Military Review

Weapons and armor of the Mongol warriors (part two)

369
"Come out, look at the point of my spear,
Try to put aside the excuse [of my horse]!

If you are a mountain, you will collapse from the foot,
And if you are a stone, do not stay in place.
Where could you see people of war
[You] who did not hear [even] the barking foxes. "
(Fazlullah Rashid-ad-Din. Jami-at-Tavarih. Baku: “Nagy Yevi”, 2011. C.133)


In the melee, the Mongol warriors used a whole arsenal: spears, light darts, palm trees, axes, maces. Darts had small petiolate and vtulchatye iron tips with a long spike for mounting in the shaft. But the dart in the presence of beautiful bows was auxiliary weapons. But the spears differed a great variety. Plano Carpini reported that the Mongols "on the neck of the iron spears have a hook, which, if they can, pull the man off the saddle." The tips themselves had a long and narrow diamond-shaped feather or an elongated triangle. But the spears, with a wide feather, for fighting with riders who do not have armor, were rarely used. In this regard, the so-called palm tree, which had the appearance of a massive knife, on a long spear shaft was more widely used. It was a piercing weapon, borrowed, it is believed, from forest hunters.

Weapons and armor of the Mongol warriors (part two)

Miniature from the "Collection of Chronicles" by Rashid al-Din. XIV century. Genghis Khan, surrounded by their nukers. (National Library of France, Paris).

Plano Carpini is an obligatory weapon of the Mongol warrior who calls the ax, which the Mongols had several types. According to M.V. Gorelika, there were even axes meant for throwing. But there is no written evidence of their use, although it is known about throwing Francis, the ax of the Frankish warriors.


The seventh drawing of the illustrated Myoko Surai Ecotoba scroll on the Mongol invasion of Japan. Pictured is Takezaki Samurai Cienade fighting the Mongols and the Battle of Bunji in 1274.

In the melee used weakly curved sabers. Archaeologists do not find them too often, but they do. Find and crosshairs from them. In particular, many such crosshairs were discovered in the area of ​​the Zolotarev settlement near Penza. Handles were located to the blade at a slight angle. Moreover, bladed weapons, as the most expensive, enjoyed the most notable warriors. Less prominent used maces, and often the simplest with a warhead, carved from butt of a tree, which is confirmed in visual sources. On the handle there was a fastener for a belt loop through which a hand was threaded. Later, in order to increase the efficiency of the mace, its smooth impact part was supplemented with faces and ribs-blades. The Russian warriors called the multi-blade mace the “Shestoper” (six feathers), or “pernach” (if there are more than six feathers). Judging by the miniatures, the Mongols and straight swords were not shunned, most likely exported as trophies from China. In any case, the Mongols would hardly have conquered China and would have missed the opportunity to use the rich trophies taken there, including swords and spears.


Another illustration from the Myoko Surai Ecotoba rollout. It is obvious that not all the Mongol warriors depicted here have metal armor. In this picture there are only three of them.

As for protective weapons, here it is necessary to note the following interesting fact. Thus, among the finds in the south-eastern part of the country are known spheroconic helmets with a high spire and iron masks, with strange hook-nosed faces and a characteristic tear-shaped eye slit, broad eyebrows stray and mustaches bent upwards. Some researchers believed that they had a clearly fake character, and were not used in battle, others that they belonged to the soldiers of Ancient Russia. A.I. Solovyov notes that M.V. Gorelik still managed to prove that these helmets with goggles are related to the defensive armament of the Mongols. The anthropological type depicted on the mask reflects “the ancient Altai ideal of the husband-hero”, which “lasted in Asia, despite the change of nations, languages ​​and races, from the 5th century BC. BC er XV century n er. "

His opinion is interesting that in battle these masks made a heavy impression on the enemy. And not only by its “dead” metal face with bright lively eyes, but also by its alien anthropological type, which usually always looks threatening. For example, ancient writers constantly emphasized the repulsive impression that the Huns made on the Romans with their Mongoloid appearance. Correspondingly, the European type was also unpleasant to the indigenous inhabitants of Northern Asia, who belonged to the Mongoloid race. No wonder they called the Europeans people with bird eyes and noses, and the Japanese and did long-nosed barbarians. But it is clear that these helmets belonged to the nobility in order to stand out among their subordinates and have the appearance of impassive and stern.


Plate armor made of leather plates glued together, details of which were discovered at the site of the battle with the Mongols in Japan. (Historical Museum in Genko, Japan)

The helmets of the rest of the Mongolian troops are known mainly from the images. They were assembled from several (from two to eight) forged sectors, and the connecting seams of these plates on the dome were also closed with narrow plates on which the edges were cut. The carved scalloped edge of a metal plate that held the base of the crown near the helmet served as decoration. If these patch plates were made of blued metal, then the dome was usually polished, which added elegance to the product. Barmitsy were, most likely, leather. “The helmet is iron or copper from above,” says Plano Karpini, “and what covers the neck and throat all around is made of leather. And all these pieces of leather are made in the manner indicated above, ”- they were interconnected by straps of leather. Few of the surviving helmets have holes on the bottom edge. This means that the barmitsa they had a chain mail, and had two pieces, one of which was hung from the back of the helmet, and the other - in front. At the same time, at the base of the crown, there were semicircular cuts for the eyes. Judging by the images in the manuscripts, there were also felt barmies with headphones, leather-reinforced and metal plaques.


Korean helmet XV - XVII centuries. Weight 1882.4 (Metropolitan Museum, New York)


Mongolian helmet with headphones from the Mongol Invasion Museum in Genko, Japan. Weight 2 kg.


Mongolian helmet of a similar type. (Historical Museum in Genko, Japan)

As for protective weapons, the Mongols also received the broadest - we emphasize this word - “the broadest”, distribution. Some historians even believed that all Mongol warriors wore heavy weapons, for they had leather and metal armor. Turning to the Japanese miniatures, from manuscripts telling about the attempts of the Mongol invasion of Japan, we, however, will see that not all the soldiers wore armor. Nevertheless, finds at the scene of the fighting show that the Mongols had protective equipment. According to the manufacturing technology, they were divided into several types. First of all, it is lamellar shells made of bone and metal plates, brigandine, as well as laminar armor and armor from large plates. The details of the lamellar shells practically did not differ from those used by the warriors of Southern Siberia and Central Asia at the same time. Krupnoplastinchatye armor represented the shells of metal rectangles or squares of thickness one millimeter, which were first riveted in horizontal rows to the belts, and then these strips were collected into a single armor. The result was a tier of plates arranged in such a way that they partially entered a row behind the row. Sometimes these armor plates riveted on a fabric or leather base.

In brigandine, as in the West, the inner surface of the armor was hit with metal, so that only the heads of the rivets remained on the surface. Laminar patches were made of wide leather bands glued together in several layers and stitched with threads. But in the 15th century, technology changed: the bands were no longer tied to each other, but forged from iron and riveted to the belts on the wrong side. Original combined shells with sequential alternation of laminar and lamellar sets were also used.


Tibetan armor with sequential alternation of laminar and lamellar sets. (Royal Arsenal, Leeds, England)

Leather shells were varnished and painted with colors in green, pink, red and orange, and decorated with decorative embroidery. The shells, entirely made of metal, were either blackened or, on the contrary, polished so that “a person can see his face in them”. And although such polishing clearly reduced their service life, aesthetics in this case took precedence over all expediency. The plates were repeatedly forged "cold", which, due to the surface work hardening, increased their strength.


Original Mongolian bone plate armor. (Historical Museum in Genko, Japan)

Sometimes the Mongolian shells resembled long caftans with a large slit to the very back of the back and blades-shoulders covering the arms to the elbows. Such armor, made of rigid materials, the Mongolian warriors called "huyag" and "weight loss huyag", which can be translated as "shell, stitched with straps."


Reconstruction of the Mongolian military costume of the invasion of Japan. (Historical Museum in Genko, Japan)

According to the description of Plano Carpini, the Mongolian armor of the thirteenth century consisted of four parts: a breastplate, a backrest that connected to the breastplate with fasteners on the sides. Both parts were attached to each other with the help of iron arcs, which bend around the body like straps. Hands from the shoulder to the hand were protected by long shoulder pads attached to the same arcs, and the legs were covered with rectangular legguards attached to the breastplate.

Many of the armor resembled a robe, and were also long-haired, right up to the ankles (although there were also short, resembling a jacket with short sleeves), and others had long shoulders and shoulders. But usually the shoulders of a rectangular shape, or curly, which made them look like a leaf of a tree, reached only elbows. Since the XIV century, their design has changed. Now the shoulders began to look like narrow metal strips, ledges riveted in a horizontal position on several belts arranged vertically. And they were tied to the convex metal plates that protected the shoulders of a warrior.


At the site of the landing of the Mongols in Japan, such iron stirrups were also found. (Historical Museum in Genko, Japan)


And that’s how the Mongolian horses of that era could look like. (Zoo in Prague)

Used by the Mongols and "soft" armor, which again can be clearly seen in the miniatures dedicated to the Mongol invasion of Japan. They were called “Khatangu Degel”, which meant “hard, strong robe”. Most likely, it was these dense "lashes" that were the most popular military clothing. In the XIII century, large metal plates were sewn to them from the inside, and from the outside, metal overlays were fastened on the chest and back (they are also called seeds in the Russian tradition of arms), also discovered by archaeologists during excavations. In the XIV century, mail sets, which had not been distributed among the Mongols before, began to enter the sets of defensive armaments.


A shield of twigs braided with threads, armed with a Timurid rider. But the Mongols used the same shields. (Royal Arsenal, Leeds, England)

“They have a shield,” says Plano Karpini, “made of willow or other rods, but we do not think that they would wear them except in the camp for the protection of the emperor and princes, and even then only at night.” Round shields of this type strongly spring, and thus easily quench the blows inflicted by the bladed weapon, but the arrows with flat tips enter well between the rods, because of which they were made, as a rule, two and three-layered, and in the center they placed a traditional metal umbon. Also used wood and multi-layered skin.


Tibetan sword XVIII - XIX centuries. Length 99,1, see Total Weight: 1173,7 (Metropolitan Museum, New York)

The Mongolian horse armor, which appeared by them, by the way, earlier than similar armor, began to be used by Europeans, is described in detail in the work of Plano Carpini. Judging by it, they were of the laminar type and looked like a few large parts that covered the war horse from both sides "from tail to head and tied at the saddle ... behind the saddle on the back and ... at the neck." The breast of the horse was covered by a breastplate; another piece covered the croup. “In this piece they make a hole through which they expose the tail,” the papal legate noted. And then he calls the length of such a shell: "All parts extend to the knees or to the ties of the legs." The horse's neck was also protected by a carapace plate, and the muzzle was protected by an iron mask. There is every reason to believe that under this armor there could be felt quilted blanket so that metal or bone plates would not rub the horse's skin, and to absorb sweat.

Sources:
1. Giovanni del Plano Carpini. History of the Mongols. Guillaume de Rubruck. Journey to the Eastern Countries / Translation by A. I. Malein. - M.: State Publishing House of Geographical Literature, 1957.
2. 2.Kozin S. A. The most intimate legend of the Mongols. - M .: Partnership of scientific publications KMK, 2002.
3. Men-da Bay-lu ("A complete description of the Mongol-Tatars") / Trans. N. Ts. Munkueva. - M .: Science, 1975.
4. Letter from brother Julian about the Mongol war // Historical archive. - 1940. - T. 3. - S. 83 — 90.
5. Rashid ad-Din. Collection of chronicles / Trans. from Persian OI Smirnova, edited by prof. A. A. Semenov. - M., L .: Publishing House of the Academy of Sciences of the USSR, 1952. - T. 1, Vol. 2.


To be continued ...
Author:
369 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. Net
    Net 18 January 2018 06: 09
    13
    Cool science, with self-made pictures. It is only unclear what the author writes about: about the Japanese, now about the Mongols, then about the Tibetans. That he has weapons from the capture of the "Mongols" of China, then leads the "Tibetan" sword of the 19th century, Korean helmets. (By this time, Tibet was captured by the Chinese, a microscopic area remained near Potala).
    Mongolian horse at 1 meter high all these weapons will take away?
    Did the author want to say something?
    1. kalibr
      18 January 2018 07: 28
      15
      The fact that the Lenin testament is for you to LEARN, LEARN, AND LEARN is more relevant than ever! First study, then think, and only then write!
      1. long in stock.
        long in stock. 18 January 2018 17: 35
        +5
        not ... first to learn then to think and then .. again to study ... and only then write ...
        1. co-creator
          co-creator 19 January 2018 04: 08
          +6
          Well, you would have proved the opposite and tried on a Mongolian horse to take all this stuff away with it in winter in our latitudes and on the pasture. I wonder how historians collect various throwing machines of the alleged Roman Empire, legions and conduct thousands of reconstructions to understand how people then moved and fought. Here is a huge empire and no one has yet reconstructed the Mongol army. I did not collect a couple of thousand horses and did not drive them in the winter in Russia to my mother in the winter and on pasture. Come on in Russia, even in Mongolia itself. Wonders.
          1. long in stock.
            long in stock. 19 January 2018 07: 43
            +2
            no problem. get to finance this venture?
            1. co-creator
              co-creator 19 January 2018 11: 53
              +2
              Why should I do this?
              1. tlauicol
                tlauicol 19 January 2018 13: 29
                0
                for the purity of the experiment. you are a disinterested person
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator 19 January 2018 13: 36
                  +2
                  That is, my money is different from yours for example?
                  1. tlauicol
                    tlauicol 19 January 2018 13: 53
                    0
                    for the purity of the experiment. you will not be biased (hopefully)
                    1. co-creator
                      co-creator 19 January 2018 16: 34
                      +2
                      I agree if you justify me than my money is impartiality for example yours?
              2. long in stock.
                long in stock. 19 January 2018 17: 38
                +1
                because you offer it. why then did you shake the air?
                1. tlauicol
                  tlauicol 19 January 2018 18: 02
                  +1
                  Did you want to refute something?
                  Yes, and your money is greener
                2. co-creator
                  co-creator 20 January 2018 07: 51
                  +3
                  I suggest that historians do this once and for all to close this question. But they do not and will not do so since their whole house of cards, which they have been collecting for several centuries, will collapse.
                  1. tlauicol
                    tlauicol 20 January 2018 09: 20
                    0
                    cognitive dissonance then you
                    1. co-creator
                      co-creator 20 January 2018 09: 53
                      +2
                      Explain your words. Do you know why they are doing an investigative experiment for example?
                      1. tlauicol
                        tlauicol 20 January 2018 10: 04
                        0
                        Well, historians do not bomb a fart about this.
                        I offer you a cheaper way to destroy a house of cards: take a pen and rewrite all the objectionable annals with your handwriting on plain paper — portray us a conspiracy theory
              3. Hantengri
                Hantengri 19 January 2018 18: 17
                +1
                Quotation: blooded man
                Why should I do this?

                Quotation: blooded man
                Here is a huge empire and no one has yet reconstructed the Mongol army. I did not collect a couple of thousand horses and did not drive them in the winter in Russia to my mother in the winter and on pasture. Come on in Russia, even in Mongolia itself.

                "- My wanted - my paid!
                - Your wanted - your paid! "(C)
                Something like that.
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator 20 January 2018 07: 54
                  +2
                  If so, then sit quietly and listen to what smart people say to you.
                  1. Tula gingerbread
                    Tula gingerbread 26 January 2018 14: 52
                    +1
                    How did you decide that you are smart?
                    1. co-creator
                      co-creator 26 January 2018 18: 39
                      0
                      I kind of wrote PEOPLE. Why should I consider myself stupid?) The question you have is go = from = sky.
          2. Luga
            Luga 19 January 2018 09: 57
            +7
            Quotation: blooded man
            I did not collect a couple of thousand horses and did not drive them in the winter in Russia to my mother in the winter and on pasture.

            Tiring already with your mantra about how to feed horses in winter.
            When the jute began in the steppe and the horses began to swell from hunger, the steppes gathered in a handful and went into a raid on Russia in order to somehow feed the horses, otherwise they could die during the jute. And in Russia in the snow and forests stood villages and villages. And around the villages and villages in the same snow stood haystacks prepared for livestock feeding. And in the barns in these villages and villages, a certain amount of oats, millet, wheat, rye and other cereals was bombarded. So in winter the steppe inhabitants also went to feed the horses in winter, and to feed themselves.
            They did not have problems with fodder and food in raids, NOT BE. Count how many stocks were in each Russian village at the beginning of winter, taking into account the fact that it was necessary to feed all family members, a horse, a cow, sheep, chickens, a dog and a cat. And then the horse is not alone and the cow. Have you counted? Understood why the raids were made in the winter?
            That’s why I don’t like ignorant and stupid people, you don’t believe it, for ignorance and stupidity.
            Guys, enough to show off their originality, skepticism and others, supposedly, "virtues." It is time to understand what you need to think before you speak and, moreover, write. And before you start thinking, you need to collect information for thought. But then you will be ashamed in front of the children and grandchildren if someone shows them what you are sculpting here right now.
            1. co-creator
              co-creator 19 January 2018 12: 13
              +4
              Quote: Luga
              Tiring already with your mantra about how to feed horses in winter.

              Well, you also bore us, and people somehow endure.
              Quote: Luga
              When the jute began in the steppe and the horses began to swell from hunger, the steppe people gathered in a handful and went into a raid on Russia in order to somehow feed the horses, otherwise they could die during the jute

              and that’s what it means, so the steppe men took the horses from the kondachka and galloped to feed horses to another state) Mdyayaya ..
              Quote: Luga
              And in Russia in the snow and forests stood villages and villages. And around the villages and villages in the same snow stood haystacks prepared for livestock feeding. And in the barns in these villages and villages, a certain amount of oats, millet, wheat, rye and other cereals was bombarded.

              So the steppes knew exactly where these barns were? And you do not tell me what was the population density of Russia per sq. Km at that time? And of course, the main question is why the peasants and princes did not burn these same stacks and barns, so that the strangers' horses would no longer come to feed their horses? Well, the first time they didn’t, they didn’t guess, and then what was stopping them?
              Quote: Luga
              So in winter the steppe inhabitants also went to feed the horses in winter, and to feed themselves.

              This is the most creative explanation of what cannot be) Mongols do not fight on horses in the winter and do not even graze cattle on them, but they first learned from the Cossacks in the 17th century or learned earlier, but for some reason this didn’t did.
              Quote: Luga
              They did not have problems with fodder and food in raids, NOT BE.

              Of course it wasn’t, like in a fairy tale. It is a pity that our ancestors, judging by your logic, were very stupid people and did not guess the supplies to burn everything. You look, the Mongols would have all rested and all victory.
              Quote: Luga
              Calculate how many stocks were in each Russian village at the beginning of winter, taking into account the fact that it was necessary to feed all family members, a horse, a cow, sheep, chickens, a dog and a cat. And then the horse is not alone and the cow. Have you counted? Understood why the raids were made in the winter?

              Much less than what was required to feed the Mongol army per day. Although what I mean. What is the number of Batu troops, for example, according to your estimates.

              Quote: Luga
              That’s why I don’t like ignorant and stupid people, you don’t believe it, for ignorance and stupidity.

              Go to the library, read about the wars of the 15-19 centuries and the state. Stupidity, of course, will be difficult for you to overcome, but ignorance is within its power.
              Quote: Luga
              Guys, enough to show off their originality, skepticism and others, supposedly, "virtues."

              I ask specific questions and ask for specific answers. All your nonsense that they go to feed horses on a hike, you can leave with you or give similar examples in history. And I can tell you what a trip is, how preparation is going on for it, how much time it takes, etc. I can use the example of the modern army of the 20-21 century, I can use the example of other centuries.
              Quote: Luga
              And before you start thinking, you need to collect information for thought. Then you will be ashamed in front of your children and grandchildren if someone shows them what you are sculpting here right now

              I will be ashamed if I tell them tales of a white bull-calf.
              1. Luga
                Luga 19 January 2018 14: 00
                +4
                Quotation: blooded man
                and that’s what it means, so the steppe men took the horses from the kondachka and galloped to feed horses to another state) Mdyayaya ..

                "Mindless" is yes, an argument.
                I did not say that ALL raids were organized in this way. The large campaigns, the scale of the invasion of 1238, required, of course, serious preparation. But small raids on the border areas happened that way. They raided, took away food, grabbed people and rode off. What do you think?
                Quotation: blooded man
                So the steppes knew exactly where these barns were?

                It is difficult not to find a barn with grain in the farm yard or a haystack in a field that you can see for a couple of kilometers. For researchers like you, of course. The Mongols, apparently, were smarter.
                Quotation: blooded man
                so that the strangers' horses would no longer come to feed their horses

                I will keep this pearl for memory.
                Quotation: blooded man
                And of course, the main question is why the peasants and princes did not burn these same stacks and barns

                Right. In the summer with hard work he swept the hay into stacks, in the fall, the barn fell asleep and let's burn. And that, and warm and fun. I am sure that you, as a quick-witted person, unlike the Russian peasants, would have done so. laughing Received a call to your mobile, they say the Tatars are coming, tomorrow or the day after tomorrow they will be with you and let's burn-destroy. And if without mobile? Then you would have known about the arrival of the Tatars in two or three hours - only the time to collect the most valuable things, to plant a family in a sled and to give a tear, in the hope that they would not catch up. Well, warn the neighbors, as you just warned. And then return to the ashes, collect what you can collect, rebuild the house again. By the way, you probably didn’t know, but if the Tatars, arriving in the village, didn’t find any food or fodder in it, they burned the village and started looking for residents. And if everything was in place, often they just took what was needed, but they did not burn the village and did not look for people. Otherwise, whom to rob in a year or two?
                Think about it. repeat
                Quotation: blooded man
                The Mongols do not fight on horseback in the winter and do not even graze cattle on them, but they first learned from the Cossacks in the 17 century that they could be fed or learned earlier, but for some reason did not.

                Magical Mongolian horses hibernated in the winter like bears. They didn’t drink or eat. Courageous Mongols followed their herds (yes!) And flocks on foot along the steppe. Ah, yes, the herds also hibernated, of course, so only behind the flocks. wassat Otherwise, your thesis (it is not clear what is based on) cannot be understood.
                Quotation: blooded man
                You look, the Mongols would have all rested and all victory.

                And why eat something yourself? The tactics of “scorched earth” were not popular in the 20th century either (recall the Great Patriotic War), but you want to implement it in the XIII – XIV ... A peasant can be burned his good only under the threat of immediate reprisal. Such an order could only be carried out by combatants. In general, I wonder how you imagine it.
                Quotation: blooded man
                Much less than what was required to feed the Mongol army per day.

                On this occasion, I wrote recently. Check out my comment for January 15 09: 13.
                Quotation: blooded man
                What is the number of Batu troops, for example, according to your estimates.

                Also wrote earlier, there is no desire to repeat. My comment for January 12 from 17: 21
                Quotation: blooded man
                Go to the library, read about the wars of the 15-19 centuries and the state. Stupidity, of course, will be difficult for you to overcome, but ignorance is within its power.

                We are talking about the XIII century. And where does the XV - XIX? or do you think that for 200 - 600 years nothing has changed? And by the way, what should I subtract there? How did regular armies fight? I can then advise you to read a chemistry textbook. Also knowledge. Although they will not be related to this topic either.
                Quotation: blooded man
                I can use the example of the modern army of the 20-21 century, I can use the example of other centuries.

                A bold statement. I’m still ready to believe about our time if you tell me that you are working in the General Staff of the RF Armed Forces in a responsible position. I believe, although there, I think, smart people work after all. But anything happens, so okay, I believe. But about the XIII century, I would be silent if you were in my place, because you can be disgraced great. However, if you wish, who am I to prevent you from showing ignorance and stupidity? Come on tell me
                Quotation: blooded man
                what is a campaign, how is preparation going for it, how much time does it take, etc.

                in relation to the XIII century.
                Quotation: blooded man
                I will be ashamed if I tell them tales of a white bull-calf.

                You will tell them that in the XIII century. Russian cities were scorched and carved by Russian people. The Russians themselves threw back their country in the development of a hundred years ago, destroying their own masters, architects, scientists, having killed something about 30% of the population ... Your descendant will ask: "Or maybe someone else came and all this committed? " And you are proud of him: "No, granddaughters, it's us ourselves ..."
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator 20 January 2018 09: 00
                  +3
                  Quote: Luga
                  "Mindless" is yes, an argument.

                  And here there are no other words. Even ordinary criminals when they are robbing an apartment are prepared in advance. There are really different nariks, but they catch it almost immediately.
                  Quote: Luga
                  Big campaigns, the scale of the invasion of 1238, required, of course, serious preparation.

                  Was the feed prepared for the horses? In the annals they write that no.
                  Quote: Luga
                  But small raids on the border areas happened that way. They raided, took away food, grabbed people and rode off. What do you think?

                  WINTER SMALL RACKS? Well, if only very close to 30-40 km. But who will live in the 30-40 km of nomads? This is true slavery.
                  Quote: Luga
                  It is difficult not to find a barn with grain in the farm yard or a haystack in a field that you can see for a couple of kilometers. For researchers like you, of course. The Mongols, apparently, were smarter.

                  Well, in an unfamiliar area, and even in winter it’s even difficult to find a road, and not just a barn. Well, let's say they themselves conducted Rusichi, this is a common situation.

                  Quote: Luga
                  Correctly. In the summer with hard work he swept the hay into stacks, in the fall, the barn fell asleep and let's burn. And that, and warm and fun. I am sure that you, as a quick-witted person, unlike the Russian peasants, would have acted

                  Well, we do not live in Europe, and every time our smart people did it. I would do just that. No food, no nomad for next year.

                  Quote: Luga
                  And if without mobile? Then you would have known about the arrival of the Tatars in two or three hours - only the time to put together the most valuable things, to plant a family in a sled and to give a tear, in the hope that they would not catch up.

                  Are you trolling yourself? The princes very quickly collected all their property in a few days and left with their squad. Those who decided to resist were just as quickly preparing for defense. Today wa and mobile will not help.

                  Quote: Luga
                  By the way, you probably did not know, but if the Tatars, arriving in the village, did not find any food and fodder in it, they burned the village and began to search for residents. And if everything was in place, often they just took what was needed, but they did not burn the village and did not look for people. Otherwise, whom to rob in a year or two?

                  No, I didn’t know this, because this is nonsense. If we talk about Crimean Tatars, then for them the main prey is people and their food was not interested. If it’s just about the gangs of nomads, then this is generally another matter. The Mongols, on the other hand, devastated everything in their path, judging by the chronicles and couldn’t be otherwise, since the army is too large and needs food. To restore housing when there is a lot of forest around is a week of work.
                  Quote: Luga
                  Magical Mongolian horses hibernated in the winter like bears. They didn’t drink or eat. Courageous Mongols followed their herds (yes!) And flocks on foot along the steppe. Ah, yes, the herds also hibernated, of course, so only behind the flocks.

                  The fact of the matter is that horses are the most ordinary. In winter, there is little food, but this horse is enough to not die in that its value. In winter, the Mongols stop roaming and break their nomads until spring. This is still happening in Mongolia.
                  Quote: Luga
                  And why eat something yourself? The tactics of "scorched earth" was not popular in the XNUMXth century either (recall the Great Patriotic War),

                  WHAT ARE THEY EATING AFTER MOGOLS? what they were able to drag into the forest.
                  In WWII, there were other criteria for "scorched earth". Then destroyed factories, warehouses with materiel. Infrastructure. Burning fields or even warehouses with products didn’t make much sense, since the enemy army would receive products quickly and quickly by rail.
                  Quote: Luga
                  The peasant can be forced to burn his good only under the threat of immediate reprisal. Such an order could only be carried out by combatants. In general, I wonder how you imagine it.

                  Yes, many ways. The priest arrived and had a conversation about the Busurman. Well, if you didn’t agree, it’s just threats, because the Mongols will leave and the prince will not go anywhere. And again, it’s just savvy, the WINTER ENEMY will rest if he doesn’t have provisions. That is why in winter only Mongols fought from nomads, miracles are shorter.

                  Quote: Luga
                  Also wrote earlier, there is no desire to repeat. My comment for January 12 from 17: 21

                  You didn’t write anything to me. It's ugly to do this, to say the least. The question is open, what is the size of the Batu army, for example. It would be desirable to have a source of course, well, your personal assessment will also go.
                  Quote: Luga
                  We are talking about the XIII century. And where does the XV - XIX?

                  We argue about the XII century, so you need to take later eras where there are more documents, etc.
                  Quote: Luga
                  or do you think that nothing has changed in 200-600 years?

                  in preparation for war and campaigns? Nothing has changed dramatically.
                  Quote: Luga
                  And by the way, what should I subtract there? How did regular armies fight? I can then advise you to read a chemistry textbook. Also knowledge

                  As princes, ampirators and others prepared for war, what they stocked up, what was the number of soldiers and servants, etc. To call the Mongol army irregular is a very bold statement, they even reached the Adriatic with simply conquering goals. Various Huns and others MOVEMENT were engaged, not campaigns.
                  Quote: Luga
                  A bold statement. I’m still ready to believe about our time if you tell me that you are working in the General Staff of the RF Armed Forces in a responsible position.

                  it's five))
                  Quote: Luga
                  Come on tell me

                  Name any major military conflict of the 17-20th century and I will begin.
                  Quote: Luga
                  in relation to the XIII century.

                  And what were the other people there?
                  Quote: Luga
                  You will tell them that in the XIII century. Russian cities were scorched and carved by Russian people.

                  Yes, exactly so, it is called feudalism. Why talk about how Russian princes killed siblings to lick the Mongols ass is good, but that they burned their brother’s cities is bad? I think you need to tell the truth. In reality, there is no confirmation of the mass burning of cities and the massacre of Russians.
                  Quote: Luga
                  The Russians themselves threw back their country in the development of a hundred years ago, destroying their own masters, architects, scientists, killing something about 30% of the population

                  These are tales from school history textbooks. Russia under the Mongols from feudolism grew into a powerful Moscow state and at the same time very rich about what Western merchants and various sigismundas wrote.
                  30% of the population istributed Peter the first, and not the mythical Mongols.


                  Quote: Luga
                  Your descendant will ask: "Or maybe someone else came and did all this?" And you are proud of him: "No, granddaughters, this is ourselves ...

                  No, I'll tell him SO. Granddaughter from 1917-1922 Russian people killed 12 million of the same Russian people for such and such reasons. Although you probably need to tell him what the damned invaders did?
          3. brn521
            brn521 19 January 2018 13: 49
            +1
            Quotation: blooded man
            I did not collect a couple of thousand horses and did not drive them in the winter in Russia to my mother in the winter and on pasture.

            Where do we get suitable horses? For example, the horses of the Great Plains Indians, according to descriptions, set endurance records. And this is on an herbal diet. But there was an individual approach to each horse - constant dressage and training at the limit of strength. And then the Indians took the best of their herds and went camping. In general, the consumption of man-hours is huge.
            Quotation: blooded man
            in winter

            And winters, again, in different periods were different.
            1. long in stock.
              long in stock. 19 January 2018 17: 41
              +1
              we’ll take from the Mongols ... we’ll throw a cry, we’ll recruit people across the country .. we will take the Fomenkovites with us, for the purity of the experiment. They will depict slaves ...
              1. co-creator
                co-creator 20 January 2018 09: 13
                +3
                Quote: Long in stock.
                we’ll take from the Mongols ... we’ll throw a cry, we’ll recruit people across the country.

                Exactly . You can rent, you can redeem.
                Quote: Long in stock.
                we will take Fomenkovists with us, for the purity of the experiment. Slaves will be depicted ..

                and this is necessary, it’s better to apologize to them on the spot than to write excuses on the Internet then.
                1. long in stock.
                  long in stock. 20 January 2018 16: 08
                  +1
                  I don’t see any reason to apologize .. only one thing is visible - you called for an experiment, and then immediately refuse to participate .. but what about the truth? Does it not interest you anymore?
                  1. co-creator
                    co-creator 20 January 2018 16: 39
                    +2
                    Quote: Long in stock.
                    until I see reasons to apologize ..

                    so therefore there is no experiment. Everything is very simple)
                    Quote: Long in stock.
                    only one thing is visible - you called for an experiment, and then immediately refuse to participate .. but what about the truth? Does it not interest you anymore?

                    They have been talking about this for many years. Why can I also see how you apologize to them.
                    1. long in stock.
                      long in stock. 20 January 2018 22: 04
                      0
                      in front of them?
            2. co-creator
              co-creator 20 January 2018 09: 11
              +3
              Quote: brn521
              Where do we get suitable horses?

              The horses of the Mongolian breed are a dime a dozen. You can take it in Mongolia. they live there as they did 1000 years ago.
              Quote: brn521
              set records by descriptions

              You know this is not an argument. People always needed horses. If there is an outstanding breed, then it will not disappear anywhere. For the Second World War, for example, they did not take heavyweights, but a Mongolian horse, and in fact it bore the brunt of the war.
              Cossacks fought not on Oryol trotters, but again on short, hardy horses.
              Quote: brn521
              And winters, again, in different periods were different.

              I agree . It is necessary to determine what winter was then. Although, for example, winters have little snow in Mongolia, they still don’t use horses.
              1. long in stock.
                long in stock. 20 January 2018 16: 10
                0
                they didn’t choose it ... they took what was. and if fraternal Mongolia could deliver them to us, just cheers ... how they took it and everything that came in handy .. you won’t believe it, but even the Sultan of Yemen donated 50 tons of coffee to the defense fund .. met this somewhere .. give and good ..
              2. brn521
                brn521 20 January 2018 18: 53
                0
                Quotation: blooded man
                The horses of the Mongolian breed are a dime a dozen.

                The question is not in the breed. The question is the preparation of the horse.
                Quotation: blooded man
                You know this is not an argument.

                This is still a historical period, after all. 19th century. There are specialists, books, monographs. If you study the limits to whom nomads who spent half their lives in military campaigns and half their lives in training, then these are the Indians of the Great Plains.
                Quotation: blooded man
                If there is an outstanding breed

                For about 200 years, Native American horses, eating grass in the summer, and interrupting with the shabby winter, turned into almost a pony. No strength, no speed, only endurance. It really looks like a Mongolian breed.
                Quotation: blooded man
                For the Second World War, for example, they did not take heavyweights, but a Mongolian horse, and in fact it bore the brunt of the war.

                Well, we take this very horse and hand it over to an authentic nomad who has worked on horses all his life, preparing them for military affairs. Moreover, only grass in the summer and shreds of hay in the winter are fed from the feed. And where to get such a nomad? The latter ended in the 19th century.
                Quotation: blooded man
                Cossacks fought not on Oryol trotters, but again on short, hardy horses.

                This is for rogues who don't have oats. If there is oats, then the thoroughbred horse is stronger and faster than the nomad horse. Whereas if we take what the Indians ended up with, then there were legends about the tribes, where it was quite realistic to catch a galloping horse and topple it to the ground with the rider, having pulled by the tail.
                Quotation: blooded man
                Although, for example, winters have little snow in Mongolia, they still don’t use horses.

                The small ice age, which is almost over, seems to have begun just at the time of the invasion.
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator 20 January 2018 23: 10
                  +3
                  Quote: brn521
                  The question is not in the breed. The question is the preparation of the horse.

                  I agree, but the breed is also very important. In this case, the horse can either eat pasture and at the same time bear the load or not and no preparation will change it. It should be understood that, in addition to war horses, there were ordinary horses that moved "good" in the campaign, and without them no campaign was possible.

                  Quote: brn521
                  This is still a historical period, after all. 19th century. There are specialists, books, monographs. If you study the limits to whom nomads who spent half their lives in military campaigns and half their lives in training, then these are the Indians of the Great Plains.

                  Nomads did not fight so much. how many empires were built, as the annals say. These are slightly different activities. And why do we need the Indians when there are "native" Krymchaks direct heirs of the Golden Horde who, incidentally, were specifically engaged only in military affairs, raids.
                  Quote: brn521
                  interrupting tebenevka in the winter, turned into almost a pony. No strength, no speed, only endurance. It really looks like a Mongolian breed.

                  I did not read what conclusion you made from this.
                  Quote: brn521
                  And where to get such a nomad? The latter ended in the 19th century.

                  And what do you think of the nomads, if they were engaged only in military affairs? Actually in Mongolia, a significant part still lives like 500 years ago.


                  Quote: brn521
                  This is for rogues who don't have oats. If there is oats, then the thoroughbred horse is stronger and faster than the nomad horse.

                  Right . Only even these small horses the Cossacks fed oats otherwise they could not serve. The Mongols did not know what oats are, it says in the annals, and more importantly, in this state they were found by the Cossacks in the 16th century, and moreover, all the horses are still self-sufficient.
                  Quote: brn521
                  The small ice age, which is almost over, seems to have begun just at the time of the invasion.

                  IGO was 300 years old, well, let's take as a basis about 100 years when the main events and the establishment of this yoke took place. That all 100 years of winter were very warm?
                  1. brn521
                    brn521 22 January 2018 13: 21
                    0
                    Quotation: blooded man
                    I did not read what conclusion you made from this.

                    If the Indians could, then the Mongols could. The breed of horses is what happened due to local conditions. Therefore, the Mongolian is similar to the Indian. It could be the same with people. In strife in isolation received specific professionalism, theoretical and physical training. When the isolation was broken, an army with high fighting qualities was created from them. Breeding is not a problem. The problem is to find the same people.
                    I’ll try to explain how I myself remember the bits I read on the Indians. Before the mass arrival of Europeans, the Indians lived on the Great Plains. We lived well, because About 200 years ago, they had horses that allowed them to prey on large prey, such as bison, and to drag more cargo than dogs dragged on drags. What kind of horses and where they come from, one can only speculate. Because for dozens of generations in Indian herds, without horse breeders, interrupting in the summer with grass, and in winter tebenevka, they degenerated into virtually one breed. Low shaggy horses, similar to the Mongol ones. The Indians had already bred, and they had something to share - pastures and horses. There were tribes, many of which were in a state of permanent war with each other. The main value after fame and weapons were horses. Therefore, the Indians of the Great Plains primarily preferred to rob each other. Because only neighbors could steal or take away the good horses that had been ridden. Half of their life consisted of preparing for war, half of the actual war itself ... When settlers and the military fell on the rampart, they brought with them thoroughbred horses. The Indians stole / selected / bought them and valued them above their own. They were larger, stronger and faster. And endurance was trained thanks to life in Indian herds. But if you leave it as it is, any breed would certainly all the same for several generations under such conditions would degenerate into an "Indian" or "Mongolian". Therefore, there are no questions with the breed. And training comes to the fore. Both the rider and the horse. It is known that she was on top and legends were made about her. Europeans brought with them not only horses, but also weapons. Previously, tribal wars lasted for decades. Since neither of the parties could cause the other quite serious damage. With progress came new opportunities. The tribes could now be quickly cut to the root immediately and completely. Plus epidemics and troops of the British, French and Americans, with their advanced tactics and policies. As a result, part of the tribes was completely destroyed, and part began to unite in alliances. In combination with traditional Native American training, they were so cool that some historians believe that if such a union had appeared earlier, the colonization of those lands would have been impossible in principle. The Mongols could also have a similar alignment. And then the Indians changed their culture and religion. more serious values ​​appeared than "counting ku" on the enemy. And the survival of the entire tribe in the face of constant threat from neighbors no longer depended on training. The same goes for horses. Transformed from a combat tool into draft and mount animals. Trying to reconstruct on this basis what was before is useless. I suspect that it is just as futile to try to reconstruct the cavalry of the time of the Mongol invasion on the basis of the late nomads, whom the regular cavalry took to the peaks in packs.
                    Quotation: blooded man
                    Only even these small horses the Cossacks fed oats otherwise they could not serve.

                    At the same time, mustangs (wild horses, originally thoroughbred), normally managed with one grass. Gaucho tamed and appreciated them. The Gauchs themselves ate mostly meat, and they themselves did not have enough corn for food. This gives reason to suspect that the tamed mustangs still had to kill themselves with grass. Thus, the history of the United States provides us with examples of the existence of good horses that remain functional on a herbal diet.
                    Quotation: blooded man
                    That all 100 years of winter were very warm?

                    On the contrary, the yoke could have arisen because winters have become cold. Transitional period as part of a general deterioration But just because it was a transition period, some Genghis Khan had access to selected thugs who grew up in wild tribes. And some Khan Akhmat - no longer.
                    Quotation: blooded man
                    And why do we need the Indians when there are "native" Krymchaks direct heirs of the Golden Horde who, incidentally, were specifically engaged only in military affairs, raids.

                    Well, the Krymchaks are some kind of mess from peoples and cultures. And they didn’t show themselves much. And the Mongols showed. They got out of some hole and captured almost all of Eurasia. So it seems to me that my approach is logical. We must take the nomads in some hole in similar conditions and see what they could and why. IMHO, the Indians of the Great Plains just right. And their horses were specially trained, able to transfer the journey from Siberia to Europe under their own power on the pasture. The point is small - brainwash the Indians. So that they continue to care about their personal valor and status, "counting ku." And for the neighbors, this would eventually turn into vassalization.
                    1. co-creator
                      co-creator 23 January 2018 15: 26
                      +2
                      Quote: brn521
                      If the Indians could, then the Mongols could.

                      and what could the Indians do? Gather an army of many thousands, at least 30.000 people on horseback? This is at least 30.000 additional horses. That is 60.000 horses. Well, let's reduce to 15.000 although I do not understand how 15.000 could conquer the European countries. It's impossible. After all, people die, horses die not only in battles, but also in diseases. There are no maps and trains to quickly deliver reserves.
                      SO THE INDIANS HAVE SIMULTANEOUSLY 30.000, or at least 1, 000 cavalry army?
                      Quote: brn521
                      Breeding is not a problem. The problem is to find the same people.

                      I am talking only about horses. For the experiment, it does not matter who the rider is, the nutritional standards for humans during such trips are known and there is nothing to check.
                      Quote: brn521
                      . What kind of horses and where they come from, one can only speculate.

                      from the European colonists. No longer from where.
                      Quote: brn521
                      Transformed from a combat tool into draft and mount animals. Trying to reconstruct on this basis what was before is useless.

                      Error. Indians are not nomads. Among the Indians were gatherers. there were warriors, etc. The Mongols are nomads, and the culture of nomads is studied from and to. Nomads have never been engaged in agriculture and their horses have not turned into draft horses until now. Each nomad has a “fighting” horse on which he grazes his cattle and there is a horse that carries a plague and other scrub. So it was with all nomadic peoples and it remains so now. The modern "war horse" is no different from those that were then.


                      Quote: brn521
                      I suspect that it is just as futile to try to reconstruct the cavalry of the time of the Mongol invasion on the basis of the late nomads, whom the regular cavalry took to the peaks in packs.

                      but this is not true. The cavalry did not engage in close combat with the nomads, but dismounted and knocked out the attackers with well-aimed fire. They were cut only in the most extreme case, and here the nomads were not inferior to anything.
                      It is necessary to reconstruct not the cavalry, but the campaign itself.
                      Quote: brn521
                      Thus, the history of the United States provides us with examples of the existence of good horses that remain functional on a herbal diet.

                      I don’t know the history of the Indians, but they never had such trips as the Mongols. Therefore, talking about their performance is another matter.


                      Quote: brn521
                      But just because it was a transition period, some Genghis Khan had access to selected thugs who grew up in wild tribes. And some Khan Akhmat - no longer.

                      Mother cannot be fooled by nature. A horse may or may not. If, however, deal with ASSUMPTIONS, then why is it forbidden to do the same Fomenko?
                      Krymchaks did every year dial and once in decades (or how many there) did one big campaign-raid. Why not every year *? Because a big trip needs to be prepared. Moreover, ALL trips were in summer or spring. Moreover, they were all thugs and were engaged only in robbery.
                      Quote: brn521
                      Well, the Krymchaks are some kind of mess from peoples and cultures. And they didn’t show anything in particular ..

                      Krymchaks more than 100 years robbed Poles and Russians, these countries actually paid tribute to them. AFTER THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF DOCUMENTS. there is a khanate, in the end there are Krymchaks themselves. .
                      Krymchaks are a splinter of the golden horde and the steppe inhabitants.
                      Quote: brn521
                      And the Mongols showed. They got out of some hole and captured almost all of Eurasia.

                      captured on paper, but in fact the Mongols still live where they originally lived. Only Kalmyks remained in Europe. In fact, the Mongol conquest is the replacement of the "princes" of neighboring peoples and tribes with the Mongol ones. Actually, this was the case in Europe with the Vikings, so it was with the Manchus. The Mongol conquests ended where there was no replacement of the elites with the Mongol ones.
                      Quote: brn521
                      So it seems to me that my approach is logical. We must take the nomads in some hole in similar conditions and see what they could and why.

                      Well so I also offer it.
                      Quote: brn521
                      IMHO, the Indians of the Great Plains just right. And their horses were specially trained, able to transfer the journey from Siberia to Europe under their own power on the pasture.

                      so there are the Mongols, Kazakhs, Dzhungars and others. But if you want the Indians, then you can take them. Who cares whose horses will die Asian or Native American.
                      Quote: brn521
                      And their horses were specially trained, able to transfer the journey from Siberia to Europe under their own power on the pasture.

                      Travel and military campaigns are two HUGE differences. How do you not understand this? A couple of dozen Mongolian horses and now you can safely travel through all of Europe and Asia.
                      Quote: brn521
                      The point is small - brainwash the Indians. So that they continue to care about their personal valor and status, "counting ku."

                      What for? what do people have to do with it?
                      Quote: brn521
                      And for the neighbors, this would eventually turn into vassalization.

                      Political control is needed over vassals, otherwise it is not a vassal. That is, either an occupying garrison or an imperial governor from an empire. A vassal cannot be a governor.
                      1. brn521
                        brn521 24 January 2018 17: 34
                        0
                        Quotation: blooded man
                        and what could the Indians do?

                        Once again, demonstrate that savages in individual training are seriously superior to civilized nations. And they themselves, and their horses.
                        Quotation: blooded man
                        Gather an army of many thousands, at least 30.000 people on horseback?

                        30 despite the fact that well-trained fighters are a quarter of the total population - not a problem. The problem is that the Indians had no one and no reason to gather such an army.
                        Quotation: blooded man
                        SO THE INDIANS HAVE SIMULTANEOUSLY 30.000, or at least 1, 000 cavalry army?

                        The Indians of the Great Plains did not have an army in the usual sense. Discipline fundamentally contradicted Native American concepts. They did not even manage their horses, but "agreed" with them.
                        Quotation: blooded man
                        I am talking only about horses.

                        And I'm talking about the fact that the rider defines more than a horse. Including the physical characteristics of the horse. To the point that people are of the same breed. Take one group and prepare for the passage of the rules of the TRP. And from others we will prepare marathon runners. And then we will arrange marathon competitions between them. We get a serious difference. Indians had higher demands on their horses than modern Mongols.
                        Quotation: blooded man
                        food standards for humans during such trips are known and there is nothing to check.

                        The fact of the matter is that these are the nutritional standards for a regular army. And I’m talking about savages who went on a raid or hunting light and interrupted without food for several days, sometimes more than a week. Then, of course, both they and their horses were eaten away. So no oats and supply bases. And all because they were prepared for such a life from childhood. And they treated their horses as members of a tribe and prepared them in the same way.
                        Quotation: blooded man
                        from the European colonists. No longer from where.

                        Life on the northern prairies turned these breeds into Native American ponies anyway.
                        Quotation: blooded man
                        Error. Indians are not nomads.

                        The Great Plains Indians were nomads. No other way. The main source of food is hunting. Which is possible thanks to the horses. And horses are a herd wandering about pastures.
                        Quotation: blooded man
                        Among the Indians were gatherers. there were warriors, etc.

                        All the Indians of the Great Plains were wars. And here I really did not take into account the important points. For example, the Mongols did not have bison. These were mainly shepherds. Hence the differences. The shepherds fed on the herd. For the Indians, horses were members of a tribe. For shepherds, the herd is the property and basis of commodity-money relations. As a result, inequality, large political associations, the military elite, etc.
                        Quotation: blooded man
                        their horses have not turned into draft horses so far

                        There is no permanent war? So there are no horses and people we need.
                        Quotation: blooded man
                        Each nomad has a “fighting” horse on which he grazes his cattle and there is a horse that carries a plague and other scrub.

                        Well yes. Cattle, property relations, social hierarchy, shepherds and nukers. The shepherds were busy with their flocks. Nukers were having fun hunting. If there was no one to hunt, they hunted dogs. I admit that there is clearly not visible Indian motifs. Explicit stratification and division of labor.
                        Quotation: blooded man
                        The cavalry did not engage in close combat with the nomads, but dismounted and knocked out the attackers with well-aimed fire.

                        These are already some dragoons with store rifled guns.
                        One of the advantages of ordinary nomads is that they did not climb into close combat. I drove up, fired. Slightly wrong - he escaped. And the main problem was to catch and kill such characters. To do this, you needed a good horse, a peak and some kind of protective equipment. For example, the Polish winged hussars at the end only lived on that - they drove every little thing through the fields.
                        Quotation: blooded man
                        It is necessary to reconstruct not the cavalry, but the campaign itself.

                        And for this we need TTX cavalry. The basic theme is what the grassy horse was capable of. My opinion is based on reviews of Indian horses. And the point is not in the breed, but in the lifestyle of the Indians themselves.
                        Quotation: blooded man
                        Krymchaks robbed Poles and Russians for more than 100 years

                        Exactly what they robbed. Fortunately, the market for the same slaves was at hand. While the Mongols lived in the backyards and beat their faces mostly to each other.
                        Quotation: blooded man
                        Who cares whose horses will die Asian or Native American.

                        The Indians prepared themselves and their horses for long hungry transitions. That was the way of life. What about the Asians?
                        Quotation: blooded man
                        Travel and military campaigns are two HUGE differences.

                        Depends on the purpose of the trip.
                        Quotation: blooded man
                        captured on paper, but in fact the Mongols still live where they originally lived.

                        But what could prevent them from spending part of the population not on ordinary wars of nomads, but on long trips?
                        Quotation: blooded man
                        What for? what do people have to do with it?

                        And who will train the horses and for what tasks? The modern Mongols with strife are somehow not very. And with hunting in any way. Therefore, to recreate the "same" cavalry, we have neither a rider nor a horse. You can raise an Indian horse in an ordinary stable, and then be surprised that it barely drags hooves without oats. The same thing will happen with the Mongolian rider, grown do not understand where.
                        Quotation: blooded man
                        Political control is needed over vassals, otherwise it is not a vassal.

                        The nearest tribes were literally absorbed. A distant enough threatened invasion of the resulting combined army.
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 18 January 2018 07: 41
      +7
      Why stigmatization? Slenderness of presentation - present. Links are not overloaded. It is clear that you cannot deal with all eras. But for an article in the format of VO is quite perceived.

      Yes, probably orientalists can find fault with something.

      Interesting - that means not in vain.
      1. Net
        Net 18 January 2018 09: 19
        +8
        The author wants to prove that various armed gangs and formations from the 9th century to the 19th century on the territory from Japan to the Caucasus (or maybe to Berlin) are called "Mongols". In a beautiful Western Catholic setting.

        And not a single image of Mongolian history proper (from the National Museum in Ulan Bator). This is called science of science and perversion of history.
        1. kalibr
          18 January 2018 10: 18
          +5
          "In a beautiful Western Catholic exposition" Does the PSRL abbreviation tell you anything? Is this also a "Western Catholic exposition"?
          And about the museum in Ulan Bator ... Yes, it will be necessary to get there, see, maybe talk with its employees. But so far, in my opinion, such a need has not arisen. Do you want Try it ... About the results you can very well make interesting material for all readers of VO.
          1. Net
            Net 19 January 2018 14: 03
            +2
            LEARN, LEARN and LEARN, dear Caliber. And do not invent euromarasms. First, the Old Mongolian language. Then find the sword with Old Mongol inscriptions, decrypt it. And then think what to write in.
            1. kalibr
              19 January 2018 17: 42
              +2
              “First to the Old Mongolian language” - do you know it? Let’s do this: a list of references at the end of the first article, and at the end of this. Monographs of Khudyakov and Sokolov, as well as Belorybkin. Turnbull's books are desirable, especially since they are in the Russian translation.
              Then your desktop magazines should be: "Issues of History", "History of State and Law", "Homeland", "History Illustrated". “Archeology, Ethnography and Anthropology of Eurasia” - this is not necessary for you. But why not Russian Archeology? Here you read it all ... then give me advice!
              1. Net
                Net 20 January 2018 03: 52
                +2
                Do not worry, studied, unlike you. As I know, the "criteria" by which articles are selected in your "journals".
                And you study:
                1. Russian-Mongolian dictionary of the Khalkass dialect. / Comp. R. Bimbaev. Harbin. 1914.
                2. Japanese-Russian educational dictionary of hieroglyphs. M: Russian language. 1977 s.
                3. I am Schmidt. Tibetan-Russian dictionary. SPb: Imperial Academy of Sciences. 1845 s.
                4. Yu.N. Roerich. Tibetan-Russian-English dictionary with Sanskrit parallels. in 10 volumes. M.: Science. 1983-1988.
                5. Atlas of Tibetan medicine. M: Galart. 1994 (with comments "Blue Lazurik") - more than 10 thousand illustrations about the life of medieval Tibet, India, Mongolia, China and neighboring countries.
                6. Hindi-Russian dictionary. In two volumes. / Barkhudarov A.S. et al. M: Soviet Encyclopedia, 1972. 910 p.
                7. Materials and craft production of ancient Egypt. M. Inostr. literature. 1958. 745 p. (here is full of Anglo-ravings, but at least get some idea of ​​ancient technologies).
                And then we will discuss your "Mongolian" fantasies on the theme of the East.
                Have you agreed?
        2. Dimmih
          Dimmih 18 January 2018 11: 15
          +6
          State your Vision and back it with historiography, it will be interesting to see! Good luck in this endeavor! When you reveal the article to the world, specify?
          1. Alex1117
            Alex1117 19 January 2018 05: 54
            +2
            "We are already visible for centuries
            Indistinguishable in detail.
            And only historians are given
            The ability to lie documented "

            I.Guberman

            I believe that it’s not worth bothering with the topic “state your vision”. For in order to state a more or less real vision, you need a documented
            texture. But it is just not there. Therefore, any other vision will be no less fantastic than that set forth by Shpakovsky. But it will be perceived with hostility, since the fiction set forth by Shpakovsky, despite all its comic, for example, in the part of the Mongol seafarers who land in Japan, is still familiar to most of the population. But, as the discussion here and not only here shows, adherents of the fantasy of the great Mongol conquest are becoming less and less every year. But still there are still more than half of them.
            1. Dimmih
              Dimmih 19 January 2018 07: 19
              +4
              Huberman is certainly an authoritative historian, a pillar of science. He does not believe, whom to believe? I offer you and your companions an argument suitable for everything: "These books are corrupted and Roman heresies are full!" I don’t remember where already, I am writing from memory, but it is suitable for denying at least the Batu Khan, at least the sphericity of the Earth. Quote from you: “But, as the discussion here and not only here shows, the followers of the fantasy of the great Mongol conquest are becoming less and less every year. But still there are still more than half of them.” I am glad that more than half of the people are still in their right mind and firm memory.
            2. long in stock.
              long in stock. 19 January 2018 07: 46
              +4
              much more than half .. and it pleases that people who know how to think are not gone .. but when the iPhone and Google generation replenish your ranks ... however, then it will not be necessary to think about the Mongol invasion but about the survival of the nation ..
          2. kalibr
            19 January 2018 08: 23
            +4
            They do not want to do this! Not with a hand! In the comments, links are not required - blurted out, well, thank God. And you’ll write ... they will pour ... it will require links. And he "did not read this novel either." And how - a shame ?! Therefore, do not ask them about articles. It’s like a fight in the testicles ...
        3. Korsar4
          Korsar4 18 January 2018 13: 12
          0
          Here is a question of terminology. I do not consider it criminal.
    3. Artek
      Artek 18 January 2018 07: 58
      +5
      the helmet is interesting, they write like Mongolian, and the ornaments are in the form of a trefoil, and the trefoil is European Vedic symbolism.



      but the image of the three-leafed on the staff of the image of Ivan the Terrible actor Gerasimov. What does this mean? That these helmets are somehow not Asian. At least not from the time of Genghis Khan and Batu

      .
      1. kalibr
        18 January 2018 08: 16
        11
        The helmet photograph you brought from the Invasion Museum. Either it was found at the landing site of the Mongols in Japan, or we capture it and how the trophy was placed in one of the temples. So this thing is 1274 of the year for sure. But about the trefoil on the staff "from the movie" I would not be deceived. In the "Alexander Nevsky" on the crusaders there are helmets with horns. The warrior monks! Which, according to the charter of the order, it was forbidden to decorate them. Cinema is a bad source!
        1. Artek
          Artek 18 January 2018 09: 05
          +6
          The helmet photograph you brought from the Invasion Museum. Either it was found at the landing site of the Mongols in Japan, or we capture it and how the trophy was placed in one of the temples. So this thing of 1274 is for sure ___

          the fact that the "Mongols" landed in Japan is without a doubt, but not the Mongols.

          about the royal regalia, you don’t know the story. In the movie "Ivan the Terrible" the correct staff was exactly what he was at that time.

          For example, the rod-staff of Tsar Alexei with the trefoil.



          http://vvromanov.shpl.ru/page7.html
          1. Serg65
            Serg65 18 January 2018 10: 03
            16
            Quote: Artek
            the fact that the "Mongols" landed in Japan is without a doubt, but not the Mongols.

            what Were these ancient Russes?
            Then it all fits together! Ancient Ukrainians digging the Black Sea created an incredible noise and raised such clouds of dust that their neighbors had to rush to the East, and there they heard the legend of the legendary Sushi dish (from here the word “drying” appeared in Russian) that they make on the distant island of Yapa (from here the Russian word "pit" is the edge of the earth)!
            Quote: Artek
            about royal regalia, you don’t know the story

            and therefore only
            Quote: Artek
            In the movie "Ivan the Terrible", the correct staff was exactly what he was at that time.

            good
            1. novel66
              novel66 18 January 2018 10: 49
              +9
              Yeah, I got a pervert, Mongol-lover! hi Told you the same Russian language was not!
              1. Serg65
                Serg65 18 January 2018 10: 59
                +9
                laughing Great legalist-creator of the Ural Mountains hi
                Quote: novel xnumx
                yeah, caught

                recourse Are you hiding from you ???
                Quote: novel xnumx
                DID NOT HAVE!

                wassat And what did I write sho WAS ???
                1. novel66
                  novel66 18 January 2018 11: 01
                  +6
                  you protect the Mongols all the time! you work for Hitler!
                  1. Serg65
                    Serg65 18 January 2018 11: 06
                    +8
                    Quote: novel xnumx
                    you work for Hitler!

                    angry Eeee, think what the talk is yeah !!!!
                    Quote: novel xnumx
                    you protect the Mongols all the time!

                    laughing Hitler and Genghis Khan are twin brothers !!! tongue
                    1. novel66
                      novel66 18 January 2018 11: 09
                      +9
                      in “Genghis Khan” all Germans tongue tongue
                      1. Serg65
                        Serg65 18 January 2018 11: 26
                        +6
                        No. EEE brother, where have you seen a real German now?
                      2. Serg65
                        Serg65 18 January 2018 11: 27
                        +6
                        Quote: novel xnumx
                        in “Genghis Khan” all Germans tongue tongue

                        good laughing Krasavchik aaaa !!!!!! drinks
                      3. Freeman
                        Freeman 18 January 2018 23: 29
                        0
                        Quote: novel xnumx
                        in “Genghis Khan” all Germans tongue tongue

                        stop "International" however
                        The group included only six participants: vocalists from Hungary Edina Pop (born in 1941) and Leslie Mandoki (born in 1953), Germans Henriett Heichel (born 1953) and Wolfgang Heichel (born 1950), UK vocalist Steve Bender (born 1942) and south african dancer Lewis Hendrick Podgater (born 1951).
            2. sd68
              sd68 18 January 2018 20: 23
              +2
              and all this was some two hundred years ago, as Comrade Fomenko correctly pointed out to dunno good
          2. kalibr
            18 January 2018 10: 23
            +2
            "Tsar Alexei"? Or Ivan? Glad we have such a good staff specialist. I would be very glad to read the article, well, let's say this: STAFF OF RUSSIAN SAMOderzhtsev. I am sure everyone will be interested ...
            1. Artek
              Artek 18 January 2018 11: 18
              +2
              Quote: kalibr
              Tsar Alexei? Or Ivan? I am glad that we have such a good specialist in staffs. I would be very glad to read an article, well, let's say this: STAFF OF RUSSIAN SAMOderzhtsev. I am sure everyone will be interested ...


              I gave a link that you can’t read?
            2. Mikado
              Mikado 18 January 2018 12: 14
              +3
              STAFF OF RUSSIAN AUTOMOBILE. I am sure everyone will be interested ...

              or "History of the Field Marshal's Wand," by the way, would also be nice. what interesting examples - the darkness is dark. hi
              Yes, Vyacheslav Olegovich, why is the armor not shown from the bottom to the bottom? All apologists for pseudo-history know about the Mongolian holostas! wink Joke!
              1. kalibr
                18 January 2018 13: 33
                +2
                If I myself were in Leeds, I probably would have shot it. But I'm still far from Leeds!
                1. Mikado
                  Mikado 18 January 2018 13: 36
                  +1
                  interesting, but is there something similar in Stockholm? I, I repent, was not in Europe.
                  1. kalibr
                    18 January 2018 17: 37
                    +2
                    There are many !!! You will go to Stockholm - I will supply you with an accurate map of any interesting places. Then you get tired of writing articles !!!
                    1. Mikado
                      Mikado 18 January 2018 17: 56
                      +1
                      Your words would be .. recourse but .. than life is not joking! yes
              2. kalibr
                19 January 2018 08: 19
                +1
                By the way, I found a photo in the back. Will be for you!
                1. Mikado
                  Mikado 19 January 2018 11: 13
                  +2
                  good hi develop or confirm holosiness! laughing
          3. Anton Capucin
            Anton Capucin 18 January 2018 11: 56
            +5
            This is also a symbol of the Bourbons, maybe Ivan the Terrible of this freemason or some kind of paddling pool.
            1. Looking for
              Looking for 18 January 2018 21: 58
              0
              "Oh, my dear, lily was a symbol of the French kingdom hundreds of years before the Bourbons.
          4. Hantengri
            Hantengri 18 January 2018 20: 16
            +2
            Quote: Artek
            The helmet photograph you brought from the Invasion Museum. Either it was found at the landing site of the Mongols in Japan, or we capture it and how the trophy was placed in one of the temples. So this thing of 1274 is for sure ___
            the fact that the "Mongols" landed in Japan is without a doubt, but not the Mongols.
            about the royal regalia, you don’t know the story. In the movie "Ivan the Terrible" the correct staff was exactly what he was at that time.
            For example, the rod-staff of Tsar Alexei with the trefoil.

            I want to ask, omniscient! What is it? What places? What era?
            And from what bin is your “trefoil” present on them?
            1. Artek
              Artek 18 January 2018 20: 19
              +2
              I do not see the trefoil
              1. Hantengri
                Hantengri 18 January 2018 20: 26
                +4
                Have you seen the Mongolian helmet? You, my friend, apparently have very selective vision! lol
                1. Hantengri
                  Hantengri 18 January 2018 20: 58
                  +4
                  PS Another eye test:
                  And here you don’t see anything similar to your “trilistnik” (the trilistnik is correct to write through “and”)?
        2. Artek
          Artek 18 January 2018 11: 46
          +3
          Quote: kalibr
          The helmet photograph you brought from the Invasion Museum. Either it was found at the landing site of the Mongols in Japan, or we capture it and how the trophy was placed in one of the temples. So this thing of 1274 is for sure


          here is what exactly 1274 causes a great doubt, how did they date this event there?
          In general, about the fact that the trefoil phenomenon in general, then the global one can be traced in the later images of, say, Chinese officials, but this was already in the 17th century.

          1. Anton Capucin
            Anton Capucin 18 January 2018 12: 03
            +1
            here is what exactly 1274 causes a great doubt, how did they date this event there?
            In general, about the fact that the trefoil phenomenon in general, then the global one can be traced in the later images of, say, Chinese officials, but this was already in the 17th century.

            Yeah, let's learn history from pictures, determine everything purely from pictures and facts far-fetched. In short, read how analyzes are made in archeology and how they are correlated with historical documents. Why, for example, it is necessary to extract finds according to all the rules, and what black archaeologists get is losing historical value.
            1. Artek
              Artek 18 January 2018 12: 15
              +2
              Quote: Anton Capucin
              In short, read how analyzes are made in archeology and how they relate to

              in short, you yourself read how analyzes are done.
            2. co-creator
              co-creator 19 January 2018 04: 12
              +3
              Archeologists do not engage in fraud and do not focus on historical events?)
          2. kalibr
            18 January 2018 13: 32
            +6
            "this is exactly what 1274g raises a big doubt, how did they date this event there?"
            The text about him dates from this year! It says so and so in a year ... And since the history of Japan goes to the emperors and their family has never been interrupted, then ... count back to the necessary number of years and then the emperor will be ruling and the year of his reign, which is easy to correlate with ours. Must read smart books, read! Then write already !!!
        3. Alex1117
          Alex1117 19 January 2018 06: 10
          +1
          It is correct to say not: “The thing is not exactly 1274”, but “The thing is dated by historians as relating to 1274”. That is, a number of historians specializing in this subject have agreed among themselves that the thing is “exactly 1274”. And historians who specialize, for example, in Ancient Egypt or Ancient Greece, a priori recognized their opinion. For which historians specializing in the "Mongols" and the Japanese recognize some kind of agreement among historians specializing in Ancient Egypt or Ancient Greece. So, in fact, a thing (helmet) can have a completely different origin in time and space. For example, to be a Korean helmet captured during the Japanese attempts to conquer Korea, nipped by Lee Song Sin.
          1. kalibr
            19 January 2018 08: 17
            0
            Yes, it will certainly be more correct.
      2. Serg65
        Serg65 18 January 2018 09: 55
        +9
        Quote: Artek
        What does it say?

        laughing good Exactly ..... the Mongols are an English fake! Hmm ... yes, and the Chinese fake, what really trifle then wassat
        1. novel66
          novel66 18 January 2018 10: 50
          +6
          China's ancient history is also in doubt tongue
          1. Serg65
            Serg65 18 January 2018 11: 03
            +7
            Quote: novel xnumx
            China's ancient history is also in doubt tongue

            bully And identity too! In the light of the newly discovered facts of the construction of the Egyptian pyramids, the history of China deserves to be reconsidered for the false facts of the construction of the Great Wall of China !!!
            1. novel66
              novel66 18 January 2018 11: 07
              +3
              hit the spot! its antiquity causes many doubts
              1. Serg65
                Serg65 18 January 2018 11: 21
                +7
                Quote: novel xnumx
                its antiquity causes many doubts

                what Here I am, Roma, I think in figs to build this wall, if the main areal for the growth of hemp is located to the North from this wall ????
                Nah, it’s definitely not the Chinese who built !!!!!
                From behind this wall they had to switch from hash to heroin! This wall almost killed them, thanks to the Great Helmsman !!!!!
                1. novel66
                  novel66 18 January 2018 12: 05
                  +4
                  Hongweibins (yuck, damn it, I almost got upset) - go ahead !!
                  1. Serg65
                    Serg65 18 January 2018 12: 11
                    +7
                    Quote: novel xnumx
                    Hongweibins - go ahead !!

                    Roma, you wouldn’t have woken up the hungweibins or something, and they, too, in Rossy Mutushka will make population growth for free wassat
        2. Servisinzhener
          Servisinzhener 19 January 2018 13: 12
          +1
          What they can’t think of on flat earth with a firm vault of heaven. And all the archaeological finds of that time were made in a hangar next to the one in which the landing on the moon was filmed. wassat
      3. Luga
        Luga 18 January 2018 11: 06
        +8
        Quote: Artek
        the helmet is interesting, they write like Mongolian, and the ornaments are in the form of a trefoil, and the trefoil is European Vedic symbolism.

        And between the “trefoils” human buttocks are clearly visible. Certain conclusions can also be drawn from this, but for reasons of censorship I will not cite them here.
        By the way, "Ivan the Terrible" in your image holds in its hands the French heraldic lily in its purest form. Does this speak of his Western European orientation?
        Shamrock is a stylized image of clover leaves, looks completely different.
        They would be curious about the shamrock and the lily before displaying ignorance. To say that the trefoil is purely Vedic symbolism is the same as to say that the cross is exclusively Christian symbolism.
        1. Artek
          Artek 18 January 2018 11: 23
          +4
          Quote: Luga
          And between the “trefoils” human buttocks are clearly visible. Certain conclusions can also be drawn from this, but for reasons of censorship I will not cite them here.


          nnda, what can we say about the interlocutor, who always seems asshole.

          Quote: Luga
          By the way, "Ivan the Terrible" in your image holds in its hands the French heraldic lily in its purest form. Does this speak of his Western European orientation?

          In general, this lily came to the power of Galia / France only after the Bourbon clan came into power in 1589, already after the death of Ivan the Terrible, so by.
          Quote: Luga
          Shamrock is a stylized image of clover leaves, looks completely different.

          and how?
          Quote: Luga
          They would be curious about the shamrock and the lily before displaying ignorance. To say that the trefoil is purely Vedic symbolism is the same as to say that the cross is exclusively Christian symbolism.

          for one who sees ass everywhere, it’s not appropriate to talk about ignorance.
          1. Luga
            Luga 18 January 2018 12: 34
            +6
            Quote: Artek
            In general, this lily came to the power of Galia / France only after the Bourbon clan came into power in 1589, already after the death of Ivan the Terrible, so by.

            I say - take an interest. About capetations, Merovingians, their emblems and symbols ... Recently, by the way, so as not to go far, a series of articles about the Rose War in England was, a lot of illustrations, take a closer look at the arms, or something ... And you can also look at Wikipedia , but just type in Yandex the query "heraldic lily" - you should feel better. Or flush, but here I am already powerless.
            Quote: Artek
            and how?

            Again, go to Yandex or Google and type in the query "heraldic shamrock." For the gifted or lazy, I can tell you - the trefoil is depicted as a stylized clover leaf with or without a stalk. For the very illiterate and lazy - "three green hearts connected by sharp ends at an angle of 120 degrees." fool
            Quote: Artek
            nnda, what can we say about the interlocutor who always seems to be ass.

            Quote: Artek
            for the one who sees everywhere ass, as it is not appropriate to talk about ignorance.

            I see you liked the word. Although you wrote it without errors, it pleases. You could well expect from you to write through "ё". laughing
            By the way, I do not see her everywhere, but only where her aura is clearly present. For example, in your posts. wink
            1. Artek
              Artek 18 January 2018 13: 41
              +3
              Quote: Luga
              I say - take an interest.

              Quote: Luga
              Again go to Yandex or Google and type


              You are a very useful and interesting conversationalist.

              I see the word you liked


              No, I didn’t like it, I just had to by the time.

          2. kalibr
            18 January 2018 13: 26
            +3
            “In general, this lily came to the power of Galia / France only after the Bourbon clan came into power in 1589, already after the death of Ivan the Terrible, so by” - what ignorance, Lord! The flag of Jeanne Dark was decorated with ROYAL LILIES. I’ve given so many articles on medieval miniatures and there ... everything was!
            1. Artek
              Artek 18 January 2018 13: 57
              +2
              Quote: kalibr
              In general, this lily came to the power of Galia / France only after the Bourbon clan came into power in 1589, already after the death of Ivan the Terrible, so by - "what ignorance, Lord! Jeanne Dark’s flag was decorated with ROYAL LILIES


              what you “give” here, just history doesn’t correspond much. You convey not your thoughts, not your own. In your opinion, Ivan4 should, like a parrot, distort symbolism, some kind of dark one, because you didn’t have your own? This is not a story.
              1. Luga
                Luga 18 January 2018 14: 44
                +3
                Quote: Artek
                In your Ivan4 should, like a parrot, tear apart symbolism, some kind of dark

                This is your way.
                Based on a shot from the movie, you concluded that Ivan IV used this symbol (“trefoil” in your language). The staff of Alexei Mikhailovich, to the photograph of which you are referring, did not belong to Ivan, since he was brought to Russia ... I don’t remember which year, but already in the 17th century. for sure. And it was not made in Russia, but received as a gift from abroad. Check for yourself where exactly, if interested. Perhaps from Constantinople, from the Turks, but not sure. And the question remains whether Alexey Mikhailovich used this staff.
                As for the heraldic lilies (what you call a “trefoil”), this symbol is very ancient, has been used since time immemorial, including in the east. Do you really want me to start telling you the story of this symbol as part of the discussion of this article? Moreover, on the helmet under discussion these lilies (“three-leafed”, I apologize) are as many as the buttocks.
                1. The comment was deleted.
              2. kalibr
                18 January 2018 17: 35
                +1
                I do not write what I have to. Why should? It’s just that lilies were the royal emblem in France for a long time, that’s all.
              3. Hantengri
                Hantengri 18 January 2018 21: 06
                +2
                Quote: Artek
                You are not conveying your thoughts, not yours.

                Bravo! Can I bring this masterpiece to my quote book?
                1. Slavs
                  Slavs 18 January 2018 23: 26
                  +2
                  "You are not conveying your thoughts, not yours."
                  Beating ... Klitschko, are you really ?!
            2. Korsar4
              Korsar4 18 January 2018 21: 03
              +1
              As I understand it, it all started with the rescue of Clovis. And what the lily sees was actually an iris.
      4. Dimmih
        Dimmih 18 January 2018 11: 17
        +2
        Can you tell me how the Vedas are related to Europe? The combination of "Vedic shamrock" in what scientific literature is mentioned?
        1. Artek
          Artek 18 January 2018 11: 53
          +2
          Quote: Dimmih
          Can you tell me how the Vedas are related to Europe? The combination of "Vedic shamrock" in what scientific literature is mentioned?


          in general, the fact that Vedicism / paganism used to be mentioned in Russia is generally little mentioned by academic science, so you will not find fundamental research, maybe only a little from Rybakov. Why is the trefoil precisely pre-Christian symbolism? Probably because the shamrock is missing from the list of Christian symbols.
          1. Dimmih
            Dimmih 18 January 2018 12: 49
            +6
            The Vedas are a collection of sacred hymns in Sanskrit, this has nothing to do with Russia, the Slavs did not say in Sanskrit. Please, respond to this. Next, the question of whether the shamrock is a Christian symbol, I actually did not ask you, since this is not a mystery. You answer, if possible, to the question asked. And then you ask the question yourself and answer it yourself — in order to conceal a large volume of the answer to ignorance of the subject, to pour more water, so to speak. Quotation: “in general, that in Russia there used to be Vedicism / paganism there is little mention of academic science” is generally a pearl! What does it mean? Academic science fully recognizes the paganism of the ancient Slavs and studies to the best of its strength. Deign not to pour water, but to provide arguments.
            1. Artek
              Artek 18 January 2018 13: 36
              +4
              Quote: Dimmih
              The Vedas are a collection of sacred hymns in Sanskrit, this has nothing to do with Russia, the Slavs did not say in Sanskrit. Please, respond to this.


              Candidate of historical sciences Svetlana Zharnikova notes that there are a lot of connections between Russian and Sanskrit, it can be said that Sanskrit is Russian.
              watch from 4min.



              Quote: Dimmih
              Next, the question of whether the shamrock is a Christian symbol, I actually did not ask you, since this is not a mystery. You answer, if possible, to the question asked. And then you ask the question yourself and answer it yourself, in order to hide the ignorance of the subject with a large volume of answer, so to speak to pour more water.

              definitely too much water.

              Quote: Dimmih
              Quote: "in general, what was previously Vedicism / paganism in Russia is generally little mentioned by academic science" is generally a pearl! What does it mean? Academic science fully recognizes the paganism of the ancient Slavs and studies to the best of its strength. Deign not to pour water, but to provide arguments.

              I told you that since it’s not a Christian symbol, then the Vedic from the Russian word _know_ do you know this?
              1. kalibr
                18 January 2018 17: 30
                +2
                I am also a candidate of historical sciences, but I would not argue so categorically. Mother is Sanskrit, mother is Russ. Agni is Sanskrit, fire is Russ. There are many examples. Which speaks of common roots, which is not denied by anyone. But to understand the speaker in Sanskrit, you would ... not understand.
                1. Artek
                  Artek 18 January 2018 18: 08
                  +2
                  Quote: kalibr
                  . But to understand the speaker in Sanskrit, you would ... not understand.

                  do not confuse vocabulary and phonetics.
                  1. kalibr
                    18 January 2018 19: 35
                    +1
                    Then read this: Sanskrit Hindi Russian Lithuanian German English Latin
                    pita pita father tevas Vater father pater
                    mata mata mother moteris mutter mother mater
                    b'rata b'ai brother brolis Bruder brother frater
                    duhita d'i daughter dukteris tochter daughter filia
                    three tin three tris drei three tres
                    agnis ag fire
                    axus ank 'eye akis auge eye oculo
                    samyoga sang 'union sajuga union union unio
                    tara sitara star zvaigzde stern star stella
                    1. Artek
                      Artek 18 January 2018 20: 54
                      +2
                      I believe in Svetlana Zharnikova more.
                      1. kalibr
                        19 January 2018 08: 13
                        0
                        You can believe in God, but with regard to facts and information - you need to know here.
                    2. Operator
                      Operator 18 January 2018 21: 24
                      +1
                      Quote: kalibr
                      Then read this

                      Sanskrit is the basis of all Indo-European languages.

                      But for Russians, it is native (transmitted by the ancestors of the Aryans), and for Indians, Romans, Germans, British and Lithuanians - it was borrowed as a result of cultural assimilation by the Aryans.

                      Such a "minor" detail laughing
                      1. Dimmih
                        Dimmih 19 January 2018 05: 08
                        +2
                        Reading you, I think that someone's Aryan ancestors immensely used sacred soma, which affected the mental abilities of their descendants very negatively. Sanskrit is one of the most well-fixed ancient Indo-European languages ​​separated from the pre-Indo-European, just the rest did not have an oral and written tradition. No more and no less.
                  2. kalibr
                    18 January 2018 19: 46
                    +1
                    And here it is readuh ...
                    1. Artek
                      Artek 18 January 2018 20: 51
                      +2
                      read it yourself.
                      1. kalibr
                        19 January 2018 08: 12
                        0
                        So you are a Sanskrit scholar, not me ... You have the text in your hands.
                2. Artek
                  Artek 18 January 2018 18: 20
                  +2
                  Quote: kalibr
                  I am also a candidate of historical sciences, but I would not argue so categorically. Mother is Sanskrit, mother is Russ. Agni is Sanskrit, fire is Russ. There are many examples. Which speaks of common roots, which is not denied by anyone. But to understand the speaker in Sanskrit, you would ... not understand.


                  those. you do not see similarities in these words?
                  Davinci said
                  there are people who see everything themselves, there are people who see if they are shown to them, and there are people who do not see even if they are shown to them. You probably have 3 categories.
                  1. kalibr
                    18 January 2018 19: 32
                    +3
                    I see similarity, but similarity is not identity. Here I repeat it to you a second time. "What speaks of common roots, which is not denied by anyone. But you would not ... understand Sanskrit speaker." And you are certainly from the third category. Because you have to repeat what you repeat from my text!
              2. Hantengri
                Hantengri 18 January 2018 21: 25
                +3
                Quote: Artek
                Candidate of historical sciences Svetlana Zharnikova notes that there are a lot of connections between Russian and Sanskrit, it can be said that Sanskrit is Russian.

                Quote: Artek
                I believe in Svetlana Zharnikova

                Quote: Artek
                read it yourself.

                Quote: Artek
                those. you do not see similarities in these words?

                Here is the Sanskrit text, in Russian letters, for ease of perception:
                iti te jnanam akyatam
                guhyad guhyataram maya
                vimrishyaitad asesena
                yathechchashi tatha kuru

                sarva-guhyatamam bhuyah
                shrinu me paramam vachah
                ishto 'si me dryham iti
                tato wakshyami te hitam

                man mana bhava mad bhakto
                mad yaji mam namaskuru
                mam evaisyasi satyam te
                pratijane priyo si me

                Assignment: See the similarities and ... at least 30% translate ... I laugh in advance! laughing
                1. Slavs
                  Slavs 18 January 2018 23: 33
                  +1
                  bhuyah
                  I just realized a little here ... And that's it ..))
              3. Dimmih
                Dimmih 19 January 2018 05: 00
                +2
                1) I met candidates of historical sciences who claimed that the Veles book is a valuable source of information (I have a specialized education, I had to communicate). And in parallel, a lot of other things were claimed that made one doubt their mental health. The relationship between Russian and Sanskrit is about the same as German. Of the European languages, one of the Baltic languages, in my opinion Lithuanian, is closest to Sanskrit. This is not a gag, I read in the spouse’s language dictionary, I have a philologist. If Zharikova is right, then you are supposed to understand in the original Rig Vedu whether you dare to assert this? 2) Quote: “I told you that since it’s not a Christian symbol, then the Vedic from the Russian word _know_ —you know that?” What kind of game is this? Since when is not Christian = Vedic? Please answer this question in detail. Russian-is written with two letters C, it is, for reference.
                1. kalibr
                  19 January 2018 08: 09
                  0
                  ) I met candidates of historical sciences who claimed that the Veles book is a valuable source of information (I have a specialized education, I had to communicate). - That's it! People are different and it happens that different places fall into science.
          2. kalibr
            18 January 2018 13: 24
            +3
            "generally little is mentioned by academic science." Connoisseurs, damn it! Read the Mavrodin ...
            1. Artek
              Artek 18 January 2018 13: 59
              +2
              Quote: kalibr
              "generally little is mentioned by academic science." Connoisseurs, damn it! Read the Mavrodin ...


              and what does he write about the trefoil there?
              1. kalibr
                18 January 2018 17: 27
                +1
                Nothing about the shamrock. And is this what interests you the most?
                1. Artek
                  Artek 18 January 2018 18: 10
                  +2
                  Quote: kalibr
                  Nothing about the shamrock. And is this what interests you the most?

                  you somehow quickly forgot what we were talking about, the shamrock, as a European symbol.
                  1. kalibr
                    18 January 2018 19: 28
                    +1
                    I do not forget anything. But I did not write anything about the trefoil. Heraldic lily is another matter. It is on all the arms of the French kings long before Grozny.
                    1. Artek
                      Artek 18 January 2018 20: 44
                      +2
                      Quote: kalibr
                      I do not forget anything. But I did not write anything about the trefoil. Heraldic lily is another matter. It is on all the arms of the French kings long before Grozny.


                      what kings? In general, France is an area adjacent to Lutetia-Paris from some times, and it was until the 18th century. And Louis was the king of the Galovs from 14 to 17 centuries.
                      map of August Windel 1760god, large Galia.


                      card 1546 year. Paolo Forlani, Galia - Celtic, Lutetia / Paris - The Galician city and the small area around Lutetia is called France.



                      and finally a portrait of Louis 14 a dolphin of Gali, a king of Gali

                      1. Hantengri
                        Hantengri 18 January 2018 21: 40
                        +5
                        Quote: Artek
                        Louis 14_17th century was the king of Galov.
                        map of August Windel 1760god, large Galia.

                        France does not exist in modern times. This is a fake world backstage! wassat Type in the search engine "France, in Greek," or "French, in Greek" ... And there will be a holiday in your home! laughing
          3. Lord_Raven
            Lord_Raven 18 January 2018 14: 57
            +3
            Quote: Artek
            in general, the fact that in Russia there used to be Vedicism / paganism is generally little mentioned by academic science, so you will not find fundamental research, maybe only a little from Rybakov.

            "That's why I love peanuts, because of their clearness" ©. Well, is it really difficult to go, for example, into the cyberlenink and see the number of publications on this topic. About 2 thousand works are published by keywords, and this despite the fact that there are only digitized ones. And how many have not yet come from earlier ...
            1. kalibr
              18 January 2018 17: 26
              +3
              So you have to go somewhere !!! But a person mastered one site, and that’s all ... One with difficulty ...
          4. kalibr
            18 January 2018 17: 33
            +2
            Rybakov B.A. "Paganism of the ancient Slavs", M.: Science, 1980. . 640 p. Is it a bit?
      5. Cxnumx
        Cxnumx 18 January 2018 11: 53
        +3
        somehow it’s very difficult for me to believe that only in one image of the “trefoil” does the helmet cease to belong to the east. here is another 1 helmet

        or here

        the first is structurally so very similar, but already without a figured plate, a simple utilitarian option. the second just without a shamrock - almost one in one.
        source https://swordmaster.org/2010/01/25/kitajskie-dosp
        exi.html
    4. Cxnumx
      Cxnumx 18 January 2018 09: 38
      +2
      Quote: Net
      Mongolian horse at 1 meter high all these weapons will take away?

      and you count how much it all weighs. weight complete knight's armor is only 20-30 kg. Yes, soldiers are now carrying more. on myself. on foot. and you're talking about the Mongols on horseback. oh yes, in your opinion, the Mongol warrior carried all kinds of weapons with him: a bow + body 10 arrows, a dozen darts, a sword, a saber, a mace, a shield, armor, a pair of knives, metal armor, a metal helmet. didn’t forget anything? or need more spare weapons add?
      1. kalibr
        18 January 2018 10: 14
        +3
        This is not in my opinion. My opinion is not here at all. This was written by Plano Carpini, Guillaume de Rubruk, Marco Polo. Thumbnails show this ...
      2. co-creator
        co-creator 19 January 2018 04: 22
        +2
        Quote: K0
        and you're talking about the Mongols on horseback. oh yes, in your opinion, the Mongol warrior carried all kinds of weapons with him: a bow + body 10 arrows, a dozen darts, a sword, a saber, a mace, a shield, armor, a pair of knives, metal armor, a metal helmet. didn’t forget anything? Or do I still need to add spare weapons?

        Yes, who knows. In the 17th century, Cossacks came to Lake Baikal in the winter, and they won all the Mongols in short. Why? Yes, because the Cossacks could ride horses, but the Mongols did not. Well, a horse cannot work intensively on pasture.
        1. Cxnumx
          Cxnumx 19 January 2018 07: 17
          +1
          Quotation: blooded man
          Yes, who knows. In the 17th century, Cossacks came to Lake Baikal in the winter, and they won all the Mongols in short. Why? Yes, because the Cossacks could ride horses, but the Mongols did not. Well, a horse cannot work intensively on pasture.

          we must think in the example with the Cossacks the whole thing is precisely in the horses, and not in the much more developed military affairs and weapons. the nomadic tribes of the whole world (including the Huns, who fought with Rome, Scythians with Byzantium, the Pechenegs, Polovtsy, etc.) somehow, you understand, were dispensed with with available means, but the Mongols didn’t. Huns also write down in myths?
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 19 January 2018 12: 21
            +2
            Quote: K0
            we must think in the example with the Cossacks the whole thing is precisely in the horses, and not in the much more developed military affairs and weapons. nomadic tribes of the whole world

            And what kind of weapons did the Cossacks have so that they could defeat the aborigines by orders of magnitude superior in quantity and fighting all their lives? That they were afraid of the beeps that the Cossacks had a maximum of several dozen or a couple of small guns?
            Those Cossacks were not trained in any military tactics; they are exactly the same in essence the Mongols, only Russians.

            Quote: K0
            Huns also write down in myths?

            What about the Huns? A bunch of Cossacks conquered them too?
            1. Cxnumx
              Cxnumx 19 January 2018 12: 52
              0
              Quotation: blooded man
              And what kind of weapons did the Cossacks have so that they could defeat the aborigines by orders of magnitude superior in quantity and fighting all their lives? That they were afraid of the beeps that the Cossacks had a maximum of several dozen or a couple of small guns?
              Those Cossacks were not trained in any military tactics; they are exactly the same in essence the Mongols, only Russians.

              ahhh ... uh ... are you serious? about the fact that the Cossack military experience was the same as that of the Mongols? it's like comparing the experience of our military and ... I don’t know the Yemenis for example. by count: Eramak’s example shows very clearly how to win with much less power, but correctly concentrating them in the right amount. the Germans, with their blitzkrieg, also demonstrated this perfectly. about weapons: scornful "beeps" scared so much against the background of bows and even crossbows that all Europe quickly armed themselves with them. and “a few dozen” is inspired by the thought that you sent hundreds and a half Cossacks to Siberia ... a maximum of two.
              Quotation: blooded man
              What about the Huns? A bunch of Cossacks conquered them too?

              you are an epic ignoramus. or troll. not the point is important. special for you: the Huns took on the sword the greatest empire - Rome. so, by the way.
              1. co-creator
                co-creator 19 January 2018 14: 02
                +2
                Quote: K0
                ahhh ... uh ... are you serious?

                Well, the topic seems to be serious, and not some kind of ho..hlo..shit..ch.
                Quote: K0
                about the fact that the Cossack military experience was the same as that of the Mongols? it's like comparing the experience of our military and ... I don’t know the Yemenis for example. by count: Eramak’s example shows very clearly how to win with much less power, but correctly concentrating them in the right amount.

                In fact, the Cossacks who came to Siberia were not professional military, Ordinary gang. Yes, they had their own tactics of warfare, but no more. The Mongols, too, were not boys, and constantly fought with neighboring tribes, the Chinese.
                Ermak instead of his team died if that, and Siberia was already conquered by the military sent by the king. After the first defeats, Kuchum gathered an army and won. In Siberia, the Mongols could not gather anyone in the winter because of the horses, and the Cossacks defeated everyone individually.
                Quote: K0
                the Germans, with their blitzkrieg, also demonstrated this very well.

                What have the Germans to do with it? Their army was no less than the Franco-English and Soviet.
                Quote: K0
                the scornful "beeps" scared so much against the background of bows and even crossbows that all Europe quickly armed with them. and “a few dozen” is inspired by the thought that you sent hundreds and a half Cossacks to Siberia ... a maximum of two.

                Kalmyks fought with bows already against Napoleon, and this scared the French more than guns.
                Vanguard units were approximately in such numbers. Only then did the main forces pull up. This is not about all Siberia, but specifically about Buryatia.
                Quote: K0
                you are an epic ignoramus. or troll. not the point is important. special for you: the Huns took on the sword the greatest empire - Rome. so, by the way.

                And what do you think was supposed to answer the question "Huns is also a myth"?
                The Huns were not savages who did not know that in winter they needed to feed horses. Moreover, the Huns had a numerical advantage, in contrast to the Cossacks. Moreover, they have been shaking the Roman Empire for many, many decades. The Cossacks, on the other hand, came in a small handful, gave luli and occupied the territory.
                1. Cxnumx
                  Cxnumx 19 January 2018 15: 25
                  0
                  Quotation: blooded man
                  In fact, the Cossacks who came to Siberia were not professional military, Ordinary gang. Yes, they had their own tactics of warfare, but no more. The Mongols, too, were not boys, and constantly fought with neighboring tribes, the Chinese.

                  if I don’t confuse, the Cossacks of that time are a priori military. and to call them unprofessional - that sounds interesting))) that is probably why they were akin to special forces at one time - sheer lovers ... they only know how to kill very well, and they need to gather an equal regular army against them)) and they had enough firearms, bows were not completely abandoned then, but their guns were not uncommon. Ermak’s cannons were also in the campaign. but interestingly:
                  "The" acquaintance "of Cossacks and local Tatars happened on the territory of the present Sverdlovsk region. Cossacks were fired from bows by their opponents, but repulsed the upcoming attack of the Tatar cavalry with guns, occupied the city of Chingi-tur in the present Tyumen region. In these places, the conquerors obtained jewelry and furs, participating in many fights along the way.
                  05.1582 a year at the mouth of the Tours, the Cossacks fought a battle with the troops of the six Tatar princes.
                  07.1585goda - the battle on Tobol.
                  July 21 - the battle at the Babasan yurts, where Yermak, with his cannons, stopped the horse army galloping at him with several thousand horsemen.
                  At the Long Yar, the Tatars again fired on the Cossacks.
                  August 14 - Battle of Karachin-town, where the Cossacks seized the rich treasury of Karachi Murza.
                  On November 4, Kuchum with an army of fifteen thousand set up an ambush near the Chuvash cape, with him were mercenary squads of Voguls and Ostyaks. At the crucial moment it turned out that the best troops of Kuchum went on a raid on the city of Perm. The mercenaries fled during the battle, and Kuchum was forced to retreat to the steppe.
                  11.1582 Ermak occupied the capital of the Khanate - the city of Kashlyk. "

                  and all this despite the fact that according to the most optimistic estimates of the Cossacks (and others) it was 1600, and according to the most modest 540. they absolutely did not know how to fight. yeah. mass took.
                  Quotation: blooded man
                  In Siberia, the Mongols could not gather anyone in the winter because of the horses and the Cossacks defeated everyone individually
                  very interesting ... if not for that "July 21 is the battle at the Babasan yurts, where Ermak, with his cannons, stopped the horse army galloping at him with several thousand horsemen."
                  even if divided by 10, it’s still several hundred cavalry. probably a special breed - ate bark from trees.
                  Quotation: blooded man
                  Kalmyks fought with bows already against Napoleon, and this scared the French more than guns.

                  scarecrow? and the result? blacks in Africa were also with bows. and the Indians. the result is one - all the bows were given by a firearm.
                  Quotation: blooded man
                  And what do you think was supposed to answer the question "Huns is also a myth"?

                  no, you should have explained to me how the steppe cavalry from Asia reached the forests of Europe to Rome without resting in the forests in the winter. in the same way as the "invented Mongols of Batu" reached Kiev and further.
                  This is the main question for all Fomenkovites, because he "mathematicians" have not yet "proved" the "non-existence" of the Huns.
                  1. co-creator
                    co-creator 20 January 2018 09: 25
                    +2
                    Quote: K0
                    if I don’t confuse, the Cossacks of that time are a priori military. and to call them unprofessional - that sounds interesting))) that is probably why they were akin to special forces at one time - sheer lovers ... they only know how to kill very well, and an equal regular army must be gathered against them))

                    Actually not about this conversation was originally. Cossacks, of course, are very powerful guys and I don’t argue with that.
                    Quote: K0
                    and all this despite the fact that according to the most optimistic estimates of the Cossacks (and others) it was 1600, and according to the most modest 540. they absolutely did not know how to fight. yeah. mass took.

                    LIKE HOW I wrote on the contrary that a small handful of Cossacks defeated an opponent who was an order of magnitude larger.
                    Quote: K0
                    even if divided by 10, it’s still several hundred cavalry. probably a special breed - ate bark from trees.

                    In the summer you can eat grass. can bark. What's the problem?
                    Quote: K0
                    "July 21 - the battle at the Babasan yurts, where Yermak, with his cannons, stopped the mounted army of several thousand horsemen galloping at him"

                    dispersed several thousand with one gun, well, let hundreds. The question is how these people were able to conquer half the world, I'm talking about the Mongol-Tatars?
                    Quote: K0
                    no, you should have explained to me how the steppe cavalry from Asia reached the forests of Europe to Rome without resting in the forests in the winter. in the same way as the "invented Mongols of Batu" reached Kiev and further.

                    I explain. Transitions. This was called the relocation of the people.
                    I have not seen a single Mongol in Kiev, and on the Adriatic too.

                    Quote: K0
                    This is the main question for all Fomenkovites, because he "mathematicians" have not yet "proved" the "non-existence" of the Huns.

                    Here it is to ask the Fomenkovites) By the way, he is an excellent mathematician, that no one could dispute.
                    So the Huns do not claim Mongol laurels. They quietly moved from Asia to Europe and there they became the ancestors of Europeans.
                    1. Cxnumx
                      Cxnumx 21 January 2018 12: 08
                      0
                      Quotation: blooded man
                      I explain. Transitions. This was called the relocation of the people.

                      those. during the resettlement of peoples, the cavalry is able to make huge transitions (including over hostile territories), but during conquests (which do not last 1 or 2 years, but over many years) cannot?
                      Quotation: blooded man
                      I have not seen a single Mongol in Kiev, and on the Adriatic too.

                      if you trust foreign sources with regard to the Huns, then why don't you trust them with regard to the Mongols, namely their invasion of eastern Europe? I, for example, have never seen a single Hun anywhere. as well as Scythian, Pecheneg, Polovtsian and many others. because they were defeated in these lands and assimilated by the peoples who defeated them and so on. Is it the fault of the Mongols that they have lands in which no one has assimilated them?
                      and based on your answers it turns out that your quote is:
                      Quotation: blooded man
                      Yes, who knows. In the 17th century, Cossacks came to Lake Baikal in the winter, and they won all the Mongols in short. Why? Yes, because the Cossacks could ride horses, but the Mongols did not. Well, a horse cannot work intensively on pasture.

                      incorrect because it turns out that
                      Quotation: blooded man
                      In the summer you can eat grass. can bark. What's the problem?
                      and conquer countries like other people, but the Tatar-Mongols cannot. for some reason.
      3. Net
        Net 20 January 2018 07: 39
        +2
        Even if he’s taken away, it’s not suitable for battle. As far as I remember, heavy horses were specially selected for the knights. Even in the pictures of Russian artists, mighty horses ("Three Heroes"). Such cavalry will easily trample the "Mongol donkeys". And these donkeys - the famous "Mongolian cavalry"?
    5. avt
      avt 18 January 2018 10: 29
      +6
      Quote: Net
      It is only unclear what the author writes about: about the Japanese, now about the Mongols, then about the Tibetans.

      Well, because you really need to
      Quote: kalibr
      LEARN, LEARN, AND LEARN as relevant as ever!

      To begin with, read the annals in which at least something left where this “Mongolian” Empire came from, rather than art films like Bodrov the Elder look. Then knowledge will come about the Uyghur empire led by “Presbyter John” - the Nestorian who did not leave an heir . In fact, Genghis carried out a change of dynasty. But you can continue to believe in the nonsense about how he whistled and hundreds of thousands of nomads fled from all over the steppe to whistle, declaring themselves to be Mongols.
      In this regard, the so-called palm tree, which had the appearance of a massive knife, on a long lance pole was used more widely.
      It’s a well-known type of weapon for hunting in Russia too, as a rule, double-edged with a cross-piece - staghorn.
      1. novel66
        novel66 18 January 2018 10: 51
        +4
        or maybe I was referring to quite a Japanese naginata? Karpini is the same nonsense
        1. avt
          avt 18 January 2018 12: 21
          +4
          Quote: novel xnumx
          Karpini is the same nonsense

          No. Karpini WAS writing there ... well, of course he was biased, but he didn’t lie as brazenly as his copywriters such as Matvey Prazhsky, De Robrooke’s intelligence was practically more interesting. But again, we read the translations in the editorial office of the issuing comrades, and as Eastern wisdom says, the water passing through several jugs ceases to be spring water. Learn by comparison.
    6. Cxnumx
      Cxnumx 18 January 2018 11: 37
      +2
      Quote: Net
      Mongolian horse at 1 meter high all these weapons will take away?

      typical "Fomenkovsky" refutation "... take a Mongolian horse 1,27 meters at the withers, and round up to 1 meter. smartly ©. if you grow 1,6 round up to 2 right away. and for clarity, put two sticks next to each other and see if this is a big difference of 30 cm or 1/3.
      Here is an example of a source of information on horses: https://zooclub.ru/horses/stepnoe_konevodstvo.sht
      ml
      1. co-creator
        co-creator 19 January 2018 04: 26
        +2
        Quote: K0
        typical "Fomenkovsky" refutation "... take a Mongolian horse 1,27 meters at the withers, and round up to 1 meter. smartly ©. if you grow 1,6 round up to 2 right away. and for clarity, put two sticks next to each other and see if this is a big difference of 30 cm or 1/3.

        meter or 1,27 what does this change in essence? Until now, the Mongols do not use their horses in winter since there is not enough pasture to roam the steppe. There are no additional horses to feed horses in the Mongol tradition, and why not.
        1. Cxnumx
          Cxnumx 21 January 2018 17: 28
          +1
          Quotation: blooded man
          meter or 1,27 what does this change in essence? Until now, the Mongols do not use their horses in winter since there is not enough pasture to roam the steppe. There are no additional horses to feed horses in the Mongol tradition, and why not.

          and as a matter of fact it changes dohr .. on, tk. a horse 1 m at the withers and 1,27 carry completely different loads. change your hackneyed record about winter, because in winter you can: 1) take along fodder grown in summer; 2) to take fodder in captured subordinate villages / towns of farmers.
          that's about agriculture, if you think that the Mongols (or nomads in general), like the Chukchi, did not know farming.
          http://asiarussia.ru/articles/307/
          and still do not forget about the tribute from the conquered settled peoples. or do you think their brains didn’t have enough to demand part of the tribute by the fact that in settled peoples there was plenty of food / grain?
    7. Anton Capucin
      Anton Capucin 18 January 2018 11: 45
      +3
      You apparently did not understand. The author says about the weapons of the Mongols, which they took from neighboring peoples. What surprises you is not clear. Yes, their horses were slightly larger than ponies, because they are hardy and not whimsical. And ponies for you to understand were used for a long time in the mines, for coal. And so a very strong and hardy horse.
    8. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 18 January 2018 19: 58
      +5
      Net "Mongolian horse at 1 meter high all these weapons will take away?
      Did the author want to say something? "
      You are more right than ever. There were no Mongols. They did not have horses either. They rode the dogs. These were the Taratararians. They were led by Adolf Hitler, Alexander Nevsky and Guy Julius Caesar, who is not a horse.
      1. co-creator
        co-creator 19 January 2018 04: 27
        +4
        No, the Nagaybaks and Kazakhs led them. Everyone knows that.
  2. XII Legion
    XII Legion 18 January 2018 06: 27
    23
    The Mongol Empire is a multinational state, one of the greatest empires of mankind.
    The weapons and equipment of her warriors were also complex.
    Interesting and visually clear
    Thank you!
    1. avt
      avt 18 January 2018 10: 34
      +2
      Quote: XII Legion
      The Mongol Empire is a multinational state, one of the greatest empires of mankind.

      But Gorelik disagrees with you! bully
      So, among the finds in the southeastern part of the country, spherical conical helmets with a high spire and iron masks, with strange hunch-faced faces and a characteristic drop-shaped eye section, wide eyebrows and mustaches, bent upwards, are known. Some researchers believed that they had an obviously fake character, but were not used in battle, others that they belonged to the soldiers of Ancient Russia. A.I. Soloviev notes that M.V. Gorelik still managed to prove that these helmets with masks are related to the defensive armament of the Mongols. The anthropological type depicted on the mask reflects the "ancient Altai ideal of the husband-hero", which "lasted in Asia, despite the change of peoples, languages ​​and races, from the XNUMXth century. BC e. by the XV century n e. ".
      Directly put on ,, Mongols "with flattened noses masks
      His opinion is interesting that in battle these masks made a heavy impression on the enemy. And not only with its “dead” metal face with brilliant lively eyes, but also with its alien anthropological type, which usually always looks menacing.
      Right the enemy looks and sees - they attack and flees in fear! bully And here's another - their warriors are already looking at their commander and out of fear, well, they have attacked from the rear, they are fleeing at the enemy’s pies! bully So according to Gorelik it will be more accurate.
    2. co-creator
      co-creator 19 January 2018 04: 35
      +3
      Quote: XII Legion
      The Mongol Empire is a multinational state, one of the greatest empires of mankind.

      This is just verbiage. The Russian Empire was also multinational, but up to the reforms of Milyutin, 90% of the army (soldier) was Russian. 10% accounted for irregular formations of Tatars, Bashkirs, Kalmyks and others, which were used essentially as mercenaries (they were paid money).
      You want to say that the Mongols were able to build a system and control a huge multinational army consisting of hundreds of tribes and dozens of peoples? I just wonder how they did it and why NOBODY could repeat it later having such experience.
      1. long in stock.
        long in stock. 19 January 2018 07: 50
        +1
        no, of course ... no one was direct ... the British empire did not exist ... and the Alexander the Great empire, too, was not ...
        1. Luga
          Luga 19 January 2018 10: 07
          +2
          Quote: Long in stock.
          no, of course ... no one was direct ... the British empire did not exist ... and the Alexander the Great empire, too, was not ...

          C'mon, there was also Tamerlane, the Ottoman Empire. Empires do not exist at all, unless, of course, the Russians create it. But then in this empire all people are Russians. There are no others.
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 19 January 2018 12: 31
            +2
            Quote: Luga
            C'mon, there was also Tamerlane, the Ottoman Empire.

            You want to seriously say that the Ottoman army at its very dawn was multinational and its skeleton consisted of a compote of different tribes?
        2. co-creator
          co-creator 19 January 2018 12: 27
          +2
          Quote: Long in stock.
          no, of course ... no one was direct ... the British empire did not exist ... and the Alexander the Great empire, too, was not ...

          The British served in the British Army. Yes, they had native armies, but again they fought with their people or neighbors in their lands. If Britain conquered another colony, then she did it with the help of the British, and did not carry a native from India, for example. The same goes for major wars. The British fought with Napoleon and in the Crimean company, and not the Indians with blacks.
          And here is Macedonian? )
          1. long in stock.
            long in stock. 19 January 2018 18: 10
            +1
            Canadians and New Zealanders and Australians served in the British Army. They were British subjects, but were they all British? unlikely. and da-Indian units fought in China during the Opium Wars. The law of military necessity-from where they brought it closer and dragged. The only immutable rule is that the indigenous units cannot be fought with whites so that wrong thoughts do not slip into the head. and that lasted until the 1st World War. in the Crimean campaign, the English did not need to drag troops from India - they had natives on their side and called them Turks ... by the way, the French dragged them .. and the Macedonian here is here-
            Quotation: blooded man
            You want to say that the Mongols were able to build a system and control a huge multinational army consisting of hundreds of tribes and dozens of peoples? I'm just wondering how they did it and why NOBODY could repeat it.
            .He did this to the Mongol. Or do you want to tell me that only those soldiers who came out of Macedonia with him reached India?
            1. co-creator
              co-creator 20 January 2018 09: 34
              +2
              and what is the difference between british canadian man and australian?

              Quote: Long in stock.
              da-indian units fought in china during the opium wars

              Opium wars were not waged by the state, but by a private company. There were at least ground battles there and again, mostly the British fought.
              Quote: Long in stock.
              the only immutable rule is that the indigenous units cannot be fought with the whites so that wrong thoughts do not crept into the head. and that lasted until the 1st World War.

              They would have been killed as puppies, therefore they were not sent to fight with the whites. In WWI, they just needed meat, and what color it no longer mattered.
              Quote: Long in stock.
              By the way the French dragged their ..

              where did they drag it?
              Quote: Long in stock.
              .He did this to the Mongol. Or do you want to tell me that only those soldiers who came out of Macedonia with him reached India?

              I want to say that there is no point in seriously discussing this topic. From the time of the Mongols, there is very little written material, but there is nothing to say about the times of Macedonian. The fact that he was defeated in India indicates that most of the army fled or betrayed him. Could the Greeks do this? No . So he had a lot of native parts that in the first standing battle just sent him to he ...
              1. long in stock.
                long in stock. 20 January 2018 16: 27
                0
                a Canadian and an Australian can be a British citizen without being a British .. like a Russian citizen can be named Deparderie .. the state waged wars of wars of war, read carefully. and there were enough battles on land. again, contradict, or kill like puppies and then you need meat .. swim in question and much .. but the most important thing is .... From the time of the Mongol, there is very little written material, but about the times of the Macedonian there’s nothing to say. did they exist?
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator 20 January 2018 16: 50
                  +2
                  Quote: Long in stock.
                  a Canadian and an Australian may be a British national without being British.

                  and who could they be afraid to ask? really natives or french?
                  Quote: Long in stock.
                  the opium wars were waged by the state, read carefully. and there were enough battles on land.

                  officially it was a private company and there were practically no battles on land there, the Chinese were driven there approximately as we were Asians in Central Asia
                  Quote: Long in stock.
                  the French dragged their zouaves to where you mentioned, near Sevastopol. and again contradict, or they killed like puppies and then you need meat .. swim in question and much

                  name the exact number of zouaves and in what battles they participated. Well, for example, the Malakhs, the Zuaves took the mound?
                  Quote: Long in stock.
                  and again, contradict, or killed as puppies and then you need meat .. swim in question and much ..

                  I’ll wait for a figure and see who is swimming)
                  Quote: Long in stock.
                  From the time of the Mongols, there is very little written material, but nothing can be said about the times of the Macedonian. Does the Mongols still exist?

                  no doubt existed and now exist. I never seem to have denied this.
                  1. long in stock.
                    long in stock. 20 January 2018 22: 33
                    +1
                    oh hard work is to educate .... well, let's begin ... and so canada. a former colony of France. and yet yes. many British nationals from there are French .. do you really not know? they still have 2 state English and French .. let's go further, the British Empire declared war on China and not the East India Company .. still you had to learn history in grade 8 .. In January 1840, speaking in a throne at the opening of Parliament, Queen Victoria approved the requirements and actions of C. Elliot. Palmerston was given the right to single-handedly resolve all political and military issues related to British policy towards China. In February 1840, a naval expedition was formed, led by the commander of the naval forces in India, Admiral J. Elliot (cousin of C. Elliot). UK requirements for China were set out in a note dated February 20, 1840, signed by Palmerston. It reported that the British government sent "naval and military forces to the shores of China, demanding from the emperor satisfaction and compensation for damage caused by the Chinese authorities to British citizens living in China, and for the insult caused by the same authorities to the British Queen." we move on .. zuavy. your way you thought the brilliant attack on Malakhov’s mound is oddly true .. yes 2 regiment of zuavs fought on a black river. in the battle of Alma and yes, on Malakhov’s mound .. even Louis Bussenard has such a book ..and now the main thing is that you yourself are not ashamed not to know this? that you are 10 years old ?? you can be offended by how much you fit, but you are not a literate person. completely .. it's very sad ..
                    1. co-creator
                      co-creator 20 January 2018 23: 37
                      +2
                      Quote: Long in stock.
                      The former colony of France. And yet, yes, many British nationals are Frenchmen from there .. don’t you know? They still have 2 official languages: English and French.

                      And you didn’t know. that the French in Canada until the end of WWII were second-class people? In order for the Frenchman to become an officer, one had to try very hard, and they trusted the rank and file as well as in blacks in the USA. Actually, therefore, the French in the army were very few.

                      Quote: Long in stock.
                      ..all you still had to study history in grade 8 ..

                      Like you, uh ...)) Yes, your true trade was already in the hands of the metropolis.
                      Quote: Long in stock.
                      .zuavy. your what you thought a brilliant attack on the Malakhov Kurgan strangely faithfully .. yes 2 regiment of zuavs fought on a black river. in the battle of Alma and yes on the Malakhov Kurgan

                      I asked you in Russian to write the number of zouaves. Apart from the French, no one noticed them there. The Russians took dozens of languages ​​and there was not a single zuava among them. Maybe of course they stormed something there, but at the Kalmyk level during the wars with Napoleon. Maybe the Kalmyks defeated Napoleon?
                      Quote: Long in stock.
                      and now the main thing is that you yourself are not ashamed not to know this? Are you 10 years old ??

                      you should be ashamed of ignorance of simple things about the French in Canada and an attempt to cheat with the Zouaves) And the scam is just outright) I was mistaken with China, but the essence of this has not changed a bit. The British fought and drove the Chinese as shekds. Are you by any chance 10 years old?
                      Quote: Long in stock.
                      you may be offended by how much you like, but you are not a competent person. completely .. it's very sad ..

                      Well, in fact you are more illiterate than me, and also a swindler))
                      1. long in stock.
                        long in stock. 21 January 2018 16: 37
                        0
                        in the first Chinas they drove. I didn’t say anywhere that it wasn’t. It’s out of your fantasies .. now about the scam .... you said that the British citizen is an Englishman .. got into a puddle and now why are you dragging citizens of 2 grades ... and where is the 2 grade? did you ask this question somewhere? you wag your tail ... now there are mythical zuavas ... that there weren’t them at first then they seemed to be in a microscopic amount .. so are you also a liar? after the fact, you completely managed to do it but admit it in no way .. by this traditional historians will always drive you into the shkonka-alas, you are just stupid. You are trying to expand their krugozor..vse right-fools rule easier ..
  3. Korsar4
    Korsar4 18 January 2018 07: 35
    +2
    Liked. Let the professionals argue about the details. Traditionally good and illustrations. And deviations in the text, such as "people with bird's eyes." This makes the popular article lively.

    One caused internal disagreement - a photograph of a horse from the Prague Zoo. It is clear that the Mongols’s question of horses is even painful here. Maybe they were like that. I do not know. But such a modern photograph is never a proof.
    1. kalibr
      18 January 2018 07: 41
      +2
      I could not go to Mongolia and take off their horses, not to mention the ancestors of their horses, not to mention what such a photo is really not proof. "This is how horses that lived in the steppes of Eurasia looked like ... for a long time! The bones in the burials of the Andronovites and the Srubnik say that they were like that. But they are not the ancestors of the Mongols. But spread widely throughout Eurasia. And with them, and low horses. And what was suitable for the “Andronovites” and “fellows” could well fit the Mongols.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 18 January 2018 07: 49
        +2
        Perhaps I can ask you for a photo of a modern Mongolian horse. But why?
        1. kalibr
          18 January 2018 08: 11
          +3
          Thanks! It would be interesting. But I'm afraid all the materials are already in the archive of the site, and it will be difficult to insert it there.
        2. Cxnumx
          Cxnumx 21 January 2018 17: 39
          0
          Quote: Korsar4
          Perhaps I can ask you for a photo of a modern Mongolian horse. But why?

          choose:
          https://yandex.ru/images/search?text=%D1%84%D0%BE
          %D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%84%D0%B8%D1%8E%
          20%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%B
          D%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B9%20%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B3%D0
          %BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9%20%D0%BB%
          D0%BE%D1%88%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8&stype=image&
          ; lr = 65 & noreask = 1 & source = wiz
      2. co-creator
        co-creator 19 January 2018 04: 37
        +2
        That on the Internet you can not find a photo of a horse in Mongolia itself)
        1. kalibr
          19 January 2018 08: 03
          0
          All photos on the Web usually belong to someone and there are conditions for their use. Therefore, it is better to use copyright ...
  4. parusnik
    parusnik 18 January 2018 07: 40
    +4
    Excellent article, visual ... Vyacheslav Olegovich, you have not convinced many .. I think so .. smile ..It will be interesting to read, the following comments ...
    1. kalibr
      18 January 2018 07: 53
      +7
      And I'm not going to convince anyone! Recently met a law student (correspondence student). He works by specialty in the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Information draws on YouTube. He knows everything! I ask: "Have you read PSRL?" No, why? And so on ... "Why did China rise?" They are hardworking ... USSR experience ... "What is REM?" I don’t know ... Such, unfortunately, are very many today. You see, I did not make any conclusions in the material at all. These are excerpts from ... primary sources + photos of artifacts. That is, it’s just an educational program. Perhaps someone will read the entire book recommended at the end of the article. That will be a plus, right? But no ... I still have already received my fee for the material and I read these books.
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 18 January 2018 07: 57
        +2
        Perhaps someone will read the entire book recommended at the end of the article.
        .. And maybe someone will not read ... smile You suggest a difficult way .. smile draw conclusions .. smile
        1. kalibr
          18 January 2018 08: 09
          +5
          Correctly. But the site is not a school or a university. This is a scattered information collector to meet the need to learn new things. Who cares - read. Who is "just interesting" and do not need to read. He has already received his!
          1. parusnik
            parusnik 18 January 2018 08: 14
            +4
            But the site is not a school or a university. This is a scattered information collector to meet the need to learn new things.
            ... I agree, but it’s easier to collect scattered information in the brain than to study it sequentially ...
            1. kalibr
              18 January 2018 08: 23
              +2
              That is why my materials consist of several parts and, if possible, cover the topic from different angles and in sufficient detail. And it is clear that consistently learning something is difficult. But then you do not need to write - "I see a shamrock from the movie, a helmet ... not real!" First ask, huh? Well, at least read the popular book Gorelik about Mongolian armor ... a person has been doing this for years and he dug himself, and analyzed the already relaxed. Also, Soloviev’s monograph ... Reasoning without knowledge is stupid, everyone will agree with this.
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 18 January 2018 07: 57
        +1
        But this is cynical. Although just any sensible article can illuminate the question - which books have not yet been read.
        1. kalibr
          18 January 2018 08: 07
          +4
          Cynical, but correct. No article is able to teach a person anything. She can only show him where to direct her interests, if he has them.
  5. soldier
    soldier 18 January 2018 08: 37
    18
    I fully support the author in his work on the reconstruction of the army of the Mongol Empire and wish him creative success in this and other areas.
    I personally would be very interested to read about attempts to invade Japan. Double typhoon - coincidence or fatum?)
    1. kalibr
      18 January 2018 08: 58
      +3
      I have about it in the book "Samurai". S. Turnbull has this in detail. But, I think that not only you will be interested in this topic. I’ll try to write about it in the coming month ...
      1. soldier
        soldier 18 January 2018 08: 59
        18
        Got it.
        Thank you!
  6. Aaleks1974
    Aaleks1974 18 January 2018 09: 18
    +2
    I’m wondering, but did we find something like this? Still at the office. 300 years of history, the Mongols wandered with us, should they at least leave something behind?
    1. kalibr
      18 January 2018 10: 08
      +2
      On the archeology of the Mongols, everything is in the book of Gorelik, there are a lot of sketches of exactly the finds. They are in the monograph of Khudyakov ...
    2. Lord_Raven
      Lord_Raven 18 January 2018 10: 23
      +2
      Quote: Aaleks1974
      I’m wondering, but did we find something like this? Still at the office. 300 years of history, the Mongols wandered with us, should they at least leave something behind?

      Of recent interesting finds are the results of excavations of the Zolotarevsky settlement in the Penza region, reflected both in articles and in documentaries. Links to them are on Wikipedia. And, in order not to get confused in the "alternative" versions, first of all pay attention to the work of archaeologist G. Belorybkin, who actually carried out excavations.
      1. kalibr
        18 January 2018 10: 31
        +2
        Yes, this is an excellent source, as well as his monograph on this topic.
        1. Streletskos
          Streletskos 18 January 2018 11: 55
          18
          I read Gorelik.
          Keep
          There are enough digs
  7. Curious
    Curious 18 January 2018 09: 29
    +8
    "Mongolian helmet with headphones from the Museum of the Mongolian invasion of Genko, Japan. Weight 2 kg. "
    Oh, our sins are grave. It is not given to you, Vyacheslav Olegovich, Japan, resists with true samurai perseverance.
    Genko in Japanese, an invasion. And the museum of this genco is located in the city of Fukuoka. There is such a city in Japan.
    Therefore, the signature should look like "Mongolian helmet with headphones from the Genko Museum, Fukuoka, Japan. Weight 2 kg. The origin of the exhibit is unknown."
    1. kalibr
      18 January 2018 09: 47
      +5
      Thanks! But I do not know Japanese, so such an inaccuracy is excusable.
  8. Molot1979
    Molot1979 18 January 2018 09: 52
    +1
    And who will tell you what it is, like a flying projectile, in the first Japanese miniature? It’s flying clearly from the Japanese side towards the Mongols and falling apart on the fly, but inside the type of fire?
    1. kalibr
      18 January 2018 10: 07
      +2
      This is the bomb that the Mongols threw at the Japanese. Just the tail of fire the other way.
    2. Curious
      Curious 18 January 2018 10: 27
      +7
      This is the subject of a universal dispute ... between the supporters and opponents of such an event as the invasion of the Mongols in Japan - an explosive grenade.
      Supporters of the invasion just believe that it flies from the Mongols, and fragments fly towards the Japanese. The fact that the Mongols borrowed from the Chinese and used hand and siege shells filled with gunpowder or other combustible materials seems to have never been denied.
      Their opponents laugh first and say that the grenade flies from the Japanese, which immediately casts doubt on the authenticity of the source, since explosive grenades became known to the Japanese no earlier than the XNUMXth century.
      And throw the grenade from side to side.
      1. Mikado
        Mikado 18 January 2018 13: 47
        +3
        Their opponents laugh first and say that the grenade flies from the Japanese, which immediately casts doubt on the authenticity of the source, since explosive grenades became known to the Japanese no earlier than the XNUMXth century.

        Turnbull wrote that catapults were used during the “Onin War” (15th century). The only thing, I don’t know, was the explosive bombs or not. Maybe incendiary?
  9. sivuch
    sivuch 18 January 2018 10: 28
    +3
    Why are swords only slightly curved? NYA, the huldu swords were quite straightforward
  10. Seraphimamur
    Seraphimamur 18 January 2018 10: 53
    +2
    Some kind of intelligible article. The actual material that is presented directly indicates non-Mongolian origin. And the one that is associated with Japan. But it would be interesting and what the weapons of the Golden Horde warriors represented under the “yoke” of which Russia “moaned” for 300 years and how it was better than Russian.
    1. kalibr
      18 January 2018 11: 16
      +3
      Yes, nothing was special.
  11. Yura Yakovlev
    Yura Yakovlev 18 January 2018 12: 09
    +5
    "Such armor made of tough materials, the Mongol warriors called" Huyag "and" Hudesyut Hudeshut. "
    This reminded me of a joke about how a man in a trade union committee asked for a ticket to a sanatorium or rest house.
    "Give me a ticket to a sanatorium, at worst to a holiday home"
    "There are no tickets to the sanatorium, but there is nothing to do in the rest house with a bad ending")))
  12. Varyag77
    Varyag77 18 January 2018 14: 46
    +6
    How amazing. We saw the leather and bone armor of the Mongols. It remains to see a wooden sword and a bone mace. We continue to believe in the shakers of the universe and the 300 years yoke in Russia. Og.
    So where is the heavy cavalry of the Mongols? Where is the iron then? Where is the steel? How about the blacksmithing of the ancient Mongols? Is everything cool?
    Apparently all the iron armor went into the golden horde to fight the terrible Uruses. The rest were content with skin and bones.
    Delirium and only.
    And horses that really don’t know how to ride. Here they are the legendary conquerors of the universe. On a kurguzu worthless horse in crappy leather armor with a shield of branches. Let's go and bend half the world.
    Right? Not fiction? Well then of course. ;)
    1. Artek
      Artek 18 January 2018 16: 12
      +5
      Quote: Varyag77
      So where is the heavy cavalry of the Mongols? Where is the iron then? Where is the steel? How about the blacksmithing of the ancient Mongols? Is everything cool?

      if you need them, both the Mongolian tanks and the Mongolian blasters will find and then they will find “lists” with pictures, then there are problems.
    2. Dimachrus
      Dimachrus 18 January 2018 16: 40
      +2
      “Children (both boys and girls) from 5 to 13 years of age are selected to ride horses, and they train them several months before the races. Although the art of caring for horses is important for the home, it’s the speed and endurance of the horses that are tested in the competition”
      An excerpt from the unpopular pedagogy ;-) about the national holiday with the struggle of horse racing and archery
      https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Надом
      It is very interesting, these are the descendants of those horses on which the Mongols conquered half the world?
      It is also very interesting to know - did the blacksmithing technology of those times remain? How did they develop further, and even then, where did the resources for the production of iron weapons for such an impressive army come from? Or were there just trophies? It is also not entirely clear why, in the presence of a rather extensive arsenal of weapons made of iron, armor is mainly leather and bone?
      Well, well - they gathered an army of innumerable (say) in the Mongolian and adjacent steppes, but who did this army provide materially — weapons and equipment, food, horse feed, and so on?
      Maybe of course I don’t understand something, but I think it’s quite costly to conduct military operations on such a vast territory and there should have been some evidence of colossal activity to support the Mongolian army from the technologies that arose then to archaeological evidence - for example, the same blacksmith workshops, places of extraction of fuel and raw materials for the production and processing of iron for military purposes
      1. Severomor
        Severomor 18 January 2018 17: 38
        +2
        Quote: Dimachrus
        but who all the same provided this army financially - weapons and equipment, food, horse feed, and so on?

        Here, once again, everything is simple. Mongolian horses provide themselves with food.
        You shit. Have you heard? Such horses go slowly, hoofs of snow are picked and eaten. 4-5 km per day, not more. On riverbeds, and in flood meadows.
        Yeah, so for sure - along the riverbeds of the middle lane, in winter (taiga zone))))).
        The army was not big. 300 is probably a bit much (hi Janu !!!!). Thousands were 000. Probably heavily armed enough. Yes, each has two clockwork horses. Total ... (hell, this Total receives the most (s)))) - 30 horses. Naturally without a wagon train. The Mongols did not have a convoy. What for? All with you))).
        If the riverbed allows, such a huge army is stretched to: 90000/5 (horses in a row) * 3 meters (the length of a cat. Takes a horse) = 54000m. (54 km.).
        Yes, still heavy artillery. Famous stone-throwers and other siege weapons. The convoy wasn’t; prisoners, respectively, were not taken. But there were famous Chinese craftsmen who collected these miracle machines from the winter forest of Vladimir-Suzdal land. Good cars turned out. Then they were thrown out and at the next siege - over a new one.
        They also dug the ground (again in winter), mined rocket-throwing shells, preferably of one caliber, otherwise the sight will go astray.
        1. Dimachrus
          Dimachrus 18 January 2018 19: 08
          +1
          About shells for stone throwers - excellently written! ))))
          Only there is one “BUT” - the Mongolian shoes were with their toes bent up so that Mother Earth could not be picked up inadvertently ;-) And since they didn’t take prisoners, the famous Chinese master-shellers remained))))
          1. Severomor
            Severomor 18 January 2018 20: 43
            +1
            Quote: Dimachrus
            About shells for stone throwers - excellently written! ))))

            And about the horses, what? Poorly? ))))) Good luck
    3. albert
      albert 18 January 2018 17: 45
      +3
      The main reason for the successful conquest of Rus by the Mongols was the feud of the Russian princes, and not the strength of the Mongol army.
  13. Begemot
    Begemot 18 January 2018 16: 46
    +4
    I was once in the city of Glazov, in the north of Udmurtia, there is a museum of the fortress Idnakar, 9-13 century, for good everything was done, assembled with love. The first thing I rushed to consider - metal products and a furnace for smelting metal - is a professional interest. When the guide began to tell that iron was smelted in this furnace, which was then used on weapons: swords, arrowheads and spears, it was necessary to object that it was almost impossible to obtain iron suitable for making weapons on the presented sample of the furnace, maximum copper. What a run over me was: that I don’t understand, I don’t know, and that this is the topic of a heap of dissertations by scientists - historians.
    But this is not about that: metallurgy is the technology of settled peoples; nomadic tribes did not have furnaces or forges; by definition, they could not be. You can’t take the furnace with you, much less the forge. Where did the people called the Mongols get enough metal weapons and armor, while the weapons and armor had the appearance that was typical of these so-called Mongols, different from the others, which is possible only with mass production, impossible in nomadic conditions? So far, there will not be a clear answer to such and a host of other questions, without references to Chinese sources that carefully corresponded throughout China every time the next dynasty came into power, it will be difficult to believe the existence of a canonical version of TMI. Most likely, there is a catch in terminology. The Mongols in the TMI version are not the people whose descendants live in the MPR today, but completely different people who lived much west of Khalkhin Gola and Ulan Bator. IMHO.
    1. Severomor
      Severomor 18 January 2018 17: 55
      +1
      Quote: Begemot
      metallurgy - technology of settled peoples


      There are such things as a saw (something to saw along the trunk), you can also cross with an ax and the greatest invention is a file.
      I climbed to many sites and watched many forums. If they began to forge the saw at some stage and it can be assumed that it was in very ancient times, then when I read about the ancient copper file with diamond impregnations, it became sad.
      I’m not talking about one-time crafts, but about the industrial scale - making ships, arming the army, etc.
      1. Begemot
        Begemot 19 January 2018 09: 26
        +2
        Well, about the ships in the steppes of Mongolia - this is strong, I already choked on the awareness of my ignorance, as for drinking - read something at your leisure. The first saw was from the jaw of an animal, then from a stone, and in the form in which it is shown in a movie about antiquity, it recently appeared. The boards were made by splitting the logs along and then scraping them. I myself saw how they still do it in places where there are no sawmills and roads.
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 19 January 2018 09: 35
          +1
          And the saw was much worse than an ax. Good carpenters do not respect the saw.
        2. Severomor
          Severomor 19 January 2018 10: 07
          +1
          Quote: Begemot
          The boards were made by splitting the logs along and then scraping them.

          That's right - one tree - one board)))
          Quote: Begemot
          as for drinking, read something at your leisure. The first saw was from the jaw of an animal, then from a stone, and in the form in which it is shown in a movie about antiquity, it recently appeared.

          St. Petersburg, a lot of revised material - and about saws, and about files, and about anvils - this is the manufacturing process.
          Quote: Begemot
          Well, about ships in the steppes of Mongolia - it’s strong,

          Why don’t you know about the Mongol fleet? )))) So by the way I had to about mass production. Good luck
          1. Begemot
            Begemot 19 January 2018 10: 46
            +2
            That's right - one tree - one board)))
            come on, !
            you won’t get enough woods, you even saw a reconstruction of the process somewhere, google about the ancient Slavic boat in Germany, there they cut 10-12 boards from one log
            1. Severomor
              Severomor 19 January 2018 11: 10
              +1
              Quote: Begemot
              you won’t get enough woods

              You are right, two log boards
              V. I. Dahl describes the manufacturing process of boards as follows: “the old people didn’t saw the boards, but chopped the log in half and cut it out from the half on the board: such hewn boards, straight in layers, stronger than sawn and less warped; later, sawn boards began to be called cramped timber and tesen. In forest places, in the wilderness, where there are no longitudinal saws, peasants are still more likely to cover the floor and ceiling with scaffolds. ”
              Separately, we note that in the description of V.I. Dahl it is said about getting only two boards from the trunk and about their high quality compared to sawn.
              And more:
              “Russia does not know trident or carpentry saws and because of this there is an incredible waste of time. In other countries, people cut boards with saws - either water or hand, but here the boards are riddled with axes, and then unsuitable. Every year throughout the kingdom, a myriad of planks are made and, to extrude them, they spend immensely a lot of labor and time. I think that as many boards as a hundred slaves were slaughtered with axes in a month, twenty slaves could be cut with saws, and the boards would be much smoother.
              On the other hand: from one thick log with an ax you barely get one or two boards and a lot of wood will be wasted for nothing. A saw can cut any number of boards, thin or thick, depending on the thickness of the log, and nothing will go to chips. So when working with an ax, half of the forest or 50 logs from a hundred for nothing are transferred to chips, and when working with a saw, everything is good.
              I did not see chisels and planers convenient in Russia, but carpenters who want to do something beautiful, they are very necessary and help them save a lot of time. I saw how they build a house for half a year, which the same workers could easily put up and finish in two months, if there were convenient axes and saws, and chisels, and other tools ”(Krizhanich, 1859. P. 51).
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 19 January 2018 12: 00
                +2
                Dahl is undoubtedly an outstanding philologist, but there is a nuance .... In the carpentry business he did not understand nifig! Products from ashlar wood are much longer than sawn ones, because when working with an ax and a plow, the wood fibers are jammed, clogging the channels of moisture and fungus. When sawing, on the contrary, the fibers break up and the opponents, houses cut down by an ax stand for centuries, and logs from calibrated logs begin to “blossom” after 5 years, despite the chemistry swollen in them.
                1. Severomor
                  Severomor 19 January 2018 12: 35
                  0
                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  Products from ashlar wood are much longer than sawn ones,

                  but was it said the opposite ?????
                  .... squeezed out of a half on a board: such hewn boards, straight in layers, stronger than sawn and less warped;

                  their high quality compared to sawn ones.
                2. long in stock.
                  long in stock. 19 January 2018 18: 14
                  +1
                  they and the costs are great .. it's like now, everyone knows that wooden furniture is much better than from chipboard. but not many can afford it ..
    2. long in stock.
      long in stock. 18 January 2018 18: 02
      +4
      so everything is of course great ... but .... it means that the nomads cannot have metallurgy ... it seems like the nomads live next to us, the same Kazakhs of the Kyrgyz and others. How did they survive to this day, not having metallurgy. And yes, the same Huns are nomads ... which didn’t stop them from passing the line how many kilometers the most powerful European state of that time was to carry. And all this without metallurgy and even more so you can’t take the forge with you. I don’t know what kind of metallurgy you are, but you need to be able to think then ..
      1. Dimachrus
        Dimachrus 18 January 2018 19: 17
        +1
        The Kazakhs and others are not credited with conquering half the world for the Kazakhs, and the Mongolian weapons seem more or less the same type (curved sabers, for example), which is possible without mass production
        1. long in stock.
          long in stock. 18 January 2018 23: 55
          +1
          But what's the problem? China is captured. Central Asia captured. What are the problems with the organization of production?
      2. Begemot
        Begemot 19 January 2018 08: 53
        +4
        Great metallurgist and thinker.
        In fact, the Kyrgyz and Kazakhs will probably be offended, they lived on the Silk Road and around them there were completely developed civilizations in antiquity. As for survival, that is, in different tropical zones and in Africa, and in Amazon and Oceania, tribes that did not hear about iron, but somehow survived, the peoples of the Far North, again, besides 200 meteorite iron, did not see anything else years ago, yes and in general, mankind somehow survived until the first ingot of cries was received. Regarding the need to think - I agree. In order to declare that this helmet, sword, arrow, armor belonged to the Mongol or Kyrgyz war, these objects must have common features, repeated in thousands and thousands of copies. Maybe I don’t know, maybe GOST for weapons and protective equipment was sent via endless Mongolian steppes by email, but at the same time, GPS coordinates of mobile metallurgical enterprises with a schedule of their movement were hung on all sites so that suppliers of ore, coal, customers every day knew exactly where to lead the raw materials and where to buy the final product, It was separately indicated: where are the open-hearth furnaces, where are the blast furnaces, where is the foundry, and where is the blacksmith, so that there is no confusion in the technological chain. To think is a great skill, the only thing I agree with. As for metallurgy - I won’t even ask about the iron-carbon diagram, I think it makes no sense, but about how to melt at least black cast iron on charcoal, what dimensions, thermal conductivity and other indicators should the furnace and all other equipment have, in which In the ratio, coal and the original material must be laid in order to heat to the desired temperature and the required amount of carbon is included in the alloy. Unlike history, metallurgy is a rigorous science, not a collection of speculation and speculation.
        1. long in stock.
          long in stock. 19 January 2018 18: 25
          +1
          rzhachno .. here only you deviated from the main thing — they lived along the Silk Road and grew into very large peoples. your examples of tribes who did not know metallurgy in Africa and Oceania are very revealing — these peoples remained in scanty numbers. Now about coordinates and navigators. you won’t even believe it, but people for much longer than the Mongols managed to trade and change ... and the merchants clearly knew where and when to carry something .. so think this is a very right thing ... imagine, a medieval blacksmith had no idea about the iron diagram carbon. he even has a thermome there wasn’t ...... did everything by eye and intuition. and still managed to make iron and forge different cool things from it .. but after all, according to your words, it wouldn’t work out .. so now you don’t looking at your knowledge, it won’t work out. and it will work out .. will you come out much worse than a medieval blacksmith? and yes, remember, with manual labor the same things will never work. they will always be different .... I have a feeling that I’m talking to a person who did not work a day ...
          1. Begemot
            Begemot 23 January 2018 14: 39
            +1
            a deceptive feeling, well, for "deep thinkers" erroneous conclusions are the norm.
            For 40 years of work I have seen enough of such. Start with simple observations, for example, why mass production is always cheaper than piece work, then learn to draw more complex conclusions. And most importantly, correlate reality and fiction, the latter is superfluous.
    3. Curious
      Curious 18 January 2018 18: 03
      +7
      "... forge, you can’t take it with you."
      And who told you about this?

      Camp forge of the beginning of the XIX century. It was used in the Russian army for minor repairs and the manufacture of simple devices in field conditions. Served her blacksmith and two artisans. They repaired wheels, axles, carriages, charging boxes, wagons, made nails, wedges, horseshoes. The horn, furs, and lever were mounted on a machine with two wheels. Charcoal (birch) coal in the furnace was inflated using bellows driven by a lever. To facilitate work, a counterweight, an empty mortar bomb, was attached to the end of the lever. Anvil and blacksmith tools were transported in a special truck, and charcoal stocks were transported in another truck. One forge was attached to 36-48 guns.
      If you think that blacksmith tools have changed dramatically from the XNUMXth to the XNUMXth century, then everything is just the opposite.
      As you can see, you can carry a forge with you.
      1. Dimachrus
        Dimachrus 18 January 2018 19: 13
        +2
        Oh well!
        Did you find anything like this precisely with the Mongols?
        Well, at least remotely resembling a forge? (not necessarily hiking - in general)
        1. kalibr
          18 January 2018 20: 52
          +2
          Why do you need a forge when they find arrowheads, details of armor, etc. Characteristic, in burials ... This is described in detail in the monographs of Khudyakov and Sokolov. But ... "This one also did not read the novel!"
      2. Severomor
        Severomor 18 January 2018 20: 33
        +3
        Quote: Curious
        As you can see, you can carry a forge with you.

        So here you yourself answer the question, what
        metallurgy - technology of settled peoples

        We have - a regular army, and even the 19th century. A soldier (or who is there in rank?) Who is a blacksmith, trained in skill not in the service. Those. hereditary blacksmith drafted into the army. Roaming a lot you won’t infuse))))). By the way ..... and when did the anvils appear? and where are they? Somebody knows? Until the 16th century
        1. kalibr
          18 January 2018 21: 10
          +4
          Do you need an anvil? There you are! From the National Historical Museum of Mongolia ...
          1. Begemot
            Begemot 19 January 2018 08: 54
            +2
            My wife somehow brought a tie from Japan, so it turned out to be Chinese.
            1. kalibr
              19 January 2018 11: 11
              +1
              Yes, but you got a tie !!! The Mongols did not have forges, right? There was no metal, right? But did they get “ties,” that is, arrowheads, clubs, sabers, plates of armor? Received ... what else is needed? Where from? And from China!
              1. Net
                Net 19 January 2018 14: 19
                +3
                Maces? At the tribe called now "Mongols"? You accidentally half the planet was not mistaken? "Mongols" are mainly cavalry, the names of swords and spears I see in their dictionary, but maces ... no. The Mongols do not have such weapons; they do not need light cavalry.
                1. kalibr
                  19 January 2018 17: 20
                  +1
                  But in the burials they are also found in drawings depicting the Mongol warriors.
          2. Net
            Net 19 January 2018 14: 15
            +2
            Wow, applaud! Have you already discovered a museum of Mongolia on my advice? Progress! And what age is this product? Rust is not visible. )))
            1. kalibr
              19 January 2018 17: 21
              0
              So on Japanese swords with accurate dating it is also not ...
        2. Curious
          Curious 18 January 2018 22: 42
          +1
          Severomor, you do not wag like a bat in flight. The question was whether it was possible to carry a forge. It turns out you can. Next, open the first issue of the journal "Russian Archeology" for 2009 or "News of Altai State University" N4-2 for 2008, or etc. etc. Although for such a major historian as you, these, of course, are non-authoritative publications.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 18 January 2018 23: 26
            +6
            To be honest, what for carry it? It makes sense to carry only a blacksmith tool, well, maximum, fur. An adobe furnace is made on the spot, fuel is heaps, own horses are produced. The conditions are sufficient for the repair of metal products.
            1. Begemot
              Begemot 19 January 2018 09: 14
              +3
              fuel - heaps, own horses produce.
              Man, on a dung, a seagull, though with a spare, can be brewed, but to melt the iron - here you need a coal, moreover, preferably with blowing.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 19 January 2018 09: 28
                +1
                It was about blacksmithing, not metallurgy. Do you catch the difference?
          2. Severomor
            Severomor 18 January 2018 23: 28
            0
            Quote: Curious
            The question was whether it was possible to carry a forge. It turns out you can.

            Have I denied it somewhere? Of course you can, not even be doubted. And why did they get that I'm a major historian ??? I have no historical background.
            1. Curious
              Curious 19 January 2018 00: 39
              +3
              But do not ascribe to me what I did not say. In my commentary it is written for the Hippo that the forge is nevertheless transportable. And here you are with thoughts that "metallurgy is for settled peoples." I don’t have a hint of it. I wrote to you, where you can read about the metallurgy of nomads, but if you have forums and Wikis as a source of knowledge, I pass.
              As for historical education ... 99.99% do not have it here. But every second imagines himself as such and is ready to make epoch-making changes in historical science.
              1. Begemot
                Begemot 19 January 2018 08: 20
                +3
                I will tell you a secret, a mobile forge is another thing, a hundred years after the sample you presented, a metalworking workshop was built in general. There’s not just a forge there - turning, milling, gear-cutting, grinding and welding. And all by itself, even without a horse rides. In the ancient Mongolian 600 manuscripts hundreds of years ago, they peeped and licked. Did they write with their eyes open? they themselves read what they wrote, in the 19 century this design was created.
  14. Kashchenko
    Kashchenko 18 January 2018 19: 14
    +2
    What an article, that most of the comments cause only a smile .. In fact, we can say: about nothing .. Again, advice to authors writing articles on similar topics (Mongols, Middle Europe, Huns .., etc. etc. ), as well as to commentators: refer to normal sources. A lot of information is literally under your feet, and it’s almost free.
    1. Curious
      Curious 18 January 2018 20: 10
      +6
      Did you randomly choose a nickname, or is it a hint?
      1. long in stock.
        long in stock. 19 January 2018 00: 02
        +2
        this is a statement of fact ... we carefully look at our feet ... do not look up at the orderlies
    2. Cat
      Cat 18 January 2018 20: 14
      +5
      Quote: Kashchenko
      What an article, that most of the comments cause only a smile ..

      After reading the comment flinched in anticipation of an insight from above!
      In fact, we can say: about nothing .. Again, advice to authors writing articles on similar topics (Mongols, Middle Europe, Huns, etc., etc., etc.), as well as commentators: refer to normal sources.

      Well, we understood this. Author - feces, article - feces, comments - feces, We all - feces. All that remains is to read Mr. Kashchenko's little things!
      A lot of information is right under your feet,

      Looked at your feet? Did you see a cat? Kicked the cat? Is the cat gone? Remained the mother-in-law's palace? Illumination did not come, the spouse came "crushed" for the cat.
      and almost free infa.

      Properly got the palace as a dowry with his wife, almost for free! I pick the toe of the palass. The cat helps him to tear his claws. Illumination does not come out!
      Enough to retype any nonsense and carry the same nonsense in comments ..

      We looked at the cat under the palace, found one ruble. It’s definitely not enough for visskas.
      From myself I will add. You are very informative!

      Sometimes it seems to me, but if it seems it is necessary to be baptized. So I’ll say rudely but essentially! I’ll teach my cat to be baptized with all four paws before, how do you poorly reveal the truth to us? Only trouble is that your truth, on the floor, and even free, is needed only by you ...............
      And if you want to share it with us, then we are waiting for your article on VO!
    3. Severomor
      Severomor 18 January 2018 20: 41
      +4
      Quote: Kashchenko
      Enough to retype any nonsense and carry the same nonsense in comments ..

      Man, didn’t you understand for the Reds or for the Whites ....... ugh for the classics or Fomenko’s theory?
      I feel there will be a unification of the unified and you will be beaten by the combined forces of Fomenko-classical history .....)))))))
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 18 January 2018 22: 47
        +1
        Quote: Severomor
        I feel there will be a unification of the unified and you will be beaten by the combined forces of Fomenko-classical history .....)))))))

        We will be! Moreover, he is Kashchenko.
  15. kalibr
    18 January 2018 19: 21
    +2
    Quote: Kashchenko
    You have a lot of info right under your feet, and almost free info

    Share, that would be interesting. In fact, at the end of the article there are references to the literature. What can you offer? So far, all of the above are empty words.
    1. Cat
      Cat 18 January 2018 20: 30
      +5
      Vyacheslav Olegovich You are unfair to Kashchenko, he appointed you - feces from your miserable height, your article - feces, All of us members of the forum - feces, our comments too - feces. So you can safely add “4 cal” to the rank of associate professor, but we only to the name “2 cal” !!!
      The theme of the work is relevant, there is scientific novelty. The most important thing is that everything is exclusively justified, with reference to sources, footnotes, applications, and used literature. Particularly struck by the amount of scientific work - at least 300 typewritten sheets, almost a dissertation.
      And you are empty words!
      After studying his work, the cat and I found one ruble! Oh you ......
      1. kalibr
        18 January 2018 20: 42
        +2
        Yeah, where am I miserable ...
        1. Cat
          Cat 19 January 2018 04: 36
          +1
          Do not be discouraged Vyacheslav Olegovich, to all of us.
  16. Varyag77
    Varyag77 18 January 2018 20: 39
    +3
    Quote: albert
    The main reason for the successful conquest of Rus by the Mongols was the feud of the Russian princes, and not the strength of the Mongol army.

    The main reason was the successful rewriting of history for the sake of the pro-Western clan. The beginning was laid under Elena Glinsky, finally completed under the Romanovs. To the question of why, I answer in order to justify my claims to the throne, and that this pro-Western part of the elite would not be associated with the invaders. They came up with the Mongols. And I am more and more inclined that these same Mongols were written off from the Huns. And they covered up the civil war. The question, of course, is in determining the parties, who is behind whom, but most likely it was the civil war that caused such difficult 13-14 centuries. Well, races participated in it, as the Russians, and most likely the Poles, Lithuania and maybe the Ugrians, well, apparently, the peoples of the Great Steppe. that's all. Simply. Is logical. Realistic But some kind of Mongol-Tatars is just natural fiction.
    1. kalibr
      18 January 2018 20: 49
      +3
      But did Plano Carpini and others write with him in whose interests? Really shocked the Russian princes in their civil war? And in the battle of Legnica and other battles in Europe, who fought with whom? Also Russian ... And who, when and where rewrote this story is unclear. And why, the main thing. It was the right of the strong, and some monks with manuscripts there were of no interest to anyone. Before Peter there were no pro-Western clans. You read PSRL, read Klyuchevsky, Mavrodin, Rybakov. Why are you all inclined to ignorance?
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 18 January 2018 23: 02
        +6
        Vyacheslav Olegovich, evaluate the satire of the situation. The Japanese acknowledge the attempted invasion of the Mongols, the Chinese acknowledge the conquest of China by the Mongols, the Koreans, more than ever since 1949, are united on this issue, Central Asians cannot even conceive of their history without the Mongols. And only a couple of thousand bitten Fomenko Proto-Slavs consider this the machinations of the Vatican!
        1. kalibr
          19 January 2018 07: 48
          +1
          And these are the consequences of the Soviet era. Then they deceived, it means now they are deceiving everything in everything. But they themselves read, compare ... Well ... why ?! The truth is revealed to me psychic. I have not read it, but I condemn it!
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 19 January 2018 12: 57
            +2
            Very funny . Historians have been cheating, cheating and will always cheat. Just read about WWII.
            Quote: kalibr
            But read, compare yourself .. Well ... why ?! The truth is revealed to me psychic. I have not read it, but I condemn it!

            The same text and the same facts based on a written source can be understood differently depending on one's own outlook on life. The truth can only be where the signature, seal and official government papers and then not always.
            1. kalibr
              19 January 2018 17: 17
              0
              Have you ever been inside an archive (at least regional)? Well, with an excursion there ... we should go. A very instructive sight.
              1. co-creator
                co-creator 20 January 2018 09: 40
                +1
                It was. But I don’t understand what you mean by that.
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 18 January 2018 21: 32
      +5
      Well, at least there were Huns! Glory to you, Lord! Pamper us sinners, sometimes ...
      1. long in stock.
        long in stock. 19 January 2018 00: 07
        +4
        do not flatter yourself .. as you know the Huns spoke Sanskrit. So who were they? right by the arias ... and who is the arias? Russes .. well which Etruscans they are the Mongols ....
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 19 January 2018 01: 07
          +4
          I have already become entangled in all these apocryphal heresiarchs of history. What is most interesting, in the absence of supporters of an orthodox historical version, the "obsessed" begin to eat each other stubbornly.
          1. Dimmih
            Dimmih 19 January 2018 05: 23
            +1
            Quote: "Well, races participated in it, as well as the Russians, and most likely the Poles, Lithuania and maybe the Ugrians, well, apparently, the peoples of the Great Steppe. That's all." This inscription I suggest that you carve or write over the doors of your apartment so that everyone passing by can see that the master of the living word lives here. It’s necessary to spew out such a set of words, they racially participated ..... Well, an expert, well, an enchantress!
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 19 January 2018 08: 26
              0
              The author of the quotation did not confuse the hour ?!
              1. Dimmih
                Dimmih 19 January 2018 10: 18
                +1
                And here he is, looking closer to the end: Varyag77 Yesterday, 20:39
                Quote: albert
                The main reason for the successful conquest of Rus by the Mongols was the feud of the Russian princes, and not the strength of the Mongol army.
                The main reason was the successful rewriting of history for the sake of the pro-Western clan. The beginning was laid under Elena Glinsky, finally completed under the Romanovs. To the question of why, I answer in order to justify my claims to the throne, and that this pro-Western part of the elite would not be associated with the invaders. They came up with the Mongols. And I am more and more inclined that these same Mongols were written off from the Huns. And they covered up the civil war. The question, of course, is in determining the parties, who is behind whom, but most likely it was the civil war that caused such difficult 13-14 centuries. Well, races participated in it, as the Russians, and most likely the Poles, Lithuania and maybe the Ugrians, well, apparently, the peoples of the Great Steppe. that's all. Simply. Is logical. Realistic But some kind of Mongol-Tatars is just natural fiction.
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 19 January 2018 10: 53
                  +1
                  And I, by a sinful thing, thought that you were offering my apartment wink It is of course removable, but I did the repair myself in it, sadness would be crying
                  1. Dimmih
                    Dimmih 19 January 2018 11: 35
                    +3
                    It's okay, this is the end of the week, fatigue affects everyone else, except for the Vedic Beloseromaline Rusoarias with the correct genocode, fashioned from a fresh mammoth litter 4000000 years ago by Veles himself. Fatigue is unknown to them, they draw strength from the Egyptian pyramids through universal wi-fi.
  17. Varyag77
    Varyag77 18 January 2018 21: 33
    +3
    Quote: kalibr
    But did Plano Carpini and others write with him in whose interests? Really shocked the Russian princes in their civil war? And in the battle of Legnica and other battles in Europe, who fought with whom? Also Russian ... And who, when and where rewrote this story is unclear. And why, the main thing. It was the right of the strong, and some monks with manuscripts there were of no interest to anyone. Before Peter there were no pro-Western clans. You read PSRL, read Klyuchevsky, Mavrodin, Rybakov. Why are you all inclined to ignorance?

    Before Peter there were no pro-Western clans? I have already named you one Madame Elena Glinskaya. mother of Ivan the Terrible. She and her supporters were pro-Western at that moment, having their roots in Poland, Lithuania and Ukraine. about western travelers. It is believed that these comrades did not reach anywhere at all, and their descriptions were rumored. And an indirect confirmation of this (for example) is that Kiev is called the capital of Russia (I won’t lie, I forgot exactly which of them), although Kiev has not been to it for almost 100 years. So it’s not so simple. I know of. history is not bad for itself. But for some time now I personally had doubts that the officials could not dispel. Too much far-fetched in the description of this era. Officials cannot answer very important questions. Well, finally I do not like the position of the officials, when in some document it says something that does not fit into the concept, then this is recognized as a mistake, improper interpretation or just fantasy.
    So I ask you a direct question. Where did the Mongols get so much iron for arming their troops. Can you clearly answer me? So that I would not be tormented by such thoughts.
    There is such a thing as logic, which in the case of the yoke is distorted a little more than completely. Example. Previously, it was believed that the Tatar-Mongolo came 300 thousand. Well, everyone seemed to understand that this is a huge force, which is impossible to resist. Now the numbers have taken and downplayed. up to 30 thousand. For 300 thousand did not climb into any gate. And everything seemed to be fine. Yes, that's just not quite. 30 thousand Mongols could not conquer Russia in any way. Well, they’d take a couple of cities, and that’s all. It’s not the strength to walk the rink through a country in which they knew how to fight very well. Not those. not enough.
    1. Begemot
      Begemot 19 January 2018 10: 57
      +2
      Entirely and fully support, colleague.
      Sometimes reading officials is just sickening. They write that Mamai, having gone to Moscow, ordered the fields not to be sown and not processed, because he counted on rich Russian trophies and chose the time of the campaign in the fall after harvesting. Well, nonsense! Mythology, and only that is why it is impossible to trust any historical document on 100%.
  18. Operator
    Operator 18 January 2018 21: 44
    +1
    The vast majority of Mongol warriors of the 12-15th century saw the main weapons as a bow and a wooden club, and greasy sheepskin coats and triuh as a defensive weapon. Only the military commanders had metal weapons and armor.

    The Mongols took the number, so when the population of the Russian principalities increased and was able to put up a militia of a similar size, the Mongols were thrown back to Mongolia, where to this day they eke out a miserable existence.

    PS The author of articles about the "great and terrible Mongol warriors" saw enough of the fantasy pictures of the Jewish "historian" Gorelik, who was tormented by the inferiority complex before the Russians and therefore sucked fake "Mongol-Mordovian-Tatar knights" from his finger for a bribe from Western customers .
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 21 January 2018 11: 52
      0
      The Mongols have broken the great Aryans, who bring light to the peoples - there is nothing to be done, you have to come to terms ... laughing
      1. Operator
        Operator 21 January 2018 12: 03
        0
        Where can I find on modern maps the great and terrible Mongolian Federation from the Atlantic (the Baltic and Black Seas enter the basin of this ocean) and the Arctic Ocean to the Pacific? laughing

        When did the Mongols wipe out the French, German, Austro-Hungarian, Ottoman, Japanese and British empires? laughing

        What was the name of the first cosmonaut in the history of mankind - Mongol Shoudan, not? laughing

        For whom 74-year-old East European Jews were hunched over before they were driven out to their "historical homeland"?
  19. Looking for
    Looking for 18 January 2018 22: 00
    +2
    Quote: Artek
    In general, this lily came to the power of Galia / France only after the Bourbon clan came into power in 1589, already after the death of Ivan the Terrible, so by.

    Amazing ignorance.
  20. Varyag77
    Varyag77 18 January 2018 22: 24
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    But did Plano Carpini and others write with him in whose interests?

    Russia is a large country in the north. (2) Christians of the Greek Confession live here. There are many kings and their own language; the people are simple-minded and very beautiful; men and women are white and blond. On the border there are many difficult passages and fortresses. They do not pay tribute to anyone, only a little to the king of the West; and he is Tatar and is called Taktaktay, they pay him tribute, and no one else. (3) This country is not trading, but they have many expensive furs of high value; they have sable, and ermines, and squirrels, and ercolins, and many glorious foxes, the best in the world. They have a lot of silver ores; they mine a lot of silver. (4)
    Tell who wrote? or do you know? Well and then with the song. tell us what kind of king of the West (West) is it in question. Anyway.
    1. Curious
      Curious 18 January 2018 23: 43
      +1
      Do you want to criticize Marco Polo? So it started back in 1966, the German Mongolian Herbert Franke from Munich. According to Franke, Polo borrowed chapters on China from the now-lost Arab encyclopedia and most likely did not reach the Far East. After that, the book has already been studied up and down. It contains a lot of information from second and third hands (as information about Russia) and obvious conjectures. In addition, the original is not there. Scribes must have contributed. So your “run over” is not relevant, it was done much earlier.
    2. Luga
      Luga 19 January 2018 10: 31
      +3
      Quote: Varyag77
      tell us what kind of king of the West (West) is it in question.

      If you are crazy about rewriting texts written in China, or using rumors from there, then the Golden Horde is precisely in the West, and silver mines, of which there have never been in Russia, too.
  21. Varyag77
    Varyag77 19 January 2018 00: 29
    0
    Quote: Curious
    Do you want to criticize Marco Polo? So it started back in 1966, the German Mongolian Herbert Franke from Munich. According to Franke, Polo borrowed chapters on China from the now-lost Arab encyclopedia and most likely did not reach the Far East. After that, the book has already been studied up and down. It contains a lot of information from second and third hands (as information about Russia) and obvious conjectures. In addition, the original is not there. Scribes must have contributed. So your “run over” is not relevant, it was done much earlier.

    So no problem. This is addressed to the caliber, which presents Polo and similar grief travelers, as the ultimate truth. And if you read from the same Karpini an episode with copper riders, and with fire inside them, then this work can be thrown into the trash. Here is the true price of such sources.
    1. Curious
      Curious 19 January 2018 01: 15
      +2
      Well, thrown away, heeded your advice. But you need something in return. Instead, offer a list of historical literature containing guaranteed reliable information.
      Look forward to.
  22. kalibr
    19 January 2018 07: 45
    +3
    Quote: Varyag77
    So I ask you a direct question. Where did the Mongols get so much iron for arming their troops. Can you clearly answer me? So that I would not be tormented by such thoughts.

    Very well. The direct question will be the same answer. Read: monographs by Khudyakov, Belorybkin and Sokolov. The web has all their work. There you will find everything you need.

    And now such an illustrative example. I have a gun, a kukri and an ax at home. And then a meteorite is falling nearby, well, very large. The house is falling asleep. Then everything is cast, 1000 years pass, archaeologists dig it up and wonder: there is a gun, there are kukri, there is an ax. But there is no anvil, lathe, 3d printer - nothing? Where did he get it from ???
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 19 January 2018 08: 24
      +3
      5 points! I recall a similar passage in Jerome about the ingenious sculptors of porcelain dogs.
    2. long in stock.
      long in stock. 19 January 2018 18: 30
      +3
      and by the way, the presence of kukri suggests that gurkhs lived in penza .. again, in the photograph, the nose is characteristic of a Nepal resident ..
  23. kalibr
    19 January 2018 07: 50
    +3
    Quote: Varyag77
    I know of. history is not bad for itself.

    And how long have you been doing it ... on a professional level? How many years have you been teaching? What printing works do you have on it? Of course you are familiar with the works of Khudyakov and Sokolov, not to mention Belorybkin, are you?
    1. Varyag77
      Varyag77 19 January 2018 09: 15
      +2
      I understand that you are directly proud of your superiority. I have been seeing this in your comments for a long time, but in order to keep abreast of official history it is not at all necessary to teach and write works on it.
      1. kalibr
        19 January 2018 11: 00
        +2
        It’s just that I’m dealing with the topic of the East ... for 18 years already. During this time, four books have been published on this subject, two of which I have reviewed the Institute of Oriental Studies of the Russian Academy of Sciences, one has received a grant from the Russian State Humanitarian University, and two have been published in England. Articles have been in peer-reviewed journals and here. And I agree with you that teaching is not necessary, and even writing is not necessary. To know. But then you need to show your knowledge correctly. Here on the site there is a certain Curios. He is also not a teacher, not the author of monographs, but for some reason I reckon with his opinion and comments. There is Luga, who has very competently analyzed the material of my colleague recently. There are some more. I don’t have a desire to reckon with your comments. Prove that they and your knowledge are worth it and I’ll be the first to say that I’m lucky to meet here on the site another competent comrade. But it doesn’t work - sorry!
  24. Operator
    Operator 19 January 2018 08: 10
    +1
    Quote: Dimmih
    Sanskrit is one of the most well-documented ancient Indo-European languages

    Yes, yes, yes: water is a liquid, the Earth is round, it’s cold in winter, when you go out, turn off the light ...

    Damn, at least once in your life you would try to think independently, and not quote someone else's nonsense: what ancient ethnos was Indo-European, i.e. living in both Europe and India (a hint for the tellers - Arias, self-name - Arai).

    Gypsy does not offer laughing
    1. long in stock.
      long in stock. 19 January 2018 18: 32
      0
      do not blaspheme !!! St. Fomenko once and for all proved that the earth is flat! heresiarch ..
  25. kalibr
    19 January 2018 08: 26
    +1
    Quotation: blooded man
    here is a whole vast empire and no one has yet reconstructed the Mongol army.

    Get on the site of the National Museum of the History of Mongolia. To the right will be local military and cultural museums + photos. There are also about the ancient Mongol army and artisans. Everything is.
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 19 January 2018 13: 01
      +3
      I am writing about reconstruction, not museums and artifacts. Simply put, put a couple of thousand on horses with Mongolian outfit and ride a couple of hundred kilometers in winter without forage.
  26. Varyag77
    Varyag77 19 January 2018 09: 10
    +1
    Quote: Curious
    Well, thrown away, heeded your advice. But you need something in return. Instead, offer a list of historical literature containing guaranteed reliable information.
    Look forward to.

    That is the point, I’m not sure that the sources contain guaranteed reliable information.
    1. Curious
      Curious 19 January 2018 10: 55
      +1
      Your suggestions? What to do? And what is your criticism based on if, in your opinion, there is not a single reliable source? "Sin" is not proof. Any denial must be justified. Otherwise it smacks of paranoia
  27. Varyag77
    Varyag77 19 January 2018 09: 12
    0
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: Varyag77
    So I ask you a direct question. Where did the Mongols get so much iron for arming their troops. Can you clearly answer me? So that I would not be tormented by such thoughts.

    Very well. The direct question will be the same answer. Read: monographs by Khudyakov, Belorybkin and Sokolov. The web has all their work. There you will find everything you need.

    And now such an illustrative example. I have a gun, a kukri and an ax at home. And then a meteorite is falling nearby, well, very large. The house is falling asleep. Then everything is cast, 1000 years pass, archaeologists dig it up and wonder: there is a gun, there are kukri, there is an ax. But there is no anvil, lathe, 3d printer - nothing? Where did he get it from ???

    No answer. I understand correctly? That is, in a nutshell, you can’t explain it to the stray, and you acted exactly like the other adherents of official science. But it would seem that it is easier. Q.E.D.
    1. kalibr
      19 January 2018 11: 03
      0
      And this is the most stupid to explain what people spend years “in a nutshell”. You ask the physicist to explain to you the theory of relativity in a nutshell. Not everything that seems simple is such a thing!
      By the way, I also asked you a direct question and you also did not answer it: this one is "And in the battle of Legnica and other battles in Europe, who fought with whom?"
      1. Varyag77
        Varyag77 19 January 2018 11: 10
        +1
        Yes, that's just it. There are only 2 options.
        1. mined themselves. as evidenced by the presence of used deposits, forges, furnaces, etc., etc.
        2. Traded as evidenced by descriptions, trade agreements, eyewitness accounts, etc., etc.
        Is there any of this? Or you will continue to use common phrases with a smart look to push about a certain sacred secret, which I must comprehend myself.
        Here about Russia, for example, it is clear. And about the Mongols no. And your article is a confirmation of this, oddly enough. Leather and bone armor. So how so?
        In principle, you can not answer. I know there is no answer. But I do not understand why this fact does not even raise a shadow of doubt on the inspired faces of officials.
        1. kalibr
          19 January 2018 11: 40
          0
          Third time: By the way, I also asked you a direct question and you did not answer him either: this one is "And in the battle of Legnica and other battles in Europe, who fought with whom?"
      2. co-creator
        co-creator 19 January 2018 13: 03
        +3
        Comparing physics and history is ridiculous and stupid. In physics, you cannot lie and juggle, but in history it is enough to destroy several documents and reality changes.
    2. Lord_Raven
      Lord_Raven 19 January 2018 11: 08
      +4
      Quote: Varyag77
      That is the point, I’m not sure that the sources contain guaranteed reliable information.

      No one disputes that most historical sources sin with errors and conjectures. But this is the main task of historical research - to analyze the source, give internal and external criticism, compare it with data from other sources, archaeological excavations, etc. Only in this way the conclusions obtained by the researcher will be considered reasonable. Therefore, adherents of various alternative currents look so ridiculous as, for example, the "chroniclers" or supporters of the Veles Book, since they not only do not know most of the sources, but also did not work with them, at least because of their lack of knowledge of Old Slavic, Greek, Arabic, Old German languages ​​in which these sources are written, but also regularly confuse sources and literature on the topic.
      Quote: Varyag77
      No answer. I understand correctly? That is, in a nutshell, you can’t explain it to the stray, and you acted exactly like the other adherents of official science. But it would seem that it is easier. Q.E.D.

      Nothing complicated, the most necessary amount of metal for arming the army was obtained, first of all, by robbing the conquered territories: China, Khorezm, etc. And by the way, if you read PVL, you will learn with interest that the "monogols" during their campaigns without fail captured prisoners and artisans. Why is it asking?
      Quote: Varyag77
      but in order to keep abreast of official history it is not at all necessary to teach and write works on it.

      Yes, but unfortunately a significant number of works of the data of the so-called "researchers" sin with ignorance of the methodology and basic principles of conducting research in the field of history, which leads to the appearance of "baby mistakes" and crazy concepts.
  28. marline
    marline 19 January 2018 11: 07
    +3
    Thanks for the article, Vyacheslav Olegovich, I liked it very much. The comments are good too, it's a pity that popcorn quickly ended.
  29. Varyag77
    Varyag77 19 January 2018 11: 31
    +1
    Quote: Lord_Raven
    First of all, by robbing the conquered territories: China, Khorezm, etc.

    And they seized them with a dragon?
    1. Lord_Raven
      Lord_Raven 19 January 2018 12: 22
      +2
      And in your view, the nomadic tribes of the Great Steppe were naked and with a dracoli across the steppe? And they fought among themselves purely in hand-to-hand fighting? Or threw stones and dung? But was China a single power and there was no division into the Song empire, the Tangut state, the southern empire, the state of the Jurchen?
      And after that, read about how the Mongols mined iron, so as not to ask stupid questions later http://historicaldis.ru/blog/43246160516/ZHelezo-
      i-mongolyi.
      1. Varyag77
        Varyag77 19 January 2018 15: 37
        +1
        Well, that would not write nonsense to begin with, study the appearance of iron in Russia. Yes it was, but it was not enough. and the iron from the swamp ore is rather shitty in quality. Russia bought iron. But you continue to smartly broadcast about Mongolian swamps and African tribes. Indeed, in your understanding, this is one and the same. in the tribe to make 30-50 spearheads plus utensils and at the Mongol arm and armor at least 100 thousand troops. Same. really. So the author of the article showed us the Mongolian armor. True ... hmm ... not iron at all. So read more and your horizons will expand. I'm sure.
        1. tlauicol
          tlauicol 19 January 2018 16: 07
          +1
          Those. You didn’t read the link, preferring to roll a healthy comment?
  30. kalibr
    19 January 2018 11: 35
    0
    Quote: Varyag77
    Here about Russia, for example, it is clear. And about the Mongols no.

    I realized that you are interested, but in one material you cannot immediately answer all the questions. You also do not answer for the second time to the question of the Battle of Legnica. If interested, I’ll do it and the answer will be in one of the materials. Not in a hurry, with the involvement of materials and links to sources.
    1. Varyag77
      Varyag77 19 January 2018 14: 23
      +4
      What interests you in this battle? fact of its holding? And apparently you are throwing it in the piggy bank of. stories. I understand correctly?
      Well it was. that's just who specifically fought is a big question. replace the Tatars in Russian (for example) and the whole business then. Reverse replacement also does not require much effort. It’s enough to say half the truth and they believe you.
      It amazes me that when you see how the history of the biggest and bloody tragedy in the entire history of the existence of civilization, with tens of millions of dead, with hundreds of destroyed cities when the participants of those events are still alive, is being rewritten, you find it simply impossible to rewrite (or invent) stories in the middle century. This is simply incomprehensible to the mind. Now, with open archives, television, the Internet, digitized libraries, finally, there is an open falsification of the history of 2MB. And in all directions. Reasons, its course, its results and who won and who lost. Insolently and cynically. On all fronts, from textbooks to material evidence, such as military graves, monuments, etc.
      In the Middle Ages, everything was not only simpler, but catastrophically simpler. All knowledge was essentially accumulated in monasteries. The pope will say it right and that's it. A rigid vertical governance of the church is a great help in matters of this magnitude. And technically it does not cause any difficulties. They give birth to the necessary history in Rome and in a year in every monastery in Europe there will be just such a story. After 5 years, those few representatives of the elite who are at least somehow interested in this will know this. All. the question is closed.
      So the fact of rewriting historical events does not look something out of the ordinary.
      Again, look at what is happening now. as the US says so their sixes in the west say.
      Previously, the Vatican occupied the United States.
      You say, what about the Eastern sources. I will answer that I generally have big doubts about the correctness of their dating. And it seems to me that we have exaggerated the "greatness" of the ancient east. Will we remember about Omar Khayyam? Remodelers are all. Europeans wrote a story to the east, as they wrote to China, Egypt, etc.
      1. Lord_Raven
        Lord_Raven 19 January 2018 14: 43
        +2
        Quote: Varyag77
        You say, what about the Eastern sources. I will answer that I generally have big doubts about the correctness of their dating.

        Okay Can you give an argument based on which you draw a similar conclusion? I can suggest that for this, internal and external criticism of the source is usually used. But since I strongly doubt that someone will let you hold the original in your hands, let us dwell on internal criticism? So, what text discrepancies led you to this conclusion? The specifics of writing vowels do not coincide with those adopted at that time? Or something else?
        PS And, by the way, according to the rules of good form and the observance of the principle of science for the "internal criticism" of the source, would it be nice to know the original language? Do you speak Arabic or Persian?
        1. Varyag77
          Varyag77 19 January 2018 15: 19
          +4
          Can you tell where the ORIGINALS of Egyptian chronicles lie? Or Chinese? Or where is the ORIGINAL of the innermost legend of the Mongols? And I will not say anything about where to see the original PVL.
          All the "written sources" so lovingly cherished by the office workers are some lists that saw the light in the 18-19 centuries. It’s strange how. And generally a big question. And whether it’s lists, or outright fakes. No answer. and will not be. Officials simply took it as an axiom that these sources are the ultimate truth, subsequently summing up all other facts into the written course of events. Here is the whole office. And there are people (and I, to some extent, too) who are very surprised by this state of affairs. Who look at the question more voluminously, with the involvement of related knowledge. And then this very offistory begins to creak and crack at the seams.
          The Mongol army was reduced to 30 thousand apprx. The historian apparently does not care that it is too little to conquer Russia.
          30 thousand troops are 100 thousand horses. In the winter. In Russia. And all they have is good with food.
          There is no metal of your own, but as you say hold on. From somewhere well-armed and well-protected squinted guys bent half the world.
          Very advanced for its time, the compound Mongolian bow is the key to outstanding victories. Yes, in Russia, he has been known since 11th century for this very compound bow. Russia at the time of the collision with the Mongols already forgive bent everyone and everything around them. The Byzantines gave the Lyuli to the Polovtsy. the Pechenegs, the Khazars were simply destroyed, the Poles, the Hungarians ... By the cabbage soup they received simply everyone whom the Russians could reach or who had the stupidity of inviting uninvited guests.
          The only Russians among the Europeans had more than 200 years of experience in battles with the steppes. And so it means that 30 thousand of some ragged people just walked the rink around Mother Russia.
          Not the guys. excuse me. It will be possible to convince me of this only with iron concrete evidence, which the office does not possess. At least for now.
          1. Lord_Raven
            Lord_Raven 19 January 2018 15: 49
            +2
            As I suspected, any attempt to get meaningful argumentation from you on the problems of certainty of certain written sources comes down to cries of inaccuracy and forgery. The evidence of this, zero point, hell tenths.
            Quote: Varyag77
            And there are people (and I, to some extent, too) who are very surprised by this state of affairs. Who look at the question more voluminously, with the involvement of related knowledge. And then this very offistory begins to creak and crack at the seams.

            Well, we ask for voluminous and related knowledge in the studio.
            Quote: Varyag77
            The Mongol army was reduced to 30 thousand apprx. The historian apparently does not care that it is too little to conquer Russia.

            And how much was needed? Probably you personally from the General Staff of Russia reported on the number of squads and the mobilization reserve of the Russian principalities? Feudal fragmentation? No, have not heard!!!))
            Quote: Varyag77
            By the cabbage soup they received simply everyone whom the Russians could reach or who had the stupidity of inviting uninvited people to lodge on a visit.

            Well, yes, and the Poles under Boleslav the Brave did not take Kiev, and Svyatoslav Igorevich died with his death, and he defeated the Byzantines directly under Dorostol, just then he urgently wanted to go home. Nostalgia tortured))
            PS In principle, the patient’s diagnosis is clear, it remains to wait until the time comes and the Hydromassons, Hyperboreans and reptilians from Alpha Centauri will take their rightful place in the history of Mother Russia))
          2. tlauicol
            tlauicol 20 January 2018 06: 22
            +1
            and which principality could oppose 30 thousand troops to the same strength?
            e.g. 1000r from Moscow, 2000r. from Tver (tribute: a ruble from two sokh) gives us 500-1000 peasant farms. How many warriors will such an economy expose?
            1. co-creator
              co-creator 20 January 2018 07: 49
              +3
              You have just shown yourself that in the winter 30 thousand troops would have simply stopped nafig because for them there is stupidly no food in such a meager number of households. How can you not see this incomprehensibly.
              1. tlauicol
                tlauicol 20 January 2018 09: 03
                +1
                By the way, I counted incorrectly (4 times wrong repeat ) - divided, but not multiplied
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator 20 January 2018 10: 02
                  +2
                  Quote: Tlauicol
                  By the way, I counted incorrectly (4 times wrong repeat ) - divided, but not multiplied

                  But what does it change? Instead of 500 and 1000, 2000 and 4000 became. Nothing.
              2. tlauicol
                tlauicol 20 January 2018 09: 15
                +1
                Each Mongol ate a sheep a day, and three a horse or a cow?
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator 20 January 2018 10: 00
                  +2
                  In winter, people eat more, they need to get up for the night or bivouac more often, which increases food intake. It seems like common truths.
                  1. tlauicol
                    tlauicol 20 January 2018 11: 03
                    +1
                    a cow a day? Then of course take a break
                    1. co-creator
                      co-creator 20 January 2018 11: 56
                      +2
                      The French have rested. Did they eat a cow a day?
                    2. Luga
                      Luga 20 January 2018 13: 11
                      +1
                      The French have rested. Did they eat a cow a day?

                      Dear tlauikol, it seems to me that the user "conservative" fully revealed himself in this discussion laughing demonstrating very clearly both the level of their argumentation and the general cultural level. You can, of course, twitch it a little more, but I'm sure we will not see anything fundamentally new - all the same peremptory judgments based solely on the author’s sick imagination, ridiculous analogies, frustrated thinking and total ignorance.
                      You can, of course, analyze his messages in a complex and from all points of view, but I feel sorry for spending time on this, besides, I think that he made a proper impression on the readers of his opuses. smile A diagnosis of cognitive dissonance is the least that can be rewarded.
                      Given the increased activity of the character, I believe that we all will still have the opportunity to enjoy communicating with him, enjoy his inimitable syllable and impeccable logical constructions wassat , although I do not stop hoping for the opposite. laughing
                      If you will, do not consider it insolence, I’ll ask you to give the “conscript” the opportunity to gain strength over the weekend for new creative exploits.
                      1. co-creator
                        co-creator 20 January 2018 16: 54
                        +3
                        Pan Luga, you will not accidentally be a sectarian? bully
      2. Luga
        Luga 19 January 2018 15: 06
        +2
        Quote: Varyag77
        They give birth to the necessary history in Rome and in a year in every monastery in Europe there will be just such a story.

        What about Eastern Europe, Persia, China? Russia was not subject to Rome at any time, the rest of the world either. How is it with them? Say that the British came and changed everything? Well, nonsense.
  31. kalibr
    19 January 2018 11: 44
    +2
    Quote: Begemot
    therefore, one cannot believe 100% of any historical document.

    You're right! But how much can be determined by comparing dozens of variables: paleobotany, sphragistics, paleogenetics, numismatics ... archeology, a lot of things are compared for the sake of proving just one fact. One or two sources cannot be used to judge anything.
  32. Servisinzhener
    Servisinzhener 19 January 2018 13: 18
    +3
    As always, a sea of ​​fierichsky unscientific comments from alternatively gifted adherents of historical charlotans. For whom historical science is entirely a hoax.
  33. Varyag77
    Varyag77 19 January 2018 15: 44
    +1
    Quote: Luga
    Quote: Varyag77
    They give birth to the necessary history in Rome and in a year in every monastery in Europe there will be just such a story.

    What about Eastern Europe, Persia, China? Russia was not subject to Rome at any time, the rest of the world either. How is it with them? Say that the British came and changed everything? Well, nonsense.

    So see above. I wrote that, in my opinion, the pro-Western elite did this in our country, which, beginning with the mother of Ivan the Terrible, Elena Glinsky, crushed Russia. The reasons are also obvious. legalize your rights. And disassociate themselves from those who REALLY came with a sword to Russia in the 13th century. In other words, make Russians forget who they fought in the 13th century. The real aggressor was replaced by fictional Mongols.
    1. Luga
      Luga 19 January 2018 16: 15
      +2
      But are China and Persia still British? Their chronicles, to the extent that they relate to the Mongols, are quite consistent with our chronicles.
      You know, of course, I am not a supporter of a "world conspiracy" against our history, but if we assume that the sources were purged, then they were carried out, rather, in the opposite direction. Everything related to the invasion and the Golden Horde was removed: labels, diplomatic correspondence, fiscal documents confirming the payment of tribute ... And this could be done, you are right, during the time of Ivan the Terrible, who declared himself a descendant of August Caesar, and it was poor for him was to recognize in fact vassal dependence on the Horde of their ancestors, or during the formation of the Romanov dynasty. At one time, I was led to the last thought by the content of the Approved 1613 Certificate, where some historical events are treated with terrible cruelty.
      Tell me, what is the point of coming up with the enemies of Russia mythical invaders to hide the banal feud? Yes, in their place it is necessary to yell about it at all angles - how, then, Russians are cutting Russians. The most developed in the economic, cultural and political sense, the state of Europe has destroyed itself! Just a find for Russophobe, don’t you?
  34. kalibr
    19 January 2018 16: 47
    +3
    Quote: Luga
    Tell me, what is the point of coming up with the enemies of Russia mythical invaders to hide the banal feud? Yes, in their place it is necessary to yell about it at all angles - how, then, Russians are cutting Russians. The most developed in the economic, cultural and political sense, the state of Europe has destroyed itself! Just a find for Russophobe, don’t you?

    You got ahead of me while I went to work! Any business of this magnitude requires money, people, knowledge ... and all this for what? What Russ smear from civil strife? What for? On the contrary, it was necessary to finish off the mutts - "they are not bad savages!" So the game is not worth the candle. And again, the question is: under Legnica, who was fighting with whom?
    1. Luga
      Luga 19 January 2018 17: 25
      +4
      No, you can’t break them with Legnica. The Russians were there, why not understand? Batu after all is Alexander Nevsky, if I didn’t mix anything up, I’m not strong in the “new chronology”. request Here he is, in the sense of Nevsky, and fought.
      People simply do not understand the extent of the defeat during the invasion and the consequences thereof. For most, this is ... like a game, or something. Computer. Story, a fairy tale. And in this case, does it really matter what to tell? That is how anyone is sophisticated. They will grow up mature, grow wiser (I hope) - they will be ashamed, but by then they will be new, brought up by them, they will come up with even worse things.
  35. kalibr
    19 January 2018 16: 51
    +1
    Quote: Varyag77
    ORIGINALS OF EGYPTIAN CHRONICLES?

    In the Cairo Museum of Egyptology, in the St. Petersburg Hermitage - “Turishchev’s papyrus”, in the Louvre, in the British Museum ... And they are also knocked out on the walls of temples in Abydos, Abu Simbel ... many where.
  36. kalibr
    19 January 2018 16: 59
    +3
    Quote: Lord_Raven
    Do you speak Arabic or Persian?

    What did you want ?! Persian ... and also Arabic, Chinese ... all this to learn to go crazy you see. It's easier to say - fakes are all that. Around are enemies, Jesuits, Masons, Jews (how without them?) And everyone is deceiving the Russians, forging chronicles for them, inventing epics, writing lives ... the goal is to deceive the Russians !!! Otherwise, they will not live, if not deceived, they will come and take everything away! They, Russians, are strong only with a sword, but they are weak on their heads. They believe everything that they will write om in Old Slavonic, only now they have a little sight, though they can’t read it. So the slogan of the day is “Deceive a stupid Russian, write him a chronicle!”
  37. kalibr
    19 January 2018 17: 04
    +2
    Quotation: blooded man
    but in history it’s enough to destroy several documents and the reality is changing.

    No, because there will be cross sources that show which documents are missing. And it will be possible to conclude that either they are not there or that they are destroyed and indirect evidence needs to be sought. It is impossible to destroy everything, because then ... you will have to destroy ALL. But everything is not destroyed, that means there is indirect evidence, and since they are there, it makes no sense to destroy, and in particular ...
    Here is an example for you: look at Soviet studies, where it comes to Lend-Lease. All references to Lend-Lease data were given to Zhukov’s book, Memoirs and Thoughts. Three numbers were quoted. But does this mean that this data was not? Or that they were classified? Yes, they were classified, but ... there was the newspaper PRAVDA for June 11, 1944, where the Sov. everything was given to the government !!! But in Soviet times, NONE of the historians referred to this newspaper! And why? "Not recommended." In our time, they have compared - but everything is correct, not exaggerated and not understated. Because it was a PR move, designed more for Hitler than for our citizens. But it was oil to their hearts to them too - over there how everyone helps us! And Hitler - right in the face, "you can not win!" And intelligence could confirm - everything is true! And no one destroyed this source after the war ... Although, in theory, it would be necessary. I would definitely order then to destroy the newspaper and write an article on this place about the prospects for the 1945 harvest. After 90 days, 80% of people would have forgotten everything, after 180, 98% would have forgotten. And those who would remember and speak - to the camps. And everything would be sewn-covered! But even this did not work out for us ...
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 21 January 2018 00: 44
      +2
      I do not agree with you. Any indirect source can be blamed for bias or just a lie and can be explained by the fact that there are no documents where these events took place. Two camps will immediately appear where some will refer to indirect sources, while others will accuse them of ignorance. Yes, in the 20th century there are a lot of indirect sources and in general documents, therefore it is difficult to conceal information. But for example, there are few sources in 16-17, I'm not talking about later times. For example, our main historians RI Solovyov, Klyuchevsky blindly believed Western chroniclers who described the reign of Ivan the Terrible, citing the fact that there were simply no other sources. Is this the right approach?
      The same Novgorod pogrom is described as being described in sufficient detail, but there is much evidence that it was not in this form. Again, all these are indirect sources, and historians say - there is a direct source in the form of a chronicle, and all the rest go through the forest. Only the question arises, how many documents were destroyed during the unrest in the 17th century? Indeed, there were probably documents that described this "pogrom" officially, that is, government papers.
      And how many documents did the Bolsheviks destroy? After all, all the archives that were stored in the towers of the Kremlin and Kitai Gorod were simply burned.
      Quote: kalibr
      I would definitely order then to destroy the newspaper and write an article on this place about the prospects for the 1945 harvest. After 90 days, 80% of people would have forgotten everything, after 180, 98% would have forgotten. And those who would remember and speak - to the camps. And everything would be sewn-covered! But even this did not work out for us.

      You yourself confirmed that it was enough just to destroy the newspaper and you can safely change the story.
      Just imagine that in 1991, the Democrats completely destroyed the archive of the Stalinist repressions. What do you think, how many shot would you count today? Judging by the historical works of liberal historians that even open archives are not a decree of 10 million for sure.
  38. Varyag77
    Varyag77 19 January 2018 18: 45
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    Turishchev papyrus

    Is this the one that saw the light of day in 1820? by which they can’t understand how to count it? Oh yeah. this is another source on the history of Egypt. If we discard blind faith in what is written on the fence, then from the so-called sources there will be one zilch.
    1. kalibr
      19 January 2018 19: 46
      +1
      And why did you decide that "by which they cannot understand how to count that?" For a long time everyone read it. It has 27 illustrations. 15 images have satirical content. Depicted, for example, animals engaged in human affairs: mice storming a cat's fortress; hippopotamus picking fruit from a tree; donkey in the form of a judge. The remaining images are scenes of coitus in a variety of poses, sometimes exotic. Illustrations are accompanied by explanatory inscriptions. They argue about the interpretation of the content. But if we see illustrations for Krylov’s fables, then without knowing that we will also make different judgments.
      "That from the so-called sources there will be only one zilch" - ignorance is an excuse for young people, but to show it is childish. And yet, what about Legnica? Who is there, also Russ Russ?
      1. Curious
        Curious 19 January 2018 23: 46
        +1
        Today I already tried to explain to one comrade that for the full processing of certain information a certain basic level is needed. Otherwise, this information will be poison and everything will go according to the dictum of King Solomon: "And I betrayed my heart to know wisdom and to know madness and stupidity: I learned that this is also a languor of the spirit; because there is much sorrow in many wisdom; and whoever multiplies knowledge, multiplies sorrow. " Such cases are multiplying. Information becomes easily accessible, it is not available on prescription. We have cases of mass poisoning. There comrade already orderlies are in a straitjacket, and he yells "Usrebrechnya". He exploded, heartfelt, took on an excessive load.
        1. co-creator
          co-creator 20 January 2018 11: 58
          +2
          Quote: Curious
          that for the full processing of certain information requires a certain basic level.

          For example, what? Define the scope of this level.
          1. Curious
            Curious 20 January 2018 12: 06
            +1
            What for? Are you interested? I am too lazy to write an article on historical methodology. There is a lot of literature on the topic. Work.
            1. co-creator
              co-creator 20 January 2018 15: 45
              +2
              Quote: Curious
              What for? Are you interested? I am too lazy to write an article on historical methodology. There is a lot of literature on the topic. Work.

              I have no more questions for you laughing
              1. kalibr
                20 January 2018 18: 20
                +2
                Let me answer you, after all, since 1982 I have been teaching students. Something interested you in history. Fine! You look at historiography on the topic: who, what, wrote about it. Articles and monographs, although you can start with a university textbook. The presence of a higher education is MANDATORY, if it is not, well ... miracles do happen, but I have not come across. So - having any higher education you read works on this topic. First in Russian. Then in a foreign language known to you, English, German, French. I’m reading English historians; Japanese students who have studied Japanese have translated Japanese sources to me. Then you write down the main questions that you did not find the answer to and read again, already taking into account these questions. When you can give 50% of the answers - this is something. Then, then it’s worth trying to write something yourself or go to the archive, but this is aerobatics, I don’t call you to this. Now how long does it take? It took me 17 years to get to know the culture of Japan before writing the final monograph, but you can keep it in 2-3 years if you work hard. Something like this ... there is simply no other way. It’s pointless to consider that you learn something by reading 1-2 books a year at night and viewing articles on VO. Again ... You can, for example, download ALL of my articles about knights, post them chronologically and thematically, and read quickly. But it will be ALL ONE MONOGRAPHY, and preferably at least 2-3 different authors. Well, for example, there are 43 volumes of PSRL - you need to read from, at least some ... On the Internet, they are
                1. co-creator
                  co-creator 20 January 2018 23: 42
                  +2
                  Quote: kalibr
                  Let me answer you, after all, since 1982 I have been teaching students.

                  Thanks for the adequate and direct answer.
                  As I understand it, 99% of the population does not have any basic level and, according to history, they should not speak at all.
                  1. Operator
                    Operator 21 January 2018 12: 22
                    +1
                    The basic level of knowledge of historical facts is not a panacea.

                    It also requires a certain level of intelligence, and it (intelligence) clearly does not reach this level in the vast majority of people.

                    Therefore, they (not reaching) use the most common ready-made sources of knowledge / non-knowledge of history and are not particularly worried about this issue, since they are busy with other, more urgent matters - earning livelihoods, various hobbies, raising children, art, etc. d.
  39. Varyag77
    Varyag77 19 January 2018 18: 50
    +1
    Quote: Tlauicol
    Those. You didn’t read the link, preferring to roll a healthy comment?

    I definitely read it. as he got to the swamps and threw it. everything became clear. This is the only way to justify somehow the Mongolian metallurgy. only for some reason, with regard to Russia, this method is assessed as low-efficient, so Russia blocked the needs for iron with trade. But for some reason, applying this to the Mongols is considered sufficient. But Russia did not equip 100 (200-300) thousand army. So this is not argumentation at all, but one ... zilch.
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol 20 January 2018 06: 13
      +1
      (C) "I definitely read it. I got to the swamps and left it." No.
      so read to the end. find out where the Iron Age came from. and read about iron deficiency in the Mongols too
  40. abrakadabre
    abrakadabre 19 January 2018 19: 37
    +1
    There are some inaccuracies. But overall good.
    Tibetan armor with sequential alternation of laminar and lamellar sets.
    This is a classic, so to speak, LAMELARY armor, without any laminar additives. It existed in this form in a cut, shape and design from the time of the Bronze Age (2nd millennium BC) to modern times on the expanses of Asia from the Mediterranean Sea to the Pacific Ocean. Only in antiquity the plates were bronze. And in AD iron and steel. The combined lamellar-laminar Asian armor is similar in cut, but looks a bit different.
    Reconstruction of the Mongolian military costume of the era of the invasion of Japan.
    It should be very clearly understood that the armor shown in the photo is Mongolian very conditionally. Yes, Mongolian. Because during this period in power in China there was a Mongol dynasty (and the Mongol empire has not yet disintegrated) and the main fighting force was ethnic Mongols and neighboring tribes that joined Genghis Khan. But at the same time, this is completely Chinese armor, as it was at the time before the Mongol invasion of China. That is, after the conquest of the Mongols of the Chinese and near-Chinese parts of the empire, they completely accepted Chinese armor.
    This instance is even more so Chinese. Because it has a design in purely Chinese traditions.
  41. Varyag77
    Varyag77 19 January 2018 23: 47
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    And yet, what about Legnica?

    You ask how to explain this from an alternative point of view? I think the battle was naturally. But probably (as part of an alternative view of events), the Europeans fought with the Russians. with whom were (possibly) representatives of the steppe. Well, why, I already spoke out here. The theory is certainly bold, but not impossible.
    1. Dimmih
      Dimmih 20 January 2018 13: 15
      +2
      Not bold, rather wild, purely for internal use in a circle of like-minded people.
    2. long in stock.
      long in stock. 20 January 2018 16: 32
      +2
      yes God bless them with details and courage ... I just don’t understand one thing, do you seriously think that Europeans at that time did not know who the Russians were ?? and confused them with nomads ?? okay to you ... because heresy is complete.
    3. kalibr
      20 January 2018 18: 26
      +1
      That is, the Russians first attacked EUROPE in 1241, and then the defeated crusaders came to us in 1242 to avenge the defeat and were again beaten? And the annals of who went where again lie, including their Rhymed Chronicle? Although they have something to cover our feuds with? Yes, and I still thought that I was good with fantasy ...
      1. long in stock.
        long in stock. 20 January 2018 22: 38
        0
        all this is sad ... man doesn’t even know that Canada was once a French colony
  42. co-creator
    co-creator 20 January 2018 11: 50
    +2
    tlauicol,
    tlauicol,
    Quote: Tlauicol
    Well, historians do not bomb a fart about this.
    I offer you a cheaper way to destroy a house of cards: take a pen and rewrite all the objectionable annals with your handwriting on plain paper — portray us a conspiracy theory

    Historians bomb more than conditional "Fomenkovists" a million times from here all refutations and other articles.
    Why should I rewrite the annals? It is enough that historians refuse to prove this scripture in practice.
    There is no conspiracy theory, there is a wrong explanation and understanding of the written material.
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol 20 January 2018 13: 55
      +1
      so tell the world what really happened there. at least determine the course of the party for the next quarter, at least
      1. co-creator
        co-creator 20 January 2018 15: 47
        +2
        Quote: Tlauicol
        so tell the world what really happened there. at least determine the course of the party for the next quarter, at least

        I kind of write in Russian. I wrote my vision of the situation.
        1. tlauicol
          tlauicol 20 January 2018 16: 35
          0
          I can not find where. if it’s not difficult again in general terms
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 20 January 2018 16: 56
            +2
            what exactly are you interested in.
            1. tlauicol
              tlauicol 20 January 2018 17: 33
              +1
              your vision of MIT and the Mongol conquests
              1. co-creator
                co-creator 20 January 2018 18: 05
                +2
                There was no MIT, tribute was paid either on the Crimean principle or as a fee for using the Volga trade route, the label is primarily the right to use the Volga route. Whoever received this label received money, etc.
                Nomads raids of course were, but not in winter naturally.
                Great Mongolian hiking? Without the Russian princes, this was unrealistic. Most likely the joint actions of nomads and Russians, and who was the main thing there is not particularly important.
                Of course, there was no Mongol empire as an empire in the European sense. Mongol conquests are similar to Viking conquests. Actually, the fact that the Mongol tribes themselves remained in their historical homeland speaks best of all about this.
                Of course, there were no protrusions or whatever they are called. The Mongol Empire is an Asian thing built by Asians.
    2. long in stock.
      long in stock. 20 January 2018 16: 38
      +2
      you, too, refuse ... I suggested to you that you are financing, we are fulfilling. And with your participation so that there are no forgeries and accusations .. you don’t want to. For my part, I can guarantee my participation as a rider and able to ride groups on horseback .. their skills in setting up camps in field conditions and getting food. Horse care and training for this skill and for you and everyone who wants it ... Vyacheslav Olegovich, we ask him to plot a route and a full description of what a Mongol warrior should look like and what he should carry with him ..
      1. co-creator
        co-creator 20 January 2018 17: 41
        +2
        why should I finance you can explain? )
        1. long in stock.
          long in stock. 20 January 2018 22: 03
          +1
          because you don’t believe in it ... who will bring something to you on a silver platter? It doesn’t happen. It’s you who have never sat on a horse claim that they can and what don’t .. it’s not a day that you’ve excavated claim that people who studied at historians and archaeologists are lying ... and you are afraid to prove your words by deed ... contact your great guru Fomenko - offer him this experiment since you yourself can neither do nor pay ..
          1. Curious
            Curious 20 January 2018 22: 42
            +1
            What an interesting suggestion! And discipline should be like that of nomads, and methods of maintaining it. Only the death penalty should be replaced by learning by heart the works of official historians.
            1. co-creator
              co-creator 21 January 2018 00: 05
              +2
              Quote: Curious
              What an interesting suggestion! And discipline should be like that of nomads, and methods of maintaining it.

              WHAT FOR? we put the experiment on horses first.
              Reading about discipline is generally ridiculous, especially to those who served in the army. There is a charter, but there is a service.
          2. co-creator
            co-creator 21 January 2018 00: 01
            +2
            Quote: Long in stock.
            it doesn’t happen. It’s you who never sat on a horse claim that they can and what can’t ..

            This is not I say, but those who exploit this horse.
            Quote: Long in stock.
            because you don’t believe in it ... who will bring you something on a silver platter?

            Many people do not believe in this. Why do reconnaissance historians spend rabid grandmothers on chivalrous, Roman, Gothic, etc., and then suddenly the toad strangles them?)
            Quote: Long in stock.
            .that you have not spent a day excavating claim that people who studied at historians and archaeologists all lie ..

            I never said that EVERYTHING. Although you may think that none of the historians is lying, and among archaeologists no one is engaged in forgery. It is your right, I do not insist.

            Quote: Long in stock.
            and afraid to prove your words by deed ..

            What am I afraid to prove? Go to the bookstore and there on the shelves you will find history books where Stalin personally shot a million, and in others he did not touch anyone in his life with his finger. This I exaggerate, but the essence is true. At the same time, they are written by historians who read the same archives. What conclusion? Some of them are lying.
            About forgeries in archeology can also be easily read on the net. For example, with the help of a forgery, they made the year of foundation of Kiev and Kazan at the right dates.

            Quote: Long in stock.
            contact your great guru Fomenko-offer him this experiment since you yourself can neither do nor pay ..

            Fomenko will be more honest than you once in a hundred. He does not call himself a historian and writes books that appear in the ALTERNATIVE HISTORY section.
            1. long in stock.
              long in stock. 21 January 2018 16: 47
              +2
              firstly, they spend their grandmothers on reconstruction ... that’s it. now about books .. whoever writes that Stalin shot millions do not go to the archives, like Fomenko .. they don’t need to be sold ... and yes there’s an alternative section ... but you and those like you with foam at the mouth already claim that this is HISTORY ... and by the way, historians do not confirm the year of foundation of Kazan. This is purely Babaev’s chip, they pulled the coin found ... it’s politics. the same Fomenko for the loot rigged. and historians know this and do not hide ..
  43. Dimmih
    Dimmih 20 January 2018 13: 13
    +3
    Quote: Varyag77
    Quote: Luga
    Quote: Varyag77
    They give birth to the necessary history in Rome and in a year in every monastery in Europe there will be just such a story.

    What about Eastern Europe, Persia, China? Russia was not subject to Rome at any time, the rest of the world either. How is it with them? Say that the British came and changed everything? Well, nonsense.

    So see above. I wrote that, in my opinion, the pro-Western elite did this in our country, which, beginning with the mother of Ivan the Terrible, Elena Glinsky, crushed Russia. The reasons are also obvious. legalize your rights. And disassociate themselves from those who REALLY came with a sword to Russia in the 13th century. In other words, make Russians forget who they fought in the 13th century. The real aggressor was replaced by fictional Mongols.

    I offer you an excellent preparation of an answer to everything you disagree with, crying out loudly and turning menacingly to say: "These books are corrupt and the Roman heresies are full!" Information about the Mongol invasion is from Japan to Western Europe through China, Central Asia and the Middle East. Well, what kind of cunning agents of the Vatican, of the Masons and of Lucifer himself need to be done to turn this around, to undermine our 45-thousand-year-old Russo-Aryan unity !!! Here, at least from this side, consider this question .....
  44. kalibr
    20 January 2018 18: 40
    0
    Quote: Varyag77
    It amazes me that when I see how the history of the biggest and bloody tragedy in the entire history of the existence of civilization is being written, with tens of millions of dead, with hundreds of destroyed cities, when participants in those events are still alive

    Name at least one author, do not offer Suvorov, Western, of course, which corresponds to the above passage. So: AUTHOR, BOOK TITLE, PAGE where it is rewritten ... Where is the direct lie. That is, for example, "only 20% of German divisions were defeated by the Russians on the Eastern Front, and 80% on the Western Front." I promise you a co-author article for your money in the most prestigious foreign publications, I will send you a magazine, you can check everything yourself. Then you will remember all your life how you wiped your nose with the bourgeois falsifiers of history !!!
    1. co-creator
      co-creator 21 January 2018 00: 13
      +2
      Anthony Beaver, John Keegan for example.
      Authors of almost all history textbooks in Western countries. After all, historians also write them.
      1. kalibr
        21 January 2018 12: 10
        0
        What you wrote is NOTHING! Need the title of the work, publisher, PAGE!
        AND TEXTBOOKS do not belong to historical literature! Well, so ... None of the scholars refers to textbooks, although quoting them is allowed. Textbooks are a separate topic. If you want, get busy. All will only thank you. But ... you need the text of the original, then its literal and good translation. Then analysis. There are a lot of examples: Ukraine, the Baltic states, Poland, Germany, England, the USA ... The topic is not high, as you see, for you. Although interesting.
        But I would suggest you a lesson lesson. Read books by Osprey Publishing. Are they available and do you have to start somewhere?
        1. co-creator
          co-creator 21 January 2018 19: 21
          +2
          WHAT DOES ANYTHING MEAN? You asked historians who are rewriting the history of WWII, I gave them to you. Are you a historian, google a little, make an effort on yourself, or is it a big topic for you?

          History books are written by historians; it’s stupid to deny it. If you personally need an analysis, then no one can do it. About how the events of WWII are described in Western educational literature, it has been said many times and understood.

          Quote: kalibr
          But I would suggest you a lesson lesson. Read books by Osprey Publishing. Are they available and do you have to start somewhere?

          rewrite history there too?
  45. co-creator
    co-creator 21 January 2018 18: 46
    +3
    long in stock.,
    Quote: long in stock.
    in the first Chinas they drove. I didn’t say anywhere that it wasn’t. It’s out of your fantasies .. now about the scam .... you said that the British citizen is an Englishman .. got into a puddle and now why are you dragging citizens of 2 grades ... and where is the 2 grade? did you ask this question somewhere? you wag your tail ... now there are mythical zuavas ... that there weren’t them at first then they seemed to be in a microscopic amount .. so are you also a liar? after the fact, you completely managed to do it but admit it in no way .. by this traditional historians will always drive you into the shkonka-alas, you are just stupid. You are trying to expand their krugozor..vse right-fools rule easier ..

    No need to cheat, I always wrote the British. The fact that most Canadians, Australians and British are British (Scots, Welsh) or their descendants is simply a fact. Therefore, there is no difference between them as well as between Muscovites and Khokh. You carefully read what they write to you.
    The French were dragged here when you began to claim that the French served in the Canadian army. I explained to you that second-class people are taken into the army only in small quantities.
    I claimed that they were not? My dear, you are again trying to cheat) Well, I UNDERSTAND THE NUMBER OF ZOUVS YOU DO NOT FINALLY TRUE TRUE)
    Uh, my dear, I’m poking you here in your shit for the second post in a row and you’re not enough. THAT YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH A PLACE UNDER THE SCENCER is your misfortune and you should not tell others about it. Otherwise, you will have to change the nickname to WAS UNDER SCENE.
    To me your insults to the bulb, the more such useful go .. you like the better.
    1. long in stock.
      long in stock. 22 January 2018 09: 38
      0
      you can only poke your finger into the hole yet .. that you are no longer a liar to prove. have you asked me the exact number of zouaves? if so, where? to call it not a problem, there was simply hope for your self-development .. it collapsed .. about Canadians and so it is clear .. it’s you who wrote the British, to which I replied that the British and the British served are not the same .. and where did you get the data about how didn’t they take the French into the British army? did you compose it yourself? did you even know the principle of manning it in those days ... but you’re talking nonsense .. that’s not surprising. you section of alternative history. there you can contemplate as ancient Russians with the help of mammoths e Hypet pyramids are being built. generally everything as you like ..
      1. co-creator
        co-creator 22 January 2018 11: 10
        +2
        Quote: Long in stock.
        you can only poke your finger in the hole ..

        I’m not just poking a person from under the key, but I can do something worse. Just laziness with you leaky polemic on this topic to breed.
        Quote: Long in stock.
        Did you ask me for the exact number of zouaves? if so, where?

        You are also blind)
        Quote: Long in stock.
        it’s you who wrote the British, to which I replied that the British and the British filed are not the same .. and where did you get the information about how they didn’t take the French to the British army? Did you write it yourself?

        I know what a British subject is. People of the second grade cannot be trusted, and the French were just like that in Canada. Above the Indians, but below the former British.


        Quote: Long in stock.
        you don’t even know the principle of acquiring it in those days ..
        I know.
        Quote: Long in stock.
        .Therefore, I am sending you a section of alternative history. There you can contemplate how the ancient Russians are building Egyptian pyramids with the help of mammoths. generally everything as you like ..

        This is you at the wrong place. Although it is interesting and useful to read an alternative story, it is very entertaining adventure literature.
        1. long in stock.
          long in stock. 22 January 2018 18: 28
          0
          I’m me ... you can’t call you in any way ... you can’t and can’t do anything to anyone .. a second-class man ... zero complete in knowledge and skills .. only try to trynnet .. Well, these are not bags tossing around, there are people like you. Biomodor.
          1. co-creator
            co-creator 23 January 2018 15: 30
            +1
            You have the sweetest bomb.
  46. co-creator
    co-creator 24 January 2018 19: 03
    +1
    brn521,
    You mixed everything up. The topic is about the Mongol, not the Indians. You want to compare savages with a regular army.
    Once again, we take 10.000 Indian horses and in Russian open spaces we make a trip of 200-300 km full-length. Then we consider how many horses have died and how many are left.