Military Review

"They drew ... murder!"

111
How can one investigate the past if, in essence, it simply does not exist? We can’t remember what we ate for breakfast a year ago, but ... if all this was recorded and photographed, then the smallest details of this breakfast will immediately come to life before our eyes. That is, it is obvious that ancient illustrated books, manuscripts containing many miniatures on their pages are wonderful historical a source.


Fortunately for us, thousands of books of this kind have reached our time, and tens of thousands of beautifully made miniatures in them allow us to look into the past with our own eyes. Unfortunately, even in the recent past it was not possible to redraw and photograph all of them. Today, it is possible to digitize many previously unknown incunabula and introduce them into scientific use, compare the images placed in them, determine the time, place of their writing and even the “master's hand”.

But even a purely visual acquaintance with the medieval miniature allows you to quite clearly imagine, say, the same genesis of knightly weapons and even get to know it in detail, which is important especially for the most ancient specimens, artifacts that have not survived. There were already materials on the pages of the VO that, using examples of medieval miniatures from such famous manuscripts as the Bible of Matsiyevsky and the Psalter of Luttrell, told about this. But in relation to a specific time, the time of their writing.

Today we will “go through time”, considering one historical event through how it was reflected in miniatures from books written in different years. That is, it will be a kind of photo chronicle of history. Well, the event in question is the assassination of Thomas Becket, Archbishop of Canterbury.

First, a little about him. The murder of Thomas Becket took place during the reign of King Henry II Plantagenet - December 29 1170. It is known that Thomas Becket himself came from a noble Saxon family and received an excellent education at that time. Being close to the court, he ... became friends with King Henry and at first supported him in all his endeavors and feasted with him. Even the bishop of Canterbury, he became contrary to the opinion of many prelates, and only by the will of the king, who saw him as his ally. However, on the issue of reorganizing the church, they disagreed. Beckett turned out to be a zealous supporter of church traditions, while Heinrich strongly defended his reforms. So much so that Becket had to leave England and live abroad. The pope intervened in the confrontation between the king and the archbishop, threatening the king with imposing an interdict on England. Heinrich could not resist the Pope, but Becket, who had returned from the continent by this time, also did not want to compromise on principles.

When Henry II was told at a feast in honor of Christmas that Becket did not want to be reconciled, the king was terribly angry and said something like: "Is there really no brave people in my kingdom who will save me from this traitor!" Historians are still arguing whether what he said was due to a state of affect, or whether he was directly ordered to kill the archbishop, but there is no more precise information about this. In any case, there were four knights who came to worship in Canterbury Abbey, demanded Becket to get out of the kingdom, and when he refused, they hacked him with their swords right at the altar in front of his flock!

Henry II severely punished the killers of the prelate. However, even this did not save him from papal rage and universal condemnation. He brought public repentance, promised to send soldiers on a crusade and submit to the church. In July, 1174, in Canterbury Abbey, the king had to go through the line of monks whipping him, and then spend the whole night at Becket’s grave. It is believed that the king himself did not forgive himself for the death of this man, whom, despite the difference in views, he loved and respected.

Needless to say that the “crime of the century”, and the assassination of the archbishop in the cathedral could not be called at that time, caused a lot of his descriptions to live, entered the chronicles not only of England, but also of neighboring countries, in one word became an important spiritual topic life of the Middle Ages. And of course, it was reflected not only in the texts, but also the miniatures accompanying them. And since they are all dated, thanks to this we get a real “picturesque sketch” of this event. So:

"They drew ... murder!"

The first miniature depicting the scene of the assassination of Thomas Becket, we see in the Fisciana Psalter (Amiens State Library), dated 1170-1185, that is, written and illustrated right "hot on the heels" of this event. On it we see warriors in the generation of chain mail, dome-shaped helmets with nose pads and almond-shaped shields in their hands. The images on the two shields can be interpreted as stamped. From under the chain mail you can see the legs in the races and the long-sex sub-white clothes of white color.


On the 1180 miniature from the manuscript by Kladius B. “Becket’s Life” (British Library), we see almost the same thing: a similar cut of chain mail and shields, although the two shields are depicted oval. There are no armor on their feet, even the simplest ones.


Perhaps the most famous miniature depicting the scene of the murder of Thomas Becket, the end of the XII century. (British Library). Fitz-Urs knight (you can recognize him by the coat of arms depicting a bear) has the very first mail armor in the form of a band with ties on his calves. For the first time, their image appeared on the “Bayesian canvas” of 1066, and only by the end of the 12th century. we see them again, almost unchanged. The helmet of the first knight is of the “tablet” type (or “helmet pan”), painted in green. It is not clear that this is for his strip passing through his chin, because if it is made of metal, then such a helmet can not be put on his head!


Huntingfield Psalter 1212-1220 from the Morgan Library in Oxford. On it we see warriors dressed in chain mail from head to toe. The mouth is closed by a flap valve. Thus, before us are typical warriors of the "era of chain mail" - no external differences, one solid metal that fits the figure!


England, 1250, Psalter Carrow, Walters Art Museum. It took only 30 years, and we see the changes that have occurred. The mail armor itself remained the same, but the fully-fitted tophelm helmet and padded surcoas appeared. On the shield is clearly depicted coat of arms.


The Murder of Thomas Becket, fresco from the Museum of Diosezano, Palazzo de Trescento, Treviso, Italy, 1260. On it we see typical warriors of this era in mail armor, masked tablets and helmets with a curved tip.


Illustration of the Bible, 1250-1299, British Library. Here we see everything the same as in the previous miniature, except that arms killers added felchen, which is used even by noble knights, approximate to the king.


A repetition of the previous picture in the miniature from the Psalms of Ramsey 1300-1310. Morgan Library in Oxford. Again, we see a surco, felchen (a few strange outlines, really) and swords with very large crosshairs. Surko have cuts on the sides. The first warrior from under the chain mail can see a piece of the kneecap.


Miniature from the Lives of Saints 1300-1325 France (National Library, Paris). Approximately the same epoch as in the previous miniature, but on the heads of the warriors the first helmets are bascinetts of a globular shape, and on the legs there are plates covering the lower leg in front. The shield is obviously heraldic, but somehow round!


"List of Preachers" 1323-1326's. National Library of France. Here we already see the armor of the era of mixed mail-plate-plate armor, closed helmets with visor, plate gloves, armor for legs and hands, for some reason, again, armorial round shields and immediately a huge iron-covered shield with an umbron. That is, looking at this miniature, we see that E. Okshott had every reason to single out the beginning of this epoch as referring to this particular time.


The famous "Psalms of Lattrell", 1320-1340. British Library. There is a lot of gilding, a shield in the form of an iron and finally we see on the knight’s shoulders ailets, the image of which repeats the image of the coat of arms on his shield. But as for the terrible species, then if we analyze a sufficiently large number of miniatures, we can conclude that this is a typical "weapon of the villains." In reality, nothing of the kind existed, but in portraying him like this, the artist seemed to emphasize the completely villainous nature of its owner and the one committed. And the felcen is no more fantastic than, the more vile the characters are usually depicted in miniature!


"Lives of the Saints", 1325-1350 National Library of France, Paris. Here, for some reason, there are only three knight-murderers, although it is known that there were four of them, and everyone is dressed according to this particular era. Surcoat, greaves, knight belts, traditional-shaped shields and islets. On the far left is the “iron hat” worn over the bascinet, on the middle - tophelm, on the far right is the simplest bascinet descending on the ears. The shape of the swords has clearly changed, right?


The Big Chronicle of France, 1375-1380 Screensaver National Library of France, Paris.


Finally, an alabaster panel weighing in 6 kg 1450-1500's. The scene is the same, but the armor corresponds exactly to its time, and not 1170 to the year !!!

Conclusion: the miniaturists of the Middle Ages did not possess historical thinking and believed that the life around them was unchanged. Therefore, they photographically accurately reflected in miniatures their time, but not the characteristic features of past eras. This circumstance is important for the dating of certain historical manuscripts ... although, yes, of course, it is quite possible to assume that these miniatures are just a fake (like the books they are in!), Commissioned by the Vatican, the Jesuits , Freemasons and Illuminati of Western countries, once again to stupefy-to think over the advanced Russian superethnos and to instill in it ideas about its own inferiority. After all, in fact, Thomas Becket - this is none other than Thomas Slav (he was even called Thomas, who does not know this ?!), who fled to England after the defeat of his revolt against Byzantium (Becket ", But the" lec "was lost, and the" g "was re-assigned to" k ", and the" em "was added!), And there killed by the orders of the Jewish banking elite! There, however, there is a time difference, but who confuses such a trifle now ?!
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  1. Theodore
    Theodore 23 January 2018 06: 42
    +3
    And how did we live this without knowing!?
    1. kalibr
      23 January 2018 07: 02
      +4
      Really - how?
  2. Olgovich
    Olgovich 23 January 2018 06: 54
    +5
    Conclusion: the miniaturists of the Middle Ages did not possess historical thinking and believed that their life was unchanged. Therefore, they photographically accurately reflected in miniatures their time, but not the characteristic features of past eras.

    It is not surprising, for they were demanded not of the authenticity of the clothes, but of the authenticity of the essence of the event. And this is observed.
    1. viktor_ui
      viktor_ui 23 January 2018 09: 01
      +7
      And the non-current “MALEVICHI” can then legally be painted in body armor made of “dragon skin”, wetting an old man from a bazooka, a minigun, a Kalash with body kits + the rest controls a UAV ... it’s important that the holy old man is soaked up with the final and authenticity of the essence the events were a priori observed .... FIRE wassat
  3. inkass_98
    inkass_98 23 January 2018 07: 34
    12
    Well, without the theory of conspiracies nowhere, even to the historical miniature it must be added.
    And the fact that medieval artists reflected historical events through the prism of their perceptions of current reality is an open secret. You might think that depicting a scene with the gifts of the Magi, they will exactly adhere to the image of costumes and household items of the era of Roman rule in Judea. Yes, they had no idea about those realities.
    By the way, you don’t have to go far, you can turn to the Japanese miniature of the first half - the middle of the 19 century. Remember the images of Perry made by the Japanese as a result of his embassy mission - is there much from European realities? Continuous adaptation to the current Japanese worldview.
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 23 January 2018 23: 50
      +1
      he certainly doesn’t look like a Japanese and an Asian either. Some kind of wino)
      Well, artists should have correctly reflected their era or not?
  4. tasha
    tasha 23 January 2018 07: 49
    +4
    Pay attention to the second left warrior in the upper row of the alabaster panel ... wink
    1. kalibr
      23 January 2018 08: 13
      0
      And you think where did the plot of the film "Doctor Who?" Not only does he live through time and space ...
  5. polpot
    polpot 23 January 2018 08: 06
    +1
    There have always been political killings; we have killed Andrei Bogolyubsky and there are also icons on this subject
  6. XII Legion
    XII Legion 23 January 2018 08: 42
    17
    miniature painters of the Middle Ages did not possess historical thinking and believed that the life around them was unchanged

    Not only did they not possess historical thinking, the strength of tradition was just great, and scientific and technological progress in the Middle Ages seemed to freeze in many positions on the spot. On the other hand, knowledge of such an addiction to miniaturists helps attributed relevant materials.
  7. Korsar4
    Korsar4 23 January 2018 09: 11
    +2
    All right.

    "What is the use of books if they have neither pictures nor conversations?" (with).
  8. Curious
    Curious 23 January 2018 09: 57
    +7
    A few additions about the "protagonist" of the article.
    "Being close to the court, he ... made friends with King Henry and at first supported him in all his endeavors and feasted with him. "
    In addition to the duties of the royal drinking companion, Becket also ruled the state, since he was Chancellor of England, that is, the highest dignitary of the state.
    He put in order the royal court, contributed to the centralization of royal power, pacified the willfulness of the feudal lords. He personally received foreign ambassadors, he himself led a diplomatic mission to Paris in 1158, where he secured the marriage of Henry II to the daughter of the French king Louis VII.
    Considering that from August 1158, Henry II constantly lived in his possessions in Normandy, Becket practically "performed the royal duties."
    "The pope intervened in the confrontation between the king and the archbishop, threatening the king with the imposition of an interdict on England."
    The imposition of anathema and interdict against Henry II was demanded by Becket. But Alexander III himself at that time was in a difficult position, he was forced to flee Italy under the pressure of the emperor Frederick Barbarossa and his antipope protege, and did not want to quarrel with Henry II either.
    1. Curious
      Curious 23 January 2018 10: 18
      +6
      "Henry II severely punished the murderers of the prelate."
      The killers were punished by the pope. They fled to North Yorkshire, to Knaresboro Castle, where they hid for about a year. Dad excommunicated them from the church. Seeking forgiveness, the killers arrived in Rome. To atone for sin, they were sent to the Holy Land for fourteen years. There is no return data in history.
    2. Luga
      Luga 23 January 2018 10: 53
      +4
      Quote: Curious
      He personally received foreign ambassadors, he himself led the diplomatic mission to Paris in the 1158 year, where he achieved the marriage of Henry II with the daughter of the French king Louis VII.

      Henry was married to Eleanor (Alienore) of Aquitaine. But she was not the daughter of the French king Louis VII, she was his ex-wife. As far as I remember, Eleanor allowed herself to have fun on the side, which Louis could not endure and divorced her, and Henry married a walking reconnaissance, locked her in a tower under guard and periodically visited, resulting in the appearance of numerous children of Henry, including Richard Lionheart and John Landless. And the Duchy of Aquitaine, which Louis refused, divorcing Eleanor, passed into the possession of Hengrich.
      1. Antares
        Antares 23 January 2018 12: 15
        +3
        Quote: Luga
        As far as i remember eleanor

        Oh ... this woman deserves a separate article and attention.
        Alienora was the wife of two kings - first the king of France Louis VII, and then the king of England Henry II Plantagenet, the mother of two English kings - Richard I the Lionheart and John Landless.

        In 1151, they (the king of France) had a second daughter. However, the next year, on March 21, they divorced, the formal reason for the divorce was announced that they were in a distant relationship. The daughters stayed with the king; Alienora retained all of her lands in Aquitaine, despite the fact that everyone knew before the wedding. And this despite the fact that all the royal courts are related (take the same Spain and France - regularly exchanged representatives) This is a formal pretext! Alienora was hardly more lecherous (and she was beautiful) than the king himself (oh, these Frenchmen). But the wild British cut off some of their heads or divorced the Spaniards. laughing
        Among historians, Alienor of Aquitaine is often called the grandmother of medieval Europe.
      2. Curious
        Curious 23 January 2018 12: 43
        +4
        Yes, I agree. Did not check the text. Nevertheless, working from the panel does not allow giving full comments, although this does not justify a gross error.
        As for the walking reconnaissance prisoner in the tower, then ut is somewhat different.
        According to the French historian Jean Flory, the increased dissemination of information about the wild life of Eleanor is an example of the fact that information weapons were used even then. Thus, the Capetings tried to discredit the Plantagenets. The feud between the Capetians and the Plantagenets over Eleanor’s second marriage has gained new momentum.
        And in captivity for 15 years, Eleanor spent for organizing a rebellion of sons against her father, and even with the support of her first husband. Therefore, from 1174 to 1189, she was detained in Windsor, but in comfortable conditions.
        In short, a very eventful life. You can write an article about her.
        1. Luga
          Luga 23 January 2018 13: 19
          +3
          Quote: Curious
          As for the walking reconnaissance prisoner in the tower, then ut is somewhat different.

          Quite possible. I am also not an expert on this period of history. Once I came across on a videotape the film “Lion in Winter” with Anthony Hopkins, Peter O'Toole and others, I liked it, I was interested. Of all the characters at that time, I knew only Richard and John, the future kings, and then only from the novels of W. Scott smile There was no Internet then, in any case, I don’t have libraries, so I scooped up information wherever I needed, I didn’t have to select sources ... I was not particularly interested in this period. request so I won’t argue.
          Quote: Curious
          In short, a very eventful life. You can write an article about her.

          I have a classmate, a creative person, was going to write a play about her. Already invented the name, such an original - "Eleanor of Aquitaine." smile I gave him the same cassette with the film “Lion in Winter”, he looked and refused my intention. He said that there is nothing more to write on this topic. smile
          1. Curious
            Curious 23 January 2018 14: 04
            +4
            Well with the play, of course, it’s difficult. Here I would have to compete with Goldman, Feuchtwanger, Dumont and at least a dozen authors of literary works about this woman. Plus a few films. So your classmate soberly assessed his strength.
  9. rus_ak_93
    rus_ak_93 23 January 2018 10: 58
    +3
    Quote: tasha
    Pay attention to the second left warrior in the upper row of the alabaster panel ... wink

    Really SAM?
    1. BAI
      BAI 23 January 2018 11: 57
      +3
      This is what has been going on since. We thought that everything is much simpler:
      1. Mikado
        Mikado 23 January 2018 14: 54
        +5
        1941 let even at least in 1943 correct. Shoulder straps, shoulder straps! wink hi
        1. cazac
          cazac 23 January 2018 16: 13
          +3
          And the order of the Great Patriotic War (Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR "On the establishment of the Order of the Patriotic War of the I and II degrees" of May 20, 1942.)
  10. Luga
    Luga 23 January 2018 11: 41
    +5
    Conclusion: the miniaturists of the Middle Ages did not possess historical thinking and believed that their life was unchanged. Therefore, they photographically accurately reflected in miniatures their time, but not the characteristic features of past eras.


    Thus, extrapolating the findings to Russian miniaturists and icon painters, we get ... wow! We get that their work can be a source of information only about THEIR time, and not about the time that they tried to illustrate. That is, it cannot be considered reliably established that Svyatoslav Igorevich wore armor of the XV-XVI centuries? And the Mongols could really have an East Asian appearance ?! The world will not be the same for me. wassat
    But seriously, I strongly agree with the author’s conclusions. I will say more, until recently, this statement seemed so obvious to me that, as an axiom, it did not require proof for me. However, lately I realized that, among other things, there is already a need to prove that the foliage is green, that the Earth revolves around the sun and that the artists are not historians and the monks are not military.
    1. kalibr
      23 January 2018 12: 53
      +5
      I also thought so, like you. But ... it is necessary, alas, to prove the obvious.
    2. cazac
      cazac 23 January 2018 16: 08
      0
      But what about the Shaulin monks - even very military ones.
    3. co-creator
      co-creator 23 January 2018 23: 56
      +1
      Quote: Luga
      And the Mongols could really have an East Asian appearance ?! The world will not be the same for me.

      That is, icon painters did not know what Asians or Turks look like?
      1. Luga
        Luga 24 January 2018 17: 04
        +2
        "Türks" are also Asians, this is first.
        Icon painters did not know such words at all - "Türks" and "Asians". This is the second.
        Thirdly, icon painters of the 16th - 17th centuries they really couldn’t imagine what the Mongols, Polovtsy, Bulgars and other peoples who were neighbors of Rus looked like half a millennium before them. And if you think that you represented, then please explain to anyone who could tell them about it.
        In general, it became interesting to me - is your brain capable of producing anything other than superficial judgments and remarks that seem to you probably witty and sarcastic? Anything that would demonstrate your erudition, knowledge, ability to think constructively, and not the substance that you are trying hard to throw at various fans?
        1. co-creator
          co-creator 24 January 2018 18: 55
          +1
          Quote: Luga
          Türks "are also Asians, this is first.

          Yes, you discovered America.
          Quote: Luga
          Icon painters did not know such words at all - "Türks" and "Asians". This is the second.

          Well, you know those words. You probably know that there are Turks Europioids, and there are Mongoloids (easier Asians).
          Quote: Luga
          Thirdly, icon painters of the XNUMXth - XNUMXth centuries they really couldn’t imagine what the Mongols, Polovtsy, Bulgars and other peoples who were neighbors of Rus looked like half a millennium before them.

          You are a nice man drunk. Bulgars, or, as in modern Kazan, the Tatars, as well as the muzzle, Cheremis, Bashkirs, were neighbors of the Russians. Maybe you don’t know how drunk your neighbors on the landing look, and the Russians in the 16-17th century not only saw them, but settled in the Moscow state.
          Quote: Luga
          And if you think that you represented, then please explain to anyone who could tell them about it.

          Really, who could tell them? Hmmm .. Elder brothers the monks whom their older brothers told, no?
          Quote: Luga
          is your brain capable of producing anything other than superficial judgments and remarks that seem to you probably witty and sarcastic?

          I suspect so after that I can safely on "you"
          1. Luga
            Luga 24 January 2018 21: 36
            0
            Quotation: blooded man
            I suspect so after that I can safely on "you"

            I prefer the "you", but if you want to demonstrate your cultural level in this way - your right. laughing
            Quotation: blooded man
            there are Turks europioids, and there are Mongoloids (easier Asians).

            But there are not Mongolians Türks, and Asians are not Mongoloids.
            what do Asians or Turks look like
            "What fish or herring look like." laughing
            Quotation: blooded man
            Bulgars or as in modern Kazan Tatars

            Is it really one people? And look the same? And the same language? Draw a Tatar now - get a Bulgarian?
            Quotation: blooded man
            as well as the muzzle, Cheremis, Bashkirs were neighbors of Russians
            And the Polovtsy were both Pechenegs and Khazars ... until the 13th century. And they are all “Turks”. Do you think there is no difference? Depict Tatar of the 16th century - will there be a Polovtsian of the 13th century? No difference? fool
            Quotation: blooded man
            Really, who could tell them? Hmmm .. Elder brothers the monks whom their older brothers told, no?

            Oh yeah ... wassat
            Oral, so to speak, folk art. So I imagine the monks sitting in the cell and listening to the "older brothers". What are they talking about? And they just talk about how the Tatars looked like five hundred years ago, and the references to sources are exclusively in the form "said my grandfather, and his grandfather told him, and he told him ..." Why, it’s funny ... smile There are no other options?
            For artists of the XVI - XVII century. the Mongol invasion was as old as it was for us, even even older, because they did not have books on history, there were no archaeologists, ethnographers, there were only oral traditions and annals. The monks did not go on military campaigns, the armies saw only their own cells from the window, and then only their own. Therefore, they painted as they themselves imagined, but they represented what they saw.
            They looked like Kazan or Astrakhan Tatars. What their army looks like is unlikely, but possible, although unlikely. Five hundred years ago, the Polovtsy, the Mongols or the Bulgars looked like - they did not know and could not know. And what did the armies of these latter look like for them a generally dark forest.
            Ask the oldest of your relatives what your great-great-grandfather looked like. smile
            1. co-creator
              co-creator 25 January 2018 09: 52
              +1
              Quote: Luga
              if in this way you want to demonstrate your cultural level - your right.

              No, it’s not. I dropped to your level no more. Although no, for this I have to speak out a couple of times about your stupidity. But I won’t. laughing
              Quote: Luga
              But there are not Mongolians Türks, and Asians are not Mongoloids.

              You see, you understand everything.
              Quote: Luga
              "What fish or herring look like."

              Yes, you're humorous, girls love you.
              Quote: Luga
              Is it really one people? And look the same? And the same language? Draw a Tatar now - get a Bulgarian?

              I won’t say anything about the language, but some of the modern Tatars are descendants of the Bulgars. They even have the self-name “Bulgars”, for example, like the Finnish “suomi”. Well, you probably don’t understand this Tatar only saw on TV.
              Quote: Luga
              And the Polovtsy were both Pechenegs and Khazars ... until the 13th century. And they are all “Turks”. Do you think there is no difference? Depict Tatar of the 16th century - will there be a Polovtsian of the 13th century? No difference?

              No, there is a difference. They were all different from the Russians.

              Quote: Luga
              Oral, so to speak, folk art. So I imagine the monks sitting in the cell and listening to the "older brothers". What are they talking about? And they just talk about how the Tatars looked like five hundred years ago, and the references to sources are exclusively in the form "said my grandfather, and his grandfather told him, and he told him ..." And why, it's ridiculous ... Other options no?

              That is, no one could draw then. Could write, but not draw? Do I get it right? Even if for some unknown reason they did not know how, then there were always Busurman neighbors who lived nearby - Cheremis, Mordvinians, Tatars, etc.
              By the way, do you know what epics are about Russian heroes? Count it all, an oral retelling.
              Quote: Luga
              For artists of the XVI - XVII century. the Mongol invasion was as old as it was for us, even more ancient, because they did not have books on history, there were no archaeologists, ethnographers, there were only oral traditions and chronicles

              Well ? For modern artists of the 18 century, the Crusades is not antiquity? Or are you, as a respected "caliber," dividing people who can create themselves and who can only copy?


              Quote: Luga
              The monks did not go on military campaigns, the armies saw only their own cells from the window, and then only their own. Therefore, they painted as they themselves imagined, but they represented what they saw.

              Mdyayaya .. That just can’t be invented to substantiate your words. Monks or clergymen did not go on military campaigns. Now it’s clear why the Fomenkovites are trolling you.
              Quote: Luga
              They looked like Kazan or Astrakhan Tatars. What their army looks like is unlikely, but possible, although unlikely.

              What prevented them from knowing what the Kazan Tatars army looked like? From the banner, coats of arms, military clothing.

              Quote: Luga
              Five hundred years ago, the Polovtsy, the Mongols or the Bulgars looked like - they did not know and could not know. And what did the armies of these latter look like for them a generally dark forest.

              The fact that they were different from the Russians knew for sure, that they had other banners and other weapons they knew for sure. You might not know how it looked, but for this there were Basurman neighbors who served as a vivid example. There is no need to invent anything. you take a tatar and cheremis with a copy from it.
              Quote: Luga
              Ask the oldest of your relatives what your great-great-grandfather looked like.

              No one to ask about my great-great-grandfather, but I know how great-great-grandfather looked. Growth, hair color, and even some relatives looked like him.
              1. co-creator
                co-creator 25 January 2018 10: 07
                0
                The site does not provide an opportunity to correct some errors and typos.
              2. Luga
                Luga 25 January 2018 11: 35
                0
                Quotation: blooded man
                There is no need to invent anything. you take a tatar and cheremis with a copy from it.

                Finally. yes
                Got it.
                That’s exactly what they did - they took what they saw and painted from nature. And they either did not care that the present was different from the old one, or it just didn’t come to mind. Therefore, in miniatures, telling about the XII - XIII century. You can see steel crossbows, artillery pieces, plate armor, Gothic swords and other absurdities, such as Mongols chained to steel with a European appearance.
                Quotation: blooded man
                Well, you probably don’t understand this Tatar only on TV saw.

                wassat laughing
                You can’t even imagine how they made fun ... good
                Quotation: blooded man
                By the way, do you know what epics are about Russian heroes? Count it all, an oral retelling.
                And what do you think, what remains of their original text from what came to us until it was first recorded?
                Quotation: blooded man
                Monks or clergymen did not go on military campaigns.
                What do you think, what percentage of the total number of monks have been in military campaigns? And what percentage of the total number of monks were icon painters or miniaturists? What is the chance that one will coincide with the other, especially considering the fact that everyone in the monasteries was assigned a job according to their abilities and strengths, I won’t take it, but, obviously, they are not too high. There is nothing to be done, for each his own - one goes on campaigns, the other writes icons.
                Quotation: blooded man
                Well ? For modern artists of the 18 century, the Crusades is not antiquity? Or are you, as a respected "caliber," dividing people who can create themselves and who can only copy?

                Then I didn’t understand what you wanted to say.
                Quotation: blooded man
                No one to ask about my great-great-grandfather, but I know how great-great-grandfather looked. Growth, hair color, and even some relatives looked like him.

                And you, of course, are sure that your idea of ​​his appearance corresponds to the real state of things. There are two options: either you are lucky and you are an exception, or you are tragically mistaken. You yourself are sure of the first, but it seems to me that the second is closer to the truth.
                I see that communication with me stimulates your mental activity, it’s nice. It remains to tighten the grammar. Continue to move in this direction, and I can help with what. wink
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator 25 January 2018 12: 42
                  +1
                  Quote: Luga
                  That’s exactly what they did - they took what they saw and painted from nature. And they either did not care that the present was different from the old one, or it just didn’t come to mind.

                  Continue the thought, do not be shy. Cheremis and Tatars had the same appearance with Rusich and the same armor, banners. Did you write everything correctly? laughing
                  Quote: Luga
                  , such as steel-clad Mongols with a European appearance.

                  there’s nothing to even object, because Tatar and Cheremis are a copy of a European. Keep watching.
                  Quote: Luga
                  You can’t even imagine how they made fun ...

                  I immediately wrote that you are a comedian hi
                  Quote: Luga
                  And what do you think, what remains of their original text from what came to us until it was first recorded?

                  Of course, everything is unchanged. Just like the annals and all that. You don’t know. that people had never lied or embellished before, ask any historian. Oh no, it’s only then that they didn’t lie when it is beneficial for historians.
                  Quote: Luga
                  What do you think, what percentage of the total number of monks have been in military campaigns?

                  So all the same there were already progress laughing
                  Quote: Luga
                  And what percentage of the total number of monks were icon painters or miniaturists?

                  I have no idea
                  Quote: Luga
                  What is the chance that one will coincide with the other, especially considering the fact that everyone in the monasteries was entrusted with a matter of ability and strength, I won’t take it, but obviously they are not too high.

                  Well that's it, you made me. It’s interesting how artists draw the sea without ever seeing it. Miracles are wonderful.
                  Quote: Luga
                  There is nothing to be done, for each his own - one goes on campaigns, the other writes icons.

                  You probably personally went camping with the Mongols laughing

                  Quote: Luga
                  Then I didn’t understand what you wanted to say.

                  Artists in the 18th century never saw the Arabs, and especially the Arab army painted a picture about the Crusades.
                  Mr. CALIBER believes that the people of the Middle Ages were so stupid that they themselves could not think of anything. For example, a new architecture, mosaic, etc.
                  Quote: Luga
                  And you, of course, are sure that your idea of ​​his appearance corresponds to the real state of things.

                  I know for sure that he was fair-haired, of medium height and not slanted. I can roughly imagine his appearance the way he saw the man he looked like.
                  Of course, I am not an exception and therefore of all great-great-grandfathers I know the appearance of only two.
                  Quote: Luga
                  I see that communication with me stimulates your mental activity, it’s nice.

                  Discussion with any person stimulates mental activity.
                  1. Luga
                    Luga 25 January 2018 14: 28
                    +1
                    Well, it was worth praising you, and you immediately returned to the former - no constructiveness, continuous interjections sad
                    I'll try to get you back on track.
                    So, we have established that the artists of the XVI - XVII centuries. had no idea what the Mongols and their armies looked like. Oral folklore, as a source of historical knowledge, I, with your permission, will still reject. smile Where did the craftsmen get the material for their creations? You offer the master to go to the market (or in a settlement populated by the corresponding characters) and see how the trading guests (or immigrants) look from the Kazan or Astrakhan conquered by that time by Russian. Who will he see there? Are men of typically East Asian appearance? Not at all. With Asian features - yes, but by no means a Mongolian type. Rather mixed. You’ll change into a Russian outfit and you can distinguish many horseradish from Russian. Next, the master will look at the weapons and armor that they sell. Conical helmets, lamellar chain mail armor, round shields, bent sabers, compound bows ... Everything is the same as that of the Russian soldiers of that time. Already from the XIV century. the armament of the Russians and the steppes was practically unified, like the horse harness. Firearms are excluded. What do you think the master will conclude? Well, bolder ... That's right. In appearance, the Russian army is not much different from the Tatar army, therefore, they must be depicted equally. Symbolism can be taken from the present or omitted altogether.
                    It’s even surprising me why such simple things need to be explained to adults, but since I’ve taken it, I’ll finish the job.
                    If you do not agree with my design, then let's consider yours, if you have it, of course. Turn on your brain, it’s good. smile
                    1. co-creator
                      co-creator 25 January 2018 16: 00
                      +1
                      Quote: Luga
                      Well, it was worth praising you, and you immediately returned to the former - no constructiveness, continuous interjections

                      You are clearly inadequate laughing
                      Quote: Luga
                      I'll try to get you back on track.

                      In whose direction? You didn’t even substantiate your position closely.
                      Quote: Luga
                      So, we have established that the artists of the XVI - XVII centuries. had no idea what the Mongols and their armies looked like.

                      This is what you set, not me.
                      Quote: Luga
                      Oral folklore, as a source of historical knowledge, I, with your permission, will still reject.

                      This is your right, I did not insist.
                      Quote: Luga
                      Where did the craftsmen get the material for their creations? You offer the master to go to the market (or in a settlement populated by the corresponding characters) and see how the trading guests (or immigrants) look from the Kazan or Astrakhan conquered by the Russians by that time. Who will he see there?

                      I have already answered this question. Well, if you think that then the people were stupid and stupid (as the caliber claims, for example) then actually let it be your way.
                      Quote: Luga
                      Are men of typically East Asian appearance? Not at all. With Asian features - yes, but by no means a Mongolian type. Rather mixed.

                      And here is the appearance? In miniatures, the main thing is military armor, banners. There is where they differ and it is clear who is their own and who is Tatar. There are where they are completely identical.
                      And in appearance, people then differed much more than now.
                      Quote: Luga
                      Next, the master will look at the weapons and armor that they sell.

                      Mdyayayaya ..
                      Quote: Luga
                      Correctly. In appearance, the Russian army is not much different from the Tatar army, therefore, they must be depicted equally. Symbolism can be taken from the present or omitted altogether.

                      Are you serious ? I think you should not discuss what you do not know.
                      Quote: Luga
                      It’s even surprising me why such simple things need to be explained to adults, but since I’ve taken it, I’ll finish the job.

                      I wonder why people like you talk about what they don’t understand. I understand that you are a man of humorous and all that. But you can’t stupid so hard.
                      Quote: Luga
                      If you do not agree with my design, then let's consider yours, if you have it, of course. Turn on your brain, it’s good.

                      It’s good for you to read what your opponent writes. Do not know how to read go learn.
                      1. Luga
                        Luga 25 January 2018 17: 26
                        +2
                        Well, this is just rudeness. I wholeheartedly come to him, I enlighten, you can say, I state my position, I argue, I’m even ready to listen, but here ... request
                        I can say, offended and upset. laughing
                        Quotation: blooded man
                        It’s good for you to read what your opponent writes. Do not know how to read go learn.

                        Yes, you, my dear man, would write at least something other than a type of witty remarks. Sometimes in your messages there are some dubious theses, but of the arguments only "mdya". Criticizing someone’s point of view, a cultural person considers it his duty to state his own. "Criticize - offer, offer - do, do - do answer," don't you, my dear?
                        Okay, the current discussion seems to be at an impasse. The opponent is only able to spit poison, as required.
                        Well, well, you once again pleased me and entertained me a bit, until we meet again. laughing
  11. BAI
    BAI 23 January 2018 11: 52
    +2
    Indeed, in fact, Thomas Becket is not none other than Thomas the Slav (he was even called Thomas, who doesn’t know that ?!), who fled to England after the defeat of his rebellion against Byzantium (Becket - from the word “fugitive” ”, But the“ loz ”was lost, and the“ g ”was changed to“ k ”, and“ et ”was added!), And there he was killed by order of the Jewish banking elite!

    What's this? Banter based on the Ukrainian origin of Christ?
    1. Antares
      Antares 23 January 2018 12: 16
      +4
      Quote: BAI
      Banter based on the Ukrainian origin of Christ?

      probably about the Russian superethnos that built the Great Wall of China from wild Asians.
      1. Mikado
        Mikado 23 January 2018 13: 14
        +4
        from wild asians

        they were not only wild, but also nude fellow
        1. cazac
          cazac 23 January 2018 16: 30
          +2
          SO in England, the author showed you there were no shoes. And Asians had shoes.
    2. kalibr
      23 January 2018 16: 07
      +3
      BAI If Ukrainian, then it would be half the trouble. But this is based on our Russian nonsense. Here we have already passed the Ukrainians many ... horse corps forward!
      1. Paranoid50
        Paranoid50 23 January 2018 23: 25
        +3
        Quote: kalibr
        it is based on our Russian nonsense. Here we have already bypassed Ukrainians by a lot ...

        There is such a moment. yes Well, how can I not remember the varnish Urusi again ... wassat
        1. co-creator
          co-creator 24 January 2018 00: 01
          +1
          Quote: Paranoid50
          There is such a moment. Well, how can I not remember the varnish Urusi again ...

          You do not understand what you are talking about)
      2. co-creator
        co-creator 24 January 2018 00: 00
        +2
        Quote: kalibr
        Here we have already passed the Ukrainians many ... horse corps forward!

        In Russia, all these nonsense are on the shelves of an "alternative story." Ukrainian nonsense is studied at school and approved by the Academy of Sciences. Do you understand the difference?
        1. Paranoid50
          Paranoid50 24 January 2018 00: 17
          +2
          Quotation: blooded man
          Do you understand the difference?

          In this case, the difference is calculated mathematically. yes This is me about the percentage of leading to the "alternative." By the way, in the same 90s, our "alternative specialists" were driving, already there was noise. And now, thanks to the vast media space, there is enough "culture among the masses."
          Quotation: blooded man
          Ukrainian nonsense is studied at school and approved by the Academy of Sciences.

          Well, in our schools, too, they do not speak the truth.
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 24 January 2018 00: 33
            +2
            Quote: Paranoid50
            This is me about the percentage of leading to the "alternative."

            Who is doing this is a private matter.
            Quote: Paranoid50
            By the way, in the same 90s, our "alternative specialists" were driving, already there was noise.

            For instance? Fomenko and others have always been recognized in the scientific world as alternative specialists. They had no programs on the central TV channels; interviews were taken a few times.
            Now compare with Ukraine where Bebik is an academician from history.
            Quote: Paranoid50
            Well, in our schools, too, they do not speak the truth.

            Well, this is understandable, but everything is within the framework of scientific traditional history.
            1. Paranoid50
              Paranoid50 24 January 2018 00: 43
              +2
              Quotation: blooded man
              but all within the framework of scientific traditional history.

              Again - everything is relative. Fortunately, in the depths of centuries they are not very crowded. Yes, and enough of that perpetrated over the history of the last hundred years, yeah. Then Kolya’s boy will not let him lie. Indeed, without even distorting the facts, you can submit them with a “different sauce” and voila, here it is an “alternative”. Truly-
              Longer memory worse than syphilis
              Especially in a narrow circle
              Such a bacchanalia of memories
              What not to wish for the enemy ... (c)
              1. co-creator
                co-creator 24 January 2018 00: 46
                +1
                Quote: Paranoid50
                . Then Kolya’s boy will not let him lie. Indeed, without even distorting the facts, you can submit them with a “different sauce” and voila, here it is an “alternative”.

                All the same, we are talking about a specific alternative history of the type - MOV is a proto-language or the Mongols are Rusichs.
  12. smaug78
    smaug78 23 January 2018 12: 27
    0
    I wonder what historians think about the statements of this conspirator?
  13. andrew42
    andrew42 23 January 2018 12: 30
    +3
    The author crossed out the entire work in the last paragraph. Instead of Fomenkovskaya half-foolishness, pure nonsense of the highest degree of passion was sent into battle. What for? Did you add the ball to the letter? And so a very good article. Would be.
    1. Luga
      Luga 23 January 2018 13: 38
      +7
      Quote: andrew42
      The author crossed out the entire work in the last paragraph.

      Have you watched the movie "Election Day"? You are trying to put the author in the position of the character of Sergei Shnurov from this film. When he sang a song about the elections with a final refrain that the censorship of the site would not miss, he was told that the last phrase should be removed. “It was all written for her sake,” the hero objected. smile
      Quote: andrew42
      Instead of Fomenkovskaya half-foolishness, pure nonsense of the highest degree of passion was sent into battle.

      Oh, my dear, you didn’t read, apparently, Fomenkovsky dope, since you call it half-silly. As for passion, then in comparison with some adherents of Fomenkovism, the author is calm and reasonable. I understand him well, for I imagine how annoying is ignorance, elevated to the dignity of which one is proud. I think that the author should be thanked for the fact that in the article he limited himself simply to irony.
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 23 January 2018 23: 16
        +6
        "Oh, my dear, you didn’t read, apparently, Fomenkovsky dope, since you call her half-silly" ///

        You wrote it just fine. good There is no SEMI, everything there is nonsense 100%. For saying "a", the Fomenkovites had to go to the "I" in the same fantasy style. Otherwise, their world will not stick together.
      2. co-creator
        co-creator 24 January 2018 00: 05
        +2
        Quote: Luga
        Oh, my dear, you didn’t read, apparently, Fomenkovsky dope, since you call it half-silly.

        Honestly, those who are trying to refute Fomenko are the real ones. Fomenko’s books are an “alternative story” as indicated by the author himself. Why refute an alternative story and call it a fool?)
  14. Dimmih
    Dimmih 23 January 2018 12: 35
    +5
    Anathema to the author! There is no mention of the ancient Slavs and their relatives, KolyaNah, from ancient times inhabiting all of Eurasia !!! The Vatican conspiracy is mentioned only indirectly, about the Jesuits (the order was created much later, but it doesn’t matter to the Russoarians) it is not mentioned at all! Horror, template break, the paradigm is cracked!
    1. cazac
      cazac 23 January 2018 16: 03
      +4
      But there is an image of a BEAR on billboards. A bear is found on the arms of Russian cities - for example, Yaroslavl. So that these wars are from Yaroslavl or another Russian city.
    2. cazac
      cazac 23 January 2018 16: 27
      +1
      And the fact that on the feet, in the first illustrations, there is not even a primitive shoe - it speaks of events taking place in a warm climate - can present TURKEY (Tsar Grad - Constantinople - Istanbul)?
      Fomenko is right.
      1. kalibr
        23 January 2018 18: 23
        +8
        Oh, oh, it's good that you paid attention to the shoes. Just primitive shoes were the lot ... of the poor. Knights, nobles, wore highways. These are stockings on each leg, tied to a belt and put on over a bra - linen or linen pantaloons to the knees. At the same time, the bras went up. The Hosses had a LEATHER LINK on the foot - that was the shoes. After all, they didn’t go through the mud, they even rode the yard! And they wore several bosses at once. The first linen or even silk. Then cotton or woolen feet with a leather lining. On top - chain mail. On top of chain mail - often worn bright of colored fabric and again with a lining of the foot. That is three shosov = normal! So what shoes? What for?
        1. Mikado
          Mikado 23 January 2018 21: 58
          +1
          It’s easier to lay out for clarity, Vyacheslav Olegovich, the very picture from the article about the “singer who forgot to say a lot” wink
        2. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 23 January 2018 23: 18
          +2
          Interestingly, I did not know such details ...
        3. Monarchist
          Monarchist 24 January 2018 14: 25
          +2
          "stockings on each leg, tied to the belt *, and then women for several centuries wore stockings attached to the belt. I also found similar ones: I remember pictures from the magazine:" Worker "and some other magazine
          1. kalibr
            25 January 2018 17: 38
            0
            He himself wore this in childhood!
    3. vlad_vlad
      vlad_vlad 23 January 2018 21: 18
      +4
      UN dispute over primacy in the invention of the telephone:
      Germans: in a layer of earth corresponding to the 19th century we found a rusty body. the receiver. it means that we already had a telephone in the 19th century!
      Russians: in a layer of land corresponding to the 15th century we found a piece of wire. This means that we had a wired telephone already in the 15th century!
      Jews: in the layer of earth corresponding to the 1st century we did not find anything. This means that we had a wireless phone in the 1st century!
  15. Hey
    Hey 23 January 2018 13: 44
    0
    I look at all these miniatures and bas-reliefs and more. And vague doubts torment me. The artists of those times or hands have slanting eyes and curves, such freaks draw. A bit of time passes and bam other artists and ideal almost photographic images, regardless of the size of the paintings. If the gift of the artist, then it is from birth. I had a friend at school, I drew a meeting. Even in a simple sketch, a specific person guessed. And try so clean photo.
    This is what I mean, it seems to me that this is all a fake for distorting history.
    1. Curious
      Curious 23 January 2018 14: 52
      +5
      It’s all about the fact that the history of art for you is a mystery with seven seals. Ignorance of one breeds further ignorance. But the school taught - the Middle Ages, the Renaissance. Or haven't you been taught?
      1. cazac
        cazac 23 January 2018 15: 52
        +1
        In fact, before the Renaissance, did not bother with the image of human faces and people's bodies, there was a kind of TAB on the image of people. But this does not mean that these pictures are ancient artifacts - they could imitate.
    2. kalibr
      23 January 2018 16: 05
      +5
      You know there is such a country France. And there is the Loire Valley. And in it, well, just a whole bunch of locks. Some restored, some not. Some belong to the owners and they live there (their kind) from the moment of construction. Cabbage is grown in ditches - I have funny photos, they drive tourists. So, one of the owners has a library of ancient incunabula. THREE THOUSAND books !!! Different centuries. And they have beautiful miniatures. Some have almost every page. But he does not allow them to be studied. And his ancestors did not allow him! This is ours! Why should we give something to someone? And this is also a fake? A huge titanic work that no one actually uses. And so the question is, who and why did it forge, if nobody uses it and nobody refers to it. As for your friend, he learned to draw because he saw images around him. Just saw. And if you saw the figures of the Middle Ages? Would paint too! Man is a cast of society. And why did you learn to draw real images? And they started to build !!! Cathedrals, workshops, palaces ... They began to build - they began to dig, they began to dig - they found ancient ruins and statues. Frescoes, mosaics ... We looked ... "That's how it is!" And they started ... first copy, then create your own. The Renaissance began.
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 23 January 2018 17: 14
        +5
        Right! There are a lot of artifacts in such estates. And unfortunately, how
        they are stored, whether they die or not is unknown.
        It would be nice to get the owners to get them digitized:
        a couple of dozen high-quality pictures, both in IR and X-ray - and ... keep on in the chests.
        The estates are often left without heirs, under court and litigation ... together
        with artifacts in the basement.
        1. kalibr
          23 January 2018 17: 33
          +4
          I wrote to the castle - not this one, but a similar one, also with a library. He offered to come, see, write about them, make them a good advertisement. Like, tourists will go to you .... I know that they were handed a letter ... but they did not even answer me!
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 23 January 2018 18: 10
            +6
            Strange people live there ... One of the court cases.
            Two neighbors. The lawsuit: "I (my ancestors) live here and own vineyards for 650 years,
            and my neighbor is a low-born upstart, living here just a miserable 300 years. And he, passing
            by car past my vineyards, always turns his head to the other side!
            Thus insulting me. Please punish the rude. "
            There was a court. It turned out that the "snapper" just looked toward YOUR vineyards, admire them.
            And he won the case. smile
      2. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 23 January 2018 17: 24
        +5
        And in India!
        Recently there was a case. The usual thing with the police. Denunciation
        one temple attendant to another that he steals and sells
        antiques. Cops arrived. They opened the basement. And there, as in Mowgli (with python
        and blind cobra) belay
        mountains, mountains of antiques, jewelry from chests crumbled into dust ...
        Offerings to the temple for a thousand years. The cops called the special forces. Cordoned off.
        Quickly estimated at $ 40 billion.
        The temple is nationalized. Once I was at the Maharajah. Decide what to do about it.
        Can you imagine how much history there is?
        1. Mikado
          Mikado 23 January 2018 18: 24
          +4
          Can you imagine how much history there is?

          I imagined what the first words said after what I saw wink
          "I successfully logged in ...." belay
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 23 January 2018 19: 00
            +3
            You know, after this story, I believed in
            the legendary honesty (or rather, non-theft) of the Indians.
            Indians are often run into: lazy, slow, optional, etc.
            But they do not steal. For this, the British always appreciated the Indian servants.
            The fact is that ministers for many generations did not plunder the treasures,
            although they could have - there was no inventory and control.
            The denunciation was for the single trifle theft of one person
            - stole some silver spoons, forks.
            1. Mikado
              Mikado 23 January 2018 19: 01
              +2
              mentality s! request
            2. Curious
              Curious 23 January 2018 20: 10
              +3
              The lack of stealing of the Indians is compensated by the stealing of their monkeys.
              1. Mikado
                Mikado 23 January 2018 21: 10
                +2
                I have long wanted to show you this video, Viktor Nikolaevich drinks
                watch from 4:44 to 5:10. The music is famously matched to this very moment. laughing
                1. Curious
                  Curious 23 January 2018 21: 32
                  +2
                  Exactly. Can you imagine when a gang of these demons in a house without supervision is hosted? And here I am, at the wrong time, with a field hockey stick. The Hindus gave it to her. Convenient.
                  1. Sling cutter
                    Sling cutter 23 January 2018 21: 37
                    +3
                    Quote: Curious
                    Exactly. Can you imagine when a gang of these demons in a house without supervision

                    In principle, you can deal with a PC bully Well and then ....., sapper shovel and other "Murzilka" good drinks
                    1. Mikado
                      Mikado 23 January 2018 21: 38
                      +3
                      Greenpeace and American gays will be against it! laughing drinks
                    2. Curious
                      Curious 23 January 2018 21: 42
                      +4
                      In India, this cattle is one of the sacred animals. You can’t touch her with your finger. And in close combat, they are more dodgy than humans. And teeth - like a pit bull. So the stick is the thing. I stood in the hockey goal. The puck is faster than a monkey. In this case, this skill is preferable.
                      1. Mikado
                        Mikado 23 January 2018 21: 45
                        +2
                        ... and the superhero came, and he kicked the ass of all the local punks ... angry laughing drinks
                  2. Mikado
                    Mikado 23 January 2018 21: 42
                    +4
                    And here I am, at the wrong time, with a field hockey stick. The Hindus gave it to her. Convenient.

                    I even learn more and more about you .. what and he’s scared himself! belay Viktor Nikolaevich, with high-voltage - your tricks too ?! wink
                    and yes, macaque is a pure gopnik, forgive the expression. yes I saw the sacrifice and “squeezed out” what I wanted, and was washed off by the gardens! laughing As I saw this video, I immediately remembered you! good Only reason was not to lay out. request Now I’ve been looking for about ten minutes to put it, in the search for the composer I typed topics! drinks
                    1. Curious
                      Curious 23 January 2018 22: 06
                      +2
                      They themselves fall into the high voltage. They do not study PUE and PTB.
                      1. Mikado
                        Mikado 23 January 2018 22: 08
                        +2
                        yeah, and who planted a banana for bait? yourself fell? wink Joke! there was no such thing! drinks
      3. co-creator
        co-creator 24 January 2018 00: 11
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        And they started to build !!! Cathedrals, workshops, palaces ... They began to build - they began to dig, they began to dig - they found ancient ruins and statues. Frescoes, mosaics ... We looked ... "That's how it is!" And they started ... first copy, then create your own. The Renaissance began.

        This is very dashing of course. Third-grader logic. Where did the ancient Greeks excavate in your opinion?
        1. kalibr
          25 January 2018 17: 35
          0
          But the Renaissance did not begin among the ancient Greeks .... 6th grade. History Wed centuries! Read it!
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 25 January 2018 18: 58
            +1
            Yes, I know when the Renaissance began. It is unclear why you think that people in this era themselves could not come up with new architectural styles, mosaics and more.
            1. kalibr
              26 January 2018 16: 56
              0
              They came up with a lot of things, relying on previously created samples, studying them, copying. People are learning! It is impossible to come up with a new without knowing the old.
              1. co-creator
                co-creator 26 January 2018 18: 40
                +1
                So I asked the question from whom the ancient Greeks studied.
  16. cazac
    cazac 23 January 2018 15: 47
    +1
    An interesting and truthful article. The author proved how history has been distorted over the years.
    And today they are trying to write a story based on fiction, not facts.
    They even take as a basis an artwork (for example, Tolstoy: "Peter 1", "War and Peace").
    And how famous works of art have no historical significance.
    1. Curious
      Curious 23 January 2018 15: 56
      +5
      The one who wrote the novel "Peter the Great", he is Alex Tolstoy. Nevertheless, native literature must be known.
      1. co-creator
        co-creator 24 January 2018 00: 13
        +1
        You need to read carefully what a person writes, and then be clever.
        1. Curious
          Curious 24 January 2018 00: 50
          +1
          I wasn’t smart, I was joking. Well, I did not know that you would visit us with a revision. Incognita. And so serious. You do not lace up the shoes with reinforcement?
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 24 January 2018 02: 26
            +1
            A joke without humor is certainly strong.
          2. Dimmih
            Dimmih 24 January 2018 05: 12
            0
            100% it is, puts on pants over his head and starts a washing machine with a pusher. But our, kondovy, it is possible to tell a homespun ruler, a natural product.
            1. co-creator
              co-creator 24 January 2018 08: 58
              0
              Who studied what.
  17. DimanC
    DimanC 23 January 2018 15: 48
    +2
    In the end, is it such a joke?
  18. Some kind of compote
    Some kind of compote 23 January 2018 16: 15
    19
    Beautiful miniatures
    Is it necessary to say that the “crime of the century”, and in no other way could the murder of the archbishop in the cathedral be called at that time, brought to life a lot of his descriptions, was included in chronicles not only in England

    And we have? Malyuta strangled Metropolitan Philip on royal orders - and no one called this a crime of the century.
    Muscovy, after all
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 24 January 2018 00: 15
      +3
      In England, tens of thousands of tramps were hanged, former peasants whose lands were taken away for pasture and no one considers this a crime.

      The decaying west, after all.
      1. Dimmih
        Dimmih 24 January 2018 05: 19
        +3
        Quotation: blooded man
        In England, tens of thousands of tramps were hanged, former peasants whose lands were taken away for pasture and no one considers this a crime.

        The decaying west, after all.

        We’ve been sitting for a long time, in the era of VCRs in the apartment of one acquaintance, watching a film on an abstract topic. There were 7 of us: 5 men and two sisters of the landlord. We sit, look, nothing portends trouble, and here one of the sisters says: "Do you know that during the Second World War more than 20 million people died!". We looked at each other ..... And then we look, the theme of the film is WWII and the violence did not affect it. I wanted a man to speak out .... And so your comment, I wanted to insert something clever)))))
        1. co-creator
          co-creator 24 January 2018 08: 52
          +2
          Quote: Dimmih
          . So your comment, I wanted to insert something clever)))))

          Well, so I inserted my clever into a clever comment. Shaw is not like that)
  19. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 23 January 2018 17: 10
    +3
    An interesting visual analysis of the history of art, and an interesting historical example!
    good
  20. Dimmih
    Dimmih 24 January 2018 11: 19
    +1
    Quotation: blooded man
    Quote: Dimmih
    . So your comment, I wanted to insert something clever)))))

    Well, so I inserted my clever into a clever comment. Shaw is not like that)

    Yes, everything is fine, go the right way, continue, as one friend of mine says, freeze freezing. The meaning of this phrase is not clear to me, but the combination of letters for this case is quite suitable.
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 24 January 2018 11: 22
      +3
      Well, what kind of company is this behavior.
      1. Dimmih
        Dimmih 24 January 2018 12: 43
        +1
        Too our pick has left the topic of the article under discussion, for this reason, if you do not mind, I will finish sprinkling poison on you and wait for a worthy case.)))))
  21. Monarchist
    Monarchist 24 January 2018 12: 59
    +1
    In essence, Thomas Becket and Henry 2 are the eternal confrontation of power and opposition. Maria Stuart and Elizabeth 1, the clerk of Ivan the Terrible, Peter and Tsarevich Alexei - all this from one opera: the struggle for power. There are many similarities, but also many different ones.
    The banquet did not want to sacrifice its principles and died. Loyalty to your principles and beliefs is worthy of respect.
    Maria Stuart was actually a frivolous adventurer, but she behaved with dignity even on the scaffold, when the executioner wanted to undress her, she tactfully cased him: “Firstly, I am not going to appeal to everyone. Secondly, I’m not accustomed to the help of such a maid like you” . Tactfully, but with a sense of superiority,
    Oprichina is a separate issue, but I will say one thing: among two or three real conspirators, 8/10 were nothing to do with. So under Stalin: Gamarnik, Tukhachevsky and that Blucher were undoubted watchdogs, but their wives were shot along with them. The apparent excess is not too zealous.
    If you believe the stories of the NKVD veterans: almost all cried or behaved like manikins. It was later that the “faithful Leninist”, they all became “white and fluffy” and all died, praising the party and the revolution
  22. Monarchist
    Monarchist 24 January 2018 13: 02
    +2
    Quote: Dimmih
    100% it is, puts on pants over his head and starts a washing machine with a pusher. But our, kondovy, it is possible to tell a homespun ruler, a natural product.

    Is that you about yourself?
  23. kalibr
    25 January 2018 17: 43
    0
    Quotation: blooded man
    Discussion with any person stimulates mental activity.

    Not at all with anyone. You can only guess about something else!
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 25 January 2018 18: 49
      +1
      A discussion involves an exchange of opinions, and someone else's opinion may not always coincide with yours.
      1. kalibr
        26 January 2018 16: 58
        0
        A fool and an ignoramus may also have an opinion. But why should I exchange with him? It will be possible for him to be +, but what will happen to me? Coverage and intelligence are two different things.
        1. co-creator
          co-creator 26 January 2018 18: 43
          +1
          If a person leads a discussion with a fool, then he himself is. Discussion always requires mental effort.
          If you simply state the information you possess, then this is not a discussion.
  24. co-creator
    co-creator 25 January 2018 19: 16
    +2
    Luga,
    Quote: Luga
    Well, this is just rudeness. I wholeheartedly come to him, I enlighten, you can say, I state my position, I argue, I’m even ready to listen, but here ...

    Laughing for no reason is a sign of fooling around. By the way, stop inserting emoticons where you don’t get there, it’s gone. You as a humorist should know that humor must be refined.

    Quote: Luga
    Yes, you, my dear man, would write at least something other than a type of witty remarks. Sometimes in your messages there are some dubious theses, but of the arguments only "mdya". Criticizing someone’s point of view, a cultural person considers it his duty to state his own. "Criticize - offer, offer - do, do - do answer," don't you, my dear?

    I write everything quite clearly and clearly. What would you better understand cite witty examples, but apparently this does not help.
    I don’t criticize you at all, since there is nothing to criticize. For you, people of that era are a dense population that does not understand anything that cannot distinguish Tatars from Russians. Does not understand how to display this in painting, etc. It seems to be understood that enemies and their own should always be different is an axiom) Even today, when the uniform is the same, chevrons or insignia are painted on the pictures.
    Moreover, you don’t particularly want to read, and you bypass all the questions that need to be answered. Actually, this does not surprise me, for people like you, ChSV is always ahead of my head.

    In short, you can’t think within certain limits and look at the situation broader.