Military Review

Goat over London

221



On January 21, 1944, the German Air Force launched Operation Steinbock (Steinbock - Mountain Goat) - the last attempt to launch massive airstrikes on the territory of Great Britain. The operation lasted three months and ended in complete failure, despite the fact that the main forces of the shock were attracted to it. aviation Luftwaffe - more than 580 bombers and fighter-bombers.

Steinbock was positioned as a “retaliation operation” for the Allied bombing of German cities and was not so much a military as a propaganda character. It was originally planned that in addition to the bombers, it would take partweapon“V-1 projectiles. But in November 1943, during the next raid, Americans leveled the Fau plant and finished goods warehouses. The cruise missiles had to be built from scratch, and their stock sufficient for an effective start of combat use , managed to accumulate only by June 1944-th.

Therefore, only conventional manned aircraft, which had to be tied up to the English Channel from all over Europe, exposing warring fronts, were involved in Steinbork. When the Red Army smashed the Wehrmacht in Ukraine, near Leningrad and in the Crimea, German bombers, instead of supporting their troops, flew to London at night, unsuccessfully trying to break the morale of the British. But what failed in 1940 year, especially could not succeed in 1944-m, when the balance of forces on the ground and in the air has become quite different.

In addition, the average level of training of German pilots and navigators during the war years has decreased significantly due to losses and forced-rush training of new flight personnel. As a result, the first massive raid on London, which took place on the night of 21 on 22 in January of 1944, ended in that only 40 from 430 bombers were able to reach the target. The rest scattered in the dark and dropped the combat load anywhere. Of the 768 tons of high explosive and incendiary bombs destined for London, only 62 tons fell on the city. At the same time, one officer and 74 civilians died. Several buildings were destroyed in the city and dozens of fires (including in the Palace of Westminster) were destroyed, but they were quickly extinguished.

German casualties were very serious - 36 bombers did not return from the raid. About half of them were shot down by night fighters "Moskito" and "Bofaiter", who found their targets using radar. 99 pilots died, 14 - captured. Having learned that most of the crews could not find London, although it was only kilometers away from German airfields to German airfields, Hitler became enraged and ordered to repeat the attacks until the British capital was destroyed.

The second raid took place on the night of 28 on 29 in January and ended similarly: 30 planes were bombed around the city, high-explosive 141 fell on the city and about 7000 incendiary bombs killed three soldiers and 41 civilian. From the "lighters" arose 145 fires, but they were all quickly eliminated. The casualties were 15 bombers and 59 crew members, of whom 54 died and the rest were captured. Similarly, the 3 / 4 and 13 / 14 raids were carried out in February, in which the Germans managed to kill a few dozen British people and destroy dozens of buildings at the cost of losing 25 bombers together with the crews.

And only at night with 18 on 19 February, the German pilots managed to complete the task. It was the most destructive bombing since the end of the “Battle of England”. That night, 175 bombers broke through to London, dropping roughly 250 tons of bombs. 245 people died in the city, 484 were seriously injured. More than 200 buildings were destroyed, 900 order was damaged, 480 fires broke out, water supply stopped in several areas, and one of the bombs broke through the pavement and 10 meters of soil, collapsed the subway tunnel, which was restored only a month later. The attackers cost all nine bombers.

Later night raids continued, but never once did the Germans manage to repeat the success achieved by 18 / 19 in February. Not only London was attacked, but also other cities, in particular, Bristol and Hull. However, due to the losses and the transfer of several bomber groups to Italy, the number of attackers decreased significantly. Accordingly, the effectiveness of air strikes has decreased.

The last major raid on London took place on the night of 18 on 19 April. Due to bad weather conditions, most of the 125 bombers that took part in it came back without even flying over the English Channel. Only 53 aircraft reached the British territory, but 17 of them were shot down, and the British estimated the damage from the raid as extremely insignificant.

In Operation Steinbock, the Germans irretrievably lost 329 bombers - much more than they were involved in the same period on the Eastern Front, where the decisive events unfolded. Of course, there, these bombers would have been much more necessary, but the Fuhrer and his entourage thought otherwise, and in the end - suffered defeats on both fronts. In Russia - on the ground, and over England - in the air.

The British, reflecting the attack of the mountain goat, lost just eight night fighters, shot down by bomber arrows or crashed in disasters. 1556 people died on the ground, the vast majority of whom were civilians.
On the screen saver - German bomber Non-177 "Greif" bombed London during Operation Steinbock, drawing by Jerry Bowcher. The operation involved 46 such bombers.



Dornier Do-217M and Non-177 bombers bombing England in the spring of 1944. Drawings by Mikhail Bykov.



Fighter-bomber FW-190F. 25 of such machines participated in Steinboc.



Do-217 in night camouflage. To participate in the operation "Steinbock" attracted 85 aircraft of this type.



English patrol interceptor "Mosquito", equipped with search radar.



Various types of radar mounted on Beafter fighters. Right - more perfect, with a parabolic antenna. On board, in the left car, nine small swastikas are visible, denoting shot down German planes.



Mosquito, flying through a cloud of burning gasoline from a German bomber shot down by it and exploded in the air. The plane burned paint and linen trim rudder, and the cockpit lamp dimmed. But the pilot managed to almost blindly put the car.



British officers near the crater, formed at the site of the crash of the shot down bomber Junkers Ju-88.



The remains of another member of the operation "Steinbock".



Pictures taken in London after the raids: the rescuer makes a girl from the ruins and an elderly gentleman on the ruins of his house.
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https://vikond65.livejournal.com/713378.html
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  1. Vard
    Vard 28 January 2018 05: 54
    14
    The war on two fronts played its role ... Those planes that bombed England ... They did not bomb the USSR ...
    1. Strashila
      Strashila 28 January 2018 06: 10
      +5
      Until June ... it was still far away ... it might have rebuked ... albeit by a little bit, but accelerated the opening of a second front.
      1. Infinity
        Infinity 28 January 2018 10: 11
        +6
        I remember that the USSR was trying to persuade us from 1941 ... But it was only begun in June 1944, and thanks for that, it took a lot of effort. But it’s already necessary for politicians and military men to say “thank you”. Ordinary soldiers usually performed their duty with honor in the war against the brown plague.

        Hitler is also a damn "genius." Preparation has fallen, the Luftwaffe’s superiority has evaporated, and he is like this: “Destroy London” ... Well, the English pilots did well, although what else was left for them?
        The presence of the first radars also helped. Ours didn’t have them until the end of the war, and it was much harder for our pilots to intercept German aircraft at night.
        1. Kot_Kuzya
          Kot_Kuzya 28 January 2018 10: 27
          +5
          Quote: Infinity
          Hitler is also a damn "genius." Preparation has fallen, Luftwaffe’s superiority has evaporated, and he’s like “Destroy London”

          This fact is another brick in favor of the version that the Battle of Britain was an operetta, as well as preparations for Operation Sea Lion. If Hitler had suffered a real defeat in the skies over Britain, then he would not have issued such an order in 1944, since he would have understood that if the Luftwaffe could not defeat the RAF in 1940, then in 1944, when the Luftwaffe was bled in the East and all still fierce fighting, then even more so will not be able to bomb London. And in 1940, Hitler simply imitated attacks on Britain, trying to force the British to peace, as we, for example, forced the Georgians to peace. If they wanted, then in a couple of days they would have captured all of Georgia and Mishiko in addition. Hitler was just an Anglophile and wanted to make an “Honorable Peace” with the British.
          1. NF68
            NF68 28 January 2018 16: 01
            +8
            Quote: Kot_Kuzya
            And in the 1940 year, Hitler simply imitated attacks on Britain, trying to force the British to peace, as we, for example, forced Georgians to peace.


            This imitation was expensive. The Germans lost 1733 aircraft + many experienced crews. The losses of the British were much smaller.
            1. Alf
              Alf 28 January 2018 20: 27
              0
              Quote: NF68
              This imitation was expensive. The Germans lost 1733 aircraft + many experienced crews.

              And he surrendered pretentiously.
              1. NF68
                NF68 29 January 2018 16: 19
                +1
                Quote: Alf
                And he surrendered pretentiously.


                The British had a different opinion on this. Apparently they had reasons for that.
                1. Alf
                  Alf 29 January 2018 22: 13
                  0
                  Quote: NF68
                  Quote: Alf
                  And he surrendered pretentiously.


                  The British had a different opinion on this. Apparently they had reasons for that.

                  So I say, the Cat sometimes (often) carries such garbage.
                  1. NF68
                    NF68 30 January 2018 18: 00
                    0
                    [/ quote] So I say, the Cat sometimes (often) carries such garbage. [/ quote]

                    These are little things. The site http://alternathistory.com/ has a tireless figure under the name Vadim Petrov. Here he is carrying garbage for real. Moreover, every year more and more.
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 30 January 2018 20: 16
                      0
                      Quote: NF68
                      indefatigable figure under the name Vadim Petrov

                      Colleague, are you sure that this is the right place to discuss users of other forums?
                      1. NF68
                        NF68 30 January 2018 21: 07
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Quote: NF68
                        indefatigable figure under the name Vadim Petrov

                        Colleague, are you sure that this is the right place to discuss users of other forums?


                        It's not the same for everybody. And you, in turn, are personally sure that here is the right place to mention who and what carries?
            2. EvilLion
              EvilLion 30 March 2018 09: 50
              0
              In terms of materiel, the crews, however, parachuted into their territory. However, the 1733 aircraft for a multi-month operation can hardly be called super-heavy losses.
          2. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 28 January 2018 19: 45
            +5
            . "And in 1940, Hitler simply imitated raids on Britain," /////

            Imitation with the loss of 1/3 of the bombers and 1/4 of the Luftwaffe fighters. smile
        2. sd68
          sd68 28 January 2018 12: 24
          +3
          Until 1941, the USSR was persuading strictly in the opposite, yelling that the British aggressors should stop the war unleashed by them against the Nazis, and especially the USSR was furious that the Allies declared that they would fight not against Germany, but against fascism.
          But since the end of June 1941, the USSR decided that England should not spare its forces and people to fight against the Nazis.
          1. Operator
            Operator 28 January 2018 12: 39
            +3
            By your logic, the British Empire (United Kingdom, India, Canada, Australia, South Africa) until 1944 "fought" with fascism, sparing their strength and people - such as let the silver-footed Russians fight, and I will dance on the bones of all those who fought.

            As a result, BI shamed and fell apart to the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
            1. sd68
              sd68 28 January 2018 14: 55
              +2
              Actually, everyone fought like that, except for the USSR, no one set out to put as many people as possible.
              About the shame of BI and the reasons for its collapse are your fantasies.
              1. Operator
                Operator 29 January 2018 08: 31
                0
                BI began to tear the Americans back during WWII - to carry out subversive work in India and Saudi Arabia, squeezing British capital from these countries. And this is correct - with an almost unlimited mobilization resource in the form of Indians, Canadians and Australians, the British asked the Americans to fight for themselves (purely specifically shameful action).

                After WWII, the USSR joined in tearing up the BI (the struggle against colonialism, the third world and all that jazz).

                As a result, the BI currently has one stub left on the British Isles, and even that one is in danger of collapse from Scotland and Northern Ireland.
                1. EvilLion
                  EvilLion 30 March 2018 09: 59
                  +1
                  You would at least be crazy about the mob. resources did not write. There was no special military production in India, it had to be created and armed by the locals, which had not disappeared after WWII, and India had to be given independence, another war with the 2 million army of Indians, which they themselves created in case of invasion Japanese, the Britons would not have suffered. And indeed, in the colonial empire, mostly full-fledged citizens of the metropolis fight, any Aborigines by definition are inferior to them in preparation and are frankly unreliable.

                  As for Australia, it now has a population of EMNIP 16 million. New Zealand 4 million, Canada, EMNIP 30. Then there was less. This does not take into account the need to bring these people to Europe, and there was enough work against the Japanese to anzakz to drag them to the metropolis.
              2. EvilLion
                EvilLion 30 March 2018 09: 52
                +1
                The USSR did not set such a goal either, it is only among you Sumerians with the logic of the problem.
            2. moroz656
              moroz656 28 January 2018 19: 43
              0
              Absolutely, the British never fight with their own hands. A nation that does not know the word is a shame, there is a word convenient.
              Quote: Operator
              By your logic, the British Empire (United Kingdom, India, Canada, Australia, South Africa) until 1944 "fought" with fascism, sparing their strength and people - such as let the silver-footed Russians fight, and I will dance on the bones of all those who fought.

              As a result, BI shamed and fell apart to the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
          2. volodimer
            volodimer 28 January 2018 12: 53
            0
            You are raving. fool
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 28 January 2018 13: 04
              +3
              Quote: Operator
              until 1944 "fought" with fascism, sparing their strength and people

              Britain could not do anything special. Actions in Africa are limited by logistics, it’s impossible to cross the Channel, it is impossible to send an army to the Eastern Front. Yes, and so on. To Stalin, the English army in the USSR was no better than the Wehrmacht.

              Quote: Operator
              As a result, BI shamed and fell apart to the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

              Then she fed the FDR. The Atlantic Charter buried colonial empires.
              1. sd68
                sd68 28 January 2018 15: 09
                +4
                It seems to explain that the Allies could not land in Europe for the same reason as Hitler in England at one time, it makes no sense.
                There is a category of people who are sure that exactly at that moment when the USSR from Hitler’s ally turned into his opponent, the whole world should have rushed to save the USSR, regardless of millions of losses.
                It doesn’t occur to them that until recently the USSR demanded that the Allies stop the comrade Molotov’s speech at an extraordinary congress in 1939 to help them, and helped to sink the British ships with Comet wiring.
                And the Atlantic Charter is a secret for them with seven seals, for how then to write that the Allies pursued their own selfish interests, and only the USSR fought against fascism and Japan out of pure idealism.
                The 21st century is in the yard, and it’s as if people were removed from the pages of the Journal of the Political Propaganda in 1973
                1. Okolotochny
                  Okolotochny 3 February 2018 18: 02
                  +5
                  Did Vyatrovich completely take down the roof? This is when the USSR signed an allied treaty with Hitler? There was a non-aggression pact. But the association agreement with the EU draws on slaveholding, such Europeans concluded with the natives.
          3. Serg koma
            Serg koma 31 January 2018 06: 28
            +2
            Quote: sd68
            Until 1941, the USSR was persuading strictly in the opposite, yelling that the British aggressors should stop the war unleashed by them against the Nazis, and especially the USSR was furious that the Allies declared that they would fight not against Germany, but against fascism.

            This WHO was going to fight against fascism? Have you completely lost your brain on the Maidan, or is Goebbels propaganda based on the independent foundation of your worldview and "your" history?

            July 15, 1933. Pact of Four (Italy, Germany, England, France).
            January 26, 1934. Pilsudski-Hitler Pact (Germany, Poland).
            June 18, 1935. Anglo-German Maritime Agreement.
            November 25, 1936. Anti-Mirkern Pact (Germany, Japan).
            September 1938, "the second Sudeten crisis."
            The Soviet government responds to a request by the President of Czechoslovakia, Benes, that he is ready to fulfill the conditions of the Prague Treaty. The Soviet Union offered its assistance to Czechoslovakia in case of war with Germany, even if, contrary to the pact, France did not.
            Poland in response stated that it would declare war on the USSR if the Red Army sent troops to help Czechoslovakia through Poland.
            England and France blocked Soviet proposals for discussing the problem of collective support for Czechoslovakia through the League of Nations.
            October 2, 1938. Operation Zaluzhye. Poland occupies Tesin Silesia (Tesen-Frishtat-Bohumin district) and some settlements on the territory of modern Slovakia.
            1939 year. German non-aggression agreement on the Baltic countries.

            The Munich Agreement of 1938 (in Soviet historiography, usually the Munich Agreement) - an agreement drawn up in Munich 29 September 1938 years and signed on September 30 of that year by British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain, French Prime Minister Eduard Daladier, German Chancellor Adolf Hitler and Italian Prime Minister Benito Mussolini. The agreement concerned the transfer by Czechoslovakia of Germany to the Sudetenland. The next day between Mutual non-aggression declaration signed by Great Britain and Germany.

            On October 13, 1938, negotiations were held between the French ambassador in Berlin, Francois-Ponsay, and State Secretary of the German Foreign Ministry Weizsacker on the possibility of concluding financial agreements, consultation agreements and a non-aggression pact between Germany and France. On October 18, 1938, François-Ponsay, in an interview with Hitler, put forward a number of proposals that, in his opinion, could serve as the basis for an agreement between the two countries. In early December 1938, Ribbentrop was invited to Paris. During his visit On December 6, 1938, the Franco-German Declaration was signed.
    2. iouris
      iouris 30 January 2018 19: 09
      +1
      Quote: Vard
      Those planes that bombed England ... They did not bomb the USSR ...

      Those who were not needed in the USSR bombed England.
      1. EvilLion
        EvilLion 30 March 2018 10: 01
        0
        Did the Germans have something unnecessary? Especially in 1944? Even old trash can be used at least at night. On fuel extremes, pour less fuel and reduce the load, to improve the LTX and bomb the rear areas.
    3. yehat
      yehat 31 January 2018 13: 52
      0
      most of the planes that bombed England would very quickly be lost in the USSR.
      More importantly, more than a few trained pilots died, which in the 41st the Germans no longer had.
      and in the early days of the war, the Wehrmacht troops received very little help from aviation.
  2. Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya 28 January 2018 06: 21
    +7
    Well, at least so, the “allies” helped us, distracting the German bombers. We had no fighters with locators, and the Germans could relatively safely bomb Soviet cities, the same Leningrad for example.
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 30 March 2018 10: 03
      0
      Moscow was bombed so safely and “successfully” that they did not achieve anything in this regard even in 41. We also had stationary locators; fighter jets can be aimed at them, and they’ll notice every large formation of bombers.
  3. Fedorov
    Fedorov 28 January 2018 06: 50
    +4
    Yeah .. Alienating from fascism and the Jews. Hitler could stop, like Napoleon, the Swedish Carl, on the border of the Russian Empire - the USSR. What did they miss? Some kind of magnet pulls something, in the Urals Our ancestors left?
    Although they received letters, such as from Shambhala. And they said there - Don’t go to Russia, nobody listened. Letters to Roosevelt, for example, in the Library of Congress. And there, in plain text - Russia has a future, you need to help, otherwise you will also have a khan. Roosevelt heard.
    Well, Schicklgruber completely stupefied by the 44th, then they open the door with bayonets, and he is trying to bring England to his knees. Ram. And his jaw with teeth is kept in Moscow.
    1. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya 28 January 2018 07: 08
      +5
      In the place of Hitler, I would have thrown all my strength into the capture of Britain, it was quite feasible. Then it was necessary to go to the Middle East and India to join with the Japanese. And then conquer Africa, while the Japanese, meanwhile, would conquer Australia and New Zealand. And that’s all, mattresses could only sit out in their two Americas, and pray to God that the combined Japanese and German fleets would not become stronger than the American fleet.
      1. karish
        karish 28 January 2018 07: 12
        12
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        In Hitler's place, I would have thrown all my strength into the capture of Britain, it was quite feasible

        In general, I think that in the place of Hitler, you should have shot yourself.
        And as for Britain, he could have captured it, his gut was thin.

        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        Then it was necessary to go to the Middle East and India to join with the Japanese. And then conquer Africa, while the Japanese, meanwhile, would conquer Australia and New Zealand.

        Oh well.
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        And that’s all, mattresses would only have to sit out in their two Americas, and pray to God that the combined Japanese and German fleets would not become stronger than the American fleet.

        And what would the USSR have to do? When would Hitler and the Yapi surround him on all sides?
        Pray for the genius of Stalin? Or go to the Nazis as allies?
        1. Same lech
          Same lech 28 January 2018 07: 28
          +5
          And as for Britain, he could have captured it, his gut was thin.


          It’s not true ... watch the British film The Battle of Britain ... there the British themselves recognized that only a miracle could save them and this miracle was the USSR to which Hitler threw all his strength ...
          so Britain must say thanks to STALIN for diverting all the attention of the Wehrmacht to GERMANY ...
          if it weren’t for that, Britain would be doomed in this period of time ... Britain simply did not have the resources for a long war.
          1. Bask
            Bask 28 January 2018 13: 13
            +4
            Judging by the films is not a thankful task. Many historians claim that if Hitler had not given the order to bomb the cities, and the Luftwaffe continued to “iron” British airfields, England would not have resisted. But the Germans bombed only airfields in the south-west and south of England. the Germans didn’t achieve superiority in the air. That is, if the Germans landed, the RAF could act from other parts of the country. There were need for ground troops to seize the territory and advance. In my history of wars, there is no such thing that the war was won aviation.
            And Stalin had nothing to do with it. The battle for Britain ended in October 40, and the USSR did not want to get involved in the war at that time. Isaev recently put forward the reason for the German attack on the Soviet Union. After the British were “sealed” on their island, the Germans didn’t it made no sense to incur huge losses landing on the island. All Europe under the Germans and only one Soviet Union is a potential ally of the British. Agree to logically roll this ally and consider the war won.
            1. Same lech
              Same lech 28 January 2018 17: 23
              +1
              and only one Soviet Union is a potential ally of the British.
              Yeah, ally, how ... before that there was a Munich agreement ... non-aggression pact ... here everyone was for himself.
              The British in the allies of the Communists did not want to have ... for which they paid.
              1. Bask
                Bask 28 January 2018 18: 21
                +4
                But this did not prevent the Soviet leadership in August 39th from proposing a joint security treaty to the British and French. And after the German attack, the British first extended a helping hand. No need to hang up labels. In foreign policy, everyone is for himself. Above, I wrote that the USSR he didn’t run to the aid of the British, but calmly concluded a pact not to attack the Germans. At that moment everyone was friends with the Nazis.
            2. Alf
              Alf 28 January 2018 20: 36
              +2
              Quote: Bask
              .Isaev recently put forward the reason for the German attack on the Soviet Union. After the British were "sealed" on their island, the Germans made no sense to incur huge losses landing on the island

              The absolute stupidity of Isaev. To have an “unsinkable bridgehead” close by and transfer all troops to the other end of Europe ... Even then, Hitler called the United States a non-belligerent ally of Britain, which means he understood that the prefix “not” could fall off at any moment. And to get an unsinkable bridgehead pumped up by troops and, moreover, the absence of German troops in Europe, is his greatest nonsense.
              1. Bask
                Bask 28 January 2018 22: 18
                +1
                And what's the stupid thing? The United States certainly supported the British, but were not going to enter the war. Hitler did not intend to fight with the USSR for a long time, hoping to finish everything by winter. In the First World Prefix, "did not" fall off in the 18th. Judging by polls of ordinary Americans, they didn’t need a war in Europe even if the Japanese didn’t start Pearl Harbor, it’s not known how much the Americans thought. And the Germans dealt with this nonsense for four years. The Englishmen were already incapable of major operations without support in the 41st The USA and I think Hitler hoped to quickly eliminate the Soviet Union. ak-that we should not be so absolutely sure of their pravote.Vy fact can not at one hundred percent, credible evidence base to prove what I was thinking Gitler.Vse what you say, it's just your speculation, and I think the hypothesis Isayev has the right to life.
                1. Shteffan
                  Shteffan 29 January 2018 00: 40
                  +1
                  Quote: Bask
                  .Isaev recently put forward the reason for the German attack on the Soviet Union. After the British “sealed” the Germans on their island, there was no sense in incurring huge losses landing on the island ====== The reason for the German attack on the USSR was set forth in the claims made before the start of the fighting action.http: //senseisekai.livejournal.com/48312
                  50.html
                  1. Bask
                    Bask 29 January 2018 08: 28
                    0
                    The reason that is not always voiced is true.
                    1. Shteffan
                      Shteffan 29 January 2018 10: 41
                      +1
                      This time she was truthful. The truth is confirmed by the leaders of the USSR themselves.
                      1. Bask
                        Bask 29 January 2018 13: 10
                        0
                        Sorry, of course, but it would have been a little strange if the Germans had declared some illusive prospects for Britain and the USSR to join the cause of the attack. Moreover, Isaev does not state his hypothesis as the main cause of the attack, but considers it to be one of those that prompted Hitler start a war on two fronts.
                2. Alf
                  Alf 29 January 2018 22: 17
                  0
                  Quote: Bask
                  . Judging by the polls of ordinary Americans, they did not need a war in Europe for nothing.

                  And when it was in the United States that the opinion of ordinary Americans worried those in power?
                  Quote: Bask
                  After all, you cannot prove what Hitler was thinking with one hundred percent, reliable evidence base.

                  Right, I can’t.
                  Quote: Bask
                  I think Isaev’s hypothesis has the right to life.

                  But then it is also written with a pitchfork on the water.
                  Quote: Bask
                  Hitler did not intend to fight the USSR for a long time, hoping to finish everything by winter.

                  So what did not finish? Rather, finished, but blitzkrieg. Then the WAR began.
                  1. Bask
                    Bask 29 January 2018 23: 28
                    0
                    I didn’t care, but these ordinary Americans needed to be forced to fight. The Japanese attacked and did not need to be explained, but the Germans did not attack and how to explain to the soldiers how frightened they were to die. And I did not say that Isaev put forward the only true version of the reason for the attack , but as one of them, it fits perfectly into the situation. There are many reasons for the failure of the blitzkrieg. People write entire articles. In one comment you can’t reveal all the reasons.
                    1. Alf
                      Alf 29 January 2018 23: 33
                      0
                      Quote: Bask
                      . In one comment you will not reveal all the reasons.

                      I agree.
                3. iouris
                  iouris 30 January 2018 19: 15
                  0
                  Quote: Bask
                  The United States certainly supported the British, but were not going to enter the war.

                  Just the opposite. The United States organized both wars in order to earn money and was going to enter the war, but only after the opponents weakened each other enough and did many, many debts.
          2. Lex.
            Lex. 28 January 2018 20: 29
            0
            Yes, it’s for sure, but also the British themselves told Hitler where the “easy victory”
        2. Kot_Kuzya
          Kot_Kuzya 28 January 2018 07: 46
          +4
          Why should I attack the USSR? I fantasize what I would do if I were in Hitler’s body in the summer of 1940. And of course, I would immediately stop infringing people because of the “wrong” nationality. I do not like the fact that now the United States is the only hegemon and therefore behaves boorishly and bombes anyone it wants, and imposes sanctions on anyone it wants. And so in my alternative, I would give Stalin Iran, so that the USSR had access to the Indian Ocean, and then there would be 4 superpowers in the world: the USSR, Germany, Japan and the USA. And there would be a multipolar world.
          I don’t understand Hitler, why did I have to shout to the USSR, if Africa was at hand? If he really needed a "living space", then here it is - Africa, poorly populated, with rich resources and almost nothing to defend at all!
          1. smart ass
            smart ass 28 January 2018 09: 57
            +3
            By agreement of the countries of the axis of Africa, Italy was taken over. The Italians and began its capture and obos ....
            1. Kot_Kuzya
              Kot_Kuzya 28 January 2018 10: 30
              +1
              I would give Ethiopia pasta, let them flounder. And I would take everything else to myself. And the Duce could not do anything.
              1. smart ass
                smart ass 28 January 2018 12: 51
                +2
                So, pasta began to capture Africa merrily merged, if not for comrade rommel chasing a monty with a towel. If the Rommel was driven in time with reinforcements, plus a couple of tank divisions were given, the British would have been doomed
          2. Train
            Train 28 January 2018 10: 49
            +3
            Because by June 41 we had already pulled over 180 divisions to the borders .. Why? The rhetorical question was stolen with stockpiles of weapons, ammunition, uniforms and all that sort of thing. I will not even reflect on the topic: Why? But they were pulled there and after the attack they were safely destroyed ...
          3. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 28 January 2018 19: 53
            +4
            "almost nothing and no one defends" ////

            None but the British fleet ... While German is locked in the North Sea.
            Hitler’s forces are based on tanks. But tanks move only on dry land. Where to go? - all of land Europe is captured. Only the USSR remained.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 28 January 2018 20: 41
              +3
              Quote: voyaka uh
              But tanks move only on dry land. Where to go?

              Well-balanced people claim that the right decision was Suez and BV. At least in 40-41, instead of the Balkans.
              1. voyaka uh
                voyaka uh 29 January 2018 14: 37
                +1
                That's the trouble (and for the whole world - happiness) that the Fuhrer was not a balanced person.
                And it is unclear what balanced Stalin was counting on, concluding a pact with a person of a psychopathic warehouse. It was impossible to press on Hitler and it was impossible to make fun of him. Hence, the breakdown is the “explosion” of the 1940 Berlin talks.
                Maybe there would be Suez if Stalin went to the Berlin talks himself, and did not send the dull Molotov. And the Second World War would be postponed for two years ...
                1. Town Hall
                  Town Hall 29 January 2018 20: 46
                  +3
                  Quote: voyaka uh
                  Maybe there would be Suez if Stalin went to the Berlin talks himself, and did not send the dull Molotov.




                  Do you think that the stupid Molotov pursued his personal international policy and at least stepped back from the directives of Stalin?


                  "And nit is unclear what balanced Stalin was counting on, concluding a pact with a man of a psychopathic warehouse. It was impossible to press on Hitler and it was impossible to make fun of him. Hence, the breakdown is the “explosion” of the 1940 Berlin talks"

                  Comrade Stalin was known as a genius only in his internal borders, where, against the background of members of the Politburo, who had almost three classes of church parish, his 3 classes of theological seminary looked impressive, and his companions were more competent in international affairs. continuous failures
                  1. voyaka uh
                    voyaka uh 30 January 2018 11: 34
                    +1
                    "and at least a step behind the directives of Stalin?" ////

                    Here it turned out to be a way of Filing directives. Stalin gave instructions
                    Molotov TO SENSE Hitler's position on the "wishes" of the USSR:
                    get Bulgaria and the Turkish Straits. And Molotov blurted out: “we want it that way !,”
                    and you, like, losers ... you can't even deal with Britain yourself. "
                    I joked on this subject. (there are minutes of his conversations with Ribbentrop).
                    Reported to the nervous Fuhrer. He exploded: "ah they want !, ah we are with England
                    if you didn’t manage ... - get "And I rushed to the General Staff:" the map of Barbarossa - to the operating table. "And this was the point of no return.
                    When Stalin realized that a catastrophe had occurred, he gave Molotov a shot on the head and wrote a letter to Hitler: "they say everything is misunderstood, forget ... we are like friends"
                    But it was too late. When Hitler made a decision about another blitzkig adventure, there was no turning back.
                    1. iouris
                      iouris 31 January 2018 15: 42
                      0
                      Your version is more like a joke. Financial circles are planning serious politics, and war is just a continuation of politics. The victory over the USSR gave a chance (as it seemed to them) not to lose the war after the landing of US troops in Europe. Hitler was given a term until 1944. Everything went according to plan.
                    2. Town Hall
                      Town Hall 31 January 2018 16: 22
                      +1
                      Quote: voyaka uh
                      And Molotov blurted out: “we want it that way !,”
                      and you, like, losers ... you can’t even deal with Britain yourself


                      can. "
                    3. Town Hall
                      Town Hall 31 January 2018 16: 26
                      +1
                      Quote: voyaka uh
                      Molotov blurted out: “we want so!”
                      and you, like, losers ... you can't even deal with Britain yourself. "
                      Joked n




                      everything is a little more complicated ...


                      http://livehistory.su/index.php/Визит_Молотова_в_
                      Berlin_November 12-14_1940_year
                2. Alf
                  Alf 29 January 2018 22: 21
                  0
                  Quote: voyaka uh
                  And it is unclear what balanced Stalin was counting on, concluding a pact with a person of a psychopathic warehouse.

                  That will succeed in shoving Hans to the west.
                  Quote: voyaka uh
                  and it was impossible to joke with him.

                  And who was joking with him?
                  1. Town Hall
                    Town Hall 29 January 2018 22: 27
                    +1
                    Quote: Alf
                    Quote: voyaka uh
                    And it is unclear what balanced Stalin was counting on, concluding a pact with a person of a psychopathic warehouse.
                    What will succeed in shoving Hans to the west




                    But to strain up a little more and think about what will happen after Hans finishes the walk to the West, the seminary's horizons were no longer enough
                    1. Alf
                      Alf 29 January 2018 22: 31
                      0
                      Quote: Town Hall
                      Quote: Alf
                      Quote: voyaka uh
                      And it is unclear what balanced Stalin was counting on, concluding a pact with a person of a psychopathic warehouse.
                      What will succeed in shoving Hans to the west

                      But to strain up a little more and think about what will happen after Hans finishes the walk to the West, the seminary's horizons were no longer enough

                      And why did the Soviet military industry switch to a 12-hour working day and a 7-day working week?
                      I believe that the "seminarian", as you call him, was smarter.
                      1. Town Hall
                        Town Hall 29 January 2018 22: 35
                        +1
                        Quote: Alf
                        And why did the Soviet military industry switch to a 12-hour working day and a 7-day working week?
                        I believe that the "seminarian", as you call him, was smarter.




                        And it helped him a lot? ... if he didn’t give the green light to Hitler in Poland, you could do without these labor feats.
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 30 January 2018 07: 01
                        0
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        And it helped him a lot? ... he did not give the green light to Hitler in Poland

                        There is an opinion that the "seminarian" did exactly the same thing as Chamberlain and Deladier - he won time for mobilization (for one he hurted in Eastern Europe). And, like them, he underestimated the partner’s recklessness.
                  2. voyaka uh
                    voyaka uh 30 January 2018 11: 38
                    0
                    "And who was joking with him?" ///

                    Comrade Molotov, not from a great mind and by the lack of
                    diplomatic experience. Not over him personally, but over
                    Hitler’s inability to defeat Britain.
              2. smart ass
                smart ass 29 January 2018 21: 15
                0
                What kind of Suez could be with a living royal fleet? Only the superiority in the air could compensate for the presence of the English fleet, and its Germans did not
                1. Alf
                  Alf 29 January 2018 22: 22
                  0
                  Quote: Clever man
                  What kind of Suez could be with a living royal fleet? Only the superiority in the air could compensate for the presence of the English fleet, and its Germans did not

                  Remember Crete. There, German aviation showed itself so that the British fleet went to Gibraltar.
              3. iouris
                iouris 30 January 2018 19: 20
                0
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                ... the right decision was Suez and BV. At least in 40-41, instead of the Balkans.

                Everyone had to wage the war as planned. Nobody wanted to get involved in the war with the USA. The United States maintained an isolationist policy until Japan bombed old unnecessary but very large battleships.
            2. NF68
              NF68 29 January 2018 15: 58
              0
              Quote: voyaka uh
              None but the British fleet ... While German is locked in the North Sea.


              There is one name in comparison with the English Navy.
          4. Alf
            Alf 28 January 2018 20: 39
            +3
            Quote: Kot_Kuzya
            And of course, I would immediately stop infringing people because of the “wrong” nationality.

            Actually, that was the main idea of ​​Nazism.
            Quote: Kot_Kuzya
            I don’t understand Hitler, why did I have to shout to the USSR, if Africa was at hand?

            Africa still had to be reached.
      2. Fedorov
        Fedorov 28 January 2018 07: 30
        +4
        We can build a blockbuster here now - if only, if only.
        But actually Corporal Hitler was dumb, I am silent about Musolini. Declare war on America, just that they themselves allowed to hammer on Horbor? Richard Sorge probably rolls in his grave, if not reborn.
        1. sd68
          sd68 28 January 2018 12: 28
          +2
          Hitler had no choice from the moment England refused to make peace with him.
          The capture of England failed, the German army could not be demobilized, and she could not fight with England, she had to find a war to enter.
          And the US declared war, so the US almost openly helped England under the guise of neutrality
      3. andrewkor
        andrewkor 28 January 2018 08: 52
        +1
        In the Alternative, all this is painted in a variety of options, quite entertainingly. Personally, I like the "Sea Wolf" by Vlad Savin.
        1. Kot_Kuzya
          Kot_Kuzya 28 January 2018 08: 54
          +1
          There is also the book "Comrade Hitler", where the Russian gets into Hitler’s body and drenches the brazen ones like an Acetic warmer laughing
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 28 January 2018 10: 42
            +3
            Quote: Kot_Kuzya
            There’s another book, Comrade Hitler,

            A colleague, if you are really interested in altistory, that is, special sites, fai or alternathistory.com, for example. The World War II alternatives are like shit after a bath.
            And stories about invader popadants, like yours, are a bummer.
            1. Kot_Kuzya
              Kot_Kuzya 28 January 2018 11: 11
              +1
              You can't cut a dream ... Or have you never dreamed?
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 28 January 2018 11: 23
                +2
                Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                You can't cut a dream ... Or have you never dreamed?

                Well why. I go there from time to time, and some of the regular authors of the ax are there even as moderators.
                But, you see, normal altistory has little to do with “falling into Hitler’s body”. But it requires a very serious knowledge of the real history of its period.
              2. AUL
                AUL 28 January 2018 12: 38
                +1
                IMHO, the biggest stupidity of a corporal is that he climbed into the USSR. If he squinted with us, they would conquer the world without any problems. The industrial and scientific-engineering potential of Germany, plus our natural and human reserves (and even our industry, tightened with the help of the same Germany) - who would resist? Even without the help of Italy and Japan! But alas ... An alternative story! It's a pity...
                1. saigon
                  saigon 28 January 2018 15: 06
                  +2
                  Dear, do not transfer our rank system to the Germans.
                  The Fritz corporal is still the second rank after the senior shooter, and there is also the chief and headquarters of the corporal.
                  And you can become a corporal only after 4 years of service or for services on the battlefield.
                  So the corporal in the German army is not our corporal
      4. yehat
        yehat 31 January 2018 13: 58
        0
        you do not understand the economy of that period.
        the Germans needed to keep the British out of the dunkirk - then the landing would be quite real. plus, after the capture of Britain, it was necessary to take up control in the Mediterranean Sea, the remnants of the British Empire and France, so that the opponents had no outposts and only then they could take up expansion without breaking contacts with the USSR.
        And in the 41st, Hitler had too many weights hanging on his feet - England, Gibraltar, Malta, Norway, Africa, US participation.
  4. tchoni
    tchoni 28 January 2018 07: 26
    +3
    Or maybe this article should be thrust into the "history" section? In the "weapons" section, it seems like they write more about devices ..
    1. Cat
      Cat 28 January 2018 09: 07
      +6
      Quote: tchoni
      Or maybe this article should be thrust into the "history" section? In the "weapons" section, it seems like they write more about devices ..

      That's right, so we will finish the article on our own!

      The performance characteristics of Not 177A-1 / R1
      Type: five-seater heavy bomber.
      Engines: two Daimler-Benz DB 606 - 24-cylinder, liquid-cooled, take-off power of 2700 liters. with. and 2360 liters. with. at an altitude of 5800 m.
      Armament: one 7,9 mm MG 81 machine gun with 2000 rounds in the nose of the fuselage, one 20 mm MC FF gun with 300 shells in the nose of the lower gondola, two MG 81 with 2000 rounds in the tail of the gondola, one 13 mm MG machine gun 131 with 750 rounds in the remotely controlled upper turret and one MG 131 in the rear with 1500 rounds.
      Short-range bomb load in flight - 48x50 kg, 12x250 kg, 6x500 kg, 4x1000 kg of HE bombs, 6x500 kg or 6x1000 kg of armor-piercing bombs, two 1000 kg and two 1800 kg bombs, two LMA mines 111 and two 1800-kg bombs.
      The bomb load in flight at medium distances is 32x50 kg, 8x250 kg, 4x500 kg or 4x1000 kg bombs.
      Bomb load in flight over long distances - 16x50 kg, 4x250 kg, two 500 kg or two 1000 kg bombs.
      Maximum speed: 510 km / h at an altitude of 5800 m
      Cruising speed: 430 km / h at an altitude of 5500 m.
      Flight range: with a maximum load - 1200 km (at 8900 liters of fuel), 3200 km (at 10400 liters), 5570 km (at 12800 liters).
      Ceiling: 7000 m.
      Weight: empty - 16100 kg, take-off - 30000 kg.
      1. Train
        Train 28 January 2018 10: 52
        +1
        Wow, I didn’t know what they were. By the way, weren’t these the engines trying to put some secret BF with such power? -24 boiler is damn serious !!!
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 28 January 2018 11: 05
          +2
          Quote: Zug
          24 boilers is damn serious !!!

          Nothing interesting. Two ordinary V12 operating on one output shaft. Unsuccessful solution in terms of reliability and combat survivability.
          The working 24-pot engine, EMNIP, was the only one in WWII, the Napier Saber. At the end of the war, a 28-cylinder Pratt & Whitney R-4360 Wasp Major appeared, but it began to fly normally only after the war (Convair B-36 Peacemaker, Boeing B-50 Superfortress, transport aircraft)
          1. Train
            Train 28 January 2018 11: 12
            +1
            well ... Shvetsov is also m-63? perhaps doubled and it turned out m-82-by the way, too, a controversial decision ...
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 28 January 2018 11: 41
              +4
              Quote: Zug
              Shvetsov also m-63? I doubled and got m-82

              Not at all the same. ASH-82 is a double radial seven on one crankshaft, the Soviet Twin Cyclone. This was then done by everyone.
              DB 606 is two DB 601s standing side by side (side by side), with their individual crankshafts, simply driving one output shaft with a propeller through the gears. The ideological analogue is Sherman's double diesel.
              1. Train
                Train 28 January 2018 11: 44
                +3
                aaaa-now it’s understandable, thanks-about the cyclones I know, as well as Spanish syuza. Shvetsov I know that I made a pair of 2 for 7 cylinders. M-82 and it turned out. Well, it was clear that the task was probably not so easy to glue ...
            2. Alf
              Alf 28 January 2018 20: 43
              0
              Quote: Zug
              well ... Shvetsov is also m-63? perhaps doubled and it turned out m-82-by the way, too, a controversial decision ...

              Only the M-82 worked, and the Germans had non-combat losses due to engines 177th more than shot down.
              1. yehat
                yehat 31 January 2018 14: 03
                0
                Germans had the main problem not in reliability, but in overheating.
                the layout solution was unsuccessful. On FV-190A, they struggled with a similar problem for 3 years until it became bearable.
                I've been Japanese on my rear interceptor shinden with a rear screw so I did not solve the problem of overheating.
                I repeat - the problems were not in the engines.
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 31 January 2018 20: 47
                  +1
                  Quote: yehat
                  I repeat - the problems were not in the engines

                  In fact, cooling is the main problem of powerful engines of those years.
          2. NF68
            NF68 28 January 2018 16: 33
            +2
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            The working 24-pot engine, EMNIP, was the only one in WWII, the Napier Saber. At the end of the war, a 28-cylinder Pratt & Whitney R-4360 Wasp Major appeared, but it began to fly normally only after the war (Convair B-36 Peacemaker, Boeing B-50 Superfortress, transport aircraft)


            Such working 24's cylinder star engines were 2. At the end of the 1942, Junkers completed the development, bench and flight tests of the mid-height version of the Jumo-222 A / B-3 with a service life of 30 hours versus 10 watches at Napier Saber. Then followed the high-rise Jumo-222 E / F with the 2-x supercharger Jumo-222 and the Turbo Jumo-222 with a turbocharger driven by the exhaust gases of the engine:

            The first modification of the 1941 of the year is Jumo-222 A / B-1 (135 mm * 135 mm), working volume 46,4 l., 2000 hp at 3200 rpm, a single-stage two-speed supercharger, a zero series is built. The engine is tested on a test bench and in flight.

            Modification created in the 1942 year Jumo-222 A / B-2 (140 mm * 135 mm), working volume 49,88 l. Larger Bore Valves, 2500 HP at 2900 rpm, a zero series was built. The engine is tested on a test bench and in flight.

            The Jumo-222 A / B-3 modification is similar to the A / B-2 series, but received a more powerful supercharger. Using the MW-50 system, the maximum take-off power of the engine was increased to 2900 hp. The engine had an estimated height of 6 km (tests were carried out at the bench and in flight). Serial production of this engine was planned, but later, closer to the time when it was planned to organize mass production, due to the lack of necessary resources, this engine was no longer possible to produce.

            Jumo-222 C / D 1943 year. (145 mm × 140 mm), displacement 55,5 l, power 3000 hp at 3100 rpm Estimated engine altitude 6 km. By the end of the war, several engines were in the assembly stage.

            Jumo-222 E / F 1944 year. (140 mm × 135 mm), working volume 49,88 l. The engine was a Jumo-222 A / B-3 variant with a two-stage 3 high-speed high-pressure supercharger and a charge air cooler. Maximum engine power reached 2500 hp Using the MW-50 system, power was increased to 2900 hp. Using the GM-1 system increased engine power at altitudes above the calculated by approximately 500 hp. From the 10 manufactured engines of the experimental batch of this variant, 6 were tested on the stand and in flight.

            Jumo-222 Turbo (140mm × 135 mm). 49,88 l displacement, turbocharger driven by exhaust gases (ATL) Estimated altitude 12,3 km. Ground Level Power 2400 HP 22 successful bench tests have been carried out.

            Jumo-222 G / 225 - 36 cylinder version of the Jumo-222 engine (140 mm × 135 mm). Displacement 69,57 l Power 3500 HP at 3000 rpm It was planned to increase power by increasing engine speed and installing a turbocharger driven by exhaust gases (ATL). The development of the project was suspended due to the inability to implement its production.

            Due to the deteriorating situation in Germany, further development of Jumo-222 engines in the 1944 year went quite slowly. Flight tests were carried out on 11 various aircraft with a total flight time of 800 hours. Of all the above modifications, the Jumo-222 A / B-3 and E / F modifications most corresponded to the requirements for aircraft engines necessary for warfare in the second half of WWII. Due to the powerful allied air raids on the aircraft plant in the city of Dessau in April 1944, production was transferred to plants in the cities of Oberrussel and Frankfurt on Main. In the middle of 1944, Jumo-222 engine technology documentation was sold to Japan.

            Several engines were captured by the Americans and the British and subjected them to comprehensive tests. According to Junkers, the total number of JNUMX-289 engines of all modifications was produced.

            http://alternathistory.com/aviatsionnyi-dvigatel-
            junkers-jumo-222?form_build_id=form-1da3fcd0c224c
            99b01036eea5562817b & form_id = comment_controls &
            amp; mode = 2 & order = 2 & comments_per_page = 250
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 28 January 2018 18: 14
              +2
              Quote: NF68
              Such working 24's cylinder star engines were 2. At the end of the 1942 year, Junkers completed the development, bench and flight tests of the mid-height version of the Jumo-222

              Colleague, thanks for the story, but you did not formulate it successfully. Firstly, Saber was not a star, it is an H-sampler. Secondly, as a rule, they call a "star" a radial engine, and Yumo-222 - (six)in-line multibank. Similarly, again, to the Sherman M4A4 engine.
              And thirdly, by "worker" I meant "put on production aircraft." Yumo-222 stood only on prototypes, NYA.

              PS. You shouldn’t put next to Yumo’s operating time at the stand and Saber’s operating time in the series when he had problems with production. Saber worked without question for 100 hours at the booth.
              1. NF68
                NF68 28 January 2018 18: 28
                0
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                Quote: NF68
                Such working 24's cylinder star engines were 2. At the end of the 1942 year, Junkers completed the development, bench and flight tests of the mid-height version of the Jumo-222

                Colleague, thanks for the story, but you did not formulate it successfully. Firstly, Saber was not a star, it is an H-sampler. Secondly, as a rule, they call a "star" a radial engine, and Yumo-222 - (six)in-line multibank.
                And thirdly, by "worker" I meant "put on production aircraft." Yumo-222 stood only on prototypes, NYA.

                Jumo-222 also had a cylinder arrangement like air vents:



                PS. You shouldn’t put together Jumo’s time at the stand and Saber’s time in the series when he had problems with production. At the booth Saber 100 hours worked without question.


                On airplanes, Saber in the first half of WWII had a motor resource of about 10 hours, which did not allow the normal use of airplanes with this engine.
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 28 January 2018 19: 00
                  0
                  Quote: NF68
                  Jumo-222 also had a cylinder arrangement like air vents:

                  In this you are right, I saw such a picture. For airmen, however, the number of cylinders was usually odd.
                  Quote: NF68
                  On airplanes Saber in the first half of WWII had a motor resource of about 10 hours

                  I know. Yes, Nepier had problems in the series, as a result of which the parts of the gas distribution mechanism began to be bought from Bristol, when it became possible.
                  1. NF68
                    NF68 29 January 2018 16: 13
                    0
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    In this you are right, I saw such a picture. For airmen, however, the number of cylinders was usually odd.


                    The 28 mi cylinder engine - the BMW-803 A was water-cooled. 4 "stars" on 7 cylinders in each.





                    Apparently, the length of water-cooled engines did not play a special role in how many cylinders would be located in the same row. Jumo-222-6 cylinders, BMW-803 A-7, and 24's X-shaped DB-604 cylinders have only 4 cylinders in one row:

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdatgGOaJWQ
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 30 January 2018 07: 02
                      0
                      Quote: NF68
                      Apparently, the length of water-cooled engines did not play a special role how many cylinders will be located in one row

                      Yes. That's why they are in-line))) They have rows along and not across.
                      1. NF68
                        NF68 30 January 2018 17: 55
                        0
                        Yes. That's why they are in-line))) They have rows along and not across.


                        This is if we are talking about the most common V-12-shaped aircraft engines with liquid cooling, and if you look at the Jumo-222 or BMW-803 A from the side, they are star-shaped 4-x in front.
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 30 January 2018 20: 22
                        0
                        Quote: NF68
                        And on the side, and in front they are star-shaped 4's in-line.

                        As you wish.
                        I call stars only radial TWO. But this is not scripture.
      2. AUL
        AUL 28 January 2018 12: 54
        0
        Quote: Kotischa
        Engines: two Daimler-Benz DB 606 - 24-cylinder, liquid cooling,
        Liquid? Judging by the drawings, air!
        1. NF68
          NF68 28 January 2018 16: 36
          0
          Quote: AUL
          Liquid? Judging by the drawings, air!


          The Daimler-Benz DB 606 was a 2 water-cooled V-12 DB-601 engine running on a common gearbox.
        2. a.sirin
          a.sirin 28 January 2018 21: 15
          +1
          Radiato (radiators) for cooling liquid and oil in a monoblock with the engine itself. It was the same on the Yu-88. This made it possible to remove and install a single engine monoblock with min. length of cooling system communications.
          Slightly spoils the aerodynamics, but in operation undoubtedly. "+"
  5. fa2998
    fa2998 28 January 2018 11: 07
    +2
    Quote: Infinity
    I remember that the USSR was trying to persuade us from 1941 ... But it only began in June 1944, and thanks for that

    Such comments are very touching. I dare to allow that until 22.06.41 Nazi Germany is our favorite Kent! Tanks and cars stocking from the USSR fell! And England and the United States are somewhat separate from Europe on the islands and on the other mainland, they essentially did not prepare for ground operations. Yes, the Air Force and Navy were built, but when the war broke out in the states in Europe there was an EXPERIMENTAL TRAINING TANK BATALION. And they don’t they shouldn’t, especially since the Japanese attacked them at 41. There was no coalition then. Helped, and thanks for that! hi
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 28 January 2018 11: 16
      +1
      Colleague, you are not in the material.
    2. Wolf 1
      Wolf 1 28 January 2018 11: 31
      +3
      Comments like yours are no less touching. Before scattering gratitude to the Anglo-Saxons, it would be nice to recall that both the First and Second World War were caused mainly by the British attempt to win the economic confrontation with the Germans by any means.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 28 January 2018 12: 49
          +3
          Quote: sd68
          Yeah, Stalin and Hitler attacked Poland just because of this.


          A colleague, the Russian Criminal Code may not concern you, but the Supreme Court of the Russian Federation established that Hitler, a criminal-eating man, attacked Poland, and the valiant Red Army, under the wise leadership of Great Comrade Stalin, freed the workers of Western Belarus and Western Ukraine. Just coincidentally coincided in time.

          Insinuations on this subject are rehabilitation of Nazism and are punishable in accordance with Article 354.1 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation. So, keeping a conversation on this subject from Russia can be fraught.
        2. Wolf 1
          Wolf 1 28 January 2018 14: 55
          +1
          Wars do not start just like that, according to the mood .. Hitler was "nurtured", at first turning a blind eye to the militarization of Germany, to a direct violation of the Versailles Peace, and then feeding Czechoslovakia to him - and all this was done with one purpose - to send the German military to the USSR so that later finish off the weakened winner. In general, as usual, to heat the heat with the wrong hands. But miscalculated a bit, the beast attacked the breadwinners themselves. So I had to urgently "change shoes in the jump" 22.06.41/XNUMX/XNUMX.
    3. Cat
      Cat 28 January 2018 12: 50
      +4
      Quote: fa2998
      Quote: Infinity
      I remember that the USSR was trying to persuade us from 1941 ... But it only began in June 1944, and thanks for that

      Such comments are very touching. I dare to allow that until 22.06.41 Nazi Germany is our favorite Kent! Tanks and cars stocking from the USSR fell! And England and the United States are somewhat separate from Europe on the islands and on the other mainland, they essentially did not prepare for ground operations. Yes, the Air Force and Navy were built, but when the war broke out in the states in Europe there was an EXPERIMENTAL TRAINING TANK BATALION. And they don’t they shouldn’t, especially since the Japanese attacked them at 41. There was no coalition then. Helped, and thanks for that! hi

      Rezanul on ears
      Helped, and thanks for that.

      I suggest the esteemed to read Roosevelt’s speech "On the fire hose." A lot in your reasoning will "stupidly" fall into place.
      It wouldn’t hurt you to google how much gold the United States pumped from England, France and other countries. Britain already by 1940 was bankrupt.
      Essentially, Stanley’s reference to the name of World War II among the blue and white-collar workers in the United States is “Well-fed War.” Not annoying?
      Lend-lens was also an effective tool not only to help allied countries, but the “locomotive” of the US economy.
      I quote Stanley from memory "
      ........ it is surprising that the average American, having heard about the success of the Russians, complained that the day was not near by tanning when he would have to go to the office for his dismissal! "

      Feel the difference!
    4. NF68
      NF68 28 January 2018 16: 48
      +2
      Quote: fa2998
      And they don’t owe us anything, especially since the Japanese attacked them in 41.


      The ultimate should not. Just imagine, they did something that allowed Hitler Germany to lightly at first, and then to completely get rid of all the limitations of the Treaty of Versailles regarding the creation of full-fledged armed forces. The British were the first to suffer from this.
  6. andrey-ivanov
    andrey-ivanov 28 January 2018 11: 41
    +3
    Quote: Zug
    Wow, I didn’t know what they were. By the way, weren’t these the engines trying to put some secret BF with such power? -24 boiler is damn serious !!!

    Nitsa did not bring this "miracle" to condition. The plane, due to frequent fires of the power plant, received the unofficial nickname "torch".
    1. Train
      Train 28 January 2018 11: 46
      +1
      Well, not fig-other engines were ... one better than ours ... um the truth really didn’t help them .. helped ... but not for long comparatively.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 28 January 2018 12: 40
        +1
        Quote: Zug
        one better than ours


        Usually yes, but no in this particular case. 606th is a clear setback, but the ASH-82 proved to be quite worthy. At the beginning, the 606th was proposed on the Americanabomber projects, but during the war it was abandoned in favor of the BMW801, also a double radial seven.
        1. Aster90
          Aster90 31 January 2018 20: 26
          0
          The ASH-82 was not a bad motor in itself. Its main problem is low boost, and the impossibility of further growth in power (he stopped at 1800 forces, further growth stopped). I must say that the version with 1700 forces (La-7) had problems with the resource and overheating. On the post-war La-9 and La-11, they tried to fix this by installing a ring oil cooler (like the FW-190).
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 31 January 2018 20: 50
            +1
            Quote: Aster90
            low boost, and the impossibility of further growth in power (he stopped at 1800 forces, further growth stopped).

            For non-methanol double sevens is enough. His brother Wright 2600 did not give this either (although this brother also had his brothers, much more serious).
            1. NF68
              NF68 31 January 2018 21: 32
              0
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              His brother Wright 2600 did not give this either (although this brother also had his brothers, much more serious).


              In the second half of WWII, the motor resources of these Wrights reached 400-500 hours.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 31 January 2018 22: 10
                +1
                Quote: NF68
                The motor resource of these Wright reached 400-500 hours.

                Do you mean that the less forced and better-made heldiver engine was more durable than the La-7? You are absolutely right.
    2. NF68
      NF68 28 January 2018 16: 23
      +1
      [quote = andrey-ivanov] [quote = Zug] The plane, due to frequent fires of the power plant, received the unofficial nickname "torch." [/ quote]

      He was nicknamed the flying lighter.
      1. Aster90
        Aster90 31 January 2018 20: 28
        0
        He was called the "Reichfoerzoyg", or "imperial lighter." Because of the love of nacelles for spontaneous fires. The problem was solved only on serial modifications of the He-177. But in the end, they all the same switched to the classic 4-motor scheme, creating the He-277, which, however, did not have time to get into the series.
        1. NF68
          NF68 31 January 2018 21: 40
          0
          Quote: Aster90
          But in the end, they all the same switched to the classic 4 motor scheme, creating the He-277, which, however, did not manage to get into the series.


          Ernst Heinkel initially proposed not to bother with these twin engines that did not perform well in the Non-119 where they were specially run. And about the fact that the creation of a dive bomber of such a size as the Non-177 is a very serious mistake, he also spoke out and tried to convey this to the relevant authorities. In the leadership of the Luftwaffe, his proposal was not taken into account and in the end they got what they got.
  7. vadim dok
    vadim dok 28 January 2018 13: 04
    0
    Mosquito is a BOMBERS, even WITHOUT defensive weapons, And not a night fighter !!!,
    1. Curious
      Curious 28 January 2018 13: 24
      +5
      If you do not own the question, do not write such categorical comments.

      Mosquito F.Mk.II. Armament: four 20 mm guns, four 7.7 mm machine guns.
      The first serial fighter Mosquito F.II was the aircraft with serial number W4074. Following him in January-March 1942 another 21 vehicles followed. All of them left the Hatfield factory without radars and therefore immediately went to special workshops of the Air Force, where they mounted the AI.Mk.IV kit with a meter wavelength range on airplanes. In connection with the completion, the first units of the Mosquito fighter were prepared for battle only at the end of April (although the 157th squadron formally rearmament in the "deuces" in January). The vehicles transferred to night fighter squadrons received the designation NF.II. Production aircraft developed a maximum speed of 608 km / h at an altitude of 6700 m (8 km / h less than the prototype W4052). The B. IV series I bombers with the same Merlin 21 engines were faster at about 6 km / h, due to the lack of radar antennas and a flat windshield. Partially, the loss of speed of the fighter jets was compensated by elongated engine nacelles.
      In more detail http://airwar.ru/enc/fww2/dh98_f.html
      1. Curious
        Curious 28 January 2018 13: 33
        +4

        Mosquito NF.Mk.II night fighter with AI Mk.IV. radar antenna
    2. NF68
      NF68 28 January 2018 17: 12
      +1
      Quote: vadim dok
      Mosquito is a BOMBERS, even WITHOUT defensive weapons, And not a night fighter !!!,


      There were fighter variants of Mosquito.
      http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/dh98_f.html
      http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/dh98_fb.html
      http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/dh98_nf.html
    3. Alf
      Alf 28 January 2018 20: 48
      +4
      Quote: vadim dok
      Mosquito is a BOMBERS, even WITHOUT defensive weapons, And not a night fighter !!!,

      Options Mosquito-heavy fighter, night fighter, interceptor, light bomber, reconnaissance, torpedo bomber.
      Teach materiel.
  8. Curious
    Curious 28 January 2018 14: 06
    +2
    For some reason, the author has not completely touched upon such an aspect of the confrontation as electronic warfare.
    Indeed, back in 1930, the German company Lorenz developed and began to produce a radio navigation system designed to perform landings in conditions of insufficient visibility at night.
    In 1933, the German scientist Dr. Hans Plendl began research on the possibility of using the Lorenz system to increase the accuracy of systems, especially bombing in poor visibility conditions at night. The results of these studies are Knickebein, X-Gerät, Y-Gerät systems. The development of electronic countermeasure systems has robbed the British of very serious resources. Subsequently, Churchill wrote about this struggle: “It was a secret war, whose battles, whether victories or defeats, remained unknown to the public, and even now it is only slightly understood by those who do not belong to the narrow scientific circle of technical specialists. If British science had not been better than German, and if these strange, ominous means were used in the battle for survival, we could almost certainly be defeated, crushed, and destroyed. "
  9. NF68
    NF68 28 January 2018 16: 21
    +1
    Ernst Heinkel tried to convince Udet that the twin DB-606 engines tested on Non-119 had many flaws and that it would be best to install 4 single engines as was customary at the time. And the requirement to provide Non-177 to strike in a dive is a gross mistake. Everyone was well aware that Ernst Heinkel and his team of designers led by him were quite experienced specialists not only well-known in Germany. But the leadership of the Luftwaffe decided not to take Heinkel’s warnings into account and as a result received a huge number of problems that were resolved in the 1943 year when the OSI countries almost lost the WWII. But it is quite possible that if Heinkel’s proposal were taken into account, the first production versions of the Non-177 could enter the Luftwaffe combat formations even at the beginning of the battle for Britain and their participation would force the RAF to keep part of its fighters to cover rear facilities far from the channel . Further, during the 1941-1942's, it would be possible without a fuss to switch from the release of Non-111 to Non-177.
  10. CTABEP
    CTABEP 28 January 2018 17: 03
    +1
    For photos plus, some are first seen.
  11. Comrade Kim
    Comrade Kim 28 January 2018 18: 03
    +1
    Correspondence pages.
  12. Comrade Kim
    Comrade Kim 28 January 2018 18: 06
    0
    Quote: Kotischa
    Feel the difference!

    What is it, more precisely, the people said:
    To whom is War, and to whom is Mother native.
  13. Comrade Kim
    Comrade Kim 28 January 2018 18: 23
    +3
    Quote: sd68
    Yeah, Stalin and Hitler attacked Poland just because of this.

    Before, as you put it, "Stalin attacked Poland," the British defiantly ignored all the proposals of the USSR for cooperation.
    The British sent to the negotiations in Moscow not even secondary military / officials, but semi-permanent retirees.
    But squeals and snot for some reason causes only the demarcation of Germany and the USSR "Polish" lands.
    Rђ RІRѕS, 30 September 1938 years these clickers don’t remember at all!
    But it would be worth it.
    As a result of the Munich agreement of 1938, England, France and the United States fed Hitler Germany and Poland Czechoslovakia, spitting on all previously concluded allied agreements with it.
    From the essay by O. Buzina https://www.segodnya.ua/world/ictorii-ot-olecja-b
    uziny-kak-poljaki-c-hitlerom-chekhoclovakiju-pode
    lili.html
    But the Polish ambassador in Paris, Lukasevich, on May 21 assured the US ambassador to France Bullitt that Poland would immediately declare war on the Soviets if they tried to send troops through Polish territory to help Czechoslovakia.
    Poles were always greedy for a foreign land.
    Romania grabbed Transylvania from the Austro-Hungarian heritage, the majority of its population being Hungarians. Budapest, gritting his teeth, while suffering this "injustice." Warsaw swallowed the so-called Eastern Galicia with Lviv, then inhabited mainly by Poles and Jews, and Volyn, Western Belarus and a piece of Lithuania and Vilnius that entered Russia before the First World War.
    1. Bask
      Bask 28 January 2018 18: 34
      0
      And what about the USA and Munich? There were no US representatives there. Or am I mistaken? Well, you yourself wrote in your comment that Poland categorically refused to let Soviet troops pass through its territory. Did the British need to force them? Although it may have been necessary, but the British did not see an ally in the USSR. And what? What are the complaints? It was their vision of foreign policy. Now we can say that they acted stupidly, but then no one knew how everything would turn out.
  14. shuravi
    shuravi 29 January 2018 01: 30
    +1
    So the question is, where do such analytics come from?

    Therefore, in Steinbock, only ordinary manned aircraft were involved, which had to be pulled to the English Channel from all over Europe, exposing the warring fronts. When the Red Army smashed the Wehrmacht in Ukraine, near Leningrad and in the Crimea, German bombers, instead of supporting their troops, flew to London at night, unsuccessfully trying to break the morale of the British.


    And really, what kind of things are these? What kind of rams, German command? 1944 year, the front is heading west, and they "instead of supporting their troops flew to London at night, unsuccessfully trying to break the morale of the British."
    No, guys, rams like analytics writing similar articles. For they do not know that in order to support the ground forces one kind of aviation is used, and for strategic bombings, another.
    And in any way front-line aviation could not strike at London. The 200-250 km range is beyond her.
    At the same time, what was the use of strategic aviation for the Germans in January 1944?
    Yes, no. For the entire key industry has long been out of reach. Despite the fact that aviation and air defense of the USSR gained strength. Long-distance raids deep into the territory of the USSR there was already a one-way ticket without any significant effect.
    Excuse me, if there was a problem to find such a large target as London, then what could be done at ranges of over a thousand kilometers? While the combat load was reduced due to an increase in fuel supply.
    So they found use, in fact, already useless aircraft. After all, London was near and big.
    1. Aster90
      Aster90 31 January 2018 20: 34
      0
      A massive raid of such aircraft somewhere beyond the Urals at the same time. Could very much perplex the leadership of the USSR. And given how the Red Army had a "developed" radar detection system, and how many high-altitude interceptors were (or rather, they simply did not exist, in general). And also the number of long-range air defense. Then there even a dozen aircraft that broke through could cause such enormous damage to industry. So it’s good that the Natsiks aimed at the British.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 31 January 2018 20: 52
        +1
        Quote: Aster90
        Then there, even a dozen airplanes that broke through could cause such enormous damage to industry

        Unless with great luck. The Allies sent more than 1000 planes from one heroic heroic.
  15. Cartalon
    Cartalon 29 January 2018 13: 07
    0
    [quote = moroz656] Absolutely, the British never fight with their own hands. A nation that does not know the word-shame, there is a word convenient. About Somme and Ypres did not hear anything? Read, you'll learn a lot.
  16. Shteffan
    Shteffan 29 January 2018 20: 35
    +1
    Bask,
    the Germans declared an unprecedented concentration of Soviet troops on the border, in particular on the border with Romania (the only source of oil for Germany). It is unnecessary for anyone to look for the reasons for the attack - this is such stupidity, the reasons were reasonably voiced.
    1. Bask
      Bask 29 January 2018 21: 27
      0
      Finding true causes is not stupid. Concentration of troops near the border is an occasion, not a reason. Moreover, the Soviet troops did not have time to concentrate at their borders and the Germans could not know. Read about the same days of the same Isaev. On the southern borders there really were more troops than in the Belarussian Special District, but the reason was not oil, but the General Staff of the Red Army suggested that the Wehrmacht would deliver the main blow precisely in the direction of the Odessa District. In my opinion, I explained everything reasonably, but if you are not satisfied with the case Yours.
      1. Shteffan
        Shteffan 30 January 2018 00: 12
        +1
        your arguments do not correspond to the facts. The effectiveness of German intelligence is disgusting-fact. The General Staff of the Red Army did not believe in the pre-emptive strike of the Germans and did not take into account planning-fact. Isaev is insinuations on the topic, and not serious studies confirmed by archives.
        1. Bask
          Bask 30 January 2018 00: 35
          0
          The fact that the Germans knew about the location of not only the main, but also the alternate aerodromes was a fact. The main blow was delivered where they did not expect it at all. It was a fact that no one doubted the war. The General Staff headquarters in the 41st clearly indicate that the plan to repel the attack and counterattack was a fact. Well, finally, Isaev is a historian who works with archival documents not only in Russia but also in Germany. And if you say that Isaev is not a serious researcher who writes his books from balds, and not based on archival documents, you can make that you haven’t read a single book by this author. For the sake of interest, take any book and take the trouble to browse, there are links to archival documents everywhere. And I don’t think that you have the right to speak indiscriminately about a person, only on the grounds that then on the Internet you found a piece of paper and made some conclusions. By the way, the link you provided is not working.
          1. Shteffan
            Shteffan 30 January 2018 00: 39
            +1
            I didn’t read. I don’t want and I won’t. If Isaev claims that the USSR was waiting for the German attack, then these primers do not stand even 5 minutes of my time.
            1. Bask
              Bask 30 January 2018 18: 53
              0
              Then it’s not for you to judge Isaev’s books. It seems to me that an adult and a thinking person will not consider books that he did not read in primers, even if the events described in them are described in a different way than he needs. And there was no doubt that the war with Germany would be. And moreover, they were preparing intensively for it. But since you do not like this interpretation, I ask you not to bother reading my comments hi .
              1. Shteffan
                Shteffan 30 January 2018 19: 10
                +1
                it’s enough for me to know about Isaev’s books what he kept silent about. you don’t read the books. yes, you’ve only prepared for war offensive. the initial period of the war is secret. and your Isaev will lead you away from the truth like Moses in the wilderness. With court "historians" you always live in your illusions. need it.
                1. Bask
                  Bask 30 January 2018 19: 21
                  0
                  Well, fly me a little sparrow! I wish you the same, in your most truthful truth.
          2. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 30 January 2018 07: 03
            0
            Quote: Bask
            everywhere there are links to archival documents

            Unfortunately, this is not an argument. Rezun also has a bulk of links.
            1. Bask
              Bask 30 January 2018 19: 02
              0
              And what is the argument for you? Which books and which authors do you think are quite truthful? It seems to me that Isaev parses everything in his books in sufficient detail. He has books in which he parses each operation separately, bringing the forces of the warring parties to their weapons, etc. Explain then what are the similarities between rezun and Isaev?
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 30 January 2018 20: 28
                0
                Quote: Bask
                Which books and which authors do you consider to be fairly truthful?

                I won’t name it right away.
                Quote: Bask
                He has books in which he separately analyzes each operation, bringing the forces of the warring parties to their weapons, etc.

                There is one. But, unfortunately, if Isaev is right in the work on rivets, he is always right in the historical interpretation. Moreover, the interpretations of the telepathic plan that Hitler thought there.
                In particular, I will not forget his fantasies on the theme "Me262 break day D". Like a trifle, but sunk into the soul.
                1. Bask
                  Bask 30 January 2018 21: 00
                  0
                  I don’t pay attention to this (I'm talking about Me 262). I’m interested in his books parsing the initial period of the war, Stalingrad, the Battle of Kursk. And Hitler knows what Hitler knows, and let historians think of it. Not only Isaev sins. Liddel Garth can also be a bunch of complaints, but nonetheless it is interesting to read his books.
                2. Aster90
                  Aster90 31 January 2018 20: 51
                  0

                  I won’t name it right away.

                  Can I guess?
                  Literature under the publishing house: Sovinformburo, later the USSR Ministry of Culture. Very valuable, useful, and most importantly truthful literature. Especially about the pre-war period!
              2. Shteffan
                Shteffan 30 January 2018 22: 38
                +1
                Isaev and Rezun not opponents?
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 31 January 2018 08: 33
                  0
                  Quote: Steffan
                  Isaev and Rezun not opponents?

                  Unfortunately, Soviet, pro-Soviet and anti-Soviet propaganda have a lot in common. Therefore, in the case of Isaev, it is necessary to carefully monitor where he studies the facts as a historian, and where he begins to persecute his "truth" as a publicist, selecting facts for her.
            2. Aster90
              Aster90 31 January 2018 20: 46
              0
              If archived data is not an argument, then what? What to believe? Soviet historical literature (which, judging by the written text, you believe more) often does not cite any statements, and the text consists of unfounded statements mixed with ideologies.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 31 January 2018 21: 06
                +1
                Quote: Aster90
                Soviet historical literature (which, judging by the written text, you believe more),

                You, as I understand it, came here for the first time, and did not even read this thread.
  17. Alf
    Alf 29 January 2018 22: 36
    0
    Town Hall,
    The war in Berlin ended, not in Moscow.
    1. Town Hall
      Town Hall 29 January 2018 22: 39
      +1
      Well, I can answer that the whole system for the sake of which he almost ruined the country did not last 30 years after his death. And even the end of the war in Berlin didn’t stop. That victory was too expensive
      1. Alf
        Alf 29 January 2018 23: 31
        0
        Quote: Town Hall
        . That victory was too expensive

        Right. We had to give up, now we would drink Bavarian beer, standing on the towers ...
      2. Bask
        Bask 29 January 2018 23: 45
        0
        Well, what kind of system would you propose? After all, the USSR was left alone, countries such as England and France were not going to help. The First World War was followed by Civil, complete devastation. Understand me correctly, I don’t drown for Stalin. It’s easy to say so easy when nothing you don’t decide, but when the fate of a multimillion-dollar country depends on you, it’s different. I now live in a country where the situation looks a bit like the one in which the USSR ended up. Since the 91st rulers have chosen a different system-democracy, etc. And why it led? The common people in debt which he did not do, and who borrowed money, plundered it and dumped it when it cooks, the country is ruled by the USA and Europe. Is such a system closer to you? I apologize for the offtopic.
  18. The comment was deleted.
  19. Town Hall
    Town Hall 30 January 2018 12: 03
    +1
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Quote: Town Hall
    And it helped him a lot? ... he did not give the green light to Hitler in Poland

    There is an opinion that the "seminarian" did exactly the same thing as Chamberlain and Deladier - he won time for mobilization (for one he hurted in Eastern Europe). And, like them, he underestimated the partner’s recklessness.





    Nobody is trying to write down these two in the genius of foreign policy. And in certain circles he continues to be known as such.


    If you do not slip into alternativeism, then Hitler outplayed him in the 39th and by June of the 41st USSR he was in a much worse position than he was in September of the 39th
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 30 January 2018 13: 23
      0
      Quote: Town Hall
      If you do not slip into alternativeism, then Hitler outplayed him in the 39th and by June of the 41st USSR he was in a much worse position than he was in September of the 39th

      Yes, how to say. In the 39th, according to Finland, judging, the situation was also awful. Made in 39-41 quite a lot. Another thing is that everything that was done was done poorly (like the early T-34, like the best tank in the world in numbers, but shit by shit). But here "it is necessary to change the whole system."
      1. Town Hall
        Town Hall 30 January 2018 16: 41
        +1
        The Wehrmacht over the past two years has done much more in terms of both technology and tactics and combat experience. So the gap compared with the 39th still widened not in favor of the USSR in this regard either.


        but I had more in mind the geopolitical situation. In 39 there was no common border, England and France were not defeated in the rear, Poland, Romania, Finland, Hungary were not enemies.


        thanks to the ingenious decisions of August / September 39th to June 41st, the situation worsened and much. And the border is common, and the defeated England and France, and enemies along all borders.
        1. Bask
          Bask 30 January 2018 19: 14
          0
          They tried to negotiate with England and France in August 39, but the leaders of these countries did not want to. The Finns and Poles were enemies. Or did you forget the Soviet-Polish war of 1919-1921? The war with the Finns March 1918 - October 1920. Or do you think that after these wars, the USSR remained friends with these countries? Romania quiet glanders, taking advantage of the civil war seized Bessarabia.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 30 January 2018 20: 39
            0
            Quote: Town Hall
            but I had more in mind the geopolitical situation. In 39 there was no common border, England and France were not defeated in the rear, Poland, Romania, Finland, Hungary were not enemies.

            Well, as the experience of Poland has shown, from the undefeated England and France in the rear there is so little sense.
            It is believed that in the 39th everything was already clear with the war as a whole. The question was to whom it would be more convenient to enter this holiday of life. More fortunate, of course, happened to the Americans.
            Yes, Vissarionych did so-so.
            Quote: Bask
            Or did you forget the Soviet-Polish war of 1919-1921? The war with the Finns March 1918 - October 1920. Or do you think that after these wars, the USSR remained friends with these countries? Romania quiet glanders, taking advantage of the civil war seized Bessarabia.

            You see, the Bolsheviks were people of this kind, with all their enemies.
            And as for the quiet glanders (like female DB) - that’s how I, for example, consider the abolition of Brest-Litovsk a tragedy.
            1. Bask
              Bask 30 January 2018 21: 05
              0
              Well, after all, it was not the Bolsheviks who invited the Poles to Kiev. Or was it somehow different? The Finns also tried to warm their hands. Well, and who are they after that? I think the enemies. And the Bolsheviks or anyone else is not important.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 30 January 2018 21: 42
                +1
                Quote: Bask
                But the Bolsheviks or someone else does not matter.

                This is a matter of political preference. Tolerasts, like me, believe that the more people left at least temporarily without Soviet power, the better.
                1. Bask
                  Bask 30 January 2018 22: 04
                  0
                  Well, to each his own. I am equally with the Tolerasts and the Bolsheviks. I am more interested in historical aspects and events. And who is bad, good. All these are things of the past.
                  1. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 31 January 2018 08: 37
                    +1
                    Quote: Bask
                    And who is bad, good. All these are things of the past.

                    It is, of course, true. Only you, the Finns, also tried to warm your hands, and mine, the Finns saved as many Russian citizens from cannibals as they could.
                    1. Bask
                      Bask 31 January 2018 17: 29
                      0
                      And why excuse the salvation? The beginning of the civil war in Finland? And how did they save the Russian citizens? Killing the Russians without sparing even women and children? I apologize again, but I did not understand you.
                      1. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 31 January 2018 21: 01
                        +1
                        Quote: Bask
                        how did they save Russian citizens?

                        This will sound very controversial, but they themselves were Russian citizens.
                        Quote: Bask
                        And why forgive salvation? The beginning of the civil war in Finland?

                        Exactly. Just the destruction of the Finnish Socialist
                        I call the working republic "the struggle against cannibals." In that part of the former Russia, which was not so lucky as Finland, cannibalism in the 18th year did not end, but only began. Both in rhetorical and in the literal sense.
        2. Alf
          Alf 30 January 2018 22: 12
          0
          Quote: Town Hall
          Poland, Romania, Finland, Hungary are not enemies.

          This is not that Poland, which was going to attack the USSR together with Germany?
          1. Town Hall
            Town Hall 30 January 2018 22: 41
            +1
            Quote: Alf
            This is not that Poland, which was going to attack the USSR together with Germany?



            No, it's different
  20. NF68
    NF68 30 January 2018 18: 06
    0
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Quote: NF68
    Apparently, the length of water-cooled engines did not play a special role how many cylinders will be located in one row

    Yes. That's why they are in-line))) They have rows along and not across.


    What is even more interesting is that the sizes of the V-12 engine nacelles of the Jumo-211 engine and the 24's Jumo-222 cylinder are close:



    At the same time, the weight of the Jumo-222 is approximately 1,5 times greater, and the power is approximately 2 times greater. True, it should be noted that the complexity of the design and the related development and bringing to mind Jumo-222 are also much larger because they also have to pay for such bells and whistles.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 30 January 2018 20: 30
      0
      You're right. Two pennies of aerodynamics - the only thing they guessed.
  21. NF68
    NF68 30 January 2018 21: 22
    0
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Quote: NF68
    And on the side, and in front they are star-shaped 4's in-line.

    As you wish.
    I call stars only radial TWO. But this is not scripture.


    The Germans themselves considered the Jumo-222 an inline star-shaped engine:

    what they wrote about:

    Jumo 222 A / B

    Typ: Reihensternmotor 6 × 4 = 24 Zylinder
    Bore: 135 mm
    Hub: 135 mm
    Displacement: 46,4 liter
    Verdichtungsverhältnis: 6,5: 1
    Trockenmasse: 1084 kg
    Startleistung: 2000 PS / 1470 kW bei 2900 min − 1
    Masse-Leistungsverhältnis: 0,54 kg / PS
    Volldruckhöhe: 5500 m.

    Star engine with 6 cylinders in a row:

    : Da beim Junkers Jumo 222 jeweils sechs Zylinder pro Stern angeordnet sind, zählt er zu den sogenannten Hexagon-Motoren

    Or another such example:

    Curtiss H-1640 Chieftain
    luftgekühlter 12-Zylinder-Reihensternmotor mit zwei 6-Zylinder-Sternen hintereinander

    An air-cooled engine in which the cylinders are arranged in 2 rows in 6 cylinders in a row.

    Or post-war Soviet VD4-K:

    The engine is an 24 cylinder block star (six blocks per 4 cylinder in each).
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 30 January 2018 21: 40
      0
      Quote: NF68
      The Germans themselves considered the Jumo-222 an inline star-shaped engine:

      OK, I will consider this my private quirk.
      Quote: NF68
      The leadership of the Luftwaffe before WWII made a very big mistake as a result of which the Luftwaffe only in 1943 received more or less reliable heavy bombers

      The backlash management, in fact, worked on a blitzkrieg. Strategic bombers are unnecessary here.
  22. NF68
    NF68 30 January 2018 21: 26
    0
    The leadership of the Luftwaffe before WWII made a very big mistake as a result of which the Luftwaffe only in the 1943 year received more or less reliable heavy bombers, thereby easing the position of both the BI and the USSR. And in 1944, by the forces that the Germans had, it would be impossible to inflict serious damage on either the BI or the USSR.
    1. Alf
      Alf 30 January 2018 22: 21
      0
      Quote: NF68
      The leadership of the Luftwaffe before WWII made a very big mistake

      There was no mistake. Why shatter what will soon be captured and used for their own benefit? In addition, it should be remembered that Germany did not possess gigantic stocks of materials. Yes, and one four-engine strategist is the 4 engine and, roughly speaking, instead of one strategist, you can make the 4 U-87, which proved to be much more necessary in the blitzkrieg. And against whom to use the strategists in 40-41? England, so here it is, over the Channel to fly over, Poland and France? Same. THE USSR ? So they planned to trample in 6 months. But in 43, when it became finally clear that "only back", then strategists were needed. But, as they say, the train left. Americans B-17 from the 35-th year finished, but actually got only in the 42-m.
  23. NF68
    NF68 31 January 2018 17: 27
    0
    Quote: Alf
    Quote: NF68
    The leadership of the Luftwaffe before WWII made a very big mistake

    There was no mistake. Why shatter what will soon be captured and used for their own benefit? In addition, it should be remembered that Germany did not possess gigantic stocks of materials. Yes, and one four-engine strategist is the 4 engine and, roughly speaking, instead of one strategist, you can make the 4 U-87, which proved to be much more necessary in the blitzkrieg. And against whom to use the strategists in 40-41? England, so here it is, over the Channel to fly over, Poland and France? Same. THE USSR ? So they planned to trample in 6 months. But in 43, when it became finally clear that "only back", then strategists were needed. But, as they say, the train left. Americans B-17 from the 35-th year finished, but actually got only in the 42-m.


    It would not hurt to remember that the Germans themselves before WWII didn’t really count on real seizure, for example, of the industry of most European countries. For the Germans, a quick and easy victory over France was something like a miracle. And again, before the WWII in Germany, it was decided to begin construction of a powerful surface fleet capable of withstanding the British Navy, as a result of which the main assets were directed to the development of the German Navy. To conduct aerial reconnaissance and deliver strikes in the interests of the fleet, the Germans still needed 4-x motor bomber planes with a significantly longer range than all 2-x motor planes. C B-17 Americans have been transporting for so long because of turbochargers driven by exhaust gases. The Germans seriously engaged in the same turbochargers somewhat later than the Americans. In addition, immediately after the start of WWII, the Germans had problems with the production of heat-resistant materials because they lacked the necessary raw materials. As a result, the Germans nevertheless solved this problem, but did it too late. Meanwhile, as early as 1936, Junkers successfully tested the V-12 high-altitude L-88 engine. With the help of this engine, the experimental Ju-49 aircraft which reached a height of 13000 meters.
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_49
    For this engine, the first stage of the mechanical supercharger was located in front of the engine as on the DB-628, and the second stage was located as usual with a single-stage supercharger at the rear side. Let the first step then was still cumbersome, but in the future it was possible to create a more compact unit. But even here the leadership of the Luftwaffe did not take into account these studies. And that was also a serious mistake.
    In addition, the installation of 4 separate engines on the Non-177 instead of the twin 2 would allow the use of various types of engines suitable for power and size. It could be DB-601, Jumo-211, Jumo-213 or BMW-801. In the future, it would be possible to use high-altitude warrants of the same engines. In extreme cases, it would be possible to use the DB-605 AS with a large single-stage supercharger from DB-603 providing an altitude of 7,8 km. Those. and with this engine the Non-177 could have good flight characteristics at altitudes up to 8,0-8,5 km.

    The leadership of the Luftwaffe became aware of all these errors after it turned out that the war was becoming protracted. And when they rushed to correct the perfect mistakes, then there was no longer enough time.
    1. Alf
      Alf 31 January 2018 22: 08
      0
      Quote: NF68
      would allow
      ,
      Quote: NF68
      could be
      ,
      Quote: NF68
      could have
      . All this on paper. At 177, the Germans used only one type of engine and sipped their fill. The designer can draw anything, but to make it fly, you need a lot of time, effort and money.
      1. NF68
        NF68 1 February 2018 17: 15
        0
        Quote: Alf
        Quote: NF68
        would allow
        ,
        Quote: NF68
        could be
        ,
        Quote: NF68
        could have
        . All this on paper. At 177, the Germans used only one type of engine and sipped their fill. The designer can draw anything, but to make it fly, you need a lot of time, effort and money.


        To be more precise, then on Non-177 A-3 and on A-5

        http://www.airwar.ru/enc/bww2/he177a5.html

        installed the DB-610 engine, which was a paired DB-605. This option turned out to be more reliable. We also planned the A-7 variant with DB-613 engines, which were twin DB-603 engines. DB-1942 was also installed on the Ju-288 b medium bombers developed in 606, but on this aircraft the engine layout was different than on the Non-177 A-1 and the engines worked more or less normally.
  24. Bask
    Bask 31 January 2018 21: 20
    0
    Cherry nine,
    Well, why is it debatable that all Finns were truly citizens of the Russian Empire, and before that they were subjects of the Swedish crown. Their territorial claims are no longer clear. Do you call cannibalism as I understood the civil war? But then you forget that not only the Bolsheviks were guilty of this , but also other citizens of the former empire of different political views.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 31 January 2018 22: 16
      +1
      Quote: Bask
      Moreover, their territorial claims are not clear.

      What kind of claims are we talking about?
      Quote: Bask
      You call cannibalism as I understood the civil war?

      No, this is what happened to many, although more often in the Middle Ages. I call cannibalism a period of at least the 53rd year.
      1. Bask
        Bask 1 February 2018 15: 08
        0
        I’m saying that Finland suddenly began to aspire to a new formation on the territory almost to Leningrad. But is the repression of the Stalinist and not only government not the result of a civil war? After all, our society is now divided into white and red, and even then offended enough and even more so.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 1 February 2018 18: 39
          +1
          Quote: Bask
          began to claim in the territory almost to Leningrad.

          And why are you not satisfied with the tsarist administrative borders, at that time a century ago? Too tyrant Nikita Alexander gave?
          Quote: Bask
          But is the repression of Stalinist and not only government not a consequence of the civil war?

          How is it with the consequences of the mentioned GV among the Chukhons?
          1. Bask
            Bask 1 February 2018 20: 25
            0
            No, I donated and presented, but thanks to the Bolsheviks, Finland appeared. I didn’t understand about the Chukhontsev. I just think that the repressions of Stalin, as well as collaboration during the Great Patriotic War, are the consequences of GV. At the beginning of which not only the Bolsheviks are guilty. I think that you don’t like the Bolsheviks for personal reasons.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 2 February 2018 08: 22
              +1
              Quote: Bask
              thanks to the Bolsheviks, Finland appeared

              Finland appeared thanks to the Senate and Manerheim, which were able to what the founders and Kornilov could not. Namely, to outweigh the Bolsheviks within the entrusted territory.
              Quote: Bask
              About Chukhontsev did not understand

              The colloquial and derogatory name of citizens of Russia of Finnish origin in the 19th century.
              Quote: Bask
              that the repressions of Stalin, as well as collaboration during the Great Patriotic War, are the consequences of GV

              The aftermath of PMV, rather. Including GV in Russia and the one who won it.
              Quote: Bask
              At the beginning of which not only the Bolsheviks are guilty

              At the beginning of the GV, the government is to blame anyway. And Nikolaev, and temporary. The 17th year was the result of the development of tsarist Russia, and not the corruption imposed by the German General Staff and the Rothschilds, as is commonly believed among fans of the French bun. Just as the 91st was the result of many years, at least since the beginning of the 70s, the decay of the USSR.
              Quote: Bask
              Bolsheviks you do not like for personal reasons.

              Still would. I was not born in Australia.
              1. Bask
                Bask 2 February 2018 14: 07
                0
                Well, I can agree with the fact that the Senate contributed to the emergence of Finland, but the Provisional Government and the Council of People's Commissars are also directly related to the emergence of this country. Yes, and if it were not for the German army, most likely the Bolsheviks would have won in Finland. I agree with the rest. Well, you see, you transfer personal grievances only to the Bolsheviks. And why then do not get angry with the tsar (who entered the war which Russia does not need for nothing), the Provisional Government (which forced the tzar to abdicate, but nothing good but it didn’t). The Bolsheviks only picked up what was bad.
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 2 February 2018 20: 12
                  +1
                  Quote: Bask
                  but the Provisional Government and the Council of People's Commissars are also directly related to the emergence of this country

                  I mean, they could not interfere, although they tried?
                  Quote: Bask
                  And if it were not for the German army, then most likely the Bolsheviks would have won in Finland

                  Quite possible. On the other hand, the German army was much where.
                  Quote: Bask
                  You transfer personal insults only to the Bolsheviks

                  I would not call it an "insult."
                  Quote: Bask
                  And why then do not be angry with

                  It seems that I clearly said that the GV and everything subsequent was a natural consequence of the activities of the tsarist and interim governments. Nevertheless, the small parts of the former Russia turned from this place to the bourgeois republics, and the main to Comrade Stalin.
                  1. Bask
                    Bask 3 February 2018 09: 12
                    0
                    If I understand you correctly, it’s all the same with anyone, but against the Bolsheviks. Well, in principle, this is your opinion and it’s stupid to argue. Just as time has shown, the democratic system is not about us either. Now in my country it’s kind of a democracy supported by countries like the USA and Germany, but life is not nearly better, but worse than under the Bolsheviks.
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 3 February 2018 13: 17
                      +1
                      Quote: Bask
                      anyway with whom, only against the Bolsheviks

                      This was a fairly common opinion, until WFGN could prove the opposite.
                      Quote: Bask
                      Just as time has shown, the democratic system is also not about us.

                      Time did not show. The "democratic system" is the transit of power through electoral procedures. Just with the transit of power in Russia, everything is bad. Significantly worse than in the USSR.
                      In Ukraine, by the way, this is an order of magnitude better. Which in itself does not guarantee paradise, but does guarantee a certain distance from hell.
                      Just as in modern Russia (I know little about Ukraine), there has never been capitalism.
                      Quote: Bask
                      but life is not nearly better, but also worse than under the Bolsheviks.

                      Are you sure that you know well the realities of the 20s and 30s? I would venture to suggest that you are currently sitting warm and not hungry. Not to mention the fact that they are not shot.
                      Quote: Bask
                      supported by countries like USA and Germany

                      Unfortunately for Ukraine, the politicians of both the USA and Germany would most like to never hear about it.
                      In order for you to seriously engage, as in your time with YUKorei, the foreign policy of GDP should be 100500 times more enchanting than it is now.
                      1. Bask
                        Bask 4 February 2018 11: 16
                        0
                        Believe me, what is happening in Ukraine and there are the 20-30s. Yes, I will not hide sitting in the heat and not starving, but I regularly see people climbing in the trash (mostly pensioners). In my country, people are imprisoned for nine years invented accusations, and criminals accused of robbery and rape are released or given a maximum of probation. For an opinion different from the official, it is easy to rattle in the SBU and this is not propaganda from the Russian media.
                        The authorities made fun of the transit. Poroshenko, who gained 54% in the elections, is just about that. It was impossible to wait a year and choose another president by law. It was necessary to arrange a massacre. So let's not talk about the transit of power in Ukraine.
                        I believe that Ukraine does not need the help of either the United States or Germany. The government and the people of my country should rely only on themselves and act exclusively in their interests, and not look deliberately either at the West or towards Russia. Stalin did just that. Yes the price was high, but I repeat, as the example of my country shows, Ukraine now pays a much higher price having lost its sovereignty.
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 4 February 2018 11: 59
                        +1
                        Quote: Bask
                        Believe what is happening in Ukraine and there are 20s-30s.

                        I understand your displeasure, but you are not describing the 30s.
                        Quote: Bask
                        but I watch people climbing in the trash (mostly pensioners). In my country, people are sentenced to nine years for invented charges, and criminals charged with robbery and rape are released or given a maximum of probation. For an opinion different from the official, it is easy to thunder at the SBU

                        From Russia, this does not look like any special tragedy, sorry.
                        Quote: Bask
                        Regarding the transit authorities made fun.

                        Nothing funny. Neither Yanukovych, nor Yushchenko, nor Kuchma, nor Kravchuk, appointed “successors” to themselves and did not make “castles”. And Gunpowder, apparently, will not be able to. Is it bad, is it good (I agree, so far not brilliantly), but the Ukrainian people decide their own fate. This achievement is in itself. Not everyone succeeded, unfortunately.
                        Quote: Bask
                        The government and the people of my country should rely only on themselves and act exclusively in their interests, and not look in the West or the West

                        In general, you are certainly right. On the other hand, overseas and gay Europe puppeteers can really help, and help seriously and quickly if they want. In particular, if the US State Department really controlled Ukraine, then Mr. Akhmetov, for example, would have sat down instantly.
                        Quote: Bask
                        Stalin did just that. Yes, the price was high

                        It seems to me that you, like most fans of the mustachioed, are not aware of either the price or what was bought.
                        Quote: Bask
                        Ukraine now pays a much higher price

                        Is the big price what you described above?
                        Quote: Bask
                        having lost its sovereignty.

                        So did not lose, that’s the trouble. It is not the Americans of Ukrainian politicians who taught and told to steal, and not even Putin, alas.
  25. NF68
    NF68 1 February 2018 17: 00
    0
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Quote: NF68
    The motor resource of these Wright reached 400-500 hours.

    Do you mean that the less forced and better-made heldiver engine was more durable than the La-7? You are absolutely right.


    The point is that the ASH-82 FN could be forced only at heights not higher than 2000 m:


    And the American R-2600 in this regard had slightly better characteristics at altitudes up to 5500-6000 m. In addition, more powerful R-2600 appeared in the second half of WWII:

    R-2600-3 - 1624 PS
    R-2600-9 - 1724 PS
    R-2600-12 - 1724 PS
    R-2600-13 - 1724 PS
    R-2600-20 - 1932 PS
    R-2600-22 - 1927 PS
    R-2600-23 - 1623 PS
    R-2600-29 - 1877 PS
    R-2600-94 - 1724 PS
    GR-2600-A5B - 1500 – 1700 PS
    GR-2600-A71 - 1300 PS
    GR-2600-C14 - 1750 PS
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 1 February 2018 18: 30
      0
      Quote: NF68
      somewhat better characteristics at altitudes up to 5500-6000 m. In addition, more powerful R-2600 appeared in the second half of WWII:

      Yes you are right. A little more volume, a little more power emergency.
      However, this does not change things. ASH -82 - the only, it seems to me, the Soviet military aircraft engine, which is not particularly inferior to analogues.
  26. NF68
    NF68 1 February 2018 21: 58
    0
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    However, this does not change things. ASH -82 - the only, it seems to me, the Soviet military aircraft engine, which is not particularly inferior to analogues.


    This is again how to look at this thing. For R-2600, which was installed only on bombers, a larger motor resource was more important than a higher power to the detriment of the motor resource. As for the Germans, already in the 1942 year they developed the BMW-801 E variant which developed 2000 hp on take-off. In 1943 year on drums FW-190
    the engine BMW-801 D2 at altitudes up to 1000 meters for 10 minutes developed power 2060 hp. In the 1944 year, the BMW-801 D with the MW-50 developed 2000 hp on take-off. and water-methanol boosting could be used at altitudes up to 5000 meters. Since the 1945, the BMW-801 S has been developing 2200 hp on takeoff. Moreover, all these engine options were produced in large series. FW-190 F, which was produced in small quantities on airplanes, was already developing 2400 hp.
    Japanese Nakajima Homare
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakajima_Homare
    with 35,8 liters of volume developed 1900 and 2000 hp.
    True, this engine had 18 cylinders.

    Towards the end of WWII, Bristol Hercules XVII developed 1735 horsepower, but this engine was installed only on bombers, and because of this, they did not squeeze out everything that could be squeezed out of it.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 2 February 2018 07: 38
      0
      Quote: NF68
      mounted only on bombers

      Attack aircraft, rather.
      Quote: NF68
      they developed a variant of the BMW-801 E

      From D2 onwards - methanol workers.
      Actually, from the point of view of the pilot, it does not matter how power is achieved. But, nevertheless, it is necessary, it seems to me to separate the engine itself and those technologies in which the USSR could not - methanol, 130 octane, turbocharging
      Quote: NF68
      the engine was installed only on bombers from which they couldn’t squeeze everything out of it

      I would say differently))). If the 82nd and 801st were top engines, then limes and mattresses had other models as tops, in which they bumped. Here I, of course, are cheating, comparing with experience, not BMW)))
      1. NF68
        NF68 2 February 2018 17: 03
        0
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        Attack aircraft, rather.


        So be it. But from this, the American one and two motor bombers still remained bombers. And some deck aircraft were also torpedo bombers.

        Actually, from the point of view of the pilot, it does not matter how power is achieved. But, nevertheless, it is necessary, it seems to me to separate the engine itself and those technologies in which the USSR could not - methanol, 130 octane, turbocharging


        Nevertheless, for the Razinets pilot, since during WWII without water-methanol boosting, the maximum power of the same type and variant of the engine was lower than that of the engine with water-methanol boosting and, in addition, the engine with water-methanol boosting could develop a higher maximum power up to 10 minutes, and without water-methanol boosting, as a rule, only 1-2 minutes.

        But, nevertheless, it is necessary, it seems to me to separate the engine itself and those technologies in which the USSR could not - methanol, 130 octane, turbocharging


        Naturally, this played a large role, and in the USSR they were forced to take into account

        I would say differently))). If the 82 and 801 were top engines, then limes and mattresses had other models as tops, into which they bumped.


        The British, and especially the Americans, had the opportunity to use the most modern equipment in the manufacture of aircraft and other engines, a large number of highly skilled workers and the best materials with which in Germany and the USSR were much worse, and in addition to these materials, the British and Americans from 1940 it was possible to produce a huge amount of aviation gasolines of all grades, which Germany and the USSR could only dream of.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 2 February 2018 20: 04
          0
          Quote: NF68
          For the pilot, Razinets was still as much as during the WWII

          Power was important for the pilot, and how it was achieved was secondary. I mean, at first I announced the high power of the ASh-82 by standards methanol free double sevens.
          Quote: NF68
          The British and especially the Americans had the opportunity to use the most modern equipment in the production of aircraft and other engines,

          It is not clear how your phrase relates to the cited mine. This seems to be the answer to the previous quote about technology.
          1. NF68
            NF68 2 February 2018 22: 33
            0
            Power was important for the pilot, and how it was achieved was secondary. I mean, at first I announced the high power of the ASH-82 by the standards of methanol-free double sevens.


            For pilots, altitude characteristics of engine power were also of no small importance. But not everything in this matter was simple even for the USA, whose scientific and industrial potential was much greater than in the USSR. Not in vain in the USSR throughout the war they tried to develop turbochargers driven by the exhaust gases of an engine suitable for use in combat units of the Red Army Air Force.

            Quote: Cherry Nine
            It is not clear how your phrase relates to the cited mine. This seems to be the answer to the previous quote about technology.


            I agree with you and briefly explained why in the aircraft engine industry of a particular country everything developed in this way, and not otherwise. Each of the countries used what it had the opportunity to use at one time or another.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 3 February 2018 00: 04
              0
              Quote: NF68
              For pilots, altitude characteristics of engine power were also of no small importance. But not everything in this business was simple even for the USA

              For the USSR it was simpler, for front-line aviation heights are different.
              Quote: NF68
              even for the USA, whose scientific and industrial potential was much greater than in the USSR

              Well, than the USSR is unconditional, and so the Americans were in the lead, EMNIP, in the oil industry and turbocharging. And mass production, of course. Technologically, the engines ahead were the British (valveless engines) and Germans (injection, methanol). Late Merlin (130/131) delivered almost the same power as Packard with WEP (2K +)
              1. NF68
                NF68 3 February 2018 16: 28
                0
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                For the USSR it was simpler, for front-line aviation heights are different.


                And the planes were simpler and cheaper than high-altitude.

                Quote: Cherry Nine
                Late Merlin (130 / 131) delivered almost the same power as Packard with WEP (2K +)


                Packard V-1650-9 with WEP (2K +) developed 2218 hp., And Merlin (130 / 131) only 2030 / 2060 hp. and as a result, the P-51 H with V-1650-9 developed a maximum speed of 780 hp., Those are about the same speed as developed Spiteful with Griffon 69 power of 2350 hp. I don’t understand why the British did not use water-methanol boosting like the Americans did. In this case, the 69-th Griffon could develop the order of 2500-2600 hp. and the maximum speeds of Spiteful in this case would have been higher than 800 km / h.

                Dear colleague. Have you seen these WWII fighter test data ?:
                http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 3 February 2018 17: 15
                  0
                  Quote: NF68
                  Packard V-1650-9 with WEP (2K +) developed 2218 hp., And Merlin (130/131) only 2030/2060 hp

                  1. 2090
                  2. Only?
                  Quote: NF68
                  I don’t understand why the British did not use water-methanol boosting like the Americans did.

                  Because, unlike the Americans, they had more powerful JOs. WEP, as I understand it, was considered a bit of an overlock. Without injection, Packard 9, EMNIP, and 1,5K did not.
                  Quote: NF68
                  and the maximum speed of Spiteful in this case would have been above 800 km / h.

                  There was no longer any interest in this. Spitful flew in June 44. Meteor is already flying. Vampire, Shutingstar. Old planes were still brought, but new ones were gone.
                  Quote: NF68
                  Have you seen these WWII fighter test data?

                  I am a humanist. Do not make me look at graph paper)))))

                  I saw some of this. What’s the question?
                  1. NF68
                    NF68 3 February 2018 17: 37
                    0
                    1. 2090 2. Only?


                    In a number of sources, the power is indicated 2218 hp., And for appearing just before the end of WWII 2270 hp.

                    There was no longer any interest in this. Spitful flew in June 44. Meteor is already flying. Vampire, Shutingstar. Old planes were still brought, but new ones were gone.


                    Jet engines were transported for a very long time, and because of this, the use of aircraft with these engines was very limited.


                    I am a humanist. Do not make me look at graph paper)))))
                    I saw some of this. What’s the question?


                    I am not a humanist and therefore it is of no small interest to me, since disputes on this subject are not rare even now ..
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 3 February 2018 17: 56
                      0
                      Quote: NF68
                      A number of sources indicate power

                      I'm talking about 130/131
                      Quote: NF68
                      and because of this, the use of aircraft with these engines was very limited.

                      Yeah. But it was already clear that piston projects involving several years of refinement were not needed.
                      Quote: NF68
                      and therefore for me it is not of little interest

                      OK. So why did you recall this source?
                      1. NF68
                        NF68 3 February 2018 21: 01
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        But it was already clear that piston projects involving several years of refinement were not needed.


                        However, both in the USSR and in the USA and the BI continued to work on improving their piston-built fighters built at the end of WWII, and these aircraft took an active part not only in the war in Korea, but also in a number of other post-war conflicts.

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        So why did you recall this source?


                        There is a lot of detailed data on WWII fighters.
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 4 February 2018 01: 07
                        0
                        Quote: NF68
                        over the improvement of their piston-built fighters built at the end of WWII and these aircraft took an active part not only in the war in Korea

                        Are you talking about AU-1 Corsair)))?
                        Quote: NF68
                        There is a lot of detailed data on WWII fighters.

                        There is, of course.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 2 February 2018 07: 53
      0
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      Here, of course, I am cheating, comparing with experience

      Wright
  27. NF68
    NF68 4 February 2018 17: 01
    0
    Cherry nine,

    [quote] [/ quote] [quote = Cherry Nine] [quote = NF68] over improving their piston-built fighter planes built at the end of WWII and these aircraft took an active part not only in the war in Korea [/ quote]
    Are you talking about AU-1 Corsair)))?

    Not only about him. There are data and some prototypes that did not go with the series.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 4 February 2018 18: 31
      0
      Quote: NF68
      There are data and some prototypes that did not go into the series.

      Not much has gone. But only Corsair, Skyrider and B-29 took an active part, EMNIP
      1. NF68
        NF68 4 February 2018 22: 22
        0
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        Not much has gone. But only Corsair, Skyrider and B-29 took an active part, EMNIP


        If the war with Japan lasted or serious disagreements arose, many of these developments would go into series.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 5 February 2018 23: 01
          0
          Quote: NF68
          then many of these developments would go into series.

          It's hard to say what would go into the series. But, most likely, exactly what went - Birket, Skyrider, B-50, B-36, B-45, Shutingstar.
          1. NF68
            NF68 6 February 2018 22: 41
            0
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            It's hard to say what would go into the series. But, most likely, exactly what went - Birket, Skyrider, B-50, B-36, B-45, Shutingstar.


            Would continue the mass production of the P-51 N, or would start to produce the P-51 L, it is possible that they would produce the P-47 M
  28. Bask
    Bask 5 February 2018 09: 50
    0
    Cherry nine,
    I’m not a fan of Stalin. Well, why is it that if you say that Stalin built and created a mustachioe lover right away? I live in a city where this mustachioed built almost all the factories, and from scratch. ). And how do you forgive the 30s from the current events in Ukraine? If your opinion does not coincide with the guys in the paramilitary form, then they will beat me at best (see the last video Sharia how the journalist who conducted the survey was treated).
    You probably don’t know, but Yanukovych is just a protector of Kuchma. So the people of Ukraine decide something to no one else. Poroshenko, together with Yanukovych, created the “Party of Regions” and was with him the Minister of Foreign Affairs and not only. Do you think the people of Ukraine chose this miracle? Once again, the Ukrainian people do not need help either slow or fast. It just needs to be left alone and the State Department and Russia.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 5 February 2018 22: 51
      +1
      Quote: Bask
      I live in a city where this mustachioed built almost all the plants. Moreover, from scratch.

      Wow, what a fellow Comrade Stalin!
      1.
      Vanya (in the coachman armory). Dad! who built this road? Dad (in a coat on a red lining). Count Peter Andreevich Kleinmichel, darling!

      2. You see, liberals like me claim that a country is people. As a citizen of the country, the eastern part of which turned out to be with factories and Stalin, and the western part - without both of them, it will not be difficult to find out where you lived by the 39th year. How many people fled in one direction, how many in the other?
      Quote: Bask
      And how do you forgive the 30s from current events in Ukraine?

      The journalist ... was abducted at the Dnepr Hotel, in the center of Kiev. It happened on September 4 [2017]. Many people witnessed the incident. The girl was forced to get into the car. She was taken to the SBU office, where she was detained without the participation of a lawyer, without permission to call relatives. Officers used psychological pressure techniques. The journalist held out until the next morning

      Quote: Bask
      I am aware (hundreds of thousands of starvation deaths)

      B * t
      Colleague, I have always reacted negatively to the Russian media company for the dehumanization of Ukrainians, but you have found a good way to convince me.
      Quote: Bask
      You probably don’t know, but Yanukovych is just Kuchma’s protege.

      AND? Kuchma managed to pass him a chair?
      Quote: Bask
      He just needs to be left alone and the State Department and Russia.

      Do not wait.
      1. Bask
        Bask 6 February 2018 11: 03
        0
        Well, it’s clear that it’s not Stalin, but people. But the people didn’t decide where, what and how to build. So the Bolsheviks you hated brought equipment by hook or by crook. At the factory where I work the rolling mill of the 38th year, bought in the United States and gentlemen, the democrats did not bother to replace it with something more modern. It was simply that the people built and earned and scolded the USSR.
        I'm sorry, I didn’t understand about dehumanization. Do you think that I am punched and believe that Stalin did the right thing? First of all, doesn’t it seem to you that this is not entirely correct on your part? Moreover, you consider yourself a liberal who respects anyone opinion, whether it suits them or not. Secondly, I did not say that it was right to starve hundreds of thousands of people, but I just tried to explain the logic of the government at that time. And whether it is right or wrong, I should not judge. If you undertake to condemn, then please offer an alternative solution. Although would be in the format of our discussion.
        Yes, it was possible from the second time. Yes, Yanukovych won in the first election, but they muddied the "orange revolution" and seated Yushchenko. Another example for you is how the people of Ukraine choose. By the way, Yanukovych already showed his inability to take responsibility and make decisions.
        Oh, how! And where are your liberal views? Well, does everyone have the right to choose? I will not say anything about sovereignty.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 6 February 2018 19: 31
          0
          Quote: Bask
          Well, it’s clear that not Stalin, but people

          Straight path: narrow embankments,
          Columns, rails, bridges.
          And on the sides, all the bones are Russian ...
          How many of them! Vanya, do you know?

          Quote: Bask
          So the Bolsheviks you hated brought by hook or by crook equipment.

          To make tanks? Why tanks?
          Quote: Bask
          The rolling mill of the 38th year, bought in the USA, and gentlemen of the Democrats did not bother to replace it with something more modern.

          Charming.
          1. How many years have passed from the 38th year to the Democrats? Why didn’t the Soviet government change this camp?
          2. What do Democrats have to do with rolling mills? You, by the way, do not confuse democrats with the owner of the plant?
          Quote: Bask
          Moreover, you consider yourself a liberal who respects any opinion, whether it suits them or not. Secondly, I did not say that it was right to starve hundreds of thousands of people, but simply tried to explain the logic of the government at that time

          I understood your previous post so that you equate the problems of the "journalist" Sharia with garbage and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. Otherwise, the 30s somehow did not dance, like.
          Quote: Bask
          Yes, it was possible the second time. Yes, Yanukovych won in the first election, but they muddied the "orange revolution" and seated Yushchenko. Another example for you is how the people of Ukraine choose.

          Unfortunately, from the varieties of shit he chooses (for himself presidents), in my opinion. But the thesis that the presidents of Ukraine cannot appoint a successor, your example confirms, but does not refute.
          Quote: Bask
          Oh, how! And where are your liberal views? Well, does everyone have the right to choose? I will not say anything about sovereignty.

          Why can liberal views not be combined with realism? VladimirVladimich will not forget your country himself, and will not give it to others. So, privacy for Ukraine is not an issue of this five-year period.
          1. Bask
            Bask 6 February 2018 20: 00
            0
            Sorry for your claims about tanks, they look strange. There is such an expression- "You will not feed your army, you will feed someone else's." So tanks are needed.
            Yes, I agree with the 38th year, a lot of time passed. In the late 80s they began to build a converter shop, but the USSR collapsed and everything died out. Democrats are at least guilty of allowing God to forgive businessmen such as Akhmetov for privatizing pennies .
            I cited as an example not the problems of a journalist, but the fact that now in Ukraine, if you move away from the line of the "party", you are the enemy. You cannot have your own view of what is happening, and if you have the arrogance and speak out, they’ll put you in prison. Kotsaba’s example confirms this .
            On the contrary, I tried to tell you that Yushchenko was seated in a chair with the help of Western curators and that’s why Kuchma strongly recommended that Yanukovych give in. Yanukovych won the next election easily.
            It’s not Putin who started the coup, but gentlemen Western politicians. Biden has long been talking about how the Americans removed the legitimate president from power, how they removed the attorney general and put in a chair a misunderstanding that did not have a legal education and even sat. That’s why Russia intervened is the consequences of the coup .
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 7 February 2018 00: 40
              0
              Quote: Bask
              Sorry your claims about tanks look weird.

              What plants did the mill load products in the 40th year? What was it bought for? Instead of what he was bought, where did the money come from?

              The question of whether for good or for worse was that these mills were not imported to Lviv; you, as I understand it, are not ready to discuss.
              Quote: Bask
              Democrats are at least guilty of allowing God to forgive businessmen such as Akhmetov for privatizing the factories for a penny.

              Do you call thieves democrats because they said something about democracy?
              Quote: Bask
              what is now in Ukraine if you move away from the line of the "party" —you are an enemy. You cannot have your own view of what is happening, but if you have the audacity and speak out

              While you describe the usual modest rather garbage mess. We did not even get one shooting ditch. It seems to me that you do not see the difference between a state that poorly protects the rights of citizens and a state that pretty well and cheerfully destroys these citizens.

              Quote: Bask
              On the contrary, I tried to tell you that Yushchenko was seated in a chair with the help of Western curators and that’s why Kuchma strongly recommended that Yanukovych give in. Yanukovych won the next election easily.

              That is, neither Kuchma was able to transfer power to the sidekick, nor the curators were able to remove Yanuk two elections in a row. This is very similar to democracy.
              By the way. And how did Viktor Fedorovich easily win the election? Someone did not know something about him?
              Or did Julia just get everyone to this extent? Our Hillary, so to speak?

              Quote: Bask
              Biden has long been talking about how Americans removed the legitimate president from power,

              Sounds awesome. Do not share the link to the original text of Biden?
              1. Bask
                Bask 7 February 2018 09: 21
                0
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMdhhCz5dwQ ссылка на видео с Байденом.
                Regarding the plant. If you are hinting at trade with Germany, I don’t see anything terrible about it. I will repeat once again the plant was built on level ground and not instead of something. Lviv was Polish at that time. I recall the rolling mill was launched in the 38th .Yes, and all of Western Ukraine was not Soviet.
                And YOU want to say that a thief cannot be a democrat or pretend that he is a democrat. Not that I am describing to you not garbage lawlessness, but the policy of the current state against dissidents. Kotsaba spent a year and a half in a pre-trial detention center, only because he dared to call the war in Donbass-Civil and dared to urge people not to go to kill their compatriots. And in Donetsk and Lugansk this is the very state, what do you think? Let me remind you, on May 2, people were burned in Odessa, in June in Lugansk, the Su-25 fired at the city center with RSami 16 killed, more than 30 wounded. Thousands killed and wounded in four years. Well, how did they fill the ditch? Oh yes, I forgot about Buzin. If you do not know, then this is a Ukrainian journalist killed for his statements.
                Well, the struggle for power is such a thing, today you, and tomorrow you. The oligarchs pushing Yanukovych simply prepared better for the second election. Just ask yourself why Yanukovych was not allowed to sit for a year, although he just did not sign an association with the EU (by the way, which is not beneficial for Ukraine )? And Poroshenko did such a thing here and people are not happy with him (on February XNUMXth there was a meeting near his house which the Ukrainian media did not gu-gu), and he sits and rides in the Maldives and no maidan. DEMOCRACY !!!! Oh yes, I’m ready discuss any questions and even about Lviv. My relatives live in Lviv region, proud Mukachevo. Lovely people and oddly enough they like Putin.
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 8 February 2018 01: 29
                  0
                  Quote: Bask
                  Biden has long been talking about how Americans removed the legitimate president from power,
                  Sounds awesome. Do not share the link to the original text of Biden?

                  Quote: Bask
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMdhhCz5dwQ

                  This is a link to Sharia video, sorry. I am not interested in either his translation or his comments.
                  Actually Biden.

                  Specifically this story at 51.45

                  Firstly. Mr. Shokin, whom Biden is talking about, has never been a "legitimate president," someone has tricked you. Try, nevertheless, to give evidence in your own words.

                  Secondly, it seems to me that a person who is not indifferent to Ukraine would be annoyed that the removal of Mr. Shokin required Biden’s intervention. The sovereignty that you mentioned is not such a good thing if such prosecutors are started from it.
                  Quote: Bask
                  If you are hinting at trade with Germany

                  No, I don’t give a damn who traded with whom there. I ask, where does the money come from? What did you sell to buy this mill for dollars? What bought it instead?
                  Quote: Bask
                  Lviv at that time was Polish. I recall the rolling mill was launched in the 38th. Yes, and all of Western Ukraine was not Soviet.

                  Exactly. Accordingly, living in Ukraine, you can compare how things were going under the Soviet regime and without it, no?
                  Quote: Bask
                  And YOU want to say that a thief cannot be a democrat or pretend that he is a democrat

                  I want to say that if a student of the faculty of computer science and control systems killed and raped her neighbor (in that order), it would be strange to boil righteous anger about a group of people “programmers” if your claims relate to the categories of “killer” and “necrophilia” "
                  Accordingly, your claims for privatization are formulated at the wrong address. What the thief does besides theft (especially since he speaks in public) is absolutely not important.
                  Quote: Bask
                  No, what I am describing to you is not garbage lawlessness, but the policy of the current state against dissidents

                  No. Politics looks a little different. Unfortunately, in Russia there is something to compare.
                  Quote: Bask
                  Kotsaba served a year and a half in jail, only for

                  Kotsaba received 3,5, but after 1,5 years he was acquitted. In today's Russia, this is impossible to imagine. I mean, an excuse, of course.
                  Well, in your beloved 30th Mr. Kotsaba, and with him another 500 people at least, would not have been acquitted, but rehabilitated. Posthumously.
                  Quote: Bask
                  But in Donetsk and Lugansk this is the state itself, what do you think is doing?

                  In Donetsk and Lugansk does not it state.
                  By the way, about the civil war. Where is Mr. Plotnitsky, the leader of the Lugansk Reconquista, now located and what is he doing? And so as not to get up twice, where did he come from, this David Ben-Gurion?
                  Quote: Bask
                  Let me remind you that on May 2, people were burned in Odessa

                  Favorite argument of Russian zaputintsev-novorossov. “What, would you like to burn people like in Odessa?”
                  In Odessa, 42 (forty-two) people were burned, another 6 died in a clash on Grecheskaya. In the Donbass, about 10 thousand killed and about 2 million refugees, if I'm not mistaken.
                  Quote: Bask
                  Oh yes, I forgot about Buzin. If you do not know, then this is a Ukrainian journalist killed for his statements.

                  Again, not particularly impressed, I do not live in Switzerland. Does it pull to the 30s?
                  Killed by whom, by the way?
                  Quote: Bask
                  Just ask yourself why Yanukovych was not allowed to sit for a year

                  What for? You have already answered.
                  Quote: Bask
                  the struggle for power is such a thing, today you, and tomorrow you.

                  It is believed that Mr. Yanukovych was a little too greedy. For a Ukrainian politician, this is not easy, but Yanuk succeeded.
                  Quote: Bask
                  and he sits and rides in the Maldives and no Maidan. DEMOCRACY !!!

                  Mr. Poroshenko’s situation is rather precarious, as far as I can judge from the same Biden. It is unlikely that he will sit a second term.
                  Quote: Bask
                  oddly enough they like Putin.

                  It happens, even in Russia.
                  1. Bask
                    Bask 8 February 2018 10: 39
                    0
                    Why didn’t Shariy please you? If he says something that you don’t like, it doesn’t mean that he’s wrong. I know that Shokin is not the most honest prosecutor, but this does not give Americans the right to stick their nose into our affairs. But this is our sovereignty and our country, and there is nothing for Russia or America to do here. Well, let's wait a bit and the Americans themselves will admit, as it has been more than once, that they stuck their nose here.
                    There are a lot of opinions about Soviet Ukraine and Poland. There are pros and cons. And you can choose which ones you like. You bought equipment for grain and gold, because of this hunger, but I already asked you what would you do instead "but you somehow passed by.
                    Regarding the Democrats, I accuse them of having committed a mess and the merger of crime with the authorities (which began in the 70s, but the Democrats continued this, but did not stop it).
                    No, this is politics. Kotsaba is an example for you, but you go around and stress that he is not shot. Forgetting that it is the Ukrainian authorities who are accused of illegal detentions. Even the Western media admit that illegally detained people accused of separatism. I personally saw people at the rally thrown into jails, but not pro-Ukrainian. Once again, I repeat, I belong to the Bolsheviks and Democrats. Read books with an excellent opinion in which you write about the fact that not everyone was shot under Stalin and moreover not all they planted it. But if you read only Solzhenitsyn, then they shot everyone without exception. Well, of course, this does not negate the fact that there were illegal arrests and executions.
                    I’m neither Putin nor Novoross, I’m Russian who was born in Ukraine. You want to say that these sports guys came to Odessa for free, they’re pure patriots. Even if that’s the case. Why hasn’t anyone been punished and is not sitting for what he’s did. No need to blame it on your health. The Ukrainian authorities sent an army to the Donbass, and here Russia. That is, you say that I repeat the words of the Russian media, but from your words draws the statements of the Western and Ukrainian authorities (we are at war with Russia , Russia is the enemy, Putin la-la).
                    And how did I answer about Yanukovych? Please explain! We are in power, starting with Kravchuk and ending with the last deputy, everyone is greedy. I don’t see Poroshenko’s precariousness, he already rolled his lip for a second term. Please answer the question: Why did you do it a hundred times worse for four years, Poroshenko did not receive the Maidan. Moreover, people are extremely unhappy with him. By the way, I agree that this is not the 30s, it is a hundred times worse and more sophisticated. The Ukrainian government manages a bunch of stubborn kovs and bandits who consider themselves entitled to indicate how to live differently. Regarding the Donbass, you blamed Russia, specifically Putin, but you somehow missed the shelling of Lugansk (I want to believe that this is not because Putin came here well I don’t attach it at all). I don’t give a damn about Zakharchenko and Plotnitsky, personally I think they are no better than Poroshenko. They also earn on blood.
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 9 February 2018 00: 07
                      0
                      Quote: Bask
                      And what did Shariy not please you? If he says something you don’t like, it doesn’t mean that he’s wrong

                      I found out about Mr. Sharia a couple of days ago from you. I am absolutely sure that he is not, and I have never been Vice President of the United States. His jokes about who is bending whom are absolutely not interesting to me.
                      Quote: Bask
                      that Shokin is the prosecutor general and far from the most honest

                      If Shokin is a thief, then what's wrong that at least Biden could remove him?
                      Quote: Bask
                      this does not give Americans the right to poke their nose into our affairs

                      This is drop dead. It, in fact, was about guarantees for a billion bucks, if I understood correctly. Not enough for what Ukrainian thief is willing to give so much. Milosevic, I recall, for that kind of money, not just dismissed, but handed over to The Hague.
                      Quote: Bask
                      let's wait a bit and the Americans themselves admit, as it has been more than once, that they stuck their nose here.

                      That is, Biden did not say anything about the removal of legitimate presidents from power, did I understand you correctly?
                      Quote: Bask
                      There are a lot of opinions about Soviet Ukraine and Polish

                      What does the "opinion" have to do with it? What numbers are there?
                      Quote: Bask
                      They bought equipment for grain and gold, and therefore hunger,

                      That is, for your camp was paid literally human lives?
                      And what benefit did he bring? To whom?
                      Quote: Bask
                      but I already asked you what would you do on the spot

                      Do you suggest me write an alternative history of the USSR?
                      I already wrote to you that you yourself can compare the same country at the same time, with and without Stalin.
                      Quote: Bask
                      I accuse them of having committed a mess and the merger of crime with the government (which began in the 70s, but the Democrats continued this, not stopped).

                      From this phrase, I conclude that the merger of crime and power was carried out by people who until the 90th year called themselves communists, and after that - democrats. And all this time they were bandits.
                      Your problem has nothing to do with democracy. Democracy, I repeat, is just a transit mechanism for power.
                      Quote: Bask
                      Kotsaba is an example for you, but you bypass

                      From what. Kotsaba, as I understand it, was acquitted by a Ukrainian court. Consequently, unlawful acts took place against him. You may ask (SUDDENLY, at Shokin), what is there at Ivano-Frankivsk SBU for relations with the First Amendment. But there is no system of state terror. When it is, the court of the enemies of the State does not justify.
                      Quote: Bask
                      Even the Western media admit that illegally detained people accused of separatism are sitting in Ukraine. I personally saw people at the rally thrown into jails, but not pro-Ukrainian. Once again, I repeat, I belong to the Bolsheviks and Democrats

                      I have no doubt for a minute. In poorly functioning states, the rights of citizens are not protected, both political and economic.
                      Quote: Bask
                      books with excellent opinion in which you write about the fact that under Stalin, too, not everyone was shot and moreover not all were planted.

                      I am briefly familiar.
                      How many people were executed / extrajudicially executed in Ukraine in 2013? (any other, if you don’t drag the victims into ORDLO).
                      How many people were executed, I don’t know, in the 39th, with your camp?
                      Quote: Bask
                      not everyone was shot

                      However, the wording.
                      Quote: Bask
                      Well, of course, this does not negate the fact that there were illegal arrests and executions.

                      They were legal, this is the point.
                      Quote: Bask
                      You want to say that these sports guys came to Odessa for free, purely patriots.

                      No I do not want to. In general, no idea what happened there. I look purely at the numbers.
                      Quote: Bask
                      Why so far no one has been punished and is not sitting for what he did.

                      Why is Shokin not sitting? Akhmetov? Julia? Why then should these sit with molotov?
                      Quote: Bask
                      The Ukrainian government sent an army to the Donbass, and here Russia.

                      How many Ukrainian citizens were killed in 2014-2017 in Donetsk and Lugansk?
                      How many Ukrainian citizens were killed in 2014-2017 in Kharkov and the Dnieper?
                      What is the difference between these cities?
                      Quote: Bask
                      And how did I respond about Yanukovych?

                      Quote: Bask
                      Well, the struggle for power is such a thing, today you, and tomorrow you

                      The people whom Mr. Yanukovych pinched felt that there was a convenient moment and there was nothing to wait for the weather by the sea. These were both "heroes of the Maidan" with "heavenly hundred", and less public characters.
                      Quote: Bask
                      I don’t see the precariousness of Poroshenko, he already rolled his lip for a second term

                      And what will M. Pence say about this?
                      I gave you a link to Biden's speech. Among other things, he says that the first reason for the slipping of any processes related to Ukraine, including according to the Ordlo, is corruption in Kiev. It is quite possible to believe.
                      Quote: Bask
                      Why having done a hundred times worse in four years, Poroshenko did not receive Maidan

                      Perhaps people who are less public, but more influential, he does not particularly hurt. TV channels are fighting with him? Are there serious forces in the Rada that set their task to remove it?
                      Quote: Bask
                      30s, it's a hundred times worse and more sophisticated

                      Again. Worse for whom?
                      Quote: Bask
                      but about the shelling of Lugansk somehow missed

                      Who cares?
                      I have no doubt for one minute that the Armed Forces of Ukraine, and even more so the good-natured ones, are fighting no more accurately than the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation in Chechnya. Yes, they killed the peacekeeper too.
                      And who brought the war to this land? It seems to be known for sure, no?
                      Quote: Bask
                      I do not care about Zakharchenko and Plotnitsky, personally I think they are no better than Poroshenko. They also earn on blood.

                      Sorry? How do they earn? Who pays them and for what?
                      Again. Where did Mr. Plotnitsky come from and where did he go? This, it seems to me, is important for revealing the topic of the civil war.
                      1. Bask
                        Bask 11 February 2018 14: 49
                        0
                        That's it, Biden and his ilk think that if they pay then they dance us. Here's a comparison with the mustachioed. Take the money and that's it, Britain and France are masters. You can’t write an alternative story, I'm more than sure You won’t think up (no offense will be said). But is it not useful that factories grow up on a bare spot and people were provided with work. In factories built by a "mustachioed", before the collapse, people received pretty good salaries, got apartments (free). Now, under the Democrats, almost all plants are standing, people are without work. So to whom and when m was better?
                        Shokin is not sitting precisely because there is not any evidence of his crimes, all his fault is that he was the prosecutor general under Yanukovych. By the way, the current prosecutor general does not even have a legal education and, moreover, he already sat for theft as Minister of the Interior. But he suits curators from Europe and the USA. Akhmetov? Well then, it was necessary to plant both Poroshenko and Kolomoisky, but they could not put themselves on their own. Julia sat, but she was declared a victim of the regime and released.
                        They say Biden’s memoirs came out in which he clearly recognizes US interference in the internal affairs of Ukraine, I hope these letters will be translated into Russian and I will definitely read them. Strange you, indirectly recognizing the intervention of Western curators, talk about some kind of freedom of choice.
                        Please do not press on the numbers. I did not conduct a poll and never wondered where people felt better, in Poland or in Soviet Ukraine. But the books on the company in Poland on the 39th clearly indicate that the Polish prisoners asked for an increase in the convoy, so - how did the attacks on the columns of prisoners of war by Ukrainian peasants take place. Are they really from a good life?
                        Living away from these events, you, however, like many Western representatives do not see state terror. How many have been killed and are sitting in the period you have indicated, now no one will say. By the most conservative estimates, these are thousands of SBU detained and not legally held, how many of them It’s not known that they are dead. I am sure that during the times of Stalin’s terror no one voiced the numbers of the victims either. But sooner or later everything will come out.
                        The shelling of Lugansk did not take place at the time of the hostilities. So your comparisons about random shelling were off topic. Slavyansk started firing artillery when Strelkov settled there and why no one knows. The buildings were seized, surround them with the National Guard and storm the special forces. Why the city equal to the land? The collection of kindlings who legally looted and killed. Is this not a terror of the state? Yes worse than the 30s, for us ordinary Ukrainians who were driven into debt for decades. Do you know how much Ukrainians pay for gas and electricity (when thu we have four nuclear power plants), and what is their salary. Regarding Odessa. What are the numbers here? I asked you straightforwardly, with what fright these "patriots" came to the city and started a massacre. You want to say that no one was in charge of them and no one paid them, and they purely from patriotic feelings jumped up and began to kill. You’re famously twisting. this is not genocide (the adoption of the law on the Russian language, which by the way speaks 80% of residents with Trany), not terror (civil war, attacks on television channels and dissidents).
                        Zakharchenko, according to visitors from the Donetsk region, is called the “chicken king.” His wife, not without the help of the leader of the DPR, squeezed out the local poultry farm. Yes, and so they pinch a little. Plotnitsky came from Russia, but you forget that the civil war is a consequence of the Maidan. I clearly remember people in the Donbass and the whole Southeast demanded federalization and the status of the Russian language as the second state language. But after hearing some, the second was declared separatists and began to kill.