefactor of the human race, because, they say, you were the first to think about what is so important for the people or, rather, for saving the people. Yes, I say this with full conviction when I see the numerous youth of our city, who, under the influence of their burning temperament, would begin to indulge in unacceptable excesses. That's why you bought women and put them in places where they have everything they need and are available to all those who need them. ”
      1. Vend
        Vend 1 February 2018 09: 52 New
        +4
        A very interesting approach, a curious version, but there was also democracy in Novgorod. But there were no slaves.
        1. Cat
          Cat 1 February 2018 18: 16 New
          +8
          I think it makes no sense to smell everything with one censer! Slaves of Hellas - the question is deeply not simple! By the way, if you recall one fact.
          During the Battle of Marathon, in addition to 10 free citizens, 000 Athenian slaves fought in the second line.
          In Novgorod? To be honest, wasn’t everyone in “northern democracy” free or had the right to elect and be elected? It is worth reading the texts of the “Truths” and “Judges” that have reached us. The Institute of "Purchase" or "Kabbalah" of Russian Truth in some cases will be abruptly slavery in Athens or helot in Sparta.
          Well, the last "history is written by the winners" so that we can safely assume that we do not know the truth about the perspiration of the Persians!
        2. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 1 February 2018 19: 36 New
          +5
          Come on! Seriously!? But nothing that in the 11 century, a slave in Kiev cost about 50 g. Of gold. In Novgorod, probably a little more expensive.
          1. Vend
            Vend 2 February 2018 09: 33 New
            +3
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Come on! Seriously!? But nothing that in the 11 century, a slave in Kiev cost about 50 g. Of gold. In Novgorod, probably a little more expensive.

            Give a link to the source please. In ancient Russia and in Novgorod in particular, there was no classical slavery. Slave labor in Russia did not become the basis of general production.
            Monuments of Old Russian Canon Law, part 1. SPb., 1908, stb. 10-11. “Yes,” he replies to the question of another cleric, “about some who like to buy, servants who have made the promised prayers, be with them, and then sell them in a shit ...”. This means that the slave lives side by side with the master: he prays, eats with him, and, apparently, works with him.
            In the early hours of the history of Eastern Slavs, there was no abyss between slaves and free: slaves were part of related collectives on the rights of its younger members and worked on an equal footing with the rest. Mauritius Strategist keenly felt the peculiarity of the position of slaves among the Slavs, who, according to him, limiting the slavery of captives by a certain period, offered them a choice: either “return home for a well-known ransom or stay there (in the land of the Slavs and Ants. - I.F.) on the position of free and friends. A.P. Pyankov. Serfdom in Russia before the formation of a centralized state, p. 43.
        3. Weyland
          Weyland 2 February 2018 20: 41 New
          +1
          Quote: Wend
          there was also democracy in Novgorod. But there were no slaves.

          yeah, right now .... it’s simply called “whitewashed serf.” It’s another matter that the owner was obliged to give one servant a year, 12 dresses, a jug of honey, 12 tons of berries to each servant, otherwise the servant could file a complaint about “ill-treatment "
  2. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 1 February 2018 06: 46 New
    +7
    Duc "the greatest democratic and exclusive" country on the planet has grown entirely on slavery fellow
    Yes, and now subconsciously nig ... sorry, African-American white cops do not consider people wassat
  3. Cheburator
    Cheburator 1 February 2018 06: 56 New
    20
    Where there are masters, there are slaves.
    Although their citizens have ceased to enslave, and then thank God. I also understand when strangers
  4. inkass_98
    inkass_98 1 February 2018 07: 06 New
    +7
    Can not be! What do you say, slavery in the Greek policies ... And the rest of the peoples around were completely progressive, they used the labor exclusively of office employees and civilian workers.
    By the way, the author is aware that the slave system was more progressive than the primitive communal society? And feudalism was the bright dream of slaves. laughing ?
    1. venaya
      venaya 1 February 2018 07: 56 New
      +5
      Quote: inkass_98
      .. And the rest of the peoples around were completely progressive, they used the labor exclusively of office employees and civilian workers.
      Incidentally, the author is aware that the slave system was more progressive than the primitive communal society?

      The statement about the greater “progressiveness” of the primitive communal society is more than surprising, apparently it is caused by the “peculiarities” of teaching in today's and previous school curricula. Look, during the reign of the Achaemenids in the first large empire of humanity, the Persian Empire (2700 years ago), a system of wage labor was widely used, which at that time was more cost-effective. Here on the VO website there was information about this: "How Empires were Created: Persia" https://topwar.ru/120594-kak-sozdavalis-imperii-p
      ersiya.html # comment-id-7230452. True, much depends on the culture of society and the naturally ethnic composition of the ruling stratum of society, not without it.
      1. Yarik
        Yarik 1 February 2018 15: 32 New
        +3
        The statement about the greater "progressiveness" of primitive communal society is more than surprising

        And it was written exactly the opposite ... 07:58, is it too early for drinks? wink
      2. EvilLion
        EvilLion 1 February 2018 16: 29 New
        +1
        The hired labor system is effective only if it is well invested in this work, for example, it is difficult to make a machine and a person can be taught for several months how to work on it. And in order for a shovel to work well enough, some prisoner or savage will do. The gladiators in Rome appeared precisely because there were too many prisoners, and some of them could be taken in the arena.

        In medieval Europe, slavery in the form of open sale is likely to go away, not so much for economic reasons, until the economic power of the Roman Empire only once again reached the thousand empire, but simply because the peoples themselves were noticeably equalized even within the framework of one religion, respectively those who could fall into slavery simply upon the seizure began to include only Gentiles.
        1. Weyland
          Weyland 2 February 2018 20: 55 New
          +2
          Quote: EvilLion
          there were too many prisoners, and some of them could be taken in the arena.

          yeah .... Ask about the cost of a good gladiator! This is a great sport, high stakes, "custom-made fights". Gladiators were too expensive, and they were not often killed - they could have killed the loser by “knockout” (fallen and not rising) - and for the loser on points, but not fallen, was special. the term "released standing." Often they killed only the so-called "provocateurs," that is, sold as gladiators for a serious crime; they always preferred dirty tricks, which is why the word "provocateur" got its current meaning.
    2. kalibr
      1 February 2018 07: 58 New
      +3
      inkass_98 “But what was the basis of Athenian democracy? What was its economic basis? Our story will go about that.” Read more carefully ...
      1. alebor
        alebor 1 February 2018 11: 06 New
        +4
        Quote: kalibr
        inkass_98 “But what was the basis of Athenian democracy? What was its economic basis? Our story will go about that.” Read more carefully ...

        I think this question could be covered even more broadly. Slavery is not only the basis of democracy at that time, but also the emergence and prosperity of classical ancient culture. Philosophy, theater, arts, sporting events - all this is the lot of wealthy people who have a lot of free time and leisure. If the Greeks “plowed” from morning till night, and completely exhausted went to bed in the evening, I’m afraid mankind would not recognize either Aristotle and Plato, Sophocles and Aristophanes, or the Olympic Games and other games.
        1. Rey_ka
          Rey_ka 1 February 2018 12: 06 New
          +4
          You're not right! "How much would Yermolova play better in the evening if she worked at the grinder in the afternoon!" (c) (Watch out for the car)
          1. Mikado
            Mikado 1 February 2018 22: 52 New
            +5
            "How much would Yermolova play better in the evening if she worked at the grinder in the afternoon!" (c) (Watch out for the car)

            a little pinup won't hurt wink drinks eeeh, sorry, there is no Good Doctor, he would support! "We have done a wonderful job, and have a nice rest!" (V.S. Vysotsky) drinks
            1. Amurets
              Amurets 2 February 2018 03: 56 New
              +2
              Quote: Mikado
              "We have done a wonderful job, and have a nice rest!" (V.S. Vysotsky)

              Nikolay. When the first "Free Economic Zones" were organized in the PRC, the young girls, after working a shift at the assembly line, went to the panel in the second shift in order to earn a living. I read this in the computer magazine "Iron." The magazine is technical and life and life, salaries of workers of one and campaigns for the production of components for computers were simply described. Here is a photo in your comment that reminded me of that article.
              1. Mikado
                Mikado 2 February 2018 19: 27 New
                +2
                having worked the shift on the assembly line, the second shift went to the panel in order to at least make a living

                In Thailand, it seems, almost a quarter of the female population stood on the panel; this is their national income. negative
                Yes, and it seems that the bearded Fidel of all the women of "not very heavy behavior" was made forcibly by taxi drivers. Although, probably, this is a bike. hi
    3. Vard
      Vard 1 February 2018 08: 03 New
      +6
      But I think it’s worse now than with the slave system ... they even fed the slaves ... and they didn’t ruin the work ... But when I got sick, they threw me out of work and, in the literal sense, have not yet received a validity pension for three months ... buy a meal was a problem ...
      1. Amurets
        Amurets 1 February 2018 09: 45 New
        +5
        Quote: Vard
        But when I got sick, they threw me out of work and, in the literal sense, for three months until I received a retirement pension ...

        Sorry. I was paid a bulletin for five months, but when I went to get a pension for disability, I thought I would earn a second heart attack.
    4. Weyland
      Weyland 2 February 2018 20: 44 New
      +1
      Quote: inkass_98
      Was the slave system more progressive than the primitive communal society?

      Of course, prisoners of war were sold into slavery, and in primitive society they were simply eaten in banana sauce!
      1. Antares
        Antares 2 February 2018 23: 11 New
        +1
        Quote: Weyland
        Of course, prisoners of war were sold into slavery, and in primitive society they were simply eaten in banana sauce!

        surplus product, and if production is only for oneself it is not profitable to produce extra mouths
        and then it went that the surplus product for money is more than compulsory, etc., etc.
  5. XII Legion
    XII Legion 1 February 2018 08: 28 New
    20
    An interesting article, a hot topic.
    I wish the author further creative success.
    We are not slaves, we are not slaves wink good
  6. parusnik
    parusnik 1 February 2018 08: 46 New
    +2
    He was extremely negative about the rebellious slaves having children, because he believed that the offspring of slaves would be much worse than their ancestors.
    .... And Xenophon was right ...
  7. ando_bor
    ando_bor 1 February 2018 09: 31 New
    +2
    Nothing personal. Slavery is a type of social relations characteristic of a certain stage in the development of productive forces.
    An example may not be in time, it’s closer to us: Beybars Kipchak boy captured and sold into slavery, rose due to military merit, successfully fought with the crusaders and Mongols, and became the Mameluke Sultan of Egypt, maybe because slaves were not allowed to serve in Athens. He was buried in Damascus, the Kazakhs arranged a grave for him, - they consider his own:
  8. Curious
    Curious 1 February 2018 10: 54 New
    +6
    With such an ambitious beginning - "But what was the basis of Athenian democracy? What was its economic basis?" - that superficial article. At the fifth grade level of high school. Nevertheless, the site must have "information manger". The author goes the wrong way.
    1. Cat
      Cat 1 February 2018 11: 41 New
      +3
      Come on Victor, don’t start! There is sadness, but there is a theme! So let’s raise the topic with comments!
      Although I, too, would not refuse to get a comparative analysis of the "slavery" of Athens with the dual monarchy of Sparta or the empire of the descendants of Cyrus. But alas, for lack of stamp we draw on the toilet !!!
    2. andrew42
      andrew42 1 February 2018 13: 33 New
      +1
      Yes, an analysis of the economic model of Athens would be very welcome, in the context of the conversation.
      1. haron
        haron 1 February 2018 14: 57 New
        +1
        Quote: andrew42
        Yes, an analysis of the economic model of Athens would be very welcome, in the context of the conversation.

        Is it possible today to conduct this analysis objectively?
        Even a comparison of modern societies and public relations often carries% errors, due to the incompleteness of information and subjectivity in the approach. The application of erroneous conclusions in practice may result in diplomatic scandal, or war.

        But with regard to Athens it is permissible to draw conclusions on the basis of scanty information; there is no practical application of conclusions. Or am I mistaken, and the conclusions can be applied somewhere?
    3. Antares
      Antares 2 February 2018 23: 14 New
      0
      Quote: Curious
      at the core of Athenian democracy

      democracy (and freedom) is always based on trade.
      Rome was also a republic and was not paid for its posts, and few had rights.
  9. ukoft
    ukoft 1 February 2018 11: 29 New
    0
    the foundation of Athenian democracy, the middle class. who had something to lose. the same is true for Italian cities of the Renaissance, the Roman government, the trading cities of Phenicia, etc.
    slavery generally, as an institute of public relations, has saved the lives of the loser. before slavery, the vanquished were simply cut to the root. if you could not impose a tribute.
  10. andrew42
    andrew42 1 February 2018 11: 49 New
    +3
    As for "democracy for the elite," the author is absolutely right. In fact, the ancient democracy is just a very expanded oligarchy. The oligarchs to strengthen their own system expand the number of "right holders". The remaining 70% of the population - overboard Rights. And entitled citizens will always find it harder to exercise their rights than oligarchs, because the “resources” are not the same, alas. At the same time, (1) the author would have to correct the phrase “selling the poor Athenians into slavery to the Greeks,” and even in the context of trade with the “barbarian” elites, this is a perfect oxymoron. (2) Discard the word “primitive” from the wording “primitive communal”, and you will immediately realize that the “backwardness” of such a system is not a fact. The slaveholding system is certainly not the winner here, except for the “momentary economic gain” contrary to stability and development. Too clumsy drove into our heads the "Darwin" classification of social formations. Slavery — Feudalism — Capitalism — are just different models for mobilizing resources to feed "their" elite, war with other external "elites", and enslaving "free material." So it turns out that “slavery-feud is the bourgeoisie” on the one hand, and “communal system” (in different versions) on the other. Plus ethnic strife, or the complementarity of ethnic groups.
  11. Yura Yakovlev
    Yura Yakovlev 1 February 2018 11: 53 New
    +3
    According to their genetic parameters, the Greeks. are typical representatives of haplogroup J (38,9%), and haplogroup E1b1b1a2 (subgroup E). They found the highest concentration of E1b1b1a2:

    Achaean Greeks - 44%;
    Magnesian Greeks - 40%;
    Argos Greeks - 35%.
    For the Greeks, the sum of E + J + G = from 81 to 93%, which allows you to confidently identify the Greeks with Semites. Moreover, the Greeks have two main Semitic components are almost identical: the so-called. Sephardic direction is about 40%, and so-called. Ashkenazi - also more than 40%.

    Greeks and Semites are not at all indigenous to "Greece." The coming of the carriers of Semitic haplogroups to "Greece" took place from the territory of East Africa and Anatolia. This is the main reason for slavery in Greece, and not the transition to a more advanced economic formation.
    1. Curious
      Curious 1 February 2018 12: 17 New
      +6
      You, as I understand it, a representative of the "renovation historians"? In general, the indigenous people of the territory of modern Greece should obviously be considered Neadertals. What are their haplogroups? And do modern Greeks have them?
      1. Yura Yakovlev
        Yura Yakovlev 1 February 2018 14: 56 New
        +1
        We are talking about modern types of man, and the Neanderthal man does not belong to them, although, perhaps, he was a contemporary of the inhabitants of Kostenok. Crafts from the bones of Neaderthals were found in personal belongings of the inhabitants of Kostenok.
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 1 February 2018 15: 47 New
          +1
          But according to historical and genetic parameters, the Greeks of today and the Greeks of the times described in the article are completely different people!
          The Semites walked there in hordes - they stomped for almost 2000 years.
        2. ando_bor
          ando_bor 1 February 2018 15: 52 New
          +1
          Quote: Yura Yakovlev
          Crafts from the bones of Neaderthals were found in personal belongings of the inhabitants of Kostenok.

          They struck that bone in the genes, the grandfather of the buried one, not a Neanderthal at all, but a specific person.
    2. andrew42
      andrew42 1 February 2018 13: 28 New
      +2
      That's right. The Crito-Mycenaean culture has nothing to do with the "Grekhs" - the findmen, it was created by completely different ethnic groups, "autochthonous" - as the masters of historical science express themselves. The apotheosis of slavery is the odious Sparta: constantly with a sword, constantly pressing the Messenians turned into slavery (the indigenous population, relative to the Lacedaemonians).
      1. Curious
        Curious 1 February 2018 14: 35 New
        +4
        And who argues with this? In the article, was the question of settling the territory of present Greece considered? The article was an attempt to somehow illuminate the life of Athens, in particular - the position of slaves. The attempt failed, I do not argue, but the comrade immediately got in with haplogroups. How are these issues related?
        1. Yura Yakovlev
          Yura Yakovlev 1 February 2018 15: 04 New
          +1
          "but the comrade immediately got involved with haplogroups. How are these issues related?"
          Everything is inherent in ourselves, depending on our heredity. For some, slavery, for others, equal cooperation. After all, it is absolutely no coincidence that the Slavs did not have a slave system.
          1. Simargl
            Simargl 1 February 2018 15: 49 New
            +2
            Quote: Yura Yakovlev
            After all, it is absolutely no coincidence that the Slavs did not have a slave system.
            Quite by accident, he was with the Slavs. Perhaps a little softer than the classic.
            1. Yura Yakovlev
              Yura Yakovlev 1 February 2018 16: 02 New
              +4
              These are your guesses at the level of conjecture. Isn’t it easier to recall the “holy nineties of Naina Yeltsin,” when a social community called the “Soviet people”, and brought up on common legal and moral standards, instantly broke up. Azerbaijanis became traders, Georgians became thieves in law, Tajiks became janitors, Chechens and Ingush became slave owners, Jews became bankers, and Moldovans became builders.
              1. Simargl
                Simargl 1 February 2018 21: 11 New
                0
                Quote: Yura Yakovlev
                These are your guesses at the level of conjecture.
                These are not only my assumptions. However, for starters, you need to determine what a "slave" is ... not that you can go to extremes.
                Quote: Yura Yakovlev
                Isn’t it easier to recall the "holy nineties of Naina Yeltsin" when a social community called "Soviet people"
                And I didn’t forget. As he did not forget that it was not Yeltsin who ruined everything - everything began much earlier.
          2. kalibr
            1 February 2018 16: 33 New
            +1
            Read Rybakova ... Historian ...
            1. Yura Yakovlev
              Yura Yakovlev 1 February 2018 16: 49 New
              +3
              "Read Rybakova ... Historian ..."
              How seriously can Rybakov be taken if he took the date of the founding of Novgorod from the ceiling.
              1. Curious
                Curious 1 February 2018 17: 51 New
                +4
                And how seriously can you take your historical maxims or, more correctly, historical hallucinations? Actually, I asked you a direct question - are you a "folklorist - renovationist"? Judging by your comments, yes. There are no questions for you. Guests from the parallel world - a recent phenomenon often. We are used to it.
                1. Mikado
                  Mikado 1 February 2018 21: 44 New
                  +3
                  in times of lack of confidence in the future, and in the absence of an official ideology, people need to believe in something. I think this is an axiom. They were sure - they were communists! Under Nicholas II, they were sure that they walked in parade on religious processions in orders and uniforms (for some reason, these frames were remembered from the old chronicle). And in the 90s all of a sudden sharply became believers! And then .. yes, there are a lot of theories. People need to believe in something ... It's not their fault. hi For I say this, Mikado, and believe in my word! Beware of swearing on the site, for I will be soiling over you then! fellow Well, how come a preacher from me, Viktor Nikolaevich? wink drinks
                  1. Curious
                    Curious 1 February 2018 22: 13 New
                    +2
                    Like a high-explosive steak!
                    1. Mikado
                      Mikado 1 February 2018 22: 37 New
                      +3
                      thank you, I always knew that you would part me with a kind word laughing
                      Like a high-explosive steak!

                      I bow, appreciated the brain truth. good Bravo, Viktor Nikolaevich, bravo! (rephrasing Prince Peter Bagration) drinks
                2. Yura Yakovlev
                  Yura Yakovlev 2 February 2018 09: 08 New
                  +1
                  You do not like my opinion, but I do not like yours. I see nothing wrong with that. Any new arguments will appear and everything will change. Either I will take your position, or you will agree with me. The main thing is not to take everything indiscriminately for the truth.
              2. kalibr
                1 February 2018 21: 59 New
                +1
                Yura Yakovlev And just that? What did you get from the ceiling?
                1. Yura Yakovlev
                  Yura Yakovlev 2 February 2018 09: 26 New
                  0
                  Sorry, I hastened to answer, I had to urgently leave, so it turned out some kind of stupidity. Rybakov, of course, is a great scientist, but to make mistakes and stupid things is common for everyone, and not only great ones.
                  Fifteen years after the liberation of Novgorod from the Nazis, the city was restored within the pre-war borders and restored in terms of population. An urgent holiday was needed. The Novgorod regional committee of the CPSU asked Rybakov to think over the occasion for the holiday, and Boris Alexandrovich invented 15 years of the founding of Novgorod in 1100. And so it went - it went, although it does not coincide with historical truth. And what would happen if the chronicler Nestor wrote his PVL today? This is of course Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, the Power of Siberia and Gazprom gas pipelines. There is a little truth in every historical work, and everything else is a subjective opinion and someone else's order. That is exactly what I wanted to express in the phrase about Rybakov.
                  1. kalibr
                    2 February 2018 13: 56 New
                    +2
                    You, of course, are right in that people are mistaken and do a lot of things ... "such". But to judge by one date about all the studies based on the analysis of many sources, I personally would not. And the date ... Well, the Communists asked ... well, why shouldn't they please them? But the sources in his works did not become worse from this.
                    1. Yura Yakovlev
                      Yura Yakovlev 2 February 2018 15: 25 New
                      +1
                      kalibr
                      "But the sources in his work didn’t get any worse."
                      In this I completely agree with you. In my opinion, each scientist is unique in his own way. One takes instinctively, the other systematic, the third obsession, if they did not have such qualities, then scientists would not. But here is the question. Over time, approaches to the analysis of their work change, as new research methods and even whole sciences appear, when using which, on the basis of the same data, completely opposite conclusions can be obtained. Genetics and ethnosocionics have now appeared. Looking through the descriptions of peoples on the basis of these sciences, from the point of view of mentality, both of the people being described and of the person who made this description, much can be weeded out as not corresponding to that reality or overestimated in the direction of increase or decrease. In this example, if there was slavery, then it must be considered from the position of the mentality of this people, then we can understand what it was.
                      1. kalibr
                        3 February 2018 13: 55 New
                        0
                        It is truth too! Everything is determined by the natural-geographical place of residence of society, the influence of climate and minerals.
    3. Weyland
      Weyland 2 February 2018 21: 01 New
      0
      Quote: Yura Yakovlev
      For Greeks, the sum of E + J + G = from 81 to 93%, which allows you to confidently identify Greeks with Semites

      G is Scythians (in our time - Ossetians and Georgians), E - Negroes (Obama, Napoleon and Hitler). In Kosovo Albanians, the E is more frequent than the Greeks (45%), and among Khokhlov-Zapadentskv - 35%. Try to tell them that they are Semites .. laughing By the way, J1 and J2 - also split apart long enough to write all of them in the Semites
      1. Yura Yakovlev
        Yura Yakovlev 3 February 2018 08: 02 New
        +1
        It is not a matter of Semites or anti-Semites, but that Venigret that formed during the formation of Ancient Greece. Crowds of immigrants from the Middle East have trodden this region more than once. Therefore, it is simply impossible to say something about the reliability of information that has reached us about Ancient Greece. It is necessary to reorder everything on the shelves.
  12. Rotmistr
    Rotmistr 1 February 2018 12: 00 New
    19
    And I recall the case when the Athenians who were captured in the battle of Syracuse (in my opinion) during the Peloponnesian war were sold without exception by the Spartans. So the Greeks and each other did not particularly spare.
    But that’s all right, slave system.
    And slaves (including in Eastern Europe) in the era of feudalism?
    What about 19th century slaves in the USA?
    The problem is interesting and deep, the author is well done and I hope to develop this topic
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 1 February 2018 19: 08 New
      +1
      Excuse me of course, maybe I don’t understand what, but, in my opinion, Syracuse is Sicily. The question arises: what side are they to the Peloponnesian Wars?
      1. Mikado
        Mikado 1 February 2018 21: 31 New
        +2
        The question arises: what side are they to the Peloponnesian Wars?

        Anton, direct. The Sicilian expedition was an integral part of the Peloponnesian war. Both sides had allies, and the Greek colonies were all over the Mediterranean, so the Athenians ended up in Sicily.
        1. Antares
          Antares 2 February 2018 23: 21 New
          +1
          Quote: Mikado
          Sicilian expedition was an integral part of the Peloponnesian war

          This war was a kind of pan-Greek and was fought both in the metropolis (Sparta + allies against Athens + allies) and in the colonies. We do not forget that the Athenian fleet gave more than once hope for victories for Athens, until it suffered its first and last failure ...
          1. Mikado
            Mikado 3 February 2018 11: 37 New
            +1
            this war was a kind of pan-Greek

            absolutely right. True, the Greeks after its completion did not stop loving each other, as a result of which there were a number of similar wars, and they themselves “cleared the way” for the Macedonians to conquer. hi
    2. Weyland
      Weyland 2 February 2018 21: 03 New
      +2
      Quote: Rotmistr
      What about 19th century slaves in the USA?

      And not only. In the colonies of France - until 1848, in Brazil - right up to 1888,
  13. Net
    Net 1 February 2018 17: 10 New
    +2
    Just as there was a slave system, it remained so that philosophers would not rename them for the sake of slave owners: slavery, feudalism, capitalism, socialism and others - isms. Weaning producers of labor results and appropriating them by the exploiters Then there was a natural weaning, now in the form of "taxes". The form has changed, the essence of slavery is not.
  14. abrakadabre
    abrakadabre 1 February 2018 21: 02 New
    +2
    Then the ancient Athenians founded democracy, a completely new, more progressive system of governing society than the monarchy
    A controversial statement about great progressiveness.
    The wealth exported from Greece was acquired by the local nobility. She didn’t hesitate for a minute, sold the poor Athenians into slavery to the Greeksjust to find the coveted products and drinks.
    What is it like? It's either a typo or something incoherent.
    Even in Athens there was a rule: if a slave perished at the hands of the owner, then the owner should also be deprived of life.
    Hmm ... Maybe I don’t know something ... But somehow it’s also debatable.
  15. Operator
    Operator 1 February 2018 21: 07 New
    0
    Democracy in the city-state of Athens was not based on slaves, but on a silver mine, jointly owned by the indigenous people of Athens.

    These owners (shareholders) were the ruling class of Athens with equal rights to vote. In addition, they did not pay any taxes, since their contribution to the city budget was in the form of income from the sale of silver.
    1. Mikado
      Mikado 1 February 2018 21: 46 New
      +1
      I remember that the word "talent" comes from the name of the measure of silver. So, sort of? drinks I could be wrong!
      1. Weyland
        Weyland 2 February 2018 21: 07 New
        +3
        So. The modern meaning is from the gospel parable about the slaves that the master gave to invest in business - one talent, the other two, the third five. Since it is understood that the master is the Lord, and talents are gifts, the word "talent" began to be used in the meaning of "God's gift"
        1. Mikado
          Mikado 2 February 2018 21: 14 New
          +1
          Thank you for enlightening! hi drinks
    2. kalibr
      1 February 2018 21: 56 New
      +1
      And who mined silver?
      1. Mikado
        Mikado 1 February 2018 21: 58 New
        +2
        Yes, the same, naked, "affected by the rights of non-citizens." Sorry to answer for the respected Operator hi
      2. Operator
        Operator 1 February 2018 22: 24 New
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        And who mined silver?

        More important, in what form of ownership was the mine (joint).

        A system called "democracy" also follows from the form of ownership, and the method of production (slave, as then, or machine, as it is now) is the second thing.
        1. kalibr
          2 February 2018 07: 52 New
          +1
          And no! What matters is not the form of ownership, but the attitude to work. Natural coercion, coercive or non-economic, and economic. And democracy does not follow ... it can be in any kind of attitude to work - clan or primitive communal, slaveholding, feudal (for example, medieval cities of the commune) and bourgeois. Textbook CULTUROLOGY, ed. prof. Baghdasaryan. Theme 7. Household culture. pg. 147 - 161.
          1. Operator
            Operator 2 February 2018 08: 11 New
            0
            Attitude to the work of biorobots is not considered laughing
            1. kalibr
              2 February 2018 13: 50 New
              +1
              This problem is the work of robots and people so far, so far, not worth it. But every day is becoming more relevant ...
  16. Prometey
    Prometey 2 February 2018 08: 49 New
    0
    The slave-owning mode of production in antiquity - the fantasies of K. Marx. It existed for a short period of time in America during plantation slavery in modern times.
    Statistics in antiquity were not kept - therefore, the numbers of thousands and hundreds of thousands of slaves in antiquity - most likely guesses of historians. The main producers were free small producers. The labor of slaves was used only in the household and in auxiliary work.
    1. Weyland
      Weyland 2 February 2018 21: 16 New
      +2
      Quote: Prometey
      The slave-owning mode of production in antiquity - the fantasies of K. Marx.

      Not certainly in that way. The "five-member" of Marx refers to Western society, going from Athens and Rome. Only there were slaves the main labor force. Just about the system, which Marx calls "eastern despotism" (and Marxists - "state-monopoly capitalism"), Marx began to write and abruptly quit - when he added that he was too suspiciously like the socialism predicted by him laughing
      1. kalibr
        3 February 2018 13: 52 New
        +1
        Totally agree with you!
  17. kalibr
    2 February 2018 13: 52 New
    +1
    Quote: Prometey
    The labor of slaves was used only in the household and in auxiliary work.

    Type of construction of the Acropolis and others like it ... There are documents, both Greek and Roman, where there are statistics and calculations. For starters, read at least Hesiod's "Proceedings and Days" ...
    1. Prometey
      Prometey 2 February 2018 17: 27 New
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      There are documents, both Greek and Roman, where there are statistics and calculations.

      There is no statistics there - 1 we write 2 in mind. Ancient historians wrote about the millionth Persian army that invaded Greece. The documents are the same. Will we believe?
      By the way, who built the pyramids, probably also slaves?
      And yes - the construction of the acropolis, roads and so on - this is ancillary work. In this case, the slave does not create the surplus product, he consumes it.
      1. Antares
        Antares 2 February 2018 23: 31 New
        0
        Quote: Prometey
        By the way, whoever built the pyramids, probably also slaves

        calculations showed that they would build for a long time, food would not be enough for such a horde, and multi-ton blocks would not be enough for people. The army also needed to protect and coerce such a horde ... in short, all of Egypt had to feed guard and coerce all that horde for many decades ... Yes, and work requires skill ...
        I do not agree with the topic. Well, slaves cannot be a support. So the whole system is democratic! Democratic Ancient Egypt, Babylon, China ... The Greeks also studied with the Egyptians and became a temporary carrier of the torch of civilization. Giving the world the Egyptian experience + adding their achievements. The Greeks themselves considered themselves as a product of the climate (they say they live in sufficient for the development of science).
        The economy of that world regarded slaves as an element of production / exchange. Given that they saved the life of that slave who could benefit.
        Well, it cannot be that slaves, as the basis of the economy, are the backbone of democracy. Is it possible to get the figures for the surplus product of slaves without the cost and remuneration of their labor?
  18. kalibr
    3 February 2018 13: 47 New
    0
    Quote: Prometey
    By the way, who built the pyramids, probably also slaves?

    About the construction of the pyramids I had here in VO a whole series of articles.
  19. kalibr
    3 February 2018 13: 49 New
    +1
    Quote: Prometey
    There is no statistics there

    You wrote it in a huff. Marc Porzi Caton described in detail how much what a slave needs, households based on slave labor. There is Roman law ... Ignorance is not an argument.
  20. kalibr
    3 February 2018 13: 51 New
    +1
    Quote: Prometey
    Ancient historians wrote about the millionth Persian army that invaded Greece. The documents are the same. Will we believe?

    And besides this and then from other people's words, do you know at least something about that time?
    1. Prometey
      Prometey 5 February 2018 12: 30 New
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      And besides this and then from other people's words, do you know at least something about that time?

      Dear, but about the past, the more distant, we can only know from other people's words. And what do I need to know specifically? The question is too globally posed.
  21. Freeman
    Freeman 6 February 2018 03: 06 New
    +1
    Even freed, the Athenian slaves did not have the right to serve in the army. At best, they could be trireme rowers. Hoplite could only be a citizen.

    Slaves - a pillar of democracy. And in the literal sense, and not just in the economic.
    Scythian slaves carried police service in Athens.
    They were bought by the Athenian state and were named differently: first - Scythians, now - archers, now - spevsinii. The last name was derived from the Athenian politician Speusin, who, according to legend, was the first to organize the Scythian police service.
    Their number was originally 300, but judging by the fact that some later sources refer to 1000 Scythian archers, it is possible that their number was later actually increased, which could be due to population growth and the complication of law enforcement in Athens. .
    The Scythian police were law enforcement officers in the city. In particular, their function was to monitor order in the national assembly and in the courts. According to the instructions of the officials, they, using a special red (in another interpretation, smeared with red paint) cord, drove the late people from the market to a meeting. During the meetings, they, again by order of the magistrates (they were priests in the national assembly), could remove from the rostrum speakers who were not on business or drunk. They, according to the relevant order, carried out the arrest, knitted or hammered into pads, as well as delivered to prison people who were guilty of anything against the state.
    As civil servants, they earned three salaries a day for this service..
    Aristophanes gives us several live scenes depicting the actions of the Scythian policemen. The most interesting and informative are the corresponding scenes in Themophoriadzus.
    Here the pritan with the Scythian archer arrests Euripidov’s agent in the women's collection of Mnesiloh:
    Tie it up
    Shooter, hammer in the pads! Here in the square
    Show the bastard! Watch out carefully!
    And if someone comes up, always whip with you.
    Hit how much power

    That is, the slave could whip the whip of a free citizen!
    The Scythian police, apparently, were dressed in their traditional outfit and armed with a bow, which follows from the very name of these guards (toxovtai) and is confirmed by the references to Aristophanes about the special quiver worn by them. Further, they were equipped with a small sword and scourge. The latter was precisely a weapon of police influence.
    Compared to the lives of ordinary slaves, their situation was better. They lived in more tolerable conditions, could acquire their own home and enjoyed relative freedom.

    In the lower right corner of the illustration, we see a Scythian police slave dressed in a traditional costume (cap, jacket, pants) and armed with a whip. At the direction of the magistrate, standing on a dais with a scroll in his hand, driving away from the meeting objectionable.
  22. wooja
    wooja 30 July 2018 20: 21 New
    0
    Democracy without slavery is unthinkable, such is the dialectic ... such is the nature of man. The Marxist periodization of history is a bluff, the forms of slavery are changing, but the essence remains the same, slavery still exists ... and will exist, freedom is not a right ... freedom is a privilege for which one must pay and fight. Democracy and slavery are two sides of the same coin,