Military Review

460 years ago the Livonian War began

115
460 years ago the Livonian War began

460 years ago, 17 January 1558, the Livonian War began. The Russian army invaded the Livonian lands in order to punish Livonia for not paying tribute and other flaws.


Some historians consider the Livonian war a major military and political mistake of Tsar Ivan the Terrible. For example, N. I. Kostomarov saw in this war the excessive desire of the Russian tsar for conquest. In the West, the policy of the great Russian tsar is also called "bloody" and "aggressive."

Ivan the Terrible is one of the most hated Russian rulers for the West and for Russian Western liberals.

It is obvious that Ivan Vasilyevich pursued a policy that corresponded to the national, strategic interests of the Russian civilization (Russia-Russia) and the Russian people. Therefore, they hate him in the West, throw mud at him, denigrate various lackeys and lackeys of western orientation in Russia itself (Information war against Russia: the black myth of the "bloody tyrant" Ivan the Terrible; "Black Myth" about the first Russian Tsar Ivan the Terrible).

Indeed, the Livonian war was put on the agenda itself history, patterns of its development. Baltic since ancient times was part of the sphere of influence of Russia, was its outskirts. Through the Baltic - Varyazhskoye, and before that the Venetian Sea (Veneds - Venets - Vandals - this is a Slavic-Russian tribe living in Central Europe), the Rus-Russians from ancient times were associated with many interests with Europe, where their brothers in blood and language lived and faith.

Thus, the Russian state, which in the course of feudal disunity (the first big turmoil) lost a number of its outskirts, “Ukraine,” was to return to the Baltic states. This was demanded by history itself, economic and military-strategic interests (nothing has changed even now). Ivan Vasilyevich, following in the footsteps of his famous grandfather - Ivan III (who was already trying to solve this problem), decided to break the blockade, which separated Russia from Europe hostile to her Poland, Lithuania, the Livonian Order and Sweden.

However, the natural desire of Russia to break through to the Baltic met fierce resistance from Poland, which soon merged with Lithuania, and Sweden. The Polish elite feared that the strengthened Russia would decide to return both the West and South Russian lands occupied at one time by Lithuania and Poland. Sweden built its “Baltic empire”, it did not need a competitor on the Baltic Sea. In general, during the Livonian war against the Russian kingdom, the whole "enlightened Europe" came out and a powerful information war was unleashed against the "Russian barbarians" and the "bloody tsar-tyrant". It was then that the main methods of fighting the “enlightened West” with the “Russian Mordor”, which is going to be conquered by the “peaceful” Europeans, were formed.

In addition, in the south, a new "front" was realized - Russia was attacked by the Crimean horde, behind which stood Turkey. Then the Ottoman Empire was still a powerful military power that Europe was afraid of. The war has become protracted, exhausting. Russia fought not only with the advanced European powers, which had first-class armed forces, which were supported by a significant part of the West, but also with the Crimean Khanate and the Turkish Empire. Russia was forced to retreat. The government of Ivan the Terrible made a mistake by deciding that Poland and Sweden (in fact, the West) would allow Moscow to occupy Livonia. As a result, this strategic task can be solved only by the government of Peter I.

Livonian problem

In the middle of the 15th century, Livonia was a scattered state entity that existed in the form of a confederation of the Livonian Order, the Archbishop of Riga, the four principalities-bishops (Dorpat, Ezel-Vika, Revel, Kurland), and the Livonian cities. At the same time, as a result of the Reformation, the influence of bishops in Livonia was sharply reduced, and their dignity became in many ways merely a formality. Only the Livonian Order had real power, whose lands by the beginning of the 16th century were more than 2 / 3 in the territory of Livonia. Large cities had wide autonomy and self-interest.

In the middle of the XVI century, the disunity of Livonian society reached its limit. Historian Georg Forsten noted that on the eve of the Livonian War "the internal state of Livonia represented the most terrible and sad picture of internal decomposition." The once strong Livonian Order lost its former military power. Knights preferred to solve personal economic problems and live in luxury, rather than preparing for war. However, Livonia relied on strong fortresses and large cities with serious fortifications. At the same time, Livonia has become an attractive target for its neighbors - the Polish-Lithuanian Union, Denmark, Sweden and Russia.

Livonia remained the enemy of Russia. So, in 1444, the Order of War broke out with Novgorod and Pskov, which lasted until 1448. In 1492, Ivangorod was founded in front of the German fortress Narva to fight against Livonia. In 1500, the Livonian Order made an alliance with Lithuania against the Russian state. During the 1501 — 1503 war, in 1501, the Order was crushed by Russian troops in the Battle of Gelmed near Dorpat. In 1503, Ivan III concluded a six-year truce with the Livonian Confederation, which was further extended under the same conditions in 1509, 1514, 1521, 1531 and 1534. From the provisions of the treaty, the Derpt bishopric should pay the so-called “Yuriev tribute” to Pskov every year.



For half a century, the Order managed to forget the bashing received from Ivan III. Treaties operate when they are supported by force (for hundreds of years, nothing on the planet has changed). When the Baltic Protestant Lutherans began to attack the Orthodox churches, Basil III strictly warned them: "I am not the Pope and not the emperor, who do not know how to protect their churches." Under Elena Glinsky, the Livonians were again reminded of the sanctity of churches and the freedom of trade for Russians. The Order unequivocally warned: "But if anyone breaks the oath, God and the oath, pestilence, glad, fire and sword."

However, during the period of the boyar rule, the Livonians dissolved to the end. Russian churches and “ends”, trading houses in the Baltic cities were ravaged. The Order banned transit trade through its territory altogether. All visitors had to enter into transactions only with local merchants, who took advantage of the situation and dictated their prices and conditions, benefited from the mediation. Moreover, the order authorities began to decide for themselves which goods to pass to Russia, and which not. In order to weaken Russia's military potential, the Livonians imposed an embargo on copper, lead, nitrate, banned the passage of Western specialists who wish to enter the Russian service. The Livonians wrote to the German emperor that "Russia is dangerous," the supply of military goods to it and the admission of Western masters "will increase the strength of our natural enemy." Hostile antics continued. Local authorities under the phony pretenses robbed Russian merchants, took away goods from them, threw them into prison. It happened that the Russians were simply killed.

In 1550, the time has come to confirm the truce. Moscow demanded that the Livonians comply with the previous agreements, but they refused. Then the Russian government officially made a complaint. It was mentioned “guests (merchants) of Novgorod and Pskov dishonor and resentment and ... trade irregularities”, the ban on allowing Western goods into Russia and “out of the people of the service people of all kinds of masters”. It was proposed to convene an embassy congress and judge issues before arbitrators. Only on such conditions, Moscow agreed to extend the truce. But the Order ignored these proposals and defiantly confirmed all trade sanctions.

In 1554, the Moscow government decided to step up pressure on Livonia. To do this, use the question "Yuriev tribute." When it arose, it is not exactly known. Novgorod and Pskov have repeatedly waged their own wars with Livonia in the past. In one of the battles, the Pskovs smashed the Bishop of Dorpat (formerly Russian Yuriev, founded by the Russian prince Yaroslav the Wise, he called the ancient settlement for his Christian name), and he pledged to pay tribute. The tribute was mentioned in the agreements between Pskov and the bishop in 1460 - 1470's, and in 1503 it was included in the agreement between the Order and the Russian state. They had already forgotten about the tribute, but Visky and Adashev found this clause in old documents. Moreover, they also interpreted it in their own way. Previously, the territory of the Baltic was a Russian suburb, the Russians founded Kolyvan (Revel-Tallinn), Yuriev-Dorpat and other cities. Later, they were captured by the German crusaders. Adashev and Viskovaty interpreted history differently and informed the Livonians: the king's ancestors allowed the Germans to settle on their land subject to the payment of tribute and demanded an "arrears" for 50 years.

Adashev sharply answered the Livonians' attempts to object: if you do not pay the tribute, the sovereign will come for her. Livonians chickened out and made concessions. Livonia restored free trade, pledged to restore the destroyed Orthodox churches, refused military alliances with the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Sweden. The Bishop of Dorpat had to pay tribute, and the Grand Master and the Archbishop of Riga - to follow this. On the collection of money was given 3 year. When the ambassadors brought such an agreement to the Livonian rulers, they were stunned. The sum for half a century has come up huge, for each year “according to the German hryvnia from the head” of the Dorpat population. And it was not only money. Under the then legal norms, the tribute payer was a vassal of the one to whom he pays.

But the wrath of Moscow did not want the Livonians to incur. Russia at this time was on the rise. The central power has grown stronger, the military and economic power has been growing every year. The time of the restoration of the great Russian empire began, after the troubled times - the period of feudal fragmentation. Moscow became the successor of the Horde Empire, Russia - a huge continental (Eurasian) empire.

Livonian authorities decided to cheat. They took the oath to the Russian ambassador that they would fulfill all the conditions. But they left a loophole for themselves - they said that the treaty was not valid until it was approved by the emperor, since the Order was part of the German Empire. And Livonia did not fulfill the accepted conditions. Local authorities, the knights have long been traders, had the closest ties of merchants and did not want to lose huge revenues from intermediary trade. As a result, the city magistrates left in force all the restrictions imposed on the Russians. Moreover, no one was going to collect some tribute and restore the Orthodox churches at their own expense. Moscow was connected with the wars with Kazan, Astrakhan, and the Crimean horde, which means that it could not do Livonia yet.

In general, the policy of the weak, decayed Order was stupid. Russia every year became stronger, restoring the position of a great power. But Livonia was not considered treaties, angered its powerful neighbor, while the Livonians did not prepare to fight. Thought that everything will be as before. Even if it comes to war, there will be no catastrophic consequences, somehow it will blow over. Hoping for strong fortresses and castles. Bishops, cities and merchants did not want to shell out for a strong army. Order as a military force is completely decomposed. The Livonian knights boasted to each other "the glory of their ancestors", their castles, weapons, but forgot how to fight. The master's order, the bishops, the Fochts, the commanders and the city authorities lived autonomously, fighting for power and their rights.

Livonian Confederation itself began to fall apart. The Polish king Sigismund II held secret negotiations with the Archbishop of William of Riga. As a result, the archbishop appointed Christophe of Mecklenburg as his deputy and successor (a protege of the Poles). Subsequently, becoming the archbishop, Christophe had to transform the archdiocese into a principality dependent on Poland. These plans soon ceased to be a secret, a big scandal broke out. Grand Master Fürstenberg assembled knights, attacked the archbishop and captured him along with Deputy Christophe. However, Poland threatened war. The master was unable to gather an army, Livonia was helpless in front of Poland. In September, 1556, the master publicly apologized to the Polish king and signed the agreement. Wilhelm was returned to the archbishopric. Livonia granted Lithuania free trade, and entered into an anti-Russian alliance with it. Livonians also pledged not to allow military supplies and Western specialists to enter Russia. Thus, Livonia has violated all the conditions of an armistice with Russia.

Meanwhile, Russia once again strained relations with Sweden. The Swedes decided that Moscow was completely bogged down in the east, its affairs were bad and it was time to use the favorable moment. Since 1555, the Swedes began to plunder and seize Russian frontier lands, meadows and fishes. When the peasants tried to fight back, their villages burned down. The governor of Novgorod, Prince Paletsky, sent Ambassador Kuzmin to Stockholm to King Gustav with a protest, but he was arrested. The Swedish king was offended that he had to communicate with the Novgorod governor, and not the Russian tsar. In Sweden, the war party prevailed. There were "happy" rumors that the Russian army was defeated by the Tatars, that Tsar Ivan Vasilyevich either died, or was overthrown, and unrest began. Like, it's time to take advantage of the situation.

Swedish troops crossed the border. Novgorod detachments at the border were defeated. The Swedes were outraged in Karelia. The Swedish fleet of Admiral Jacob Bagge in the spring of 1555, passed to the Neva and landed troops. The Swedish corps besieged Oreshek. But rumors about the catastrophic situation in Russia were not justified. Nut resisted, he came to the aid of Russian rati. They strongly pressed on the Swedish corps, the enemy suffered heavy losses and fled. In Novgorod, gathered a large army. But the Swedes continued to fight, hoping for the support of Poland and Livonia (they promised support, but deceived). Russian troops invaded Swedish Finland, in January 1556 defeated the Swedes near Vyborg and laid siege to the enemy fortress. Swedish territories were severely ravaged.

Gustav pleaded for peace. Moscow has agreed to negotiate. In March 1557, a peace treaty was signed for a period of 40 years. The treaty as a whole maintained the status quo, but who won the war was obvious. The old border was restored, the Russian prisoners were released, the Swedes bought out their own. Agreed on mutual free trade between both states and on free passage through them to other lands. The Swedish rabbit was humiliated for his former pride - he did not want to negotiate with the governor of Novgorod. They wrote that it was “not dishonor, but honor” to deal with Novgorod, because the suburbs of Novgorod (Pskov and Ustyug) are “more Stekolny” (Stockholm), and the governors are “children and grandchildren of Lithuanian, Kazan and Russian monarchs”. The Swedish king “is not in reproach, but solely in mind ... has it been selling oxen for a long time?” (Gustav was raised to the throne by the rebels). Gustav had to forget about his pride, while the Russians once again did not pour out the Swedes. 1 January 1558 year contract with Sweden entered into force.

The Livonians, seeing the force of Moscow by the example of Sweden, began to worry. Payment term "Yuriev tribute" expired. The Order tried to challenge her again, but in Moscow the Livonian ambassadors did not even listen. Then the Russian Tsar Ivan Vasilyevich tore up trade with Livonia, forbade the Pskov and Novgorod merchants to go there. The restoration of the fortress Ivangorod began. Troops began to gather on the western border. New negotiations again did not lead to success.

The outbreak of war

In January, 1558, 40-th. The Russian army under the command of Kasimov's Tsar Shig-Alei (Shah-Ali), Prince M. V. Glinsky and the boyar Daniil Romanovich Zakharyin invaded Livonia. To the campaign were brought new subjects of Moscow - Kazan Tatars, Mari (Cheremis), Kabardians, Circassians, Allied Nogai. The Novgorod and Pskov hunters joined in (as volunteers were called). For a month, Russian troops marched along the path of Marienburg - Neuhausen - Derpt - Wesenberg - Narva. Russian troops did not get to Riga and Revel a bit. In this case, the Russian army did not take the fortified cities and fortresses, so as not to linger. The unfortified towns of towns and villages were smashed. It was a reconnaissance and punitive campaign aimed at punishing the Order for its antics and forcing Moscow to accept the conditions. Livonia was devastated.

In February, troops returned to the Russian borders, capturing huge booty and leading crowds of prisoners. After that, at the direction of the king, Shig-Alei acted as if in a mediator role - he wrote to the Order's rulers that they should blame themselves because they violated the agreements, but if they want to improve, it is not too late, let them send delegates. Having learned about sending an ambassador from the master to Moscow, Shig-Alei ordered to stop the fighting.

Initially it seemed that the war on this and will be stopped. The extraordinary Landtag of the Livonian Order decided to collect for the calculation with Moscow 60 thousands of thalers in order to stop the war that had begun and to conclude peace. However, by May, only half the required amount had been collected. Worse, the Livonians thought they were safe in the fortresses. That the Russians were afraid to storm their strong fortresses and fled. What they actually "won." The Narva garrison fired upon the Russian Ivangorod fortress, thus violating the armistice agreement. Russian army prepared for a new campaign.
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  1. solzh
    solzh 17 January 2018 06: 51
    11
    Venedian Sea (Wenedos - Venets - Vandals - a Slavic-Russian tribe living in Central Europe)

    Since when did the vandals become a Slavic tribe? I did not read further ...
    1. venaya
      venaya 17 January 2018 08: 12
      +6
      Quote: solzh
      Since when did the vandals become a Slavic tribe?

      Try to take a closer look at this question: Until now, people have lived in the province of Vendée for centuries who have called themselves Venets. People who speak Karelian-Finnish languages ​​are still called venets of the Russian Federation, for example, Finnish - venäläinen, venäläinen, venäjänkielinen, Estonian - Venemaa and others. Unfortunately we all have already been accustomed to an inattentive attitude towards our own past, I suspect that this Vile act allocated tremendous cash. Hence, such misunderstandings who are there such "Slavs" (Slovenia more precisely), and who not. So in this sense, the article clearly and correctly says:
      Wends - Venets - Vandals Is a Slavic-Russian tribe living in Central Europe
      1. Varyag_0711
        Varyag_0711 17 January 2018 08: 52
        12
        solzh Today, 06:51 a New
        Since when did the vandals become a Slavic tribe? I did not read further ...

        venaya Today, 08:12 ↑ New
        So in this sense, the article clearly and correctly says:
        Wends - Venets - Vandals - a Slavic-Russian tribe living in Central Europe
        Guys, let’s at least a little understanding of the issue, and not follow the path of Samsonov, who in his "delights" about the Slavic-Aryans will soon outnumber the "proHfessor" Bebik with his ancient Ukrainians.
        Vandals (lat. Vandili [1], Wandali [2], Uuandali [3], Greek Βάνδαλοι), in the ancient Germanic languages ​​of Wendel (Wendel, Wentil) [4] - the ancient Germanic tribal union, close to the Goths, which became famous in the era of the Great Migration peoples.
        For reference, at least pekvidii looked. This, of course, is the garbage dump, but at least in the tribes it does not make mistakes. And then we are going to overtake the protoucres so precisely ... Do not stoop to such things.

        P.S. The author wants to say one thing: STOP ... fool He had interesting cycles of articles about the Great Patriotic War and about the revolution, but it’s enough to become like Zadornov, God rest his soul. A satirist must be a satirist, and a historian a historian, do not confuse God's gift with scrambled eggs.
        1. venaya
          venaya 17 January 2018 09: 40
          +2
          Quote: Varyag_0711
          .. at least in pequidia looked in. Of course the garbage can stillbut at least in the tribes does not make mistakes.

          About trash cans completely in agreement! Only now, why do we have to climb all kinds of garbage dumps in the XNUMXst century? It seems like it's time to gradually move from sober-youthful thinking to sober assessments of our own past. Note: coming in Ванyou find water there, because the term "van" itself earlier and even now in some languages ​​means "water". By the way in the province VanDaya is an ancient city called Brest, in it the Pomors (directly connected with the "van" water) withCoastali their souls from adversity and bad weather for a very long time. And there is also a city with the same name Brest, though it is already Litovsk. Well, what kind of "Germanic tribes" are we talking about? Remember, in the year 1871, the Prussian kingdom created its empire, Prussian Empire, and after all, it’s necessary that we now call it the “German Empire” for no clear reason, but they still don’t call it that. And who needed all this to be called a Latin word with incomprehensible meaning, by the way, do you yourself know the meaning of this word in at least one of the well-known languages? So don’t tell a damn, but the author of the article thinks that he’s absolutely right here, and all sorts of "..pedia" lie according to tradition in all respects and without discrimination.
          1. Varyag_0711
            Varyag_0711 17 January 2018 10: 21
            10
            venaya Today, 09:40 ↑
            As for the garbage can completely agree! Only now, why do we have to climb all kinds of garbage dumps in the XNUMXst century?
            So you say that the vandals were not Germanic tribes, but still Slavic-Russian? Nndaaa ... recourse
            Then on the ruins of a chapel ...
            Excuse me, did I ruin the chapel too?
            No, it was before you in the XNUMXth century ...
            With such frills as:
            Prussians - Russaks;
            Etruscans - Russian;
            bathroom - Vendée;
            and other Zadornovsky delirium we will go far ...
            I say, you should not be likened to protoucras with their digging of the Black (Russian) Sea. There is an official version of the story, including the one about the great migration of peoples, which nobody really, relying on reinforced concrete facts, has denied! So in that story, vandals, like the Goths, Angles, Saxons, Gauls, are Germanic tribes.
            And then you now agree to the point that modern Germans, we are direct relatives of Aryan blood.
            For me, the question is closed today, at least until irrefutable evidence is found that all modern history is not right. There is no such evidence yet! Want to argue further and make yourself a laughing stock, request for God's sake. Personally, I am not interested in comparing the bathtub with Vendée, and Brest with Brest-Litovsk ... laughing
            1. venaya
              venaya 17 January 2018 11: 08
              +1
              Quote: Varyag_0711
              There is an official version of the story, including the great migration of peoples, which no one really, relying on reinforced concrete factsnot refuted! So in that story, vandals, like the Goths, the Angles, Saxons, Gaulsare Germanic tribes. ..
              For me, the question is closed today, at least until they are discovered irrefutable evidence that all modern history is not right. There is no such evidence yet! ..

              Facts? Be unprejudiced, no, as you clearly put it, “reinforced concrete facts”, no History has any, there hasn’t been and is not yet foreseen! A more careful study of this subject "History" reveals just the complete discrepancy between the newly discovered facts of the version that you called "official history" for unknown reasons, perhaps you do not know that at first (less than 500 years ago) it was written frankly uneducated people, from here there are already many open problems. Please note that any science that does not have its development simply goes into the rank of religion and that is how it should be considered. So the whole "reinforced concrete"And"formality"this scientific direction is more of a frank myth, although given that we are on the military website, that is, it’s a military one, it’s better to consider this" scientific "subject as an element of a long information war against not only our people but also our state and not a simple one, as you put it “ridicule.” This topic touched upon by VO is more serious than it would normally be desirable to present and once again remind of any facts of “reinforced concrete” and the “officialness” of this frankly religious myth that exist today.
              1. Varyag_0711
                Varyag_0711 17 January 2018 12: 08
                +7
                venaya Today, 11:08 ↑
                Facts? Be unprejudiced, no, as you clearly put it, "reinforced concrete facts"
                That is, Atilla is not the Hun, but the Slavic-Aryans? The Roman Empire did not exist, and Alexander of Macedon did not go anywhere, and in general he was not there either? So do you think it turns out?

                And do not shirk the question, who do you think such vandals are, the Germans, or are Slavic-Russians, after all? I want a clear and reasoned answer.
                1. venaya
                  venaya 17 January 2018 13: 25
                  +2
                  Quote: Varyag_0711
                  Attila is not the Hun, but the Slavic-Aryan? .. don’t shy away from the question, who do you think are such vandals, Germans or Slavic-Russians?

                  "Atilla not the Hun"- I do not even care about this question, who exactly was Attila. Not me, nor you, unlike the prophet Muhammad, have and cannot have any reinforced concrete evidence regarding the origin of this very legendary Attila. There is no corpse, no, unlike the prophet Muhammad, there are no objective examinations. So I think this question is not substantive. By the way, what dominant haplogroup or even a haplotype is present in these same, in Latin, "Germans"? Do you have this data? no, and no one doesn’t. And in the west (Aramaic - "Europe") of our continent there live people with dominant haplotypes of the male "Y" chromosomes from North Africa and the dominant female "X" chromosome "H" of the haplogroup inherent in just to Russian women. Let me remind you that on the lands of Pomerania and the male haplogroup R1a1, the haplotype "Z-280", which has been inherent to the Russians for five thousand years now and is 5%. Therefore, "do not shy away from the question"- on what basis did you manage to firstly residents of the Prussian kingdom and then the Empire of the Prussian kingdom for the still not certain reasons attribute at first to the Latin term" Germans "and the Prussian Empire itself also, for reasons not yet determined, also call the Latin term" German Empire ". Try not to “evade the question” this time! So even if today they still live in Vendée province, as in other things and in the Russian Federation, according to the speakers of the Karelian-Finnish languages, it’s Venets, and not some invented by the Romans, the Latins, “Germans.” Try to look for really “reinforced concrete evidence” in general at least ever the presence of these same “Germans” in Latin, even though they themselves have called themselves that Latin term at least once. Not only you favorite “reinforced concrete evidence” So, in general, there are no documents examined by examinations at all today, there have never been and are never expected to be found, all this is traditional ionic "historical" fake, which in the "official" (what a terrible word) "History" according to their tradition "dime a dozen." So try to be careful in throwing big words and be more attentive and vigilant to the information from the "historical", after all, we are in VO, and this is not "Khuhra Mukhra", the site is really serious, and very, very many note it. By the way, about Attila: In the ancient dialects of the Russian language, the term mogul is noted, it is at least 3000 years old, there is an opinion that these very Moguls from the same places as the "Huns" came to Hindustan, and that it was not at all surprising that they founded the Great Mogul Empire it is possible that Attila is also a relative of them, but no one called them “Germans”, and the British called them Arians, this empire was very rich.
                  1. Varyag_0711
                    Varyag_0711 17 January 2018 13: 54
                    +9
                    First of all, from the entire billiard that you wrote to me here, you can make one conclusion, "polybook", but the meaning is ZERO! All these studies on "X" and "Y", this is bullshit. To understand them you need to be a specialist in this field. Are you a specialist? I personally do not, so for me all this genetics is a dark forest.
                    Secondly, you again didn’t answer the question, WHO IS VANDALS ?!
                    And thirdly, I applaud this standing comment! good
                    Luga Today, 11:39 ↑
                    Quote: solzh
                    Since when did the vandals become a Slavic tribe? I did not read further ...

                    There is no historian except Samsonov Alexander and venaya - his prophet!
                    Tremble, Russophobes and aliens, bow to the pure and clear knowledge that descended from the Great Primary Source, heed the Great History. There is no doubt, there are not even opinions, there is Truth and Truth in Samsonov, for it is said
                    Wends - Venets - Vandals - a Slavic-Russian tribe living in Central Europe
                    and it became so. And much more will be said and worthy of comprehending many Truths.

                    In short, the story is happening before our eyes. And it is created by Samsonov.

                    It’s impossible to say better.
                    Then I finish the argument with you, because it is pointless to argue with the apologist of the Samson theory of the Great Slavic-Scythian-Russo-Aryans ... More fool it’s hard to find a crazy idea, well, naturally, with the exception of protouc ... laughing
                    1. venaya
                      venaya 17 January 2018 15: 21
                      +1
                      Quote: Varyag_0711
                      WHO IS VANDALS ?!

                      What a simple question! Another thing: Is it possible to explain anything to a person who simply does not want to perceive any information? The theory of teaching says that this is more unrealistic. But I’ll try again: vandals like Wends like Slovenia (you can even call them Slavs) are the indigenous inhabitants of the territory that was called “Europe” in the 4th century. Other names of this territory are also known, for example, Aeneas, it is possible also Venus (more northern dialect), the term Porusia (in the Prussia dialect) is found. Another thing is that for XNUMX thousand years this territory has been subjected to all kinds of attacks, the article on this subject was on the Military District, hence the permanent mixing of tribes and peoples, so that this term is already understood by various peoples and tribes. To date, such a name as the province of Vendée has remained, the Wends were well battered there, especially during the period of the French Revolution, then in the shortest possible time more than half of the inhabitants of the province were killed by brutal methods. And who in this case can now be called indigenous vandals? It’s a pity that you didn’t get into the DNA of gynealogy, everything is simpler and more understandable. And the fact that you referred to Luga is a significant indicator, it was he who wrote the unforgettable that: Europe is Europe, and Germany is Germany. at such a level in choosing the priority of your personal authorities, I really “pass,” just washing my hands.
              2. Spnsr
                Spnsr 17 January 2018 12: 27
                +4
                Well, if you talk like that, but having previously abandoned some terms, then an interesting story is visible.
                Russia, rowers in galleys, initially mastered, now it is called European, part of Eurasia.
                Somewhere in the late 12th and early 13th centuries, this part was seized by some separatism and civil strife, which laid the foundation for further events in history, and after the beginning of the collapse of a larger empire, when the Ottomans took power in Constantinople, the wave of separatism intensified! And after a generation, Ivan 4, was able to afford to declare himself the next ruler of this empire, declares Moscow the Third Rome and begins the unification of cities and lands under his leadership, the opposition to which led to a war with our Western partners!
                Moreover, the announcement of himself as the heir to August, the annexation of Kazan, Astrakhan, some territories of Siberia, and the attempt to withdraw taxpayers from the Ottomans led to an attempt by the Ottomans to subjugate the Third Rome, the result of this attempt was the Battle of Molody! After which the Ottomans weakened enough so that the western part of Europe could conduct a reconquista and begin construction in the western part of Europe more or less similar to the modern political map of Western Europe!
                It very much looks like this war is nothing but the gathering of Russian lands by Ivan the Terrible ...
                1. Spnsr
                  Spnsr 18 January 2018 11: 17
                  0
                  In general, the Romanovs did it all the same! And the Empire returned, if not to the initial, then very close to the initial size! Although the Ottomans and the British had similar aspirations!
          2. Hantengri
            Hantengri 17 January 2018 19: 34
            +2
            Quote: venaya
            It seems like it's time to gradually move from sober-youthful thinking to sober assessments of our own past.

            If you are talking about yourself - I am for it with both hands! For reading this:
            Quote: venaya
            “Attilla is not the Hun” - I am not even interested in this question, who exactly was Attila. Not me, nor you, unlike the prophet Muhammad, there is and cannot be any reinforced concrete evidence regarding the origin of this very legendary Attila. There is no corpse, no, unlike the Prophet Muhammad, no objective examinations ..................... (and to the point) ... Mogul, it is quite possible that Attila also a relative of them, but no one called them “Germans”, and the British called them Arians, this empire was very rich.
            It causes me an attack of violent agreement with the set of D. Puchkov (Goblin) that the epithet: “juvenile de 'bill” is not a reference to age in the passport, but a direct indication of the state of mental development of the patient, no matter how old he is, the moment was not!
          3. aleks700
            aleks700 20 January 2018 15: 25
            0
            By the way, in the province of Vendée there is an ancient city called Brest
            Yes, and Brest is still in Brittany. This is a slightly different region. And in Brittany live the Bretons. Therefore, Brest.
        2. Basil50
          Basil50 17 January 2018 10: 20
          +4
          Varangian
          You are right, * wide strokes * in history are certainly convenient, because they hide a lot.
          About the mistakes of Ivan the Terrible is not worth it, well, he could not have foreseen betrayals from the side like * the elite *. And Kostomarov should not be referenced, he lived much later, and he had an order which he fulfilled.
          It is better to consider how in reality * squeezed out * those who hang out there in the Baltics, how they turned both the Poles and the Baltic states and the population of Baltic Germany into what exists today. Consider the practice of transcoding peoples. Ukraine as an example. In the * enlightened * twentieth century, dissent was simply destroyed by entire villages, preventing the possibility of emigration.
          Galicia is an example in the practice of Caucasians at the beginning of the twentieth century, when dissenters were cut out, and the rest were required to be completely subordinated, even changing the language even for communication in the family.
          GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR an example of the action of mid-century Caucasians.
          Yugoslavia is an example of the end of the twentieth century.
          .
          1. Varyag_0711
            Varyag_0711 17 January 2018 10: 26
            11
            Vasily50 Today, 10:20 ↑
            It is better to consider how in reality * squeezed out * those who hang out there in the Baltics, how they turned both the Poles and the Baltic states and the population of Baltic Germany into what exists today. Consider the practice of transcoding peoples. Ukraine as an example.
            And here I agree, completely and completely! Recoding is in full swing, however, it has been going on for a very, very long time. At least already 2018 years since the "Nativity of Christ". Look at what the Poles have turned into, this is a flock of lousy mongrels licking the hand of any strong master and constantly barking at their kind as fellow Slavic blood.
            1. Des10
              Des10 17 January 2018 13: 15
              0
              Quote: Varyag_0711
              Recoding is in full swing, however, it has been going on for a very, very long time. At least already 2018 years since the "Nativity of Christ". Look at what the Poles have turned into, this is a flock of lousy mongrels licking the hand of any strong master and constantly barking at their kind as fellow Slavic blood.

              no need to incite and violate the rules of the site - otherwise - the words about who the ~ Slavs, paying tribute and suffering abuse from behind, from --- not "brothers" in the Caucasus are quite appropriate.
          2. Basil50
            Basil50 17 January 2018 15: 27
            +4
            About how many opinions and emotions. All sorrows from a lot of knowledge. Toli is a matter of faith. He believed in Christ and everything, any stupidity becomes true. Moreover, faith in Christ has already become a scientific discipline, are we waiting for academicians in the study of Christ, or is there already?
        3. co-creator
          co-creator 17 January 2018 12: 50
          +3
          Quote: Varyag_0711
          but enough already to become like Zadornov,

          Norm man, troll historians and linguists.
        4. andrew42
          andrew42 20 March 2018 09: 57
          0
          Wendes - ours, vandals (vendels) - these are not ours at all? Another 100 years and the Slavic Slavs, the same inhabitants of Branibor, Drozdyan, Lipsk, Zverin and Rostock, all will become entirely “Germans”. The only ones who are 100% “Germans” are the Franks, who crawled into the vast expanses of Europe from the 3-gon Belgium - West Germany - North-East France. Well, it’s not for nothing that Attila poured them the Burgundians, which is a fact. With the rest of the Heruli and Thuringians, and even with the tribes that subsequently formed the Saxon tribal alliance, the question is open with these. The Romans of the German nation - yes, this late self-identification is unequivocal. The ancient "Germans" are slurred nonsense by Roman historians.
      2. Yura Yakovlev
        Yura Yakovlev 17 January 2018 09: 40
        +1
        Wends, venets are Vyatichi. E with the nasal "n" from Slavic languages ​​goes into Russian open
        the sound of "I."
        For example: tackle for fishing in the Russian language has two names - fourfold and venter.
        1. venaya
          venaya 17 January 2018 09: 48
          +1
          Quote: Yura Yakovlev
          Wends, Venets - it's Vyatichi. E with bow "n" .. (fishing tackle) ..

          Confess that the roots of these words are "veins"And"Ван"in the oldest dialects of the Russian language are directly related specifically to water. Hence, many derived words from these roots arise, naturally according to the laws of word formation of Russian-speaking words.
          1. Yura Yakovlev
            Yura Yakovlev 17 January 2018 10: 14
            0
            There is only one root, just the transformation of sounds from Slavic into Russian: a hare is a hare. Vyatshy (other Russian) - wreath (Polish); dove - golemb; deep - glamboco.
          2. Conductor
            Conductor 17 January 2018 10: 34
            +5
            And in Turkey there is Lake Van! There probably lived the ancient Slavs.
            1. Varyag_0711
              Varyag_0711 17 January 2018 10: 46
              +9
              Conductor Today, 10: 34 ↑
              And in Turkey there is Lake Van! There probably lived the ancient Slavs.
              I think that if you look well on the map, you will find about a dozen names of rivers, lakes or other bodies of water in Africa, Asia or two Americas, consonant with the root "van" ... There, along the way, our ancestors were also noted. However, if, according to scientists, the Earth was one continent several million years ago, then why not assume that we, from the Negro to the Mongoloid, are brothers descended from Adam and Eve, who were either ancient proto-Ukrainians, or Slav-Arians ... laughing laughing laughing Well, here only Samsonov and Bebik can figure it out. And then, only after a liter of gorilka-vodka on the nose.
              1. venaya
                venaya 17 January 2018 11: 23
                +2
                Quote: Varyag_0711
                Conductor Today, 10: 34 ↑
                And in Turkey there is Lake Van! ..
                I think that if you look well on the map, you will find about a dozen names of rivers, lakes or other bodies of water in Africa, Asia or two Americas, consonant with the root "van" ... There, along the way, our ancestors were also noted.

                It is rightly noted that in Anatolia there are frankly Russian-speaking names, and not only names. Here you should pay attention to our coat of arms today, but it is also possible from Anatolia. Think of a very ancient state like Hittite KingdomSince 1917, it was recognized that there lived white people speaking and writing in the language of northern dialects. So they just discovered this very emblem, adopted as a state of our state. Does this surprise you? Read about it, it is interesting and very informative. So the Russian-speaking names in place names of those places are not a coincidence at all, but truly a regularity, it is a pity that too few people know about it yet.
                1. Yura Yakovlev
                  Yura Yakovlev 17 January 2018 12: 07
                  0
                  The symbol and patron of Byzantium is the crescent moon, is depicted on many Middle Eastern flags and emblems, and also in the form of the lower crossbar is located on the Orthodox cross.
                  1. venaya
                    venaya 17 January 2018 13: 53
                    +1
                    Quote: Yura Yakovlev
                    The symbol and patron saint of Byzantium is the crescent moon, depicted on many Middle Eastern flags and emblems ..

                    You know, even on the site dedicated to the Syrian war, they write (in English) that the term "Allah" in the ancient languages ​​of the Arabian peninsula had the meaning of the God of the Moon. Take an interest in this question, earlier it was covered more often. Now remember when it’s defeated by time Hittite Kingdom, and when a new, Abrahamic religion called Islam appeared. It seems like a millennium passed between these events, hence the change in state symbols, which is not at all surprising.
            2. Cat
              Cat 17 January 2018 18: 55
              +3
              Quote: Conductor
              And in Turkey there is Lake Van! There probably lived the ancient Slavs.

              Don't know laugh or cry !!!?
              Is there Mount Herman in Africa !?
              In our Chukotka Lake Africa !?

              Van-water, Dan-water, Va-water, ha-river .............. examples are given from Indo-European, Finno-Ugric languages
              An aspiring linguist, seeing such a relationship in joy, opens up "America", more precisely the Volga. The only trouble is that in the standings he gets bad!
              So the novice linguist look for a particular Volga, Serga - the river, but ...........
              Another example: Lysva, Kosva, Chusovaya, Sosva, Moscow .........
              And you about Lake Van in modern Turkey !!!
              And what does "yes" mean ..........?

              With all due respect, Your Cat from the bank of the Sekilda River! And yet that means yes! repeat
              1. Luga
                Luga 17 January 2018 20: 21
                +3
                Cat, I will support you.
                I’m interested in our homegrown linguists thought that in Russian since ancient times to designate the concept of water, there has always been its own word. Which one? I think they will be surprised to learn that this word is "water." Not a "van," not a "vein," namely water. Such a simple Russian word. And to denote the concept of the river there was a word, do not believe it, "river", but not "ha" and not "don".
                Think, guys, what is the Russian language if the word "water" in it is "van" and not "water".
                Languages ​​are everything! - they change over time, the pronunciation changes, some sounds are replaced by others, words from other languages ​​are borrowed, some words become obsolete or take on a new meaning, but all, absolutely all of these changes are subject to complex, but clearly formulated by linguists, laws that can be expressed almost with mathematical precision. True, you need to know these laws, you need to be able to apply them, and for this you need to learn ...
                But our geniuses do not need it. One said - a bath, the other added - Ivan, the third picked up - Lake Van and all with one voice - there is Russian land, Russia smells there, well, and the vandals, like a cherry on a cake - are Russian.
                Unless you see the wretchedness and far-fetchedness of such constructions, a person who is not at all burdened by critical thinking can be called weak-witted, or someone who invents these constructions himself, because, according to the Russian proverb, he doesn’t smell his own, and he couldn’t invent anything better in life and will fail. There is another third option - a deliberate deception out of mercenary motives (I suspect that someone Fomenko is driven by just such a motive), but this motive is hardly suitable for users of this resource ... It is unlikely that they will receive money for this, although, on the other hand, anything happens.
      3. Mikado
        Mikado 17 January 2018 12: 57
        +4
        People who speak Karelian-Finnish languages ​​are still called Venetians of the Russian Federation, for example, Finnish - venäläinen, venäläinen, venäjänkielinen, Estonian - Venemaa, etc.

        thus, comparing the epic heroes, we get that Väinemäinen and Ilya Muromets are one and the same person, only the first one also has a kantele in his hands. fellow Joke. hi
        1. Luga
          Luga 17 January 2018 14: 10
          +4
          Quote: Mikado
          Joke.

          What does a joke mean?
          They don’t joke about such things.
          The Finns clearly licked their "Kalevala" from Russian epics and fairy tales. Three heroes, Baba Yaga, a self-assembled tablecloth, for some reason shoved into a semblance of a washing machine (well, what to take from them, “sad stepsons of nature”, in the sense of the “Scythian-Russian world”?), Everything is like ours, only in smaller scale and slightly castrated. Obvious evidence that Karelian-Finia has been part of the Great Scythian-Russian-Aryan Empire since time immemorial.
          Oh, the great Samsonov Alexander, listen to me and rejoice, for thy seed gave its seedlings ...
          ... you have not seen my pills?
          1. Mikado
            Mikado 17 January 2018 14: 30
            +4
            everything is like ours, only on a smaller scale and slightly neutered.

            I would add - and holozado! laughing
            Oh, the great Samsonov Alexander, listen to me and rejoice, for thy seed gave its seedlings ...
            ... you have not seen my pills?

            Mikhail, if you do not drive Hyde tablets back into the nooks of the subconscious, you risk becoming the second Rev! laughing good class, clearly! drinks pills - to the Good Doctor! laughing
          2. Yura Yakovlev
            Yura Yakovlev 17 January 2018 15: 42
            +1
            "Obvious evidence that Karelian-Finia has been part of the Great Scythian-Russian-Aryan Empire since time immemorial."
            Not at all obvious. In Novgorod, archaeologists found an ancient cemetery, where the men had a Slavic appearance, and their wives were broad-faced, were ugrofins. Thus, assimilation was carried out very systematically. It is possible that this happened in the cultural sphere.
            1. Spnsr
              Spnsr 17 January 2018 16: 30
              +1
              Well, as you say, Karelofinia was part of the Russian Empire and it’s enough for Russian fairy tales to come there, and to create a structure of self-government there, and some kind of economy will be raised, which will allow them to declare their independence! It was not so long ago, and it did not take so much time ...
            2. Cat
              Cat 17 January 2018 19: 08
              +2
              Yuri Respect, you and respect were pleased with the new scientific term - "Ugrofin" !!! Sivkov is now crying into a “sex rag.” You personally killed him - a doctor’s!
              The author's article on the content is a deeply revised history of Kostomarov.
              My advice to you, Yuri, read Kostomarov in the original. He has a few guesses about the Finns and Suomi. Interesting versions about the origin of the latter are presented by Tatishchev, Trubetskov and Egorov. By the way, the last linguist.
              1. Yura Yakovlev
                Yura Yakovlev 17 January 2018 19: 43
                +1
                Thank you for the compliment, but I was not going to offend anyone, I just brought a well-known fact, which for some reason is not on the Internet.
                1. Yura Yakovlev
                  Yura Yakovlev 17 January 2018 19: 52
                  0
                  For less doubt, look at the portrait of Andrei Bogolyubsky, created by reconstruction of Gerasimov based on the real skull of Andrei Bogolyubsky
                2. Cat
                  Cat 17 January 2018 21: 35
                  +3
                  I wonder if the Russian married Mansi, whose children will be whose?
                  There is a general rule that a more cultural and socio-economically developed ethnos incorporates a less cultural one. The expansion in the territory of "Ukraine" and "limits" was due precisely to these reasons!
                  By the way, this rule contains the answer to the question - where did it go: Tatar-Mongol invaders? If a purebred Mongol had branches of Jochi's wife and concubines: a Chinese woman, a Chuvash, a Bulgarian, a Slav. Then his children will be who? And after three or four generations? After that, the "opus" on DNA research can only cause laughter.
                  As the Romans said "Law of the soil"!
                  And later, where did the Cossacks in Siberia look for women?
                  According to Andrei Bogolyubsky, who do we know is dad, and who was mom?
                  In addition to the Bazivilis, the branch of Vladimir Monomakh had a glorious custom to enter into political marriages with the Polovtsian khans.
                  1. Yura Yakovlev
                    Yura Yakovlev 18 January 2018 09: 51
                    0
                    “If a purebred Mongol had branches of Jochi's wife and concubines: a Chinese woman, a Chuvash, a Bulgarian, a Slav. Will his children be who? And in three or four generations?”
                    In a purebred Mongol, children will be purebred Mongols. Genetic memory is transmitted only by a man, and a woman is a "flash drive" - ​​a way to transfer memory over time. It is precisely taking this property into account that our ancestors carried out expansion in the development of the outskirts. Of course, in the first generations, a woman conveys her race attributes, but gradually this is smoothed out.
                    Human DNA can be built either on the basis of adenine, or on the basis of guanine. All of humanity is divided into twenty genera, and only two of them have adenine-based DNA. It is clear that these are chemically completely different people, they are differently ill, they are treated differently by conventional drugs. They have everything else, another - metabolism and other processes of thinking. This genus is the haplogroup R1a1. This is at least 50% of the Russian people.
                    This feature makes us, on the one hand, a people creator, and on the other hand, not able to bring things to technological perfection.
                    1. Cat
                      Cat 18 January 2018 19: 21
                      +1
                      Is it sad?
                      The answer is simpler, it will belong to the culture in which the child was raised.
                      Watch the cartoon Mowgli!
                      Even more in the second or third generation, he will tear on himself "lace panties" and scream that he is a descendant ...........
                      1. smaug78
                        smaug78 18 January 2018 20: 12
                        0
                        But what about chromosomes and arias? drinks
                      2. Yura Yakovlev
                        Yura Yakovlev 19 January 2018 10: 03
                        0
                        Howl or not howl if you fall into a wolf pack? What to do, in court or in conscience? Each one decides for himself with his own inner voice, which, in fact, is the genetic memory of the ancestors. It seems to me that everything depends not on the upbringing of a person in society, but on the homogeneity of society itself. If you look at the genetic composition of the population of Western Ukraine, then no morality can resist such a rabble (collection of labor). And here it should be noted that between nationalities (collections of generic haplogroups) there are very significant differences in the behavioral character. If Russian and German are brought up in the same society and speak the same language, then the reaction to any phenomenon is different for them. The Russian in the tram will give way to the drunk, and the German will be thrown out of the drunk from the tram.
      4. Weyland
        Weyland 18 January 2018 22: 44
        +1
        Quote: venaya
        Until now, people have lived in the province of Vendée for centuries who have called themselves Venets.

        The Venetians of Paphlagonia after the Trojan War first migrated along the Danube and its tributaries to the northeast. Italy, where they founded Venice (Prov. Veneto), and then part of them left to the west (Venetian Armorica, ancestors of the Vendeans), and part to the north (both Wenedos and Vandals went from them). At the same time, they gradually switched to the languages ​​of the surrounding tribes - the Venetians of the Adriatic became Latin-speaking, in Armorica they became Celtic-speaking, the Wends-Slavic-speaking, the Vandals-German-speaking. But the relations between the dispersed relatives were not interrupted: for example, the famous Amber Road "connected the Veneti of the Alriatic and the Baltic.
        1. smaug78
          smaug78 19 January 2018 19: 50
          +1
          We look at the map: where is Troy, after where is Paphlogonia and we understand that you had a deuce in geography at school. laughing Hence all the problems ...
    2. andrew42
      andrew42 17 January 2018 11: 05
      +3
      Why not read on? - Good article. everything is tied into one, step by step. and as for the vandals, the division of the Germans - Slavs initially comes from the words of the governors of the northern provinces of the Roman Empire, which cannot be particularly trusted in the "classification of barbarians". It’s enough to recall at least the name of the “Germanic” tribe, whose leader was Arminius — they were called cherusks. Finally, “Germans” can only be called tribal unions at a much later time, centuries since the 6th, and for one main reason - the loss of their dialect and the transition to warped Latin.
      1. Cherkashin Ivan
        Cherkashin Ivan 17 January 2018 13: 11
        +4
        Wow, philologists pulled themselves up. You opened our eyes so well to the “Cherusks", but I don’t understand why you are not looking for kindred peoples according to the first syllable of the word. Here, discoveries would probably have been even cooler.
        1. andrew42
          andrew42 17 January 2018 21: 14
          +2
          What exercises in wit! Did I write that Cherusks = Russian? - No. I justly pointed out that there is no confidence in the classification of tribes as “Germans,” for one simple reason that this term is purely Roman. And if you take the venerable German historians, they would be given free rein, they would have written the Han in the "Germans", in honor of the Holy Roman Empire, the German nation. Here, for example, the Goths roamed around Tauris and the Podunavu, but no one added them to Tauris, Scythians (although there are such blunders from Byzantine sources, but rare) or to "sklavins" (again the Byzantine term). And why? - So we agreed that the Goths from the “Scandza island” ran into Crimea in less than 100 years, and that’s it! In the end, I just want to say that we must be extremely careful about the names of tribes and peoples, whose transcription is taken from Roman, and even from Byzantine chronicles. Otherwise, you need to stake out the "one-eyed arimasp" forever, hang on the wall as an icon, and not to question.
          1. Cherkashin Ivan
            Cherkashin Ivan 18 January 2018 09: 02
            0
            Exercise in wit is a defensive reaction from linguistic research like Zadorny. You indicated only the coincidence of certain sounds in the name of the tribe and the name of the people of which centuries have been sharing. How to take this seriously?
      2. parusnik
        parusnik 17 January 2018 13: 35
        +6
        Heruski, all the same, were Germans, not Slavs .. This is also called the name "Herruski", the second "r" fell out over time, and the translation of the simple "fig (h.ep.) to you, we are not Russian ... laughing
        1. Varyag_0711
          Varyag_0711 17 January 2018 13: 59
          +9
          parusnik Today, 13:35 ↑
          Heruski, all the same, were Germans, not Slavs ..
          Alexei, welcome namesake! hi Be more careful with the "Germans", otherwise they will explain to you right now that there were no Germans at all. Here, such experts gathered X and Y chromosomes, which I am already afraid for my consciousness.
          1. venaya
            venaya 17 January 2018 14: 21
            +2
            Quote: Varyag_0711
            Be more careful with the "Germans", otherwise they will explain to you right now that there were no Germans at all.

            It may be and were, but you still have not even explained what language and what meaning this term may have. My guess is that here we are talking about a certain military caste, for example: "duke" = "leader of the detachment." Does the term "Germans" in this case have at least some ethnic meaning or origin from a certain locality? That is the question, otherwise people often throw themselves at unfamiliar terminology, not even having an idea of ​​what each specific term can mean. I think that I have now clearly formulated my question.
          2. parusnik
            parusnik 17 January 2018 14: 36
            +3
            Welcome hi Uchtu smile
        2. Spnsr
          Spnsr 17 January 2018 16: 40
          +4
          Quote: parusnik
          Heruski, all the same, were Germans, not Slavs .. This is also called the name "Herruski", the second "r" fell out over time, and the translation of the simple "fig (h.ep.) to you, we are not Russian ... laughing

          laughing Well, Ukraine is also not Russia laughing Herrusky too laughing not Germans but Ukrainians laughing
        3. andrew42
          andrew42 17 January 2018 21: 17
          0
          I can only say that SO we can brainpower. But in any case, it will be only our speculation, albeit from the opposite position. Here, resurrect a Roman of the 1st century AD, ask him "what is a German" in his understanding - then I’ll take off my hat. But, unfortunately, this is not feasible.
          1. The comment was deleted.
        4. andrew42
          andrew42 20 March 2018 10: 06
          0
          Wit of the type “x..r-not-Russian” at least gives the same Russians, and according to the stereotype of behavior it corresponds to the modern descendants of the Great Dukes. If (r) webs enriched the Romano-Germanic mov with the modern Herr appeal, then you must admit that this is too big for all of Germany within modern borders. This is certainly "Fomenkovism", only German. :)) And in general, it’s insulting that Fossmey is why German "Fomen" have the right to attribute historical mega greatness to the descendants of horned savages in cow skins breaking Roman aqueducts, and we are forbidden to have a "fomen".
      3. Spnsr
        Spnsr 17 January 2018 16: 37
        +3
        Quote: andrew42
        Finally, “Germans” can only be called tribal unions at a much later time, centuries since the 6th, and for one main reason - the loss of their dialect and the transition to warped Latin.

        Or centuries 10-12 later, centuries 18-19, when someone tried to collect these lands under their own control and for their descendants! For some reason, in this respect, Bismarck does not give me peace! So he is the father of the Germans, only his idea didn’t go further than the German! Well do not understand who the Germans are!
      4. Cat
        Cat 17 January 2018 19: 45
        +3
        Quote: andrew42
        Why not read on? - Good article. everything is tied into one, step by step.

        The article is unfortunately a mixture of bullshit with the truth. Only I can’t understand whether the article under the Author was chosen, or the Author under the article !?
        Unfortunately, this work does not shine with a harmonious chronology.

        and as for the vandals, the division of the Germans - Slavs initially comes from the words of the governors of the northern provinces of the Roman Empire, which cannot be particularly trusted in the "classification of barbarians".

        With all due respect to you, the Roman scholars knew someone and the Germans thoroughly as enemies and as federals. By the way, many Roman scholars of the late empire were descendants of the federates, as well as a number of emperors. So there could be overlays, but not in relation to a group of Germanic tribes.
        It’s enough to recall at least the name of the “Germanic” tribe, whose leader was Arminius — they were called cherusks.

        And where were the Etruscans? Yes, and Roksalanov offended. In addition, there were Rugs, Ruhrs, and others. Ayayayay!
        Finally, “Germans” can only be called tribal unions at a much later time, centuries since the 6th, and for one main reason - the loss of their dialect and the transition to warped Latin.

        Okay Germanarich - banned, Atila nervously smokes aside and tears a forelock, he then naive thought he defeated the first. But no, it was not so !!!
        My precious Andreev, please google, what is a GROUP OF INDOOR EUROPEAN LANGUAGES! And there will be HAPPINESS to you!
        It’s a pity I won’t be able to see your facial expression when not great-Slavic-Russians, but Tajiks, Hindus, British, Greeks, Germans, Russians will contact you step by step;
    3. Luga
      Luga 17 January 2018 11: 39
      10
      Quote: solzh
      Since when did the vandals become a Slavic tribe? I did not read further ...

      There is no historian except Samsonov Alexander and venaya - his prophet!
      Tremble, Russophobes and aliens, bow to the pure and clear knowledge that descended from the Great Primary Source, heed the Great History. There is no doubt, there are not even opinions, there is Truth and Truth in Samsonov, for it is said
      Wends - Venets - Vandals - a Slavic-Russian tribe living in Central Europe
      and it became so. And much more will be said and worthy of comprehending many Truths.

      In short, the story is happening before our eyes. And it is created by Samsonov.
    4. Artek
      Artek 17 January 2018 18: 15
      +3
      Quote: solzh
      Since when did the vandals become a Slavic tribe? I did not read further ...


      if you look at the modern GDR, then this country is all riddled with Russian / Slavic place names, it is now, but what happened before?

  2. Olgovich
    Olgovich 17 January 2018 07: 19
    +5
    The war, absolutely unnecessary and unlucky for the Russian kingdom: led to the war with Lithuania, the unification (strengthening) of the eternal enemies of Russia-Lithuania and Poland, the war on the territory of Russia itself and the loss of the coastal cities of Yam, Koporye and Ivangorod, drained the country's economy.
    1. Trapperxnumx
      Trapperxnumx 17 January 2018 16: 54
      +1
      Quote: Olgovich
      The war, absolutely unnecessary and unlucky for the Russian kingdom: led to the war with Lithuania, the unification (strengthening) of the eternal enemies of Russia-Lithuania and Poland, the war on the territory of Russia itself and the loss of the coastal cities of Yam, Koporye and Ivangorod, drained the country's economy.

      Absolutely agree. In addition, they started it without allies, climbed in with the most viper - Poland and Sweden looked at these lands, and our troops just helped everyone - they broke the order and cleared the way for the enemy, as a result, they not only got nothing, but also lost their own . Wasn’t it easier to initially build a port city at the mouth of the Neva, protect it, develop its trade and fleet, as Peter did in the end, and bypassing the Baltic states, meanwhile, will agree on the division of the order into three equal parts ...
  3. parusnik
    parusnik 17 January 2018 07: 23
    +7
    The article is written in the spirit: I now know your story, how the fuck? - So it means: Caesar was killed, but they still didn’t succeed there! - There were two more. - A relative of Caesar Octavian and fellow Caesar - Anthony. - Well, how? - Is that what Severov taught you? - No! - It's me, well, extra!
  4. Morozov
    Morozov 17 January 2018 08: 10
    +6
    and again Samsonov laughing "historian and analyst" of "military" review
    1. Cat
      Cat 17 January 2018 19: 57
      +4
      Lying, Lying - our dear friend Morozov.
      Mikado and I recently “laughed”, the admins of “all four cats” switched to “cons”.
      So, mentioning Samsonov’s sue, train yourself to correctly place “exclamation points”, not “quotation marks”!
  5. Cartalon
    Cartalon 17 January 2018 08: 25
    +2
    Well, of course, waging a war with the Crimea, and in fact with the Ottomans, to start another war is the height of state wisdom.
    1. andrew42
      andrew42 17 January 2018 11: 13
      +1
      Wars went everywhere. Here the cause of the war is an extreme need, above all economic. In the second turn, - political - Muscovy gained strength, it was time to return what was lost until the "Westerners" finally "digested" the stolen goods (which later happened). Turkey in those days was on the verge of a total war with all Christians of Western Europe, so the moment was quite suitable. I completely agree with Ivan Vasilyevich: the reason for the final defeat in Livonia is internal treason. Sabotage, parochialism and conspiracy with geopolitical opponents of some of the princely families of the Moscow kingdom. Since the time of the Battle of Kulikovo (wherever it might have been) the alignment has not changed - then the "Fryzh regiments" fought against the Muscovites, later the "zealous Catholics" of Poland and Sweden - the Pope and his curia knew their job perfectly.
    2. Cherkashin Ivan
      Cherkashin Ivan 17 January 2018 13: 05
      +2
      And did the war with the Crimean Khanate stop here? From the time of Ivan III Vasilievich until the moment of the conquest of the peninsula, the raids did not stop. It turns out Peter I, also a rare "genius"? Did Karl have to give everything the main thing so that in case of the Crimean raids the troops were ready?
      I’ll tell you more, Ivan the Terrible also conquered Siberia, well, generally a shorter sucker, there were few problems, he still trampled “behind a stone”.
      1. Cat
        Cat 17 January 2018 20: 21
        +2
        Quote: Cherkashin Ivan / quote
        I’ll tell you more, Ivan the Terrible also conquered Siberia, well, generally a shorter sucker, there were few problems, he still trampled “behind a stone”.

        In Siberia, here honestly it turned out "purely in the Russian spirit." Ermak for the Stone went with the "kondachka" to take zipuns, to disturb the Tatars. In fact, a certain diversion raid behind enemy lines in order to divert the main enemy forces from Cherdany. The chronicles track the complaints of sovereign people against the Strogonovs that Yermak missed. In oral legends it is described that Ivan was angry at the Strogonovs, demanding that the chieftain be returned back.
        But it was too late. So Tsar Ivan was not the initiator of the campaign of Yermak. But he created all the prerequisites for the situation. Moreover, already for fifteen years he was considered the king of Siberia.
        Who with 700 Cossacks and hunting people are fighting the Siberian Khanate. None. And it took and fell. After three children sitting in Siberia, Yermakovites left Kyshim. But the cart went downhill ....... a century later, a Russian man was "scratching his turnips" on the banks of the Berengov Strait. And V. Bering has not even given birth to this world.
        1. Cherkashin Ivan
          Cherkashin Ivan 18 January 2018 09: 06
          +1
          Well, the cart would not have gone downhill, even from a cliff, would not have fallen, without royal will. So the conquest of Siberia was largely a state affair.
  6. parma
    parma 17 January 2018 10: 00
    +3
    These are all the beastmen from alpha centaurs and Zhidomasons, they are to blame for everything! And the simpletons (somehow I like the name more, by the way, there’s even a prefix from Latin, the language of the "Etruscans") is the best! And they dug up the Caspian Sea with spoons ....
  7. Torins
    Torins 17 January 2018 10: 17
    +5
    Quote: solzh
    Since when did the vandals become a Slavic tribe? I did not read further ...

    The articles of this author are akin to the claims of Ukrainian historians about the super nation of ancient ukrov. I did not read further either.
  8. Naputeon bonaput
    Naputeon bonaput 17 January 2018 11: 26
    +1
    The war fundamentally shook the foundations of the Russian state. Tsar Ivan left the descendants of a weakened country with degenerate dynasties. The Time of Troubles is the result of Grozny’s “wise” policies.
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 17 January 2018 12: 53
      +5
      What nonsense. After Ivan, everything was fine with the country.
    2. Cherkashin Ivan
      Cherkashin Ivan 17 January 2018 12: 58
      +3
      The death of Ivan the Terrible - 1584, the beginning of the Time of Troubles - 1598, 14 years between these events. With the same success we can say that L.I. Brezhnev is guilty of the first Chechen war for example.
      1. Naputeon bonaput
        Naputeon bonaput 17 January 2018 14: 53
        0
        If L.I. Brezhnev had hurricane in the Caucasus before, yes.
        The inability of the king to aggravate his health, mental above all. In a fit of rage, he killed his son Ivan, a young man who was healthy and strong, both mentally and physically. By this he deprived the country of a promising ruler. Already for this, Grozny should be condemned at least morally.
        1. venaya
          venaya 17 January 2018 15: 31
          +3
          Quote: Naputeon Bonaput
          In a fit of rage, he killed his son Ivan, a young man who was healthy and strong, both mentally and physically. ..for this Terrible should be condemned at least morally.

          Why are you driving this bullshit here? The Romanovs did not know how to legitimize the right to stay in power, hence, above all, all these tales. Studies say that in order to seize power in the country, almost all candidates for the throne were physically killed, and this was about 80 people, the son of Grozny was no exception, because he was the first on the list, they write that it is also poisoning. So carefully choose the sources of your information, a complete disinformation has already hesitated. So try better to condemn liars and misinformation.
          1. Naputeon bonaput
            Naputeon bonaput 17 January 2018 16: 05
            0
            Sorry, but you have a solid conspiracy thesis. Are there facts other than speculation?
            1. venaya
              venaya 17 January 2018 16: 20
              +3
              Quote: Naputeon Bonaput
              Are there facts other than speculation?

              Facts? Please familiarize yourself with the studies conducted back in the 60s over bone remains, there was found more than a hundred-fold excess of arsenic, there were publications on this subject. Why are they not advertised? By the way, about conspiracy theology: Studies of the skull of Ivan IV's son did not show any mechanical disturbances, the version of the murder with a heavy object was completely rejected. What facts are you able to cite in support of your version, which was born in the XNUMXth century, by the way, because in fact you have a solid conspiracy thesis, without reference to any evidence base. Volumes by serious researchers have already been written on this subject, it is a pity that they are not yet available to the general public, but nah, on these works. relies on today's most respected historians.
              1. Naputeon bonaput
                Naputeon bonaput 17 January 2018 16: 59
                0
                Arsenic was treated in those days. It is a fact.
                The skull of Ivan Ivanovich is actually destroyed. It is a fact. True, he does not confirm the 100% version of the murder (it is impossible to conduct an examination), but indirectly can serve as evidence. Ivan the Terrible was a mentally unstable person, there was a certain conflict between him and his son. It is a fact.
                1. venaya
                  venaya 17 January 2018 17: 29
                  +2
                  Quote: Naputeon Bonaput
                  Ivan the Terrible was a mentally unstable person, there was a certain conflict between him and his son. It is a fact.

                  This "fact"I’ll ask you to document about mental imbalance, as well as about some conflict with the successor. After all, Ivan IV was by no means the most outstanding king in the entire history of the Russian state, as his direct researchers write about, therefore, given this circumstance, I can reasonably assume that at the moment frank harassment of the past of our country, which can be regarded as anti-state propaganda.So this is a serious matter, prepare specific official documents already available on the Internet confirming this frankly anti-Russian version of events.
                  1. Naputeon bonaput
                    Naputeon bonaput 17 January 2018 17: 39
                    0
                    The result of the reign - Time of Troubles. It’s good that in Europe the Thirty Years War has begun. Otherwise, this hour would be in Polish with you.
                    1. venaya
                      venaya 17 January 2018 18: 10
                      +3
                      Quote: Naputeon Bonaput
                      The result of the reign - Time of Troubles.

                      His period of administration would not have been so successful, then there would have been no need for the thugs of the Russian land of all his possible successors. With such logical chains as you operate here, it is quite possible to accuse Stalin of starting and inciting WWII and WWII, because he also lifted Russia under the name of the USSR from economic knees, and because of it someone had to fork out for the election of A. Hitler, the rise of the economy of the 3rd Reich to the level of the possibility of war with the USSR. So Ivan IV is to blame, but it’s to blame for the fact that he also raised Russia-Russia to an economic and military-political competitor to some dependent countries, and especially the Vatican itself. This must be taken into account and not invent not existing it "sins"or there are any oversights, especially since there is no evidence or documents confirming this Russophobic version in nature. By the way, the information war with Russia began precisely during his reign, which best describes Ivan IV himself and the time of his reign and what is it that you are now engaged in this very informational diversion, the beginning of which arose during this period, in view of the really high success of this ruler of the country? And what about the Polish language? So did it even exist then? It seems like it appeared after all later they were still they spoke Russian, but the new, just written Abrahamic religion was just the Romanovs (or rather Alexy Zakharyin Koshkin) and managed to start introducing them in Russia. Maybe you also didn't know anything about this?
            2. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 17 January 2018 20: 20
              +4
              And here I will support Venia. What are the facts of the murder, except for Repin? Was he hiding behind a tapestry? And what are the facts about his imbalance? In those days, much more people were executed in Europe and England.
              1. venaya
                venaya 17 January 2018 21: 58
                +1
                Quote: Mordvin 3
                .. I’ll support Venia here ..

                And who is Venia? More details pzhst.
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 17 January 2018 22: 13
                  +2
                  Quote: venaya
                  And who is Venia? More details pzhst.

                  Yes you kind of. Oh, sorry, I forgot that you somehow called yourself Finnish letters, but I can’t read them. Vyacheslav, huh? hi
                  1. venaya
                    venaya 17 January 2018 22: 27
                    +2
                    Indeed, there is a proper name and there is a name for the state or even the name of a people, by the way quite ancient, they say that for more than 3 thousand years. I don’t remember something so that I personally ever distorted the name (ancient) of a people or country. Maybe forgot? Here, on the site, many people sin this, but the vast majority of teachers of history with obvious deviations in the psyche, what to do, lie such an object, and not everyone can stand it without a lie, normal ones often just leave, and this should be taken into account. I think that’s why such misunderstandings arise, because psychoses are also an infectious disease, and prof. doctors, too, can’t stand it. So I’m really using a proper name or “nick” there in these cases more correctly.
        2. Sergey Sadchikov
          Sergey Sadchikov 17 January 2018 18: 14
          +5
          Dear come on, you repeat this hackneyed heresy about the murder of Ivan the Terrible, your son. If you believe all the Jesuits' writings about Russia, then cognitive dissonance can come. As in the case of the uprising in Novgorod, when, according to their descriptions, Grozny killed 700 people, although in Novgorod In total, 000 thousand lived !!!! What a villain he was killing. then he revived, then again he killed, and so on 40 times with each.
        3. Cherkashin Ivan
          Cherkashin Ivan 18 January 2018 09: 12
          0
          [quote = Naputeon Bonaput] If L.I. Brezhnev had hurricane in the Caucasus before, yes.
          Where is Ivan the Terrible hurricane? In the center of his kingdom (many events of the Time of Troubles took place there)?
          Reforms, strengthening and expansion of the state. Yes, it was strengthening, its "atrocities" that contributed to the centralization of the state. It was not his fault in the Time of Troubles, there were so many factors that it was difficult to foresee.
          1. Naputeon bonaput
            Naputeon bonaput 18 January 2018 12: 36
            0
            Deny oprichnina and even the word itself pulls on reform?
            1. Cherkashin Ivan
              Cherkashin Ivan 18 January 2018 13: 15
              0
              Could you express your thoughts a little more clearly? Military, provincial, judicial, church, etc. reform. Is this not enough?
              And the guardsmen fulfilled their role. The king at the beginning of his reign was the first among equals, and in the end he became a real sovereign. This is the centralization of the state. What the freemen of the nobility leads to can be seen from the Commonwealth. Read the story, it is not enough to look at the picture of Repin and consider yourself in the right to judge a great statesman.
              1. Naputeon bonaput
                Naputeon bonaput 18 January 2018 14: 30
                0
                Listen, any government is implementing reforms. Even treacherous, even occult. There, False Dmitriy also showed some activity. But you and I understand that he was just a protege of the Lithuanian magnates.
                Tsar Ivan had the abilities and inclinations of a good leader (we will call it that), but everything crossed out possession
                abusive power and intemperance - alcohol, debauchery (seven official wives), developing paranoia of imaginary conspiracies and natural cruelty.
                1. Cherkashin Ivan
                  Cherkashin Ivan 18 January 2018 15: 27
                  0
                  This is not even funny. It is very nice to see that you put yourself so high that you can appreciate the inclinations of Grozny through the ages. I am not a man as great as you. I have to judge by historical sources and by the results of his activities.
                  1. Naputeon bonaput
                    Naputeon bonaput 18 January 2018 15: 48
                    0
                    In what year did the Crimean Moscow burn down?
                    1. Cherkashin Ivan
                      Cherkashin Ivan 18 January 2018 16: 07
                      0
                      Well, you went straight from the trump card) This argument is of course very difficult to beat) In which year did they take Kazan, and Astrakhan, and finally subjugate Novgorod? Ah, also Siberia. Who say created a streltsy army? And who pressed the boyars to the nail and did not let them slide to the Polish mess? Well, yes, of course wives are more important, why am I telling you all sorts of nonsense. Have you taught history at the Cosmopolitan?)
                      1. Naputeon bonaput
                        Naputeon bonaput 18 January 2018 16: 22
                        0
                        You mentioned military reform. I believe that the burnt capital clearly indicates its extensive degradation. If, of course, this reform was carried out at all. The only reform of Grozny is the destruction of a large layer of the intellectual elite, figuratively speaking.
                        And so they slipped to the mess, despite all the emergency measures taken to prevent the mess.
      2. Yura Yakovlev
        Yura Yakovlev 17 January 2018 16: 05
        +1
        After the eruption of the Wainaputin volcano in South America in February 1600 in 1601, torrential rains lasted ten weeks. In fact, the Russian lands were left without a crop, which caused hunger among the population. Starving peasant families died out en masse. Young and strong men were looking for another way to soak themselves - they got into robber gangs, robbing on highways.
      3. Weyland
        Weyland 18 January 2018 22: 48
        +1
        Quote: Cherkashin Ivan
        beginning of the Time of Troubles - 1598

        The beginning of the Time of Troubles - already 1605! The bloodthirsty tyrant Ivan the Terrible is to blame, definitely - why did he accumulate resources for only 20 years ?! wassat
    3. Rastas
      Rastas 17 January 2018 20: 08
      0
      Not certainly in that way. Partly Ivan the Terrible is guilty of Troubles. But the important reason for the Time of Troubles was the abolition of St. George’s Day by Boris Godunov and the introduction of school hours - the real ruler of Russia under Tsar Fedor. As a result, the peasantry lost the right to transition and saw Tsar Boris as an enslaver and willingly supported the impostor. Plus, the small nobility and the Cossacks of the southern lands, carrying out heavy service and developing territories, were dissatisfied with high taxes and also supported False Dmitry. This was supplemented by the betrayal of the boyars who dreamed of throwing Godunov.
  9. smaug78
    smaug78 17 January 2018 11: 35
    +4
    It is strange that the Anglo-Saxons and Slavic Arians are not mentioned)))
  10. Cherkashin Ivan
    Cherkashin Ivan 17 January 2018 12: 25
    +4
    I have a question for the site moderators. If you miss such “historians”, can you at least make a note that this is an article by Mr. Samsonov? Knowing the author of the article, I just would not have discovered it and saved a lot of nerve cells, I think I'm not the only one.
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  13. Rastas
    Rastas 17 January 2018 19: 49
    +1
    The real reason for the war was to protect the commercial interests of the Russian merchants, who sought to conduct duty-free trade with Europe. But this was prevented by Livonia, who took duties. They tried to come to an amicable agreement, but Livonia was incited by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Sweden, which themselves claimed these territories (throughout the 17th century they waged wars with each other for these lands until they almost completely came under Swedish rule). That’s the whole story. Without any struggle there of civilizations and other turbidity. Everything is very prosaic.
    1. Spnsr
      Spnsr 17 January 2018 22: 21
      0
      Quote: Rastas
      The real reason for the war was to protect the commercial interests of the Russian merchants, who sought to conduct duty-free trade with Europe. But this was prevented by Livonia, who took duties. They tried to come to an amicable agreement, but Livonia was incited by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Sweden, which themselves claimed these territories (throughout the 17th century they waged wars with each other for these lands until they almost completely came under Swedish rule). That’s the whole story. Without any struggle there of civilizations and other turbidity. Everything is very prosaic.

      Now it’s called to bring democracy, then the union of the Russian land could be called, or else it could serve as an excuse for changing the language, such as May you don’t understand yours, and in general I’m Herrusky!
  14. nnz226
    nnz226 17 January 2018 23: 46
    0
    Judging by the map in the article, the sprats were then baboons galloping along branches or sitting in pits closed by branches. When Russia was already a great power, which Europe was then afraid of, and not a geyrop, as it is now ...
  15. Torins
    Torins 18 January 2018 02: 12
    0
    Quote: Naputeon Bonaput
    Ivan the Terrible was a mentally unstable person

    This is found only in the opuses of residents written already in the West, who, in fact, worked to blacken Russia. Information on the mental ill health of Ivan Vasilievich is not found anywhere else. It’s about how to completely trust Rodchenkov’s testimony about doping.
    1. Naputeon bonaput
      Naputeon bonaput 18 January 2018 14: 34
      0
      For what reason did the Polish-Lithuanian nobility reject the claims of Tsar Ivan on an empty throne? And his claims were very, very significant.
      1. Cherkashin Ivan
        Cherkashin Ivan 18 January 2018 15: 26
        0
        Do you know how the Commonwealth was arranged? What were the liberties of the gentry? 15% of the population belonged to the nobility and had very great freedom (which killed the state). Here the difference was not in the identities of the rulers, but in the difference of systems.
        1. Naputeon bonaput
          Naputeon bonaput 18 January 2018 16: 00
          0
          Civil war finished off Poland. Plus the actions of neighboring powers. And Tsar Ivan involuntarily contributed to the strengthening of Poles, Swedes, Turks
          1. Cherkashin Ivan
            Cherkashin Ivan 18 January 2018 16: 11
            0
            Well, what am I wrong about then? Yes contributed. But an alternative to this would be the inclusion of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, and, consequently, the extension of liberties to Moscow nobles. This is not today's China, “one country two systems” would not have worked. And then we would have been pulled away, not RP.
            1. Naputeon bonaput
              Naputeon bonaput 18 January 2018 16: 25
              0
              Tell me, are you afraid of liberties?
              1. Weyland
                Weyland 18 January 2018 22: 51
                +3
                Quote: Naputeon Bonaput
                Are you afraid of liberties?

                Such as the nobility in the Commonwealth - definitely! For example, what is the inalienable right of a pan if his legs freeze on his way, rip open his stomach to a serf, and put his feet in there to warm himself!

                My ancestors, by the way, came from a crown gentry, not entirely impoverished (50 hectares of land; other gentry had only 1,5 hectares) - but not so rich as to have serfs. And I am glad of this - it would be unpleasant to realize that my ancestors did this to their servants as well.
                1. Naputeon bonaput
                  Naputeon bonaput 19 January 2018 04: 12
                  0
                  If the nobleman Freddy Krueger, then yes.
                  1. Cherkashin Ivan
                    Cherkashin Ivan 19 January 2018 08: 00
                    +1
                    A perfectly normal argument in a dispute. If you don’t know the history of RP and ON and how these liberties came out for them, you would listen to a comrade, he says the right thing.
                  2. Weyland
                    Weyland 19 January 2018 20: 39
                    +2
                    There were enough of them! Nobody warmed the legs in the guts in real life (although in the law such a rule was specially driven!) - but many loved to "put the serf on top of themselves" (that is, put on a stake)!
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  18. Cherkashin Ivan
    Cherkashin Ivan 19 January 2018 07: 58
    0
    Naputeon Bonaput,
    I don’t see any reason to argue with you at the “myself” level, I’m telling you about the facts, and you poke me in the face with your value judgments. If you are not happy with the facts, read fantasy.
    1. Naputeon bonaput
      Naputeon bonaput 19 January 2018 08: 11
      0
      Thank you) I read fantasy with pleasure. Samsonov is one of my favorite authors. Almost like Tolkien.
  19. 1970mk
    1970mk 25 May 2018 22: 33
    0
    The author is funny))) "the black myth of the" bloody tyrant "Ivan the Terrible" ... The author, and the author ... the Pskov Chronicle (OUR BIRTHDAY) which suggests that Vanechka did the peacekeeper in the Novgorod land with the guardsmen? According to the records and repentances of Vanya himself, about 2000 noble and respected townspeople, local boyars, merchants were simply killed in a brutal way .... who thought ordinary people? The result - the only republic in the territory of present-day Russia ceased to exist - turning into a backwater and depopulated. Is the Pskov Chronicle familiar to the author? The ghoul was Vanechka, and the consequences of his actions were unrest in Russia after his death ...