Military Review

Frigates of the 11356 "Petrel" project: three in service and three in question

137
The last days of the year are traditionally the fleet new ships, ships and submarines. The end of December 2017 was no exception: one of the new items that entered the fleet’s combat crew “under the Christmas tree” was the Admiral Makarov patrol ship / frigate, built according to project 11356. On December 25, representatives of the Navy signed an acceptance certificate of this ship. Two days later, the flag of the Navy was raised on it. The Admiral Makarov became the third warship of its type to enter service. In the foreseeable future, it is planned to complete the construction of three more frigates of project 11356. Half of the existing order has already been completed, while the fate of the second until recently has been called into question.


Recall, the project Frigate 11356 "Petrel" is a variant of the deep modernization of older projects 1135 and 1135M. The development of the new project was carried out taking into account the experience of creating ships of the type "1135.6" or "Talwar", previously created for the naval forces of India. The main objective of the new project 11356 was the fastest possible construction of several guardians of the far sea zone, necessary for re-equipping the Black Sea and Baltic fleets.


"Admiral Makarov" during the flag raising ceremony, December 27 2017


The 11356 project was developed by the end of the last decade, and in 2010, the first contract for the construction of such ships appeared. In 2011, the second agreement was signed. In accordance with the two treaties, the shipbuilding industry was to transfer to the fleet six new frigates with a total value of about 40 billion rubles.

The 11356 “Petrel” project envisages the construction of a warship with a full displacement of more than 4000 tons, having a length of about 125 m with a width of up to 15,2 m and a draft of up to 7,5 m. engines (type COGAG). It consists of a pair of sustainer engines, supplemented by two afterburners. The total capacity of such a power plant reaches 56 thousand hp. Through the gearboxes of a special design, the power is delivered to two propellers. With such equipment, the Petrel is capable of speeds up to 30 nodes. Cruising range at economic speed reaches nautical miles 4850.

Given current trends and requirements, the 11356 project provides for the use of a new hull and superstructure design, to a certain extent reducing the ship’s visibility for radar systems. Measures to reduce acoustic visibility were also implemented. At the same time, new frigates retain certain features of their predecessors of the 1135 family.

The main means of detecting ships of the 11356 project is the Fregat-M2EM radar. Also, the radar complex includes several fire control stations used with anti-aircraft and artillery weapons. Data from the detection means is transmitted to the combat information and control system "Demand-M", which ensures the use of all radio-electronic means, weapons, etc.

The main attack vehicle of the frigates of a new type is the universal vertical launcher 3C14, intended for firing rockets of the Caliber family. Such weapons allow the ship to attack a variety of surface and land targets. The ammunition complex "Caliber" consists of 8 missiles. Also in the complex of rocket armament includes anti-aircraft system medium-range "Calm-1".


Admiral Grigorovich arrived in Sevastopol, June 2016


The 11356 project provides for the use of an advanced artillery system complex. An artillery mount A-190 with a 100 caliber mm gun is mounted on the forecastle of the ship. There is also a pair of AK-630 units with 30 caliber mm guns. To combat submarines and torpedoes, it is proposed to use two paired 533-mm torpedo tubes and a jet bomber RBU-6000.

The aft deck is a helicopter airstrip. Next to it in the superstructure is a hangar that allows you to transport and operate a Ka-27 or Ka-31 helicopter.

The order for the construction of all six patrol ships of the new type was received by the Yantar Baltic Shipyard (Kaliningrad). Shortly after signing the contract, the company carried out the necessary preparatory work and proceeded with the implementation of the order. 18 December 2010 was held the solemn ceremony of laying the main frigate of the 11356 project, named Admiral Grigorovich. This event was the actual start of a new program for the construction of new ships.

The first serial "Petrel" of the new project under the name "Admiral Essen" was laid in July 2011 of the year. The next bookmark ceremony, which launched the construction of Admiral Makarov, was held at the end of February on 2012. In July, November and December of the next 2013, the Yantar plant began the construction of the ships Admiral Butakov, Admiral Istomin and Admiral Kornilov.

The lead frigate of the 11356 project was launched in March 14 2014. About a year the ship was completed at the wall, after which it was released for testing. Required checks continued until the end of 2015. 10 March The 2016 fleet received the Admiral Grigorovich, and the next day it was raised a flag. In the early summer of the same year, the ship made the transition to the duty station.

7 November 2014 was launched the first serial ship "Admiral Essen". About a year later, this watchdog first went to sea for testing. According to the first plans, the ship was supposed to enter service before the beginning of the summer of 2016, however, the signing of the acceptance certificate slightly moved. 7 June of the same year, the frigate officially added to the Russian Navy.


"Admiral Grigorovich", June 2016


The second serial ship (the third representative of the project), laid on 29 on February 2012, was launched in the first days of September on 2015. In early October 2016, the completed frigate “Admiral Makarov” went to the test. Due to certain reasons, the tests of the ship were noticeably delayed, and they could not be taken into the fleet combat crew in May last year, as planned earlier. However, at the end of December, the necessary act was signed, and now the Black Sea Fleet incorporates three “Petrels”.

To date, Yantar Shipyard has completed half of the existing order for the construction of patrol ships of the 11356 project and has provided partial re-equipment of the Black Sea Fleet. At the same time, however, the further fulfillment of the order faced serious problems and even managed to become a topic of controversy. The fact is that the shipbuilding program was negatively affected by events in the international arena.

Due to the lack of suitable Russian-made products in the 11356 “Petrel” project, we had to use gas turbine installations developed by the Ukrainian Scientific-Production Complex of the Gas-Turbine Construction “Zorya” - “Mashproekt” (Nikolaev). Before the start of 2014, and the subsequent deterioration of relations between the two countries, a foreign enterprise managed to deliver only three sets of equipment out of six. The impossibility of a quick, full-fledged replacement of lost engines by the forces of Russian industry led to noticeable problems.

After analyzing the existing situation, the command of the Russian fleet and the leadership of the industry made a decision. At the beginning of July 2015, Admiral Viktor Chirkov, Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, said that Russia would have to abandon the ships Admiral Butakov, Admiral Istomin and Admiral Kornilov, which were left without engines. Instead, it was proposed to build 18 small rocket ships of the 22800 project, the first of which should have been laid in 2016.

A little later, it was decided to create its own power plants designed to replace the products of the enterprise “Zorya” - “Mashproekt”. To solve this problem was the NGO "Saturn". In May, 2016 of the year, it was announced that the three remaining “Petrels” would be mothballed by the end of the current decade - until the required domestically produced engines appeared.


Admiral Essen arrives in Sevastopol, July 2017


A few months later, in October, information appeared about the possible sale of three unfinished frigates to the naval forces of India. In February last year, Deputy Director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation Vladimir Drozhzhov pointed out the possibility of transferring two ships of the 11356 type to the Indian fleet.

In connection with the existing problems and uncertain future, it was decided to lower the unfinished ships into the water and thereby free up the stocks for the new construction. The frigate "Admiral Butakov" was launched in March 2016. Two other ships were taken out of the assembly shop in November of the 2017. As follows from the available data, all three ships carry far from a complete set of equipment, and therefore I can not be completed at the plant wall. Unfinished ships were mothballed before making decisions about their future.

In early June, 2017, the domestic media released a new statement by the head of the United Shipbuilding Corporation Alexei Rakhmanov. He said that in the year 2018, USC planned to resume construction of mothballed ships. To continue the construction will require some research and development work, but they should not lead to significant difficulties and a new shift in time.

July 1 such statements were confirmed by the command of the fleet. Deputy Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, Vice Admiral Viktor Bursuk, said that three new frigates will still be completed in the foreseeable future and will be added to the combat strength of the Black Sea Fleet. Soon, however, this information was corrected.

Already in September, Vladimir Kozhin, Assistant to the President of Russia on military-technical cooperation, pointed out that, within the framework of the current agreements of friendly India, two “Petrels” of the mothballed ones could be transferred. In this case, only one ship will be completed for its own fleet. The problem of power plants will be solved by available methods. So, the ship for the Russian Navy will receive domestic equipment, and the Indian side will be able to independently buy Ukrainian-made products.


Admiral Essen berth, July 2017


At about the same time, other shipbuilding representatives clarified a possible scenario. So, for the Russian fleet can be completed guard "Admiral Butakov." "Admiral Istomin" and "Admiral Kornilov", in turn, can be sold to a foreign customer with the subsequent completion of his building. In addition, two more such ships can be built on Indian enterprises by the Russian project.

To date, three of the six ordered ships of the 11356 project were built, tested, transferred to the fleet and included in its combat strength. At the same time, the head and serial frigates have already managed not only to begin service, but also to take part in real combat operations. In November 2016 and June 2017, the Admiral Grigorovich watchdog carried out several rocket attacks on the positions of terrorists in Syria. "Admiral Essen" last year carried out three such blows. “Admiral Makarov,” for obvious reasons, has not yet managed to take part in the fight against terrorism.

Apparently, the further fate of the three following ships of the “Petrel” type has already been determined. One of them will be completed for the Russian fleet with the use of domestic components, while the other two will go to serve abroad. Thus, out of six ordered ships of the Russian Navy, only four will be able to receive, and one of them will not fully correspond to the original design and the existing technical requirements. However, in this case, the Black Sea Fleet will update its grouping of surface ships and increase combat capability accordingly.

In accordance with previous statements by the Navy Command, the shortage of 11356 frigates in the foreseeable future will be compensated for by building a large number of small rocket ships of the 22800 / Karakurt type. It is planned to build 18 of such RTOs, more than half of which have already, at a minimum, been laid and are at different stages of construction. The head and serial "Karakurts" were launched last year and soon have to go to the test. The ships of the 22800 project differ in the most noticeable way from the “Stormers” in a number of parameters, but they have similar combat capabilities provided by unified attack missile weapons.

Unfortunately, the direct consequence of the deterioration of the situation in the international arena were certain problems with obtaining certain products used in the construction of Russian ships. As a result of this, among other things, the fate of three Russian frigates of the 11356 project was called into question. However, a few years after the necessary industrial ties were broken, the Russian military and industry managed to find a way out of the current situation and adjust their plans. Due to this, the existing order in the interests of the Russian Navy, half of which has already been completed, will be implemented by two thirds in the future.

Despite certain difficulties, the Russian navy in the coming years will be able to receive at least four of the six ordered ships of the Burevestnik project. In addition, in addition to them, small rocket ships of the 22800 project will be built. Thus, with all the existing difficulties and a noticeable shift in some terms, the fleet will nevertheless begin to operate a noticeable number of new ships, which will positively affect its general condition and combat capabilities.


On the materials of the sites:
http://mil.ru/
http://ria.ru/
http://tass.ru/
http://rg.ru/
http://flot.com/
https://iz.ru/
http://interfax.ru/
Author:
Photos used:
Russian Defense Ministry / mil.ru, "New Kaliningrad" / newkaliningrad.ru
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  1. svp67
    svp67 10 January 2018 07: 46
    +4
    6-2 ... For a long time, the "question Ukraine" will hiccup us ...
    1. Chertt
      Chertt 10 January 2018 08: 41
      18
      Quote: svp67
      "Ukraine question" will hiccup us ...

      Ukraine stimulates Russia to "brain activity." Russia is a proud bird until you kick it
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 17 October 2020 22: 13
        0
        You can't be the best at everything. Let's say, with a probability of more than 90%, our diesels will never surpass the MTU level. After all, both sides move and develop.
        The same is with Zorya-Mashproekt. As a result, we will create an acceptable marine gas turbine, but it is unlikely that of the same level (in the same period of time).
        I am sure those who made our decisions in 2014 did not occupy their heads with such "trifles".
    2. Amurets
      Amurets 10 January 2018 12: 10
      +9
      Quote: svp67
      .. For a long time, the "question of Ukraine" will hiccup us ...

      Back in the 90s, for the sake of the Germans, in Leningrad, the production of ship turbines and diesel engines was stopped, and the equipment of the plants was sent to Germany for re-melting, as outdated.
      1. 73bor
        73bor 13 January 2018 20: 12
        +1
        Turbine units were built on Kirovsky, it’s something like a ship checkpoint, now they seem to be doing it in Kirov!
        1. Amurets
          Amurets 13 January 2018 23: 41
          0
          Quote: 73bor
          Turbine units were built on Kirovsky, it’s something like a ship checkpoint, now they seem to be doing it in Kirov!

          So I have to restore production, although according to Kirov I don’t know the details and I can’t say anything
      2. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 11 June 2018 22: 53
        0
        So Russia itself created this problem. Now are you looking for the extreme?
      3. 3danimal
        3danimal 17 October 2020 22: 17
        0
        Tales. The plant went bankrupt without orders (for self-sufficiency).
        The option was to starve some of the workers and residents of St. Petersburg. With open borders, this would be mitigated by the flight of a part of the population from hungry places.
        Ask what problems the city authorities were solving then. At a number of points, food remained for 3-4 days, and without constant replenishment.
        And some of the current leadership of the country at that time, the funds allocated for the purchase of food were taken away through shell companies ... abroad. (Sins of youth, it happens to everyone)
  2. Neputin
    Neputin 10 January 2018 08: 45
    17
    It is simply necessary to have critical production in the territory of our own country. This has long been clear to all sane people, with the exception of our government and the Moscow Region. Just startling mediocrity and inability to calculate the situation at least 1 step forward. Together with overt sabotage, sloppiness and theft. Let me remind you that the question of creating a test bench for gas turbine engines of its own production was raised in 2000 and 6 lard rubles were allocated for this. The stand was built in 2017. It turns out that “until the roasted cock in ... doesn’t peck, no one moves. It’s a shame for our unfortunate managers. They can only be PR in social networks.
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 10 January 2018 08: 57
      17
      Quote: Neputin
      This has long been clear to all sane people, with the exception of our government and the Moscow Region.

      Oh, you are so smart that I even cried crying
      Before scolding the government and the Defense Ministry, tighten your brain and answer me ...... you urgently need to strengthen the marine grouping in the Black Sea and Baltic directions! Before the serial release of new projects of ships and power plants, it takes years, and you need now. There is a ready-made and worked out in production project of a power plant frigate to which you can buy and it will now be cheaper.
      Your actions, my friend ?????
      1. Chertt
        Chertt 10 January 2018 09: 14
        +7
        Respected Serg65
        Quote: Serg65
        Your actions, my friend ?????

        Do not ask practical questions to our ANNalitics, they are uncomfortable and offended. Be indulgent to "sick"
        1. Serg65
          Serg65 10 January 2018 09: 15
          +9
          Quote: Chertt
          Be indulgent to "sick"

          what Bes beguiled, I repent !!!! bully
          1. novel66
            novel66 10 January 2018 10: 20
            +6
            what is barking about? Watchdog with 8Myu (in words of eight)! missiles .... and burke will sail - how to frighten him? bare ass?
            1. Serg65
              Serg65 10 January 2018 10: 30
              +6
              Quote: novel xnumx
              Burke will sail - how to scare him? bare ass?

              drinks Healthy Flyer!
              Roma, but what for the air force ??? Or do you want to sit out while drinking a sword ?????
              1. novel66
                novel66 10 January 2018 10: 37
                +4
                Oh! where are my manners! great buddy! drinks we are yes! we are ready !, and your frigate will depict a goat on a rope lol tongue
                1. Serg65
                  Serg65 10 January 2018 11: 01
                  +5
                  Quote: novel xnumx
                  we are yes! we are ready

                  laughing laughing laughing I read here the other day, as an "Oden proud, but sooo smart" Air Force representative had the desire to bring down the black American Global Hawk, .... but did not have the opportunity! tongue
                  1. novel66
                    novel66 10 January 2018 12: 28
                    +2
                    of course. clever! the team simply wasn’t, the crow was already at the source tongue
            2. Dart2027
              Dart2027 10 January 2018 19: 52
              +1
              Quote: novel xnumx
              what is barking about? Watchdog with 8Myu (in words of eight)! missiles .... and burke will sail

              In fact, the Berks also have 8 RCC Harpoon. Well, these are ships of different classes.
              1. KaPToC
                KaPToC 11 January 2018 08: 28
                0
                Quote: Dart2027
                In fact, the Berks also have 8 RCC Harpoon. Well, these are ships of different classes.

                On old versions, on new ones even a place for harpoons is not provided. And what is a harpoon - a primitive subsonic missile.
                1. 3danimal
                  3danimal 17 October 2020 22: 51
                  0
                  On old versions, on new ones even a place for harpoons is not provided. And what is a harpoon - a primitive subsonic missile.

                  That's because our designers are stupid .. They did not turn to you for advice and made subsonic X-35 and subsonic versions of the Caliber anti-ship missile system (with a warhead of 400 kg) smile
                  For the MK-41 launchers, the LRASM anti-ship missiles have already been adopted. Also subsonic.
            3. KaPToC
              KaPToC 11 January 2018 08: 25
              0
              Quote: novel xnumx
              than barking something? Watchdog with 8Myu (in words of eight)! missiles .... and burke will sail - how to frighten him? bare ass?

              That's it, as many as eight long-range anti-ship cruise missiles, and Burke - not a single one. There are just barefoot berks.
              1. novel66
                novel66 11 January 2018 08: 30
                0
                read even higher - they have a "harpoon" and for as many as eight! long-range missiles hell knows how many squash missiles. really here. only hope for aviation
                1. Serg65
                  Serg65 11 January 2018 10: 44
                  +4
                  Quote: novel xnumx
                  they have a "harpoon" and for as many as eight! long-range missiles he knows

                  hi Healthy buddy!
                  You hold yourself a little now laughing !!!!!!
                  1. novel66
                    novel66 11 January 2018 10: 53
                    0
                    hi hi yeah, hands get tired, I say - melancholy
                    1. novel66
                      novel66 11 January 2018 10: 54
                      0
                      although you have to control yourself a little, several times a day tongue
                      1. Serg65
                        Serg65 11 January 2018 11: 01
                        +4
                        Quote: novel xnumx
                        several times a day

                        You ... tie it up with melancholy stop
                2. KaPToC
                  KaPToC 11 January 2018 13: 18
                  0
                  Quote: novel xnumx
                  read at least above - they have a "harpoon" and for as many as eight!

                  I answer
                  Quote: KaPToC
                  On old versions, on new ones even a place for harpoons is not provided.

                  Quote: novel xnumx
                  long-range missiles hell knows how many sub-missiles

                  The praised SM-3 has, think for a moment - it cannot physically hit a kinetic warhead, because it must hit it, you can put a high-explosive fragment on it, but the range will drop in proportion to the weight of this warhead itself.
                  Quote: novel xnumx
                  only hope for aviation

                  Actually, the American fleet is counting on this, but it seems to me that this is a flawed doctrine - when enemy ships can attack only ten ships.
                  1. 3danimal
                    3danimal 17 October 2020 22: 39
                    0
                    Now missiles are being developed to replace the AIM-120, with a kinetic warhead.
            4. Plombeer
              Plombeer 11 January 2018 15: 08
              0
              it is better in the current situation to build an MPC and all possible small vessels with missile equipment than 1 large missile cruiser. at the rate of: 1 rocket - 1 ship, a small squadron devotes in the coastal strip (this is the doctrine of our present situation at sea) even a whole fleet of Amerisos calmly. new concepts of invisibility construction, plus the anti-detection toolkit from project 1886, and a bunch of developments that did not have time to sell in the 90s that would easily take the service of any ship to stay out of radar visibility for as long as possible
              1. 3danimal
                3danimal 17 October 2020 22: 41
                0
                Yes, you do not need to build defenseless RTOs, you just need something like a frigate 11356. Mastery and technological. Which is being built in just 4-5 years.
            5. 73bor
              73bor 13 January 2018 20: 17
              0
              The storozhevichok with the 8th anti-ship missiles, and the Burke with coastal “axes”, all the same, like a squirrel with a grenade launcher!
            6. 3danimal
              3danimal 17 October 2020 22: 38
              0
              We cannot build Burke. Dot. Moreover, with comparable terms (for the United States - about 5 years, how long the frigate 11356 takes from us). Suddenly it turns out that they have cool shipyards and a full production cycle ..
              BUT, we need new ships, as modern as possible and at the same time technologically advanced. Just for daily duty at least.
              And 11356 can at least stand up for itself: there is something to fight off a submarine and a pair of aircraft with anti-ship missiles. And RTOs will only die ingloriously.
          2. faiver
            faiver 10 January 2018 10: 35
            0
            New Year holidays and vacations affect laughing
      2. Aleksandr21
        Aleksandr21 10 January 2018 10: 15
        +7
        Quote: Serg65

        Oh, you are so smart that I even cried crying
        Before scolding the government and the Defense Ministry, tighten your brain and answer me ...... you urgently need to strengthen the marine grouping in the Black Sea and Baltic directions! Before the serial release of new projects of ships and power plants, it takes years, and you need now. There is a ready-made and worked out in production project of a power plant frigate to which you can buy and it will now be cheaper.
        Your actions, my friend ?????


        In some ways, Neputin is certainly right. He says in a comment that this had to be done much earlier, and not when all the deadlines are over, and the time comes to replace the ships, and there are no necessary gas turbines for them. And you are talking about the real ones, and at the moment it’s really possible to replace 11356 except for 22800 ”/“ There is nothing Karakurt. Do you think this is normal? When are the far-field watchtowers trying to replace near-field intercoms? Of course, RTOs in the Black Sea can carry out their tasks, the war in Syria has shown this, but there is not much hope for something here. For example, you need to equip a detachment of ships on a long hike, well, do not send RTOs? :) But Soviet-built ships are not eternal, and how to replace ships with a large displacement is a big and painful question. Therefore, the stone in the government garden is well deserved here.
        1. sd68
          sd68 10 January 2018 10: 38
          +2
          Do you know a lot of states that use weapons exclusively of their own manufacture and development?
          1. Aleksandr21
            Aleksandr21 10 January 2018 10: 45
            +1
            A little, probably only the USA has weapons and developments of its own production, and China in part (since there is a purchase of foreign weapons). And there was still the USSR .... NATO countries are closely connected with the United States in this regard. But why the question itself?
            1. sd68
              sd68 10 January 2018 11: 04
              0
              The USA is a clear exception, but even they have the English Harrier, the Italian Otto Melara, the Italian Beretta M9 which is exchanged for the French-Swiss Sig Sauer P320.
              The Chinese are actively using foreign developments, even if they produce their own weapons, and they are buying overseas aircraft engines, for example, Vashavyanka, Varyag, 956E and much more.
              1. Aleksandr21
                Aleksandr21 10 January 2018 11: 42
                0
                Yes, this is understandable, it was just necessary to think in advance how to act. And now we have 3 unfinished frigates, without gas turbines. And the situation with gas turbines was already known in 2014, could they find a way out for such a period? They have been waiting for the promised, as they say, 3 years, but not in this case, does the article generally have plans to sell 2 ships, but our Navy does not need them? I am sure that they are needed, but the possibility of producing and obtaining gas turbines in the short term can be seen not to wait.
                1. sd68
                  sd68 10 January 2018 12: 05
                  0
                  It seems that finding a solution is not easy ....
          2. arkadiyssk
            arkadiyssk 10 January 2018 14: 22
            +1
            Yes, even the Americans are not afraid for some reason to put RollsRoyce generators and turbines on their ships. Because they have no doubt in friendship with the Britons. In the modern world, no country can move independently in production and development. Russia’s hoping for its own strength is a very bad option, and it’s our fault that all our friends were saddened unfortunately. Belarusians and those thrown with the MZKT to please Kamaz.
            1. 3danimal
              3danimal 17 October 2020 22: 54
              0
              On Berks LM-2500. This is one of the best gas turbines in the world.
        2. Serg65
          Serg65 10 January 2018 10: 56
          +4
          Quote: Aleksandr21
          it had to be done much earlier, and not when all the deadlines were over, and the time came to replace the ships

          When before? From 91 to 99-th Shirley-Myrli in the country was, from 99-th to 2008-th with Chechnya sorted out and saved a denyuzhku among tm and on ships ...... when before? You really do not depart from temporary realities!
          Quote: Aleksandr21
          you are talking about real, and at the moment really replace 11356 except for 22800 ”/“ There is nothing Karakurt

          I'm talking about beginning of the 2010 year, it was then that the decision was made to quickly saturate the Black Sea Fleet and BF with new ships !!!!!
          Karakurt is a cheap and quick opportunity to saturate the fleet with rocket platforms and more!
          Now about the "cry of Yaroslavna"
          Quote: Aleksandr21
          Do you think this is normal? When are the far-field patrolmen trying to replace near-field intercoms?

          Well, firstly, such attempts, and I must say successful, have been undertaken under the Union!
          Secondly, in Soviet times, about 2 enterprises throughout the Union took part in the construction of a ship of 600 rank! Due to the greed of comrades with a party card in their pocket, most of these enterprises either sunk into the summer. or are abroad - so do not throw stones! In the words of Comrade Sa .. oh, what comrade, "Sperva think - a path to Gavri, huh?" hi
          1. Aleksandr21
            Aleksandr21 10 January 2018 11: 33
            +2
            Quote: Serg65

            When before? From 91 to 99-th Shirley-Myrli in the country was, from 99-th to 2008-th with Chechnya sorted out and saved a denyuzhku among tm and on ships ...... when before? You really do not depart from temporary realities!


            You want to say that there was no money in the country starting (approximately) from 2000-2008? Revenues from the extraction of natural resources and their export does not mean anything to you? At that time, our budget replenished very significantly, and our government believed that this would continue, but alas, the period of expensive oil and gas ended, and finally we had to take up domestic production ..... But how did we manage this money? that's another story.

            Quote: Serg65

            I'm talking about beginning of the 2010 year, it was then that the decision was made to quickly saturate the Black Sea Fleet and BF with new ships !!!!!
            Karakurt is a cheap and quick opportunity to saturate the fleet with rocket platforms and more!


            Of course, it was decided to at least somehow preserve the fleet that we got from the USSR. And then the pace of ship construction leaves much to be desired, do you recall the timing of construction? although you yourself know this very well. And the decision on the "fast saturation of the Black Sea Fleet and BF with new ships !!!!!" this is an attempt to quickly find a way out of this situation.
            1. Serg65
              Serg65 10 January 2018 11: 54
              +6
              Quote: Aleksandr21
              Revenues from the extraction of natural resources and their export does not mean anything to you?

              smile Design and modernization of aircraft, construction of new nuclear submarines, design and modernization of tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers, OTRK, DBK, modernization of defense industry plants, leveling the consequences of two financial crises - as I understand it, are there a penny ???
              Quote: Aleksandr21
              the pace of construction of ships leaves much to be desired, do you recall the timing of construction?

              winked Honestly, knowing the problems of related departments during the construction of ships under the Union, I am generally surprised that Russia is building ships now!
              1. Aleksandr21
                Aleksandr21 10 January 2018 12: 23
                +1
                Quote: Serg65

                smile Design and modernization of aircraft, construction of new nuclear submarines, design and modernization of tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers, OTRK, DBK, modernization of defense industry plants, leveling the consequences of two financial crises - as I understand it, are there a penny ???


                No, of course. It’s just that you should not forget about the fleet, because of our lack of funding, we decided to follow the path of least resistance i.e. bet on the mosquito fleet, and cover the sea borders .... and the fleet for the distant sea zone? Does our Navy have no tasks for him? The doctrine adopted in 2017, says something else, the task is to "preserve the second place in the world in terms of fleet power," but judging by the financing, this is from the realm of fantasy. The same Pacific Fleet, it’s even a shame to compare it with the neighbors of the Navy of Japan and China. And in fact there is nothing to replace the ships with ... .... as if we would not be without a fleet in the future.
                1. Serg65
                  Serg65 10 January 2018 12: 36
                  +6
                  Quote: Aleksandr21
                  you must not forget about the fleet

                  And they don’t forget about the fleet, they just do what they may need literally today and not in 5-10 years!
                  Let’s take, for example, Comrade Stalin, because before the 35 year the fleet was not only in the supporting roles, but generally in the tail, until the crisis with republican Spain broke out and it came to Comrade Stalin that the fleet was needed!
              2. Monarchist
                Monarchist 10 January 2018 14: 48
                0
                Kamrad Serg, I’m not a ship specialist, but I know that allies were let down and firmly made by the Union. Shirokorada has it, Voronov wrote about it, even in the Beret-controlled nuclear industry there were interruptions, and this industry was a priority and under the control of STALIN
                1. Serg65
                  Serg65 10 January 2018 14: 56
                  +6
                  laughing Comrade Monarchist - it sounds strange, okay wink
                  Welcome hi
                  Quote: Monarchist
                  I’m not a ship specialist, but I know that during the Union allies were failing and firmly failing

                  Why go far? Won Udalaya with covers for wells, that’s how he went all his life!
                  With past drinks
                  1. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA 10 January 2018 16: 06
                    +1
                    Quote: Serg65
                    Why go far? Won Udalaya with covers for wells, that’s how he went all his life!

                    And in the end, instead of the bow “Dagger”, “Kulakov” was stuck in the place of his antenna post as much as a whole “Bend”. sad
                    And at the time of the IVS, in all documents the phrase “the factory declined to conclude a contract” is regularly found. This is on the orders of the fleet, and on the orders of the GABTU. GTZA will not - the factory declined. There will be no spare parts for tank engines - the factory declined.
                2. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 10 January 2018 15: 50
                  +1
                  Quote: Monarchist
                  Shirokorad has this about it, Voronov wrote about it, even in the nuclear industry under control of Buryat, there were interruptions, and this industry was a priority and under the control of STALIN

                  Hehehehe ... at uv. Ulanova in LJ had a wonderful correspondence on the issue of manufacturing anti-aircraft CPV in 1944. Rate the level of involved:
                  By the decision of Comrade Beria L.P. dated April 14, 1944 to the People’s Commissar of Armaments comrade Ustinov D.F. entrusted to manufacture and deliver GAU KA:
                  1. 14,5 mm machine guns Vladimirov "KPV-44" 20 pcs. without installations, to ensure the experimental development of integrated anti-aircraft, tank, armored trains, etc. installations - by June 15, 1944
                  2. 14,5 mm machine guns Vladimirov "KPV-44" 30 pcs. on single anti-aircraft installations, for military tests - by July 1, 1944
                  However, to date, the plant number 2 has not passed the GAU KA, even the first batch of machine guns (without installations), as a result of which the actual experimental work is disrupted.
                  I will forgive your assistance and the relevant NKV decrees on taking measures to ensure the implementation of the decision of Comrade Beria on the delivery of GAU KA 14,5 mm machine guns Vladimirov "KPV-44" in the shortest possible time.
                  Please inform me of your decisions.

                  CHIEF OF THE MAIN ARTILLERY MANAGEMENT
                  Artillery Marshal Yakovlev
                  5 September 1944 of

                  As a result, all the terms agreed upon by the people's commissars and the heads of the Main Directorates crossed out Head of Housing Office Chief Engineer of Plant No. 2:
                  At present, Plant No. 2 did not start manufacturing a series of machine guns, having lost 15 days in time, and the chief engineer of Plant No. 2 informed me by letter of 3.5. 44 g. No. 166/7 stating that a series of machine guns would not be manufactured by 1.7.44g. and that it will be made only by 1.8.44g.

                  In addition, contrary to your report, comrade Beria, on the manufacture of a series of Vladimirov machine guns by July 1944, 2. (the deadline was agreed by you with the artillery marshal T. Yakovlev) the chief engineer of factory No. 2 informs me that the series cannot be made by factory No. 1 by June 1944, 1 and that it can only be expected by August 1944, XNUMX.

                  And there was nothing for this man ...
            2. bk316
              bk316 10 January 2018 19: 24
              +3
              Revenues from the extraction of natural resources and their export does not mean anything to you?

              They don’t seem to tell you, the roofing felts are short, the roofing felts are generally ball-blah.
              The average cost of brent oil from 2000 to 2004 is ~ $ 25 per barrel (TWENTY-FIVE CARL, in the “crisis” 2017, ALMOST TWO TIMES MORE)
              1. Aleksandr21
                Aleksandr21 10 January 2018 22: 14
                0
                Quote: bk316

                They don’t seem to tell you, the roofing felts are short, the roofing felts are generally ball-blah.
                The average cost of brent oil from 2000 to 2004 is ~ $ 25 per barrel (TWENTY-FIVE CARL, in the “crisis” 2017, ALMOST TWO TIMES MORE)


                Take an interest in the question of how the budget was formed for the period from 2000-2015 and what was the share of the sale of oil and gas revenues. To not write more such "smart" comments. Since 2004, 30%, 2005 - 42%, 2006 - 46%, and so on for years (the difference is a couple percent further, consider half of the budget revenues).
            3. 3danimal
              3danimal 17 October 2020 22: 57
              0
              and our government believed that this would continue, but alas, the period of expensive oil and gas ended, and finally we had to take up domestic production ...

              And what do you call it? Extreme unprofessionalism and infantilism?
          2. 3danimal
            3danimal 17 October 2020 22: 56
            0
            99th to 2008th dealt with Chechnya

            And they took out ~ $ 1 trillion to accounts in the United States.
            For all 10 years Chechnya prevented us from dealing with the topic of GTU, all the money went there. All petrodollars gushing on the rise in prices.
        3. Piramidon
          Piramidon 10 January 2018 14: 59
          0
          Quote: Aleksandr21
          He says in a comment that it had to be done much earlier,

          "History does not have a subjunctive mood," everyone has already passed and you won’t be able to play back. All these “needed before”, “where to look” - an empty concussion. Now they are already trying to correct this situation, given the very mistakes. So why turn your indignant statements into the past.
        4. 3danimal
          3danimal 17 October 2020 22: 45
          0
          The war in Syria showed that it is possible to launch a CD from the UKSK, according to previously known coordinates, in the absence of any opposition. This launcher could be placed on the bard, with the same result.
      3. Neputin
        Neputin 10 January 2018 11: 41
        +4
        I will answer for Serg65. I will be lenient to the rest of the "sick" ones.
        So.
        1. The need to strengthen the BSF arose in 2014-15. Before that, it was impossible to do this - Ukraine bound us hand and foot. It is a fact.
        2. Regarding the timing for the serial production of gas turbines. So I am about the same! Years needed! But if you carefully read my comment, it says that the problem was first voiced in 2000. What year is it now? What, in 17 years it was impossible to create an engine for a ship? Why not created? Where did you get the money? You do not answer these questions to me, but only advise you to "strain your brain." So I strain it and get, unfortunately, very unpleasant conclusions for you. And for me, by the way, too.
        3. Regarding our "sick" colleagues. Your sarcasm, dear Chertt, is not entirely appropriate. It is still unknown which of us is more a patriot - you are not willing to see obvious problems or others who want to discuss them. I would have helped to solve, but I can’t build ships.
        1. Neputin
          Neputin 10 January 2018 12: 15
          +4
          And further. For example, when planning an operation for an emergency patient, suggesting the onset of a particular force majeure situation, I ask my sister to prepare various instrumental or suture material. I may not need it, but it is necessary that at that moment everything necessary was at hand. In order not to rush about like a rat in the operating room and not to search for the right tool. Without pretending to lead an industry or a country, I believe that responsible people should calculate the probabilities of force majeure and take preventive measures to eliminate them, and not wipe their pants in their offices, publishing their "deep" thoughts in social media. networks.
          1. Serg65
            Serg65 10 January 2018 12: 32
            +4
            Quote: Neputin
            I, for example, planning an operation with an emergency patient

            Excellent!
            While you were doing the operation, your colleague came in and took the clamps (well, he really needs them, they won’t let them go into the European Union without them) and then something happened where the clamps are urgently needed, but they are not there !!! But you have prepared and taken everything into account, aren't you? But it was impossible to take into account a colleague!
            1. sd68
              sd68 10 January 2018 12: 42
              +2
              actually, a colleague came in after the clamps after you squeezed out a room in his apartment and tried the second wink
              Yes, and you obviously were teaching that something could happen, like, for example, helicopters did not remain without engines, VK-2500 began to do
              1. Serg65
                Serg65 10 January 2018 12: 49
                10
                Quote: sd68
                a colleague came in after the clamps after you squeezed out a room in his apartment and tried the second

                My dear Ukrainian friend, there are hostel laws and you would not have to make fires in the room, beat dishes, scoff at family members, you look and the room would remain behind you !!!
                1. sd68
                  sd68 10 January 2018 13: 18
                  0
                  I’m not very interested in politics, it’s all dirty, and the propaganda that you brought is even worse, but what laws are you talking about, since we are talking about laws?
                  About the Federal Law of the Russian Federation of March 2, 1999 N 42-ФЗ?
                  About the agreement on the creation of the CIS?
                  About article 15, paragraph 4 of the Constitution of the Russian Federation?
                  Or are they all some kind of unprofitable and incorrect laws that are less legal than other profitable laws?
                  1. Serg65
                    Serg65 10 January 2018 13: 32
                    +6
                    My dear friend, have you been squeezed out of your room? Gather courage and return your property or sue, what’s the problem?
                    1. sd68
                      sd68 10 January 2018 15: 29
                      0
                      You see how simple it is, there’s essentially nothing to answer.
                      and yet, yes, they squeezed out part of the common property - I used to be in Crimea 3-4 times a year for all holidays, but now it has become wildly uncomfortable.
                      One can only hope that all this stupidity, which occurs on all sides, will eventually resolve in the foreseeable future. sad ....
                      1. KaPToC
                        KaPToC 11 January 2018 08: 39
                        0
                        Quote: sd68
                        and yet, yes, they squeezed out part of the common property - I used to be in Crimea 3-4 times a year for all holidays, but now it has become wildly uncomfortable.

                        The property is not originally yours, assigned by you in a divorce.
                      2. 3danimal
                        3danimal 17 October 2020 23: 01
                        0
                        Initially Greek (first settlement), after - Crimean (Crimean Tatar).
                        So whose is it, what time period to take?
                    2. Serg65
                      Serg65 11 January 2018 08: 55
                      +5
                      Quote: sd68
                      there is essentially nothing to answer

                      My dear friend, if I answer in essence, you will not like my answer very much!
                      Quote: sd68
                      and yet yes, squeezed out part of the common property

                      laughing As your quasi-state was born in a lie, so its life ends in a lie! Of course, you can come up with all kinds of fantasies about the greatness of Ukraine, but I watched the birth of the Ukrainian state, its army and especially its fleet with my own eyes, moreover, these tribal torments passed through my fate with a black line!
                      Quote: sd68
                      One can only hope that all this stupidity, which occurs on all sides, will eventually resolve in the foreseeable future.

                      smile There is nothing eternal under the moon!
                    3. 3danimal
                      3danimal 17 October 2020 23: 01
                      0
                      and ends his life in a lie!

                      Reasons to say it ends?
          2. Monarchist
            Monarchist 10 January 2018 14: 29
            0
            It’s a pity that helicopters without engines did not leave
        2. Neputin
          Neputin 10 January 2018 14: 47
          0
          Humor appreciated, thank you, but seriously, we don’t do it. Corporate fraternity, you know .....
    2. Serg65
      Serg65 10 January 2018 12: 26
      +7
      Quote: Neputin
      The need to strengthen the Black Sea Fleet arose in the 2014-15 years

      At the same time, the troika of the Black Sea Admirals was laid in the 10, 11 and 12 years ..... interesting?
      Quote: Neputin
      Before that, it was impossible to do this - Ukraine bound us hand and foot. It is a fact.

      Hmm .... they were supposed to be based in Novorossiysk, for which they built a military port there. It is a fact!
      Quote: Neputin
      problem first voiced in 2000 year

      I’ll correct you a little bit, this problem was voiced back in the 1993 year, it was then that the FCM in Rybinsk was determined to be the base of Russian gas turbine construction, but normal financing began only in the 2005 year. The lack of design documentation, equipment, spare parts, specialists, led to the fact that everything had to start from scratch!
      All would be fine, but in the 13 year, several ships of the 11540 and 1155 ave. and then Yaroslav’s GTU was covered before the battle, the GTU repair of the operating ships was decided to be carried out in Russia and all forces were thrown to the repair base, and for 11356 Ave. they were decided to purchase in Ukraine in order to save time and money.
      Quote: Neputin
      very unpleasant conclusions for you.

      My friend, for me there is nothing sad in your conclusions, because I am not only a retirement person, but also a production worker and I understand perfectly well what it means to make candy on my knees wink
      1. Neputin
        Neputin 10 January 2018 14: 44
        +2
        It turns out that we are talking about the same thing, in different words. difference in details. But I don’t have any questions to the manufacturers who are forced to make candy on their knees. questions to those people who manage and plan all this. Moreover, I have infinite respect for people who, in the current conditions, are still trying to do something decent, regardless of penny salaries or mediocre leadership, theft of power and other adverse factors. For sim forced to take off, because Need to work. Thank you all for the productive discussion, I learned something new for myself.
        1. Serg65
          Serg65 10 January 2018 14: 47
          +5
          Have a nice one you too hi
    3. Servisinzhener
      Servisinzhener 11 January 2018 11: 14
      0
      Let me remind you that before the Ukrainian events of 14 years there was no urgent need for their own engines. Because it was possible to purchase at least Ukrainian, at least MTU at least anything. What was cheaper than building their production from scratch. There were expressions in styles that would be nice of course, and sluggish work in this direction. And how did you know that the next revolution in Kiev would lead to such results, and not to the continuation of the "circus" in the same style.
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 17 October 2020 23: 03
        +1
        That is, the whole world was open to us?
        Then the question: did the people who made decisions, who closed this World in many ways, did they even think about such problems?
        1. Servisinzhener
          Servisinzhener 18 October 2020 09: 32
          0
          In general, yes. Was opened.
          Of course we didn't.
          1. 3danimal
            3danimal 18 October 2020 12: 11
            0
            Now we have what we have.
            Interestingly, it would be possible to play back: to stop supporting the Makhnovism in the DPR / LPR, to transfer the border with the Russian Federation under the control of Ukraine (from the side of Donetsk and Lugansk regions). Under this, most of the sanctions could be lifted, and relations with the western neighbor improved at the same time.
            You have to see when it's time to back up.
            Well, with the downed MH-17: if it's really to blame, put the general as a switchman, put him in jail (he will suddenly commit suicide) admit his guilt and pay compensation, 50 million.
            IMHO, but this is called foreign policy. And not boyish (infantile) "and don't prove it!" , "And we are not there" and "and we do not accept evidence", which only irritate the other side and lead to tightening of restrictions.
            1. Servisinzhener
              Servisinzhener 18 October 2020 20: 56
              0
              One could agree with you if it were not for the events of the late eighties and all the nineties. Shown "Effective" in Foreign Policy Concept: Let's Get Good.
              1. 3danimal
                3danimal 18 October 2020 21: 27
                0
                Remind me: in those years we were suddenly attacked and occupied, am I using our kindness? (To which, by the way, they were forced to go, since the "native" party destroyed the economy.) No, they gave loans and delivered humanitarian aid. The activity of the US Navy in the spirit of the early 80s came to naught (for example, a huge training operation of two AUGs in 1982 in the Pacific Ocean, with the leading of our reconnaissance and successful training of strikes on Kamchatka), the number of its troops in Europe was reduced by 10 times. It turned out that they were not eager to fight with us (as Soviet propaganda taught).
                The proposed steps are precisely in the spirit of a sensible policy: at the very least, it is foolish to play the "bad" while being in a not very advantageous position. (Note, I did not say anything about Crimea). The profit greatly outweighs the "concessions". And I never liked what the South-East of Ukraine was turned into. (Is this a showcase of the "Russian world"? Horror ..)
      2. 3danimal
        3danimal 18 October 2020 17: 07
        0
        Here everything was aggravated by the reaction of the Russian leadership. IMHO, they simply did not want to endure new shocks in the neighboring country, which, in their opinion, should be our satellite.
        I am sure that if they had not taken such radical actions (Crimea, South-East), cooperation with Zorya would have continued. As well as the lease of the Port could be extended.
    4. 3danimal
      3danimal 17 October 2020 22: 47
      0
      Before that, it was impossible to do this - Ukraine bound us hand and foot. It is a fact.

      And how did she connect us? Did you forbid building ships? GTU, did you sell aircraft engines?
      On TV and on the Internet, the media launched a campaign in 2014 and people repeat what they are told .. Not goldfish, I guess.
  3. Stirbjorn
    Stirbjorn 10 January 2018 11: 56
    0
    Quote: Serg65
    you urgently need to strengthen the marine grouping in the Black Sea and Baltic directions!

    not to strengthen, but to renew at least - at such a pace of shipbuilding, combat efficiency does not increase, over the past year one fleet and one frigate were accepted for all fleets and then, the first unfinished building
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 10 January 2018 12: 39
      +4
      Quote: Stirbjorn
      not reinforce, but renew

      You could upgrade with motor boats from the Khimki reservoir!
  4. Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 10 January 2018 15: 16
    +1
    Quote: Serg65
    Quote: Neputin
    This has long been clear to all sane people, with the exception of our government and the Moscow Region.

    Oh, you are so smart that I even cried crying
    Before scolding the government and the Defense Ministry, tighten your brain and answer me ...... you urgently need to strengthen the marine grouping in the Black Sea and Baltic directions! Before the serial release of new projects of ships and power plants, it takes years, and you need now. There is a ready-made and worked out in production project of a power plant frigate to which you can buy and it will now be cheaper.
    Your actions, my friend ?????

    Everything is correct, everything is logical. But there is a question. Why does the government decide (?) Issues as they become available, and not work to ensure that such issues do not arise? If they are not capable of it, then why did they agree to work in the government? The government has tremendous opportunities. The only question is the ability of the government to realize these opportunities. That is why we should not be lenient to our government. To whom much has been given, there is greater demand.
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 11 January 2018 09: 03
      +4
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      Why does the government decide (?) Issues as they become available, and not work to ensure that such issues do not arise?

      What do you think, when a country leaves the Zapoya, how many questions arise simultaneously? Over the 17 years of the power of GDP, has Russia moved forward or is it still treading water as it was at the turn of the zero?
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      To whom much has been given, there is greater demand.

      And here I very much agree with you !!!!
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 17 October 2020 23: 04
        0
        Excuses. This is possible until 2100 smile
  5. sabotage
    sabotage 11 January 2018 10: 07
    0
    Quote: Serg65
    Before scolding the government and the Defense Ministry, tighten your brain and answer me ...... you urgently need to strengthen the marine grouping in the Black Sea and Baltic directions! Before the serial release of new projects of ships and power plants, it takes years, and you need now. There is a ready-made and worked out in production project of a power plant frigate to which you can buy and it will now be cheaper.


    The most likely adversary of the Black Sea Fleet and Baltic Fleet is the Navy of NATO members. Installing on ships that must withstand the GEM of the production of a likely enemy means putting at risk the repair and restoration work on them in an endangered period. Bottom line: there are ships, and their work depends on the enemy. Ingenious multi-way!
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 11 January 2018 10: 58
      +4
      Quote: sabotage
      Installing on ships that are supposed to withstand the power plants of the production of a potential enemy means to jeopardize

      what Have you any relatives with the NKVD?
      Quote: sabotage
      Ingenious multi-way!

      laughing I’ll tell you more than that, V.S. Stalin in the 1932 year, repeated in the 33-m, and this multi-walk was continued in the 47 and 48 years.
      Everything new is long forgotten old wink
    2. 3danimal
      3danimal 17 October 2020 23: 05
      0
      Is Ukraine a Potential Adversary in 2010?
  • Monarchist
    Monarchist 10 January 2018 14: 23
    0
    Alas, this has happened before, but now amid the confusion and the market ...
  • Dimmedroll
    Dimmedroll 12 January 2018 18: 50
    0
    This is not so everywhere such nonsense with contractors.
  • Bronevick
    Bronevick 10 January 2018 10: 44
    +1
    Since 2014, they are trying to master the production of gas turbine engines. The question is, what is the IQ of the chief engineer of NPO Saturn?
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 10 January 2018 11: 08
      +5
      Quote: Bronevick
      What is the IQ of the chief engineer of NPO Saturn?

      Figs with him with an engineer, how are you doing with IQ?
      To the Ukrainian Dawn, in order to come to a modern gas turbine, it took 10 years under the Union, and you want the same thing as riveting pies on the market? What will you rivet from? I dare to ask?
      1. Bronevick
        Bronevick 10 January 2018 12: 45
        0
        That is, I didn’t even have enough intelligence to buy documentation or copy it quietly, or at least steal it? Yes, even if they could buy engines through India, since we ourselves can’t. Just no desire. The Americans, whatever they were, would be just stolen, taken out quietly from the warehouse of Dawns, the country's defense capability depends on it.
        1. Serg65
          Serg65 10 January 2018 12: 53
          +4
          Quote: Bronevick
          That is, I didn’t even have enough intelligence to buy documentation or copy it quietly, or at least steal it?

          And a bunch of emigrant specialists with a characteristic pronunciation of the letter "G", on which side appeared on Saturn?
          1. Bronevick
            Bronevick 10 January 2018 12: 53
            0
            Did this solve the problem? Or without it, what would they not be able to do at all?
            1. Serg65
              Serg65 10 January 2018 12: 59
              +5
              Quote: Bronevick
              Or without it, what would they not be able to do at all?

              This helped to solve the problem, by the way, like the German rocket specialists, they helped the great Korolev, and the documents stolen from Los Alamos helped Kurchatov! wink
        2. CommanderDIVA
          CommanderDIVA 10 January 2018 13: 42
          0
          What you propose looks like reconnaissance in the territory of another state, this requires political will, if such a need would be needed for our units, this is generally not a problem
        3. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 10 January 2018 14: 21
          +3
          Quote: Bronevick
          That is, I didn’t even have enough intelligence to buy documentation or copy it quietly, or at least steal it?

          If everything was so simple, then the same Somalia could become an economic giant. The point is to steal documentation and specialists.
          Design and technology are only half the battle. In Nikolaev there was the only "iron" for the gas turbine engine - the test bench - for the whole USSR.
          Quote: Bronevick
          Yes, even if they could buy engines through India, since we ourselves can’t.

          But the Indians need it - to remain in the midst of the construction of the fleet without a gas turbine engine?
          Understand that in the world only 3 companies have a full cycle of gas-turbine engine production. All other manufacturers cooperate with them. And there is no free market here - all export of "secondary" gas turbine engines is under the strict control of one of these three. Does the buyer not like it? Buyer's problems - the contract is broken, the buyer pays fines and thinks what to do with ships without a cargo customs declaration.
          Therefore, for export ships being built for India and Vietnam, there is a gas turbine engine. But for the ships of the Russian Navy - no.
          1. Golovan Jack
            Golovan Jack 10 January 2018 15: 14
            +5
            Quote: Alexey RA
            in the world only 3 companies have a full cycle of gas turbine engine production. All other manufacturers cooperate with them. And there is no free market here - all export of "secondary" gas turbine engines goes under the strict control of one of these three

            It's time to do the FAK ... In my memory, you (and not only you) are already explaining this for the hundredth time, probably laughing
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 10 January 2018 15: 31
              +1
              Quote: Golovan Jack
              It's time to do the FAK ... In my memory, you (and not only you) are already explaining this for the hundredth time, probably laughing

              Yeah ... and then you have to enter access to comment based on an exam to read the FAQ. Because no one reads the FAQ so simply - they only send it there. smile
              1. Golovan Jack
                Golovan Jack 10 January 2018 16: 27
                +4
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Because no one reads the FAQ so simply - they only send

                Well ... but there will be where to send.
                "And you go ... to FAC!". Does that sound IMHO yes ...
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 10 January 2018 14: 14
      +2
      Quote: Bronevick
      Since 2014, they are trying to master the production of gas turbine engines. The question is, what is the IQ of the chief engineer of NPO Saturn?

      I still wildly apologize, but testing a gas turbine engine on a paper stand (stage P or P) is impossible. The first stage of the stand in iron was ready only in 2017.
      1. arkadiyssk
        arkadiyssk 10 January 2018 14: 30
        0
        What kind of stand is it so complicated that it takes 3 years to craft? Who will believe in this story?
        1. Serg65
          Serg65 10 January 2018 14: 42
          +6
          Quote: arkadiyssk
          Who will believe in this story?

          laughing laughing laughing But who makes you believe ???
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 10 January 2018 15: 05
          +2
          Quote: arkadiyssk
          What kind of stand is it so complicated that it takes 3 years to craft? Who will believe in this story?


          The complex includes: two test benches for gas turbine engines with power - the first up to 15 MW, the second up to 40 MW; areas for incoming inspection, storage, assembly and preparation for testing; diesel fuel storage with underground tanks for supplying summer and winter grades of fuel separately for diesel and gas turbine engines; Administrative and household complex for accommodation of engineering and technical personnel. The total area of ​​the building of the complex is 1 ha, the land area with access roads is almost 2 ha.

          Let me remind you that the great and mighty USSR was able to build only 1 ship gas-turbine engine production plant. The performance of which was already lacking in the 70s, as evidenced by the history of the GEM pr. 956.
          1. Nemchinov Vl
            Nemchinov Vl 13 May 2018 11: 29
            0
            Let me remind you that the great and mighty USSR was able to build only 1 ship gas-turbine engine production plant. The performance of which was already lacking in the 70s, as evidenced by the history of the GEM pr. 956.
            Then it is all the more unclear to me for what reason, since 2014 (if not since 2010), the Russian Federation began to try to establish its gas turbine engine building on the basis of one single enterprise - NPO Saturn, instead of (realizing that this the process will be lengthy and painful) on the basis of two or three enterprises (possibly having experience in repairing gas turbines, such as the Kronstadt Marine Plant, Metalist-Samara or Dieselzipservice) try to arrange the production of the most complete line (in terms of power indicators) of analogues such demanded engines as DT-59, M8-KF, DK-59, DS71, or D063 / M-63, DS77, D-090, (setting each enterprise with the task of mastering 3-4 types of gas turbine engines) which are so necessary for modern shipbuilding.
      2. Serg65
        Serg65 10 January 2018 14: 34
        +5
        Quote: Alexey RA
        The first stage of the stand in iron was ready only in the 2017 year.

        hi Hello Alexey
        And who cares?
        Moreover, “specialists” often cite the example of the USSR in the prime of life, but how the USSR came to the Ocean Fleet and they don’t want to know! Many people think that a gas turbine engine is no more difficult than a hamburger. bloopers and ready, what is there to think then ???
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 10 January 2018 15: 13
          0
          Quote: Serg65
          At the same time, “specialists” often cite the example of the USSR in the prime of life, but how the USSR came to the Ocean Fleet and do not want to know!

          Greetings!
          "Specialists" do not even remember the shortage of ship gas-turbine engines in the USSR of the period heyday of stagnation, because of which we got "steamers", etc. 956. sad
          1. San Sanych
            San Sanych 10 January 2018 16: 04
            +1
            there was no need to provide free assistance to Asia and Africa, then there would be no shortage, and unfortunately this vicious practice continues now, debts of 110 billion green killed raccoons were written off to former allies, and the heaps themselves have problems, even children for treatment by SMS China, which is much richer now, doesn’t have to make such fortunes, collects everything for a pretty penny, although friendship itself also repays in full, as the saying goes, friendship is friendship, and tobacco is apart
            1. 3danimal
              3danimal 17 October 2020 23: 09
              0
              Thus, the wisest Party in the world was at the head. She put people in jail for doing business, but she considered it her duty to help any crooks who used socialist rhetoric.
  • San Sanych
    San Sanych 10 January 2018 15: 07
    0
    Karakurts are certainly good, but all the same, frigate class ships are no match, and frigates need to be in sufficient numbers, this is perhaps the most necessary and universal class of ships, we can say the backbone of the surface fleet. But at the same time, one should not forget about other classes of ships, the fleet should be balanced.
    1. Golovan Jack
      Golovan Jack 10 January 2018 15: 21
      +6
      You just said that "it is better to be rich and healthy than the poor and sick."

      Why did you say that? recourse

      Well, it seems, obviously wink
      1. San Sanych
        San Sanych 10 January 2018 15: 47
        0
        Of course it’s obvious, but not for everyone. wink
    2. 3danimal
      3danimal 17 October 2020 23: 11
      0
      It is good to chase poachers off the coast and launch the CD at known coordinates. They cannot conduct a sea battle with an equal opponent. The fact that the attacked submarines will learn after being hit by a torpedo will not be able to fight off anti-ship missiles.
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 10 January 2018 20: 43
    0
    frigates are not bad in terms of price-quality ratio, but fr. Gorshkov is better, launching the 11356 series in this way was a mistake, having and building two frigate projects at the same time is inconvenient, and so now there are already four frigate projects in operation, and with a series of large corvettes close in capabilities to 11356, 6 projects are obtained ..... you need to stop laying all frigates and aircraft-carrying corvettes, as well as destroyers and cruisers, not to mention all kinds of nonsense like UDC, and release only Gorshkov Frigates for the oceans to replace cruisers with destroyers and BOD, but in series, and make small ships for sea areas, and here is the program to expand the construction of submarines, nuclear submarines and minesweepers
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 11 January 2018 10: 14
      +1
      Quote: vladimir1155
      frigates are not bad in terms of price-quality ratio, but fr. Pots are better

      In theory - Yes. But practically - FR pr.11356 already have military service, and pr. 22350 still can not surrender to the fleet.
      Quote: vladimir1155
      launching 11356 in this way was a mistake

      No. The launch of 11356 was a safety net in case of problems with Gorshkov (which were not slow to appear) and a way to urgently rearm the Black Sea Fleet, in which the surface ship brigade was a floating museum. By that time, ships were serving at the Black Sea Fleet, which were already considered obsolete in Soviet times - Project 61, Project 1135, Project 1134B. Moreover, each project - one unit.
      In the same way, for the army aviation, they made secure with the purchases of the Mi-35 - at the time of fine-tuning the Ka-52 and Mi-28. And they didn’t lose either - for the epic from ATGM on new helicopters dragged on, EMNIP, until 2015.
      Quote: vladimir1155
      to have and build two frigate projects at the same time is inconvenient

      At the time of the decision to order the FR 11356 project, similar ships were already being built - for India. So there were no particular inconveniences in the construction. Moreover, for 11356 there was a proven technology and a chain of allies.
      Quote: vladimir1155
      and produce only Gorshkov Frigates for the oceans to replace cruisers with destroyers and BOD, but in series

      Without an air defense system? wink
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 11 January 2018 20: 21
        0
        there was no sharpness in large NK at the Black Sea Fleet, given the uselessness of the Baltic Fleet, it was possible to throw four aircraft-carrying corvettes and a frigate from there, still take a couple of frigates from the CFL, or you could force Buyanov and patiently wait for Gorshkov with an air defense system
    2. Every
      Every 12 January 2018 02: 27
      +1
      Quote: vladimir1155
      frigates are not bad in terms of price and quality, but fr. Gorshkov is better, launching the 11356 series in this way was a mistake, having and building two frigate projects at the same time is inconvenient, and so now there are already four frigate projects in operation, and with a series of large corvettes close in capabilities to 11356, 6 projects are obtained .....

      Not entirely true, the 22350 frigate project is completely new, and as with any new product, difficulties arose that were not resolved.
      Project 11356 frigates have already been built for India and have been mastered.
      And the composition of the Black Sea Fleet needed to be updated, but it is impossible to do this through the construction of frigates 22350, they still not brought to mind.
      And most importantly, frigates on the project 22350 will be built 3 units. "Gorshkov", "Kasatonov", "Golovko"
      Later is planned build ships according to project 22350M with increased displacement.
      So the question arises; Where to get ships for the Black Sea Fleet?
      It was not a mistake, it was a lack of options.
      As for RTOs, these are essentially floating missile silos.
      Under the agreement on limiting short- and medium-range missiles, these same missiles cannot be deployed on land, but on sea carriers it is possible.
      Therefore, they are built with powerful strike weapons, but practically without air defense. Ground-based air defense systems must close them from the air. And from this it follows that they can’t move far from their native shores (air defense batteries).
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 12 January 2018 10: 41
        0
        all right, but why build ships with increased displacement, isn’t it better to continue the pot series? why have several projects of three ships?
        1. Every
          Every 12 January 2018 11: 03
          +1
          Just look at the stuffing of this ship.
          Displacement max. 4500 tons. But at the same time they tried to shove a bunch of weapons and systems into a relatively small building. At the level of ships of the 1st rank (destroyers).
          Apparently, to place all the weapons and systems could only be on paper, but in practice there were problems.
          Although the idea is not bad, to build a ship of the 2nd rank with the capabilities of ships of the 1st rank.
          But apparently, until fate.
      2. Nemchinov Vl
        Nemchinov Vl 13 May 2018 11: 56
        0
        In the future, it is planned to build ships under the project 22350M with increased displacement. ???

        Do they already have a gas turbine? If you mean a power plant similar to the M-5 gas turbine engine, where the M-70 FRU is planned to be replaced by the main engines, and the role of the afterburner M-90 FR (then, purely hypothetically, in terms of power indicators), it might be worth building not mythical (not even embodied on paper, pr. 22350M, and the finished pr.11560 (where there are 24 air-guided missiles for the Caliber / Onyx, and the long-range / zonal air defense system Fort-M, which may only need to finalize the principles of operation of the Zaslon radar (with AFAR), for a review of 360 instead of 90 degrees. Probably to improve (modernize) this project will be both easier and cheaper than coming up with a zero - 22350M?
        1. Every
          Every 13 May 2018 13: 30
          0
          Quote: Nemchinov Vl
          In the future, it is planned to build ships under the project 22350M with increased displacement. ???

          Do they already have a gas turbine?

          With GTU problems for all large ships.
          perhaps it’s worth building not mythical (not embodied even on paper, pr. 22350M, but already ready pr.11560 (where there are 24 air-defense systems for Caliber / Onyx, and the complex of long-range / zonal air defense Fort-M, which perhaps only costs finalize the working principles of the Barrier radar (with AFAR), for a review of 360 instead of 90 degrees.

          So after all, 11560 was realized only on paper. In fact, this is a combined project of 1155 and 956, with a displacement of more than 10 tons. The project is not bad, not bad at all, but its time has passed.
          Etc. 11560 is already in the niche of the Leader project, but they did not intend to build it, let alone older projects
          1. Nemchinov Vl
            Nemchinov Vl 14 May 2018 11: 49
            0
            Quote: Every
            The project is not bad, not bad at all, but its time has passed.

            And why actually passed? And what do you see better today, as a supplement to the EM class NK?

    3. 3danimal
      3danimal 17 October 2020 23: 12
      0
      Take an interest in the timing of the construction of Gorshkov and the functionality of his weapons at the moment (radar and air defense systems).
      And pr 11356 was built in 4-5 years, completely finished.
  • Conductor
    Conductor 11 January 2018 02: 00
    +1
    And in the photo, boats, is it not Ukrainian battleships?
    1. Conductor
      Conductor 11 January 2018 02: 02
      0
      What type, Shche didn’t die and Nenko Okayna)))
  • Northern warrior
    Northern warrior 11 January 2018 02: 36
    +1
    The fleet has never been the main striking force of our aircraft, so you should not worry so much for it. An attempt to replace ships of the 1st rank with various RTOs and corvettes is a waste of money and time, because they are almost useless against the US and British fleets, and our Air Force and Air Force can easily get rid of East European "friends". The only powerful component of the fleet is the Borey-class SSBN and MAPL of projects 971, 885, as well as nuclear cruisers.
    Priority should be given to the most important components of the armed forces:
    1. Strategic Rocket Forces
    2. VKS
    3. SV and Airborne
    4. Navy (nuclear submarine fleet)
    1. sabotage
      sabotage 11 January 2018 10: 09
      +1
      Peter the Great, Nakhimov and Ushakov are very surprised at such statements. They won the fleets, as it were.

      It’s not by chance that I’m working in the Moscow Region, otherwise the level of understanding of the problems corresponds to the level of the general from the headquarters.
      1. Northern warrior
        Northern warrior 11 January 2018 23: 33
        +1
        In the ⅩⅩ century, the decisive role in our victories was played by ground forces and aviation, not the fleet. The RI / USSR fleet often turned out to be locked up by the enemy at its bases, and therefore could not have a decisive influence on the outcome of land battles. Yes, there were some significant successes of our submariners, but they also fade against the performance of the US and British fleets.
        1. Vladimir1155
          Vladimir1155 12 January 2018 10: 43
          0
          even in World War I, the latest battleships were hiding in the bases, here is a proof of the unnecessaryness of large surface ships
    2. 3danimal
      3danimal 18 October 2020 06: 30
      0
      OK. About SSBNs: who will cover them in the areas on duty? Indeed, in a threatening period, they will try to "knock out".
      I will say right away that keeping them "at the pier" is even worse: they can be destroyed with one disarming blow. Immediately -30-40% strategic nuclear warheads - gorgeous good
      So, SSBNs should be protected by the MAPL and the surface fleet. RTOs are completely useless here.
  • LeonidL
    LeonidL 11 January 2018 02: 59
    0
    The article has a lot of unnecessary repetitions.
  • sd68
    sd68 11 January 2018 10: 10
    0
    Serg65,
    Oh, it started.
    Since you already raised the question of laws, I asked you a very specific question specifically about them in order to understand your position.
    But you ignored him.
    Instead, they piled on a bunch of frankly propagandistic nonsense, forgive me, about which, of course, I will not answer, for these purposes you better write to some stubborn Bandera, the conversation will go at the same level, I’m not interested in that.
    I respect the answers on the merits, but on the merits of a specific question for you, you have not written anything.
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 11 January 2018 11: 03
      +5
      Quote: sd68
      Oh, it started.

      laughing Well, if you look, you yourself got into a conversation with your room!
      So do not demand!
  • Valery Saitov
    Valery Saitov 11 January 2018 12: 36
    +1
    Within the framework of import substitution, NPO Saturn has been conducting three development work on the M2014FR, Agregat-DKVP and M90FRU-R engines since 70, told FlotProm at the United Engine Corporation (UDC). New engines of Russian production will equip the 22350 and 11356 frigates, a small landing craft on the Zubr airbag, as well as other ships and vessels of the Russian Navy.
    The launch of the serial production of marine gas turbine engines at the Rybinsk NPO Saturn in 2018 will make the Russian Navy independent of imported gas turbine units. And since the development of Saturn is more modern than the products of Nikolaev Zorya-Mashproekt (Ukraine), they have a slightly higher efficiency. According to Vladimir Putin, the efficiency of domestic engines will increase by 10-15%, because it is "a more modern technique compared to the one that we took before"
    1. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 11 January 2018 20: 24
      0
      all is well just do not write about 10-15 percent increase in efficiency, there will not be such