Military Review

"Russian" collaborationism: apotheosis of lack of will

230
During the Great Patriotic War, there were Soviet citizens who were on that German side — in the ranks of the Wehrmacht, the SS, the paramilitary and police formations. And today there are admirers of these people who have betrayed their country. Many of them like to speculate about 2 million Russian, who fought with the Soviet Union on the side of Germany for ideological reasons: they say, so damned were they damned Bolsheviks commissars. It is also said about the “second civil war”. In fact, the basis of collaborationism was not at all the ideological denial of Soviet power. Yes, there were many staunch opponents of the Communists, but it was not they who determined the face of “Russian” collaborationism.




FAILURE FROM THE BEGINNING

Let's start with the fact that the most plausible figure seems to be 1,2 million people. She is called by the historian Sergey Drobyazko, who studied the data in the most detailed way. Among them were many immigrants from Central Asia, the Baltic states, the Caucasus and Ukraine. The number of actual Russians is estimated at about 400 thousand.

Almost immediately, the Russian units proved to be bad assistants. Many very quickly understood their own real position of serfs, and wrong, hopelessness of their work. Moreover, this awareness came even before Stalingrad, when the USSR stood on the edge of the abyss. In this regard, the fate of the so-called Russian National People’s Army (RNNA) is very indicative. Sergey Ivanov, Konstantin Kromiadi and others who had powdered the brains of Soviet prisoners with stories about the new Russian state, which would arise during the struggle against the Bolsheviks and Jews, formed this “army” on the initiative of several white émigrés. The number of participants in the formation reached 4 thousand, and the Germans pinned certain hopes on him. The most important task of the RNNA was entrusted with the spring of 1942: it was used against the Soviet units of the 4 Airborne Corps and the 1 Guards Cavalry Corps located in the German rear in the Vyazma and Dorogobuzh area.



It was assumed that collaborators dressed in Soviet uniforms would capture Lieutenant General Pavel Belov and try to persuade the Red Army men to surrender. However, the opposite happened: the 100 fighters of the RNNA switched to the Soviet side. After that, the "army" was aimed at fighting the partisans. The struggle was sluggish, and the people of the Army massively went over to the side of those with whom they were to fight. So, only 6 – 15 August 1942-o to the partisans (with weapons in their hands) 200 officers and soldiers crossed the RNNA. And in October, there was a major conflict between the PHNA and the German command, which set out to unequivocally show who is the master and who is the servant. From the very beginning of its existence, the RNNA wore a Soviet uniform there, but with shoulder straps and white-blue-red cockades. Now the order was given to change into German uniform. In addition, the people's army should be divided into battalions. The personnel were indignant and refused to obey, as a result, they had to use SS troops - for admonishing overbearing serfs. Weapons from the RNNA fighters were taken away, then, however, returned, after which the 300 people immediately went to the partisans. Further more: in November, 600 people joined the ranks of defectors. In the end, the Germans lost patience, the RNNA was disbanded, and its units were transferred to France.

MARCH OF TRAINS

In April, 1943, the Nazis sought to raise the morale of their assistants and immediately enrolled all Russian in the Vlasov Russian Liberation Army (ROA). In this way, they tried to convince them that they were one. The Germans did this not at all from the breadth of the soul, but because the exodus began: in the same 1943, thousands of people fled to the 14 partisans.

It was already the most real decomposition, and the Germans decided to get out of harm's way to remove the “helpers” from the Eastern Front. Relatively reliable units were sent to France, Holland, Belgium and the Balkans, and the unreliable ones were simply disbanded. This dealt a rather powerful blow to the mind of the defectors, who finally understood the insignificance of their real status. Many of them preferred to flee to the partisans than to go to the West.



In this regard, the fate of the 1-th Russian national brigade SS "Druzhina" is most indicative. It was created on the basis of the Combat Union of Russian Nationalists, headed by Soviet colonel Vladimir Gil (who took the pseudonym Rodionov). Initially, the 1 Russian National Detachment of the SS (Druzhina No. 1) arose, after unification with Druzhina No. 2, the formation was referred to as the 1 Russian National SS Regiment. And after gaining at the expense of local residents and prisoners in May 1943, the SS team itself was formed. The headquarters of the brigade was operated by the German headquarters, which headed the Hauptsturmführer SS Rozner. It is clear that there could be no talk of any kind of independence. The number of the brigade was 3 thousand people. Specialized "vigilantes" in the fight against partisans.

Thus, the brigade took part in anti-partisan operations in the Begoml-Lepel area. There, the partisans strongly taught the “Russian” SS men, which had a good educational effect. Many people thought about the transition, and the partisans immediately took advantage of these moods. In August, 1943-th Gil-Rodionov established contact with the command of the Zheleznyak guerrilla brigade. He and the SS brigade soldiers were promised an amnesty in the event that the “warriors” would side with the partisans. The proposal was readily accepted, parts of the brigade destroyed the German headquarters, and at the same time those officers who were considered unreliable. Next, former SS men attacked the nearest German garrisons.

Almost the entire composition of the unit, which became known as the 1 th anti-fascist partisan brigade, went to the partisans. Vladimir Gil was awarded the Order of the Red Star and reinstated in his former rank. Freshly baked guerrillas have performed quite well in battle. So, they defeated the German garrisons in Ilya, Obodovtsy and Vileyka. In April, 1944, the Nazis launched a major operation to defeat the partisans of the Polotsk-Lepel zone. The brigade was forced to break through the German blockade. During this breakthrough, Gil received serious injuries, from which he died.

MOVEMENT OF DESERTERS

Vlasov army, however, also did not want to fight. Andrei Vlasov persistently tried to convince the German command that he needed more time to prepare. With difficulty we managed to force Sergey Bunyachenko’s 1 division to advance to the Oder front. There, on April 13, she took part in the attack of the Soviet troops, and the Vlasovites did not like this contribution to the fight against Bolshevism. They beat them seriously, for real. Then Bunyachenko stole his formation in the Czech Republic to connect with other Vlasov units.

For the time being, we leave aside ideological anti-communists and make an obvious conclusion. For the most part, the so-called Vlasovites were deserters rather than anti-Communists. They simply did not have the will to somehow confront the huge military-political machine of the Third Reich. In a number of cases, lack of will was promoted by an insult to the Soviet power, in which very many were really offended. However, many offended to the end opposed the fascist invaders, not fearing hardship or death. So the factor of resentment, not to mention the ideological, did not play a decisive role.



It is curious to compare all this with the First World War. Then those who disagree with the authorities did not run over to the Germans or the Austrians, they did not desert. They conducted stubborn (and rather risky) revolutionary work in the tsarist army. The Bolsheviks were famous for their organization and courage, they supported the overthrow of all imperialist governments, but they did not take the side of the Germans. The Bolsheviks have always been in favor of holding the front, and categorically against desertion. And they never supported the deserter call "Bayonet into the ground - and let's go and let my woman squeeze."

The Bolsheviks continued to fight, fraternizing with the Germans, while not surrendering to them, agitating the very same Germans and preparing for a decisive revolutionary assault. The resistance of the Bolsheviks was recognized by many army commanders, for example, the commander of the Northern front, General Vladimir Cheremisov. He was so shocked by the fortress of the Bolsheviks that he even financed their newspaper “Our Way”. And not only he, but many other commanders also financed the Bolshevik press. This, incidentally, to the question of where the Bolsheviks took money from. And, of course, here you can and should remember the Moonsund battle, during which the Bolsheviks concentrated in their hands resistance to the Germans.

Quite another thing - the "assistants" of the Germans. They showed themselves very, very weak. Their irretrievable losses amounted to 8,5 thousand people, of which 8 thousand were missing. In fact, it was about deserters and defector. As a result, the Germans disbanded many of these parts, leaving them fortification work. When the Allies landed on the coast of the Atlantic, many eastern fled, others surrendered, and others even rebelled, interrupting their superiors. And even under the curtain of the “helpers” they tried to use them to form the Russian Liberation Army.

LOCAL REPUBLIC: PUBLIC PRESS

The current fans of collaborationism have a special pride - the Lokotsky district, loudly called a republic. During the war, the Germans allowed the creation of a police autonomous unit in the territory of several districts of the Oryol and Kursk regions for reasons that will be discussed below. This education was headed by Bronislav Kaminsky, the leader of the so-called People’s Socialist Party of Russia “Viking” (at first, the burgomaster was Konstantin Voskoboinik, who was killed by partisans). You will tell nothing, the good name for Russian nationalist party! In its manifesto we read: “Our party is a national party. She remembers and appreciates the best traditions of the Russian people. She knows that the Vikings Knights, relying on the Russian people, created the Russian state in hoary antiquity ”. It is significant that these collaborators build the Russian state by non-Russian Vikings, who only rely on the Russian people! By the way, the newly-minted "Vikings" - the Nazis were initially not allowed to create a party, the go-ahead was given only in 1943 year. Such is the "independence".

Nowadays Lokot self-government is regularly PR, trying to present it as an alternative to communism and Stalinism. A lot of molasses is being poured over what economic prosperity the local collaborationists managed to achieve after the abolition of the hated collective farm system. Say, there was plenty of land and cattle with poultry among the peasants. At the same time, it is completely incomprehensible what kind of prosperity can be discussed in the conditions of the hardest war, when the overwhelming majority of the adult male population is put under the gun. And besides, powerful requisitions were imposed on the local population: thousands of cattle were driven to the needs of the German “liberator” army.


Warlords RONA

Kaminsky created the Russian People’s Liberation Army (RONA), whose numbers reached 20 thousands. She acted, however, not too effectively, although she was fierce in respect of the captured partisans and those who were suspected of complicity. Here the administrative and legal talents of the Kamin people, who made up a special anti-partisan code from the 150 articles, each of which relied on the death penalty. They served quite productively as scouts, directing German punishers to partisans. However, there were also enough defectors in RONA: only in the winter of 1942 – 1943 of the year, thousands of Kamin residents, who had previously destroyed German garrisons and warehouses, took over the partisan side.

Kaminsky and his minions controlled only part of their autonomy, whose population was 0,5 million people. “By looking at the map, it is easy to see that Kaminsky was given control of the territories around the Bryansk-Navlya-Lgov and Bryansk-Navlya-Khutor-Mikhailovsky railway lines,” writes historian Alexander Dyukov. - It was in these areas that the so-called Southern Bryansk partisan region acted ... In this way, territories that were de facto controlled by partisans were transferred to Kaminsky ... In order to save “German blood”, the 2nd command tank the army went on to provide Bronislaw Kaminsky, who demonstrated his loyalty to the invaders, to “militarize” his subordinate area and fight the partisans, naturally, under German control ”(Die Aktion Kaminsky. Trampled victory. Against lies and revisionism).

One of the Kaminists, Mikheyev, honestly admitted: “Only 10% of the forest belonged to us”. And General Bernhard Ramke stated: "The gunmen of engineer Kaminsky cannot repel major attacks on themselves." In fact, the Nazis were experimenting with their subordinate "Untermensch", whose main task was to protect the railway lines from the partisans. The experiment failed miserably, so, by the way, the Germans didn’t do this anywhere else.

The end of Kaminsky was disgraceful: the Germans shot him during the suppression of the Warsaw uprising.

COMPLETE SUITS

In general, if the deserters desperately wanted to live, and the misguided ones wanted to atone for them, then ideological anti-Communists sought death with the urgency of suicides. And here it is appropriate to recall about one more "heroes" of the anti-Bolshevik struggle. “N. Sakhnovsky, a member and then head of the Russian Imperial Union-Order, fought as part of the Belgian Walloon Legion of the SS troops under the command of the deeply religious Catholic Leon Degrel,” writes the historian Vladimir Larionov. - Sakhnovsky’s battalion received weapons only in Ukraine, and escaping from the encirclement in the Korsun-Shevchenko Operation of the Red Army, the battalion almost without exception died in a heroic hand-to-hand combat ”(“ Knights of Holy Russia ”).

This is just some kind of extravaganza - "died in hand-to-hand combat", but the weapon was not given out! It is clear why the Nazis assigned the role of serfs and cannon fodder to the Russian “helpers”. But how could the Russian people grab such a deadly bait? It is indicative that fans of collaborationism glorify the Cossacks with might and main, who followed Peter Krasnov and were eventually extradited to Joseph Stalin by Western democracies. (For some reason, the act of extradition is called betrayal, which is completely absurd, because the allies did not betray anyone. They just fulfilled their allied obligations, issuing the USSR to those who fought on the German side, including themselves.) it is known that many of these accidents committed suicide, fearing "terrible reprisals."

"Russian" collaborationism: apotheosis of lack of will


These horrors are greatly exaggerated, the attitude towards collaborators was often quite liberal. Here is an example: October 31 1944, the British authorities handed over to the Soviet allies 10 thousands of repatriates who served in the Wehrmacht. As soon as they arrived in Murmansk, they were forgiven, and also excused from criminal liability. The test, however, had to be passed, and the collaborators spent a year in the filtration camp, which is quite logical. After that, the overwhelming majority were released, moreover, the seniority was accrued.

The data of archives, which expose the lie that allegedly all or most of the prisoners were sitting, has long been open. Historian Victor Zemskov worked in the State Archives of the Russian Federation, studied the materials stored there. It turns out that by March 1 1946 2 427 906 returnees were sent to their place of residence, 801 152 - to serve in the Soviet army, 608 095 - enlisted in the working battalions of the People's Commissariat of Defense of the USSR. But 272 867 people (6,5%) handed over to the NKVD of the USSR. Actually, they were sitting.

Cossack suicide is a terrible end, which shows the depth of despair and doom of "Russian" collaborationism.

Thousands of fighters against Bolshevism did not constitute any independent force, did not possess any subjectivity. At first they went to war for the Germans, then they rushed to seek the patronage of the Anglo-Americans, hoping for their help and intercession. But among the collaborators, who hold far-right views, there were enough people who perfectly understand what Western democracies are. They knew that it was plutocracy, trying to subjugate Russia. The same Krasnov in the novel “From the Double-headed Eagle to the Red Banner” put the words that England was the main enemy in the mouth of his hero Sablin. And so the people who fought yesterday for the anti-democratic Adolf Hitler, with some kind of blind hope, rush into the arms of this most important enemy.


Peter Krasnov (third from left)

It may be objected that Krasnov and Krasnov used even a ghostly, but still a chance for salvation. Yes, this is true, although it is significant that they themselves considered themselves completely dependent on some external, foreign forces. And this shows the weakness of collaborationism, which was expressed in a terrible disease of the will. If these people really were sure they were right, they would continue the struggle, for example, entering into an alliance with the Serbian Chetniks Drazhi Mikhailovich.

In any case, it was possible to make an attempt, because everything is better than reducing accounts with life, committing a terrible sin of suicide. However, it turned out that these people had no faith in themselves; there was only a blind hatred of Bolshevism, which was combined with a wild fear of him. And this hatred in half with fear blinded and stunned collaborators. They were not looking for the Truth, but for the Forces, after seeing her in the deadly Teutonic armadades. They came under the banner of foreign invaders, which means political suicide. And then many of them - quite naturally - literally committed suicide.

Here are indicative lines from the diary of a certain Lydia Osipova, who passionately hated Bolshevism and who wanted the arrival of the German liberators: “They are bombing, but we are not afraid. Bombs something liberation. And so they think and feel everything. No one is afraid of bombs ... And I decided upon the arrival of the Bolsheviks to poison myself and poison Nicholas [her husband. - A.E.] so that he did not know. " To read all this is wild, here some very terrible, infernal abysses open up. And again, there is suicidality. Lack of own strength, hatred and fear - all this threw ideological collaborators into a spinning funnel of suicide. They were so merged with someone else's Force that they dissolved in it and died with it together.

DISEASE WILL

Now we need to remember that collaborationism existed in countries where there were no Bolsheviks in power. On this occasion, Yury Nersesov wrote very well: “By the beginning of the war, the population of the Third French Republic with colonies exceeded 110 million people ... At least 200 thousand French citizens got into the ranks of the German army. Another 500 thousand served in the military units of the collaborationist government of Marshal Petain, who independently fought against the allies in Africa and the Middle East, and also joined German units, making up, in particular, an infantry regiment and an artillery division in the famous 90 th motorized light division African corps of field marshal Rommel. Taking into account the hard-working guerrillas and underground fighters of the police, Gestapo men and fascist militants, about 1 million is obtained with 80 thousand dead.

The same picture will be in any other European country. From Poland, where with 35 million pre-war population only from the territories occupied by Germany, 500 thousand people joined the army and police, to Denmark, which capitulated to Germany almost without resistance, only in the SS troops on the Eastern front lost dead and captured 2,5 thousand people.

So it turns out that the share of collaborators in European countries where there was neither a GULAG nor a collective farm is much higher than the Soviet one ”(“ The Myth of the Second Civil ”).



There were, of course, ideological people there, like, say, Belgian SS man Leon Degrel. In the winter of 1945, he led three battalions and three separate companies of Walloon volunteers to help German cities. After the battles at Stargard, only 625 people survived. Or the SS volunteer Eugene Volo, the last of those who received the Iron Cross in the Reich Chancellery. Although there were a minority of these, most of the collaborators simply submitted to the Force, being bewitched by the power and ruthlessness of the German military-political machine. The same is true with the majority of “Russian” collaborators. True, the disease of the will, forcing one to look for the Force (and not to be it), was also inherent in Hitler's ideological accomplices.

It must be said that in our country this disease of will is fatally superimposed on our long-standing Westernism, inherent in very different people, and even to those who are very, very far from collaborationism. In the West they see the Force before which they bow. Not the Truth, but namely the Force expressed in the ruthless, all-crushing expansion and the rampant accumulation of material resources. This Force kills and enslaves the will, turning man into an object, a conductor of cosmic power. In the end, the subjects of the Force themselves become such objects. Recall that plutocrac is a slave to its capital.

In 1941 – 1945, the majority of Russians fought on the side of Truth, opposing the armadas of the German Forces. A minority bowed before the Force, which made him weak and doomed to failure.
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  1. Theodore
    Theodore 20 January 2018 06: 29 New
    20
    One thing on the power to be offended! Another to fight against your people!
    1. verner1967
      verner1967 20 January 2018 08: 45 New
      +4
      Quote: Theodore
      One thing on the power to be offended! Another to fight against your people!

      which, in fact, happened in civilian.
      1. Looking for
        Looking for 20 January 2018 20: 16 New
        -1
        BUT !!! at both sides.
        1. verner1967
          verner1967 22 January 2018 06: 10 New
          +3
          Quote: Seeker
          at both sides

          no one argues with this, by the way, this applies to almost any civil war
    2. Lexus
      Lexus 20 January 2018 16: 28 New
      12
      Many of these, after all, got what they deserved.

      Vlasov and his headquarters, August 1, 1946 am bully
      All attempts to “wash and bleach” them today are the same betrayal!
  2. avva2012
    avva2012 20 January 2018 06: 29 New
    17
    'Subjugated to the Force,' it is well said, succinctly and accurately. Infernal enslavement, so characteristic of capitalism as a formation. Interesting article, thanks to the author, for his non-standard view of not only treason as a phenomenon.
    1. Cat
      Cat 20 January 2018 11: 14 New
      +9
      Dear Alexander, if we recognize the inevitable power of the “fascist machine,” then the feat of our grandfathers and great-grandfathers who broke the ridge of the brown plague becomes a truly outstanding event in the history of our Fatherland.
      In the Soviet doctrine there was a comprehensive category - mass heroism. Despite the pathos, this is the only term explaining the reason: when minors reached the age of their own, in order to go to the front, the elderly went to partisans, pilots to ram, ........
      How many times have Russia tried to bring it to its knees, but it has always risen and surrendered!
      1. avva2012
        avva2012 20 January 2018 12: 30 New
        11
        Vladislav, he, a feat, is the most outstanding thing that happened in the foreseeable history of the world. It was impossible to win. But they won. Not only does most of us know this, but also them. Only therefore, They, Here and Here, are trying to belittle, pervert, an unprecedented event that happened during the existence of civilization. And worst of all for Them, this feat would not have happened without the Idea. They know this and understand it better than us. The author does not in vain mention inferno. We believe it or not, but it is, at least in the soul of each of us. The communist idea, was able and created a man who was able to defeat absolute evil. And first of all in yourself, and then the external. It was because of the internal victory over the abyss that our ancestors, despite everything the Germans did, remained human. Yes, Vladislav, it is not in vain that Russia is considered to be a hotbed of communism there. It is people in our country, no matter what nationality they are, capable of the feat of internal and external. Well, and we hope to get up again.
      2. Mikado
        Mikado 20 January 2018 13: 22 New
        10
        During this breakthrough, Gil received serious injuries, from which he died.

        Gil Rodionov is buried in the village of Ushachi, Vitebsk region, there is also a museum of the partisan movement and a monument to the ghetto. I was at his grave - a sanatorium in which I rested in the summer and wrote "Knights from Polotsk" located eight kilometers from the village. Many partisans are buried there, even more buried in the breakthrough site, where the Gil brigade was almost completely destroyed. Former traitors have repaid their homeland debt to the end. God willing, I’ll write - I made a lot of photos. In general, I wanted to start writing from this .... In general, the places are magical. Who is from the North-West - I recommend a trip. Good treatment, delicious food, fishing, forest - just beauty! good
      3. bandabas
        bandabas 20 January 2018 15: 02 New
        +1
        It is not a matter of mass heroism, but of each individual person and his entourage (classmates, colleagues, workers and loved ones). Another thing is that in our country this is very pronounced. Till.
  3. Olgovich
    Olgovich 20 January 2018 07: 20 New
    15
    The fact remains: in WWII NOBODY fought against their own, in WWII, more than a million. And that says something. And only then, when it became clear that the Nazis wanted precisely the destruction of the country and the people, the flow dried up.
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 20 January 2018 07: 47 New
      22
      And where did you read in the article that you "fought"? Miser, in fact, and the vast majority escaped death in concentration camps, joining the ROA. Part of the same cowardice went to the police, because, in the occupied territories, life was a little better than in the death camp.
      Well, the fact that you justify the traitors is clear from your medical history on the site. Waiting now: fool fool foolOlgovich, laughing
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 20 January 2018 08: 18 New
        13
        The trouble with all the traitors is only one thing: THEY LOSED! If traitors win - they are HEROES!
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 20 January 2018 09: 42 New
          +8
          Quote: kalibr
          The trouble with all the traitors is only one thing: THEY LOSED!

          Not in this, but in the fact that they betrayed the interests of their country for the sake of the enemy and thereby became the enemies of "their" country. Would they win or win - not they, but those whom they served.
        2. avva2012
          avva2012 20 January 2018 10: 38 New
          14
          Judas was given thirty pieces of silver for the betrayal of Christ. But I heard such an opinion that he betrayed for ideological reasons, and the money was not the main thing, he threw it away. The Old Testament says that the Messiah will come to save only the people of Israel. In the sermon of Christ, it sounds that anyone who believes in him will be saved. Cognitive dissonance occurred in Judas. Why, it's me. Betrayal takes place in the soul of a person, after which he cannot but win, not lose. Whatever, he did not justify him, what arguments he did not bring, what would not cover himself, he was already there, on an aspen with his tongue sticking out.
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 20 January 2018 17: 24 New
            0
            Quote: avva2012
            Judas was given thirty pieces of silver for the betrayal of Christ. But I heard such an opinion that he betrayed for ideological reasons, and the money was not the main thing, he threw it away. The Old Testament says that the Messiah will come to save only the people of Israel. In the sermon of Christ, it sounds that anyone who believes in him will be saved. Cognitive dissonance occurred in Judas. Why, it's me. Betrayal takes place in the soul of a person, after which he cannot but win, not lose. Whatever, he did not justify him, what arguments he did not bring, what would not cover himself, he was already there, on an aspen with his tongue sticking out.

            The Sermon on the Mount of Jesus explicitly prohibits the “conversion” of other nations: Matthew 10: 5
            Jesus sent these twelve, and commanded them, saying: Do not go on the way to the Gentiles, and do not enter the city of Samaryan; but go first to the lost sheep of the house of Israel
            Do not give sanctuary to the dogs and do not throw your pearls before the pigs, so that they do not trample it under their feet and, turning, do not tear you to pieces Mt. 7: 6
            The bans are connected with the power of Herod, who came from the Edomites, a people who were once forcibly transferred to Judaism (under Alexander Yanai).
        3. Serg koma
          Serg koma 20 January 2018 11: 16 New
          +2
          Quote: kalibr
          The trouble with all the traitors is only one thing: THEY LOSED! If traitors win - they are HEROES!

          Type “Ivan Dobrobab” in the search, the materials of the military prosecutor’s office - after the betrayal, after the defeat of the Germans, he tried to break out into “heroes”, and in the film “28 Panfilov’s” he succeeded ....
          On August 14, 1989, on the basis of the conclusion of the Main Military Prosecutor's Office, he was denied rehabilitation: “Dobrobabin was legally convicted, and there are no grounds for his rehabilitation”
          .
          On September 17, 1992, the Prosecutor General’s Office of Ukraine also concluded that Ivan Dobrobabin was soundly convicted and not subject to rehabilitation.

          On March 26, 1993, the Plenum of the Supreme Court of Ukraine, having examined the conclusion of the GPU, overturned the court decisions with respect to Dobrobabin, the criminal proceedings were terminated on the basis of paragraph 2 of Art. 6 Code of Criminal Procedure of Ukraine for the lack of corpus delicti. On May 11, 1993, the Armed Forces of Ukraine issued Ivan Dobrobabin a certificate of rehabilitation No. 7-48n92.

          . September 29, 1996 the Chief Military Prosecutor of the Russian Federation concluded: the fault of Dobrobabin I.E. treason of the motherland is confirmed by the evidence gathered in the case and in accordance with the Law of the Russian Federation “On the rehabilitation of victims of political repression” of October 18, 1991, is not subject to rehabilitation. Since the Plenum of the Supreme Court of Ukraine adopted the decision on the Dobrobabin case contrary to the requirements of the Law of the Russian Federation “On the rehabilitation of victims of political repressions,” it is not valid in the territory of the Russian Federation, and I.E. Dobrobabin reinstatement of rights to awards is not entitled.

          And there were probably not a few like Dobrobab ...
          1. sd68
            sd68 22 January 2018 01: 50 New
            0
            Dobrobabin did not need to get into the heroes, he was already a Hero of the Soviet Union.
            By decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR of July 21, 1942, for the exemplary performance of the combat missions of the command and the courage and heroism shown to Sergeant Dobrobabin, he was posthumously awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union.
        4. iouris
          iouris 20 January 2018 12: 28 New
          +6
          Quote: kalibr
          If traitors win - they are HEROES!

          A traitor cannot be a hero by definition. In addition, wars are fair and unjust. The side that fights for progress wins. Hero - must stand on the side of progress. If the Nazi is a hero, then stop the Earth, I wish to get off. During the civil war, the participants do not betray, but are determined.
          1. Mikado
            Mikado 20 January 2018 13: 30 New
            +8
            He's right. Regrettably from the point of view of ethics and patriotism, from the point of view of logic, the victors write history. Let's take a small example - Paul I began to be rehabilitated only in the early 2000s, before that everyone considered him an oligophrenic. Because his story was written by his own killers! am
            I had a case in my life a couple of years ago when a friend who once lived in Germany stated: "It would be better if the Germans conquered us! Would live like people! "An adult, lives in St. Petersburg, over forty! To which I replied:"In the best case, you would then, thanks to its natural beauty, graze pigs. And my great-grandfather died, I don’t drink love for the Germans". Apparently, nobody explained to her about the Ost Plan. request with respect, hi
        5. Alexander Greene
          Alexander Greene 20 January 2018 17: 26 New
          +4
          Quote: kalibr
          The trouble with all the traitors is only one thing: THEY LOSED! If traitors win - they are HEROES!

          You are mistaken, dear, the phenomenon you called, is called "King for a day"
      2. verner1967
        verner1967 20 January 2018 08: 54 New
        +7
        Quote: avva2012
        and the vast majority escaped death in concentration camps by joining the ROA.

        the carrot and stick method, in prison camps there is no honey everywhere, and propaganda was strong, nowhere on the Nazi posters you will find the expression "Kill the Russian!" everywhere calls for the fight against Jewish Bolshevism. In the realities of this “struggle against Jew-Bolshevism,” many saw the light and sided with the partisans, having killed their German commanders. Nobody defends traitors here, they just weren’t alone, because they did not recognize Soviet power, while others (and there were many) were party and Soviet functionaries and activists.
        Interesting photos: surrendering Red Army soldiers in full gear, a captured commissar ... why would it be in such an article?
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 20 January 2018 10: 42 New
          12
          No wonder it is said that the motherland, mother. Therefore, it does not matter who is the father, i.e., what kind of power in the country. He took a weapon, put on someone else's uniform, everything, hello relatives, you are a traitor. And everyone has an excuse, like a natural hole.
          1. verner1967
            verner1967 20 January 2018 11: 05 New
            +4
            Quote: avva2012
            put on someone else’s uniform

            so they just refused to wear this uniform))) they had a Russian uniform, photos are attached
            Quote: avva2012
            states motherland mother

            Quote: avva2012
            it doesn’t matter who the father is, that is, what power is in the country.

            Well, yes, so they fought for Russia against this government (at least they wanted to), but when they saw how the Nazis did it, they decided to leave them. The Reds did not regret the civilian Russian people.
            1. Boris55
              Boris55 20 January 2018 11: 10 New
              +5
              Quote: verner1967
              Well, yes, so they fought for Russia against this government (at least they wanted to), but when they saw how the Nazis did it, they decided to leave them.

              You only confirmed the saying: "Betrayed once, betray and twice."
              1. verner1967
                verner1967 20 January 2018 19: 40 New
                +2
                Quote: Boris55
                "Betrayed once, betrayed twice."

                not always, it is human nature to make mistakes and draw conclusions.
            2. avva2012
              avva2012 20 January 2018 11: 22 New
              10
              This is what the Russian people, they did not regret? Who flogged this people?
              Yes, in its entirety, at first, the liberators dressed in the form of English production, in 19, and then on the “Russian form”, they clung to the symbols of a non-existent state in 41-45. Further, they went to serve the Americans in civilian suits. What matters is not form, but content. The content was stinking, as it is now.
              1. verner1967
                verner1967 20 January 2018 19: 43 New
                +4
                Quote: avva2012
                This is what the Russian people, they did not regret? Who flogged this people?

                and who shot the hostages and officers who came to the registration who did not accept the "charms" of the Soviet regime, peasants and sailors? Fell ... what a cruel punishment !!!
                1. Looking for
                  Looking for 20 January 2018 20: 23 New
                  +5
                  And where is the documentary evidence?
                2. avva2012
                  avva2012 21 January 2018 07: 41 New
                  +4
                  Repeatedly cited evidence of "white" terror. Denikin himself wrote about the fact that the Cossacks broke down due to snooping. Terror, robbery, violence perpetrated by the "white liberators", their accomplices were not ashamed to ascribe to the "red", not for nothing that your spiritual leader said, "the more monstrous the lie, the more they will believe in it."
        2. Serg koma
          Serg koma 20 January 2018 10: 52 New
          11
          Quote: verner1967
          captive commissar ... why would it be in such an article?

          More attentively. He (the “commissioner" in your opinion) is separately from the rest, under direct protection, without an overcoat, although the rank and file in pea jackets ... Next - study the uniform and insignia, in particular sleeve patches
          And the "commissar" turns into a lieutenant, on the buttonholes we can only assume (lack of "clarity"), infantry units. belay
          With "expert comments" - take at least a brief excursion into history. For the Power that you hate fiercely, the Soviet people went to the Feat.
          1. verner1967
            verner1967 20 January 2018 11: 12 New
            +5
            Quote: Serg Koma
            And the "commissar" turns into a lieutenant

            upon closer examination, the “lieutenant” turns into a commissar, since with a larger increase on the sleeve, the so-called "argument"
            Quote: Serg Koma
            It is located separately from the rest, under direct protection, without an overcoat, although the rank and file in pea jackets.

            those. Do you think that he is not a prisoner? And then who?
            Quote: Serg Koma
            For the Power that you hate fiercely, the Soviet people went to the Feat.

            do you think the homeland is only power? Those emigrants who joined the ranks of resistance or raised funds to help the Red Army, were also for the Bolsheviks? And what does this power cost without Russia?
            1. Serg koma
              Serg koma 20 January 2018 12: 29 New
              +7
              Quote: verner1967
              upon closer examination, the “lieutenant” turns into a commissar, since with a larger increase on the sleeve, the so-called "argument"

              Are you getting out ??? laughing Do not pretend to be true.
              Quote: verner1967
              And what does this power cost without Russia?

              In one trench, Soviet citizens fought against a common enemy. And their homeland was one of the USSR.
              Quote: verner1967
              Those emigrants who joined the ranks of resistance or raised funds to help the Red Army, were also for the Bolsheviks?

              Anton Ivanovich Denikin is my class enemy, but I take off my hat for his position during World War II. If you consider my personal attitude to the white general Denikin, and the red Vlasov - guess who I treat with great respect. And do not dump the emigrants into a heap, resistance and financial assistance - not only emigrants helped the Soviet Union as they could.
              1. Rastas
                Rastas 20 January 2018 18: 31 New
                +4
                And why should Denikin be respected. He did nothing to help. He refused to cooperate with the Reich. What a hero. But he refused to cooperate with the Soviet residency, although they offered, but General Skoblin at one time agreed without war. Denikin also refused to cooperate with the Black Chapel organization, which also repeatedly went to the general. In addition, after the war, he wrote letters to American politicians to prevent the Soviets from issuing captured Cossacks and Vlasovites who fought on the side of Hitler. And do you respect him?
                1. Serg koma
                  Serg koma 20 January 2018 21: 04 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Rastas
                  He did nothing to help. He refused to cooperate with the Reich.

                  I will personally say it from myself. I did not know if I could get up from the trench to attack the machine guns, while in the occupied territory I could refuse to cooperate against the class enemy ... That's why I Respect People capable of the Act (not even heroic).
              2. verner1967
                verner1967 20 January 2018 19: 49 New
                +5
                Quote: Serg Koma
                Are you getting out ??? Do not pretend to be true.

                and enlarge the photo and admit that I am lacking the right strength of mind?
                Quote: Serg Koma
                In one trench, Soviet citizens fought against a common enemy. And their homeland was one of the USSR.

                even those born before the 17th year? The homeland is a country, not a state, for power is changing, but the country remains.
                Quote: Serg Koma
                If you consider my personal attitude to the white general Denikin, and the red Vlasov - guess who I treat with great respect.

                I have the same position
                Quote: Serg Koma
                And do not dump the emigrants into a heap, resistance and financial assistance - not only emigrants helped the Soviet Union as they could.

                and now I'm talking about immigrants and dumping nobody in a heap. They (emigrants) fought both in the resistance and in the troops of the allies, and helped financially.
                1. Serg koma
                  Serg koma 20 January 2018 20: 59 New
                  +5
                  Quote: verner1967
                  and enlarge the photo and admit

                  So first try to FIND a nonexistent "argument", and the photo in the studio (the location of the star), folds and a hole / spot will not count in the offset. Unscrew as it is not original, only unfounded statements laughing
                  1. avva2012
                    avva2012 21 January 2018 07: 45 New
                    +5
                    And he has one virtue, "lying without blushing", "white".
                    1. Serg koma
                      Serg koma 21 January 2018 08: 56 New
                      +3
                      Quote: avva2012
                      "lying without blushing", "white".

                      drinks
                      1. avva2012
                        avva2012 21 January 2018 12: 29 New
                        +1
                        Mutually, dear drinks
                  2. verner1967
                    verner1967 21 January 2018 10: 37 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Serg Koma
                    creases and a hole / spot will not count towards the offset.

                    you generally thought. when did you write it? The stars were paired so that they would not be visible, but on the voto trace is visible. Maybe I should look in another photo in the grass, where did he throw this star?
                2. Serg koma
                  Serg koma 20 January 2018 21: 16 New
                  +2
                  Quote: verner1967
                  enlarge photo

                  Here is the largest resolution on the Internet https: //xn--h1aagokeh.xn--p1ai/wp-content/uploads
                  / 2015/07/5.jpg
                  3000x1895 SEEK laughing
                  1. verner1967
                    verner1967 21 January 2018 10: 55 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Serg Koma
                    Here is the biggest resolution on the internet

                    no need to show broken links, but it’s difficult to increase it yourself or development does not allow it?
                    сравните с http://1941-1945.at.ua/publ/1-1-0-44
                    do not see the traces of the star it is necessary to try
                    1. Serg koma
                      Serg koma 21 January 2018 11: 49 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Serg Koma
                      Quote: verner1967
                      Quote: Serg Koma
                      Here is the biggest resolution on the internet

                      no need to show broken links, but it’s difficult to increase it yourself or development does not allow it?
                      сравните с http://1941-1945.at.ua/publ/1-1-0-44
                      do not see the traces of the star it is necessary to try

                      You see the “STAR”, go at least a hint of it in the form of burnt out fabric, places of “lines”, etc. - So you see "Soviet THREAT!" To see what is NOT - it is necessary to try, all-seeing laughing
                3. Serg koma
                  Serg koma 20 January 2018 21: 25 New
                  +3
                  Quote: verner1967
                  and now I'm talking about immigrants and dumping nobody in a heap. They (emigrants) fought both in the resistance and in the troops of the allies, and helped financially.

                  The Red Army was part of the Normandy Neman unit known to you, for whom and against whom did they fight? Or are you going (I repeat again) to unite ALL of those who resist (in all forms) fascism into one bunch of "fighters against tyranny" temporarily helping Stalin because of circumstances?
                  1. verner1967
                    verner1967 21 January 2018 10: 39 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Serg Koma
                    for whom and against whom did they fight?

                    Well, for whom? For the Soviet power? Oh really? laughing
                    1. Serg koma
                      Serg koma 21 January 2018 12: 01 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Serg Koma
                      Normandy Neman unit, for whom and against whom did they fight?

                      Quote: verner1967
                      Well, for whom? For the Soviet power? Oh really?

                      Fought against a common enemy, but note, as part of the Red Army (although they could have been in another place, in another country), that is, as part of the "Bolshevik hordes" according to your terminology, and since they were part of the Red Army - they carried out the Orders of the SOVIET AUTHORITY and were under Her leadership - From here draw conclusions about the French volunteers who fought at least de jure, at least de facto for Soviet power! And you can’t understand such common truths, or don’t you perceive stubbornness?
              3. Looking for
                Looking for 20 January 2018 20: 28 New
                -1
                A worthy opponent is worthy of respect, but if the enemy does not surrender, they destroy him.
      3. Olgovich
        Olgovich 20 January 2018 10: 24 New
        +5
        Quote: avva2012
        And where did you read in the article that you "fought"?

        In the article. And not only.
        Quote: avva2012
        Well, and the fact that you justify the traitors,

        Not me, but YOU justify their betrayal, you yourself are reading something:
        Quote: avva2012
        Mizerin fact, and the vast majority saved from death in concentration camps, joining the ROA. Part, for the same cowardice, went to the police, because, in the occupied territories, life was, a little better

        Quote: avva2012
        it is clear from history lol your site

        Russian forgot? yes
        Quote: avva2012
        . Waiting, now: Olgovich,

        Whom? Arctic fox? hi
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 20 January 2018 10: 46 New
          12
          Not, Olgovich, new smiles from you and another production of your brain. They didn’t let us down, it was funny. What else are you producing?
    2. sibiryouk
      sibiryouk 20 January 2018 08: 28 New
      +9
      The First World War was a different type of war, unlike the 2nd. It was not a war to destroy the state itself, the nation as such. In World War I there was no resistance movement in the occupied territories, as in the 2nd. But many were surrendered, most likely so as not to participate in the war anymore, and while sitting in captivity, wait for the end of this world massacre!
      1. Naputeon bonaput
        Naputeon bonaput 20 January 2018 09: 46 New
        +5
        The civil war can also be called a war of fighter type. The best representatives of the Russian people were destroyed, expelled, repressed without any doubt.
        1. Alexander Greene
          Alexander Greene 20 January 2018 18: 03 New
          +6
          Quote: Naputeon Bonaput
          The civil war can also be called a war of fighter type. The best representatives of the Russian people were destroyed, expelled, repressed without any doubt.

          The civil war was class, the workers and peasants expelled their oppressors from the country, which the people could not be attributed to the best representatives of the Russian people.
          1. verner1967
            verner1967 20 January 2018 19: 51 New
            +4
            Quote: Alexander Green
            workers and peasants expelled their oppressors from the country

            as well as workers in culture, art, the creative intelligentsia and scientists. And then they bought technology for gold, invited experts and engineers from abroad.
            1. Looking for
              Looking for 20 January 2018 20: 40 New
              +5
              Just don’t need to give out private as general. YES, at a certain stage. Until the SOVIET shots were prepared !!! scientific and technical thoughts, they invited and paid. But at the very minimum. Or do you think that you had to call back, who hated the Soviet regime?
              1. verner1967
                verner1967 21 January 2018 10: 52 New
                +2
                Quote: Seeker
                It was necessary to call back, who hated the Soviet regime?

                why was there such a power that they hate?
            2. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene 21 January 2018 20: 56 New
              +4
              Quote: verner1967
              as well as workers in culture, art, the creative intelligentsia and scientists. And then they bought technology for gold, invited experts and engineers from abroad.

              Thus, the anti-Soviet talkers from the creative intelligentsia thereby saved their lives, while engineers and scientists practically all remained in Soviet Russia.
              Technology was bought because in tsarist Russia, science and technology lagged behind Western ones, because almost all of its industry belonged to Western owners, who had no reason to install new equipment and develop technologies in a country where there is cheap labor, they have huge profits received.
              The Soviet government, on the other hand, has launched a program of industrialization of a country so large-scale in scope and grandiose in terms of time that no other country, including tsarist Russia, could handle.
              Soviet power was popular, it was hated only by those who did not want to come to terms with the fact that they had lost the opportunity to parasitize on workers.
              1. RUSS
                RUSS 23 January 2018 16: 11 New
                0
                Quote: Alexander Green
                The Soviet government, on the other hand, has launched a program of industrialization of a country so large-scale in scope and grandiose in terms of time that no other country, including tsarist Russia, could handle.




                Historians differently assess the contribution of this person to the history of our country. On the one hand, his name is associated with mass repression. On the other hand, during his reign, the Soviet Union became an industrialized country, which allowed us to win the Second World War. But how did the USSR from a backward agrarian country in just a few years be able to turn into an industrial giant? Remember the famous phrase "He took the country with a plow, but left with the atomic bomb"? "Komsomolskaya Pravda" opens pages of a story not described in school textbooks. And the beginning of industrialization came just at the time when Joseph Vissarionovich became Secretary General.

                Two components of success

                “We are 50-100 years behind advanced countries. We have to run this distance in 10 years. Either we do it or they crush us ”- such a statement was made by Joseph Stalin in February 1931 at a meeting of business executives. He perfectly understood: The Land of Soviets needs, as it is now fashionable to say, modernization. And to carry it out, it is not enough to gather a bunch of people, give them shovels and force them to build a metallurgical plant.

                Any modernization is impossible without two things. First, capital must come to the country. And he is not taken from the air. Either we earn it ourselves, or we borrow money. Secondly, someone more intelligent should share experience. That is, come to our country and build a factory, as well as teach our engineers. There was enough cheap labor in the country. But competent engineers were not enough. So, knowledge, skill and, most importantly, technology had to be taken from behind a hill.

                Factories built with the help of foreigners


                Versailles world to help us

                Any crisis in developed countries provides a unique opportunity for developing countries. It is explained simply: big business is afraid of crisis like fire. At this time, entrepreneurs just stand on their feet. Therefore, the only way out is to look on the planet for those places where their investments can give the maximum return. That is why large companies love developing countries so much. Where the development potential is higher (in other words, where the country is poorer), the return on any invested dollar will be stronger.

                Stalin was lucky. Western countries (the main source of scientific and technological thought at that time) were in a difficult situation. Therefore, they were ready to agree to any work. Joseph Vissarionovich instantly understood this. As a result, Soviet industrialization can be divided into two periods. In the 1920s, the “Red Colossus” exploited Germany’s post-war weakness. And in the 1930s - the Great Depression in the United States.


                Let's start with the Germans. After the enslaving Versailles peace in 1919, Germany was forbidden to have a large army and to develop military industry. Here the Germans went around. They began to conduct secret negotiations with the Soviet Union, and then build industrial facilities in our country. This was done by the so-called Sondergroup R.

                “The Germans are the only outlet for us through which we can study the achievements in military affairs abroad,” wrote Jerome Uborevich, chief of armaments of the Workers 'and Peasants' Red Army (RKKA), to Stalin at that time.

                The scheme was simple. The Germans built factories with us and placed their orders on them. Some of the planes and guns were left in Russia, and some were taken to their homes. There are plenty of examples of their work (see graphics). After Hitler came to power in Germany, cooperation with Russia was suspended, but the factories remained.
                1. RUSS
                  RUSS 23 January 2018 16: 14 New
                  0
                  The next stage of industrialization can be called American. In 1929, when the Great Depression in the United States became a reality, eminent architect Albert Kahn was left without work. He was known for building the Ford plant in Detroit. And in the 1930s he drew up a plan for industrial modernization in Russia.

                  Over the course of several years, more than 500 factories were built at an accelerated pace in the USSR. According to some estimates, this cost the Union $ 2 billion (at the current rate it is almost $ 250 billion). The hired American engineers did not particularly bother. They transferred finished projects of factories from the USA and brought their equipment. For example, the Moscow AZLK plant was modeled on Ford assembly plants.

                  Naturally, the fact that foreigners were building plants and factories for us was not advertised by anyone. Albert Kahn’s branch in Moscow bore the Soviet name - Gosproektstroy. 25 American and 2,5 thousand Soviet engineers worked in it, who studied Western science of the design and construction of large industrial facilities. The branch of the German company Demag in Moscow was also encrypted and bore the name of the Central Bureau of Heavy Engineering.
                  1. RUSS
                    RUSS 23 January 2018 16: 17 New
                    0
                    Americans and Germans would build even more plants in the USSR. But the Union in 1932 began to run out of currency, the main source of which was the export of grain. And Stalin decided: the Moor did his job - the Moor can leave. Soviet officials, under various (often far-fetched) pretexts, broke off contracts with foreign firms. The Russians very quickly adopted from the Americans and Germans how to build industrial facilities. For example, the first blast furnace of Magnitogorsk was laid out 2,5 months completely under the supervision of American workers, and the fourth took less than three weeks. And the help of Western specialists was no longer useful.
                    1. Alexander Greene
                      Alexander Greene 23 January 2018 22: 30 New
                      +1
                      Well, you see, dear Russ, you understand everything, therefore, Glory to the Great Stalin that he managed to play on the weaknesses of capitalism and raise the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics to unprecedented heights!
          2. RUSS
            RUSS 20 January 2018 20: 40 New
            +4
            Quote: Alexander Green
            The civil war was class, the workers and peasants expelled their oppressors from the country, which the people could not be attributed to the best representatives of the Russian people.

            In your native Ukraine, the Dnieper hydroelectric station was built with the help of the Americans, because there weren’t enough of their engineers, and there was no equipment, because the best "technical minds" have flowed abroad.
            1. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene 21 January 2018 21: 01 New
              +2
              Quote: RUSS
              In your native Ukraine, the Dnieper hydroelectric station was built with the help of the Americans, because there weren’t enough of their engineers, and there was no equipment, because the best "technical minds" have flowed abroad.

              Raise your eyes and read the commentary preceding yours.
        2. Looking for
          Looking for 20 January 2018 20: 31 New
          +2
          Without you, this list will be incomplete.
          1. RUSS
            RUSS 21 January 2018 09: 23 New
            +3
            Quote: Seeker
            Without you, this list will be incomplete.

            Please justify your absurd
            1. Serg koma
              Serg koma 21 January 2018 10: 08 New
              +4
              Quote: RUSS
              Quote: Seeker
              Without you, this list will be incomplete.

              Please justify your absurd

              How much foreign equipment was in industrial production in RI? How many inspectors worked in RI? How many “citizens” of the Republic of Ingushetia had “dual” citizenship / citizenship?
              Quote: RUSS
              In your native Ukraine, the Dnieper hydroelectric station was built with the help of the Americans, because there weren’t enough of their engineers, and there was no equipment, because the best "technical minds" have flowed abroad.

              How many state district power plants, at the Dnieper hydroelectric power station level, were built in RI by DOMESTIC SPECIALISTS? Anticipating your question: RussoBalt, ZiS, Gas ....
              STATING about the "leak", give stat data about those who have not leaked, and continued to serve YOUR Homeland, as well as about the participation of incapital in the RI industry.
              And so - you have only regret about Sikorsky, Zvorykin, etc., and at the same time you can not compare it with today, and with RI.
              So it turns out that you are like a kaklostan at the moment - “Putin is to blame for everything !!!”, only you replace “Putin” with “Lenin”!
    3. avt
      avt 20 January 2018 10: 31 New
      14
      Quote: Olgovich
      The fact remains:

      What to lie in Chubais about
      Quote: Olgovich
      in WWII, more than a million.

      Attributing to the combat units “hevi”, and even attributing them to more than 800 thousand, they cannot be pulled and with some slyness in lowering the specifics, it is painted by Müller-Hildebrant, for example. Here on the Land and SS troops
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 20 January 2018 10: 40 New
        +5
        Quote: avt
        Quote: Olgovich
        The fact remains:
        What to lie in Chubais about
        Quote: Olgovich
        in WWII, more than a million.

        You, my dear, a man would read an ARTICLE for a start:
        Author
        To begin with, the most plausible figure is 1,2 million people
        и
        Quote: avt
        Attributing to the combat units, “Khivi", and ascribing them to more than 800 thousand can not be pulled

        "Pulled" lol
        1. avt
          avt 20 January 2018 11: 02 New
          11
          Quote: Olgovich
          You, my dear, a man would read an ARTICLE for a start:

          We have read more than one, including the apologists for your crystal-baking - Chubais and Popov, about how Vlasov made his way to Leningrad ... to lead the resistance to the Stalin regime.
          Quote: Olgovich
          To begin with, the most plausible figure is 1,2 million people

          Quote: Olgovich
          "Pulled"

          You on ,, hevi? ”Yes. By the way, in the SOVIET film“ The Fate of a Man, ”the hero performed by Bondarchuk was in this status in captivity after a concentration camp. Yes - they worked, well, not everyone broke into the partisans, and after the verification they returned to civilian life. Unlike the White Guard punitive. No wonder that in the same Yugoslavia they surprised the Serbs who said to them, “What are you worried about?” The Russians are coming "They knew that many, on a rotational basis, would punish the answer on the Eastern Front.
          1. avt
            avt 20 January 2018 12: 28 New
            +9
            By the way! Khlebobochniki and
            Quote: Olgovich
            You, my dear, a man would read an ARTICLE for a start:

            In particular, for the ROCA and the appeal in 1938
            Your Excellency! Honorable Mr. Reich Chancellor!
            signed by
            The Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad,
            Metropolitan Anastasius. "Church life."
            where in particular
            ..... We know from reliable sources that a believing Russian people, moaning under the yoke of slavery and waiting for its deliverer, constantly offers prayers to God that He will save you, guide you and give you all-powerful help. Your feat for the German people and the greatness of the German Empire has made you an example worthy of imitation and an example of how to love your people and your homeland, how to stand for your national treasures and eternal values. For even these latter find their sanctification and perpetuation in our Church .....
            Reluctance to proclaim nothing? Besides
            Quote: Olgovich
            "Pulled"
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 21 January 2018 08: 17 New
              +3
              Quote: avt
              Reluctance to proclaim nothing?

              Hunting! lol And even hear the response gurgle about the capture of Paris on June 15.

              "Telegram
              Moscow, 18 June 1940 - 1.40
              Received June 18 1940 - 4.00

              1167 No. of 17 June
              Very urgent!

              Molotov invited me to his office tonight and expressed it to me the warmest congratulations of the Soviet government on the brilliant success of the German armed forces.


              И
              Quote: Olgovich
              "Pulled"
              yes
              I'm on a figure yes
              1. avt
                avt 21 January 2018 12: 05 New
                +3
                Quote: Olgovich
                "Telegram
                Moscow, 18 June 1940 - 1.40

                bully Are we cheating little by little? But you don’t need to drive a fool, you all understand very well and the more so the difference between Molotov’s telegram and frankly KHOLUISKY’s and cannibalistic address by Anthony, who says that he’s standing with a placard - "Hitler is the liberator of Russia." didn’t read “Minekampf” in the Russian Orthodox Church Center and, while sitting in Berlin, didn’t understand what Hitler was preparing for the USSR? If you don’t really see the difference, then my opinion about your intellect was clearly ... overpriced, to put it mildly.
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 21 January 2018 12: 13 New
                  +2
                  Quote: avt
                  Are we cheating little by little? It's just that you don’t have to drive the fool, you all understand very well, and even more so the difference between Molotov’s telegram and frankly KHOLUISKY and, in fact, Anthony’s cannibalism

                  If you do not catch the difference between the weight OFFICIAL GREETINGS OF THE GOVERNMENT countries and statements non-governmental organizationthen
                  Quote: avt
                  my opinion about your intellect was clearly ... overpriced, to say the least.

                  hi
                  1. avt
                    avt 21 January 2018 12: 19 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    non-governmental organization

                    Have you decided to switch from cheating to doping? It’s your business to launder a black dog, like Igor Chubais and Vlasov Popov, but you won’t wash one and all., By the way, the NTS collaborated directly with the Nazis, it’s also a kind of “public” and certainly not a state organization, as well as the OUN. Good you have the monarchists iconostasis drew. Or maybe immediately on their main-Adolf Aloizovich begin to pray?
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 21 January 2018 13: 50 New
                      +2
                      Quote: avt
                      Decided on cheating go to dope ?

                      Where am I to you! hi
                      Quote: avt
                      A business yours - launder a black dog like Igor Chubais and Vlasov Popov, but you won’t wash one and all.,

                      What is it?! belay fool
                      Quote: avt
                      By the way - NTS collaborated directly with the Nazis, also of the type ,, public "and certainly not a state organization, as well as the OUN

                      And?
                      А state collaborated with the Nazis and would have continued if not for June 22nd.
                      Quote: avt
                      Good you have monarchists iconostasis drew Or maybe you’ll start to pray at once on their main Adolf Aloizovich?

                      Drawn by yourself, and pray. yes
          2. igordok
            igordok 20 January 2018 13: 37 New
            +4
            Quote: avt
            By the way, in the SOVIET film, The Fate of Man, the hero performed by Bondarchuk was in this status in captivity after a concentration camp.

            Indicative is the film "Road Check" 1971g.
            1. Mikado
              Mikado 20 January 2018 13: 43 New
              +6
              Indicative is the film "Road Check" 1971g.

              which for a long time "lay on the shelf." Despite the fact that the “Vlasovites” and other “Cossacks” got off relatively cheaply, no one wanted to mention them. what
              A little distracted: in almost all military films, the high ranks of the SS (Stirlitz and Müller, for example. And not only in our films!) Go in black uniform. But during the war no one wore it! Everyone wore uniforms, and the supply of black tunic was transferred to the uniform of the "auxiliary police"! Those very good cops. angry Sheathed the edges of the sleeves with blue cloth - and voila! hi
            2. iouris
              iouris 20 January 2018 16: 19 New
              +7
              The film contains only an indirect hint that the action takes place in the Pskov region. Pskov is the capital of the Vlasov "movement" and on May 22.05.1943, XNUMX, a parade of Vlasov was held to mark the second anniversary. The parade took place earlier, because a "decisive offensive" was being prepared near Kursk and Belgorod.
              After 1991, obvious attempts were made to whitewash the Vlasovites. Vlasov was presented as a project of Beria and Stalin in the event of a separate peace and the formation of the protectorate "Russia" in the territory of the USSR conquered by Hitler (approximately to the Urals).
              1. igordok
                igordok 20 January 2018 18: 51 New
                +4
                Quote: iouris
                Pskov - the capital of the Vlasov "movement"

                On what grounds do you think Pskov is the capital of the Vlasov "movement". Vlasovites - the so-called The 1 guards brigade of the ROA, in number equal to the battalion, were located in the village of Stremutka, 15 km from Pskov. 22 June (not May) 1943 they held a march in the city of Pskov, where for the only time, due to an oversight, they were given the tricolor. After some time, the “Vlasovites” rebellion arose. The riot was led by assistants of the standard bearer at the parade. Half of the "brigade" scattered among the partisans, and this formation was disbanded. White émigré officers led this “brigade”.
              2. Looking for
                Looking for 20 January 2018 20: 52 New
                +5
                Despite these posts, regardless of their position, academic degrees and titles would not hurt to pull up, as well as the subject of their "whitewashing" in 1946.
    4. Rastas
      Rastas 20 January 2018 18: 09 New
      +8
      Especially for Olgovich:
      In World War II there were fraternities with the Germans? No, but they were in WWI. In World War II were the demands of the world? No, but they were in WWI. In World War II there was an uprising of the Leningrad garrison? No, but in the WWI the Petrograd garrison revolted. In the Great Patriotic War was betrayal by the general of his Supreme? No. And in WWI, the generals denied the oath to their Supreme. Then how was it not a betrayal? the Germans occupied the Kingdom of Poland, the Baltic states, where they created governments under their control, and they recognized the power of the Germans. The Central Council of Ukraine agreed, in fact, allowing the occupation of its territory. Georgia went the same way. Moreover, all of them were afraid of the Bolsheviks and wanted to deal with them with the hands of the Germans. And in the Kingdom of Poland, the Baltic states, Ukraine, Georgia, Russian citizens lived, but it turns out that they betrayed.
  4. parusnik
    parusnik 20 January 2018 07: 56 New
    +5
    Actual article for today, thanks ....
    1. Mikado
      Mikado 20 January 2018 13: 55 New
      +8
      I think it’s worth considering the activities of the German "auxiliary police". A lot of blood on their hands. And put an alternative. Because the Soviet police bravely fought in the 41st year as part of their units, right in black overcoats! The policeman, who evacuated the values ​​either from Gatchina, or from Pavlovsk (I don’t remember), the Germans took alive and hanged. But he fulfilled the duty!
  5. EwgenyZ
    EwgenyZ 20 January 2018 07: 59 New
    +7
    Interesting article. In the XNUMXth century, Russia had a lot of things for the first time, both revolution and mass betrayal. The question is why? Why didn’t there be so many Jews when Napoleon came, wasn’t in Russian-Japanese, wasn’t in the Crimean when the Swedes fought and there were no Turks? Maybe because then there were no "teachers" of their own. The author somehow clumsily tries to shield the Bolsheviks, but the “Grocery world” spoils the whole “idyll” here ... And the argument that the “them” there also had the calaborants didn’t convince them: they always had it, we didn’t HAVE on such an "industrial" scale, until the nihilists came to power in Russia. Until the shrines of the Russian people were scolded, until the centuries-old foundations of Russia were crushed ... Therefore, it is not surprising that for many in emigration, hatred of Bolshevism turned out to be stronger than love for the Motherland ... As they say: You can understand, you can’t forgive! In the Great Patriotic War, now the Bolsheviks saved Russia, but the "sediment remained", this "sediment" and gave birth to traitors, already from the ranks of Soviet citizens. Therefore, we, today, need to learn from the history of the beginning of the XNUMXth century and not allow repetition, all the more so modern Vlasovites are on their way.
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 20 January 2018 08: 05 New
      +8
      Well, you Vlasovites are already here. The ideas are the same, the justification of betrayal, the same is no different from the "Appeal to the Peoples of Russia" by Vlasov. I'm not like that, I'm waiting for the tram. Yeah, the Bolsheviks are to blame for the fact that the soul has rotted.
      1. EwgenyZ
        EwgenyZ 20 January 2018 08: 47 New
        +6
        Quote: avva2012
        Yeah, the Bolsheviks are to blame for the fact that the soul has rotted.

        But, in fact, it was under the Bolsheviks that mass betrayal became a reality. Souls just do not "rot."
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 20 January 2018 10: 53 New
          +9
          The soul first rots, previously, before the body. Perhaps, if there had not been a war, then they would have quietly lived to the physical end. The war was a litmus test. Any major event is it. Take 91. All the rot got out. And who was with the soul, he remained with her. Read below Alexey's comment (parusnik), answer, kalibru.
        2. ALEA IACTA EST
          ALEA IACTA EST 20 January 2018 12: 47 New
          +1
          Ideas like Bolshevism or Nazism are a consequence, not a cause, of moral decay.
          1. avva2012
            avva2012 20 January 2018 13: 13 New
            +6
            Read logic, but don't write nonsense.
          2. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 20 January 2018 17: 45 New
            +3
            Quote: ALEA IACTA EST
            Ideas like Bolshevism or Nazism are a consequence, not a cause, of moral decay.

            Bolshevism is a consequence of the separation of the ruling elites from the people they oppressed. (intrinsic factor)
            Nazism is a consequence of the plight of the people who lost the imperialist war. (external factor)
            The idea of ​​Bolshevism is universal equality.
            The idea of ​​Nazism is national and racial superiority.
            Between these ideologies to put an equal sign is somehow not right.
            1. ALEA IACTA EST
              ALEA IACTA EST 20 January 2018 19: 28 New
              0
              Let the left, revolutionary and right, reactionary, radicals declare diametrically opposite goals, but their attitude towards people, the desire to interrupt the organic path of development of society, their destruction and distortion of the national culture, as well as the methods of political struggle and the implementation of their programs make it possible to conclude their equidistance from common sense.
        3. Sergey Sadchikov
          Sergey Sadchikov 20 January 2018 18: 55 New
          +4
          I’m wondering how concepts are being replaced, which means that in the Great Patriotic War, there was a mass betrayal for ideological reasons !!!! But the main thing is not mentioned that the Germans staged mass genocide in the occupied territories with a population of almost 100 million people, there wasn’t such a thing in the WWII, and therefore there was no widespread partisan movement. And the fact that only 1% of the population collaborated with the Germans in the occupied territories , says just the opposite, this is just a meager figure compared to the colossal trials that fell to everyone who was in the occupied territories of the USSR.
      2. RUSS
        RUSS 20 January 2018 10: 26 New
        +3
        Quote: avva2012
        . I'm not like that, I'm waiting for the tram. Yeah, the Bolsheviks are to blame for the fact that the soul has rotted.

        It’s not their fault, but many defectors were communists.
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 20 January 2018 11: 00 New
          12
          What are these "many", namely, defectors? And how many of them were compared with the number of dead Communists? And they entered the party before the fight, how is it? And it was known that only the communists would volunteer, but still, there were many who wanted to. It is not necessary to spoil for memory. The stake will become someday.
          Russian poetry: Communists, go! Alexander Mezhirov
          There is a military order
          Such words,
          For which only in heavy combat
          (And even then not always)
          Gets Rights
          Commander raising his company.

          I have long understood
          Military charter
          And under the full calculation
          Do not hunch for a long time.
          But, the pages of the charter are covered with holes,
          Of these words
          Still
          Not found
          Does not matter.

          Year Twenty
          Horses run wild gallop.
          Perekop.
          Echelons. Typhoid haze.
          An intervention bullet flying in the forehead -
          And do not stand under fire at the sixth stake.
          Regiment
          Overcoats
          Threw it on the wire, -
          But the machine gun is knocking on overcoat cloth.
          And then
          barely audible
          сказал
          Commissioner:
          - Communists, go ahead! Communists, go ahead!
          Summer morning
          A grenade fell into the grass
          Near Lviv
          The outpost lay in the ditch.
          Messerschmitts splashed gasoline
          in the blue -
          And do not stand under fire at the sixth stake.
          Burned bridges
          On the roads from Brest to Moscow.
          There were soldiers
          Looking away from the refugees.
          And on the towers
          Buried in the arable land "KB",
          Heavy raindrops were drying.
          And without a casing
          From Stalingrad apartments
          Bill Maxim
          And Rodimtsev felt the ice.
          And then
          barely audible
          сказал
          commander:
          - Communists, go ahead! Communists, go ahead!
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 20 January 2018 12: 41 New
            +4
            Quote: avva2012
            Russian poetry: Communists, go!

            This is also a communist wrote:

            I suggest
            Minina to melt,
            Pozharsky.
            Why do they need a pedestal?
            Enough for us
            Two shopkeepers praise,
            They are behind the shelves
            October found.

            By chance they
            We did not turn our necks.
            I know it would be a match.
            Think about it,
            They saved Russ!
            Maybe it would be better not to save?


            “30 days”, Moscow. 1930, 8, p. 66)
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 20 January 2018 13: 19 New
              +8
              You again did not understand what you wrote. You are not getting along with thinking, or what? What did two different people write about and how can these works be logically connected? Curved logic, this.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 20 January 2018 13: 42 New
                +3
                Quote: avva2012
                You again did not understand what you wrote

                You didn’t understand again: it’s not me, it’s YOU wrote. Both works. What is not clear?
                YOU, by the way, EXPLODED the tomb of Minin and Pozharsky. Russophiles, yes ....
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 20 January 2018 14: 57 New
                  11
                  I? Olgavich, see a doctor as well. Judging by what you write, you have a fever. Now, just SARS, the flu is spreading. Take care of your health.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 21 January 2018 07: 32 New
                    +3
                    Quote: avva2012
                    I AM?.

                    . Renounce that power- and remove the charge yes
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                    2. avva2012
                      avva2012 21 January 2018 15: 24 New
                      +2
                      It’s better to die. I wonder why the comment was deleted?
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 22 January 2018 07: 26 New
                        +1
                        Quote: avva2012
                        It’s better to die.

                        So GUILT!
                    3. avva2012
                      avva2012 22 January 2018 07: 50 New
                      +1
                      So GUILT!

                      You’d better find someone to play doctor with, since you fall into childhood.
      3. Olgovich
        Olgovich 20 January 2018 10: 47 New
        +4
        Quote: avva2012
        Yeah, the Bolsheviks are to blame for the fact that the soul has rotted.

        No, it’s not they SINGLE YEARS that drove their “truth” and “ideology” for 70 years, yes! fool
        Again, countless “enemies” are to blame for these white-furry, naive defenseless Bolsheviks. They wanted GOOD! And all so angry. Nasty ... lol laughing
        I'm not like that, I'm waiting for the tram. lol
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 20 January 2018 11: 26 New
          +9
          "But everyone is so evil. Nasty ..."
          Olgovich, I have a better opinion of you. And you?! belay
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 20 January 2018 11: 38 New
            +4
            Quote: avva2012
            Olgovich, I have a better opinion of you. And you?

            I didn’t understand: weren’t you fluffy, naive, defenseless, kind Bolsheviks who were deceived endlessly, betrayed by evil, ungrateful, nasty, not understanding their happiness living under their rule, citizens? request belay
            Or who are you? Where are you, now did the Bolsheviks share, dissolve, decompose? request
        2. Boris55
          Boris55 20 January 2018 11: 40 New
          +8
          Quote: Olgovich
          Where are you, now did the Bolsheviks share, dissolve, decompose?

          Under Stalin, all party meetings were open. He had the right to express his opinion both party and non-partisan. During the war, under the slogan "Communists Ahead," the entire "Stalin Call" was practically knocked out, the number of Trotskyists in the party began to prevail. With the coming of Trotskyist Khrushchev to power, party meetings became closed. The party broke away from the people and this is one of the reasons why the people did not defend the Secretary General, but supported Yeltsin, who challenged the snickering party nomenclature.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 20 January 2018 12: 10 New
            +4
            Quote: Boris55
            Under Stalin, all party meetings were open. He had the right to express his opinion both party and non-partisan.

            Not only did he have the right, but he was obliged to make a statement condemning the enemies of the people. yes
            Quote: Boris55
            th. During the war, under the slogan "Communists Ahead," the entire "Stalin Call" was practically knocked out, the number of Trotskyists in the party began to prevail.

            There was no "Stalinist appeal" is not listed as
            By the beginning of World War II in the armed forces of the USSR, there were 654 thousand. Communists, by January 1945 their number increased to 3 031 thousand. . And all 2,5 million who entered the Trotskyists ?!
            And why didn’t the party produce the Stalinists, but only the “Trotskyists?” belay Again, the enemies "made their way" ?! belay
            1. Boris55
              Boris55 20 January 2018 12: 24 New
              +7
              Quote: Olgovich
              Not only had the right, but also was obliged to make a condemnation of the enemies of the people

              Well, and you, as I understand it, the offspring of those very enemies of the people trying to whitewash them in our eyes? laughing
              Quote: Olgovich
              There was no "Stalinist appeal" is not listed as

              Stalin, Lenin, October - these are the names of the same process.

              Quote: Olgovich
              And why didn’t the party produce the Stalinists, but only the “Trotskyists?”

              Yes, because all the party leadership of the country (85%) were Trotskyists. Putin has the exact same situation today. He acts in the interests of the people. The people support him, and the rotten gasket with wings between them and the people, as always, crap.

              Quote: Olgovich
              by January 1945, their number increased to 3 031 thousand.

              But the point is that when they recruited everyone in a row, which ultimately led to the discrediting of the party.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 20 January 2018 12: 33 New
                +3
                Quote: Boris55
                Well, and you, as I understand it, the offspring of those very enemies of the people trying to whitewash them in our eyes?

                A- there were no "enemies of the people": there was no such term in the Criminal Code.
                And bizarre images, who cares?
                Quote: Boris55
                Yes, because the entire party leadership of the country (85%) were Trotskyists.

                For the hundredth time I ask: WHY did the party produce not so much. Bolsheviks, and defective ("Trotskyists") ?! Was it defective? lol
                1. Boris55
                  Boris55 20 January 2018 12: 39 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  A- there were no "enemies of the people": there was no such term in the Criminal Code.

                  Then what did you write about above? "... was obliged to make a condemnation of the enemies of the people" laughing
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  WHY the party did not produce Nast. Bolsheviks, and defective ("Trotskyists") ?!

                  Yes, because the Trotskyists (85% partyigenos) called the Trotskyists to the party and how they could discredit the Bolsheviks. Over the 40 years, their efforts in the Bolshevik Party have practically disappeared ... in my opinion, this is not the first time I have explained it to you.
                  1. Boris55
                    Boris55 20 January 2018 13: 03 New
                    +4
                    I will add. You know where, during the war, Khrushchev and Brezhnev were - here they are and the like, and they accepted someone who didn’t fall into the party.
                    1. RUSS
                      RUSS 20 January 2018 13: 35 New
                      +3
                      Quote: Boris55
                      I will add. You know where, during the war, Khrushchev and Brezhnev were - here they are and the like, and they accepted someone who didn’t fall into the party.

                      So who is to blame for collaboration? Again the same characters, poor Khrushchev, if he knew that these dogs were also hung on him laughing
                      1. Boris55
                        Boris55 20 January 2018 14: 29 New
                        +3
                        Quote: RUSS
                        So who is to blame for collaboration?

                        And where did you see that the boss would select his grave diggers as a team? In fact, during the war, the Trotskyists, given the experience of the “Stalinist recruitment,” conducted their recruitment into the party.
                  2. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 20 January 2018 13: 05 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Boris55
                    Then what did you write about above? "... was obliged to make a condemnation of the enemies of the people"

                    The meeting is not a court.
                    Quote: Boris55
                    Yes, because the Trotskyists (85% of the partyigenos) called the Trotskyists to the party and how they could discredit the Bolsheviks.

                    Until 1944, the Bolsheviks had the majority (Your words) HOW did they find themselves in the minority ?! Who prevented them from accepting the Bolsheviks?
                    Those. during the war years it was precisely the Trotskyists who were taken ?! belay
                    1. Boris55
                      Boris55 20 January 2018 14: 34 New
                      +3
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      The meeting is not a court.

                      Where am I saying something about the courts or the Criminal Code? laughing
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Until 1944, the Bolsheviks had the majority, (Your words) HOW did they find themselves in the minority ?!

                      And so it turned out that the updated desks were led by the right people ... They took it by number.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 21 January 2018 07: 36 New
                        +3
                        Quote: Boris55
                        And so it turned out that the updated desks were led by the right people ... They took it by number.

                        How so? Why were the Bolsheviks not accepted by the Bolsheviks ?!
            2. avva2012
              avva2012 20 January 2018 12: 52 New
              +8
              belay Olgavich, you, this smiley face. During the Second World War, 3 (three) of the Communist Party died. Because the Communist was supposed to go ahead, they were the first to be killed. Boris, a little wrong, in my opinion, put it. Many people came to the party who were ideological, but unlike the party members before the war, in theory they were weak. Those Trotskyists who were not identified by the purges took advantage of this. A person can be controlled if he is illiterate in something. Therefore, honest people who did not study the Marxist-Leninist doctrine were simply misled. Well, the old party member says to the young front-line soldier, the communist. How not to believe? And there was no time to study, and I didn’t want to, I think. Something like this, and not like yours belay
              1. Alexander Greene
                Alexander Greene 20 January 2018 18: 35 New
                +7
                Quote: avva2012
                Many people came to the party who were ideological, but unlike the party members before the war, in theory they were weak. Those Trotskyists who were not identified by the purges took advantage of this.

                Dear friend, you are writing everything correctly.
                The fact is that our counterparts simply do not read other people's comments, but only their own, otherwise they would not repeat this question. There was already an answer to it when discussing the article. "How to create a volunteer army"
                Here are some excerpts from there.
                "... after the revolution, the ideological struggle in the USSR never stopped, but after the victory of the Bolsheviks in the Civil War, many former Socialist-Revolutionaries, Mensheviks, Bundists, etc.., who immediately began the struggle against the Bolshevik Central Committee. In the 30s they were given hands on, but after the war they took revenge.
                Unfortunately, during the war, an entire generation of builders of communism perished on the fronts: the youth born in 1920-1921-1922-1923, brought up by the Soviet government, lost three members of the Communist Party on the fronts. The best died, in their place also heroes came to the party, but they were politically illiterate, the candidate's experience was practically canceled.
                After the war, the city was swept by a petty-bourgeois wave of immigrants from the village and occupied territories, the continuity of the proletarian ideology was broken by the working class. Therefore, the dictatorship of the proletariat after the war rested on the authority of I.V. Stalin. But as soon as he died, sdisguised as Trotskyists, Bukharinites and others like them, under the leadership of Khrushchev, managed to impose on the politically illiterate party members and the entire Soviet people, under the banner of the struggle against a personality cult, the dismantling of the Stalinist model of the socialist economy.
                A gradual restoration of capitalism began, which, under the red flag, was used to deceive the working people. In the end, it led the 1991 coup. "
          2. The comment was deleted.
    2. kalibr
      kalibr 20 January 2018 08: 16 New
      +4
      Good overall article. My good acquaintance defended a dissertation on this subject. And then I used his data in the book "Let us die near Moscow ...". Good ... but it has a pathos ending. And it spoils everything. If then the people fought for the TRUTH, then what did he bow to in 1991? Before FORCE? But ... because there was an army, there were 2 times more nuclear submarines than the United States, there were more heavy missiles ... there were more tanks than all the countries of the world, there were tens of thousands of KGB agents, the native Soviet police, the army, the generals, 18 millionth Communist Party, the Komsomol - "warm hearts" and something finger to finger no one hit in defense of the USSR.
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 20 January 2018 09: 20 New
        10
        Vyacheslav Olegovich, you don’t need to throw stones at people ... You, being a member of the CPSU, a party agitator, about which you yourself wrote more than once ... Why didn’t you stand up for the USSR ... You are convinced they’ve entered the party, or whatever career would be better ... You answer for yourself. I will answer for myself and our battalion, and the collapse of the USSR in our conscience, but at least there is a blank spot when they tried to force our battalion to take the oath of allegiance to the Russian Federation said the oath is taken once and did not take ... and did not force .... And when the king was overthrown, the generals, the army swore o allegiance to the Provisional Government ... And the church is not otreklas..Tak nado..tut we play, then do not play, greasy spot, fish wrapped ...
      2. Olgovich
        Olgovich 20 January 2018 10: 31 New
        +3
        Quote: kalibr
        . If then the people fought for the TRUTH, then what did he bow to in 1991?

        He fought for his homeland then, as always. But for the Bolsheviks in 1991, did not. Everything is simple and clear.
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 20 January 2018 12: 07 New
          +7
          Quote: Olgovich
          But for the Bolsheviks in 1991-did not.

          By this time the Bolsheviks were no longer in power. Learn the materiel.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 20 January 2018 12: 18 New
            +4
            Quote: Boris55
            By this time the Bolsheviks were no longer in power. Learn the materiel.

            I didn’t understand: what about 18 million “hot hearts”? belay request
            You will say, as always, that everyone is a “Trotskyite”.
            Those. Stalinists, in your opinion, is a piece, valuable, but irreproducible product, in contrast to the endlessly prolific "Trotskyists".
            But why? . The party needs heroes, and she gave birth only, um., Yes. yes
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 20 January 2018 15: 01 New
              +8
              I don’t know who, which party, but people like you were also born in the Soviet hospital, um., Yes. yes
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 21 January 2018 07: 43 New
                +3
                Quote: avva2012
                I don’t know who, which party, but such as you, too, were born in the Soviet maternity hospital, um. yes. yes

                Express your "thought" in Russian yes
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 21 January 2018 13: 08 New
                  +2
                  In Russian, banned. I would not like to express it. winked
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 21 January 2018 13: 59 New
                    +2
                    Quote: avva2012
                    In Russian, banned. I would not like to express it. winked

                    Those. you want but - lol not you can ... And so ALWAYS .... yes
                    1. avva2012
                      avva2012 21 January 2018 15: 33 New
                      +2
                      Are you sure that this will always be so? Right? wink
            2. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene 20 January 2018 18: 59 New
              +5
              Quote: Olgovich
              .e. Stalinists, in your opinion, is a piece, valuable, but irreproducible product, in contrast to the endlessly prolific "Trotskyists".
              But why? . The party needs heroes, and she gave birth only, um., Yes

              Unfortunately, by 1991 your petty-bourgeois ideology in society has become predominant. AND real doctrine of the revolution, of the dictatorship of the proletariat, of socialism after the death of Stalin, the hands of the Khrushchevites were forgotten.
              Why are fewer Bolsheviks born than Trotskyists?
              Because Bolshevism is based on scientific methodology — on Marxism-Leninism, on collectivist ideology — in order to master it, you need to learn, make efforts on yourself, think. And any opportunism, including Trotskyism, is based on petty-bourgeois ideology, which is unscientific, and therefore much more easily perceived. It’s easier to be selfish and live only for yourself on the principle of “my hut from the edge”, but to live for others you need a real communist education.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 21 January 2018 07: 57 New
                +3
                Quote: Alexander Green
                Unfortunately, by 1991, your petty-bourgeois ideology in society has become dominant.

                You weaklings, chtd
                Quote: Alexander Green
                But the real doctrine of the revolution, of the dictatorship of the proletariat, of socialism after the death of Stalin at the hands of the Khrushchevites was forgotten.

                Where are the REAL Stalinists gone? request Why didn’t they breed in favorable conditions under Stalin and after? They were all killed? belay belay
                Quote: Alexander Green
                Why are fewer Bolsheviks born than Trotskyists?
                Because Bolshevism is based on scientific methodology - on Marxism-Leninism, on collectivist ideology, in order to master it you need to learn, make efforts on yourself, think. .

                Ahh, the wrong people have come across to you: so lazy, did not understand his happiness, live under you.
                Look for another people! yes
                1. Alexander Greene
                  Alexander Greene 21 January 2018 21: 43 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Wimp you

                  I thought you were educated, and you reasoned like my young neighbor, a drunkard. Do you not understand that the new always makes its way with difficulty, pay attention to the Great French Revolution, the monarchy was overthrown in 1789, its restoration at the beginning of the 19th century, then the revolution of 1830. 1848, 1870 and only after that a bourgeois republic was established in France. And so far we have had only one socialist revolution.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Where are the REAL Stalinists gone? Why didn’t they breed under favorable conditions under Stalin and after? They were all killed?

                  And here, too, you show your ignorance, you are not able to realize the power of the blow to socialism of such an objective factor as the war of 1941-1945. By the way, after the Khrushchev coup, the real Bolshevik-Stalinists were really shot, imprisoned, suspended from leadership, and exiled to the periphery.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Ahh, the wrong people have come across to you: so lazy, did not understand his happiness, live under you.
                  Look for another people!

                  Unfortunately, "You cannot jump over people."
                  In the revolution, defeating the big bourgeoisie is 1000 times easier than convincing millions of small proprietors, and with their daily, everyday, invisible, corrupting activities they give the same results that the bourgeoisie needed for the restoration of capitalism.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 22 January 2018 07: 34 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    the new always struggles its way through

                    Stupidity is also hard
                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    you are not able to realize the power of the blow to socialism of such an objective factor as the war of 1941-1945.

                    Only the Stalinists were killed, to choose from? But the Trotskyists felt sorry. Did you show the certificate? fool
                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    By the way, after the Khrushchev coup, the real Bolshevik-Stalinists were really shot, imprisoned, suspended from leadership, and exiled to the periphery.

                    Let's get the numbers these hundreds of thousands "tortured Stalinists. lol
                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    Unfortunately, "You cannot jump over people."

                    I say, look for ANOTHER people! for their experiences.
                    1. Alexander Greene
                      Alexander Greene 23 January 2018 02: 07 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Stupidity is also hard

                      You do not know life well, stupidity just goes "to Ur"
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Only the Stalinists were killed, to choose from? But the Trotskyists felt sorry. Did you show the certificate?

                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Let the numbers of these hundreds of thousands of "tortured Stalinists

                      You are so well-read, do you really not know the names of their names? In the years 1953-1954 in a place with Beria, many high-ranking executives were shot, exiled to the periphery, and sent to retirement.
                      And about hundreds of thousands where did you see me? You are an amateur specialist in exaggerating numbers. I don’t have the numbers of how many real Stalinists were removed from their posts, I know that in our city after 1956 all party and Soviet leaders were replaced.
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      I say, look for ANOTHER people! for their experiences

                      But the people will not ask you, they’ll finish the full course of education with capitalism and again will sweep away all parasites from the country with a filthy broom.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 23 January 2018 10: 33 New
                        0
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        You do not know life well, stupidity just goes "to Ur"

                        We would live in a cave, according to your logic.
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        You are so well-read, do you really not know the names of their names? In the years 1953-1954 in a place with Beria, many high-ranking executives were shot, exiled to the periphery, and sent to retirement.

                        "A lot" is tears. WHY did so few Stalinists end up in the VKPB? WHY did the endlessly annihilated Trotskyists defeat the indestructible Stalinists?
                        When you and others like you carry this universal BAD about the omnipotent Trotskyists who defeated the omnipotent (after all, everyone was "defeated" lol ) Stalinists is funny to tears.
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        But the people will not ask you, they’ll finish the full course of education with capitalism and again will sweep away all parasites from the country with a filthy broom.

                        Look for another people, here you bummer! hi
                      2. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 23 January 2018 22: 40 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        WHY did so few Stalinists end up in the VKPB? WHY did the endlessly annihilated Trotskyists defeat the indestructible Stalinists?

                        Most Trotskyists in 1937-1938 given for 10 years, and they spent the whole war in the camps and remained alive, besides, there were many who were hiding, and the Stalinists were the first to go into battle, so a lot of them died.
                      3. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 23 January 2018 22: 49 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Look for another people, here you bummer!

                        Do you think that ordinary people will remain in slavery? Do you think badly of him?
                        The bourgeoisie will soon make the people horrify themselves, and this will breathe courage into it ...
          2. kalibr
            kalibr 20 January 2018 14: 01 New
            +2
            But where did they go? Fly to Mars?
      3. Boris55
        Boris55 20 January 2018 11: 58 New
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        If then the people fought for the TRUTH, then what did he bow to in 1991? Before FORCE?

        Before the concept, which the USSR did not have.
        The proverb "There is strength, no mind," must have been heard. In the USSR there was power and even ideology. The slogan “catch up and overtake” entered the USSR into a foreign concept, which led us to the current state. Higher management priorities always determine the behavior of lower ones.
      4. skeptic31
        skeptic31 20 January 2018 13: 15 New
        +7
        And here they fought, did not fight? The Baltic Slavs fought very well against the Teutons, and the Germans would never have defeated them. But. But their elite just fraternized with the Germans and ran across to their side and all. No trace of these warlike and glorious tribes was left. They do not change the bottoms, they change the tops. The lower classes simply do not immediately understand what is going on. And when it comes, it is too late. In addition, among them there are some who are willing to sell for 30 pieces of silver. Moreover, the latter always have reasons to justify their behavior. Here, everything is not so around, and barbarians, bloody Slavs (or red), and civilized opponents, in whom everything is right and good. Tell them that they are potential traitors, so they will be offended. They are ideological, the same Olegovich. The only thing that can at least somehow reveal what they are is a forehead question, but what do you want? What variant of the development of certain events suits you? And that’s all. And cuckoo.
      5. Rastas
        Rastas 20 January 2018 17: 25 New
        +5
        Why no one hit? The result of the referendum of March 91st was the response of the people. also remember the slogans of perestroika. It did not mention the transition to capitalism, the oligarchy. On the contrary, the collapse of the Union was covered with slogans - all power to the Soviets, back to Lenin, more socialism, a more diverse economy, etc. 1991 - the apical revolution. This is A. Zinoviev in his book "Russian Tragedy" that showed it well.
    3. parusnik
      parusnik 20 January 2018 09: 07 New
      +8
      moreover, modern Vlasovites are already on their way.
      ..Yes no approach, they are already among us ... And then, ataman Semenov was supported by the Japanese during the Civil War and then served them faithfully. He is certainly not a collaborator, he was scolded by the Bolsheviks for Holy Russia, along with the Japanese ... General Having learned about General Wrangel’s agreement with the Entente, according to which "horns and legs" would remain from Holy Russia, Slaschev returned to his homeland. But General Slaschev today is a "traitor" of the White movement, and Wrangel and Co. are "saviors" of the Fatherland.
      1. EwgenyZ
        EwgenyZ 20 January 2018 10: 02 New
        +3
        Quote: parusnik
        General Slaschev, learning about the agreement

        Well, let's say that's not why Slashchev returned to his homeland.
        Quote: parusnik
        ..Yes no approach, they are already among us ...

        Well here, "the question is, of course, interesting" ©. Many of those who are considered to be liberoids in the event of a war will take up arms and repay their homeland with dignity, and many of today's “patriots” will not “bathe their eyes” to repeat the “feat” of Vlasov.
        1. parusnik
          parusnik 20 January 2018 11: 06 New
          +8
          Many of those who are considered to be liberoids in the event of war will take up arms and repay their homeland with dignity.
          ... Yes ... yes, and there are examples of Maria Gaidar, she certainly is not in arms, but with dignity repays debts to the Motherland ....
          1. RUSS
            RUSS 20 January 2018 11: 16 New
            +4
            Quote: parusnik
            .Yes ... and there are examples of Maria Gaidar, she certainly is not with arms in her hands, but with dignity repays debts to the Motherland ....

            Maria Gaidar, a worthless dummy, the pitiful shadow of her relatives, is now hanging around with Gunpowder, in principle, she does not deserve attention and discussion at all, since she is utterly zero.
            1. parusnik
              parusnik 20 January 2018 11: 17 New
              +9
              So she from liberals ....
              1. EwgenyZ
                EwgenyZ 20 January 2018 13: 10 New
                +4
                Quote: parusnik
                So she from liberals ....

                Well, Denikin was not a Bolshevik, and Slashchev, if I remember correctly, was not a member of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks), but Andrei Vlasov, for example, was a "fiery communist" and the marshal's star shone for him. And how it turned out: he became a complete bastard.
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 20 January 2018 15: 08 New
                  +8
                  So what? Alexander the first, did not protest against the murder of his father and? It seems that the blood is blue, of the highest standard, but over there. I read somewhere that a tree is growing and it looks like everything is fine with him, but at some point, a wormhole starts in it and the tree grows crooked. So Vlasov and Alexander Romanov, it happens. What does this have to do with communist ideology?
                  1. EwgenyZ
                    EwgenyZ 21 January 2018 09: 55 New
                    0
                    Quote: avva2012
                    What does this have to do with communist ideology?

                    So I think - what place does communism belong to patriotism ?! Duck, after all, no, some debaters here are strenuously proving that if you don't love communism, it means a traitor!
                    1. avva2012
                      avva2012 21 January 2018 13: 22 New
                      0
                      And so no one wrote. Study, however, dialectics, there will be no such questions.
                2. Rastas
                  Rastas 20 January 2018 17: 35 New
                  +5
                  At the request of the CIA, Denikin wrote reports for him over the past two years of his life. He had to understand what he was doing and against whom the USA was fighting. However, he went for cooperation. It’s just that Vlasov and Krasnov had Germans as the owners, Denikin had the French, then the Americans.
                  1. EwgenyZ
                    EwgenyZ 21 January 2018 09: 58 New
                    0
                    Quote: Rastas
                    At the request of the CIA, Denikin wrote reports for him over the past two years of his life. He had to understand what he was doing and against whom the USA was fighting. However, he began to cooperate.

                    Would you like the ideological adversary of communism to write laudatory odes about the Bolsheviks !? Do not find this desire strange?
      2. Rastas
        Rastas 20 January 2018 17: 30 New
        +6
        Today already there are tales about the heroic Vlasovites who threw themselves under German tanks with grenades. Our grandchildren and not tell. In the early 90s, Solzhenitsyn reproached the Russian authorities for not so much for anti-Sovietism as for hinting that this should be done finer, more accurately. The current government, branding Ukraine, is essentially engaged in the same thing, only by other methods.
    4. iouris
      iouris 20 January 2018 16: 30 New
      +6
      Quote: EwgenyZ
      Why didn’t there be so many Jews when Napoleon came, wasn’t in Russian-Japanese, wasn’t in the Crimean when the Swedes fought and there were no Turks?

      Because these events took place in the pre-capitalist era. A nation is formed only during the formation of the bourgeois state, when the institution of private property, i.e. a class of owners has formed, the interest of which is not connected exclusively with this state, and often comes in sharp contradiction with the interest of this state. Capital is international in nature, which was pointed out by K. Marx.
      World capitalism is over 600 years old. Vlasovites and Banderaites are the contingent that suggests the possibility of forming a national (or, petty-bourgeois) state, and this state immediately falls into the orbit of an older and more powerful bourgeois state. Socialism in the USSR fell under the pressure of the petty bourgeoisie, which the Stalinist nomenclature produced in the post-Stalinist period.
      1. EwgenyZ
        EwgenyZ 21 January 2018 10: 14 New
        0
        Quote: iouris
        Because these events took place in the pre-capitalist era.

        Those. You want to say that Russia in the XVIII and XIX centuries was a feudal state ?! And it remained so until the October Revolution, because neither in Russian-Japanese, nor in World War I there were so many traitors.
        Quote: iouris
        Quote: EwgenyZ
        Why didn’t there be so many Jews when Napoleon came, wasn’t in Russian-Japanese, wasn’t in the Crimean when the Swedes fought and there were no Turks?

        Because these events took place in the pre-capitalist era. A nation is formed only during the formation of the bourgeois state, when the institution of private property, i.e. a class of owners has formed, the interest of which is not connected exclusively with this state, and often comes in sharp contradiction with the interest of this state. Capital is international in nature, which was pointed out by K. Marx.
        World capitalism is over 600 years old. Vlasovites and Banderaites are the contingent that suggests the possibility of forming a national (or, petty-bourgeois) state, and this state immediately falls into the orbit of an older and more powerful bourgeois state. Socialism in the USSR fell under the pressure of the petty bourgeoisie, which the Stalinist nomenclature produced in the post-Stalinist period.
    5. Looking for
      Looking for 20 January 2018 21: 14 New
      +3
      Maybe we’ll do arithmetic. Since the October Revolution, only 24 years have passed - many who fought against the Soviet regime, amnestied by it, but harbored anger, were, as they say in their prime, subject to military service. Add the difficulties and mistakes of the first months of the war. Destruction and death - here is the fertile ground for all kinds of thoughts. By the way, the flip side of this problem is the mass heroism and self-sacrifice of tens of millions born in the USSR and those who still remembered the living conditions of the oppressed classes in tsarist Russia . But in general, a comparison of the events of 200 years ago and 70 years is somehow incorrect.
  6. XII Legion
    XII Legion 20 January 2018 10: 00 New
    21
    During the Great Patriotic War, Soviet citizens were found who were on that German side - in the ranks of the Wehrmacht, SS, paramilitary and police forces.

    It was found, and how many more.
    But in the WWII such a number did not pass!
    1. iouris
      iouris 20 January 2018 16: 34 New
      +3
      Quote: XII Legion
      But in the WWII such a number did not pass!

      This is because in the WWII the front line did not come nearer to the territory of modern Russia closer than several hundred kilometers, and during the victorious WWII up to 30% of the production potential and a significant part of the European territory of Russia-USSR were captured. But even this does not make any comparison with the consequences of the petty-bourgeois counter-revolution of 1985 ... 1998.
    2. Rastas
      Rastas 20 January 2018 17: 53 New
      +5
      Why not found? What about fraternities at the front? And the mass desertion, and the refusal to attack, and the demand for peace? Moreover, then the Germans did not try to create collaborative units. And in the Great Patriotic War there was a struggle for survival. so many tried to adapt to the new government.
      1. XII Legion
        XII Legion 20 January 2018 19: 54 New
        17
        Even as they tried!
        The Austro-German command, interested in discord between the peoples of the Russian Empire, tried to allocate Poles, Ukrainians and Muslims to special camps. With the prospect of forming military units from them.
        And somehow, one of the sisters of mercy (periodically visiting prisoners) went to one of these camps - there were Russian prisoners of war of Polish nationality. An Austrian officer accompanying her asked if she speaks Polish. I don’t need this language, my sister said. Soldiers were built in front of her - they kept regimental epaulettes and military decorations.
        Before my sister could finish the speech in Russian before them, one non-commissioned officer shouted loudly: Hail to the Emperor! And in the "Polish" camp the Russian "cheers" thundered.
        The Germans gathered the Muslims into a separate camp, built a mosque for them. And, as an eyewitness recalled, somehow several thousand Russian Muslim soldiers were gathered on the parade ground. Sing us your prayer, ”said the face examining the face.
        The mullahs came forward, whispered with the soldiers.
        And they sang ... The prayer of the Russian people - God save the Tsar
        1. Rastas
          Rastas 20 January 2018 20: 00 New
          +3
          what Muslim battalions were going to form the Austrians ???? Where did you read such nonsense? Then, about the story with the Poles, I don’t know how true it is, only even the tsar actually agreed to form the Polish state after the war. But on the side of the Austrians were Polish formations of the same Pilsudski.
          1. XII Legion
            XII Legion 20 January 2018 21: 30 New
            17
            These are the recollections of eyewitnesses of those years.
            Or do you know better?
      2. XII Legion
        XII Legion 20 January 2018 19: 59 New
        16
        Rastas
        mass desertion

        The Soviet historian Kavtoradze revealed that if from the beginning of the war until the February Revolution the total number of deserters was 195 thousand people, i.e. an average of 6,3 thousand per month (this is for the 6-7 millionth army!),
        from March to August 1917 the number of deserters increased five-fold, and between June 15 and July 1, six-fold. In most cases, these were the so-called. “Registered deserters” (for example, tending to the rear under various pretexts). These are the consequences of the "deepening of the revolution" in March - December 1917. Like
        refusal to attack, and the demand for peace
        1. Rastas
          Rastas 20 January 2018 20: 52 New
          +4
          What deepened the revolution? The interim government did not make peace, promised to continue the war to a victorious end, but the soldiers fled, they did not shoot agitators against the war, but listened and agreed. Strange, not true. And yet, you read articles from monarchist sites that are not supported by documentary evidence, so treat them more critically and do not take it on faith.
          1. XII Legion
            XII Legion 20 January 2018 21: 34 New
            18
            Deepening the revolution - the democratization of the army. Order No. 1, elected bodies, committees, fraternities. They led to the fact that the army gradually lost its combat effectiveness. I don’t take anything on faith. Learn the documents. Check for example
            The decomposition of the army in 1917. Center Archive. M.-L., 1925.
        2. Rastas
          Rastas 20 January 2018 21: 08 New
          +3
          You are juggling with numbers. 195 thousand deserters - this is only the number caught during the escape. The beginning In December 14th, the headquarters of the Southwestern Front, MV Alekseev, estimated at 20% the number of runaway lower ranks only from echelons going to the front. On the Northern Front, according to the control plots of the Dvinsky and Petrograd military districts, 1915 people were detained from November 1917 to February 56. According to the Headquarters, 176 were detained on the Western Front until March 1917, and 13 were detained on the Romanian Front. On the Southwestern Front, according to information received from the heads of military police teams, local governors and heads of military districts, by March 648, there were 67 deserters detained. They should be added to those arrested by gendarmes on the railways inside Russia (in 845 - 1917 64, and in 582 - 1915 148 people). Thus, only according to official figures from military and gendarmerie institutions, about 803 thousand people were detained at the front and in the rear, which is an order of magnitude higher than the number of deserters in the German (1916–74 thousand) and British (753 thousand) armies.
          1. XII Legion
            XII Legion 20 January 2018 21: 37 New
            17
            I do not juggle. The numbers are accurate.
            I give you the data of the famous specialist - the Soviet historian Kavtoradze. This is the data of Soviet historical science. Study
            Kavtoradze, A. G. The June Offensive of the Russian Army in 1917 // Military History Journal. - 1967. - No. 5. - S. 111-118.
            1. hohol95
              hohol95 20 January 2018 22: 13 New
              +2
              How many total deserters were there in the tsarist army during the First World War? According to the Headquarters, until the spring of 1917 there were 195 thousand.41 In historiography, the number of deserters is sometimes estimated at 1.5–2 million. At the same time, emigrant historians tend to underestimate the data, proving that desertion was widespread due to the revolution.

              In all likelihood, the numbers available to the Headquarters were calculated from the number of those detained while fleeing from the front to the rear. So, on the Northern Front, according to the control plots of the Dvina and Petrograd military districts, 1915 people were detained from November 1917 to February 56. According to the Headquarters, 176 were detained on the Western Front until March 1917, and 13 were detained on the Romanian Front. On the Southwestern Front, according to information received from the heads of military police teams, local governors and heads of military districts, by March 648, there were 67 deserters detained. They should be added to those arrested by gendarmes on the railways inside Russia (in 845 - 1917 64, and in 582 - 1915 148 people). Thus, only according to official figures from military and gendarmerie institutions, about 803 thousand people were detained at the front and in the rear, which is an order of magnitude higher than the number of deserters in the German (1916–74 thousand) and British (753 thousand) armies.

              The least information about the number of deserters settled in the inner provinces of Russia. According to civil authorities, each village had one, sometimes two and rarely three, deserters found, that is, about 300 thousand people in total. On the whole, from the end of 1914 to March 1917, about 800 thousand deserters were detained and lived at the place of residence throughout the country. The total number of those who, before the revolution, passed the path of a deserter, including those who are not detained, can reach 1–1.5 million.
            2. Rastas
              Rastas 20 January 2018 22: 57 New
              +2
              I do not deny, but explain that it is necessary to clarify the meaning of these figures, that 195 thousand are only caught. A. G. Kavtoradze himself writes "these were the so-called registered deserters." Here are the cool words. And how many were unregistered? Order No. 1 - this was a requirement of the Council of Workers 'and Soldiers' Deputies, and not members of the Duma.
              1. XII Legion
                XII Legion 21 January 2018 08: 19 New
                17
                Rastas
                A. G. Kavtoradze himself writes "these were the so-called registered deserters." Here are the cool words. And how many were unregistered?

                That's it
                Kavtoradze writes about registered deserters, speaking of 1917.
                For an earlier period, they are TOTAL NUMBER of deserters
        3. hohol95
          hohol95 20 January 2018 22: 10 New
          +3
          In 1911, 8 were convicted of unauthorized absences, escapes, and failure to appear, and in 027, 1912 were convicted.
          In September 1914, the commander of the Southwestern Front N.I. Ivanov noted a large number of roaming soldiers and entire groups, their licentiousness, cases of looting. They wrote from the front that when the regiments of the second line retreated, soldiers scattered across the villages as whole platoons; many deserters appeared in Warsaw. Masses of soldiers fled from trains going to the front.
          Only the Warsaw gendarmerie-police department for December 1914 - February 1915 detained 3 deserters. From December 500, 15 to January 1914, 15, 1915 people were detained on the railways of the Southwestern Front. N.I. Ivanov pointed out that most of the detainees deliberately deviated from the path to their unit, not wanting to carry out not only military, but also no service. Chief of Staff Headquarters N.Ya. Yanushkevich wrote in March 12 to the head of the Gendarme corps V.F. Dzhunkovsky that train escapes cannot be stopped by recovering from soldiers or inexperienced echelon commanders.

          Minister of the Interior Prince N.B. Shcherbatov in September 1915 was a witness to the "incredible licentiousness" of the mass of soldiers near Orsha. At the same time, the commander of the Western Front reported on the mass of backward soldiers lost for the army, rapidly demoralizing, starting to hunt with looting and even banditry, and demanded that this fight be started with “the fastest, most radical, and in some cases severe measures.” At the same time, Alekseev telegraphed the mass of unauthorized absence from lower ranks and even officers, about widespread riots and arsons in the rear, to the chief of supplies of the Southwestern Front. Desertion penetrated deep into the rear of Russia: in December 1915, crowds of stray soldiers appeared in the Moscow Military District.

          And you about 1917 ...
          1. XII Legion
            XII Legion 20 January 2018 22: 15 New
            17
            I have given the classics of Soviet historical science.
            Kavtoradze is a name.
            Who are Rastas or who else - I do not know
    3. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene 20 January 2018 19: 07 New
      +4
      Quote: XII Legion
      It happened, and how much more.
      But in the WWII such a number did not pass!

      Dear, engage in self-education, read the textbook of dialectical materialism and then you will understand how to correctly compare the two events.
      1. XII Legion
        XII Legion 20 January 2018 19: 55 New
        17
        Read your materialisms yourself
        How to properly compare 2 wars - we will understand. That's why they are both global.
        Unless of course you look at everything through the prism of the class struggle.
        1. Rastas
          Rastas 20 January 2018 20: 54 New
          +2
          And what do you explain then, in France, where there was no revolution, in the WWI the French fought against the Germans, did not cooperate with them and won. And in WWII, the number of French collaborators exceeded those who fought against the invaders. Also the Bolsheviks tried?
          1. XII Legion
            XII Legion 20 January 2018 21: 41 New
            17
            In France in the spring of 1917 there were unrest.
            The spring revolutionary events of 1917 paralyzed a significant part of the French army (riots and riots occurred in 28 divisions), some units moved under red flags to Paris.
            Just the French with a hard hand put things in order. And we all played in democracy. They forgot that war is and that it’s better to hang a hundred agitators than then a hundred thousand decent people will die.
            1. Rastas
              Rastas 20 January 2018 23: 28 New
              +2
              I repeat. Why did many Frenchmen go to serve the Germans in WWII, but not in WWII? Then in the Russian army they tried to introduce executions, the same Kornilov, for example. But the soldiers themselves did not follow orders. The soldiers are sick of this war. Because someone sheds blood, and in the rear they profit, plump, and have fun with the women. Mayakovsky’s verse “didn’t you read”?
        2. Looking for
          Looking for 20 January 2018 21: 27 New
          +2
          Lord, what a wretched worldview. DEAR, yes, the fact of the matter is that ALL WARS IN THE HISTORY OF HUMANITY are the result of class contradictions.
        3. Alexander Greene
          Alexander Greene 21 January 2018 21: 48 New
          +1
          Quote: XII Legion
          Unless of course you look at everything through the prism of the class struggle.

          And this is just the key for a correct understanding of the essence of the First World War and the Great Patriotic War, as part of the Second World War.
      2. Looking for
        Looking for 20 January 2018 21: 18 New
        +3
        Yes, he didn’t hear such a science.
        1. XII Legion
          XII Legion 20 January 2018 21: 38 New
          17
          This is your poor view
          Darling)))
  7. RUSS
    RUSS 20 January 2018 10: 33 New
    +6
    Quote: XII legion
    During the Great Patriotic War, Soviet citizens were found who were on that German side - in the ranks of the Wehrmacht, SS, paramilitary and police forces.

    It was found, and how many more.
    But in the WWII such a number did not pass!

    Moreover, there was no seething in the Caucasus and in Crimea, many highlanders heroically recommended themselves at the front, but nationalists and separatists from Crimea, the Caucasus and Central Asia became active in the Second World War.
    1. Cat
      Cat 20 January 2018 12: 29 New
      +6
      Somehow one-sided! The search for a simple explanation of a multifaceted issue is touching in a sense. Was there a boy? I give an approximate list of those awarded the "Gold Medal - Hero of the USSR" during the Second World War!
      updated list compiled by writer Gennady Ovrutsky:
      Russians - 7998;
      Ukrainians - 2021,
      Belarusians - 299,
      Tatars - 161,
      Jews - 107,
      Kazakhs - 96,
      Georgians - 90,
      Armenians - 89,
      Uzbeks - 67,
      Mordvinians - 63,
      Chuvashs - 45,
      Azerbaijanis - 43,
      Bashkirs - 38,
      Ossetians - 33,
      Mari - 18,
      Turkmens - 16,
      Lithuanians - 15,
      Tajiks - 15,
      Latvians - 12,
      Kyrgyz - 12,
      Komi - 10,
      Udmurts - 10,
      Estonians - 9,
      Germans - 9
      Karelians - 8,
      Buryats and Mongols - 8
      Kalmyks - 8,
      Kabardinians - 8
      Circassians - 6,
      Crimean Tatars-6
      Chechens-5
      French - 4
      Abkhazians - 4,
      Yakuts - 2,
      Moldovans - 2,
      Tuvinian - 1,

      There are all representatives of the peoples of the Caucasus, the Crimean peninsula, even the Volga Germans.
      Perhaps from this it is necessary to begin washing the seeds of "traitors".
      1. RUSS
        RUSS 20 January 2018 13: 02 New
        +3
        Quote: Kotischa
        There are all representatives of the peoples of the Caucasus, the Crimean peninsula, even the Volga Germans.
        Perhaps from this it is necessary to begin washing the bones of "traitors

        Undoubtedly, this is undoubtedly the heroes were and are among many peoples of Russia and the Union, but the eastern legions were precisely in the WWII, and not in the PM.
        1. Cat
          Cat 20 January 2018 13: 19 New
          +7
          Germany in the first world and did not set goals on the national question. And when I started to pose, we got instant examples in the person of Ukrainians, Belarusians, Finns and Poles! So this tool was not used by sin in WWII.
      2. EwgenyZ
        EwgenyZ 20 January 2018 13: 24 New
        +2
        Quote: Kotischa
        I give an approximate list of those awarded the "Gold Medal - Hero of the USSR" during the Second World War.

        Well, let's start with the fact that it’s not the Great Patriotic War, but the Great Patriotic War. Respect those who shed blood for us.
        Tell me: does the list of Estonians, Latvians, Ukrainians, Caucasian peoples, Russians somehow cancel the existence of national units in the Wehrmacht and the SS? Or does it somehow cancel the deportation of some peoples from your list? In vain, it turns out they were deported? Yes, right now you are the defenders of Comrade Stalin, for such a criole, multiply by "0"!
        1. Cat
          Cat 20 January 2018 14: 33 New
          +8
          Not for you to teach me - Dear, what to love, how to love and why to love. First, there are a number of abbreviations spelled out in encyclopedic dictionaries, "g." - city or year, "AD" - our era, including the “Great Patriotic War”, so your attempt to link this with feat and blood, except for the gesture “the hysterical young man hysterically threw the girl” gesture does not show anything. By the way, attempts to cheap PR, you do not paint.
          Second, you shed blood, personally? So using cheap categories. "Self-advertising" - "Us" must be capitalized.
          Third, according to the author, at least 400 traitors of Russian nationality fought on the side of Germany. There were several SS formations "Druzhina 000", "Druzhina 1", Cossack formations, etc.
          In connection with your logic, the feat of the Soviet people must be disfigured in O because of the presence of Russian traitors. Wretched however? It is necessary to separate the grain from the pleura. Uro-do-in is enough always and everywhere, but this in no case should not replace - one with the other.
          Yes, the traitors were - the more glorious is the victory of Our Grandfathers and Great-Grandfathers.
          Fourth and last, my grandfather participated in the department of Chechens and Ingush, as well as an eyewitness to the "Chechen standing of the gentlemen on Red Square"! When the Dzhigits at the parade, in orders, came to the Kremlin - asked to go back to the front? So, interfering with "your filthy language" of both of them, you insult US, OUR HOMELAND AND THEIR BLOOD PERFECT.
          I have the honor of Kotische!
          1. EwgenyZ
            EwgenyZ 20 January 2018 15: 48 New
            0
            Quote: Kotischa
            Not for you to teach me - Dear, what to love, how to love and why to love. First, there are a number of abbreviations.

            Well, no and no trial. Once there are abbreviations, what for once again click on the keys. Your attitude to the Great Patriotic War is clear, for you this is "WWII".
            Quote: Kotischa
            Second, you shed blood, personally?

            My grandfather shed both literally and figuratively. And for me too! Although I was still not in the plans at that time. And he met Victory in a hospital in Tambov, and until the end of his life he carried in himself up to a kilogram of fragments and died because of this at exactly 50 years old, on his birthday. Therefore, for me this war is the Great Patriotic War, and for you the Second World War.
            Quote: Kotischa
            In connection with your logic, the feat of the Soviet people must be disfigured in O because of the presence of Russian traitors.

            What are you talking about, "gracious"? Did you post the list of Heroes of the Soviet Union in response to the remark that in World War I there wasn’t such a scale of rebellion on the national outskirts? What is the essence of your logic ?! And I asked you how this list cancels the presence of national units in the Wehrmacht and the SS. And since it’s not up to you that deportations are connected precisely with the subversive activities of representatives of certain peoples, these are problems of your logic.
            And judging by the tone of your "opus" this is yours
            "the tantrum of the snotty young man whom the girl threw"
            1. Cat
              Cat 20 January 2018 18: 00 New
              +3
              Quote: RUSS
              Quote: XII legion
              During the Great Patriotic War, Soviet citizens were found who were on that German side - in the ranks of the Wehrmacht, SS, paramilitary and police forces.

              It was found, and how many more.
              But in the WWII such a number did not pass!

              Moreover, there was no seething in the Caucasus and in Crimea, many mountaineers heroically recommended themselves at the front, but now in WoW nationalists and separatists from Crimea, the Caucasus and to Central Asia became active. National militarized associations were created - the Eastern Legions of the Wehrmacht.

              Read the respected comment carefully!
              It was by pointing to Dear RUSS that the one-sidedness of the given example on a multifaceted problem, I gave an approximate list of nationalities of heroes awarded a medal - a gold star of the heroes of the USSR.
              Below is my post that literally with the collapse of the Russian Empire, a parade of suverinetes began in the Baltic states, Poland, Belarus and Ukraine. At the same time, I noticed that Kazerovskaya Germany did not play the national card, unlike the Third Reich.
              Did your attack because of a reduction on me, and not on your counterpart, surprise me? Read Yagofrov - "there are two types of stupid people, some like a red rag rush to conditional reductions, others to grammatical errors!"
              Which category do you relate to?
              And now, your grandfather “shed blood”, a deep bow to him and respect. What have you done for the Fatherland?
              I especially want to hear how you earned a state award from the author?
              Be of good cheer!
              1. EwgenyZ
                EwgenyZ 21 January 2018 11: 13 New
                0
                Quote: Kotischa
                Did your attack because of a reduction on me, and not on your counterpart, surprise me?

                Because he answered you, not Him. And by the way, not an attack, but a request - let's respect.
                Quote: Kotischa
                And now, your grandfather “shed blood”, a deep bow to him and respect. What have you done for the Fatherland?
                Nothing, in terms of "throwing a grenade under the tank or closing the embrasure of the bunker," thank God our grandfathers tried not to have such an opportunity ... But if, after all, it happens, I’m sure that grandfather will not be ashamed of his grandson.
                Quote: Kotischa
                I especially want to hear how you earned a state award from the author?

                I like this order, I consider it the most beautiful of all Soviet awards. And, besides, one of the few Soviet, on which the Russian saint. Hope satisfied your curiosity?
          2. avva2012
            avva2012 20 January 2018 16: 39 New
            +9
            Yes insult. And the motherland, and us, and our relatives. They just want to replace concepts. Their betrayal is valor, and the fulfillment of duty is the service of the "bloody regime." Those whom our ancestors reposed, this undead, are now trying to build heroes. It will not work while there is memory. And it must be protected, as the most important thing, that which holds the past, present and future together with invisible bonds. Indeed, without our relatives, there will be no future, because they will come, whose ancestors were on the other front line.
            1. Cat
              Cat 20 January 2018 19: 33 New
              +3
              Yes Doctor, you are absolutely right "they will come"!
              I consider the civil war of the beginning of the last century a common misfortune of all the inhabitants of the Russian Empire. In the civil war, where a brother went against a brother, and a son against his father there are no traitors.
              Traitors appeared later when under the flag of Nazi Germany they entered the borders of their homeland. They have no excuse; they have no place in Russia and the memory of the people. Many succumbed to a moment of weakness dropped their weapons and realized their hands uphill. Who are they - they are traitors. Let's be consistent in our judgments - all those who have weapons in their hands, fought on the side of the enemy, he and our enemy. Everyone who was a free accomplice of fascism is our enemy.
              But do not interfere with them the Red Army wounded captured by the enemy, not submitting torture and persuasion of traitors. Children and women stolen in Germany in labor camps and concentration camps which, contrary to all, waited ....
              They are not our enemies, they are our role model!

              It is even more unacceptable to interfere with people on a national basis. If you are a Baltic - you are an SS man, if a crest is a UNA fighter, if the Crimean Tatar ........
              My list of those awarded - the Gold Medal - Hero of the Soviet Union is stamped that besides "them" there are "others." Stirring the mud of Judas and traitors with heroes, we beat ourselves. It’s easy sitting on the couch to “scream” that the peoples of the Caucasus are traitors! And you take it and say it in person lysgin or Dagestan? Weak?
              At one time, I received a lesson for which I bow low to that aksakal. My colleague left in the market ...... one of the republics of the Caucasus, whose grandfather talked to the melon that they are all "spirits." Grandfather hit him with a stick, he is for a weapon. I rushed between them, realizing that there were 21 of us, and in their village there were only two hundred men. Grandfather got up, took a parcel from his heart, unfolded and there the Order of Glory of the 3rd degree. He told us only one thing, "mine, under Koenigsberg at 45." My colleague just fell to his knees in front of his grandfather with the words "Father forgive me."
              So tell me, naive dunduk, is this grandfather of deportation worthy? Did his mother or father deserve it?
              And I say this, whose grandfather probably accompanied the wagons and barges with his relatives to the Urals. And my second grandfather, perhaps at that time, fought shoulder to shoulder with him near Koenigsberg.
              You can’t rewrite history, you need to learn to live with it and move on, but before you type “nation” = “traitor” on your keyboard with clumsy fingers, look at the list of those awarded during the Great Patriotic War.
              I have the honor of Vladislav Kotische!
              1. avva2012
                avva2012 21 January 2018 15: 48 New
                +2
                Dear Vladislav, I completely agree with you. There are no nations, traitors, alas, there are, in any nation, traitors. This is a special "nation", because, even the afterlife they have one at all.
          3. Looking for
            Looking for 20 January 2018 21: 40 New
            -1
            And is that honor?. The court for the use of the expression "WWII" -no.
        2. Looking for
          Looking for 20 January 2018 21: 36 New
          -1
          And what kind of “some” are there, Apart from the Chechens and Crimean Tatars, something else doesn’t come to my mind. And these were deported for work.
      3. The comment was deleted.
  8. captain
    captain 20 January 2018 10: 50 New
    +6
    If it’s simple, then in Russia (more precisely, in the USSR) before the Great Patriotic War conditions were created for betrayal. Therefore, 1.2 million helped the Germans in the fight against our people. Yes, some of the ideological considerations, some of the selfish. But due to the fact that in the USSR treason was put on the rank of heroism; for example, the collapse of the army, the Brest Peace, the distribution of Russian lands to the nationalists with the people, collectivization (they took the land from the peasants, which they promised to give for eternal use), this created a breeding ground for betrayal. The most outstanding standard of betrayal is a member of the military council of the 32 army, brigade commissar Zhilenkov. This has never happened in the history of the Russian Empire (I repeat; the Russian Empire).
    1. parusnik
      parusnik 20 January 2018 11: 26 New
      +8
      then in Russia (more precisely in the USSR) before the Great Patriotic War conditions were created for betrayal.
      ... We will clarify, in February 1917, when the Rodzianka, Guchkov, Kerensky deposed the emperor. When the army and navy took the oath to the Provisional Government .... The church also renounced ...
      1. RUSS
        RUSS 20 January 2018 13: 09 New
        +2
        Quote: parusnik
        The church also denied ...

        Well, she didn’t completely renounce it, but rather went into neutrality, the reasons are that the church had a chance to regain the Patriarch and some independence from the authorities, for which they later paid .....
    2. Olgovich
      Olgovich 20 January 2018 12: 23 New
      +4
      Quote: captain
      But due to the fact that in the USSR treason was put on the rank of heroism; for example, the collapse of the army, the Brest Peace, the distribution of Russian lands to the nationalists with the people, collectivization

      But it is precisely noticed! From this point of view, somehow did not think! hi
      1. avva2012
        avva2012 20 January 2018 13: 23 New
        +8
        Can you do that too? laughing Something so far has been unnoticed.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 21 January 2018 08: 06 New
          +3
          Quote: avva2012
          You and it -can you? it was unnoticed

          I can! yes And here you are this-not lol can lol It is noticed. hi
          1. avva2012
            avva2012 21 January 2018 13: 30 New
            +3
            You? So for you, as in a crooked mirror, a lie, it is true, but the ability to think will be perceived by you as not rationality. Find here a comment by one of the users, there are just those who find fault with typos and the Russian language. Although, it is unlikely that you will understand this.
    3. Rastas
      Rastas 20 January 2018 17: 55 New
      +5
      Rotmister, you are a former member of the CPSU. Have a conscience.
    4. Looking for
      Looking for 20 January 2018 21: 50 New
      +3
      It was because of people like you, who were hiding like submarine snakes, undefeated fists, subcultists, officers, priests who secretly hated Soviet power and the detachments of these traitors were formed.
    5. BAI
      BAI 21 January 2018 00: 53 New
      +2
      The most outstanding standard of betrayal is a member of the Military Council of the 32nd Army, Brigadier Commissar Zhilenkov. This has never happened in the history of the Russian Empire (I repeat; the Russian Empire).

      There was still a certain prince of Kurbsky - a Russian commander, politician, writer, translator and philanthropist, the closest associate of Ivan the Terrible. He came from the Smolensk-Yaroslavl branch of Rurikov’s house, that part of it that owned the village of Kurba in the Yaroslavl region. In 1564, at the height of the Livonian War, he received news of the impending disgrace, fled and settled in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.
      In January 1563, Kurbsky established treasonous ties with Lithuanian intelligence. On January 13, 1563, Sigismund II, in a letter to the Parliament of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, thanked the Vitebsk governor N. Yu. Radziwill "for his efforts in relation to Kurbsky." According to Skrynnikov’s conclusion, we are talking about the transfer of information about the movement of the Russian army by Kurbs, which contributed to the defeat of the Russian troops in the battle of January 25, 1564 near Ula.
      The kingdom, of course, is not an empire. but still. We will not recall princes of the times of the Mongol-Tatar yoke.
  9. Naputeon bonaput
    Naputeon bonaput 20 January 2018 11: 18 New
    +4
    In the title of the article, the word Russian taken in quotation marks. And rightly so - Russian people love their homeland, and they have no reason to betray it. And the Soviet population changed its USSR almost with the first rogue (the initiative was put into the Finnish one).
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Cat
      Cat 20 January 2018 13: 23 New
      +6
      Sad But I must say that I did not understand your idea!
      For me, Russian = Soviet, at least in logical constructions.
      1. Naputeon bonaput
        Naputeon bonaput 20 January 2018 13: 50 New
        +5
        Do you believe that Gorbachev was the grandson of the kulak, the son of a policeman, is an agent of the CIA and is in the Masonic lodge of the Great East of Russia?
        1. Cat
          Cat 20 January 2018 14: 46 New
          +8
          Instead of carrying "bullshit."
          Explain what - the essence of betrayal?
          The country can be different: the Russian Empire, the USSR, Russia, what - it changes for me if I am Russian by nationality. My grandfathers, great-grandfathers, father were Russian. I or one of them should have renounced their Fatherland.
          Perhaps you are of the opinion that the Leningrad intelligentsia won in the Great Patriotic War, then excuse us for different roads.
  10. soldner
    soldner 20 January 2018 13: 37 New
    +2
    Pictured RONA Field commanders - Commander-in-Chief Major Ivan Frolov (center) with RON officers during the Warsaw Uprising of 1944. The officer to the right of Ivan Frolov is Lieutenant Mikhalchevsky. The soldier on the right, apparently, belongs to the ROA (judging by the patch).
  11. Naputeon bonaput
    Naputeon bonaput 20 January 2018 15: 59 New
    +1
    I hold the opinion that in the Great Patriotic War the Great Russian People defeated. And if you are of the opinion that the Russian Empire was a country of slaves, and the Russian Federation was a country of bourgeois bourgeoisie, then excuse us for different roads.
    1. Rastas
      Rastas 20 January 2018 17: 58 New
      +6
      Great Russian people under the leadership of the Communists. Where then to put the Communists and Komsomol who died at the front? People like you are simply touching. shout about patriotism, the Russian people, and use the primitive Western Cold War propaganda in the comments.
      1. Naputeon bonaput
        Naputeon bonaput 20 January 2018 18: 32 New
        +1
        Take away the Russians, leave the Communists and everyone else - who would win?
        1. Rastas
          Rastas 20 January 2018 19: 08 New
          +5
          Communists and Komsomol members were Martians? Bonaput, end Goebbels propaganda use. And then you become a two-faced Janus. You either cling to victory in the Great Patriotic War, or use Goebbels propaganda, which the Americans picked up during the Cold War. It was they who shouted about a special nation - the Bolsheviks who didn’t come from where, bred in huge numbers and destroyed the Russian God-bearer people.
        2. RUSS
          RUSS 20 January 2018 20: 51 New
          +2
          Quote: Naputeon Bonaput
          Take away the Russians, leave the Communists and everyone else - who would win?

          By the beginning of 1943, more than 1 thousand members and candidates for membership in the CPSU (b), or 938% of its total membership, were in the party organizations of the Armed Forces; of these, in the army — 50,3 thousand, or 1% of the number of Communists in the army and navy; respectively, in territorial party organizations - 223 63,6 thousand, or 1%, including in heavy and defense industries - 916 thousand, or 49,7%.
          As of January 1, 1945, 3 thousand communists, or 324% of the total number of members and candidate members of the CPSU (b), were in the military party organizations.
    2. avt
      avt 20 January 2018 18: 04 New
      +7
      Quote: Naputeon Bonaput
      in the Great Patriotic War the Great Russian People defeated.

      In fact, the Great SOVIET People, an example of this is mass heroism marked by high awards from representatives of other nationalities. And most importantly, contrary to the vomiting of Svanidze (the grandson of the party leader of the CPSU (b) Nikolai Samsonovich Svanidze [11], a distant relative of Joseph Stalin's first wife - E. S. Svanidze), it’s not even like he was contrary to the communes - the Beria’s detachments interfering to win him, but under the leadership of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, led by Stalin .. What is a medical fact.
      1. Naputeon bonaput
        Naputeon bonaput 20 January 2018 18: 39 New
        +2
        The Soviet people are an anti-Russian project. Stalin almost recognized this.
        1. Rastas
          Rastas 20 January 2018 19: 09 New
          +7
          The Russian language and our country have never enjoyed such popularity in the world as they did during the period of Soviet power that you hated so much.
          1. RUSS
            RUSS 20 January 2018 20: 57 New
            +1
            Quote: Rastas
            The Russian language and our country have never enjoyed such popularity in the world as they did during the period of Soviet power that you hated so much.

            According to the statistics agency Eurostat, the number of students in EU primary schools studying Russian has reached 500 thousand. There, the Russian language took fifth place in popularity among schoolchildren in the EU.
            1. Rastas
              Rastas 20 January 2018 21: 16 New
              +2
              In principle, it is logical. Russian, English, German, French, Spanish. The problem is that in 50 years, the number of people speaking Russian will decrease in Europe. In the Czech Republic or Poland, for example, those over 40 still able to speak Russian, even in eastern Germany, came across this.
            2. Serg koma
              Serg koma 21 January 2018 11: 44 New
              +2
              Quote: RUSS
              There, the Russian language took fifth place in popularity among schoolchildren in the EU.

              For "non-citizens" and citizens of a number of EU countries (especially the former USSR), for a large number of emigrants from the USSR to the EU - Russian is the native language, or the language of communication between the nationalities of the former Union!
        2. Looking for
          Looking for 20 January 2018 22: 00 New
          0
          More than sure that you are a Jew (culturally).
      2. BAI
        BAI 21 January 2018 00: 34 New
        +5
        and under the leadership of the CPSU led by Stalin

        But it must be admitted that there is a big difference between those who joined the party at 41 will 85.

        Captured political instructor before the shooting.
        1. RUSS
          RUSS 21 January 2018 09: 34 New
          +1
          Quote: BAI
          But it must be admitted that there is a big difference between those who joined the party at 41 will 85.

          The article has a lot of "investigation", but the "reasons" "for which the Red Army went to the Germans are practically not indicated ....
    3. Looking for
      Looking for 20 January 2018 21: 53 New
      0
      In this case, you are just a great-power chauvinist.
  12. xomaNN
    xomaNN 20 January 2018 21: 19 New
    +1
    Now here in the UK .... p. understand civil war, when defectors on both sides are fighting against their former associates. And then the incoming black force attacked. And when I see Vlasov in glasses and a German uniform, it's just disgusting. Moreover, I know those places near Leningrad and Volkhov well. Tens of thousands of our soldiers were buried there in the ground, but they did not go against their own.
  13. VeteranVSSSR
    VeteranVSSSR 20 January 2018 22: 46 New
    0
    author -> author -> author, you or who ???
    Listen here, Alexander Eliseev !!! So far, the best SONS of the Soviet People have fought on the side of Truth, opposing the armies of the German Force.
    And do not distort that only the Russians fought ... Who is Vlasov? - they beat me, Russian, well, it can’t be !!!
    My friend Sanya, and tell me, the son of a Belarusian partisan, the son of a gentleman of the Order of Glory, how your chances burned villages beyond the Urals, how the Fritz bombed the Orenburg region, how the Bashkirians stole children in unmetchina ... There is an argument ??? something.
    Guys, please excuse me, but because of such scribblers Ukrainians do not like you
    1. The comment was deleted.
  14. BAI
    BAI 21 January 2018 00: 26 New
    +1
    An interesting case was missed in the article when in the Crimea the camp of Soviet prisoners of war independently (without a convoy) went to the German rear, moving away from the offensive of the Red Army.
  15. M. Michelson
    M. Michelson 21 January 2018 01: 05 New
    +1
    It would be better to recall the lack of will of Yeltsin’s seven-year-old (since 1993), when they did what they wanted to with Russia, but no one thought to pickle. (Than in distant times to plunge.)
  16. Serg koma
    Serg koma 21 January 2018 09: 10 New
    +2
    Quote: verner1967

    even those born before the 17th year? The homeland is a country, not a state, for power is changing, but the country remains.

    MY two grandfathers were born in the Russian Empire - one, having a reservation, voluntarily folded his head near Stalingrad. The second war in Prague ended. Aunt - a girl volunteer in the Red Army. Here are IM you would try to explain that the USSR is not their homeland, and they are going into battle for the "bloody tyrant" and "liquid-Bolshevik power" ....
    I think that your campaign on this would end !!!!

    PS AND WHERE ANSWER (photo) ON "SPORK" - only zilch on your part instead of "statements"
  17. Serg koma
    Serg koma 21 January 2018 11: 38 New
    +2
    Quote: verner1967
    Quote: Serg Koma
    Here is the biggest resolution on the internet

    no need to show broken links, but it’s difficult to increase it yourself or development does not allow it?
    сравните с http://1941-1945.at.ua/publ/1-1-0-44
    do not see the traces of the star it is necessary to try

    You see the “STAR”, go at least a hint of it in the form of burnt out fabric, places of “lines”, etc. - So you see "Soviet THREAT!" To see what is NOT - it is necessary to try, all-seeing laughing
  18. Normal ok
    Normal ok 22 January 2018 01: 16 New
    0
    The Bolsheviks were famous for organization and courage, advocated the overthrow of all imperialist governments, but they did not take the Germans side.

    Well, well, and the expansion of the front in 1917 was not accidentally initiated by the Bolsheviks.