Military Review

Russian Navy. Sad look into the future. Part of 4. "Halibut" and "Lada"

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In this article, we will try to analyze the state and development prospects of our non-nuclear underwater fleet.


Before proceeding with the analysis, let us try to answer the question: why do diesel submarines (diesel-electric submarines) need in the age of atomic energy? Do they have their own tactical niche, or diesel-electric submarines - is it "weapon for the poor ”, ersatz boats for those who do not have the ability to create atomarins?

In order to understand all this, we recall two very interesting episodes of the “life” of DEPL. The first of these is the Falkland Conflict of 1982. As you know, on the part of Argentina, one and only San Luis submarine took part in naval battles. Strictly speaking, the Argentines also used the Santa Fe, but the boat was in such a terrible technical condition that it could barely go under the periscope, so that its quick death was obviously predetermined and in no way connected with the type of its power plant. “San Luis”, built according to the German project “Type 209”, is a completely different matter. In 1982, it was one of the best (if not the best) DEPLs in the world, but it faced a very difficult task. The boat was to fight almost alone against a whole squadron of British ships. Of course, the Argentinean tried to do something aviationbut for a number of reasons she couldn’t coordinate her actions with the San Luis, and the commandos did not send surface ships to the battle. Opponent of “San Luis” many times exceeded the Argentine diesel-electric submarine in numbers, and besides, the English sailors and officers of those years were distinguished by the highest professionalism. But, as if all this was not enough, we should not forget that in the framework of the distribution of functional responsibilities between the NATO Navy, the fleet of the former "mistress of the seas" was focused on anti-submarine activities. The KVMF was to fight against Soviet submarines breaking into the Atlantic and protect communications from those who succeed.

So, on the one hand, two small aircraft carriers, carrying, among other things, anti-submarine helicopters, nine ships of the destroyer-frigate class (at the beginning of the conflict, then there was more), and on the other, one and only submarine. And what is the result? "San Luis" at least twice, and, perhaps, three times attacked the British ships. The most colorful was the episode of 1 on May, when this boat attacked the destroyer “Coventry”, which was accompanied by the frigate “Arrow”. The torpedo was defective, its control was lost, and the homing head “captured” the torpedo trap, which the frigate towed and struck it.

After that, two British frigates and three helicopters chased the San Luis for 20 hours, while the frigates maintained sonar contact with it, and the helicopters attacked with torpedoes and depth charges. Despite all this, the "San Luis" managed to survive and get out of attack.


PL type 209


Second case (May 8) - The submarine San Luis attacked an unknown target with a torpedo. The acoustics of the “San Luis” seemed to have even heard the sound of a hit, but the torpedo did not work. Perhaps it was all a mistake, and there was actually no enemy near San Luis, but there is some reason to believe that the Argentines managed to get to the atomizer Splendite (there is evidence that after this incident Splendite left the combat area and went to the UK, and there were no other ships and vessels in the San Luis attack area). However, the British did not confirm this.

And finally, the third case took place on the night of 10 on 11 in May, when San Luis attacked the frigates Alakriti and Aerrow from the distance of the entire 3 mile with a two-torpedo salvo. The torpedoes, as usual, refused, the British did not find the boat.

The second episode - Joint Task Force Exercise 06-2, held in December 2005. At which non-nuclear Swedish submarine "Gotland" first "destroyed" the US Navy nuclear submarine covering the AUG led by the aircraft carrier "Ronald Reagan", and then attacked surface ships and "sank" the aircraft carrier.

And this is not an ordinary case in the exercises of the Naval Forces of the West. In 2003, the same "Gotland" was able to prevail over American and French atomarins. The Australian “Collins” type boat and the Israeli “Dauphin” type managed to break through the USG AUG anti-submarine defense.

How did non-nuclear boats do that?


Gotland submarine


To begin with, let's pay attention to the key condition of victory in underwater combat. Obviously (at least in the exercises), the one who can find the enemy first, will come out on top, while remaining undetected. In combat conditions this may not be the end and some options for the attacked submarine are possible: it may turn out to be out of the blow.

What determines the fulfillment of the key condition? The power of the hydroacoustic complex of the boat and its low noise level must be balanced so as to allow the enemy to be detected before the enemy can do it.

All of the above is fairly obvious and probably does not require confirmation, but what is written below is the guesswork of the author, who, as already mentioned, is neither a shipbuilding engineer, nor an officer, a submariner, and works exclusively with data from the open press.

Presumably, the atomic propulsion, with all its advantages, has one serious drawback: it creates more noise than a non-nuclear boat going under electric motors. A significant role in these noises is played by the circulation pumps moving the energy carrier and other units characteristic of NPS, while it is impossible to completely turn off the reactors during a combat campaign. Accordingly, it can be assumed that of the two submarines, nuclear submarines and diesel-electric submarines, built on an equal level of technology and design thought, the diesel submarine will have less noise. This is indirectly confirmed by information about the noise of our third-generation boats, the 971 Pike-B atomic project and the 877 Paltus diesel project. With the natural noise level in 40-45 decibels, in calm the noise level of the “Pike-B” is estimated 60-70 decibels, and “Halibus” - 52-56 decibels. Here, again, it is worth mentioning that it is completely unknown who and when carried out measurements of these noises ...

At the same time, as far as can be understood from open sources, the dependence of noise and detection range is by no means linear. It means that if, say, a boat reduced noise by 5%, then its detection range is reduced not by 5%, but significantly more significantly.

As for the hydroacoustic complexes, the diesel submarine itself is not large, and it is unlikely that it can be equipped with a SAC as powerful as on atomarine (although a similar attempt was made in the USSR, but more on that below)

So, if the above assumptions are true, the success of foreign non-nuclear submarines (and our nickname "Black Hole") appeared as a result of this combination of its own noise and power SAC, which allow the diesel-electric submarines to be the first to detect submarines. And as long as such a combination remains possible, the diesel-electric submarines will remain ships, with their tactical niche, and not a “weapon for the poor.”

What can and what can not diesel submarines? By virtue of their low noise, they are almost an ideal means of dealing with an overwhelming adversary whose location is known in advance and does not change. For example, the Royal Navy in the Falklands was in this position - the carrier group was forced to maneuver in approximately the same area. And the analysis of San Luis actions shows that if the Argentines had not one but five or six boats of this type with trained crews and combat-ready torpedoes, then the British compound could well have suffered such heavy losses during their attacks that impossible.

Judging by the available data, the successful use of Australian, Swedish and Israeli non-nuclear submarines against AUG was achieved under conditions when the aircraft carrier was “tied” to a certain square and its location on the submarine was known. That is, non-nuclear submarines no one created problems with access to the enemy’s maneuvering area, and it was only a matter of checking whether the full-time defense of the AUG could withstand an attack of non-nuclear “quiet”.

Consequently, diesel-electric submarines represent a formidable danger and a strong deterrent for all who wish to operate large forces in close proximity to our shores for a long time. However, due to its design features, diesel-electric submarines have significant limitations on the speed and range of the underwater course. So, the 877 “Halibus” submarine is capable of overcoming 400 miles under water at a speed of only 3 knots: it can move faster, but only at the cost of a sharp drop in range. That is why diesel-electric submarines can be effectively used only against such an enemy, whose location is known in advance and does not change for a long time. And this imposes significant restrictions on the combat use of diesel-electric submarines.

Russian Navy. Sad look into the future. Part of 4. "Halibut" and "Lada"

Submarine type 877 under the RDP


So, for example, the role of diesel-electric submarines in the issues of anti-submarine warfare drops sharply. Of course, the diesel-electric submarine in a duel situation can destroy a nuclear submarine, but the problem is that such a situation is possible only if the diesel-electric submarine attacks a ship order that covers the nuclear submarine from under the water, or ... in general, by chance. Of course, no one bothers to unfurl the curtain of diesel-electric submarines on the paths of likely submarine submarines, but due to the relatively weak HOOK and low underwater speed, the capabilities of these boats to search are rather limited. In addition, the short range of underwater travel in combination with low speed does not allow the diesel-electric submarine to quickly move into the area where the enemy submarine was found. Or, for example, accompany the SSBN on the route of its nomination.

Thus, the diesel-electric submarine, being certainly an important and useful weapon system of the Russian Navy, still cannot solve the whole range of tasks of an underwater war.

What does our navy have today? The most numerous are already mentioned in the article of the diesel-electric submarine of the 877 “Halibus” project. To date, 15 boats of this type are listed, including five different subtypes.

The “initial” type diesel-electric submarines of the 877 type remained in the ranks of four units: B-227 “Vyborg”; B-445 "St. Nicholas the Wonderworker"; B-394 "Nurlat"; B-808 "Yaroslavl". In NATO, the boats received the designation "KILO".

The diesel-electric substations of type 877LPMB B-800 “Kaluga”, on which some novelties used in the following subseries were tested. So, for the first time in Kaluga, not a classic six-blade, but a seven-blade saber screw was used on boats of this type.

Boats type 877М, eight units: B-464 "Ust-Kamchatsk"; B-459 Vladikavkaz; B-471 Magnitogorsk; B-494 "Ust-Bolsheretsk"; B-177 "Lipetsk"; B-187 "Komsomolsk-on-Amur"; B-190 Krasnokamensk; B-345 "Mogocha". The ships received a new propeller, a modernized GAK (instead of the analogue MGC-400 "Rubicon", the MIC-400M "Rubicon-M" created on the basis of the computer) was installed, improved BIOS and control of the ship systems. 877M boats have been labeled “Improved KILO” at NATO

The project 877ECM (abbreviation means "export commercial upgraded"), in principle, is similar to 877M, but is intended for operations in tropical seas. The Russian Navy has one submarine of this subtype: the B-806 "Dmitrov". The ship was built for Libya, but in the USSR it was decided to leave one boat of the 877EKM project for themselves in order to train the crews of export boats on it.

And, finally, the 877В project - the B-871 “Alrosa”, is a boat of the 877М type, but with the replacement of a screw propulsion unit with a jet one. "Alrosa" is considered the quietest boat among all "Halibut".


Alrosa. Student, Komsomol and just beautiful ...


Most of the boats are in the active forces: only 15 are undergoing repairs from 3 ships, and perhaps only two, since it is unclear whether Dmitrov got out of repair B-806, they were going to finish it in 2017.

877 type boats have become an excellent weapon for their time. In the years of their design, an attempt was made to create a single hydroacoustic complex for nuclear and diesel submarines (SAC MGK-400 "Rubicon"). The SJC was very large, but for the promising submarines it didn’t “go,” but it turned out to be much more powerful than everything the domestic diesel-electric submarines had. As a result, according to some data, the 877 project was built “around the SAC”, which predetermined the rather large size of the “Halibus”. However, their ability to detect an underwater enemy turned out to be very high, which, combined with their low noise level, gave them the key ability of a successful diesel-electric submarine: "to see the enemy remaining invisible." In the book "Whale's Jump," there is evidence of an eyewitness - a representative of the service team S. V. Kolon:

“... I witnessed the return of the Sindhugosh submarine from a campaign in which a training encounter with the submarine of the 209 project took place, I guess that it was just to assess their capabilities. It was in the waters of the Arabian Sea. Our lieutenant, a Hindu servicing the “Knot,” who was behind the commander’s console, after this battle in joyful excitement, said to me with glitter in his eyes: “They didn’t even notice us and were sunk”.


Of course, the boats were not without flaws. The author has repeatedly come across remarks that the rather large size of the “Halibus” hampered their use in the Baltic and Black Seas. On the one hand, this is strange, but on the other hand, attention should be paid to the fact that the majority of XDUMX diesel-electric submarines in the Northern and Pacific fleets were serving. The SJC was powerful, but did not have on-board antennas, there was also no towed antenna, which is very important for the diesel-electric submarines, as when charging the batteries, the full-length SJC loses much of its capabilities due to interference, and the towed antenna is subject to them to a much lesser degree.

Certain flaws did not prevent the "Halibut" to be a formidable weapon at the end of the 20 of the 20th century. But in terms of their technological level, they correspond to the generation NPS of the 3, and today they are outdated. No matter how powerful their Rubicon is, it is, in its capabilities, inferior to Sjuk-B and Los Angeles. For the Rubikon State Joint-Stock Company MGK-400, the detection range of the submarines 16-20 km is indicated, and the surface ships 60-80 km. (again, in what conditions and at what noise is the submarine?) At the same time, it is reported that the Pike-B received the Skat-540 SAC not inferior to the American AN / BQQ-3 and AN / S / S BQQ-5, for which the detection range of the submarine is indicated (apparently in certain ideal conditions) to 6 km. On the other hand, open sources indicate that AN / BQQ-160 is able to see the “Pike-B” not further, as in 5 km, according to other data, it is not detected by them at low noise, but then the same applies to "Halibus."

It can be assumed that “Halibut”, having a weaker GAK but, probably, a lower noise level than “Improved Los Angeles” will be approximately equal to it in a duel situation. But "Halibut" will not be able to withstand on an equal footing "Virginia", since it is much quieter than the "Improved Elk" and has a more powerful HOOK. In the duel of "Halibut" and "Virginia" "to see the enemy remaining invisible" will be the American atomarina.

In addition, "Halibut" entered into operation in the period 1983-1994, and today it is from 23 to 34 years. It is not surprising that submarines of this type are currently being withdrawn from the Russian Navy, despite the general shortage of submarines in the Russian Navy. In the period of 2016-2017 g fleet left B-260 "Chita"; B-401 "Novosibirsk"; B-402 "Vologda" and, obviously, this process will continue further. In general, it should be expected that in the next decade all boats of this type will leave the system.

They should have been replaced by non-nuclear submarines of the 4 generation of the Lada 677 project.



The development of these ships began in 1987, and the designers had an extremely difficult task, because they had to create a ship that was superior to the previous generation of diesel-electric submarines in everything. Interestingly, the main differences of the new diesel-electric submarines from the boats of the previous generation strongly resemble those of the MAPL project 885 "Ash".

Of course, great attention was paid to reducing the noise of the 677 project. Here is the departure from the two-body design in favor of a single-body (although it is still more likely a half-body), and a new all-mode electric motor, special shock absorbers, designed to dampen the noises of vibroactive equipment, a new body covering. Of course, the new Lyra hydroacoustic complex, the new CBS, communication systems and so on, as well as the ability to use cruise missiles: the 877 and 877 project boats did not have such an opportunity. There were many other new products - just about the Lada-type boats, about 180 development work was carried out. There is no doubt that in case of successful implementation of the planned indicators, the fleet would receive a non-nuclear submarine capable of successfully fighting atomic 4 generation.

Alas, the desire to create a truly new non-nuclear submarine played a cruel joke with the 677 project. Even in the USSR, such a high concentration of new products threatened to seriously tighten the finishing of boats of this type, and even after the USSR was destroyed in 1991, the work on the “Lada” complicated to the extreme. A reduction in funding, coupled with an artificial "acceleration" of development work periods and a break in cooperative chains, and the general situation of the universal mess also had an effect. But it was about the design and fine-tuning of the set of components and assemblies of a new, not previously used design.

The first boat of the 1997 project “Saint Petersburg” was laid in 677, and after it, the construction of the same type of Kronstadt and Sevastopol began in 2005 and 2006. Alas, the creation of such a complex system of naval weapons as a new generation of diesel-electric submarines turned out to be too tough for Russia of the 90s. “St. Petersburg” was expectedly turned into a long-term construction project - the boat was launched into the 2004 g, but only in 2010 could the fleet be handed over to the fleet - and then only in trial operation. The newest equipment refused to work, did not show the required power, etc. The construction of the remaining two boats of this type was suspended in 2009 g, and only in 2013-2015 was it resumed under an improved project, while the Sevastopol laid down in 2006 g was rebuilt in 2015 g, i.e. later 9 (!!!) years after the start of construction with the name "Great Luke".

As a result, the Russian Navy found itself in an extremely unpleasant situation. The existing diesel-electric submarines have already served their due dates and, alas, no longer fully complied with the requirements of the war at sea, and there is nothing to replace them. As a result, a half-hearted, but absolutely right decision was made - to build the diesel-electric submarines of the 636.3 Varshavyanka project in large quantities.


Boat Project 636.3


The 636 project appeared as an improved export version of the 877ECM boat, and, in fact, is a well-modernized “Halibut”. In the 636.3 variant, the DEPL received a number of technologies developed in the process of creating the Lada, which allowed Varshavyanka to become a much more formidable weapon than the boats of the 877 / 877М project. But it should be understood that no upgrades and new technologies can put these boats on a par with 4-generation submarines. It may be worth mentioning the Varshavyanka as the “three and a half” or “3 +” generation ships, but they cannot fight on equal terms with the Sivulfs and the Virginia. Serial construction of the 636.3 project was carried out not because the boat fully complied with the requirements of the Russian Navy, but because the refusal of such construction was fraught with the fact that the Russian fleet would have been left without non-nuclear submarines. That against the background of a total reduction of the nuclear submarine fleet would have turned into a real catastrophe.

So, the fleet badly needs non-nuclear submarines of the 4 generation, and what is the situation today? At some point, it was decided that the 677 project did not at all justify the hopes placed on it and seriously considered the issue of stopping work on the Lada and developing an entirely new ship, Kalina. Works on its design were very intensive. But it was clear that the problems faced by the designers would somehow “crawl out” on the next type of boat, therefore “St. Petersburg” continued to be operated in the hope of bringing the equipment to the required conditions. 7 years have passed, but to this day, one cannot say that the “stuffing” of “St. Petersburg” works satisfactorily. If this were different, no one would have started laying new diesel-electric submarines for the Pacific Fleet at the end of July 2017 on the outdated 636.3 project.

But it seems that the “light at the end of the tunnel” still appeared, and there is reason to expect that “Kronstadt” and “Great Luke” will still reach the required parameters. First of all, this is evidenced by the fact that the deputy commander-in-chief of the Navy, V. Bursuk, announced the desire of the fleet to order the following two boats of the 677 type. It is unlikely that this will happen before the second boat of the 677 project confirms the characteristics expected from it, and in any case it is about building only two Ladas to 2025. The manufacturer says that from the moment of the decision to the delivery the fleet must pass 5 years. Taking into account the fact that Kronstadt is going to be launched in 2018 g, and transferred to the fleet in 2020 g, we can expect the entry of new boats into operation by 2025.

In general, according to domestic diesel-electric submarines, the following can be stated. At the beginning of the GPN 2011-2025, the fleet included the 18 diesel-electric submarine of the 877 "Halibut" project. It should be expected that by 2025 g they all leave the line. They will be replaced by 12 diesel-electric submarines of the 636.3 project, which, unfortunately, do not fully meet the requirements of the modern naval war and four boats of the 677 project (most likely, that St. Petersburg will remain an experienced ship and will not reach full combat capability) Thus, our non-nuclear fleet expects a small, but still declining number.

In addition, diesel-electric submarines will be redistributed to theaters. If currently from the 18 diesel-electric submarines of the 877 project on the Black and Baltic seas there were only 3 submarines (one on the Black Sea Fleet and two on the Baltic), then six of the 16 new diesel-electric submarines will serve on the Black Sea. Taking into account the need to have at least one diesel-electric submarines in the Baltic Sea (most likely there will be two) to the Northern and Pacific Fleets, in the aggregate, only 8-9 ships remain instead of 15-ti.

On the one hand, taking into account the international situation, we cannot afford to keep the Black Sea Fleet without submarine forces — we need them in the Mediterranean. But on the other hand, it turns out "trishkin caftan", when at the cost of military presence in the Mediterranean we strongly expose the North and the Far East.

The conclusion is sad - against the background of a completely inadequate number of multi-purpose submarines to cover the deployment areas of SSBNs, in the next decade, we will significantly reduce the number of submarines that can assist MAPL in carrying out this key task for the fleet. But, in addition to reducing the number of diesel-electric submarines, which we can use to cover the SSBN, we are losing as such a cover. Instead of 15 boats, we will have only 8-9 (of which six 636.3 will be included in the Pacific Fleet, and 2-3 677 submarines of the SFN project - in the SF. But if the "Halibuses" could oppose the "Los Angeles" on an equal basis, the boats of the type 636.3 is unlikely to stand up against Virginia. And the 4 generation's diesel-electric submarines will only have 2-3 things.

Thus, the existing plans for the creation of non-nuclear submarines do not at all cover the shortage of multipurpose atomarines. And due to the massive equipment of the US Navy 4-generation submarines, in addition to the quantitative gap, as a result of the disruption of the construction of the submarines of the 677 project, we also get a qualitative loss.

A small postscript.

There is one more aspect in the construction of non-nuclear submarines - apparently, until 2025 r, not a single boat with VNEU will be part of the Russian Navy. However, it should be borne in mind that in terms of air-independent power plants, there are more questions than answers for the time being.

Currently, a number of fleets are already operating the submarine with a VNEU, but information from the open press does not allow us to assess the success of the application of VNEU on submarines. To date, there are two main schemes VNEU used on the submarine:

1. Power plants with electrochemical generators.
2. Engines with external heat supply (Stirling engines).

The first type of VNEU is implemented on German submarines of the 212 type. At the same time, in open sources there are enough rumors on the topic that boats of this type turned out to be very capricious and rather noisy. On the other hand, it can be assumed that the source of these rumors were the numerous complaints of the Greek Navy about the boats delivered to them by Germany.

But it is more than likely that Greece in this case simply tried to make a “good happy bad game.” It is very likely that the Greeks, not having the means to timely pay for the German submarines, preferred to criticize the ships delivered to them in tatters, but not to confess their own insolvency.

On the other hand, of the six boats of this type in the composition of the German Navy, not one is on the move. This is an alarming signal, but what is to blame for the shortcomings and excessive capriciousness of the VNEU, or the paucity of the military budget of Germany, which has already become the talk of the town?

As for Stirling engines, there are also a lot of questions about them. Of course, there is an objective success of the Swedish submarine "Gotland" in training battles against the American and French fleets. But who was the opponent of "Gotland"? The French submarine, but with all its undoubted advantages, is the 3 generation ship. The battered American Atomarina is SSN-713 "Houston", that is, the usual "Los Angeles", not even "Improved". Would “Gotland” show the same result in a fight with “Sivulf” or “Virginia”? Question…

An interesting aspect. Our advantage in low noise, our diesel-electric submarine "Halibut" was only when using the auxiliary propulsion (thruster water cannons), which have all the boats of this type. But when driving under the main motor noise increased significantly over the entire speed range. I wonder how things are with the noise at the "Gotland" when operating Stirling engines? Could it be that Gotland attacked and succeeded using only batteries with the engines off? If so, then the utility of Stirling engines is far from as high as it seems at first glance.

In this light, the actions of the Japanese Navy are extremely interesting. Having built a large series of non-nuclear Soryu submarines with VNEU and having extensive experience in their operation, the Japanese Navy abandoned the Stirling engine in favor of lithium-ion batteries.

This type of battery is much superior to conventional diesel-electric submarines in capacity and mass-dimensional characteristics, so that at low speed, submarines with lithium-ion batteries are not too inferior in range of submarines with a VNEU. At the same time, lithium-ion batteries require significantly less time for recharging - accordingly, in the presence of a diesel engine, the diesel-electric submarines are able to “recharge” much faster, reducing the time of increased noise to a minimum. But lithium-ion batteries are an expensive pleasure. In the open press, it is stated that non-nuclear submarines with VNEU are more expensive than conventional diesel-electric submarines, but boats with lithium-ion batteries are more expensive than VNEU. So, the bmpd blog claims that:

“The contract value of the 11 submarine of the Soryu type is 64,4 billion yen (about 566 million dollars) against 51,7 billion yen (454 million dollars) on the tenth submarine of this type. Virtually all the difference in cost in the form of 112 million will be the cost of lithium-ion batteries and the corresponding electrical system. "


And if the Japanese Navy, having experience in operating Stirling engines, is still switching to more expensive lithium-ion batteries - does this mean that lithium-ion batteries turned out to be a better choice than Stirling engines? It remains to recall the words of the former commander of the submarine forces of the Japanese fleet, Retired Vice Admiral Masao Kobayashi. In his opinion, the use of lithium-ion batteries:

"... should dramatically change the actions of non-nuclear submarines."


So, in the Russian Federation today and which year work on the VNEU is underway. But, despite the constant announcements of “things and now there” - not a single operating VNEU has yet been demonstrated. But, on the other hand, in terms of lithium-ion batteries, we have advanced far enough, Rubin Central Design Bureau informed 2014 g in December of the completion of their tests, and according to some information, two new submarines of the 677 project are supposed to be built with lithium-ion batteries batteries. Interestingly, if for “Paltus” the range of the underwater stroke was indicated in 400 miles on 3 nodes, and for the 677 project it was already 650 miles, then the use of lithium-ion batteries will increase this figure at least 1,4 times (the words of the former general director “ Rubin "A. Dyachkova) up to 910 miles, which is 2,27 times more than the “Halibus”. At the same time, A.Dyachkov in 2014 g said that for the time being we use the potential capabilities of these batteries only on 35-40%, i.e. it is possible that the new “Lada” will have even more impressive opportunities for underwater travel.


"St. Petersburg", project 677


By virtue of the above, the fact that work on the VNEU is clearly not set in the Russian Federation does not threaten our non-nuclear submarines with some kind of catastrophe and doom to be dragged along by the rest of the world's fleets. Much more important for the domestic submarine fleet are not at all the number of “Caliber” and not VNEU, but such things as:

1. Effective anti-submarine torpedo armament.

2. Pitfalls-imitators, forcing enemy detection and destruction "to be distracted" to a false target. Such units were in service with the diesel-electric submarines of the 877 type, but they could only be taken in exchange for part of the munition and had very limited capabilities.

3. Active anti-torpedo systems. To date, small-sized torpedoes "Package-NK" are at least one of the best means of dealing with attacking torpedoes, but there is no information about installing them on the submarine.

4. Means of electronic warfare that can interfere with a sonar buoy and its carrier - an airplane or a helicopter.

5. SAMs that can effectively counteract the enemy antisubmarine aviation.

Are there any work in these areas today? For today it is known only about the progress in the part of torpedo weapons: new torpedoes “Physicist” and “Case” were adopted. The author does not have the data to compare these torpedoes with the latest imported models, but, in any case, they will expand the capabilities of our submarines. As for everything else, the author in the open press did not meet any information on R & D on the issues voiced above. That, however, does not mean that such work is not being conducted.

To be continued ...

Previous articles of the cycle:
Russian Navy. Sad look into the future
Russian Navy. A sad look to the future (part of 2)
Russian Navy. Sad look into the future. Part of 3. "Ash" and "Husky"
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  1. Titsen
    Titsen 12 January 2018 07: 13
    +1
    Specialists: Where are you?

    Why are you silent?

    Sofa scribblers challenged!
    1. Alber
      Alber 12 January 2018 08: 02
      11
      Quote: Titsen
      Specialists: Where are you?

      Why are you silent?

      Sofa scribblers challenged!

      there is practically no industry in Russia. what is the use of specialists
      1. Gray-haired
        Gray-haired 12 January 2018 09: 59
        +3
        there is practically no industry in Russia. Spanked facts in the studio!
        1. Conductor
          Conductor 15 January 2018 13: 02
          +2
          VGTZ) tractor plant Volgograd, KZK, Altrak, KKZTM, and so on, what is more?
      2. bmv04636
        bmv04636 12 January 2018 18: 55
        0
        I don’t agree with you today only from the Votkinsk plant, our guys work and on the New Year holidays the factory also worked there.
        1. Conductor
          Conductor 15 January 2018 13: 03
          0
          And vigorously the bomb does not tolerate penetration.
        2. m.cempbell
          m.cempbell 15 January 2018 13: 43
          +3
          Dear bmv04636, can you tell us in more detail in what condition the plant is? And then in the "cinema" of the channel, the star was almost shown sterile production, but recently it was in the city itself - sorry, of course, but the impression was that the city was one big dump. In no case do not want to offend its inhabitants, maybe it was driving "in the wrong blocks", but still ...
    2. Chertt
      Chertt 12 January 2018 20: 45
      +7
      It would seem that the facts and figures are not the most rosy, but there is no "sad look", On the contrary, there is a feeling of a heavy, slow but moving forward ....
  2. corporal
    corporal 12 January 2018 07: 21
    +2
    The author mentioned the Swedes, Greeks and Japanese, but what about the Israelis? EMNIP they have German boats also with VNEU. And like complaints were not heard (unless they secret of course).
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      12 January 2018 08: 09
      14
      According to the Israelis - if there were any complaints, then I don’t know about this. But taking into account the fact that the Germans often give them equipment at half price, I think if there were problems, then they solved them quietly
    2. Conductor
      Conductor 15 January 2018 13: 07
      +1
      They are so secret that after the death of Dakar Yu in 1967 (sort of) he did not hear about the Israeli submarine fleet.
  3. Soho
    Soho 12 January 2018 07: 32
    +7
    and besides this, the English sailors and officers of those years were distinguished by the highest professionalism

    so where there ... the British, despite the overwhelming advantage, in the 1982 war were still very, very lucky.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      12 January 2018 08: 10
      +4
      Well, the overwhelming advantage they only had in ships, but in airplanes - in Argentina
      1. avt
        avt 12 January 2018 10: 37
        +5
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Well, the overwhelming advantage they only had in ships, but in airplanes - in Argentina

        And what's the point in the absence of a runway at the Falklands, dead bombs and the complete absence of targeting airplanes?
        . And an analysis of the actions of “San Luis” shows that if the Argentines had not one, but five or six boats of this type with trained crews and combat torpedoes, then during their attacks the British formation could well have suffered such heavy losses that the continuation of the operation would become impossible.
        wassat And who then would dance tango if they could get the crews on them? By the way, they shaved like the old, Balao banged in the south near the South Georgia islands. They ran aground and shot .... or the tango dancers themselves sat down, now I don’t remember
        And if the Japanese Navy, having experience in operating Stirling engines, nevertheless switches to more expensive lithium-ion batteries, does this mean that lithium-ion batteries turned out to be a better choice than Stirling engines?
        Then we know horseradish, they know how to keep silent.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          12 January 2018 12: 08
          +6
          Quote: avt
          They incidentally shaved like the old ,, Balao "banged in the South near the islands of South Georgia seems

          So I write
          Strictly speaking, the Argentines also used the Santa Fe, but the boat was in such a terrifying technical condition that it could barely go under the periscope, so that its quick death was obviously predetermined and in no way connected with the type of its power plant

          This is the very Balao and it was :)))
    2. Conductor
      Conductor 15 January 2018 13: 08
      0
      Who is lucky and that the cock will blow. Conkerer was lucky. Yes, even with the old MK.
      1. Conductor
        Conductor 15 January 2018 13: 10
        0
        How did the SUAO work there, not the Dreira table
        1. Conductor
          Conductor 15 January 2018 13: 12
          0
          Although why am I, Dreyer’s table on the square wasn’t. Sorry.
  4. Soho
    Soho 12 January 2018 08: 18
    +7
    Presumably atomic mover

    probably the author had in mind the nuclear power plant of the submarine. Since the "mover" is already a system that realizes the energy of the nuclear power system in the movement of the submarine by means of screws, axial pumps (in the common people of water cannons)
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      12 January 2018 08: 36
      +6
      Quote: Soho
      probably the author had in mind the nuclear power plant of the submarine.

      Excuse me, you are absolutely right. Used the term for other purposes
  5. Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 12 January 2018 08: 25
    +1
    It seems that now two fleets are being built in parallel with diesel-electric submarines and nuclear submarines. Russian and Chinese. The rest of the submarine operators (mattresses, limes and French) refused DEPL.

    Given this fact, the author’s layouts for a mixed submarine fleet are not entirely convincing. The standard version - industry lobbying (at best) fits at least as well.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      12 January 2018 08: 35
      +4
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      steel submarine operators (mattresses, limes and French) refused from diesel-electric submarines.

      The Japanese abandoned VNEU in favor of DEPL
    2. m.cempbell
      m.cempbell 12 January 2018 08: 52
      +2
      Mattresses seem to have announced the consideration of the possibility of building diesel-electric submarines
    3. Rakovor
      Rakovor 12 January 2018 09: 06
      +4
      The author above spoke about NATO cooperation. DPL there for all Germany is building. For example, there are practically no trawling forces in the US Navy, and what, can we not build minesweepers now?
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 12 January 2018 10: 53
        0
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The Japanese abandoned VNEU in favor of DEPL

        You are right, carelessly said. We are talking about any non-nuclear submarines.
        Quote: Rakovor
        Mattresses seem to have announced the consideration of the possibility of building diesel-electric submarines

        Have you considered?
        Quote: Rakovor
        DPL there for all Germany is building.

        Immediately visible specialist. The submarine is also building France, but only for export. Mattresses were taken to drive the Swedish. Moreover, in the composition of these three fleets (with nuclear submarines), non-nuclear submarines are now absent, it seems.
        1. Rakovor
          Rakovor 12 January 2018 11: 03
          +1
          No need to find fault with the details, if you are an intelligent person, you should have caught my thought. And as for the "specialist", right now everyone is like that, the main thing is to be able to use Google, I was just too lazy.
        2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          12 January 2018 12: 10
          +8
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          You are right, carelessly said. We are talking about any non-nuclear submarines.

          So it all depends on the strategy. If it is necessary to defend the superior surface forces of the fleet near its own shores - it makes sense to build a diesel-electric submarine. And the USA, France, England do you need it :)))
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 12 January 2018 15: 39
            0
            Quote: Rakovor
            they should have caught my thought.

            No.
            Your idea, as I understand it, is either that the Germans are building non-nuclear submarines for the States, or that German submarines are included in the squadrons, if necessary. Neither this nor the NJA is true. Non-nuclear submarines are now banned by three out of five countries that can make nuclear submarines. And France recently.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            So everything depends on the strategy

            Well, for a layman (me) it looks reasonable. Since Kilo cannot even catch up with transport, the only tactic for them is ambush. Catch Virginia on live bait - SSBN - in the bastion looks reasonable.
            Another thing is that this rationality is based on assessments of visibility taken by vanging and "by analogy," but there is nothing to be done.
          2. Conductor
            Conductor 15 January 2018 13: 17
            0
            Andrei Yu and the Russian Federation it is necessary to defend? in the sense of DEPL.
    4. The Siberian barber
      The Siberian barber 12 January 2018 14: 51
      +4
      I agree with Andrew! The need for a DPL is determined by the strategy. To protect the near seas, that’s it! Nuclear submarines, still need space for more, and their tasks are larger) In current realities, diesel engines are a very weighty argument, because the pace of the construction of the fleet is extremely low. 667 ave. Learned to build the same, quickly enough. The fleet must be saturated until there are "horns and legs"
      What to use, Vneu or lithium-ion batteries? Here, only those who have complete information on the promotion of these topics will objectively say. In my opinion, where they have moved further, then riveting, and not waiting for the child prodigy. In the meantime, let them sing "Varshavyanka"
  6. m.cempbell
    m.cempbell 12 January 2018 09: 05
    +1
    So, for example, the role of diesel-electric submarines in the issues of anti-submarine warfare drops sharply. Of course, the diesel-electric submarine in a duel situation can destroy a nuclear submarine, but the problem is that such a situation is possible only if the diesel-electric submarine attacks a ship order that covers the nuclear submarine from under the water, or ... in general, by chance. Of course, no one bothers to unfurl the curtain of diesel-electric submarines on the paths of likely submarine submarines, but due to the relatively weak HOOK and low underwater speed, the capabilities of these boats to search are rather limited. In addition, the short range of underwater travel in combination with low speed does not allow the diesel-electric submarine to quickly move into the area where the enemy submarine was found. Or, for example, accompany the SSBN on the route of its nomination.

    Never, at least in our strategy, have I heard that DEPL was assigned the function of anti-submarine warfare. DEPLs have been a purely offensive weapon all their lives. As for the attack of the enemy AUG, then never (again it is with regards to our Navy) I never heard that the tactics of attacking a single diesel-electric submarine against an entire AUG was considered. From what I understand, such an attack requires, in addition to surface ships, coastal complexes and aircraft, at least 3 diesel-electric submarines. And the fact that they were in advance on the path of its movement in the most secretive mode.
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 12 January 2018 12: 51
      +5
      Quote: m.cempbell
      Never, at least in our strategy, have I heard

      You are revered and an opinion is created that you rented a room in the Bolshoi Kozlovsky ..
      Quote: m.cempbell
      I didn’t hear that the DEPL was assigned the function of anti-submarine warfare.

      And what did the 182 submarine team do then?
      Quote: m.cempbell
      I have not heard that the tactics of attacking a single diesel-electric submarine on a whole AUG

      laughing Have you heard anything about Valentin Kozlov?
      1. m.cempbell
        m.cempbell 12 January 2018 13: 46
        +2
        And what did the 182 submarine team do then?

        I am not a submariner, and I have nothing to do with the fleet as a whole, so I can only say about Google that I’ve written about the 182th brigade. But still, I think, the most important areas were patrolled by the same Pikes, with a more powerful hull. And about DEPL, I meant that they were not considered as hunters.
        Have you heard anything about Valentin Kozlov?

        I heard. Firstly, he stumbled upon Des Moines, in fact, by accident. They were not the goal of the campaign. And in general, "nobody specifically" was. Secondly - the US Obk seems to have spotted them all the same. And if they really attacked the order, if they would have sank Des Moines, they themselves would inevitably be sunk. Thirdly, it was in the 59th. It is not necessary to compare the chance encounter of our submarines with their squad then, and the conscious attack of a single diesel-electric submarine against modern AUG now.
        Do not find my tone harsh, I write what I know myself, or I read it in an appropriate literature. hi
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          12 January 2018 13: 54
          +3
          In fact, the thing is this - I’m already considering an article about one problematic aspect of our defense - covering the SSBN patrol areas. And the fragment that you are quoting is connected not with the tactics of diesel submarines of the USSR Navy, but with the very possibility of diesel submarines to detect and destroy enemy nuclear submarines. However, I come to the conclusion that these opportunities are relatively small.
          Quote: m.cempbell
          As for the attack of the enemy AUG, then never (again with regards to our Navy) I never heard that the tactics of attacking a single diesel-electric submarine against an entire AUG

          The Americans considered, and came to the conclusion that a single diesel-electric submarine could successfully attack AUG
          1. m.cempbell
            m.cempbell 12 January 2018 14: 25
            +1
            Andrey, to me, as an ignorant person, your cycle is very useful and liked. Thanks for the work. It was only with him that I began to take a more detailed interest in the submarine fleet. As for the capabilities of diesel-electric submarines to detect and destroy enemy nuclear submarines, I think that they were not created for this at all. Agree in a duel with Virginia, or even with Ohio, they have little chance. To detect the latter, other systems should be created at all on our shores. A diesel-electric submarine is an excellent means of destroying enemy destroyers, cruisers and coastal infrastructure of naval bases.
          2. jjj
            jjj 12 January 2018 14: 27
            0
            But he will not sink the main ship. If only a torpedo with SBC.
            Ours considered: from a full salvo of a single boat of 949A Ave., only two missiles would hit the target. Although this is enough.
          3. Serg65
            Serg65 12 January 2018 14: 56
            +5
            hi Andrey, welcome!
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            In doing so, I conclude that these opportunities are relatively small

            Being in an ambush, covering the exits-entrances to the naval base, the diesel submarines quite successfully fulfill the anti-submarine function, for example, the actions of Halibut 182 submarine brigade.
            Covering the battery charging with surface ships, ships, or in shallow water, the diesel electric submarine very well "fools" the adversary, which is exemplified by the actions of the 153th brigade of the KChF submarine.
            The article is interesting, we will wait to continue ... good
            With the past you drinks
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              12 January 2018 15: 44
              +1
              And good evening to you! hi drinks
              Quote: Serg65
              With the past you

              And you too, but at the same time - with the upcoming old new year :)))
              Quote: Serg65
              Being in an ambush, covering the exits-entrances to the naval base, the diesel submarines quite successfully fulfill the anti-submarine function

              I'll know, thanks!
            2. ycuce234-san
              ycuce234-san 23 December 2018 16: 18
              0
              In general, when protecting the infrastructure, the boat can be secretly recharged from an underwater cable from the shore, which prolongs the period of its stay outside the base and the smaller the crew and the more comfortable it is, the greater the extension of the period. Now they can lay cables on the bottom and it is necessary to equip the boat itself with an automatic connection to such "sockets" scattered over the sea. In addition, the boat can be supplemented with underwater robotics.
        2. Serg65
          Serg65 12 January 2018 14: 41
          +8
          Quote: m.cempbell
          I write what I know myself, or read in the appropriate literature

          If you are interested in this, then you probably noticed that there’s at least a lot of information about the actions of the Premier League, but almost nothing about the Premier League! And if there is, then it belongs to the 60-70-th years of the 20 century! In the 72 meter film, there is an episode of the emergence of our DPEL surrounded by an AUG order, such a story was, in fact, the Black Sea Halibut surfaced 500 meters from the American aircraft carrier. In the famous Kursk campaign to the shores of Yugoslavia, NATO carried out the task of diverting anti-submarine forces Baltic Halibut, while the NATO did not notice our boat for a long time and the Baltic had to brazenly identify themselves. DPS of the 182-th brigade patrolled the Avacha Gulf and the Kuril Straits preventing the penetration of Americans into the patrol zone of our SSBNs, and Pike cover the strategists already in the patrol area.
          Quote: m.cempbell
          It is not necessary to compare the chance encounter of our submarines with their squad then, and the conscious attack of a single diesel-electric submarine against modern AUG now.

          Being in combat service in the Mediterranean Sea, the Black Sea and Baltic submarine combat missions repeatedly attacked NATO aircraft carriers repeatedly and were often not discovered.
          Good luck to you hi
  7. Conductor
    Conductor 12 January 2018 09: 07
    0
    Well, they somehow forgot that DEPL is not noisier than a thundercloud, Andrei Respect.
  8. Scaffold
    Scaffold 12 January 2018 09: 52
    +1
    I admire the commander of the San Luis boat. It was necessary to be a very courageous and honest man in order to ascribe to himself only two attacks, in which everything went like in a book, the British did not find the boat, but at the last moment the torpedoes did not explode by accident. Could I draw five and ten like that, who would be shy? winked
    1. Alex_59
      Alex_59 12 January 2018 10: 51
      10
      Quote: Scaffold
      It was necessary to be a very courageous and honest man in order to ascribe to himself only two attacks, in which everything went like in a book, the British did not find the boat, but at the last moment the torpedoes did not explode by accident.

      A bold statement based mainly on the fact that torpedoes that have not exploded cannot be verified. If in that conflict it was impossible, in the same way, to check unexploded bombs and missiles - the entire Argentine army could be written in cowards. But the British picked out a bunch of bombs and missiles from their boats - all with fuses that did not work. What kind of makes you think and make the assumption that with the torpedoes there could be something similar.
      Here is more likely. One must be very courageous to ammunition from NATO countries. For some reason, they do not explode when used against these countries. Mystic.
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 13 January 2018 10: 04
        +2
        "For some reason, they do not explode when used against these countries. Mysticism." ////

        There is no mysticism. Fuses need to be tuned and torpedoes and bombs regularly checked during exercises. Then there will be no unpleasant surprises in the war.
  9. Soho
    Soho 12 January 2018 10: 25
    +1
    There was also no towed antenna, which is very important for diesel-electric submarines, since when charging the batteries, the standard HAK loses much in capabilities due to interference, and the towed antenna is subject to them to a much lesser extent.

    The advantage of GPAA is not only (and not much) in reducing the effect of submarine noise on the GAS performance, but in the fact that long antennas significantly improve the directivity characteristics compared to flat antennas. Roughly it’s like in aviation with a slit switch to AFAR))
  10. cobalt
    cobalt 12 January 2018 10: 33
    +1
    Thank you very interesting review, especially regarding the operation of the extra-economic institution.
  11. CentDo
    CentDo 12 January 2018 11: 48
    0
    of two submarines, nuclear submarines and diesel-electric submarines, built at the same level of technology and design, the diesel submarine will have less noise

    Is there a typo about a diesel submarine, or am I misunderstanding something?
    Thank you for the article.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      12 January 2018 12: 05
      +2
      Quote: CentDo
      About diesel submarine typo

      Of course
  12. Scaffold
    Scaffold 12 January 2018 12: 53
    0
    Imagined a foreign military specialist introducing the words “Physicist” and “Case” into an online translator ... wassat
  13. Aaleks1974
    Aaleks1974 12 January 2018 13: 08
    +4
    And what's the point in the absence of a runway at the Falklands, dead bombs and the complete absence of targeting airplanes? [Quote].
    When I started reading about the Falklands in my time, I had the feeling that I was reading about the Russo-Japanese War, the Argentines, in principle, the fellows fired a lot of torpedoes, missiles, dropped bombs (and did hit), but it feels like they are training judging by the lack of explosions, they fought with dummies, it turned out like we did then: there is a "hole" - no sense. Interestingly, and then Exocetate, did not check for the presence of bookmarks? Or was everything attributed to playful hands, hot southern guys who do not know how to store and use ammunition?
    1. Scaffold
      Scaffold 12 January 2018 13: 27
      +2
      Exosets can still be checked for bookmarks, but with free-falling bombs it somehow fails at all. Secondly, the Arjs seem to have spent all the "Exosets" during the war, no?
      1. albert
        albert 12 January 2018 17: 30
        +1
        All 5 spent. According to statistics, half of the American-made bombs used by the Argentines simply did not explode.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 12 January 2018 13: 37
      +3
      Quote: Aaleks1974
      Interestingly, and then Exocetate, did not check for the presence of bookmarks? Or was everything attributed to playful hands, hot southern guys who do not know how to store and use ammunition?

      Judging by the Stark incident, the Exocet had problems with detonators in 1987. It seems to me that the French put on anti-ship missiles Brink's pipe. laughing
  14. ydjin
    ydjin 12 January 2018 14: 34
    +3
    Andrey from Chelyabinsk, I always read your articles with pleasure, thanks! But what confused me about lithium-ion batteries for diesel-electric submarines !? Everyone knows cases where these batteries are dangerous, when shorted or damaged, they give a huge release of thermal energy and toxic gases. When my motorola phone exploded with a comparatively small Ii-Ion 720 MiAH battery, a blanket was blazed, then I swiped everything to the floor, the battery burned linoleum in two places and a huge amount of toxic smoke was released. I just kicked her from place to place so that there would be no fire. And now imagine DEPL, in the event of a short circuit taking into account the capacity of its batteries, this submarine will simply become a local armageddon!
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      12 January 2018 15: 46
      +4
      Quote: ydjin
      But what confused me about lithium-ion batteries for diesel-electric submarines !?

      I agree with you. But here's the thing - the very same VNEU is also very unsafe, especially electrochemical generators. Apparently, it is assumed that such batteries will be damaged if the boat does not already live like that
      1. Lexus
        Lexus 12 January 2018 19: 15
        +4
        Andrei hi thanks for the continuation! At first, I wanted to “get excited” about the non-mentioned French VNEU MESMA, but changed my mind, because they are really only operated on modernized Pakistani Agostakh-90B so far.
        But here's the thing - the very same VNEU is also very unsafe, especially electrochemical generators.

        For the operation of modern VNEU (except ECG), it is necessary to have oxygen reserves on board. I remember the Germans at the end of the war and ours in the early 50s experimented with the so-called "Walter’s turbines." Bottom line - the Germans refused in favor of increasing battery groups on the XXI project submarine, which increased the range of underwater travel to 400-700 miles (according to sources, the data vary widely) at creeping speeds; ours, having taken a sorrow with the 617th project and the "lighters" of the A-615 project (with submarine diesels), began to intensively develop submarines.
        The Japanese, apparently, decided to develop the German experience, all the more it is expected that in the near future the cost of lithium-ion batteries will significantly decrease, along with an increase in capacitive characteristics.
        Another promising area is the so-called silicate reactors. Compared to traditional nuclear power plants, they have lower efficiency and power characteristics, but they do not require massive biological protection, can be placed on small submarines and are quite sufficient to ensure the secrecy of patrolling adjacent waters at speeds of up to 5-8 knots. Plus - you can switch to full electric movement. Obviously more profitable than Stirling.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          12 January 2018 19: 56
          +1
          Greetings! hi
          Quote: lexus
          At first, I wanted to “get excited” about the not mentioned French VNEU MESMA

          I believe that this information can neither dispel some doubts about VNEU nor confirm them.
          Quote: lexus
          The Japanese, apparently, decided to develop the German experience

          In the LIB part, of course. And, apparently, they have reason for this
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 12 January 2018 16: 38
      +2
      Quote: ydjin
      And now imagine DEPL, in the event of a short circuit taking into account the capacity of its batteries, this submarine will simply become a local armageddon!

      It is unlikely that an Ii-Ion battery in a rugged case will be more dangerous than hydrogen peroxide or, even worse - liquid oxygen tanks. But even such a perversion has been built and exploited in series.
  15. Korax71
    Korax71 12 January 2018 16: 08
    +1
    Thanks to the author !!!! the article is excellent, like the whole series. I will wait for the continuation. Regards hi
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      12 January 2018 17: 24
      +2
      Always welcome, come again! hi
  16. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 12 January 2018 16: 44
    0
    https://vpk.name/news/109348_est_li_v_rossii_sovr
    emennoe_gidroakusticheskoe_vooruzhenie.html We read seven articles and no longer listen to the cry of amateurs. We read carefully with a pencil in our hands ... laughing tongue wassat bully
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      12 January 2018 17: 01
      +5
      Quote: Dzafdet
      We read seven articles and no longer listen to the cry of amateurs

      One question. Did you read them yourself? :)))) With a pencil in your hands? :)))) Or did you jump diagonally?
    2. Terran
      Terran 13 January 2018 11: 45
      +1
      Thanks to Andrey for a very interesting series of articles.
      Thanks Dzafdet for the link to very interesting information.
  17. Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 12 January 2018 18: 29
    0
    Dogs are really needed, and more would be in quantity ... according to the stirling engines, many say nothing about it, all this stirling bullshit, its simple name is a simple piston like a Lada but more
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      12 January 2018 19: 07
      +3
      Quote: vladimir1155
      bullshit all this stirling, its sonorous name is a simple piston like a Lada but more

      Do you understand that the Lada engine is an internal combustion engine, and the stirling is an external one? :))) And what, for a second, do they have a difference in design a little more than a fundamental one? :)))
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 12 January 2018 19: 56
        0
        nonsense, an internal combustion engine (piston or gas turbine engine), external combustion (a steam locomotive or a steam engine) is one thing, and the stirling engine is the third, essentially a dummy mockery of the Carnot cycle, a bright rag for Aboriginal people, an image of a vampire for laymen, a hook for profane
  18. poplar in Kiev
    poplar in Kiev 12 January 2018 19: 04
    -2
    Article-scream of alarmists. Tired of reading from the first part. Everything is lost .... Everything is bad ..... we end .....
    The author on the guillotine ...
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      12 January 2018 19: 54
      +6
      Quote: poplar in Kiev
      Tired of reading from the first part.

      Nevertheless, we comment on the fourth :)))))
    2. Rushnairfors
      Rushnairfors 12 January 2018 20: 06
      +4
      Poplar to Kiev so maybe you will please us ??? Light up, so to speak, the REAL state of the Russian Navy, its prospects, so that we all finally breathe calmly that we have everything super and all these 67 burks, 22 ticonderosa, 16 Virginia and other things like that, seeds for us?
      1. Rushnairfors
        Rushnairfors 12 January 2018 20: 08
        +4
        Thanks Andrew for the article. I read in one breath. Will you write about naval aviation?
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          12 January 2018 21: 11
          +3
          Good evening, dear Rashnairfors!
          Generally speaking, it’s absolutely necessary, but for this I’ll have to coolly find the sources, since I don’t understand too well what is happening there. I at one time was extremely shocked by the withdrawal of naval fighter and missile-carrying aircraft from the fleet and its transfer to the Air Force, or, more precisely, the airborne forces (the whole history of conflicts at sea indicates that only specially trained crews can fight over the sea), but on the other hand, by virtue of some reasons, but was this the only way out at that time? Now it seems that everything is somehow slowly returning to normal, at least the Su-30 is transferred to the naval aviation, but as I understand it, they squeezed the Tu-22 :)))) And how and what they are being prepared for in the VKS - no idea. In general, there are more questions for me than answers.
          And anti-submarine aircraft? Here the devil himself will break his leg, but apart from the modernization of the IL-38, I do not see anything on the horizon, and there are few of them corny. What about intelligence?
          In general, it will be more difficult for me, because I somehow understand the ships, but in the current state of naval aviation it’s not too
          1. Sergei1982
            Sergei1982 13 January 2018 09: 15
            0
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Here the devil himself will break his leg, but apart from the modernization of the IL-38, I can’t see anything on the horizon, and there are few of them corny.

            Large authorities said that a PLO aircraft is being created on the basis of the Il-114.
      2. locos
        locos 12 January 2018 21: 13
        +7
        It seems to me that this section is the only one left from the good old Military Review. And Poplar to Kiev, this is from the commentators of the new VO. And there are more of them. News, Opinions and Analytics are of interest. To expose and Prevent)) Well, at least on the site, there were people like Andrei. Thanks for the interesting articles.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          12 January 2018 21: 51
          +6
          Thanks for the kind words!
          Quote: Locos
          Well, at least on the site, there were people like Andrey

          There are not so few of us :))) 85 thousand people looked at the previous article, at least 102 readers (who put the plus sign), it seemed interesting :)
          Quote: Locos
          And Poplar to Kiev

          So here the nickname speaks for itself. This is what you need to be to offer Topol - in Kiev?
    3. Korax71
      Korax71 13 January 2018 01: 53
      0
      I don’t know where you saw the panic in the article? Everything seems to be the case. And if the author doesn’t try to throw his caps at anyone, it’s just a plus for him. I don’t understand why this attitude is, it’s a pretty solid and professional analysis. they don’t spoil the pictures. can you have any difficulties with the perception of what was written?
  19. doktorkurgan
    doktorkurgan 12 January 2018 21: 22
    +2
    Regarding VNEU - we developed VNEU on the so-called "fuel cells" - ECG based on an oxygen / hydrogen pair, moreover, they learned to store hydrogen not in a liquefied form, but in the form of lithium hydrate, EMNIP. An analogue abroad is the ECG of German submarines of type 212. The installation was called Crystal-20, and it was developed for small submarines of the Piranha type. For "Amurs" they offered the Crystal-27 ECG - but in fact the work with him came out in zilch, and they refused it in the latest open information.
  20. doktorkurgan
    doktorkurgan 12 January 2018 21: 50
    +3
    Regarding batteries and increasing autonomy of diesel-electric submarines. I recalled such an episode related to the development of the DPL pr. 651 - carriers of the P-6 anti-ship missiles and the P-5 missiles.
    Initially, the project was developed for silver-zinc batteries (cheap technical silver was supplied from China) - in this case, autonomy increased very seriously, but there was a XX congress with all the consequences - and we disagreed with Mao. The main submarine received the battery, the rest were equipped with ordinary, lead ones.
    In the future, the idea arose of equipping such submarines with an autonomous nuclear power plant - which they did, and even even tested in 1985 - Project 651-E Nerka, VAU-6 installation. It was placed in an airtight container outside a durable case.

    If you are interested in the details - http://rusdarpa.ru/?p=331
    PS: on domestic developments of VNEU, a good article here was: http://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/786440.html
    1. common man
      common man 13 January 2018 12: 22
      +2
      It seems to me that the idea of ​​using installations such as VAU-6 is very promising. A nuclear reactor with natural circulation in terms of noise will not yield to a DEU. Only the boat needs to be designed for it, and not adapted to existing ones. Put inside the case. Low power? Put two. WOW function - charging batteries. The boat has a full electric ship. From batteries. Not always, she goes at full speed. At low and zero strokes, the batteries are recharged. Remove diesel, leave only auxiliary, small. The free space will occupy the nuclear power plant. In the end, existing VNEU also have a very small capacity. And in a nuclear reactor, at least autonomy is incomparably higher.
      1. doktorkurgan
        doktorkurgan 13 January 2018 13: 27
        +1
        If placed inside the case - biological protection is needed, this complicates the design; with an external arrangement, the role of biological protection was played by a strong casing and surrounding water (which, as I understand it, was partly responsible for cooling the reactor).
        The whole cymes of the auxiliary nuclear power plant was precisely that it could be put on serial submarines without any special alterations.
        1. common man
          common man 13 January 2018 14: 12
          +1
          Quote: doktorkurgan
          If placed inside the case - biological protection is needed, this complicates the design; with an external arrangement, the role of biological protection was played by a strong casing and surrounding water (which, as I understand it, was partly responsible for cooling the reactor).

          May be. Specialists know better. Although they wrote that the external arrangement worsens the hydrodynamics of the case and increases the noise level. And there were questions on ecology. Biological protection is not such a complex design. Only the weight and place are extra. But I think this is not so critical. The main boat should be designed for the reactor, and not the reactor should be adapted to existing boats.
  21. Northern warrior
    Northern warrior 12 January 2018 23: 14
    +1
    I would not want to serve on a submarine with Li-ion batteries on board. Damage to a charged battery is guaranteed to result in a severe fire, given the highest chemical activity of lithium. Conventional lead-acid batteries, of course, can also cause the death of the boat due to the release of extremely explosive hydrogen when recharging, but modern systems for monitoring the composition of the air in the compartments minimize this danger.
  22. kamski
    kamski 13 January 2018 00: 10
    +1
    no need to be an expert to understand in a country where there is no industry, science has been destroyed. On what will the fleet revive ??? only loud projection type DOES NOT HAVE ANALOGUES ...
    1. Northern warrior
      Northern warrior 13 January 2018 11: 08
      0
      A country without industry could not have created the Su-57, the Armata platform and the 4th generation nuclear submarine. There are problems, I do not argue, but there is no need to breed a panic. Our security guarantee is the Strategic Missile Forces, and everything is very good there ...
  23. Eflintuk
    Eflintuk 13 January 2018 12: 37
    0
    Two 877 Kaluga and Vladikavkaz were modernized on Zvezdochka (installed MGK-400m, new NK, communication complex, BIUS) i.e. The same thing happened with 636 - but it seems like the experiment with modernization ended, for some reason it is not clear (although the whole logic of developing funds for our MO + MIC is very difficult to understand). In essence, diesel-electric submarines without anaerobic installations were and will remain “diving” that you don’t do there with them, and therefore, at a time when raising the scope is inevitable destruction, they have the right place to dive somewhere on the Baltic Sea and in other warm seas - frolic surrounded by their own kind.
  24. lazy
    lazy 16 January 2018 06: 38
    0
    interesting article. a little off topic about the fact that the Argentines had unexploded bombs and missiles, I read, so they also have unexploded torpedoes, what was wrong with their ammunition?