Military Review

Secret "Contacts"

123



35 years ago, the Israeli armed forces - the IDF for the first time in the world used in combat conditions Tanksequipped with mounted complexes of dynamic protection (NKDZ).

About technique

History the creation of dynamic protection in the domestic sense or explosive reactive armor (explosive reactive armor - ERA) according to foreign, English-language classification began in the USSR about 70 years ago, in the late 40-x, the beginning of 50-x in the depths of the super-secret Soviet defense industry in the form of scattered experimental attempts with counter-explosion energy to counteract cumulative ammunition. The most impressive results were obtained in the 1957 – 1961 years by B. V. Voitsekhovskii and V. L. Istomin in the Novosibirsk Institute of Hydrodynamics. Due to the secrecy of the work carried out, the article of these authors was published in the open press only in 2000-m (“Physics of Combustion and Explosion”), when one of them was no longer alive. The first thesis on dynamic defense was successfully defended at the beginning of 60's by an employee of the All-Union Scientific Research Institute of Steel A.I. Platov, who is also no longer among us. He took an active part in the above studies. Despite 50 and more than the years since that time, the dissertation of Alexander Ivanovich is still not publicly available. It fairly fully investigated the basic parameters of devices that implement a plane-parallel circuit of elements of dynamic protection (EDS) and containing a flat explosive charge, lined with metal plates.

In 1978, the research and development department of 32 (dynamic protection) was created at the All-Russian Scientific Research Institute of Steel. The main task assigned to its employees was not just to study the general issues of interaction of a cumulative jet with a dynamic protection device, but to study the two main options for EHL (plane-parallel and volumetric) with the choice of optimal design parameters of both the EHL itself and its deployment schemes on the armored object. Therefore, when the Israeli tank М1982А48 with the explosive armor complex ERA Blazer, captured by the Syrians during a night battle in the Sultan Yaakub area, was brought to the USSR in the summer of 3, this was not a revelation for the staff of the VNII. All the advantages and disadvantages of the ERA Blazer complex to Soviet developers of dynamic protection were obvious and understandable.

In this regard, at the scientific and technical meeting held at the All-Russian Scientific Research Institute of Steel, based on the results of studying М48А3 with the ERA Blazer complex, it was decided not to copy the Israeli equivalent, but to complete the previously started work on optimizing the mounted dynamic protection device based on a single unified EDZ, which later The index was assigned 4C20.

The main advantages of the EKZ 4C20 of the Soviet NKZD "Contact" before the EHL applied by the Israelis in the ERA Blazer complex were:

unification The single EHL 4C20 was installed on all main armored vehicles protected by armor. On Israeli tanks М48 and М60, equipped with ERA Blazer, there were more than ten EDS of different standard sizes;

a smaller (by 25 – 27%) specific (per unit of protected area) mass;

significantly smaller area of ​​weakened zones. At least eight percent of each ERA Blazer’s EDL design did not contain explosives. When a cumulative jet hit these zones, the e-radiation did not work. In the "Contact" of such zones was no more than one percent;

the possibility of various combinations of installing EDS on the protected armored vehicle. The constructive dimensions made it possible to design the NKDZ “Kontakt” with reference to each armored center of a specific tank so as to ensure the highest possible overlap area of ​​the protected projection;

ability to control the transfer of detonation from the explosives of one EDS to the explosives of another. The technical solutions incorporated into the 4C20 NKZD and subsequent ECD 4C22 built-in dynamic protection complex (VDZ), allow depending on specific requirements or localize the process of detonation of explosives within one EHD, thereby providing a consistent response several ehz. This sets in motion steel plates destroying a cumulative jet or an armor-piercing-sub-caliber projectile (BPS), of a length that provides a sufficient effect on both BPS, and monoblock and tandem ammunition (these technical solutions were protected by an international patent);

greater safety in handling EDS. Apparently, the design of the EDS of the ERA Blazer complex was created in an extremely short time and without due attention to compliance with the safety requirements imposed on explosive products. The author of these lines had a chance to personally observe at the bottom of the onboard toolboxes installed on the body of the trophy М48А3, puddles of elastic explosives that had flowed out of the ERA Blazer's EDZ case under the influence of high June temperatures in the battle zone in the Sultan-Yaakub area. Of course, it is difficult to talk about the high anti-cumulative effectiveness of the Israeli complex, if an explosive has partially leaked out from the EDS installed in it. The fact that in EHL 4C20, 4C22 is simply impossible, well and not to say.

All of the above design differences allowed the developers of the Soviet dynamic protection in 1995 to obtain two patents, reissued from previously secret copyright certificates. Patents No. 2060438 and No. 2064650 protect the copyright of the developers of Soviet dynamic protection for original innovative technical solutions incorporated into the design of domestic EDS and “Contact” complexes.

About ethics

The author considered it his duty to present the above technical details in order to protect the dignity of the developers of the Soviet dynamic protection, about which, in the publication “Steel for Wounds,” it was written without proof that they “adopted the concept of creation” of the Israeli ERA Blazer complex and the design features of the flat EHD. The concept of creating a Soviet dynamic defense began to be developed in 30 – 35 years before the first Lebanese war, in which the IDF used tanks with an ERA Blazer. Many developers of domestic dynamic protection, among which several candidates and doctors of science, are no longer alive, and they cannot adequately respond to such remarks, as well as to statements like derogatory “it turned out to be incomprehensible for specialists of the Scientific and Research Institute of Steel”.

The Israeli ERA Blazer complex was most likely created by foreign experts led by Meir Mayseless at the very end of 70's - early 80's, that is, approximately 25 – 30 years after the work carried out in the USSR at the Institute of Hydrodynamics and VNII Become. It is possible that during the mass repatriation of Soviet Jewish scientists, some of the information about our research was available to Israeli scientists and engineers. I would also like to inform readers of the MIC that in the middle of the 90-s during a visit to the All-Russian Scientific Research Institute, the creator of German dynamic defense, an outstanding ballistic scholar Manfred Held, became familiar with the “top secret” reports on research and development conducted in the USSR in 40 – 60-ies, recognized the Soviet priority in the development of explosive reactive armor.

And more - about technology

Since the adoption of the first systems of dynamic protection - the Israeli ERA Blazer and the Soviet “Contact” more than 30 years have passed. Whole era During this time, both the methods of warfare and the hardware designed for it have radically changed. Accordingly, the role and place of dynamic protection in the protection of armored vehicles. But this is a completely different topic.

The author of the letter relied only on well-known and published information. It would be reasonable and fair to remove the neck of secrecy from works of thirty years and more old, so that the country would finally learn about the creators of the defense potential, many of whom still remain nameless. Immediately there would be less unsubstantiated speculation and derogatory feedback on the work of prominent domestic scientists and engineers.
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https://vpk-news.ru/articles/40682
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  1. svp67
    svp67 13 January 2018 09: 26
    20
    Indeed, there is no longer the country where scientists worked, so moreover, all who could take possession of them, without any shame and conscience, use their designs, but no one was going to tell about their work ...
    1. bouncyhunter
      bouncyhunter 13 January 2018 10: 05
      10
      hi I agree with your sad words. Thanks to the author for the detailed description, specific names and dates.
  2. san4es
    san4es 13 January 2018 09: 47
    +4
    the possibility of various combinations of the EDZ installation on the protected armored object. The design dimensions made it possible to design the NKDZ “Contact” in relation to each armored unit of a particular tank so as to provide the maximum possible overlap area of ​​the protected projection
    soldier
  3. Professor
    Professor 13 January 2018 10: 56
    12
    The Israeli ERA Blazer complex was most likely created by foreign experts led by Meir Mayseless at the very end of the 70's - the beginning of the 80's, that is, about 25-30 years after the work done in the USSR at the Institute of Hydrodynamics and VNII Become. It is possible that during the mass repatriation of Soviet Jewish scientists, some of the information about our research was available to Israeli scientists and engineers.

    1. Mass repatriation began in 1990, i.e. 8 years after the combat use of remote sensing in Lebanon.
    2. The scoop did not let out not only those who worked in secret developments, but even those who could have had the most indirect relation to them.
    3. For the delivery of trophies from Lebanon to the USSR, some received the title of Hero of the Soviet Union. what
    1. Herman 4223
      Herman 4223 13 January 2018 12: 23
      10
      You are mistaken professor.
    2. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 13 January 2018 13: 13
      19
      Quote: Professor
      1. Mass repatriation began in 1990, i.e. 8 years after the combat use of remote sensing in Lebanon.

      Ai-i-ay, professor! But why didn’t you mention 70? What kind of rating (according to the 5-point system) do you give yourself after “familiarizing yourself” with this:
      Mass Jewish emigration from the USSR began in the year 1971. Nowadays, documents are known, including materials of the highest echelon of power structures, which to some extent reveal the mechanism for making and implementing an unusual decision to partially open borders for this ethnic group 2. The Soviet leadership was clearly mistaken, believing that emigration would not take on a mass scale. If in 1970, only one thousand people left the USSR for Israeli visas, then in 1971 there were already 13 thousand, in 1972 more than 31 thousand, and in 1973 more than 34 thousand. After that, the number of exit permits decreased, and in the 1974 year, less than 21 left the USSR with thousands of Jews and their families. In the 1975-1977 years, even less traveled annually - from 13 to 16 thousand people. In the next three years, new growth was observed, and in 1979, the peak of the Jewish emigration of 1970's was marked: more than 51 of thousands who left. Then severe restrictions were again imposed on this emigration. As a result, less than 1982 of thousands of Jews and their families left the USSR during the 1986-7 years. At the beginning of the “perestroika” period, the number of emigration permits increased again, and in the 1987 year more than 8 thousand left the USSR and 1988 in the year 19 thousand. In general, during the 1970-1988 years, approximately 291 one thousand Jews and their families left the USSR .165.000 went to Israel; 126.000-to the USA
      in 1989, 72 thousands of Jews left the USSR, of which 56 thousand (78%) went directly to the United States. The "influx" of Jews from the USSR to the United States turned out to be so massive that Washington decided to impose quotas for the admission of "Soviet" citizens. Do you say that the "mass departure" took place in the 1990 year? PS In 1990, 205 of thousands of people emigrated from the country.
      1. Aaron Zawi
        Aaron Zawi 13 January 2018 14: 21
        +7
        Quote: Nikolaevich I

        Ai-i-ay, professor! But why didn’t you mention 70? What kind of rating (according to the 5-point system) do you give yourself after “familiarizing yourself” with this:
        Mass Jewish emigration from the USSR began in the year 1971.

        Now tell me which of those involved in the military-industrial complex could get a visa to leave the USSR and I personally will be grateful if you name at least one of these scientists.
        1. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 13 January 2018 19: 45
          10
          Quote: Aron Zaavi
          Now tell me which of those involved in the military-industrial complex could get a visa to leave the USSR and I personally will be grateful if you name at least one of these scientists.
          I will also be grateful if you “bring” at least one official document belonging to the Soviet leadership, officially instructing state structures not to give permission for the exit of “defense industry workers”!
          I can agree with the fact that in the USSR there was a special attitude to the "bearers of secrets" (not only to the Jews ...) But this is logical and understandable, given the degree of confrontation between the USSR and the USA ("West"). And what do you think: how “willingly” did the US government let its citizens engaged in classified military projects “go abroad” ... especially to the socialist countries and the USSR? And in Israel, "rejoiced" when, "prominent workers in the Israeli military-industrial complex, asked to the Arab countries in confrontation with Israel? Will you give examples of how the KGB destroyed engineers and scientists working successfully in the Israeli military-industrial complex? And about how "interestingly" prominent engineers, scientists, who came to the "anti-Israeli" Arab countries to work in the military sphere perished - you can write a story!
          But didn’t the Jews leaving the USSR try to grab as many secrets as possible, which could be sold, if not to Israel, then to the USA? Didn’t the “refuseniks” (workers of the Soviet military-industrial complex) try to prepare information bearing the character of military secrets for transmission to the special services of the USA and Israel through those leaving the USSR? Didn’t Nativ try to smuggle “important secretaries” from the socialist countries, from the USSR? (This was written by the former head of "Nativ" Yakov Kedmi (former Yasha Kazakov)
          1. philosopher
            philosopher 14 January 2018 15: 14
            0
            And remember that the development of trade in the USSR in the late period of its existence was put on stream. Perhaps, since we especially didn’t need such far-reaching developments, but they paid well for them abroad. Even random information conveyed as an idea by the right people could be accepted and developed.
      2. Professor
        Professor 13 January 2018 14: 36
        +6
        Quote: Nikolaevich I
        Ai-i-ay, professor! But why didn’t you mention 70? What kind of rating (according to the 5-point system) do you give yourself after “familiarizing yourself” with this:

        Now gather all these numbers together and compare with at least one 1991 year. And then we'll talk about OVIR and refuseniks.

        Quote: Nikolaevich I
        In general, during the 1970-1988 years, approximately 291 one thousand Jews and their families left the USSR .165.000 went to Israel;

        Only in 1990 were 199516 people repatriated to Israel, in 1991 and 176100.
        http://www.cbs.gov.il/shnaton68/st04_02.pdf

        Quote: Pivot
        But didn’t you get an education thanks to the “scoop”? Didn’t you accidentally call mummy Judah?

        Not only. For soviet education, my grandfathers paid in full for the laborer on collective farms for workdays. I graduated in the West. Only in the West nobody reproaches me with this. No one is even trying to hint that they not only paid me education, but also paid a scholarship. Gap template. fellow
        1. Vlad.by
          Vlad.by 13 January 2018 16: 51
          +8
          V. Vysotsky died in 1980.
          I remember he had a song about repatriates ... and long before his death.
        2. Svateev
          Svateev 13 January 2018 18: 54
          12
          Quote: Professor
          I graduated in the West .... not only paid me an education, but also paid a scholarship.

          So this is what you are now working on on this site! yes
        3. Alf
          Alf 13 January 2018 19: 12
          +3
          Quote: Professor
          I graduated in the West.

          And who paid it to you?
        4. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 13 January 2018 20: 20
          +6
          Quote: Professor
          Only in 1990 were 199516 people repatriated to Israel, in 1991 and 176100.

          I turned out to be even “more generous” to you: I indicated that 1990 people left for 205.000! Oh, and you are not attentive. Professor ..... it is clear. Very much scientists are bothering you! About 1991, I didn’t “stutter”; the "sticking date" was precisely the 1990! And what was given to you, 1991 ,, when we said a phrase: you have a “mass exodus of Jews” from the USSR in the year 1990; and I “corrected” you, saying that not only the 1990-m. but the 70-e are officially indicated as the years of the "mass (!) departure of Jews from the USSR" Why are you going beyond the "framework"? And why should I “collect numbers” when I “counted” 291.000 for the period 1970-88 and 72.000 in 1989? Yes, and the "numbers" and where, when the "discussion" began with a different ,, circumstance ,,?. Oh and the absent-mindedness of you .... (!) I understand: the professorship is “obliging” (!), But I wanted to you were more attentive. And about "OVIR and refuseniks" I already spoke with Aron ...
        5. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 13 January 2018 20: 50
          +5
          [quote = professor] that not only paid me education, but also paid a scholarship. Gap template. [/ quot]
          Repatriates (olim) with higher education and graduates make up a significant part of the labor force in Israel. How are these resources used and what is the fate of these people in the labor market? - these are the questions that we will raise in this article.

          Aliya 1990-2003 years significantly changed the professional structure of the population of Israel. In 1989, the country had 22 thousands of engineers and architects, 11 thousands of doctors and 33 thousands of nurses and nurses. Over the next period, 102,4 (!) Thousands of engineers and architects, 22,5 thousands of doctors and 24,7 thousands of nursing staff 3 came here.

          The State Statistics Office of Israel has information on the formation of 401,5 thousands of new immigrants. According to them, 252,9 thousands (62%)? they are specialists with the number of years of training 13 +, and half of them are people who studied for 16 or more years4.

          However, the real employment of new immigrants does not always correspond to their educational level.



          Quote:
          According to the data ... only less than 40% of holders of academic degrees by 2003 worked in positions requiring higher education than average. Less than a third (29,6%) joined the ranks of small-scale employees, trade and service workers. Almost 19,7% (49,7 thousands of people) work as factory and construction workers, and 12,7% of repatriates with higher education - 32,1 thousands of people “retrained” as unskilled workers
          1. Dr_engie
            Dr_engie 16 January 2018 12: 28
            0
            As for education, especially health workers - I can’t say how true this really is, but the director told us at school (he taught us lessons too) about how our domestic education is listed over the hill. And he talked about the fact that often in the same Israel and a number of other countries, our professional education drops by a step, or even two. And that, as a result, graduates of our medical academies and universities, for example, will rarely be hired for a post above the paramedic, not to mention those who trained as nurses, who usually only need nurses.
        6. Korax71
          Korax71 16 January 2018 00: 34
          0
          Professor, you probably do not know much Russian. This is a normal trait of a national character. Although it seems to me that this is more envy.
        7. revnagan
          revnagan 16 January 2018 20: 17
          +3
          Quote: Professor
          I graduated in the West. Only in the West nobody reproaches me with this. Nobody even tries to hint that they not only paid me education, but also paid a scholarship. Gap template.

          There is no gap. Here, emigrate, for example, to China, take citizenship, hand over a bunch of Israeli military secrets to the Chinese and pour dirt on the country and citizens where you received the second highest. Here then the "purity of the experiment" will be like in the first case, and you will find out about myself a lot of new things from the lips of their current fellow citizens.
      3. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 13 January 2018 20: 32
        +9
        PS Were there cases in the history of Nativa when the secret service contributed to the illegal departure of Jewish refuseniks from the USSR?
        - Yes. This happened almost until the collapse of the Soviet Union. And so we helped Jews not only from the USSR. I well remember these cases. Especially the latter, because he was the last. I perfectly remember the tension at all stages of that operation and the report from every point - right up to the time I received a message that people were already on the plane that flew to Israel. As a rule, all operations went well according to plan and without any surprises. (Yakov Kedmi)
        In Italy, where the emigrants were about six months before the completion of the emigration process, the largest line was for the US special services. People walked of their own free will to talk about what they knew or assumed. And especially to inform one another. "
        "What would Israel look like without the million Jews who came to it from the USSR and the countries that grew up on its ruins? Our economy would be weaker by 25%, if not more. Without a high-tech industry. Without 20% of soldiers in combat units. With a completely different political system and demography. " (Jacob Kedmi)
    3. Pivot
      Pivot 13 January 2018 14: 09
      10
      But didn’t you get an education thanks to the “scoop”? Didn’t you accidentally call mummy Judah?
      1. Aaron Zawi
        Aaron Zawi 13 January 2018 14: 23
        +8
        Quote: Pivot
        But didn’t you get an education thanks to the “scoop”? Didn’t you accidentally call mummy Judah?

        People get education thanks to parents who either instilled a desire to study or not.
        1. Alf
          Alf 13 January 2018 19: 13
          +4
          Quote: Aron Zaavi
          People get education thanks to parents who either instilled a desire to study or not.

          The desire to learn and the opportunity to learn are completely different things.
          1. karish
            karish 14 January 2018 12: 33
            0
            Quote: Alf
            Quote: Aron Zaavi
            People get education thanks to parents who either instilled a desire to study or not.

            The desire to learn and the opportunity to learn are completely different things.

            IN THE USSR ? Everyone had the opportunity yes
            And here is the desire laughing
            1. Dr_engie
              Dr_engie 16 January 2018 12: 31
              0
              Not at all, as now. In fact, if you need to go to another settlement to get an education, consider this to be no longer an option. Unless it is a village school, where children from the surrounding villages are picked up and transported by bus.
        2. Lex.
          Lex. 14 January 2018 19: 50
          0
          Who has rich parents in Israel is very expensive to get an education, even a course is very expensive in the USSR as far as I know education was free and of high quality. In Israel, you constantly hire teachers to let children know better
          1. Dr_engie
            Dr_engie 16 January 2018 12: 32
            0
            Do not worry, this is also the case in our country. Unless the child sits burying itself in books until night.
      2. Shahno
        Shahno 13 January 2018 14: 33
        +5
        Here, either you have a desire to learn and develop, or not ... And if you are already hinting at nationality. That Jews are the people of the Book, and the craving of many is "in the blood." We, for example, constantly have people, specialists officially and not officially study and retrain on private and state ones. courses up to 70 years. Without this, you cannot grow and advance ...
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 13 January 2018 15: 36
          +9
          He hints at the money Evil Scoop paid for education
          1. Professor
            Professor 13 January 2018 15: 51
            +8
            Quote: Spade
            He hints at the money Evil Scoop paid for education

            My grandfathers plowed the money on the collective farm despite the disability. They did not even give a grateful scoop to them. I will not forget how my cousin, the Gold medalist was brought down on an essay in Odessa Medina for the fifth column. I will never forget how the bourgeoisie accepted my red diploma (by the way, they forced me to take the statistics exam because they didn’t teach statistics in the scoop of engineers, hello to Gauss and its distribution) and paid me a scholarship, such that it was not necessary to unload wagons at night.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 13 January 2018 16: 02
              10
              Quote: Professor
              Money paid by my grandfathers plowing on the farm

              I'm afraid they haven’t earned so much.
              Quote: Professor
              I will not forget how my cousin, the Gold medalist was brought down on an essay in Odessa Medina for the fifth column.

              The evil scoop did not want to pay for the education of specialists for another state?

              Quote: Professor
              I will never forget how the bourgeoisie accepted my red diploma

              Great mercy. After all, the education from Scoop by default can not be good, it is too totalitarian.
              1. Shahno
                Shahno 13 January 2018 16: 11
                +2
                I don’t know who earned it. Well it was worth 500 thousand current rubles. My family (my grandfather, my parents) ... because of the mess of the late eighties and nineties, not less than the amount was lost. So even.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 13 January 2018 16: 21
                  12
                  Quote: Shahno
                  My family (my grandfather, my parents) ... because of the mess of the late eighties and nineties, not less than the amount was lost. So even.

                  Bye bye. Not so fast. This is entirely the merit of those very noble democrats that this scoop with rapture destroyed. Moreover, your family’s money was taken away under the wise guidance of specialists from the Light of Democracy. I remember that another scandal occurred over the fact that they put a small fraction of the "property of the Scoop" on their pocket. According to the American Themis, they should not have done this, working for money am. taxpayers
                  1. Shahno
                    Shahno 13 January 2018 16: 33
                    +1
                    Yes, known facts. But you understand. I expressed the opinion of a specific family, a person .. I do not think that it is important to him who is to blame. The result is important. And the most interesting. And how much has now changed in relation to the state of a person with you. Don't blame, don't blame, ask ...
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 13 January 2018 16: 51
                      10
                      Quote: Shahno
                      The result is important.

                      Exactly. And the bottom line is the Terrible Tovarisch Scoop paid for the education, and the Beautiful Lady Democracy in white clothes professionally cleaned the pockets of your family.

                      And here I am personally at a loss. Why the Scoop is terrible at the same time, and Democracy is beautiful.
                      1. Shahno
                        Shahno 13 January 2018 18: 03
                        0
                        Who told you that she was beautiful? But at least he respects the person. If you're talking about Israeli democracy ... I won’t tell you for the states.
                2. Vlad.by
                  Vlad.by 13 January 2018 16: 59
                  +8
                  Poor, you are poor!
                  Everyone offends you. The Germans are Holocaust, Russians are felled on exams, Muslims are cutting ...
                  Not only is the malice completely the same in Jewish views, it’s also
                  for no reason at all. Well, you are white and fluffy, one good from you.
                  1. Shahno
                    Shahno 13 January 2018 17: 14
                    +2
                    Again, I do not think that anyone needs to be forgiven for illegally depriving property or money. And who is responsible for this, is it not the state to which the person has entrusted the right to protect their interests? I served and defended him honestly, like ... And my grandfather and father ... So do not. What he gave, he took it. And nationality has nothing to do with it. And we are not poor. We need to get even. An eye for an eye.
                    1. Vlad.by
                      Vlad.by 15 January 2018 01: 23
                      0
                      Well, it took away, of course, much more ...
                      Who are you going to get with?
                      Probably with the Russians, "what did Auschwitz not arrange"?
                3. Alf
                  Alf 13 January 2018 19: 16
                  +6
                  Quote: Shahno
                  Well, it was worth 500 thousand current rubles

                  Just ? So go find them.
                  Quote: Shahno
                  My family (my grandfather, my parents) ... because of the mess of the late eighties and nineties, not less than the amount was lost.

                  Did the Jewish family lose money? Tomorrow I’ll tell the peasants, we’ll laugh together.
                  Quote: Shahno
                  So even.

                  And who ruined something?
                  1. passerby5
                    passerby5 16 January 2018 14: 15
                    0
                    And really - who? and who taxied then, at the beginning of shit democracy?
              2. Professor
                Professor 13 January 2018 17: 33
                +5
                Quote: Spade
                I'm afraid they haven’t earned so much.

                True? For 30 years of work on the collective farm did not earn a grandson on education? My grandmother worked as a teacher all my life in the village. During the war in the orphanage in Uzbekistan she worked and did not earn a grandson for one course of a sovogo university? My other grandmother spent all her life on a farm on a collective farm without getting paid and this was not enough for my grandson for a couple more courses?

                By the way, with the scoop, those who left "the most free country in the world" were required to pay a tax for education. The Levich family, for example, had to pay more than 100,000 rubles for it, which amounted to about seventy annual engineering salaries. In response, the scoop received the Jackson-Vanik Amendment and has sunk into oblivion.

                Julius Kosharovsky
                Chapter 26 Education Tax and Jackson-Vanik Amendment


                The scoop was not alone with similar taxes. Ceausescu followed the example of the scoop and also began to charge a tax on education from leaving. Thanks to Joint for helping me with the money.

                Quote: Spade
                The evil scoop did not want to pay for the education of specialists for another state?

                Me and my relatives were citizens of another state? Please fight for the scoop, but you will manage to study at the university. Jews were not taken to mehmat, MGIMO and MVTU im. Bauman because the Jews were not citizens of the USSR or just citizens of the second grade? My sister still lives on the territory of the former scoop and is not going to leave.

                Quote: Spade
                Great mercy. After all, the education from Scoop by default can not be good, it is too totalitarian.

                A good education in the scoop was a rarity. With us (in a university of union subordination) from the full-time department I would issue diplomas to every fifth. The rest had fun from session to session, and the session itself was handed over with a creak. It wasn’t even funny how Termekh and Sopromat were handed over, but how “Structural Mechanics of a Ship” and “Ship’s Rocking on an Irregular Wave” is just a tragedy. “And what, should I expel all now?” - said the dean to our professor.
                About evening and correspondence students in general, you can write books. The average level of their knowledge is close to absolute zero. And their diploma is the same as mine. except that of a different color. It is not surprising that Soviet diplomas are not quoted in the West and it is not surprising that some still believe that "any mistake obeys the normal law" and "Everything obeys the normal law."
                I have already written more than once that I personally had the opportunity to compare the level of training here and there. But who cares about the details? Everyone is indignant at how Russian universities do not fall into the first hundreds of universities, whether it is Shanghai or bourgeois. And then they make a helpless gesture when it turns out how many Russian students study at least in England.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 13 January 2018 17: 57
                  +8
                  Quote: Professor
                  True? Over 30 years of work on a collective farm, a grandson did not earn an education?

                  Collective farm. At best, they worked for themselves. Well, in the most probable way, they received the funds themselves from the Terrible Scoop.

                  Quote: Professor
                  The Levic family, for example, was supposed to pay over 100,000 rubles for it.

                  Well, by democratic standards, this is absolutely fair, isn't it?

                  Quote: Professor
                  Me and my relatives were citizens of another state? Please fight for the scoop, but you will manage to study at the university.

                  The scoop was worried about you. In order not to have to pay the very same 100,000 rubles

                  Quote: Professor
                  A good education in the scoop was a rarity.

                  I agree. Otherwise, those whose errors do not obey the normal law would not have appeared.

                  Quote: Professor
                  I have already written more than once that I personally had the opportunity to compare the level of training here and there.

                  In Israel, apparently, is even worse.
                  1. Professor
                    Professor 13 January 2018 18: 32
                    +3
                    Quote: Spade
                    Collective farm. At best, they worked for themselves. Well, in the most probable way, they received the funds themselves from the Terrible Scoop.

                    Yeah, to myself, And all the city people ate the holy spirit.

                    Quote: Spade
                    Well, by democratic standards, this is absolutely fair, isn't it?

                    Not. Since me, none of the bourgeois has demanded a refund of tuition fees and has not restricted their movement.

                    Quote: Spade
                    The scoop was worried about you. In order not to have to pay the very same 100,000 rubles

                    And behind the fence in Mordovia, we would be even more protected from the outside world. Take care so take care.

                    Quote: Spade
                    I agree. Otherwise, those whose errors do not obey the normal law would not have appeared.

                    Right In the scoop, simply all other distributions were considered hostile and harmful to the DKY of the proletariat. Weibull distribution was considered the most harmful. Everything was "normal" in the scoop. wassat

                    Quote: Spade
                    In Israel, apparently, is even worse.

                    If you are so smart, why are you so poor? (joke) wink

                    In Israel, not everything is perfect with education, BUT:
                    1. No one (from the word at all) didn’t go to college or university to pass or take a test.
                    2. No one bought a diploma from a local university
                    3. Israeli universities are unattainably higher than yours in international rankings despite the country's population and teaching in Hebrew ..
                    4. Diplomas from Israeli universities are quoted all over the world.
                    5. Graduates of Israeli universities freely do post-docs at leading universities in the world.
                    1. Alf
                      Alf 13 January 2018 19: 19
                      +4
                      Quote: Professor
                      Since me, none of the bourgeois has demanded a refund of tuition

                      And who paid for your education? State? Or you ?
                2. Svateev
                  Svateev 13 January 2018 19: 08
                  +8
                  Quote: Professor
                  Please fight for the scoop, but you will manage to study at the university.

                  Professor, do you consider yourself offended? This is your personal problem. I now know several Jews with higher Soviet education, respected people live, work successfully and do not consider themselves offended. True, there was a problem in one family: two sons left for Israel, having heard enough of 90’s agitators from (what’s the name of your compatriots office there?) Now both prodigal sons have returned, having lost their grandmother’s apartment in Israel (money from selling her). Now the youngest is graduating from a university (in Israel, for some reason it did not work out). And the "evil Russia" is completing the returnee ...
                  1. Professor
                    Professor 14 January 2018 08: 05
                    +2
                    Quote: Svateev
                    Professor, do you consider yourself offended?

                    Smart people do not take offense, but draw conclusions. I made conclusions and left the scoop forever. Physically and mentally. As a result, I live well (which I also wish for you), and the scoop ...

                    Quote: Svateev
                    Now the youngest is graduating from a university (in Israel, for some reason it did not work out). And the "evil Russia" is completing the returnee ...

                    1. Because in Israel, the requirements for applicants and students are much higher than in Russia. With us and the certificate of maturity EMNIP receive only 60% of school graduates and because they are stupid, but because of the high requirements. By the way, Israel does not recognize Russian matriculation certificates. Swiss recognizes, but not Russian. Guess the reason three times.
                    2. If the “returnee” is a citizen of Russia, then what are your complaints?
                    1. philosopher
                      philosopher 14 January 2018 15: 21
                      0
                      Let me just leave mentally, what makes us return to the legacy of the “scoop”? Or do you not consider Russia as such?
                      And yet ... I am familiar with the ideas of your people ... Tell me, is it not shameful for you to communicate with "not like that" when you have a choice?
                    2. Svateev
                      Svateev 9 February 2018 19: 01
                      +1
                      Quote: Professor
                      Israel does not recognize Russian matriculation certificates. .. Guess the reason three times.

                      I guess one time: the traitor always hates the one whom he betrayed.
                      1. Professor
                        Professor 9 February 2018 19: 12
                        0
                        Quote: Svateev
                        Quote: Professor
                        Israel does not recognize Russian matriculation certificates. .. Guess the reason three times.

                        I guess one time: the traitor always hates the one whom he betrayed.

                        Do not guess. Swiss or Italian recognizes, but not Russian. You have two more attempts.
              3. karish
                karish 14 January 2018 12: 35
                +2
                Quote: Spade
                I'm afraid they haven’t earned so much.

                Have your parents earned your education?
              4. Dr_engie
                Dr_engie 16 January 2018 12: 35
                0
                Is a red diploma a type with fives, or in this context a totalitarian socialist diploma with a hammer and sickle on the cover?
            2. Lex.
              Lex. 14 January 2018 19: 54
              0
              My grandfathers paid money
              That in Israel we had honey alone in the 70s, though later we all came back quickly thanks to America, if it hadn’t helped, then Israel would have lived worse than in the “scoop”
          2. Aaron Zawi
            Aaron Zawi 13 January 2018 16: 56
            +2
            Quote: Spade
            He hints at the money Evil Scoop paid for education

            And our parents did not pay anything in the USSR?
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 13 January 2018 17: 02
              +8
              Quote: Aron Zaavi
              And our parents did not pay anything in the USSR?

              My parents paid the USSR. Mom treated, father fought.
              Well, my brother and I did not get higher education anymore. 8))) Few people in the know have already received the Russian “secondary military, higher civilian” with the condition of practicing, in the second year they signed the contract, five years after graduation. It turns out, in fact, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation was the first in the country to switch to a fully commercial education.
              1. Lock36
                Lock36 13 January 2018 18: 45
                +4
                Quote: Spade
                Few people in the know have already received the Russian “secondary military, higher civilian” with the condition of working out, in the second year they signed the contract, five years after graduation.

                Is it possible from now on in more detail? I don’t know either. This is when this happened? I graduated in 1990 - we didn’t have anything like that.
                1. passerby5
                  passerby5 16 January 2018 14: 24
                  0
                  Not only in the specified military was. there were so-called scholars, that is, in the direction from the enterprises. they were paid a scholarship. and they had to work out a certain period of time under the contract
              2. karish
                karish 14 January 2018 12: 42
                +2
                Quote: Spade
                My parents paid the USSR. Mom treated, father fought.

                USSR - what is this bag of money? Santa Claus or what?
                And did you take the money from the USSR?
                Quote: Spade
                Well, my brother and I did not get higher education anymore.

                And for how much?
                Quote: Spade
                Few people in the know have already received the Russian “secondary military, higher civil” with the condition of working out, in the second year they signed a contract, five years after graduation

                It seems that before there was no distribution system and compulsory testing after graduating from a technical school, university or university.
                Work 3 years.
                Quote: Spade
                It turns out, in fact, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation was the first in the country to switch to a fully commercial education.

                Do not tell tales to yourself, the MO — in fact it is releasing servicemen who are obliged to go to serve where they send them — he signed up for it.
                For this he had the opportunity at 45 to retire and have various nishtyaki that civilians could not even dream of.
                But civilians 100% paid for their training by working off (in your language).
                This is not about taxes and everything else - which my parents paid and which went to the budget of that USSR - from which
                Quote: Spade
                My parents paid the USSR. Mom treated, father fought.

                By the way, servicemen in the USSR did not pay income tax.
                This is the question of who kept whom.
            2. Alf
              Alf 13 January 2018 19: 20
              +3
              Quote: Aron Zaavi
              And our parents did not pay anything in the USSR?

              My no. The state honestly taught for free. Or do you consider gifts to teachers a tuition fee?
              1. Aaron Zawi
                Aaron Zawi 13 January 2018 20: 51
                +1
                Quote: Alf

                My no. The state honestly taught for free. Or do you consider gifts to teachers a tuition fee?

                Taxes.
                1. Alf
                  Alf 13 January 2018 21: 00
                  +5
                  Quote: Aaron Zawi
                  Quote: Alf

                  My no. The state honestly taught for free. Or do you consider gifts to teachers a tuition fee?

                  Taxes.

                  But in Israel do not pay taxes? For these taxes, doesn’t Israel have an education system?
                  1. karish
                    karish 14 January 2018 12: 44
                    +1
                    Quote: Alf
                    But in Israel do not pay taxes? For these taxes, doesn’t Israel have an education system?

                    Taxes are paid everywhere, but it doesn’t mean at all that they receive the same level of services (from the state)
        2. Svateev
          Svateev 13 January 2018 18: 56
          +2
          Quote: Shahno
          We, for example, constantly have people, specialists officially and not officially study and retrain

          Have you taken a retraining system from the USSR?
      3. Lock36
        Lock36 13 January 2018 18: 44
        +6
        Shaw Vi, how could Vi think this? Don’t tell our slippers - the state, which for nothing taught them for nothing - is all the parents!
        1. karish
          karish 14 January 2018 12: 45
          +1
          Quote: Lock36
          Shaw Vi, how could Vi think this? Don’t tell our slippers - the state, which for nothing taught them for nothing - is all the parents!

          There is nothing for nothing.
          1. Lock36
            Lock36 14 January 2018 20: 45
            +2
            It happens when the balance is shifted to one side.
            For example, a country teaches you for free, educates, treats, hoping that you then still repay the debt.
      4. Korax71
        Korax71 16 January 2018 00: 46
        0
        Thanks to America and Germany, at one time the USSR carried out industrialization in such a short time that it helped prepare for war. The same Americans created a school of industrial architecture in the USSR. How many high-class specialists they prepared ???? I don’t see the line to thank them, something no appreciation is visible.
    4. SPLV
      SPLV 14 January 2018 12: 37
      +2
      Quote: Professor
      Scoop did not let out

      Professor! With your status and literacy, I suggest a more respectful attitude to the homeland of many members of the forum. Name of state -
      THE USSR. Not to face you.
      1. zoolu350
        zoolu350 15 January 2018 05: 54
        +4
        He is an enemy (moreover, a shifter), so he does not need to expect respect from him for a country that gave him everything, but as soon as it became difficult for him, he dumped him where 5 point is warmer.
        1. Dalailama
          Dalailama 15 January 2018 06: 30
          0
          Israelite is offended.
      2. Korax71
        Korax71 16 January 2018 01: 08
        0
        Honestly, why don’t you show an example of respectful attitude? I don’t specifically mean you. Just read the comments. I don’t understand where there is so much bile and anger in people under the tricolor. It’s not the koment, the Jews, the Yankees are to blame. Although there is a capital the truth is that each person himself is the smith of his own happiness. well, and misfortune too.
  4. Cer59
    Cer59 13 January 2018 11: 23
    +2
    The joker author .... \
    The first model of dynamic defense of the USSR was created at the KBM in the city of Kolomna, approximately in 1961 or 1962. Until 1969 A. Kh. Babadzhanyan was run-in (1969-1977 - A. Kh. Babadzhanyan - Marshal of the armored forces (until April 1975), the chief marshal of the armored forces.) Having familiarized himself with the samples, he spoke out against their use. they say they spoil the view of the tank. I can not say for sure how true it is, but I knew about this fact back in 1971.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 13 January 2018 12: 11
      0
      Quote: Cer59
      The first example of the dynamic defense of the USSR was created at the KBM in the city of Kolomna

      ?
      And here is Kolomna from which side? They are "rocket launchers", and could not have anything to do with this topic.
      They could be related to creating active defense. And they seemed to have it. But not to dynamic, this is absolutely not their profile.
    2. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 13 January 2018 19: 56
      +3
      I personally do not care who was the first in DZ. Let the USSR. More interesting is the application and development.
      DZ has many disadvantages. This is a moody kind of protection. Enough gap of half a centimeter between the boxes or the wrong angle of attack and DZ does not work or does not work so well. Explosives require careful maintenance, inspections, and replacements.
      Against OBPSov DZ is not very effective. It is necessary to conduct a discussion about this, and not about which design bureau was the first to make experiments.
      1. karabas-barabas
        karabas-barabas 14 January 2018 15: 58
        0
        Quote: voyaka uh
        Against OBPSov DZ little effective


        It seems that the Ukrainian DZ Knife holds OBPS, as the episode from Debaltseve showed. So dill Bulat repelled the hit in the OBPS Tower T-72B3 with the DZ Knife block and was able to destroy the T-73B3 with return fire. In general, in my opinion, the Ukrainian DZ Knife and Doublet is currently the most effective and versatile system.
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 14 January 2018 16: 38
          0
          May be. The "Knife" has a complex structure.
          His premise is that the "crowbar" flies horizontally and
          "stumbles" on several small charges, which, when exploding, "attack"
          to his side, deflecting and destroying.
          Against kumma, I think, the efficiency of the Knife is less.
          In Israel, after the not too successful use of DZ against OBPS in Lebanon in 1982
          relied on Merkava for passive ceramic armor (metal-ceramic hinged panels). But recently, they began to combine panels with DZ.
        2. Blackgrifon
          Blackgrifon 14 January 2018 19: 34
          +1
          Quote: karabas-barabas
          Damask steel repelled the hit in the OBPS T-72B3 Tower with the DZ Knife unit and was able to destroy the T-73B3 with return fire

          And who is the source? Lostarmore does not contain information about 72B3 destroyed near Debaltsev.
          By the way, Knife was very strongly criticized for its complexity and inefficiency. Contact-5 and Relic are better in this regard: they are interchangeable and give a more or less high chance of surviving when a car is damaged.
    3. Vlad.by
      Vlad.by 14 January 2018 01: 32
      0
      Babajanyan spoke much more specifically! And not the sight of the tank embarrassed him, but the very presence of explosives on the armor.
      "... What are you offering some kind of" bullshit! "Go to hell, while I command - I won’t let you put explosives on the armor, to hell! ..."
      Great and mighty in quotation marks replace within the meaning.
      Marshal Babajanyan became the head of the armored forces in May 1969, went to the "Paradise Group" in 1975, and died in 1977.
      Because of this incident, DZ in the USSR was adopted only in the 80s.
      1. passerby5
        passerby5 16 January 2018 14: 31
        0
        Yes, this is not an incident, it is not even a lack of education -... what should I call it? hmm ... in general: as I hope partupey, so dumb and dumb
  5. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 13 January 2018 11: 35
    +7
    I believe that the author is right in his opinion that it is time to declassify many materials of the "past", especially 20-30 of a year ago! Indeed, because of this secrecy, we do not really know the history of the development of military equipment in a number of "areas". For example, I would love to read: 1.On the history of the creation of tank KAZs ("Tent", "Rain" ...); 2.On the development of "reactive armor" .. There are also questions ... For example, in the Research Institute They began to work on the cumulative elements of remote sensing, but failed to achieve acceptable efficiency ... why did it "suddenly" succeed (?) (At least according to the statements of ukro-specialists) to Ukraine with its "knife"? (By the way, ukro-KAZ "Barrier" is also terribly reminiscent of the experienced Soviet KAZ "Rain"); 3. I wanted to learn more about the ATGMs of Nadiradze, created back in the 50's. Indeed, according to some characteristics, etiPTURs (or, more precisely, UPSs ...), are superior, even to modern USSR / RF "devices"! "How is it for you" - UPS-7 with radio command-television guidance or UPS with "range" up to 30 km! And there were also “OCA” -2,164,135 of another design bureau ... And who knows in detail the 82-mm Nadiradze “reactive” gun or the experienced “active” PG-6 grenade launcher? Now there are reports about the alleged development of guided (correctable) 57-mm artillery shells for artillery sets "Derivation" (in Sweden they are developing an 57-mm artillery shell with a dual-mode seeker) Are there many who know that the designer Nadiradze at one time (very quite a while!) was developed a controlled 57-mm artillery shell? Etc. , etc. ... There are many "white spots" that are of interest to us ...
  6. tank64rus
    tank64rus 13 January 2018 12: 37
    +2
    This is an intellectual property issue. Unfortunately, its protection, as well as the inventors, is disregard, i.e. there are many interested parties for whom the use of patents without paying them brings billions. Abroad, this is a huge and richest industry where a huge staff of lawyers, patent attorneys and others. We have everything on the contrary there is nothing, just wishes. An example of the lack of a patent for a Kalashnikov assault rifle is damage to tens of billions, but things are still there.
  7. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 13 January 2018 13: 43
    +4
    Quote: Professor
    The Israeli ERA Blazer complex was most likely created by foreign experts led by Meir Mayseless at the very end of the 70's - the beginning of the 80's, that is, about 25-30 years after the work done in the USSR at the Institute of Hydrodynamics and VNII Become. It is possible that during the mass repatriation of Soviet Jewish scientists, some of the information about our research was available to Israeli scientists and engineers.

    1. Mass repatriation began in 1990, i.e. 8 years after the combat use of remote sensing in Lebanon.
    2. The scoop did not let out not only those who worked in secret developments, but even those who could have had the most indirect relation to them.
    3. For the delivery of trophies from Lebanon to the USSR, some received the title of Hero of the Soviet Union. what

    Here's a storyteller! They fled before! What prevented a Jew from transmitting top-secret data against guarantees of a future exit with the opening of an account in a Western bank? Nothing! After
    such cases issued a secret order for certain specialties not to take Jews and Poles. They stupidly fell on exams. If they couldn’t fill up, then they took it aside and talked about replacing the specialty ...
    1. Professor
      Professor 13 January 2018 14: 51
      +4
      Quote: Dzafdet
      Here's a storyteller! They fled before! What prevented a Jew from transmitting top-secret data against guarantees of a future exit with the opening of an account in a Western bank? Nothing! After
      such cases issued a secret order for certain specialties not to take Jews and Poles. They stupidly fell on exams. If they couldn’t fill up, then they took it aside and talked about replacing the specialty ...

      Are you implying that the Jews are traitors and that the scoop was state anti-Semitism?
      On this topic, DZ appeared on Soviet tanks only after the delivery of the trophy from Lebanon to Moscow. Such is the harsh truth of life.
      1. Svateev
        Svateev 13 January 2018 19: 17
        +6
        Quote: Professor
        the harsh truth of life.

        The truth of life is that you again replace the thesis ... The article talks about our priority in the development of remote sensing, and not in combat use. Have you managed to slap the current DZ from the stolen in the USSR and apply it in battle? Well, well done, nobody takes this from you. We don’t need someone else’s. We have enough of our achievements.
        1. Professor
          Professor 14 January 2018 08: 52
          +2
          Quote: Svateev
          The truth of life is that you again replace the thesis ... The article talks about our priority in the development of remote sensing, and not in combat use. Have you managed to slap the current DZ from the stolen in the USSR and apply it in battle? Well, well done, nobody takes this from you. We don’t need someone else’s. We have enough of our achievements.

          It’s like in a joke: “And you say.” Our scientists developed a remote sensing system in the 19 century in the Ottoman Empire, but they kept secret the development so that it would not fall into the hands of the Janissaries and they would use it on their horses. wassat

          Quote: Vlad.by
          And who speaks of betrayal in relation to the Jews? Moreover, for some it’s a traitor, for others it’s a hero.

          see comment above.

          Quote: Vlad.by
          Sorry, but the national interests of your tribe, with rare exceptions, always come first. You are brought up from the cradle. And they constantly hammer into the head that besides family and friends there is something higher, Jewish. You are a caste, with your limitations and preferences, both in choosing a profession and in choosing a wife ...

          And for your tribe, the most important thing is not a family?

          Quote: Vlad.by
          As mom says, so be it. And smart people will tell her.

          Mother has more experience and family is the main thing for us. Do you ask your mother for advice?

          Quote: Vlad.by
          Does Misha have a good ear? Let him study music ... And Misha will be playing the violin all his childhood and his whole life afterwards. Is not it?

          Why disappear talent Misha? Better to learn to play the violin. And when and when the Black Hundreds once again trample us, Misha’s burden will not put pressure on our shoulders.

          Quote: Vlad.by
          And that is probably good. For Zion. Do you really care about the opinions of the others?

          Not. Are you interested in our opinion?

          Quote: Vlad.by
          And when the Union finally understood this - indeed, certain restrictions touched the Jews.

          "Certain restrictions" are called anti-Semitism. Not a reason for pride. Now you have what you have. To be treated by virtue of "certain restrictions", come to us. And so Dr. Feldman would have treated in Bobruisk and would have lived better and longer, and would not have chosen all over the world to treat their children abroad.

          Quote: Vlad.by
          And as it turned out, it was not in vain. Otherwise, Israel would now be a storehouse of Soviet classified technical information. And so, many still managed not to release.

          As a Zionist, I absolutely agree with you. Would not oppress the Jews from you, so look and coal would create from you, but in America. And so in the period from 1990-2014 you have given us about 1200000 not the worst citizens. By the way, in the 2016 and 2017 years, Russia (not Ukraine where the war is going on) became the leader in the number of repatriates to Israel. 7192 and 7188 respectively. Thank you for that. hi

          http://www.newsru.co.il/israel/29dec2016/aliya_70
          7.html
          http://newsru.co.il/israel/08jan2018/rep2017.html
          1. Alf
            Alf 14 January 2018 10: 19
            +3
            Quote: Professor
            You would not oppress the Jews

            You were not oppressed, you were put in place.
          2. Vlad.by
            Vlad.by 14 January 2018 11: 15
            +3
            And why are you so worn with your anti-Semitism?
            For some reason, nobody blames about anti-Russianism, and many more perished because of all sorts of oppression, wars, and blockades.
            At the same time, the Russians somehow calmly and “tolerantly” regard the fact that the most terrible social and political disasters came to Russia through Marx, Engels, Kirov, Sverdlov, Trotsky and the like. Alas, awareness of this fact alone is quite sufficient for manifestations of anti-Semitism. We left alive, healthy, educated, with parents and safe and sound children and rejoice. In “evil” and “anti-Semitic” Russia there were no pogroms against Jews since 1914-17, thank God. This is not a civilized Europe for you and especially the Muslim world.
            Live so beautifully and live. And then do not go into such terrible "anti-Semitic" Russian-language forums.
            No need to tell us how bad we are. We can even get worse.
            1. karish
              karish 14 January 2018 13: 03
              +3
              Quote: Vlad.by
              And why are you so worn with your anti-Semitism?

              Yes, we do not rush - read your comments
              Quote: Vlad.by
              For some reason, nobody blames about anti-Russianism,

              I don’t know about anti-Russianism, but somehow everything is turned upside down.
              Jews flee to Israel from anti-Semitism - it’s clear, logically, the direction is known, the numbers speak for themselves.
              But with all the anti-Russianism in the West (as it is everywhere presented), for some reason Russians are not fleeing from the West to Russia, but quite the opposite.
              Explain this incident?

              Quote: Vlad.by
              At the same time, the Russians somehow calmly and “tolerantly” regard the fact that the most terrible social and political disasters came to Russia through Marx, Engels, Kirov, Sverdlov, Trotsky and the like.

              Well, Marx and Engels, then what side?
              But Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky and all his gang --- in the place of the Russians I would have brought to clean water, with all this communist codla.
              Strange, you are ready to run after the whole country for gays, and you are tolerant of real killers.

              Quote: Vlad.by
              Alas, awareness of only this fact is quite enough for manifestations of anti-Semitism

              I have heard this tale for a long time that in Russia everything is ruled by Jews, and Russians have endured this for decades, due to their tolerance.
              Quote: Vlad.by
              . We left alive, healthy, educated, with parents and safe and sound children and rejoice.

              And why should they be sick, poor and uneducated?
              Quote: Vlad.by
              In the "evil" and "anti-Semitic" Russia there were no pogroms against Jews since 1914-17,

              learn materiel
              Of the total number of 1 cases of anti-Jewish protests during the Civil War, 236 were committed by units of the Red Army. In Ukraine, as a result of pogroms carried out by all warring parties, from 106 to 50 thousand Jews were killed, about 200 thousand were wounded and mutilated, several tens of thousands of women were raped. It is believed that even these figures are underestimated. Pogroms on the part of the Soviet military units took place from 200 to 1918 and in most cases were expressed in the form of robberies, although in some cases they were accompanied by significant casualties.

              During the retreat of the Red Army units from Ukraine under the onslaught of the Germans in the spring of 1918, they organized pogroms under the slogan “Beat the Jews and the Bourgeoisie!”; at the same time, 88 people were killed in Novgorod-Seversky, and 25 people were killed in the Middle - Buda. The Red Army pogroms in Ukraine continued in 1919, the largest pogroms of this year committed by the Red Army were:

              1) Pogrom in Rosava on March 3. After the peasants killed the commander of the Red Army unit, the Red Army carried out a pogrom as punishment for this, accusing the Jews of hostile attitude towards the Soviet regime. They demanded money, gold and silver from the Jews and killed them.

              2) In Uman, the 8th Soviet partisan regiment was engaged in robberies, which was considered as a significant military force against the rebel movement. On March 22, this regiment carried out robberies, then on May 22, the regiment re-arrived in Uman immediately after the terrible pogrom from the gangs. Mass robberies and violence against the Jewish population began again.

              3) There were pogroms in Obukhov (May 7 - from the 6th Soviet Regiment) and in the Cellar (May 18). A large pogrom occurred in Theofipol of the Volyn province (June 29) - according to the report, the 4th Tarashchansky regiment of the 2nd cavalry brigade defeated the Petlyura military unit and occupied the town. Then the soldiers began to rob and kill (up to 300 dead; up to 150 houses burned)
              1. Vlad.by
                Vlad.by 14 January 2018 20: 25
                +1
                Oh dear, your advice is really worth it! Only it is necessary to do exactly the opposite to what you advise. Let’s do it ourselves. Did you run away from anti-Semitism? You’ll ask again - we’ll still think very much.
            2. Professor
              Professor 14 January 2018 14: 05
              +1
              Quote: Vlad.by
              And why are you so worn with your anti-Semitism?
              For some reason, nobody blames about anti-Russianism, and many more perished because of all sorts of oppression, wars, and blockades.

              Are you proud to give a damn about yours?

              Quote: Vlad.by
              At the same time, Russians somehow calmly and “tolerantly” regard the fact that the most terrible socio-political disasters came to Russia through the means of Marx, Engels, Kirov, Sverdlov, Trotsky and the like. Alas, awareness of this fact alone is quite sufficient for manifestations of anti-Semitism. We left alive, healthy, educated, with parents and safe and sound children and rejoice.

              And rejoice. Are you suggesting that you thank you for not arranging us Auschwitz?

              Quote: Vlad.by
              In the "evil" and "anti-Semitic" Russia there were no pogroms against Jews since 1914-17, thank God. This is not a civilized Europe for you and especially the Muslim world.

              And the pogrom in Krasnoyarsk?

              Quote: Vlad.by
              Live so beautifully and live. And then do not go into such terrible "anti-Semitic" Russian-language forums.

              I do not need your permission to do this.

              Quote: Vlad.by
              No need to tell us how bad we are. We can even get worse.

              This is your problem.
              1. Vlad.by
                Vlad.by 14 January 2018 20: 49
                +2
                As for the flight of the Russians - contradict yourself; in Israel they took 1200000 "worse"? And how much did it leave? The population of the RSFSR in 2000 was about 145 million. After the collapse of the union in the Russian Federation, it was still more than 145 million. This is despite the fact that the “exceptional” and “chosen by God,” thank God, they left us. Who is running and where? And who and where is returning?
                I heard nothing about the Krasnoyarsk pogrom, but I can assume that there is no smoke without fire. It was necessary to give a very serious reason that in our time it would be the Jews who began to "smash". About Caucasians was about Muslims, too, if you can call a fight pogroms. This, in my opinion, is a kind of self-defense. Himself at one time participated. But I didn’t hear about the "pogroms" of Jews in the USSR and the Russian Federation ...
                And then, you are prosperous is this side? Would not climb, really.
                What about permissions? Temper your ardor - who are you for Russia? That's it! And to call you in any way! Sit in the desert and enjoy life. While the Muslims put up with you. The fact that Russians are the most tolerant and peaceful, through which they sometimes suffer, does not give you the right to sit on their heads. This tolerance and softness - for the time being. Then others suffer - those who do not ask permission.
                1. Korax71
                  Korax71 16 January 2018 01: 26
                  0
                  As for the most peaceful ones, you’ve definitely got excited. And about tolerance, such a concept is not very common in Russia.
                  1. Vlad.by
                    Vlad.by 16 January 2018 09: 14
                    0
                    Is it like you got such an aggressor here?
      2. Vlad.by
        Vlad.by 14 January 2018 01: 47
        +4
        And who speaks of betrayal in relation to the Jews? Moreover, for some it’s a traitor, for others it’s a hero.
        Sorry, but the national interests of your tribe, with rare exceptions, always come first. You are brought up from the cradle. And they constantly hammer into the head that besides family and friends there is something higher, Jewish. You are a caste, with your limitations and preferences, both in choosing a profession and in choosing a wife ...
        As mom says, so be it. And smart people will tell her.
        Does Misha have a good ear? Let him study music ... And Misha will be playing the violin all his childhood and his whole life afterwards. Is not it?
        And that is probably good. For Zion. Do you really care about the opinions of the others?
        And when the Union finally understood this - indeed, certain restrictions touched the Jews.
        And as it turned out, it was not in vain. Otherwise, Israel would now be a storehouse of Soviet classified technical information. And so, many still managed not to release.
        Or not?
  8. bk0010
    bk0010 13 January 2018 22: 55
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    On the topic, DZ appeared on Soviet tanks only after the delivery of the trophy from Lebanon to Moscow. Such is the harsh truth of life.
    This has nothing to do with development. This military rested: "I will not let our tank pre-bombed!" And the military’s fears were not groundless: at some demonstration of the first DZ samples, when hit, all the tiles detonated at once.
    1. Professor
      Professor 14 January 2018 09: 19
      +2
      Quote: bk0010
      Quote: Professor
      On the topic, DZ appeared on Soviet tanks only after the delivery of the trophy from Lebanon to Moscow. Such is the harsh truth of life.
      This has nothing to do with development. This military rested: "I will not let our tank pre-bombed!" And the military’s fears were not groundless: at some demonstration of the first DZ samples, when hit, all the tiles detonated at once.

      Maybe it was. To me, as a technocrat, it was monopenosal who exactly invented something. The main thing that they invented. And I did not start this dispute "we have the first time in the world ..."

      Quote: Tests
      Professor, does your insult go to this day? So name a specific university in an evil scoop and your years of study in it. Hour not NUK them. Admiral Makarov? And for some reason you do not consider all correspondence students and evening men of the USSR to be specialists. It's a shame.

      Good students from correspondence and evening classes are an exception to the rule. Let them try to refute me and I will give a thousand examples.

      Quote: Tests
      The site is visited by many of my fellow countrymen - Severodvintsy. They will confirm that many Specialists (with a capital letter) of Severodvinsk factories studied in the evening classes or in the VTUZ plant system. By the way, I know our former people who worked at Zvyozdochka and Sevmash, that today they live in Be'er Sheva, and in Bat Java, and Netavia, and in Tiberias. Agree, they did have something to do with secrets. They come: some to parents, some to children in cold Severodvinsk, we communicate. They say that on the Promised Land they meet with many former colleagues, whom fate brought together in different research institutes at different enterprises in St. Petersburg, Nikolaev, Sevastopol, Novosibirsk. And you say that secret bearers were not allowed out of the USSR.

      Of course not released. (Have you heard about the refuseniks?) But as soon as the scoop breathed in the incense, it broke through the dam and everyone went. Only by that time Israel and its DZ had created its own ATGM and “shot and forgot,” and it lifted its fighter into the sky, and used its drone in battle and launched its satellite into space.
      By the way, an engineer does not require any formal education from Gd. I have met such people, but they are nuggets and it’s not about them.

      Quote: Tests
      Yes, Professor, our former say that in Israel there are no monuments or memorial plaques to any of the scientists or producers of the titular nation. Are they lying to their new homeland or is it true?

      They lie. In Israel there are NO monuments and memorial plaques. Not as a phenomenon.

      Quote: ikrut
      Quote: Professor
      since the scoop of engineers did not teach statistics

      My specialty in first education (in the USSR) is a mechanical engineer. So we had a pretty decent course "Probability Theory and Mathematical Statistics". Assessment was included in the diploma. Why you were not taught statistics - I do not know. Perhaps you have chosen the wrong specialty for study.

      Especially now, I conducted a study among colleagues who were educated in those days. 3 mechanical engineer - statistics were not taught, electro-mechanic (instrumentation) - statistics were not taught, chemical engineer - statistics were taught one semester. I taught Theory of Probability since it was a requirement of the Ship Theory course. There were no statistics. No one has taught regression and experiment design (DOE). If you taught, then you are lucky. hi
      1. Alf
        Alf 14 January 2018 10: 22
        +1
        Quote: Professor
        and he lifted up his fighter,

        Which one ? Lavi? Dvigun was in him Prattovsky. Yes, and you made it only 5 prototypes.
  9. Tests
    Tests 14 January 2018 00: 28
    +5
    Professor, does your insult go to this day? So name a specific university in an evil scoop and your years of study in it. Hour not NUK them. Admiral Makarov? And for some reason you do not consider all correspondence students and evening men of the USSR to be specialists. It's a shame.
    The site is visited by many of my fellow countrymen - Severodvintsy. They will confirm that many Specialists (with a capital letter) of Severodvinsk factories studied in the evening classes or in the VTUZ plant system. By the way, I know our former people who worked at Zvyozdochka and Sevmash, that today they live in Be'er Sheva, and in Bat Java, and Netavia, and in Tiberias. Agree, they did have something to do with secrets. They come: some to parents, some to children in cold Severodvinsk, we communicate. They say that on the Promised Land they meet with many former colleagues, whom fate brought together in different research institutes at different enterprises in St. Petersburg, Nikolaev, Sevastopol, Novosibirsk. And you say that secret bearers were not allowed out of the USSR.
    Yes, Professor, our former say that in Israel there are no monuments or memorial plaques to any of the scientists or producers of the titular nation. Are they lying to their new homeland or is it true?
    The Sevmash’s SSP still has a sentence: “Not a Jew, not Russian, but more cunning Kamai.” In Severodvinsk, at 52, ul. Soviet Lazarevich Kamay was installed a memorial plaque to Israel; not long ago, in a joint project of the Svoye Region television company and the Sovereign City Museum, they talked about it. This board was opened in 2003. It turns out, this memorial plaque, not pomors on Pomeranian land, was coordinated, made and opened by people who were raised and brought up by an evil scoop, educated in non-rated universities. It’s just that those graduates of non-rated universities and humans were the first to launch into space, and build nuclear submarines such that no one can repeat their record characteristics in the world ...
    1. Korax71
      Korax71 16 January 2018 01: 36
      0
      What are these characteristics? We won’t take the biggest one. And the first damn ones did. The man into space is yes. Well done !!!! But his car, for which it will not be a shame, will be neither in the USSR nor in Russia. Or maybe the super computer was, again not. like lately a lot has been said about the god of selectivity and exclusivity. maybe it's time from heaven to earth?
  10. ikrut
    ikrut 14 January 2018 04: 21
    +3
    Quote: Professor
    since the scoop of engineers did not teach statistics

    My specialty in first education (in the USSR) is a mechanical engineer. So we had a pretty decent course "Probability Theory and Mathematical Statistics". Assessment was included in the diploma. Why you were not taught statistics - I do not know. Perhaps you have chosen the wrong specialty for study.
  11. kotdavin4i
    kotdavin4i 14 January 2018 12: 18
    0
    Quote: Professor
    Me and my relatives were citizens of another state? Please fight for the scoop, but you will manage to study at the university. Jews were not taken to mehmat, MGIMO and MVTU im. Bauman because the Jews were not citizens of the USSR or just citizens of the second grade?


    Good weekend to everyone, Professor - I do not want to interfere, but you go too far - in our time, the Internet simply needs to search famous scientists - Jews - and voila - a pretty good list of scientists who lived and work in the USSR is a link: http: //members.tcq .net / joseph / vyd_deyat_sov_nauki
    _evrei.htm
    1. Professor
      Professor 14 January 2018 14: 12
      +1
      Quote: kotdavin4i
      Quote: Professor
      Me and my relatives were citizens of another state? Please fight for the scoop, but you will manage to study at the university. Jews were not taken to mehmat, MGIMO and MVTU im. Bauman because the Jews were not citizens of the USSR or just citizens of the second grade?


      Good weekend to everyone, Professor - I do not want to interfere, but you go too far - in our time, the Internet simply needs to search famous scientists - Jews - and voila - a pretty good list of scientists who lived and work in the USSR is a link: http: //members.tcq .net / joseph / vyd_deyat_sov_nauki
      _evrei.htm

      Oh yeah. This is exactly what Soviet propagandists said in response to allegations of anti-Semitism. “Look,” they said, “we have Jews 3% of the population and their universities 3%. No oppression.” wink

      Quote: kotdavin4i
      Quote: Professor
      They lie. In Israel there are NO monuments and memorial plaques. Not as a phenomenon.


      But how it turns out to be interesting to check you sometimes - it looks like you are "not negotiating" - again a banal search on the net - https://www.tripadvisor.ru/Attractions-g293977-Ac
      tivities-c47-t26-Israel.html - here are a lot of monuments!

      You do not confuse the memorial with the monument. It is not customary for us to erect monuments to specific people, and especially plaques. “Do not make yourself an idol” - remember? Exceptions are extremely rare. Monument to Alexander Zeid.
  12. kotdavin4i
    kotdavin4i 14 January 2018 12: 22
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    They lie. In Israel there are NO monuments and memorial plaques. Not as a phenomenon.


    But how it turns out to be interesting to check you sometimes - it looks like you are "not negotiating" - again a banal search on the net - https://www.tripadvisor.ru/Attractions-g293977-Ac
    tivities-c47-t26-Israel.html - here are a lot of monuments!
  13. bk0010
    bk0010 14 January 2018 20: 45
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    "Certain restrictions" are called anti-Semitism
    If Certain Constraints is anti-Semitism, then repatriation is treason. The Jews have worked out a special relationship for themselves - the possibility of emigration, but why did you suddenly get it, but is there only that “special relationship” in the package? The country has the right to protect sensitive data. People have the right not to sacrifice their careers for the sake of emigrants (after filing a Jewish application for exit, they fought everyone around. At least the head, the head of the first department, those who made recommendations to the party, the chairman of the trade union organization, etc.). They didn’t take to the institutes that trained personnel for the defense industry, you see. And what is the point of spending time and money on you if you are still not given a permit form? Go to civilian universities of a similar profile, especially since the results of examinations (sort of) would be counted without retake (MAI results at MIIGA). By the way, there were no restrictions on the doctors, so you shouldn’t hint about a missed chance to have supermedicine.
    1. Professor
      Professor 15 January 2018 11: 26
      0
      Quote: bk0010
      If Certain Constraints is anti-Semitism, then repatriation is treason.

      Wind because the bulrush bends? You do not confuse places of cause and effect. From countries that do not oppress Jews, Jews do not particularly seek Israel. For example, the emigration of Jews from England is monstrously low.

      Quote: bk0010
      The Jews have worked out a special attitude for themselves - the possibility of emigration, but where did you suddenly get it, but is there only that special package in the "special attitude" package?

      What does it mean "washed up"? Buy a ticket and move to any country ready to receive you? No such? Or maybe the matter is that you personally have nothing to offer? wink
      And the scoop, in turn, did not let anyone leave the "kingdom of the proletariat." You see, a tailor in a place near Bobruisk is a bearer of state secrets. Glory to Gd, the whole scoop came out and millions of his former citizens themselves decided where to live. Including millions of Russians who have chosen the United States and Western Europe as their place of residence.

      Quote: bk0010
      The country has the right to protect sensitive data.

      The tailor from near Bobruisk knew the device of the secret Singer sewing machine.

      Quote: bk0010
      People have the right not to sacrifice their careers for the sake of emigrants (after filing a Jewish application for exit, they fought everyone around. At least the head, the head of the first department, those who made recommendations to the party, the chairman of the trade union organization, etc.).

      Ethnic discrimination is anti-Semitism.

      Quote: bk0010
      They didn’t take to the institutes that trained personnel for the defense industry, you see. And what is the point of spending time and money on you if you are still not given a permit form?

      on a national basis? wink

      Quote: bk0010
      Go to civilian universities of a similar profile, especially since the results of exams (sort of) would be counted without retaking (the results of the Moscow Aviation Institute at MIIGA). By the way, there were no restrictions on the doctors, so you shouldn’t hint about a missed chance to have supermedicine.

      So he is anti-Semitism. We won’t let you come here because you are a Jew, we won’t appoint you to this position because you are a Jew, we won’t send you there then you are a Jew, Jewish theaters, schools, universities we will close because they are Jewish, our language to Jews we won’t let us teach because it is Jewish. And then suddenly a surprise. “Why do the Jews don’t like our country and they began to pack their bags? Ungrateful traitors.”

      PS
      And in MED HIGHER EDUCATION INSTITUTIONS there was a restriction on the admission of "certain nationalities." (My cousin was screwed up openly telling her the reason). The result is your child mortality (163-th place in the world, between Kuwait and Chile), maternal mortality (122-th place in the world, between Armenia and Iran) and life expectancy (154-th place, between Nepal and Moldova) .
      1. bk0010
        bk0010 15 January 2018 20: 28
        +1
        Quote: Professor
        Wind because the bulrush bends? You do not confuse places of cause and effect. From countries that do not oppress Jews, Jews do not particularly seek Israel. For example, the emigration of Jews from England is monstrously low.
        Do not misinterpret the meaning of my phrase. I meant that the restrictions were introduced not because of nationality, but because the secret bearer could become an emigrant or suddenly get relatives abroad.
        Quote: Professor
        What does it mean "washed up"?
        Do not know? And you will learn how to extract permission from the USSR for the exit of Jews. Any laws of Jackson-Venik, etc. The question did not arise: why was it precisely the Jews who were allowed to leave? Not to Ajars to Turkey, not to Azerbaijanis to Iran, but to Jews?
        Quote: Professor
        Buy a ticket and move to any country ready to receive you? No such? Or maybe the matter is that you personally have nothing to offer? wink
        Are you trying to get personal? So they understood that I was right.
        Quote: Professor
        And the scoop, in turn, did not let anyone leave the "kingdom of the proletariat."
        You see, a tailor in a place near Bobruisk is a bearer of state secrets. Glory to Gd, the whole scoop came out and millions of his former citizens themselves decided where they live. Including millions of Russians who have chosen the United States and Western Europe as their place of residence.
        Yes, I also think that the ban on emigration from the USSR was a mistake. But, nevertheless, the country's security system was built on the absence of legal contacts with foreigners. A tailor in a place near Bobruisk is not a bearer of state secrets, but he may be a relative of the bearer. He will dump over the hill, begin correspondence, he will send parcels. How to control all this, if there are hundreds of thousands of such contacts?
        Quote: Professor
        Ethnic discrimination is anti-Semitism.
        on a national basis? wink
        So he is anti-Semitism. We won’t let you come here because you are a Jew, we won’t appoint you to this position because you are a Jew, we won’t send you there then you are a Jew, Jewish theaters, schools, universities we will close because they are Jewish, our language to Jews we won’t let us teach because it is Jewish. And then suddenly a surprise. "And why do the Jews don’t like our country and they began to pack their bags? Ungrateful traitors.
        I repeat once again: this is not on a national basis, but on the basis of the possibility of contacts with a "foreign land". If then the Adjars or Azerbaijanis had been extorted the right to travel again, then everything would be the same for them.
        Quote: Professor
        And in MED HIGHER EDUCATION INSTITUTIONS there was a restriction on the admission of "certain nationalities." (My cousin was screwed up openly telling her the reason). The result is your child mortality (163-th place in the world, between Kuwait and Chile), maternal mortality (122-th place in the world, between Armenia and Iran) and life expectancy (154-th place, between Nepal and Moldova) .
        Well, yes, of course, then in Moscow we don’t have a single Jewish doctor now. Do you really believe in such nonsense? Just like in a joke: “I went to the stutter on the radio to get a job as an announcer. He returns, they ask him:“ Have you taken it? ”Answers:“ No, not really. They say, "Jews are not be-be-be-be-rem."
        1. Shahno
          Shahno 15 January 2018 20: 42
          +1
          One question is possible. Do you respect your citizens? Compare the percentage of the budget for education and healthcare in our countries. No offense...
        2. Korax71
          Korax71 16 January 2018 01: 43
          0
          They didn’t restrict communication with foreigners because of safety, because they didn’t know that living behind a curtain was not worse, or maybe even better.
        3. Professor
          Professor 16 January 2018 11: 44
          0
          Quote: bk0010
          Do not misinterpret the meaning of my phrase. I meant that the restrictions were introduced not because of nationality, but because the secret bearer could become an emigrant or suddenly get relatives abroad.

          The restrictions were imposed not because of nationality, but because they were Jews. Wonderful. But Jewish orphans from collective farms were not released in connection with what secrets?

          Quote: bk0010
          Do not know? And you will learn how to extract permission from the USSR for the exit of Jews. Any laws of Jackson-Venik, etc. The question did not arise: why was it precisely the Jews who were allowed to leave? Not to Ajars to Turkey, not to Azerbaijanis to Iran, but to Jews?

          Do you blame the Jews for being more organized? I don’t remember a single Adjarian or an Azerbaijani who fought for the right of his people to leave their historical homeland and got into prison for this. We can recall the Chairman of the Jewish Agency of Sharansky and the Speaker of our parliament, Edelstein, who in the prison "squeezed" the right of Jews to leave for their homeland. By the way, along with the Jews, the scoop began to release Armenians with the Greeks.

          Quote: bk0010
          Yes, I also think that the ban on emigration from the USSR was a mistake. But, nevertheless, the country's security system was built on the absence of legal contacts with foreigners. A tailor in a place near Bobruisk is not a bearer of state secrets, but he may be a relative of the bearer. He will dump over the hill, begin correspondence, he will send parcels. How to control all this, if there are hundreds of thousands of such contacts?

          Why didn’t they let the tailor out of Bobruisk without any relatives?
          In order not to write letters to colleagues and not send parcels? Rave. By the way, all correspondence passed through the KGB and the KGB officers did not complain.

          Quote: bk0010
          I repeat once again: this is not on a national basis, but on the basis of the possibility of contacts with a "foreign land". If then the Adjars or Azerbaijanis had been extorted the right to travel again, then everything would be the same for them.

          Well, the borders were opened and a lot of Azerbaijanis left for Iran, and the Adzharians went to Turkey (not to their historical homeland, but to a foreign land), but more than a million Jews left. Feel the difference. Moreover, there were no restrictions on admission to universities or employment, neither for Ajarians, nor for Azerbaijanis, nor for Armenians or Greeks, but for Jews. Well, of course, this had nothing to do with nationality. wassat

          Quote: bk0010
          Are you trying to get personal? So they understood that I was right.

          Nothing in person. Only a rhetorical question.

          Quote: bk0010
          Well, yes, of course, then in Moscow now we don’t have a single Jewish doctor. Do you really believe in such nonsense?

          Once again, my cousin, the gold medalist, was not accepted into MedIn, quietly voicing her reason. No one says that there are no Jewish doctors in Moscow, there was no complete ban, and there were restrictions so that Gd forbid, the percentage of Jewish students would not exceed their percentage in the general population.

          Quote: bk0010
          And now you compare your country with Cuba as a percentage of the budget for education and health. Also no offense.

          7% of Israel’s GDP and 11% of Cuba’s GDP go to healthcare.
          The average life expectancy in Israel is 82.5 of the year (12-th place in the world), in Cuba 78.8 of the year (58-th place in the world).
          The average maternal mortality in Israel is 5 at 100000 women in labor (170-th place in the world), in Cuba 39 (106-th place in the world).
          The average infant mortality rate in Israel is 3.4 for 1000 newborns (204-place in the world), in Cuba 4.4 (181-place in the world).

          As you can see, the results in Cuba are worse than in Israel. You wanted to say this?
          1. bk0010
            bk0010 16 January 2018 13: 29
            +1
            Quote: Professor
            Quote: bk0010
            Do not misinterpret the meaning of my phrase. I meant that the restrictions were introduced not because of nationality, but because the secret bearer could become an emigrant or suddenly get relatives abroad.
            The restrictions were imposed not because of nationality, but because they were Jews. Wonderful. But Jewish orphans from collective farms were not released in connection with what secrets?
            You are misinterpreting again! Well, what kind of person are you! Where in the phrase "I meant that the restrictions were introduced not because of nationality, but because the secret bearer could become an emigrant or suddenly get relatives abroad." is there even a word about the Jews?
            Quote: Professor
            Do you blame the Jews for being more organized?
            Where is the reproach? I just remind you that "for what they fought, they ran into something." If you want to leave, please, but you will not be trusted.
            Quote: Professor
            By the way, along with the Jews, the scoop began to release Armenians with the Greeks.
            Excuse me, where are the Armenians?
            Quote: Professor
            Why didn’t they let the tailor out of Bobruisk without any relatives?
            So he just did not know about all the relatives. You write as if during the USSR not a single Jew left.
            Quote: Professor
            Well, the borders were opened and a lot of Azerbaijanis left for Iran, and the Adzharians went to Turkey (not to their historical homeland, but to a foreign land), but more than a million Jews left. Feel the difference.
            Do not feel. What do you mean by that? By the way, most of the Jews did not rush to Israel. And the fact that there are more than a million Jews, and the rest are significantly fewer - so who else have such conditions for emigration been created?
            Quote: Professor
            Moreover, there were no restrictions on admission to universities or employment, neither for Ajarians, nor for Azerbaijanis, nor for Armenians or Greeks, but for Jews. Well, of course, this had nothing to do with nationality. wassat
            Of course. Glad you finally realized my thought.
            Quote: Professor
            Once again, my cousin, the gold medalist, was not accepted into MedIn, quietly voicing her reason. No one says that there are no Jewish doctors in Moscow, there was no complete ban, and there were restrictions so that Gd forbid, the percentage of Jewish students would not exceed their percentage in the general population.
            So the leadership of that institute was caught on the fact that it was pushing Jews only for nationality to the university. And what do they doctor? Or that others will not do it because they are not Jews for you is immaterial?
            Quote: Professor
            7% of Israel’s GDP and 11% of Cuba’s GDP go to healthcare.
            The average life expectancy in Israel is 82.5 of the year (12-th place in the world), in Cuba 78.8 of the year (58-th place in the world).
            The average maternal mortality in Israel is 5 at 100000 women in labor (170-th place in the world), in Cuba 39 (106-th place in the world).
            The average infant mortality rate in Israel is 3.4 for 1000 newborns (204-place in the world), in Cuba 4.4 (181-place in the world).
            As you can see, the results in Cuba are worse than in Israel. You wanted to say this?
            Not. Shahno wanted to measure the% of GDP on healthcare here, I showed him that Israel is not a leader here either.
            1. karish
              karish 16 January 2018 13: 34
              +1
              Quote: bk0010
              And the fact that there are more than a million Jews, and the rest are significantly fewer - so who else have such conditions for emigration been created?

              Germans left more than 1.4 million request
              1. bk0010
                bk0010 16 January 2018 15: 34
                0
                By the way, yes. And they also did not go to the bare steppe.
            2. Professor
              Professor 16 January 2018 14: 54
              0
              Quote: bk0010
              You are misinterpreting again! Well, what kind of person are you! Where in the phrase "I meant that the restrictions were introduced not because of nationality, but because the secret bearer could become an emigrant or suddenly get relatives abroad." is there even a word about the Jews?

              Do not you find that in a strange way these restrictions affected only one nationality living in the USSR? Neither the Germans nor the Greeks were restricted in entering universities.

              Quote: bk0010
              Where is the reproach? I just remind you that "for what they fought, they ran into something." If you want to leave, please, but you will not be trusted.

              Reproach to "the USSR squeezed permission to leave the Jews. "And again, you confuse the cause with the investigation. First, the Jews were made an unbearable life because of this, they started to blame them. And yes, we want to leave, but for this we were given real terms. For example, Shiransky and Edelstein.

              Quote: bk0010
              Excuse me, where are the Armenians?

              Not where, but from where. From the USSR. For example, in the USA or in the same Iran. Personally, I know a family that eventually fell into Iran.

              Quote: bk0010
              Quote: Professor
              Why didn’t they let the tailor out of Bobruisk without any relatives?
              So he just did not know about all the relatives. You write as if during the USSR not a single Jew left.

              There were years that not a single Jew was released. See statistics. So what secrets did you know an orphan a Jew from a collective farm? wink

              Quote: bk0010
              Do not feel. What do you mean by that? By the way, most of the Jews did not rush to Israel. And the fact that there are more than a million Jews, and the rest are significantly fewer - so who else have such conditions for emigration been created?

              And you look at the numbers. How many Azerbaijanis left for Iran? That's it. By the way, when the borders were opened, the Russians fell most of all from the territory of the USSR. Paradox? After all, they were taken to institutes. lol

              Quote: bk0010
              Quote: Professor
              Moreover, there were no restrictions on admission to universities or employment, neither for Ajarians, nor for Azerbaijanis, nor for Armenians or Greeks, but for Jews. Well, of course, this had nothing to do with nationality.
              Of course. Glad you finally realized my thought.

              You contradict yourself. Both those and others asked to leave the scoop, but only one was limited in admission to universities. Why such an injustice to the Jews?

              Quote: bk0010
              So the leadership of that institute was caught on the fact that it was pushing Jews only for nationality to the university. And what do they doctor? Or that others will not do it because they are not Jews for you is immaterial?

              Do not fantasize who and what was caught. Everyone should act on equal terms regardless of nationality. Otherwise, it is discrimination. You will be dragging to universities on a national basis and you will have the kind of medicine that you have now.

              Quote: bk0010
              Not. Shahno wanted to measure the% of GDP on healthcare here, I showed him that Israel is not a leader here either.

              No matter how much you spend on healthcare. The result is important. At lower relative costs, we have the best result in all respects. Do you know why? Because we are being admitted to the medical faculty by the best, regardless of nationality. For example, we have the director of the largest medical center in Western Galilee Arab. Learn. hi
              1. bk0010
                bk0010 16 January 2018 15: 46
                +2
                Quote: Professor
                Do not you find that in a strange way these restrictions affected only one nationality living in the USSR?
                Are you talking about Russians and quotas for national minorities?
                Quote: Professor
                Neither Germans nor Greeks were restricted in their admission to universities.
                I don’t know about the Greeks, but the Germans didn’t go anywhere before the perestroika.
                Quote: Professor
                And again you confuse the cause with the effect. At first, the Jews were made an unbearable life because of this, they began to dump.
                Unbearable - is it on a common basis, in the worst case? Before you write nonsense, you would recall the number of Jews in the military-industrial complex (and in the chiefs of the military-industrial complex), in theaters, in trade, etc.
                Quote: Professor
                Not where, but from where. From the USSR. For example, in the USA or in the same Iran. Personally, I know a family that eventually fell into Iran.
                Well yes, Christian Armenians in fundamentalist Iran. Original.
                Quote: Professor
                So what secrets did you know an orphan a Jew from a collective farm? wink
                What kind of an orphan, what kind of collective farm?
                Quote: Professor
                By the way, when the borders were opened, the Russians fell most of all from the territory of the USSR. Paradox? After all, they were taken to institutes. lol
                So what? How does this prove the existence of anti-Semitism in the USSR?
                Quote: Professor
                Both those and others asked to leave the scoop, but only one was limited in admission to universities. Why such an injustice to the Jews?
                Again. Before perestroika, no one went anywhere except Jews (I don’t know about the Greeks).
                Quote: Professor
                Everyone should act on equal terms regardless of nationality. Otherwise, it is discrimination.
                I agree. But otherwise, education from the national suburbs did not shine. Discriminated Russians.
                1. Professor
                  Professor 16 January 2018 21: 00
                  +1
                  Quote: bk0010
                  Are you talking about Russians and quotas for national minorities?

                  No, I’m talking about Jews whom they didn’t admit to some universities (which, in fact, you previously recognized and I don’t know why I repeat this to you again) just because they are Jews.

                  Quote: bk0010
                  I don’t know about the Greeks, but the Germans didn’t go anywhere before the perestroika.

                  Learn the materiel. Until 1985, 105'000 Germans fell from the scoop. Nevertheless, universities have limited the admission of Jews. Looks in retaliation to the Germans.

                  Quote: bk0010
                  Quote: Professor
                  And again you confuse the cause with the effect. At first, the Jews were made an unbearable life because of this, they began to dump.
                  Unbearable - is it on a common basis, in the worst case? Before you write nonsense, you would recall the number of Jews in the military-industrial complex (and in the chiefs of the military-industrial complex), in theaters, in trade, etc.

                  You write nonsense. The biggest Jewish dream has always been the opportunity to be "on a common basis," but ... some were afraid to give them such a chance. Remember the number of Jewish ambassadors in Brezhnev’s times, Jewish ministers. Come on? Weak? wink

                  Quote: bk0010
                  What kind of an orphan, what kind of collective farm?

                  The real orphan whom the Ukrainian family sheltered in the war. So he stayed on the collective farm. Why did the scoop not let him go? What secret did he know?

                  Quote: bk0010
                  So what? How does this prove the existence of anti-Semitism in the USSR?

                  Anti-Semitism in the USSR has already been proven. Repeated proof is not required.

                  Quote: bk0010
                  Again. Before perestroika, no one went anywhere except Jews (I don’t know about the Greeks).

                  Learn the materiel. In the third wave of emigration (1948-1985), 290 000 Jews, 105 000 Germans, 52 000 Armenians left the scoop.

                  Quote: bk0010
                  Well yes, Christian Armenians in fundamentalist Iran. Original.

                  Well yes. They claimed that they lived better in Iran than in a scoop. They have a business there. They worked for themselves. Yes, and now in Iran 150 000. Did not know?

                  Quote: bk0010
                  I agree. But otherwise, education from the national suburbs did not shine. Discriminated Russians.

                  When Russians discriminate against Russians it is a personal matter for the Russians.
                  1. bk0010
                    bk0010 16 January 2018 21: 34
                    +1
                    Quote: Professor
                    No, I’m talking about Jews whom they didn’t admit to some universities (which, in fact, you previously recognized and I don’t know why I repeat this to you again) just because they are Jews.
                    Not because the Jews, but because the potential emigrants.
                    Quote: Professor
                    Learn the materiel. Until 1985, 105'000 Germans fell from the scoop. Nevertheless, universities have limited the admission of Jews. Looks in retaliation to the Germans.
                    Something is not believed. A reference would be.
                    Quote: Professor
                    Remember the number of Jewish ambassadors in Brezhnev’s times, Jewish ministers. Come on? Weak? wink
                    And why in Brezhnev? Can we expand to the Stalinist ones? Or even to Lenin’s? Has the statistics changed? And now name the number of Russian ambassadors and ministers in Israel, we will not trifle, for the entire period of the state’s existence.
                    Quote: Professor
                    The real orphan whom the Ukrainian family sheltered in the war. So he stayed on the collective farm. Why did the scoop not let him go? What secret did he know?
                    "Names, passwords, appearances." Name the collective farm, the name of the citizen, no additional information will be superfluous.
                    Quote: Professor
                    Anti-Semitism in the USSR has already been proven. Repeated proof is not required.
                    You're lying.
                    Quote: Professor
                    Learn the materiel. In the third wave of emigration (1948-1985), 290 000 Jews, 105 000 Germans, 52 000 Armenians left the scoop.
                    Again, a reference would be.
                    Quote: Professor
                    When Russians discriminate against Russians it is a personal matter for the Russians.
                    And when are Jews Jews? Local Jews (Sephardic, it seems) complained about you: they came in large numbers, they don’t consider people. I'm not talking about Arabs. They also say: “I can’t go to Jordan, to see my relatives. They will declare me Jordanian and will not let me go back.”
                    1. Professor
                      Professor 16 January 2018 22: 07
                      +1
                      Quote: bk0010
                      Not because the Jews, but because the potential emigrants.

                      Last time. I won’t feed you anymore. From 1981 to 1985, 15'900 Jews and 18'400 Germans left the scoop. As we see the Germans emigrated more, but they were not limited in admission to universities, and Jews were limited.

                      Quote: bk0010
                      Something is not believed. A reference would be.

                      Easy. Learn the materiel: http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/2006/0251/analit01
                      . Php

                      Quote: bk0010
                      And why in Brezhnev? Can we expand to the Stalinist ones? Or even to Lenin’s? Has the statistics changed? And now name the number of Russian ambassadors and ministers in Israel, we will not trifle, for the entire period of the state’s existence.

                      I can walk through Stalin's times. I have all the names.
                      There is no Russian ethnic community in Israel and accordingly there are no ethnic Russian ambassadors and ministers, but according to the census of 1970, the Soviet Union lived in 2,151,000 Jews. And among them there was not one worthy to be an ambassador, and the Council of Ministers was only one Dymshits, and even for show. Learn the materiel.

                      Quote: bk0010
                      "Names, passwords, appearances." Name the collective farm, the name of the citizen, no additional information will be superfluous.

                      Easy. I personally know him. Will this prove something to you?

                      Quote: bk0010
                      You're lying.

                      You yourself wrote about it all the time trying to bring a rational. You got bored with me.

                      Quote: bk0010
                      Again, a reference would be.

                      Yes, unlike you, I have tons of material. You absolutely do not know the materiel.
                      http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/2006/0251/analit01
                      . Php

                      Quote: bk0010
                      And when are Jews Jews? Local Jews (Sephardic, it seems) complained about you: they came in large numbers, they don’t consider people. I'm not talking about Arabs. They also say: “I can’t go to Jordan, to see my relatives. They will declare me Jordanian and will not let me go back.”

                      A showdown between Jews is a Jewish affair, and tell tales of the Jordanian to those who don’t know Israeli laws.

                      As I already wrote, you are not interesting to me and I will not feed anymore. All the best to you. hi
                      1. bk0010
                        bk0010 16 January 2018 22: 57
                        0
                        Quote: Professor
                        As I already wrote, you are not interesting to me and I will not feed anymore. All the best to you. hi
                        Well, okay.
      2. passerby5
        passerby5 16 January 2018 15: 13
        0
        and here I have a question. understand correctly: here there is a Jewish school, etc., on the one hand, it seems like you need to know the roots there somehow ... but somehow it was among the Jews that it bulged out among others. i.e. the first among equals. and the saying (sayings) - the first thing I remembered: if there is no water in the tap, then they drank ..... the question is: where did it come from ... after all, it is not out of the blue, why many have just such an attitude towards Jews. specifically, let’s say nobody was brought up at school so much (as in 314, Russians are to blame for everything) .. here is your opinion
        1. Professor
          Professor 17 January 2018 09: 25
          +2
          Quote: passerby5
          but I have a question.

          Do you want me to tell you in a commentary on the emergence of anti-Semitism?
          I wanted to shower you with literature, but I think that Churchill could best answer this question: "There is no anti-Semitism in England because the British do not consider themselves stupider than the Jews," even though he didn’t say that.
          1. Wolf 1
            Wolf 1 18 January 2018 16: 56
            0
            weren't the Jews expelled from England in 1290?
  14. bk0010
    bk0010 15 January 2018 22: 33
    0
    Quote: Shahno
    One question may be. Do you respect your citizens?
    I am. Are you yours?
    Quote: Shahno
    Compare the percentage of the budget for education and healthcare in our countries. No offense...
    Compare. And now you compare your country with Cuba as a percentage of the budget for education and health. Also no offense.
    1. brigadir
      brigadir 16 January 2018 14: 06
      +2
      Cuba. The budget in 2008 is $ 41 billion. Population 060 million

      Israel: $ 80 billion, population 850 million

      If you compare apples with apples.
      And the percentage is different and the amount of money.
      Still, I am inclined to think that the medical equipment that is in any Israeli hospital in Cuba will not be for a very long time.

      With education is more difficult. Who wants to study - learns. Who is a lazy person - opens a bakery or repairs punchers in tire fitting. Here, of course, the state’s contribution is important, but measuring it is difficult. This morning, on the way to work, I listened to army radio. The school, which won first place in the quality of training and knowledge of students - a low-budget peripheral school in a small Druze (non-Jewish !!!) village in Galilee (north) - there is just a director well done and teachers are invested seriously.
  15. Svateev
    Svateev 10 February 2018 17: 48
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    Swiss or Italian recognizes, but not Russian.

    So you haven’t managed to betray Switzerland and Italy yet.
    Or?