Military Review

"Thunder-2" mixed with "Dongfans". Where do the legs of the Ukrainian OTBR grow and is it too early if we laugh?

89



In early December 2017, the general director of the Ukrainian state-owned enterprise NPO Pavlograd Chemical Plant Leonid Shiman made a rather unexpected and contradictory statement about entering the Thunder-2 operational tactical missile system into the final phase, which even then created a real “dump” in Runet »From the comments left by both opponents and supporters of the criminal Kiev regime. The first ones traditionally (in the standard marasmic form) defended the swift adoption of the “Thunder” into service with the Ukrainian formations with the possibility of “shelling of the Central Russia from the positions in the Sumy region”. The latter, as standard, without particularly thinking about the details of what is happening, began to make fun of the project, emphasizing the lack of experience, capabilities and financial resources of the Yuzhnoye Design Bureau enterprises and NPO Pavlograd Chemical Plant enterprises under their control. An even bigger commotion in the network began after placing video demonstration bench tests of prototypes of accelerating stages with solid-propellant rocket engines, one of which ended with an explosion and the demolition of the demonstrator at the final stage of burning a solid fuel charge due to an unforeseen pressure jump above the allowable limit.

During the period from the publication of the project’s existence (2013 year) to the beginning of bench tests (the end of 2017 year), the program has acquired many useless myths that often distract us from the threats that may arise after the first OTRK has acquired operational combat readiness. What do we know about this project? It can be said for sure that it is a conceptual analogue of the early draft of the operational and tactical missile complex Borysfen, which was created within the walls of the Dnepropetrovsk Yuzhnoye Design Bureau in 1994, and after a few years had to replace the outdated Elbrus 9К72 complexes. "And 9K79-1" Point-U ". It was planned to equip the prospective operational-tactical ballistic missile Borysfen (OTB) with a guidance system with a new element base.

It was supposed to include not just a more advanced command-gyro device with a fiber-optic or ring laser gyroscopes, but a gyroscopic inertial measurement module + a more advanced optical-electronic correlation unit-GOS with a possible option in the form of a GPS navigation module that would provide rocket KVO about 15 - 20 m. According to the plan of specialists of Yuzhnoye Design Bureau, the Borisfen rocket in speed of the march flight was significantly ahead of the Elbrus OTBR and the OTBR 8М14 -9 komplesa "Tochka-U" to improve the capacity to overcome the enemy's missile defense. It is obvious that the Ukrainians made an alignment on the high-speed operational-tactical ballistic missile 79М1 of the Oka complex, the detachable warhead of which turned into 9 - 714 - a degree dive at a speed of about 80 km / h on the approach section of the trajectory. This was also confirmed by plans to give Borisfen a range of 90 km. Nevertheless, against the backdrop of the difficult economic situation of the middle - the end of 10500-s, the project, to our happiness, remained at the level of sketches. Otherwise, at the beginning of the escalation of the Donbass in 500, when the militia did not have the proper air defense systems and was not familiar with the operation of these weapons at all, in the hands of Kiev would be completely "tested" at the landfills tactical missile system capable of more long distances to hit the peaceful cities of LDNR and advanced units of the Armed Forces of Novorossia.

However, the Ukrainian militarized formations and without a new complex for more than three years have created intolerable living conditions for the peaceful Russian population of the Lugansk and Donetsk people's republics using barreled and rocket artillery, as well as the Tochka-U OTRK. Fortunately, a certain amount of Tor-M1 and other air defense systems capable of intercepting “Points”, moving at speeds from 600 to 800 m / s, appeared on the NM LDNR units. However, this does not completely eliminate the problems of the possible adoption of the "Thunder-2". In 2009, the draft of the finalized OTRK Borysfen reappeared in the list of promising defense programs “Square”, but already under the name Sapsan. The product was supposed to be equipped with a promising guidance system based on miniature solid-state MEMS-semiconductor gyroscopes (possibly in staff ADXRS150 (300), as well as accelerometer ADXL330, as was done on the first Iskands. ” during 4 years (until 2013), while the then Minister of Defense, the regional Pavel Lebedev, did not announce the closure of an ambitious project, which the Yuzhnoye Design Bureau and the Southern Machine-Building Plant were working on. At the same time, problems with The financing of Sapsan started back in 2010 year.

As for the “Thunder-2”, the information about the start of development appeared on 1 September 2016 of the year on the Ukrainian resource depo.ua with reference to “Design Bureau“ Yuzhnoye ”and“ Pavlograd Chemical Plant ”. Moreover, it became known that the enterprise developers secured financial support for the Persian regional superpower - Saudi Arabia (the acceleration of the design pace is due to the interest of Riyadh against the background of failed contracts for the purchase of Russian “Iskander-M” and American “ATACMS”) This radically changes the situation. The Saudis who invested more than 40 million into the project will surely check that the new product will become operationally ready as soon as possible. And the opinion of some commentators and “experts” is very erroneous that with 64-year experience in designing various types of medium-range ballistic missiles, ICBMs and launch vehicles, the former OKB-586 (now Yuzhnoye Design Bureau) will stretch the design of the “Thunder-2” for a whole decade; Do not forget that the project is supervised by Riyadh. Now about another interesting detail regarding the origin of the complex "Thunder-2".

We all know that the Ministry of Defense and aviation Saudi Arabia has an approximately 30 year old history cooperation with Chinese research institutes and state aerospace companies. So, back in 88, the Royal Saudi Strategic Missile Forces, in secret from the US, purchased from the Celestial Empire more than 50 medium-range ballistic missiles DF-3A in peak of the Israeli lobby in the US Congress, because of which Washington refused to allow Riyadh to acquire E-3A Sentry long-range radar detection and control aircraft. Later, in the middle of 2000, a scandal broke out about the acquisition by Saudi Arabia of even more advanced MRFM DF-21 with the permission of the White House, which was partially described in the book “Patriot Lost” by American analyst and naval engineer Jonathan Scherk. At the present stage, this cooperation is expressed in the purchase of 300 advanced long-range attack and reconnaissance UAVs “Pterodactyl-II” (“Wing Loong-II”) worth about 10 billion dollars. In other words, Riyadh may well acquire from Beijing also documentation on other types of weapons, besides those that possess unique constructive and radio-electronic elements using critical technologies.

Now let's turn our gaze to the 5-based mobile all-terrain launcher developed by KrAZ or the Design Bureau for them. Morozova (GP KMBM). At its base, we see a rather bulky paired launcher with heavy transport-launch containers ~ 8,5-9 m long and about 1,2-1,5 m wide. Also, on the provided video, it can be approximately calculated that the diameter of the Thunder-2 OTBR building in the area the starting engine ranges from 0,85 to 1 m. We can see almost identical (by design) paired PU in the Chinese tactical complex M20 (the version for the PLA - DF-12), with the only difference that in the Chinese complex 4- host chassis. What is even more remarkable, the mass of the Thunder-2 warheads, indicated by the Ukrainian developer, fully coincides with the weight of the Chinese M20 combat equipment (kg 480). The only loophole traced here is where the ideas of the Thunder-2 design, in which the documentation on the OTBR M20 (DF-12) acted, were taken into the hands of the Independent Square, and the representatives of the special services and the Ministry of Defense of Saudi Arabia acted as the main link in this action. It is also possible that Beijing transferred the Yuzhnoye Design Office to the DF-12 production technology in exchange for the provision of any Soviet critical technology that did not fall into the hands of Chinese specialists. There can be a lot of tangles here, but one thing is clear: for the speedy adoption of the “Thunder-2”, huge efforts are being made, and this is a very bad sign!

Judging by the dimensions, the operational-tactical ballistic missile of the “Thunder-2” complex can get a range from 350 to 600 km, which makes it possible to deliver powerful blows to the Luhansk and Donetsk people's republics from the central regions of the Square. And as an effective protection, neither the Torah-M1 nor the Pantsiri-С1 will pass here, since the speed of the flight of the Thunder-2 in the final part of the trajectory will be from 7 to 9M (like in Oki), therefore for protection will require anti-missile systems such as C-300PM1, C-300B4 or Buk-M3, which will need to be transferred to the Donbass urgently. Today, the thoughtless ridicule of the next Ukrainian project should be thrown aside and it is good to think about countermeasures if this product is brought to mind with Arabian and Chinese help, because the Chinese people of Donbass and the differences between Moscow and Kiev are absolutely indifferent.

Information sources:
https://www.armyrecognition.com/china_chinese_army_missile_systems_vehicles/df-12_m20_short-range_surface-to-surface_tactical_missile_technical_data_sheet_specifications.html
https://andrei-bt.livejournal.com/666529.html
http://forum.militaryparitet.com/viewtopic.php?id=19146
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  1. svp67
    svp67 10 January 2018 07: 51
    10
    All right, for one "BUT". These OTR are not planned for adoption by the Armed Forces of Ukraine, as their production will be carried out outside the territory of Ukraine.
    1. Smog
      Smog 10 January 2018 08: 18
      +6
      Alas, Damantsev does not know this.
      1. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 10 January 2018 08: 57
        +5
        The author also “sucks” coincidences in the TTX figures, but for some reason does not consider the option that these parameters could be trite clearly indicated in the development contract. I can even assume some kind of interchangeability of missiles.
        1. Serg koma
          Serg koma 10 January 2018 19: 22
          +1
          Quote: Leader of the Redskins
          author "sucks" coincidence in TTX figures

          Visually, the base of the Grom2 tractor is longer than the "Chinese", and is apparently designed for a large load (after all, not only for specific pressure). What for?
          the mass of the Thunder-2 warhead indicated by the Ukrainian developer fully coincides with the weight of the military equipment of the Chinese M20 (480 kg).

          And why not compare with the Iskander M - the mass of the warhead: 480 kg?
          We will take a look at the 5-axis mobile cross-country launcher developed by KrAZ or their design bureau. Morozova (GP KHKBM).

          - The machine with a wheel formula 10x10 designed and built SE "Kharkov Design Bureau of Mechanical Engineering named after A. Morozov" (KHMB), presumably using KrAZ aggregates and imported ones. Self-propelled launcher is supposed to accommodate two transport-launch containers with ballistic missiles OTRK "Thunder-2" -
      2. alexmach
        alexmach 11 January 2018 00: 47
        0
        And who knows how to get together. During development, some kind of pilot production will definitely be, and if there is such a production, serial production is also possible.
    2. seti
      seti 10 January 2018 12: 12
      +2
      Quote: svp67
      All right, for one "BUT". These OTR are not planned for adoption by the Armed Forces of Ukraine, as their production will be carried out outside the territory of Ukraine.

      Well, if so. And if not?
      1. Mih1974
        Mih1974 15 January 2018 01: 43
        +1
        And who of the thieves in power in Kiev will agree so much dough to "piss off"? lol Remember the hammer and everything else. And also the words of those who constantly say - "The Nazis in Kiev do not need Victory, in the Donbas, they need a War for which they will write off all their atrocities !!!"
        Someone asks - but they didn’t "regret" the point-U spend. And everything is simple - Americans did not allow them to sell them trite tongue . And with "so do not get to anyone," they applied them.
        Well, you think it yourself - suppose (God forbid) they destroy and capture Donbass and SHO? Then comes the “oil painting”: there is Victory, there is “occupied Crimea”, there are Nazis for whom the “liberation” of Crimea will become a slogan !! belay And then what to do “publicly” as a thief in Kiev, to go a real war to the Crimea - but for this you can not only sukashvili “choke on a tie”, but you can also get a cruise missile into your own mansion belay crying . And if there is a Thief, he’ll be there at the moment, he’s “choking on a croissant” (bacon with a vodka) and it is possible to “choke” to death. So really fight for the Crimea-not an option. But then what to do with the crazy Nazis, what to do with all this scum that is now fascist in the Donbass (and this I recall about 200 thousand Cove?
        Therefore, even there is a “thunder-2" will become a reality in the metal and will fly where necessary, it will not change anything in the war in the Donbass.
        I want to recall the use of such terrible weapons as the Nuclear - they burned two cities of Jeroshima and Nagasaki, BUT - the victims were LESS than from the raid on Tokyo with conventional (and incendiary) bombs negative . Well, instead of point-U they’ll launch their “thunder-2” and sho, but a lot more people will die from conventional artillery.
        LDNR should not be prepared for a "new weapon", but for that - to defeat (physically destroy) the Ukrofashists and move their troops away from their cities !! good . And the S-300 will put them Abkhazians or South Ossetians repeat
        1. Evgeniy667b
          Evgeniy667b 15 January 2018 09: 07
          0
          One thing is true and true, joking over Ukraine is more expensive for yourself! They still have a good production base and staff, and what is especially important is the passionarity of a large part of the population, no matter how our media try to hide it. It is also unacceptable to make gifts in the form of ships, planes and other military equipment remaining in Crimea
    3. Serg koma
      Serg koma 10 January 2018 18: 43
      +1
      Quote: svp67
      . These OTR are not planned for adoption by the Armed Forces of Ukraine,

      From an interview with the Director of Defense Express Information and Consulting Company SERGEY ZGURETS.
      - That is, it’s premature to say today that this is a weapon for Ukraine?

      - Nobody talks about this. This is a complex that is produced on the basis of a contract for one of the Middle Eastern countries. But this significantly reduces the financial and technological risks associated with the development of these weapons, which, in fact, are necessary for Ukraine.. And the military is really betting on this weapons system after completing all work related to another country.

      Who knows, how to know .... These are probably not possible, but modified, or for example, "rejected" by the customer?
      1. Serg koma
        Serg koma 10 January 2018 18: 49
        0
        Bottom photo "Chinese" DF-12?
      2. svp67
        svp67 11 January 2018 03: 55
        +1
        Quote: Serg Koma
        Who knows, how to know .... These are probably not possible, but modified, or for example, "rejected" by the customer?

        Ukraine does not have many industries to establish a series of such machines and missiles, which means it will have to purchase. What this leads to can be seen in the production of ATGMs of "Ukrainian production", where you also have to buy a lot and what, did Ukraine produce a lot of such missiles? And OTR is not an ATGM. Something is possible and will receive, but it will be calculated in units.
  2. Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya 10 January 2018 08: 12
    +7
    Pots even battalion mortars really can not do. What can I say about rockets! 404 has long slipped to the level of African Bantustan.
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 10 January 2018 08: 55
      14
      Here for people like you, the article is written. That would throw out of my head thoughts about underestimating the enemy. How many "hammers" exploded during the shooting can you name? And how many Soviet mortars during trials and military operations?
      1. Mik13
        Mik13 10 January 2018 09: 58
        15
        Quote: Leader of the Redskins
        How many "hammers" exploded during the shooting can you name? And how many Soviet mortars during trials and military operations?

        In fact, the problem with the explosions is not the problem of mortars, but the problem of ammunition. The propellant charge of a mortar mine is too weak to break the barrel. This is a fuse issue that triggers a blast during a shot. There can’t stand any mortar.
        1. The leader of the Redskins
          The leader of the Redskins 10 January 2018 10: 05
          10
          I know. Therefore, I wrote. There is still a problem with the calculation - there are still cases of throwing mines "upside down" or, despite the "flag", an attempt to charge two mines ...
          1. Stronin
            Stronin 11 January 2018 16: 25
            0
            documentary evidence of the above)))))

            https://youtu.be/7qhTdRGJICI
            1. Mih1974
              Mih1974 15 January 2018 01: 45
              +1
              Tse staged crap. negative proven long ago.
      2. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 10 January 2018 11: 29
        0
        The Ukrainian army is an incapable rabble. APU even several thousand militias can not win. If it were not for the terrbattalions of the stubborn Natsik volunteers, then in 2014 the militia would have completely cleared the Bendery evil from the Lugansk and Donetsk regions.
        1. The leader of the Redskins
          The leader of the Redskins 10 January 2018 12: 31
          16
          Gracious sovereign. Turn off RTV at home and forget Kiseleva and Soloviev. Try to chat with those who have been in the trenches for at least a month. I personally do not propose going there for pacifical reasons. I think after an hour of conversation with a database participant a lot of your fantasies will be dispelled ....
          1. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 10 January 2018 12: 39
            +2
            For your information, I have Internet at home, not just television. In 2014, several thousand untrained, poorly armed militias managed to stop the AFU offensive. The Ukrainian army could not even defeat former civilians! Is this not an indication of the combat effectiveness of the APU?
            1. The leader of the Redskins
              The leader of the Redskins 10 January 2018 12: 43
              11
              Could not or did not want to destroy their citizens? Can you name the first cauldron in this war? I'll tell you - Slavic. From where Girkin (but for some reason he is not Ukrainian) valiantly played heels. Now use the Internet and compare Slavyansk, Kramatorsk and Mariupol immediately after the hostilities and, for example, Grozny.
              1. Kot_Kuzya
                Kot_Kuzya 10 January 2018 12: 56
                +5

                Do you recognize the character? By the way, you are not aware that Tymoshenko expressed a desire to use nuclear weapons in the Donbass? So do not tell tales about the "kind" lads from the Nazi battalions, who actually were recruited into them only to loot, rape and kill. Give them the opportunity, these galloping Nazis would kill all the Russians and incinerate Russia. Yes, that's just they have no opportunity.
                1. The leader of the Redskins
                  The leader of the Redskins 10 January 2018 13: 02
                  +4
                  And at the front, Tymoshenko and Poroshenko? In general, you are a clear character. About where children studied in Grozny I will not ask. You can no longer write - I will not answer. You are more stubborn than the exhibits you brought.
                  1. Kot_Kuzya
                    Kot_Kuzya 10 January 2018 13: 17
                    +6
                    Residents of Donbass carry out terrorist attacks in Kiev and Odessa? Do residents of Donbass steal Ukrainian citizens and turn them into slaves? Residents of Donbass hostage Ukrainian hospitals and schools? See how you would not get a ban for whitewashing the ukronazists and Chechen terrorists.
                    And actually, Poroshenko is the commander in chief of the Armed Forces. And Tymoshenko is a deputy of the Verkhovna Rada and the leader of the party bloc. That is, these two characters are far from the last people in Ukraine. They directly affect the events in Ukraine. And you are trying to imagine them as some small, meaningless and not decisive bipod.
              2. The comment was deleted.
              3. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 10 January 2018 14: 08
                +2
                Quote: Leader of the Redskins
                Could not or did not want to destroy their citizens?

                Now on Mount Karachun there is a huge number of 122-caliber gun shells. According to the military, 16 thousand were shot there. They are offered to mark them with the words “To Slavyansk” and give them out to everyone who will donate money for the renewal and construction of the city.

                And this is not Kiselev, but the Ukrainian media.
            2. CommanderDIVA
              CommanderDIVA 10 January 2018 13: 12
              +6
              Yes, not the militia in 2014 ukrovermaht stopped and the north wind
            3. alexmach
              alexmach 11 January 2018 00: 52
              +3
              In 2014, several thousand untrained, poorly armed militias managed to stop the AFU offensive.

              All true, with two small amendments.
              1.It is already 2018, if you are not in the know, this is as if a fact not disputed
              2. If it weren’t for the help of “militias of the second war”, “call the north wind” whatever you like, Donetsk would be taken by the Armed Forces of Ukraine by the end of summer - the beginning of autumn 2014. This is my personal IMHO.
            4. tun5t
              tun5t 14 January 2018 07: 44
              0
              Militia - 30%, "north wind" - 30%, faith in a just cause - 40%. That's what Europites stopped. Here and do not go to Baba Vanga with the Vedunas yes
        2. Curious
          Curious 10 January 2018 14: 50
          +6
          I always liked the snotty couch armies defeating any opponents. Their only drawback is they write and revel in the loud sound in the room next to the sofa. But with modern diapers, this is not fatal.
        3. Grach-25sm
          Grach-25sm 10 January 2018 19: 57
          +5
          Several thousands of the militia voted out the poorly trained Ukrainian army in 2014. And now, already 2018, both we and they have learned to fight. I live in Donetsk, if anything, I haven’t gone anywhere since 2014.
        4. 73petia
          73petia 10 January 2018 22: 59
          +2
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          The Ukrainian army is an incapable rabble.

          Perhaps this was until 2014. And then the APU should have fought. And three years somehow restored their fighting efficiency. It may be crooked, askew, but the situation still changed for the better (for the Armed Forces of Ukraine). So "not everything is so simple."
          1. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 11 January 2018 02: 55
            0
            It has changed. Only for the worse. Material support has become generally deplorable: aviation is no longer there, what could still fly, militias shot down in the summer of 2014, if you want, you can even read the losses of the Ukrainian Armed Forces aviation on Wiki. There were almost no tanks and other armored vehicles, there was also no artillery, there were not enough small arms either, the racers had to rake out warehouses from the DP, DShK and other junk from the Second World War. Well, with ammunition, the condition is generally sad, the only ammunition factory in Ukraine was located in Lugansk, and now it is controlled by the LPR authorities. There are almost no stocks of ammunition, it is not without reason that Poroshenko and other leaders want to switch to NATO standard ammunition, since in this case they hope to receive supplies from the EU and the USA.
        5. January
          January 11 January 2018 13: 56
          +1
          Based on what did you make such a conclusion? Did you personally find out? Have you seen enough television? Technical losses and command errors do not scam the army. (Remember WWII) Self-confidence is usually the result of stupidity.
        6. tun5t
          tun5t 14 January 2018 07: 33
          0
          I travel around Russia a lot and live here and unfortunately from ordinary people (security guards, movers, storekeepers, IPshnikov) I heard more than 15 times that their relatives serve in the Russian army and are sent to the Donbass, most often tankers and gunners to Gorlovka. It’s not only the local militias who are fighting there. Although the guys are doing a righteous thing.
      3. Dedall
        Dedall 10 January 2018 22: 43
        +1
        In the regiment where I served, there was a division of 120 mm mortars. For almost 10 years of use, only one mortar exploded, but it was 44 years old. So do not drive on our own!
      4. The comment was deleted.
  3. inkass_98
    inkass_98 10 January 2018 08: 51
    +3
    According to available information, this complex was developed for foreign money and in the interests of a foreign customer. The ukrovozhennye themselves confirmed that for the needs of the Ruinsky Armed Forces such complexes can begin to develop no earlier than in a couple of years. Bo pennies dumb.
    1. Smog
      Smog 10 January 2018 09: 02
      +3
      Quote: inkass_98
      may start developing not earlier than in a couple of years. Bo dumb dumb.

      You still think that in a couple of years they will have pennies ...... ????????? recourse
      1. inkass_98
        inkass_98 10 January 2018 11: 54
        +1
        This is not me, they think so ...
  4. Moore
    Moore 10 January 2018 09: 06
    +5
    Let's start with simple problems:
    comments left by both opponents and supporters of the criminal Kiev regime. First traditionally (in a standard marasmic form) they flaunted the speedy adoption of the Thunder into the armament of the Ukrainian forces with the possibility of "shelling of Central Russia from positions in the Sumy region." Recent ones .., they began to make fun of the project, emphasizing the lack of experience, capabilities and financial resources of the cooperative junta of enterprises of CB Yuzhnoye and NPO Pavlogradsky Chemical Plant.

    Opponents are not mixed up with supporters?
    An option is also possible where Beijing transferred the Southern Design Bureau to the production technology of DF-12

    Nothing impossible exists at all, the question is different: who at 404, even for the Saudi money, is able to put the product on the conveyor? NPO Pavlogradsky Chemical Plant a couple of years after receiving TD? Very unlikely.
    In other words, despite
    tremendous efforts are being made for the speedy adoption of Thunder-2
    ,
    I recall the toast "I have a desire, but I have no opportunity."
    If the impossible happens, I believe that the anti-Thunder weapons will be not air defense systems, but "unidentified persons who committed the arson (undermining or other muck)."
  5. tezey
    tezey 10 January 2018 09: 11
    0
    I don’t think that the opinion of some commentators and “experts” is erroneous, that with 64 years of experience in designing various types of medium-range ballistic missiles, ICBMs and launch vehicles, the former OKB-586 (now the Yuzhnoye Design Bureau) will stretch the “Thunder- 2 ”for a decade. Those people who were engaged in the construction of Soviet missiles are already retired. How old are those who actively worked in the late 80s. At 70 -65 minimum who was then young. In addition to washing personnel, there is such a thing as accumulating experience in designing and manufacturing complex systems with new personnel. If there is no experience, scientific and industrial groundwork, it is very doubtful to speak of rapid success in creating an advanced modern OTR. The help of the Saudis is 40 million, well, this is not impressive. Except that enough money to support the pants. Of course, if they strain and set a goal, over time, at least five years, if they really try, they will receive the finished product, but we will see what they get.
    1. thinker
      thinker 10 January 2018 09: 34
      +1
      Two days ago, the article was
      According to the representative of Defense Express, the complex is now at a very early stage, one of the engine stages is being tested. More or less extensive trials can begin only after two years.

      https://topwar.ru/133337-ukrainskiy-kompleks-grom
      -2-ne-budet-postavlyatsya-v-vsu.html
    2. Monarchist
      Monarchist 10 January 2018 10: 52
      +2
      Theseus, I would not be in your place to focus on the fact that: "How many years have those who worked actively in the late 80s." After all, at that time there were many interns, and there is still technical documentation and, if desired, and appropriate funding, much can be
      1. 73petia
        73petia 11 January 2018 00: 07
        +2
        Quote: Monarchist
        I wouldn’t be stuck in your place on the fact that: “How many years have those who worked actively in the late 80s.” After all, at that time there were many interns, and there is still technical documentation and, if desired, and appropriate funding, much can be


        In the late eighties, the USSR announced a "conversion", and almost the entire defense industry and allies "stood up." Salaries are not paid. The people first went on unpaid leave, and then everyone quit. The plants were empty. In winter, the snow was not removed, the buildings drifted along the roof. Those who remained for the winter were driven into one building, it was drowned. The rest were disconnected from the heating to save. so not one year. Where the "trainees" practiced. There was no real work. These "trainees" were the first to quit.
        And all the documentation is out of date. Soviet GOSTs canceled. There are no components, construction materials (necessary according to the old documentation) (nobody has been producing them for a long time). Nobody orders or buys products. While the fight did not begin, no one "itched." Now they are forced to solve all these problems. Well, they decide one way or another. But not as fast, and not as high quality as we would like. And money is of course an important "component", but not the main one. Take such a "half-dead" production, pour money on the roof. And nothing will happen. Only numerous “masters” of this money will appear. And over time, everyone will master them. People are needed, specialists. And they must be prepared in advance, and kept in good shape.
    3. Mih1974
      Mih1974 15 January 2018 02: 09
      +1
      I support - it’s just “just a scumbag” of what “young specialists” are. And the point is not only the ability to draw up a drawing or write a note, often the key problem is the inability to think as a designer, I don’t even know how to describe it. Many people think that - such an uncle (aunt) sits and draws something on the kulman (by the way, for this word, the designers will most of all knock on the head repeat ) as they say "from nail to nail." And here is the CRANKS tongue it’s dozens, hundreds, thousands of people and each develops his LITTLE piece, then they try to “stick a square into a round” all this “disgrace”. belay request .
      And now imagine that during the lack of orders - smart specialists did not stay idle and banally went to other areas of design (yes it’s possible), but it usually remains - mediocrity which no one wants to hire or the “middle peasant” who didn’t have enough to change jobs . And here come the Saudis with the dough and the Kiev authorities - "GET IT !!" And what to “give”, if often the remaining just themselves can not or do not know how to do the required. Actually, that’s why the explosion on the test and the exploding “hammers” do not surprise me, it’s enough to be a dunno in such “trifles” as formulas, standards, etc. and - they thought something wrong, forgot something somewhere, and the materials that were fundamentally incapable of doing required task (load). fool Yes, look what’s going on in the Russian cosmonauts - it seemed like it was loot and missiles were launched (experience and inheritance of skills), but now something like disorder and mess has reached unthinkable sizes. Therefore, it is expected that now, in Ukraine, not based on Soviet developments, Ukraine will be able to do something working No. . No, if they had mountains of dough to exclude all the wrong options by the method of scientific poking, there would be a chance to create something working, but the Sauduks obviously would not pay for these "dances with tambourines"
      According to the “Chinese documentation”, let’s say so - people who have a “hand” relationship with the Chinese auto industry can no longer pick up swear words in Great Russian Swearing belay . And even more so, try to sort some Chinese drawings "cross with Soviet ones" belay , I have not met such monsters (geniuses).
  6. Monarchist
    Monarchist 10 January 2018 09: 38
    +3
    Quote: inkass_98
    According to available information, this complex was developed for foreign money and in the interests of a foreign customer. The ukrovozhennye themselves confirmed that for the needs of the Ruinsky Armed Forces such complexes can begin to develop no earlier than in a couple of years. Bo pennies dumb.

    Damantsev does not care: he wrote a horror story, and then he hit the drum.
  7. KCA
    KCA 10 January 2018 09: 49
    +1
    The flight range of 350-600 km is clearly not going to appeal to the owners and Jews, up to 280 km, according to the non-proliferation of missile technology agreement, they may suffer, but 600 is too much, especially considering that the complexes can be wherever there is a buyer, and there are many buyers around Israel there is
  8. sd68
    sd68 10 January 2018 09: 53
    +3
    abandoned by both opponents and supporters of the criminal Kiev regime. The former traditionally (in a standard marasmic form) flaunted the speedy adoption of the Thunder into service

    the article was placed in the weapons section by mistake, it seems.
    more suitable for the "propaganda" section.
    The section "weapons" such an article, in my opinion, only dishonors and humiliates. sad
    1. Antares
      Antares 10 January 2018 11: 11
      +2
      stamp set article
      supporters of the criminal Kiev regime.

      junta-controlled cooperation

      and information from open sources can in no way claim to be an objective analysis.
      Just on the “Chinese trail” with undisguised propaganda of the beginning of 2014 ..
  9. Captain Nemo
    Captain Nemo 10 January 2018 09: 53
    +5
    That article about the Raptor, then about the Thunder. What a multifaceted talent the author has! What are you special, Monsieur Damantsev?
    1. ydjin
      ydjin 10 January 2018 12: 27
      +3
      Quote: Captain Nemo
      That article about the Raptor, then about the Thunder. What a multifaceted talent the author has! What are you special, Monsieur Damantsev?

      Our shoot has ripened everywhere! laughing
  10. Santor
    Santor 10 January 2018 11: 28
    +2
    Fortunately, a certain number of Tor-M1 air defense systems and other anti-aircraft defense systems capable of intercepting the "Points" moving at speeds from 600 to 800 m / s nevertheless appeared in NM LDN cases.

    Damantsev, exactly? Some appalchants told? What else has appeared? The points that went to Lugansk were strayed by a completely different tool .... And what they showed on all the media is a divorce in order to cover the real vector of opposition. It’s approximately the same as in the case of EM “Donald Cook” - where the flight of the aircraft was just a cover for the operation of another system, which burnt all the electronics on the ship. Later, the need for camouflage disappeared when, in the 2017 year, the Russian Ministry of Defense conducted a teaching about which they spoke in passing. But which terribly bothered all our fucking partners.

    A certain unit of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation conducted an exercise on delivering an electronic strike in a certain area where all technical and electronic systems were disabled (full discharge of batteries from those that are on the equipment and ending with batteries in watches, optical and other sights, etc. , network breaks and other pleasures that left the group of troops there only with small arms in their hands without the means of communication and control ... But this is not the most important thing .... And the fact that the area was hit from 4 000 kil meters.

    And yet - there is so far no development of KRAZ.
    And now let's look at the 5-axis mobile cross-country launcher developed by KrAZ or their design bureau. Morozova (GP KHKBM). At its base we see

    There is only a plywood layout. Damantsev, a puncture ...
    1. sd68
      sd68 10 January 2018 12: 20
      +3
      I wonder how long will this frank accordion about Cook roam the RuNet?
      became actually a test for at least minimal sanity.
      dear, enjoy the original source of your post
      https://www.fondsk.ru/news/2014/04/17/etot-proklj
      atyj-russkij-metallolom-27063.html
    2. tun5t
      tun5t 14 January 2018 08: 18
      0
      Is this why Americans rushed to search for satellites that without them this “microwave” would boil hard-boiled eggs for the operators and seriously talk about the help of Russian aliens? Yes, in vain the Europeans from Tesla made an idiot, he also talked about help from outside in his works. You look and they would dock first laughing
  11. shinobi
    shinobi 10 January 2018 11: 49
    +2
    Any weapon in the hands of Bandera is dangerous. Old or new is completely unimportant. In Russia, for all their aggressive rhetoric, they are afraid to strike and will not. will be the last. A retaliatory strike will follow by the forces of the air forces and heavy barrel artillery, large-caliber MLRS. There will be little left from the APU. These are not individual barmaleis in jihadmobiles in the desert to drive. The places where the AFU forces are concentrated and deployed are well known. And if 10 years ago they could have spoiled our nerves well with their air defense, now this will not happen. They sold everything. In Kiev, they understand this better than anyone.
    1. tun5t
      tun5t 14 January 2018 08: 23
      0
      The Vedas talk about our civilization in its current form - that’s why no one is visiting us and they keep a barrier from us yes
      1. Mih1974
        Mih1974 15 January 2018 02: 16
        +1
        Yes, the Russians lured to bury these "guests." One thing pleases only the Germans from the first time the "lesson" was not enough, but it seems that from the third time they "understood everything".
  12. Rem411
    Rem411 10 January 2018 11: 51
    +2
    It is interesting who will make the engine for this rocket, for Point, Oka and Iskander this is Votkinsk, no one else in the country seems to be doing this, Yuzhmash always did the rocket engine. Those. it must be done anew, in the conditions of Ukraine it is very difficult. Iskander was made for about 10 years, with experience and succession of personnel, production (there were problems of course) and a test base. I strongly doubt that in the absence of all this, plus economic collapse and total theft, they will be able to implement such a project in two to three years.
    1. Valmih70
      Valmih70 10 January 2018 12: 12
      +3
      The Pavlograd Chemical Plant, as far as I know, is engaged in the development and production of powder engines. These are different versions of solid propellant engines, for example, for rockets and various missiles.
      1. Mih1974
        Mih1974 15 January 2018 02: 18
        +1
        Excuse me - PCP is doing the “chemistry of gunpowder” or even developing such large engines. All the same, it’s not New Year’s blades here, it’s the engine building that should be apart from the “chemistry”.
  13. Rem411
    Rem411 10 January 2018 11: 55
    0
    And besides, somewhere else it is necessary to test it, including the maximum range, and at the same time remove all telemetry. Outside Ukraine, this is definitely not real, and here, like with the Belarusian Polonaises, it smells strongly of the Chinese.
    1. tun5t
      tun5t 14 January 2018 08: 27
      0
      The Chinese are slowly and steadily replacing Americans in everything, just like Wang said lol
  14. Valmih70
    Valmih70 10 January 2018 12: 08
    +1
    In my opinion, everything can be much sadder and the missile under development will have a launch range of about 1000 km. In this case, it fits perfectly into the Anglo-Saxon concept of enslavement of Russia. Instead of “Pershing” - “Thunder”, designed to destroy targets on the territory of the Russian Federation, including in the Moscow region. The process of turning Ukraine into a hostile state is taking leaps and bounds and the integration of its Armed Forces into NATO structures is also taking place. Everyone makes conclusions. Our rich, for example, learn English, embed their children in the Western world and actively buy citizenship in Cyprus, Malta, and Austria.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 13 January 2018 20: 56
      0
      Something seems to me - but to see the development of the Chinese the same, had a hand.
  15. vvp2412
    vvp2412 10 January 2018 12: 20
    0
    It's one thing to bring to mind for the Saudis, another thing is to buy for yourself. Where did the money come from, Zin?
    And if you buy, then you need to train masturbates ...
    But experience shows that the money of foreign customers is stolen no worse than their own.
    The Chinese gave a loan, dumb money, Thailand paid for tanks, the result is known,
    Either the Hindus, or Vietnam sent the planes to repair, the planes were lost .... Continue the list?
  16. lieutenant colonel
    lieutenant colonel 10 January 2018 12: 26
    +3
    Dnepropetrovsk Yuzhmash ... Pavlograd NGO ... These plants were the main ones in the production of BZHRK missile systems (according to the American classification "Scalpel"). Yuzhmash made rockets (very, by the way, insensitive), and the complex was going to in Pavlograd. Therefore, the author may be right. Even a tenth of the engineering staff of the 80s is enough to create something very funny.
  17. sd68
    sd68 10 January 2018 12: 49
    +1
    In my opinion, Ukraine will need a new OTR with a range of more than 300 km only if the States with NATO decide for sure that there should be less by one Russian Federation on the planet.
    Otherwise, it simply does not make sense, the height of the absurdity for Ukraine to shoot at the territory of Russia.
    As for the Donbass, the problem will be solved one way or another before such missiles become operational
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 13 January 2018 21: 01
      0
      "Top absurdity for Ukraine to shoot at the territory of Russia." In 2014, they well fired at our border territory, without any fear - on our part, three killed. And by the way, if they can shoot and they can shy at the nuclear power plant - at once with several missiles.
  18. vlad007
    vlad007 10 January 2018 13: 05
    +1
    If we stop the transit of gas supplies to Europe through Ukraine, and this is absolutely realistic, if Nord Stream-2 works, then Ukraine will not be able to do without our missiles.
    1. Uxus
      Uxus 11 January 2018 15: 59
      +1
      Do not stop))
      Will not work)))
  19. Roman Lenivov
    Roman Lenivov 10 January 2018 15: 37
    +1
    Even if Ukrainians do this, then it is negligible. They cannot launch a stronghold from the 90s into production, and given the fact that it will be intercepted by our air defense and we can fire at Kiev and Lviv right now from Kamchatka, there is nothing to worry about.
  20. Mercenary
    Mercenary 10 January 2018 16: 11
    +1
    Deploy “Poplars” and if they even think of a crushing PREVENTIVE blow. Enough with the fascists to clatter. And after Donetsk they’ll shoot at Russian cities.
  21. M. Michelson
    M. Michelson 10 January 2018 16: 16
    0
    I don’t know where the legs grow from, but you shouldn’t laugh ahead of time anyway.
  22. Gartny
    Gartny 10 January 2018 16: 53
    0
    And thunder will strike! We should take it into service with the Belarusian army on the basis of the MZKT.
    1. prosto_rgb
      prosto_rgb 12 January 2018 17: 43
      0
      Quote: Gartna
      And thunder will strike! We should take it into service with the Belarusian army on the basis of the MZKT.

      Not even a gift.
      We already have a Polonaise, and it’s been adopted, and has been put in the army and used in the West exercises.
      Localization of production of 95%, started with 65%.
      Now they are finishing a rocket of this class.
      And those that I’m working out now are:
  23. Mikhail Zubkov
    Mikhail Zubkov 10 January 2018 17: 21
    0
    Quote: Valmih70
    In my opinion, everything can be much sadder and the missile under development will have a launch range of about 1000 km. In this case, it fits perfectly into the Anglo-Saxon concept of enslavement of Russia. Instead of “Pershing” - “Thunder”, designed to destroy targets on the territory of the Russian Federation, including in the Moscow region. The process of turning Ukraine into a hostile state is taking leaps and bounds and the integration of its Armed Forces into NATO structures is also taking place. Everyone makes conclusions. Our rich, for example, learn English, embed their children in the Western world and actively buy citizenship in Cyprus, Malta, and Austria.

    The Ukronatsiks, unfortunately, even in the conditions of “controlled chaos” or ukromarazm, retained the old Soviet schools of rocket builders, tank builders, aircraft builders, engine builders, etc. - almost halved, of course, but with hostile management and financing, they are really dangerous for the Russian Federation. From Kharkov to Belgorod - less than 100 km, to Moscow 850 km. - and this is just the beginning to puzzle the Kremlin? What was he hoping for - that the dodgers-developers themselves and voluntarily, with their money, fears and risks, would run to Russia? Do they, the Kremlin’s dreamers, have the wrong brains and money? Or in different directions? Before their eyes, foreign wise men rake in a large piece of Soviet heritage - and the Kremlin’s ears applaud this! The author also hints about this - an urgent need for a new policy and decisive action, and not Surkov’s muti in clear threats to us from the side of the walkers.
  24. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 10 January 2018 18: 21
    0
    Quote: Rem411
    It is interesting who will make the engine for this rocket, for Point, Oka and Iskander this is Votkinsk, no one else in the country seems to be doing this, Yuzhmash always did the rocket engine. Those. it must be done anew, in the conditions of Ukraine it is very difficult. Iskander was made for about 10 years, with experience and succession of personnel, production (there were problems of course) and a test base. I strongly doubt that in the absence of all this, plus economic collapse and total theft, they will be able to implement such a project in two to three years.

    RT-23 UTTH “Molodets” (GRAU index - 15P961 and 15P060, START code - RS-22B and RS-22V, according to the classification of the United States and NATO - SS-24 Mod 3 and Mod 2 Scalpel, English Scalpel (PL-4 - during the testing period)) - strategic missile systems with solid fuel three-stage intercontinental ballistic missiles 15ZH61 and 15ZH60, mobile railway and stationary mine-based, respectively. It was a further development of the missile complex RT-23.

    The lead developer is the Yuzhne Design Bureau. Adopted in 1987.
    The RT-23 UTTX missiles were designed for a 15-year operational life and, as it expired, the missiles were decommissioned in 2002-2004. In 2012, the development of the new Barguzin railway complex, which has a lower load on the railway track, began and not requiring its amplification along the routing routes.
    1. myobius59
      myobius59 10 January 2018 18: 59
      +1
      Before NG was infa that “Barguzin” froze. Ostensibly denyuhek dumb. Truth., request or again a tricky trick. request
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 13 January 2018 21: 03
        0
        Yes, they didn’t freeze it, but canceled it, due to lack of prospects.
  25. Old26
    Old26 10 January 2018 20: 54
    +1
    Quote: myobius59
    Other

    True. Maybe they froze, or maybe even covered. It is not clear yet.

    Quote: KCA
    A flight range of 350-600 km is clearly not going to appeal to owners and Jews, up to 280 km, according to the non-proliferation of missile technology agreement, they may suffer, but 600 is overkill, especially considering that there may be complexes wherever there is a buyer, and there are many buyers around Israel there is


    This missile technology control treaty is valid only in the event that one of the countries has signed it. If both countries have not signed, then they do not care about this agreement

  26. Anchonsha
    Anchonsha 10 January 2018 23: 11
    0
    It’s a bad thing that this can happen. Probably it is necessary to transfer more serious missile systems to the Donbass to protect cities.
  27. alexmach
    alexmach 11 January 2018 01: 01
    +1
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    By the way, you are not aware that Tymoshenko expressed a desire to use nuclear weapons in the Donbass?

    This is not entirely true, in fact, she meant Russia and not Donbas, as I understand it. And this conversation took place before the Donbass events.
  28. LeonidL
    LeonidL 11 January 2018 02: 47
    0
    A serious and well-reasoned article.
  29. Guest
    Guest 11 January 2018 09: 30
    0
    As the sun rises, the dew of the eye eats. All this is banal blah blah.
  30. Valery Saitov
    Valery Saitov 11 January 2018 09: 55
    0
    .... for protection such anti-aircraft missile systems as S-300PM1, S-300B4 or Buk-M3 will be required, which will need to be urgently transferred to Donbass.)))
    The year has begun, and you can start throwing ... closer to the border of Russia, and then ... how the suit goes.
  31. Uxus
    Uxus 11 January 2018 13: 59
    0
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    Here for people like you, the article is written. That would throw out of my head thoughts about underestimating the enemy. How many "hammers" exploded during the shooting can you name? And how many Soviet mortars during trials and military operations?

    What do you understand! 404 and the point. Bantustan! You cling forever with your facts, figures and all sorts of technical characteristics ... You start Russophobia, this is it, this is it
  32. Uxus
    Uxus 11 January 2018 14: 05
    0
    [quote = Kot_Kuzya] Donbass residents steal Ukrainian citizens and turn them into slaves? [/ quote]
    Proof on abducted citizens.
    [quote = Kot_Kuzya] Residents of Donbass hostage Ukrainian hospitals and schools? [/ quote]
    Proof of capturing a hospital or school in Ukraine.
    And Tymoshenko is a deputy of the Verkhovna Rada and the leader of the party bloc. That is, these two characters are far from the last people in Ukraine. They directly affect the events in Ukraine. [/ quote]
    Tymoshenko no longer affects anything))) On the Internet, which you have, this also exists))
  33. Uxus
    Uxus 11 January 2018 15: 50
    0
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Now on Mount Karachun there is a huge number of 122-caliber gun shells. According to the military, 16 thousand were shot there.

    “On April 17, 2014, the DPR forces captured the TV tower, after which they ordered the Ukrainian channels to be disconnected, and in their place to begin broadcasting the Russian ones.

    On May 2, 2014, control over the mountain several times passed from one side to the other. On May 3, 2014, the Ukrainian army established control over the height and the television tower. Subsequently, the rebels repeatedly attempted to storm the mountain and regularly bombarded it, including with the use of mortars. On May 9, 2014, an attempt was made to attack the DNR militias on the positions of the Ukrainian military in Karachun. The attack was unsuccessful, the use of combat helicopters played a key role in repelling the attack. As of May 9, 2014, a position on the mountain was held by a company of airborne paratroopers of Ukraine.

    On May 13, 2014, during the clash, seven paratroopers of the 95th airmobile brigade of Ukraine were killed, one armored personnel carrier and one GAZ-66 with a mortar installation burned down. The rebels also suffered losses. On May 19, 2014, during a mortar shelling, a soldier of the 95th airmobile brigade, Gennady Belyak, was killed. On May 29, the Mi-8MT helicopter of the National Guard of Ukraine was shot down by the rebels, which, after unloading food and rotating personnel, returned from the Karachun mountain region. 12 people were killed - six soldiers of the National Guard of Ukraine, including two people from the helicopter crew, and six representatives of the special forces of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine, among them Major General Sergey Kulchitsky. On June 24, 2014, shortly after taking off from Mount Karachun from MANPADS, the rebels shot down a Ukrainian Mi-8 military helicopter, killing nine people. On the night of July 1, 2014, as a result of shelling of Ukrainian positions on Mount Karachun, the mines killed the cables that held the TV tower, and this tower collapsed. After that, the fighting over the mountain stopped. "

    Something I do not see the mention of at least one device that can shoot 122mm.
    And yes, 16 sleeves are 000 cubic meters of metal. Or a grid of funnels with a side of 168x50 meters over the entire area of ​​Slavyansk. Or 50 square meters of solid pits. Mathematics is an entertaining thing ...)
    And here you are for general development: http://www.litsa.com.ua/show/a/21390
    There really is only 15 funnels, well, maybe you will be satisfied ...
  34. Uxus
    Uxus 11 January 2018 15: 54
    0
    [
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    It has changed. Only for the worse. Material support has become generally deplorable: aviation is no longer there, what could still fly, militias shot down in the summer of 2014, if you want, you can even read the losses of the Ukrainian Armed Forces aviation on Wiki. There were almost no tanks and other armored vehicles, there was also no artillery, there were not enough small arms either, the racers had to rake out warehouses from the DP, DShK and other junk from the Second World War. Well, with ammunition, the condition is generally sad, the only ammunition factory in Ukraine was located in Lugansk, and now it is controlled by the LPR authorities. There are almost no stocks of ammunition, it is not without reason that Poroshenko and other leaders want to switch to NATO standard ammunition, since in this case they hope to receive supplies from the EU and the USA.

    Cat - you are the best! ))) Where to write to the admin so that you are assigned an extraordinary?
  35. BAI
    BAI 11 January 2018 18: 42
    0
    with 64 years of experience in designing various types of medium-range ballistic missiles, ICBMs and launch vehicles, the former OKB-586 (now Yuzhnoye Design Bureau) will extend the design of the Thunder-2 for a whole decade; do not forget that the project is supervised by Riyadh.

    I agree that we must rely on the worst option, then all the deviations are in the direction of absolute happiness. But I personally know cases when, after the 90s, defense enterprises received government orders and could not fulfill it - there were no corny people with the necessary qualifications (quit) and, sometimes, the loss of equipment was superimposed on this.
    In principle, it’s not a secret for anyone that in Russia the path from the project to its adoption is not only long, but criminally long. And it's not about the money, but in the frames. I do not think that the situation in Ukraine is better.
  36. Sergey Freeman
    Sergey Freeman 14 January 2018 22: 23
    0
    Underestimating the capabilities of the Ukrainian military industry is the stupidity of people who have little idea of ​​what Ukraine was in the military-industrial complex of the USSR. I really hope that people in the General Staff of Russia and other competent units of our country understand this very well. There are 2 options for solving the problem: either a political settlement of relations with Ukraine, with an unambiguous change in the course of a neighbor, or calibrated attacks by the Russian air forces deep into the Ukrainian defense, in order to destroy its military potential, in the event of any military conflict with this country. There is indeed a third option: Ukrainians should see a constantly charged Russian barrel in front of them, ready to smash their country into the trash.